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Bronco Rob
07-09-2009, 11:07 AM
"Woody - Starting at QB, the guy who was beat out by Rex Grossman? Throwing to whom? Michael Vick is looking better every day. I know, count on PETA to turn in their season tickets. But seriously, are there any other QB contenders even remotely available?"
-- Rich Fehr, Page, AZ



"Rich - On my ESPN show "Around The Horn," we discussed last week whether or not Vick should be allowed back this year, and I was the only one who said he had paid his debt to society and deserved a chance, as most ex-cons, to get a job in his field (football), that he couldn't pay off the myriad of bills in his bankruptcy doing construction (he has left that job this week to work with kids), and that some team would sign him, and that all the e-mails I had gotten on the subject wanted to know if "their" team, or the Broncos, could possibly sign Vick.

I think only the media think he shouldn't be permitted to play. The fans I've heard from seem to think not only should he play, but also play for (fill in a name) team.

Having said all that, the Broncos will never sign Vick. They don't want another player with a troubled past. Read: Travis Henry et al. I think the likely candidates are Oakland, of course, and Dallas, although I'm sure there are at least a dozen teams that would want to sign him if they weren't afraid of all the local attention (from the media).

Now, about the Broncos' starting quarterback, who is, without playing one snap, Kyle Orton. In minicamp I was unimpressed with him. There I go being negative again, most people will say. No, there I go being honest. Orton, as I wrote last month, will not be ranked in the top 20 in the league by anybody who has seen him play for Chicago. Denver got rid of Jay Cutler because he wouldn't return phone calls. Chicago got rid of Orton because the Bears didn't want him. Big difference.


Truth is, Chris Simms and the rookie have stronger arms. Simms has been away from playing in a game for a while, but I think you'll see him this year, and maybe earlier than some think. Maybe Orton will succeed in Josh McDaniels' West New England Offense, but he's no All-Pro, and I still don't think they'll win many games this year. He's not a long-range answer here, and I'll eat my opinion, as always, if I'm wrong. If I'm right, the world will know soon enough."




:pimp:

Ramathorn
07-09-2009, 11:16 AM
i agree wholeheartedly. Simms will be starting by week 6.

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 11:18 AM
BroncoBuff will no doubt love this. He's been on record with this for awhile.

cousinal11
07-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Denver got rid of Jay Cutler because he wouldn't return phone calls. Chicago got rid of Orton because the Bears didn't want him. Big difference.


It's going to be a long season.

BroncoMan4ever
07-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Orton is going to put up near pro bowl numbers this season. Simms will only ever see the field in the case of injury or in the rare case that we have run up the score and we put in the backups.

broncofan7
07-09-2009, 11:34 AM
And so have I with my assertion that when we start off 1-5 (beat only CLE)--we will change QB's during our bye week..........

Mountain Bronco
07-09-2009, 11:44 AM
If people ask questions about your starting QB or there is even a remote possiblity that your backup could compete for the starting spot, you usually don't have a very good starting QB. As always there are exceptions to the rule.

24champ
07-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Truth is, Chris Simms and the rookie have stronger arms. Simms has been away from playing in a game for a while, but I think you'll see him this year, and maybe earlier than some think. [/u]




:pimp:

Woody sounds pretty high on the rookie QB, Woody said Tom B. had the best throws in minicamp.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 12:12 PM
If people ask questions about your starting QB or there is even a remote possiblity that your backup could compete for the starting spot, you usually don't have a very good starting QB. As always there are exceptions to the rule.

All Woody talked about was arm strength...."I was unimpressed with how far he could throw the ball"

who cares? i was sick of passes being forced for no reason...sick of balls sailing over the heads of recievers (that was more 2007) and sick of hero throws in the red zone

so, if hes smart with the ball and understands the system, why can't he succeed? screw Woody

Smiling Assassin27
07-09-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't really give a crap where Orton ends up statistically. Woody always seems to forget that wins matter, Pro Bowl appearances do not.

24champ
07-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Denver got rid of Jay Cutler because he wouldn't return phone calls. Chicago got rid of Orton because the Bears didn't want him. Big difference.


It's going to be a long season.



http://www.learnaboutrving.com/wp-content/buckle_up.jpg

24champ
07-09-2009, 12:17 PM
All Woody talked about was arm strength...

Josh McDaniels told the team before practice, the media afterward, that Kyle Orton is Your Brand Spanking New Denver Broncos' starting quarterback. During practice with the first team, Orton threw a couple of interceptions and also threw a completion to the young man operating the music machine several yards out of bounds and threw a pass onto the distant field. And he was forced to eat the ball twice on red-zone plays.

It was not Orton's best day on the field.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_12586632

telluride
07-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Setting aside the fact that Woody's an idiot and likely wrong as always, I am curious about something. Simms is a lefty, right? I'm wondering how tough it would be for the O-line and receivers to adjust mid-season to a switch from a right-handed QB to lefty.

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 12:19 PM
A pass in the dirt or over your head looks pretty much the same whether it comes from a lefty or righty. :wiggle:

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 12:27 PM
<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at SD 23</TD><TD>(7:51) (Shotgun) J.Cutler scrambles up the middle to SD 21 for 2 yards (R.Bingham).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 8 at SD 21</TD><TD>(7:13) S.Young left tackle to SD 11 for 10 yards (C.Gordon, E.Weddle).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at SD 11</TD><TD>(6:26) J.Cutler pass short left to T.Scheffler to SD 4 for 7 yards (S.Gregory).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 3 at SD 4</TD><TD>(5:45) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to D.Graham (S.Phillips).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 3 at SD 4</TD><TD>(5:41) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle intended for E.Royal INTERCEPTED by A.Cason at SD -1. A.Cason to SD 9 for 10 yards (B.Stokley). FUMBLES (B.Stokley), recovered by SD-C.Hart at SD 9. C.Hart to SD 9 for no gain (B.Stokley).</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


That was before the fumble that wasnt a fumble when we could have put that game away

<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:51) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to T.Bell.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:47) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to B.Marshall.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:42) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short right intended for B.Marshall INTERCEPTED by K.Mitchell at BUF 1. K.Mitchell to BUF 2 for 1 yard (B.Marshall).</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Just two plays that kind of symbolize IN GAME plays that in my mind Cutler was notorious for.....

Orton can throw as many picks as he wants in MINI CAMP

24champ
07-09-2009, 12:32 PM
<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at SD 23</TD><TD>(7:51) (Shotgun) J.Cutler scrambles up the middle to SD 21 for 2 yards (R.Bingham).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 8 at SD 21</TD><TD>(7:13) S.Young left tackle to SD 11 for 10 yards (C.Gordon, E.Weddle).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at SD 11</TD><TD>(6:26) J.Cutler pass short left to T.Scheffler to SD 4 for 7 yards (S.Gregory).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 3 at SD 4</TD><TD>(5:45) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to D.Graham (S.Phillips).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 3 at SD 4</TD><TD>(5:41) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle intended for E.Royal INTERCEPTED by A.Cason at SD -1. A.Cason to SD 9 for 10 yards (B.Stokley). FUMBLES (B.Stokley), recovered by SD-C.Hart at SD 9. C.Hart to SD 9 for no gain (B.Stokley).</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


That was before the fumble that wasnt a fumble when we could have put that game away

<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:51) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to T.Bell.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:47) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to B.Marshall.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:42) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short right intended for B.Marshall INTERCEPTED by K.Mitchell at BUF 1. K.Mitchell to BUF 2 for 1 yard (B.Marshall).</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Just two plays that kind of symbolize IN GAME plays that in my mind Cutler was notorious for.....

Orton can throw as many picks as he wants in MINI CAMP

Orton wouldn't have won both games anyway...not with the D we had. So your point is moot.

broncocalijohn
07-09-2009, 12:33 PM
"Denver got rid of Jay Cutler because he wouldn't return phone calls. Chicago got rid of Orton because the Bears didn't want him. Big difference. "
I think the reason for Chicago to get rid of Orton is that Cutler was offered to him. That is the reason and why Woody makes it out for something more dramatic is assinine. Cutler is better than Orton and they got that chance to swap plus picks.

dbfan21
07-09-2009, 12:34 PM
I don't really give a crap where Orton ends up statistically. Woody always seems to forget that wins matter, Pro Bowl appearances do not.

Exactly! The only people who give more credit to stats than wins are Fantasy Football players and the media.

I'd much rather have a gutsy leader who passes for 210 YPG with 1 TD than a loose cannon who throws for 320 YPG with 1 TD and 3 INT's. The former could survive with a solid ground game (which I feel we will have this year). The latter is a result of forced throws and over-confidence.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Orton wouldn't have won both games anyway...not with the D we had. So your point is moot.

thats fine...we would have been in the same position anyway....no playoff games, no playoff wins and a second straight year that ended with an a$$ raping to the Chargers

so everyone's point is moot according to your logic...it was a lateral move from no playoffs to no playoffs

Irish Stout
07-09-2009, 12:42 PM
It's going to be a long season.

Its already been a long season.... it feels like the season hasn't ended. Seriously the disappointment from the Buffalo loss was still lingering when Shanny was canned... then a whole excruciating waiting period of speculation as to new coaches. Then new coach. Then Cutler back and forth drama for another excruciating period. Then Cutler gone. Then BMarsh drama... I just want this season to start and be over with already so that we can move past all this.

An typically I like especially long seasons.... means you've gone further than other teams.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Hopefully Orton is a gamer. I know coaches don't like it when a player is prone to mistakes in practice, esp. a QB because it messes up the entire offense's timing and it makes the coaches look like they are idiots for sticking with the guy. Perhaps this is what happened with Orton and Grossman/Griese and the Bears felt compelled to go with the QB who outshined Orton in practice.

That being said, you can't really argue with Orton's record as a starter. I don't know what it is about certain players but some just don't practice well yet they manage to be good when it really counts.

gyldenlove
07-09-2009, 01:08 PM
I don't really give a crap where Orton ends up statistically. Woody always seems to forget that wins matter, Pro Bowl appearances do not.

As has already been demonstrated, winning and going to the pro bowl is pretty correlated for QBs. 4 of the 12 playoff teams had pro bowl QBs, half of the super bowl teams had a pro bowl QB, only 2 of the 20 non playoff teams had pro bowl QBs and no team with a pro bowl QB lost more games than they won, while 11 teams who didn't have a pro bowl QB won fewer games than they lost.

cmhargrove
07-09-2009, 01:13 PM
I am just hoping on a pleasant surprise in our passing game. I think Orton can lead us this year, but i'm not holding my breath.

I want a damn running game! A Bona Fide "shove it down your throat," "pound the rock" type of offense. The passing game is there to keep teams honest and take advantage of mismatches.

Anaximines
07-09-2009, 01:16 PM
Woody sounds pretty high.....

I'm a fan of Woody myself but some of the haters might enjoy this:

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/01/does-this-mean-anything.html

Rohirrim
07-09-2009, 01:20 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=5334&dateline=1242542248

Shouldn't somebody put down newspaper?

They could use one of Woody's articles.

Kaylore
07-09-2009, 01:25 PM
Stupid article.


Woody Paige was unimpressed with him at mini camp warm up he saw before they kick the media out? Ok Woody.
Orton has a good arm. It's not awesome but this idea that it sucks is total fiction.
Chris Simms is a girl. I bet anyone here Simms never plays a down this year except due to injury.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Stupid article.


Woody Paige was unimpressed with him at mini camp warm up he saw before they kick the media out? Ok Woody.
Orton has a good arm. It's not awesome but this idea that it sucks is total fiction.
Chris Simms is a girl. I bet anyone here Simms never plays a down this year except due to injury.


You obviously never read my Chris Simms personal experience story....hes a thug...at least on the basketball court

Kaylore
07-09-2009, 01:31 PM
You obviously never read my Chris Simms personal experience story....hes a thug...at least on the basketball court

Ok...

24champ
07-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Stupid article.


Woody Paige was unimpressed with him at mini camp warm up he saw before they kick the media out? Ok Woody.
Orton has a good arm. It's not awesome but this idea that it sucks is total fiction.
Chris Simms is a girl. I bet anyone here Simms never plays a down this year except due to injury.


Orton 4 Pro Bowl/MVP.

watermock
07-09-2009, 01:36 PM
Yep, all those writers are just wrong., all of 'em.

I'm just waitimg for the next shoe to drop with BM. He'll probably take his frustration out on the Ms.,

http://www.progets.com/simpsons/pics/the%20comic%20book%20guy%20pondering.gif

"Worst Offseason, Ever"

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Yep, all those writers are just wrong., all of 'em.

I'm just waitimg for the next shoe to drop with BM. He'll probably take his frustration out on the Ms.,

http://www.progets.com/simpsons/pics/the%20comic%20book%20guy%20pondering.gif

"Worst Offseason, Ever"



there was a good article about orton posted today......that one is right

nice Simpsons reference though....always a fan of those

eddie mac
07-09-2009, 02:19 PM
Woody Paige in hating Kyle Orton and still sucking Cutler's c@ck shocker.

2KBack
07-09-2009, 02:21 PM
It wasn't long ago that just about every person on this site tore down Woody every time he opened his mouth/word processor. My how things can change.

Hulamau
07-09-2009, 02:41 PM
"Woody - Starting at QB, the guy who was beat out by Rex Grossman? Throwing to whom? Michael Vick is looking better every day. I know, count on PETA to turn in their season tickets. But seriously, are there any other QB contenders even remotely available?"
-- Rich Fehr, Page, AZ



"Rich - On my ESPN show "Around The Horn," we discussed last week whether or not Vick should be allowed back this year, and I was the only one who said he had paid his debt to society and deserved a chance, as most ex-cons, to get a job in his field (football), that he couldn't pay off the myriad of bills in his bankruptcy doing construction (he has left that job this week to work with kids), and that some team would sign him, and that all the e-mails I had gotten on the subject wanted to know if "their" team, or the Broncos, could possibly sign Vick.

I think only the media think he shouldn't be permitted to play. The fans I've heard from seem to think not only should he play, but also play for (fill in a name) team.

Having said all that, the Broncos will never sign Vick. They don't want another player with a troubled past. Read: Travis Henry et al. I think the likely candidates are Oakland, of course, and Dallas, although I'm sure there are at least a dozen teams that would want to sign him if they weren't afraid of all the local attention (from the media).

Now, about the Broncos' starting quarterback, who is, without playing one snap, Kyle Orton. In minicamp I was unimpressed with him. There I go being negative again, most people will say. No, there I go being honest. Orton, as I wrote last month, will not be ranked in the top 20 in the league by anybody who has seen him play for Chicago. Denver got rid of Jay Cutler because he wouldn't return phone calls. Chicago got rid of Orton because the Bears didn't want him. Big difference.


Truth is, Chris Simms and the rookie have stronger arms. Simms has been away from playing in a game for a while, but I think you'll see him this year, and maybe earlier than some think. Maybe Orton will succeed in Josh McDaniels' West New England Offense, but he's no All-Pro, and I still don't think they'll win many games this year. He's not a long-range answer here, and I'll eat my opinion, as always, if I'm wrong. If I'm right, the world will know soon enough."




:pimp:

Well this is about as strong a prediction that Orton will succeed here as anything I've seen yet !Woody is dead wrong about 90% of the time, and in this case since its clear he wouldn't even know what he is looking at in a practice scrimmage.

I doubt Orton is losing any sleep over what a two bit loud mouth Drama Queen like Woody is thinking anyway after glancing at an afternoon of tossing the ball around in any event.

DBroncos4life
07-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Like I said before Texas would have been better staying with Major Applewhite. Simms was over-rated in college and I have no idea why he is in the NFL at all. With guys like Simms in the NFL you know that Jeff George got black listed from the NFL.

Hogan11
07-09-2009, 04:43 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=5334&dateline=1242542248

Shouldn't somebody put down newspaper?

They could use one of Woody's articles.

She does look about ready to drop some kids off at the pool......

oubronco
07-09-2009, 05:21 PM
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by vancejohnson82 http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2467693#post2467693)
All Woody talked about was arm strength...
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Josh McDaniels told the team before practice, the media afterward, that Kyle Orton is Your Brand Spanking New Denver Broncos' starting quarterback. During practice with the first team, Orton threw a couple of interceptions and also threw a completion to the young man operating the music machine several yards out of bounds and threw a pass onto the distant field. And he was forced to eat the ball twice on red-zone plays.

It was not Orton's best day on the field. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

WOOHOO our starting QB ROCKS

Broncos4tw
07-09-2009, 05:49 PM
Pro Bowl #s? Good arm? Oh brother...

Look, good QBs in the league are known very quickly, and are paid just as quickly. If Orton was a great player, he'd be paid as one, and the Bears would never have let him go. He is at best an average player. Why is a strong arm important? Because without one, our passing game becomes much more predictable, and a lot easier to defend, freeing up defenders to cause other damage.

At this point, I'm heaping the entire success of this team on McD's back. Because it was HE who insisted on tearing our team completely apart to build a better "system." Well, the system better work, or we are in a word, screwed.

To coin a phrase used for backup QBs in our past: Orton is given the keys to the Ferrari, and his job is simply to not crash it. He is not going to win races, he is not going to do amazing stunts, he will be going the speed limit, and hope he has really nice roads to drive on, and not wreck the thing.

Even if we are not a total flop, I see Bronco football getting a lot more boring. That saddens me.

watermock
07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Sammy Winder part 2.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Pro Bowl #s? Good arm? Oh brother...

Look, good QBs in the league are known very quickly, and are paid just as quickly. If Orton was a great player, he'd be paid as one, and the Bears would never have let him go. He is at best an average player. Why is a strong arm important? Because without one, our passing game becomes much more predictable, and a lot easier to defend, freeing up defenders to cause other damage.

At this point, I'm heaping the entire success of this team on McD's back. Because it was HE who insisted on tearing our team completely apart to build a better "system." Well, the system better work, or we are in a word, screwed.

To coin a phrase used for backup QBs in our past: Orton is given the keys to the Ferrari, and his job is simply to not crash it. He is not going to win races, he is not going to do amazing stunts, he will be going the speed limit, and hope he has really nice roads to drive on, and not wreck the thing.

Even if we are not a total flop, I see Bronco football getting a lot more boring. That saddens me.


Good QB's are known very quickly? Hmm. Just off the top of my head: Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, David Garrard, Tony Romo, John Kitna, Jake Delhomme, Drew Brees just to name a few...

tsiguy96
07-09-2009, 05:56 PM
Pro Bowl #s? Good arm? Oh brother...

Look, good QBs in the league are known very quickly, and are paid just as quickly. If Orton was a great player, he'd be paid as one, and the Bears would never have let him go. He is at best an average player. Why is a strong arm important? Because without one, our passing game becomes much more predictable, and a lot easier to defend, freeing up defenders to cause other damage.

At this point, I'm heaping the entire success of this team on McD's back. Because it was HE who insisted on tearing our team completely apart to build a better "system." Well, the system better work, or we are in a word, screwed.

To coin a phrase used for backup QBs in our past: Orton is given the keys to the Ferrari, and his job is simply to not crash it. He is not going to win races, he is not going to do amazing stunts, he will be going the speed limit, and hope he has really nice roads to drive on, and not wreck the thing.

Even if we are not a total flop, I see Bronco football getting a lot more boring. That saddens me.

it helps to play to a QBs strengths, as well as give him more than one starting caliber offensive player to help him.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-09-2009, 05:57 PM
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by vancejohnson82 http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2467693#post2467693)
All Woody talked about was arm strength...
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Josh McDaniels told the team before practice, the media afterward, that Kyle Orton is Your Brand Spanking New Denver Broncos' starting quarterback. During practice with the first team, Orton threw a couple of interceptions and also threw a completion to the young man operating the music machine several yards out of bounds and threw a pass onto the distant field. And he was forced to eat the ball twice on red-zone plays.

It was not Orton's best day on the field. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

WOOHOO our starting QB ROCKS

Yeah, so our QB, who is learning a completely new and highly complicated offense threw a couple of picks in mini camp. OOOOHHHH NOEEEESSSS!!!!!!!!!!

oubronco
07-09-2009, 05:58 PM
Yeah, so our QB, who is learning a completely new and highly complicated offense threw a couple of picks in mini camp. OOOOHHHH NOEEEESSSS!!!!!!!!!!

ROFL! WE are screwed

watermock
07-09-2009, 06:14 PM
Wow.

Now name the 1st round busts Lenart, young, Vick, Russel, George, Leaf, ect.

Cutler went probowl in his 2nd year staring with 7 RBs, none the last 3 weeks, and set records eclipsing Elway.

rbackfactory80
07-09-2009, 06:52 PM
Orton is the definition of a game manager. He can get the job done but to win a complete team is needed, including defense. Our defense has way to many questions to think we can have a great season.

TonyR
07-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Our defense has way to many questions to think we can have a great season.

Some of you seem to have forgotton how awful the state of the Denver Broncos was over the last 3 weeks of last season. You act like we've gone from some great place to where everything has completely fallen apart. Seriously, go back and watch the last 3 games from last season. You might be surprised how much you've suppressed.

Rabb
07-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Wow.

Now name the 1st round busts Lenart, young, Vick, Russel, George, Leaf, ect.

Cutler went probowl in his 2nd year staring with 7 RBs, none the last 3 weeks, and set records eclipsing Elway.

I give the O line credit for everything you just pointed out

a few weeks got the east coast attention for Jay at the start of the season, he was pretty average at the end of it all

and I am not talking the team record so save the "but but the defense" crap

Rabb
07-09-2009, 07:32 PM
Some of you seem to have forgotton how awful the state of the Denver Broncos was over the last 3 weeks of last season. You act like we've gone from some great place to where everything has completely fallen apart. Seriously, go back and watch the last 3 games from last season. You might be surprised how much you've suppressed.

this

Atlas
07-09-2009, 07:32 PM
Exactly! The only people who give more credit to stats than wins are Fantasy Football players and the media.

I'd much rather have a gutsy leader who passes for 210 YPG with 1 TD than a loose cannon who throws for 320 YPG with 1 TD and 3 INT's. The former could survive with a solid ground game (which I feel we will have this year). The latter is a result of forced throws and over-confidence.

Cutler threw 25 TDs and 16 Ints so when did he throw 3 ints to 1 TD???

Cutler is the best third year QB in the NFL and he was given up for a box of cracker jax.

Chicago will start building around him and they'll become very explosive.

2KBack
07-09-2009, 07:34 PM
Good QB's are known very quickly? Hmm. Just off the top of my head: Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, David Garrard, Tony Romo, John Kitna, Jake Delhomme, Drew Brees just to name a few...

...Trent Green, and probably the single best example Steve Young

Atlas
07-09-2009, 07:36 PM
I don't really give a crap where Orton ends up statistically. Woody always seems to forget that wins matter, Pro Bowl appearances do not.

Chicago will have at least three more wins than the Broncos this year.

tsiguy96
07-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Chicago will have at least three more wins than the Broncos this year.

did you predict miami to go 11-5, or falcons to make the playoffs? or chargers to go 8-8 and almsot lose the division?

funny how preseason rankings always end up: always wrong.

wait til you see a game before you declare the season a failure

watermock
07-09-2009, 07:41 PM
Some of you seem to have forgotton how awful the state of the Denver Broncos was over the last 3 weeks of last season. You act like we've gone from some great place to where everything has completely fallen apart. Seriously, go back and watch the last 3 games from last season. You might be surprised how much you've suppressed.

Not really, considring our defense. add in the fact we played anexcellent Carolina team earley, and on he road, without a running game, that would of been a major upset.

Buffalo was cutlers swan song, he missed a wide open Royal twice.

SD had replaced their DC with Rivera and was playing much better and Rivers was in Jays head.

KC blew a game against SD or we would of won the division week 15. Bowe fumbled the onside KO.

Regardless, we would of lost in the first round anyway in the playoffs because our D sucked and we had no RB. Cory Boyd and Tater Tot? No Champ? No safties? No pass rush?

Yeah, Jay pouted, for good reason.

Atlas
07-09-2009, 08:00 PM
did you predict miami to go 11-5, or falcons to make the playoffs? or chargers to go 8-8 and almsot lose the division?

funny how preseason rankings always end up: always wrong.

wait til you see a game before you declare the season a failure

I won't consider the Broncos' season a failure if they go 5-11. THat would be a success since I figure they'll go 4-12.

DBroncos4life
07-09-2009, 08:42 PM
did you predict miami to go 11-5, or falcons to make the playoffs? or chargers to go 8-8 and almsot lose the division?

funny how preseason rankings always end up: always wrong.

wait til you see a game before you declare the season a failure

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rbackfactory80
07-10-2009, 07:42 AM
Some of you seem to have forgotton how awful the state of the Denver Broncos was over the last 3 weeks of last season. You act like we've gone from some great place to where everything has completely fallen apart. Seriously, go back and watch the last 3 games from last season. You might be surprised how much you've suppressed.

I know how awful Denver was last year. All I was saying is if we didn't have to worry about the offense we would still have major defensive problems. This is a six win team. Last years team sucked but this team is a little worse.

vancejohnson82
07-10-2009, 07:59 AM
Not really, considring our defense. add in the fact we played anexcellent Carolina team earley, and on he road, without a running game, that would of been a major upset.

Buffalo was cutlers swan song, he missed a wide open Royal twice.

SD had replaced their DC with Rivera and was playing much better and Rivers was in Jays head.

KC blew a game against SD or we would of won the division week 15. Bowe fumbled the onside KO.

Regardless, we would of lost in the first round anyway in the playoffs because our D sucked and we had no RB. Cory Boyd and Tater Tot? No Champ? No safties? No pass rush?

Yeah, Jay pouted, for good reason.


Lets see....I kind of remember a team with no running game getting on the road and beating Carolina...in the playoffs...i forget who it was though

How do you conveniently leave out the buffalo loss when talking about our last three games

We had no D and no RBs.....very true....two problems we have solved (the defense isnt solved yet, but should be better)

the last three games of last season exposed us as frauds, which we were....for all the complaining everyone did about our bad luck with injuries we did have good luck otherwise....the Falcons would have beat us on that long pass had Roddy White not dropped it in the endzone on their last drive, the fumble against SD of course and the Browns comeback was more of them imploding...thats three losses tehre that we should have had...we were a bad team last year

TonyR
07-10-2009, 08:17 AM
...we were a bad team last year

As I've said before, that was a 6-10 team masquerading as an 8-8 team. We didn't belong on the field with Carolina or San Diego.

oubronco
07-10-2009, 08:18 AM
I know how awful Denver was last year. All I was saying is if we didn't have to worry about the offense we would still have major defensive problems. This is a six win team. Last years team sucked but this team is a little worse.

you'll never convince the koolaid drinkers

SportinOne
07-10-2009, 09:10 AM
Orton is going to put up near pro bowl numbers this season. Simms will only ever see the field in the case of injury or in the rare case that we have run up the score and we put in the backups.

I'm going to take the girl in your avy out on a date. At first she'll think I'm just some nobody but she'll eventually warm up to me and see that finding a satisfying life partner is about more than stunning looks and fat wallets. Over time, her satisfaction and sense of stability with me will evolve into a feeling of deep, strong, sexual desire. After our lovemaking sessions, we will hold hands and talk of our future children: The way we will raise them, where they should go to school, how respectful and wonderful they will be, how we will never push them to do the things that interest us. This talk will always end in more lovemaking... When we are finally finished, she will jump up and begin to cook me an omelet and hash browns, to go with a tall glass of fresh squeezed orange juice. She will serve this to me just as I am about to watch a recorded tape titled, "Broncos vs. Chargers - 9/14/08". As I eat, and watch, she lies naked on top of the sheets next to me. Just before she falls asleep she leans over and whispers into my ear, "I can't wait to do this for the rest of my life."



See, I can do that, too.

gyldenlove
07-10-2009, 09:12 AM
As I've said before, that was a 6-10 team masquerading as an 8-8 team. We didn't belong on the field with Carolina or San Diego.

It is a lot better being a 6-10 team masquerading as an 8-8 team than being an 8-8 team masquerading as a 6-10 team. Anything less than 8-8 is not acceptable.

SportinOne
07-10-2009, 09:13 AM
Lets see....I kind of remember a team with no running game getting on the road and beating Carolina...in the playoffs...i forget who it was though

How do you conveniently leave out the buffalo loss when talking about our last three games

We had no D and no RBs.....very true....two problems we have solved (the defense isnt solved yet, but should be better)

the last three games of last season exposed us as frauds, which we were....for all the complaining everyone did about our bad luck with injuries we did have good luck otherwise....the Falcons would have beat us on that long pass had Roddy White not dropped it in the endzone on their last drive, the fumble against SD of course and the Browns comeback was more of them imploding...thats three losses tehre that we should have had...we were a bad team last year

We weren't supposed to be good last year, that's the thing. We were SUPPOSED to be a 5 to 6 win team. Our team wasn't that good, yet Jay Cutler brought us to the brink of the playoffs. That first Oakland game really screwed with a lot of people's expectations... up until that point people would have been happy with 8-8.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 09:14 AM
We weren't supposed to be good last year, that's the thing. We were SUPPOSED to be a 5 to 6 win team. Our team wasn't that good, yet Jay Cutler brought us to the brink of the playoffs. That first Oakland game really screwed with a lot of people's expectations... up until that point people would have been happy with 8-8.

the NO and SD games probably shouldnt have been wins :afro:

just throwing that out there, everyone made a huge deal about it at the time.

TonyR
07-10-2009, 09:15 AM
It is a lot better being a 6-10 team masquerading as an 8-8 team than being an 8-8 team masquerading as a 6-10 team.

I don't know. The former brings about expectations that will never be realized. That and they don't draft as high as they should be.

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2009, 09:18 AM
I'm going to take the girl in your avy out on a date. At first she'll think I'm just some nobody but she'll eventually warm up to me and see that finding a satisfying life partner is about more than stunning looks and fat wallets. Over time, her satisfaction and sense of stability with me will evolve into a feeling of deep, strong, sexual desire. After our lovemaking sessions, we will hold hands and talk of our future children: The way we will raise them, where they should go to school, how respectful and wonderful they will be, how we will never push them to do the things that interest us. This talk will always end in more lovemaking... When we are finally finished, she will jump up and begin to cook me an omelet and hash browns, to go with a tall glass of fresh squeezed orange juice. She will serve this to me just as I am about to watch a recorded tape titled, "Broncos vs. Chargers - 9/14/08". As I eat, and watch, she lies naked on top of the sheets next to me. Just before she falls asleep she leans over and whispers into my ear, "I can't wait to do this for the rest of my life."



See, I can do that, too.

Every time I look at that avatar I see something a little different. Yah, she's attractive but I keep thinking shes going to take a leak on those 6" high heels...

SportinOne
07-10-2009, 09:22 AM
the NO and SD games probably shouldnt have been wins :afro:

just throwing that out there, everyone made a huge deal about it at the time.

Maybe true but that happens every week in the NFL. You either win or you don't. If you adjusted everyone's record to account for "should haves" I think the standings would be about the same.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2009, 10:11 AM
I know how awful Denver was last year. All I was saying is if we didn't have to worry about the offense we would still have major defensive problems. This is a six win team. Last years team sucked but this team is a little worse.

On paper a little worse, yeah. The defense is in such disarray with a major system overhaul and guys out of position all over. We just have to trust Nolan, what else can we do?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-10-2009, 10:19 AM
On paper a little worse, yeah. The defense is in such disarray with a major system overhaul and guys out of position all over. We just have to trust Nolan, what else can we do?

I dont see how our D is any worse than last season. if nothing else, we're bigger. We also have two solid safeties, which we were in dire need of. I'm not saying we are a top ten team, but ugh, we CANNOT be any worse.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 10:27 AM
On paper a little worse, yeah. The defense is in such disarray with a major system overhaul and guys out of position all over. We just have to trust Nolan, what else can we do?

id rather have our defense now than any defense we fielded last year for sure. our safeties, the new corners including smith, and a schemed pressure system since obviously the dline got none last year.

TheReverend
07-10-2009, 11:09 AM
Lets see....I kind of remember a team with no running game getting on the road and beating Carolina...in the playoffs...i forget who it was though

How do you conveniently leave out the buffalo loss when talking about our last three games

We had no D and no RBs.....very true....two problems we have solved (the defense isnt solved yet, but should be better)

the last three games of last season exposed us as frauds, which we were....for all the complaining everyone did about our bad luck with injuries we did have good luck otherwise....the Falcons would have beat us on that long pass had Roddy White not dropped it in the endzone on their last drive, the fumble against SD of course and the Browns comeback was more of them imploding...thats three losses tehre that we should have had...we were a bad team last year


Sorry, Vance, really dumb post.

The Cardinals ran for over 140 on the Panthers... twice the rushing yards as the Panthers. Also, they switched back to primarily a vet RB to upgrade their pass pro in the play-offs.

Regardless, the Cardinals D won the game by doing what they did all season, force turnovers. Something Denver could not do.

So, none of your points apply.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2009, 11:22 AM
I dont see how our D is any worse than last season. if nothing else, we're bigger. We also have two solid safeties, which we were in dire need of. I'm not saying we are a top ten team, but ugh, we CANNOT be any worse.Yes the safeties are MUCH better ... but do you realize that none of our current OLBs have ever played a down at OLB before? Yeah, we're bigger ... but that's a kinda scary fact. After all, OLBs have gotta move and move quick ... we could get killed on misdirection and reverses ... I can't see Darrell Reid or Tim Crowder chasing down a running back in space like that.

But you win this issue Le-lo, merely by pointing out "CANNOT be any worse." :~ohyah!:

And that's the best point to stress if we want to be optimistic about this season: the defense cannot be worse than last year, so as long as we score (and with that O-line and Knowshon we will), then how can our record be much worse, if at all?

cousinal11
07-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Sorry, Vance, really dumb post.

The Cardinals ran for over 140 on the Panthers... twice the rushing yards as the Panthers. Also, they switched back to primarily a vet RB to upgrade their pass pro in the play-offs.

Regardless, the Cardinals D won the game by doing what they did all season, force turnovers. Something Denver could not do.

So, none of your points apply.

7 that night IIRC. I know Dellhome, on his bday, threw 6 picks. I think he fumbled 1 as well.

kmonty
07-10-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm a fan of Woody myself but some of the haters might enjoy this:

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/01/does-this-mean-anything.html

Epic hilarity

vancejohnson82
07-10-2009, 11:54 AM
Sorry, Vance, really dumb post.

The Cardinals ran for over 140 on the Panthers... twice the rushing yards as the Panthers. Also, they switched back to primarily a vet RB to upgrade their pass pro in the play-offs.

Regardless, the Cardinals D won the game by doing what they did all season, force turnovers. Something Denver could not do.

So, none of your points apply.

The point was that the Cardinals all season had no rushing game, yet somehow found a way to do it against Carolina....Mock seemed to think that somehow our defense was COMPLETELY liable for that game....when in fact the offense didnt sustain one drive

in all honesty, i was blacked out by the start of the second half of that game...I was there and it was awful...a huge waste of money

but we played that game like the team we really were (THEY WERE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!!!!) .....horrible penalties, costly turnovers...Selvin Young fumbled right before the half to make it a 10 point lead instaed of 7

TonyR
07-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Every time I look at that avatar I see something a little different. Yah, she's attractive but I keep thinking shes going to take a leak on those 6" high heels...

A little thick below the waist for my liking but to each his own.

JJJ
07-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Why does anyone bother trying to defend Kyle Orton? Sorry, the guy was born to be average.

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
Career 33 505 913 55.3 5319 5.8 30 65 27 71.1

If he has a bust out year I will eat crow. I do think he will come out of the gate and have a 3 or 4 strong games and get this board in a frenzy but his averageness will show its head in the long run.

But if Rex Grossman can get to a Superbowl it shows anything is possible in this league. Not sure you guys got the same defense as the 06 Bears though.

Karenin
07-10-2009, 02:09 PM
And so have I with my assertion that when we start off 1-5 (beat only CLE)--we will change QB's during our bye week..........

you sound pretty sure of yourself, wanna put $1k on it (escrow obv required)?

rastaman
07-10-2009, 02:54 PM
i agree wholeheartedly. Simms will be starting by week 6.

Simms will be starting at the end of preseason!! :peace:

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 02:59 PM
Simms will be starting at the end of preseason!! :peace:

Then the Broncos will be 0-16 by the end of the year.

rastaman
07-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Orton is going to put up near pro bowl numbers this season. Simms will only ever see the field in the case of injury or in the rare case that we have run up the score and we put in the backups.

He should. Kyle is surrounded by talent and he's a 5 or 6 year veteran. No excuses for ORCA ORTON.:wiggle:

rastaman
07-10-2009, 03:13 PM
Then the Broncos will be 0-16 by the end of the year.

Well we do need to land one of the top 3 Franchise QB's in the 2010 draft. Denver needs to another Franchise QB more than it needs Josh McDaniels.

Northman
07-10-2009, 03:15 PM
So Orton will start the season, get benched by week 6 and then Simms will go down with a hangnail and then Orton will be back up by week 8.

The Joker
07-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Well we do need to land one of the top 3 Franchise QB's in the 2010 draft. Denver needs to another Franchise QB more than it needs Josh McDaniels.

Well, that depends on whether he's a good coach or not now doesn't it?

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 03:24 PM
i think its funny that everyone praised matt cassel for being so good last year, but orton had similar numbers with far less talent, and peole still say he sucks.

Popps
07-10-2009, 03:32 PM
I thought Simms would have taken the lead as far as the starting job goes, but the fact that Orton was named the starter has to tell us something. Simms just must not be picking up the offense as quickly as Orton.

As for arms, I like Chris Simms... but his arm isn't stronger than Orton's, imo. But, for disclosure... I've only seen each of them play a number of times.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 03:36 PM
i think its funny that everyone praised matt cassel for being so good last year, but orton had similar numbers with far less talent, and peole still say he sucks.

I don't think by calling him this years Derek Anderson is by any means praise. Most people think he is a fluke, a product of a very good team that played poor against top teams. Most people understand that McD even had to change the system to help hide Cassells flaws.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 03:37 PM
Well we do need to land one of the top 3 Franchise QB's in the 2010 draft. Denver needs to another Franchise QB more than it needs Josh McDaniels.

I agree too bad the Hawks own that pick.

rastaman
07-10-2009, 03:39 PM
Woody Paige in hating Kyle Orton and still sucking Cutler's c@ck shocker.

Careful, Orton still has time to ram his c@ck down McDisaster's throat before its all said and done.;D

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 03:39 PM
I don't think by calling him this years Derek Anderson is by any means praise. Most people think he is a fluke, a product of a very good team that played poor against top teams. Most people understand that McD even had to change the system to help hide Cassells flaws.

the fact that mcd can successfully modify his system to make up for the shortcomings of teh offense should make people here very happy...

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 03:40 PM
I agree too bad the Hawks own that pick.

or maybe the hawks own pick #20 and we got teh #8 overall from the bears. stop talking like they are 100% positive to do better than the broncos this year

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2009, 03:40 PM
We can only hope Matt Cassel is the next Scott Mitchell. However, he'll probably turn out to be the best QB KC has had in a long time...

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 03:44 PM
or maybe the hawks own pick #20 and we got teh #8 overall from the bears. stop talking like they are 100% positive to do better than the broncos this year

LOL ROFL! Hilarious!

Rashomon
07-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Exactly! The only people who give more credit to stats than wins are Fantasy Football players and the media.

I'd much rather have a gutsy leader who passes for 210 YPG with 1 TD than a loose cannon who throws for 320 YPG with 1 TD and 3 INT's. The former could survive with a solid ground game (which I feel we will have this year). The latter is a result of forced throws and over-confidence.

Too bad your not describing Orton. In 14 of Orton's 21 wins, he passed for 150 yards or less, and in 3 he passed for less than 70. Orton has passed for 200 or more yards in only 8 of the 33 games he has started, and the Bears were 4-4 in those games. People like to talk about Orton's record to defend him, but in most cases those wins were in spite of the QB, not because of him. In fact, his record is very similar to Grossman, who had trouble finding work.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 03:46 PM
the fact that mcd can successfully modify his system to make up for the shortcomings of teh offense should make people here very happy...

it certainly worked on BB's team. That team was very good long before McD joined. BB has a very good system in place and so far none of his former assistants have enjoyed success trying to duplicate it elsewhere.

Popps
07-10-2009, 03:51 PM
Well, that depends on whether he's a good coach or not now doesn't it?

Exactly.

Beyond that, "franchise QB" is an abused and drastically overused term.

Which of these guys is a Franchise QB...

-Ben Rothlisberger
-Eli Manning
-Peyton Manning
-Tom Brady
-Brad Johnson
-Trent Dilfer

Only Manning probably fits the classic definition of a franchise QB. Brady is certainly a phenomenal QB, but it was only after he had won a couple SBs that people finally started admitting that. (Or recognizing it.)

In any given football season, you're probably lucky to have TWO "franchise" quarterbacks.

A franchise QB is a guy who can, HIMSELF, account for wins purely by his dominance on the field. Elway is the obvious example. Manning is another example, as he managed to win a SB with one of the worst defenses I've ever seen hoist the Lombardi.

So, everyone needs to get over this nonsense that we're doomed without a "franchise" quarterback.

Now, of course... we need a quality QB. We need a championship caiber QB.
Tom Brady is an elite QB. He's in a championship class. But, my guess is that Tom Brady wouldn't be able to almost single-handedly carry his team to a SB like John Elway did, or win one like Manning did. Brady is just smart, tough, plays well within the system and almost never makes a mistake.
(I also think he's underrated as an athlete.)

But, no one out there would call Rothlisberger a franchise QB. Yet, they had no problem winning a couple of SBs with him, and as a rookie, no less.



So, a distinction needs to be made. A "franchise" QB isn't needed to win a SB. A championship-caliber/elite QB is... but those come in all shapes and sizes.

The real issue at hand remains: building a complete team, and atmosphere of winning and a sustainable plan for developing and signing talent. (i.e. NE/Pitt.)

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 04:10 PM
Exactly.

Beyond that, "franchise QB" is an abused and drastically overused term.

Which of these guys is a Franchise QB...

-Ben Rothlisberger
-Eli Manning
-Peyton Manning
-Tom Brady
-Brad Johnson
-Trent Dilfer

Only Manning probably fits the classic definition of a franchise QB. Brady is certainly a phenomenal QB, but it was only after he had won a couple SBs that people finally started admitting that. (Or recognizing it.)

In any given football season, you're probably lucky to have TWO "franchise" quarterbacks.

A franchise QB is a guy who can, HIMSELF, account for wins purely by his dominance on the field. Elway is the obvious example. Manning is another example, as he managed to win a SB with one of the worst defenses I've ever seen hoist the Lombardi.

So, everyone needs to get over this nonsense that we're doomed without a "franchise" quarterback.

Now, of course... we need a quality QB. We need a championship caiber QB.
Tom Brady is an elite QB. He's in a championship class. But, my guess is that Tom Brady wouldn't be able to almost single-handedly carry his team to a SB like John Elway did, or win one like Manning did. Brady is just smart, tough, plays well within the system and almost never makes a mistake.
(I also think he's underrated as an athlete.)

But, no one out there would call Rothlisberger a franchise QB. Yet, they had no problem winning a couple of SBs with him, and as a rookie, no less.



So, a distinction needs to be made. A "franchise" QB isn't needed to win a SB. A championship-caliber/elite QB is... but those come in all shapes and sizes.

The real issue at hand remains: building a complete team, and atmosphere of winning and a sustainable plan for developing and signing talent. (i.e. NE/Pitt.)

you're crazy if you don't think people call Big Ben a "franchise" QB. As for Dilfer and Johnson, they had the two best D's since the 86 Bears to carry their teams, something we won't be falling back on anytime soon.

Northman
07-10-2009, 04:10 PM
Too bad your not describing Orton. In 14 of Orton's 21 wins, he passed for 150 yards or less, and in 3 he passed for less than 70. Orton has passed for 200 or more yards in only 8 of the 33 games he has started, and the Bears were 4-4 in those games. People like to talk about Orton's record to defend him, but in most cases those wins were in spite of the QB, not because of him. In fact, his record is very similar to Grossman, who had trouble finding work.

I heard that a lot with Plummer as well but the winning record cant be denied.

The Joker
07-10-2009, 04:15 PM
you're crazy if you don't think people call Big Ben a "franchise" QB. As for Dilfer and Johnson, they had the two best D's since the 86 Bears to carry their teams, something we won't be falling back on anytime soon.

The point though is that there are numerous QB's in the league who could have won those SB's for the Steelers.

Big Ben doesn't carry the Steelers, if anything they carry him most of the time.

Northman
07-10-2009, 04:17 PM
The point though is that there are numerous QB's in the league who could have won those SB's for the Steelers.

Big Ben doesn't carry the Steelers, if anything they carry him most of the time.

I dont really buy that. Yes, he has the luxury of having a great defense but the dude is clutch when you need him to be. This past Super Bowl was proof of that. That final drive was stellar.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 04:17 PM
The point though is that there are numerous QB's in the league who could have won those SB's for the Steelers.

Big Ben doesn't carry the Steelers, if anything they carry him most of the time.

early in his career, yes. but now its to teh point that big ben can win games for the team, must be nice to be a QB with the pressure off to win. hopefully orton can get carried through a few games this year.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 04:42 PM
I dont really buy that. Yes, he has the luxury of having a great defense but the dude is clutch when you need him to be. This past Super Bowl was proof of that. That final drive was stellar.

Anyone that thinks he isn't a "franchise" QB they need to pop in that SB tape and watch that last drive. Maybe they should watch that game saving tackle against the Colts during the first SB win. I mean my god the guy went on the road and beat the Colts and the Broncos in back to back weeks during the first playoff run. That's not easy

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Anyone that thinks he isn't a "franchise" QB they need to pop in that SB tape and watch that last drive. Maybe they should watch that game saving tackle against the Colts during the first SB win. I mean my god the guy went on the road and beat the Colts and the Broncos in back to back weeks during the first playoff run. That's not easy

i agree hes franchise for sure, there is no one the steelers would trade him for in teh NFL.

but he also played one of the worst performances ever by a winning super bowl QB in that first SB.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 04:45 PM
i agree hes franchise for sure, there is no one the steelers would trade him for in teh NFL.

but he also played one of the worst performances ever by a winning super bowl QB in that first SB.

I agree, but he is only getting better. I don't think there would be a coach in the NFL that would be afraid to put the game in his hands anymore.

Hamrob
07-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Jay Cutler was in his 3rd year folks. Give me and him a break. All that you can bank on after a QB's 3rd year is talent and potential. Few QB's have had the talent and potential of Jay Cutler.

The reason the Bears wanted him along with half of the NFL was because of that talent and that once in a lifetime potential.

Kyle Orton can play QB...but so could trent Dilfer. Nobody ever got excited about either of those guys...and nobody with any intelligence anyway...would ever think a team would be better off with one of those guys than with the potential of a Jay Cutler.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Jay Cutler was in his 3rd year folks. Give me and him a break. All that you can bank on after a QB's 3rd year is talent and potential. Few QB's have had the talent and potential of Jay Cutler.

The reason the Bears wanted him along with half of the NFL was because of that talent and that once in a lifetime potential.

Kyle Orton can play QB...but so could trent Dilfer. Nobody ever got excited about either of those guys...and nobody with any intelligence anyway...would ever think a team would be better off with one of those guys than with the potential of a Jay Cutler.

once in a lifetime? since 04 there is several QBs as good or better than him that have come out of the draft.

i dont think you understand what people are saying. no one is saying on a pure talent level orton is better than cutler. but maybe a smart, decisive QB who can read defenses and check down (boring football) would be better for mcdaniels system than one who can throw it 80 yards and knock over receivers from the speed on the ball, but relies too heavily on his arm.

just maybe....

besides, we got a LOT of extra stuff along with kyle orton to hopefully make the entire team better, not just a QB exchange.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 04:59 PM
once in a lifetime? since 04 there is several QBs as good or better than him that have come out of the draft.

i dont think you understand what people are saying. no one is saying on a pure talent level orton is better than cutler. but maybe a smart, decisive QB who can read defenses and check down (boring football) would be better for mcdaniels system than one who can throw it 80 yards and knock over receivers from the speed on the ball, but relies too heavily on his arm.

just maybe....

Who?

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 05:02 PM
Who?

big ben, philip rivers, matt ryan, arguably eli manning, aaron rodgers. others are still unknown such as brady quinn, and the 2 rookies this year, both of whom reportedly look good.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 05:09 PM
big ben, philip rivers, matt ryan, arguably eli manning, aaron rodgers. others are still unknown such as brady quinn, and the 2 rookies this year, both of whom reportedly look good.

Rodgers? Nope! Eli Manning? Please. Quinn isn't not even close. Big Ben is very good and so is Matt Ryan. Rivers? I wouldn't say he is better then Cutler but he has a good record so that makes it popular to say so. Talent wise Cutler is ahead of pretty much everyone of those QBs and I'm pretty positive if you put him on the Giants, Steelers, or the Chargers he is more then capable of winning the SB with those teams. I think he would take the Packers and the Falcons deep into the playoffs as well. Outside of Big Ben I don't think any of those QBs would have put up the numbers Cutler did for us last year.

Popps
07-10-2009, 05:11 PM
you're crazy if you don't think people call Big Ben a "franchise" QB.

I'm not going to do the homework, but I'll guarantee you people on this very board were calling him a bust when he went through his injury problems a couple of years ago .

I'd also bet my life that no more than 50% of the fans out there would qualify him as a "franchise" quarterback before this recent SB win.

He's another guy that every expert in the world wanted to call "average" or a "game manager" before he won a 2nd SB.

Beyond that, there's no way Rothlisberger could be as effective as he is without the team around him he has. I think he's a fantastic QB. I've sung his praises here, but he's no John Elway/P. Manning./Joe Montana.

Throw Rothlisberger on the Texans and they're likely a similar team. Throw John Elway in his prime and and the Texans are automatic playoff contenders.

We can argue all day about what the world things of Ben R., but the bottom line remains that he's a talented player, but his success is the product of a complete team.

People need to get over this superhero QB notion and start looking at how NFL teams are really winning championships.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 05:15 PM
I'm not going to do the homework, but I'll guarantee you people on this very board were calling him a bust when he went through his injury problems a couple of years ago .

I'd also bet my life that no more than 50% of the fans out there would qualify him as a "franchise" quarterback before this recent SB win.

He's another guy that every expert in the world wanted to call "average" or a "game manager" before he won a 2nd SB.

Beyond that, there's no way Rothlisberger could be as effective as he is without the team around him he has. I think he's a fantastic QB. I've sung his praises here, but he's no John Elway/P. Manning./Joe Montana.

Throw Rothlisberger on the Texans and they're likely a similar team. Throw John Elway in his prime and and the Texans are automatic playoff contenders.

We can argue all day about what the world things of Ben R., but the bottom line remains that he's a talented player, but his success is the product of a complete team.

People need to get over this superhero QB notion and start looking at how NFL teams are really winning championships.

I'm not going to do any home work either but I'm willing to bet 85% of football fans outside of this forum think that Big Ben is a "franchise" QB and another 95% of former players, coaches, and GM's would have him on that level too. AGAIN popps who won that Game for the Steelers last year? Who was the QB perfect on the game winning drive?

Popps
07-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Kyle Orton can play QB...but so could trent Dilfer. Nobody ever got excited about either of those guys...and nobody with any intelligence anyway...would ever think a team would be better off with one of those guys than with the potential of a Jay Cutler.

It's not that we're better off without Cutler. I don't think anyone has made that case.

It's whether or not you NEED a fantasy football stats "gunslinger" to win a championship. Most Broncos fans are still just so disillusioned about the QB position after seeing Elway play.

We'll likely never have a QB that good again, folks... and Jay friggin' Quitler couldn't hold Elway's jock. Gimmie a break.

The point here is that Kyle Orton may very well be an above average QB that fits into a scheme and a mindset that allows our offense to be successful. His arm isn't Jay Cutler's arm. No one disputes that.

But, Big Ben's arm isn't Cutler's arm, either... and it's worked out just fine for him.

We really have no idea what we have in Orton. People can talk ****, but we have no idea until we seem him out there for a half-season, at least. But, conceptually, people need to wake up to the realities of building a complete football team. We DO NOT NEED JAY CUTLER TO WIN A SUPERBOWL.

There are many, many other ways to skin that cat.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 05:20 PM
The guy plays hurt, makes big plays when needed, if you ever need to know how tough he is watch the Steelers/Philly game. **** man look at his 07 stats! 32 Tds 11 Ints and a 104 QB rating. That's what you build a team around.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 05:23 PM
Rodgers? Nope! Eli Manning? Please. Quinn isn't not even close. Big Ben is very good and so is Matt Ryan. Rivers? I wouldn't say he is better then Cutler but he has a good record so that makes it popular to say so. Talent wise Cutler is ahead of pretty much everyone of those QBs and I'm pretty positive if you put him on the Giants, Steelers, or the Chargers he is more then capable of winning the SB with those teams. I think he would take the Packers and the Falcons deep into the playoffs as well. Outside of Big Ben I don't think any of those QBs would have put up the numbers Cutler did for us last year.

youre in denial, for sure, if you think cutler is better than rivers, eli, big ben or matt ryan. absolute denial, and even some of the biggest cutler fans will tell you that.

or you severely underrate every other QB in the league who is not jay cutler. he is not gods answer to football, he would not magically make teams with very good QBs already win more games than they already do, and not a SINGLE one of those teams would trade their QB straight up for cutler, guaranteed. you would be extremely hard pressed to even talk their fans into trading their QBs, especially after cutlers offseason.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 10:54 PM
youre in denial, for sure, if you think cutler is better than rivers, eli, big ben or matt ryan. absolute denial, and even some of the biggest cutler fans will tell you that.

or you severely underrate every other QB in the league who is not jay cutler. he is not gods answer to football, he would not magically make teams with very good QBs already win more games than they already do, and not a SINGLE one of those teams would trade their QB straight up for cutler, guaranteed. you would be extremely hard pressed to even talk their fans into trading their QBs, especially after cutlers offseason.

LOL the Browns don't even know what to do with their QB. And you're right none of those teams would ever dream of trading their QBs cause you know why? TEAMS DON'T ****ING TRADE YOUNG QB'S WITH TALENT LIKE THAT!!!! Big Ben, Ryan, or Rivers will not ever be moved for that very reason, but if you think for a second that Manning is more talented then Cutler you are dumb. Manning is good but he isn't better then Cutler. Matt Ryan is a very good QB but physically he isn't more talented then Cutler, neither is Ben. Sadly I have always thought Rivers was a good QB. I'm just sorry he is a Charger. I thought he was the best QB coming out of college and I think he will get better.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 11:00 PM
LOL the Browns don't even know what to do with their QB. And you're right none of those teams would ever dream of trading their QBs cause you know why? TEAMS DON'T ****ING TRADE YOUNG QB'S WITH TALENT LIKE THAT!!!! Big Ben, Ryan, or Rivers will not ever be moved for that very reason, but if you think for a second that Manning is more talented then Cutler you are dumb. Manning is good but he isn't better then Cutler. Matt Ryan is a very good QB but physically he isn't more talented then Cutler, neither is Ben. Sadly I have always thought Rivers was a good QB. I'm just sorry he is a Charger. I thought he was the best QB coming out of college and I think he will get better.

you keep thinking you have to be an extremely physically gifted athlete to be a great QB. if you are talking about how physically gifted these guys are, cutler has them all. fortunately, the QB position requires little physicality and athleticism (comparitively) than every other position, it requires intelligence and accuracy.

cutler makes up for his lack of decision making with his arm, but there is a reason the greatest QBs in the NFL are great decision makers and very accurate and smart, not necessarily the best arm, fast, best scrambler etc.

eli manning had a great, great playoff run, taking a wildcard team to a super bowl win. when we needed cutler the most (buffalo game) he failed miserably. im not denying that cutler shouldnt have been traded because he has far more potential than most any other QB you are gonna find, but hes not anywhere near polished and that potential hasnt been tapped, and with his personality you question if he will ever allow criticism to help develop his game.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 11:14 PM
you keep thinking you have to be an extremely physically gifted athlete to be a great QB. if you are talking about how physically gifted these guys are, cutler has them all. fortunately, the QB position requires little physicality and athleticism (comparitively) than every other position, it requires intelligence and accuracy.

cutler makes up for his lack of decision making with his arm, but there is a reason the greatest QBs in the NFL are great decision makers and very accurate and smart, not necessarily the best arm, fast, best scrambler etc.

eli manning had a great, great playoff run, taking a wildcard team to a super bowl win. when we needed cutler the most (buffalo game) he failed miserably. im not denying that cutler shouldnt have been traded because he has far more potential than most any other QB you are gonna find, but hes not anywhere near polished and that potential hasnt been tapped, and with his personality you question if he will ever allow criticism to help develop his game.
You're right someday they will take Brett Frave's name off one of the greatest QBs to ever play list. You act like Jay Cutler has been in the NFL for years. This is his second year starting his first since they figured out he had a very serious illness. If you have a "QB" coach that is said to be the greatest thing since time was invented itself then he should have worked with Cutler and he should have WANTED to work with him.

Shanahan worked with Steve Young. He didn't want to go out and get a QB to fit his sytem. Mike worked with John Elway. He didn't come in here with his dick swinging in the air and laying down the law he worked with the talent he had here. Mike worked with two of the best QBs ever and there isn't one thing you can EVER say to me to make me think that kid McD is better at understanding and dealing with QBs as talented as Mike.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 11:40 PM
You're right someday they will take Brett Frave's name off one of the greatest QBs to ever play list. You act like Jay Cutler has been in the NFL for years. This is his second year starting his first since they figured out he had a very serious illness. If you have a "QB" coach that is said to be the greatest thing since time was invented itself then he should have worked with Cutler and he should have WANTED to work with him.

Shanahan worked with Steve Young. He didn't want to go out and get a QB to fit his sytem. Mike worked with John Elway. He didn't come in here with his dick swinging in the air and laying down the law he worked with the talent he had here. Mike worked with two of the best QBs ever and there isn't one thing you can EVER say to me to make me think that kid McD is better at understanding and dealing with QBs as talented as Mike.

you say all this under teh assumption that mcdaniels didnt want cutler, which by nearly every account other than cutlers is untrue. he even went on air pleading him to make contact, saying he wont be traded etc, and none of it meant anything because cutler convinced himself he was not wanted here.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 11:48 PM
you say all this under teh assumption that mcdaniels didnt want cutler, which by nearly every account other than cutlers is untrue. he even went on air pleading him to make contact, saying he wont be traded etc, and none of it meant anything because cutler convinced himself he was not wanted here.

I'm sure Cutler tried trading himself for Cassell

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 11:52 PM
I'm sure Cutler tried trading himself for Cassell

im positive mcdaniels explored it, to see how the deal would go down and who would get traded for what, but there isnt a single account that it was anything serious or more than that, just looking into it, not even necessarily seriously considering it. every minute after that though, cutler immediately flew to TN and wouldnt come back or answer his phone, just the fact that his name came up in trade talks was apparently enough to send him overboard.

DBroncos4life
07-10-2009, 11:59 PM
im positive mcdaniels explored it, to see how the deal would go down and who would get traded for what, but there isnt a single account that it was anything serious or more than that, just looking into it, not even necessarily seriously considering it. every minute after that though, cutler immediately flew to TN and wouldnt come back or answer his phone, just the fact that his name came up in trade talks was apparently enough to send him overboard.

Cassel isn't even worth exploring. Other then Mel Kiper I can't think of anyone else that would have even thought about it let alone let the rumors fly on the internet get out there that it wasn't a good afternoon joke that you later wiped your ass with. Epic fail. Rumors are apart of the NFL but crap like that doesn't get leaked without people being careless about info flying around the front office.

Popps
07-11-2009, 12:05 AM
The guy plays hurt, makes big plays when needed, if you ever need to know how tough he is watch the Steelers/Philly game. **** man look at his 07 stats! 32 Tds 11 Ints and a 104 QB rating. That's what you build a team around.

Wrong.

That team wasn't remotely "built around" Rothlisberger. That's where you're fundamentally and absolutely incorrect.

That team was built around that team.

Rothlisberger walked into a situation so spectacular that he was able to win a SB in his rookie season. A dominating, complete defense... domination in the offensive trenches, great special teams play, a tremendous running game and a climate of winning.

Is Ben a great QB? Of course! I already said I've spent many posts around here trying to convince the average Orange Mane goon that he was better than just "average."

But the point is, "franchise" quarterback is a term used sloppily and far too often. If Big Ben gets knocked out of the playoffs early last season, I guaran-****ing-tee you these same goons would be calling him average.

He's a great QB. He's no John Elway. He's no Manning. He's just very talented and makes great plays at crucial times. He's tough. He's a championship caliber, elite QB.

But, he wouldn't make the Lions an instant competitor. John Elway would.


Ben R. had a QB rating of 80 last year... threw 17 TDs against 15 INTs.

Hardly the sexy fantasy football stats some here insist you need to win a championship. Yet, he did.

Ask yourself why that was.

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 12:05 AM
Cassel isn't even worth exploring. Other then Mel Kiper I can't think of anyone else that would have even thought about it let alone let the rumors fly on the internet get out there that it wasn't a good afternoon joke that you later wiped your ass with. Epic fail. Rumors are apart of the NFL but crap like that doesn't get leaked without people being careless about info flying around the front office.

every option is worth exploring, you expect mcdaniels to say "nope wont happen" to the guy he just won 11 games with? theres so little evidence that any real thought was put into the trade, mcdaniels ahs repeatedly stated that he was contacted by other teams about the trade, and no one ever really reported otherwise, just speculated.

Popps
07-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Oh, and Big Ben's other SB season?

A whopping 17 TDs, and 2600 yards.


But, he managed to win a SB.










I wonder how?

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 12:10 AM
every option is worth exploring, you expect mcdaniels to say "nope wont happen" to the guy he just won 11 games with? theres so little evidence that any real thought was put into the trade, mcdaniels ahs repeatedly stated that he was contacted by other teams about the trade, and no one ever really reported otherwise, just speculated.

No one made him leave the Pats.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 12:16 AM
Oh, and Big Ben's other SB season?

A whopping 17 TDs, and 2600 yards.


But, he managed to win a SB.










I wonder how?

I know I wouldn't want a guy like him around. After watching him play that last game is proof of that right Popps.

Popps
07-11-2009, 12:48 AM
I know I wouldn't want a guy like him around. After watching him play that last game is proof of that right Popps.

You wouldn't want Ben R. as a Bronco? That's some crazy ****. But... takes all kinds.

He's a great QB. Yet, only needed to throw 17 TDs to win a SB.... twice.

One of those seasons featured nearly as many INTs.

Again, I wonder how he managed to do that without fancy superhero QB statistics?

Sleep on it. Maybe it'll hit you tomorrow.

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 12:52 AM
No one made him leave the Pats.

who, cassel?

he had no choice but to leave the pats, he was traded. thats not his decision.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 12:53 AM
You wouldn't want Ben R. as a Bronco? That's some crazy ****. But... takes all kinds.

He's a great QB. Yet, only needed to throw 17 TDs to win a SB.... twice.

One of those seasons featured nearly as many INTs.

Again, I wonder how he managed to do that without fancy superhero QB statistics?

Sleep on it. Maybe it'll hit you tomorrow.

I doubt any of them can call themselves two time super bowl champions before the age of 30. If you are trying to get me to think he is on the same talent level as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer or Doug Johnson then you are nuts. Something like four scrubs win the super bowl and poof every has been tool can do it. Its funny that people can year in and year out throw Donovan McNabb into the top 5 QBs and leave out Big Ben. Oh it must be a Fantasy Football thing.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 12:54 AM
who, cassel?

he had no choice but to leave the pats, he was traded. thats not his decision.

No McD.

Cito Pelon
07-11-2009, 08:49 AM
Jay Cutler was in his 3rd year folks. Give me and him a break. All that you can bank on after a QB's 3rd year is talent and potential. Few QB's have had the talent and potential of Jay Cutler.

The reason the Bears wanted him along with half of the NFL was because of that talent and that once in a lifetime potential.

Kyle Orton can play QB...but so could trent Dilfer. Nobody ever got excited about either of those guys...and nobody with any intelligence anyway...would ever think a team would be better off with one of those guys than with the potential of a Jay Cutler.

I think the Broncs will do just fine without Jay Cutler. I was tired of Jay's lackadaisical attitude by the end of last season. Dude was just going through the motions down the stretch with the Div Title on the line. Looked to me like he often was trying to get off the field as fast as he could. Seemed to me he figured they weren't gonna win, so why try? A team is better off without players with that attitude.

gyldenlove
07-11-2009, 09:00 AM
You wouldn't want Ben R. as a Bronco? That's some crazy ****. But... takes all kinds.

He's a great QB. Yet, only needed to throw 17 TDs to win a SB.... twice.

One of those seasons featured nearly as many INTs.

Again, I wonder how he managed to do that without fancy superhero QB statistics?

Sleep on it. Maybe it'll hit you tomorrow.

It probably had something to do with Pittsburgh having a top ranked defense, but I am just guessing. And I wonder how many snaps Big old Roethlisberger took on defense.

In fact, and I am just guessing again, some would probably say that defense wins championships and that that was definitely the case for both the recent Steelers super bowl wins.

Popps
07-11-2009, 06:29 PM
I doubt any of them can call themselves two time super bowl champions before the age of 30. If you are trying to get me to think he is on the same talent level as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer or Doug Johnson then you are nuts. Something like four scrubs win the super bowl and poof every has been tool can do it. Its funny that people can year in and year out throw Donovan McNabb into the top 5 QBs and leave out Big Ben. Oh it must be a Fantasy Football thing.

Wow. You no read good.

I never denigrated Ben R's talents. I'm a big believer in him, and his type of QB.

You need to try to read my post again and come away with the proper message.

It's very simple.

Popps
07-11-2009, 06:30 PM
It probably had something to do with Pittsburgh having a top ranked defense, but I am just guessing. And I wonder how many snaps Big old Roethlisberger took on defense.

In fact, and I am just guessing again, some would probably say that defense wins championships and that that was definitely the case for both the recent Steelers super bowl wins.

Someone is getting pretty warm!

(Maybe you can help out DBroncos4life... he's talking about everything from Doug Williams to Donovan McNabb.)

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 07:56 PM
Someone is getting pretty warm!

(Maybe you can help out DBroncos4life... he's talking about everything from Doug Williams to Donovan McNabb.)

lol **** it I'm done you're right Big Ben is over rated, Cutler sucks dick and this should be his last year in the NFL and we should get at least 3 SB victories with the revamped DL and Kyle Orton.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 08:05 PM
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Just wondering which side of the ball won that game for the Steelers last year?

Popps
07-11-2009, 08:08 PM
lol **** it I'm done you're right Big Ben is over rated.

Wow, severely reading-challenged, huh?

Better have someone at home help.

I'll give you another hint... I'm a fan of Ben R. It think he's a great QB and have argued that when people were calling him "average."

So, if you can possibly work that through your skull... perhaps you can move on to answer the question.

Ben R. won two SBs in seasons where he only threw 17 TDs. One of those seasons, he threw 15 INTs.

Now, how could that have possibly happened?

(Cue Jeopardy theme....)

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Wow, severely reading-challenged, huh?

Better have someone at home help.

I'll give you another hint... I'm a fan of Ben R. It think he's a great QB and have argued that when people were calling him "average."

So, if you can possibly work that through your skull... perhaps you can move on to answer the question.

Ben R. won two SBs in seasons where he only threw 17 TDs. One of those seasons, he threw 15 INTs.

Now, how could that have possibly happened?

(Cue Jeopardy theme....)
Because they are a very good team, just like every other team that has won the SB. Just because he is on a good team that doesn't take away his importance to that team. Hell you are acting like this team won SB's with Tommy Maddox. Do you think Steelers fans don't think of him as a "franchise" QB?

Popps
07-11-2009, 08:28 PM
Again, Ben R. is a very fine QB. Had the Steelers not won the SB this year, despite his very average statistics throughout the season... you would have been hard-pressed to find anyone on the planet to call him a "franchise QB."

Again, John Elway is a franchise QB, and you folks sitting around waiting for the next Elway/Mario/Montana are going to be sorely disappointed.

Rothlisberger is a fantastic QB. However, he won't be personally taking any team to the playoffs on his back, which is what separates a great QB from a franchise QB.

So, folks like yourself who are hyper-obsessed with QB stats and the QB position in general will continue to miss the big picture. Ben R. walked into a great situation with the Steelers and did a great job, himself.

Hopefully our current administration will create a team structure that allows for our quarterback to throw only 2600 yards and 17 TDs, and yet still be successful enough to play in a SB.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 08:43 PM
Again, Ben R. is a very fine QB. Had the Steelers not won the SB this year, despite his very average statistics throughout the season... you would have been hard-pressed to find anyone on the planet to call him a "franchise QB."

Again, John Elway is a franchise QB, and you folks sitting around waiting for the next Elway/Mario/Montana are going to be sorely disappointed.

Rothlisberger is a fantastic QB. However, he won't be personally taking any team to the playoffs on his back, which is what separates a great QB from a franchise QB.

So, folks like yourself who are hyper-obsessed with QB stats and the QB position in general will continue to miss the big picture. Ben R. walked into a great situation with the Steelers and did a great job, himself.

Hopefully our current administration will create a team structure that allows for our quarterback to throw only 2600 yards and 17 TDs, and yet still be successful enough to play in a SB.

That's awesome I'm so hyper-obsessed with QB stats so much that I'm calling a guy that passed for only 2600 yards and 17 TDs a "franchise" QB. Its not at all because he plays calm no matter what is going on. Its not at all because of his command of his football team and how he has the respect of the team even when he was a rookie. Its not at all because I think he does things to keep plays alive that only a handful of QB I have even seen do before. You're totally right its because of his super awesome fantasy football stats he puts up. Odds are that Big Ben will never have to completely carry a team on his back because of the system they have in Pitt but that doesn't mean his isn't capable of taking his team down in the biggest game of the year and win the big game. That my friend is what you want from a QB, someone that won't fold. Now go on and say Cutler doesn't have it any of that in him. I'm sure someone will, but I think he can and I wanted to see him do it here in Denver.

Popps
07-11-2009, 09:45 PM
Well, we agree on Ben R.

Cutler? Who knows, who cares. He cried his way out of town like a bitch. **** him and anyone who looks like him.

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 10:39 PM
No McD.

are you kidding, really?

of course no one made him leave the patriots, no one ever makes these guys take PROMOTIONS, but youre stupid if you dont. you really blame mcd for taking a head coaching job?

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 10:40 PM
That's awesome I'm so hyper-obsessed with QB stats so much that I'm calling a guy that passed for only 2600 yards and 17 TDs a "franchise" QB. Its not at all because he plays calm no matter what is going on. Its not at all because of his command of his football team and how he has the respect of the team even when he was a rookie. Its not at all because I think he does things to keep plays alive that only a handful of QB I have even seen do before. You're totally right its because of his super awesome fantasy football stats he puts up. Odds are that Big Ben will never have to completely carry a team on his back because of the system they have in Pitt but that doesn't mean his isn't capable of taking his team down in the biggest game of the year and win the big game. That my friend is what you want from a QB, someone that won't fold. Now go on and say Cutler doesn't have it any of that in him. I'm sure someone will, but I think he can and I wanted to see him do it here in Denver.

then he should have not forced his way out of town and we probably would have. if cutler wanted to be a denver bronco, he would be. instead, he didnt want to answer his phone.

BroncoBuff
07-11-2009, 10:50 PM
BroncoBuff will no doubt love this. He's been on record with this for awhile.

Yeah I really was ... until out of the blue Josh named Orton the starter.

That kinda shut me up for awhile ... ::)

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 10:51 PM
are you kidding, really?

of course no one made him leave the patriots, no one ever makes these guys take PROMOTIONS, but youre stupid if you dont. you really blame mcd for taking a head coaching job?

Well he could have always found a team without a young QB coming off a ok year and went to them and then traded for his boyfriend. I blame McD for taking a job where things where in place other then a RB on O and trying to mix things up before he even got Cutler on the field to see how he would handle McD system instead of trying to get a guy he was more comfortable with.

As I said before what was the worst that could have happened with Cutler in McD's system? If and I mean and IF McD played a large part in making Cassel look the part of a starting QB in the NFL then there is little reason to think that under one year with McD, Cutlers trade value would have dropped. No McD couldn't even do that right nor could he keep the story from leaking to the media and nor could he keep things straight when it came to who said what and how the whole thing got started. It is up to you to decide who calls for what players in the offseason and who is "untouchable" and who isn't but the simple fact remains that even if other teams call up and ask the Colts whats Mannings value no one ever hears about it. Its just amazing to me that the three teams in this the NE, KC, and Den all have some kind of tie to that Pats former front office. Nothing you can say will ever make me believe that someone didn't pull one over on us and put egg on our FO's collective faces.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 10:55 PM
then he should have not forced his way out of town and we probably would have. if cutler wanted to be a denver bronco, he would be. instead, he didnt want to answer his phone.

Who is in control of the FO a player or the COACH/GM/OWNER! If you don't get why writers are saying Denver needs to do the right thing with BM because how fast they reacted and quite possibly jumped the gun on trading Cutler then I don't know what to tell you. Sounds to me like the owner shouldn't have been calling Cutler in the first place or maybe got thicker skin and not got so butt hurt because the guy wouldn't answer his phone. The OWNER got involved in something that really he shouldn't have been and he got pissed and traded Cutler.

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 10:58 PM
Who is in control of the FO a player or the COACH/GM/OWNER! If you don't get why writers are saying Denver needs to do the right thing with BM because how fast they reacted and quite possibly jumped the gun on trading Cutler then I don't know what to tell you. Sounds to me like the owner shouldn't have been calling Cutler in the first place or maybe got thicker skin and not got so butt hurt because the guy wouldn't answer his phone. The OWNER got involved in something that really he shouldn't have been and he got pissed and traded Cutler.

i agree they should have held onto cutler, but hes gone and only proved all the questions regarding his maturity. maybe cutler should have been a man and answered his phone and none of this would have been a problem.

BroncoBuff
07-11-2009, 11:01 PM
Chris Simms is a girl. I bet anyone here Simms never plays a down this year except due to injury.
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I'm telling you, in 2006 he was very very impressive ... you're going by stats, but I watched the games, and he definitely has a strong field-general type personality. Admittedly he did suck the first couple games in '07 before the spleen, but he will surprise people ... won't have too much longer to wait to see.

And of course - although I'm sure this point's been made - Josh will give Orton every possible chance, and the some, and then even more chances to succeed. It'll be one of the slowest hooks in history, because benching Orton would be a real embarrassment for Josh.

Even despite that embarrasment, I'll make a similar bet with you Khan: I bet "anyone here" that Orton will be benched this season for performance-related reasons.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 11:03 PM
i agree they should have held onto cutler, but hes gone and only proved all the questions regarding his maturity. maybe cutler should have been a man and answered his phone and none of this would have been a problem.

Pat got in way over his head. For the last 14 years who took care of the team? We have a rookie HC, a rookie GM, and a owner that is trying to do things differently without anyone with experience in handling problems like this.

As for Jay's maturity, it will get better as he gets older. He isn't the first player ever to get traded and force his way out as you so like to put it. Hell Bo Jackson didn't even sign his contract from the Bucs and waited a year to get drafted again all so he didn't have to play for Tampa Bay. Is he a baby?

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 11:11 PM
Pat got in way over his head. For the last 14 years who took care of the team? We have a rookie HC, a rookie GM, and a owner that is trying to do things differently without anyone with experience in handling problems like this.

As for Jay's maturity, it will get better as he gets older. He isn't the first player ever to get traded and force his way out as you so like to put it. Hell Bo Jackson didn't even sign his contract from the Bucs and waited a year to get drafted again all so he didn't have to play for Tampa Bay. Is he a baby?

pat got in over his head? hes been the OWNER of the denver broncos for 25 years, there isnt much he HASNT come across. the reports that he was more offended by jay cutler than ever in his football career mean alot.

with 98% of players in the league teh problem wouldnt have escalated to the point it did, with the player sitting at home not answering his phone.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 11:18 PM
pat got in over his head? hes been the OWNER of the denver broncos for 25 years, there isnt much he HASNT come across. the reports that he was more offended by jay cutler than ever in his football career mean alot.

with 98% of players in the league teh problem wouldnt have escalated to the point it did, with the player sitting at home not answering his phone.

He has owned but what did he do? Shanny had control over the team for the last 14 years, hell total control for at least 9 of those years. Really times have changed and someone should tell that to Al Davis who is still trying to run his team like its the 70's. So yes Pat hasn't been forced to get involved in anything like this in a number of years and the out come showed.

tsiguy96
07-11-2009, 11:25 PM
He has owned but what did he do? Shanny had control over the team for the last 14 years, hell total control for at least 9 of those years. Really times have changed and someone should tell that to Al Davis who is still trying to run his team like its the 70's. So yes Pat hasn't been forced to get involved in anything like this in a number of years and the out come showed.

yes, the person he signs the checks for refused to talk to him or answer the phones for anyone in the organization, pat was deeply offended by such a childish act and ordered him to be traded. thats VERY illogical.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2009, 11:30 PM
yes, the person he signs the checks for refused to talk to him or answer the phones for anyone in the organization, pat was deeply offended by such a childish act and ordered him to be traded. thats VERY illogical.
So when has Pat ever been involved in something like this as a owner? I mean because he has been such a hands on owner you shouldn't have a hard time at all coming up with examples of Pat handing players and their emotions like this.

Childish or not Pat set the bar on how to get out of Denver if you want too. Are you telling me Pat's never handled a child throwing a fit before? Cutler got what he wanted but that's not what Pat should have done in the first place.