PDA

View Full Version : Best and worst decisions teams made this offseason


TonyR
06-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Nothing new here, just a new voice. Broncos have two of the "best", one of the "worst".

Here are the Broncos excerpts...

Best moves:

Broncos deal Cutler
We can debate for hours about who was to blame for the wedge driven between Jay Cutler and the Broncos. Was the quarterback too sensitive? Was the coach, Josh McDaniels, too na�ve? Was the agent, Bus Cook, too involved?

All of the above, probably.

But what’s beyond debate is that when a player goes rogue and threatens not only the new coaching staff but the authority of the owner, that player has to go. And Broncos owner Pat Bowlen, who’s forgotten more about the ways and means of the NFL then a player like Cutler will ever know, finally gave the OK for his staff to ship Cutler to the Bears for a bounty of high draft picks and a fairly competent replacement, Kyle Orton.

Broncos add some punch
The Broncos were 26th in the NFL in passing yards allowed per game in 2008. They picked off just six passes all season. The question of whether Brian Dawkins, who turns 36 in October, can fix the Denver defense is moot. The more pressing question is, “Can he make it better?”

Given that he recorded 142 tackles, six forced fumbles and was the NFC’s Defensive Player of the Month last December is a good indication that he can. The Broncos also added corner Andre Goodman as a free agent from the Dolphins, and he’ll be in a corner tandem with the always excellent Champ Bailey.

Without a more significant pass rush in 2009, Dawkins and Co. may suffer the same fate as the 2008 secondary, but until then, Dawkins' addition remains a smart move.

Worst moves:

Broncos, Bucs miss out
It was like missing the bus on your first day of school. Both the Broncos and Buccaneers blew their chances at getting the best available quarterback by sleeping at the switch on Matt Cassel.

Once the Patriots franchised Cassel in mid-February, any team was free to make inquiries and lay groundwork. But with new coach/GM combos in both Denver and Tampa, it didn’t get done. And then when word came down the Chiefs were in the process of securing Cassel, the Bucs and Broncos sprung into action with too-little/too-late offers.

As a bonus, the Broncos wound up missing out on Cassel and torquing off Jay Cutler so much that coach Josh McDaniels had to go through an arduous and image-destroying process of getting Cutler dealt to the Bears.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/31437121/ns/sports-nfl/?pg=4#spt_NFL_best_worst_moves

Pseudofool
06-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Not bad takes, honestly.

Punisher
06-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Broncos deal Cutler
We can debate for hours about who was to blame for the wedge driven between Jay Cutler and the Broncos. Was the quarterback too sensitive? Was the coach, Josh McDaniels, too na�ve? Was the agent, Bus Cook, too involved?

All of the above, probably.

But what’s beyond debate is that when a player goes rogue and threatens not only the new coaching staff but the authority of the owner, that player has to go. And Broncos owner Pat Bowlen, who’s forgotten more about the ways and means of the NFL then a player like Cutler will ever know, finally gave the OK for his staff to ship Cutler to the Bears for a bounty of high draft picks and a fairly competent replacement, Kyle Orton.

This is the Biggest Epic Fail Ive seen in recent history,you just don't trade a Pro Bowl Player in his mid 20s.Also he came off his best year.

I don't know how good or great Orton "Can Be" but I knew Cutler had Great on field Mechanics(For a young QB)

tnedator
06-20-2009, 05:33 PM
This is the Biggest Epic Fail Ive seen in recent history,you just don't trade a Pro Bowl Player in his mid 20s.Also he came off his best year.

I don't know how good or great Orton "Can Be" but I knew Cutler had Great on field Mechanics(For a young QB)

The NFL talking heads seem to be pretty consistent in this being a massively bad move on Denver's part, certainly not their 'best' move of the off season.

Bronx33
06-20-2009, 05:34 PM
This is the Biggest Epic Fail Ive seen in recent history,you just don't trade a Pro Bowl Player in his mid 20s.Also he came off his best year.

I don't know how good or great Orton "Can Be" but I knew Cutler had Great on field Mechanics(For a young QB)



Honestly this has yet to be determined.

Punisher
06-20-2009, 05:42 PM
Honestly this has yet to be determined.

Yea I agree with you,Of course I going to see how Good Robert Ayers is gonna be also.I think Cutler will have a bad year giving the Fact he doesn't have Shanny in his ear anymore.Plus Lovie Smith isn't a good offensives minded coach.

Popps
06-20-2009, 05:57 PM
But what’s beyond debate is that when a player goes rogue and threatens not only the new coaching staff but the authority of the owner, that player has to go. And Broncos owner Pat Bowlen, who’s forgotten more about the ways and means of the NFL then a player like Cutler will ever know, finally gave the OK for his staff to ship Cutler to the Bears for a bounty of high draft picks and a fairly competent replacement, Kyle Orton.


Excellent.

BearMan18
06-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Great article. I completely agree with the "best move" but naturally disagree with the "worst". Orton is supremely more talented than Matt Cassell, and he should bust this season.

Dawkins is a great player, I didn't even know he came here! That should help the turnovers

SoCalBronco
06-20-2009, 06:31 PM
yawn

Popps
06-20-2009, 07:32 PM
This is the Biggest Epic Fail Ive seen in recent history,you just don't trade a Pro Bowl Player in his mid 20s.Also he came off his best year.

I don't know how good or great Orton "Can Be" but I knew Cutler had Great on field Mechanics(For a young QB)

Cutler's mechanics were ****, half of the time. I don't know what QB you were watching. He had a rocket arm, which saved him and he used effectively. But, his mechanics got sloppy, regularly.

maher_tyler
06-20-2009, 07:49 PM
Cutler's mechanics were ****, half of the time. I don't know what QB you were watching. He had a rocket arm, which saved him and he used effectively. But, his mechanics got sloppy, regularly.

That and its seemed like he had an eternity to throw the ball and still threw Ints..it always left me wondering why he didn't throw it out the back of the end zone or to the sidelines and take the 3!!

It was like watching Plummer throw from the pocket..you just knew something bad was going to happen!!

tnedator
06-20-2009, 07:54 PM
That and its seemed like he had an eternity to throw the ball and still threw Ints..it always left me wondering why he didn't throw it out the back of the end zone or to the sidelines and take the 3!!

A lot probably had to do with the fact he is still a very young QB, with less than 2 1/2 years starting experience. We'll see if over the next season or so, he starts eliminating those mistakes.

tnedator
06-20-2009, 07:56 PM
It was like watching Plummer throw from the pocket..you just knew something bad was going to happen!!

You added this after my reply, but I couldn't pass on this. This one had me laughing out loud. We have now transitioned from the Jake vs. Jay wars, to lumping Jake and Jay into the same boat. lol

SonOfLe-loLang
06-20-2009, 07:56 PM
A lot probably had to do with the fact he is still a very young QB, with less than 2 1/2 years starting experience. We'll see if over the next season or so, he starts eliminating those mistakes.

He might and if he wants to, he can. But he's very stubborn and there's anothert stubborn QB who never learned to read coverage or to perfect his mechanics...Brett Favre

Punisher
06-20-2009, 08:03 PM
Cutler's mechanics were ****, half of the time. I don't know what QB you were watching. He had a rocket arm, which saved him and he used effectively. But, his mechanics got sloppy, regularly.

had Great on field Mechanics(For a young QB)

Must read whole sentence before you criticize :thumbs:

watermock
06-20-2009, 08:04 PM
That and its seemed like he had an eternity to throw the ball and still threw Ints..it always left me wondering why he didn't throw it out the back of the end zone or to the sidelines and take the 3!!

It was like watching Plummer throw from the pocket..you just knew something bad was going to happen!!


Because Prater was inconsistent and you can't trade 3's for 7's.

maher_tyler
06-20-2009, 08:04 PM
You added this after my reply, but I couldn't pass on this. This one had me laughing out loud. We have now transitioned from the Jake vs. Jay wars, to lumping Jake and Jay into the same boat. lol

I wasn't lumping them together...it was the same feeling i got whenever he stood back there, you just prayed nothing bad happened...like throwing into triple coverage..or the fumble against SD for examples!

maher_tyler
06-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Because Prater was inconsistent and you can't trade 3's for 7's.

That a pretty bad excuse.

Br0nc0Buster
06-20-2009, 08:56 PM
Because Prater was inconsistent and you can't trade 3's for 7's.

That is no excuse for forcing it into double and triple coverage

Br0nc0Buster
06-20-2009, 09:02 PM
I think one thing that is being overlooked by some is the fact that Cutler is now under the guidance of Ron Turner, not Mike Shanahan

Shanny got Plummer and Griese to the probowl, he knows what he is doing when it comes to offense, and he seems to know how get the most out of quarterbacks.

I am not suggesting Cutler will suck, because he wont, but he still had some things he needed to work on
And well his progression into an elite qb may take longer, if at all, than a lot of people are expecting.

I am curious if the Bears staff will be able to harness Jay and keep him from making so many unnecessary throws

Killericon
06-20-2009, 09:06 PM
Firing Shanahan should be on the worst moves list.

Popps
06-20-2009, 09:28 PM
I think one thing that is being overlooked by some is the fact that Cutler is now under the guidance of Ron Turner, not Mike Shanahan

Thank you.

I still believe Cutler will do fine on natural ability, but he'll also be unlikely to correct his mechanical flaws, and who knows if he'll get it worked out between his ears.

Shanahan created offenses that gave QBs and RBs a nice chance to succeed, as a rule. Cutler was certainly the beneficiary, as was Plummer.

But, I think that's where the McDaniels analogy comes into play. I think we're going to see yet another productive offensive system put into play in Denver, and the players within will benefit.

Punisher
06-20-2009, 10:20 PM
Thank you.

I still believe Cutler will do fine on natural ability, but he'll also be unlikely to correct his mechanical flaws, and who knows if he'll get it worked out between his ears.

Shanahan created offenses that gave QBs and RBs a nice chance to succeed, as a rule. Cutler was certainly the beneficiary, as was Plummer.

But, I think that's where the McDaniels analogy comes into play. I think we're going to see yet another productive offensive system put into play in Denver, and the players within will benefit.

Good post rep

atomicbloke
06-20-2009, 10:30 PM
He might and if he wants to, he can. But he's very stubborn and there's anothert stubborn QB who never learned to read coverage or to perfect his mechanics...Brett Favre

If Cutler ends up having a career anything close to Favre's career, the trade will go down as a disaster in Broncos history... if it hasn't already....

Popps
06-20-2009, 10:58 PM
Must read whole sentence before you criticize :thumbs:

O.K.. fair enough. My bad.

But, I do think his mechanics needed a lot of work, and said so since the first pre-season games we saw him play in. I wondered (aloud) if this guy was getting much hands-on QB coaching.

Now, we see McDaniels in camp, literally hands on... taping hours of QBs footwork and going over this tape with them. Cutler could have used that. But, now, **** 'em! :)

Jay has incredible natural ability and when he's on, confidence beyond his years. He could easily win a Superbowl, but then again... lot's of guys about half as talented as him have won them.

To me, give me a gutsy dude like Rothlisberger or Rivers any day over a prima donna with a huge arm.

Of course, Broncos fans have been spoiled by Elway, one of the few guys in the history of the game to match a blue-collar, balls-out attitude with elite, blue-chip physical talent.

In any case, I'm optimistic about what we're doing, conceptually. Not going to get too caught up in the Orton debate. I think he's got promise, but it's never been ALL about the QB. We have a team to build.

bronco_boi_5280
06-20-2009, 11:39 PM
If Cutler ends up having a career anything close to Favre's career, the trade will go down as a disaster in Broncos history... if it hasn't already....

This!

People throw around Brett's name like it's a curse or something. SuperBowl champion, multiple time MVP. Any team could do a hell of a lot worse than Brett Favre.

Popps
06-21-2009, 12:43 AM
If Cutler ends up having a career anything close to Favre's career, the trade will go down as a disaster in Broncos history... if it hasn't already....

Not if we go on to have success, ourselves.

Cutler forced his way out of town. Broncos fans are going to remember that. The casual observer may not, but Broncos fans will. What matters to Broncos fans from here out is how we perform. If the bounty we received for Cutler helps this team get to the next level, I don't care what Cutler does.

Clinton Portis has had a pretty successful stint in Washington. I don't think any of us give a ****. We were happy to have Champ, and Champ helped us get to the doorstep to a Superbowl and remains a key leader for our defense.

Most of us aren't going to be nut-swinging on Cutler for the rest of our lives. Most Broncos fans are going to move on.

watermock
06-21-2009, 01:54 AM
Wow.

When all the crap came down, it was wait and see. I thought Cutler was demanding a new contract?

As far as the Portis trade, What it gave us was a huge contract and Tater Tot. Meanwhile, Portis has been worked like a whipped mule and performed. Plus 13m this year it brought Boss. That's 20M this year.

As far as Cutler goes, that's over, but will be reviewed for a long time. We give up his SB, and he plays for 600k this year.

No nut swing here, Cutler has medical problems, but throwing mechanics aren't one of them.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 04:50 AM
Thank you.

I still believe Cutler will do fine on natural ability, but he'll also be unlikely to correct his mechanical flaws, and who knows if he'll get it worked out between his ears.

Shanahan created offenses that gave QBs and RBs a nice chance to succeed, as a rule. Cutler was certainly the beneficiary, as was Plummer.

But, I think that's where the McDaniels analogy comes into play. I think we're going to see yet another productive offensive system put into play in Denver, and the players within will benefit.

Oh tell us QB guru what is exactly wrong with Cutler's mechanics??? Or you just passing forward one orangemane myths like the ipod on the sideline.

Drek
06-21-2009, 05:40 AM
Oh tell us QB guru what is exactly wrong with Cutler's mechanics??? Or you just passing forward one orangemane myths like the ipod on the sideline.

He throws off his back foot too much.

He roams in the pocket laterally and puts excessive pressure on his OL to contain when savvy pocket QBs assist them with small corrections in stance and stepping up into the pocket at opportune times.

His deep ball is inconsistent and has a very strong tendency to sail high, a recipe for interceptions if there ever was one.

His short game can disappear from week to week and he's got very poor touch within the 10 yard area.

He reads the field poorly and rather slowly, often relying on the first or second read no matter how often a play has failed (shining example of this would be the Oakland game at home, Bates ran the same play about a dozen times and Cutler never deviated from the #1 read even though you could see on TV pre-snap that the opposing DB knew it was coming).

An extension of the previous, he is incredibly unwilling to check down, moreso than almost any QB in the league today.

He runs with the ball like its a damn loaf of bread.

He doesn't have the pocket awareness to throw the ball away or even tuck it when pressure is oncoming, hence a significant fumbling problem.

He's got talent like no one else in the league, but he's less refined than a good half dozen young QBs. Rivers, Manning, Roethlithsberger, Aaron Rogers, and Matt Ryan. He plays football like Tony Romo 2.0 right now, on the money and killing people one week, all over the place the next.

Firing Shanahan should be on the worst moves list.

Yeah, because another year of him running this franchise into the ground was what we needed.

And make no mistake, despite all his past glory that is exactly what Mike Shanahan was doing. He bred an atmosphere of self entitlement within the locker room, preferentially forgave the offense's short comings and most notably when done by its star young players, and refused to provide the kind of legitimate overhaul the defense had been calling for since even before Al Wilson was lost and the glue that bound together the fragments we had came undone.

He had a great run in the late 90's and even into the 2000's, but the last three years have been a disgrace and now a lot of people are trying to blame McDaniels for all the spilled milk when he's just the poor SOB tasked with mopping it all up.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 07:40 AM
He throws off his back foot too much.

That part of being a QB in the NFL, Phil Simms stated it best when he stated about 50% of all throws are when QB can not set his feet because of the garbage around him.

He roams in the pocket laterally and puts excessive pressure on his OL to contain when savvy pocket QBs assist them with small corrections in stance and stepping up into the pocket at opportune times.

Yet there were only 12 sacks this season. And Wilcox on the NFL channel was praising his footwork two days ago, and his mobility in the pocket.

His deep ball is inconsistent and has a very strong tendency to sail high, a recipe for interceptions if there ever was one.

I will agree that his deep back was inconsistent, because he doesn't put enough arc on it. But lets be honest, most teams only goes deep 3 to 4 times a game. That is done to force the Safeties into cover 2 and out of the box.

His short game can disappear from week to week and he's got very poor touch within the 10 yard area.

I strongly disagree with statement. There a numerous example of him throwing very accurate ball in the short game. Prime example the TD to Graham in the ATL game or number of throws to Scheffer on PA for TDS in red zone. As Sharp stated the kid can throw.

He reads the field poorly and rather slowly, often relying on the first or second read no matter how often a play has failed (shining example of this would be the Oakland game at home, Bates ran the same play about a dozen times and Cutler never deviated from the #1 read even though you could see on TV pre-snap that the opposing DB knew it was coming).

Every thought that it was the right read and was the right play just poor execution for a number of reasons (bad throw, good play by the corner or WR didn't make the play). Bates was calling the play over and over because he saw something and team failed to execute. With the completion percentage of 62.3%, he must of been making the right read a lot. Plus he was money on 3rd and long

An extension of the previous, he is incredibly unwilling to check down, moreso than almost any QB in the league today.

OK that experience thing, all QB with great arms go through that. Elway didn't learn it until Fassel became his QB/OC almost 8 years in.

He runs with the ball like its a damn loaf of bread.

He's a QB not a running back. Most QB run the ball like it is loaf of bread.

He doesn't have the pocket awareness to throw the ball away or even tuck it when pressure is oncoming, hence a significant fumbling problem.

He had 4 fumbles last year. Yeah significant fumbling problem.

He's got talent like no one else in the league, but he's less refined than a good half dozen young QBs. Rivers, Manning, Roethlithsberger, Aaron Rogers, and Matt Ryan. He plays football like Tony Romo 2.0 right now, on the money and killing people one week, all over the place the next.

Young QB that has 2 years of experience. Each one of the those QB you mentioned have just as many flaws to their games as Cutler does. Rivers, was know to throw it up when under pressure. Manning wasn't making plays until the end of SB season and just throws it up when pressured (heck that Trye catch was lucky throw). Roethesburger holds the ball way to long and take to many sacks. Rogers - was getting killed by GB fans for his decision process and INTs. Ryan was a rookie with few reads, a strong running game, wait til DC have full season of tape on him and watch what happens.

Yeah, because another year of him running this franchise into the ground was what we needed.

That your opinion.

And make no mistake, despite all his past glory that is exactly what Mike Shanahan was doing. He bred an atmosphere of self entitlement within the locker room, preferentially forgave the offense's short comings and most notably when done by its star young players, and refused to provide the kind of legitimate overhaul the defense had been calling for since even before Al Wilson was lost and the glue that bound together the fragments we had came undone.

Opinion

He had a great run in the late 90's and even into the 2000's, but the last three years have been a disgrace and now a lot of people are trying to blame McDaniels for all the spilled milk when he's just the poor SOB tasked with mopping it all up.

I have strange feeling your criticism is colored by your opinion of him. Is he perfect no but then no QB is. Additional comments are in red above.

tnedator
06-21-2009, 07:53 AM
He might and if he wants to, he can. But he's very stubborn and there's anothert stubborn QB who never learned to read coverage or to perfect his mechanics...Brett Favre

That well be, he may ONLY turn into the next Brett Favre. Newsflash, there are about 28 teams out there that would LOVE to have the 'next' Brett Favre.

I wasn't lumping them together...it was the same feeling i got whenever he stood back there, you just prayed nothing bad happened...like throwing into triple coverage..or the fumble against SD for examples!

Welcome to life as an NFL fan. Newsflash two, the fans of 28 or so teams, you know all those ones I mentioned above hoping to find the 'next' Brett Favre, are praying nothing bad happens every time their QB drops back.

Unrealistic expectations, and unbalanced analysis of talent and transactions.... Ahhh, the life of a Denver Broncos' fan....

Pseudofool
06-21-2009, 07:56 AM
I have strange feeling your criticism is colored by your opinion of him. Is he perfect no but then no QB is. Additional comments are in red above.
First you accuse someone of making up stuff about Cutler's mechanics being flawed, and then when someone gives you a pretty nuanced take, you accuse that person of being too biased to evaluate Cutler. That's just epic-lame.

tnedator
06-21-2009, 08:01 AM
Not if we go on to have success, ourselves.

Cutler forced his way out of town. Broncos fans are going to remember that. The casual observer may not, but Broncos fans will. What matters to Broncos fans from here out is how we perform. If the bounty we received for Cutler helps this team get to the next level, I don't care what Cutler does.

Clinton Portis has had a pretty successful stint in Washington. I don't think any of us give a ****. We were happy to have Champ, and Champ helped us get to the doorstep to a Superbowl and remains a key leader for our defense.

Most of us aren't going to be nut-swinging on Cutler for the rest of our lives. Most Broncos fans are going to move on.

Actually, what us revisionist Broncos fans will remember will be based on two factors:

First and foremost, is McDaniels the head coach here for the next 10 or so seasons, leading the Broncos to many winning seasons, playoff appearances and hopefully a SB appearance or two.

Second, what does Cutlers career look like over the next 5-10 years.

If it turns out that McDaniels is fired in 2-3 years like most new head coaches, and Cutler appears to be on his way to a HOF career, then the 'history' as written by the Broncos' fans will be how McDaniels drove him out of town while trying to trade for his backup, turned one year wonder (time will tell on this part) QB.

If it turns out that McDaniels gets us winning this year or next, is here for a long time with much success, and at the same time, Cutler's career plateaus -- the Bears are a .500 to sub .500 team during his time there, then it will be written that Cutler was an ungrateful, drunken SOB that disrespected the fans, coach and owner of the Broncos and forced them to make the trade.

Let's be honest, the history of 'how this went down' will be determined by how McDaniels and Cutler perform.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 08:07 AM
First you accuse someone of making up stuff about Cutler's mechanics being flawed, and then when someone gives you a pretty nuanced take, you accuse that person of being too biased to evaluate Cutler. That's just epic-lame.

No I asked why people throw things out there then repeat them like they are fact without putting anything behind their statement. I would have no problem with Popps response if had he posed "I don't think Cutler's has good mechanics because he doesn't get the ball up and ready to throw in timely manner." Instead it just Cutler has bad mechanics.

Of Drek's response only three things dealt with QB's mechanics - throwing off his back foot, setting up in the pocket and Cutler deep ball. The rest dealt with decision making and running ability that very different then mechanics.

tnedator
06-21-2009, 08:16 AM
This!

People throw around Brett's name like it's a curse or something. SuperBowl champion, multiple time MVP. Any team could do a hell of a lot worse than Brett Favre.

Yea, do you believe the BS is that is being spewed. Jay needed to go because he was a young Brett Favre. If he really is a young Brett Favre than McDaniels needs to be fired, and the NFL needs to take the franchise away from Mr. B for being an idiot.

With the exception of Indy, NE and maybe one or two other teams, the rest of the NFL franchises would likely give up a package that made the Bears look puny, if they new for sure Cutler was the next Brett Favre.

It's amazing how one of the GOAT QBs has become marginalized in order to justify a front office trade of our QB.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 08:20 AM
Yea, do you believe the BS is that is being spewed. Jay needed to go because he was a young Brett Favre. If he really is a young Brett Favre than McDaniels needs to be fired, and the NFL needs to take the franchise away from Mr. B for being an idiot.

With the exception of Indy, NE and maybe one or two other teams, the rest of the NFL franchises would likely give up a package that made the Bears look puny, if they new for sure Cutler was the next Brett Favre.

It's amazing how one of the GOAT QBs has become marginalized in order to justify a front office trade of our QB.

It the ex-hot girlfriend syndrome. Even though she has issues (like we all do) she is still hot. But people want to make their next girlfriend to be just as hot or hotter to justify the break up.

tnedator
06-21-2009, 08:30 AM
It the ex-hot girlfriend syndrome. Even though she has issues (like we all do) she is still hot. But people want to make their next girlfriend to be just as hot or hotter to justify the break up.

Exactly. On BF, we have one discussion after another where a case is being made for how Orton is a 'better' QB, or at least as good, as Cutler.

Newsflash 3 of this fine Sunday morning, Chicago didn't get two firsts and Cutler for Orton, so time to stop trying to make a case for Orton being a better QB than Cutler.

It's simply fans trying to rationalize and 'feel good' about moves that were made. Now it's, "Marshall is a bum that only looked good because Cutler didn't know how to throw the ball around" or "Marshall isn't going to get 100 receptions when he is suspended for 8 games in '09".

We are already rationalizing Marshall's departure, because it is easier to create a fantasy or rewrite history, than face the truth.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 08:39 AM
Exactly. On BF, we have one discussion after another where a case is being made for how Orton is a 'better' QB, or at least as good, as Cutler.

Newsflash 3 of this fine Sunday morning, Chicago didn't get two firsts and Cutler for Orton, so time to stop trying to make a case for Orton being a better QB than Cutler.

It's simply fans trying to rationalize and 'feel good' about moves that were made. Now it's, "Marshall is a bum that only looked good because Cutler didn't know how to throw the ball around" or "Marshall isn't going to get 100 receptions when he is suspended for 8 games in '09".

We are already rationalizing Marshall's departure, because it is easier to create a fantasy or rewrite history, than face the truth.

I understand. And there were a lot of things Cutler needs to improve on, but in the end of the day, there is lot more things that he does extremely well that Orton can not do.

tnedator
06-21-2009, 09:17 AM
I understand. And there were a lot of things Cutler needs to improve on, but in the end of the day, there is lot more things that he does extremely well that Orton can not do.

Which is why reportedly there were quite a few teams lined up and willing to pay the asking price of two first round picks.

TonyR
06-21-2009, 09:22 AM
And there were a lot of things Cutler needs to improve on, but in the end of the day, there is lot more things that he does extremely well that Orton can not do.

Is there any end to the depths you'll go to support this QB who didn't want to play for the team you're supposedly a fan of? Jilted lovers who can't let go. Sad.

Drek
06-21-2009, 09:23 AM
It the ex-hot girlfriend syndrome. Even though she has issues (like we all do) she is still hot. But people want to make their next girlfriend to be just as hot or hotter to justify the break up.

I said on this very forum when Jay was in the middle of a late season choke job to hand the division over to SD that he wasn't even the best QB under 26 then.

I said on this forum then that I'd probably take Ryan over him, and that Flacco isn't far behind. He's nowhere near any of the top three QBs from the '04 class, and Aaron Rogers in his first year as a starter played better and more consistent than Cutler ever has.

I'd go down your points one by one but they're all just "well I don't think so!" rebuttals and you chose to respond within the quotes. I don't feel like taking ten minutes to parse it all out. Suffice to say though, I've been openly voicing my opinion as to Cutler's failings behind center well before he was traded, McDaniels was hired, or even Shanahan being canned. Its nothing personal, he's just a very, very raw QB who has yet to show the ability to improve his game as the season progresses or win critical games at home.

In short, he's Tony Romo 2.0. Impressive talent but inconsistent and as of yet he's shown no ability to handle the pressure of carrying a team to victories.

TonyR
06-21-2009, 09:24 AM
...reportedly there were quite a few teams lined up and willing to pay the asking price of two first round picks.

Other than maybe Tampa and Detroit, who?

TonyR
06-21-2009, 09:28 AM
...Impressive talent but inconsistent and as of yet he's shown no ability to handle the pressure of carrying a team to victories.

Very true. The jilted lovers are remembering only the good, or only what they hoped he'd become, and not what he really was.

BearMan18
06-21-2009, 09:42 AM
It the ex-hot girlfriend syndrome. Even though she has issues (like we all do) she is still hot. But people want to make their next girlfriend to be just as hot or hotter to justify the break up.

Luckily, Orton has that rugged, get on your knees appeal.

BearMan18
06-21-2009, 12:08 PM
I said on this very forum when Jay was in the middle of a late season choke job to hand the division over to SD that he wasn't even the best QB under 26 then.

Well I just discovered that the search function here sucks.

Still, I checked the schedule and found out you guys had your "late season choke job" in December. So I did find this post of you from Mid December. This is you ripping him a new one, right?

You started the debate by saying that only Bronco homers thought Cutler deserved to go over Rivers, so why are you suddenly shifting away from that argument?

Rivers has some proven veteran talent on his offense and a RB who is supposed to be great. Cutler has changed starting RB a half dozen times and the good talent around him is almost all very young. Yet he's got more passing yardage than Rivers, a pretty comparable completion percentage, and he's the one leading the division.

QB ratings are stupid. It is also pretty stupid that fan favorites like Manning and Favre get defacto selections over guys who have clearly out played them, but even with the less than stellar game every few Sundays Cutler is still pretty clearly a top 3 QB in the AFC this year.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2205437&postcount=38

:oyvey:

bronco_boi_5280
06-21-2009, 12:11 PM
/thread

BearMan18
06-21-2009, 12:13 PM
/thread

No, sir. We discuss the greatness of Orton here now.

bronco_boi_5280
06-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Calm down.

BearMan18
06-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Calm down.

I am. Love your avy, by the way. Repped.

Though Orton should be coaching McD.

BroncoBuff
06-21-2009, 01:19 PM
I said on this very forum when Jay was in the middle of a late season choke job to hand the division over to SD
C'mon Drek, our defense was an historic sieve. The guys got winded running backwards to line up for the next play.

Plus Jay is something like 12-1 career when the opposing team scores 20 or fewer points.


I said on this forum then that I'd probably take Ryan over him, and that Flacco isn't far behind.
WAY too early.


He's nowhere near any of the top three QBs from the '04 class, and Aaron Rogers in his first year as a starter played better and more consistent than Cutler ever has.
Agreed. But what about the Giants, Steelers and Chargers defenses? They're all WORLDS better than ours. Steelers two Super Bowl teams and Giants one - they were largely defense-driven.


Its nothing personal, he's just a very, very raw QB who has yet to show the ability to improve his game as the season progresses or win critical games at home.
I dunno ... he's been very impressive on 3rd downs and in 4th quarters (save Buffalo). The Cleveland 4th-quarter was every bit Elway-like.

I guess I just disagree ... I don't think "raw" is a good description at all, his yards and completion percentage are too high. Imo "raw" is Brady Quinn, Jason Campbell, Tyler Thigpen, Jamarcus Russell. Jay outperformed these guys by light years.



He's shown no ability to handle the pressure of carrying a team to victories.
Ever try carrying 11 horrible defensive players piggyback?

Cutler might not be a proven winner yet, but he did carry Vandy over Florida in Gainesville one year (David had better odds against Goliath), and he won the Indiana state championship in high school. So he has SOME record of carrying teams to victories in his past.

Now that he's on a team with an average/above average defense, it will be easier to judge him. Everybody loves to point to the galaxy of talent that surrounded him here, but I think he'd have been better served with a tad less offensive talent, and at least an average defense.

We'll see I guess.

BroncoBuff
06-21-2009, 01:23 PM
Actually, a very very solid argument can be made that it was a miracle Jay carried the worst defensie in the league to a .500 record.


More imo "raw" = Vince Young, Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Leinart, Seneca Wallace

UberBroncoMan
06-21-2009, 03:31 PM
In all honesty I think had the Cutler **** not gone down and a poll was made saying 2 1st's and Orton for Cutler to the Bears... almost everyone would have said **** no.

To be fair though, there is no telling if this is a good trade until this coming season.

BroncoBuff
06-21-2009, 03:33 PM
In all honesty I think had the Cutler **** not gone down and a poll was made saying 2 1st's and Orton for Cutler to the Bears... almost everyone would have said **** no.

You damn right they would have, guys like Popps would've led the **** shouters against it.

Amazing how backwards-reasoning can change peoples' minds, eh? :~ohyah!:

Killericon
06-21-2009, 03:46 PM
You damn right they would have, guys like Popps would've led the **** shouters against it.

Amazing how backwards-reasoning can change peoples' minds, eh? :~ohyah!:

You might as well try to make the bed you're stuck with as comfortable as possible.

EDIT: What a grammatical nightmare.

TonyR
06-21-2009, 05:05 PM
...2 1st's and Orton for Cutler...

It was actually 2 firsts and a 3rd plus Orton for Cutler and a 5th.

But I do somewhat agree with your point. I probably would have opposed such a trade under in hypothetical situation, but considering the actual circumstances I'm okay with it.