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View Full Version : Brandon Marshall: Pay him or let him sit?


Taco John
07-05-2009, 02:17 PM
What the hey. I'm bored.

Taco John
07-05-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm torn on this one. On one hand, it's better to have Marshall on the field than on his couch. We'll sure win more games with him than without him. On the other hand, the Broncos should think twice about setting a precedent when it comes to caving in on contract/trade demands.

TDmvp
07-05-2009, 02:28 PM
I'm torn on this one. On one hand, it's better to have Marshall on the field than on his couch. We'll sure win more games with him than without him. On the other hand, the Broncos should think twice about setting a precedent when it comes to caving in on contract/trade demands.

If you try to call his bluff you could end up being even more like the Bengals ...

They called Chad's bluff last year and didn't trade him for a 1 and 3 to the skins with the chance of the 3 being a 2 or 1 depending on his catches that year .

Instead they call his bluff , lose TJ and are stuck with Chad ....


I say pay him he is the best player on that side of the ball and may be the best WR in the NFL ....

ludo21
07-05-2009, 02:28 PM
Pay the man. Incentive laden deal, whatever we gotta do.

He is too valuable to just sit (and I doubt he will) and his trade value is not worth his output.

Make him happy, and call it good

SonOfLe-loLang
07-05-2009, 02:32 PM
If the story about him being broke is true, there's no way he's going to sit out But I'd sign him to a new deal. His on the field performance suggests he deserves it. Plus, you can get him at a discounted rate due to his off the field indescretions and the fact that you won't be competing with other suitors. It's silly to trade a talent like his. He is the draft pick you dream about.

bronco_boi_5280
07-05-2009, 02:36 PM
Pay him.

Man-Goblin
07-05-2009, 02:36 PM
I say let him sit only because I don't think he will sit, if that makes sense.

Taco John
07-05-2009, 02:43 PM
I say let him sit only because I don't think he will sit, if that makes sense.

I understand what you're saying...

But the problem is that even if he doesn't sit, you've got a malcontent in your locker room. An immature malcontent, at that.

The Joker
07-05-2009, 02:44 PM
All depends on what sort of contract he'd be willing to accept.

If we can get a contract that protects us if/when he ****s up off the field again, then pay him.

Something tells me he'll want big-money gauranteed though.

If we could get a decent deep receiving option and a mid-round pick or two in exchange I'd honestly think about letting him go. With Royal, Scheffler, Stokely, Gaffney, even Hillis on the roster we've plenty of guys who can work the shorter stuff. What we lack is a big guy who can get deep. I know there's a perception that Orton can't throw the ball more than 20 yards, but anyone with a brain knows that's nonsense really.

Baba Booey
07-05-2009, 02:58 PM
All depends on what sort of contract he'd be willing to accept.

If we can get a contract that protects us if/when he ****s up off the field again, then pay him.

Something tells me he'll want big-money gauranteed though.

If we could get a decent deep receiving option and a mid-round pick or two in exchange I'd honestly think about letting him go. With Royal, Scheffler, Stokely, Gaffney, even Hillis on the roster we've plenty of guys who can work the shorter stuff. What we lack is a big guy who can get deep. I know there's a perception that Orton can't throw the ball more than 20 yards, but anyone with a brain knows that's nonsense really.

Well put.

Man-Goblin
07-05-2009, 03:09 PM
I understand what you're saying...

But the problem is that even if he doesn't sit, you've got a malcontent in your locker room. An immature malcontent, at that.

Understood. But as I've said before, it's not in his best financial interest to raise hell, be a bad teammate, or perform badly on the field. The rational thing to do when he does report is to flash that big Brandon Marshall smile we've seen so many times. Of course, this is Brandon Marshall we're talking about, so there is a chance he won't act rationally.

Northman
07-05-2009, 04:05 PM
The only way he should get paid is after his court date and he's found not guilty. If he is in the clear after that than go ahead and pay the man. But right now with that lingering over his head you dont pay him unless there is some clauses in there to protect the team in case he is suspended due to his upcoming trial. But, going by the question presented to me i say let him sit. He has zero leverage.

OBF1
07-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Sit him

~Crash~
07-05-2009, 04:29 PM
I'm torn on this one. On one hand, it's better to have Marshall on the field than on his couch. We'll sure win more games with him than without him. On the other hand, the Broncos should think twice about setting a precedent when it comes to caving in on contract/trade demands.

I would do what we told Trevor come to camp and then we will talk

Br0nc0Buster
07-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Offer him a contract with clauses to protect the FO if he messes up again.

If he isnt willing to do that, then wait until the season is over and re-evaluate the position

He isnt gonna sit out, he has nothing to gain by sitting out considering he forfeits a year of unrestricted FA by doing that

gyldenlove
07-05-2009, 04:45 PM
For 3 reasons we should pay him:

1. The team is better with him on the field than on the couch.

2. We won't get value in a trade, so the only way he is an asset if is he plays.

3. He was promised that there would be contract talks, after the Cutler debacle we need the FO to retain some credibility, or the Broncos will have a very very hard time getting getting good deals with other players and attracting free agents.

Northman
07-05-2009, 05:06 PM
For 3 reasons we should pay him:

1. The team is better with him on the field than on the couch.

2. We won't get value in a trade, so the only way he is an asset if is he plays.

3. He was promised that there would be contract talks, after the Cutler debacle we need the FO to retain some credibility, or the Broncos will have a very very hard time getting getting good deals with other players and attracting free agents.


Ha!

summerdenver
07-05-2009, 05:23 PM
Pay him his market value. NFL is dangerous game a career could end on any play. Its only fair that we gve him a contract on the lines of what TJ Housh got. Broncos can always protect themselves with clauses.

DenverBrit
07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
He needs to get to camp and show he is ready to play, he also needs to avoid another suspension as a result of his court appearances in Aug.

Only then can he expect the Broncos to discuss a new contract......one that is laden with contingencies to protect the team from his off-field police incidents.
Let's face it, 15 police incidents in 5 years is unacceptable, and he's shown that his domestic violence wasn't just with his childhood girlfriend.
He has serious maturity and emotional problems, none of which fit a 'team first' concept.

It's all down to Marshall, without his multiple issues, he would likely have a new deal done or promised by now.

Northman
07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Pay him his market value. NFL is dangerous game a career could end on any play. Its only fair that we gve him a contract on the lines of what TJ Housh got. Broncos can always protect themselves with clauses.

But we dont know if they havent already tried to offer him one with clauses. It sounds like to me the Brandon isnt really the kind of guy to go for that when he could lose guaranteed money due to his legal issues.

SouthStndJunkie
07-05-2009, 05:42 PM
I don't mind if they pay him....because I would hate to get rid of him.

Give him a new deal and put in provisions to protect the team if he screws up again....and there is a decent chance of that.

I don't think B-Marsh can afford to hold out for long, so I am also not against staying put for the time being.

I just don't want to trade him.

Man-Goblin
07-05-2009, 06:23 PM
But we dont know if they havent already tried to offer him one with clauses. It sounds like to me the Brandon isnt really the kind of guy to go for that when he could lose guaranteed money due to his legal issues.

Exactly. We are all speculating as to what conversations have taken place between Marshall, his representatives, Shanahan (before his dismissal), McDaniels and Xanders' camp, and, probably most importantly, Bowlen.

bronco_boi_5280
07-05-2009, 06:24 PM
Bowlen texted him an offer. In under 140 characters.

cutthemdown
07-05-2009, 06:28 PM
play him, and don't pay him, we can do both.

bronco_boi_5280
07-05-2009, 06:29 PM
play him, and don't pay him, we can do both.

So let him sit then.

cutthemdown
07-05-2009, 06:29 PM
If Brandon wants to ruin his career by dogging it or sitting until week 10, so be it, but we can't award domestic violence, a hip injury, tons of quiestionable comments and actions equal a new contract. We have to wait and see what the situation in in one yr because with Brandon you never know. I mean can anyone say for sure what Brandon Marshall will be into in a yr?

Broncos playing is very smart. Wait it out.

cutthemdown
07-05-2009, 06:30 PM
So let him sit then.

Tell me a scenario where Marshall sits? and then I will tell you why it won't happen.

Go.

rugbythug
07-05-2009, 06:32 PM
If memory serves. I think Marshall even at today's money is scheduled to make more this season than all the previous seasons combined. So there is no way he sits.

bronco_boi_5280
07-05-2009, 06:33 PM
You're probably correct. I'm not saying Brandon has the balls to do it.

What I am saying is, however, that you can't just "not pay him and play him." If he has the stones to do it, he'll sit. I mean, you can't force him to do anything. He'll make his choice how he wants to handle the situation.

summerdenver
07-05-2009, 07:05 PM
But we dont know if they havent already tried to offer him one with clauses. It sounds like to me the Brandon isnt really the kind of guy to go for that when he could lose guaranteed money due to his legal issues.

We don't know if he rejeted such a offer eiither and these days such contracts are pretty common. While there could be some contention on specific clauses/language i don't see why he would reject it either.

As far as I am considered it is a question of fairness. If he gets hurt this year, Broncos will cut him (any nfl team would for that matter) so asking for loyalty is silly.

If you believe Garry Miller on Fm 105.3, Bowlen told BMarsh that if he proves himself this year, Broncos will consider a extension at the end of the year. This is unfair in my view simply because of the risk involved. If we ask him to give 100% on the field, its only fair that we also provide him some insurance in case of injury. I do not think BMarsh is indespensible - just feel its only fair that he is paid market value.

UberBroncoMan
07-05-2009, 07:29 PM
Give him a contract extension with clauses up the ass.

aka...

he gets $2.2 mill this year then it goes up to 7-9 next year... any suspension automatically ****s his contract.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-05-2009, 07:51 PM
Last time I checked, Brandon has no leverage.... although that doesn't matter to the FO. If Brandon really wanted out, he could just refuse to return the owner's phone calls.

If it were up to me, he would play out his rookie contract. **** him if he doesn't like it. He would already have been given a top 5 money extension if not for his own undoing. All he has to do is stay out of the clink... and avoid the occasional rogue MickeyD wrapper.

SoCalBronco
07-05-2009, 08:01 PM
Last time I checked, Brandon has no leverage.

Actually, he has plenty of leverage. How pleasant do you think the season would be with our defense (which has been only slightly changed in the front seven so far as personnel goes) plus an offense that is without its two best skill position players from last year?

McDaniels has to avoid a complete disaster to keep his job. Bowlen has invested his ego in this decision, so he will probably give him another year if we go 6-10. If we go 4-12, it becomes a closer question. Without Marshall, they might have an extra game or two that looks like that SD game from a couple years ago. He simply can't afford to have too many of those.

Punisher
07-05-2009, 08:02 PM
pay the man

montrose
07-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Personally, I love watching him play and would prefer he's on the field. With that, this is a great chance to set a precedent that the new Denver Broncos don't give a sh*t who you are - we have so much confidence in our organization, structure and system that if you don't consider it a privilege to be here - get the f*ck out because we'll be just as productive without you.

Man-Goblin
07-05-2009, 08:34 PM
Actually, he has plenty of leverage. How pleasant do you think the season would be with our defense (which has been only slightly changed in the front seven so far as personnel goes) plus an offense that is without its two best skill position players from last year?

McDaniels has to avoid a complete disaster to keep his job. Bowlen has invested his ego in this decision, so he will probably give him another year if we go 6-10. If we go 4-12, it becomes a closer question. Without Marshall, they might have an extra game or two that looks like that SD game from a couple years ago. He simply can't afford to have too many of those.

You're rationale is derived from the mind of a disenchanted fan and not an NFL coach or owner. Regardless of how you may think the team will perform this year, McDaniels certainly doesn't think he is going 4-12 or even 6-10 this year, with or without Brandon Marshall. I doubt if he would be able to sleep at night if he did. Nor would I expect Bowlen to believe such a thing, regardless of what has occured since he hired the coach.

Plus, Bowlen has openly signaled McDaniels has a significant grace period, as I doubt Bowlen would have guaranteed $40 million ($60+ million if you count the draft) to players who may or may not fit the next coach's scheme. Realistically, the only option for replacing McDaniels this year, or maybe even next, would be Nolan, as the on-field performance and financial fallout after another drastic shift in coaching philosophy could be catastrophic (unless there actually is an uncapped year, in which case all cap related financial ties can essentially be severed).

So basically, no, Brandon Marshall doesn't have much leverage other than the fact that he's a supremely talented and valuable asset. But one with a contract, who, depending on the circumstances, could be hamstrung by the CBA for the next two seasons.

SoCalBronco
07-05-2009, 08:46 PM
You're rationale is derived from the mind of a disenchanted fan and not an NFL coach or owner. Regardless of how you may think the team will perform this year, McDaniels certainly doesn't think he is going 4-12 or even 6-10 this year, with or without Brandon Marshall. I doubt if he would be able to sleep at night if he did. Nor would I expect Bowlen to believe such a thing, regardless of what has occured since he hired the coach.

Ofcourse he doesn't believe that. He has supreme confidence in himself as does pretty much every NFL coach. We've already seen him display an extraordinary amount of arrogance, so I don't disagree with you that he doesn't think he will fail. Bowlen on the other hand, I think is starting to have some doubts. If you take a look at his comments over time, you see some qualification and some things that were said that signal certain things ("I think he was trying to be a head coach.....I think he'll do well long term")

Plus, Bowlen has openly signaled McDaniels has a significant grace period, as I doubt Bowlen would have guaranteed $40 million ($60+ million if you count the draft) to players who may or may not fit the next coach's scheme.

We do that all the time. Actually, if you are referring to the 3-4, we have not really made any huge investments in the scheme, yet. Ayers is kind of a tweener. He's valuable because he could probably play both 3-4 OLB as well as 4-3 DE and if he gained a little more weight, he could also play 3-4 DE as well. We have not invested in any premier 3-4 NTs and our investments in the secondary are not really 3-4 specific.

Realistically, the only option for replacing McDaniels this year, or maybe even next, would be Nolan, as the on-field performance and financial fallout after another drastic shift in coaching philosophy could be catastrophic (unless there actually is an uncapped year, in which case all cap related financial ties can essentially be severed).

McDaniels has pressure. There is no question. I said above that Bowlen will probably bring him back at 6-10, but if gets significantly worse, its a much closer question. I don't think he could survive two straight really bad years. Bowlen DOES have an ego based investment in this hire and he does provide more slack than usual on that account, but that assumes that its just reasonably bad, not out and out bad. There are always limits. I don't think Bowlen appreciates being lowered to a laughing stock in record time and I highly doubt he will continually put up with it. One season? Sure. Alot more? Probably not. It would be very difficult for any coach to win given the loss of a franchise QB and a stud WR when the defense is still questionable. Let's not pretend here....Marshall does have leverage in that he can make a below average season turn into a ****ing nightmare.

So basically, no, Brandon Marshall doesn't have much leverage other than the fact that he's a supremely talented and valuable asset. But one with a contract, who, depending on the circumstances, could be hamstrung by the CBA for the next two seasons.

My comments above.

Hogan11
07-05-2009, 08:49 PM
He either shows up or he'll be the new Bobby Humphrey.....his choice.

azbroncfan
07-05-2009, 08:52 PM
Pay him but protect the team with anti thug and behavior clauses in it.

NFLBRONCO
07-05-2009, 09:18 PM
I say pay him if he shows up at camp for 2 reasons

1. Build alittle more faith FO can handle troubled waters
2. Sign him or WR might get high on 2010 day 1 draft list over D.

Spider
07-05-2009, 09:24 PM
sit his ass..........He got paid for last year , it isnt the Broncos fault he went through money like it is water .......He shouldnt hold the team up over a hissy fit .......
he doesnt care enough about the broncos to show up , then **** him

OrangeRising
07-05-2009, 09:47 PM
..

Broncos playing is very smart. Wait it out.


With this FO, if it looks smart, it's only by accident, but I don't want Marshall traded, so let him sit.

If the reports of financial situation have any truth to them, he'll be back fairly quickly. If he sits out until week 10 or whatever it is to qualify as playing a season, let his agent know he will be franchised.

To many issues to hand over a fat contract, but maybe let him know if he keeps his nose clean AND continues to produce, there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Man-Goblin
07-05-2009, 09:48 PM
Ofcourse he doesn't believe that. He has supreme confidence in himself as does pretty much every NFL coach. We've already seen him display an extraordinary amount of arrogance, so I don't disagree with you that he doesn't think he will fail. Bowlen on the other hand, I think is starting to have some doubts. If you take a look at his comments over time, you see some qualification and some things that were said that signal certain things ("I think he was trying to be a head coach.....I think he'll do well long term")

I agree that there may be some disagreement between ownership and the McDaniels led front office. In fact, there is evidence that McDaniels is more in the "Pay him" camp than Bowlen. The agent saying 'ownership' will try to apease Marshall is one example. Whether the agent is referring to a financial commitment or a trade is unclear. But I still think Bowlen is a business man, and he doesn't sign checks blindly, and in the end money speaks louder than words in regard to his commitment to McDaniels. I guess we will see.

We do that all the time. Actually, if you are referring to the 3-4, we have not really made any huge investments in the scheme, yet. Ayers is kind of a tweener. He's valuable because he could probably play both 3-4 OLB as well as 4-3 DE and if he gained a little more weight, he could also play 3-4 DE as well. We have not invested in any premier 3-4 NTs and our investments in the secondary are not really 3-4 specific.

This is a great point. There are no seemless coaching transitions, and such a change probably wouldn't be any greater than any other coaching change.

McDaniels has pressure. There is no question. I said above that Bowlen will probably bring him back at 6-10, but if gets significantly worse, its a much closer question. I don't think he could survive two straight really bad years. Bowlen DOES have an ego based investment in this hire and he does provide more slack than usual on that account, but that assumes that its just reasonably bad, not out and out bad. There are always limits. I don't think Bowlen appreciates being lowered to a laughing stock in record time and I highly doubt he will continually put up with it. One season? Sure. Alot more? Probably not. It would be very difficult for any coach to win given the loss of a franchise QB and a stud WR when the defense is still questionable. Let's not pretend here....Marshall does have leverage in that he can make a below average season turn into a ****ing nightmare.

I bolded the above because that is exactly my point. McDaniels has at least a season, if not more, to turn the Marshall asset into something. That could be either on-field production for the Broncos, other players that fit his scheme, draft picks, or whatever. So why trade or sign him now? The only risk involved is if Marshall ****s up with the law again. I can't off the top of my head remember the Broncos as an organization extending a guy this early before the final year of his first contract. Hell, they didn't even sign D.J. Williams until September of last year.

If Marshall gets into camp, smiles, doesn't get into trouble, and shows he wants to be there, the organization would be foolish if they don't seriously consider giving him an extension at the right price (including character clauses, which we aren't sure yet if Marshall is willing to accept).


See my comments above and this. I'm operating under the premise that there is no way Brandon Marshall sits out an entire year. In fact, there are many signs he wouldn't last much past the start of training camp. He has too many issues surrounding him, too many financial concerns, and seems to have too much invested in his public perception to stay out much longer. Plus, there's no way he reports to the team and acts the fool, as there is too much to lose in his next contract negotiation (whether it be with the Broncos or another team).

cutthemdown
07-05-2009, 11:19 PM
You're probably correct. I'm not saying Brandon has the balls to do it.

What I am saying is, however, that you can't just "not pay him and play him." If he has the stones to do it, he'll sit. I mean, you can't force him to do anything. He'll make his choice how he wants to handle the situation.

Well look at it like an agent would. He will only be a restricted FA next yr which mean Broncos can match. If he sits season no team will pay him big money. They will just lowball him offers he doesn't like.

I really think to make money Brandon has to prove on the field once again, why? because of the hip surgery and him admitting the bad forearm injury caused him to drop balls.

Teams will say we want to see you do it again before we drop 10 million a yr on you.

That doesn't even consider the fact he has a problem with his judgment with both women and alcohol, and running him mouth.

cutthemdown
07-05-2009, 11:20 PM
With this FO, if it looks smart, it's only by accident, but I don't want Marshall traded, so let him sit.

If the reports of financial situation have any truth to them, he'll be back fairly quickly. If he sits out until week 10 or whatever it is to qualify as playing a season, let his agent know he will be franchised.

To many issues to hand over a fat contract, but maybe let him know if he keeps his nose clean AND continues to produce, there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I disagree I think they made some smart moves and have a plan.

It improves more people who can move ball on the ground and getting bigger all around the team with an emphasis on special teams.

IMO outside of what happened with Cutler the front office did some good things. The Cutler thing IMO may have been unavoidable, but I guess its possible it was all over the trade rumors.

OrangeRising
07-05-2009, 11:59 PM
I disagree I think they made some smart moves and have a plan.

It improves more people who can move ball on the ground and getting bigger all around the team with an emphasis on special teams.

IMO outside of what happened with Cutler the front office did some good things. The Cutler thing IMO may have been unavoidable, but I guess its possible it was all over the trade rumors.


Like you say, it's your opinion the Cutler fiasco was unavoidable, but the facts don't bare that out. Truth is, this ding-dong coach was taking trade for Cassel before any trade talks for Cutler surfaced. In other words, a confrontation of MCDANIELS making was self-realized, for what purpose, I just don't know beyond any theory of sheer incompetence.

It was completely avoidable, and since when has the New England system been a run-first offense even with the ball boy as OC?

Smart moves, well ok, Dawkins was a pretty shrewd move. Upgrading the coaching on defense was mandatory, but it was done well with Nolan in charge.

A couple of secondary signings look good, but the 15 or so RBs seem a little excessive, if not a complete waste of Bowlens money. Sound familiar?

He hasn't done squat with Special Teams other than draft some rookies with skills in that direction. The same erratic kicker and middle-of-the-pack punter are still here.

And a plan? To do what? Rebuild a team that was already set on offense and needed a defensive draft? That plan? To fill the roster with undrafted college FA 'gems' everyone else overlooked in the draft. That plan? How about handing off our 2010 #1 to Seattle for a slow, undersized DB with 'ball skills'. Is that the 'smart' move?

Yeah, wow. With planning like that any team can be the Bengals.

eddie mac
07-06-2009, 04:45 AM
Send him a knife, LCD TV screen and a Big Mac and watch nature take it's course.

cutthemdown
07-06-2009, 07:01 AM
Like you say, it's your opinion the Cutler fiasco was unavoidable, but the facts don't bare that out. Truth is, this ding-dong coach was taking trade for Cassel before any trade talks for Cutler surfaced. In other words, a confrontation of MCDANIELS making was self-realized, for what purpose, I just don't know beyond any theory of sheer incompetence.

It was completely avoidable, and since when has the New England system been a run-first offense even with the ball boy as OC?

Smart moves, well ok, Dawkins was a pretty shrewd move. Upgrading the coaching on defense was mandatory, but it was done well with Nolan in charge.

A couple of secondary signings look good, but the 15 or so RBs seem a little excessive, if not a complete waste of Bowlens money. Sound familiar?

He hasn't done squat with Special Teams other than draft some rookies with skills in that direction. The same erratic kicker and middle-of-the-pack punter are still here.

And a plan? To do what? Rebuild a team that was already set on offense and needed a defensive draft? That plan? To fill the roster with undrafted college FA 'gems' everyone else overlooked in the draft. That plan? How about handing off our 2010 #1 to Seattle for a slow, undersized DB with 'ball skills'. Is that the 'smart' move?

Yeah, wow. With planning like that any team can be the Bengals.

We don't have too many Rbs on the roster so I don't see how that was foolish. All Mcdaniels was left with were scrubs who were all hurt last yr.

The draft wasn't all college FA, that is a bad statement. Ayers, Moreno were solid picks for where they were slotted by your precious pre-media coverage.

Also I happen to think Smith is just a special player. In fact you seem so stupid I'd say it's now a given he is droy.

Also there are just as many reports that say Cutler was talking trade the second Shanny and Bates were let go. You choose to believe Cutler but IMO he seems unbelievable.

Also Mcdaniels probably won't be a run first guy, but he does want rbs who are versatile. He was very prudent in his stockpiling of them. True had arrington worked out health wise a bit of a logjam, but IMO not one now.

Remember Hillis takes out 2 birds with 1 stone and gives Broncos flexibility at the FB spot. Really being upset about the running backs, or calling it a waste of Bowlens money, really just is wrong and makes no sense to me.

SoDak Bronco
07-06-2009, 07:28 AM
Depending what he wants I say pay him. Also need clauses in there that protect the team.

cutthemdown
07-06-2009, 07:28 AM
Depending what he wants I say pay him. Also need clauses in there that protect the team.

He wants 9-10 million a yr.

Mediator12
07-06-2009, 08:14 AM
This is simply ludicrous. Pay him for What? Anyone ever hear of accountability.

IF the guy wanted to get a new contract before this one ran out he had to make better decisions than he has to this point. You simply can not pay a guy who could miss half the year, long term guaranteed money. Plus, he has had a major injury every season to date.

And, as far as him being a good WR, he is. Top 10 though is highly questionable. Like Wes Welker in NE, Marshall is highly dependent on getting 185 passes thrown to him to catch 100 Balls. His numbers are and were based on getting more balls thrown at him than any other player in the league. As far as effectiveness goes, Marshall was the 42cd most effective WR in the league last year, way behind Eddie Royal @ 32. His value per play was 58th in the NFL. In short, Marshall is a volume player who has had a couple of highlight reel plays that makes everyone overvalue his value per play on the field for DEN. That, and everyone is too familiar with him versus the rest of the league.

Now, realizing that and that Cutler Locked in on Marshall so often and he is gone do you really want to pay this guy gauranteed money?

Beantown Bronco
07-06-2009, 08:28 AM
This is simply ludicrous. Pay him for What? Anyone ever hear of accountability.

IF the guy wanted to get a new contract before this one ran out he had to make better decisions than he has to this point. You simply can not pay a guy who could miss half the year, long term guaranteed money. Plus, he has had a major injury every season to date.

And, as far as him being a good WR, he is. Top 10 though is highly questionable. Like Wes Welker in NE, Marshall is highly dependent on getting 185 passes thrown to him to catch 100 Balls. His numbers are and were based on getting more balls thrown at him than any other player in the league. As far as effectiveness goes, Marshall was the 42cd most effective WR in the league last year, way behind Eddie Royal @ 32. His value per play was 58th in the NFL. In short, Marshall is a volume player who has had a couple of highlight reel plays that makes everyone overvalue his value per play on the field for DEN. That, and everyone is too familiar with him versus the rest of the league.

Now, realizing that and that Cutler Locked in on Marshall so often and he is gone do you really want to pay this guy gauranteed money?

In short, yes. So long as there is reasonable protection from suspensions resulting from the off the field stuff.

You say, "Like Wes Welker in NE, Marshall is highly dependent on getting 185 passes thrown to him to catch 100 Balls." But how much of that was the QBs fault? As accurate as Cutler was on certain types of passes, he was equally inaccurate in others. Maybe with a new QB and new system (I know....ha ha), this number won't have to be so skewed.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 08:29 AM
This is simply ludicrous. Pay him for What? Anyone ever hear of accountability.

IF the guy wanted to get a new contract before this one ran out he had to make better decisions than he has to this point. You simply can not pay a guy who could miss half the year, long term guaranteed money. Plus, he has had a major injury every season to date.

And, as far as him being a good WR, he is. Top 10 though is highly questionable. Like Wes Welker in NE, Marshall is highly dependent on getting 185 passes thrown to him to catch 100 Balls. His numbers are and were based on getting more balls thrown at him than any other player in the league. As far as effectiveness goes, Marshall was the 42cd most effective WR in the league last year, way behind Eddie Royal @ 32. His value per play was 58th in the NFL. In short, Marshall is a volume player who has had a couple of highlight reel plays that makes everyone overvalue his value per play on the field for DEN. That, and everyone is too familiar with him versus the rest of the league.

Now, realizing that and that Cutler Locked in on Marshall so often and he is gone do you really want to pay this guy gauranteed money?

How are you going to justify to Kuper and Harris that they should take hometown discounts for a team that is not willing to pay their talent and stay competitive? or have you bought into the Mcdaniels system so much that you think we can replace every single offensive player with street free agents and still win?

TonyR
07-06-2009, 08:45 AM
This is simply ludicrous.

It certainly is, and I'm completely flabbergasted by this "just pay him" mentality. I love Brandon and hope he's a productive player for the Broncos for years to come but there is absolutely no reason to cave to his demands right now.

As for the stats mentioned, here's a link.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

BM is 42nd in DYAR and 58th in DVOA. He had 181 passes thrown to him with the next closest being Andre Johnson at 170 (who ranks 1st and 5th in DYAR and DVOA).

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 08:47 AM
'Trade him' should have been another poll option, but other teams will have the same problem giving BM the big payday that he wants.


Injuries.
Arrests
Suspensions

OrangeRising
07-06-2009, 09:38 AM
We don't have too many Rbs on the roster so I don't see how that was foolish. All Mcdaniels was left with were scrubs who were all hurt last yr.

The draft wasn't all college FA, that is a bad statement. Ayers, Moreno were solid picks for where they were slotted by your precious pre-media coverage.

Also I happen to think Smith is just a special player. In fact you seem so stupid I'd say it's now a given he is droy.

Also there are just as many reports that say Cutler was talking trade the second Shanny and Bates were let go. You choose to believe Cutler but IMO he seems unbelievable.

Also Mcdaniels probably won't be a run first guy, but he does want rbs who are versatile. He was very prudent in his stockpiling of them. True had arrington worked out health wise a bit of a logjam, but IMO not one now.

Remember Hillis takes out 2 birds with 1 stone and gives Broncos flexibility at the FB spot. Really being upset about the running backs, or calling it a waste of Bowlens money, really just is wrong and makes no sense to me.

Wow. I like to think I actually weigh facts to form opinions, but I'm sure your among that shallow pool of deep thinkers that thinks a crap record is ok as long as we're a little more 'competitive'.

You won't admit the truth on this Cutler thing, like I said, shallow end of the pool, and although it's been hashed out in every possible, personal way, the fact is; this coach screwed the whole thing up, and in the process, very possibly screwed the Broncos immediate future because of it.

Al Smith may become a decent nickel back, but is he a top 5 pick in any year? That's what the 2010 Bronco 1st pick will probably be.

droy, oh my. he won't get enough on-field play to qualify unless he were to be named starter, and even then, a slow 5-10 rookie corner would be eaten alive in this division of WR giants.

I take offense to your insults, sir. You are a fool and a McDaniels stooge. Sit on it and twirl.

montrose
07-06-2009, 09:56 AM
or have you bought into the Mcdaniels system so much that you think we can replace every single offensive player with street free agents and still win?

I have! :thumbsup:

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 10:00 AM
I have! :thumbsup:

Oh god, your ex stole your ability to think for yourself! ;)

Mediator12
07-06-2009, 10:08 AM
How are you going to justify to Kuper and Harris that they should take hometown discounts for a team that is not willing to pay their talent and stay competitive? or have you bought into the Mcdaniels system so much that you think we can replace every single offensive player with street free agents and still win?

Why are they in this conversation? There is no way their situation is similar at this point. And, I would pay them market value after we see what they can do in another system. Everyone is graded individually as far as value.

And, When was the last time a team traded for a WR and won anything? WR is the most overexaggerated position on the offense and most dependent on the talent around them. Let's see what Marshall can do in this sytem before you give him stupid money.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 10:25 AM
Why are they in this conversation? There is no way their situation is similar at this point. And, I would pay them market value after we see what they can do in another system. Everyone is graded individually as far as value.

And, When was the last time a team traded for a WR and won anything? WR is the most overexaggerated position on the offense and most dependent on the talent around them. Let's see what Marshall can do in this sytem before you give him stupid money.

New England? Traded for Welker and Moss. WR is overrated eh, tell that to some Arizona fans, they will tell you that their NFC Championship banner says otherwise.

You want to give Kuper a deal in the Derrick Dockery region? (7 years, 49 million with about 20 in signing bonus?) That is market value for a good OG.

How about Harris, do you want to give him Leonard Davis money or Trevelle Wharton money? Davis signed market value for a RT, Wharton signed hometown discount.

We are going to need to sign both those players over the next 12-16 months or lose them. It is going to be more than hard to convince them to resign at a discount if the front office lets our most talented players walk and become known for breaking promises. We have already become the joke of the league ahead of the Raiders in this offseason among fans, lets at least keep our good name among the players so we don't have to overspend ridiculously to make players come to Denver.

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 10:48 AM
Another point of view from Scout.com, posted on FOX.

Point 5: If Denver trades Brandon Marshall, it's not going to lead to more forced defections by other players on the roster.

Back in mid-June, I went on record encouraging Broncos team owner Pat Bowlen to trade his star wide receiver.

"Bowlen would be wise to move Marshall now while he still has some perceived trade value. Because after Marshall's next screw-up, Denver's pool of potential trade partners will shrink even further," I said in this feature at Scout.com.

Since then, others have stated that, on the heels of bowing to Jay Cutler's will and trading him to Chicago, allowing Marshall out of Denver would be a devastating move that would send a message to the rest of the roster that they could demand a trade at will.

That's nonsense.

Cutler and Marshall have been unique situations. Name one other player who has the established star power, youth and potential to stage a coup of that magnitude in Denver. And it's really debatable whether or not Marshall even has that leverage after his plethora of off-the-field shenanigans that may reflect some deep emotional and maturity issues.

While Cutler may have bullied his way out of Denver, trading Marshall is a strategically smart move, and the Broncos can position it with the team that way once a deal is done and the trouble-magnet has packed his bags. They can make it clear that Marshall didn't force this deal, that they were averting a disaster by unloading a chronic problem player and an ongoing distraction to the team. The rest of the team may even release a collective sigh of relief, just as many of the Cowboys did after Terrell Owens was released.

Right now, Denver has to publicly state that they want to hold onto Marshall to protect whatever trade value remains. But as soon as another team is foolish enough to pony up a future first-round pick or a package of existing talent that includes a capable starter at wide receiver to bridge the team this year, the Broncos should take it and run.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9768964/7-Points:-NFC-North-has-interesting-QBs,-for-once

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 10:55 AM
Another point of view from Scout.com, posted on FOX.

Point 5: If Denver trades Brandon Marshall, it's not going to lead to more forced defections by other players on the roster.

Back in mid-June, I went on record encouraging Broncos team owner Pat Bowlen to trade his star wide receiver.

"Bowlen would be wise to move Marshall now while he still has some perceived trade value. Because after Marshall's next screw-up, Denver's pool of potential trade partners will shrink even further," I said in this feature at Scout.com.

Since then, others have stated that, on the heels of bowing to Jay Cutler's will and trading him to Chicago, allowing Marshall out of Denver would be a devastating move that would send a message to the rest of the roster that they could demand a trade at will.

That's nonsense.

Cutler and Marshall have been unique situations. Name one other player who has the established star power, youth and potential to stage a coup of that magnitude in Denver. And it's really debatable whether or not Marshall even has that leverage after his plethora of off-the-field shenanigans that may reflect some deep emotional and maturity issues.

While Cutler may have bullied his way out of Denver, trading Marshall is a strategically smart move, and the Broncos can position it with the team that way once a deal is done and the trouble-magnet has packed his bags. They can make it clear that Marshall didn't force this deal, that they were averting a disaster by unloading a chronic problem player and an ongoing distraction to the team. The rest of the team may even release a collective sigh of relief, just as many of the Cowboys did after Terrell Owens was released.

Right now, Denver has to publicly state that they want to hold onto Marshall to protect whatever trade value remains. But as soon as another team is foolish enough to pony up a future first-round pick or a package of existing talent that includes a capable starter at wide receiver to bridge the team this year, the Broncos should take it and run.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9768964/7-Points:-NFC-North-has-interesting-QBs,-for-once

Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal could all do it. I am not counting people we acquired this year, but doubtlessly Moreno could do it as well, I am sure Dawkins could force the front office as well.

The problem isn't if we trade him, the problem is if we sit him. Once you give him the Ochocinco treatment, you have effectively alienated him and you put yourself in a situation where other players who are going to be in his situation in the future will need some serious convincing that they are not going to get screwed over as well.

azbroncfan
07-06-2009, 10:56 AM
Why are they in this conversation? There is no way their situation is similar at this point. And, I would pay them market value after we see what they can do in another system. Everyone is graded individually as far as value.

And, When was the last time a team traded for a WR and won anything? WR is the most overexaggerated position on the offense and most dependent on the talent around them. Let's see what Marshall can do in this sytem before you give him stupid money.

I know it was never even talked about but it would of been nice to move Marshall for Jennings.

TonyR
07-06-2009, 10:58 AM
Another point of view from Scout.com, posted on FOX.


Good find, DB. And I think it's a solid take, although I don't think anybody will offer a #1 at this point, and if they do I'd hate to see him traded if that's the only compensation.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 10:59 AM
Just as with Jay Cutler, I'm always shocked when people treat franchise-players - serious difference makers - as if they're fringe special-teamers or something. This is not the Army, ya know.

You guys would really hate the NBA ... star players kinda run that league.

TonyR
07-06-2009, 11:00 AM
...you have effectively alienated him and you put yourself in a situation where other players who are going to be in his situation in the future will need some serious convincing that they are not going to get screwed over as well.

They won't "get screwed" if they don't continually get themselves into legal trouble. There is no comparing the situations of all the players you listed with BM. He's not getting paid for a reason, and it's a very good reason.

TonyR
07-06-2009, 11:02 AM
...it would of been nice to move Marshall for Jennings.

Why would Green Bay want to make such a deal?

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 11:03 AM
Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal could all do it. I am not counting people we acquired this year, but doubtlessly Moreno could do it as well, I am sure Dawkins could force the front office as well.


In theory, any player can do what Marshall is doing on any team. Some have over the years.
But if BM had half the maturity and class, not to mention the police records, of those you mention, he wouldn't be holding out.

azbroncfan
07-06-2009, 11:03 AM
Accountability? Please. He's a top 5 wideout in the league and has played his ass off three years running. He has so galactically outplayed his contract, that the great majority - if not all - NFL agents would be (rightfully) jumping all over the team to pay him.

The injury and off-field stuff complicates things of course, but seriously, "accountability"? How about the team being accountable, showing some appreciation? Nobody likes a holdout, but this is the absolute EXTREME situation where a holdout is not out of the ordinary.

They should rework the deal, give him a sizeable base bump and plenty of incentives for this year. So he can save face and come back in ... with the promise of a monster deal if all goes well this year.



It's not his talent that scares Denver it's all the BS and thuggery that he has shown. He has yet to go even 6 months at a time without some negative knock on him. I'm starting to think SLAP's assesment that he dropped to 4th round in the draft were because of character issues was spot on. We don't even hear half of the crap that he does either. He is a time bomb that will explode soon and Denver is scared (and rightfully so) to give him big money because he has already proved he is unable to keep his nose clean.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 11:06 AM
It's not his talent that scares Denver it's all the BS and thuggery that he has shown.

Okay, fine. Don't pay him, shut him out.

Then we'll get to watch him on the highlights every Sunday night somewhere else.

Man, you guys with this anti-star stuff, you would HATE the NBA.

TailgateNut
07-06-2009, 11:09 AM
It's not his talent that scares Denver it's all the BS and thuggery that he has shown. He has yet to go even 6 months at a time without some negative knock on him. I'm starting to think SLAP's assesment that he dropped to 4th round in the draft were because of character issues was spot on. We don't even hear half of the crap that he does either. He is a time bomb that will explode soon and Denver is scared (and rightfully so) to give him big money because he has already proved he is unable to keep his nose clean.

Ding Ding!

azbroncfan
07-06-2009, 11:10 AM
Okay, fine. Don't pay him, shut him out.

Then we'll get to watch him on the highlights every Sunday night somewhere else.

Man, you guys with this anti-star stuff, you would HATE the NBA.

I don't think it's anti star as much as it is anti domestic disputes, Nightclub altercations, DUI's and other BS the guy has done. Would you still have a job if you had all of his run ins with the legal system that he has had? Mine career would of been over after the DUI. It has nothing with him being a star because if he wasn't he would of been out of the league 2 years ago Kircus style.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm sorry med, but accountability? ... Really?!

I think the team should be accountable to him. Otherwise, as we see now, he's gone. Is that what you want? There's a reality here we can't ignore ... the reality is Brandons is a star/superstar now, and no amount of quasi-military pro-management stance can manufacture another star to replace him. I think you just have to make concessions.

When the uncapped year comes next season ... does that mean the CBA expires? If so, do the RFA and Franchise Player clauses expire too? If so, we're gonna be sol with this guy.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't think it's anti star as much as it is anti domestic disputes, Nightclub altercations, DUI's and other BS the guy has done. Would you still have a job if you had all of his run ins with the legal system that he has had? Mine career would of been over after the DUI. It has nothing with him being a star because if he wasn't he would of been out of the league 2 years ago Kircus style.

Okay, your mind is made up ... shut him out, and let him go elsewhere.

I just disagree.

TailgateNut
07-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Okay, fine. Don't pay him, shut him out.

Then we'll get to watch him on the highlights every Sunday night somewhere else.

Man, you guys with this anti-star stuff, you would HATE the NBA.

I don't hate the NBA. Just don't give a **** about it.

...and once the NFL turns into the NBA (they're getting close), I'm givin' up on it, and watching football on Friday nights.:~ohyah!:

Garcia Bronco
07-06-2009, 11:18 AM
pay him, and then put him on special teams.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 11:21 AM
They won't "get screwed" if they don't continually get themselves into legal trouble. There is no comparing the situations of all the players you listed with BM. He's not getting paid for a reason, and it's a very good reason.

Cutler never got in legal trouble, so as long as people bunch Cutler and Marshall together, legal trouble is not a valid excuse not to compare Harris, Clady and Bailey to Marshall.

azbroncfan
07-06-2009, 11:23 AM
Okay, your mind is made up ... shut him out, and let him go elsewhere.

I just disagree.

Obviously you didn't read many posts in here because you skipped the post where I said pay him but put a bunch of anti thug/behavior clauses in it.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 11:23 AM
In theory, any player can do what Marshall is doing on any team. Some have over the years.
But if BM had half the maturity and class, not to mention the police records, of those you mention, he wouldn't be holding out.

Would you say that Casey Wiegman is one of the classiest and maturest players on the roster?

Would you say that John Lynch is about as classy and mature as the come when we talk NFL players?

To my knowledge neither of the two above have ever been in legal trouble.

Wiegman made it publicly known that he would most likely not be at TC if he didn't get a new contract. Lynch made it known that he would retire if he wasn't traded or cut so he could find another team. It seems that class and maturity have nothing to do with holding out.

Garcia Bronco
07-06-2009, 11:29 AM
I don't hate the NBA. Just don't give a **** about it.

...and once the NFL turns into the NBA (they're getting close), I'm givin' up on it, and watching football on Friday nights.:~ohyah!:

HS ball is fun to watch.

vancejohnson82
07-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Would you say that Casey Wiegman is one of the classiest and maturest players on the roster?

Would you say that John Lynch is about as classy and mature as the come when we talk NFL players?

To my knowledge neither of the two above have ever been in legal trouble.

Wiegman made it publicly known that he would most likely not be at TC if he didn't get a new contract. Lynch made it known that he would retire if he wasn't traded or cut so he could find another team. It seems that class and maturity have nothing to do with holding out.

I dont think anyone is questioning his "maturity" for holding out...

what people are questioning is how he can believe he deserves a new contract when it seems like every two months his employers have to deal with a new problem....its like a kid being suspended from school and then wondering why you didnt buy him an XBox

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Obviously you didn't read many posts in here because you skipped the post where I said pay him but put a bunch of anti thug/behavior clauses in it.

Okay, fair enough ... then WE AGREE :flower:

The longer he sits out, the less he'll learn of this complicated system. We already know he's not a rocket scientist, but he is a top 5 - top 10 talent. So if we're not gonna trade him, get him in here somehow. Now.

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 11:39 AM
Would you say that Casey Wiegman is one of the classiest and maturest players on the roster?

Would you say that John Lynch is about as classy and mature as the come when we talk NFL players?

To my knowledge neither of the two above have ever been in legal trouble.

Wiegman made it publicly known that he would most likely not be at TC if he didn't get a new contract. Lynch made it known that he would retire if he wasn't traded or cut so he could find another team. It seems that class and maturity have nothing to do with holding out.

Whoa, way to switch horses.
You mentioned: Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal and Dawkins.....Not Lynch or Weigman.

I had already acknowledged that other players have gone down similar routes.

However, Lynch wanted to be let go because his role was going to be reduced, he went to NE and found the same scenario and retired. He didn't hold out or demand more money.
Weigman, didn't hold out and was deservedly rewarded with a new contract. He was originally paid as a backup, ended up starting and going to the pro bowl.

If BM wasn't such a police magnet, NFL suspension liability or injured and holding out, he'd probably be getting a new contract too.

Absolutely no comparison.

TailgateNut
07-06-2009, 11:40 AM
I'm sorry med, but accountability? ... Really?!

I think the team should be accountable to him. Otherwise, as we see now, he's gone. Is that what you want? There's a reality here we can't ignore ... the reality is Brandons is a star/superstar now, and no amount of quasi-military pro-management stance can manufacture another star to replace him. I think you just have to make concessions.

When the uncapped year comes next season ... does that mean the CBA expires? If so, do the RFA and Franchise Player clauses expire too? If so, we're gonna be sol with this guy.

Yo Bro!

I wont go quite a far with the annointment of "the superstar". We have several "lingering" issues.
1.The Hips (are there any issues with the surgery and recovery? ...and is this why he didn't want the Bronco staff Doctors to treat/ evaluate him?)
2. His next court date could come back to haunt him and his team (be it the Broncos or some other team)
3. His "feeling issues" in his injured arm/claw?
4. His habit of getting in trouble with women and the law. Eventually it will not be able to be "swept under the rug". He's a "timebomb with a short fuse". A dangerous toy.

2KBack
07-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Would you say that Casey Wiegman is one of the classiest and maturest players on the roster?

Would you say that John Lynch is about as classy and mature as the come when we talk NFL players?

To my knowledge neither of the two above have ever been in legal trouble.

Wiegman made it publicly known that he would most likely not be at TC if he didn't get a new contract. Lynch made it known that he would retire if he wasn't traded or cut so he could find another team. It seems that class and maturity have nothing to do with holding out.

You kinda of argued against your own point. Neither of those guys have ever had any sort of off the field problems, and were considered consummate professionals over their entire careers. This is why they can make those types of demands. Casey also didn't miss a single workout or team function during his negotiation with the team.

Marshall has had two potential career ending surgeries in 2 years. One was his own fault and by his admittance effected his ability to play. He has already been suspended once and has yet to show he can remain off the police blotter. Which means likely future suspensions.

If Marshall handled himself like Casey or Lynch, he wouldn't be in this situation. If Kuper and Harris carry themselves like professionals (which all signs point to them doing so), they will be treated as such and likely be taken care of.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-06-2009, 12:03 PM
He is set to become a restricted free agent next year. It would take a 1st and 3rd, plus a new contract for another team to get him next year. That's another 365 days worth of exposure to lawful society for a guy who historically cannot stay out of trouble. He's on a last chance basis with a hair-trigger commissioner as it is. If these were his only problems, he would still have zero leverage in forcing a new deal. Now add in his medical history and the situation becomes downright comical.

If I were GM I'd tell his agent to find a team willing to give up a 1 and 3... which is next year's guaranteed value. Find a team willing to do this and I'd guarantee a trade on the spot. Otherwise see you in camp... or tell your client he'll pay every single fine that was collectively bargained.

TonyR
07-06-2009, 12:06 PM
...the situation becomes downright comical....


Great post Dr. B. This is really very simple, I don't know why so many are over complicating it.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Yo Bro!

I wont go quite a far with the annointment of "the superstar". We have several "lingering" issues.
1.The Hips (are there any issues with the surgery and recovery? ...and is this why he didn't want the Bronco staff Doctors to treat/ evaluate him?)
2. His next court date could come back to haunt him and his team (be it the Broncos or some other team)
3. His "feeling issues" in his injured arm/claw?
4. His habit of getting in trouble with women and the law. Eventually it will not be able to be "swept under the rug". He's a "timebomb with a short fuse". A dangerous toy.

Yes yes ... granted, all. By "star/superstar" I was referring to his on-field skill only. And hasn't it been fairly well settled that "the claw" is not a problem? Most of his drops last year were in that one game, and he's hardly the only wideout to have occasional dropsies.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 12:11 PM
He is set to become a restricted free agent next year. It would take a 1st and 3rd, plus a new contract for another team to get him next year. That's another 365 days worth of exposure to lawful society for a guy who historically cannot stay out of trouble. He's on a last chance basis with a hair-trigger commissioner as it is. If these were his only problems, he would still have zero leverage in forcing a new deal. Now add in his medical history and the situation becomes downright comical.

If I were GM I'd tell his agent to find a team willing to give up a 1 and 3... which is next year's guaranteed value. Find a team willing to do this and I'd guarantee a trade on the spot. Otherwise see you in camp... or tell your client he'll pay every single fine that was collectively bargained.

Again, all these points I grant you.

But it all comes down to this question: do we want him in camp learning and on the field on opening day? Of course. So we gotta make it happen, with reasonable safeguards for the team.

Seems like an easy call to me.

Los Broncos
07-06-2009, 12:24 PM
Pay him we need him on the field.

2KBack
07-06-2009, 12:24 PM
Again, all these points I grant you.

But it all comes down to this question: do we want him in camp learning and on the field on opening day? Of course. So we gotta make it happen, with reasonable safeguards for the team.

Seems like an easy call to me.

Do we know that there isn't an incentive laden deal with protection clauses on the table already that Marshall has rejected?

Dr. Broncenstein
07-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Again, all these points I grant you.

But it all comes down to this question: do we want him in camp learning and on the field on opening day? Of course. So we gotta make it happen, with reasonable safeguards for the team.

Seems like an easy call to me.

Honestly, I don't care either way. I just want to see the front office call this idiot's bluff.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Whoa, way to switch horses.
You mentioned: Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal and Dawkins.....Not Lynch or Weigman.

I had already acknowledged that other players have gone down similar routes.

However, Lynch wanted to be let go because his role was going to be reduced, he went to NE and found the same scenario and retired. He didn't hold out or demand more money.
Weigman, didn't hold out and was deservedly rewarded with a new contract. He was originally paid as a backup, ended up starting and going to the pro bowl.

If BM wasn't such a police magnet, NFL suspension liability or injured and holding out, he'd probably be getting a new contract too.

Absolutely no comparison.

You said that if he was mature and classy he wouldn't hold out, I am just pointing out that mature and classy players can also play rough, both players said that they would retire rather than play out their contracts in Denver. Marshall hasn't missed a single practice session he could have participated in.

Wiegman said that he probably wouldn't show up for TC if he didn't get a new contract, Marshall has said that he want a new contract and has so far stayed away from 1 minicamp, I don't see a significant difference, except that the team lived up to its promises if renegotiating with one player and so far have yet to live up to that same promise with the other.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 12:35 PM
You kinda of argued against your own point. Neither of those guys have ever had any sort of off the field problems, and were considered consummate professionals over their entire careers. This is why they can make those types of demands. Casey also didn't miss a single workout or team function during his negotiation with the team.

Marshall has had two potential career ending surgeries in 2 years. One was his own fault and by his admittance effected his ability to play. He has already been suspended once and has yet to show he can remain off the police blotter. Which means likely future suspensions.

If Marshall handled himself like Casey or Lynch, he wouldn't be in this situation. If Kuper and Harris carry themselves like professionals (which all signs point to them doing so), they will be treated as such and likely be taken care of.

Casey said that he would probably not at TC if he didn't get a new contract, considering that TC is the next OTA, that sounds as close to a holdout as you get.

Marshall hasn't missed a single practice session he could have participated in, if he had been there for minicamp he would spend the whole time on a stationary bike on the sideline.

Lynch had two near career ending neck injuries.

So you are saying that if Harris and Kuper stay out of trouple, they only have to threaten to retire in order to get a new contract? I like your argument, but it doesn't seem like a good situation to be in that every player has to threaten to retire in order to get new contracts when they are definitely deserved based on the players performance.

Maybe that is what Marshall should do then, no holding out, just say he is retiring.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 12:37 PM
He is set to become a restricted free agent next year. It would take a 1st and 3rd, plus a new contract for another team to get him next year. That's another 365 days worth of exposure to lawful society for a guy who historically cannot stay out of trouble. He's on a last chance basis with a hair-trigger commissioner as it is. If these were his only problems, he would still have zero leverage in forcing a new deal. Now add in his medical history and the situation becomes downright comical.

If I were GM I'd tell his agent to find a team willing to give up a 1 and 3... which is next year's guaranteed value. Find a team willing to do this and I'd guarantee a trade on the spot. Otherwise see you in camp... or tell your client he'll pay every single fine that was collectively bargained.

He is one of the players whom the new CBA could really help. I don't see how the players are not going to insist on a more transparent suspension process and an independent appeal process, that would really help protect players from the completely arbitrary suspensions handed out by Dr. Goodell.

montrose
07-06-2009, 12:40 PM
As a disclaimer: I love watching Marshall play and hope he could spend his whole career here.

With that, I agree with Med in that the WR position is a bit over-exaggerated and in the case of Brandon Marshall - sometimes people forget that he was targeted 180 times and his YPC was no greater than that of Daniel Graham. Couple that with a lack of TD's, his off field stuff and the fact that we've yet to see how productive he'll be in this offense (a great point by Med) - and I completely agree with waiting on giving him big money. Now I certainly believe that the arm and hip injuries effected him last season as he was not the same player he was in 2007 and it's quite possible he could return to that level of play. But it's also possible that he may not. If we're going to move him, why not do it now and just make a clean break during this very hectic offseason? Again, I'd prefer to keep him, but not at the expense of giving him a big deal right now. Now if he's willing to take a deal below market value, that's a different story.

I don't believe we can turn chicken sh*t into chicken salad, but I do think that with a great OL and RB, a solid system QB and a talented backfield this offense can be very productive with or without Marshall. I was telling Kaylore over the phone that I'd expect our offense to be more similar to the 2006 one Josh McDaniels ran than the Randy Moss/Wes Welker offenses of the past two seasons. For those who may not remember, the 06 Patriots went to the AFC Title Game (and should've won if not for their defense) with an offense that ranked 7th in points (the offensive ranking that matters). Corey Dillon and Laurence Maroney combined for over 1,500 yards - an amount I believe Knowshon Moreno and Peyton Hillis could reach; while they ammassed over 3,500 yards receiving with a corps of Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Doug Gabriel, Graham, Ben Watson, Chad Jackson and Jabar Gaffney that I believe is weaker than one of Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, Brandon Lloyd, Tony Scheffler, Graham, Gaffney and Jackson. With proper playcalling and coaching, along with a solid OL, I think Kyle Orton can (and will) effectively run this type offense which will lead us to a very solid season.

Beantown Bronco
07-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Do we know that there isn't an incentive laden deal with protection clauses on the table already that Marshall has rejected?

The real question is, if there were such an offer made, would Bowlen ever remember making it?

2KBack
07-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Casey said that he would probably not at TC if he didn't get a new contract, considering that TC is the next OTA, that sounds as close to a holdout as you get.

Marshall hasn't missed a single practice session he could have participated in, if he had been there for minicamp he would spend the whole time on a stationary bike on the sideline.

Lynch had two near career ending neck injuries.

So you are saying that if Harris and Kuper stay out of trouple, they only have to threaten to retire in order to get a new contract? I like your argument, but it doesn't seem like a good situation to be in that every player has to threaten to retire in order to get new contracts when they are definitely deserved based on the players performance.

Maybe that is what Marshall should do then, no holding out, just say he is retiring.

Yep Casey said that, and then proved that he wants to play by showing up, working, and learning the complex new offense. Not to mention building some chemistry with the new QB's.

John Lynch didn't demand anything until he proved that he could play after the neck injuries, because he is smart enough to know that you have to prove you can play to get paid.

How ****ing hard is it to understand that you earn the treatment you receive? Marshall hasn't earned **** yet. Any goodwill he has earned on the field has been destroyed by his actions off the field. He might be the single biggest liability in the NFL right now, in 3 years he has done enough damage to warrant his own ESPN special.

As for the other players, you still aren't getting it. You treat the team right, and they will treat you right. Harris and Kuper won't have to threaten anything because they aren't jackasses.

TailgateNut
07-06-2009, 01:00 PM
Yep Casey said that, and then proved that he wants to play by showing up, working, and learning the complex new offense. Not to mention building some chemistry with the new QB's.

John Lynch didn't demand anything until he proved that he could play after the neck injuries, because he is smart enough to know that you have to prove you can play to get paid.

How ****ing hard is it to understand that you earn the treatment you receive? Marshall hasn't earned **** yet. Any goodwill he has earned on the field has been destroyed by his actions off the field. He might be the single biggest liability in the NFL right now, in 3 years he has done enough damage to warrant his own ESPN special.

As for the other players, you still aren't getting it. You treat the team right, and they will treat you right. Harris and Kuper won't have to threaten anything because they aren't jackasses.

I just don't understand why people are willing to put on blinders for BMs (Bowel Movements) sake. He's been a turd, and, IMO, it's just a matter of time before he does a Ray Carruth.

Rock Chalk
07-06-2009, 01:12 PM
You're probably correct. I'm not saying Brandon has the balls to do it.

What I am saying is, however, that you can't just "not pay him and play him." If he has the stones to do it, he'll sit. I mean, you can't force him to do anything. He'll make his choice how he wants to handle the situation.

Yes you can.

If Marshall chooses to sit, he forfeits anoterh year of RFA. He also doesnt get paid. He also loses out on a year of football of his career.

Denver holds all teh cards here. Not Marshall. He is in no position to pout or make demands or sit out.

No, you cant FORCE him to play physically, but you can force his hand. He wont sit out and Denver shouldnt pay him a nickle on a contract without a ****LOAD of clauses. I suspect Marshall turned down an offer with such clauses.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 01:24 PM
Yep Casey said that, and then proved that he wants to play by showing up, working, and learning the complex new offense. Not to mention building some chemistry with the new QB's.

John Lynch didn't demand anything until he proved that he could play after the neck injuries, because he is smart enough to know that you have to prove you can play to get paid.

How ****ing hard is it to understand that you earn the treatment you receive? Marshall hasn't earned **** yet. Any goodwill he has earned on the field has been destroyed by his actions off the field. He might be the single biggest liability in the NFL right now, in 3 years he has done enough damage to warrant his own ESPN special.

As for the other players, you still aren't getting it. You treat the team right, and they will treat you right. Harris and Kuper won't have to threaten anything because they aren't jackasses.

By your own admission Wiegman did everything right by the team, and yet he had to threaten to retire to make them live up to the promise they made him to renegotiate his contract. I don't see how that is treating him right, he came in at a backup salary, played all year, went to the pro bowl, showed up to every minicamp and voluntary OTA and still the team didn't talk about the new contract THEY PROMISED him until he threatened to hang up the cleats. That is not treating him right, he clearly deserved a better treatment, and that was the treatment a guy who by all accounts is a team leader and a standup guy and a model citizen got.

If anything Harris and Kuper have seen that it is not enough to outplay your contract, it is not enough to show up to every single OTA, it is not enough to amiably ask for a new contract, you still have to take the team hostage to get anything done. What kind of message is that to send to players who could and probably should be in pro-bowl contention? that they are not going to get a new contract despite doing every single thing they could and should.

I am not saying Marshall should get a Larry Fitzgerald contract, but there is no way it doesn't look bad on the FO and the team as a whole if they reneg on their promise to Marshall to look into an extension and if they do nothing to accomodate him. If you are not going to trade him, then he needs some sort of extension with appropriate security for the team should he get suspended for off field behaviour.

2KBack
07-06-2009, 01:38 PM
By your own admission Wiegman did everything right by the team, and yet he had to threaten to retire to make them live up to the promise they made him to renegotiate his contract. I don't see how that is treating him right, he came in at a backup salary, played all year, went to the pro bowl, showed up to every minicamp and voluntary OTA and still the team didn't talk about the new contract THEY PROMISED him until he threatened to hang up the cleats. That is not treating him right, he clearly deserved a better treatment, and that was the treatment a guy who by all accounts is a team leader and a standup guy and a model citizen got.

If anything Harris and Kuper have seen that it is not enough to outplay your contract, it is not enough to show up to every single OTA, it is not enough to amiably ask for a new contract, you still have to take the team hostage to get anything done. What kind of message is that to send to players who could and probably should be in pro-bowl contention? that they are not going to get a new contract despite doing every single thing they could and should.

I am not saying Marshall should get a Larry Fitzgerald contract, but there is no way it doesn't look bad on the FO and the team as a whole if they reneg on their promise to Marshall to look into an extension and if they do nothing to accomodate him. If you are not going to trade him, then he needs some sort of extension with appropriate security for the team should he get suspended for off field behaviour.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=81145

Read that article again and tell me if it sounds as threatening as you are trying to represent. There were bumps in the negotiation, and Casey said if things aren't right, he'll just hang them up. If you can't see the difference...well that's your own fault.

I can't fathom how you don't understand the rift between Marshall and the FO, and how no one in their right mind should see fault in how the Broncos are apprehensive about Marshall. There is no way in Hell I give that guy a new contract right now. Not until he shows he can go one (JUST ONE!) year without getting arrested, oh yeah and shows that he can still play after hip surgery. Shouldn't be too tough, I've managed 30 years with no arrests so far.

Kaylore
07-06-2009, 01:52 PM
I say both but start with "let him sit" until he comes in and works and if he's doing well then reward him during the season.

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 01:55 PM
You said that if he was mature and classy he wouldn't hold out, I am just pointing out that mature and classy players can also play rough, both players said that they would retire rather than play out their contracts in Denver. Marshall hasn't missed a single practice session he could have participated in.

Wiegman said that he probably wouldn't show up for TC if he didn't get a new contract, Marshall has said that he want a new contract and has so far stayed away from 1 minicamp, I don't see a significant difference, except that the team lived up to its promises if renegotiating with one player and so far have yet to live up to that same promise with the other.

I said if he had the maturity and class of those players you mentioned.....Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal and Dawkins, he wouldn't be holding out as a negotiating tactic.....especially in light of his arrests, injuries and suspensions.
Of course, if had that level of class and maturity, he wouldn't have the 15 police incidents and suspensions.
Regardless, if he expects a big payday (9mil a year) then he's been doing it all wrong, and is now making his situation worse.
He's immature and irresponsible....that's not conjecture but a fact.

And Marshall has missed practices that he could have participated in.
He's no rocket scientist and missing mini-camp means he isn't learning the new offensive scheme or spending time with his new QB and teammates.
He could have participated, but he's holding out.

broncocalijohn
07-06-2009, 02:05 PM
I'm torn on this one. On one hand, it's better to have Marshall on the field than on his couch. We'll sure win more games with him than without him. On the other hand, the Broncos should think twice about setting a precedent when it comes to caving in on contract/trade demands.

u needed more options on this one. As a player, he has been underpaid as he signed a contract based on a 5th round pick (not sure why agents dont put in bonuses based on exceptional play), but his attitude and lack of self discipline doesnt give him too much wiggle room anymore as he might be (once again) looking at another suspension. So, based on the 2 options you gave and my explanation, I didnt vote. If BMTFC (Brandon Marshall The Flava Clown) is giving more of an attitude of not liking the city, the coaches or whatever and demands a trade no matter what the contract is, then I would say sit him. I would rather see him man up and get into camp and have the front office restructure a contract based on no suspensions and work ethic that fits Denver Broncos football. If he doesnt have the confidence in him as much as the Broncos have confidence in his playing abilities, then screw the prima donna and let him rot. If there is a time to end "the patients are running the asylum", then this might be it.

rastaman
07-06-2009, 03:18 PM
BMarsh needs to get into camp to collect as much of his 2.2 mil salary. However, having said that, Marshall needs to get his hip healed first and foremost. He can ill-afford to rush back to quick b/c should he re-injur the hip.....the only apprecication he'll receive from the Broncos and (SOME FANS) are "What-have-you-done-for-me Lately"!!

So Brandon needs to realize he's about as valuabe as one of "NEROS" Gladiators. In essence....he's just a Piece of Meat......that's the reality. We have some fans who don't appreciate just how dangerous and injury riddled playing in the NFL really is.

As far as BMarsh playing with reckless-risky abandon as he played in 07 & 08......he needs to cut that crap out, b/c thats how he more than likely injured his hip in the first place. Cutting back against the grain, trying to make something out of nothing, allowing 2 or 3 guys to take shots at his body is just plain STUPID!

Not only will his career be shorten with this method of playing, but its obvious with his contract problems in Denver.....the Broncos have taken BMarsh's method of play on the field for granted.

Denver is looking out for its best interest and Marshall needs to look out for his best interest. Here's my advice to Marshall, treat eveything like a business. If you know you only have 2 years left in Denver after your original 4 yearf contract is up, get in there and take care of buisness not b/c you love playing in Denver, and love the coaches, and teammates. Get into camp b/c you are putting your career FIRST......and you're looking for that long term NFL contract.

Run crisp patterns, catch the catchable passes (yeah I know Orty is throwing you the ball), and please play smart! The Broncos will pay you the same whether 1, 2, or 3 players tackle you! So do the smart thing go down with the first hit......save the wear tear on your body. Teams aren't looking for top 5 NFL WR's who play with wreckless-career shortening risky abandon, these teams are looking for WR's who cause mis-matches, who run crisp routes, and who can catch.

Extend your career and land that big contract by your 6th year in the NFL b/c you know out animostity and spite, the Broncos will probably tag you b/c their pissed at you for not wanting to be Bronco. If you can stay healthy and stay out of trouble your big NFL contract is just around the corner.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-06-2009, 03:31 PM
BMarsh needs to get into camp to collect as much of his 2.2 mil salary. However, having said that, Marshall needs to get his hip healed first and foremost. He can ill-afford to rush back to quick b/c should he re-injur the hip.....the only apprecication he'll receive from the Broncos and (SOME FANS) are "What-have-you-done-for-me Lately"!!

So Brandon needs to realize he's about as valuabe as one of "NEROS" Gladiators. In essence....he's just a Piece of Meat......that's the reality. We have some fans who don't appreciate just how dangerous and injury riddled playing in the NFL really is.

As far as BMarsh playing with reckless-risky abandon as he played in 07 & 08......he needs to cut that crap out, b/c thats how he more than likely injured his hip in the first place. Cutting back against the grain, trying to make something out of nothing, allowing 2 or 3 guys to take shots at his body is just plain STUPID!

Not only will his career be shorten with this method of playing, but its obvious with his contract problems in Denver.....the Broncos have taken BMarsh's method of play on the field for granted.

Denver is looking out for its best interest and Marshall needs to look out for his best interest. Here's my advice to Marshall, treat eveything like a business. If you know you only have 2 years left in Denver after your original 4 yearf contract is up, get in there and take care of buisness not b/c you love playing in Denver, and love the coaches, and teammates. Get into camp b/c you are putting your career FIRST......and you're looking for that long term NFL contract.

Run crisp patterns, catch the catchable passes (yeah I know Orty is throwing you the ball), and please play smart! The Broncos will pay you the same whether 1, 2, or 3 players tackle you! So do the smart thing go down with the first hit......save the wear tear on your body. Teams aren't looking for top 5 NFL WR's who play with wreckless-career shortening risky abandon, these teams are looking for WR's who cause mis-matches, who run crisp routes, and who can catch.

Extend your career and land that big contract by your 6th year in the NFL b/c you know out animostity and spite, the Broncos will probably tag you b/c their pissed at you for not wanting to be Bronco. If you can stay healthy and stay out of trouble your big NFL contract is just around the corner.

What will you do with your BMarsh the Beast pajamas if he follows your advice?

cutthemdown
07-06-2009, 04:15 PM
By the way its not like Marshall not getting paid. This is what happens when you don't get it done at a big school in college and have some character concerns. You drop in the draft and don't get big money. Then you have to sign a deal that says I'm just glad to be in the NFL, thank you Broncos for the chance!!!! Then you actually play well and Broncos say you can start now, Keep this up and who knows, maybe big money for you yet Brandon, but he goes and beats up girls, and gets a dui, and slices off half his forearm, and gets a hip injury, and then refuses to report. Hell that's not even going into the dreaded he talked trash to gang members and got Darrent bushwhacked. I have no idea if that is true, but all the other stuff is.

Brandon wants to take shortcuts, he wants to say I have changed instead of showing he has changed. Broncos should hold tight and see how he handles it. I doubt any team wants this train wreck for a 1st round pick and a 10 mil a yr deal so Brandon can feel big about himself and live the high life.

These Broncos need to win a goddam ****ing thing before they get so high and mighty. I for one can now see for sure why Shanny had to go. Shanny had gotten soft and had a bunch of primadonnas on his team. The since of entitlement these players only in NFL for 3-4 yrs feel is pretty funny.

Win a ****ing Superbowl then become famous you punks!!!!!!

rastaman
07-06-2009, 04:34 PM
What will you do with your BMarsh the Beast pajamas if he follows your advice?

Hey dude it is sound advice. You must be wearing Bowlen-McDaniel's Lingerie! :wiggle:

Brandon needs to treat the NFL as a business, take care of numero uno, play smart, try and stay injury free, extend your career, set yourself for that long term "big bonus" NFL contract. Owners in the NFL will always make money and die one day with their teams worth 100's millions or billions, the fans can watch the game and cheer-lead and root for the players and the teams for 70 plus years.

Neither owner nor fans risk bodily and mental injuries for the game of professional football. The owners would not exist and fans would have nothing to cheer for WITHOUT THE PLAYERS.....THE PLAYERS ARE THE NFL!!! Players only have a short window of opportunity with their careers due to the physicality and violence with playing in the NFL......so yeah, I tend to side with the players.

rastaman
07-06-2009, 04:35 PM
By the way its not like Marshall not getting paid. This is what happens when you don't get it done at a big school in college and have some character concerns. You drop in the draft and don't get big money. Then you have to sign a deal that says I'm just glad to be in the NFL, thank you Broncos for the chance!!!! Then you actually play well and Broncos say you can start now, Keep this up and who knows, maybe big money for you yet Brandon, but he goes and beats up girls, and gets a dui, and slices off half his forearm, and gets a hip injury, and then refuses to report. Hell that's not even going into the dreaded he talked trash to gang members and got Darrent bushwhacked. I have no idea if that is true, but all the other stuff is.

Brandon wants to take shortcuts, he wants to say I have changed instead of showing he has changed. Broncos should hold tight and see how he handles it. I doubt any team wants this train wreck for a 1st round pick and a 10 mil a yr deal so Brandon can feel big about himself and live the high life.

These Broncos need to win a goddam ****ing thing before they get so high and mighty. I for one can now see for sure why Shanny had to go. Shanny had gotten soft and had a bunch of primadonnas on his team. The since of entitlement these players only in NFL for 3-4 yrs feel is pretty funny.

Win a ****ing Superbowl then become famous you punks!!!!!!

There is nothing soft about BMarsh's game.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 04:36 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=81145

Read that article again and tell me if it sounds as threatening as you are trying to represent. There were bumps in the negotiation, and Casey said if things aren't right, he'll just hang them up. If you can't see the difference...well that's your own fault.

I can't fathom how you don't understand the rift between Marshall and the FO, and how no one in their right mind should see fault in how the Broncos are apprehensive about Marshall. There is no way in Hell I give that guy a new contract right now. Not until he shows he can go one (JUST ONE!) year without getting arrested, oh yeah and shows that he can still play after hip surgery. Shouldn't be too tough, I've managed 30 years with no arrests so far.

If things aren't right = If I haven't gotten a new contract

Just hang em up = retiring.

So what you are saying is that Wiegman said if he didn't get a new contract he would retire, which is what I have been saying.

You do realize that if he shows up and does one year without getting arrested he will go somewhere else, for nothing. How will that help the team? what is best for the team is to have Marshall out there playing or trade him.

gyldenlove
07-06-2009, 04:40 PM
I said if he had the maturity and class of those players you mentioned.....Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Champ Bailey, Eddie Royal and Dawkins, he wouldn't be holding out as a negotiating tactic.....especially in light of his arrests, injuries and suspensions.
Of course, if had that level of class and maturity, he wouldn't have the 15 police incidents and suspensions.
Regardless, if he expects a big payday (9mil a year) then he's been doing it all wrong, and is now making his situation worse.
He's immature and irresponsible....that's not conjecture but a fact.

And Marshall has missed practices that he could have participated in.
He's no rocket scientist and missing mini-camp means he isn't learning the new offensive scheme or spending time with his new QB and teammates.
He could have participated, but he's holding out.

I would say Wiegman has as much maturity and class as any of that group, Clady, Harris, Royal etc, but he threatened to retire as a negotiation strategy, clearly playing hardball when it comes to a contract is not dependent on class or maturity.

How could Marshall have participated in minicamp, he can barely walk? he would have been sitting on a stationary bike or rocking the awesome PJ bottoms on the massage bench the whole time, but I can see how that would be imperative for him in learning the new offense. Fact is that he couldn't have done squat during minicamp and that the FO renegging on their promise to look at a new contract caused him to skip it.

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 06:06 PM
I would say Wiegman has as much maturity and class as any of that group, Clady, Harris, Royal etc, but he threatened to retire as a negotiation strategy, clearly playing hardball when it comes to a contract is not dependent on class or maturity.

How could Marshall have participated in minicamp, he can barely walk? he would have been sitting on a stationary bike or rocking the awesome PJ bottoms on the massage bench the whole time, but I can see how that would be imperative for him in learning the new offense. Fact is that he couldn't have done squat during minicamp and that the FO renegging on their promise to look at a new contract caused him to skip it.

Got a link to a source? I had not read that.

azbroncfan
07-06-2009, 06:13 PM
How could Marshall have participated in minicamp, he can barely walk? he would have been sitting on a stationary bike or rocking the awesome PJ bottoms on the massage bench the whole time, but I can see how that would be imperative for him in learning the new offense. Fact is that he couldn't have done squat during minicamp and that the FO renegging on their promise to look at a new contract caused him to skip it.

He could of worked on study/learning the playbook since he has proved over and over he isn't a very fast learner. That would keep him away from the nightclubs and the women that his is going to abuse in some form if he has too much time around them.

Popps
07-06-2009, 06:41 PM
I should qualify my vote a bit.

If he comes into camp and plays to his contract and stays clean for a bit, I'm all for extending him to some sort of team-protective contract.

I'm obviously not a fan of the guy as a person, but that's not going to change the business of things... and the business is that we need his skills, but not without protective provisions in a major way.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-06-2009, 06:46 PM
I should qualify my vote a bit.

If he comes into camp and plays to his contract and stays clean for a bit, I'm all for extending him to some sort of team-protective contract.

I'm obviously not a fan of the guy as a person, but that's not going to change the business of things... and the business is that we need his skills, but not without protective provisions in a major way.

Hater.

cutthemdown
07-06-2009, 07:10 PM
There is nothing soft about BMarsh's game.

UUUHH where did I say anything about his game being soft.

I said he should have worked harder, been a higher draft pick, if he wants big money in the first 3-4 yrs of a contract. Brandon was a low pick and this is what they have to do, wait for the big money.

Fitz was a really high pick so he get's paid much earlier, just how it works.

No I said Shanny had gotten soft. He let players become coddled and arrogant. Broncos stars, even though they have not won, seem a little on the arrogant side. IMO they just don't like Mcdaniels team first approach.

Brandon has not proved he is worth a big money deal. Not with his off field problems and his hip injury. He has more to prove and the fact no team has yet offered a first and 3rd next yr proves he isn't.

Basically other teams see him like we do. Really good physical player with a ton of problems. You don't pay those types until you have to.

DenverBrit
07-06-2009, 07:21 PM
It certainly is, and I'm completely flabbergasted by this "just pay him" mentality. I love Brandon and hope he's a productive player for the Broncos for years to come but there is absolutely no reason to cave to his demands right now.

As for the stats mentioned, here's a link.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

BM is 42nd in DYAR and 58th in DVOA. He had 181 passes thrown to him with the next closest being Andre Johnson at 170 (who ranks 1st and 5th in DYAR and DVOA).

Along similar lines, Mile High Report posted a very interesting article about Marshall and his stats.
It's eye opening.

Brandon Marshall reception rate: 57.1% (one notch above.........Devin Hester, yes, Devin Hester!!)
Eddie Royal reception rate: 70.5%

Here's the story and stats.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/7/1/934962/brandon-marshalls-on-field-problems

fdf
07-06-2009, 07:25 PM
. . . Incentive laden deal, whatever we gotta do. . . .

These two clauses are contradictory. If he would take an incentive laden deal tied to performance and off-field behavior, I'd be all for it and I suspect the deal would already have been done. I suspect BM is asking for a big guaranteed amount. The big guaranteed deal is "whatever we gotta do . . . "

But he's not going to sit the year out. Big fines and, if he sits out too long, we get another year before he becomes an RFA.

Eventually, he will figure out that the only deal available right now is incentive laden. If his health is good, it makes more sense for him to have a great season under his existing contract and make it thru a whole year without hitting anyone or driving drunk or getting his arm cut or . . . and then it's mondo guaranteed deal time. Right now, all that's available is the incentive laden deal you describe and I don't think that's what BM wants.

He's not real smart, judgment wise. But it would be stupid to hold out in training camp. He's not such a great receiver that he's going to start in a new system with a new QB if he holds out 'til the first game. Even BM needs reps before he starts, although I'm sure he thinks he's Superman.

If someone offers a first and a third, we snap it up. He's going to be a problem eventually--this won't be our last Brandon drama. But noone's going to offer that value that until BM shows it on the field (post injury) and in his personal life.

BroncoBuff
07-06-2009, 07:28 PM
Do we know that there isn't an incentive laden deal with protection clauses on the table already that Marshall has rejected?

That's a great point ... we don't actually know what's been discussed.

He met with Pat in Pat's office, and after the Cutler mess and promising to be more involved, Pat must've offered him something. Surely his memory is not so bad that he can't remember the Pro Bowl ???

I wish we knew what was said ....

DBroncos4life
07-06-2009, 07:43 PM
Has he even been cleared to practice yet?

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 06:49 AM
Along similar lines, Mile High Report posted a very interesting article about Marshall and his stats.
It's eye opening.

Brandon Marshall reception rate: 57.1% (one notch above.........Devin Hester, yes, Devin Hester!!)
Eddie Royal reception rate: 70.5%


Over half of Eddie Royal's receptions came within 5 yards of the LOS. That certainly helps the reception rate. That wasn't the case with Marshall.

Mediator12
07-07-2009, 07:45 AM
Over half of Eddie Royal's receptions came within 5 yards of the LOS. That certainly helps the reception rate. That wasn't the case with Marshall.

As opposed to Marshall, who also had a ton of screen passes thrown his way? You do realize 2 of his 6 TD's in 181 attempts were screen's against KC right? You do realize the guy only scored on 4 teams last year at all KC, NO. SD, and CLE. All terrible secondaries and horrid Defenses.

I am sorry guys, but this guy is replaceable. Yes, he has great talent and I would want him on my team during a game. However, he has NOT played to that talent level yet despite having more balls thrown his way than any other NFL WR the last 2 years. Way too many people confuse his effectiveness with his inflated Numbers. His YAC last year was league average due to his high volume of passes. His YPA was way below average. His TD per catch was WAY below Average. 42 players in the league were simply more effective overall and 52 were more effective per pass. That is the definition of replaceable.

2KBack
07-07-2009, 07:51 AM
If things aren't right = If I haven't gotten a new contract

Just hang em up = retiring.

So what you are saying is that Wiegman said if he didn't get a new contract he would retire, which is what I have been saying.

You do realize that if he shows up and does one year without getting arrested he will go somewhere else, for nothing. How will that help the team? what is best for the team is to have Marshall out there playing or trade him.

Actually he is a RFA next season. So there is zero incentive for Denver to pay Marshall what he wants right now

Traveler
07-07-2009, 07:53 AM
Let's see:

1. Brandon's missed all of the OTA's
2. Can't verify if he's even been studying the new playbook
3. Still rehabbing from hip surgery
4. Nowhere near football shape
5. Has a court case pending that could easily get him suspended for 8 games
6. Wants to be traded

Considering all the above, you still want to pay him?

His lack of conditioning alone makes him a huge risk. Another injury waiting to happen IMO.

DenverBrit
07-07-2009, 08:24 AM
Over half of Eddie Royal's receptions came within 5 yards of the LOS. That certainly helps the reception rate. That wasn't the case with Marshall.

The average yds per catch were 10.8 for Royal and 12.2 for Marshall. Just over a yard difference.
Many of BM's 'drops' would have been deep balls into double and triple coverage.
But a lot of his yards were YAC after breaking tackles.

Not a lot of yards per catch difference, but a huge gap in completion %.

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 08:31 AM
Not a lot of yards per catch difference, but a huge gap in completion %.

Because of the routes. Period.

They obviously don't provide the stat for it, but I'll bet that for all the balls that went Marshall's way which travelled less than 5 yards in the air, the completion percentage was over 95%. For those that travelled over 10 yards in the air, the percentage was under 70%. This could be due to a number of factors.....most of which were probably outside his control.

DenverBrit
07-07-2009, 08:39 AM
Because of the routes. Period.

They obviously don't provide the stat for it, but I'll bet that for all the balls that went Marshall's way which travelled less than 5 yards in the air, the completion percentage was over 95%. For those that travelled over 10 yards in the air, the percentage was under 70%. This could be due to a number of factors.....most of which were probably outside his control.

Many of BM's 'drops' would have been deep balls into double and triple coverage.

I thought I said that. ;D

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 08:56 AM
Exactly. Just looked from the last few sentences, though, that you were then arguing the other side as well.

DenverBrit
07-07-2009, 09:03 AM
Exactly. Just looked from the last few sentences, though, that you were then arguing the other side as well.

I was trying to look at both arguments.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 09:36 AM
pay him just so we dont have to worry about losing him in the future.

azbroncfan
07-07-2009, 09:43 AM
pay him just so we dont have to worry about losing him in the future.

You think the money guarantee's he will be around? He isn't getting paid for that reason.

rastaman
07-07-2009, 10:11 AM
Yes you can.

If Marshall chooses to sit, he forfeits anoterh year of RFA. He also doesnt get paid. He also loses out on a year of football of his career.

Denver holds all teh cards here. Not Marshall. He is in no position to pout or make demands or sit out.

No, you cant FORCE him to play physically, but you can force his hand. He wont sit out and Denver shouldnt pay him a nickle on a contract without a ****LOAD of clauses. I suspect Marshall turned down an offer with such clauses.

Both Denver and Branden hold the cards or has leverage in their own right. Denver is making the right moves contractually. Denver can dangle the contract card and tag Bmarsh twice after his rookie contract is up. Brandon's cards to play is that he's young, talented, and is 6'4 230 plus and strong as an Ox. Believe me, teams will pay for the services of Bmarsh just due to the mis-matches he provides. Now Brandon needs to eliminate the emotional aspects of how he his feeling and take on a business outlook and adjust to his environment.

Brandon can out last the situation he finds himself in Denver, by getting the hip 100% healthy, staying out of trouble off the field, making the best out of playing with a mediocre journeyman QB and learning a new offensive scheme.

The combination of Orton as QB and learning a new scheme where he won't get a many passes thrown his way, BMarsh knows in 09, he won't put up the numbers he did in 07 & 08, and thus chances of returning to the Pro bowl is rather slim. But Marshall, just needs to rehab his hip, play SMART! stay healthy and survive his next two or three years he maybe forced to stay in Denver.

Playing Smart for Brandon involves no longer taking any unnecessary wear and tear on his body by allowing 2 or 3 tacklers to bring him down. Hopefully, now Bmarsh fully realizes the Broncos pay him the same whether 1 or 2, or 3 tacklers bring him down; so why not save his body, reduce further wear and tear on his operated hip, and extend his career and allow only one tackler to bring him down. Brandon will only get the big day if he stays healthy and stays out of trouble. Not to mention he needs to be surrounded by offensive talent in order for him to show case his talents.

One thing is obvious, the fun has been taken out of the game for Marshall. He has suddenly realized that not only is it stone cold business, he is also playing for an NFL Corporation that has a gladiator attitude towards its players in terms of statistical production, value as in human commodity, a career field that has short life span, but also in an environment where your career can over in one single play.

All these aforementioned items all says that a player has only one option but to think about HIMSELF AND CAREER FIRST in-terms of getting paid, landing the big contract and extending their playing career as far and as long as they can.

DenverBrit
07-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Exactly. Just looked from the last few sentences, though, that you were then arguing the other side as well.

Not to belabor the point, but someone on MHR also looked closely at the Broncos red-zone performance.
It's actually another good read and somewhat surprising. I've bolded the completion % we've been discussing.

The conclusions:

1)The Broncos averaged less than 1 Red Zone possession per quarter per game.


2)Denver averaged just over 3 Red Zone possessions per game.


3) Red Zone possessions were relatively even distributed across the quarters, though the majority were in the 2nd and the 4th quarters.


4)Red Zone scoring was best in the 1st quarter (11/11 or 100%) and worst in the 4th quarter (11/15 or 73%).


5)Run/Pass plays were relatively balanced during the 1st 3 quarters (14/16, 12/16, 16/17), but skewed in favor of passes during the 4th (18/27).


6)Completion/Targeted ratio was best in the 1st quarter (10/16 or 63%) and worst in the 3rd quarter (35%).


7)The 4th quarter was the worst for Red Zone possessions ending in turnovers (missed FG, Int, Fumble, Downs) with 4/15 (27%). The 1st quarter was the best with 0/11.

8)Marshall was the most targeted receiver in the Red Zone (22 throws to), followed by Stokley (12), Royal (11),Scheffler (10), Graham (7), Jackson (5), Bell & Hillis (3), Pope (2), Young & Russell (1).


9)All of the throws to Graham occurred in the 2nd half.


10)Royal has the highest completion percentage (73%), followed by Hillis (67%), Jackson (60%), Stokley (58%), Graham (57%), Marshall and Pope (50%), Scheffler (40%), Bell, Young & Russell (0%).

11)Sheffler never scored in the Red Zone in the 2nd half while Graham only scored in the Red Zone in the 4th quarter.

12)Not counting Prater's FG, Hillis was the leading Red Zone scorer with 6 touchdowns, followed by Marshall (5), Pittman (4), Graham (3), Cutler & Scheffler (2), Torain, Young, Jackson, Stokley, Pope & Royal (1).

I am sure there are other patterns and facts that can be gleaned from looking at Denver's play selections within the Red Zone and I look forward to seeing what other people take away from this information.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/7/5/938388/red-zone-play-by-play-what-just

Rabb
07-07-2009, 07:27 PM
You think the money guarantee's he will be around? He isn't getting paid for that reason.

that is my personal concern, I want BM to be a Bronco but I don't want the team to pay a guy who could potentially turn around and make another bonehead off the field decision and miss half of the season

isn't he on the last strike before an auto suspension?

hell I am an optimist and that **** has me worried, it is hard to bankroll a guy with one foot in the league office, any contract he gets better be rich with clauses and incentives to protect both sides or Denver is making a huge mistake

just paying him outright is risky unfortunately

Rabb
07-07-2009, 07:29 PM
10)Royal has the highest completion percentage (73%), followed by Hillis (67%), Jackson (60%), Stokley (58%), Graham (57%), Marshall and Pope (50%), Scheffler (40%), Bell, Young & Russell (0%)

good stuff!

I think though that is the case because Brandon is the #1, just so happens that last year the D had to pick their poison on who to cover with their top guy and Eddie made people pay big for it

that stat alone makes me excited to see this next year, Orton has tools he NEVER had in the NFL to work with, that is not even counting Moreno

Beantown Bronco
07-08-2009, 06:31 AM
8)Marshall was the most targeted receiver in the Red Zone (22 throws to), followed by Stokley (12), Royal (11),Scheffler (10), Graham (7), Jackson (5), Bell & Hillis (3), Pope (2), Young & Russell (1).

............I look forward to seeing what other people take away from this information.


Here's what I took away from it: no wonder Marshall doesn't have more TDs. He gets about one target per game inside the red zone. And probably half of those were fade patterns that for whatever reason Cutler is not very good at.

TonyR
07-08-2009, 07:22 AM
And probably half of those were fade patterns that for whatever reason Cutler is not very good at.

Wait, according to Champ Bailey Cutler is the next Elway or Marino. He's good at everything, don't you know? If Cutler isn't good at something it's someone or something else's fault. Probably the defense. Or the running game.

watermock
07-08-2009, 07:53 AM
Yep, BM sucks!

Too bad he made the probowl, we could of really stiffed him, and that goes for Weigman too!