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telluride
07-11-2009, 06:14 PM
Let the dramatic posting begin!

Cutler takes too many risks on the field?
Posted by Aaron Wilson on July 11, 2009 8:35 PM

Perhaps no young Pro Bowl quarterback has drawn as much criticism as Chicago Bears newcomer Jay Cutler.

Usually, the topic at hand is Cutler's messy breakup from the Denver Broncos.

In this case, though, Cutler is under scrutiny for his tendency to take risks on the field.

After watching tapes and performing a statistical analysis of Cutler's performance over the past three years, KC Joyner of ESPN.com, per Brad Biggs of the Chicago Sun-Times, has drawn some very negative conclusions about the former Vanderbilt star.

"I've said it many times and I'll say it again, Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman,'' Joyner writes. "He'll make just as many crazy passes but won't suffer the Grossman fate because Chicago's fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman. . . .

"Whenever I say Cutler will remind Bears fans of Grossman, they get all up in arms. All Grossman did was take Chicago to their first Super Bowl in years and the Bears fans couldn't run him out of the starting spot quick enough. They'll win with Cutler, but, man, will they grit their teeth when he blows a game or two with his over-the-top risk taking."

Wow.

According to Joyner, Cutler averages one interception or near-interception out of every 20 throws.

Cutler has a 17-20 all-time record as a starter.

He has also passed for 9,024 career yards, 54 touchdowns and 37 interceptions for a cumulative 87.1 quarterback rating.

This from PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/11/cutler-takes-too-many-risks-on-the-field/). The articles quoted are here (http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/07/21_days_to_camp_cutlers_risk_t.html) and here (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/27363). Also, please don't shoot the messenger.

Popps
07-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Widows in 5......4......3.....2...

Broncos dude
07-11-2009, 06:24 PM
Enough said. Cutler is nothing special, but is opinion. Go to the playoffs, win a game there. DONT THROW DAMN INTS IN THE RED ZONE. I will take Orton over him any day. F- that overhyped , arrogant ass,. You will never win Cutler with them Wr's. I can't wait till we whoop his ass in 3rd preseason game.

oubronco
07-11-2009, 06:45 PM
all in just his 3rd year................sheesh

mizzoutigers
07-11-2009, 06:59 PM
I would hope any educated football fan could see and appreciate the disparity in talent between the two

gyldenlove
07-11-2009, 07:08 PM
Oh yeah, they are almost identical:

Career rating, Cutler: 87, Grossman, 70

Career yards, Cutler 9000, Grossman, 6000

Career TDs and INTs, Cutler 54/37, Grossman 33/35

Cutler has never had lower than 86 rating in a single season, Grossman has never been better than 75 and has in 6 seasons been above 70, 2 times.

It is scary how similar they are.

Cutler, INT/ATT: 3.0 in 100.
Grossman, INT/ATT: 3.6 in 100.

Cutler TD/ATT: 4.4 in 100.
Grossman TD/ATT: 3.4 in 100.

Yards/att: Cutler, 7.4, Grossman 6.4

lazarus4444
07-11-2009, 07:11 PM
http://forum.greytalk.com/style_emoticons/default/drama.gif

Dagmar
07-11-2009, 07:38 PM
http://rivalpowered.com/images/homeLetTheGamesBegin.jpg

Dagmar
07-11-2009, 07:40 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/16aa0co.jpg

DaFace
07-11-2009, 07:44 PM
How silly.

Beantown Bronco
07-11-2009, 07:47 PM
Oh yeah, they are almost identical:

Career rating, Cutler: 87, Grossman, 70

Career yards, Cutler 9000, Grossman, 6000

Career TDs and INTs, Cutler 54/37, Grossman 33/35

Cutler has never had lower than 86 rating in a single season, Grossman has never been better than 75 and has in 6 seasons been above 70, 2 times.

It is scary how similar they are.

Cutler, INT/ATT: 3.0 in 100.
Grossman, INT/ATT: 3.6 in 100.

Cutler TD/ATT: 4.4 in 100.
Grossman TD/ATT: 3.4 in 100.

Yards/att: Cutler, 7.4, Grossman 6.4

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Pseudofool
07-11-2009, 07:49 PM
Joyner isn't saying they are the same players. Only that they are similar in their penchant to take risks. And given that Cutler is moving into a team with far fewer skill players to throw to; a risk-happy QB might be a bigger problem than the Culter-widows are willing to admit.

Northman
07-11-2009, 07:51 PM
This ought to be good. Let the fanboys flood the gates.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 07:52 PM
I can't wait till Marshall is gone and I get to read all about how Jaffney is pretty much the same type of WR but he doesn't fumble as much. Which is true because he is never on the football field to fumble the ball but that won't stop the posters from spinning it anyways.

Pseudofool
07-11-2009, 07:53 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/16aa0co.jpgWhy is he taking the popcorn out of his mouth? Is it prop-corn?

TonyR
07-11-2009, 08:12 PM
"I'm basing my Cutler comments on three seasons of Denver tape breakdowns. He's a huge risk-taker and that equates to about 1 in 20 of his passes being an [interception] or near [interception] because of a mistake on his part. He'll win games in the Windy City and when he does, I'll hear it from Bears fans. I just want to hear from those same fans when his risk-taking costs the team a big game and I'll all but guarantee that will happen.''

theAPAOps5
07-11-2009, 08:26 PM
Now I am one of the biggest critics of the drunk but I would not compare him to Rex one bit. He has tons more ability.

His biggest problem will be lining up between a line that is a joke compared to what he had and throwing to WR who are crap. He left a good thing because he was a petulant child. Reality will set in.

OCBronco
07-11-2009, 08:57 PM
Cutler's penchant for risk taking is well noted. Could Shanahan have reigned him in with time? We'll never know.

But if I was a Bears fan, I'd be more worried about his glass jaw. Cutler had, what, 2 or 3 concussions in his first three years in Denver? Playing behind that Bears line next year, I'd be more concerned about that.

SportinOne
07-11-2009, 09:36 PM
Cutler's penchant for risk taking is well noted. Could Shanahan have reigned him in with time? We'll never know.

But if I was a Bears fan, I'd be more worried about his glass jaw. Cutler had, what, 2 or 3 concussions in his first three years in Denver? Playing behind that Bears line next year, I'd be more concerned about that.

You can't just make stuff up because you want to join in on the Cutler-bashing party...

Cutler will do fine... you all need to get over the fact that we got rid of a great talent due to a pissing contest.

footstepsfrom#27
07-11-2009, 09:44 PM
Coooooooooool...another Cuthler thread! Just what this place needs.

footstepsfrom#27
07-11-2009, 09:49 PM
According to Joyner, Cutler averages one interception or near-interception out of every 20 throws.
Maybe you should be more careful about posting stats without checking them. Cutler thew 1 pick for every 33 passes. Joyner is wrong.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 09:54 PM
Maybe you should be more careful about posting stats without checking them. Cutler thew 1 pick for every 33 passes. Joyner is wrong.

Well and now fans are saying Cutler had concussions problems. Other then the San Fran game I can't think of other game.

theAPAOps5
07-11-2009, 09:54 PM
You can't just make stuff up because you want to join in on the Cutler-bashing party...

Cutler will do fine... you all need to get over the fact that we got rid of a great talent due to a pissing contest.

Are you talking about football or drinking? He is better at one of the 2.

footstepsfrom#27
07-11-2009, 10:15 PM
Well and now fans are saying Cutler had concussions problems. Other then the San Fran game I can't think of other game.
Short summary of Cutler:

Rookie Year: unecpectedly thrown in as a rookie for 5 games
Year 2: Plays with untreated discease that causes 30 pound weight loss.
Year3: Plays with arguably the worst defense in the NFL.

I hope this guy goes on to superstardom to spite the jackasses in here.

Mr Chatterboodamn
07-11-2009, 10:27 PM
Widows in 5......4......3.....2...

tireless provocateur toolbox in ......1

BroncoMan4ever
07-11-2009, 10:38 PM
Maybe you should be more careful about posting stats without checking them. Cutler thew 1 pick for every 33 passes. Joyner is wrong.

actually Joyner said he either throws a pick or NEAR pick every 20 passes. and that is true. there were at least 1 occasion per game last season where he threw a terrible pass that 99% of the time gets picked off, that a defender just dropped. had Favre not come back last season, Jay would have led the league in INTs

Atlas
07-11-2009, 10:40 PM
http://thestartingfive.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/broncos-topper.jpg

DarkHorse30
07-11-2009, 10:48 PM
My problem with Cutler is/was that he was overvalued in Denver, mainly because he had a great arm.

All Denver QBs found tons of opportunities to get passing yardage and wins in Shanahan's system. Witness Griese and Plummer having career years in Denver. How about Brister? Not many remember his 4 winning starts for Denver in '98. And they weren't just wins, they were blowouts. So, does it follow that Cutler would do well in Shanahan's system? Surprisingly no.

Sure, complain about Denver's defense, but any Bronco fan knows that Denver hasn't had a defense to write home about in about 25 years. When they scored enough (96, 97, and 98) even Robinson could run a bend/don't break defense. But when you don't move the chains, lock onto ONE WR and make bad throws into triple coverage, you are going to put your defense in a hole. Like it or not, Denver's winning system in the late 90's was about ball control. Not too much about passing, in fact Elway often looked bored in 98. EVEN BUBBY BRISTER can win games when you control the clock by systematically wearing down a defense. How is it that Cutler couldn't figure this out?

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 10:57 PM
actually Joyner said he either throws a pick or NEAR pick every 20 passes. and that is true. there were at least 1 occasion per game last season where he threw a terrible pass that 99% of the time gets picked off, that a defender just dropped. had Favre not come back last season, Jay would have led the league in INTs

Is that a new stat the NFL records cause if not I think its called a incomplete pass.

Mr Chatterboodamn
07-11-2009, 11:15 PM
http://thestartingfive.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/broncos-topper.jpg

guy was awesome for year 2.5 of career... not going to let MCtoothyfakesmile tell ME what to do or who to root for. in b4 bears 9/11 never forget

Boobs McGee
07-11-2009, 11:17 PM
I just hope bears fans are ready for the rollercoaster ride. THATS what i remember most from the last few years. Hitting Javon for a 70 yard bomb *one time , then throwing picks. Powering down the field, then turning it over in the red zone.

It was always exciting, but unfortunately, excitement doesn't win games.

They'll be lots of oohs and aaahs with his talent, but people are gonna get tired of the decision making REAL quick in Chi town. We may be waiting for the second coming of The Duke, but they're still waiting for that second trophy. And after twenty three years, I think they're gettin PRETTY anxious. Especially since that 2006 D isn't there anymore. Knowing bears fans, they'll be callin for his head by next season

TheReverend
07-11-2009, 11:32 PM
actually Joyner said he either throws a pick or NEAR pick every 20 passes. and that is true. there were at least 1 occasion per game last season where he threw a terrible pass that 99% of the time gets picked off, that a defender just dropped. had Favre not come back last season, Jay would have led the league in INTs

And he was #2 in passes attempted... what's your point? He's just barely worse than Drew Brees for picks/passes with a half a decade less in the league.

Wait... wait... had Favre not come back, and Cutler gotten hurt, Drew Brees would've led the league in INTs! The Saints should cut him.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 11:35 PM
And he was #2 in passes attempted... what's your point? He's just barely worse than Drew Brees for picks/passes with a half a decade less in the league.

Wait... wait... had Favre not come back, and Cutler gotten hurt, Drew Brees would've led the league in INTs! The Saints should cut him.

Pretty spot on right there.

Mr Chatterboodamn
07-11-2009, 11:37 PM
I just hope bears fans are ready for the rollercoaster ride. THATS what i remember most from the last few years. Hitting Javon for a 70 yard bomb *one time , then throwing picks. Powering down the field, then turning it over in the red zone.

It was always exciting, but unfortunately, excitement doesn't win games.

They'll be lots of oohs and aaahs with his talent, but people are gonna get tired of the decision making REAL quick in Chi town. We may be waiting for the second coming of The Duke, but they're still waiting for that second trophy. And after twenty three years, I think they're gettin PRETTY anxious. Especially since that 2006 D isn't there anymore. Knowing bears fans, they'll be callin for his head by next season


haahaha i doubt it, there is no legend of elway to compete with over there. they will appreciate a good QB, which he is, and his decision making wasn't really below average...it was pretty consistent with year 2.5 QB imo. they asked him to throw a lot, and the lack of defense put us in situations where they knew it would be a pass play. and he did pretty well, including throwing for more yards than elway ever had in year 2.5.

and excitement may win more games if the defense can put the offense in a position to play with a lead. excitement is also the fundamental reason to watch football, especially since fans don't get millions of dollars or get to carry the lombardi trophy home.

this will all become apparent to you when you see the broncos' first 3rd and long.

we've had lots of roller coaster rides with past mediocre QBs... but I would much rather pay money to ride Viper at Six Flags than the Snoopy Rollercoaster at Knott's Berry Farm. And I can see why McDaniels would like the Snoopy Roller coaster approach because you must be under 5.5 feet tall to ride it.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 12:15 AM
My problem with Cutler is/was that he was overvalued in Denver, mainly because he had a great arm.

All Denver QBs found tons of opportunities to get passing yardage and wins in Shanahan's system. Witness Griese and Plummer having career years in Denver. How about Brister? Not many remember his 4 winning starts for Denver in '98. And they weren't just wins, they were blowouts. So, does it follow that Cutler would do well in Shanahan's system? Surprisingly no.

Sure, complain about Denver's defense, but any Bronco fan knows that Denver hasn't had a defense to write home about in about 25 years. When they scored enough (96, 97, and 98) even Robinson could run a bend/don't break defense. But when you don't move the chains, lock onto ONE WR and make bad throws into triple coverage, you are going to put your defense in a hole. Like it or not, Denver's winning system in the late 90's was about ball control. Not too much about passing, in fact Elway often looked bored in 98. EVEN BUBBY BRISTER can win games when you control the clock by systematically wearing down a defense. How is it that Cutler couldn't figure this out?


He was in the league three years!! He is still just a pup.

His first three years stats rival that of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino. He is right up there. He is quite possibly the best QB taken in the last three years.

You guys that are always trying to drag him down because he is no longer in Denver are going to be dreadfully sad when he goes to Pro Bowl after Pro Bowl for the Bears.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 12:38 AM
And he was #2 in passes attempted... what's your point? He's just barely worse than Drew Brees for picks/passes with a half a decade less in the league.

Wait... wait... had Favre not come back, and Cutler gotten hurt, Drew Brees would've led the league in INTs! The Saints should cut him.

see that's the problem with all you Cutler apoligists and nut swingers. all you see is the good in him, the rocket for an arm, tons of potential, and that he played with a bad defense. you never seem to remember that he was mopey on the field, or that he had at least a few WTF moments every single game, or that he disappeared when he was needed most, or that his risks put the team into a hole more often than not, or that his ego was so inflated he had already in his mind elevated himself to a status greater than Elway and that led to stupid mistakes.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 12:55 AM
He was in the league three years!! He is still just a pup.

His first three years stats rival that of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino. He is right up there. He is quite possibly the best QB taken in the last three years.

You guys that are always trying to drag him down because he is no longer in Denver are going to be dreadfully sad when he goes to Pro Bowl after Pro Bowl for the Bears.

ok understand the youth argument, and that his stats make him look great. and i am not trying to tear him down because he is with the Bears now. i just don't share the same feeling that we are doomed without him. i don't think his stats were so great that Orton or even Simms couldn't match them.

and with that, can it truly be said he actually improved over his 3 years in Denver? look at his stats, there has been no real improvement in any area that signifies that he has gotten better.

his passer rating has always been right in the 87 area

completion percentage was just about the same as the year before(1.3% lower)

INTs per pass attempt have remained basically the same as the year prior

TD per pass attempts was basically the same as the year before

Yards per attempt are the same

TD to INT ratio remains at right around 1 TD for almost 1 INT.

the point is, he has put up a lot of yards and TDs but he hasn't really elevated his game or gotten any better. his averages are the same. there has been no difference, other than he was called on to throw more and even with that his statistical averages remained basically the same during his time in Denver. and even though his passing yards per game and TD passes were up over the previous year, it is only because he threw more. his averages didn't change.


Orton on the other hand, while his stats haven't been astronomical, due to poor offensive weapons, bad line play and lack of talent in the offensive coaches, has shown improvement in his stats as a starter.

passer rating has gone up every year he has played

completion percentage up several points over the season before

TD-INT ratio has gotten better. went from 9TDs - 13INTs his 1st starting season to 18-12 this last season(which was truncated slightly by injury)

plus he has a much better attitude and winning percentage than Jay did.

DBroncos4life
07-12-2009, 01:30 AM
ok understand the youth argument, and that his stats make him look great. and i am not trying to tear him down because he is with the Bears now. i just don't share the same feeling that we are doomed without him. i don't think his stats were so great that Orton or even Simms couldn't match them.

and with that, can it truly be said he actually improved over his 3 years in Denver? look at his stats, there has been no real improvement in any area that signifies that he has gotten better.

his passer rating has always been right in the 87 area

completion percentage was just about the same as the year before(1.3% lower)

INTs per pass attempt have remained basically the same as the year prior

TD per pass attempts was basically the same as the year before

Yards per attempt are the same

TD to INT ratio remains at right around 1 TD for almost 1 INT.

the point is, he has put up a lot of yards and TDs but he hasn't really elevated his game or gotten any better. his averages are the same. there has been no difference, other than he was called on to throw more and even with that his statistical averages remained basically the same during his time in Denver. and even though his passing yards per game and TD passes were up over the previous year, it is only because he threw more. his averages didn't change.


Orton on the other hand, while his stats haven't been astronomical, due to poor offensive weapons, bad line play and lack of talent in the offensive coaches, has shown improvement in his stats as a starter.

passer rating has gone up every year he has played

completion percentage up several points over the season before

TD-INT ratio has gotten better. went from 9TDs - 13INTs his 1st starting season to 18-12 this last season(which was truncated slightly by injury)

plus he has a much better attitude and winning percentage than Jay did.
All that and no one traded two firsts and a third for Orton?

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 01:30 AM
actually Joyner said he either throws a pick or NEAR pick every 20 passes. and that is true. there were at least 1 occasion per game last season where he threw a terrible pass that 99% of the time gets picked off, that a defender just dropped. had Favre not come back last season, Jay would have led the league in INTs
Call me when they start keeping stats on "almost" interceptions. You can make the same case for every QB in the league having potential picks dropped. Did he chart "almost" completions? How bout "almost" TD's?

Fact is...no matter how it's sliced, any knowlegeable fan who watched this guy play knows 3 things: 1) he's enormously talented, 2) he's young and still has room to improve, and 3) he was hugely handicapped in Denver by having to basically carry this team on his shoulders because of the lack of a real runnin game or a legitimate defense.

Only jackwipes like this idiot media pundit and bitter fans are interested in painting him as some kind of future NFL flop.

rastaman
07-12-2009, 06:33 AM
Now I am one of the biggest critics of the drunk but I would not compare him to Rex one bit. He has tons more ability.

His biggest problem will be lining up between a line that is a joke compared to what he had and throwing to WR who are crap. He left a good thing because he was a petulant child. Reality will set in.

Can we agree to cut out the "Drunk" BS when addressing Cutler. Orton is just on divorce away from returning to his Drunk ways as well. I say this b/c Orton claims he stopped drinking b/c he got married and found the women of his dreams. Point is Orton is using marriage as a crutch to stop from drinking. Marriages of Pro atheletes have a high percentage rate of ending in divorce. Orton in my opinion has a drinking problem as well!......lets just say its in hibernation status....THAT WE KNOW OF!!!

rastaman
07-12-2009, 06:45 AM
Joyner isn't saying they are the same players. Only that they are similar in their penchant to take risks. And given that Cutler is moving into a team with far fewer skill players to throw to; a risk-happy QB might be a bigger problem than the Culter-widows are willing to admit.

I think that Orton and Cutler will each gravitate toward the mean. Cutler's #'s will slightly decrease, Orton's wil slightly increase. The best way to take advantage of this trade is to pick up Denver TE's and # 2 WR, and conversely Cutler's threat (and improved O Line) will open up lanes for Matt Forte, and Earl Bennett.

IMHO Cutler's success in Chicago long term depends on whether the Bears picks Shanahan as their next HC; should Lovee Smith record his 4th consecutive loosing season in 09. By February 2010, the Bears just could offer Shanny the job.

broncofan7
07-12-2009, 07:31 AM
Joyner isn't saying they are the same players. Only that they are similar in their penchant to take risks. And given that Cutler is moving into a team with far fewer skill players to throw to; a risk-happy QB might be a bigger problem than the Culter-widows are willing to admit.

Except that he will be playing for a team with a defense who gives up almost a TD less per game, causes more turnovers and has better special teams which will lead to #1) more chances with the ball and 2) potentially shorter fields to work with. Grossman= Cutler? what a joke--and I am a die hard Gators fan who was rooting for Grossman to have success.....(as a side note, I am curious to see what Kubes can do with Rex this pre-season)

TonyR
07-12-2009, 08:01 AM
Only jackwipes like this idiot media pundit and bitter fans are interested in painting him as some kind of future NFL flop.

Joyner DID NOT paint him as a future NFL flop, but feel free to make stuff up.

And it's freaking hilarious how you widows are reacting EXACTLY as Joyner pointed out in the very article we are discussing.

"It's funny. Whenever I say Cutler will remind Bears fans of Grossman, they get all up in arms. All Grossman did was take Chicago to their first Super Bowl in years and the Bears fans couldn't run him out of the starting spot quick enough. They'll win with Cutler but man will they grit their teeth when he blows a game or two with his over the top risk taking.

"You know what really bothers me about Cutler? The idea that fans can't comment on him in a non-emotional manner. Every Bears fan thinks he is the next coming of Jim McMahon. When I point out that he has performance issues and that Grossman had those same issues, they just go overboard instead of saying, `Hey, that's a good point, can he improve in that area?"

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 08:03 AM
Except that he will be playing for a team with a defense who gives up almost a TD less per game, causes more turnovers and has better special teams which will lead to #1) more chances with the ball and 2) potentially shorter fields to work with. Grossman= Cutler? what a joke--and I am a die hard Gators fan who was rooting for Grossman to have success.....(as a side note, I am curious to see what Kubes can do with Rex this pre-season)
Interesting little factoid I ran accross a few weeks ago but forgot to post. Over the last several years Chicago has ranked #1 in starting field position due to their kickoff and punt teams. Denver's ranked last in the NFL. This difference is about 5 full yards per possession...which adds up to a lot of yards. A statistical model developed by some numbers guy figured this to be worth about 3 points a game...that is HUGE in Orton and Cutler's won-loss records, but to my knowledge it's never been mentioned in here. McD hopefully can change this ugly stat...but whether he does or not...it appears Cutler will be impacted by the Chicago special teams 180 degrees from how he was in Denver.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 08:04 AM
Can we agree to cut out the "Drunk" BS when addressing Cutler. Orton is just on divorce away from returning to his Drunk ways as well. I say this b/c Orton claims he stopped drinking b/c he got married and found the women of his dreams. Point is Orton is using marriage as a crutch to stop from drinking. Marriages of Pro atheletes have a high percentage rate of ending in divorce. Orton in my opinion has a drinking problem as well!......lets just say its in hibernation status....THAT WE KNOW OF!!!

I will cut the drunk comments once it becomes apparent he got on the wagon. So unfortunately I cannot honor your request.

If Orton performs the same BS antics that Cutler did getting smashed before important home games he will get the same treatment.

gyldenlove
07-12-2009, 08:05 AM
Now I am one of the biggest critics of the drunk but I would not compare him to Rex one bit. He has tons more ability.

His biggest problem will be lining up between a line that is a joke compared to what he had and throwing to WR who are crap. He left a good thing because he was a petulant child. Reality will set in.

The Bears allowed 29 sacks last year with an injury riddled offensive line and Kyle Orton behind center (who is no John Elway when it comes to avoiding the pressure).

Cutler is one of the best in the league at avoiding the pressure and regularly saved his line from giving up sacks by moving in the pocket, sliding out of the pocket or running away from defenders. In most games last year he did it at least once. I would surprised to see Chicago give up more than 20 sacks in 2009, which would place them in the top 5 in the league, last year they were 1 sack away from cracking the top 10 for least sacks surrendered, so it is not exactly a joke line. Cutler also has excellent chemistry with their LT from his Vanderbilt days.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:06 AM
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TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_option_ahover { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite { FONT: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; BACKGROUND: #8a949e; COLOR: #ffffff; CURSOR: pointer } .vbmenu_hilite A:link { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite_alink { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite A:visited { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite_avisited { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite A:hover { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite A:active { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .vbmenu_hilite_ahover { COLOR: #ffffff; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .bigusername { FONT-SIZE: 14pt } TD.thead { PADDING-BOTTOM: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-TOP: 4px } DIV.thead { PADDING-BOTTOM: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-TOP: 4px } .pagenav A { TEXT-DECORATION: none } .pagenav TD { PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-TOP: 2px } .fieldset { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6px } .fieldset { FONT-SIZE: 11px } .fieldset TD { FONT-SIZE: 11px } .fieldset P { FONT-SIZE: 11px } .fieldset LI { FONT-SIZE: 11px } FORM { DISPLAY: inline } LABEL { CURSOR: default } .normal { FONT-WEIGHT: normal } .inlineimg { VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle } P { MARGIN: 0px } </style>This article is both thoughtless and useless. It pretty evident that Cutler brings things to the table that Grossman never could. The thing about INTs are that sometimes it not the QB's fault. Three things can happen on any INTs

1. QB makes a bad read and throws the ball to the wrong spot
2. The receiver make the wrong read and runs to the wrong spot. See Marshall in the Cleveland game as example
3. The defender makes a great play.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 08:08 AM
Joyner DID NOT paint him as a future NFL flop, but feel free to make stuff up.
No? How do you take this comment?
"I've said it many times and I'll say it again, Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman,''
I guess Grossman's not an NFL flop eh?

Try again. No matter what else he said...we all know Grossman's a flop.
And it's freaking hilarious how you widows are reacting EXACTLY as Joyner pointed out in the very article we are discussing.
Here's something else freaking hillarious...watching hundreds of hours of tape on an NFL QB for the sole purpose of counting his "almost" INT's.

Thanks for playing.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 08:13 AM
The Bears allowed 29 sacks last year with an injury riddled offensive line and Kyle Orton behind center (who is no John Elway when it comes to avoiding the pressure).

Cutler is one of the best in the league at avoiding the pressure and regularly saved his line from giving up sacks by moving in the pocket, sliding out of the pocket or running away from defenders. In most games last year he did it at least once. I would surprised to see Chicago give up more than 20 sacks in 2009, which would place them in the top 5 in the league, last year they were 1 sack away from cracking the top 10 for least sacks surrendered, so it is not exactly a joke line. Cutler also has excellent chemistry with their LT from his Vanderbilt days.
Chicago has upgraded their line both with the additon of Pace and by signing some veteran depth. Having Cutler instead of Orton to protect will probably lop at 10 sacks off the total even without those upgrades.

Broncos4tw
07-12-2009, 08:18 AM
Clearly they should have put Cutler on defense. It's his fault we got a whopping 6 turnovers last year, last in the league.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 08:18 AM
Chicago has upgraded their line both with the additon of Pace and by signing some veteran depth. Having Cutler instead of Orton to protect will probably lop at 10 sacks off the total even without those upgrades.

You and Gyldenlove provide a good argument there. Cutler was magnificent at avoiding sacks. I won't deny that. Now if he just had a Marshall and more importantly Royal to throw too! :)

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:21 AM
Clearly they should have put Cutler on defense. It's his fault we got a whopping 6 turnovers last year, last in the league.

He was a recruited to play Safety in collage

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 08:22 AM
He was a recruited to play Safety in collage

He was supposedly a better Safety than QB. Back to the eluding the sack I think that really came from running the option and playing with the crap he had at Vanderbilt. It is almost second nature to avoid pressure after that!

So maybe that will help in Chicago.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:30 AM
He was supposedly a better Safety than QB. Back to the eluding the sack I think that really came from running the option and playing with the crap he had at Vanderbilt. It is almost second nature to avoid pressure after that!

So maybe that will help in Chicago.

Playing at Vandy, prepared him for the NFL game better then playing at USC or Texas. At Vandy he was forced to make those decisions in 3 second range similar to the NFL passing attack with people at his feet. Unlike the other big name selections that had 10 seconds to throw to uncovered receivers and clean pockets.

The line is going to need to step up and play better then last year if Orton is going to be successful. Orton doesn't have the mobility in the pocket that helps keep plays alive longer.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 08:35 AM
Playing at Vandy, prepared him for the NFL game better then playing at USC or Texas. At Vandy he was forced to make those decisions in 3 second range similar to the NFL passing attack with people at his feet. Unlike the other big name selections that had 10 seconds to throw to uncovered receivers and clean pockets.

The line is going to need to step up and play better then last year if Orton is going to be successful. Orton doesn't have the mobility in the pocket that helps keep plays alive longer.

Not necessarily, the new offense is predicated on quick reads and releases to get the defense on their heels and then going for a big play once they have them off balance.

So Orton doesn't have to be as mobile as Cutler had to be in the Shanny offense. Tom Brady and Cassell are far from mobile QB's and they do alright in that offense.

rastaman
07-12-2009, 08:38 AM
Playing at Vandy, prepared him for the NFL game better then playing at USC or Texas. At Vandy he was forced to make those decisions in 3 second range similar to the NFL passing attack with people at his feet. Unlike the other big name selections that had 10 seconds to throw to uncovered receivers and clean pockets.

The line is going to need to step up and play better then last year if Orton is going to be successful. Orton doesn't have the mobility in the pocket that helps keep plays alive longer.

Bingo! Orton will need to play in a complete incubator system to be successful.

rastaman
07-12-2009, 08:42 AM
Not necessarily, the new offense is predicated on quick reads and releases to get the defense on their heels and then going for a big play once they have them off balance.

So Orton doesn't have to be as mobile as Cutler had to be in the Shanny offense. Tom Brady and Cassell are far from mobile QB's and they do alright in that offense.

NYG in the Superbowl proved that if you send more rushers than the offense can block! non mobile slow footed QB's become mere mortals. Also, if you notices in that SB, Brady wasn't making quick reads and passing dump off to WR's, Brady was holding the ball for 4 to 6 seconds and the Giants were getting to him.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:45 AM
Not necessarily, the new offense is predicated on quick reads and releases to get the defense on their heels and then going for a big play once they have them off balance.

So Orton doesn't have to be as mobile as Cutler had to be in the Shanny offense. Tom Brady and Cassell are far from mobile QB's and they do alright in that offense.

Defense coordinators also have 3 years of film on how McDaniels runs his offense and the system. I would expect that we will see more jams at on the WRs. Add in the fact that Orton doesn't the quickest release and we need the line to hold up and give the receivers the ability to uncover.

DarkHorse30
07-12-2009, 08:46 AM
He was in the league three years!! He is still just a pup.

His first three years stats rival that of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino. He is right up there. He is quite possibly the best QB taken in the last three years.

You guys that are always trying to drag him down because he is no longer in Denver are going to be dreadfully sad when he goes to Pro Bowl after Pro Bowl for the Bears.

I can't give the guy a pass like you're giving him, largely because of the way he conducted himself on and off the field. I think he carried himself like a punk, especially the trash-talking with Rivers and his comments on 'miked up (can you say 12 year old?). All that would have been acceptable if he had a winning game to go with it. I don't see a winning game. I see a big arm....that hasn't won him enough games to get him into the playoffs, despite an excellent chance last year.

I don't drag players down unless they deserve it. IMO, Cutler deserved it by what he did to the team that drafted him pretty high, put him in the first chance they could, and then trained him in a good system that nearly EVERY QB succeeds in.

But after Shanahan was fired, Cutler became a complete baby:

1) he whined about Bates leaving to take a job at USC. He said he didn't request a trade at that time, but that is what was reported.

2) he whined about McDaniels talking to NE about Cassel, his former QB. Apparently Jay thinks he shouldn't be shopped by his new coach.....even when it was reported IN JANUARY that Jay wanted to be traded when Bates was hired by USC.

3) he had a completely different take than McDaniels did about their meeting, and then later requested a trade. Just a coincidence that his home went up for sale?
He also explained that his house being put up for sale was "nothing more than a coincidence."

"I had already shown my house privately to some interested buyers a couple of months ago," Cutler said. "I've really been looking to buy 40 to 70 acres of land there." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805
.....Riiiiiiigghhtt. And mommy and daddy's home, too? Were they going to move in?.....to Cutlerland Ranch?

Bottom line to me - did Cutler force a trade? Based ONLY on his opinion that McDaniels shouldn't talk to NE about his former QB, who was going to be moving on to a new team? IMO, he did.

If you're the head coach of a new team, and your QB doesn't seem to want to be there (according to some reports), you are going to "hope" that your QB will change his mind, or are you going to look for a possible replacement?

After your new star QB has thrown his old team, his old owner, and his old fans under the bus....do you think you might be a little more critical of his "superstar" status? I am, and have looked at his last 3 games, and his probowl crapshoot, a little differently....and not so much as a fan, but a tad more subjective viewpoint.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 08:48 AM
You and Gyldenlove provide a good argument there. Cutler was magnificent at avoiding sacks. I won't deny that. Now if he just had a Marshall and more importantly Royal to throw too! :)
Let's suppose he doesn't...I can make an argument that Devin Hester having played all of 2 years as a WR (remember he was a CB coming out of college) has a VERY bright future once he gets a little more time in that role. In that case they would need only one WR on the other side. But even if he doesn't...how long do you think the Bears will let Cutler play with limited options in their passing attack? I think it's safe to assume they'll rectify that as quickly as possible, if not in the draft then in FA next year.

SportinOne
07-12-2009, 08:52 AM
Whether Cutler is a "top" quarterback or not, and whether or not Orton will be successful here are two separate arguments and should be treated as such.

With Brady and Manning getting older, Cutler could eventually emerge as the best quarterback in the league. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

As far as Orton is concerned, do you think he's better than Matt Cassell? Here's a better question: Does McDaniels think that he is? My gripe with McDaniels trying to trade for Cassell has always been that if Cassell couldn't even take the best team in the league to the playoffs, how in the world could he take our team to the playoffs when we are significantly worse at just about every facet of the game.

Even if we built our team up quickly, say in 2 years, we still wouldn't be as good as the Patriots were the last couple of years... So THIS was the guys plan?

Good thing it fell through, except that now we have plan B. And plan B is a player that had trouble beating out Rex Grossman. So now we are taking a worse player, who is less familar with the system, and trying to do what? It's a mess.

But it's going to be okay, because a bad season equals a high first round pick. Oh, wait, he traded that away, too.

Don't worry, though.. Unless the guy keeps making dumb trades we should be drafting quite highly for the next 3 or 4 years.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:59 AM
Let's suppose he doesn't...I can make an argument that Devin Hester having played all of 2 years as a WR (remember he was a CB coming out of college) has a VERY bright future once he gets a little more time in that role. In that case they would need only one WR on the other side. But even if he doesn't...how long do you think the Bears will let Cutler play with limited options in their passing attack? I think it's safe to assume they'll rectify that as quickly as possible, if not in the draft then in FA next year.

Remember that Chicago drafted Earl Bennett in the 2nd last year. He was very polished WR out of Vanderbilt that has the ability to be similar to Greg Jennings. Bennett was hurt last year, but is healthy this season and was one of Cutler favorite targets in college.

Cito Pelon
07-12-2009, 09:03 AM
I can pick Jay's game apart, or build it up, there's ammunition for both sides of the argument. The bottom line to me is we'll do fine without him. I'm not worried at all right now.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 09:09 AM
Remember that Chicago drafted Earl Bennett in the 2nd last year. He was very polished WR out of Vanderbilt that has the ability to be similar to Greg Jennings. Bennett was hurt last year, but is healthy this season and was one of Cutler favorite targets in college.
Chicago fans and media have been noting improvement on his part and I believe Lovie Smith has also said this. I gotta think the passing game is going to be a much larger focus now and that translates to some increased importance to some of these guys.

SportinOne
07-12-2009, 09:10 AM
Some of you people are mad at Cutler because he "dissed" your team. His problem wasn't with the Broncos his problem was with an idiot owner and an in-over-his-head first year coach. Pat Bowlen is not the Broncos. He could sell the team tomorrow.

As far as Cutler being a winner... if you can't understand the concept of a good player on a bad team none of us here can help you. If we had Orton last year how many games would we have won? If we had Cassell last year how many games would we have won?

You know what, maybe this will help:

Tell me, out of these ten pitchers, who is having the best season. (I'll give you a hint, it's NOT the guy on top!)

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/153/pitching.jpg

Punisher
07-12-2009, 09:11 AM
Last year at this time Threads like this will be in the Butt.

SportinOne
07-12-2009, 09:12 AM
The bottom line to me is we'll do fine without him. I'm not worried at all right now.

And what do you base this statement on?

elsid13
07-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Chicago fans and media have been noting improvement on his part and I believe Lovie Smith has also said this. I gotta think the passing game is going to be a much larger focus now and that translates to some increased importance to some of these guys.

In many ways the Turner run first, play action deep attack suits Cutler game. Having establish single running back that will help Cutler get more one on one coverage on the outside.

B-Love
07-12-2009, 09:25 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

gyldenlove
07-12-2009, 09:33 AM
You and Gyldenlove provide a good argument there. Cutler was magnificent at avoiding sacks. I won't deny that. Now if he just had a Marshall and more importantly Royal to throw too! :)

Certainly there are no players who have had the success of Royal and Marshall with the Bears, on the other hand though none of the WRs there have had the luxury of having a good QB and an offense build around passing the ball.

Bennett does have a report with Cutler, Hester despite only playing WR for 2 years had more than 50 receptions last year so there is some talent at the position, although not at the level of what Cutler left behind in Denver.

broncofan7
07-12-2009, 09:34 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

Some people don't watch the weather before deciding whether or not to take the umbrella into work before they get rained on, some people don't look both ways before crossing the street before they get hit by a car and apparently some people don't think a football team on paper that is now below average or average in 3 phases of the game instead of two, won't realize what a collosal failure trading Cutler is until we go 5-11.

SouthStndJunkie
07-12-2009, 10:01 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

Excellent take....could not have said it better myself.

BABronco
07-12-2009, 10:08 AM
You and Gyldenlove provide a good argument there. Cutler was magnificent at avoiding sacks. I won't deny that. Now if he just had a Marshall and more importantly Royal to throw too! :)

I'll be interested to see how they look without Cutler. I'm sure they will look good... but I have to wonder if there will be a drop in production (yards, tds, receptions).

It will also be interesting to see if Cutler can make Chicago's receivers look any good. Again it will be interesting to see the change in their production.

BABronco
07-12-2009, 10:18 AM
Some people don't watch the weather before deciding whether or not to take the umbrella into work before they get rained on, some people don't look both ways before crossing the street before they get hit by a car and apparently some people don't think a football team on paper that is now below average or average in 3 phases of the game instead of two, won't realize what a collosal failure trading Cutler is until we go 5-11.

The funny thing is that everyone is saying that is about what they would have expected with cutler this year due to the incredibly hard schedule..... :spit: :spit:

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 10:33 AM
I'll be interested to see how they look without Cutler. I'm sure they will look good... but I have to wonder if there will be a drop in production (yards, tds, receptions).

It will also be interesting to see if Cutler can make Chicago's receivers look any good. Again it will be interesting to see the change in their production.

Don't forget that Cutler was throwing to Marshall who had a huge amount of drops so his numbers could have looked even better.

Popps
07-12-2009, 10:44 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.t.

B,

We're about the same age... so we've seen a similar amount of football. You're certainly more of a historian than I'll ever be, so I always defer to your knowledge of the game.

That said, I don't think most people believe we got the "better end" of the Cutler deal. (Though, there are people... even non-Broncos fans that believe we did.)

For one, we were 7-9. We were absolutely given a game that Cutler fumbled away, and the refs gave it back to us. So, Cutler's playoff bungle against Buffalo should have never mattered.

I'm not going to go game by game, but suffice to say, of those 7 wins... Cutler had a great game in a few of them. The others, he mostly just did his job. (Tampa, Atlanta, etc.)


You're probably correct that instead of 7-9, we could have ended up 5-11 with a QB of lesser physical skills. I think the point a lot of fans are making around here is... neither is acceptable.

Jay Cutler needed to get out of town. For whatever reason, he decided he wanted to leave. Conversely, Mike Shanahan has struggled mightily in the past several seasons with regards to fielding a complete team.

The optimism you see from the optimistic half around here doesn't rest purely on the QB position. It rests on little things like our staff actually prioritizing special teams, and attempting to draft players to help us excel.
A new defensive scheme, some talented players, an offensive brain-child as a coach and some intriguing draft picks.

There are a lot of questions out there regarding Cutler's intangibles. Perhaps those questions will be put to rest, and he'll go on to win Superbowls. But, at a few years into his career... there's legitimate reason to question whether or not he was on par to be a true "franchise" quarterback.

No one thinks we're better because Orton will start over Cutler. But, Cutler is physically more talented than Rivers and Roethlisberger, and yet both of those guys have been successful at leading their teams to playoffs due to the structure/make-up of their respective teams.

It's the complete team concept that has many of us excited... the notion of being able to have a system in place where we sign and develop talent like Pitt/NE (etc.) and remain a playoff team year after year, instead of hoping a superhero QB can dig us out of crap holes week after week.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 10:45 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.
This post deserves a 10.0.

Blueflame
07-12-2009, 11:13 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

Good post... I'd add that special teams also totally sucked. We lost the field position battles with nauseating regularity...

Popps
07-12-2009, 11:25 AM
Good post... I'd add that special teams also totally sucked. We lost the field position battles with nauseating regularity...

Exactly the point. The new admin will be looking to build a complete team, not a smoke-mirrors QB show with a guy who can't handle that challenge.

While Cutler had his moments, he still threw almost as many INTs as TDs, and was 2nd worst in the league.

DBroncos4life
07-12-2009, 11:55 AM
Exactly the point. The new admin will be looking to build a complete team, not a smoke-mirrors QB show with a guy who can't handle that challenge.

While Cutler had his moments, he still threw almost as many INTs as TDs, and was 2nd worst in the league.

blah blah blah, and he almost took us to the playoffs with smoke and mirrors. Too bad you missed anything B-Love had to say in his post that was perfect. Oh and ALMOST ISN'T A STAT.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 12:00 PM
While Cutler had his moments, he still threw almost as many INTs as TDs, and was 2nd worst in the league.
Actually that would be John Elway not Cutler. Cutler's thrown 54 TD's and 37 INT's to John's 47 TD's and 52 INT's after three years...and 5 more games worth of experience. It took John till 1993...TEN YEARS before he overcame a very mediocre TD to INT ratio. At that point he had 158 TD's and 157 TD's. So basically if Cutler goes the next 7 years throwing 16 more INT's than TD's he'll match Elway at that point in his career.

24champ
07-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

Excellent post. Short and to the point.

I'd also add that losing Shanahan was also devastating as well. Say what you want about Shanahan, but we always had stability with that guy. Only had what 2 losing seasons? Never seen so many bungles in a span of a few months from our team, and that's started with Pat Bowlen, whose ownership credentials are on the line.

Our biggest need on this team was to put together something that resembles a DL. Instead we ignore it and sign a bunch of cast-offs and added players that are major projects. Couple that with the fact we have players playing out of position and have never played in a 3-4. I don't see much improvement.

and yeah we drafted Ayers but assuming Ayers starts on the DL and not OLB, I am not going to expect him to be the savior of that pile of crap of a DL. That's asking too much for a rookie.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 12:24 PM
All that and no one traded two firsts and a third for Orton?

i am not saying Orton is better than Cutler. i am simply pointing out that while Cutler is good and has a ****load of potential, he has yet to elevate his game. his averages remain the same all 3 years he was here, and now in Chicago with a major dropoff in receiving talent and protection, it is likely he isn't going to improve his game from what it is now.

Orton on the other hand, when he gets his opportunities to start, he performs better than the season before, the same can't be said for Jay

colonelbeef
07-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I will cut the drunk comments once it becomes apparent he got on the wagon. So unfortunately I cannot honor your request.

If Orton performs the same BS antics that Cutler did getting smashed before important home games he will get the same treatment.

haha. Your sanctimonious hypocrisy knows no bounds. You are shameless, and intellectually dishonest taboot. Your opinion, therefore, is less than worthless.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Actually that would be John Elway not Cutler. Cutler's thrown 54 TD's and 37 INT's to John's 47 TD's and 52 INT's after three years...and 5 more games worth of experience. It took John till 1993...TEN YEARS before he overcame a very mediocre TD to INT ratio. At that point he had 158 TD's and 157 TD's. So basically if Cutler goes the next 7 years throwing 16 more INT's than TD's he'll match Elway at that point in his career.

yeah, and after 3 years Elway had been to the playoffs 3 times and in his 2 full seasons out of the 1st 3 the team's record was something like 24-8. after 10 years Elway had led the Broncos to the super bowl 3 times.
and for the most part he did it alone. Jay has had a better supporting cast and has done less with it than John did with nothing.

Elway's stats may have been more in line with Orton's, and his talents were more in line with Jay, but the difference between the 2 is Elway was a winner.

24champ
07-12-2009, 12:33 PM
Orton on the other hand, when he gets his opportunities to start, he performs better than the season before, the same can't be said for Jay

Since people trash Cutler for not bringing the Broncos to the playoffs. Let me ask you this, with a good special teams (Hester) play, solid defense (22 interceptions, 10 fumble recoveries) and last but not least, solid running back play(Matt Forte-1238 yds, 8 TDs).

Did Orton lead them to the playoffs?

DarkHorse30
07-12-2009, 12:40 PM
yeah, and after 3 years Elway had been to the playoffs 3 times and in his 2 full seasons out of the 1st 3 the team's record was something like 24-8. after 10 years Elway had led the Broncos to the super bowl 3 times.
and for the most part he did it alone. Jay has had a better supporting cast and has done less with it than John did with nothing.

Elway's stats may have been more in line with Orton's, and his talents were more in line with Jay, but the difference between the 2 is Elway was a winner.

Bingo. It will be interesting to see how both QBs do this year, since one was given a second chance with a good offense, and the other threw his good offense, his fans, and his team under the bus by quitting on them......and then blaming it on the owner and the new coach. Brilliant.

24champ
07-12-2009, 12:44 PM
Since people trash Cutler for not bringing the Broncos to the playoffs. Let me ask you this, with a good special teams (Hester) play, solid defense (22 interceptions, 10 fumble recoveries) and last but not least, solid running back play(Matt Forte-1238 yds, 8 TDs).

Did Orton lead them to the playoffs?

*Crickets*

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 12:47 PM
haha. Your sanctimonious hypocrisy knows no bounds. You are shameless, and intellectually dishonest taboot. Your opinion, therefore, is less than worthless.

I just had to quote this its one of the best responses I have ever had. So when Shanahan finds a new team will that be your team? You have proven yourself to be a crybaby Shanafan and not a Bronco fan seeing how you react to people who talk bad about he and Cutler.

Thank you for the laugh! LOL

barryr
07-12-2009, 12:49 PM
Hmm, why is it those that support Cutler in any issue always point to his limited time in the NFL when anything negative is mentioned, yet are quick to give him praise and a spot in Canton when pointing out the positives despite his limited time in the NFL. If it's too quick to judge the negatives, same with the positives. Can't have it both ways.

Of course some are convinced Cutler is due for multiple Super Bowl wins and considered one of the best QB's in NFL history simply because he can throw hard.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 12:51 PM
*Crickets*

We are all laughing at you because you are trying to tie a correlation in with a guy who had a severe injury. Just can't believe you posted that!

:angel:


Just messing buddy! And no I am not serious you also raise a good argument.

24champ
07-12-2009, 01:01 PM
We are all laughing at you because you are trying to tie a correlation in with a guy who had a severe injury. Just can't believe you posted that!


He missed one game, due to a "severe injury" an ankle injury...um ok.

Still the question is, if his Bears team was decent. Why was it that he couldn't "lead" them to the playoffs? If the Broncos were decent, why would he lead us to the playoffs if he couldn't do the same for the Bears?

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 01:01 PM
yeah, and after 3 years Elway had been to the playoffs 3 times and in his 2 full seasons out of the 1st 3 the team's record was something like 24-8. after 10 years Elway had led the Broncos to the super bowl 3 times.
I knew someone would come back with this. But that's not the point Popps was making. He argued on the basis of Cutler throwing nearly the same number of INT's as TD's, which first of all is false, and second; as I just showed...our beloved HOF QB actually DID do that.
...and for the most part he did it alone. Jay has had a better supporting cast and has done less with it than John did with nothing.
Wrong. Jay had a better supporting OFFENSIVE supporting cast, but Elway NEVER played with a defense even remotely as bad as the one Jay was saddled with the last two years. John never dealt with losing 30 pounds due to diabetes, and very few people will argue that Shanahan the last two years was anywhere near as good as he was earlier in his career.
Elway's stats may have been more in line with Orton's, and his talents were more in line with Jay, but the difference between the 2 is Elway was a winner.
An unbelievably naive argument. People used to say that about Peyton Manning, and in fact I've previously demonstrated Manning was a loser with bad defenses, so your argument is rejected. Nobody can evaluate how good a QB is, much less whether he's a winner or not based on 37 games, especially when they were spent dealing with the crap D Cutler had. Come back with a real argument.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 01:03 PM
Hmm, why is it those that support Cutler in any issue always point to his limited time in the NFL when anything negative is mentioned, yet are quick to give him praise and a spot in Canton when pointing out the positives despite his limited time in the NFL. If it's too quick to judge the negatives, same with the positives. Can't have it both ways.
No Barry that's not a very good argument. I would spend some time explaining it to you but I have a feeling it wouldn't sink in.
Of course some are convinced Cutler is due for multiple Super Bowl wins and considered one of the best QB's in NFL history simply because he can throw hard.
Yes Barry I've heard hundreds of posts suggesting that very thing. You're pure genius.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 01:05 PM
He missed one game, due to a "severe injury" an ankle injury...um ok.

Still the question is, if his Bears team was decent. Why was it that he couldn't "lead" them to the playoffs? If the Broncos were decent, why would he lead us to the playoffs if he couldn't do the same for the Bears?

Did you see the rest of the post? I was just giving you a hard time. :kiss:

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 01:07 PM
I'm not going to go game by game, but suffice to say, of those 7 wins... Cutler had a great game in a few of them. The others, he mostly just did his job. (Tampa, Atlanta, etc.)

You're aware in those two games each he was 2/3rds of the total offense, threw for TD and had no picks, right?

24champ
07-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Did you see the rest of the post? I was just giving you a hard time. :kiss:


I saw that you edited it...backtracking already are we?:P

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 01:11 PM
I saw that you edited it...backtracking already are we?:P

Actually the original said giving you a hard time but I added more so you wouldn't cry again.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 01:14 PM
Actually the original said giving you a hard time but I added more so you wouldn't cry again.

Please make my picture.... :angel:

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 01:14 PM
People act like Elway won every game. From '92-95 he went 32-32 and we missed the playoffs 3 of 4 years and sneaked in with a 9-7 record the other time. It's assanine to predict Cutler's a loser based on 2 1/2 seasons with a team that had no defense.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 01:15 PM
Please make my picture.... :angel:

Yeah it will be another day I am taking a break from my other project but about to get back to it.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 01:18 PM
Yeah it will be another day I am taking a break from my other project but about to get back to it.

Fair enough.

Just the sheer volume of awesome that will be me riding a huge cobra that's spitting AIDs at McDaniels is enough to give me chills.

azbroncfan
07-12-2009, 01:22 PM
He was in the league three years!! He is still just a pup.

His first three years stats rival that of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino. He is right up there. He is quite possibly the best QB taken in the last three years.

You guys that are always trying to drag him down because he is no longer in Denver are going to be dreadfully sad when he goes to Pro Bowl after Pro Bowl for the Bears.

Except the Brady, Manning and Marino teams had much more success.

outdoor_miner
07-12-2009, 01:24 PM
Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

There is no doubt that we took a hit talent-wise by losing Cutler. However, the prima-donna bitched and whined his way out of town. Cutler is an immense talent, but it is yet to be seen if he can put it all together. There is no doubt about that. I think some people go overboard with the Jay bashing (on the field), but he flat out did not play well enough in some games last year, particularly down the stretch. He looked amazing for the first 1/4 of the season, and looked like an above average quarterback for the rest of the year. Yes, he had a lot of pressure on him, but franchise qb's are supposed to rise to the occasion. He may very well become great (although, I sure as hell hope he doesn't), but he is certainly not great yet.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and hopefully, McDaniels figures out how to build a winning team. Shanahan focused on building a winning offense, and ignored the other 2 phases of the game.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 01:25 PM
Except the Brady, Manning and Marino teams had much more success.

Just pointing out the operative word. :)

Atlas
07-12-2009, 01:31 PM
ok understand the youth argument, and that his stats make him look great. and i am not trying to tear him down because he is with the Bears now. i just don't share the same feeling that we are doomed without him. i don't think his stats were so great that Orton or even Simms couldn't match them.

and with that, can it truly be said he actually improved over his 3 years in Denver? look at his stats, there has been no real improvement in any area that signifies that he has gotten better.

his passer rating has always been right in the 87 area

completion percentage was just about the same as the year before(1.3% lower)

INTs per pass attempt have remained basically the same as the year prior

TD per pass attempts was basically the same as the year before

Yards per attempt are the same

TD to INT ratio remains at right around 1 TD for almost 1 INT.

the point is, he has put up a lot of yards and TDs but he hasn't really elevated his game or gotten any better. his averages are the same. there has been no difference, other than he was called on to throw more and even with that his statistical averages remained basically the same during his time in Denver. and even though his passing yards per game and TD passes were up over the previous year, it is only because he threw more. his averages didn't change.


Orton on the other hand, while his stats haven't been astronomical, due to poor offensive weapons, bad line play and lack of talent in the offensive coaches, has shown improvement in his stats as a starter.

passer rating has gone up every year he has played

completion percentage up several points over the season before

TD-INT ratio has gotten better. went from 9TDs - 13INTs his 1st starting season to 18-12 this last season(which was truncated slightly by injury)

plus he has a much better attitude and winning percentage than Jay did.


What I see when I watch his games are not the yards. I see the arm, I see the laser acuarancy on these tough slant patterns, I see determination and Grit. I see a winner that his teamates follow on the field. He might not be much better this year than last because of the new system, less talent but make no mistake he is going to be a perrenial Pro Bowler.

All those stats you point out you forgot to mention his youth. He is going to get much better.... 2X better!!. He has an 87 passer rating in his three year career. Elway's was about 74 in case you were curious. Like I said the only QBs you can not find fault with their first three years are Tom Brady and Dan Marino. Every other great QB had growing pains. Cutler's growing pains are hardly worth noticing and if he was still on this team we'd all be psyched about his future.

Fans as they tend to do will spin things however they want to justiify what they want to believe in. So they all can take confront in trying to tear him down and say he is no good, a crybaby, a quitter. Baltimore did exactly the same thing when they traded Elway. So Denver fans can continue to slander and rip on Cutler for any and everything, and Chicago fans can take comfort in the fact that they have their "Elway" and paid a pittance for him.

TonyR
07-12-2009, 01:39 PM
No? How do you take this comment?

I guess Grossman's not an NFL flop eh?

Try again. No matter what else he said...we all know Grossman's a flop.


Clearly your bias and kneejerk "defend Cutler at all costs" fan boy mentality is clouding your ability to read and comprehend the article. Joyner specifically states, and more than once, that Cutler will win in Chicago. Specifically! More than once! He's not saying Cutler = Grossman. He's saying Cutler will sometimes remind Bears fans of Grossman with his carelessness. It's very simple but apparently you can think clearly because your teeth are clenched too tight since someone had the audacity to say something negative about your boy crush. Come on, footy, get a clue.

And thank you for playing.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 02:11 PM
Clearly your bias and kneejerk "defend Cutler at all costs" fan boy mentality is clouding your ability to read and comprehend the article. Joyner specifically states, and more than once, that Cutler will win in Chicago. Specifically! More than once! He's not saying Cutler = Grossman. He's saying Cutler will sometimes remind Bears fans of Grossman with his carelessness. It's very simple but apparently you can think clearly because your teeth are clenched too tight since someone had the audacity to say something negative about your boy crush. Come on, footy, get a clue.

And thank you for playing.
He'll win in Chicago? Who cares? Grossman won there too...do you think that he's NOT a flop? Answer yes or no...is Grossman an NFL flop or not? This moron says he'll remind Bear fans of Grossman...nobody thinks Chicago won because of Grossman, but rather in spite of him...not even this idiot who spent hundreds of hours scouring game film for "almost" interceptions just so he could make some stupid point that has no relevance.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 02:21 PM
What I see when I watch his games are not the yards. I see the arm, I see the laser acuarancy on these tough slant patterns, I see determination and Grit. I see a winner that his teamates follow on the field. He might not be much better this year than last because of the new system, less talent but make no mistake he is going to be a perrenial Pro Bowler.

All those stats you point out you forgot to mention his youth. He is going to get much better.... 2X better!!. He has an 87 passer rating in his three year career. Elway's was about 74 in case you were curious. Like I said the only QBs you can not find fault with their first three years are Tom Brady and Dan Marino. Every other great QB had growing pains. Cutler's growing pains are hardly worth noticing and if he was still on this team we'd all be psyched about his future.

Fans as they tend to do will spin things however they want to justiify what they want to believe in. So they all can take confront in trying to tear him down and say he is no good, a crybaby, a quitter. Baltimore did exactly the same thing when they traded Elway. So Denver fans can continue to slander and rip on Cutler for any and everything, and Chicago fans can take comfort in the fact that they have their "Elway" and paid a pittance for him.

everyone has to try and compare Cutler to Elway and that is bull****. Did Elway have a Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, Tony Scheffler as receiving weapons, did he have a line that was without question the best unit in the league, did he have pro bowl coaching.......NO!!!

Cutler has had a ****load of help handed to him. Elway and his lackluster stats to begin his career had no help, and in his 1st 2 full seasons as a starter the team was a combined 24-8.

also, nobody factors in on these comparisons that Elway's career was played in an era where the league hadn't changed so many rules to make the QBs basically untouchable and hinder defenses in an effort to make the league more offensive.

and you say he is going to get better. how do you know that. he had a strong likelihood of getting better here in Denver where he would have good ofensive minds, a lot of weapons, and a line that keeps his uniform clean. in Chicago, he has inept coaching, no weapons and i don't care how much that line is supposedly upgraded, it is still pretty bad. how can he be expected to get any better than he is now, if there are no coaches to coach him up and no weapons to help him out.

it is now likely that playing in Chicago, his peak has already been hit. last season may very well come to be seen as the best season of his career. he is not going to put up numbers like last season in Chicago.

and what does the pro bowl mean exactly? nothing, it is a popularity contest. Brett Favre goes every year and hasn't been deserving since like 2003. Cutler last season had no right to be in that game.

i am not trying to bash the guy. i just think his career is going to suffer more in Chicago than the Broncos franchise will suffer without him.

how can you say he is going to get better. supposedly in the NFL a QBs 3rd season is the year a QB takes his leap and shows how much better he can be. Cutler has shown absolutely no progress in his game. he is still averaging the same numbers he has his entire career.

i'd bet that Orton has better numbers at the end of the season than Jay does.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:30 PM
but make no mistake he is going to be a perrenial Pro Bowler.

We'll see about that. Rivers got the shaft. Cutler had no business being in over him.

His odds did go up greatly, moving to the NFC, though.

As for Chicago having their "Elway," I can't believe you can post that without laughing. Maybe you weren't around to watch Elway in person. If you were, you'd never post something that silly.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 02:32 PM
We'll see about that. Rivers got the shaft. Brett Favre had no business being in over him.

His odds did go up greatly, moving to the NFC, though.

As for Chicago having their "Elway," I can't believe you can post that without laughing. Maybe you weren't around to watch Elway in person. If you were, you'd never post something that silly.

Fixed.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 02:32 PM
it is now likely that playing in Chicago, his peak has already been hit. last season may very well come to be seen as the best season of his career. he is not going to put up numbers like last season in Chicago.

and what does the pro bowl mean exactly? nothing, it is a popularity contest. Brett Favre goes every year and hasn't been deserving since like 2003. Cutler last season had no right to be in that game.


So before you were saying he was no good, now you're saying he was good, but he won't get any better.

Sur ethe Probowl is a populartiy contest, but if Cutler goes to muliple Probowls than you pretty much know that he isn't going to be a flop in Chicago and you pretty much know that Chicago got it's worth out of him.

You use Farve as you're example of QBs going that don't deserve to go?? Hilarious! One of the greatest QBs to ever play the game. I'm sure if Cutler stays in Chicago long enough to have a career like Brett Farve and get a few popularity Pro Bowl votes aty the end of his career, they'll be very happy.


You ever think Farve got the Pro Bowls at the end because of his three NFL MVPs he got earlier?

Like I said. I see greatness in Cutler.... Greatness. His stats might suffer a little this year, but if Chicago goes 10-6 or 11-5 they will be plenty happy with him. As for Denver what record are you going to be content with this year?

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:35 PM
Fixed.

True.

Any QB that throws as many INTs as Cutler/Favre did last year has no business in Hawaii.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 02:37 PM
We are all laughing at you because you are trying to tie a correlation in with a guy who had a severe injury. Just can't believe you posted that!

:angel:


Just messing buddy! And no I am not serious you also raise a good argument.

Severe injury? He was hurt, but all players are hurt as the season goes along, it part of the game. Everyone points to the ankle sprain as the reason Orton play fell off, it more likely that 7 weeks in, defense coordinators had enough film on the Chicago offense to stop it.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Severe injury? He was hurt, but all players are hurt as the season goes along, it part of the game. Everyone points to the ankle sprain as the reason Orton play fell off, it more likely that 7 weeks in, defense coordinators had enough film on the Chicago offense to stop it.

Jebus Man read the whole post! It was just a joke towards ALF or 24Champ or whatever he is today! :thumbsup:

24champ
07-12-2009, 02:41 PM
i'd bet that Orton has better numbers at the end of the season than Jay does.

That and 75 cents will you a mediocre cup of coffee.

I think it is safe to say Bear fans will NOT be clamoring for Orton to be back in Chi-town in the future. They have a more well rounded team then we do, hopefully we get back to that point sometime in the future.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 02:41 PM
True.

Any QB that throws as many INTs as Cutler/Favre did last year has no business in Hawaii.

Whatever, Rivers should have made the Probowl instead of Cutler. That is really irrelevant as to how good Cutler is going to be.

Peyton Manning 3rd year in the NFL 571 Attempts 15 Ints
Jay Cutler 3rd year in the league 616 attemps 18 ints

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:42 PM
S
Like I said. I see greatness in Cutler.... Greatness. His stats might suffer a little this year, but if Chicago goes 10-6 or 11-5 they will be plenty happy with him. As for Denver what record are you going to be content with this year?

What kind of argument is that? Try to stick to one topic. Are we taking about Denver v. Chicago with regards to total team quality, or are we talking about Cutler being the next Elway?

For all the nut-swinging you're doing for Cutler, the guy only put up 7 wins last year.

No defense? True.

One of the best O-lines, receiving corps, best offensive play-callers and 7th in the AFC in rushing? Also true.

So, for a guy who walks on water, I might have expected more than 7 wins.


Again, I'm guessing you never watched Elway play if you think what Cutler did last year puts him in the same universe.

Elway takes that team to the playoffs. He would have willed this team to a win in the last three games... not crapped his pants against Buffalo.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 02:43 PM
That and 75 cents will you a mediocre cup of coffee.

I think it is safe to say Bear fans will NOT be clamoring for Orton to be back in Chi-town in the future. They have a more well rounded team then we do, hopefully we get back to that point sometime in the future.

We'll see if you are right after the season.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:46 PM
Whatever, Rivers should have made the Probowl instead of Cutler.

Peyton Manning 3rd year in the NFL 571 Attempts 15 Ints
Jay Cutler 3rd year in the league 616 attemps 18 ints

You left out that Manning threw 33 TDs against Quitler's 25.

Manning: 33 TDs 15 INTs (QB Rating 95)

Quitler: 25 TDs 18 INTs (QB Rating 86)


If you want to trot stats out, at least do it correctly.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 02:46 PM
Elway takes that team to the playoffs. He would have willed this team to a win in the last three games... not crapped his pants against Buffalo.

Elway had a much better team to play on and he didn't will his team to ANY playoff wins in his first three years. Oh and Elway did crap his pants in many losses in his early career, one of which was against Pittsburgh at home!

This isn't an Elway vs Cutler thread. This is just the fact that Cutler is going to be a very good QB. My opion is that he is going to be a great QB.

24champ
07-12-2009, 02:48 PM
No defense? True.


Cutler is 21-3 when the defense shows up (only allowing 20 points or less). Hmm imagine that...

Unfortunately last season what we saw at the end was a D that did a lot of laying down and getting butt***ed by the other team.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:49 PM
yeah, and after 3 years Elway had been to the playoffs 3 times and in his 2 full seasons out of the 1st 3 the team's record was something like 24-8. after 10 years Elway had led the Broncos to the super bowl 3 times.
and for the most part he did it alone. Jay has had a better supporting cast and has done less with it than John did with nothing.

It's just embarrassing to watch these people drag Elway's name through the **** to stick up for a guy who quit on them.

As I said, I'm guessing a lot of these people never actually watched Elway play a game, much less in his early days.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 02:50 PM
True.

Any QB that throws as many INTs as Cutler/Favre did last year has no business in Hawaii.

You're right. Drew Brees going was an embarrassment to the National Football League.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
What kind of argument is that? Try to stick to one topic. Are we taking about Denver v. Chicago with regards to total team quality, or are we talking about Cutler being the next Elway?

For all the nut-swinging you're doing for Cutler, the guy only put up 7 wins last year.

8. If you want to claim we won the SD game on a technicality, fine. Then we also lost the Miami game on a technicality.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
It's just embarrassing to watch these people drag Elway's name through the **** to stick up for a guy who quit on them.

As I said, I'm guessing a lot of these people never actually watched Elway play a game, much less in his early days.

You brought up Elway, I didn't.

and I have almost every John Elway game on DVD so don't lecture me on the greatness of Elway.

In Elway's second year he completed 54% of his passes and threw 18 TDs compared to 15 ints. He had a Defense that gave up a league low 241 points. Cutler could only be so lucky to have had a defense that good.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:53 PM
Cutler is 21-3 when the defense shows up (only allowing 20 points or less). Hmm imagine that...
.

What a ridiculous response.

Dude, how many QBs in the league wouldn't have a great record with less than 20 points against these days?

If Quitler was the messiah you widows make him out to be, we wouldn't need to qualify his stats to such a degree.

If you're trying to convince me that we should hold teams to 20 points or less.... welcome to the club. I've been saying that here (and other boards) for the last decade.

Building a complete team is indeed the goal... not pinning all of our hopes on a supposed superhero QB.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:54 PM
You brought up Elway, I didn't.

and I have almost every John Elway game on DVD so don't lecture me on the greatness of Elway.

Ummm, yea ya did, sport.

er fans can continue to slander and rip on Cutler for any and everything, and Chicago fans can take comfort in the fact that they have their "Elway" and paid a pittance for him.[/i]


If I ever brought him up before that, it was likely to illustrate what a franchise QB IS, and what it's not. (Quitler)

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 02:55 PM
Wow Cutler being called their Elway is just disgusting. He is no Elway besides an arm.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 02:56 PM
Ummm, yea ya did, sport.




If I ever brought him up before that, it was likely to illustrate what a franchise QB IS, and what it's not. (Quitler)


I said "Cutler was Chicago's "Elway"". In quotes. That means he was their franchise QB. That is hardly comparing Cutler to Elway... sport.

Popps
07-12-2009, 02:56 PM
Cutler could only be so lucky to have had a defense that good.

And Ewlay would have been so lucky to have an offense as good as Quitler has had.

It works both ways.

Bottom line, Elway was getting his team to the playoffs by year 3, not crapping his pants against a marginal team like Buffalo.... at home.... with the playoffs on the line.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 02:58 PM
I said "Cutler was Chicago's "Elway"". In quotes. That means he was their franchise QB. That is hardly comparing Cutler to Elway... sport.

He is no franchise QB yet. Can't figure out why people are saying that.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 03:00 PM
And Ewlay would have been so lucky to have an offense as good as Quitler has had.

It works both ways.

Bottom line, Elway was getting his team to the playoffs by year 3, not crapping his pants against a marginal team like Buffalo.... at home.... with the playoffs on the line.

Elway "crapped his pants" as you put it, at home to a 9-7 heavily underdog Pitsburgh team. Denver was 10 point favorites. That was the worst home loss Denver suffered until the '96 Jag debacle. With 3 minutes left in the game Elway throws an Int which is returned to the Denver 1 yard line setting up the win for Pittsburgh.

Even the greats have bad games. I guess Cutler is not afforded such games.

telluride
07-12-2009, 03:03 PM
You just knew this thread was going to be entertaining.

So, in that spirit, I'll play. Here's my brief takeaway of the situation:

1. Cutler has not really improved in his 3 years in the league. By every important measure -- his footwork, his reads, his leadership, his decision-making, his W-L record, he has regressed.
2. Cutler is likely to remain at his current level, or actually further regress, in all these important areas. Moreover, he's also going to suffer increased and lengthier health issues (mood spikes, lethargy, fugue states, increased recovery times, etc) simply as a normal and unfortunate result of his Type 1 diabetes.
3. All that said, Cutler's still a good QB. He's simply not the correct QB for what McDaniels is trying to build here. He's not smart enough, he doesn't play a controlled game, he's resistant to instruction and constructive criticism, he's immature, and he's overly reliant on his very good arm.

Cutler is, essentially, a younger Brett Farve -- albeit one with a drinking problem and Type 1 diabetes. McDaniels wants a Tom Brady-type: someone with decent physical skills but superior mental skills and work ethic. And, the reality is, you win more Super Bowls with the latter type than with the former.

24champ
07-12-2009, 03:05 PM
What a ridiculous response.


Yeah...I liked how you cut out the last part about the D. Interesting.

Lets just ignore the D, much like the current **** ups in the FO have done this offseason. How about that D-Line you keep harping about for 5 years? You haven't said a ****ing peep about it this offseason. You just ignored it, just like your BFF McDaniels. INSTEAD you spend your posts crying about Cutler was such a mistake and a loser. You can't get over Cutler, how many polls have you done this offseason to justify trading Cutler? How many Polls on the defense? I'm willing to bet you spent more posts this offseason on Cutler than you did on the defense.


Dude, how many QBs in the league wouldn't have a great record with less than 20 points against these days?

You tell me. All I pointed out, is when we have a capable defense. Cutler can win games for us. Pretty simple concept. When the Bears had a capable team, capable special teams, capable running back. I didn't see Orton in the playoffs for some odd reason. Wonder why?

24champ
07-12-2009, 03:06 PM
And Ewlay

What's disgusting is you can't even spell his ****ing name right.

Popps
07-12-2009, 03:06 PM
Even the greats have bad games. I guess Cutler is not afforded such games.

Yea, check the offensive outputs of the other team in the Buffalo game this year, v. the Jags game in 96. Just a wee bit different.

Are all greats allowed a bad game? Sure. But Elway got his team to the playoffs... probably worse teams than we saw Quitler just lead to 7-9.

But, you feel free to keep dragging Elway's name through the mud, comparing him to a whiney bitch like Cutler.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 03:13 PM
You left out that Manning threw 33 TDs against Quitler's 25.

Manning: 33 TDs 15 INTs (QB Rating 95)

Quitler: 25 TDs 18 INTs (QB Rating 86)


If you want to trot stats out, at least do it correctly.
Says the guy who stated that Cutler had almost as many INT's as TD's, since shown to be hogwash. Hilarious!

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 03:15 PM
McDaniels wants a Tom Brady-type: someone with decent physical skills but superior mental skills and work ethic. And, the reality is, you win more Super Bowls with the latter type than with the former.
Did you just imply Kyle Orton is the next Tom Brady? ???

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 03:16 PM
What's disgusting is you can't even spell his ****ing name right.

oh oh against the ropes? Have to pull the spelling card?

Popps
07-12-2009, 03:19 PM
Says the guy who stated that Cutler had almost as many INT's as TD's, since shown to be hogwash. Hilarious!

25-18 isn't a good ratio, sir. That's part of the reason his QB average was a mild 86.

Jake Plummer was almost burned at the stake for almost that exact ratio back in 04. (27-20)

One pick every 20 throws isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

24champ
07-12-2009, 03:19 PM
oh oh against the ropes? Have to pull the spelling card?

It's not that hard to spell. Especially when it's the greatest player in our franchises history.

Popps
07-12-2009, 03:20 PM
What's disgusting is you can't even spell his ****ing name right.

Woooooooow! Typo-smack!


Very good, "Champ." You really hit it over the wall, there.

You're correct, I did indeed invert two letters via a typing error.

Fantastic work. Really solid.

Anyway, back to Quitler-nut-swinging for you.

Popps
07-12-2009, 03:21 PM
oh oh against the ropes? Have to pull the spelling card?

It's not even spelling, it's typo-smack.

But, can you blame him? What's his argument rest on? A losing QB who's done nothing in the league but whine his way off a team, threw 18 INTs last year and is no longer a Bronco.

To him, that's as good as Elway.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 03:22 PM
It's not that hard to spell. Especially when it's the greatest player in our franchises history.

Oh so its a sin to be replying and flip two letters around. I mean is that all you have left? Its one thing to continuously misspell it like he doesn't have a clue but you are choosing to harp on a one time error.

Should you have a Mod change your name to Mavis Beacon since you are apparently teaching typing now?

24champ
07-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Woooooooow! Typo-smack!



Indeed. I'd never thought I would see the day where a #1 Bronco fan, would spell Elway's name wrong. Not many people can do that, not even a 5 yr old. Pat yourself on the back there Mr. Ewlay. :thumbs:

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 03:28 PM
Indeed. I'd never thought I would see the day where a #1 Bronco fan, would spell Elway's name wrong. Not many people can do that, not even a 5 yr old. Pat yourself on the back there Mr. Ewlay. :thumbs:

Oh choosing to stay with the lame typo attack, pretty weak.

Do you go around calling out everyone who makes a simple mistake or is it just when you are flustered in an argument. Rhetorical question no need to answer! ROFL!

24champ
07-12-2009, 03:32 PM
It's not even spelling, it's typo-smack.

But, can you blame him? What's his argument rest on? A losing QB who's done nothing in the league but whine his way off a team, threw 18 INTs last year and is no longer a Bronco.

To him, that's as good as Elway.

Says the guy who can't get over Cutler, and ignores the defensive problems still lingering on this team. I'm over the Cutler crap, I'm more concerned about Orton and the defense. But hey you keep talking about Cutler.:thumbs:

Atlas
07-12-2009, 03:36 PM
He is no franchise QB yet. Can't figure out why people are saying that.

You can't deny that he is the Bear's franchise QB. Of course he is. They traded two first round picks for him. He is the Bears' franchis QB. Denver doesn't have a franchise QB, but the Bears do.

Popps
07-12-2009, 03:39 PM
You can't deny that he is the Bear's franchise QB. Of course he is. They traded two first round picks for him. He is the Bears' franchis QB. Denver doesn't have a franchise QB, but the Bears do.

Wrong.

The Chargers selected Ryan Leaf with their first pick. Did that automatically make him their "franchise" quarterback?

Franchise QBs are made on the field, not determined by what a team gave up to get them.

Cutler back-doored his way into one Pro Bowl, hasn't won **** and has character question marks.

Will he be a great QB? Probably. He's immensely talented.

Is he a "franchise" QB, of course not.

Could he be?

Ask me in 3 years, and we'll gather evidence during his first 6 years as a pro and make a determination.

People use that word WAY too loosely.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 03:39 PM
25-18 isn't a good ratio, sir. That's part of the reason his QB average was a mild 86.

Jake Plummer was almost burned at the stake for almost that exact ratio back in 04. (27-20)

One pick every 20 throws isn't exactly setting the world on fire.
I was referring to his 54 TD's and 37 INT's CAREER record...FAR better than Elway had, even TEN YEARS into his career.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 03:40 PM
You can't deny that he is the Bear's franchise QB. Of course he is. They traded two first round picks for him. He is the Bears' franchis QB. Denver doesn't have a franchise QB, but the Bears do.

Wrong they are betting he is and they very well may look foolish. They may not too.

gyldenlove
07-12-2009, 03:41 PM
25-18 isn't a good ratio, sir. That's part of the reason his QB average was a mild 86.

Jake Plummer was almost burned at the stake for almost that exact ratio back in 04. (27-20)

One pick every 20 throws isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

It was 1 pick in every 34 throws sunshine, but close.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 03:47 PM
Wrong.

The Chargers selected Ryan Leaf with their first pick. Did that automatically make him their "franchise" quarterback?

Franchise QBs are made on the field, not determined by what a team gave up to get them.

Cutler back-doored his way into one Pro Bowl, hasn't won **** and has character question marks.

Will he be a great QB? Probably. He's immensely talented.

Is he a "franchise" QB, of course not.

Could he be?

Ask me in 3 years, and we'll gather evidence during his first 6 years as a pro and make a determination.

People use that word WAY too loosely.

I guess you're definition of Franchise QB is different than mine. My definition of a franchise QB is a QB that is the unquestioned starter. The backup is only there to compliment him. The team builds it's whole offense around what this QB does best. Using this definition Jay Cutler is Chicago's franchise QB. In fact Cutler was Denver's franchise QB. He was the unquestioned starter. Shanahan built the whole offense around what he does best and I'm sure they would be looking to extend Cutler afte rthe season if Shanny was still here.

In the senario you used on Ryna Leaf, yes, he was the franchise QB when they signed him. They tried to build the team around him and he proved to be really bad.

Teams can have QBs that they think are franchise QBs only to prove them wrong. Such as in the case of Leaf.

telluride
07-12-2009, 03:48 PM
Did you just imply Kyle Orton is the next Tom Brady? ???

Nope. I suspect that Kyle's a 1-3 yr stopgap while McDaniels finds or builds his Brady-esque QB. That said, I do think Orton will have nice success in Denver, and in McD's system.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 04:10 PM
What kind of argument is that? Try to stick to one topic. Are we taking about Denver v. Chicago with regards to total team quality, or are we talking about Cutler being the next Elway?

For all the nut-swinging you're doing for Cutler, the guy only put up 7 wins last year.

No defense? True.

One of the best O-lines, receiving corps, best offensive play-callers and 7th in the AFC in rushing? Also true.

So, for a guy who walks on water, I might have expected more than 7 wins.


Again, I'm guessing you never watched Elway play if you think what Cutler did last year puts him in the same universe.

Elway takes that team to the playoffs. He would have willed this team to a win in the last three games... not crapped his pants against Buffalo.

damn right! Elway was almost unstoppable when pressure was on. had he been our QB for last season he would have looked and seen he needed 1 win for the playoffs and he would have carried the team into the playoffs on his own.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 04:24 PM
Did you just imply Kyle Orton is the next Tom Brady? ???

the similarities in their games and athletic abilities are comparable.

Popps
07-12-2009, 04:32 PM
I guess you're definition of Franchise QB is different than mine. My definition of a franchise QB is a QB that is the unquestioned starter. .

Then, yes... our definition is vasty different.

Plummer was our unquestioned starter for a while. I don't think anyone considered him a franchise QB. Same for guys like Jake Delhomme, Kerry Collins and a host of others now and in past years.

I Shanahan built the whole offense around what he does best .

All good coaches build the offense around what a QB does best, to an extent. (Or the running game.) Shanahan catered the offense to Griese, and then to Plummer, as well. Neither being franchise QBs. They all enjoyed relative success. I've said many times that I think Shanahan is a QB-friendly coach. Quitler won't have it so lucky in Chicago.


Teams can have QBs that they think are franchise QBs only to prove them wrong. Such as in the case of Leaf.

To me, at very minimum... a franchise QB can himself account for wins. He's a guy who build a franchise around. He's got immense physical talent as well as championship intangibles, attitude and leadership. It also involves actually PROVING it on the field, meaning... winning games. It's the kind of moniker you give to someone like Mannning, Marino Elway, Aikman and maybe even guys like Kurt Warner... but you certainly don't put anyone like Cutler in that class until he proves himself worthy.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 04:47 PM
the similarities in their games and athletic abilities are comparable.
Yes I'm sure most people would say multiple NFL and SuperBowl MVP winner Tom Brady has pretty much a carbon copy of Kyle Orton's game. Good call... :giggle:

Orton has more in common with Morton (Craig) as he is right now than he has with Brady.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 04:49 PM
It was 1 pick in every 34 throws sunshine, but close.
What? Didn't you get the memo? We're now keeping track of "almost" interceptions. Next will be "almost" completions, "almost" TD's and "almost" sacks. We need to also keep track of "almost" draft picks and "almost" tickets sold.

summerdenver
07-12-2009, 04:53 PM
This season sets up everything so wonderfully.

By the end of the year it would have either validated or dispelled the myth that Jay Cutler is a looser and he was one of reasons why Broncos did not make the playoffs last year. I realize Chicago is not the defensive powerhouse of 2006 and they lack offensive weapons but there is no excuse if Jay can't win atleast 10 games in chicago.

By the same token we should also be able to validate the theory, on which Broncos seems to be banking this year, QB position is fungible and some one with a decent skill set can be coached up to be an effective starter. If Broncos can pull it off, it would be a remarkable acheievment and the coaching staff deserves all the kudos.

Let the games begin.....

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:00 PM
I agree this debate should be pretty easy to judge fairly quickly. Granted it would be a little bit more accurate if the strength of schedules were the same. I can't remember how close they are so it may be close anyways.

But it will be interesting to see. The best part is this has been such a polarizing offseason that the I told you so's from the ones who are right will be AWESOME!

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 05:06 PM
The best part is this has been such a polarizing offseason that the I told you so's from the ones who are right will be AWESOME!
I plan to take the high road. Ha!

Kaylore
07-12-2009, 05:09 PM
I think Cutler will do well for a game or too early in the season. Everyone will tell him how awesome he is and people here will dance around about how stupid we were to trade them. Then I think once he's reestablished to himself that he's awesome he'll revert to his old ways: out drinking the night before games, costly mistakes in the redzone and crazy-ass throws when his protection breaks down. I think his poor line, average receivers and below average coordinators will show especially his first year in the new system. I think by year's end he will have Grossman-like numbers except with fewer wins. The town and media will blame the coordinator and poor supporting cast. This will be a recurring thing for his whole career.

I think Orton is never going to be as gifted as Cutler, but I think he'll start looking like a very good player for us very soon. The awesome line, good coordinator, improved defense, better receivers and renewed emphasis on the running game will make Orton look like Drew Brees early in his career. By season's end people on this board will still be whining about Cutler but they will feel better about Orton as a starter.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:13 PM
I plan to take the high road. Ha!

Yeah being graceful in defeat is always wise....... :angel:

Atlas
07-12-2009, 05:21 PM
I think Cutler will do well for a game or too early in the season. Everyone will tell him how awesome he is and people here will dance around about how stupid we were to trade them. Then I think once he's reestablished to himself that he's awesome he'll revert to his old ways: out drinking the night before games, costly mistakes in the redzone and crazy-ass throws when his protection breaks down. I think his poor line, average receivers and below average coordinators will show especially his first year in the new system. I think by year's end he will have Grossman-like numbers except with fewer wins. The town and media will blame the coordinator and poor supporting cast. This will be a recurring thing for his whole career.

I think Orton is never going to be as gifted as Cutler, but I think he'll start looking like a very good player for us very soon. The awesome line, good coordinator, improved defense, better receivers and renewed emphasis on the running game will make Orton look like Drew Brees early in his career. By season's end people on this board will still be whining about Cutler but they will feel better about Orton as a starter.


What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight, but don't mention anything about Orton's drinking problem. He is legendary in Chicago for his drunkeness. Doesn't that work both ways?

Here is a picture of him slobbing on some guys crank.
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/orton8-3.jpg

Yeah no drinking problem there.

Popps
07-12-2009, 05:22 PM
I agree this debate should be pretty easy to judge fairly quickly

Not so sure I agree with that part.

Clearly, Cutler on physical ability alone will put up some good stats early on.
So, the nut-swingers will be out in force, professing their devotion for a guy who quit on them.

Conversely, we're changing offensive and defensive schemes, and working in about a 40% roster turnover. There's a good chance that the real improvement for us won't be seen right up front, rather as the season goes on, and into next year.

I don't give a **** if Jay Quitler throws 47 TDs next season. I just want the Denver Broncos to return to a Superbowl, and that process starts by rebuilding the mess we had into a real team. That takes time.

I think it'll be very difficult to evaluate this whole thing, though I guarantee you people will be claiming victory every week.

I'll certainly enjoy a laugh at Quitler's expense if there's one to be had, but my real concern is the Broncos, not some bratty QB playing in the NFC.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 05:23 PM
What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight, but don't mention anything about Orton's drinking problem. He is legendary in Chicago for his drunkeness. Doesn't that work both ways?

Here is a picture of him slobbing on some guys crank.
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/orton8-3.jpg

Yeah no drinking problem there.
I sure hope he was drunk in this photo. ;D

Atlas
07-12-2009, 05:24 PM
I sure hope he was drunk in this photo. ;D

That still wouldn't be an excuse. I have been drunk plenty of times and I never paid lip service to some guys pecker.

24champ
07-12-2009, 05:25 PM
What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight, but don't mention anything about Orton's drinking problem. He is legendary in Chicago for his drunkeness. Doesn't that work both ways?

Here is a picture of him slobbing on some guys crank.
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/orton8-3.jpg

Yeah no drinking problem there.

:giggle:

Kahn has this warped view that all NFL players stay in their bedrooms studying the playbook before the game. Kahn never was downtown seeing Cutler drunk. He just has second and third hand info from someone else who probably was on the light rail.

Popps
07-12-2009, 05:25 PM
What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight.

Word is, Orton has turned himself around... made apologies for his behavior and is now settled down.

He also doesn't have the Beetus.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 05:26 PM
Not so sure I agree with that part.

Clearly, Cutler on physical ability alone will put up some good stats early on.
So, the nut-swingers will be out in force, professing their devotion for a guy who quit on them.

Conversely, we're changing offensive and defensive schemes, and working in about a 40% roster turnover. There's a good chance that the real improvement for us won't be seen right up front, rather as the season goes on, and into next year.

I don't give a **** if Jay Quitler throws 47 TDs next season. I just want the Denver Broncos to return to a Superbowl, and that process starts by rebuilding the mess we had into a real team. That takes time.

I think it'll be very difficult to evaluate this whole thing, though I guarantee you people will be claiming victory every week.

I'll certainly enjoy a laugh at Quitler's expense if there's one to be had, but my real concern is the Broncos, not some bratty QB playing in the NFC.
Let's just see if he can even beat out Simms once the bullets fly.

Atlas
07-12-2009, 05:27 PM
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/bob_blog/orton.jpg

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:27 PM
What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight, but don't mention anything about Orton's drinking problem. He is legendary in Chicago for his drunkeness. Doesn't that work both ways?

Here is a picture of him slobbing on some guys crank.
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/orton8-3.jpg

Yeah no drinking problem there.

Yeah no one argues he had drinking problems early in his career. The difference and it has been pointed out over and over again is Orton owned that he had issues and has since grown up gotten married and put that in check. But hey posting pictures is fun and makes for a good argument.

Please direct me to where Cutler has owned up that he likes to drink and is changing. Or does that hurt your argument too much since its not there? I mean even Shanny said he was very concerned about how he was conducting himself off the field. He also has mentioned that he was very concerned about his drinking.

If Orton hits the bottle again and this comes up I think he will be held to the same standard.

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 05:27 PM
That still wouldn't be an excuse. I have been drunk plenty of times and I never paid lip service to some guys pecker.
Yeah...but I still really hope he was drunk. :spit:

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 05:29 PM
Yeah no one argues he had drinking problems early in his career. The difference and it has been pointed out over and over again is Orton owned that he had issues and has since grown up gotten married and put that in check. But hey posting pictures is fun and makes for a good argument.

Please direct me to where Cutler has owned up that he likes to drink and is changing. Or does that hurt your argument too much since its not there? I mean even Shanny said he was very concerned about how he was conducting himself off the field. He also has mentioned that he was very concerned about his drinking.

If Orton hits the bottle again and this comes up I think he will be held to the same standard.
That's really great.

I sure hope he was drunk in that photo. ;D

Atlas
07-12-2009, 05:29 PM
Let's just see if he can even beat out Simms once the bullets fly.

I'm not sure who I am rooting for. I have never liked left handed QBs. Is that a good reason to hope for Orton?

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:31 PM
:giggle:

Kahn has this warped view that all NFL players stay in their bedrooms studying the playbook before the game. Kahn never was downtown seeing Cutler drunk. He just has second and third hand info from someone else who probably was on the light rail.

Seriously, have you had Cutlers penis in your mouth before? You sure come after people who call out your boy with a vengeance. I mean its scary.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:32 PM
That's really great.

I sure hope he was drunk in that photo. ;D

I think the same thing every time I see that photo. Just wait until the opposing team trolls come around during the season!

24champ
07-12-2009, 05:40 PM
Seriously, have you had Cutlers penis in your mouth before? You sure come after people who call out your boy with a vengeance. I mean its scary.

It's retarded to think Cutler was the only one out there drinking. I lived downtown, seen the players do stuff. Surprised some are still in the league. It's not uncommon. Heck how many drunk Elway stories are there?

Bob's your Information Minister
07-12-2009, 05:42 PM
You guys are going to be jilted lovers for at least two more years.

Sounds like fun. I'll be here.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 05:45 PM
Word is, Orton has turned himself around... made apologies for his behavior and is now settled down.

He also doesn't have the Beetus.

Orton didn't turn himself around, he got married. And like most men, that changes their behavior. Also like most young unmarried men in their 20s, Cutler likes to go out and have good time.

And I am sure that I was not alone when it comes to drinking a little to much on weekday when I was in my 20s. But then again I not perfect like some on this board.

BroncoMan4ever
07-12-2009, 05:47 PM
You guys are going to be jilted lovers for at least two more years.

Sounds like fun. I'll be here.

it's going to be fun watching your team pay a QB, Peyton Manning type money to play like Croyle

TonyR
07-12-2009, 05:49 PM
I am sure that I was not alone when it comes to drinking a little to much on weekday when I was in my 20s.

Did you ever let it impact your job for which you were paid millions of dollars? It's one for someone in Cutler's position to drink after a game or during the week, quite another to be out on the town bombed the night before a game.

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Orton didn't turn himself around, he got married. And like most men, that changes their behavior. Also like most young unmarried men in their 20s, Cutler likes to go out and have good time.

And I am sure that I was not alone when it comes to drinking a little to much on weekday when I was in my 20s. But then again I not perfect like some on this board.

Wait so what is your definition of turning things around? I have seen you make this comment before and its funny. Getting married and growing up and becoming responsible is turning things around.

Is there a definition that says you can only turn things around in your life if you are single. If so what is the definition if you get married and do it?

elsid13
07-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Did you ever let it impact your job for which you were paid millions of dollars? It's one for someone in Cutler's position to drink after a game or during the week, quite another to be out on the town bombed the night before a game.

If Cutler was unable to perform or showed up hung over/drunk do you think Shanahan would have let him on the field??? What we have is heresy that he was unable to perform because someone saw him out drinking the night before a game. Just because someone goes drinking "heavy" 8 hours before a game doesn't mean they are not ready to go. Young men and women in their 20s go out drinking all the time before doing their job. Freaking Wall Street and Congress is full of them.

TonyR
07-12-2009, 05:58 PM
I sure hope he was drunk in that photo.

And I sure hope Jay was drunk the night before the home Raiders game, if not during it. There has to be some kind of excuse for that debacle. Not to mention the last three games of the season when he couldn't squeak out either a win or a QB rating above 75...

Popps
07-12-2009, 05:58 PM
Orton didn't turn himself around, he got married. And like most men, that changes their behavior. Also like most young unmarried men in their 20s, Cutler likes to go out and have good time.

And I am sure that I was not alone when it comes to drinking a little to much on weekday when I was in my 20s. But then again I not perfect like some on this board.

Oh, I was far from perfect, myself.

I just meant that Orton seems to have owned up to partying a bit too much, and changed his lifestyle.

"I'm still the same guy," Orton said. "I'm still a fun guy and like to hang with my teammates. It's not like I'm trying to live in a hole or anything. But [I] certainly have to be careful and not put myself or my family in jeopardy."

He's active politically, with charity and has generally tried to make-over his image after those early photos surfaced.

Even after the trade, he wasted no time. He flew into Denver and immediately made the rounds, seeking out staff and players to introduce himself and his family, which made a big impression.


If you believe what you hear and read, Cutler hasn't exactly had this change of attitude just yet. Hopefully he will, at least for his health's sake.

Popps
07-12-2009, 06:00 PM
You guys are going to be jilted lovers for at least two more years.

Sounds like fun. I'll be here.

Not all of us, you lardy virgin.

Some of us are damned excited for this franchise.

In fact, most of us are. But, the squeaky wheels always make the most noise.

TonyR
07-12-2009, 06:02 PM
Young men and women in their 20s go out drinking all the time before doing their job. Freaking Wall Street and Congress is full of them.

That's a fair point, but I think the mental and physical demands of QB'ing an NFL game far outweigh anything those 20somethings are doing. An NFL player needs to be in top condition once a week. I don't think it's much to ask for them to take in easy on game night, particularly the QB.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-12-2009, 06:02 PM
Nothing you guys say can change the fact Kyle Orton is your quarterback.

Nothing.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 06:05 PM
Wait so what is your definition of turning things around? I have seen you make this comment before and its funny. Getting married and growing up and becoming responsible is turning things around.

Is there a definition that says you can only turn things around in your life if you are single. If so what is the definition if you get married and do it?

Turning yourself around means in my mind are when an individuals have extremely anti-socially issue(gang/criminal connections) or have deviant behavior (addiction) and get themselves out of it. It not about your material status.

Getting married doesn't make you grow up, it just change your social norms and social network. And the social norm for most single 20s years old are to go have some drinks.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 06:05 PM
That's a fair point, but I think the mental and physical demands of QB'ing an NFL game far outweigh anything those 20somethings are doing. An NFL player needs to be in top condition once a week. I don't think it's much to ask for them to take in easy on game night, particularly the QB.

This applies in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM, but I always shot better if I drank till vomiting the night before... and I played the best game of my life in a concussion and don't remember any of it.

Florida_Bronco
07-12-2009, 06:07 PM
Nothing you guys say can change the fact that I'm still a fat, ugly virgin.

Nothing.

Finally, a decent post from Bobo.

Blueflame
07-12-2009, 06:07 PM
Not all of us, you lardy virgin.

Some of us are damned excited for this franchise.

In fact, most of us are. But, the squeaky wheels always make the most noise.

Who Posted:

ApaOps5 26
footstepsfrom#27 25
Popps 21
Atlas 15
24champ 14
elsid13 9
BroncoMan4ever 9
TheReverend 8
DBroncos4life 6
TonyR 6
rastaman 4
gyldenlove 4
TheChamp 4
DarkHorse30 3
telluride 3
Mr Chatterboodamn 3
Pseudofool 2
Rusty Shackleford 2
BABronco 2
broncofan7 2
Bob's your Information Minister 2
Broncos4tw 1
OCBronco 1
Northman 1
Kaylore 1
outdoor_miner 1
mizzoutigers 1
azbroncfan 1
oubronco 1
Broncos dude 1
Blueflame 1
Cito Pelon 1
DaFace 1
SouthStndJunkie 1
bronconia 1

:poke: :~ohyah!:

theAPAOps5
07-12-2009, 06:09 PM
I am both honored and embarrassed that I made the top of that list. That is a strange feeling. But it means I am spending too much time away from my new project and with that I better go and I will talk to you all again soon.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 06:09 PM
That's a fair point, but I think the mental and physical demands of QB'ing an NFL game far outweigh anything those 20somethings are doing. An NFL player needs to be in top condition once a week. I don't think it's much to ask for them to take in easy on game night, particularly the QB.


All we have is heresy, and Cutler was never benched by either Shanahan or Bates because he wasn't ready to go. And don't you think that men who's job were on the line would have fixed that if it was a problem?

footstepsfrom#27
07-12-2009, 06:11 PM
And I sure hope Jay was drunk the night before the home Raiders game, if not during it. There has to be some kind of excuse for that debacle. Not to mention the last three games of the season when he couldn't squeak out either a win or a QB rating above 75...
Yeah...but I sure hope he was drunk for that photo.

DBroncos4life
07-12-2009, 06:15 PM
I am both honored and embarrassed that I made the top of that list. That is a strange feeling. But it means I am spending too much time away from my new project and with that I better go and I will talk to you all again soon.

I wasted enough time in the cutler fired a guy via text message thread. popps by far and away has more posts about cutler then anyone this off-season. :thumbsup:

elsid13
07-12-2009, 06:15 PM
This applies in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM, but I always shot better if I drank till vomiting the night before... and I played the best game of my life in a concussion and don't remember any of it.


Don't worry there are number of pro athletes that have done something similar

David Wells- Extremely hung over the day of his no hitter.
Sonny Jorgerson (Washington redskins) -admits that he played games drunk.

TheReverend
07-12-2009, 06:54 PM
Don't worry there are number of pro athletes that have done something similar

David Wells- Extremely hung over the day of his no hitter.
Sonny Jorgerson (Washington redskins) -admits that he played games drunk.

Don't forget Clinton Portis on his epic day vs KC. In fact, it was the vets that forced him to get ****-faced the night before.

DBroncos4life
07-12-2009, 07:08 PM
Don't worry there are number of pro athletes that have done something similar

David Wells- Extremely hung over the day of his no hitter.
Sonny Jorgerson (Washington redskins) -admits that he played games drunk.
Aren't there story's of Babe Ruth hitting home runs while smoking cigars? Regardless that guy played drunk.

24champ
07-12-2009, 07:41 PM
Don't forget Clinton Portis on his epic day vs KC. In fact, it was the vets that forced him to get ****-faced the night before.

And we have an owner that makes decisions while drunk...

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 08:09 AM
You brought up Elway, I didn't.

and I have almost every John Elway game on DVD so don't lecture me on the greatness of Elway.

In Elway's second year he completed 54% of his passes and threw 18 TDs compared to 15 ints. He had a Defense that gave up a league low 241 points. Cutler could only be so lucky to have had a defense that good.

Kind of makes me wonder about how much Dan Reeves and the overall teams he put together had to do with Bronco success as much as Elway.

bpc
07-13-2009, 08:14 AM
Who Posted:

ApaOps5 26
footstepsfrom#27 25
Popps 21
Atlas 15
24champ 14
elsid13 9
BroncoMan4ever 9
TheReverend 8
DBroncos4life 6
TonyR 6
rastaman 4
gyldenlove 4
TheChamp 4
DarkHorse30 3
telluride 3
Mr Chatterboodamn 3
Pseudofool 2
Rusty Shackleford 2
BABronco 2
broncofan7 2
Bob's your Information Minister 2
Broncos4tw 1
OCBronco 1
Northman 1
Kaylore 1
outdoor_miner 1
mizzoutigers 1
azbroncfan 1
oubronco 1
Broncos dude 1
Blueflame 1
Cito Pelon 1
DaFace 1
SouthStndJunkie 1
bronconia 1

:poke: :~ohyah!:

I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE IS 9 PAGES OF THIS ****! ha ha. Grossman compared to Cutler? Some of these folks will reach at anything to make their argument legit.

broncofan2438
07-13-2009, 08:18 AM
Enough said. Cutler is nothing special, but is opinion. Go to the playoffs, win a game there. DONT THROW DAMN INTS IN THE RED ZONE. I will take Orton over him any day. F- that overhyped , arrogant ass,. You will never win Cutler with them Wr's. I can't wait till we whoop his ass in 3rd preseason game.


Couldnt have said it better!

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 08:25 AM
wow....

its funny how people LOVE KC Joyner and his stat system when it works in their favor

but when he posts something like this people discredit him

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Don't forget Clinton Portis on his epic day vs KC. In fact, it was the vets that forced him to get ****-faced the night before.

where did you read/hear this?

TonyR
07-13-2009, 08:26 AM
More from Joyner today on this topic here:
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/sorry-bears-fans-cutler-isnt-the-answer/

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 08:32 AM
where did you read/hear this?

There was a Portis NFLN special a year or two ago. He talks about that, zone blocking, and how Snyder made the deal happen.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 08:44 AM
. . . . . .My gripe with McDaniels trying to trade for Cassell . . . . ..

If McD had actually tried to trade for Cassell, he would have got him.

The FO just fielded some calls inquiring about the possibility. It amazes me how this has been blown up into an urban legend.

oubronco
07-13-2009, 08:47 AM
More from Joyner today on this topic here:
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/sorry-bears-fans-cutler-isnt-the-answer/

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.

didn't work out to bad for Favre

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 09:15 AM
More from Joyner today on this topic here:
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/sorry-bears-fans-cutler-isnt-the-answer/

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.
Easily explained by playing for a team that gave up 28 pts/ game last year and had no true threat of a running game. Teams were able to sit back in cover 2 and force him to make shorter throws --hence the low YPA---forcing the ball into traffic was a product of him having to play catch up to to re-establish momentum--all in only his 2nd full season as a starter.

TonyR
07-13-2009, 09:21 AM
Easily explained...

As long as you have yourself convinced that's really all that matters.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 09:39 AM
Watching this Cutler debate here is curious for me.

I have been an NFL die hard for 35+ years and there is something that has held true for a long time.

When your Defense completely ****ing sucks, and your Running Game completely ****ing sucks, your team finishes 3-13 or 4-12. Not 8-8.

After 13 games last year we were 8-5 with a completely worthless Running Game and an off the charts embarrassment of a Defense.

And the main reason we were 8-5, is now gathering his mail in Chicago.

Losing Cutler was devastating for this team.

Short of just simply trying to make yourself feel better, I am not sure why anyone would speak as if we did well in this exchange of talent.

Don't make me laugh.

Impacting, ok. Devastating, no.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 09:42 AM
As long as you have yourself convinced that's really all that matters.

The only way we don't end up picking in the low-mid 20's next year is if Cutler gets hurt.....your attempts to cast Cutler as something other than an above average, Carson Palmer class of QB are futile--Are you sure the author wasn't Seth Joyner? LOL

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 09:43 AM
Don't make me laugh.

Impacting, ok. Devastating, no.

and actually the running game was not that bad.....

the team was 3rd in the league in Yards per attempt last year....

TonyR
07-13-2009, 09:46 AM
the team was 3rd in the league in Yards per attempt last year....

The Cutler fanboys will tell you that's because of Jay Cutler. So our running game was good because of him, but he didn't perform all that well largely because of our poor running game. You can't make this stuff up!

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 09:52 AM
and actually the running game was not that bad.....

the team was 3rd in the league in Yards per attempt last year....

B/c after KC handled us playing cover 2 and Tampa as well--teams began playing that--and it's strong point is not stopping the run.

Additionally, when your defense gives up 28/game--how likely is it that a team's running game is going to be able to be utilized in a fashion that would dictate tempo? not very likely at all

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 09:54 AM
The Cutler fanboys will tell you that's because of Jay Cutler. So our running game was good because of him, but he didn't perform all that well largely because of our poor running game. You can't make this stuff up!

'Cutler fanboys'? LOL--more like those of us who can be objective about talent when we see it---even when they do not play for our beloved Broncos any longer....

gyldenlove
07-13-2009, 09:56 AM
There is a story that the drivers who won the 1953 24 hour endurance race at Le Mans were drunk while they raced, if you can do a 24 hour endurance race drunk you can play a little football.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 09:57 AM
There is a story that the drivers who won the 1953 24 hour endurance race at Le Mans were drunk while they raced, if you can do a 24 hour endurance race drunk you can play a little football.

I like pie.

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 09:59 AM
B/c after KC handled us playing cover 2 and Tampa as well--teams began playing that--and it's strong point is not stopping the run.

Additionally, when your defense gives up 28/game--how likely is it that a team's running game is going to be able to be utilized in a fashion that would dictate tempo? not very likely at all

so we started games down 28-0?? thats what I'm not understanding about the arguments made here...so our offense was explosive and our defense sucked...doesnt that put us on even terms

the games start out 0-0....the truth of the matter is we couldnt score as much as we gave up...the offense was not this machine that is being portrayed by some of you...it was a high profile, flashy offense that was second to last in the leauge in turning the ball over

when you turn the ball over that many times you have a problem

Beantown Bronco
07-13-2009, 10:00 AM
There is a story that the drivers who won the 1953 24 hour endurance race at Le Mans were drunk while they raced, if you can do a 24 hour endurance race drunk you can play a little football.

Damn. How many of these do you think they went through:

http://www.biorelief.com/travel-urinals/stadiumpal.html

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 10:04 AM
so we started games down 28-0?? thats what I'm not understanding about the arguments made here...so our offense was explosive and our defense sucked...doesnt that put us on even terms

the games start out 0-0....the truth of the matter is we couldnt score as much as we gave up...the offense was not this machine that is being portrayed by some of you...it was a high profile, flashy offense that was second to last in the leauge in turning the ball over

when you turn the ball over that many times you have a problem

I agree--and Jay certainly played a role--but to expect Jay not to improve on that and other aspects of his game is disingenuous--

gyldenlove
07-13-2009, 10:07 AM
Damn. How many of these do you think they went through:

http://www.biorelief.com/travel-urinals/stadiumpal.html

In endurance racing you just let loose in the car, why do you think they have carbon fiber seats? they wipe down easily. Modern race suits have absorbant material build in the crotch like some bike shorts do.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 10:22 AM
And what do you base this statement on?

Guts.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 10:28 AM
Guts.

Can I refer you to a great Gastroenterologist? Hilarious!

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 10:53 AM
He missed one game, due to a "severe injury" an ankle injury...um ok.

Still the question is, if his Bears team was decent. Why was it that he couldn't "lead" them to the playoffs? If the Broncos were decent, why would he lead us to the playoffs if he couldn't do the same for the Bears?

Good Lord, maybe you should stop crying until you see what happens in preseason.

Look - I changed my avatar just for you.

cousinal11
07-13-2009, 11:01 AM
Not necessarily, the new offense is predicated on quick reads and releases to get the defense on their heels and then going for a big play once they have them off balance.

So Orton doesn't have to be as mobile as Cutler had to be in the Shanny offense. Tom Brady and Cassell are far from mobile QB's and they do alright in that offense.

Cassell is pretty mobile.


Edited because maybe he's not that mobile. Sacked 47 times last year.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 11:05 AM
Cassell is pretty mobile.

He is very fast actually

cousinal11
07-13-2009, 11:07 AM
He is very fast actually

I thought I remembered watching him scramble for good yardage a number of times last year. Checking his game log, it must have been the one game I watched.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 11:20 AM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/H6NkcvsX4Rw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/H6NkcvsX4Rw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

What an excellent response. No words, no arguing stats ... just a clip that says it all :thumbs:

24champ
07-13-2009, 11:23 AM
Look - I changed my avatar just for you.

Good for you Cito.

Care to answer the question I posed or is changing avatars the best you can do?Ha!

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 11:25 AM
Good for you Cito.

Care to answer the question I posed or is changing avatars the best you can do?Ha!

I've answered it many a time. But, you're so far in the depths of depression you just don't listen.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 11:47 AM
Cassell is pretty mobile.


Edited because maybe he's not that mobile. Sacked 47 times last year.

Mobility is nothing when you freeze and hold onto the football. He did that but got better as the season went on.

DarkHorse30
07-13-2009, 12:03 PM
Easily explained by playing for a team that gave up 28 pts/ game last year and had no true threat of a running game. Teams were able to sit back in cover 2 and force him to make shorter throws --hence the low YPA---forcing the ball into traffic was a product of him having to play catch up to to re-establish momentum--all in only his 2nd full season as a starter.

Denver's rushing yardage ranked #12 last year, and they had a higher Ypa than they did in 2005 (4.8 vs. 4.7) - side note here, Plummer made the playoffs that year....and every year he was here.

So, in spite of injuries, the rushing attack of Denver was not as bad as some think......look at Chicago with an NFL ranked #24 (apparently twice as bad as the "horrible" Broncos).

Rushing 2008: Denver - Chicago

Yds 1882 1673
Yds/game 116.4 104.6
Att/game 24.2 27.1
Avg 4.8 3.9
1st downs 103 98
1st down % 26.6 22.6 (only NE averaged higher than Denver @ 28.3)
TDs 15 15


Blame the defense for Cutler's troubles? When has Denver's defense been a force of nature? When has it been anything other than a tag-along (I'm guessing about 20+ years) to a great offense that wins games.

Cutler needed do to more than just show up and throw fast....he needed to win games and get into the playoffs, in order to earn my respect. He did neither, so at this point, he is worth about as much as Denver traded him to Chicago for. It's a done deal. Whining about "what might happen if Cutler grows a brain next year" is about as pointless at looking at yesterday's lottery numbers.

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 12:07 PM
What's funny is you bash Cutler for drinking everynight, but don't mention anything about Orton's drinking problem. He is legendary in Chicago for his drunkeness. Doesn't that work both ways?

Here is a picture of him slobbing on some guys crank.
http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/orton8-3.jpg

Yeah no drinking problem there.

Of course it was a problem! And thank goodness he's received treatment and put that behavior behind him. By all accounts he's overcome that part of his life and moved forward. If Orton was still a raging drunk and allowed it to affect his play, I'd be pissed.

In fact to kind of throw this right back at you, why don't you consider the fact he was a raging alcoholic during his early years in the league and has since gone clean when whining about his performances? After he got treatment his play and persona in the locker room changed dramatically. So much so that teammates and coaches saw a significant difference. Dry Orton is much different player and leader than drunk Orton.

If Cutler does the same thing, and for his personal safety I hope he also goes through such a change, then I expect even more dramatic improvement. Unfortunately Cutler began hitting the sauce in Chi-town as soon as he got there and doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. Why should he? He's gotten everything he's wanted to this point and sees no reason to change.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Denver's rushing yardage ranked #12 last year, and they had a higher Ypa than they did in 2005 (4.8 vs. 4.7) - side note here, Plummer made the playoffs that year....and every year he was here.

So, in spite of injuries, the rushing attack of Denver was not as bad as some think......look at Chicago with an NFL ranked #24 (apparently twice as bad as the "horrible" Broncos).

Rushing 2008: Denver - Chicago

Yds 1882 1673
Yds/game 116.4 104.6
Att/game 24.2 27.1
Avg 4.8 3.9
1st downs 103 98
1st down % 26.6 22.6 (only NE averaged higher than Denver @ 28.3)
TDs 15 15


Blame the defense for Cutler's troubles? When has Denver's defense been a force of nature? When has it been anything other than a tag-along (I'm guessing about 20+ years) to a great offense that wins games.

Cutler needed to to more than just show up and throw fast....he needed to win games and get into the playoffs, in order to earn my respect. He did neither, so at this point, he is worth about as much as Denver traded him to Chicago for. It's a done deal. Whining about "what might happen if Cutler grows a brain next year" is about as pointless at looking at yesterday's lottery numbers.

For you to contend that defenses giving up 26 and 28 points per game did not have an influence on our Qb's play and the overall team's record lets me know all I need to know about your football 'insight'(since when did Denver have a pace setting defense--so foolish--how about a defense giving up around 20 pts/game??That WAS pretty standard around here)........additionally, our rushing attempts were not as high as in 2005,were they? Why would you think that our rushing attempts were not as high in 2008 as they were in 2005? Perhaps b/c our defense was sieve......

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 12:18 PM
Denver's rushing yardage ranked #12 last year, and they had a higher Ypa than they did in 2005 (4.8 vs. 4.7) - side note here, Plummer made the playoffs that year....and every year he was here.

So, in spite of injuries, the rushing attack of Denver was not as bad as some think......look at Chicago with an NFL ranked #24 (apparently twice as bad as the "horrible" Broncos).

Rushing 2008: Denver - Chicago

Yds 1882 1673
Yds/game 116.4 104.6
Att/game 24.2 27.1
Avg 4.8 3.9
1st downs 103 98
1st down % 26.6 22.6 (only NE averaged higher than Denver @ 28.3)
TDs 15 15


Blame the defense for Cutler's troubles? When has Denver's defense been a force of nature? When has it been anything other than a tag-along (I'm guessing about 20+ years) to a great offense that wins games.

Cutler needed to to more than just show up and throw fast....he needed to win games and get into the playoffs, in order to earn my respect. He did neither, so at this point, he is worth about as much as Denver traded him to Chicago for. It's a done deal. Whining about "what might happen if Cutler grows a brain next year" is about as pointless at looking at yesterday's lottery numbers.

What is pointless is the focus of this article stating that cutler took some chances--no ****. He played on a defense giving up an average of 4 TD's game. And even more pointless is your inability to judge Cutler as an up and coming upper echelon QB who is entering into his THIRD full season as a starter...I will certainly revisit your non sense during this upcoming season....

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 12:42 PM
What is pointless is the focus of this article stating that cutler took some chances--no ****. He played on a defense giving up an average of 4 TD's game. And even more pointless is your inability to judge Cutler as an up and coming upper echelon QB who is entering into his THIRD full season as a starter...I will certainly revisit your non sense during this upcoming season....

again, for you to say that he NEEDED to take chances in order for this team to compete isnt fair. Some of those chances ended up translating into easy points for the opposition. See the KC game log...our defense was constantly defending our half of the field because the offense was useless. Look at the Bills game, the defense made some important stops only to have Cutler give the ball away.

To paint last years team with such a broad brush isnt very fair. We were a mediocre to bad team and needed LOTS of changes. For some people its been hard to see those changes made, thats all

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 01:05 PM
again, for you to say that he NEEDED to take chances in order for this team to compete isnt fair. Some of those chances ended up translating into easy points for the opposition. See the KC game log...our defense was constantly defending our half of the field because the offense was useless. Look at the Bills game, the defense made some important stops only to have Cutler give the ball away.

To paint last years team with such a broad brush isnt very fair. We were a mediocre to bad team and needed LOTS of changes. For some people its been hard to see those changes made, thats all

And QB was the LAST change we needed. That is MY point.

vancejohnson82
07-13-2009, 01:11 PM
And QB was the LAST change we needed. That is MY point.

Ok....and some of us feel like sometimes you need to kill some dolphins to get good tuna

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 01:12 PM
Ok....and some of us feel like sometimes you need to kill some dolphins to get good tuna

LOL.:notworthy

TonyR
07-13-2009, 07:14 PM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

Reposted from another thread on the same topic.