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DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 10:34 AM
Why is this? Was Shanahan going to get us to the playoffs after missing the last 3? Was Slowick still going to be calling the defense and we watch us give up countless points and yards to the opposition? You cant have it both ways. It is one thing to want Shanahan to still be around but we werent improving enough and this year's schedule would have us stuck in a rut. Any improvement isnt based on what was already givin to us, but the scheme by our coach with the subtraction of bad players replaced with better players. While some of your post on others can be QFT, the above quote makes you sound like a cry baby on the whole fire shanahan saga. With your rantings of McDaniels, I would think you are going the way of Lex and rooting against our team.

What have we done so far that Shanahan did try in past years? Loaded up on RBs? Tried a new DC? Maybe it was picking up back up cast of DLine players? Oh wait its fixing the secondary!
Other then down grading our QB position its just like having Shanahan coaching our team.

worm
07-07-2009, 10:36 AM
My point is then it's fair for people to carry the same expectations as McDaniels himself... If we meet expectations he deserves all the praise in the world. If not, he deserves criticism for the moves he has made... i.e. trading away the QB, Draft pick, FA hits/misses, Branadon Marshall situation, etc. These are all things that any coach would get praised and/or criticised for and McDaniels should be no different.

I think some people here are upset that McDaniels didn't get much of a honeymoon... Well, that what happens when you make the high risk moves he has made.

This. Those are the cold facts.

McD broke a hell of a lot of glass in his first months in command. He should get the accolades for its success or suffer the rotten tomatoes for its failure.

Dramatic changes in scheme and personnel. Altering a young offense that showed major progress last year. Projected tough opponents all over the 2009 schedule....This season sure won't be boring.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 10:45 AM
My point is then it's fair for people to carry the same expectations as McDaniels himself... If we meet expectations he deserves all the praise in the world. If not, he deserves criticism for the moves he has made... i.e. trading away the QB, Draft pick, FA hits/misses, Branadon Marshall situation, etc. These are all things that any coach would get praised and/or criticised for and McDaniels should be no different.

I think some people here are upset that McDaniels didn't get much of a honeymoon... Well, that what happens when you make the high risk moves he has made.

i agree 100% he deserves criticism if he doesnt deliver, but we need to cross that bridge when/if we get there. not now when we havent even had a TC. he expects playoffs, so does every other coach in the league, but those same coaches dont get fired after their first year when they dont get there

Popps
07-07-2009, 11:25 AM
Ok... so maybe the secondary will be improved with a past-his-prime safety and a healthy Champ.

Lynch greatly improved our secondary when he was "past his prime."

We also drafted two young, promising prospects to help in the secondary and with STs.


Will Dumervil be effective at a new position? Moving players around to new positions is not universally successful... .

True, but Dumervil was absolutely out of position taking on LTs and double-teams on every single play. Size-wise, he looks much more suited to an OLB in a 3-4.


Debatable (as to whether or not he was the top DE prospect in the draft). But that point is moot if we won't be using him at DE because he's undersized, isn't it?.

He's 6'3" 275. He'll be playing a hybrid position, moving around from DE to OLB, most likely. If you look at his work in college, he was effective standing up and as a down linemen.

As for it being "debatable," anything is debatable... but the most respected draft analyst out there said he'd end up the best defensive PLAYER in this draft. Why do you feel the need to try to look for him to fail?


We also signed many absolutely useless players (Arrington? ??? Jordan? ???) who wouldn't have found work as backups anywhere else. 25 more will be cut before opening day..

Arrington was probably a mistake, but his condition wasn't thought to be as bad as it was. He wouldn't have been "useless" if he recovered properly. He would have been a major contributor on STs and as a 3rd down back.

Jordan knows the system and will absolutely be valuable to this team.

25 more will be cut? Of course. That's football, Blue. You think Shanahan didn't make cuts in training camp?


I do believe Nolan has just been "damned with faint praise".... ("might" know wtf he's doing? ???).

Nolan has a history as a DC with success, and some experience as a head coach, all of which I think will benefit this defense. Odds are VERY high that he'll be better than the trash we had in Slowick and Co.



Marshall will probably be traded... for a draft pick next year, depending on his '09 performance. Which means we'll have Royal and Gaffney (I'm totally underwhelmed by Gaffney) as starting #1 and #2... ie: downgrades from last year at QB and WR. Not all surprises are pleasant ones, Popps.

Marshall isn't a done deal yet, and while Gaffney is a #3 receiver... if you take a look at New England's success, they haven't had a big, possession receiver, as a rule. Yes, Moss has come in and been a big-play, deep-ball guy, but NE has done most of their offensive damage with receivers like Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Dion Branch, etc. How many receivers besides Moss has NE sent to the Pro Bowl?

I hope we don't lose Marshall. (From a football perspective.) But, just like with Jay... that's up to Brandon. But if we do, we're still going to have a talented group of receivers, and a group similar to the kind of corps NE used successfully for a very long time.



Blue, I know you need this not to work. I know that no matter what happens, you and the widows will be looking for failure. If we start out 8-0, you'll be here complaining. Nothing is going to change the widows minds around here.

Just don't expect all of us fans to be down in the dumps with you. Most of us are moving forward and looking for this team to be successful.

Blueflame
07-07-2009, 11:28 AM
Inherits the worst defense in the league and a middle of the pack scoring offense... why wouldn't we set the bar at the playoffs?

:rofl:


You really are precious sometimes, dude. It's almost child-like.

For me, the bar is set just a bit lower.... if the team does not go 8-8 (Shanahan was fired for an 8-8 season after all), then no excuses (like "oh, we had a tough schedule" or "oh, but he inherited the worst defense ever" or whatever; those won't fly with me at all), McDaniels is a failure as far as I'm concerned.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 11:32 AM
For me, the bar is set just a bit lower.... if the team does not go 8-8 (Shanahan was fired for an 8-8 season after all), then no excuses (like "oh, we had a tough schedule" or "oh, but he inherited the worst defense ever" or whatever; those won't fly with me at all), McDaniels is a failure as far as I'm concerned.

McD didn't inherit **** he picked Denver because it was the best open HC job on the market.

Popps
07-07-2009, 11:33 AM
Kennison didn't claim trust issues...

He claimed family issues.

His subsequent quotes regarding our coach sure don't jive with that. I posted them. Have a read.

He may have claimed family issues to snake out of his real problems, but later showed his true colors by bashing the coach in no uncertain terms.

So, since it turns out he DID have trust issues with Shanahan, I think we all need to cut him a break using your logic.

Just a good business decision... right?

Blueflame
07-07-2009, 11:45 AM
Lynch greatly improved our secondary when he was "past his prime."
Yes, Lynch did... but when he was acquired, our LB corps wasn't suspect like it is now (Al Wilson gets much of the credit for that). Dawkins can't do it all if the front 7 is a patchwork mishmash.

We also drafted two young, promising prospects to help in the secondary and with STs.

Potential value; not acknowledged value...

True, but Dumervil was absolutely out of position taking on LTs and double-teams on every single play. Size-wise, he looks much more suited to an OLB in a 3-4.[QUOTE]
Nonetheless, he has never played OLB in a 3-4... the "moving players around" experiment may succeed... or it may not.

[QUOTE]He's 6'3" 275. He'll be playing a hybrid position, moving around from DE to OLB, most likely. If you look at his work in college, he was effective standing up and as a down linemen.
It still remains to be seen whether he's a solid pickup or a draft bust...
As for it being "debatable," anything is debatable... but the most respected draft analyst out there said he'd end up the best defensive PLAYER in this draft. Why do you feel the need to try to look for him to fail?
Respected draft analysts also said that Young and Leinart were better than Cutler. Next..

Arrington was probably a mistake, but his condition wasn't thought to be as bad as it was. He wouldn't have been "useless" if he recovered properly. He would have been a major contributor on STs and as a 3rd down back.

Jordan knows the system and will absolutely be valuable to this team.
Arrington, Buckhalter, and especially Jordan are scrubs. Moreno will be taking the snaps... hopefully he stays healthy.
25 more will be cut? Of course. That's football, Blue. You think Shanahan didn't make cuts in training camp?
Of course... but I keep reading about how we're so "well-stocked" at this position or that position which is a ridiculous argument because we will not be keeping all that depth due to having to cut the roster down to 53.
Nolan has a history as a DC with success, and some experience as a head coach, all of which I think will benefit this defense. Odds are VERY high that he'll be better than the trash we had in Slowick and Co.
I wanted Slowik gone as much as anyone else. It was a gigantic blunder (IMHO) to let Coyer go... his defenses were far better than anything we've fielded since.
Marshall isn't a done deal yet, and while Gaffney is a #3 receiver... if you take a look at New England's success, they haven't had a big, possession receiver, as a rule. Yes, Moss has come in and been a big-play, deep-ball guy, but NE has done most of their offensive damage with receivers like Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Dion Branch, etc. How many receivers besides Moss has NE sent to the Pro Bowl?
I hope we don't lose Marshall. (From a football perspective.) But, just like with Jay... that's up to Brandon. But if we do, we're still going to have a talented group of receivers, and a group similar to the kind of corps NE used successfully for a very long time.
I fully expect that we're gonna lose Marshall too. For whatever reason he doesn't want to play in Denver anymore.
Blue, I know you need this not to work. I know that no matter what happens, you and the widows will be looking for failure. If we start out 8-0, you'll be here complaining. Nothing is going to change the widows minds around here.
Just don't expect all of us fans to be down in the dumps with you. Most of us are moving forward and looking for this team to be successful.

Not true, Popps. I'm prepared for a tough year though... so I won't mope or implode if we do lose games. See that's the benefit to having modest expectations... you can still be happy if your prognostication is wrong. For the optimists, there will be outbursts if their expectations aren't met. *shrug*

Blueflame
07-07-2009, 11:47 AM
McD didn't inherit **** he picked Denver because it was the best open HC job on the market.

That's exactly my stance too... NO excuses... it's 8-8 or he's failed.

NFLBRONCO
07-07-2009, 11:58 AM
That's exactly my stance too... NO excuses... it's 8-8 or he's failed.

If McD can win 8 games with Orton and a crappy front 7 this year he'll prove he's every bit a good gameday coach as Shanny.

If McD was the coach you liked instead of hated would you say the same thing 8-8 or failure in 09? Not ripping on you for your stance just asking is all.

OABB
07-07-2009, 12:02 PM
That's exactly my stance too... NO excuses... it's 8-8 or he's failed.

If we win 8 games next year, I will start chipping away at a bust of him for Canton.

NFLBRONCO
07-07-2009, 12:06 PM
McD didn't inherit **** he picked Denver because it was the best open HC job on the market.

It was the best job on the market without trade of Cutler but, since there was the trade this team needs to be rebuilt in many places. So right now I don't think this is a primo job anymore. The ability to build a team will decide this FO future we'll see what happens.

Blueflame
07-07-2009, 12:13 PM
If McD can win 8 games with Orton and a crappy front 7 this year he'll prove he's every bit a good gameday coach as Shanny.

If McD was the coach you liked instead of hated would you say the same thing 8-8 or failure in 09? Not ripping on you for your stance just asking is all.

The coach I liked (Shanahan) only dipped below 8-8 two times, in seasons with an unusually high number of injuries. Which is partly why I set "my personal bar" at 8-8.... and I don't give McDaniels a "pass" for Orton because he's reason #1 why we have Orton instead of Cutler.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 12:13 PM
It was the best job on the market without trade of Cutler but, since there was the trade this team needs to be rebuilt in many places. So right now I don't think this is a primo job anymore. The ability to build a team will decide this FO future we'll see what happens.

So going into the off-season it was the best job for a HC to land. Pretty much everyone in the media said this, then in just a short period of time McD changed that? You don't say. Its funny this team had more potential without a HC then it does with one. ;D

summerdenver
07-07-2009, 12:13 PM
The did.

It's called a "telephone."

Quitler apparently couldn't figure out how to dial or answer one.


Why did it take them a month realize that there is a, you know, 'telephone'?

As far i know, even Broncos admitted that they had a telephone conference and physical meeting with Jay. Is the message of McDaniels so complicated he needs multiple meetings to pass it on? Why should be a players only message? Is he afraid that the business associate/agent of the player will see through his agenda which is basically come and play for us for a year because we don't have any other option. While we are at it eventhough we were prepared to give 30 mil to my guy Cassel, we expect you to play for the 1+ mil you are due. Having agent will not help them because he is bound ask the tough questions.

In all the meetings, McD keeps repeating Its a business and I will do whatever is in the best interest of the team in future - translation when Cassel becomes avaialble again, I will not only stab you in the back but will also kick you to the kirb and dance all over your entails. If I were in Jay's position I would also, as you so eloquently put it, 'quit on the team'.

Look dude, Broncos/McD did not want Jay back anymore than Jay did not want Broncos. So quit preaching that Jay forced his way out. From where I stand it looks like Broncos forced him out.

NFLBRONCO
07-07-2009, 12:23 PM
So going into the off-season it was the best job for a HC to land. Pretty much everyone in the media said this, then in just a short period of time McD changed that? You don't say. Its funny this team had more potential without a HC then it does with one. ;D

I think next 2 seasons might be rough but, who knows maybe we will have a tougher smarter more consistant team that plays as a team once we bolster our talent in a few more spots. Its tough to win with a crappy DL.

NFLBRONCO
07-07-2009, 12:31 PM
The coach I liked (Shanahan) only dipped below 8-8 two times, in seasons with an unusually high number of injuries. Which is partly why I set "my personal bar" at 8-8.... and I don't give McDaniels a "pass" for Orton because he's reason #1 why we have Orton instead of Cutler.

Fair enough Thanks for reply.

I just see bad front 7 and a new system is tougher to expect smooth sailing vs standards of 8-8 seasons from past regime that had a few years running system. Its not mean't as excuse just reality. Matt C. had 2 yrs on the bench learning system before he started last year.

Even with Jay I would think 8 wins would be tough this year he might have struggled in new O this season.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 12:38 PM
I think next 2 seasons might be rough but, who knows maybe we will have a tougher smarter more consistant team that plays as a team once we bolster our talent in a few more spots. Its tough to win with a crappy DL.

I'm hoping for the best but I agree the potential is there for this to be a rough few years. I too am one of those posters that think 8-8 or better should be the target for McD to get heat taken off of his back and like the other posters I understand that McD is the one putting the bulls-eye on his back. Change is fine there is nothing wrong with it. Popps and posters like him keep saying we are afraid of change but that's not the case. We worry that McD's changes might not be the best for the team in the long run.

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 12:43 PM
Ummmmmm, he has a way back in...its called honoring the contract he signed and playing for another one....and "reportedly" he was offerred a new contract by Bowlen which he found to be too low...
I neversaw that "report," but you've made a good point. Pat must've offered something, he must be still a bit shell-shocked over the Jay thing. I'm sure he desperately wanted to avoid another lengthy drama. I just wish we knew what the offer was ???


I'm not sure what more our HC is supposed to do in order to get this issue resolved ... I really want to know what McD of all people is supposed to do or say.
That's the problem ... it shouldn't be his job to "resolve the issue." He should be down on the field teaching his offense, nothing more.

vancejohnson82
07-07-2009, 12:50 PM
I neversaw that "report," but you've made a good point. Pat must've offered something, he must be still a bit shell-shocked over the Jay thing. I'm sure he desperately wanted to avoid another lengthy drama. I just wish we knew what the offer was ???


I'm not sure what more our HC is supposed to do in order to get this issue resolved ... I really want to know what McD of all people is supposed to do or say.
That's the problem ... it shouldn't be his job to "resolve the issue." He should be down on the field teaching his offense, nothing more.[/QUOTE]


Pat offerred him SOMETHING or there would have been no reason for Marshall to come in that day that he packed all of his stuff. According to PFT:

Schefter: Brandon Marshall Asked To Be Traded
Posted by Mike Florio on June 15, 2009 2:56 PM
Adam Schefter, who technically still works for NFL Network but who soon will be jumping to ESPN, continues to keep his finger on the pulse of the NFL.

Or, as the case may be, against its prostate gland.

In a Monday morning segment with 850 KOA in Denver, Schefter said that Marshall asked owner Pat Bowlen to be traded during their Friday meeting.

Per Schefter, Marshall told Bowlen, "I think I'd like to be traded." Schefter said that Bowlen asked Marshall to take some time to consider whether he wants a new contract or a trade, and that Marshall is expected to stick to his guns.

Schefter also said that there are other teams in the league (the Bears?) that are ready make a play for Marshall.


basically that reads that Marshall came in with an agenda and then Pat responded by asking if a new contract was an option.....but again, its all hearsay

summerdenver
07-07-2009, 12:58 PM
Ummmmmm, he has a way back in...its called honoring the contract he signed and playing for another one....and "reportedly" he was offerred a new contract by Bowlen which he found to be too low...what other negotiation tactics would you suggest Buff?


I don't know Vance - Garry Miller said on Am 105.3, that Bowlen told Marshall to play this year under the contract and if he has a good year and does not have any off field problems Broncos will consider a new contract at the end of the year. I do not know how reliable Gary Miller is though - this is just what I heard.

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 01:02 PM
I don't know Vance - Garry Miller said on Am 105.3, that Bowlen told Marshall to play this year under the contract and if he has a good year and does not have any off field problems Broncos will consider a new contract at the end of the year.

Hilarious. If you play out the LAST YEAR of your contract, perform well and stay out of trouble, we'll CONSIDER giving you a new contract.

Is this supposed to be a favor to Marshall? Unreal.

Br0nc0Buster
07-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Hilarious. If you play out the LAST YEAR of your contract, perform well and stay out of trouble, we'll CONSIDER giving you a new contract.

Is this supposed to be a favor to Marshall? Unreal.

Marshall has used up all his favors, he really isnt in a position to demand anything

2KBack
07-07-2009, 01:09 PM
Hilarious. If you play out the LAST YEAR of your contract, perform well and stay out of trouble, we'll CONSIDER giving you a new contract.

Is this supposed to be a favor to Marshall? Unreal.

Doesn't marshall have 2 years left on the contract? I think he's a RFA next season

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 01:09 PM
Marshall has used up all his favors, he really isnt in a position to demand anything

So you don't see the humor in someone telling him, "we'll consider giving you a new contract after your current one expires" like they're doing him a favor?

Beantown Bronco
07-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Doesn't marshall have 2 years left on the contract? I think he's a RFA next season

RFA isn't really a contract year....hence the last two letters which stand for "free agent." It's sort of like a "team option" year in baseball that isn't part of a base contract. The team can choose to exercise it or not based off of a number of factors.

And this is all dependent of course on how the negotiations go between the owners and the players.

2KBack
07-07-2009, 01:12 PM
nevermind, he is going into his final year. Yeah it makes no sense to promise a contract AFTER this season

vancejohnson82
07-07-2009, 01:15 PM
RFA isn't really a contract year....hence the last two letters which stand for "free agent." It's sort of like a "team option" year in baseball that isn't part of a base contract. The team can choose to exercise it or not based off of a number of factors.

And this is all dependent of course on how the negotiations go between the owners and the players.

I agree with the ridiculousness of asking someone to play out the last year and THEN you will THINK about awarding them with a new contract.....

Which is why I don't believe that....I think Marshall went in there and asked to be traded...when it came time and Pat said, "well what about a new contract" Marshall probably named some absurd number putting him in the top 3 WRs in the leauge and then it was "see ya at camp kid"

then he packed his little Tonka trucks up and left the sandbox

Br0nc0Buster
07-07-2009, 01:21 PM
So you don't see the humor in someone telling him, "we'll consider giving you a new contract after your current one expires" like they're doing him a favor?

Well the report I saw the exact words were Pat "promised" a new contract if he stayed clean.

and it would be a favor if he wanted to play for the Broncos

but I dont think Pat wanted this to happen, Im sure he would of liked to have gotten him an extension this offseason, his off field problems just have prolonged that

Br0nc0Buster
07-07-2009, 01:23 PM
I agree with the ridiculousness of asking someone to play out the last year and THEN you will THINK about awarding them with a new contract.....

Which is why I don't believe that....I think Marshall went in there and asked to be traded...when it came time and Pat said, "well what about a new contract" Marshall probably named some absurd number putting him in the top 3 WRs in the leauge and then it was "see ya at camp kid"

then he packed his little Tonka trucks up and left the sandbox

this is pretty much what happened from the reports I read

Popps
07-07-2009, 02:35 PM
Which is why I don't believe that....I think Marshall went in there and asked to be traded...when it came time and Pat said, "well what about a new contract"

I can't see any way that would be possible.

First off, unless Marshall is a great actor, he really sounded like he was buying in. Why would Marshall bust in and demand a trade, when a few days earlier... he wasn't even sure if he'd be able to play this year? (Or how much)

Are you saying he demanded a trade because of the injury/doctor situation? I can't rule that out, but that sure smells like contract smoke-screen stuff, to me.

I think Brandon realized he was free and clear to play... knows he's one ****-up from being poor and broke, and figured he'd better demand a huge payday before he ****s up again.

I'm not even saying I blame him for doing it. He's got a hip situation, and is a major suspension risk. Why not try to grab all the money you can right now?

That said, I don't blame the organization for telling him to sit on his ass, either. No way should they be held at gunpoint to pay a guy that's ****ed up as royally as he has.

Head-case WRs aren't anything new. Marshall is just the latest, and there's a pretty clear template out there on how NOT to deal with these guys. If Brandon follows suit, he WILL be in trouble again, and the team that pays him IS going to be on the hook if they don't protect themselves.


As with Cutler... as is almost always in life, I believe this simply has to do more with money than any other reason being bandied about. Brandon wants a bunch, and the team understandably doesn't want to give it to him just yet.

TheReverend
07-07-2009, 03:08 PM
I have a feeling this post is completely tongue-in-cheek, but I'll agree with it anyway....

we downgraded at QB, true

we upgraded at Defensive Coordinator
we upgraded at Running Back (even "scrubs" like Lamont Jordan and Buckhalter are nice to have when other guys go down)
we upgraded in the secondary

I'm going to add two more that arent as concrete

we upgraded at defensive pressure because ANYTHING we do schematically will be better than last year
we upgraded in oru playcalling on offense...in my opinion, and I never wanted him gone, Shanahan did become predictable and would therefore try and outhink himself which led to a lot of our 3 and outs last year....we would be running the ball down teh oppositions throat and he would try and switch it up with 3 deep passes in order to show his genius and we'd punt...just an opinion


I dont know why the playoffs, or seeing this team improve this year is out of the questions....my biggest worry and its a HUGE one, is switching to the 3-4...it can be a painful process

FYI, we were the 2nd best team in the league as far as third down conversion goes. Might wanna rethink that part of your post...

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 03:48 PM
I can't see any way that would be possible.

First off, unless Marshall is a great actor, he really sounded like he was buying in. Why would Marshall bust in and demand a trade, when a few days earlier... he wasn't even sure if he'd be able to play this year? (Or how much)

Are you saying he demanded a trade because of the injury/doctor situation? I can't rule that out, but that sure smells like contract smoke-screen stuff, to me.

I think Brandon realized he was free and clear to play... knows he's one ****-up from being poor and broke, and figured he'd better demand a huge payday before he ****s up again.

I'm not even saying I blame him for doing it. He's got a hip situation, and is a major suspension risk. Why not try to grab all the money you can right now?

That said, I don't blame the organization for telling him to sit on his ass, either. No way should they be held at gunpoint to pay a guy that's ****ed up as royally as he has.

Head-case WRs aren't anything new. Marshall is just the latest, and there's a pretty clear template out there on how NOT to deal with these guys. If Brandon follows suit, he WILL be in trouble again, and the team that pays him IS going to be on the hook if they don't protect themselves.


As with Cutler... as is almost always in life, I believe this simply has to do more with money than any other reason being bandied about. Brandon wants a bunch, and the team understandably doesn't want to give it to him just yet.
Yep its clear by all the off-field offers for ads FOR MONEY that he is turning down and his constant complaining about not getting a new contract. Keep it up popps people might still buy what you are trying to sale.

Popps
07-07-2009, 04:45 PM
Yep its clear by all the off-field offers for ads FOR MONEY that he is turning down and his constant complaining about not getting a new contract. Keep it up popps people might still buy what you are trying to sale.

Dude, I don't give a f#ck if people buy in or not. I'm not asking for your permission to have my opinion, junior.

Quitler brought his daddy-agent to what was supposed to be an air-clearing player/coach meeting. If you want to believe that had nothing to do with his contract status, you go right ahead and do that.

I suppose the other option is that he really IS that big of a coward, which I can't completely rule out. By thinking this was partly financial, I'm actually cutting your girl a little slack.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 04:48 PM
Dude, I don't give a f#ck if people buy in or not. I'm not asking for your permission to have my opinion, junior.

Quitler brought his daddy-agent to what was supposed to be an air-clearing player/coach meeting. If you want to believe that had nothing to do with his contract status, you go right ahead and do that.

I suppose the other option is that he really IS that big of a coward, which I can't completely rule out. By thinking this was partly financial, I'm actually cutting your girl a little slack.

mcdaniels asked to speak to cutler multiple times without his agent present and cutler refused, im not sure what mcdaniels is supposed to do about taht either...

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 04:52 PM
If you want to believe that had nothing to do with his contract status, you go right ahead and do that.
Oh brother ... :oyvey:

That issue has been settled for so long ... money was simply not a factor. tsiguy even knows that. Are you even reading what people are saying to you in this thread? Maybe ratchet back a notch on that hating there ... reality can be your friend of you choose to embrace it.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 04:56 PM
Oh brother ... :oyvey:

That issue has been settled for so long ... money was simply not a factor. tsiguy even knows that. Are you even reading what people are saying to you in this thread? Maybe ratchet back a notch on that hating there ... reality can be your friend of you choose to embrace it.

i dont think money was a factor, his feelings apparently overshadow everything else involved in the NFL though, which is sad. with mcdaniels skill at working QBs and developing offenses that take advantage of their skillsets, cutler could have been MVP and gone places. now hes stuck in chicago, with forte leading the offense and no one to protect or throw to, its sad he did it to himself.

however he did require bus cook attend all over the phone or other meetings which is strange

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 04:57 PM
Dude, I don't give a f#ck if people buy in or not. I'm not asking for your permission to have my opinion, junior.
Something must be wrong in your life ... it's the only possible explanation for this kind of angry, resentful venom. Please understand Popps ... nobody would even dream of telling you not to have an opinion. But when enough people disagree with you, or when new information comes to light, the reasonable and prudent thing to do is re-examine that opinion, not insult the messenger.

It's not your opinions themselves we're arguing with ... it's your stubborn refusal to re-examine your opinions that's causing you so much blowback.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 05:14 PM
Dude, I don't give a f#ck if people buy in or not. I'm not asking for your permission to have my opinion, junior.

Quitler brought his daddy-agent to what was supposed to be an air-clearing player/coach meeting. If you want to believe that had nothing to do with his contract status, you go right ahead and do that.

I suppose the other option is that he really IS that big of a coward, which I can't completely rule out. By thinking this was partly financial, I'm actually cutting your girl a little slack.

You do know what people pay agents for right?

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 05:15 PM
mcdaniels asked to speak to cutler multiple times without his agent present and cutler refused, im not sure what mcdaniels is supposed to do about taht either...
That sounds right, but didn't Jay speak to Josh informally at least once before that? Didn't he say that Josh "lied to him"? Jay was obviously a crybaby there, but you gotta figure Josh put up a stubborn, authoritative wall when Jay spoke to him, that's my guess anyway. So Jay bristled at this power play and escalated the problem to include his agent.

One thing I was struck by, I really honestly think Bus Cook had no idea wtf Jay was doing. In Cook's first couple interviews I got the distinct impression that he hadn't really been consulted, was confused about Jay's actions, wasn't in the loop.

Besides, these two explanations are really at odds with one another ... either:

a) Jay had a tantrum and pouted his way outta town,
. . . . . . OR
b) Jay and Bus cooked up a greedy scheme.

Those two causes don't mesh, they don't go together. I think a) is the real answer.

summerdenver
07-07-2009, 05:21 PM
mcdaniels asked to speak to cutler multiple times without his agent present and cutler refused, im not sure what mcdaniels is supposed to do about taht either...

I never understood why does McDaniels/Broncos insisted that agent should not be present.

As far as I know Arizona did not make similar demands with Boldin, Carilina did not make similar demands with Peppers, i do not believe Pats insisted on this while dealing with Asanthe Samuel or Deon Branch or Vinitari.

Unlike those teams Broncos insisted that this is a business meaning they do not care for any loyalties. Well when its a business why should the player not bring his business associate with him? He was not going to discuss anything confidential like the game plans in the meeting. It was a meeting about the future of cutler with the team so why were they insisting on not having agent in the meeting?

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 05:28 PM
I never understood why does McDaniels/Broncos insisted that agent should not be present.

As far as I know Arizona did not make similar demands with Boldin, Carilina did not make similar demands with Peppers, i do not believe Pats insisted on this while dealing with Asanthe Samuel or Deon Branch or Vinitari.

Unlike those teams Broncos insisted that this is a business meaning they do not care for any loyalties. Well when its a business why should the player not bring his business associate with him? He was not going to discuss anything confidential like the game plans in the meeting. It was a meeting about the future of cutler with the team so why were they insisting on not having agent in the meeting?

To me its like the cops asking you to talk without a lawyer. I doubt Bus Cook is well liked and I imagine the team thought it was him pushing Jay away from the Broncos. I'm sure they felt that if they could just get Jay there without Bus then they would have a better chance at keeping him. In all reality though McD should have just been happy with working with Jay in the first place and not tried to make a move for his old QB in Cassel. Hell he could have even taken a coaching job elsewhere like the Lions and traded for Cassel and still had the number one pick in the draft to get the best OT in that to protect him. Hell you give any QB time to throw to Calvin Johnson and good things will happen.

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:29 PM
I never understood why does McDaniels/Broncos insisted that agent should not be present.


They didn't insist anything.

Quitler claimed that he had an emotional owie so the team arranged for the player/coach to meet and air it out.

Cutler shows up with his ****ing da-da to the meeting.

Gosh, I wonder why.

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:30 PM
To me its like the cops asking you to talk without a lawyer. I doubt Bus Cook is well liked.

So, Cutler figured that was the best way to patch things up with a coach? Bring a dickhead with you with a rep for screwing things up?

24champ
07-07-2009, 05:33 PM
Dude, I don't give a f#ck if people buy in or not. I'm not asking for your permission to have my opinion, junior.



Huzzah!!!
http://poplicks.com/images/angry-mccain.jpg

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 05:40 PM
So, Cutler figured that was the best way to patch things up with a coach? Bring a dickhead with you with a rep for screwing things up?

That's what he pays him to do popps. Bus is his agent. I'm not going to say I like Bus cause I don't, but from Jay's point of view he did get him traded to his favorite team growing up as a child so I don't see how the deal sucked for Jay.

If you have a lawyer for whatever reason lets call it a child custody case. Your former wife and her lawyer want to meet with just you are you not going to bring the person you have defending you or representing you with you because they don't like him? Not going to happen.

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:40 PM
Huzzah!!!


Dude, did you consult the popularity ratings of the Broncos today before making that post? God forbid anyone caught you being a fan of an unpopular team.

How is our popularity today, say... as compared to yesterday?

What's the popularity threshold at which you'll remain a fan? Is there like some sort of jersey-ratio at the sports bar where you just don't feel comfortable?

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:41 PM
That's what he pays him to do popps. Bus is his agent.

He pays him to attend player/coach meetings where the team had no intention of having financial people present?

What's next, Bus in the film room?

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 05:42 PM
Dude, did you consult the popularity ratings of the Broncos today before making that post? God forbid anyone caught you being a fan of an unpopular team.
C'mon Popps, 24 is just as good a fan as any of us.

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:42 PM
Bus is his agent. I'm not going to say I like Bus cause I don't, but from Jay's point of view he did get him traded to his favorite team growing up as a child so I don't see how the deal sucked for Jay.


Who said the deal sucked for Jay? He cried and got traded. Bus didn't dictate where he was traded... the best offer did. You think the Broncos gave a **** where Cutler wanted to play?

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 05:48 PM
He pays him to attend player/coach meetings where the team had no intention of having financial people present?

What's next, Bus in the film room?

My experience as an attorney has provided me with many valuable
skills that the average agent does not have:

I understand the importance of representing my clients. I take my
representation of my clients seriously as their futures and
livelihoods often rest with me.

I understand the art of advocacy. The daily practice of law is
synonymous with being an advocate for a client.

I am very experienced in dealing with contracts and negotiations.
Being an effective negotiator is part of the daily practice of law.

I have also developed great people skills. I have learned to be a
great communicator and routinely talk to my clients regarding any
subject.

I am governed by a strict Code of Ethics which sets standards by
which all attorneys must practice when representing clients. The
ethical rules Attorneys must follow surpass those in any other
profession.

That is what his agent was there for.

24champ
07-07-2009, 05:48 PM
Dude, did you consult the popularity ratings of the Broncos today before making that post? God forbid anyone caught you being a fan of an unpopular team.

How is our popularity today, say... as compared to yesterday?

What's the popularity threshold at which you'll remain a fan? Is there like some sort of jersey-ratio at the sports bar where you just don't feel comfortable?

Grumpy old popps. Have some prune juice and calm down. ROFL!


http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/old_guys_6.gif

Popps
07-07-2009, 05:59 PM
Grumpy old popps. Have some prune juice and calm down. ROFL!


http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/old_guys_6.gif

Dude, 40 is the new 30. Haven't you heard? I'm not old. :sunshine:

You cheer up, pouty. Open up your mind to the possibility that there may be good things in store for your franchise.

broncofan7
07-07-2009, 06:06 PM
McD should have never even broached the subject of trading Jay Cutler. But he did, and his head coaching career will span all of 2 seasons largely because of it.
Popps was right (along with me) in that it was time to part ways with Shanny, where he and I diverge is Popps thinks that trading a franchise QB was a good idea--and only after we go 5-11 next year will he and others of his ilk come around to the fact that players win games no matter how 'excellent' the coaching maybe. Did Cutler seem whiny in his post game press conferences, especially after losses? You bet he did. This season, we will all be wishing that our QB was substandard only when dealing with the media.............

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 06:13 PM
McD should have never even broached the subject of trading Jay Cutler. But he did, and his head coaching career will span all of 2 seasons largely because of it.
Popps was right (along with me) in that it was time to part ways with Shanny, where he and I diverge is Popps thinks that trading a franchise QB was a good idea--and only after we go 5-11 next year will he and others of his ilk come around to the fact that players win games no matter how 'excellent' the coaching maybe. Did Cutler seem whiny in his post game press conferences, especially after losses? You bet he did. This season, we will all be wishing that our QB was substandard only when dealing with the media.............

people like you disgust me because you see absolutely nothing positive this summer on the team, you think its all the broncos fault that cutler is not here and refuse to accept the fact that cutler could have came in and did his job like every other big name player that ever gets mentioned in trade talks and not let his feelings affect his job. you will not accept that cutler had any responsibility when he could have simply came in and did his job.

you also refuse to accept that mcd may actually have a good year, and you dont seem to realize that you do not need jay cutler to win games. you basically gaurantee mcdaniels is gone after 2 years, what if he wins? you gonna be back on the bandwagon then?

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 06:19 PM
people like you disgust me because you see absolutely nothing positive this summer on the team, you think its all the broncos fault that cutler is not here and refuse to accept the fact that cutler could have came in and did his job like every other big name player that ever gets mentioned in trade talks and not let his feelings affect his job. you will not accept that cutler had any responsibility when he could have simply came in and did his job.

you also refuse to accept that mcd may actually have a good year, and you dont seem to realize that you do not need jay cutler to win games. you basically gaurantee mcdaniels is gone after 2 years, what if he wins? you gonna be back on the bandwagon then?

You and the real fan ****. Your opinion around here is about as valuable as a condom with a bunch of holes in it.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 06:20 PM
[/B]
You and the real fan ****. Your opinion around here is about as valuable as a condom with a bunch of holes in it.

as opposed to being a fan who refuses to accept that the team just may not suck because a single player isnt on it anymore? be ready to hop back on the bandwagon, well be here.

broncofan7
07-07-2009, 06:24 PM
people like you disgust me because you see absolutely nothing positive this summer on the team, you think its all the broncos fault that cutler is not here and refuse to accept the fact that cutler could have came in and did his job like every other big name player that ever gets mentioned in trade talks and not let his feelings affect his job. you will not accept that cutler had any responsibility when he could have simply came in and did his job.

you also refuse to accept that mcd may actually have a good year, and you dont seem to realize that you do not need jay cutler to win games. you basically gaurantee mcdaniels is gone after 2 years, what if he wins? you gonna be back on the bandwagon then?

I am not on any 'bandwagon'--much as the Shanny supporters lambasted me as not being a 'true fan' because I felt it was time for him to go---the trading of Jay Cutler was a monumental mistake that will NOT be overcome by some 33 year old with no previous head coaching experience who happened to have the luxury of one of the NFL's top 2 QB's and WR's at his disposal.Even when Brady went down he was coordinating an immense amoutn of talent last year--without having to have the unit score 28 points/game to stay competitive. In truth, I like what he has done defensively with the hiring of Nolan and drafting/signing of Ayers, Dawkins, Andra Davis and Hill--but he subtracted more in trading Cutler than he added with all of those signings combined. Some of us can be objective and realize that coaching reputations are built on the backs of hall of fame players (how did the marriage of BB and vinny T in CLE work out for him vs BB and Brady?) and although Vutler certainly had a LONGGGGGG road to hoe, Orton and Simms don't even know where the road to the HOF begins.........and Mcd will learn that his arrogance will be rewarded with a Wade Phillips- like following from Bronco fans before this season is out.......

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 06:25 PM
as opposed to being a fan who refuses to accept that the team just may not suck because a single player isnt on it anymore? be ready to hop back on the bandwagon, well be here.

That's funny. After the trade went down, I was pretty pissed but even now I say the only way we can make it to .500 or better this year is with a guy named Marshall, so I guess you're right I am thinking the team could suck because of one player missing.

Popps
07-07-2009, 06:28 PM
[/B]
You and the real fan ****. Your opinion around here is about as valuable as a condom with a bunch of holes in it.

He's got a point, though. You and your gals in the widow club (basically about 10 people) spend all day and night bashing the organization on the board. Now we've got people trashing Champ Bailey to stick up for Quitler.

At what point do these posts belong on a Raiders board or a Chiefs board?

A pretty simple rule of thumb is probably this... if your posts line up directly with Boob's, you deserve to be called out by Broncos fans for it.

Lately, I've seen more Broncos fans trashing this team than I have Raiders/Chiefs fans.

These are angry, jilted people who just can't move on.

Someone starts a thread about one of our rookies and in come the Widow's Club to trash anything Bronco-related. It's just bizarre.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 06:36 PM
He's got a point, though. You and your gals in the widow club (basically about 10 people) spend all day and night bashing the organization on the board. Now we've got people trashing Champ Bailey to stick up for Quitler.

At what point do these posts belong on a Raiders board or a Chiefs board?

A pretty simple rule of thumb is probably this... if your posts line up directly with Boob's, you deserve to be called out by Broncos fans for it.

Lately, I've seen more Broncos fans trashing this team than I have Raiders/Chiefs fans.

These are angry, jilted people who just can't move on.

Someone starts a thread about one of our rookies and in come the Widow's Club to trash anything Bronco-related. It's just bizarre.

This coming from a guy that said we owe Kennison a apology for treating him so bad when it so clear that the only reason he quit the team right before a game was because he felt hurt by the coach. Only after he bashes Cutler for doing the samething.

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 06:41 PM
as opposed to being a fan who refuses to accept that the team just may not suck because a single player isnt on it anymore?
The point you keep missing is that while even though many of us hate that Jay left, that DOESN'T mean we think the team will suck!

You gotta de-link those two clauses ... 'A' does not equal 'B' ... and you accusing 'A' people of thinking 'B' gets insulting after awhile.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 06:52 PM
I am not on any 'bandwagon'--much as the Shanny supporters lambasted me as not being a 'true fan' because I felt it was time for him to go---the trading of Jay Cutler was a monumental mistake that will NOT be overcome by some 33 year old with no previous head coaching experience who happened to have the luxury of one of the NFL's top 2 QB's and WR's at his disposal.Even when Brady went down he was coordinating an immense amoutn of talent last year--without having to have the unit score 28 points/game to stay competitive. In truth, I like what he has done defensively with the hiring of Nolan and drafting/signing of Ayers, Dawkins, Andra Davis and Hill--but he subtracted more in trading Cutler than he added with all of those signings combined. Some of us can be objective and realize that coaching reputations are built on the backs of hall of fame players (how did the marriage of BB and vinny T in CLE work out for him vs BB and Brady?) and although Vutler certainly had a LONGGGGGG road to hoe, Orton and Simms don't even know where the road to the HOF begins.........and Mcd will learn that his arrogance will be rewarded with a Wade Phillips- like following from Bronco fans before this season is out.......

you are delusional on what jay cutler meant and did for this team, as well as how talented and how great of a leader he actually is. and you forget the key idea here: jay cutler CHOSE not to be a denver bronco, he refused to talk to anyone at denver HQ until he was traded. he did not even respond to pat bowlen, how do you justify that under any circumstances?

its not a coincidence so many players in the NFL hate him and so many coaches and people around the NFL have questioned his maturity, he didnt just get that reputation out of nowhere, he earned it, and his crybaby attitude after he heard his name was talked about in trade talks just proves it.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 06:52 PM
The point you keep missing is that while even though many of us hate that Jay left, that DOESN'T mean we think the team will suck!

You gotta de-link those two clauses ... 'A' does not equal 'B' ... and you accusing 'A' people of thinking 'B' gets insulting after awhile.

go read his post, he just said the team will go 5-11, everyone will turn on mcd and the season is already over before we even got to TC

broncofan7
07-07-2009, 06:59 PM
you are delusional on what jay cutler meant and did for this team, as well as how talented and how great of a leader he actually is. and you forget the key idea here: jay cutler CHOSE not to be a denver bronco, he refused to talk to anyone at denver HQ until he was traded. he did not even respond to pat bowlen, how do you justify that under any circumstances?

its not a coincidence so many players in the NFL hate him and so many coaches and people around the NFL have questioned his maturity, he didnt just get that reputation out of nowhere, he earned it, and his crybaby attitude after he heard his name was talked about in trade talks just proves it.

When Jay makes the playoffs this year and we don't---all of that 'he may be immature' talk will go the way of the dodo.........Personally, I hope Jay tears his MCL, ACL and PCL all while slipping in the men's room while wiping his a$$--but being that the likelihood of that happening is almost less than zero--I have come to the realization that our #1 pick next year is more than likely to be in the early to mid 20's than the top 10........which is where SEA will be picking next year--but that topic has been addressed in other threads already.........McD is not an idiot savant........some of us are gifted with an uncanny ability to be objective--others choose to think that 4500 yard, 25 TD throwing Qb's in their 2nd full season as a starter in the NFL are not to be treasured comodoties........only time will tell and I hope I am wrong. But besides the Eddie Royal pick(I wanted DeSean), I seldom have strong opinions that turn out to be incorrect.

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 07:00 PM
go read his post, he just said the team will go 5-11, everyone will turn on mcd and the season is already over before we even got to TC

Okay ... well in his case you might be right. But that 'A' = 'B' nonsense is the main source of the angry division around here.

Just because you question or even criticize team moves, does NOT mean you hope the team does poorly ... not by a LONG shot.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 07:01 PM
Okay ... well in his case you might be right. But that 'A' = 'B' nonsense is the main source of the angry division around here. Just because you question or even criticize team moves, does NOT mean you hope the team does poorly ... not by a LONGshot.

i agree completely, and the only people i bitch at are not those that criticize the moves, but those who predict failure BECAUSE of the moves, given that no one has seen anything on the field yet they have no reason to cry that we are gonna fail miserably.

that, and those that say mcd is the reason jay cutler is not here. cutler is not here because he chose not to be here, mcd went on public tv stating he is our QB and he wont be traded, but cutler wouldnt listen and thus he had to be traded per bowlens request.

tsiguy96
07-07-2009, 07:03 PM
When Jay makes the playoffs this year and we don't---all of that 'he may be immature' talk will go the way of the dodo.........Personally, I hope Jay tears his MCL, ACL and PCL all while slipping in the men's room while wiping his a$$--but being that the likelihood of that happening is almost less than zero--I have come to the realization that our #1 pick next year is more than likely to be in the early to mid 20's than the top 10........which is where SEA will be picking next year--but that topic has been addressed in other threads already.........McD is not an idiot savant........some of us are gifted with an uncanny ability to be objective--others choose to think that 4500 yard, 25 TD throwing Qb's in their 2nd full season as a starter in the NFL are not to be treasured comodoties........only time will tell and I hope I am wrong. But besides the Eddie Royal pick(I wanted DeSean), I seldom have strong opinions that turn out to be incorrect.

there you go predicting failure again. the same QB that you call ****ty and mediocre (orton) was having a pro bowl year and by every bears fan account is not bad at all, led his team to a winning record in his 2 seasons as a starter (something cutler has never done, college or nfl) and is now in a very QB friendly system that is designed with great WR in mind.

SoCalBronco
07-07-2009, 07:26 PM
[/B]
You and the real fan ****. Your opinion around here is about as valuable as a condom with a bunch of holes in it.

This post reminds me of the time when Taco said that getting rep from Hogan is about as likely as finding a condom in Bob's wallet. Clockwork Orange responded that you'd probably find a condom in Bob's wallet, but its likely been there so long that tearing open the packet that contained it would be like opening a packet of sugar.

;D

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 08:45 PM
This post reminds me of the time when Taco said that getting rep from Hogan is about as likely as finding a condom in Bob's wallet. Clockwork Orange responded that you'd probably find a condom in Bob's wallet, but its likely been there so long that tearing open the packet that contained it would be like opening a packet of sugar.

;D

awesome lol Hilarious!

Popps
07-07-2009, 09:18 PM
This coming from a guy that said we owe Kennison a apology for treating him so bad when it so clear that the only reason he quit the team right before a game was because he felt hurt by the coach. Only after he bashes Cutler for doing the samething.

You know it was partially sarcasm. I said as much.

They were different situations, but not completely. Kennison didn't like/trust the staff, and made no secret about that after it was all over. Those are the same reasons being given for Quitler's departure as if it's just a big happy scenario.

The primary difference is that Quitler played at a higher level. If he was a C-level QB pulling that routine, this board would be burning him at the stake.

DBroncos4life
07-07-2009, 09:41 PM
You know it was partially sarcasm. I said as much.

They were different situations, but not completely. Kennison didn't like/trust the staff, and made no secret about that after it was all over. Those are the same reasons being given for Quitler's departure as if it's just a big happy scenario.

The primary difference is that Quitler played at a higher level. If he was a C-level QB pulling that routine, this board would be burning him at the stake.

Of course. One was a third string guy need that we needed to step up big time because our two starters got hurt. He quit during the week. Leaving us with no time to find someone to take his spot with the proper know how. The other was a Pro Bowl player coming off his first NFL season with type one diabetes under control.
Even if you believe Cutler "quit" because his feelings got hurt the team still had the rest of FA period, the draft and pretty much whatever time was left during the offseason to find a replacement there is a huge difference there.

BroncoBuff
07-07-2009, 09:43 PM
Now we've got people trashing Champ Bailey to stick up for Quitler.Nobody's "trashing" Champ Bailey numnutz.

Champ himself compared Jay Cutler to Dan Marino and John-freaking-Elway.

None of us said that .... Champ said that. And it's an enormous compliment.

Taco John
07-07-2009, 09:52 PM
His subsequent quotes regarding our coach sure don't jive with that. I posted them. Have a read.

He may have claimed family issues to snake out of his real problems, but later showed his true colors by bashing the coach in no uncertain terms.

So, since it turns out he DID have trust issues with Shanahan, I think we all need to cut him a break using your logic.

Just a good business decision... right?



Is there a particular reason that you're so desperate to change history where Eddie Kennison is concerned? I'm pretty sure that you're not doing it to provide intentional comedy for us, though it is good for a laugh.

Popps
07-07-2009, 10:09 PM
Is there a particular reason that you're so desperate to change history where Eddie Kennison is concerned? I'm pretty sure that you're not doing it to provide intentional comedy for us, though it is good for a laugh.

No history change needed. Eddie was a putz... a putz who had "trust issues" with the staff.

He made it abundantly clear via his direct comments TO the media. In fact, he's been more direct with his ire towards Shanahan than we've heard from Cutler.

Apparently, if a player has "trust issues" with a coaching staff, he's automatically entitled to act like a complete douche-bag. So, I simply asked why Quiterson was demonized and Quitler gets hero's sendoff from a few around here.

summerdenver
07-07-2009, 10:53 PM
They didn't insist anything.

Quitler claimed that he had an emotional owie so the team arranged for the player/coach to meet and air it out.

Cutler shows up with his ****ing da-da to the meeting.

Gosh, I wonder why.

Huh? Matter of semantics. So why are they asking that Cutler meet them without his agent when they said it is all business afterall?

DarkHorse30
07-07-2009, 11:04 PM
McD should have never even broached the subject of trading Jay Cutler. But he did, and his head coaching career will span all of 2 seasons largely because of it.
Cutler doesn't have enough cred to back up his hissy fit. He choked away his best chance at a playoff, and had NOTHING left in December last year. So who's fault is that? Didn't Shanahan get more out of Plummer and Griese than anybody else did? So if Shanahan can't turn Cutler into a player, what chance does Chicago's OC have? They barely have had an offense since Turner took over......so he's going to teach Cutler how to be a player?

If Ron Turner gets more out of Cutler than Mike Shanahan, than that's too bad on Mike.....and nothing on McDaniel. There's no way you pin Cutler's idiocy in leaving Denver on anybody but himself. It wouldn't suprise me if he wasn't smart enough to run either Shanahan's system or anything McDaniels is putting together.
Popps was right (along with me) in that it was time to part ways with Shanny, where he and I diverge is Popps thinks that trading a franchise QB was a good idea--and only after we go 5-11 next year will he and others of his ilk come around to the fact that players win games no matter how 'excellent' the coaching maybe. Did Cutler seem whiny in his post game press conferences, especially after losses? You bet he did. This season, we will all be wishing that our QB was substandard only when dealing with the media.............
Based on what? Cutler's death-defying rocket throws to his favorite WR......or his tendency to play poorly in big games?

watermock
07-08-2009, 07:02 AM
Wow.

This is funny.

Taco John
07-08-2009, 07:19 AM
I personally don't understand the criticism about him bringing his agent to a business meeting either. They did try to trade him afterall. He'd be a dope not to have his agent involved in the discussion.

Taco John
07-08-2009, 07:21 AM
No history change needed. Eddie was a putz... a putz who had "trust issues" with the staff.

He made it abundantly clear via his direct comments TO the media. In fact, he's been more direct with his ire towards Shanahan than we've heard from Cutler.

Apparently, if a player has "trust issues" with a coaching staff, he's automatically entitled to act like a complete douche-bag. So, I simply asked why Quiterson was demonized and Quitler gets hero's sendoff from a few around here.


Oh, I understand that you're trying to change history and make Eddie's issues different today than they were yesterday. But it's not working. Everybody knows that Eddie quit on the team in the middle of a week where he was going to be a featured receiver, where on the other hand, Jay was being traded during an offseason where he was coming in on his own time to study the new system. The issues are not even remotely similar.

Nobody is buying what you are selling. So why do you keep selling it?

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 07:22 AM
I personally don't understand the criticism about him bringing his agent to a business meeting either. They did try to trade him afterall. He'd be a dope not to have his agent involved in the discussion.

Well, its hypocritical to Jay's stance that he wanted a "man to man" talk with McDaniels

He said as much afterwards when he said he stayed in town for a few hours hoping McD would call him up for coffee or something of that nature...he wanted to make it a personal mash session but then made it alll business when he showed up for the meeting

hes a hypocrite

Taco John
07-08-2009, 07:25 AM
Well, its hypocritical to Jay's stance that he wanted a "man to man" talk with McDaniels

He said as much afterwards when he said he stayed in town for a few hours hoping McD would call him up for coffee or something of that nature...he wanted to make it a personal mash session but then made it alll business when he showed up for the meeting

hes a hypocrite

That might be a fair point. But let's find out how fair you really are...

Do you also find hypocrisy in the fact that the Broncos shut down communication with Jay's camp once the story broke (refusing to take Jay's and Bus's calls) and then later complained that Jay wouldn't take their calls?

Beantown Bronco
07-08-2009, 07:28 AM
As I mentioned a few pages back, but it went ignored:

The first time Cutler went in there alone, without Bus, he was explicitly told certain things by Bowlen about the team, his role and the immediate future. Then Bowlen tried to play dumb about those things later when questioned about it (even though he had already gone on record as admitting that he said them).

Wouldn't you want a witness at your side for any future meetings for the sole purpose of keeping such a thing from happening again?

Taco John
07-08-2009, 07:34 AM
As I mentioned a few pages back, but it went ignored:

The first time Cutler went in there alone, without Bus, he was explicitly told certain things by Bowlen about the team, his role and the immediate future. Then Bowlen tried to play dumb about those things later when questioned about it (even though he had already gone on record as admitting that he said them).

Wouldn't you want a witness at your side for any future meetings for the sole purpose of keeping such a thing from happening again?


This is a very good point.

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 07:40 AM
That might be a fair point. But let's find out how fair you really are...

Do you also find hypocrisy in the fact that the Broncos shut down communication with Jay's camp once the story broke (refusing to take Jay's and Bus's calls) and then later complained that Jay wouldn't take their calls?

I'm not going to make you dig it up, but when did they ignore phone calls from their player and the agent? All I ever read was that Jay was in Atlanta and McD and Bowlen were trying to get in touch with him....this is after the story broke.

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 07:42 AM
As I mentioned a few pages back, but it went ignored:

The first time Cutler went in there alone, without Bus, he was explicitly told certain things by Bowlen about the team, his role and the immediate future. Then Bowlen tried to play dumb about those things later when questioned about it (even though he had already gone on record as admitting that he said them).

Wouldn't you want a witness at your side for any future meetings for the sole purpose of keeping such a thing from happening again?

Cutler was told he was the Denver Broncos QB....which he was.

The organization has absolutely no reason to tell him what moves they are making with other franchises....

I think what this really comes down to is whether you think the FO should be telling their players EXACTLY whats going on at all times....I don't.

They told Jay he was the quarterback...and that wasnt a lie

kamakazi_kal
07-08-2009, 07:44 AM
I've got a feeling that Cutler will be a starting QB longer then Mcd will be a HC ....... just a feeling ......

kamakazi_kal
07-08-2009, 07:47 AM
Cutler was told he was the Denver Broncos QB....which he was.

The organization has absolutely no reason to tell him what moves they are making with other franchises....

I think what this really comes down to is whether you think the FO should be telling their players EXACTLY whats going on at all times....I don't.

They told Jay he was the quarterback...and that wasnt a lie

Both sides botched this one .....

you do tell a QB that's supposed to be the face of your franchise.

I belive cutler was learning the new system when the trade rumors surfaced and that's when he flew out of town ...

OABB
07-08-2009, 07:55 AM
We traded Cutler!

holy sh*t!

Beantown Bronco
07-08-2009, 07:58 AM
Cutler was told he was the Denver Broncos QB....which he was.

The organization has absolutely no reason to tell him what moves they are making with other franchises....

I think what this really comes down to is whether you think the FO should be telling their players EXACTLY whats going on at all times....I don't.

They told Jay he was the quarterback...and that wasnt a lie

No, no, no. This is not the point. It wasn't just about Cutler. It was about the entire offense. Whether or not you feel a FO should tell their players everything isn't the issue. Bowlen did feel he should and actually went out of his way to do just that.

"Jay was disappointed in the firing of Mike Shanahan and met with the owner. The owner assured him everything would be fine. The owner said he had the second-best offense in football and would leave the offensive staff intact. Jay was good with that. Then he hires an offensive coach who gets rid of the staff," Cook told NFL.com.

Bowlen originally confirmed all this immediately after the meeting happened, but then a few weeks later, once the storm started to roll in, he conveniently denied such a meeting happened.

It's not simply a "Jay is our QB" statement that is at issue here. It's the entire offense, coaching and staffing that are in play here.

Jay was lied to in his first one-on-one. He didn't want to be put in that position again where it looked like it was his word vs. an owner's....even if said owner is going senile.

TailgateNut
07-08-2009, 08:50 AM
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

Taco John
07-08-2009, 09:00 AM
I'm not going to make you dig it up, but when did they ignore phone calls from their player and the agent? All I ever read was that Jay was in Atlanta and McD and Bowlen were trying to get in touch with him....this is after the story broke.



Per The Denver Post:

"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him...

Cutler said Broncos officials denied they were trying to trade him, in a conversation with his agent, Bus Cook. Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.


http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_11810112

Taco John
07-08-2009, 09:04 AM
I think what this really comes down to is whether you think the FO should be telling their players EXACTLY whats going on at all times....I don't.




I don't think they need to tell the players EXACTLY what is going on at all times - until the point comes where the player is left out on an island and has the national media beating on his door asking him for his reaction to what your organization is doing. At that point, the jig is up. You call, you explain, and you get the player on the same page as you so that the player has the information to deal with the situation, and isn't left guessing at your motives based on what the media is telling him.

SoDak Bronco
07-08-2009, 09:10 AM
Who Cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Who Cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

judging by the 345 posts and the 14 pages in this thread my guess is no one.

Popps
07-08-2009, 11:40 AM
Huh? Matter of semantics. So why are they asking that Cutler meet them without his agent when they said it is all business afterall?

They never said it was a "business" meeting. It wasn't a financial discussion.

It was designed to be a meeting between player and coach aimed at clearing the air between them. Quitler showed up with his da-da.

So, Bus Cook shows up to what was intended to be a player/coach one on one meeting... and all talks immediately collapse.

Now, if you want to believe that none of that had anything to do with contractual issues, you feel free to do so. I just won't be joining you.

gyldenlove
07-08-2009, 11:49 AM
They never said it was a "business" meeting. It wasn't a financial discussion.

It was designed to be a meeting between player and coach aimed at clearing the air between them. Quitler showed up with his da-da.

So, Bus Cook shows up to what was intended to be a player/coach one on one meeting... and all talks immediately collapse.

Now, if you want to believe that none of that had anything to do with contractual issues, you feel free to do so. I just won't be joining you.

Why did Mcdaniels bring Bowlen and Xanders and Ellis if it was a player - coach meeting? They were all present to my knowledge. When you are at that point, every meeting is business.

Meck77
07-08-2009, 11:58 AM
When do we declare a winner?


Who Posted?
Total Posts: 347
User Name Posts
tsiguy96 36
Popps 36
DBroncos4life 35
Taco John 30
Blueflame 29
BroncoBuff 26
TheDave 19
vancejohnson82 11
24champ 10
Spider 9
summerdenver 8
SoCalBronco 8
NFLBRONCO 7
sirhcyennek81 7
Beantown Bronco 6
Cito Pelon 5
elsid13 5
footstepsfrom#27 4
Jason in LA 4
broncofan7 4
Atlas 4
hambone13 3
Br0nc0Buster 3
Irish Stout 2
bronco_boi_5280 2
TheReverend 2
19Morton77 2
Garcia Bronco 2
SureShot 2
watermock 2
worm 2
kamakazi_kal 2
gyldenlove 2
orangeandblueblooded 2
SouthStndJunkie 2
2KBack 2
montrose 1
broncofan2438 1
DarkHorse30 1
Broncos4tw 1
boppool 1
Tombstone RJ 1
TailgateNut 1
Paladin 1
cutthemdown 1
SoDak Bronco 1
lostknight 1
bpc 1
Show T

BroncoBuff
07-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Only 26 for me?

I better buckle down and get busy here .... ;D

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 12:02 PM
Why did Mcdaniels bring Bowlen and Xanders and Ellis if it was a player - coach meeting? They were all present to my knowledge. When you are at that point, every meeting is business.

McDaniels said that once Cook was there he wanted to bring in Colonel Xanders...

BroncoBuff
07-08-2009, 12:07 PM
As I mentioned a few pages back, but it went ignored:

The first time Cutler went in there alone, without Bus, he was explicitly told certain things by Bowlen about the team, his role and the immediate future. Then Bowlen tried to play dumb about those things later when questioned about it (even though he had already gone on record as admitting that he said them).

Wouldn't you want a witness at your side for any future meetings for the sole purpose of keeping such a thing from happening again?
Definitely ... I mentioned that earlier too, that the fuse was lit when Josh first ostensibly "lied" to Jay about the trade talks.... I'm pretty sure that was a one-on-one talk. The other reps came in later.

And Bowlen's memory did seem like an odd problem early on, good point.

I can' shake the thought that Jay really did want to play here. He was so proud of that 2006 draft class, and after all he said he would show at all mandatory functions. Plus, he said some really crazy things right after the trade ... said he was "surprised." Remember he said all that weird stuff?

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Only 26 for me?

I better buckle down and get busy here .... ;D

Slacker :)

BroncoBuff
07-08-2009, 12:10 PM
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorseWho Cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're both right of course ... but it's still interesting to lots of folks ???

I hope mentions of the words "Jay" and "Cutler" drop about 90% once TC starts.

Popps
07-08-2009, 12:16 PM
Why did Mcdaniels bring Bowlen and Xanders and Ellis if it was a player - coach meeting? They were all present to my knowledge. When you are at that point, every meeting is business.

They didn't. Broncos brass were called in AFTER Jay showed up with Bus in tow.

If Jay Cutler agrees to a new meeting with Josh McDaniels, the Broncos coach wants it to be just the two of them.

McDaniels said today he does not want Cutler's agent, Bus Cook, to sit in if the coach can meet with the quarterback to try and soothe the rift that's opened between them.

"It's not an issue for an agent. That's all I say," McDaniels said at the owners' meetings today, according to the Denver Post. "We're not talking about contract. That's why I want to speak with the player."

Cutler said he watched McDaniels' comments on the NFL Network yesterday, but didn't say if he has reached out to the coach.

"One thing I want to do and continually want to do is meet with the player. I want to meet with the player by myself," McDaniels said today. "I want to meet with the player one-on-one. I think that's the best way to fix any kind of issue. And if there's anything I would change, it would be the amount of time I've had to do that thus far."

Denver columnist Mark Kiszla said earlier this week that Cook is leading Cutler astray and recommended the quarterback fire Cook


But, guess who Quitler brought to the meeting....

His da-da!

But, none of it was about money. Rest assured.

:thumbs:

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 12:20 PM
You're both right of course ... but it's still interesting to lots of folks ???

I hope mentions of the words "Jay" and "Cutler" drop about 90% once TC starts.

It will drop once the season starts...however, this is something that is going to become part of Denver Broncos lore.....I'm just hoping its not a Sam Bowie type thing

Beantown Bronco
07-08-2009, 12:22 PM
Facts:

Cutler showed up for weeks to all team/coach-player/owner-player meetings and workouts without Bus.

The sh*t hit the fan, so the FO stone-walled Bus and Cutler....not returning THEIR calls.

The owner lies to the media about meeting with Cutler, even though he previously admitted to the media that he did meet with him.

Cutler decides not to meet with any of them unless his agent is there as a witness.

McDaniels now conveniently says it's impossible for him to get a sit-down with Cutler one-on-one.

Question:

Why would it all be about a new contract in Denver, while it's all of a sudden not an issue now in Chicago?

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 12:26 PM
They didn't. Broncos brass were called in AFTER Jay showed up with Bus in tow.

If Jay Cutler agrees to a new meeting with Josh McDaniels, the Broncos coach wants it to be just the two of them.

McDaniels said today he does not want Cutler's agent, Bus Cook, to sit in if the coach can meet with the quarterback to try and soothe the rift that's opened between them.

"It's not an issue for an agent. That's all I say," McDaniels said at the owners' meetings today, according to the Denver Post. "We're not talking about contract. That's why I want to speak with the player."

Cutler said he watched McDaniels' comments on the NFL Network yesterday, but didn't say if he has reached out to the coach.

"One thing I want to do and continually want to do is meet with the player. I want to meet with the player by myself," McDaniels said today. "I want to meet with the player one-on-one. I think that's the best way to fix any kind of issue. And if there's anything I would change, it would be the amount of time I've had to do that thus far."

Denver columnist Mark Kiszla said earlier this week that Cook is leading Cutler astray and recommended the quarterback fire Cook


But, guess who Quitler brought to the meeting....

His da-da!

But, none of it was about money. Rest assured.

:thumbs:
Any new word on the contract talks with the Bears? I mean by now Jay has to be livid about not getting a new deal. He is so pissed off that he is turning down endorsements and going to let his play on the football field do the talking for him. I mean how pissed off is a guy that is going to turn down deals that would make him millions of dollas (which is MONEY buy the way) because his agent can't get him a new contract already.

Popps
07-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Any new word on the contract talks with the Bears?

You don't understand.

The Broncos didn't trade him to the bears contingent on Quitler and Bus being happy with the terms of the future contract arrangements.

The Bears may have no intention of extending him, either. (Though, I'm willing to bet they will, and soon.)

Get it?

Teams don't trade players for the player's best interest.

They trade the player to the team that gives them the best offer.

Hopefully that will clear it up your confusion. What the Bears have done to this point with Jay's contract has ZERO to do with Quitler/Bus' intentions when they approached our front office. So, you can quit repeating yourself.

Popps
07-08-2009, 12:36 PM
Why would it all be about a new contract in Denver, while it's all of a sudden not an issue now in Chicago?

Again, irrelevant... and we may yet see a contract reworked in Chicago. My guess is that we will very soon.

That said, absolutely irrelevant. What IS relevant is that Bus Cook showed up to what was supposed to be a player/coach one on one.

Agents exist for one thing, and lending emotional support isn't one of them...

Beantown Bronco
07-08-2009, 12:44 PM
That said, absolutely irrelevant. What IS relevant is that Bus Cook showed up to what was supposed to be a player/coach one on one..

You keep saying this as if it's fact, but it's not. It's one guy's account of how it happened.

gyldenlove
07-08-2009, 12:44 PM
They didn't. Broncos brass were called in AFTER Jay showed up with Bus in tow.

If Jay Cutler agrees to a new meeting with Josh McDaniels, the Broncos coach wants it to be just the two of them.

McDaniels said today he does not want Cutler's agent, Bus Cook, to sit in if the coach can meet with the quarterback to try and soothe the rift that's opened between them.

"It's not an issue for an agent. That's all I say," McDaniels said at the owners' meetings today, according to the Denver Post. "We're not talking about contract. That's why I want to speak with the player."

Cutler said he watched McDaniels' comments on the NFL Network yesterday, but didn't say if he has reached out to the coach.

"One thing I want to do and continually want to do is meet with the player. I want to meet with the player by myself," McDaniels said today. "I want to meet with the player one-on-one. I think that's the best way to fix any kind of issue. And if there's anything I would change, it would be the amount of time I've had to do that thus far."

Denver columnist Mark Kiszla said earlier this week that Cook is leading Cutler astray and recommended the quarterback fire Cook


But, guess who Quitler brought to the meeting....

His da-da!

But, none of it was about money. Rest assured.

:thumbs:

Boy it was lucky they all happened to have time and be available at a moments notice. That sounds extremely made up to me.

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 12:45 PM
You don't understand.

The Broncos didn't trade him to the bears contingent on Quitler and Bus being happy with the terms of the future contract arrangements.

The Bears may have no intention of extending him, either. (Though, I'm willing to bet they will, and soon.)

Get it?

Teams don't trade players for the player's best interest.

They trade the player to the team that gives them the best offer.

Hopefully that will clear it up your confusion. What the Bears have done to this point with Jay's contract has ZERO to do with Quitler/Bus' intentions when they approached our front office. So, you can quit repeating yourself.
You don't get it. First they are not going to trade two first rounder, a third rounder, and Kyle Orton for a two year rental and a 5th round pick and not lock him up.

Money was the issue with Clinton Portis. He was traded and signed a new deal right away. Just like Champ a new deal was waiting for him with a few days of being traded.

If money was the issue he would hold out in Chicago and he wouldn't be turning down people throwing money at him.

I guess Jay stopped wanting money when he got to a coach he could trust then is that it popps?

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 12:52 PM
You don't get it. First they are not going to trade two first rounder, a third rounder, and Kyle Orton for a two year rental and a 5th round pick and not lock him up.

Money was the issue with Clinton Portis. He was traded and signed a new deal right away. Just like Champ a new deal was waiting for him with a few days of being traded.

If money was the issue he would hold out in Chicago and he wouldn't be turning down people throwing money at him.

I guess Jay stopped wanting money when he got to a coach he could trust then is that it popps?


Thats absurd....once Jay was traded he and his friggin agent went into a complete image rebuilding mode....between him saying all the right things about Chicago to "just wanting to win" to turning down endorsements before he "proves something"

this guy is so full of **** i should light him on fire and put him on an old man's doorstep to be stomped on

"He called the **** poop...he called the **** poop" -- Billy Madison

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Thats absurd....once Jay was traded he and his friggin agent went into a complete image rebuilding mode....between him saying all the right things about Chicago to "just wanting to win" to turning down endorsements before he "proves something"

this guy is so full of **** i should light him on fire and put him on an old man's doorstep to be stomped on

"He called the **** poop...he called the **** poop" -- Billy Madison

Call it want you want but Bus and Jay could have easily gotten a new contract right away. No team is going to dump what the Bears did to get Jay and not want to lock him up to a long contract. They have too much invested in him not to do just that. Do you think his image would have been hurt at all in Chicago for him signing a new contract right away? I doubt Bears fans would even think twice about it.

BroncoBuff
07-08-2009, 01:03 PM
The Broncos didn't trade him to the bears contingent on Quitler and Bus being happy with the terms of the future contract arrangements.
I'm glad you're coming around on that ... money was not a factor.

Jay pouting, yes ... but money, no.



The Bears may have no intention of extending him, either.
Now there's a laugh ... you should try standup ;D

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 01:03 PM
Call it want you want but Bus and Jay could have easily gotten a new contract right away. No team is going to dump what the Bears did to get Jay and not want to lock him up to a long contract. They have too much invested in him not to do just that. Do you think his image would have been hurt at all in Chicago for him signing a new contract right away? I doubt Bears fans would even think twice about it.

They ARE going to give him a new contract...I'm sure they are already in talks..."I'm gonna go ahead and call it" ---- Cutler will have a new contract by the start of the season

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 01:17 PM
They ARE going to give him a new contract...I'm sure they are already in talks..."I'm gonna go ahead and call it" ---- Cutler will have a new contract by the start of the season

You be careful out on that limb ok? Might fall and hurt yourself.

ScottXray
07-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Threadkiller says this thread must DIE!

Talk about beating a dead horse!

Champ, JCut, Agents, rants and raves, what he said, what they said.
None of it matters anymore.

Camp opens at the end of the month! thank the lord!

Taco John
07-08-2009, 01:31 PM
I don't see how anybody can credibly make the claim that the whole thing was about money. If it was merely about money, then Cutler would be jumping at every endorsement deal that came his way. His actions kind of shoot that whole argument down.

vancejohnson82
07-08-2009, 01:35 PM
I don't see how anybody can credibly make the claim that the whole thing was about money. If it was merely about money, then Cutler would be jumping at every endorsement deal that came his way. His actions kind of shoot that whole argument down.

I dont think anyone is saying it was solely about money....but why else would Bus Cook even take the time out of his day to comment/go to meeting/etc...

is it because:

1) Bus is just a really nice guy
2) Bus was bored and had nothing going on at the time
3) Bus loves spending time with Jay
4) Bus saw the opportunity for a new contract this year

I go with 4) although 1) would be my second choice

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I dont think anyone is saying it was solely about money....but why else would Bus Cook even take the time out of his day to comment/go to meeting/etc...

is it because:

1) Bus is just a really nice guy
2) Bus was bored and had nothing going on at the time
3) Bus loves spending time with Jay
4) Bus saw the opportunity for a new contract this year

I go with 4) although 1) would be my second choice

True answer is "none of the above"....

5) It was Bus' job to be there; Jay was paying him to be there.

When the guy who signs your checks says he wants you to be there at a certain place and a certain time... then if you want to continue to receive checks with that guy's signature on 'em, you're there.

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 02:51 PM
if cutler wanted to be a bronco, he would still be here. but he didnt, he forced his way out of denver, and thus kyle orton is the QB. next.

Popps
07-08-2009, 02:56 PM
5) It was Bus' job to be there; Jay was paying him to be there.
.

Absolutely incorrect.

It is not an agent's job to be involved in player-coach meetings. Do you think Champ Bailey brings his agent in to watch film or for team meetings?

This was not a financial meeting. It was a personality meeting. That was made abundantly clear BEFORE the meeting, and Jay still brought his da-da.

Again, the reasons for that are obvious to anyone willing to just look at it logically.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 02:59 PM
Absolutely incorrect.

It is not an agent's job to be involved in player-coach meetings. Do you think Champ Bailey brings his agent in to watch film or for team meetings?

This was not a financial meeting. It was a personality meeting. That was made abundantly clear BEFORE the meeting, and Jay still brought his da-da.

Again, the reasons for that are obvious to anyone willing to just look at it logically.

I think it's the agent's job to be there if "the player" wants him there... no matter what the purpose of the meeting is.

16slayer24
07-08-2009, 03:20 PM
isint it te players responsibly to be there if the owner says be there???

24champ
07-08-2009, 03:22 PM
I don't see how anybody can credibly make the claim that the whole thing was about money.

The same people that have been harping about "football 101" and that the "foundation of a team starts with a DL"...Then claim the defensive line has improved tremendously this offseason with these "upgrades"...

PETERSON: 1 start in 6 years, this past season for an injured Ekuban
FIELDS: 9 starts in 4 years ... all 9 as an injury fill-in in 2006
McBEAN: Has played in just 1 game ever, and was out of the league last year


Riiight ::)

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 03:26 PM
isint it te players responsibly to be there if the owner says be there???

If he wants to continue playing for that franchise, yes. If he wants to be traded, however... blowing off the boss is probably going to be an effective course of action.

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 03:38 PM
If he wants to continue playing for that franchise, yes. If he wants to be traded, however... blowing off the boss is probably going to be an effective course of action.

true dat. unforunately he had to throw everyone who ever cheered him on in this league under the bus in order to satisfy his feelings. good goin cutler.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 03:40 PM
true dat. unforunately he had to throw everyone who ever cheered him on in this league under the bus in order to satisfy his feelings. good goin cutler.

I don't feel "thrown under the bus".... he moved on and so have I. *shrug*

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 03:42 PM
I don't feel "thrown under the bus".... he moved on and so have I. *shrug*

just as pat bowlen said in his letter, he put himself above the team, and because of that he got shipped out.

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 03:43 PM
I don't feel "thrown under the bus".... he moved on and so have I. *shrug*

Some posters have deep abandonment issues.

Taco John
07-08-2009, 03:47 PM
I dont think anyone is saying it was solely about money....but why else would Bus Cook even take the time out of his day to comment/go to meeting/etc...

is it because:

1) Bus is just a really nice guy
2) Bus was bored and had nothing going on at the time
3) Bus loves spending time with Jay
4) Bus saw the opportunity for a new contract this year

I go with 4) although 1) would be my second choice


I'm going to go with

5) Bus represents the player who was being shopped for a trade


I can't understand why anyone thinks that Jay didn't have a legitimate reason to have his agent present at the meeting. Further, I can't understand why Pat Bowlen didn't find reason to attend it himself. THAT'S where he could have solved this problem. THAT'S where this entire ordeal could have been put right to bed.

You are right though: Bus was going to ask for more money to bury the issue (I'm pretty sure Pat knew this, and that's why he didn't show up to the meeting). The Broncos gave Bus just the opening he needed. Once the first media leak happened, the only way the issue was going to go away was with either a trade, or a signature on a new contract.

Bill Belichick probably still high-fives himself over the maneuver. He got one of the hottest young quarterbacks in the game out of the conference while weakening one of his defected disciples.

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm going to go with

5) Bus represents the player who was being asked to come in to meet with the owner and coaches to clear up misunderstandings and get everyones story on the same page so they could move past and focus on winning football games

fixed

Taco John
07-08-2009, 03:59 PM
fixed



Hahaha... If this was peewee league (and not a multi-hundred billion dollar industry), you'd have fixed my statement.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 04:00 PM
just as pat bowlen said in his letter, he put himself above the team, and because of that he got shipped out.

He wanted to be traded. He eventually was traded. Where's the big issue here?

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 04:01 PM
Hahaha... If this was peewee league (and not a multi-hundred billion dollar industry), you'd have fixed my statement.

if said player in question had a professional level of maturity (which btw he praises jason campbell for having in an identical situation), i would have fixed your statement. instead, he felt it better to sit at home and talk via bus cook.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 04:04 PM
if said player in question had a professional level of maturity (which btw he praises jason campbell for having in an identical situation), i would have fixed your statement. instead, he felt it better to sit at home and talk via bus cook.

By that point in time, Cutler had no interest whatsoever in clearing up misunderstandings. He wanted out of Denver (away from McDaniels) and eventually achieved that goal.

Taco John
07-08-2009, 04:04 PM
if said player in question had a professional level of maturity (which btw he praises jason campbell for having in an identical situation), i would have fixed your statement. instead, he felt it better to sit at home and talk via bus cook.


I don't disagree with any of that. I've never claimed Cutler was a mature individual. Just one of the most talented I've ever seen. The same goes for Elway when I was defending him from the jackals back home when he was pulling his stunts. I don't watch football to get etiquitte tips from overgrown kids. I watch it because of what happens between the two sticks in the ground.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 04:08 PM
I don't disagree with any of that. I've never claimed Cutler was a mature individual. Just one of the most talented I've ever seen. The same goes for Elway when I was defending him from the jackals back home when he was pulling his stunts. I don't watch football to get etiquitte tips from overgrown kids. I watch it because of what happens between the two sticks in the ground.

Yes, and I believe he will be successful in the NFL.... unfortunately he will now achieve that success for another franchise and not our beloved Broncos. :(

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 04:13 PM
Yes, and I believe he will be successful in the NFL.... unfortunately he will now achieve that success for another franchise and not our beloved Broncos. :(

and as you said, that is simply his doing, if he wanted to be a bronco, he still would be. which is why i will never root for him to succeed. hes not a classy player, not someone who has deserved or earned respect, not like the rod smiths, TD's of the world.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 04:24 PM
and as you said, that is simply his doing, if he wanted to be a bronco, he still would be. which is why i will never root for him to succeed. hes not a classy player, not someone who has deserved or earned respect, not like the rod smiths, TD's of the world.

We've been over this a zillion times in recent months. Something happened to make him want nothing more whatsoever to do with Josh McDaniels. Justified or not, he was convinced that McDaniels lied to him and I can't hold it against him if he doesn't want to work for a (perceived) liar because I don't like being lied to either.

McDaniels hasn't earned respect yet either.... just sayin'.

Furthermore, we have no guarantees that he would still be a Bronco even if he wanted to be one. McDaniels had already explored trade possibilities while Jay was doing everything possible to ease the transition to the new coaching staff. We cannot be certain that the idea of trading Jay wasn't still lingering in his mind.

colonelbeef
07-08-2009, 06:54 PM
We've been over this a zillion times in recent months. Something happened to make him want nothing more whatsoever to do with Josh McDaniels. Justified or not, he was convinced that McDaniels lied to him and I can't hold it against him if he doesn't want to work for a (perceived) liar because I don't like being lied to either.

McDaniels hasn't earned respect yet either.... just sayin'.

Furthermore, we have no guarantees that he would still be a Bronco even if he wanted to be one. McDaniels had already explored trade possibilities while Jay was doing everything possible to ease the transition to the new coaching staff. We cannot be certain that the idea of trading Jay wasn't still lingering in his mind.

Excellent, cohesive, legible, sane post.

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 06:57 PM
We've been over this a zillion times in recent months. Something happened to make him want nothing more whatsoever to do with Josh McDaniels. Justified or not, he was convinced that McDaniels lied to him and I can't hold it against him if he doesn't want to work for a (perceived) liar because I don't like being lied to either.

McDaniels hasn't earned respect yet either.... just sayin'.

Furthermore, we have no guarantees that he would still be a Bronco even if he wanted to be one. McDaniels had already explored trade possibilities while Jay was doing everything possible to ease the transition to the new coaching staff. We cannot be certain that the idea of trading Jay wasn't still lingering in his mind.

i agree with the first part and 2nd part, but the third part i think its pretty obvious that had cutler showed up hed still be here, the broncos tried everything they could to get him to show up including going on national tv to reach out to him.

hambone13
07-08-2009, 07:09 PM
i agree with the first part and 2nd part, but the third part i think its pretty obvious that had cutler showed up hed still be here, the broncos tried everything they could to get him to show up including going on national tv to reach out to him.

They didn't fly out and try and mend the fences....their egos wouldn't fit on the plane.

Blueflame
07-08-2009, 07:35 PM
i agree with the first part and 2nd part, but the third part i think its pretty obvious that had cutler showed up hed still be here, the broncos tried everything they could to get him to show up including going on national tv to reach out to him.

Perhaps but by then Jay's mind was already made up that there would be no reconciliation. So anything they tried to do was "too little, too late"... and just possibly self-serving attempts to "look innocent" (or at least less culpable) to the fanbase. It's called "damage control"....

tsiguy96
07-08-2009, 07:46 PM
They didn't fly out and try and mend the fences....their egos wouldn't fit on the plane.

so now his employers are responsible for flying TO JAY when its his job to report to work and respond to your bosses? did they have to hold his dick when he pees too?

DBroncos4life
07-08-2009, 07:52 PM
so now his employers are responsible for flying TO JAY when its his job to report to work and respond to your bosses? did they have to hold his dick when he pees too?

I pretty sure the NFL has rules that they have to follow in the off-season. I don't think the can "force" a player to do something in the off-season.

Popps
07-08-2009, 09:59 PM
O.K... I love a good brawl, but even I'm getting tired of talking about this.

SoCalBronco
07-08-2009, 10:07 PM
just as pat bowlen said in his letter, he put himself above the team, and because of that he got shipped out.

Pat Bowlen's letter and 75 cents would get you a mediocre cup of coffee.

hambone13
07-08-2009, 10:11 PM
so now his employers are responsible for flying TO JAY when its his job to report to work and respond to your bosses? did they have to hold his dick when he pees too?

They didn't do everything they could to get him back is all I'm say'n....I think they could have saved it if they catered to his ego a bit to save the relationship. Professionally that is something that needs to happen with talent.

24champ
07-08-2009, 10:14 PM
O.K... I love a good brawl, but even I'm getting tired of talking about this.
;D
http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0060-0807-1220-5847_A_Beat_Up_Man_Waving_the_White_Flag_of_Surren der_clipart_image.jpg

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 06:33 AM
O.K... I love a good brawl, but even I'm getting tired of talking about this.

No wonder you like Eddie Quitterson so much.

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 06:40 AM
;D
http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0060-0807-1220-5847_A_Beat_Up_Man_Waving_the_White_Flag_of_Surren der_clipart_image.jpg

Popps has looked better ....

Kaylore
07-09-2009, 07:57 AM
I will always see it two ways:

1.) Cutler was genuinely offended and had hurt feelings over being discussed in a trade. This would mean he is one of the most egotistical, sensitive crybaby's in the league if this were true. Great players, many of them stable's of the franchise, get discussed in trade talks all the time. It's extremely common in baseball, more common in basketball, and not as common in football. Every other great player doesn't whine and piss and moan when it's discussed - especially when no trade is actually made. Getting mad about that is childish, ridiculous and fundamentally soft. It seems unlikely Cutler, after going through what he had, would be that soft. Which leads me to

2.) Cutler wanted out once he saw that McDaniels wasn't going to baby him and let him call the shots the way Shanahan did. I also think he was irked that Bowlen didn't involve Cutler more in the rehiring of a new coach. I think when Bates was gone he new he'd have to pull rope like the rest of them. I also believe that Cutler believes "he's there" and doesn't think he needs to work anything in his game. I really believe in his mind he's "as good as many, Ben Roethlisburger" and all the other guys he compared himself to in his press conference. I think after Cutler sat down with McDaniels and McDaniels showed him all his weaknesses he wanted to correct, Cutler got upset because he didn't think he needed anything to work on. He also probably felt if we already had to learn a new system, he might as well learn it in a team that would let him do what he wanted.

I don't know how anyone can excuse not returning calls from your owner. That's inexcusable and frankly childish. I would have a lot more respect for the Cutler defenders if they would say "yes, Cutler was stupid when he did that." Even Cutler has acknowledged there's things he would have done differently and hinted at that move in particular. I think hiding behind Bus Cook was cowardly too. You have a right to use your agent, but what are you so afraid of to meet just once without Cook?

Cutler had no intention of being a Bronco anymore. He didn't want to work and he didn't want to do anything on anyone else's terms. He used the trade talks as an excuse to "get mad" so he'd have a reason to force his way out of town. Lovie Smith is soft by Coaching standards known for being a player's coach and he'll let Cutler do what he wants. Cutler got what he wanted.

For what it's worth. I think Cutler's skill set wouldn't have been the greatest match in this system. I think we traded him at a time when he'll have his best value. I don't know that after a holdout and learning a new system if he would have had as good a year as he did last with more stress on running and his production would have dropped. It may have affected his value if we had tried to trade him.

I will never say Orton is better than Cutler and I think Chicago has the better QB. I do think Orton can be successful here and I think he will surprise people. There are things I will miss: Incredible accuracy, fourth quarter comebacks, the arm, the athleticism and being able to hit anywhere at any time. However when I consider things like Jay's drinking the night before big games (Buffalo, Oakland, San Diego) and then his subsequent bad performances, in addition to a belief that "he's arrived" and doesn't need to get better, as well as is immature brooding demeanor I can say honestly there are many things I won't miss about Jay.

He's a Bear now and so I hope he does poorly purely from the pick perspective. I hope he gets his alcoholism sorted out or it will ruin his life. I also hope after next year, things work out for both teams.

521 1N5
07-09-2009, 08:18 AM
He's a Bear now and so I hope he does poorly purely from the pick perspective. I hope he gets his alcoholism sorted out or it will ruin his life. I also hope after next year, things work out for both teams.

Everyone on the board should have this take. It would sure lighten the place up and put an end to all the drama.

tsiguy96
07-09-2009, 08:23 AM
kaylore, how you know he was drinking before the buffalo etc game?

not saying he didnt, just curious.

gyldenlove
07-09-2009, 08:25 AM
I will always see it two ways:

1.) Cutler was genuinely offended and had hurt feelings over being discussed in a trade. This would mean he is one of the most egotistical, sensitive crybaby's in the league if this were true. Great players, many of them stable's of the franchise, get discussed in trade talks all the time. It's extremely common in baseball, more common in basketball, and not as common in football. Every other great player doesn't whine and piss and moan when it's discussed - especially when no trade is actually made. Getting mad about that is childish, ridiculous and fundamentally soft. It seems unlikely Cutler, after going through what he had, would be that soft. Which leads me to

2.) Cutler wanted out once he saw that McDaniels wasn't going to baby him and let him call the shots the way Shanahan did. I also think he was irked that Bowlen didn't involve Cutler more in the rehiring of a new coach. I think when Bates was gone he new he'd have to pull rope like the rest of them. I also believe that Cutler believes "he's there" and doesn't think he needs to work anything in his game. I really believe in his mind he's "as good as many, Ben Roethlisburger" and all the other guys he compared himself to in his press conference. I think after Cutler sat down with McDaniels and McDaniels showed him all his weaknesses he wanted to correct, Cutler got upset because he didn't think he needed anything to work on. He also probably felt if we already had to learn a new system, he might as well learn it in a team that would let him do what he wanted.

I don't know how anyone can excuse not returning calls from your owner. That's inexcusable and frankly childish. I would have a lot more respect for the Cutler defenders if they would say "yes, Cutler was stupid when he did that." Even Cutler has acknowledged there's things he would have done differently and hinted at that move in particular. I think hiding behind Bus Cook was cowardly too. You have a right to use your agent, but what are you so afraid of to meet just once without Cook?

Cutler had no intention of being a Bronco anymore. He didn't want to work and he didn't want to do anything on anyone else's terms. He used the trade talks as an excuse to "get mad" so he'd have a reason to force his way out of town. Lovie Smith is soft by Coaching standards known for being a player's coach and he'll let Cutler do what he wants. Cutler got what he wanted.

For what it's worth. I think Cutler's skill set wouldn't have been the greatest match in this system. I think we traded him at a time when he'll have his best value. I don't know that after a holdout and learning a new system if he would have had as good a year as he did last with more stress on running and his production would have dropped. It may have affected his value if we had tried to trade him.

I will never say Orton is better than Cutler and I think Chicago has the better QB. I do think Orton can be successful here and I think he will surprise people. There are things I will miss: Incredible accuracy, fourth quarter comebacks, the arm, the athleticism and being able to hit anywhere at any time. However when I consider things like Jay's drinking the night before big games (Buffalo, Oakland, San Diego) and then his subsequent bad performances, in addition to a belief that "he's arrived" and doesn't need to get better, as well as is immature brooding demeanor I can say honestly there are many things I won't miss about Jay.

He's a Bear now and so I hope he does poorly purely from the pick perspective. I hope he gets his alcoholism sorted out or it will ruin his life. I also hope after next year, things work out for both teams.

I think Cutler was offended about the trade talks, he came in to Dove Valley to work on the playbook and the offense with Mcdaniels and Mccoy for a couple of weeks, he didn't have to do that and him doing that shows a commitment to improve his game and a willingness to go beyond what is required of him to help the team win and be successful. Then the team goes and tries to not only acquire a replacement for him, but they also try to get rid of him, despite him putting in extra effort to make the transition.

Clearly Cutler reacted too strongly and could have resolved the situation if he had decided to calm down or had taken the sit down with the team. Refusing to call back Bowlen was obviously childish and lead directly to Bowlens decision to trade him. I understand he was ticked off about being lied to and about the team on one hand having him come in and work on the playbook and on the other hand try to replace him, but the professional thing to do would have been to work it out.

Steve Yzerman was pissed off when there was talk about trading him, and I wouldn't call him childish, I think it is very natural to react when you are lied to and you put in extra effort spending a lot of face to face time and then realize later through channels that the people you are working with have been lying to you about wanting you there and while you have been coming in they have been working to get rid of you.

That he came in every day before the offseason opened up to work on the playbook clearly demonstrates that he wanted to be with the team and he was willing to work hard to be good. So claiming that he didn't want to be a Bronco and claiming he thought he was perfect is just downright false.

Cutler clearly has faults, his unwillingness to work it out is one, he seems to have listened too much to Bus Cook which is another. But it is clear that he wanted to work at his game and stories out of Chicago all seem to support that he is willing to improve and spend more time than required at working on his game.

Taco John
07-09-2009, 08:33 AM
I don't know how anyone can excuse not returning calls from your owner. That's inexcusable and frankly childish. I would have a lot more respect for the Cutler defenders if they would say "yes, Cutler was stupid when he did that." Even Cutler has acknowledged there's things he would have done differently and hinted at that move in particular. I think hiding behind Bus Cook was cowardly too. You have a right to use your agent, but what are you so afraid of to meet just once without Cook?


I understand your take on Cutler not taking Pat's call, but I can't remember hearing your take on the Broncos cut off communications with Bus Cook after the trade talks leaked to the media. Do you also find this inexcusable and childish?

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 08:41 AM
I don't know how anyone can excuse not returning calls from your owner. That's inexcusable and frankly childish.

or calculated.

One could easily argue that he knew it would get him the trade that he had resigned himself to at that point.

I would have a lot more respect for the Cutler defenders if they would say "yes, Cutler was stupid when he did that."

Stupid? Why? He got EXACTLY what he wanted by doing it.

You have a right to use your agent, but what are you so afraid of to meet just once without Cook?

How about the possibility of having his boss deny what was said in the meeting.......again.

Cutler had no intention of being a Bronco anymore. He didn't want to work and he didn't want to do anything on anyone else's terms. He used the trade talks as an excuse to "get mad" so he'd have a reason to force his way out of town.

Cutler's attendance at all mandatory and optional film sessions and meetings at the team offices prior to the trade talks completely blows this theory up.

He's a Bear now and so I hope he does poorly purely from the pick perspective. I hope he gets his alcoholism sorted out or it will ruin his life. I also hope after next year, things work out for both teams.

Agreed.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 08:44 AM
I understand your take on Cutler not taking Pat's call, but I can't remember hearing your take on the Broncos cut off communications with Bus Cook after the trade talks leaked to the media. Do you also find this inexcusable and childish?


I think the timeline is all off.....once the trade talks came out the team was trying to get in touch with Cutler who was in Atlanta.....why should they talk to Bus Cook?

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 08:47 AM
I think the timeline is all off.....once the trade talks came out the team was trying to get in touch with Cutler who was in Atlanta.....why should they talk to Bus Cook?

From taco's post about this yesterday, a few pages back:

Per The Denver Post:

"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him...

Cutler said Broncos officials denied they were trying to trade him, in a conversation with his agent, Bus Cook. Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.


http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_11810112

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 08:52 AM
From taco's post about this yesterday, a few pages back:

yes....they cut off communication with Bus Cook....not Cutler

thats what I'm trying to get at.....Bowlen was calling Cutler not his ****head agent

summerdenver
07-09-2009, 09:05 AM
I will always see it two ways:

1.) Cutler was genuinely offended and had hurt feelings over being discussed in a trade. This would mean he is one of the most egotistical, sensitive crybaby's in the league if this were true.


This is where crux of the diffrenece lies IMHO. why is someone considered a crybaby or egotistical, if he is hurt when his team is trying to trade him? To me it says that he lacks something if he is OK with it.

I heard Marshall Faulk saying on NFLN that when Polian was trading him, he let him know of his rationale and he also said if he were doing it behind his back he would have felt offended too. Things got bad not because Cutler was hurt but McDaniels tried to finnesse his way out of situation by a) denying trade talks initially and b) Painting Cutler's reaction as some kind of anti team sentiment.


2.)
I also believe that Cutler believes "he's there" and doesn't think he needs to work anything in his game. I really believe in his mind he's "as good as many, Ben Roethlisburger" and all the other guys he compared himself to in his press conference. I think after Cutler sat down with McDaniels and McDaniels showed him all his weaknesses he wanted to correct, Cutler got upset because he didn't think he needed anything to work on. He also probably felt if we already had to learn a new system, he might as well learn it in a team that would let him do what he wanted.



This is pure speculation and you are rationalizing things to fit what you feel is the truth. From all accounts Jay Cutler is a hard worker and prepares well. To imply he is lazy is silly. Immediately after the probowl, Cutler gave an interview saying that he needs to get better at restricting the turnovers and he apparently was working on it by coming to work in offseason.

In my view, what happenned is very simple -

Pat Bowlen wanted Jay here but he was concerned that if he got involved, it
would result in new coach losing control in locker room.

Having playing at vanderbilt in SEC, Jay came with a huge chip on his shoulder to NFL. He is a prideful guy and respect is very important to him. Most of his squirmishes with Rivers are rooted in his belief that Rivers disrespected him. He felt unwanted or disrepected or as you so eloquently explained it got hurt when trade talks broke out.

Coming from Patriots system, McDaniels genuinely believes that he can work with any QB. When the trade news broke out and Jay was offended his reaction naturally is to say, It will be good if you are here else I can win with someone else.

The only way this will work is if either McDaniels or Jay Cutler ceded to the other. However, it won't happen because of their backgrounds.

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 09:05 AM
yes....they cut off communication with Bus Cook....not Cutler

thats what I'm trying to get at.....Bowlen was calling Cutler not his ****head agent

It wasn't until weeks later that Bowlen tried calling Cutler.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 09:13 AM
This is where crux of the diffrenece lies IMHO. why is someone considered a crybaby or egotistical, if he is hurt when his team is trying to trade him? To me it says that he lacks something if he is OK with it.

This is pure speculation and you are rationalizing things to fit what you feel is the truth. From all accounts Jay Cutler is a hard worker and prepares well. To imply he is lazy is silly. Immediately after the probowl, Cutler gave an interview saying that he needs to get better at restricting the turnovers and he apparently was working on it by coming to work in offseason.

Having playing at vanderbilt in SEC, Jay came with a huge chip on his shoulder to NFL. He is a prideful guy and respect is very important to him. Most of his squirmishes with Rivers are rooted in his belief that Rivers disrespected him. He felt unwanted or disrepected or as you so eloquently explained it got hurt when trade talks broke out.

Coming from Patriots system, McDaniels genuinely believes that he can work with any QB. When the trade news broke out and Jay was offended his reaction naturally is to say, It will be good if you are here else I can win with someone else.

The only way this will work is if either McDaniels or Jay Cutler ceded to the other. However, it won't happen because of their backgrounds.


Its like in boxing....they say the best laid plans of men go out the window when a guy gets hit for the first time in a fight....and then the true fighter emerges....

when the Chargers were beating up on Cutler and the team on the Christmas Eve game Cutler responded by acting like a child and getting into a shouting match while being embarrassed on the field.....I forget which game it was but I remember as the clock rolled down on a loss he basically got up and tried to shove somebody (Raiders game? Chiefs game? not sure) Whenever there was a bad loss Cutler would hurry out and not speak to reporters

when he thought he was disprespected and brought up in trade talks, Cutler again was facing a "loss" in his eyes...as in he wasnt getting his respect...and he responded as we all expected him too....with a childish yell and a grab of the nuts to the Denver organization and fans...which is fine, thats just who he is.

But unless he grows up and learns how to take punch on the chin without responding like his inner child, he will never "get there"....sometimes a true competitor has to know when its time to swallow your pride and be cool about things....

For what its worth, Jay's name would have never been tossed around had he produced more wins and been a more mature player. I think McDaniels targeted a guy like Orton because he has been benched, booed and shoved into a corner before. so he knows that if things get tough this season he won't have a QB who is throwing his helmet or sulking on the sidelines

IF Cutler grows up he will be a force in Chicago, I just wouldnt bet on it

Popps
07-09-2009, 09:19 AM
when the Chargers were beating up on Cutler and the team on the Christmas Eve game Cutler responded by acting like a child and getting into a shouting match while being embarrassed on the field

Rivers owned him. Cutler in the Pro Bowl over Rivers was a total joke.

summerdenver
07-09-2009, 09:24 AM
Its like in boxing....they say the best laid plans of men go out the window when a guy gets hit for the first time in a fight....and then the true fighter emerges....

when the Chargers were beating up on Cutler and the team on the Christmas Eve game Cutler responded by acting like a child and getting into a shouting match while being embarrassed on the field.....I forget which game it was but I remember as the clock rolled down on a loss he basically got up and tried to shove somebody (Raiders game? Chiefs game? not sure) Whenever there was a bad loss Cutler would hurry out and not speak to reporters

when he thought he was disprespected and brought up in trade talks, Cutler again was facing a "loss" in his eyes...as in he wasnt getting his respect...and he responded as we all expected him too....with a childish yell and a grab of the nuts to the Denver organization and fans...which is fine, thats just who he is.

But unless he grows up and learns how to take punch on the chin without responding like his inner child, he will never "get there"....sometimes a true competitor has to know when its time to swallow your pride and be cool about things....

For what its worth, Jay's name would have never been tossed around had he produced more wins and been a more mature player. I think McDaniels targeted a guy like Orton because he has been benched, booed and shoved into a corner before. so he knows that if things get tough this season he won't have a QB who is throwing his helmet or sulking on the sidelines

IF Cutler grows up he will be a force in Chicago, I just wouldnt bet on it

I am not going rationalize that Jay is the perfect human being or The greatest QB ever. The only thing i say to above is that his reactions do not seem childish to me - granted not very polished but nothing outrageous either. I firmly believe that a team is made up different personalities and you work with them all them.

I have no problem with it, if McDaniels and Broncos believe that Jay cutler is not going to be very good or is a bad fit to their system. I would defintily defer to McDaniels and his expertise. However, I do not like that they want the cake and eat it too.

They tried to paint Jay cutler as some kind of villain in all this. If you want to get rid of him, do it. You will take PR hit initially but be a man and stand up to it and people will eventually support you as you start winning. Instead they are trying to paint a picture of - " We want him here but he does not want to come back. He does not want to comeback because he is lazy and does not work hard. He does not want to comback because he wants a new contract. He does not want to combeack because he is selfish and not a team guy blah blah ..."

This is unfair in my view. Either he is good and does not want to come back or he is not good and we are trying to get rid of him - but not both right?

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 09:25 AM
Rivers owned him. Cutler in the Pro Bowl over Rivers was a total joke.


I'm pretty sure Rivers was happy with the ass kicking he gave Cutler and the Broncos the past two years....going into the final game last year I almost didnt want to watch, it was like waiting for the other foot to come down on the season....it sucked

with any other FRANCHISE QB I doubt you get that feeling that your team has no shot...and don't give me the defense crap either....sure they sucked but Cutler did too...

and I don't care what anyone says now, but most of this board knew what was going to happen that night

24champ
07-09-2009, 09:29 AM
However when I consider things like Jay's drinking the night before big games (Buffalo, Oakland, San Diego) and then his subsequent bad performances.


Let me ask you this Kaylore....

Was Jay Cutler the only Bronco player out on the town the night before a game? Because you seem to think that all professional football players stay home in their room studying the playbook before a game.

Reality is most of the players like to let loose before a game, be it drinking, clubbing till 4am, smoking weed, being with women while their wives are at home. etc.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 09:30 AM
I am not going rationalize that Jay is the perfect human being or The greatest QB ever. The only thing i say to above is that his reactions do not seem childish to me - granted not very polished but nothing outrageous either. I firmly believe that a team is made up different personalities and you work with them all them.

I have no problem with it, if McDaniels and Broncos believe that Jay cutler is not going to be very good or is a bad fit to their system. I would defintily defer to McDaniels and his expertise. However, I do not like that they want the cake and eat it too.

They tried to paint Jay cutler as some kind of villain in all this. If you want to get rid of him, do it. You will take PR hit initially but be a man and stand up to it and people will eventually support you as you start winning. Instead they are trying to paint a picture of - " We want him here but he does not want to come back. He does not want to comeback because he is lazy and does not work hard. He does not want to comback because he wants a new contract. He does not want to combeack because he is selfish and not a team guy blah blah ..."

This is unfair in my view. Either he is good and does not want to come back or he is not good and we are trying to get rid of him - but not both right?

Well, I think to a certain degree Cutler has a bad rap on this board from some posters, myself included, because its hindsight.....back then when I saw him yelling or posturing on the sidelines I woudl say, "He's fiery" or "What a competitor"...but in retrospect, I'd rather have a guy with manning's personality who exudes ultimate control on the field and is calculating the whole time not just acting like a pissed off kid with a great arm in a backyard football game...which is how i did feel sometimes with Jay

and any fans across the league would have told you that Cutler was childish the past two years, except our obviously, because he was our guy....but where Shanahan could deal with that kind of stuff, McDaniels probably couldnt...and once he got another whiff of the immaturity he wanted to cut all ties and bring in a guy he could work with

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 09:31 AM
Let me ask you this Kaylore....

Was Jay Cutler the only Bronco player out on the town the night before a game? Because you seem to think that all professional football players stay home in their room studying the playbook before a game.

Reality is most of the players like to let loose before a game, be it drinking, clubbing till 4am, smoking weed, being with women while their wives are at home. etc.

I didnt know this....I know a lot of players go over each others houses the night before and have dinner or play video games (maybe smoking weed)

but 4am at clubs? that would be blown up in this day and age in a second with the cell phone cameras and whatnot

TailgateNut
07-09-2009, 09:34 AM
Its like in boxing....they say the best laid plans of men go out the window when a guy gets hit for the first time in a fight....and then the true fighter emerges....

when the Chargers were beating up on Cutler and the team on the Christmas Eve game Cutler responded by acting like a child and getting into a shouting match while being embarrassed on the field.....I forget which game it was but I remember as the clock rolled down on a loss he basically got up and tried to shove somebody (Raiders game? Chiefs game? not sure) Whenever there was a bad loss Cutler would hurry out and not speak to reporters

when he thought he was disprespected and brought up in trade talks, Cutler again was facing a "loss" in his eyes...as in he wasnt getting his respect...and he responded as we all expected him too....with a childish yell and a grab of the nuts to the Denver organization and fans...which is fine, thats just who he is.

But unless he grows up and learns how to take punch on the chin without responding like his inner child, he will never "get there"....sometimes a true competitor has to know when its time to swallow your pride and be cool about things....

For what its worth, Jay's name would have never been tossed around had he produced more wins and been a more mature player. I think McDaniels targeted a guy like Orton because he has been benched, booed and shoved into a corner before. so he knows that if things get tough this season he won't have a QB who is throwing his helmet or sulking on the sidelines

IF Cutler grows up he will be a force in Chicago, I just wouldnt bet on it



Great post IMO. I lost the little respect I had for him due to his childish (read :bitch) behavior. I was against benching Plummer for this crybaby and am glad he's no longer a Bronco. Gus and Jake had a set of balls, but Jay is missing at least one, if not both.

Good Ridance!

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 09:40 AM
1) Cutler was genuinely offedded and had hurt feelings over being discussed in a trade. This would mean he is one of the most egotistical, sensitive crybaby's in the league if this were true.
No way, no way ... star players get ticked off all the time at such things, constantly ... Boldin, Haynesworth, Ochocinco, Abraham, TO, Favre, guys cry and hold out and demand trades constantly (and that list us just off the top of my head). Even Joe Montana was ticked off when the 49ers started talking about starting Young, and Joe asked for a trade!

What you also forget is that - unlike the REAL crybabies all over the league - Jay never missed a team function, and stated clearly he would attend all mandatory functions. Showing up for team functions is definitely NOT being a crybaby, and contrary to Popps learned "legal analysis," Jay was in full compliance with his contract. 100%. In general, crybaby = holdout. Jay never held out.

I'm sick of defending Jay .... but some of you guys go too far. Jay didn't ask for all the media coverage, he didn't hold press conferences, and he didn't hold out. Period.


Great players, many of them stable's of the franchise, get discussed in trade talks all the time.Yes, but not usually behind their backs, and almost NEVER does a team lie about such things. I'm not sure Josh "lied" per se, but his story did change early - first it was "we had no talks," and that morphed into "they called us," then finally it was tacitly admitted the team was actively involved in some level of talks. And I feel certain Josh put up an authoritative wall when Jay cornered him ... he was surprised Jay knew about the talks because he's a neophyte in FO matters.

Also, some guys in here don't really understand the role of an agent: When a player is on the trading block, or EVEN DISCUSSED in regard to a trade, agents immediately get involved. Bus was doing his job, that's it. I'm telling you, that is just how it happens.

24champ
07-09-2009, 09:45 AM
I didnt know this....I know a lot of players go over each others houses the night before and have dinner or play video games (maybe smoking weed)


Some of them do, but reality is most of them hang out then go out downtown. I've seen a very prominent Bronco player do things that surprised me the night before a game, however these guys aren't my role models...never were. I watch them on sundays, that's all I really care about.



but 4am at clubs? that would be blown up in this day and age in a second with the cell phone cameras and whatnot

I'm just saying to single out Cutler for doing the same things a lot of professional football players do...is pretty lame, not to mention that the source is probably second hand or third hand info. Kahn and Montrose were never downtown. I also doubt they had a huge issue when the greatest player in this franchise had a well documented drinking problem. It wouldn't be a reach to say he was drinking before games as well.

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 09:49 AM
In fact, agents call teams all the tiiime! Every few weeks, they call to ask about this guy, that guy, "what are you guys looking for from Jim this season?" "we need to talk about extending Smith, what do you think right now?" They call to gossip, they call for social things, "Hey GM, I'll be in town Thursday, how about lunch?"

Agents are a constant presence ... they even come to games!!


DIDN'T ANYBODY SEE JERRY MAGUIRE?!?!? Arrggghhhh ... :moody:

Beantown Bronco
07-09-2009, 09:53 AM
...but in retrospect, I'd rather have a guy with manning's personality who exudes ultimate control on the field and is calculating the whole time not just acting like a pissed off kid with a great arm in a backyard football game...which is how i did feel sometimes with Jay


I take it you never watched much of Manning vs. the Pats in particular, before Indy finally figured them out. After pretty much every drive that ended without points, he'd have a fit before he even got off the field. A few of my buddies made a drinking game out of it.

2KBack
07-09-2009, 10:02 AM
I take it you never watched much of Manning vs. the Pats in particular, before Indy finally figured them out. After pretty much every drive that ended without points, he'd have a fit before he even got off the field. A few of my buddies made a drinking game out of it.

Yeah, while I'm usually on the Cutler damning side, Manning had his own reputation as a bit of a whiner. I mean, his bitching is commonly considered the trigger for reestablishing the illegal contact rules. Even Mr. Cool Brady gets testy when things aren't going his way. We just don't see it as often because these guys are usually winning far more than losing.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 10:09 AM
I take it you never watched much of Manning vs. the Pats in particular, before Indy finally figured them out. After pretty much every drive that ended without points, he'd have a fit before he even got off the field. A few of my buddies made a drinking game out of it.

A guy getting frustrated in playoff games is far different than a guy grabbing his balls and yelling at the other sideline

i understand Peyton had SOME of his emotions on his sleeve at times...but nothing close to what Jay did....

gyldenlove
07-09-2009, 10:24 AM
Yeah, while I'm usually on the Cutler damning side, Manning had his own reputation as a bit of a whiner. I mean, his b****ing is commonly considered the trigger for reestablishing the illegal contact rules. Even Mr. Cool Brady gets testy when things aren't going his way. We just don't see it as often because these guys are usually winning far more than losing.

Manning threw his kicker under the bus after a game as well as his offensive line after getting kicked in the teeth by Pittsburgh in 2006.

Cutler never came out after a game and blamed a loss on his offensive line and god knows he could have in 2007.

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 10:30 AM
Manning threw his kicker under the bus after a game as well as his offensive line after getting kicked in the teeth by Pittsburgh in 2006.

Cutler never came out after a game and blamed a loss on his offensive line and god knows he could have in 2007.

Cutler did throw the defense under the bus....which I have no problem with because they were terrible.....

and Cutler throwing his hands up in disbelief at recievers, or yelling "What the **** Eddie!!??" during games isnt too classy

TailgateNut
07-09-2009, 10:41 AM
Cutler did throw the defense under the bus....which I have no problem with because they were terrible.....

and Cutler throwing his hands up in disbelief at recievers, or yelling "What the **** Eddie!!??" during games isnt too classy


He just did that so the fans would doubt his "INFALLABLE GREATNESS".;D

summerdenver
07-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Cutler was childish the past two years, except our obviously, because he was our guy....but where Shanahan could deal with that kind of stuff, McDaniels probably couldnt...and once he got another whiff of the immaturity he wanted to cut all ties and bring in a guy he could work with


While I would not necessarily agree with this assessment I can also see how some other person could come to this conclusion. So, If McDaniels wanted to get rid of cutler because he felt he was childish fine then.

However, it does not mesh with the theory that McDaniels wanted him all along and Cutler planned his exit because he did not want to work hard or wanted a new contract.

Like I said earlier, its either We got rid of him because he is childish or he is good and we wanted him but he planned his exit. How can it be both?

vancejohnson82
07-09-2009, 11:57 AM
While I would not necessarily agree with this assessment I can also see how some other person could come to this conclusion. So, If McDaniels wanted to get rid of cutler because he felt he was childish fine then.

However, it does not mesh with the theory that McDaniels wanted him all along and Cutler planned his exit because he did not want to work hard or wanted a new contract.

Like I said earlier, its either We got rid of him because he is childish or he is good and we wanted him but he planned his exit. How can it be both?

I feel its like this....

Theres this slammin hot girl that you just started talking to and you are just trying to figure her out....then a few of your friends come up and validate some of your fears by telling you she's a psycho cheating whore and that you should watch out...you kind of heed their advice but keep talking to her because the upside is that you could have a hot chick who matures a bit and doesnt go off banging some bald dude in the back of a Jeep Wrangler. She seems nice enough for the first two weeks, comes over and watches game film, oops, I mean movies with you and it seems hunky dory. Then she finds a number in your cell phone that she doesnt like and all of your friends theories start to come true. She leaves a dead squirrel on your mountain bike seat one day and pisses on your front porch and then you hear about her giving out lubricated handjobs at the local Sunoco station. You call her and she doesnt answer...then you know its time to move on so you give her to the bald guy with the Jeep Wrangler for a really cool basket for your mountain bike, a Quentin Tarantino DVD set, a nice beach chair and Alphonso Smith

I mean, theres a chance that the bald guy with the Jeep Wrangler gets the better of the deal but who knows..,..he might marry a really hot chick or end up with a Glade bottle shoved up his ass one day.

Blueflame
07-09-2009, 12:03 PM
I will always see it two ways:

1.) Cutler was genuinely offended and had hurt feelings over being discussed in a trade. This would mean he is one of the most egotistical, sensitive crybaby's in the league if this were true. Great players, many of them stable's of the franchise, get discussed in trade talks all the time. It's extremely common in baseball, more common in basketball, and not as common in football. Every other great player doesn't whine and piss and moan when it's discussed - especially when no trade is actually made. Getting mad about that is childish, ridiculous and fundamentally soft. It seems unlikely Cutler, after going through what he had, would be that soft. Which leads me to
I rather suspect that Cutler would have handled the situation better if he had been informed that there was a possibility of trade discussions. But they didn't come to him like adults and tell him what was up; instead letting him come in every day on his own time (wasting weeks that he could have been spending like most other NFL players... on vacation or with family) to try to learn the playbook. I think it was the fact that the trade discussions were "behind his back" that made him distrust McDaniels.
2.) Cutler wanted out once he saw that McDaniels wasn't going to baby him and let him call the shots the way Shanahan did. I also think he was irked that Bowlen didn't involve Cutler more in the rehiring of a new coach. I think when Bates was gone he new he'd have to pull rope like the rest of them. I also believe that Cutler believes "he's there" and doesn't think he needs to work anything in his game. I really believe in his mind he's "as good as many, Ben Roethlisburger" and all the other guys he compared himself to in his press conference. I think after Cutler sat down with McDaniels and McDaniels showed him all his weaknesses he wanted to correct, Cutler got upset because he didn't think he needed anything to work on. He also probably felt if we already had to learn a new system, he might as well learn it in a team that would let him do what he wanted.
I think it was more his perception that what Bowlen and McDaniels said... was not necessarily what they did... and it's irrelevant whether or not that perception was valid or justified; he simply no longer wanted to work for guys he felt he couldn't trust.

I don't know how anyone can excuse not returning calls from your owner. That's inexcusable and frankly childish. I would have a lot more respect for the Cutler defenders if they would say "yes, Cutler was stupid when he did that." Even Cutler has acknowledged there's things he would have done differently and hinted at that move in particular. I think hiding behind Bus Cook was cowardly too. You have a right to use your agent, but what are you so afraid of to meet just once without Cook?

Cutler had no intention of being a Bronco anymore. He didn't want to work and he didn't want to do anything on anyone else's terms. He used the trade talks as an excuse to "get mad" so he'd have a reason to force his way out of town. Lovie Smith is soft by Coaching standards known for being a player's coach and he'll let Cutler do what he wants. Cutler got what he wanted.
I think by the time Cutler quit taking any calls, the situation was already beyond the point of no return. It did drag on... and on... and on, being hashed and rehashed in the media. IMHO, Pat should have immediately stepped in and made a firm statement... you know, "taken control of his team" like he said he was going to...

For what it's worth. I think Cutler's skill set wouldn't have been the greatest match in this system. I think we traded him at a time when he'll have his best value. I don't know that after a holdout and learning a new system if he would have had as good a year as he did last with more stress on running and his production would have dropped. It may have affected his value if we had tried to trade him.

I will never say Orton is better than Cutler and I think Chicago has the better QB. I do think Orton can be successful here and I think he will surprise people. There are things I will miss: Incredible accuracy, fourth quarter comebacks, the arm, the athleticism and being able to hit anywhere at any time. However when I consider things like Jay's drinking the night before big games (Buffalo, Oakland, San Diego) and then his subsequent bad performances, in addition to a belief that "he's arrived" and doesn't need to get better, as well as is immature brooding demeanor I can say honestly there are many things I won't miss about Jay.

He's a Bear now and so I hope he does poorly purely from the pick perspective. I hope he gets his alcoholism sorted out or it will ruin his life. I also hope after next year, things work out for both teams.
Chicago does now have the better QB... there's no doubt about that. He's still young and will have his good games and his bad ones, but I think overall, he'll succeed there. But hopefully his first year in that system will be "bumpy" so that our compensatory draft pick next year is better... but I hold no ill will toward Jay; in his position I just might have wanted out too.

watermock
07-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Warner didn't thank God after the last SB.


Damn him to hel!

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 02:17 PM
Wow ... 18 pages.

This thread might be in danger of joining the Ring of Fame.

DBroncos4life
07-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Wow ... 18 pages.

This thread might be in danger of joining the Ring of Fame.

Or at the very least provide posters with horrible bumping material.

El Minion
07-09-2009, 07:11 PM
No way, no way ... star players get ticked off all the time at such things, constantly ... Boldin, Haynesworth, Ochocinco, Abraham, TO, Favre, guys cry and hold out and demand trades constantly (and that list us just off the top of my head). Even Joe Montana was ticked off when the 49ers started talking about starting Young, and Joe asked for a trade!

What you also forget is that - unlike the REAL crybabies all over the league - Jay never missed a team function, and stated clearly he would attend all mandatory functions. Showing up for team functions is definitely NOT being a crybaby, and contrary to Popps learned "legal analysis," Jay was in full compliance with his contract. 100%. In general, crybaby = holdout. Jay never held out.

I'm sick of defending Jay .... but some of you guys go too far. Jay didn't ask for all the media coverage, he didn't hold press conferences, and he didn't hold out. Period.


Yes, but not usually behind their backs, and almost NEVER does a team lie about such things. I'm not sure Josh "lied" per se, but his story did change early - first it was "we had no talks," and that morphed into "they called us," then finally it was tacitly admitted the team was actively involved in some level of talks. And I feel certain Josh put up an authoritative wall when Jay cornered him ... he was surprised Jay knew about the talks because he's a neophyte in FO matters.

Also, some guys in here don't really understand the role of an agent: When a player is on the trading block, or EVEN DISCUSSED in regard to a trade, agents immediately get involved. Bus was doing his job, that's it. I'm telling you, that is just how it happens.

Keep chopping wood, the Jay haters will eventually fall.:thumbs:

worm
07-09-2009, 08:31 PM
Trust.

From Jays perspective it was CLEARLY broken.

One of the first comments on air from Jay when the news first broke was that he knew the Broncos were just going to deny and spin the rumors their way....but he had proof they were, in fact, trying to trade him.

With that mindset of his employer, of course he will insist on his agent being present during ANY talks and he will have a strong desire to remove himself from a situation where he perceived an irreconcilable lack of trust.

Some of you that need to invent other reasons are hilarious. Why the need to make this about money? Or Jay thinking 'hes there' or all the other crap some of you invent out of thin air.

Stubborn. Prideful. Hot-headed. There are a lot of adjectives you can use to describe Jay Cutler. However, he didn't light the match....he just poured the gasoline on his relationship with the Broncos when he saw McKid running around lighting all the matchsticks that Bowlen irresponsibly gave him.

I would want the hell out of that romper room as well.

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 10:14 PM
Trust.

From Jays perspective it was CLEARLY broken.

One of the first comments on air from Jay when the news first broke was that he knew the Broncos were just going to deny and spin the rumors their way....but he had proof they were, in fact, trying to trade him.

With that mindset of his employer, of course he will insist on his agent being present during ANY talks and he will have a strong desire to remove himself from a situation where he perceived an irreconcilable lack of trust.

Some of you that need to invent other reasons are hilarious. Why the need to make this about money? Or Jay thinking 'hes there' or all the other crap some of you invent out of thin air.

Stubborn. Prideful. Hot-headed. There are a lot of adjectives you can use to describe Jay Cutler. However, he didn't light the match....he just poured the gasoline on his relationship with the Broncos when he saw McKid running around lighting all the matchsticks that Bowlen irresponsibly gave him.

I would want the hell out of that romper room as well.

I'd rep that twice if they let me ... ;D

BroncoBuff
07-09-2009, 10:18 PM
Keep chopping wood, the Jay haters will eventually fall.:thumbs:
Maybe, but to be sure we'll have to conduct a urinalysis on them one at a time ... test for traces of KoolAid. :~ohyah!:


Actually, anybody who can call Champ's comparing Jay to John Elway, calling him "definitely a Top 10 quarterback" and a "great leader" ... anybody who calls those quotes "vanilla" is just too far gone. They're literally in such denial that their IQ levels are plummeting.

vancejohnson82
07-10-2009, 08:02 AM
Maybe, but to be sure we'll have to conduct a urinalysis on them one at a time ... test for traces of KoolAid. :~ohyah!:


Actually, anybody who can call Champ's comparing Jay to John Elway, calling him "definitely a Top 10 quarterback" and a "great leader" ... anybody who calls those quotes "vanilla" is just too far gone. They're literally in such denial that their IQ levels are plummeting.

hahahahahha.......so you are saying Jay can be compared to John Elway right now?

cmon dude....Theismann came out and said that Jason Campbell is a Pro Bowl QB....he may be, but do we just trust anyone who says anything

Champ should be more worried about analyzing his leg muscles than the QB of the Chicago Bears

Taco John
07-10-2009, 08:21 AM
IF Cutler grows up he will be a force in Chicago, I just wouldnt bet on it


It's like I'm back in the seventh grade again, listening to people tell me that crybaby Elway would never amount to anything - while I argue "whatever you say, man" because I had been watching the guy play every Sunday and knew what he had in him.

I hope that you are right and Cutler turns out to be a complete bum who can never get it together, because if it happens the other way around, we're going to look as foolish as Indianapolis did letting Elway get away.

tsiguy96
07-10-2009, 08:30 AM
It's like I'm back in the seventh grade again, listening to people tell me that crybaby Elway would never amount to anything - while I argue "whatever you say, man" because I had been watching the guy play every Sunday and knew what he had in him.

I hope that you are right and Cutler turns out to be a complete bum who can never get it together, because if it happens the other way around, we're going to look as foolish as Indianapolis did letting Elway get away.

you mean baltimore :welcome:

vancejohnson82
07-10-2009, 08:33 AM
It's like I'm back in the seventh grade again, listening to people tell me that crybaby Elway would never amount to anything - while I argue "whatever you say, man" because I had been watching the guy play every Sunday and knew what he had in him.

I hope that you are right and Cutler turns out to be a complete bum who can never get it together, because if it happens the other way around, we're going to look as foolish as Indianapolis did letting Elway get away.

I don't know whether you are trying to say that I havent seen enough of Cutler, whether I don't know football very well, or whether I'm just straight wrong in my analysis....either way I'm extremely offended 8')

All I'm saying is that there were things I loved about the "kid". Like HIs ability to flat out throw the ball into tight spots, throw on the run, get rid of the ball in traffic and obviously his arm strength.
And there were things I didnt like...the hands on the hips and elongated stares when a reciever missed a ball..the bolting out of the locker room after losses..the constant back and forth with the defenses...the forced passes inside the twenty.

Now, if you look at the things I don't like, they are mostly tied to being a young, competitive guy....and if he can get rid of some of those things he will be a great, great QB (as Champ said, he may be the best player in all of sports, on any planet, in any time period)....

But, as of right now, he is a top 10 current QB and it remains to be seen whether we gave away John Elway or Boomer Esiason in that trade.

I can deal with giving away the latter

El Minion
07-10-2009, 05:15 PM
Maybe, but to be sure we'll have to conduct a urinalysis on them one at a time ... test for traces of KoolAid. :~ohyah!:


Actually, anybody who can call Champ's comparing Jay to John Elway, calling him "definitely a Top 10 quarterback" and a "great leader" ... anybody who calls those quotes "vanilla" is just too far gone. They're literally in such denial that their IQ levels are plummeting.

Your post I quoted and worms just above are what needs to be kept being repeated from turning this myth that Cutler is a turd and McD as a my shít don't stink coach/GM into truth. What interest or incentive does Champ have for lying that Cutler is "definitely a Top 10 quarterback" and a "great leader"? Who better to evaluate Cutler on and off the field than a fellow teammate and one of the top two/three corners this past decade.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2009, 07:29 PM
hahahahahha.......so you are saying Jay can be compared to John Elway right now?
CHAMP BAILEY made the comparison to Elway, not me.

So your "hahahahahha" is laughing at CHAMP, not me.



(Bet you weren't expecting that, were you?)

watermock
07-10-2009, 07:33 PM
Champ is just defending his teammate...

oops!

Should of torn some comments out about Kyle.

Then you've of seen vanilla.

BroncoBuff
07-11-2009, 06:48 AM
Again, the reasons for that are obvious to anyone willing to just look at it logically.

Yes of course, we should just be willing to look at it logically.

Like when you said "The Bears might not have any intention of extending Cutler." That's the single dumbest post ever.

This combination of denial and obsession seems to be shutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

Blueflame
07-11-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes of course, we should just be willing to look at it logically.

Like when you said "The Bears might not have any intention of extending Cutler." That's the single dumbest post ever.

This combination of denial and obsession seems to be shutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

Right... because teams always give up two #1's and a #3 and their current starting QB for a better QB, only to allow that upgraded QB to leave via free agency within a year or two because they then won't extend his contract.... ::) The whole concept that they don't intend to pay the man (after what they gave up for him) is absurd.

Northman
07-11-2009, 11:59 AM
A guy getting frustrated in playoff games is far different than a guy grabbing his balls and yelling at the other sideline

i understand Peyton had SOME of his emotions on his sleeve at times...but nothing close to what Jay did....

I agree. Manning and Cutler are nowhere close to being the same.

Cito Pelon
07-12-2009, 08:08 AM
They didn't do everything they could to get him back is all I'm say'n....I think they could have saved it if they catered to his ego a bit to save the relationship. Professionally that is something that needs to happen with talent.

The FO and owner could only go so far to a player that didn't want to talk to them, would only deal with them on his terms. As has been said many times, Jay wanted out of Denver, felt slighted, insulted, and a little overwhelmed by Elway's shadow. One of the first things Jay talked about once he was traded was he didn't like living in Elway's shadow.

So it was gonna be a difficult relationship between Jay and Denver, period, if the FO/Bowlen were able to kiss his ass enough to get him into TC. It was best for both sides to move on.

Cito Pelon
07-12-2009, 08:27 AM
I think Cutler was offended about the trade talks, he came in to Dove Valley to work on the playbook and the offense with Mcdaniels and Mccoy for a couple of weeks, he didn't have to do that and him doing that shows a commitment to improve his game and a willingness to go beyond what is required of him to help the team win and be successful. Then the team goes and tries to not only acquire a replacement for him, but they also try to get rid of him, despite him putting in extra effort to make the transition.

Clearly Cutler reacted too strongly and could have resolved the situation if he had decided to calm down or had taken the sit down with the team. Refusing to call back Bowlen was obviously childish and lead directly to Bowlens decision to trade him. I understand he was ticked off about being lied to and about the team on one hand having him come in and work on the playbook and on the other hand try to replace him, but the professional thing to do would have been to work it out.

Steve Yzerman was pissed off when there was talk about trading him, and I wouldn't call him childish, I think it is very natural to react when you are lied to and you put in extra effort spending a lot of face to face time and then realize later through channels that the people you are working with have been lying to you about wanting you there and while you have been coming in they have been working to get rid of you.

That he came in every day before the offseason opened up to work on the playbook clearly demonstrates that he wanted to be with the team and he was willing to work hard to be good. So claiming that he didn't want to be a Bronco and claiming he thought he was perfect is just downright false.

Cutler clearly has faults, his unwillingness to work it out is one, he seems to have listened too much to Bus Cook which is another. But it is clear that he wanted to work at his game and stories out of Chicago all seem to support that he is willing to improve and spend more time than required at working on his game.

I think Kaylore is correct that Cutler didn't like the criticism that McD gave.

elsid13
07-12-2009, 08:41 AM
I think Kaylore is correct that Cutler didn't like the criticism that McD gave.

I also think that McDaniels didn't like hearing how Bates and Shanahan would have run some plays or did things. The bottom line is that both Cutler and McDaniels are very proud individuals that don't like be told what to do. I have strange feeling that both overreact when comes to perceived slights

Blueflame
07-12-2009, 10:35 AM
I think Kaylore is correct that Cutler didn't like the criticism that McD gave.

I disagree... I think he had no idea that trade talks even might happen and the whole "listening" to ways of acquiring Cassel totally blindsided him at a time when he'd been doing everything possible (on his own time) to get a headstart on learning a playbook/offensive scheme that he now will never use. McDaniels allowed him to waste time that he could have been spending with family or having fun... and all the while was actively considering trading him. In his place I'd have been pissed off too.

Popps
07-12-2009, 11:23 AM
I In his place I'd have been pissed off too.

Cool.

Be pissed, then grow up... and do your job.

He couldn't, and that says a lot.

Blueflame
07-12-2009, 11:42 AM
Cool.

Be pissed, then grow up... and do your job.

He couldn't, and that says a lot.

He wanted a change of scenery... big deal. Lots of pro athletes change addresses in this day and age of free agency. While I'd have liked to see him remain a Bronco because I still believe he'll mature into one of the league's top QB's... I don't hate him for not liking the way the front office handled everything. No grudges held here...