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misturanderson
06-30-2009, 09:12 AM
Anyone see the discussion between Chris Carter and the other guy about whether or not the Lions would have the number one overall pick next year or not?

The argument against it was essentially that they thought the Lions wouldn't have the #1 overall because that was where the Broncos pick would be. Not to mention that part of the argument they had was that essentially BM was being traded.

Now I may be a bit of a homer, but I don't see how anyone can think that we have downgraded so much that we will have the #1 overall pick.

How have the Chiefs and Raiders improved so much from last year that they will both overtake us? Browns? Bengals? Anyone here actually believe that we are THAT bad?

Or is it just that they only pay attention to the Cutler and Marshall stories and haven't looked into how much we have improved on the worst defensive coaching staff in the league last year as well as the worst safety tandem in possibly the past 10+ years?

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 09:17 AM
It definitely could happen, but it seems unlikely.

Our O-line alone should keep us outta the cellar.

400HZ
06-30-2009, 09:37 AM
The Broncos, Lions, Rams, and Raiders are my early favorites to pick #1.

At least you'll have a high draft pi.....errrr. ;)

Irish Stout
06-30-2009, 09:40 AM
Broncos downgrade: QB, maybe one WR.

Broncos maintain: OLine

Broncos Upgrade: RB (assuming they stay healthy), maybe only marginally, but the entire D should be better.

Considering that we had two glaring weaknesses last year - red zone scoring and Defense - an upgrade at RB and revamped D and D strategy cannot hurt us and should equal out a missing QB (IMO) who couldn't get it done in the redzone.

I think the Broncos at worst are equal to the Broncos of last year.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 09:41 AM
I really don't quite understand it either. No one was saying this pre-Cutler trade and anyone who watched the Broncos last year knows Cutler wasnt responsible for 6 wins (i assume something like 2-14 would earn you the first pick). Assuming Marshall plays, we have top notch talent all around the entire offense (perhaps with the exception of QB, though Orton has proven servicable.) Our defense has NO where to go but up and i think our special teams improved the day McD was hired.

Why the absense of an inconsistant (though talented) QB suddenly makes us the worst team in the NFL is beyond me.

crush17
06-30-2009, 09:42 AM
I hate Chris Carter.

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 09:44 AM
Worse: QB

Better: Coaching, secondary, linebackers, running backs, tight ends, football IQ of players and character.

Same: Defensive line, offensive line, receivers.

Unknown: Special teams.

We went 8-8 last year but we had a cupcake schedule. This year we have (what looks like) a harder schedule but a better team.

Anyone who thinks we will have the number one pick is an idiot. That apparently includes 400HZ.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:45 AM
Broncos downgrade: QB, maybe one WR.

Broncos maintain: OLine

Broncos Upgrade: RB (assuming they stay healthy), maybe only marginally, but the entire D should be better.

Considering that we had two glaring weaknesses last year - red zone scoring and Defense - an upgrade at RB and revamped D and D strategy cannot hurt us and should equal out a missing QB (IMO) who couldn't get it done in the redzone.

I think the Broncos at worst are equal to the Broncos of last year.

i agree. we werent GREAT at scoring last year, but we had an awful D too. the team put up 1/3 of its total points in the first 3 games, after that the offense was highly overrated, so i dont see how this year will be such a downgrade.

azbroncfan
06-30-2009, 09:45 AM
Anyone see the discussion between Chris Carter and the other guy about whether or not the Lions would have the number one overall pick next year or not?

The argument against it was essentially that they thought the Lions wouldn't have the #1 overall because that was where the Broncos pick would be. Not to mention that part of the argument they had was that essentially BM was being traded.

Now I may be a bit of a homer, but I don't see how anyone can think that we have downgraded so much that we will have the #1 overall pick.

How have the Chiefs and Raiders improved so much from last year that they will both overtake us? Browns? Bengals? Anyone here actually believe that we are THAT bad?

Or is it just that they only pay attention to the Cutler and Marshall stories and haven't looked into how much we have improved on the worst defensive coaching staff in the league last year as well as the worst safety tandem in possibly the past 10+ years?

Broncos pick? Wouldn't Seattle have the overall number 1 pick?

bombquixote
06-30-2009, 09:47 AM
Not to mention that part of the argument they had was that essentially BM was being traded...

Aren't Chris Carter and BM friends? So maybe these schlubs actually know something about where BM stands.

I smell a holdout.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:49 AM
Aren't Chris Carter and BM friends? So maybe these schlubs actually know something about where BM stands.

I smell a holdout.

wont happen, broncos will never get enough compensation to justify trading him.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 09:49 AM
Aren't Chris Carter and BM friends? So maybe these schlubs actually know something about where BM stands.

I smell a holdout.

He's gonna lose money if he sits out the season. Not to mention Denver could still franchise him. Makes no sense for him to hold out for long. Though i wish they'd just resign him.

CHANGSTER
06-30-2009, 09:54 AM
Broncos pick? Wouldn't Seattle have the overall number 1 pick?

Yep. I caught the show last night and they were all completely oblivious to this fact. And oh yeah, Chris Carter is a moron.

misturanderson
06-30-2009, 09:56 AM
He's gonna lose money if he sits out the season. Not to mention Denver could still franchise him. Makes no sense for him to hold out for long. Though i wish they'd just resign him.

I'm sure it will come in time. Especially around now with all of the rookies needing to be signed, I'm sure they are in no rush to extend Marshall.

Rabb
06-30-2009, 09:58 AM
the only way we get the #1 pick is if Chicago tanks it hard I thought

vancejohnson82
06-30-2009, 10:02 AM
really bad teams end up really bad because of the offensive line...

go ahead and name one team that finished with the worst league record that had a good offensive line

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 10:02 AM
If BM gets traded I could see a top 10 pick. Denver wouldn't want to pay top 10 money and imo that was part of the reason they traded it. Our D still is weak but, tons of unknown everywhere else. If QB's struggle alot in 09 it will be a long year if they play pretty well I could see 7 to 9 wins.

Only way we have #1 overall pick if we are hit heavy with injuries in key areas.

Rabb
06-30-2009, 10:08 AM
am I missing the boat here?

I swore we don't have a #1 next year that is ours, we have Chicago's

at least I thought that is how it was

Beantown Bronco
06-30-2009, 10:09 AM
If BM gets traded I could see a top 10 pick. Denver wouldn't want to pay top 10 money and imo that was part of the reason they traded it.

Only problem with that scenario is BM didn't even hint at being unhappy or wanting to be traded until months after they traded that pick.....so it was never part of their thought process that they might be picking that high because of losing him.

misturanderson
06-30-2009, 10:10 AM
They were referring to our ORIGINAL pick, yes it is Seattle's now. They were saying that we would have the worst record in the NFL.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 10:14 AM
Only problem with that scenario is BM didn't even hint at being unhappy or wanting to be traded until months after they traded that pick.....so it was never part of their thought process that they might be picking that high because of losing him.

I'm sorry I put two thoughts together. I do think Denver FO knows it might be a long 09. I do think they traded our pick in 2010 because they didn't want pay #1 money esp possible top 10.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm sorry I put two thoughts together. I do think Denver FO knows it might be a long 09. I do think they traded our pick in 2010 because they didn't want pay #1 money esp high.

you honestly believe the team knew they were gonna lose a ton of games this year and thus traded next years pick so they dont have to pay it?

people actually believe this bull****? really?

SoDak Bronco
06-30-2009, 10:16 AM
God offseason sucks

boltaneer
06-30-2009, 10:16 AM
You guys won't have the worst record this year.

Beantown Bronco
06-30-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm sorry I put two thoughts together. I do think Denver FO knows it might be a long 09. I do think they traded our pick in 2010 because they didn't want pay #1 money esp possible top 10.

Cleveland had no problem dealing with that issue this past year. Despite what some say, there are always teams willing to move up.

Tombstone RJ
06-30-2009, 10:19 AM
Anyone see the discussion between Chris Carter and the other guy about whether or not the Lions would have the number one overall pick next year or not?

The argument against it was essentially that they thought the Lions wouldn't have the #1 overall because that was where the Broncos pick would be. Not to mention that part of the argument they had was that essentially BM was being traded.

Now I may be a bit of a homer, but I don't see how anyone can think that we have downgraded so much that we will have the #1 overall pick.

How have the Chiefs and Raiders improved so much from last year that they will both overtake us? Browns? Bengals? Anyone here actually believe that we are THAT bad?

Or is it just that they only pay attention to the Cutler and Marshall stories and haven't looked into how much we have improved on the worst defensive coaching staff in the league last year as well as the worst safety tandem in possibly the past 10+ years?


Wow, you really watched that show? Sorry you wasted your time like that.

Tombstone RJ
06-30-2009, 10:20 AM
You guys won't have the worst record this year.

This coming from a fan of a team that knows what it means to suck, and suck bad.

:thanku:

Take it to the bank people!

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 10:22 AM
you honestly believe the team knew they were gonna lose a ton of games this year and thus traded next years pick so they dont have to pay it?

people actually believe this bull****? really?


Publicly NO but, privately they might realize that their is a CHANCE we could struggle with wins we have lots of turnover this year and did not want to pay top dollar. Money is more of a factor these days with teams. With all our needs on D esp upfront they traded a next yrs #1 for # 37 for a talented corner screams money issue to me.

OBF1
06-30-2009, 10:23 AM
by the way, It was not Cris Carter making that prediction. It was James Hasty.

broncofan2438
06-30-2009, 10:24 AM
You guys won't have the worst record this year.

Thanks, now I can sleep at night

Rabb
06-30-2009, 10:28 AM
God offseason sucks

this to the nth

misturanderson
06-30-2009, 10:28 AM
by the way, It was not Cris Carter making that prediction. It was James Hasty.

Yeah, I didn't know his name, Carter basically didn't get to say anything during that question.

Broncoman13
06-30-2009, 10:31 AM
The only way we have the #1 pick is if the Bears shiat themselves... Possible that the Shehawks end up with #1 but I think the 5 or 6 is more likely.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 10:45 AM
We downgraded at the QB and head coach... pretty important positions. On the otherside we upgraded at just about every position on the defense and defensive coaching staff.

Unfortunately it's going to take time for the new systems and players to solidify... add to that a BRUTAL schedule and I still see a top 10 pick. No where near #1 but enough to probably make me hate our rookie corner for a long long time.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 10:47 AM
We downgraded at the QB and head coach... pretty important positions. On the potherside we upgraded at just about every position on the defense and defensive coaching staff.

Unfortunately it's going to take time for the new systems and players to solidify... add to that a BRUTAL schedule and I still see a top 10 pick. No where near #1 but enough to probably make me hate our rookie corner for a long long time.

How do you know we downgraded at HC? Were you all that impressed with Shanahan's coaching last year...or the last few beyond the first scripted 15?

worm
06-30-2009, 10:47 AM
I think the Broncos will shock the World this year. They will be one of the surprise teams in '09.

However, is it any surprise that the rest of the football world doesn't view things quite as Orangy? The Broncos have just experienced the most tumultuous off-season in franchise history.

Having a strong belief that your team is moving forward with a plan and is positioned to compete this year if they get a few breaks is one thing.

Not seeing how others might view it differently reeks of homerism.

worm
06-30-2009, 10:50 AM
How do you know we downgraded at HC? Were you all that impressed with Shanahan's coaching last year...or the last few beyond the first scripted 15?

I think Shanny was a fantastic game-day coach. Even last year.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 10:52 AM
How do you know we downgraded at HC? Were you all that impressed with Shanahan's coaching last year...or the last few beyond the first scripted 15?

Compared to a rookie head coach... yes Shanahan is better.

Maybe one day McKidd will prove to be the next Vince Lombardi but right now it's just blind homerism to even put this kid in Shanny's league.

HILife
06-30-2009, 10:54 AM
No way would Denver have the #1 pick, but I wouldn't be suprised if they had a top 10 pick. I would be SHOCKED if Denver DIDN'T have a top 15 pick. In my mind if they stay out of the top 15 then they had a good year.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 10:54 AM
can someone explain to me whats wrong with being a homer? its more fun to have hope and optimism that the team will do good then cry and be a ****ing baby about how bad they will be.

as far as being an OC, its pretty obvious mcdaniels is as good or better than shanahan was (they both led some of the greatest offenses the NFL has ever seen) but well have to see if that transfers to running a whole team.

Br0nc0Buster
06-30-2009, 11:02 AM
Compared to a rookie head coach... yes Shanahan is better.

Maybe one day McKidd will prove to be the next Vince Lombardi but right now it's just blind homerism to even put this kid in Shanny's league.

If he was doing that amazing he would still be here.
Granted it was his personel decisions and specifically the ones on defense that cat him canned, but since Shanny was in complete control, you cant have his coaching without his personel decisions

This team under Shanny the past 3 years has been just average, I dont think it is far fetched for McDaniels to match that even in his first year

boltaneer
06-30-2009, 11:13 AM
This coming from a fan of a team that knows what it means to suck, and suck bad.

:thanku:

Take it to the bank people!

Wow, that's some displaced anger you have there. :flower:

TheDave
06-30-2009, 11:30 AM
If he was doing that amazing he would still be here.
Granted it was his personel decisions and specifically the ones on defense that cat him canned, but since Shanny was in complete control, you cant have his coaching without his personel decisions

This team under Shanny the past 3 years has been just average, I dont think it is far fetched for McDaniels to match that even in his first year

Exactly, Shanahan the GM got Shanahan the coach fired... As of right now we have gone from a coach that has HOF credentials to a rookie that has no credentials.

Thats a downgrade to anyone not wearing a foam horse head.

broncswin
06-30-2009, 11:38 AM
The Broncos, Lions, Rams, and Raiders are my early favorites to pick #1.

At least you'll have a high draft pi.....errrr. ;)

I usually respect your posts, that has changed with the above garbage, to put the broncos in that group is baffling

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 11:43 AM
I think Shanny was a fantastic game-day coach. Even last year.

Maybe, though i guess he wasnt even calling the plays

~Crash~
06-30-2009, 11:46 AM
He's gonna lose money if he sits out the season. Not to mention Denver could still franchise him. Makes no sense for him to hold out for long. Though i wish they'd just resign him.

why would we need to do any thing he has a contract and he signed it he has to play a year no matter what .

~Crash~
06-30-2009, 11:47 AM
Exactly, Shanahan the GM got Shanahan the coach fired... As of right now we have gone from a coach that has HOF credentials to a rookie that has no credentials.

Thats a downgrade to anyone not wearing a foam horse head.

yep:thumbsup:

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 11:48 AM
If he was doing that amazing he would still be here.
Granted it was his personel decisions and specifically the ones on defense that cat him canned, but since Shanny was in complete control, you cant have his coaching without his personel decisions

This team under Shanny the past 3 years has been just average, I dont think it is far fetched for McDaniels to match that even in his first year

After a season or two I expect McD to be every bit as good or better of gameday coach Shanny ever was the last decade. The key imo is FO moves/draft will decide McD success or failure here in Denver.

Beantown Bronco
06-30-2009, 11:56 AM
I expect McD to be every bit as good or better of gameday coach Shanny ever was the last decade.

It's amazing how people underestimate how good of a coach Shanny was. You simply can't tell me he has been winning all these games the past 10 years simply because he has more talent as his disposal. The fact that very few starters that have been released by the Broncos have gone on to do anything of note anywhere else is pretty telling.

The Broncos almost always lose one game a year they shouldn't if you look solely at the talent in the field, but they win two or three they should lose as a result of their superior scheme and preparation.

HILife
06-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Go Broncos

rastaman
06-30-2009, 12:04 PM
Aren't Chris Carter and BM friends? So maybe these schlubs actually know something about where BM stands.

I smell a holdout.

No way BMarsh holds out and loose 2.2 mil, unless his agent is willing to float him a couple of million. :~ohyah!:

Tombstone RJ
06-30-2009, 12:13 PM
Wow, that's some displaced anger you have there. :flower:

How can anger at a rival fan be displaced? :welcome:

Seriously though, anyone who thinks this Bronco's team is gonna be so bad that the Seachickens are gonna get the #1 pick is just being silly.

I've already predicted that this team will hover around 8 wins this coming season. Perhaps that is homeristic of me, but ehhhhh ok so I'm a Bronco's homer.

I think what McD is trying to do is change the culture of the locker room and rebuild this team from the inside out. When I say "inside out" I mean the moral and character of the team, the heart of the team.

Will McD do it? Can he do it? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

But I do know this: if the guys in the locker room "get it" and play as a team, and focus all their energy on playing as a team and knowing their assigments, then things like winning and losing will take care of themselves.

I had a coach who always preached a simple philosophy: take care of the little things like executing your assigment and the big things like winning and losing will take care of themselves. If everyone is on the same page and all 11 players execute their assigments on each play, winning football games will come naturally. Control the things you can control like attitude, blocking, tackling and execution and don't worry about the things you can't control like the refs and the fans and the weather, etc. Just do your job.

It's amazing how my coaches in high school knew this just as much as Bill Belichick knows this stuff.

Football 101.

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 12:17 PM
After a season or two I expect McD to be every bit as good or better of gameday coach Shanny ever was the last decade.

The key imo is FO moves/draft will decide McD success or failure here in Denver.
.... and his draft performance is exactly why I'm concerned about his gameday coaching ability.

Follow me here: Draft Day is very much like a Game Day. You have short periods of time to make important decisions, using myriad strategies that change minute by minute. What concerns me is:

1) He traded up three times during that draft, including trading away a 1st round pick. That indicates to me he's impulsive, and might have trouble "delaying gratification," as it were. He obviously was a first-class play-caller in NE, but I'm still concerend about this impulsive kinda stuff and how it might surface during games.
2) He traded away the 1st rounder without protecting it as the lower of the two. That is a standard trade clause that apparently he did not or would not insist upon.


I just wish we had hired an experienced, top-notch GM to do all this stuff. A Pioli/Parcells/Savage type. If we had one of those guys, you can take it to the bank right now we'd have included a trade clasue that gives us the better of the two picks. Let Josh earn his coaching stripes first before he becomes the GM too (have I mentioned this before? hmmm... )

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 12:20 PM
Seriously though, anyone who thinks this Bronco's team is gonna be so bad that the Seachickens are gonna get the #1 pick is just being silly.
You're right that is silly .... the O-line alone will win a handful of games, keep us outta the cellar.


I've already predicted that this team will hover around 8 wins this coming season. Perhaps that is homeristic of me, but ehhhhh ok so I'm a Bronco's homer.
I dunno how "homer" that is ... 6-8 wins seems realistic. Most guys around here are thinking that way.

rastaman
06-30-2009, 12:21 PM
can someone explain to me whats wrong with being a homer? its more fun to have hope and optimism that the team will do good then cry and be a ****ing baby about how bad they will be.

as far as being an OC, its pretty obvious mcdaniels is as good or better than shanahan was (they both led some of the greatest offenses the NFL has ever seen) but well have to see if that transfers to running a whole team.

I gotta disagree with you. McKidd is only 33 years old and is a rookie HC in the NFL. That alone is a large hurddle to overcome. Shanny's first HCing job was with OAK back in 1988 and he was a 36 year old rookie HC and in the first year he went 7-9 and the second year he went 1-3 before Al Davis fired him. Thats an 8-12 record. Guess where Shanny ended up coaching after getting fired by the Raiders!!!! He returned to the Broncos and got his old position back! Could the same fate be waiting for McD? Could Bowlen jettison McD after 2 or 3 full seasons, and McD finds himself back as OC for the Patriots?? Who knows, weirder thinkgs have happened in the NFL.

rastaman
06-30-2009, 12:24 PM
You're right that is silly .... the O-line alone will win a handful of games, keep us outta the cellar.



I dunno how "homer" that is ... 6-8 wins seems realistic. Most guys around here are thinking that way.

I predict btwn 3-6 wins in 2009. Hey we are rebuilding......can't be too overly optimistic.

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 12:26 PM
It's amazing how people underestimate how good of a coach Shanny was.

I am with you BB. I did a summary of the Broncos record for 1999 - 2007 some time back and IIRC, Denver won 5ht highest number of games during this period. Only Pit, NE, Ind, Eagles, if memory serves me correctly, won more than Denver during this period. btw, this is after Elway retired and including the snakenbit 1999 season where we lost TD in the beginning of the season. The last 2 years denver was basically rebuilding and every team has to go thru this.

People point to playoff losses to Ind and Bal during this period but truth be told Bronocs were underdogs in all these games. The only game which they were favored to win and lost was AFCG to Pit.

boltaneer
06-30-2009, 12:33 PM
How can anger at a rival fan be displaced? :welcome:

Seriously though, anyone who thinks this Bronco's team is gonna be so bad that the Seachickens are gonna get the #1 pick is just being silly.

I've already predicted that this team will hover around 8 wins this coming season. Perhaps that is homeristic of me, but ehhhhh ok so I'm a Bronco's homer.

I think what McD is trying to do is change the culture of the locker room and rebuild this team from the inside out. When I say "inside out" I mean the moral and character of the team, the heart of the team.

Will McD do it? Can he do it? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

But I do know this: if the guys in the locker room "get it" and play as a team, and focus all their energy on playing as a team and knowing their assigments, then things like winning and losing will take care of themselves.

I had a coach who always preached a simple philosophy: take care of the little things like executing your assigment and the big things like winning and losing will take care of themselves. If everyone is on the same page and all 11 players execute their assigments on each play, winning football games will come naturally. Control the things you can control like attitude, blocking, tackling and execution and don't worry about the things you can't control like the refs and the fans and the weather, etc. Just do your job.

It's amazing how my coaches in high school knew this just as much as Bill Belichick knows this stuff.

Football 101.

Why is this directed at me (or is it)? I didn't say anything about the Broncos being the worst in the league. I think if there is anyone in the division who will be competing for the #1 pick it will be KC.

Looking at the Broncos schedule though, I'll say 6-10 at best. 8')

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 12:34 PM
Compared to a rookie head coach... yes Shanahan is better.

That remains to be seen.

Since Kubiak and Coyer left both units have been full of fail. And how about these "awesome" games, many at home?

2006 vs Chargers: L 27-35 We're up by 20+ and then implode

2006 vs 49ers: L 23-26 We have to win to make the playoffs and choke it all away.

2007 vs Chargers: L 3-41 Yeah that's right: We scored three points in the worst home loss in Broncos history since the sixties. Shanahan famously said "The team wasn't ready and that's my fault." A line he would repeat several times this season and next.

2007 @ Detroit: L 7-44 Yeah that's right: We got completely destroyed by the Detroit Lions. A team that would finish 7-9 and the following year go winless. Shanny repeats his "wasn't ready" comment in the post came conference. AWESOME coaching! ;)

2007 @ Houston: L 31-13 The 8-8 Texans beat us down on national TV. Colinsworth famously points out "The Houston Texans look more like the Denver Broncos than the Broncos do." How right he was. We hadn't looked like ourselves since 2005.

2007 @ San Diego: L 3-23 The Broncos avenge their earlier home embarrassment by cutting the Boltz lead in half! It does however take us an extra 15 minutes to score our mighty field goal this time.

2008 @ KC: L 33-19 Denver goes in cocky and promptly turns the ball over several times as a broken Larry Johnson runs all over Denver. Even in the waning moments with the game within reach the team folds like toilet paper in the clutch. KC Records one of their two wins for the entire season.

2008 @ NE: L 7-41 Denver gets a beat down of epic proportions on MNF. All are witness to the lousiness of the team. Highlights: On third and nineteen with Cassal pinned on his own goal line, as he's rolling out to dump off what will likely be a ten yard gain and force a punting situation, Jamie Winborn reaches up deliberately yanks Cassal's face mask preserving the drive that ultimately results in a touchdown. Also: Hall's consecutive fumbles! Epic. Shanahan, you guessed it, apologizes for the team "not being ready to play" again in the press conference.

2008 Vs Oakland: L 10-31 Cutler is out drinking the night before and after a solid drive fumbles on the goal line turning the ball over to the Raiders who eventually steal the game our postseason hopes away. Losing at home to division rivals has become a tradition at this point.

2008 vs Buffalo: L 23-30 Cutler throws an interception and no TD's and misses a would-be game-tying, wide open Stokely TD in the endzone. Broncos defense actually gets some stops but Denver can't score in the clutch. Team members are seen weeping in the locker room knowing that their season is over.

2008 @ Chargers: L 21-52 Another nationally televised beat down where we're embarrassed for the whole nation, something of a theme for us at this point. The Chargers offense averages 13 points a quarter. After scoring a TD and then missing the extra point twice in a row, Denver does nothing until garbage time. Another "team wasn't ready" comment followed by Shanahan having to eat his guarantee of the playoffs at the beginning of the season. As if things weren't bad enough, Shanahan insists his friend Bob Slowick will return to run the defense in the 2009 season.

Now we've averaged 8-8 for the last three years. Shanahan gets credit for our wins but there have been a large number of really embarrassing beat-downs. I believe that in the first year, record wise there probably won't be much difference between McDaniels and Shanny. However I think we'll be a far more consistent and competitive team. I think if we lose it won't be by 40 point margins but by 3-10. And I think our team will be more physical and tougher. If this is what we look like at the end of the year and the records are the same, I'll consider McDaniels an upgrade over the recent coaching of Mike Shanahan.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 12:42 PM
That remains to be seen...


Great post. We think alike on this topic.

I agree that Shanny was a great coach but I think his best coaching is long behind him. He got outcoached, and fielded unprepared teams, far too many times over the last 3-4 seasons. Great coaches don't get blown out by the Detroit Lions, or get repeatedly embarrassed in winable games at home. People are letting their sentimentality get in the way of rational thinking when it comes to Shanahan.

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 12:47 PM
I believe that in the first year, record wise there probably won't be much difference between McDaniels and Shanny. However I think we'll be a far more consistent and competitive team. I think if we lose it won't be by 40 point margins but by 3-10. And I think our team will be more physical and tougher. If this is what we look like at the end of the year and the records are the same, I'll consider McDaniels an upgrade over the recent coaching of Mike Shanahan.

Thats fair - by the same token if we win only 5 or less games (I will give a 3 game cushion for implementing new systems, offseason turmoil etc) , I would consider that a downgrade.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 12:49 PM
That remains to be seen.

Since Kubiak and Coyer left both units have been full of fail. And how about these "awesome" games, many at home?

2006 vs Chargers: L 27-35 We're up by 20+ and then implode

2006 vs 49ers: L 23-26 We have to win to make the playoffs and choke it all away.

2007 vs Chargers: L 3-41 Yeah that's right: We scored three points in the worst home loss in Broncos history since the sixties. Shanahan famously said "The team wasn't ready and that's my fault." A line he would repeat several times this season and next.

2007 @ Detroit: L 7-44 Yeah that's right: We got completely destroyed by the Detroit Lions. A team that would finish 7-9 and the following year go winless. Shanny repeats his "wasn't ready" comment in the post came conference. AWESOME coaching! ;)

2007 @ Houston: L 31-13 The 8-8 Texans beat us down on national TV. Colinsworth famously points out "The Houston Texans look more like the Denver Broncos than the Broncos do." How right he was. We hadn't looked like ourselves since 2005.

2007 @ San Diego: L 3-23 The Broncos avenge their earlier home embarrassment by cutting the Boltz lead in half! It does however take us an extra 15 minutes to score our mighty field goal this time.

2008 @ KC: L 33-19 Denver goes in cocky and promptly turns the ball over several times as a broken Larry Johnson runs all over Denver. Even in the waning moments with the game within reach the team folds like toilet paper in the clutch. KC Records one of their two wins for the entire season.

2008 @ NE: L 7-41 Denver gets a beat down of epic proportions on MNF. All are witness to the lousiness of the team. Highlights: On third and nineteen with Cassal pinned on his own goal line, as he's rolling out to dump off what will likely be a ten yard gain and force a punting situation, Jamie Winborn reaches up deliberately yanks Cassal's face mask preserving the drive that ultimately results in a touchdown. Also: Hall's consecutive fumbles! Epic. Shanahan, you guessed it, apologizes for the team "not being ready to play" again in the press conference.

2008 Vs Oakland: L 10-31 Cutler is out drinking the night before and after a solid drive fumbles on the goal line turning the ball over to the Raiders who eventually steal the game our postseason hopes away. Losing at home to division rivals has become a tradition at this point.

2008 vs Buffalo: L 23-30 Cutler throws an interception and no TD's and misses a would-be game-tying, wide open Stokely TD in the endzone. Broncos defense actually gets some stops but Denver can't score in the clutch. Team members are seen weeping in the locker room knowing that their season is over.

2008 @ Chargers: L 21-52 Another nationally televised beat down where we're embarrassed for the whole nation, something of a theme for us at this point. The Chargers offense averages 13 points a quarter. After scoring a TD and then missing the extra point twice in a row, Denver does nothing until garbage time. Another "team wasn't ready" comment followed by Shanahan having to eat his guarantee of the playoffs at the beginning of the season. As if things weren't bad enough, Shanahan insists his friend Bob Slowick will return to run the defense in the 2009 season.

Now we've averaged 8-8 for the last three years. Shanahan gets credit for our wins but there have been a large number of really embarrassing beat-downs. I believe that in the first year, record wise there probably won't be much difference between McDaniels and Shanny. However I think we'll be a far more consistent and competitive team. I think if we lose it won't be by 40 point margins but by 3-10. And I think our team will be more physical and tougher. If this is what we look like at the end of the year and the records are the same, I'll consider McDaniels an upgrade over the recent coaching of Mike Shanahan.


Let's not forget many do we started 6 or 7 and 2 and finished with 7 8 or 9 wins not really that great for HOF coach.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 12:50 PM
.... and his draft performance is exactly why I'm concerned about his gameday coaching ability.

Follow me here: Draft Day is very much like a Game Day. You have short periods of time to make important decisions, using myriad strategies that change minute by minute. What concerns me is:

1) He traded up three times during that draft, including trading away a 1st round pick. That indicates to me he's impulsive, and might have trouble "delaying gratification," as it were. He obviously was a first-class play-caller in NE, but I'm still concerend about this impulsive kinda stuff and how it might surface during games.
2) He traded away the 1st rounder without protecting it as the lower of the two. That is a standard trade clause that apparently he did not or would not insist upon.


I just wish we had hired an experienced, top-notch GM to do all this stuff. A Pioli/Parcells/Savage type. If we had one of those guys, you can take it to the bank right now we'd have included a trade clasue that gives us the better of the two picks. Let Josh earn his coaching stripes first before he becomes the GM too (have I mentioned this before? hmmm... )

I agree with you points BB I would have liked him to get his feet set before he made all his moves and get a quility GM in place as well but, they didn't so we are where we are now.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 01:01 PM
That remains to be seen.

Since Kubiak and Coyer left both units have been full of fail. And how about these "awesome" games, many at home?

2006 vs Chargers: L 27-35 We're up by 20+ and then implode

2006 vs 49ers: L 23-26 We have to win to make the playoffs and choke it all away.

2007 vs Chargers: L 3-41 Yeah that's right: We scored three points in the worst home loss in Broncos history since the sixties. Shanahan famously said "The team wasn't ready and that's my fault." A line he would repeat several times this season and next.

2007 @ Detroit: L 7-44 Yeah that's right: We got completely destroyed by the Detroit Lions. A team that would finish 7-9 and the following year go winless. Shanny repeats his "wasn't ready" comment in the post came conference. AWESOME coaching! ;)

2007 @ Houston: L 31-13 The 8-8 Texans beat us down on national TV. Colinsworth famously points out "The Houston Texans look more like the Denver Broncos than the Broncos do." How right he was. We hadn't looked like ourselves since 2005.

2007 @ San Diego: L 3-23 The Broncos avenge their earlier home embarrassment by cutting the Boltz lead in half! It does however take us an extra 15 minutes to score our mighty field goal this time.

2008 @ KC: L 33-19 Denver goes in cocky and promptly turns the ball over several times as a broken Larry Johnson runs all over Denver. Even in the waning moments with the game within reach the team folds like toilet paper in the clutch. KC Records one of their two wins for the entire season.

2008 @ NE: L 7-41 Denver gets a beat down of epic proportions on MNF. All are witness to the lousiness of the team. Highlights: On third and nineteen with Cassal pinned on his own goal line, as he's rolling out to dump off what will likely be a ten yard gain and force a punting situation, Jamie Winborn reaches up deliberately yanks Cassal's face mask preserving the drive that ultimately results in a touchdown. Also: Hall's consecutive fumbles! Epic. Shanahan, you guessed it, apologizes for the team "not being ready to play" again in the press conference.

2008 Vs Oakland: L 10-31 Cutler is out drinking the night before and after a solid drive fumbles on the goal line turning the ball over to the Raiders who eventually steal the game our postseason hopes away. Losing at home to division rivals has become a tradition at this point.

2008 vs Buffalo: L 23-30 Cutler throws an interception and no TD's and misses a would-be game-tying, wide open Stokely TD in the endzone. Broncos defense actually gets some stops but Denver can't score in the clutch. Team members are seen weeping in the locker room knowing that their season is over.

2008 @ Chargers: L 21-52 Another nationally televised beat down where we're embarrassed for the whole nation, something of a theme for us at this point. The Chargers offense averages 13 points a quarter. After scoring a TD and then missing the extra point twice in a row, Denver does nothing until garbage time. Another "team wasn't ready" comment followed by Shanahan having to eat his guarantee of the playoffs at the beginning of the season. As if things weren't bad enough, Shanahan insists his friend Bob Slowick will return to run the defense in the 2009 season.

Now we've averaged 8-8 for the last three years. Shanahan gets credit for our wins but there have been a large number of really embarrassing beat-downs. I believe that in the first year, record wise there probably won't be much difference between McDaniels and Shanny. However I think we'll be a far more consistent and competitive team. I think if we lose it won't be by 40 point margins but by 3-10. And I think our team will be more physical and tougher. If this is what we look like at the end of the year and the records are the same, I'll consider McDaniels an upgrade over the recent coaching of Mike Shanahan.

That was very Chiefs fan of you Kaylor... excellent job of cherry picking some games and then just assigning blame on the head coach. :thumbs:

I'd ask you to do the same thing for McDaniels, but that would be pretty tough since he has never been a head coach before.

The fact is, it is insulting to pretend that our rookie head coach is an improvement over the best coach the Denver Broncos ever had. He's never done it and until he does this argument is rediculous.

Until this kid proves otherwise Shanahan still gets my respect.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 01:02 PM
It's amazing how people underestimate how good of a coach Shanny was. You simply can't tell me he has been winning all these games the past 10 years simply because he has more talent as his disposal. The fact that very few starters that have been released by the Broncos have gone on to do anything of note anywhere else is pretty telling.

The Broncos almost always lose one game a year they shouldn't if you look solely at the talent in the field, but they win two or three they should lose as a result of their superior scheme and preparation.


Shanny is a good HC I don't disagree at all. I do think your overvalue Shanny whole package HC/GM.

Any talent issues blame went to: DC Where is should have went: Shanny
If you go by first half of the season Shanny is HOF HC picking 25-32
If you look at 2nd half of the season we are picking in top 5
Which equates to 7-9 wins.
If I was a owner I'd be the calling Shanny with a talented D in place
I would not call him rebuilding a team like we are now.

Beantown Bronco
06-30-2009, 01:05 PM
Shanny is a good HC I don't disagree at all. I do think your overvalue Shanny whole package HC/GM.

How exactly did I do this? I did not for one second make one mention of the "whole package". I discussed solely his skills as a head coach without getting into any sliver of his role as a GM. I was very deliberate in doing that.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 01:07 PM
How exactly did I do this? I did not for one second make one mention of the "whole package". I discussed solely his skills as a head coach without getting into any sliver of his role as a GM. I was very deliberate in doing that.


My bad I apologize for my error.

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 01:18 PM
That was very Chiefs fan of you Kaylor... excellent job of cherry picking some games and then just assigning blame on the head coach. :thumbs:

I'd ask you to do the same thing for McDaniels, but that would be pretty tough since he has never been a head coach before.

The fact is, it is insulting to pretend that our rookie head coach is an improvement over the best coach the Denver Broncos ever had. He's never done it and until he does this argument is rediculous.

Until this kid proves otherwise Shanahan still gets my respect.

Shanahan has my love and respect and always will for the Super Bowls and good football he brought to Denver. However no one can argue that the last three years haven't been very disappointing. I'm not arguing Shanahan isn't a good coach. Nor am I saying McDanields is better than Shanahan in his prime. I'm saying McDaniels could be an upgrade because of what Shanahan had become. You think I'm being a chief fan for pointing to the embarrassing loses but to me they were really upsetting and humiliating.

You want to look at the whole? Fine:
oooooRecordooooOFF(Points) DEF(Points)
2006: 9-7oooooo17thooooooo8th (Larry Coyer fired)
2007: 7-9oooooo21stooooooo28th
2008: 8-8oooooo16thooooooo30th

So that's the aggregate. Now how can you tell me that for the last three years we have been anything besides below average? I don't "know" that McDaniels will be better than Shanahan and certainly I don't expect anyone to have the career Shanahan did, but saying McDaniels could be better than we've been the last three years is not a tall order. It's basically asking to be better than average which is perfectly acceptable.

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 01:21 PM
If you go by first half of the season Shanny is HOF HC picking 25-32
If you look at 2nd half of the season we are picking in top 5.

Thanks, those are interesting numbers.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 01:25 PM
24-24 in three seasons would be a wet dream for the Lions.

Is 24-24 satisfactory for our standards or should it be? NO

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 01:28 PM
Thanks, those are interesting numbers.

I was hoping you'd post the numbers BB but, I think fans get the idea.

gunns
06-30-2009, 01:30 PM
Well, since it was Cris Carter I think we can anticipate winning the SB. The last time that guy was right with a prediction was......I don't believe he ever has been right. He can't even do a decent job of picking games each week.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Shanahan has my love and respect and always will for the Super Bowls and good football he brought to Denver. However no one can argue that the last three years haven't been very disappointing. I'm not arguing Shanahan isn't a good coach. Nor am I saying McDanields is better than Shanahan in his prime. I'm saying McDaniels could be an upgrade because of what Shanahan had become. You think I'm being a chief fan for pointing to the embarrassing loses but to me they were really upsetting and humiliating.

You want to look at the whole? Fine:
oooooRecordooooDEF(Points) OFF(Points)
2006: 9-7oooooo17thooooooo8th
2007: 7-9oooooo21stooooooo28th
2008: 8-8oooooo16thooooooo30th

So that's the aggregate. Now how can you tell me that for the last three years we have been anything besides below average? I don't "know" that McDaniels will be better than Shanahan and certainly I don't expect anyone to have the career Shanahan did, but saying McDaniels could be better than we've been the last three years is not a tall order. It's basically asking to be better than average which is perfectly acceptable.

Is it possible... Of course it is.

It's also possible that a rookie QB can be drafted and lead their team to the playoffs their first year. Problem is, it almost never happens.

You say these last 3 years were his worst... IMO they were some of his best. He completely made over the roster and was winning games with an offense made almost entirely out of 1st, 2nd, & 3rd year players. That's a tall order for any coach.

Did Shanahan have a blindspot when it came to the defense... Yes.

Did he make a monumental mistake of firing Coyer, hiring Bates only to fire him and give the job to Slowit... Yes

Did Shanahan the GM get Shanahan the coach fired... YES

But none of those take away from the fact that he was a fantastic game day coach, one of the better game planners in the business, and had assembled one hell of an offensive team.

Until McKidd shows me what he can do as a head coach I think it's insulting to casually say he is an improvement over Shanny. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it ;D

JJJ
06-30-2009, 01:39 PM
That remains to be seen.

Since Kubiak and Coyer left both units have been full of fail. And how about these "awesome" games, many at home?

2006 vs Chargers: L 27-35 We're up by 20+ and then implode

2006 vs 49ers: L 23-26 We have to win to make the playoffs and choke it all away.

2007 vs Chargers: L 3-41 Yeah that's right: We scored three points in the worst home loss in Broncos history since the sixties. Shanahan famously said "The team wasn't ready and that's my fault." A line he would repeat several times this season and next.

2007 @ Detroit: L 7-44 Yeah that's right: We got completely destroyed by the Detroit Lions. A team that would finish 7-9 and the following year go winless. Shanny repeats his "wasn't ready" comment in the post came conference. AWESOME coaching! ;)

2007 @ Houston: L 31-13 The 8-8 Texans beat us down on national TV. Colinsworth famously points out "The Houston Texans look more like the Denver Broncos than the Broncos do." How right he was. We hadn't looked like ourselves since 2005.

2007 @ San Diego: L 3-23 The Broncos avenge their earlier home embarrassment by cutting the Boltz lead in half! It does however take us an extra 15 minutes to score our mighty field goal this time.

2008 @ KC: L 33-19 Denver goes in cocky and promptly turns the ball over several times as a broken Larry Johnson runs all over Denver. Even in the waning moments with the game within reach the team folds like toilet paper in the clutch. KC Records one of their two wins for the entire season.

2008 @ NE: L 7-41 Denver gets a beat down of epic proportions on MNF. All are witness to the lousiness of the team. Highlights: On third and nineteen with Cassal pinned on his own goal line, as he's rolling out to dump off what will likely be a ten yard gain and force a punting situation, Jamie Winborn reaches up deliberately yanks Cassal's face mask preserving the drive that ultimately results in a touchdown. Also: Hall's consecutive fumbles! Epic. Shanahan, you guessed it, apologizes for the team "not being ready to play" again in the press conference.

2008 Vs Oakland: L 10-31 Cutler is out drinking the night before and after a solid drive fumbles on the goal line turning the ball over to the Raiders who eventually steal the game our postseason hopes away. Losing at home to division rivals has become a tradition at this point.

2008 vs Buffalo: L 23-30 Cutler throws an interception and no TD's and misses a would-be game-tying, wide open Stokely TD in the endzone. Broncos defense actually gets some stops but Denver can't score in the clutch. Team members are seen weeping in the locker room knowing that their season is over.

2008 @ Chargers: L 21-52 Another nationally televised beat down where we're embarrassed for the whole nation, something of a theme for us at this point. The Chargers offense averages 13 points a quarter. After scoring a TD and then missing the extra point twice in a row, Denver does nothing until garbage time. Another "team wasn't ready" comment followed by Shanahan having to eat his guarantee of the playoffs at the beginning of the season. As if things weren't bad enough, Shanahan insists his friend Bob Slowick will return to run the defense in the 2009 season.

Now we've averaged 8-8 for the last three years. Shanahan gets credit for our wins but there have been a large number of really embarrassing beat-downs. I believe that in the first year, record wise there probably won't be much difference between McDaniels and Shanny. However I think we'll be a far more consistent and competitive team. I think if we lose it won't be by 40 point margins but by 3-10. And I think our team will be more physical and tougher. If this is what we look like at the end of the year and the records are the same, I'll consider McDaniels an upgrade over the recent coaching of Mike Shanahan.


Most rational lucid post on this board in a long time. The criteria for rating McDaniels are valid and fair.

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 01:44 PM
I think it's insulting to casually say he is an improvement over Shanny.
I never say anything "casually" especially when it's something like the head coach of my favorite football team. Regardless, its premature to say "McDaniels isn't better" when training camp, let alone the season, hasn't even started. And I don't think predicting improvement from where we've been in recent years to be any kind of miracle wish.

However you're free to find anything you like insulting, and I won't try to argue what you should and should not.

DrFate
06-30-2009, 01:47 PM
An objective view of this team

QB - worse
RB - better once Moreno gets on the field, I have no faith in the rest of those bubs
WR - Marshall makes this case. I'd be pretty fretful to see the starters being Royal, Stokely, and Brandon Lloyd. If Marshall stays it is the same corps as last year.
OLine - brightest spot on the team

Defense - face it, this team doesn't have the personnel to play a 3-4 and it is happening anyway. How anyone sees the D as improved I can't understand.

Coaching - huge drop. You guy from a HOF type guy with a ton of game experience to somebody who will probably lose a game or two just by rookie mistakes. It happens every time a guy gets his first job. Clock management, challenges, etc.

The schedule is a terror. Anyone who says any different simply hasn't looked at the schedule.

I won't say this team will earn the #1 pick. But I already have money on this team having a top 10 pick and could be top #5.

montrose
06-30-2009, 01:50 PM
Kaylore hit it out of the park.

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Broncos downgrade: QB, maybe one WR.

Broncos maintain: OLine

Broncos Upgrade: RB (assuming they stay healthy), maybe only marginally, but the entire D should be better.

Considering that we had two glaring weaknesses last year - red zone scoring and Defense - an upgrade at RB and revamped D and D strategy cannot hurt us and should equal out a missing QB (IMO) who couldn't get it done in the redzone.

I think the Broncos at worst are equal to the Broncos of last year.

i agree. at worst we go 7-9 and pick right about the same area next season, or we are better than last season. we didn't lose so much that we are doomed.
Jay had talent but still only led us to 16th in scoring. Orton can match that output with a steady running game, and a good line to protect him, with or without Marshall.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 01:57 PM
I never say anything "casually" especially when it's something like the head coach of my favorite football team. Regardless, its premature to say "McDaniels isn't better" when training camp, let alone the season, hasn't even started. And I don't think predicting improvement from where we've been in recent years to be any kind of miracle wish.

However you're free to find anything you like insulting, and I won't try to argue what you should and should not.

This thread is going to have to get bumped when our rookie coach inevitably acts like a rookie coach... It will be funny to watch everyone requalify their positions.

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 01:59 PM
This thread is going to have to get bumped when our rookie coach inevitably acts like a rookie coach... It will be funny to watch everyone requalify their positions.

True dat homes.....

400HZ
06-30-2009, 02:05 PM
I usually respect your posts, that has changed with the above garbage, to put the broncos in that group is baffling

Sorry, just my honest opinion. You guys have some big pieces on offense but your defense looks to me like it's going to be epicly terrible. Your new coach hasn't exactly exuded brilliance thus far, either. Throw a murderous schedule in on top of that. I think St Louis, Detroit, Oakland, and Denver will win around 4 games a piece this season.

bombquixote
06-30-2009, 02:07 PM
wont happen, broncos will never get enough compensation to justify trading him.

Doesn't mean he won't hold out for a new deal. Something tells me BM is stupid like that.

bombquixote
06-30-2009, 02:08 PM
No way BMarsh holds out and loose 2.2 mil, unless his agent is willing to float him a couple of million. :~ohyah!:

Dude, I so hope you are right.

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 02:08 PM
My position is I think McD will be a good HC (In Time) I do not expect it in 09 due to inexperience and changes. I hope to see progression and growth throughtout season without being unrealistic about record.

I expect 4-7 wins

I think 8 or more wins would be a bloody miracle in 09 but, it would prove our coaching staff is better and that we are headed in right direction. I like the idea of the staff actually teaching the players not relying on them to do it on their own.

broncofan2438
06-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Sorry, just my honest opinion. You guys have some big pieces on offense but your defense looks to me like it's going to be epicly terrible. Your new coach hasn't exactly exuded brilliance thus far, either. Throw a murderous schedule in on top of that. I think St Louis, Detroit, Oakland, and Denver will win around 4 games a piece this season.

Ouch man......well, time to turn some heads then

montrose
06-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Josh McDaniels has assembled a coaching staff so far superior to the previous one the Broncos will see a tremendous improvement across the board. Not only will Mike Nolan be a fantasic DC, but the positional coaches will help the players reach their maximum potential.

On offense, McDaniels led the best unit in league history and got tremendous production last season while modifying his philosophy on the fly. I expect Kyle Orton to be extremely productive running this offense similar to what he ran in college. Orton will be tasked with completeing screen passes and intermediate routes while lulling defenses to sleep before being challenged to hit possibly one big pass a game. Under the protection a fabulous offensive line with solid route runners a talented feature back, I believe the Broncos offense will be extremely productive and will finish higher than 16th (last year's ranking) in offensive scoring - the stat that matters.

Defensivly, I expect a much smarter team that will have practiced situational football. Nolan's schemes will be strong each week and under the tutuledge of a great assistant staff - we'll see unbelievable development from our current players. The weak spot will remain the DL, however I expect a rotation of Fields, Thomas, Powell, Peterson, McBean and Clemons to suprise. Under the coaching of Wayne Nunnely, we'll get the best out of these players who will overachieve to levels of competency. At the LB spots, DJ Williams should flourish at WILB which will allow him to attack plays and do what he does best while Andra Davis will be a solid stop-gap with his leadership and smart play. On the outsides, Robert Ayers is a freak who can be used in several positions and put pressure on the QB while Elvis Dumervil should be freed up to rush the passer without being worn down as much in the run game. The secondary will greatly benefit from the leadership and experience of Brian Dawkins who, along with Renaldo Hill, greatly improves the Broncos weakest position last year. Meanwhile, Andre Goodman is a very solid #2 CB who should do his part in preventing the big play with Alphonso Smith is an absolute ballhawk who I expect to garner more than a few turnovers under the tremendous coaching of Ed Donatell.

The special teams will be improved thanks to players like Smith, Darcel McBath and David Bruton joining Wesley Woodyard and Spencer Larsen in their second years. Matt Prater has also kicked for a full season and I expect him to be more consistent. In addition, the Patriots are known for a deep dedication of special teams practice which I expect to translate well in comparison to the half-@$$ special teams practice many of us attended during evening training camp sessions.

Finally, I sense a renewed energy with the Broncos and for the first time in a long time - a team-first mentality which Jim Armstrong confirmed was missing from the Broncos in recent seasons. I expect gameplans to change on a week-to-week basis while the Broncos will no longer overlook opponents or come into matchups "unprepared" as was admitted by their previous head coach who in his final press conference stated "I didn't get the job done."

I can't wait for the season to begin and the team-first, hardworking and most importantly - smart - Denver Broncos to take the field. My prediction, 12 wins to 4 losses and a trip to the divisional round of the playoffs.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Sorry, just my honest opinion. You guys have some big pieces on offense but your defense looks to me like it's going to be epicly terrible. Your new coach hasn't exactly exuded brilliance thus far, either. Throw a murderous schedule in on top of that. I think St Louis, Detroit, Oakland, and Denver will win around 4 games a piece this season.

Even if you don't agree with some of mcd's personnel decisions (and how much control he has is still not clear), to equate that with his ability to coach is just plain wrong. So unless you were there at minicamp and didn't like the way he was coaching (and you weren't), your comment is invalid.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-30-2009, 02:17 PM
I think it might be a rough year simply because we have two completely new schemes to learn. There will be natural growing pains, but hopefully a lot of improvment throughout the year.

BroncoBuff
06-30-2009, 02:18 PM
I usually respect your posts, that has changed with the above garbage, to put the broncos in that group is baffling
I'm not sure why you use a term like "garbage." The defense could easily be as bad as last year ... EASILY. Our D-line is a complete mess, and half our linbackers are converting from DE this season.

The offense is entirely new, and very very complicated. Marshall might not heal up in time for the opener, and ever if he dose, how well will he know the offense?

The O-line is a rock in a sea of change ... and because of it I think we stay outta the cellar. But if a couple O-linemen go down, realistically we're a 3-5 win team.

oubronco
06-30-2009, 02:30 PM
realistically I think we're there regardless

TonyR
06-30-2009, 03:25 PM
This thread is going to have to get bumped when our rookie coach inevitably acts like a rookie coach... It will be funny to watch everyone requalify their positions.

Why? Most aren't saying McD is better, just that it's far too early to say he's not. One thing we do know is that Shanahan hasn't produced over the last several years like he did earlier in his career in Denver and that some of you haven't yet figured this out.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 03:26 PM
True dat homes.....

Changing our tune, are we? I know you're not excited about McD the GM, but now you're sounding as if you're also not excited about McD the coach. Hmmm.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 03:34 PM
You say these last 3 years were his worst... IMO they were some of his best. He completely made over the roster and was winning games with an offense made almost entirely out of 1st, 2nd, & 3rd year players. That's a tall order for any coach.


I don't know about that. As Kaylore's post clearly illustrated, this team was inconsistent, unprepared, and non competitive far too often over the last few years. The offense often started well and then when stale. The team often started strong and then stumbled. They were often left scrambling for desperation fixes during the season. My hunch is that McD will have this team prepared and competitive week in and week out, but due to all the changes it won't always translate to wins this season.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 03:54 PM
I gotta disagree with you. McKidd is only 33 years old and is a rookie HC in the NFL. That alone is a large hurddle to overcome. Shanny's first HCing job was with OAK back in 1988 and he was a 36 year old rookie HC and in the first year he went 7-9 and the second year he went 1-3 before Al Davis fired him. Thats an 8-12 record. Guess where Shanny ended up coaching after getting fired by the Raiders!!!! He returned to the Broncos and got his old position back! Could the same fate be waiting for McD? Could Bowlen jettison McD after 2 or 3 full seasons, and McD finds himself back as OC for the Patriots?? Who knows, weirder thinkgs have happened in the NFL.

thats exactly what i said. i said OC, as in before they were HC's. shanahan was a great OC, mcdaniels is a great OC, this is almost an exact replica of when shanny was hired. shanny was great when he kept his hands off the defense, just like mcd is doing this year (he is helping draft, but i have a feeling nolan is helping a lot-nothing to back that up with though)

just like i said, i cant gaurantee hell be a great HC, but he is a great OC, just like shanahan was in his day

DarkHorse30
06-30-2009, 04:10 PM
Compared to a rookie head coach... yes Shanahan is better.

Maybe one day McKidd will prove to be the next Vince Lombardi but right now it's just blind homerism to even put this kid in Shanny's league.

Speaking of homerism, Shanahan was outcoached by Norv Turner, Herm Edwards and Tom Cable last year......

NYBronco
06-30-2009, 04:14 PM
Aren't Chris Carter and BM friends? So maybe these schlubs actually know something about where BM stands.

I smell a holdout.

Yes, they are good friends and Chris Carter has taken BM under his wing and is helping him become a better WR. Chris was subbing for Mike Golic on the Mike and Mike show Monday morning and they talked alot about BM.

DBroncos4life
06-30-2009, 04:16 PM
The only way we have the number one pick is if the Bears blow ass cause otherwise the Hawks would have it. :welcome:

eddie mac
06-30-2009, 04:17 PM
Why is this directed at me (or is it)? I didn't say anything about the Broncos being the worst in the league. I think if there is anyone in the division who will be competing for the #1 pick it will be KC.

Looking at the Broncos schedule though, I'll say 6-10 at best. 8')

Does that include taking at least one game from your team that just managed to get off it's knees last year due to a fluffed onside kick???

eddie mac
06-30-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure why you use a term like "garbage." The defense could easily be as bad as last year ... EASILY. Our D-line is a complete mess, and half our linbackers are converting from DE this season.

The offense is entirely new, and very very complicated. Marshall might not heal up in time for the opener, and ever if he dose, how well will he know the offense?

The O-line is a rock in a sea of change ... and because of it I think we stay outta the cellar. But if a couple O-linemen go down, realistically we're a 3-5 win team.

Could be, that is if we lose the whole defensive backfield to injury and 1/2 the linebacking crew.

This defense will be 5-10 pts better off, just wait and see.

boltaneer
06-30-2009, 04:26 PM
Does that include taking at least one game from your team that just managed to get off it's knees last year due to a fluffed onside kick???

Well, that is offset by a flubbed ref call at the end of the game. :flower:

TheDave
06-30-2009, 05:12 PM
Speaking of homerism, Shanahan was outcoached by Norv Turner, Herm Edwards and Tom Cable last year......

And McDaniels wasn't outcoached by anyone... 'Cause he has never been a head coach.

Why is this so tough for some people?

DBroncos4life
06-30-2009, 05:17 PM
And McDaniels wasn't outcoached by anyone... 'Cause he has never been a head coach.

Why is this so tough for some people?

Because true homers understand that its way cooler to be a homer and think that a guy that is a rookie can do better then a guy with 15 plus years as a HC.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 05:21 PM
Because true homers understand that its way cooler to be a homer and think that a guy that is a rookie can do better then a guy with 15 plus years as a HC.

Seriously it's like this place went nuts as soon as shanny was fired...

Orton > Cutler

McDaniels > Shanahan

Anyone curently on the roster > anyone not named Elway

TonyR
06-30-2009, 05:27 PM
Because true homers understand that its way cooler to be a homer and think that a guy that is a rookie can do better then a guy with 15 plus years as a HC.

Right, because Jimmy Johnson failed after Tom Landry, and Bill Cowher failed after Chuck Noll. More recently? John Harbaugh failed after Brian Billick. Seriously, what kind of idiot homers could ever assume that a rookie coach could possibly succeed!

TheDave
06-30-2009, 05:33 PM
Right, because Jimmy Johnson failed after Tom Landry, and Bill Cowher failed after Chuck Noll. More recently? John Harbaugh failed after Brian Billick. Seriously, what kind of idiot homers could ever assume that a rookie coach could possibly succeed!

Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 after Landry...

TonyR
06-30-2009, 05:38 PM
Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 after Landry...

Keep looking. What happened after that? Keep looking. Keep backing yourself into that corner. Just a little further...

TheDave
06-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Keep looking. What happened after that? Keep looking. Keep backing yourself into that corner. Just a little further...

We are talking about this year genius... reread the thread.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Because true homers understand that its way cooler to be a homer and think that a guy that is a rookie can do better then a guy with 15 plus years as a HC.

no one said he is gauranteed to do better, excuse us for being excited at the prospect of a 33 year old offensive genius running the team and possibly getting us somewhere we havent been in awhile.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 05:43 PM
We are talking about this year genius... reread the thread.

So if the McD coached Denver Broncos go 1-15 this year, 2-14 next year, and then wins 3 Super Bowls, McD has been a failure? Is that what you're saying? You're going to judge him on one year?

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 05:54 PM
So if the McD coached Denver Broncos go 1-15 this year, 2-14 next year, and then wins 3 Super Bowls, McD has been a failure? Is that what you're saying? You're going to judge him on one year?

If he goes 1-15 this year, he ain't gettin another year.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 05:57 PM
If he goes 1-15 this year, he ain't gettin another year.

wanna bet :afro:

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:00 PM
wanna bet :afro:

Nice to see you admitting 1-15 is a very real possibility.

Let's see...

Replacing a HoF coach
Fired our personnel guys
Dumped Cutler
May dump our other young probowler
The media's already digging this guy's grave

And you think he could survive a 1-15 season?

Hilarious!

Yes, sure.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 06:03 PM
Nice to see you admitting 1-15 is a very real possibility.

Let's see...

Replacing a HoF coach
Fired our personnel guys
Dumped Cutler
May dump our other young probowler
The media's already digging this guy's grave

And you think he could survive a 1-15 season?

Hilarious!

Yes, sure.

no possible way they go 1-15, not with the offensive talent the team has. however, lets say somehow they did go 1-15, yes he would get another year simply based on the fact that bowlen is going "all in" with mcdaniels.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:07 PM
no possible way they go 1-15, not with the offensive talent the team has. however, lets say somehow they did go 1-15, yes he would get another year simply based on the fact that bowlen is going "all in" with mcdaniels.

When's the last time a coach did so terribly and kept his job?

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 06:15 PM
When's the last time a coach did so terribly and kept his job?

i consider anything 3 or less wins to be equally bad, as to lose 13+ games, some are to be decided by weird calls/refs/super close games, which is exactly what happened to teh chiefs the last 2 years. lost like 5 games by 3 or less points. however, many coaches have had 2 wins and kept their jobs. i dunno about 1 win, rod got fired ans did cam, dunno about the 90s. their situations were different, they didnt come in and have to trade the QB, switch defenses while having no talent etc. hell get minimum 2 years to show improvement.

Br0nc0Buster
06-30-2009, 06:20 PM
When's the last time a coach did so terribly and kept his job?

well apparently Jimmy Johnson did it

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:23 PM
i consider anything 3 or less wins to be equally bad, as to lose 13+ games, some are to be decided by weird calls/refs/super close games, which is exactly what happened to teh chiefs the last 2 years. lost like 5 games by 3 or less points. however, many coaches have had 2 wins and kept their jobs. i dunno about 1 win, rod got fired ans did cam, dunno about the 90s. their situations were different, they didnt come in and have to trade the QB, switch defenses while having no talent etc. hell get minimum 2 years to show improvement.

Well I'm sure that your opinion would stop Denver from being the laughing stock of the NFL, especially without our draft pick, and that magically your opinion will insulate McDaniels from being fired.

In reality, you're just stupid.

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Seriously it's like this place went nuts as soon as shanny was fired...

Orton > Cutler

McDaniels > Shanahan

Anyone curently on the roster > anyone not named Elway

Now you're re-imagining things. The only people who flatly stated that one is better than the other is the Shanahan/Cutler fans who are pissed about the changes. I haven't seen anyone making a case for Orton being successful argue he is more talented or superior to Cutler. I've heard them make the wins argument and suggest his better line and offensive supporting cast here will allow Orton thrive, but that's not the same thing.

And no one is saying McDaniels > Shanahan. What they are saying is Shanahan's team the last three years = mediocre, soft and iconsistent, yea even wildly inconsistent. We would dominate teams and get thoroughly dominated. We would hang and beat some good playoff teams and then fold against crappy ones. We would win impossible games on the road across three timezones and then lose at home after a bye - all in one season! It was kind of fun but ultimately when we had to win to make the playoffs we would come up pathetically short. Often it only required us beating a garbage team at home like the niners or Buffalo and we couldn't hack it. 8-8. Sometimes it's time for a guy to move on and it doesn't mean the guy is a bad coach or the next guy is "better", it's just time to move on.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 06:27 PM
Well I'm sure that your opinion would stop Denver from being the laughing stock of the NFL, especially without our draft pick, and that magically your opinion will insulate McDaniels from being fired.

In reality, you're just stupid.

i love how when you realize you are wrong, you just start calling names.

given the fact that i dont think its possible for denver to win only 1 game. that takes a special case of no talent all over the field on all 3 phases. we have good talent on both sides of the ball, you cant really question that. so with all that talent, josh mcdaniels (the same guy who has like 3 rings, 2 of them running the patriots offense) running our offense and mike nolan running the defense, you really think we are only going to win 1 game?

DBroncos4life
06-30-2009, 06:28 PM
Right, because Jimmy Johnson failed after Tom Landry, and Bill Cowher failed after Chuck Noll. More recently? John Harbaugh failed after Brian Billick. Seriously, what kind of idiot homers could ever assume that a rookie coach could possibly succeed!

So you bring three names to the table when talking about new coaches replacing legends? The Phins have gone through how many coaches since Shula left. The Skins went 4-12 the year after Gibbs retired and they have went through plenty of coaches. Yeah the owner doesn't help but still. How many coaches have the Bills fired since Marv Levy left?

Also Bill Cowher has been a player or coach in the NFL since 1979. Brian Billick started coaching in 1978. Jimmy Johnson's coaching career started in 1965. John Harbaugh started his coaching career in 1984. All of those coaches had damn near 20 years of coaching under their belts before becoming a HC.

Josh could be great but he has had only 8 years of coaching in the NFL level, one more at college. 9 years coaching experience total and you want to compare him to those guys. lol

TheDave
06-30-2009, 06:29 PM
So if the McD coached Denver Broncos go 1-15 this year, 2-14 next year, and then wins 3 Super Bowls, McD has been a failure? Is that what you're saying? You're going to judge him on one year?

Seriously, would you try and keep up. Here are some Cliff notes.

Everyone but you is talking about next season... only.

Some of us, including me, have argued that McDaniels will NOT in his 1st year be an upgrade over Shanahan...

Some, including you, have argued he will be an upgrade...

You cited the bang up job Jimmy Johnson did in his 1st year (1-15) as evedence to back you POV...

Now your trying to change the argument to include 5 imaginary seasons and 3 imaginary superbowls...

AGAIN... EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT NEXT SEASON. NOT 2013...

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:32 PM
i love how when you realize you are wrong, you just start calling names.

given the fact that i dont think its possible for denver to win only 1 game. that takes a special case of no talent all over the field on all 3 phases. we have good talent on both sides of the ball, you cant really question that. so with all that talent, josh mcdaniels (the same guy who has like 3 rings, 2 of them running the patriots offense) running our offense and mike nolan running the defense, you really think we are only going to win 1 game?

Ummmm, no sir.

The premise was 1-15. Not what you or I believe it will be. You're changing your statement.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 06:32 PM
wanna bet :afro:

I don't think they will go 1-15... BUT... if they do, he should be fired. Especially after giving away our #1 to Seattle.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:34 PM
I don't think they will go 1-15... BUT... if they do, he should be fired, especially after giving away our #1 to Seattle.

I covered all this. Don't let him suck you into a retarded argument. I'm already in here.... SAVE YOURSELF, MY FRIEND!

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 06:35 PM
Ummmm, no sir.

The premise was 1-15. Not what you or I believe it will be. You're changing your statement.

the fact that they arent going to go 1-15, why does this matter argument? even if they do, its unlikely he will be fired based simply on economics if nothing else, pat is not paying 3 coaches salaries.

Kaylore
06-30-2009, 06:44 PM
I could see McDaniels getting fired if he has less than five wins but I could also see him staying. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 06:53 PM
the fact that they arent going to go 1-15, why does this matter argument? even if they do, its unlikely he will be fired based simply on economics if nothing else, pat is not paying 3 coaches salaries.

Take that question to the mirror and ask it.

Remember?

If he goes 1-15 this year, he ain't gettin another year.

wanna bet :afro:

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 06:55 PM
Take that question to the mirror and ask it.

Remember?

just because i bit doesnt mean the argument has any meaning. what if we trade ryan clady? what if we switch DCs in preseason? what if pat bowlen sold the team in november?

we can talk about 100,000 things that, i guess, are possible, but arent going to happen.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 07:26 PM
just because i bit doesnt mean the argument has any meaning. what if we trade ryan clady? what if we switch DCs in preseason? what if pat bowlen sold the team in november?

we can talk about 100,000 things that, i guess, are possible, but arent going to happen.

I'm unsure of how you can be this slow.

Part 1: The premise was set by Tony and TheDave's discussion about JJ and his 1-15 season.

Part 2: I added that if we go 1-15, he won't be coaching another season for the Broncos.

Part 3: You turned this into an argument that it wasn't.

I'm sorry. You created this abomination of a discussion. Read it over and over again until you realize that. I do NOT believe Denver will only win 1 game. I DO, however, think it will be 5 at the very MOST.

UberBroncoMan
06-30-2009, 07:27 PM
Lucky Seahawks.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 08:00 PM
Everyone but you is talking about next season... only.

Some of us, including me, have argued that McDaniels will NOT in his 1st year be an upgrade over Shanahan...

Some, including you, have argued he will be an upgrade...


I don't recall those rules being stated at the beginning of this discussion.

I never specifically said McD would be an upgrade over Shanny. But even if McD does "fail" this season, how do we know Shanny wouldn't have done just as poorly?

What it boils down to is this: you say McD won't be an upgrade, I say it's possible that he will. My position is stronger because it allows for both possibilities whereas yours doesn't. Again, as before, you've painted yourself into a corner.

TonyR
06-30-2009, 08:06 PM
So you bring three names to the table when talking about new coaches replacing legends?

You made the blanket statement that a "rookie" coach can't succeed. I showed you some examples of some who did, and I could show you plenty more. Realizing you're wrong, you've decided to backpedal and change the argument to experience instead of being a rookie. When I show you some inexperienced coaches who have succeeded, do you have your next fallback argument prepared?

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 08:07 PM
I'm unsure of how you can be this slow.

Part 1: The premise was set by Tony and TheDave's discussion about JJ and his 1-15 season.

Part 2: I added that if we go 1-15, he won't be coaching another season for the Broncos.

Part 3: You turned this into an argument that it wasn't.

I'm sorry. You created this abomination of a discussion. Read it over and over again until you realize that. I do NOT believe Denver will only win 1 game. I DO, however, think it will be 5 at the very MOST.

i said they will never have a 1-15 record, but if they do he will not get fired. i still dont understand the purpose of arguing about how bad you think the broncos will be.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 08:44 PM
I don't recall those rules being stated at the beginning of this discussion.

I never specifically said McD would be an upgrade over Shanny. But even if McD does "fail" this season, how do we know Shanny wouldn't have done just as poorly?

What it boils down to is this: you say McD won't be an upgrade, I say it's possible that he will. My position is stronger because it allows for both possibilities whereas yours doesn't. Again, as before, you've painted yourself into a corner.

Rules?

It's called reading comprehension... We were talking about 09 you decided to stretch it to 2013 to make you Jimmy Johnson mistake look credible. Yet now you are declaring victory because your POV is a definitive "Maybe" ???


WOW...Sorry I wasted my time.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 08:46 PM
Rules?

It's called reading comprehension... We were talking about 09 you decided to stretch it to 2013 to make you Jimmy Johnson mistake look credible. Yet now you are declaring victory because your point is a definitive "Maybe" ???


Sorry I wasted my time...

how are either of you declaring victory making predictions about a team that has SO many question marks? they could have a great year or could get 4 wins, its more open this year than it has been in a long time.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 08:52 PM
how are either of you declaring victory making predictions about a team that has SO many question marks? they could have a great year or could get 4 wins, its more open this year than it has been in a long time.

What are you talking about?

All I have said is that we took a step back with our QB and HC and that we would not finish dead last and earn the #1 pick.

Since then I've been defending my crazy assed position that it is a step backwards from a superbowl winning HC with nearly 30 years in this league to a 33 year old rookie...

Logic like that use to fly on this board...

Bronco Yoda
06-30-2009, 08:53 PM
I simply refuse to believe we are a 4 win team let alone picking 1st in the draft. I see us at around 8-8 again... regardless of the QB,coach, WR debacle. mark it down.

Archer81
06-30-2009, 08:56 PM
Bought Sporting News NFL preview for 2009. Has us at 5-11 and 3rd in the AFC West. I dont think we are going to be that bad, because the moves we made this offseason made us a run first team. If that is the case it will protect a defense in transition. I dont see a 13-3 season, but 8 or 9 wins seem possible.

:Broncos:

DivineBronco
06-30-2009, 08:58 PM
the most exciting thing about watching the bears this season and thus watching for the draft pick is....have you seen Cutlers backup QB's. It is AWESOME....we are one Jared Allen snapping his leg in half play away from the first pick of the draft

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:00 PM
What are you talking about?

All I have said is that we took a step back with our QB and HC and that we would not finish dead last and earn the #1 pick.

Since then I've been defending my crazy assed position that it is a step backwards from a superbowl winning HC with nearly 30 years in this league to a 33 year old rookie...

Logic like that use to fly on this board...

do you understand the other side of the argument? shanahan was a great HC, there really is no denying that. however the records show, not just a year but the last 10 years, that he has a LOT of average at best seasons. the broncos dont want to be AVERAGE. mcdaniels may flop, but on the flip side, we COULD have scored huge with the next great HC for the broncos. if you are talking about this coming year only, it is pretty easy to say he will have some mistakes as HC because its hits first year on the job. that doesnt gaurantee failure however, as he could bring the NE system here and run it to perfection especially with the oline and WR.

TerrElway
06-30-2009, 09:03 PM
...and I stand by it.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2451010&postcount=22

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:09 PM
...and I stand by it.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2451010&postcount=22

exactly my thoughts :thumbs:

TheDave
06-30-2009, 09:10 PM
do you understand the other side of the argument? shanahan was a great HC, there really is no denying that. however the records show, not just a year but the last 10 years, that he has a LOT of average at best seasons. the broncos dont want to be AVERAGE. mcdaniels may flop, but on the flip side, we COULD have scored huge with the next great HC for the broncos. if you are talking about this coming year only, it is pretty easy to say he will have some mistakes as HC because its hits first year on the job. that doesnt gaurantee failure however, as he could bring the NE system here and run it to perfection especially with the oline and WR.

And there is where the rubber meets the road... the thread is about this year only and the on air predictions for us finishing dead last.

and I said we took a step back for 09... not 2010, 2011, 2012 or any other imaginary season. Just the one that starts in a couple of months.

Not sure why this is throwing people?

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:13 PM
And there is where the rubber meets the road... the thread is about this year only and the on air predictions for us finishing dead last.

and I said we took a step back for 09... not 2010, 2011, 2012 or any other imaginary season. Just the one that starts in a couple of months.

Not sure why this is throwing people?

this year, with mike shanahan as HC, we may have made the playoffs, but remember, the defense was in shambles last year, theres no way he fixes it in time to have a championship defense, same with mcdaniels. the problem is, offensive production died last year after week 3, whos to say he coudl kick start it for a whole season? maybe if shanahan would stop letting off the gas once the team has a lead and go for the neck, we would have won some more games last year.

worm
06-30-2009, 09:17 PM
Not sure why this is throwing people?

Think about that question. Think about the posters. Think about that question.

DBroncos4life
06-30-2009, 09:18 PM
You made the blanket statement that a "rookie" coach can't succeed. I showed you some examples of some who did, and I could show you plenty more. Realizing you're wrong, you've decided to backpedal and change the argument to experience instead of being a rookie. When I show you some inexperienced coaches who have succeeded, do you have your next fallback argument prepared?

I made the blanket statement that a "rookie" HC isn't a step up from a vet HC like Shanny. You brought up coaches that have had experience and lots of it. McD doesn't. Go ahead and dig up some inexperienced coaches who have succeeded in the NFL because its NOT the norm. Hell I can do it for you.
Ken Whisenhunt and Mike Smith are two modern coaches to do just that. Still coaches like Bill Belichick who started coaching in 1975 and didn't become a HC till 1991 and got fired 4 years later. He went back to being a AHC for a few more years learning under the great Bill Parcells some more and poof now he is one of the top coaches in the NFL.

You might be able to find a few story's of success but like I said in the long history of the NFL you are very misplaced about your faith that he is an upgrade over Mike Shanahan

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:26 PM
You might be able to find a few story's of success but like I said in the long history of the NFL you are very misplaced about your faith that he is an upgrade over Mike Shanahan

dude, everyone is saying that its not impossible for him to be a good head coach. no one is saying its gonna be lights out shanahan will be out of our mind by minute 1, but you cant just say mcdaniels will be a failure because a lot of rookie HC are. a lot are successes too, mike tomlin, mike smith, ken wisenhunt, sparano etc, this was just this year too.

its not the end of the world that we have a rookie HC

24champ
06-30-2009, 09:28 PM
I can't wait for the season to begin and the team-first, hardworking and most importantly - smart - Denver Broncos to take the field. My prediction, 12 wins to 4 losses and a trip to the divisional round of the playoffs.

Holy ****....puff puff pass dude!

24champ
06-30-2009, 09:32 PM
This thread is going to have to get bumped when our rookie coach inevitably acts like a rookie coach... It will be funny to watch everyone requalify their positions.

Especially Pat Bowlen.

TheDave
06-30-2009, 09:35 PM
Especially Pat Bowlen.

Pat will say he doesn't remember firing Shanahan... 8')

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 09:36 PM
And there is where the rubber meets the road... the thread is about this year only and the on air predictions for us finishing dead last.

and I said we took a step back for 09... not 2010, 2011, 2012 or any other imaginary season. Just the one that starts in a couple of months.

Not sure why this is throwing people?

What? You mean you can't predict future seasons and what our FA moves, draft picks, etc will look like?

I predict 9 wins in 2010 thanks to some huge plays made by cap casualty Shaun Rogers and our replacement for Tony Scheffler, Antonio Gates.

Just wait till you see what happens in 2011.... WOW!

24champ
06-30-2009, 09:39 PM
Pat will say he doesn't remember firing Shanahan... 8')
No one will get ahold of him. He'll be incognito...


http://www.blacktie-colorado.com/premiere_parties/pics/22118bd56f25441fe81119a55e42fda8.jpg

TheDave
06-30-2009, 09:43 PM
What? You mean you can't predict future seasons and what our FA moves, draft picks, etc will look like?

I predict 9 wins in 2010 thanks to some huge plays made by cap casualty Shaun Rogers and our replacement for Tony Scheffler, Antonio Gates.

Just wait till you see what happens in 2011.... WOW!

Seriously, I thought we were all just having a conversation about this season.

It does say something that the McKidd suporters already want to talk about 2010 and on. ;D

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 09:45 PM
Seriously, I thought we were all just having a conversation about this season.

It does say something that the McKidd suporters already want to talk about 2010 and on. ;D

because no one expects this team to go far this year, hes rebuilding a defense and installing a new offensive system, id say its pretty logical to look to 2010 when the team has a better identity and feel for what they need to be on top.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 09:46 PM
Seriously, I thought we were all just having a conversation about this season.

It does say something that the McKidd suporters already want to talk about 2010 and on. ;D

I despise the jerkoff but I'd actually love to be wrong and have him pull a rabbit out of a hat in a solid season.

Sadly, I think he stacked his own deck WAY against him.

TheReverend
06-30-2009, 09:47 PM
because no one expects this team to go far this year, hes rebuilding a defense and installing a new offensive system, id say its pretty logical to look to 2010 when the team has a better identity and feel for what they need to be on top.

Then logically you'd say it was stupid for him to trade our draft pick for a 2nd rounder this year in a ****ty draft

TheDave
06-30-2009, 09:48 PM
because no one expects this team to go far this year, hes rebuilding a defense and installing a new offensive system, id say its pretty logical to look to 2010 when the team has a better identity and feel for what they need to be on top.

OK... so what is your prediction for THIS season.

The goofs on the radio are predicting 4 wins... me, I'm looking at 6 maybe 7 if Knowshone is as good as I hope he is.

where do you stand?

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 09:50 PM
Seriously, I thought we were all just having a conversation about this season.

It does say something that the McKidd suporters already want to talk about 2010 and on. ;D

I can tell you why we talk past 2009 is lots of changes and alot of talent still needed on this team whether you support McD or not 2009 is transition year. True test of this regime is beyond 2009 because McD isn't going anywhere for min of 2 full seasons. I hate what has happened this offseason too but, I will give this regime a chance while they are here. This team is a mess that needs several offseasons to fix.

SoCalBronco
06-30-2009, 09:51 PM
because no one expects this team to go far this year, , hes rebuilding a defense and installing a new offensive system, id say its pretty logical to look to 2010 when the team has a better identity and feel for what they need to be on top.

Really? Then why have you been constantly telling people to shutup and see "how things go, first" before criticizing?

I'm actually glad though that you have indulged in a rare moment of honesty.

Props. :thumbsup:

TheDave
06-30-2009, 09:54 PM
I can tell you why we talk past 2009 is lots of changes and alot of talent still needed on this team whether you support McD or not 2009 is transition year. True test of this regime is beyond 2009 because McD isn't going anywhere for min of 2 full seasons.

WOW... were were all these honest folks when we traded away our 2010 1st?

24champ
06-30-2009, 09:54 PM
I despise the jerkoff but I'd actually love to be wrong and have him pull a rabbit out of a hat in a solid season.

Sadly, I think he stacked his own deck WAY against him.

That's how I feel... There will be mistakes made for a rookie HC and a learning process for him...couple that with a rebuild going on...yeah it's not going to be a pretty season. I don't see a whole lot changing for the D, I still think our defense is going to be at the bottom of the league and our current QB (Orton) doesn't have the makeup to overcome those weaknesses on D.

24champ
06-30-2009, 09:58 PM
True test of this regime is beyond 2009 because McD isn't going anywhere for min of 2 full seasons.
Wade Phillips says hi.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/58114/phillips.jpg

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 09:59 PM
WOW... were were all these honest folks when we traded away our 2010 1st?


This move did upset me even though I like the player we picked. I just would have rather used pick on front 7 guy or QB in a better draft.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 10:00 PM
Really? Then why have you been constantly telling people to shutup and see "how things go, first" before criticizing?

I'm actually glad though that you have indulged in a rare moment of honesty.

Props. :thumbsup:

because making the playoffs is the goal, nothing more with a team that has a rebuilding defense. my moment of honesty is that "lets wait and see before criticizing". thats all it is and im not gonna start bitching before i know i have something to bitch about.

tsiguy96
06-30-2009, 10:02 PM
OK... so what is your prediction for THIS season.

The goofs on the radio are predicting 4 wins... me, I'm looking at 6 maybe 7 if Knowshone is as good as I hope he is.

where do you stand?

defense has to improve, it really cant get worse. offensive scoring should improve, more/better RBs this year, same oline, QB who can play probably as good as matt cassel did last year, ridiculous schedule that will mask some of the growing the team has done.

7-9 wins most likely, but the whole team will be more competitive in its losses (last year it was, for hte most part, close wins or blowout losses)

NFLBRONCO
06-30-2009, 10:03 PM
Wade Phillips says hi.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/58114/phillips.jpg

If McD is fired in 2 yrs we move on to next guy I'll support him.

worm
06-30-2009, 10:21 PM
McD can stay. As a HC.

Just hire a freakin' real GM instead of a sock puppet.

OrangeRising
06-30-2009, 11:11 PM
no one said he is gauranteed to do better, excuse us for being excited at the prospect of a 33 year old offensive genius running the team and possibly getting us somewhere we havent been in awhile.

Yeah, like 2-14.

Taco John
06-30-2009, 11:52 PM
because no one expects this team to go far this year, hes rebuilding a defense and installing a new offensive system, id say its pretty logical to look to 2010 when the team has a better identity and feel for what they need to be on top.


I sure as hell EXPECT the team to go far this year. If we don't, Pat will have some explaining to do.

TonyR
07-01-2009, 09:13 AM
...I'm looking at 6 maybe 7...

I agree, and my overall point here is that I'm not sure Shanny would have done much better. Either way this team wasn't going anywhere this season, and by "anywhere" I mean winning a playoff game. But I think we're all smart enough, or should be, to understand that a change in coaching staffs, system and personnel can result in a step backward (short term) before taking a leap forwards (longer term). But that's not always the case as the Miami Dolphins and Atlanta Falcons proved last season.

TonyR
07-01-2009, 09:14 AM
I sure as hell EXPECT the team to go far this year.

You do? Did you expect more than one playoff win in the last decade from Shanahan?

Kaylore
07-01-2009, 12:33 PM
I sure as hell EXPECT the team to go far this year. If we don't, Pat will have some explaining to do.

That's an interesting departure from your standard last year. I believe you said "we should expect to lose" or something to that effect and had a laundry list of excuses for why we should expect as much.

TheReverend
07-01-2009, 01:03 PM
I agree, and my overall point here is that I'm not sure Shanny would have done much better. Either way this team wasn't going anywhere this season, and by "anywhere" I mean winning a playoff game. But I think we're all smart enough, or should be, to understand that a change in coaching staffs, system and personnel can result in a step backward (short term) before taking a leap forwards (longer term). But that's not always the case as the Miami Dolphins and Atlanta Falcons proved last season.

You're aware that both teams had massive QB upgrades over their year prior predecessors, right?

Does not apply here.

TonyR
07-01-2009, 01:31 PM
You're aware that both teams had massive QB upgrades over their year prior predecessors, right?


I agree that there are plenty of differences between this Broncos team and those Dolphins and Falcons. That being said, QB upgrade or not I don't think many people would have predicted winning records for those teams and yet they both made the playoffs.

TheReverend
07-01-2009, 01:34 PM
I agree that there are plenty of differences between this Broncos team and those Dolphins and Falcons. That being said, QB upgrade or not I don't think many people would have predicted winning records for those teams and yet they both made the playoffs.

Due everybit as much to solid QB play as good fundamental defense.

This team getting both of those out of Orton and our D... better luck playing the lottery.

NFLBRONCO
07-01-2009, 01:42 PM
I think it will be interesting to see how Miami and Atlanta do in 09 with a target on their backs.

Br0nc0Buster
07-01-2009, 01:50 PM
I think it will be interesting to see how Miami and Atlanta do in 09 with a target on their backs.

I bet both miss the playoffs

rbackfactory80
07-01-2009, 02:02 PM
NFL live, whats that?