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View Full Version : BETTER POLL: Will the Broncos be better or worse than last year?


BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 12:42 PM
This is a better version of ibleedoranegandblue's current poll floating around ... (better in my opinion anyway).

Let's try again, here is his initial post, with my own more poll choices:

With the schedule we have I dont think anyone is thinking we will be 14-2, but since there is a big debate here on the mane of We will suck vs. McDaniels is a Genius

I figured we could all officially take sides now and at the end of the season we can see who was right.

Fair enough ... his words, my choices.

TheReverend
07-02-2009, 12:47 PM
Subbing so I can be notified when bumped.

NFLBRONCO
07-02-2009, 12:52 PM
This is tough in a way because so much unknown everywhere on this team. My deciding factor goes to weak front 7 and new O tough schedule 7 of less wins in 2009.

Only way I could see 8 plus wins is Orton plays like 05 Plummer in this offense in his first year. D although weak plays better. This team must stay healthy.

broncocalijohn
07-02-2009, 12:56 PM
I look at the tough schedule to see that 8 and 8 would be tough. If we hit better than that, then McDaniel is a genius.

Flex Gunmetal
07-02-2009, 12:57 PM
16-0 A Ef See Westinghouse Detachment Conquerors! Soopurr Boal!

Dukes
07-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Better in record? No. I think the team will be "better" in the sense they won't give up 50+ points when the season is on the line, and better in the sense they won't fizzle the last half of the season.

TonyR
07-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Marginally better team, marginally worse record.

TailgateNut
07-02-2009, 01:02 PM
This is a better version of ibleedoranegandblue's current poll floating around ... (better in my opinion anyway).

Let's try again, here is his initial post, with my own more poll choices:



Fair enough ... his words, my choices.

Do we have any injuries during camp?
Does BM get traded, injured by a wrapper, or arrested?
Is our defense a sieve?
Does the curse of the striped socks hit us hard?

summerdenver
07-02-2009, 01:17 PM
This is very easy Buff. I don't think we will win 8 games this year.

Edit: TaigateNut raises a good point. I voted we will be 7 win or worse team even if we don't have any catastrophic injuries and BMarsh is not traded. I have a feeling that this thread will be bumped in mid season so I also want to add this prediction. Some where in the middle of the 4 game streak against NE, PIT, BAL, SD i fully expect Kyle Orton to be benched i.e. if he is not already injured ........

OBF1
07-02-2009, 01:20 PM
If we do not win 8 games does not mean we are not better that last year. We will know the results after some games have been played, not before training camp.

Lolad
07-02-2009, 01:25 PM
I think what should be included in this poll is "what were your expectations for this season before shanahan was fire" guarantee it would be more the 10 wins playoffs

Irish Stout
07-02-2009, 01:26 PM
Two words that make us a better team - Manuel McCree.

I love orange kool-aid. I think that the more under rated we are by the media, the better our team will be.... this year we will be super-tastic.

broncswin
07-02-2009, 01:29 PM
I think what should be included in this poll is "what were your expectations for this season before shanahan was fire" guarantee it would be more the 10 wins playoffs

The same **** that we have watched the last two years...cutty thrown the ball all over the place and our d giving up points all over the place:yayaya:

DBroncos4life
07-02-2009, 01:42 PM
If we don't have Marshall I don't see how we can win 8 games.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 02:01 PM
I look at the tough schedule to see that 8 and 8 would be tough. If we hit better than that, then McDaniel is a genius.

Yeah, I suppose ... but he's already a quasi-genius, offensively anyway. We know he can strategize/implement a winning offense.

So i think if we hit more than 8 wins, more credit should go to Mike Nolan and the offensive players for studying and learning this complicated offense in such a short time.
We'll see.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 02:06 PM
The same **** that we have watched the last two years...cutty thrown the ball all over the place and our d giving up points all over the place:yayaya:

But but but ...... I thought it was Cutler's fault we failed at the end last year!! Remember, Cutler drank too much and "choked away" the season? :::)

Nuts nuts nuts. One thing is for damn sure, Jay-haters are insane, Cutler did his job and then some last year. Hard to fault the quarterback for goalline offense failures (except tha bad handoff vs. Fade). Cuts was like 12-2 when the defense gives up 21 or fewer. That says it all.

Cutler will prove himself again - or not - this year and in the coming years.

bfoflcommish
07-02-2009, 02:07 PM
7-9 or worse would have been my expectation even keeping shanny and cutler.

Inkana7
07-02-2009, 02:08 PM
Their record will most likely be worse, but the team will actually be better. We won't suffer humiliating losses.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 02:08 PM
7-9 or worse would have been my expectation even keeping shanny and cutler.

I take it because of Slowick? I'll buy that.

bfoflcommish
07-02-2009, 02:10 PM
I take it because of Slowick? I'll buy that.


and schedule

Taco John
07-02-2009, 02:13 PM
I don't think Brandon Marshall is going to play as a Bronco this year, which makes 8-8 less believable that it otherwise would have been. Orton has to throw to someone. If we can replace Marshall some way, some how with an Anquan Boldin, I'd say at least 8-8. Otherwise, 8 wins seems very lofty, if not pie-in-the-sky.

Difficult to vote in this poll, but I'm voting under because I've heard that Brandon Marshall simply is not going to play in a Denver uni again, period.

TheDave
07-02-2009, 02:18 PM
I don't think Brandon Marshall is going to play as a Bronco this year, which makes 8-8 less believable that it otherwise would have been. Orton has to throw to someone. If we can replace Marshall some way, some how with an Anquan Boldin, I'd say at least 8-8. Otherwise, 8 wins seems very lofty, if not pie-in-the-sky.

Difficult to vote in this poll, but I'm voting under because I've heard that Brandon Marshall simply is not going to play in a Denver uni again, period.

Please tell me you're joking... Have these guys really gone this nuts?

TonyR
07-02-2009, 02:20 PM
...I've heard that Brandon Marshall simply is not going to play in a Denver uni again, period.

Simply? Yes, it is somewhat simple I guess. If he wants to get paid he'll have no choice unless he gets traded. And the only way he gets traded is if Denver gives him away because they're not getting a 1st and 3rd for him.

You may need to elaborate on what you're heard.

TonyR
07-02-2009, 02:23 PM
...Have these guys really gone this nuts?

These guys? If BM doesn't play for Denver this year it won't be because the Denver FO doesn't want him to.

Here's the question for you to answer. If BM won't negotiate in good faith with the Broncos, won't report for camp, and expresses that he won't play for the team, would you prefer they trade him or play hard ball with him?

rbackfactory80
07-02-2009, 02:23 PM
Their record will most likely be worse, but the team will actually be better. We won't suffer humiliating losses.



Exactly, more competitive.

TheDave
07-02-2009, 02:28 PM
These guys? If BM doesn't play for Denver this year it won't be because the Denver FO doesn't want him to.

Here's the question for you to answer. If BM won't negotiate in good faith with the Broncos, won't report for camp, and expresses that he won't play for the team, would you prefer they trade him or play hard ball with him?

Play hardball... If he wants to hold out, let him.

It's what we should have done with Cutler.

You don't just trade away talent like BMarsh and Cutler.

and before you ask I don't trade Clady either if he asks for a raise in a couple of seasons.

Br0nc0Buster
07-02-2009, 02:32 PM
I don't think Brandon Marshall is going to play as a Bronco this year, which makes 8-8 less believable that it otherwise would have been. Orton has to throw to someone. If we can replace Marshall some way, some how with an Anquan Boldin, I'd say at least 8-8. Otherwise, 8 wins seems very lofty, if not pie-in-the-sky.

Difficult to vote in this poll, but I'm voting under because I've heard that Brandon Marshall simply is not going to play in a Denver uni again, period.

Bullpoo

I say 8-8 or 9-7
Tougher schedule, but better overall team
washes out

Taco John
07-02-2009, 02:34 PM
Simply? Yes, it is somewhat simple I guess. If he wants to get paid he'll have no choice unless he gets traded. And the only way he gets traded is if Denver gives him away because they're not getting a 1st and 3rd for him.

You may need to elaborate on what you're heard.


What I've heard is that Brandon Marshall doesn't want to take a paycheck from Denver, period. But don't take my word for it. You can see it yourself. Every action this guy takes says "I'm out of here." He's ready to walk, and has absolutely no intention of playing in a Broncos uni again.

Do the math. Why would McDaniels want this in his locker room? Just come and play, you're under contract? Marshall hasn't bought in, and isn't buying in. Hence, you can see the Broncos softening their "no trade" stance. McDaniels system won't permit someone who hasn't bought it. This is all or nothing here. It's the biggest strength and the biggest weakness of the system. Unfortunately, he doesn't appear to have the wisdom and/or experience to pull it off.

Brandon Marshall is not going to be a Bronco next year. HOPEFULLY he's the last star that we lose, but I've heard this thing might come in three's (though the information I've got on that aspect is still pretty hazy).

Taco John
07-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Play hardball... If he wants to hold out, let him.

It's what we should have done with Cutler.

You don't just trade away talent like BMarsh and Cutler.

and before you ask I don't trade Clady either if he asks for a raise in a couple of seasons.


I can appreciate what you're saying - but that wouldn't have worked either (IMO). The only way that would have worked is with a veteran team as your core, who can bring the immature guy to his senses and get him to buy in.

Shanahan was rebuilding, and our core was a very young one. The choice to saddle a young, immature team with a young, immature coach who is trying to install a sophisticated system while changing the culture of the organization produced about what you could expect.

TheDave
07-02-2009, 02:46 PM
I can appreciate what you're saying - but that wouldn't have worked either (IMO). The only way that would have worked is with a veteran team as your core, who can bring the immature guy to his senses and get him to buy in.

Shanahan was rebuilding, and our core was a very young one. The choice to saddle a young, immature team with a young, immature coach who is trying to install a sophisticated system while changing the culture of the organization produced about what you could expect.

Both the Bengals and the Cards have been playing hardball with their respective recievers... and to varing degrees of success it has worked.

We need to figure out a way of keeping this kid in the fold. Unless some other team is willing to trade a similiarly young/talented defensive player... Marshall must stay.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 02:46 PM
Taco, sounds like you're predicting an Ashley Lelie type stance. Hard to see that for me ...

cousinal11
07-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Come in 3's? Can't be Clady. Must be Champ. But, I thought he hated Cutler.

FireFly
07-02-2009, 03:30 PM
Their record will most likely be worse, but the team will actually be better. We won't suffer humiliating losses.

This is my opinion as well.

If we could get 9 wins and be competitive every week I'd be really happy.

Blueflame
07-02-2009, 03:38 PM
What I've heard is that Brandon Marshall doesn't want to take a paycheck from Denver, period. But don't take my word for it. You can see it yourself. Every action this guy takes says "I'm out of here." He's ready to walk, and has absolutely no intention of playing in a Broncos uni again.

Do the math. Why would McDaniels want this in his locker room? Just come and play, you're under contract? Marshall hasn't bought in, and isn't buying in. Hence, you can see the Broncos softening their "no trade" stance. McDaniels system won't permit someone who hasn't bought it. This is all or nothing here. It's the biggest strength and the biggest weakness of the system. Unfortunately, he doesn't appear to have the wisdom and/or experience to pull it off.

Brandon Marshall is not going to be a Bronco next year. HOPEFULLY he's the last star that we lose, but I've heard this thing might come in three's (though the information I've got on that aspect is still pretty hazy).

Deja vu... this is precisely what we already saw earlier in the offseason with Jay....

Hogan11
07-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Come in 3's? Can't be Clady. Must be Champ. But, I thought he hated Cutler.

It'll be Tony Scheffler

ZachKC
07-02-2009, 04:24 PM
Their record will most likely be worse, but the team will actually be better. We won't suffer humiliating losses.

Why not?

Inkana7
07-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Why not?

The Inept defensive coaches and the trash of last years defense are gone. It took the regime change to realize just how ****ty Denver of 2007 and 2008 really was in terms of defense and attitude.

ZachKC
07-02-2009, 05:05 PM
The Inept defensive coaches and the trash of last years defense are gone. It took the regime change to realize just how ****ty Denver of 2007 and 2008 really was in terms of defense and attitude.

Maybe, but I don't think the change from this years team to last years team does much to avoid terrible losses....at all. You didn't do much of anything to the defensive line.

DenverBrit
07-02-2009, 05:15 PM
How is this a better poll?

Players haven't put on pads yet, the turnover is massive, we don't even know who is going to be on the team and the battle for the starting positions hasn't begun.

How could anyone predict how this team is going to play?? ???

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 05:19 PM
Vote's been running about 2-1 right down the line.

But wait .... Popps hasn't voted yet. What's up with that? hmmm...

tnedator
07-02-2009, 05:40 PM
Ok, well I posted this on BF in a moment of optimism a few days after the draft. It was before the Marshall situation came up, and if he doesn't play, then both my optimism and belief we can win the west goes way down.

Also, it appears I guessed wrong on the DE's, but my belief in McD's and Nolan's belief that we have the players they need for the front seven remains. Only time will tell if they are right, but I believe they feel they have players that can get the job done.

I am making the prediction early, before the camps.
The Broncos will win the AFC West with an 8-8 or 9-7 record.

Now, why do I come to this conclusion following the ups and downs of the draft weekend? Several reasons.

First, the fact that the Broncos did not go into the draft with an aggressive plan to beef up the front 7 tells me that they are either incompetent, building for future years, or already believe the front 7 can win this year. I am leaning towards the third option.

Second, the moves made during the draft did not appear to be panicked moves, or moves to fill a position at any cost. Again, this brings us to incompetent, building for the future or feeling they are ready to win.
So, with that out of the way, and after going through the "this guy must thinks he's a genius, but out of touch with reality", phase, I took another look at things.

Offense:
We had a very good offense, sans a go to RB. The off season moves were to bring in three free agent, solid backs, to go with Hillis and Torrain. That did a solid job of solidifying the running game, but probably didn't make it dynamic.

Then, we trade Jay for Orton, which would appear to be a fair drop off in talent, but real question isn't about physical talent differences, but what the drop in production will become under Orton vs. Cutler.

Now, since McDaniels runs a spread/ball control offense, relying heavily on one and two tight end sets for QB protection and run blocking and three or four wide receivers, which relies on an intelligent QB that can make pre-snap reads and excel in the short medium pass game, it is a 'system' that Orton 'could' succeed in. Talking heads like Peter King of SI, have said that McDaniels really wanted Orton and feels so good about him that they did not even consider trying to get Sanchez.

So, we have one of the best lines in the league, one of the best blocking tight ends in the league, a new young blocking tight end, and three very solid WR's (Marshall, Royal and Stokely) and possibly Scheffler out of the tight end and slot positions.

All the pieces in place, but having to rely on an RBBC. First pick is Moreno, a player that could come in and make an immediate impact. Capable of playing on all three downs, including having very good receiving skill for third down catches. He can run between the tackles, and MOST important he is a good pass blocker which is critical in a one back set with a QB that might just need a little extra time.

What I see is an offense that should be able to both move the ball, but more importantly do it in a methodical, time eating manner --- ball control offense.

Then we turn to the defense. Man, weren't we supposed to fix the front seven? Guess not.

Let's take dogs approach and start at the back. Champ is champ. We picked up a solid starting CB to start opposite of him. In addition, we picked up a mean, hard hitting safety in Hawkins. Finally, we picked up someone that I didn't know in much more than name, Renaldo Hill. I initially read some questionable stuff about him, especially related to his range and age. However. last week listening to Sirius NFL, they were recounting a discussion with the Miami DC or HC. They talked about how Hill was beat out in training camp by a younger guy, and the D struggled for a few games, and they put Hill back in, and the defense picked up dramatically and the coach credits hills play for turning the D around. This was being retold talking to a Miami caller, when the hosts were telling the fan that Miami had some big shoes to fill in Hill.

So, the more I read about our various players, I see we should have a solid secondary. Using the build from the back philosophy that Dog described that Nolan uses.

Then, the draft comes, and we pay dearly for a nickel DB, that if he can win a spot, could have an immediate impact when we are playing teams like Indy and NE. Then we bring in a safety with mixed reviews, but is supposed to be ball hawk. He might only be depth, or he might play in three safety, big nickel type packages.

Now we move forward. The front seven. The 800 pound gorilla in the room. Why did McDaniels ignore the biggest need on draft day. Did he?
McD had made a case that he felt they addressed the front in FA. So, what do we have.

The number one question is do we have a nose tackle. The leading contender would have to be free agent Fields, however he hasn't started since '07. It could also be Thomas, although he is a bit light for the position. A very long shot could be UFDA Baker winning that position battle.
We will go the most conservative route. Fields becomes the nose tackle. An adequate nosetackle doesn't have to get penetration, just tie up 650 lbs of a center and guard. We will assume he can do this.

So, with Fields at nose tackle, we have Thomas and ayers at the two end positions, with Peterson/Powell replacing ayers, or in a four men rotation at end.

They are big enough and good enough athletes to play ends in the 3-4.
Now, linebacker. The inside is solid with DJ and Davis, with Larsen and possibly woodyard for depth. That leaves the only real question is how effectively will our four light ends be at transferring to OLB.

Dumerville will obviously have the highest expectation to make the move and should have the skills to do so. Opposite him, the best option is the special teams specialist, Reid Rotating with them, or competing for the job is Crowder and Moss, and of course Boss Bailey will be in the mix as either another option inside, or as an undersized OLB.

So, when you piece it all together, our offense should be less explosive than last year, but has the potential to be more of a ball control offense, and likely a better red zone offense. By being more ball control, and not going for the deep ball as often, the turnovers should be reduced.

Moreno and Quinn make the offense at least as productive as last year' (points and TOP, not necessarily total yards) offense. That ball contrrol offense and longer TOP, means the defense has more time to rest between series.

Our secondary has seen a clear upgrade, and if Smith can start day one as the nickel back, then our secondary should be a significant upgrade over last year.

That brings us back to the front seven.

Can a front seven of Ayers/Powell, Fields, Thomas up front, and Reid/Moss, Davis, DJ, Dumervil succeed in their new 3-4 roles?

The more I have read, looked at the roster, listened to the pressers, read articles about various players, etc., I think that Nolan can put together a solid 3-4 front seven with the combination of players previously on the roster, plus FA's and those drafted.

We have about 9 guys with the physical skills and talent, and while they will need to make some adjustments, like dumervill dropping into coverage, I think they have the coaching staff to teach them.

So, I am officially making the early prediction that we will win the AFC West with a .500 or just over .500 record.

tnedator
07-02-2009, 05:45 PM
Play hardball... If he wants to hold out, let him.

It's what we should have done with Cutler.

You don't just trade away talent like BMarsh and Cutler.

and before you ask I don't trade Clady either if he asks for a raise in a couple of seasons.

Hey, I think this is the second time I have agreed with you. Frightening.

Agreed, in both cases, the Broncos had all the leverage. More than likely the Cutler trade will be brought up for years as a huge mistake, but only time will tell.

With Marshall, the Broncos have all the leverage. He needs two more years of service to become a free agent (depending on what happens with the new CBA, of course). If he holds out, he will loose the vast majority of his salary, and will need to come back by week 10 or 11 to get a year of service, then will have to do it all over again next year as a restricted free agent.

Marshall is worth more to the Broncos as a Bronco then they will get in value from a trade.

TonyR
07-02-2009, 06:00 PM
What I've heard is that Brandon Marshall doesn't want to take a paycheck from Denver, period. But don't take my word for it. You can see it yourself. Every action this guy takes says "I'm out of here." He's ready to walk, and has absolutely no intention of playing in a Broncos uni again.

Do the math. Why would McDaniels want this in his locker room? Just come and play, you're under contract? Marshall hasn't bought in, and isn't buying in. Hence, you can see the Broncos softening their "no trade" stance. McDaniels system won't permit someone who hasn't bought it. This is all or nothing here. It's the biggest strength and the biggest weakness of the system. Unfortunately, he doesn't appear to have the wisdom and/or experience to pull it off.

Brandon Marshall is not going to be a Bronco next year. HOPEFULLY he's the last star that we lose, but I've heard this thing might come in three's (though the information I've got on that aspect is still pretty hazy).

Interesting info. Certainly believable and I have no reason to doubt it.

I quoted the part I did because I'm not sure what you're suggesting they should do or should have done. If the guy doesn't want to be here he doesn't want to be here. Unless they can get value for him, which I don't think they even remotely can, I think the only option is to hold him hostage and hope they can work something out. BM will have no alternative but to show up and play if he wants to get paid.

TonyR
07-02-2009, 06:01 PM
Marshall is worth more to the Broncos as a Bronco then they will get in value from a trade.

Absolutely true, assuming he's healthy and not suspended. I don't think this will be resolved any time soon. There should be no hurry to take any action in any direction on Denver's part.

Br0nc0Buster
07-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Maybe, but I don't think the change from this years team to last years team does much to avoid terrible losses....at all. You didn't do much of anything to the defensive line.

yeah coaching has nothing to do with wins and losses......

UberBroncoMan
07-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Without a doubt 7-9 or worse.

Look at our schedule...

Also for the people so delusional that they bring up the Miami Dolphins turn around. Miami had the EASIEST SCHEDULE IN THE NFL LAST YEAR!

We on the other hand have one of the hardest... easily top 3.

Assuming Kyle Orton isn't a pile of **** and we resign him, I think we'll definitely be a force in 2010... but not this year.

summerdenver
07-02-2009, 06:23 PM
But but but ...... I thought it was Cutler's fault we failed at the end last year!! Remember, Cutler drank too much and "choked away" the season? :::)

Cuts was like 12-2 when the defense gives up 21 or fewer.

Actually it is 13-1 i believe. The only loss is the MNF against GB where offense did not see the ball in OT. But I digress back to the topic.

summerdenver
07-02-2009, 06:24 PM
Without a doubt 7-9 or worse.

We on the other hand have one of the hardest... easily top 3.


We have 19th ranked(among 32) schedule this year .....

summerdenver
07-02-2009, 06:27 PM
What I've heard is that Brandon Marshall doesn't want to take a paycheck from Denver, period.

I am just curious why such a sudden and drastic change of heart? He seemed very positive in the nfl netwrok interview after Jay was traded.

summerdenver
07-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Come in 3's? Can't be Clady. Must be Champ. But, I thought he hated Cutler.

I speculate Scheff .....

BroncoBuff
07-02-2009, 08:09 PM
Cutler was like 12-2 when the defense gives up 21 or fewer. That says it all.

Cutler will prove himself again - or not - this year and in the coming years.Actually it is 13-1 I believe. The only loss is the MNF against GB where offense did not see the ball in OT. But I digress back to the topic.

Try telling this to the Kool-Aid crowd ... I wonder about the records of other QBs when their opponents score 21 or less?

13-1 is pretty amazing, obviously .... but of course the Jay-haters will find some why this stat "doesn't mean anything." And absent that, they'll just collapse down into a pol of "Jayhadagreatlineandgreatrecievers," and "Itwasn'tCutleralone" ... :~ohyah!:

tnedator
07-03-2009, 12:37 AM
Try telling this to the Kool-Aid crowd ... I wonder about the records of other QBs when their opponents score 21 or less?

13-1 is pretty amazing, obviously .... but of course the Jay-haters will find some why this stat "doesn't mean anything." And absent that, they'll just collapse down into a pol of "Jayhadagreatlineandgreatrecievers," and "Itwasn'tCutleralone" ... :~ohyah!:

Didn't Orton have an even higher win percentage in the same situation? I saw it compared a couple months ago and thought Orton was similar or better, but can't remember for sure.

broncofan7
07-03-2009, 07:01 AM
4-5 wins and a QB change in our bye week as McD struggles to get more production from his offense...meanwhile in KC, Thigpen comes in for Cassel and the Chiefs fortunes skyrocket--all the way to 7 wins and 2nd place in the AFC west........Cassel and McD unite in 2010--only for both be sent packing after another dismal showing (losing season)--Kubes in 2011. book it.

broncofan7
07-03-2009, 07:08 AM
Try telling this to the Kool-Aid crowd ... I wonder about the records of other QBs when their opponents score 21 or less?

13-1 is pretty amazing, obviously .... but of course the Jay-haters will find some why this stat "doesn't mean anything." And absent that, they'll just collapse down into a pol of "Jayhadagreatlineandgreatrecievers," and "Itwasn'tCutleralone" ... :~ohyah!:

I honestly wonder what their mantra wil be during the season when Chicago wins 10-11 games and reaches the playoffs while we are debating starting Brandstater as our 4-12, 5-11 season comes to a merciful end......"Cutler isn't a franchise QB--doesn't even have a winning record" CHECK--"Cutler isn't a leader--he cannot lead his team to the playoffs"--CHECK---I posted a comparison to Peyton Manning's 2001 season when he played for a defense as horrid as the one that Cutler has played with the past 2 seasons--and guess what--The GREAT Peyton Manning had a losing record. With Chicago's defense causing turnovers and their ST's giving Jay short fields to work with--look out. I expect CHI to be battling GB for the division title (I think that Minny will struggle with the Favre BS)

BMarsh615
07-03-2009, 07:14 AM
There is no way in hell we win more than 7 games.

tnedator
07-03-2009, 09:22 AM
There is no way in hell we win more than 7 games.

Well, since we aren't in hell, I guess the Broncos have a chance to win >7 games ;)

BroncoBuff
07-03-2009, 02:04 PM
I honestly wonder what their mantra wil be during the season when Chicago wins 10-11 games and reaches the playoffs while we are debating starting Brandstater as our 4-12, 5-11 season comes to a merciful end......"Cutler isn't a franchise QB--doesn't even have a winning record" CHECK--"Cutler isn't a leader--he cannot lead his team to the playoffs"--CHECK---I posted a comparison to Peyton Manning's 2001 season when he played for a defense as horrid as the one that Cutler has played with the past 2 seasons--and guess what--The GREAT Peyton Manning had a losing record. With Chicago's defense causing turnovers and their ST's giving Jay short fields to work with--look out. I expect CHI to be battling GB for the division title (I think that Minny will struggle with the Favre BS)

Lots of truth there. Guess we'll just have to muddle forward.

Still ... it still seems like a bad dream sometimes.


Didn't Orton have an even higher win percentage in the same situation? I saw it compared a couple months ago and thought Orton was similar or better, but can't remember for sure.
How can you nave a HIGHER winning pctr than that?

I seriously doubt Orton has lost just one game ever when the opponent score 21 or less ... their defense is too good for that, they hold teams under 21 fairly often.

BroncoBuff
07-03-2009, 02:07 PM
HEY ... POPPS STILL HASN'T VOTED!

Somebody please let him know, alert him. His voice simply MUST be heard on this crucial issue as we move forward.

tnedator
07-03-2009, 02:19 PM
How can you nave a HIGHER winning pctr than that?

I seriously doubt Orton has lost just one game ever when the opponent score 21 or less ... their defense is too good for that, they hold teams under 21 fairly often.

Orton was 15-1 when the defense held the opponent under 20, and 6-11 when the defense allowed 20+ points.

There is a 2 point differential though, as Orton's stats or 19 or lower, and what you quoted for Cutler was 21 or lower, so I am not sure how they compare if using the same defensive points given up threshold.

BroncoBuff
07-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Orton was 15-1 when the defense held the opponent under 20, and 6-11 when the defense allowed 20+ points.

There is a 2 point differential though, as Orton's stats or 19 or lower, and what you quoted for Cutler was 21 or lower, so I am not sure how they compare if using the same defensive points given up threshold.

Interesting, and impressive for Orton. I wonder if league-wide - every game - how often teams that score under 21 win. Defense obviously means so much more to wins and losses than we usually give them credit for. The spotlight is always on the quarterback and offense, but like they say, defense wins championships.

And yes, 19 or under is different that 21 or under, but the totals are about the same either way.

I got the 21 or under as second hand information from summer and others. summerdenver or anybody have the exact numbers there?

Spider
07-04-2009, 08:57 AM
8-8 or better ..........

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 11:33 AM
The bottom line to me is all this crying over the changes are like little kids crying over losing their lost doll-babies.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 11:43 AM
4-5 wins and a QB change in our bye week as McD struggles to get more production from his offense...meanwhile in KC, Thigpen comes in for Cassel and the Chiefs fortunes skyrocket--all the way to 7 wins and 2nd place in the AFC west........Cassel and McD unite in 2010--only for both be sent packing after another dismal showing (losing season)--Kubes in 2011. book it.

Sure, book it, baby. :rofl:

Rohirrim
07-04-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm still sticking with 4 and 12. :pity:

Spider
07-04-2009, 11:51 AM
Meh ....... the players in the glory spots have changed , but the role players are still solid ........

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 11:55 AM
I honestly wonder what their mantra wil be during the season when Chicago wins 10-11 games and reaches the playoffs while we are debating starting Brandstater as our 4-12, 5-11 season comes to a merciful end......"Cutler isn't a franchise QB--doesn't even have a winning record" CHECK--"Cutler isn't a leader--he cannot lead his team to the playoffs"--CHECK---I posted a comparison to Peyton Manning's 2001 season when he played for a defense as horrid as the one that Cutler has played with the past 2 seasons--and guess what--The GREAT Peyton Manning had a losing record. With Chicago's defense causing turnovers and their ST's giving Jay short fields to work with--look out. I expect CHI to be battling GB for the division title (I think that Minny will struggle with the Favre BS)

"their" mantra being denver broncos fans? or fans of players that dont want to play for the denver broncos?

what if cutler fizzles out, starts yelling at his horrible WR and oline, and OC for not giving him enough attempts, or refusing to accept responsibility for when he plays bad?

no one is doubting cutler is good, better than orton for sure, but he is gone, no longer a denver bronco and that was his choice and his choice alone. orton is here (not by his choosing but you know hes excited to be here in an offense that fits his skillsets) and hes the guy i want to succeed, i hope cutler gets destroyed so we get a higher first round pick next year and his reputation goes to crap. i dont know what team you are rooting for.

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 11:58 AM
anyways, my prediction:
broncos play better than they did last year (less 30pt blowouts) but it may not show in the wins dept. they may not win a ton of games 6-9 wins is the range i imagine, but they will be more competitive in their losses. dont really know what to expect from the offense, i imagine a powerful run game with a healthy dose of eddie royal on the side. mcdaniels is a very very good offensive coach and will gameplan around the weaknesses of the offense.

broncofan7
07-04-2009, 12:01 PM
"their" mantra being denver broncos fans? or fans of players that dont want to play for the denver broncos?

what if cutler fizzles out, starts yelling at his horrible WR and oline, and OC for not giving him enough attempts, or refusing to accept responsibility for when he plays bad?

no one is doubting cutler is good, better than orton for sure, but he is gone, no longer a denver bronco and that was his choice and his choice alone. orton is here (not by his choosing but you know hes excited to be here in an offense that fits his skillsets) and hes the guy i want to succeed, i hope cutler gets destroyed so we get a higher first round pick next year and his reputation goes to crap. i dont know what team you are rooting for.

Take off your orange tinted glasses ---listen to Sirius NFL radio every now and then, go read a football preview magazine or two--then come back and post your apology for questioning my fandom. Or better yet--come back and revisit this post around our bye week and then again at the end of the season and offer up your apology then.

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 12:04 PM
Take off your orange tinted glasses ---listen to Sirius NFL radio every now and then, go read a football preview magazine or two--then come back and post your apology for questioning my fandom. Or better yet--come back and revisit this post around our bye week and then again at the end of the season and offer up your apology then.

will you still be supporting the broncos at that time, or will you have moved on? you bitch and moan and cry about how bad this team is gonna be, but the problem is, what if they arent? what will you do then? act like you never cried this entire offseason?

Spider
07-04-2009, 12:06 PM
anyways, my prediction:
broncos play better than they did last year (less 30pt blowouts) but it may not show in the wins dept. they may not win a ton of games 6-9 wins is the range i imagine, but they will be more competitive in their losses. dont really know what to expect from the offense, i imagine a powerful run game with a healthy dose of eddie royal on the side. mcdaniels is a very very good offensive coach and will gameplan around the weaknesses of the offense.

dammit .......I really dont like you ,but I agree with you on this thread..........So I have nothing mean to say to you ....... That sucks

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 12:08 PM
dammit .......I really dont like you ,but I agree with you on this thread..........So I have nothing mean to say to you ....... That sucks

suck it you hillbilly biatch!

there, now you can say something mean, old fart.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 12:12 PM
will you still be supporting the broncos at that time, or will you have moved on? you b**** and moan and cry about how bad this team is gonna be, but the problem is, what if they arent? what will you do then? act like you never cried this entire offseason?

I think that will be the case.

broncofan7
07-04-2009, 12:16 PM
will you still be supporting the broncos at that time, or will you have moved on? you b**** and moan and cry about how bad this team is gonna be, but the problem is, what if they arent? what will you do then? act like you never cried this entire offseason?

Eat a big plate of Internet board crow as I did on the Eddie Royal pick after week 1 last season (I wanted DeSean Jackson). But I am hedging my bets that,as is the case most of the time, I am right on this one. Too many factors point toward this season being nothing but a failure---We had 2 severe areas of weakness heading into the offseason, now perhaps our entire team is below average. And all at the direction of a 32 year old coach who has not only never run an oraganization before, but who has never even been a HC before. If we have a winning record this year I would be ecstatic.

TheDave
07-04-2009, 12:19 PM
"their" mantra being denver broncos fans? or fans of players that dont want to play for the denver broncos?

what if cutler fizzles out, starts yelling at his horrible WR and oline, and OC for not giving him enough attempts, or refusing to accept responsibility for when he plays bad?

no one is doubting cutler is good, better than orton for sure, but he is gone, no longer a denver bronco and that was his choice and his choice alone. orton is here (not by his choosing but you know hes excited to be here in an offense that fits his skillsets) and hes the guy i want to succeed, i hope cutler gets destroyed so we get a higher first round pick next year and his reputation goes to crap. i dont know what team you are rooting for.

I will never accept what the Broncos did trading Cutler as a good move... Even if he implodes. IMO it was a TERRIBLE idea at the time of the trade.

...BUT...

What you say there about him struggling in Chicago is a real possibility. He has gone from one of the more talented squads with some of the best coaching and game planning he will ever experience to nearly the exact opposite. With his well documented on-field outbursts and the "mopey Jay" antics that bothered all of us, it is a real possibility he could blow a gasket by the middle of the season.

I still think they have enough defense talent, and with a relatively easy schedule they will probably still make the playoffs. Hopefully not, but I still expect to be on the clock at around #25 come draft day.

Spider
07-04-2009, 12:21 PM
suck it you hillbilly biatch!

there, now you can say something mean, old fart.
Suck it ? if you have a **** , you need to spit it out and give it back to the person it belongs to

footstepsfrom#27
07-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Wow...almost 2:1 favor us being worse off than last year. To listen to the board I figured it would be nearly reversed.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 12:29 PM
Wow...almost 2:1 favor us being worse off than last year. To listen to the board I figured it would be nearly reversed.

Exactly ... all the polls before were poorly worded, slanted toward what the thread-starter wanted the results to be.

But this poll is plain and simple, no low-brow nonsense: Just "Better" or "Worse."

And yes, the results stayed 2 to 1 since the first few votes. To be fair, 2010 is really the year to grade McD ...it wasn't all his fault Jay left, or that he inherited the worst defense in the league. We have to spot him one year.

summerdenver
07-04-2009, 12:30 PM
Orton was 15-1 when the defense held the opponent under 20, and 6-11 when the defense allowed 20+ points.

There is a 2 point differential though, as Orton's stats or 19 or lower, and what you quoted for Cutler was 21 or lower, so I am not sure how they compare if using the same defensive points given up threshold.

Dude i used to live near chicago during Orton's first year and I saw most of their games that year. Orton won two games in successive weeks where he threw for 60 yards, no TD and a interception each for good measure. This when teams were crowidng the box to stop the run. They also had younger Moose and Berrian as wideouts and strong OL with good run game. When Orton was pulled from the game on a sunday night game against Atl for Rex Grossman people cheered and celebrated like they just won a superbowl.

Orton is not very good as a QB and if he works out in denver it will be because of the ability of McDaniels to mold his system around inadequencies of QB.

Jays record when defense played well does not prove that he is great QB but it does tell us that he was not the problem with the Denver past few years and it was defense. It also tells that if you put team around him, you can win. Now McDaniels seems to think that he can win with anyone. I am skeptical but if he can win with Orton as his QB, he deserves all the leeway. I just don't see it hapenning.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 12:32 PM
ACTUALLY NO ... this poll is actually slanted toward the Kool-Aid drinkers, in that I gave 8-8 to the plus side ... meaning it's easier to vote "Better" than it is to vote "Worse." Much easier actually.

It should read "The Same or Better" - or - Worse.

And the results are still 2-1 ... wow.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Orton is not very good as a QB and if he works out in denver it will be because of the ability of McDaniels to mold his system around inadequencies of QB.

Exactly, well said. That is the dynamic at work here.

This might surprise many here, but I have every confidence McD can win with Orton in his system (eventually, 2010 and later).

It will be a lot like 2005 when Plummer was reigned in tightly - "No Mistake Jake," and we won 13.


Still ... they cheered for Rex Grossman? Ugh ....

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 12:48 PM
When Orton was pulled from the game on a sunday night game against Atl for Rex Grossman people cheered and celebrated like they just won a superbowl.

This is irrelevant. You want to know why? Because these are the same exact fans clamoring for Brian Griese to start a year or two ago.

Bronco fans told them, be careful what you wish for. They didn't listen until they saw that crap-fest first hand.

Point is, Chicago fans flip flop on QBs daily. Cheering for Rex doesn't make Kyle a bad QB.

boppool
07-04-2009, 12:53 PM
Marginally better team, marginally worse record.

I second that!

Spider
07-04-2009, 12:58 PM
I am a cool aid drinker , here is why , our oline , there is no way in hell people will convince me Montana or Bradshaw was a better qb then Elway , they had the better team , thats what we need , our line is one of the best , got some great prospects at RB , our defense remains to be seen , but they have to be a vast improvement over what we fielded last year ......

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 01:43 PM
ACTUALLY NO ... this poll is actually slanted toward the Kool-Aid drinkers, in that I gave 8-8 to the plus side ... meaning it's easier to vote "Better" than it is to vote "Worse." Much easier actually.

It should read "The Same or Better" - or - Worse.

And the results are still 2-1 ... wow.

I didn't vote because it's too early to determine.

We'll have to wait and see. TC hasn't started.

TheReverend
07-04-2009, 01:52 PM
I am a cool aid drinker , here is why , our oline , there is no way in hell people will convince me Montana or Bradshaw was a better qb then Elway , they had the better team , thats what we need , our line is one of the best , got some great prospects at RB , our defense remains to be seen , but they have to be a vast improvement over what we fielded last year ......

Please tell me I'm misinterpreting and that in no way shape or form are you even backhandedly comparing Orton to Montana or Bradshaw...

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 01:55 PM
Please tell me I'm misinterpreting and that in no way shape or form are you even backhandedly comparing Orton to Montana or Bradshaw...

no stupid, hes saying even good QBs can (and often do) beat a great QB if the good QB has a better supporting cast.

SoCalBronco
07-04-2009, 02:02 PM
no stupid, hes saying even good QBs can (and often do) beat a great QB if the good QB has a better supporting cast.

Ok....now get to the part where you explain how Orton is even a "good QB".

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 02:04 PM
no stupid, hes saying even good QBs can (and often do) beat a great QB if the good QB has a better supporting cast.

Statistically, isn't Orton among the lowest 10 starting QBs in the league? Our offense will not be better with him instead of Cutler... and if we lose Marshall as well, that's yet another strike the area (offense) that was our biggest strength last season.

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Statistically, isn't Orton among the lowest 10 starting QBs in the league? Our offense will not be better with him instead of Cutler... and if we lose Marshall as well, that's yet another strike the area (offense) that was our biggest strength last season.

The problem with this is that there will be no way to compare the two, truthfully. Because Cutler's offense with Shanny will (I assume) be much different than Orton's offense with McDaniels.

Of course, at their base, it's still throw, run, try to score. But I don't think we can really know who runs what offense better, considering the different coaches and different schemes, etc.

Spider
07-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Please tell me I'm misinterpreting and that in no way shape or form are you even backhandedly comparing Orton to Montana or Bradshaw...

No ,what I am doing is saying look at the Steelers in the 70's and Niners in the late 80's early 90's hell even throw in Ache-man and the Cowboys , none of those QB's were Elways Caliber , yet they dominated ..Why ? cause they had the better teams , thats what we need , a better team , McD understands this ......

Spider
07-04-2009, 02:10 PM
Ok....now get to the part where you explain how Orton is even a "good QB".

Orton isnt as bad as everyone makes him out ot be , I am not saying he is An Elway , but neither was Montana or Bradshaw ......... Some times hunters get what they call Buck Fever ,when they are in a bad spot . A QB gets almost the same thing with a wide open receiver in weak offense .. Lets see how orton does here

Spider
07-04-2009, 02:11 PM
The problem with this is that there will be no way to compare the two, truthfully. Because Cutler's offense with Shanny will (I assume) be much different than Orton's offense with McDaniels.

Of course, at their base, it's still throw, run, try to score. But I don't think we can really know who runs what offense better, considering the different coaches and different schemes, etc. you are correct but ........
We kept Turner and Dennison , so that tells me the running game will be the same

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 02:14 PM
you are correct but ........
We kept Turner and Dennison , so that tells me the running game will be the same

So what you're saying is Knowshon better run for around 2K?

I'm on board! :strong:

tnedator
07-04-2009, 02:15 PM
Dude i used to live near chicago during Orton's first year and I saw most of their games that year. Orton won two games in successive weeks where he threw for 60 yards, no TD and a interception each for good measure. This when teams were crowidng the box to stop the run. They also had younger Moose and Berrian as wideouts and strong OL with good run game. When Orton was pulled from the game on a sunday night game against Atl for Rex Grossman people cheered and celebrated like they just won a superbowl.

Orton is not very good as a QB and if he works out in denver it will be because of the ability of McDaniels to mold his system around inadequencies of QB.

Jays record when defense played well does not prove that he is great QB but it does tell us that he was not the problem with the Denver past few years and it was defense. It also tells that if you put team around him, you can win. Now McDaniels seems to think that he can win with anyone. I am skeptical but if he can win with Orton as his QB, he deserves all the leeway. I just don't see it hapenning.

You can't use essentially the same exact stat and state it proves one QB (Cutler would have won, but for a woeful defense) and another QB sucks and was carried by the defense. You can compare them by watching them play and other analysis, but don't state the same state means one thing for one QB and onother for the other.

I am not one of the people that is trying to make a case for Orton being as good as Cutler. If that was the case, then Chicago has the most inept front office in all of professional sports for trading two firsts and Orton for Cutler, if Orton is even close to as good a QB as Cutler.

However, that doesn't mean that Orton can't be successful in the right scheme. There have been plenty of QBs that weren't the most gifted athletes, that put on the right team and in the right scheme performed well.

Spider
07-04-2009, 02:17 PM
So what you're saying is Knowshon better run for around 2K?

I'm on board! :strong:
;D I dont see why he cant

footstepsfrom#27
07-04-2009, 02:17 PM
Point is, Chicago fans flip flop on QBs daily.
Well thank God we don't have THAT problem.

Hercules Rockefeller
07-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Despite what their record was, they were not 8-8 "good" last year, I said on more than 1 occasion before Shanahan was fired they wouldn't be 8-8 in '09 with him on the sidelines, and even if McDaniels is the Second Coming, he's not turning it around in a single offseason.

Where's my option for, they weren't a good team last year and they won't be any good this year either?

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Well thank God we don't have THAT problem.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/KenyonMartin/Ba-Zing.jpg

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 02:19 PM
This is irrelevant. You want to know why? Because these are the same exact fans clamoring for Brian Griese to start a year or two ago.

Bronco fans told them, be careful what you wish for. They didn't listen until they saw that crap-fest first hand.

Point is, Chicago fans flip flop on QBs daily. Cheering for Rex doesn't make Kyle a bad QB.

This is true.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 02:24 PM
Despite what their record was, they were not 8-8 "good" last year, I said on more than 1 occasion before Shanahan was fired they wouldn't be 8-8 in '09 with him on the sidelines, and even if McDaniels is the Second Coming, he's not turning it around in a single offseason.

Where's my option for, they weren't a good team last year and they won't be any good this year either?

I'll wait til I see the PS play.

lazarus4444
07-04-2009, 02:26 PM
I think what should be included in this poll is "what were your expectations for this season before shanahan was fire" guarantee it would be more the 10 wins playoffs

If shanny were still here along with his best friend the defensive co-ordinator then we would have been 4-12 with 6-10 being our best hope.:pimp: But, since we brought in fresh blood with energy and creativity then i would have to vote for at least 8-8 although i still think we're going 10-6 or 11-5.

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 02:31 PM
The problem with this is that there will be no way to compare the two, truthfully. Because Cutler's offense with Shanny will (I assume) be much different than Orton's offense with McDaniels.

Of course, at their base, it's still throw, run, try to score. But I don't think we can really know who runs what offense better, considering the different coaches and different schemes, etc.

My point is that (IMHO) our moves re: defense and special teams have been "sideways" moves; not a clear upgrade or downgrade... so we can pretty much expect more of the same from those two units. And we have a clear downgrade with the offense. This... coupled with a brutal schedule... is why the poll's going two to one in predicting that we'll have fewer than 8 wins in the '09 season.

Hercules Rockefeller
07-04-2009, 02:39 PM
My point is that (IMHO) our moves re: defense and special teams have been "sideways" moves; not a clear upgrade or downgrade...

Do you even watch this team Blue, or do you just post the first thing that pops in your head?

The differences between McDaniels' defensive coaching staff and Shanahan's is light years apart. McDaniels actually went out there and got guys (both FA and draft) who have exceled on special teams, not like Shanny in years past where he'd sign a single special teamer and tell us how that one guy would improve the unit. Add in that just about every, single defensive cut from last year is still not on an NFL roster, and yet you somehow think there's been no clear up grade on the defense or special teams?

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 02:40 PM
Statistically, isn't Orton among the lowest 10 starting QBs in the league? Our offense will not be better with him instead of Cutler... and if we lose Marshall as well, that's yet another strike the area (offense) that was our biggest strength last season.

No.

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 02:44 PM
Do you even watch this team Blue, or do you just post the first thing that pops in your head?

The differences between McDaniels' defensive coaching staff and Shanahan's is light years apart. McDaniels actually went out there and got guys (both FA and draft) who have exceled on special teams, not like Shanny in years past where he'd sign a single special teamer and tell us how that one guy would improve the unit. Add in that just about every, single defensive cut from last year is still not on an NFL roster, and yet you somehow think there's been no clear up grade on the defense or special teams?

The coaching changes mean potential for better performance; however, I was talking about the guys on the field. And the special teams unit hasn't performed really well in eons. As yet however, I do expect "more of the same" from defense and special teams. If I'm wrong, then I'll be very happy...

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 03:09 PM
Our offense will not be better with him instead of Cutler... and if we lose Marshall as well, that's yet another strike the area (offense) that was our biggest strength last season.

Good point ... people seem to have amnesia about the 2008 offense. We had almost zero running game compared to all 15 years before that. Cutler to Marshall was a huge chunk of our huge 2008 yardage total. That's a big hole that will have to be replaced. Easier said than done.

I could see a red zone offense improvement though ... a decent running gane will help, and I think McD will call Daniel Graham's number more often down there, which should help. I still don't understand why Mike didn't use DG more in the red zone. I'm saying that even not as a Graham homer ... he definitely is a red zone force.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Do you even watch this team Blue, or do you just post the first thing that pops in your head?

The differences between McDaniels' defensive coaching staff and Shanahan's is light years apart. McDaniels actually went out there and got guys (both FA and draft) who have exceled on special teams, not like Shanny in years past where he'd sign a single special teamer and tell us how that one guy would improve the unit. Add in that just about every, single defensive cut from last year is still not on an NFL roster, and yet you somehow think there's been no clear up grade on the defense or special teams?

That's pretty harsh. You talk about the DC change, but I think Blue would grant you Slowick wasn't up to the job.

What I took from her post - and I agree with - is that we made a lot of sideways PERSONNEL moves on defense. Look at Andre Goodman's histroy, he is not much better than Dre Bly, if at all. Like most people here, I didn't care much for John Englebereger, but no way Jose is Ryan McBean an upgrade ...not yet anyway. McBean was totally out of football last year. Not even a practice squad, even though he was PS-eligible.

And Ron Fields, again, no way is he an upgrade over Marcus Thomas or Dewayne Robertson, no way. Fields hasn't started a game in two years, and then he started half a season as an injury replacement only. And those were his only starts ever.

OLB same story ...we have no earthly idea how Elvis or Darrell Reid or Tim Crowder or Robert Ayers are gonna play .... none of them have ever played OLB before. Woodyard and DJ Williams were a much much better duo.

Now, safeties - of COURSE our safeties are now light years better. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to be worse than that pack of rejects.


Anyway, imo anyway, lots of these units are sideways or downgrades. Safety and maybe MLB are the only clear upgrades.

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 03:30 PM
That's pretty harsh. You talk about the DC change, but I think Blue would grant you Slowick wasn't up to the job.

What I took from her post - and I agree with - is that we made a lot of sideways PERSONNEL moves on defense. Look at Andre Goodman's histroy, he is not much better than Dre Bly, if at all. Like most people here, I didn't care much for John Englebereger, but no way Jose is Ryan McBean an upgrade ...not yet anyway. McBean was totally out of football last year. Not even a practice squad, even though he was PS-eligible.

And Ron Fields, again, no way is he an upgrade over Marcus Thomas or Dewayne Robertson, no way. Fields hasn't started a game in two years, and then he started half a season as an injury replacement only. And those were his only starts ever.

OLB same story ...we have no earthly idea how Elvis or Darrell Reid or Tim Crowder or Robert Ayers are gonna play .... none of them have ever played OLB before. Woodyard and DJ Williams were a much much better duo.

Now, safeties - of COURSE our safeties are now light years better. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to be worse than that pack of rejects.


Anyway, imo anyway, lots of these units are sideways or downgrades. Safety and maybe MLB are the only clear upgrades.

You're right, Buff... I've repeatedly stated that Slowik had to go even if that meant Shanny leaving too. McDaniels, as a rookie HC is nowhere near as confidence-inspiring to me as Shanahan; hence he is a downgrade at HC. You can't make up for inexperience with overconfidence and McDaniels has already been publicly schooled (pretty much humiliated and made a laughingstock) by his former mentor. He has a lot of learning to do and it remains to be seen if his ego will allow him to acknowledge that.

Dawkins is an upgrade... however, he is no longer in his prime and will not make much difference all by himself except in the "leadership" department.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 03:44 PM
Dude i used to live near chicago during Orton's first year and I saw most of their games that year. Orton won two games in successive weeks where he threw for 60 yards, no TD and a interception each for good measure. This when teams were crowidng the box to stop the run. They also had younger Moose and Berrian as wideouts and strong OL with good run game. When Orton was pulled from the game on a sunday night game against Atl for Rex Grossman people cheered and celebrated like they just won a superbowl.

Orton is not very good as a QB and if he works out in denver it will be because of the ability of McDaniels to mold his system around inadequencies of QB.

Jays record when defense played well does not prove that he is great QB but it does tell us that he was not the problem with the Denver past few years and it was defense. It also tells that if you put team around him, you can win. Now McDaniels seems to think that he can win with anyone. I am skeptical but if he can win with Orton as his QB, he deserves all the leeway. I just don't see it hapenning.

Jay was a jackass and a half. It was embarrassing to have that jackass on the team. He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

That doesn't endear some people to a QB, as seen by myself and many many other posters.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 03:49 PM
My point is that (IMHO) our moves re: defense and special teams have been "sideways" moves; not a clear upgrade or downgrade... so we can pretty much expect more of the same from those two units. And we have a clear downgrade with the offense. This... coupled with a brutal schedule... is why the poll's going two to one in predicting that we'll have fewer than 8 wins in the '09 season.

Nobody has any real idea what the sched will look like until we see the teams play in PS. It happens every year.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 03:49 PM
Jay was a jackass and a half. It was embarrassing to have that jackass on the team.

Point me to one post - just one - where you said anything close to this before Cutler-gate.

"It was embarrasing to have him on the team," ... YOU should be embarrased for having said that.

Archer81
07-04-2009, 03:49 PM
8-8. Exactly the same.


:Broncos:

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 03:51 PM
Jay was a jackass and a half. It was embarrassing to have that jackass on the team. He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

That doesn't endear some people to a QB, as seen by myself and many many other posters.

Oh how I love revisionist history.

It has a certain cuteness to it.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 03:57 PM
8-8. Exactly the same.

:Broncos:
That's cool. But this is what I meant about this poll being skewed slightly in favor of "Better" ... because I lumped 8-8 in with the "Better" choice.

Had I thrown 8-8 to the "Worse" choice, the results would probably run 3-1 for "Worse" Otherwise it's a solid poll statistically, with more reliable results than the others ... in fact, worlds better than the other skewed and slanted polls ... ;D

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Nobody has any real idea what the sched will look like until we see the teams play in PS. It happens every year.

We have more than just a few teams on our schedule that made the playoffs last year... including the defending SB champions. The NFC East is one of the toughest divisions in the league right now... all four of those teams are capable of winning on any given Sunday. The Chargers and Colts in recent years have owned the Broncos... and Belichick will be aiming for a total domination of his former OC...

I'd agree that we won't know what the team looks like until preseason... but we can already ascertain that we have a tough schedule.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 04:05 PM
Point me to one post - just one - where you said anything close to this before Cutler-gate.

"It was embarrasing to have him on the team," ... YOU should be embarrased for having said that.

I said around game 12 in 2008, "Cutler has a million dollar arm and a two-cent brain". That was concurred by a few people.

Don't try to get holier than thou with me.

DenverBrit
07-04-2009, 04:11 PM
We have more than just a few teams on our schedule that made the playoffs last year... including the defending SB champions. The NFC East is one of the toughest divisions in the league right now... all four of those teams are capable of winning on any given Sunday. The Chargers and Colts in recent years have owned the Broncos... and Belichick will be aiming for a total domination of his former OC...

I'd agree that we won't know what the team looks like until preseason... but we can already ascertain that we have a tough schedule.

Good. Then we will have a yardstick to judge the Broncos progress.

Anything less than: 50 points given up at SD and a total beatdown against the Colts on the road would indicate that McD has done something in his first year that Shanny and Cutler couldn't do.

Right? ;D

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 04:14 PM
Oh how I love revisionist history.

It has a certain cuteness to it.

There was a lot of posters that were saying at that time Jay should keep his mouth shut and play instead of playing grabass with Rivers. You and many others have conveniently forgot about how Jay made an ass out of himseof losing 41-3 running his mouth like the jackass he was. Then the subsequent ass-kickings by SD, while Jay ran his mouth.

I'm old school, you kick ass and never run your mouth. Running your mouth while your getting your ass kicked means you are a laughable fool.

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 04:19 PM
There was a lot of posters that were saying at that time Jay should keep his mouth shut and play instead of playing grabass with Rivers. You and many others have conveniently forgot about how Jay made an ass out of himseof losing 41-3 running his mouth like the jackass he was. Then the subsequent ass-kickings by SD, while Jay ran his mouth.

I'm old school, you kick ass and never run your mouth. Running your mouth while your getting your ass kicked means you are a laughable fool.

That's all well and good, but that's not what you said originally. You want to criticize Cutler for something tangible? I have no problem with that. But here is what you said:

Jay was a jackass and a half. It was embarrassing to have that jackass on the team. He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

That doesn't endear some people to a QB, as seen by myself and many many other posters.

Those are nothing more than wild accusations with zero basis in proof. You don't know how hard he was playing. You don't know his mental state, etc. To throw around garbage like that is just useless.

You want to say he wasn't a good QB? Fine. He threw too many INTs, etc. Fair game. But the rest of that tripe is just baseless and dumb. And it sounds like a Bronco homer whose world view is based off orange colored glasses.

Blueflame
07-04-2009, 04:19 PM
Good. Then we will have a yardstick to judge the Broncos progress.

Anything less than 50 points given up at SD and a total beatdown against the Colts on the road would indicate that McD has done something in his first year that Shanny and Cutler couldn't do.

Right? ;D

If it happens, wouldn't credit for it rightfully go to Nolan instead of McDaniels? Just sayin'.... while responsibility for a defensive collapse ultimately does fall on the HC, the DC's is usually the first head to roll.

And Cutler doesn't play defense... ;D

DenverBrit
07-04-2009, 04:36 PM
If it happens, wouldn't credit for it rightfully go to Nolan instead of McDaniels? Just sayin'.... while responsibility for a defensive collapse ultimately does fall on the HC, the DC's is usually the first head to roll.

And Cutler doesn't play defense... ;D

In SD, Cutler spent too much time b****ing and shouting with Rivers to play much offense either. ;D

Shanny wouldn't bring in a former HC with Nolan's DC credentials, and that's the point.

For all the talk of McD's ego, he put it aside long enough to hire a decent DC and allow him to pick his staff.

Everyone else inherited Burney and Co.

summerdenver
07-04-2009, 04:48 PM
Jay was a jackass and a half. It was embarrassing to have that jackass on the team. He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

That doesn't endear some people to a QB, as seen by myself and many many other posters.

I did not see evidence of what you are saying. If i go by what i saw on the field, Jay gave 100% every sunday. I don't care if my QB is not media savvy -All I want from a QB is to execute the gameplan on sunday.

If you don't like Jay and would prefer a more likable Orton thats fine. I don't want to do this a cutler vs McDaniels/Orton thing again which was beaten to death on this board. Pretty much everyone agrees about what Jay needs to improve upon and the only difference is whether you think he can get there or not. I happen to think that he will get better at decision making this year.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 05:05 PM
Jay certainly never flipped off the fans like Jake did.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 05:53 PM
That's all well and good, but that's not what you said originally. You want to criticize Cutler for something tangible? I have no problem with that. But here is what you said:



Those are nothing more than wild accusations with zero basis in proof. You don't know how hard he was playing. You don't know his mental state, etc. To throw around garbage like that is just useless.

You want to say he wasn't a good QB? Fine. He threw too many INTs, etc. Fair game. But the rest of that tripe is just baseless and dumb. And it sounds like a Bronco homer whose world view is based off orange colored glasses.

Hold the phone. I'll stand up to that. I'll say it again, and I'm not the only guy that has said the same:

He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

I'll say that anytime, because that is how it looked to me, and I'm not some guy that fell off the squash wagon yesterday. And I'm not the first guy to say the same thing, and those that have been saying what I just said are some of the most solid posters on this board for many years.

tnedator
07-04-2009, 05:59 PM
Hold the phone. I'll stand up to that. I'll say it again, and I'm not the only guy that has said the same:

He played halfass at times also. Down the stretch it looked like he couldn't get off the field fast enough. Playoffs on the line, and it looked like he wanted to get off the field as fast as he could be it by incompletions or INT's.

I'll say that anytime, because that is how it looked to me, and I'm not some guy that fell off the squash wagon yesterday. And I'm not the first guy to say the same thing, and those that have been saying what I just said are some of the most solid posters on this board for many years.

Man, I've heard some variation of this for every QB since Elway. Griese didn't have his heart in football, was focused on off field stuff. Plummer wouldn't make the effort to practice hard/learn during the week, and didn't look like he cared if he won. Cutler couldn't get off the field fast enough.

Blah, blah. Honestly, do you guys that type this garbage believe it, or is it just a way to feel better about change? Really, it's an honest question, not rhetorical.

maher_tyler
07-04-2009, 06:13 PM
My point is that (IMHO) our moves re: defense and special teams have been "sideways" moves; not a clear upgrade or downgrade... so we can pretty much expect more of the same from those two units. And we have a clear downgrade with the offense. This... coupled with a brutal schedule... is why the poll's going two to one in predicting that we'll have fewer than 8 wins in the '09 season.

The changing of D cord was a big improvement...our DB's are going to be WAY better!!

Cito Pelon
07-04-2009, 06:17 PM
Jay certainly never flipped off the fans like Jake did.

Jake flipped off one guy that was not a Bronco fan.

You show your ignorance stating Jake flipped off a Bronco fan.

I'll say it again so everybody knows your ignorance:

Jake flipped off a guy that was not a Bronco fan.

maher_tyler
07-04-2009, 06:33 PM
Reason why i believe we'll be 8-8 or better is because we'll force more turnovers, turn it over less, have better TOP and score in the redzone. Only 6 INTs last year total. Champ will get at least that many this year!!

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 06:58 PM
Man, I've heard some variation of this for every QB since Elway. Griese didn't have his heart in football, was focused on off field stuff. Plummer wouldn't make the effort to practice hard/learn during the week, and didn't look like he cared if he won. Cutler couldn't get off the field fast enough.

Blah, blah. Honestly, do you guys that type this garbage believe it, or is it just a way to feel better about change? Really, it's an honest question, not rhetorical.

Exactly. I don't care "how many people said it" because there is zero proof that anybody half assed it, didn't want to be there, etc.

Unless a coach or player flat out says it, it's just made up bull****.

Edit: And I want to state again, I'm not saying that critisizing Cutler is/was wrong. Not at all. But I think we should at least keep it to measurable things, such as TDs/INTs, Completion %, etc. Those things are all valid statistics that we can all agree on.

But again, not a single person can attest to heart, etc, except for that player and those in the lockerroom.

bronco_boi_5280
07-04-2009, 07:02 PM
Reason why i believe we'll be 8-8 or better is because we'll force more turnovers, turn it over less, have better TOP and score in the redzone. Only 6 INTs last year total. Champ will get at least that many this year!!

I don't know if Champ does. Why throw to Champ's side when you have the other side of the field wide open? Now, if we can get to the QB quickly and force a rushed pass or bad decision, then I'm on board. But we need a pass rush, as we all know.

maher_tyler
07-04-2009, 07:12 PM
I don't know if Champ does. Why throw to Champ's side when you have the other side of the field wide open? Now, if we can get to the QB quickly and force a rushed pass or bad decision, then I'm on board. But we need a pass rush, as we all know.

We haven't had any creative D cordinators as far as i can remember..hopefully Nolan will change that and make the best of the personel we have!!

BroncoBuff
07-04-2009, 07:29 PM
Jake flipped off one guy that was not a Bronco fan.

You show your ignorance stating Jake flipped off a Bronco fan.

I'll say it again so everybody knows your ignorance:

Jake flipped off a guy that was not a Bronco fan.
Are you just nuts? First of all, I didn't say "a Bronco fan," I said "the fans." And second, calling me "ignorant" because I don't make a distinction between Jake's "intended" target, and the tens of thousands in the firing line of that gesture is just, I dunno what it is, but it's definitely some kind of twisted thought process.

I like Jake, but flipping off one side of the stadium - behind your back - is classless. I think defending that is what's ignorant.

maher_tyler
07-04-2009, 09:45 PM
Are you just nuts? First of all, I didn't say "a Bronco fan," I said "the fans." And second, calling me "ignorant" because I don't make a distinction between Jake's "intended" target, and the tens of thousands in the firing line of that gesture is just, I dunno what it is, but it's definitely some kind of twisted thought process.

I like Jake, but flipping off one side of the stadium - behind your back - is classless. I think defending that is what's ignorant.

i thought it was pretty funny!

TotallyScrewed
07-04-2009, 10:12 PM
Hey, I think this is the second time I have agreed with you. Frightening.

Agreed, in both cases, the Broncos had all the leverage. More than likely the Cutler trade will be brought up for years as a huge mistake, but only time will tell.

With Marshall, the Broncos have all the leverage. He needs two more years of service to become a free agent (depending on what happens with the new CBA, of course). If he holds out, he will loose the vast majority of his salary, and will need to come back by week 10 or 11 to get a year of service, then will have to do it all over again next year as a restricted free agent.

Marshall is worth more to the Broncos as a Bronco then they will get in value from a trade.

Absolutely true but once again it's time for the owner to step up and control the team/situation. Will he?

My opinion of the poll is that it is way too easy...fewer than 8 victories, heck...fewer than 6 maybe fewer than 4.

TheReverend
07-04-2009, 10:16 PM
I don't know if Champ does. Why throw to Champ's side when you have the other side of the field wide open? Now, if we can get to the QB quickly and force a rushed pass or bad decision, then I'm on board. But we need a pass rush, as we all know.

Let me reiterate that statement for you.

WIDE OPEN.

The right side of the defense in our base package for perimeter players currently consists of:

Goodman at CB
Crowder at OLB
Dawkins at S

If that's not saying "throw the ball here", then nothing will.

PaintballCLE
07-04-2009, 10:21 PM
Let me reiterate that statement for you.

WIDE OPEN.

The right side of the defense in our base package for perimeter players currently consists of:

Goodman at CB
Crowder at OLB
Dawkins at S

If that's not saying "throw the ball here", then nothing will.

why would the even throw the ball when we have McBean, Fields, and Peterson on the Dline??? LOL

(and coming from a McD supporter.......out Dline is still gonna blow)
I just hope fields can do a mediocre job in the middle and ayers is a beast at LB

TheReverend
07-04-2009, 10:22 PM
why would the even throw the ball when we have McBean, Fields, and Peterson on the Dline??? LOL

(and coming from a McD supporter.......out Dline is still gonna blow)
I just hope fields can do a mediocre job in the middle and ayers is a beast at LB

Because Nolan and Nunnelly can turn water into wine, duh.

Also, I heard their feces cures cancer.

TheReverend
07-04-2009, 10:23 PM
To be fair, when we get into passing situations, it changes to:

Goodman
Elvis
Barrett

And naturally, this is all pre TC lineups.

tsiguy96
07-04-2009, 10:23 PM
why would the even throw the ball when we have McBean, Fields, and Peterson on the Dline??? LOL

(and coming from a McD supporter.......out Dline is still gonna blow)
I just hope fields can do a mediocre job in the middle and ayers is a beast at LB

fields may surprise, didnt willis have like 160 tackles behind him?

the DEs i am unsure about, but i think fields may be serviceable if not good this year.

PaintballCLE
07-04-2009, 10:27 PM
Because Nolan and Nunnelly can turn water into wine, duh.

Also, I heard their feces cures cancer.

:thumbsup:

Blueflame
07-05-2009, 01:32 AM
In SD, Cutler spent too much time b****ing and shouting with Rivers to play much offense either. ;D

Shanny wouldn't bring in a former HC with Nolan's DC credentials, and that's the point.

For all the talk of McD's ego, he put it aside long enough to hire a decent DC and allow him to pick his staff.

Everyone else inherited Burney and Co.

One of the biggest mistakes of the Shanahan era (IMHO) was letting Coyer go.... I thought he did more with the players he had than just about anyone else could have. I'm not at all "sold" on Nolan as DC... any more than I was with Bates.... he's gonna have to show me something (in Denver) first.

Blueflame
07-05-2009, 01:34 AM
The changing of D cord was a big improvement...our DB's are going to be WAY better!!

I think that depends on our front 7... if they can't generate a pass rush (meaning the opposing QB has no pressure and can comfortably take his time to find an open receiver) then our secondary will struggle. As usual lately.

DenverBrit
07-05-2009, 10:08 AM
One of the biggest mistakes of the Shanahan era (IMHO) was letting Coyer go.... I thought he did more with the players he had than just about anyone else could have. I'm not at all "sold" on Nolan as DC... any more than I was with Bates.... he's gonna have to show me something (in Denver) first.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the new D coaching staff.....it's the talent that's going to be harder to find.

But then again, I was excited when Rhodes was brought on board....though not for long.

Odysseus
07-05-2009, 11:28 AM
7-9 or worse would have been my expectation even keeping shanny and cutler.

This team has seem really deeply rooted problems. Anytime you go in a new direction you are bound to have some serious growing pains. Broncos are not an elite team right now and until they get players playing together rather than quitting the team 7 wins is a good season.

Cito Pelon
07-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Man, I've heard some variation of this for every QB since Elway. Griese didn't have his heart in football, was focused on off field stuff. Plummer wouldn't make the effort to practice hard/learn during the week, and didn't look like he cared if he won. Cutler couldn't get off the field fast enough.

Blah, blah. Honestly, do you guys that type this garbage believe it, or is it just a way to feel better about change? Really, it's an honest question, not rhetorical.

I never liked Cutler's on-field persona from the start. And I'm not the only one. Most of us that ragged on Cutler got hated off the board long ago. There was plenty of people that questioned his leadership ability, how he'd sit by himself right next to the Gatorade container so he'd be blocked from teammates on one side, and ignore teammates from the other side with a blank stare on his face. Bates would go to him and try to show him photos, and Jay would just cursorily look at them then go back out on the field and half-ass it.

Cito Pelon
07-05-2009, 12:00 PM
I did not see evidence of what you are saying. If i go by what i saw on the field, Jay gave 100% every sunday. I don't care if my QB is not media savvy -All I want from a QB is to execute the gameplan on sunday.

If you don't like Jay and would prefer a more likable Orton thats fine. I don't want to do this a cutler vs McDaniels/Orton thing again which was beaten to death on this board. Pretty much everyone agrees about what Jay needs to improve upon and the only difference is whether you think he can get there or not. I happen to think that he will get better at decision making this year.

Jay is the classic "I only play my best if I think we can win" kind of guy. I said that from the start of his Bronco career, so it's not like I just made this up since he got traded. Dude has a loser mentality. He's great when the cards are falling his way, but when the chips are down he's not a guy you want leading your team. I've played sports with many a guy like Cutler, super-talented but not a guy you can count on when the chips are down.