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BroncoBuff
06-28-2009, 08:00 PM
Brian Griese
Sammy Winder
Al Denson
Andre Townsend
Rob Preston

Big Dre amd Sammy are awesome guys though, both VERY humble and nice.

Spider
06-28-2009, 08:06 PM
1. John Elway
2. I hop
3.Gaston Green
4. Bobby Humphries
5.Dale Carter
6.Deltha O'neal
7.Lyle Alzado
8.Ken Kartcher
9. Tommy Maddox
10.Ricky Hunley

boltaneer
06-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Jay Cutler

BroncoBuff
06-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Jay Cutler

Nobody asked you :redpunch:

boltaneer
06-28-2009, 08:12 PM
Nobody asked you :redpunch:

He ain't a Bronco anymore. Go ahead and let him have it. You'll feel good. ;)

slyinky
06-28-2009, 08:20 PM
I don't know if I would consider him over-rated but I hated watching Gerald Willhite try to carry the ball without falling down.

Sacked by Croel
06-28-2009, 08:25 PM
Why Al Denson? Big play WR with two double digit TD campaigns and averaged 16.4 yards per catch during his career.

He was the Broncos best wideout between Lionel Taylor and Haven Moses.

Boobs McGee
06-28-2009, 08:28 PM
All time is a tuffy....but the last few years:

Dre "toast" bly for the win

BMarsh615
06-28-2009, 10:49 PM
DJ Williams

SoCalBronco
06-28-2009, 10:52 PM
DJ Williams

No....this isn't the All Time Most Underrated List. That's in another thread.
It never ceases to amaze me how people get these huge hard ons for the flavor of the month but continue to disparage people who produce for years, without complaint, despite being jerked around constantly by the organization.

UberBroncoMan
06-28-2009, 10:57 PM
No....this isn't the All Time Most Underrated List. That's in another thread.
It never ceases to amaze me how people get these huge hard ons for the flavor of the month but continue to disparage people who produce for years, without complaint, despite being jerked around constantly by the organization.

I'll agree with this. I don't know how people can hate on D.J. with the amount of times he's had to learn new positions, with NEW D/C's and a **** POOR DEFENSE around him.

I know people may rag on John Madden (myself included). But he's quoted as saying the only High School player he's ever seen in his LIFE that he believed could make the jump from High School to the NFL was... yep, D.J. Williams.

D.J. is way underrated...

As for overrated... hmm... that's harder to be honest. I might say Clinton Portis...

While he was ****ing amazing for us, overall he's been a bust for the Redskins.

BMarsh615
06-28-2009, 11:00 PM
No....this isn't the All Time Most Underrated List. That's in another thread.
It never ceases to amaze me how people get these huge hard ons for the flavor of the month but continue to disparage people who produce for years, without complaint, despite being jerked around constantly by the organization.

LOL

I knew you would be the one who would be most offended by that.

DJ doesn't get sacks. He doesn't get interceptions. He doesn't force fumbles. He doesn't shed blocks well. He is just fast. DJ got a lot of hype early in his career but he still hasn't lived up to it. Without Al Wilson he has been nothing but average IMO.

footstepsfrom#27
06-28-2009, 11:01 PM
One name stands alone: Dan Reeves.

jutang
06-28-2009, 11:11 PM
hmmm... tough since I respect most of the players I put on my list but
Vance Johnson
Sammy Winder
Mike Anderson
Darrien Gordon (as a PR -- guy broke a few for TD's but he ran 50 yrds backward in the other 8 attempts)
John Mobley
Micheal Dean Perry -- I'd still never forgive his lazy ass effort
Anthony Miller

bronco_boi_5280
06-28-2009, 11:12 PM
Was Brian Griese ever overrated?

Although I must admit, I was on his bandwagon after that infamous Raider game.

BroncoBuff
06-28-2009, 11:20 PM
Why Al Denson? Big play WR with two double digit TD campaigns and averaged 16.4 yards per catch during his career.

He was the Broncos best wideout between Lionel Taylor and Haven Moses.

Wow I looked it up and you're right ... I withdraw that one.

My recollection (I was just a kid) is that he was so full of himself he could barely hold his is head upright.

Killericon
06-28-2009, 11:24 PM
Nick Ferguson.

SouthStndJunkie
06-28-2009, 11:28 PM
As for overrated... hmm... that's harder to be honest. I might say Clinton Portis...

While he was ****ing amazing for us, overall he's been a bust for the Redskins.

I don't think CP has been a bust for the Redskins at all.

For the Skins:

1315 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1516 yards rushing-11 total TDs
523 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1262 yards rushing-11 total TDs
1487 yards rushing-9 total TDs

In 5 years, I would not consider a 1500+ yard season, a 1400+ yard season, a 1300+ yard season, and 1200+ yard season a bust....while averaging 9 TDs a year.

SoCalBronco
06-28-2009, 11:32 PM
Nick Ferguson.

Obviously, Fergy's pathetic 4 inch vertical leap against the Steelers in AFCCG doesn't engender him alot of goodwill, but compared to the trash we've had at S the last few years, I think that on the whole, Fergy was quite serviceable for this team during his time here.

JMO.

uplink
06-28-2009, 11:38 PM
Tony Dorsett as a bronco, not as a cowboy.

uplink
06-28-2009, 11:42 PM
Also John Lynch maybe.

I'm not talented enough at evaluating players, but he was
certainly hyped-up by the bronco media. No sure if it was
earned attention or not.

ward63
06-29-2009, 12:40 AM
Orlandis Gary...for a year at least

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 12:59 AM
I don't think CP has been a bust for the Redskins at all.

For the Skins:

1315 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1516 yards rushing-11 total TDs
523 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1262 yards rushing-11 total TDs
1487 yards rushing-9 total TDs

In 5 years, I would not consider a 1500+ yard season, a 1400+ yard season, a 1300+ yard season, and 1200+ yard season a bust....while averaging 9 TDs a year.

agreed. plus it has to be noted that for the most part, in Washington, every person in the stadium knew, it was going to be Portis running the ball. he is the focal point of Washington's offense, and is still putting up good numbers.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 01:03 AM
RYAN TORAIN!!!!!

never before has a more fragile POS gotten more hype than a guy who suffered 2 crazy injuries while only playing in half of a game.

people so quick to jump on this guys nuts because Shanahan and Turner saw something in him. well in my eyes their eye for talent has become blurred, since we have gone into the last few years with, Young, Hall, Bell and Bell, as the guy they felt was best for the team

OBF1
06-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Dre Bly gets my vote.... I still see Greg Jennings running past him in overtime for the win.

Broncos_OTM
06-29-2009, 01:41 AM
No....this isn't the All Time Most Underrated List. That's in another thread.
It never ceases to amaze me how people get these huge hard ons for the flavor of the month but continue to disparage people who produce for years, without complaint, despite being jerked around constantly by the organization.

Dude you sound like a parrot. everytime his name is mentioned you are off to save his image. My opinion is that he is a decent linebacker. is he a Micheal Brooks, Karl Mecklenburg, Tom jackson,no. He also isnt a Ian Gold mike croel. etc etc. Yes we know he has asked to play a few differant positions and he was rewarded handsomely for doing so with out complaining. It is what it is.

doof
06-29-2009, 02:14 AM
Ian Gold

Not only did we let Romo go to get him on the field, we also moved 2 probowl quality WOLB from their natural positions to let him miss tackles all over the field.

Broncomutt
06-29-2009, 02:39 AM
Mike Shanahan

(circa 2006-2009)

Hogan11
06-29-2009, 03:30 AM
Also John Lynch maybe.

I'm not talented enough at evaluating players, but he was
certainly hyped-up by the bronco media. No sure if it was
earned attention or not.

How dare you!! Ha!

Mike Croel gets my vote

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-29-2009, 03:46 AM
Ashley Lelie deserves a place on that list.

Deltha would definitely make my top 5 all-time.

Punisher
06-29-2009, 04:16 AM
Darrent Williams ::)

meangene
06-29-2009, 04:26 AM
One name stands alone: Dan Reeves.

Absolutely. He and his lovechild, Sammy Winder. Week after week of the same ****! Oh, and throw in the Three Amigos!

Traveler
06-29-2009, 04:48 AM
Mark Haynes
Ricky Hunley
Bill Romanowski
Clint Sampson
Ricky Nattiel
Bobby Humphrey
Dale Carter
Mike Croel

Killericon
06-29-2009, 04:57 AM
Darrent Williams ::)

Only Posthumously.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 05:56 AM
I don't think CP has been a bust for the Redskins at all.

For the Skins:

1315 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1516 yards rushing-11 total TDs
523 yards rushing-7 total TDs
1262 yards rushing-11 total TDs
1487 yards rushing-9 total TDs

In 5 years, I would not consider a 1500+ yard season, a 1400+ yard season, a 1300+ yard season, and 1200+ yard season a bust....while averaging 9 TDs a year.

What you're completely failing to show and cleverly hiding are the amount of times he's rushed in those seasons along with his YPC.

2008 - 1,487 @ 4.4 YPC - 342 attempts
2007 - 1,262 @ 3.9 YPC - 325 attempts
2006 - 523 @ 4.1 YPC - 127 attempts
2005 - 1,516 @ 4.3 YPC - 352 attempts
2004 - 1,315 @ 3.8 YPC - 343 attempts

Now imagine you just gave up Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick for that pile of **** above.

How did Portis do for us HMMM???

2003 - 1,591 @ 5.5 YPC - 290 attempts (14 TD's)
2002 Denver Broncos - 1,508 @ 5.5 YPC - 273 attempts (15 TD's)

That's what we'd call a VAST DIFFERENCE.

Hence... Clinton Portis is a bust for the Redskins.

Oh and just for laughs.

Ladell Betts (for the Redskins) ran for - 1,154 @ 4.7 YPC - 245 attempts in 2006. Not to mention he had more yards receiving in that season that Portis has ever done in a season with 445.

Anyway, you're logic of just showing part of the stats isn't practical when you look at the whole picture.

Portis = Bustzilla

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 05:56 AM
Darrent Williams ::)

I'd actually completely agree with this...

Smiling Assassin27
06-29-2009, 08:35 AM
Dale Carter
Leon Lett
Sam Adams
Olandis Gary
Quentin Griffin

Garcia Bronco
06-29-2009, 08:52 AM
Miller
Humphrey
Jay Cutler
O'Neal
Griffin

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 08:59 AM
What you're completely failing to show and cleverly hiding are the amount of times he's rushed in those seasons along with his YPC.

2008 - 1,487 @ 4.4 YPC - 342 attempts
2007 - 1,262 @ 3.9 YPC - 325 attempts
2006 - 523 @ 4.1 YPC - 127 attempts
2005 - 1,516 @ 4.3 YPC - 352 attempts
2004 - 1,315 @ 3.8 YPC - 343 attempts

Now imagine you just gave up Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick for that pile of **** above.

How did Portis do for us HMMM???

2003 - 1,591 @ 5.5 YPC - 290 attempts (14 TD's)
2002 Denver Broncos - 1,508 @ 5.5 YPC - 273 attempts (15 TD's)

That's what we'd call a VAST DIFFERENCE.

Hence... Clinton Portis is a bust for the Redskins.

Oh and just for laughs.

Ladell Betts (for the Redskins) ran for - 1,154 @ 4.7 YPC - 245 attempts in 2006. Not to mention he had more yards receiving in that season that Portis has ever done in a season with 445.

Anyway, you're logic of just showing part of the stats isn't practical when you look at the whole picture.

Portis = Bustzilla

Make sure to think of this when Portis is surpassing 10,000 career rushing yards this year.

I think all those carries he has logged as a Redskin is a testament to his toughness....many out there thought he could not carry that kind of load year to year.

CP will probably end up in the top ten all-time in rushing yards and rushing TDs for his career when it is all said and done.

Just because Denver traded him, does not mean he automatically is overrated. Take off the orange blinders.

Beantown Bronco
06-29-2009, 09:04 AM
Two preseason all stars:

Hixon
Kasper

titan
06-29-2009, 09:27 AM
Two qb's the Broncos traded alot to get and disappointed:

Matt Robinson
Steve Tensi

Traveler
06-29-2009, 09:29 AM
Two qb's the Broncos traded alot to get and disappointed:

Matt Robinson
Steve Tensi

I remember the Matt Robinson deal. Sheesh!

skunk
06-29-2009, 10:33 AM
DJ Williams
Champ Bailey
Eddie Royal
Denver Runningbacks since TD
:pimp:

missingnumber7
06-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Maurice Clarret

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 03:21 PM
Make sure to think of this when Portis is surpassing 10,000 career rushing yards this year.

I think all those carries he has logged as a Redskin is a testament to his toughness....many out there thought he could not carry that kind of load year to year.

CP will probably end up in the top ten all-time in rushing yards and rushing TDs for his career when it is all said and done.

Just because Denver traded him, does not mean he automatically is overrated. Take off the orange blinders.

You're the one with the orange blinders. Portis has been a bust. The YPC's prove it. If he was HOF potential in Washington he would have kept up at least a consistent 4.8-5.5 YPC. Being tough and running an INSANE AMOUNT of times doesn't mean you're amazing. Again though, the facts are ignored. I even showed how a different runningback on the Redskins did as good a job as Portis has ever done for the team the year Portis was injured most of the season. You're logic is that if a guy can run 350 times a year for 10 seasons, that means they're not a bust. Sorry, but having a ****ing sub 4.0 YPC is pathetic and being able to last in the league a long time is just as meaningless if you can't produce well EACH SEASON. Portis is a bust, the end. Stop latching onto past fandom and stats that mean nothing... oh and I love how Portis has carried his team into the playoffs right? Total bust for the Redskins.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 03:31 PM
You're the one with the orange blinders. Portis has been a bust. The YPC's prove it. If he was HOF potential in Washington he would have kept up at least a consistent 4.8-5.5 YPC. Being tough and running an INSANE AMOUNT of times doesn't mean you're amazing. Again though, the facts are ignored. I even showed how a different runningback on the Redskins did as good a job as Portis has ever done for the team the year Portis was injured most of the season. You're logic is that if a guy can run 350 times a year for 10 seasons, that means they're not a bust. Sorry, but having a ****ing sub 4.0 YPC is pathetic and being able to last in the league a long time is just as meaningless if you can't produce well EACH SEASON. Portis is a bust, the end. Stop latching onto past fandom and stats that mean nothing... oh and I love how Portis has carried his team into the playoffs right? Total bust for the Redskins.

You done flapping your gums yet?

Bottom line: He is 27 years old and is closing in on 10,000 yards rushing (9202 yards)

His career YPC is 4.5....you can cherry pick all you want, but that is his career average.

He has 72 career rushing TDs....he will have well over a 100 TDs when he retires.

I could care less about CP after we traded him, but I do know that he is not a 'bust' as you call him.

montrose
06-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Ian Gold

Gold was solid as a special teamer and reserve LB, and I liked him his 1st year or two starting although it was Shanahan-esque stupidity to move Mobley to SAM. Gold was majorly overrated when he was brought back in 2005 and by mid-2006 most everyone recognized how much he sucked.

Mike Shanahan

(circa 2006-2009)

We could make a very valid argument that if you look at Mike Shanahan from 1999-2009 he was vastly overrated. I tend to believe that Mike Shanahan the coach did a pretty good (not great) job coaching the poor teams Mike Shanahan the GM built.

Ashley Lelie deserves a place on that list.

Ashley was a deep threat, and a good one. He never developed into what was expected of him but I wouldn't call him overrated. I think most people have a pretty good rating of Lelie.

Deltha would definitely make my top 5 all-time.

Similar to Lelie, he was your a-typical gambling CB. We were expecting more but, again, I'd think most people have a decent rating on Deltha.

Darrent Williams ::)

Possibly. Obviously Darrent's play in 2006 fell of from 2005, however we could atest some of that to our blitz-happy 2005 defense playing much more conservative the next season. I still believe that a healthy D-Will makes a huge difference in the AFCCG.

Mark Haynes
Ricky Hunley
Bill Romanowski
Clint Sampson
Ricky Nattiel
Bobby Humphrey
Dale Carter
Mike Croel

Romo does not deserve to be anywhere near an overated list as a Bronco. That guy was our last true playmaker at LB.

DJ Williams
Champ Bailey
Eddie Royal

WTF?

Maurice Clarrett

Everybody not named Mike Shanahan or Ted Sundquist knew that guy was going to suck.

Jay Cutler

Jay was vastly overrated, IMO. He is a very talented QB with the potential to be great but his forcing of passes, staring down of WRs and choking in key moments drops his value well below where some had him. I find it funny that so many blast Plummer for his performance in the AFCCG but Cutler seems to get a pass for the big games he blew.

hmmm... tough since I respect most of the players I put on my list but
Vance Johnson
Sammy Winder
Mike Anderson
Darrien Gordon (as a PR -- guy broke a few for TD's but he ran 50 yrds backward in the other 8 attempts)
John Mobley
Micheal Dean Perry -- I'd still never forgive his lazy ass effort
Anthony Miller

Mobley was not overrated, quite the contrary. That dude was possibly the best LB we had in the Shanahan era - it's not his fault our old coaching staff loved to move WLBs to SAM. I also wouldn't call Anderson overrated at all, he was quite solid.

Nick Ferguson.

I felt that way in 2007, big time. I will saw that the trash we had S last season had me longing for him.

Also John Lynch maybe.

Possibly, although I do think you have to value leadership and simple things that our safeties after him couldn't do (such as line up correctly and tackle). He may have not deserved to make all of those Pro Bowls here but he was still an above average NFL safety.

RYAN TORAIN!!!!!

Torain, Hillis, Woodyard and Larsen are Orange Mane cult favorites. While all of them have talent and none deserve to be on an all-time overrated list - this board does overhype that quartet.

Dre Bly gets my vote.... I still see Greg Jennings running past him in overtime for the win.

While I was hoping for more from Bly, I do think it's pretty hard to play CB across from Champ with the worst pass rush in the league.

Traveler
06-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Romo does not deserve to be anywhere near an overated list as a Bronco. That guy was our last true playmaker at LB.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Romo was one of the most over-rated and over-hyped players to ever play for the team IMO. Intensity was steriod induced.

Smiling Assassin27
06-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Tony Dorsett.

TheChamp24
06-29-2009, 04:22 PM
Ben Hamilton, mainly because I see him get pushed back a lot from DT's and don't view him as that good of an OG.


Oh, and calling Clinton Portis a bust is laughable. Edgerrin James only has a 4.1 ypc average, is he a bust too? How about Curtis Martin's 4.0?
He moved the chains consistently, racked up yards and TD's. Far from a bust.

manchambo
06-29-2009, 04:27 PM
This is not to put him down, but I always though Ed McCaffrey's popularity was way out of proportion with how good he actually was.

He was a rock-solid contributor to be sure, but not in the same league as Rod Smith. Yet you always saw a lot more McCaffrey jerseys.

~Crash~
06-29-2009, 04:29 PM
Nick Ferguson.

yep he sucked ...not the guy was one of the sure tacklers on the team I know you were so use to watching DJ ass tackle that you thought that was a form tackle .

maher_tyler
06-29-2009, 04:29 PM
You're the one with the orange blinders. Portis has been a bust. The YPC's prove it. If he was HOF potential in Washington he would have kept up at least a consistent 4.8-5.5 YPC. Being tough and running an INSANE AMOUNT of times doesn't mean you're amazing. Again though, the facts are ignored. I even showed how a different runningback on the Redskins did as good a job as Portis has ever done for the team the year Portis was injured most of the season. You're logic is that if a guy can run 350 times a year for 10 seasons, that means they're not a bust. Sorry, but having a ****ing sub 4.0 YPC is pathetic and being able to last in the league a long time is just as meaningless if you can't produce well EACH SEASON. Portis is a bust, the end. Stop latching onto past fandom and stats that mean nothing... oh and I love how Portis has carried his team into the playoffs right? Total bust for the Redskins.

You can't call a guy that runs for over a thousand yards each season a complete bust...he def has the ability to take it the distance each time he touches the ball. I don't think anyone has been that scared of their QB's throwing the ball downfield, so they stack the line of scrimage..its a miricle he's not hurt more for as many rushing attempts he has.

Pony Boy
06-29-2009, 04:34 PM
One name stands alone: Dan Reeves.

BINGO !!

Dan Reeves and his pony back system kept Elway from having a full hand of SB rings. He loved to use the small pony backs (Whillhite, Winder) . I think it reminded him of the Dan Reeves, Walt Garrison days at Dallas.

dbfan4life
06-29-2009, 04:43 PM
Wow, do some of you even put thought into your answers? John Elway? Eddie Royal? Champ Bailey? Seriously, WTF?

maher_tyler
06-29-2009, 05:04 PM
Wow, do some of you even put thought into your answers? John Elway? Eddie Royal? Champ Bailey? Seriously, WTF?

I just assume its a joke and move on...

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 05:40 PM
Torain, Hillis, Woodyard and Larsen are Orange Mane cult favorites. While all of them have talent and none deserve to be on an all-time overrated list - this board does overhype that quartet.


Please, do not lump Torain in with Hillis Woodyard and Larsen.

Woodyard last season was quite possibly the best LB we had.

Larsen when he got his chances was playing great, and had a historic day starting Offense, Defense, and on ST.

Hillis was the only RB last year who performed when given an opportunity(outside of Tatum against the Chargers)

all 3 of those guys worked and were valuable for the team for large portions of the season. they may be slightly overhyped, but they are not overrated.

on the other hand people talk up Torain like he was Adrian Peterson. the guy played in 1 game, and didn't even finish the game.

Torain has been here 1 season and missed most of last TC, and also all but half of 1 game in the regular season, and people sing his praises like he has done anything worthwhile.

he is the most overrated Bronco for not having actually done anything for the team, other overrated guys being mentioned were actually useful to the team for more than a single half of football. Gold for example at least played mediocre for us for a few seasons to earn his overrated status.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 05:43 PM
This is not to put him down, but I always though Ed McCaffrey's popularity was way out of proportion with how good he actually was.

He was a rock-solid contributor to be sure, but not in the same league as Rod Smith. Yet you always saw a lot more McCaffrey jerseys.

McCaffrey became the fan favorite for us, by taking insane hits and bouncing right back up. he was fun to watch. he may not have had the talent of Rod Smith, but he is one of the top receivers in franchise history, so no he was not overrated

ghwk
06-29-2009, 06:01 PM
Tony Lily - still getting burned in that SuperBowl game
Ashlie Lelie - that should just end the thread there
Steve Tensi - wait he was never rated as any good
Jarvis Moss - this should also end the thread
Niko "bench warmer' Koutavides - should stomp the life oout of whateverf was left in the thread.
Damn near anyone Shanahan brought in here the last few years that was washed up but conviced they were going to play Pro Bowl caliber ball.

Ironlung
06-29-2009, 06:16 PM
McCaffrey became the fan favorite for us, by taking insane hits and bouncing right back up. he was fun to watch. he may not have had the talent of Rod Smith, but he is one of the top receivers in franchise history, so no he was not overrated

Werd

Irish Stout
06-29-2009, 08:06 PM
Just so I am clear - does overrated mean the most attention and hype without the production? If so, then how the hell does Spider have Elway as #1? You can think Elway was overrated even after the 5 superbowl trips, the massive amount of yards in air and on the ground.... but can you really say he was the most overrated of all time.

Its like saying whats the most overrated beverage and choosing water. Can you really say water is overrated when its so necessary to everything else? sure its got no flavor or color, but come on, its water!

Irish Stout
06-29-2009, 08:12 PM
This is not to put him down, but I always though Ed McCaffrey's popularity was way out of proportion with how good he actually was.

He was a rock-solid contributor to be sure, but not in the same league as Rod Smith. Yet you always saw a lot more McCaffrey jerseys.

Actually, I will dispute this without fact checking. Early on in their respective careers together, per passes thrown to them, McCaffrey more often came down with a completion than Smith. Smith readily and steadily improved over the years eventually becoming a better wide out and he had more break away speed, but McCaffrey very evidently and clearly laid it out on the line every single game. The guy was playing in discontinued shoulder pads and toes cut out of the front of his shoes so he could be lighter and quicker. He had sneaky speed and about 1/3 of his catches were made while his neck was snapping sideways and he was three feet off the ground.

Was he overall as valuable as Rod Smith? No. But, he was like the Denver Bronco Rudy.... except better. The guy just tried and even those who didn't understand football could tell that the guy would go through hell to help his team win a football game.

Plus - When Ed McCaffrey would go out to block for another receiver or for TD, it was one of the most spectacular things one could witness in a game.... especially if he was waiving the naughty finger over the other player.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 08:15 PM
You done flapping your gums yet?

Bottom line: He is 27 years old and is closing in on 10,000 yards rushing (9202 yards)

His career YPC is 4.5....you can cherry pick all you want, but that is his career average.

He has 72 career rushing TDs....he will have well over a 100 TDs when he retires.

I could care less about CP after we traded him, but I do know that he is not a 'bust' as you call him.

You still have failed to learn how to read. It's ok I'll remind you since scrolling up might be hard for you. I said Portis a BUST FOR THE REDSKINS. Again you put forward retarded stats by combining his phenomenal job in Denver with this average job in Washington. He is A BUST. They gave us Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick for him. Seriously... two sub 4.0 YPC years in Washington? That's ****ing pathetic after what he did in Denver.

Hence the point of this thread. OVERRATED BRONCOS.

He was rated extremely high as a Bronco, but once he went to Washington he became a SHADOW of his former self.

I present the full statistical evidence, you just nitpick and toe the line. He's a bust, the end.

If you actually think that someone who does two years of around 1,500 yards (while staying under 300 carries), for around 15 TD's at a 5.5 YPC - who then goes to 4.1 YPC **** and one 1,500 season while needing over 350 carries to do it ISN'T A BUST. You're missing something up there.

For the love of god learn to read and comprehend things, especially the purpose of this thread and what I've said.

uplink
06-29-2009, 08:17 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree. Romo was one of the most over-rated and over-hyped players to ever play for the team IMO. Intensity was steriod induced.

Romo was great!

Watch the beginning of the Super Bowl vs. Atlanta as he busted up the blocking structure for Atlanta's outside running game. I think he set the tone for the game.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 08:18 PM
You still have failed to learn how to read. It's ok I'll remind you since scrolling up might be hard for you. I said Portis a BUST FOR THE REDSKINS. Again you put forward retarded stats by combining his phenomenal job in Denver with this average job in Washington. He is A BUST. They gave us Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick for him. Seriously... two sub 4.0 YPC years in Washington? That's ****ing pathetic after what he did in Denver.

Hence the point of this thread. OVERRATED BRONCOS.

He was rated extremely high as a Bronco, but once he went to Washington he became a SHADOW of his former self.

I present the full statistical evidence, you just nitpick and toe the line. He's a bust, the end.

For the love of god learn to read and comprehend things, especially the purpose of this thread and what I've said.

You have yet to find one person that agrees with you in this thread....many have agreed with me.

You stand alone on wrong island, waving your white flag of ignorance.

azbroncfan
06-29-2009, 08:19 PM
DJ Williams. Guy with a difference maker contract who is just an average LB that plays pretty good but never makes game changing/big plays when needed. Isn't a good pass rusher/blitzer, gets lost in his drops playing zone, runs fast and can get a ton of tackles after postitive gains by the offense.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 08:19 PM
You have yet to find one person that agrees with you in this thread....many have agreed with me.

You stand alone on wrong island, waving your white flag.

I give up with a dumb **** like you.

BroncoBuff
06-29-2009, 08:21 PM
Always heard Easy Ed wore the bare minumum amount of pads the league required.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 08:22 PM
Plus - When Ed McCaffrey would go out to block for another receiver or for TD, it was one of the most spectacular things one could witness in a game.... especially if he was waiving the naughty finger over the other player.

i will never forget that block he threw in Super Bowl XXXII, when he completely obliterated that Green Bay LB and then taunted him pointing at him while he was on the ground on his back and TD was heading towards the end zone

Irish Stout
06-29-2009, 08:24 PM
Fact checked:

From 1995 (the year Ed and Rod came to town) till 2000 McCaffrey had 368 total receptions and Smith had 357.

McCaffrey had 5008 total yards, Rod had 5413 in the same time frame.

in Rod's first three years I remember calling him Butterfingers a lot. Eventually he started making some spectacular catches, and quickly became a huge target for John. Either way, I don't think you can say either of these guys was overrated.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 08:24 PM
I give up with a dumb **** like you.

bwahaha....UberDouche finally gives up and calls it a day.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 08:27 PM
You still have failed to learn how to read. It's ok I'll remind you since scrolling up might be hard for you. I said Portis a BUST FOR THE REDSKINS. Again you put forward retarded stats by combining his phenomenal job in Denver with this average job in Washington. He is A BUST. They gave us Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick for him. Seriously... two sub 4.0 YPC years in Washington? That's ****ing pathetic after what he did in Denver.

Hence the point of this thread. OVERRATED BRONCOS.

He was rated extremely high as a Bronco, but once he went to Washington he became a SHADOW of his former self.

I present the full statistical evidence, you just nitpick and toe the line. He's a bust, the end.

If you actually think that someone who does two years of around 1,500 yards (while staying under 300 carries), for around 15 TD's at a 5.5 YPC - who then goes to 4.1 YPC **** and one 1,500 season while needing over 350 carries to do it ISN'T A BUST. You're missing something up there.

For the love of god learn to read and comprehend things, especially the purpose of this thread and what I've said.


i think the lone fact that he hasn't broken down completely rushing behind Washington's OL and is still one of the premier backs in the league says more than his supposed lack of stats. also, his lousy 1300 yards you seem to dislike so much, would have been a welcome addition to the Broncos the last few seasons.

azbroncfan
06-29-2009, 08:28 PM
Portis like him or not has overachieved and been a very good player since he has been in the league. Looking at his frame of work so far I find it hard to call him overrated.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Portis like him or not has overachieved and been a very good player since he has been in the league. Looking at his frame of work so far I find it hard to call him overrated.

UberBroncoMan goes a step further than calling CP overrated, he flat out calls him a BUST.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 08:48 PM
i think the lone fact that he hasn't broken down completely rushing behind Washington's OL and is still one of the premier backs in the league says more than his supposed lack of stats. also, his lousy 1300 yards you seem to dislike so much, would have been a welcome addition to the Broncos the last few seasons.

The Broncos were among the TOP in the NFL in rushing yards per attempt last year. We just never ran because we could never hold a lead. Your rational is failing here. Portis is a slower, often easily banged up, shadow of what he was in Denver. If Washington could take the trade back they would. Denver would have welcomed a competent back that would NOT GET INJURED last year. Peyton Hillis moped the floor with Portis in the short time Hillis was able to start.

Hillis had a 5.0 YPC with 5 TD's and about 300 yards in what would equate to 3 1/2 games starting as a RB. In fact the YPC is higher than 5.0 when you take away the games he was at fullback.

Washington traded CHAMP ****ING BAILEY and a 2nd round pick for Portis. THEY DID NOT GET THE DENVER PORTIS. HENCE IT'S A ****ING BUST.

Please tell me you'd take Portis over Hillis.

TheChamp24
06-29-2009, 09:02 PM
The Broncos were among the TOP in the NFL in rushing yards per attempt last year. We just never ran because we could never hold a lead. Your rational is failing here. Portis is a slower, often easily banged up, shadow of what he was in Denver. If Washington could take the trade back they would. Denver would have welcomed a competent back that would NOT GET INJURED last year. Peyton Hillis moped the floor with Portis in the short time Hillis was able to start.

Hillis had a 5.0 YPC with 5 TD's and about 300 yards in what would equate to 3 1/2 games starting as a RB. In fact the YPC is higher than 5.0 when you take away the games he was at fullback.

Washington traded CHAMP ****ING BAILEY and a 2nd round pick for Portis. THEY DID NOT GET THE DENVER PORTIS. HENCE IT'S A ****ING BUST.

Please tell me you'd take Portis over Hillis.

Yards per attempt means jack if you don't get yards and TD's. Selvin Young would be classified as a freakin All-Pro on your standards as he has averaged 5.1 yards per carry for his career, and 5.0 last year. Or how about Tatum Bell's 4.8 ypc for his career, and 5.7 last year.
Guess who will still be in the league out of the 3 this year. Clinton Portis.
Calling him a bust is ridiculous. The running scheme in Washington is different than in Denver, and he is asked to be more of a "power back" than an elusive back.
As for saying Hillis "wiped the floor with Portis last year" is hilarious.

Bronco X
06-29-2009, 09:05 PM
Been following the Broncos since 1983 (when I was a wee 7 year old), and there should be no contest who tops the list. I mean, FAR AND AWAY, for anyone paying attention to the team, who follows the hype surrounding players... there shouldn't even be a discussion. Yet he's only been mentioned twice so far in this thread. Three times if you count the Charger fan.

The fact that he has been under mentioned in this thread alone is a testament to how over-rated he is.

Jay Cutler, the supposed franchise QB who accomplished nothing, the guy who supposedly took the pride and glory of this franchise with him when he left even though there was no pride and glory while he was here, is the most overrated player in Bronco history. Easily. Anyone who disagrees, I ask you who else has received such accolades having done so little?

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 09:11 PM
Yards per attempt means jack if you don't get yards and TD's. Selvin Young would be classified as a freakin All-Pro on your standards as he has averaged 5.1 yards per carry for his career, and 5.0 last year. Or how about Tatum Bell's 4.8 ypc for his career, and 5.7 last year.
Guess who will still be in the league out of the 3 this year. Clinton Portis.
Calling him a bust is ridiculous. The running scheme in Washington is different than in Denver, and he is asked to be more of a "power back" than an elusive back.
As for saying Hillis "wiped the floor with Portis last year" is hilarious.

In the time Hillis played he did wipe the floor and proceeded to stick his foot up Portis's ass. Watch film dip****. I know I do. The amount of uneducated people on here is astounding. YPC does matter. Football is a game of YARDS AND INCHES. What kind of idiot thinks YPC isn't an extremely important statistic for a running back. It's more important than TD's since teams... hmm I don't know... often have utility players to pound the ball in or pass the ball in the red-zone. It just so happens Washington uses Portis as the pounder as well so he's in a lot of situations to get short TD's. YPC is vital, along with other things like run-blocking, leadership, receiving, etc. Clinton Portis is not a hall of famer, he is not an all-pro. He is nothing more than an above average RB, that performed like a HOF'er his first two years in the league. The Broncos on the other hand got Champ Bailey who ELEVATED his performance (aka got better) upon being traded. Half of you need to learn what the word Bust means before you all start cutting yourselves. Bust is a term of relativity, and in this case it's based on the champ trade scenario and past/present statistics. Clinton Portis is a BUST for Washington in terms of his production and what they got out of the trade as a whole.

He doesn't inspire fear in opposing defenses like he did in Denver, or make them have to stack the box to defend him. He's not a Tomlinson... maybe if he stayed in Denver WHERE THE ZONE SCHEME SUITED HIM, he would have continued his amazing looking career. His CHOICE to want out, and thus the trade to a team with a running scheme that didn't suit his ability all contributes to the BUST tag. Feeble minded individuals need to grasp the entire picture and stop b****ing about small things when there is an entire story as to why something is the way it is.

Jason in LA
06-29-2009, 09:11 PM
Clinton Portis. Great stats and high lights, but he wasn't an effective runner. His yards didn't always translate to points. Bunch of long runs mixed in with getting stuffed a lot.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 09:16 PM
Clinton Portis. Great stats and high lights, but he wasn't an effective runner. His yards didn't always translate to points. Bunch of long runs mixed in with getting stuffed a lot.

For the Broncos?

He had 31 TDs in his 2 years in Denver.

In the entire history of the Broncos, Terrell Davis is the only other RB to surpass that output in a 2 year period.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 09:17 PM
Jay Cutler, the supposed franchise QB who accomplished nothing, the guy who supposedly took the pride and glory of this franchise with him when he left even though there was no pride and glory while he was here, is the most overrated player in Bronco history. Easily. Anyone who disagrees, I ask you who else has received such accolades having done so little?

Basically, you're saying a quarterback with two years and five games of experience should be judged like a full fledged veteran who has been in the league for 5-6 years.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 09:17 PM
Clinton Portis. Great stats and high lights, but he wasn't an effective runner. His yards didn't always translate to points. Bunch of long runs mixed in with getting stuffed a lot.

He was good with us, overrated as **** though outside of this team as evidence by the lemming attack.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 09:18 PM
The chance is greater than 50-50 that Portis will have a bust in Canton, Ohio some day. When that time comes, bump this thread and stuff it in UberBroncoMan's face.

UberBroncoMan
06-29-2009, 09:20 PM
The chance is greater than 50-50 that Portis will have a bust in Canton, Ohio some day. When that time comes, bump this thread and stuff it in UberBroncoMan's face.

Go for it... make sure to get Portis to sign your fan club card when you attend as well. Also, if you actually care enough about this thread to REMEMBER to bump it well (never in reality), but say in 10 years... then you're rather pathetic.

TD doesn't have a bust in Canton, and you actually think the ringless Portis will... laugh out loud.

SouthStndJunkie
06-29-2009, 09:20 PM
The chance is greater than 50-50 that Portis will have a bust in Canton, Ohio some day. When that time comes, bump this thread and stuff it in UberBroncoMan's face.

I will....and he will have an epic meltdown like he has in his last several posts.

TheChamp24
06-29-2009, 09:29 PM
In the time Hillis played he did wipe the floor and proceeded to stick his foot up Portis's ass. Watch film dip****. I know I do. The amount of uneducated people on here is astounding. YPC does matter. Football is a game of YARDS AND INCHES. What kind of idiot thinks YPC isn't an extremely important statistic for a running back. It's more important than TD's since teams... hmm I don't know... often have utility players to pound the ball in or pass the ball in the red-zone. It just so happens Washington uses Portis as the pounder as well so he's in a lot of situations to get short TD's. YPC is vital, along with other things like run-blocking, leadership, receiving, etc. Clinton Portis is not a hall of famer, he is not an all-pro. He is nothing more than an above average RB, that performed like a HOF'er his first two years in the league. The Broncos on the other hand got Champ Bailey who ELEVATED his performance (aka got better) upon being traded. Half of you need to learn what the word Bust means before you all start cutting yourselves. Bust is a term of relativity, and in this case it's based on the champ trade scenario and past/present statistics. Clinton Portis is a BUST for Washington in terms of his production and what they got out of the trade as a whole.

He doesn't inspire fear in opposing defenses like he did in Denver, or make them have to stack the box to defend him. He's not a Tomlinson... maybe if he stayed in Denver WHERE THE ZONE SCHEME SUITED HIM, he would have continued his amazing looking career. His CHOICE to want out, and thus the trade to a team with a running scheme that didn't suit his ability all contributes to the BUST tag. Feeble minded individuals need to grasp the entire picture and stop b****ing about small things when there is an entire story as to why something is the way it is.

Again, Selvin Young and Tatum Bell both average near or around 5 yards per carry, yet both will be out of the league this year. YPC is not as important as you think.
Broncos ranked tied in 2nd in YPC last year with 4.8 a carry, but 12th in yardage and tied for 14th in rushing TD's. Tennessee averaged half a yard less per carry, 4.3, but ranked 7th in yards per game and 2nd in TD's.
Plus, what you are overlooking is the fact that the Broncos YPC was inflated last year because in blowouts, we got big runs that virtually meant nothing. Last game of the season, Broncos had 10 carries for 90 yards, a 9.0 ypc. Wow, amazing, but we lost by 31 that game.
Against Carolina, we averaged 5.3 YPC, but didn't score a TD and lost by 20. Heck, in that game, the Broncos got 63 yards rushing on 5 carries on their last drive when the game was over already.
So, sometimes looking at it, YPC means jack if it doesn't result in points.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 09:34 PM
TD doesn't have a bust in Canton, and you actually think the ringless Portis will... laugh out loud.

Portis and TD aren't good comps. TD's career mirrors Gale Sayers and Billy Sims more closely, high peak backs with not much longevity.

Portis turns 28 this September. He's a pup for a back with seven years of service time. He has plenty of time left to move up the all-time yardage list.

There's a good chance when Portis' career is all said and done his numbers will mirror the likes of Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin - backs with longevity that passed the 13,000 yard threshold. If Bettis and Martin make the Hall, I don't see how one could leave Portis out if continues to rack up yardage and TDs.

There's plenty of backs on the lower end of the HOF totem pole (Leroy Kelly, John Riggins) that Portis compares favorably to when you put their stats into context.

Bronco X
06-29-2009, 09:49 PM
Basically, you're saying a quarterback with two years and five games of experience should be judged like a full fledged veteran who has been in the league for 5-6 years.

Nope. I'm saying he shouldn't be given all the accolades of someone in the league that long whose proven he's earned those accolades.

azbroncfan
06-29-2009, 10:04 PM
Clinton Portis. Great stats and high lights, but he wasn't an effective runner. His yards didn't always translate to points. Bunch of long runs mixed in with getting stuffed a lot.

BS Denver's running game hasn't been feared since he left and has been average outside of one year. Portis got into the endzone too and put the fear of consistent gains with the homerun threat. You make him sound like Tatum Bell.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 10:25 PM
The Broncos were among the TOP in the NFL in rushing yards per attempt last year. We just never ran because we could never hold a lead. Your rational is failing here. Portis is a slower, often easily banged up, shadow of what he was in Denver. If Washington could take the trade back they would. Denver would have welcomed a competent back that would NOT GET INJURED last year. Peyton Hillis moped the floor with Portis in the short time Hillis was able to start.

Hillis had a 5.0 YPC with 5 TD's and about 300 yards in what would equate to 3 1/2 games starting as a RB. In fact the YPC is higher than 5.0 when you take away the games he was at fullback.

Washington traded CHAMP ****ING BAILEY and a 2nd round pick for Portis. THEY DID NOT GET THE DENVER PORTIS. HENCE IT'S A ****ING BUST.

Please tell me you'd take Portis over Hillis.

Denver was among the top in YPA because defenses lined up 3 or 4 to watch the run while the rest of the defense was dropping back to stop the pass. Hell Steven Hawking could have wheeled himself at a rate of 5 yards per attempt if the defense completely disregarded him, as was done with our pathetic RBs last season(Hillis excluded)

Yes Washington traded Champ for Portis because if your offense can't stay on the field and let the defense rest it doesn't matter who you have lined up in the secondary, because they will get burned. plus when you are a team rebuilding, it is somewhat pointless to have an elite Corner as part of the defense when the other 10 guys suck. that is what many here have been discussing in the "IS IT TIME TO TRADE CHAMP" threads. we have an elite Corner, but garbage around him and it makes him look bad.

Portis over Hillis is such a stupid argument. how many near 30 year old RBs are getting huge attention in the league? also, seeing as they are completely different players, and will be used completely differently so it makes no sense.
the real question you should have asked. Would you take Portis over Young? since that is who we trotted out as our starter last season

you b**** and say Portis is terrible; yet if Portis were in Denver last season he still would have rushed for around the same yards he did in Washington, but put Young or any of our other RBs from last season with the possible exception of Hillis not one of them comes anywhere near the paltry amount of yardage they got here, and their YPC average that you point out, would not be anywhere near what Portis had.

and to answer your stupid Hillis or Portis question. i wouldn't take ANY almost 30 year old RB in the league over a young guy who has yet to even hit his peak

Blueflame
06-29-2009, 10:31 PM
All time is a tuffy....but the last few years:

Dre "toast" bly for the win

I disagree... Dale Carter was far more overrated and also far more worthless.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 10:32 PM
Go for it... make sure to get Portis to sign your fan club card when you attend as well. Also, if you actually care enough about this thread to REMEMBER to bump it well (never in reality), but say in 10 years... then you're rather pathetic.

TD doesn't have a bust in Canton, and you actually think the ringless Portis will... laugh out loud.

TD had 4 years with solid production and 2 years where he was the best back in football. Portis has had solid production every year for almost all of his career, minus 1 shortened season due to injury. add in that for his 2 year stay in Denver he was quite possibly the best back in football. he has longevity on TD. he may not have the rings, but he has a longer career and more seasons of steady and good production than TD did. he will be an easier sell to get into the HOF than TD is.

side note: it is bull**** that TD isn't in the HOF

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 10:35 PM
Clinton Portis. Great stats and high lights, but he wasn't an effective runner. His yards didn't always translate to points. Bunch of long runs mixed in with getting stuffed a lot.

did you watch the games when he was in Denver? he had something like 31 TD's in his time in Denver, and over 3000 rushing yards. Only TD ever had a greater 2 season output than Portis did in Denver.

i think you may be confusing Portis with Tatum Bell.


our running game hasn't been feared or even really acknowledged since we traded him, and anyone who disagrees has blinders on.

Blueflame
06-29-2009, 10:38 PM
i will never forget that block he threw in Super Bowl XXXII, when he completely obliterated that Green Bay LB and then taunted him pointing at him while he was on the ground on his back and TD was heading towards the end zone

Nitpicking here but I believe that was Howard... (#29) who was "sprung" by Eddie's block...

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 10:41 PM
Nitpicking here but I believe that was Howard... (#29) who was "sprung" by Eddie's block...

i believe you are right. i have been trying to find a gif of that play. and now that you brought it up, i seem to remember that being a FB pass and not a run by TD that Eddie had a killer block on.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Nope. I'm saying he shouldn't be given all the accolades of someone in the league that long whose proven he's earned those accolades.

What accolades?

He made it to the Pro Bowl last year and he certainly deserved to go with 4500-plus yards and 25 TD.

Blueflame
06-29-2009, 10:50 PM
i believe you are right. i have been trying to find a gif of that play. and now that you brought it up, i seem to remember that being a FB pass and not a run by TD that Eddie had a killer block on.

^5

TD was awesome in that game, though... despite the migraine that kept him out for a significant portion of the time.

Bronco X
06-29-2009, 11:00 PM
What accolades?

He made it to the Pro Bowl last year and he certainly deserved to go with 4500-plus yards and 25 TD.

Did you follow the meltdown in Bronco nation when he was traded? Our chance for greatness, Super Bowl Championships all out the window because we lost our franchise QB? That's gotta sound remotely familiar...

I keep bringing it up and no one addresses it, but why does it mean so much for Jay Cutler to be a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB when it meant nothing for Brian Griese to be a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB.

DBroncos4life
06-29-2009, 11:01 PM
lol someone really thinks that the Skins wouldn't be happy with the Portis trade? The guy avgs 1220 yards running, 8.6 Tds a year, and he has finished in the top 10 in rushing 3 out of the 5 years there. He was 11th his first year there. For the love of god man Trung Canidate was the leading rusher the year before the Portis/Champ trade.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 11:13 PM
What accolades?

He made it to the Pro Bowl last year and he certainly deserved to go with 4500-plus yards and 25 TD.

if you go by stats alone. Rivers should have gone ahead of Jay.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 11:14 PM
lol someone really thinks that the Skins wouldn't be happy with the Portis trade? The guy avgs 1220 yards running, 8.6 Tds a year, and he has finished in the top 10 in rushing 3 out of the 5 years there. He was 11th his first year there. For the love of god man Trung Canidate was the leading rusher the year before the Portis/Champ trade.

i'd be stoked to have had a guy averaging over 1200 and almost 9tds a season the last 5 years he hasn't been in Denver. also that 1200 average is scewed because of an injury shortened season a few years back.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 11:15 PM
Did you follow the meltdown in Bronco nation when he was traded? Our chance for greatness, Super Bowl Championships all out the window because we lost our franchise QB? That's gotta sound remotely familiar...

I keep bringing it up and no one addresses it, but why does it mean so much for Jay Cutler to be a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB when it meant nothing for Brian Griese to be a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB.

Going back to 1960, Cutler is amongst the top 10-12% of QBs when you evaluate them individually in their first three seasons.

Nobody knows how the future is going to turn out, but Cutler based on his pedigree and three-year performance had the odds in his favor to have a long and respectable career.

Griese did perform well in a 10-game stint in 2000, but the biggest difference between the two was raw talent. Cutler was a top 11 pick. Griese was a third round pick with less natural talent. Griese was a Ty Detmer type. A celebral QB with physical limitations.

This is a silly comparison because Griese's aggregate performance through year three was not in the same neighborhood as Cutler anyways. Griese was a below-average QB in 1999, while Cutler was a top 12 signal caller in 2007.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 11:17 PM
if you go by stats alone. Rivers should have gone ahead of Jay.

Rivers should have gone ahead of Favre. Favre didn't deserve to make it. Cutler was the clear third guy after Manning and Rivers.

Blueflame
06-29-2009, 11:17 PM
if you go by stats alone. Rivers should have gone ahead of Jay.

Didn't Rivers have his chance after Brett bowed out due to injuries... only to bow out himself for the same reason? If healthy, both Favre and Rivers would have gone before Collins (and I still think it was a classy... if misguided... move for Jay to let the "old guy" play first... showing respect).

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 11:23 PM
This is a silly comparison anyways because Griese's aggregate performance through year three was not in the same neighborhood as Cutler anyways. Griese was a below-average QB in 1999, while Cutler was a top 12 signal caller in 2007.

i agree to a degree. Jay was awesome when he was on top of his game, be it because of a weaker team, or good game planning or whatever reason. but there were times when he was flat out terrible. his decision making at times is very sketchy. he put up great numbers but he also had a lot of turnovers(20) and a 25-20 ratio of TDs to turnovers is terrible.

BroncoMan4ever
06-29-2009, 11:27 PM
Didn't Rivers have his chance after Brett bowed out due to injuries... only to bow out himself for the same reason? If healthy, both Favre and Rivers would have gone before Collins (and I still think it was a classy... if misguided... move for Jay to let the "old guy" play first... showing respect).

i think something like that did happen with Rivers, but the point i was making is that people are putting too much stock into a Pro Bowl appearance, when he didn't necessarily deserve it. I mean people are quick to point out on Plummer's pro bowl year with us, that he was an injury replacement, yet those same people will not bring up the fact that someone else deserved to be there more than Jay did last season

also i agree it was a cool move to let Collins play ahead of him.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 11:28 PM
i agree to a degree. Jay was awesome when he was on top of his game, be it because of a weaker team, or good game planning or whatever reason. but there were times when he was flat out terrible. his decision making at times is very sketchy. he put up great numbers but he also had a lot of turnovers(20) and a 25-20 ratio of TDs to turnovers is terrible.

Once again, he is a quarterback with two full years and five starts under his belt. The people who trash Cutler act like he's supposed to perform like a veteran with 5-6 years of experience.

All young quarterbacks are going to have their faults, but Cutler still brought a lot more good to the table than bad.

Sacked by Croel
06-29-2009, 11:32 PM
I mean people are quick to point out on Plummer's pro bowl year with us, that he was an injury replacement, yet those same people will not bring up the fact that someone else deserved to be there more than Jay did last season

Hey ****head

Top AFC QBs in 2008

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Cutler

Cutler did not steal anybody's Pro Bowl bid. Favre did.

24champ
06-29-2009, 11:36 PM
Pat Bowlen.

TheChamp24
06-29-2009, 11:41 PM
Hey ****head

Top AFC QBs in 2008

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Cutler

Cutler did not steal anybody's Pro Bowl bid. Favre did.

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Pennington
4. Matt Cassell
5. Jay Cutler

Thats how I feel the AFC QB's were last year.

Bronco X
06-29-2009, 11:43 PM
Going back to 1960, Cutler is amongst the top 10-12% of QBs when you evaluate them individually in their first three seasons.

Nobody knows how the future is going to turn out, but Cutler based on his pedigree and three-year performance had the odds in his favor to have a long and respectable career.

Griese did perform well in a 10-game stint in 2000, but the biggest difference between the two was raw talent. Cutler was a top 11 pick. Griese was a third round pick with less natural talent. Griese was a Ty Detmer type. A celebral QB with physical limitations.

This is a silly comparison because Griese's aggregate performance through year three was not in the same neighborhood as Cutler anyways. Griese was a below-average QB in 1999, while Cutler was a top 12 signal caller in 2007.

Only problem with this logic... they didn't have fantasy leagues back going back to 1960's. Numbers mean nothing. Winning does.

Yes, Cutler had a crap defense. I'm not discounting that. But the offense left lots of points on the field. When he had a chance to put the team on his back he didn't get it done. Last year the offense moved up and down the field but too often stalled in scoring positions. People gotta quit excusing Cutler for that.

I'm not saying Cutler isn't talented, he most certainly is, but in this fantasy league era he is also immensely overrated. Very few QBs have such a sharp contrast between fantasy value and real game value, so I suppose it's understandable. Never the less, players still should have to get it done where it matters to be declared among the best 10% to 12% of third year QBs of the last 50 years. Perfect example of overrating right there.

Blueflame
06-29-2009, 11:48 PM
i think something like that did happen with Rivers, but the point i was making is that people are putting too much stock into a Pro Bowl appearance, when he didn't necessarily deserve it. I mean people are quick to point out on Plummer's pro bowl year with us, that he was an injury replacement, yet those same people will not bring up the fact that someone else deserved to be there more than Jay did last season

also i agree it was a cool move to let Collins play ahead of him.

The problem with the Pro Bowl is that voters are casting votes about midway through the season and because of that a player like Rivers whose team struggled early on (even though they made up for that with a winning streak later on) can be passed over...

That said, despite the disappointing end to the season, the Pro Bowl is an individual honor and Jay's numbers last year do justify it....

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 12:13 AM
How can any anyone say Jay Cutler is overrated? When and by whom was he rated high? May be he was overrated per Mike but thats pretty mcuh it.

The consensus on Jay among experts like Jaws, Hoge, KC Joyner or even local media like 'Fred, Woody, Sam Adams has been that he has lot of potential but is still work in progress. Almost everyone says that Jay cutler needs to improve his decision making etc. Thats probably on the mark so far.

As far as i know in the last 3 years there was one (yes just one) article in national media complimentary to Jay. It was basically a survey by espn where they asked NFL coaches, GMs about who among the young QBs are likely to succeed. IIRC, most of them chose Jay followed by Big Ben.

IMHO Jay Cutler has been one of most criticized players in the last 3 years in colorado. Even now people say that he has never won a big game and that if the game is on the line you can count on him to throw a interception. Is that high rating?

While we are on the topic, before I throw Jay under the bus and kick him to the curb, I would atleast give him a chance to play half dozen games with a semi decent defense - the same benefit of doubt I would give Josh McDaniels to coach a few games before I form an opinion on him. Just my 2 cents.

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 12:21 AM
Hey ****head

Top AFC QBs in 2008

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Cutler

Cutler did not steal anybody's Pro Bowl bid. Favre did.

For all the praise Rivers is getting, just think about this - last year Chargers and Broncos both won 8 games. The difference was Charges started with injury issues and had most of the players back toward the end of the season while Broncos started healthy and steadily lost players towards the end. Chargers are way more talented than us and they also had better overall coaching.

How did Rivers do in the first half of the season when he has to carry the burden of an below average defensive coordinator? IMO, other than Brady, Manning no other QB would have given us more than 8 wins last year.

buffbronco
06-30-2009, 12:22 AM
Brian Griese
Sammy Winder
Al Denson
Andre Townsend
Rob Preston

Big Dre amd Sammy are awesome guys though, both VERY humble and nice.

BroncoBuff, I think you mean either Rob Lytle (#41) or Dave "Sergeant" Preston (#46) neither of which would I consider over rated. BTW, footage of Lytle playing for the Broncos was used for the movie "Everybody's All-American".

Speaking of overrated, how about Ted Gregory? Or Melvin Bratton that running back we got from Miami and paired with Bobby Humphrey? Remember they were supposed to be the Dream Backfield? Or Anthony Miller who we got from San Diego and had the most amazing hands, but and equally bad attitude?

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 12:28 AM
Hey ****head

Top AFC QBs in 2008

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Cutler

Cutler did not steal anybody's Pro Bowl bid. Favre did.

Hey dick wad

just because he threw for a lot of yards and a good amount of TDs it doesn't change the fact that he was overrated last season.

it can be said Manning, Rivers, Cassel, and Pennington all had better seasons then him. they did not throw for as many yards, but they had seasons good enought to get their teams to the playoffs, and all of them had a better passer ratings, and had roughly a 3-1 ratio on TDs to INTs. Cutler led a team to being home for the playoffs, even when he had a 3 game cushion with 3 to go and completely **** the bed, he has about a 1.5-1 ratio for TD to INTs, and had a lower passer rating than the 4 i mentioned above.

like i said, he had a good season, but wasn't really deserving of a pro bowl nod

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 02:29 AM
Once again, he is a quarterback with two full years and five starts under his belt. The people who trash Cutler act like he's supposed to perform like a veteran with 5-6 years of experience.

All young quarterbacks are going to have their faults, but Cutler still brought a lot more good to the table than bad.

and people like you who feel that he was a god wrongly tossed aside for being a whiny bitch refuse to see that his contributions to this franchise were not so great that no one else can replicate them.

you don't see that in the final 3 games of the season when we needed a single win, he was at his worst. or in the red zone when the pressure mounted, it was not uncommon for him to throw a stupid pass that ****ed the team. all you bring back is a pro bowl appearance he was not deserving of. say what you want but Manning, Rivers, Cassel and Pennington all had better seasons than he did.

and i am not trying to trash Jay. i would have loved for him to grow a sack and not bitched his way out of Denver. but he did, and i don't give a **** about him anymore.

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 02:33 AM
Hey ****head

Top AFC QBs in 2008

1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Cutler

Cutler did not steal anybody's Pro Bowl bid. Favre did.

Cutler and Farve were both undeserving of a pro bowl last season. Cutler had a great opening to last season, but faltered at the end. and for the great amount of yards and good TD total, none of you Cutler apologists recognize he turned the ball over 20 times last season, and was garbage when it was crunch time

Blueflame
06-30-2009, 03:15 AM
and people like you who feel that he was a god wrongly tossed aside for being a whiny b**** refuse to see that his contributions to this franchise were not so great that no one else can replicate them.

you don't see that in the final 3 games of the season when we needed a single win, he was at his worst. or in the red zone when the pressure mounted, it was not uncommon for him to throw a stupid pass that ****ed the team. all you bring back is a pro bowl appearance he was not deserving of. say what you want but Manning, Rivers, Cassel and Pennington all had better seasons than he did.

and i am not trying to trash Jay. i would have loved for him to grow a sack and not b****ed his way out of Denver. but he did, and i don't give a **** about him anymore.

Um... but our so-called "defense" never gave up fewer than 30 points in those last 3 games... they gave up a whopping 112 points and 1166 total yards (643 against the pass and 523 on the ground). Very few QBs can lead their teams to wins when the defense gives up 30... 30.. and 52 points in consecutive games.... one can say what they will, but the problem was (as usual) lack of any semblance of a pass rush.

The Moops
06-30-2009, 04:26 AM
eddie kennison
dale carter
dwayne robertson (sp) . . .

gosh, there are tons

Jason in LA
06-30-2009, 09:44 AM
For the Broncos?

He had 31 TDs in his 2 years in Denver.

In the entire history of the Broncos, Terrell Davis is the only other RB to surpass that output in a 2 year period.

He was good with us, overrated as **** though outside of this team as evidence by the lemming attack.

BS Denver's running game hasn't been feared since he left and has been average outside of one year. Portis got into the endzone too and put the fear of consistent gains with the homerun threat. You make him sound like Tatum Bell.

did you watch the games when he was in Denver? he had something like 31 TD's in his time in Denver, and over 3000 rushing yards. Only TD ever had a greater 2 season output than Portis did in Denver.

i think you may be confusing Portis with Tatum Bell.


our running game hasn't been feared or even really acknowledged since we traded him, and anyone who disagrees has blinders on.

First of all saying that somebody is overrated isn't saying that they weren't any good.

Of course I watched all the games, and I'm certainly not confusing him with Tatum Bell.

From a stats perspective, the guy was great. But I'm not a stats guy. Stats can be misleading. In a lot of cases that was true for Portis while he was with the Broncos. He'd disappear at times during games, but then a long run would make his stats look great. He was stuffed a lot. Getting stuffed on first down meant that the Broncos were passing on second and third and long, which is a bad position for an offense, especially with a QB like Plummer. Chances are they were going to have to punt the ball away, and it would put Plummer in a situation where he'd throw a pick. Portis wasn't a move the chains type runner, which to me, is the most effective type of RB. Those RBs keep long drives moving because the O is always in 2nd and 5 or 6, and then 3rd and short. Makes it easy for the O to pick up the first down (one reason why the Broncos were so great with TD). With Portis, they ended up in a lot of passing situations. But he'd have his yards and highlight runs, so it looked like he had great games.

One perfect example is the game against the Bears, when they lost 21 to 10 I believe. Portis had about 160 yards and a touchdown. The problem was that he had 120 of those yards on two carries, which resulted in 10 points. One of those runs went for a TD, one of them the was caught at the 10 yard line (he got caught on a lot of long runs, he was extremely quick, but not extremely fast, there is a difference). Because he didn't finish off the long run he had to come out because he was tired, and then the Broncos went 3 and out and kicked the FG. So in the game he had great stats, a couple highlight runs to go on ESPN, and he looked great, but outside of those two runs he didn't give the team anything.

As far as the running game not being the same after him, the running game looked pretty damn good the next two years. I loved Rueben Droughns. He certainly wasn't as exciting, but he set the O up in a lot of good situations. And the results were the same. 10 and 6 and a trip to the playoffs.

The next year the running game was great again with Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell splitting carries. Actually, that was the best the running game looked since TD. The team went 13 and 3 and was one game away from the Super Bowl.

Portis was a special talent for the Broncos, and he was a lot more exciting than the backs that have come since him. But exciting homerun threat RBs aren't always effective. People love them, but I'd rather have a back that's going to consistently get 3 to 5 yards, with some long runs every now and then.

The thing that made TD so great was that he rarely lost yards on a carry, and he turned 1 to 2 yard runs into 4 to 5 yard runs because he always got yards after the contact. People love to credit the O line, which the line deserves, but TD made the line look great when he got those extra yards. he did a lot of that himself. Droughns and Anderson were the same way. The thing that made TD a lot better than those two was that TD also was a homerun threat. TD gave the Broncos the best of both worlds. But if I'd have to chose, give me the tough runner any day over the homerun threat.

One more time, I'm not saying that Portis was not good, just overrated. There is a difference.

vancejohnson82
06-30-2009, 09:51 AM
The thing that made TD so great was that he rarely lost yards on a carry, and he turned 1 to 2 yard runs into 4 to 5 yard runs because he always got yards after the contact. People love to credit the O line, which the line deserves, but TD made the line look great when he got those extra yards. he did a lot of that himself. Droughns and Anderson were the same way. The thing that made TD a lot better than those two was that TD also was a homerun threat. TD gave the Broncos the best of both worlds. But if I'd have to chose, give me the tough runner any day over the homerun threat.

One more time, I'm not saying that Portis was not good, just overrated. There is a difference.

Agreed....there arent many backs you can trust to run the ball like TD did.....how many times after he left did we see that sweeping toss end up for negative yards...that was our bread and butter becuase TD would ALWAYS find a way to get past the line of scrimmage....running that play with anyone else you are playing with fire

Sacked by Croel
06-30-2009, 11:43 AM
1. Rivers
2. Manning
3. Pennington
4. Matt Cassell
5. Jay Cutler

Thats how I feel the AFC QB's were last year.

Pennington? Captain checkdown? The safeties feel really threatened by him when he lines up behind center. It's rare to see him chuck a pass over 15 yards.

Cassell was sacked more than any QB in the NFL last year. Please take his ability to put your team in a 3rd and 20 into consideration when you evaluate him. Thank you.

Sacked by Croel
06-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Only problem with this logic... they didn't have fantasy leagues back going back to 1960's. Numbers mean nothing. Winning does.

Yes, Cutler had a crap defense. I'm not discounting that. But the offense left lots of points on the field. When he had a chance to put the team on his back he didn't get it done. Last year the offense moved up and down the field but too often stalled in scoring positions. People gotta quit excusing Cutler for that.

I'm not saying Cutler isn't talented, he most certainly is, but in this fantasy league era he is also immensely overrated. Very few QBs have such a sharp contrast between fantasy value and real game value, so I suppose it's understandable. Never the less, players still should have to get it done where it matters to be declared among the best 10% to 12% of third year QBs of the last 50 years. Perfect example of overrating right there.

In real game value, Cutler ranks quite well when you take his performance into context.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Sacked by Croel
06-30-2009, 11:52 AM
and people like you who feel that he was a god wrongly tossed aside for being a whiny b**** refuse to see that his contributions to this franchise were not so great that no one else can replicate them.

you don't see that in the final 3 games of the season when we needed a single win, he was at his worst. or in the red zone when the pressure mounted, it was not uncommon for him to throw a stupid pass that ****ed the team. all you bring back is a pro bowl appearance he was not deserving of. say what you want but Manning, Rivers, Cassel and Pennington all had better seasons than he did.

and i am not trying to trash Jay. i would have loved for him to grow a sack and not b****ed his way out of Denver. but he did, and i don't give a **** about him anymore.

If you look at the history of the NFL, quarterbacks that play from behind and are matched with a bottom feeder defense tend to throw more interceptions. There were picks that were certainly Cutler's fault, but some of them were taking a chance variety when the team was in a bad spot. That includes some of the red zone picks.

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Pennington? Captain checkdown? The safeties feel really threatened by him when he lines up behind center. It's rare to see him chuck a pass over 15 yards.

Cassell was sacked more than any QB in the NFL last year. Please take his ability to put your team in a 3rd and 20 into consideration when you evaluate him. Thank you.

every single coach in the league and most intelligent fans would rather a QB take a sack or throw the ball away rather than throw a stupid pass. I know that i would have been fine with Jay getting sacked 25+ times last season, because he wouldn't have thrown stupid passes and his turnover numbers would have dropped.

montrose
06-30-2009, 02:54 PM
Please, do not lump Torain in with Hillis Woodyard and Larsen.

Woodyard last season was quite possibly the best LB we had.

Larsen when he got his chances was playing great, and had a historic day starting Offense, Defense, and on ST.

Hillis was the only RB last year who performed when given an opportunity(outside of Tatum against the Chargers)

all 3 of those guys worked and were valuable for the team for large portions of the season. they may be slightly overhyped, but they are not overrated.

on the other hand people talk up Torain like he was Adrian Peterson. the guy played in 1 game, and didn't even finish the game.

Torain has been here 1 season and missed most of last TC, and also all but half of 1 game in the regular season, and people sing his praises like he has done anything worthwhile.

he is the most overrated Bronco for not having actually done anything for the team, other overrated guys being mentioned were actually useful to the team for more than a single half of football. Gold for example at least played mediocre for us for a few seasons to earn his overrated status.

I did say overhyped and not overrated although I don't know if I'll ever quite understand how Wesley Woodyard comes in and averages less tackles per game than DJ Williams with far less TFL and was somehow our best LB. I suppose everyone knows something I don't. :yayaya:

montrose
06-30-2009, 02:56 PM
every single coach in the league and most intelligent fans would rather a QB take a sack or throw the ball away rather than throw a stupid pass. I know that i would have been fine with Jay getting sacked 25+ times last season, because he wouldn't have thrown stupid passes and his turnover numbers would have dropped.

I don't know if Jay's picks would've dropped though, I can remember many of his interceptions coming when he had plenty of time to throw and just forced a bad pass or stared his target down. I had the feeling last year that if NFL games were played 7-on-7 Jay would still throw near 20 picks.

TheChamp24
06-30-2009, 03:17 PM
Pennington? Captain checkdown? The safeties feel really threatened by him when he lines up behind center. It's rare to see him chuck a pass over 15 yards.

Cassell was sacked more than any QB in the NFL last year. Please take his ability to put your team in a 3rd and 20 into consideration when you evaluate him. Thank you.

The same Chad Pennington that was 2nd in QB rating, 67% completion, 3500+ yards, 19 TD's and only 7 INT's. Oh, and he guided the previous 1-15 Dolphins to go 11-5.

Matt Cassell, 21 TD's, 11 INT's, 3500+ yards, 89 QB rating. Didn't choke and played extremely well in place of the injured Brady.

Cutler was good, but I think some overrate how good he did last year. He had an amazing hot start, but then was average.

montrose
06-30-2009, 03:31 PM
Cutler was good, but I think some overrate how good he did last year. He had an amazing hot start, but then was average.

If we remove Cutler's 1st three games from the season against awful defenses (at the time), he averaged 1.3 TD's, 1.2 INT's, and 278 yards per game for an approximated 81.0 QB Rating.

broncosteven
06-30-2009, 03:34 PM
How did I miss this thread?

I think Moxie is WAY OVERRATED.

Anthony Miller was Overrated

Regie Rivers, trading for an RB who has Asthma in Denver? Overrated.

Sourbum Overrated

Hixon and HIXON Overrated.

broncosteven
06-30-2009, 03:35 PM
If we remove Cutler's 1st three games from the season against awful defenses (at the time), he averaged 1.3 TD's, 1.2 INT's, and 278 yards per game for an approximated 81.0 QB Rating.

I didn't read the whole thread but that is still better than Plummers life time QB rating.

broncosteven
06-30-2009, 03:37 PM
I think change for change's sake is overrated.

WyoLaw
06-30-2009, 03:54 PM
Wesley Duke. Remeber, he was going to be the next Antonio Gates. Laughable!

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 03:56 PM
If we remove Cutler's 1st three games from the season against awful defenses (at the time), he averaged 1.3 TD's, 1.2 INT's, and 278 yards per game for an approximated 81.0 QB Rating.

You can come up with similar arguments for every QB. I am too lazy to look now but i have a feeling that if you ignore Rivers stats against raiders and Broncos, his stats would look less impressive etc.

Football outsiders have the best advanced metrics as they consider quality of oppostion, garbage time stats etc and Cutler was some where between 5 and 10 last year not too shabby ....

Lets also not forget that, after adjusting the performance of playoffs into consideration, Broncos had the worst defence in the history of football outsiders existnce i.e. since 1996 and that includes the 0-16 2009 Detriot Lions. For good measure we also had the last ranked special teams as well last year.

Further we are not discussing if Jay is bad player or not but he was over rated. When was Jay ever rated? and as what? His only claim to fame to date has been that he has skills to be potentially great but is work in progress. You are just letting your hatred for Jay Culter cloud your judgement.

JJJ
06-30-2009, 04:13 PM
Been following the Broncos since 1983 (when I was a wee 7 year old), and there should be no contest who tops the list. I mean, FAR AND AWAY, for anyone paying attention to the team, who follows the hype surrounding players... there shouldn't even be a discussion. Yet he's only been mentioned twice so far in this thread. Three times if you count the Charger fan.

The fact that he has been under mentioned in this thread alone is a testament to how over-rated he is.

Jay Cutler, the supposed franchise QB who accomplished nothing, the guy who supposedly took the pride and glory of this franchise with him when he left even though there was no pride and glory while he was here, is the most overrated player in Bronco history. Easily. Anyone who disagrees, I ask you who else has received such accolades having done so little?

This opinion won't count either (Bolt fan). But for what it is worth this is complete nonsense. Could be one of the best first 3 years in NFL history for this kid Cutler.

This one doesn't even need fact checking. Jay's first three years simply blow away Elways.

Cutler 37 games, 9024 Yds, 54 TDs, 37 Ints, 87.1 passer rating
Elway 42 games, 8152 Yds, 47 TDS, 52 Ints, 68.0 passer rating

Based on his first three years in the league it is impossible to call Jay Cutler overrated.

I have said many times this kid will win a Super Bowl and I have not changed my opinion despite his non-professional behaviour.

A whiner, yes. Rivers' bitch, yes. But definetly not overrated.

montrose
06-30-2009, 04:13 PM
You can come up with similar arguments for every QB. I am too lazy to look now but i have a feeling that if you ignore Rivers stats against raiders and Broncos, his stats would look less impressive etc.

Football outsiders have the best advanced metrics as they consider quality of oppostion, garbage time stats etc and Cutler was some where between 5 and 10 last year not too shabby ....

Lets also not forget that, after adjusting the performance of playoffs into consideration, Broncos had the worst defence in the history of football outsiders existnce i.e. since 1996 and that includes the 0-16 2009 Detriot Lions. For good measure we also had the last ranked special teams as well last year.

Further we are not discussing if Jay is bad player or not but he was over rated. When was Jay ever rated? and as what? His only claim to fame to date has been that he has skills to be potentially great but is work in progress. You are just letting your hatred for Jay Culter cloud your judgement.

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, I was simply backing up the posters argument that Jay started hot and wasn't as good down the stretch - which is accurate. As far as the defense goes, you'll get no argument from me about how much they sucked although I did hear an interesting stat I'm trying to track down that the Broncos defense was actually in the middle-of-the-pack league wide when taking the field following a punt or kickoff and that a signifigant portion of their points allowed came following one of the offense's NFL-high 30 turnovers.

As far as Jay being rated, I think the "Franchise QB" label may have been thrown around a little loosely on this forum and in the media. Just my opinion, but I simply had a bad feeling when Cutler had the ball in his hands at the end of games and that feeling was generally accurate (San Diego and Buffalo come to mind). As far as hatred for Cutler, I don't hate him and my opinion on him didn't change one bit through the entire McJayGate saga. My wanting him gone had more to do with my desire to do away with a gunslinger QB type for a more conservative game manager. I can't wait for the season to start!

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 04:35 PM
I did say overhyped and not overrated although I don't know if I'll ever quite understand how Wesley Woodyard comes in and averages less tackles per game than DJ Williams with far less TFL and was somehow our best LB. I suppose everyone knows something I don't. :yayaya:

i am not really looking at numbers between DJ and Woodyard, just the way they played. Woodyard was all over the field, making plays, when he was in he was the best LB on the team. DJ was good having a pro bowl year early in the season but he was still out of place a lot, and constantly away from the ball. Woodyard flew to the ball. on almost every tackle Woodyard was always near the ball carrier, the same can't be said for DJ

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 04:56 PM
This opinion won't count either (Bolt fan). But for what it is worth this is complete nonsense. Could be one of the best first 3 years in NFL history for this kid Cutler.

This one doesn't even need fact checking. Jay's first three years simply blow away Elways.

Cutler 37 games, 9024 Yds, 54 TDs, 37 Ints, 87.1 passer rating
Elway 42 games, 8152 Yds, 47 TDS, 52 Ints, 68.0 passer rating

Based on his first three years in the league it is impossible to call Jay Cutler overrated.

I have said many times this kid will win a Super Bowl and I have not changed my opinion despite his non-professional behaviour.

A whiner, yes. Rivers' b****, yes. But definetly not overrated.


you need to factor in the Elway had no offensive weapons around him early in his career. He was in a situation of he had to do it alone. plus the league then hadn't changed rules to allow for a more offensive game that gives more advantages to the offense and hamstrings defenses like there is now.

also, despite John's lesser stats, he had a greater win total and had taken the team to the playoffs. 1983 - 9-7, 1984 - 13-3, 1985 - 11-5 and in the playoffs all 3 of his 1st 3 years in the league.

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 05:12 PM
I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, I was simply backing up the posters argument that Jay started hot and wasn't as good down the stretch - which is accurate. As far as the defense goes, you'll get no argument from me about how much they sucked although I did hear an interesting stat I'm trying to track down that the Broncos defense was actually in the middle-of-the-pack league wide when taking the field following a punt or kickoff and that a signifigant portion of their points allowed came following one of the offense's NFL-high 30 turnovers.

As far as Jay being rated, I think the "Franchise QB" label may have been thrown around a little loosely on this forum and in the media. Just my opinion, but I simply had a bad feeling when Cutler had the ball in his hands at the end of games and that feeling was generally accurate (San Diego and Buffalo come to mind). As far as hatred for Cutler, I don't hate him and my opinion on him didn't change one bit through the entire McJayGate saga. My wanting him gone had more to do with my desire to do away with a gunslinger QB type for a more conservative game manager. I can't wait for the season to start!

Actually football outsiders methodology includes all these factors + things like opposition quality and we were hands down worst defense in the league. Their methodology also rates us very poorly for the turnovers and even after considering all these we were #1 offense in the league till before Buffalo game when the last standing RB was lost.

If Manning, Brady are your criterea for Franchise QB that's too harsh. In a world where Aaron Rogers, Tony Romo are considered as Franchise QBs, Jay certainly qualifies.

I don't want to rationalize Jay and he has his own faults. I was probably one of the first posters on this board to point out his flaws as far as back as GB preseason game last year. (On a side note I was flamed for that post by most of the guys who are now claiming Jay was never any good :) ) Having said that, it is also easy for me to accept Jays flaws as I never thought Jay is next Elway - no one is. In mind Jay has a very good chance to have a career like Steve McNair or Donovan McNab. Thats not too shabby and I would be happy with Steve Mcnair as QB for Broncos also for 5/7 years.

I would really like to see how he does in chicago where he has decent supporting cast.

JJJ
06-30-2009, 05:21 PM
you need to factor in the Elway had no offensive weapons around him early in his career. He was in a situation of he had to do it alone. plus the league then hadn't changed rules to allow for a more offensive game that gives more advantages to the offense and hamstrings defenses like there is now.
also, despite John's lesser stats, he had a greater win total and had taken the team to the playoffs. 1983 - 9-7, 1984 - 13-3, 1985 - 11-5 and in the playoffs all 3 of his 1st 3 years in the league.

Tell that to the those passing power houses Lynn Dickey and Bill Kenney (Boob might remember this guy) who passed for well over 4000 yards in 1983. Oh, and Marino set the yardage record the next year and even the remnants of Air Coryell was still spitting out the yards. This actually might have been the most prolific passing period in league history.

Hard to argue that Cutler's 3rd year defensive support was better than Elways. Elway saw the Bolts and the Chiefs twice each year and those teams had horrific defenses during that period. Seattle's defense was average at best and he saw those guys twice a year too.

I got to give you the win-loss record and the playoffs. But if my memory serves me well Elway was really hard to watch, especially those first two years. He was pretty erratic. For me on the field, Cutler seems much more composed than Elway at this point in his career.

montrose
06-30-2009, 05:40 PM
Actually football outsiders methodology includes all these factors + things like opposition quality and we were hands down worst defense in the league. Their methodology also rates us very poorly for the turnovers and even after considering all these we were #1 offense in the league till before Buffalo game when the last standing RB was lost.

Was this based on yards? I don't see how we could be the best offense in the league considering our lack of scoring and pentent for turnovers.

If Manning, Brady are your criterea for Franchise QB that's too harsh. In a world where Aaron Rogers, Tony Romo are considered as Franchise QBs, Jay certainly qualifies.

I have Manning, Brady and Roethlisberger as the only franchise QBs in football with a group behind them led by Rivers, Brees, etc. I'd put Cutler in the 3rd tier until he proves to me he won't choke when it's all on the line.

I don't want to rationalize Jay and he has his own faults. I was probably one of the first posters on this board to point out his flaws as far as back as GB preseason game last year. (On a side note I was flamed for that post by most of the guys who are now claiming Jay was never any good :) ) Having said that, it is also easy for me to accept Jays flaws as I never thought Jay is next Elway - no one is. In mind Jay has a very good chance to have a career like Steve McNair or Donovan McNab. Thats not too shabby and I would be happy with Steve Mcnair as QB for Broncos also for 5/7 years.

I would really like to see how he does in chicago where he has decent supporting cast.

I think Jay will have a career filled with tons of yards, TDs and INTs. I imagine when it's all said and done he'll have had a nice personal career but I highly doubt we'll see him winning very much. I just don't see gunslinger QB types winning too many Super Bowls these days. Best of luck to him, I'm just happy to move on with a guy who manages the game.

BroncoMan4ever
06-30-2009, 07:07 PM
Tell that to the those passing power houses Lynn Dickey and Bill Kenney (Boob might remember this guy) who passed for well over 4000 yards in 1983. Oh, and Marino set the yardage record the next year and even the remnants of Air Coryell was still spitting out the yards. This actually might have been the most prolific passing period in league history.

Hard to argue that Cutler's 3rd year defensive support was better than Elways. Elway saw the Bolts and the Chiefs twice each year and those teams had horrific defenses during that period. Seattle's defense was average at best and he saw those guys twice a year too.

I got to give you the win-loss record and the playoffs. But if my memory serves me well Elway was really hard to watch, especially those first two years. He was pretty erratic. For me on the field, Cutler seems much more composed than Elway at this point in his career.

i'm not saying that great statistical seasons were impossible for QBs prior to the rule changes to maximize offensive output. i am simply saying they were not as prevalent as they are today. Do you truly think that had rules not been changed to favor offenses that Marino's TD mark would have been broken, not once but twice within a couple years? Do you truly think the incredible stats Manning puts up every year would happen if rules hadn't been changed? I am saying that comparing a QBs stats from this current age of football with those of a QB from 25 years ago and a different age in football is not accurate and needs to be looked at with an open mind.

it should be known that a large group of QBs in the league now, would not have been able to put up the numbers they do now, in the league 25 years ago.

And i don't even bring up Cutler's defense to Elway's defense in their 1st 3 seasons. I bring up the offense. Elway had nothing around him, it was him all alone. Cutler had receiving weapons out the ass, and a line amongst the best this franchise has ever fielded.

His stats are inflated compared to Elway's 1st 3 years due to better protection, better weapons, and with the addition of rules designed to amp up offensive and QB statistics.

JJJ
06-30-2009, 10:40 PM
i'm not saying that great statistical seasons were impossible for QBs prior to the rule changes to maximize offensive output. i am simply saying they were not as prevalent as they are today. Do you truly think that had rules not been changed to favor offenses that Marino's TD mark would have been broken, not once but twice within a couple years? Do you truly think the incredible stats Manning puts up every year would happen if rules hadn't been changed? I am saying that comparing a QBs stats from this current age of football with those of a QB from 25 years ago and a different age in football is not accurate and needs to be looked at with an open mind.

it should be known that a large group of QBs in the league now, would not have been able to put up the numbers they do now, in the league 25 years ago.

And i don't even bring up Cutler's defense to Elway's defense in their 1st 3 seasons. I bring up the offense. Elway had nothing around him, it was him all alone. Cutler had receiving weapons out the ass, and a line amongst the best this franchise has ever fielded.

His stats are inflated compared to Elway's 1st 3 years due to better protection, better weapons, and with the addition of rules designed to amp up offensive and QB statistics.

Understood. But on the whole can agree that Jay Cutler should not be the overated list?

summerdenver
06-30-2009, 11:48 PM
Was this based on yards? I don't see how we could be the best offense in the league considering our lack of scoring and pentent for turnovers.


Ironically DVOA measures the efficiency of an offense and accounts for various things like situaion of game (pts scored in garbage time of blowouts are given lesser weightage etc.), Difficulty of opposition (100 yard game by RB against Bal is more valuable than the same against a cupcake like Denver or Detroit etc). We as fans tend to remember the oppurtunities missed and yes Broncos were one of the worst in turning the ball over but they were elite offense in most of the other categories.

Jay had a very good year (less turnovvers and he would have been elite) and our OL was awesome. I really think if we had a RB or two healthy and if it were not first year of play calling for Bates we will be looking at Jay Cutler in a very different view.

OrangeRising
07-01-2009, 12:02 AM
How did I miss this thread?

I think Moxie is WAY OVERRATED.

Anthony Miller was Overrated

Regie Rivers, trading for an RB who has Asthma in Denver? Overrated.

Sourbum Overrated

Hixon and HIXON Overrated.

My vote goes to this guy. There was so much hope that John would finally get the weapons he needed to ramp up the offense and win that Super Bowl.

Wasn't there another guy about the same time, originally from C-U named Pritchard or something, who was injured.

The Broncos orginally signed Tim Brown from Oakland on a FA contract, but Oakland matched, forcing Phillips to take Miller as the alternative I guess.

For the money, Miller was a horrible bust, but then, the offense wasn't the problem. Much like today, the defense was God-awful until, ironically, Mike Shanahan took over and signed the likes of Bill Romanowski and Michael Dan Perry (who played well for one year anyway).

Bronco Yoda
07-01-2009, 12:07 AM
Well since the HOF snubbs these guys and we think so highly of them..... we must be overrating them.....

Floyd Little
Randy Gradishar
Tom Jackson
Karl Mecklenburg
Steve Atwater
Terrell Davis
& few others...

stupid @$$ HOF

Jason in LA
07-01-2009, 01:02 AM
Some of the names in this thread I wouldn't consider overrated. Like Eddie Kennison. He wasn't overrated. He just sucked. He wasn't brought in to be a starter. He was brought in for depth. Because of injury he had to play a bigger role, and ended up sucking at it before quitting. He wasn't rated high to begin with.

Sammy Winder? He was never highly rated either. He was an average RB, and that's pretty much what he was rated at.

There were a few other names that didn't seem to fit either.