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mr007
06-17-2009, 05:43 PM
Has anyone been diagnosed with this? Did you go through a psych? If so, how have things changed for you since being diagnosed??

I actually think I've had this for a very long time. I also kind of think it's over diagnosed but want to hear some thoughts. I have one friend that takes Adderall for it everyday. I'm not sure I'd want to go that route, I've had it before and it definitely helps me increase my focus to tasks at hand instead of drifting all over the place.

Anyway, if you have some experience in this arena, please share!

BMarsh615
06-17-2009, 05:48 PM
I was diagnosed with ADHD back in high school. I was on 75 mg of Adderal XR a day. I don't recommend going on that stuff... If you really have ADHD it just makes you a zombie.

mr007
06-17-2009, 05:53 PM
I was diagnosed with ADHD back in high school. I was on 75 mg of Adderal XR a day. I don't recommend going on that stuff... If you really have ADHD it just makes you a zombie.

What do you mean by a zombie? Also, do you think you still have it or have you gotten past it?

tsiguy96
06-17-2009, 05:56 PM
its a made up disorder. apparently having energy is a bad thing and requires medication.

mr007
06-17-2009, 05:58 PM
its a made up disorder. apparently having energy is a bad thing and requires medication.

And when I opened this I actually thought you were going to contribute something.

bronco_boi_5280
06-17-2009, 05:59 PM
Your best bet is to get the prescription and then sell the drugs on the open market. Pretty easy way to make some extra money.

tsiguy96
06-17-2009, 06:00 PM
And when I opened this I actually thought you were going to contribute something.

youre telling me kids having too much energy is a bad thing? heres an idea: dont let them sit inside and play video games all day so they get built up energy, let them/make them go outside and do **** so they dont turn into fat asses.

cutthemdown
06-17-2009, 06:02 PM
I was diagnosed with ADHD back in high school. I was on 75 mg of Adderal XR a day. I don't recommend going on that stuff... If you really have ADHD it just makes you a zombie.

My good friend said same thing. Decided he liked being a little scatter brained and flipped out, to being a zombie and feeling not himself all the time.

Sometimes I think people just gotta learn to deal with there personalities. We call it ADHD like its a disease so we can medicate it. Really it's how your brain works and changing it may not be better.

I have heard though if you don't have it, and take it, you can concentrate better.

cutthemdown
06-17-2009, 06:04 PM
Your best bet is to get the prescription and then sell the drugs on the open market. Pretty easy way to make some extra money.

If you don't mind being a drug dealer.

You can also kidnap people, remove organs, sell them to rich people.......but kinda of makes you a drag.

By the way were is this underground open market........I need my LORTAB DAMMIT!!!!

DBroncos4life
06-17-2009, 06:04 PM
What do you mean by a zombie? Also, do you think you still have it or have you gotten past it?

What it does to me is makes it very hard for me to wake up and get going. Sure I guess things slow down inside my head but after years of getting used to it I can't stand to have things "normal". I took a number of things for a long time then got off of them. When my life started to get out of control I thought maybe I needed to be on them again. I went into see the Dr and he thought I was Bipolar. Well after dealling with those meds I dropped them and went back to dealing with problems differently and watching the people I was around.

Abqbronco
06-17-2009, 06:07 PM
youre telling me kids having too much energy is a bad thing? heres an idea: dont let them sit inside and play video games all day so they get built up energy, let them/make them go outside and do **** so they dont turn into fat asses.

There is a kid that lives near us that has been diagnosed with ADHD. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but this is a grossly uninformed opinion. There is something wrong with our neighbor and he and his parents struggle everyday with it.

As for the medication, it is a constant battle to get him the right dose and his parents are constantly adjusting it with the Doctors help. There have been times he looks like a zombie and other times he can't stop doing the same thing over and over. I really feel for him and his parents but they seem to be getting a handle on it most of the time.

Not much help I suppose.

DBroncos4life
06-17-2009, 06:10 PM
For me growing up it wasn't about enegry. The drugs never took that away from me it just made me focus on school work. As I got older my energy level did get affected by the drugs.

mr007
06-17-2009, 06:11 PM
youre telling me kids having too much energy is a bad thing? heres an idea: dont let them sit inside and play video games all day so they get built up energy, let them/make them go outside and do **** so they dont turn into fat asses.

Read my OP and tell me where I said anything about kids.

Spider
06-17-2009, 06:12 PM
its a made up disorder. apparently having energy is a bad thing and requires medication.

Holy **** , we agree , well almost ..........Mroo7 I was 50 pounds when I was a year old ( Grandpa wanted to name me tank ;D ) well as i got older I was still big , so the doc put me on Ritilan , then the diagnosed me ADHD , they wanted to put me on more medicine , mom and Dad said no , and made me work , gave me alot of chores ( I was the only 11 year old bucking 90 pound bails in all of Brighton Colo ;D , but it worked , find something constructive to do , lifting weights , pole dancing , whatever , just make sure you enjoy it , if that doesnt work , then go on the meds ...........but as a last resort .......

BMarsh615
06-17-2009, 06:13 PM
What do you mean by a zombie? Also, do you think you still have it or have you gotten past it?

It's kind of hard to explain... I always had to be doing something when I was on Adderall. I didn't like having conversations with people... it just felt like I had to get stuff done. Like during lunch I couldn't eat and I didn't want to talk to people so I would be in the Library working on stuff that didn't have to be done for weeks. I got straight A's on the stuff though.

When I wasn't on it I never could get anything done and I was always talking to people. I was a completely different person when I was on the stuff.

I haven't taken Adderall for about 6 years, but I don't think I have outgrown ADHD. I still have trouble focusing on stuff that doesn't interest me, I get distracted pretty easily and just drift off and have to get myself back on track.

BMarsh615
06-17-2009, 06:15 PM
its a made up disorder. apparently having energy is a bad thing and requires medication.

I got expelled from 3 schools in high school because of that made up disorder.

Los Broncos
06-17-2009, 06:16 PM
I was diagnosed with it as a young kid.

I took Ritalin for 9 years and went to many therapy sessions and other group sessions.

But it sure has carried into adulthood, taking Paxil really helps, but is it a psychological thing or is it really working?

Some time people have a tendency of thinking just because I'm taking a pill it must be working.

Spider
06-17-2009, 06:17 PM
no Substitute for hard work ......... I wonder how many hard workers back in the day had ADHD ...... the key is find something you love to do and do it all you can ........

Chris
06-17-2009, 06:17 PM
Adderall will give you depression for years. It's basically speed. That's another cases of a product that wasn't properly tested before it was allowed on the market in the US. Drugs of its nature are banned in many places worldwide.

I was diagnosed with ADD of the non-hyperactive variant.

Nothing has helped me more than taking fish oils 3 times daily. I recommend Omega Brite http://www.omegabrite.com/ . After two weeks (i've been taking it seven months) it honestly changed my life as far as focus is concerned and I feel fricking healthy and amazing. I don't have any ties to these guys... their stuff is just the most concentrated on the market (without exceeding your daily limit).

I'm not a vitamin guy but honestly if you've got ADD forget all the weird brain changing drugs that are marketed to you and try fish oils.

Edit: To respond to some of the other posts - ADD exists, it's just very manageable. That said, I don't have ADHD... and my cousin has struggled mightily with that. I recommend extremely hard workouts at the gym for one... makes you sleep better and will probably kick out some of that hyperactivity.

DBroncos4life
06-17-2009, 06:18 PM
It's kind of hard to explain... I always had to be doing something when I was on Adderall. I didn't like having conversations with people... it just felt like I had to get stuff done. Like during lunch I couldn't eat and I didn't want to talk to people so I would be in the Library working on stuff that didn't have to be done for weeks. I got straight A's on the stuff though.

When I wasn't on it I never could get anything done and I was always talking to people. I was a completely different person when I was on the stuff.

I haven't taken Adderall for about 6 years, but I don't think I have outgrown ADHD. I still have trouble focusing on stuff that doesn't interest me, I get distracted pretty easily and just drift off and have to get myself back on track.
I cant remember what I was on that made me not even care if I talked to my friends. Thats not a good side effect lol.

PRBronco
06-17-2009, 06:20 PM
I was diagnosed with it in my 3rd year of University, didn't have it as a kid, but they think I got it from a series of concussions in Grade 12, because my grades began a steady decline after that, haha. It was just like I completely lost the ability to concentrate, it was like instead of plunging into something, I just kept skipping across the surface. Very frustrating in engineering school, I had no idea what was wrong. They eventually put me on Ritalin and it was a big help. I don't take it so much any more because I don't like to think I'm dependent on something, and I get dizzy spells when I'm coming off it. Definitely worth taking if your ADD is affecting your job or life though.

BMarsh615
06-17-2009, 06:21 PM
I cant remember what I was on that made me not even care if I talked to my friends. Thats not a good side effect lol.

That stuff sucks. I was getting straight A's and was in the best shape of my life but I was freaking miserable when I was taking it.

mr007
06-17-2009, 06:22 PM
Holy **** , we agree , well almost ..........Mroo7 I was 50 pounds when I was a year old ( Grandpa wanted to name me tank ;D ) well as i got older I was still big , so the doc put me on Ritilan , then the diagnosed me ADHD , they wanted to put me on more medicine , mom and Dad said no , and made me work , gave me alot of chores ( I was the only 11 year old bucking 90 pound bails in all of Brighton Colo ;D , but it worked , find something constructive to do , lifting weights , pole dancing , whatever , just make sure you enjoy it , if that doesnt work , then go on the meds ...........but as a last resort .......

I'm sure there have been many mis-diagnosed cases of it. My issue is not finding something constructive to do, I have no problem doing that when I'm not at work (sports, lifting, being social etc).

My problem stems from focus on anything that doesn't completely capture my interest and I tend to drift or shift focus to other things. While it hasn't caused a problem in my career at this point (thanks genes), it has created a bit of internal chaos where I'm disorganized, lose things, struggle to pay attention to anything that doesn't completely capture my interest, drift in thought, force myself to work under pressure, etc.

Anyone can go on Google and attempt to diagnose themselves, but recently I started checking various symtops of ADHD and many of them match my characteristics and I've found specific ways to cope with some of my flaws.

I'm not trying to say I definitely have it, I'm just trying to see if other people have been properly diagnosed and have somehow overcome some of these traits that I view as obstacles. It sucks to be in an environment where you can be proactive but have a lack of interest for whatever reason.

Chris
06-17-2009, 06:24 PM
This thread lacks focus.

mr007
06-17-2009, 06:24 PM
Adderall will give you depression for years. It's basically speed. That's another cases of a product that wasn't properly tested before it was allowed on the market in the US. Drugs of its nature are banned in many places worldwide.

I was diagnosed with ADD of the non-hyperactive variant.

Nothing has helped me more than taking fish oils 3 times daily. I recommend Omega Brite http://www.omegabrite.com/ . After two weeks (i've been taking it seven months) it honestly changed my life as far as focus is concerned and I feel fricking healthy and amazing. I don't have any ties to these guys... their stuff is just the most concentrated on the market (without exceeding your daily limit).

I'm not a vitamin guy but honestly if you've got ADD forget all the weird brain changing drugs that are marketed to you and try fish oils.

Edit: To respond to some of the other posts - ADD exists, it's just very manageable. That said, I don't have ADHD... and my cousin has struggled mightily with that. I recommend extremely hard workouts at the gym for one... makes you sleep better and will probably kick out some of that hyperactivity.

So taking the fish oils actually helped you concentrate more? Was this specifically on subjects and items that you found you didn't have that much interest in or is this overall??

mr007
06-17-2009, 06:25 PM
I was diagnosed with it in my 3rd year of University, didn't have it as a kid, but they think I got it from a series of concussions in Grade 12, because my grades began a steady decline after that, haha. It was just like I completely lost the ability to concentrate, it was like instead of plunging into something, I just kept skipping across the surface. Very frustrating in engineering school, I had no idea what was wrong. They eventually put me on Ritalin and it was a big help. I don't take it so much any more because I don't like to think I'm dependent on something, and I get dizzy spells when I'm coming off it. Definitely worth taking if your ADD is affecting your job or life though.

The skipping across the surface thing is a pretty good analogy of how I typically feel.

Spider
06-17-2009, 06:26 PM
I'm sure there have been many mis-diagnosed cases of it. My issue is not finding something constructive to do, I have no problem doing that when I'm not at work (sports, lifting, being social etc).

My problem stems from focus on anything that doesn't completely capture my interest and I tend to drift or shift focus to other things. I think everyone suffers from that , I can focus on chess , but not checkers or backgammon , I can focus behind the wheel , but all over the place when not working .......

BMarsh615
06-17-2009, 06:27 PM
So taking the fish oils actually helped you concentrate more? Was this specifically on subjects and items that you found you didn't have that much interest in or is this overall??

One of my teachers was against people taking medications for ADHD and said she read a number of studies that a good/bad diet affects your concentration levels.

Watermelon is supposed to be a good thing to eat to help you focus.

tsiguy96
06-17-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm sure there have been many mis-diagnosed cases of it. My issue is not finding something constructive to do, I have no problem doing that when I'm not at work (sports, lifting, being social etc).

My problem stems from focus on anything that doesn't completely capture my interest and I tend to drift or shift focus to other things. While it hasn't caused a problem in my career at this point (thanks genes), it has created a bit of internal chaos where I'm disorganized, lose things, struggle to pay attention to anything that doesn't completely capture my interest, drift in thought, force myself to work under pressure, etc.

Anyone can go on Google and attempt to diagnose themselves, but recently I started checking various symtops of ADHD and many of them match my characteristics and I've found specific ways to cope with some of my flaws.

I'm not trying to say I definitely have it, I'm just trying to see if other people have been properly diagnosed and have somehow overcome some of these traits that I view as obstacles. It sucks to be in an environment where you can be proactive but have a lack of interest for whatever reason.

that my friend means you are in the wrong career :)

im studying for strength and conditioning because its the only job that i will ever be interested in, can pay attention to and want to do forever (atleast from what i can tell now). if i were to get into a job just because without really wanting to do it, id get fired for sure.

mr007
06-17-2009, 06:38 PM
One of my teachers was against people taking medications for ADHD and said she read a number of studies that a good/bad diet affects your concentration levels.

Watermelon is supposed to be a good thing to eat to help you focus.

just read a few pages on ADHD diet, my source of foods definitely isn't a problem.

DBroncos4life
06-17-2009, 07:07 PM
just read a few pages on ADHD diet, my source of foods definitely isn't a problem.

The ADHD diet sucks you know what foods contain stuff I couldn't eat?

The Best kinds!!!!

OABB
06-17-2009, 07:16 PM
does not exist. at all... what is sad, is that the medications can actually mess you up and give you side effects that will never go away. So those kids you know that have something "really wrong" with them, are usually medicated and that is why they have something wrong with them.


Its the saem with depression. It does not exist in a clinical sense, but the medications can make you depressed and even suicidal. It's all just a scam to make money.

I know this because I have been working on a documentary about meds for 4 years....I went into it with an open mind, and even a pro drug stance, but the facts I have found are astonishing.


DO NOT TAKE ANY MEDICATIONS FOR ADD OR DEPRESSION!

PERIOD.





also, did you watch ghostbusters when you were a kid? That is known to cause problems.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 07:21 PM
Has anyone been diagnosed with this? Did you go through a psych? If so, how have things changed for you since being diagnosed??

I actually think I've had this for a very long time. I also kind of think it's over diagnosed but want to hear some thoughts. I have one friend that takes Adderall for it everyday. I'm not sure I'd want to go that route, I've had it before and it definitely helps me increase my focus to tasks at hand instead of drifting all over the place.

Anyway, if you have some experience in this arena, please share!

Yep had it all my life but didn't really get anything done until I went to college. Before that I was always in sports which really helped as a release. But college not so much. I didn't have the run of the mill diagnosis. Took the Brain Scan and went through a lot of evals.

If you look at my old report cards the teachers always said I was enthusiastic and a great student but I had problems sitting still. I would get up and walk circles around my desk and things like that.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 07:22 PM
does not exist. at all...

yeah whatever you do don't listen to this idiot but DO research medications and alternatives before you decide.

Whats funny is people think ADHD can't focus but actually that is far from the truth. When I am into something I enter hyper focus mode and ignore everything else. But when I am not I last about 2 minutes.

You just have to practice at focusing. I set a timer and continually added to the time. Really learned how to focus.

TheDave
06-17-2009, 07:29 PM
yeah whatever you do don't listen to this idiot but DO research medications and alternatives before you decide.



Ditto...

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 07:31 PM
What do you mean by a zombie? Also, do you think you still have it or have you gotten past it?

Dude any creativity you have is gone. You just go through the motions. You can do other things. Playing sports is great for ADHD types. Get into a basketball league or other sport.

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:32 PM
I am telling ya , Hard physical labor is the cure .......... The harder the work , the better off you are

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:33 PM
Take up boxing , nothing like a guy punching you in the face wanting to kick your ass helps you in focusing ..........

TheDave
06-17-2009, 07:36 PM
I am telling ya , Hard physical labor is the cure .......... The harder the work , the better off you are

Though I completely agree with you... thats tough if your still in school or your career has you at a desk.

but you are right good old fashioned physical labor will do the trick.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:17 PM
Though I completely agree with you... thats tough if your still in school or your career has you at a desk.

but you are right good old fashioned physical labor will do the trick.

;D yeah I can see the problem with my plan now

OABB
06-17-2009, 08:18 PM
Though I completely agree with you... thats tough if your still in school or your career has you at a desk.

but you are right good old fashioned physical labor will do the trick.

so basically, if you do something boring you'll have a hard time focusing, but being physical will work?

seeing as how you called me an idiot, I would like to point out how inane what you are saying is....

if you have pent up energy, than you will be "hyper-active"? duh! we are physical beings... a desk job should bore you- idiot.

OABB
06-17-2009, 08:20 PM
yeah whatever you do don't listen to this idiot but DO research medications and alternatives before you decide.

Whats funny is people think ADHD can't focus but actually that is far from the truth. When I am into something I enter hyper focus mode and ignore everything else. But when I am not I last about 2 minutes.

You just have to practice at focusing. I set a timer and continually added to the time. Really learned how to focus.

so...when you aren't interested in things, you don't focus. but when you are interested you do.

you need meds!

oh yeah I am the idiot here.

bronco_boi_5280
06-17-2009, 08:32 PM
no Substitute for hard work ......... I wonder how many hard workers back in the day had ADHD ...... the key is find something you love to do and do it all you can ........

There is a substitute for hard work, it's called a union.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 08:41 PM
so...when you aren't interested in things, you don't focus. but when you are interested you do.

you need meds!

oh yeah I am the idiot here.

Actually where did I say I used meds? I said research and told him about other alternatives. But what you are saying is asinine. Thats your problem though not mine.

You probably think most medical issues are a figment of imagination. But science and my brain scan tell me otherwise. There are great behavioral techniques though but you just go ahead and assume all people who believe in it are on meds. Idiot.

gunns
06-17-2009, 08:45 PM
My son was diagnosed when he was 11. The teacher noticed that he got up 20 times in an hour, to look at something, get a drink, just mindless things. I had noticed some little things, but he wasn't bouncing off the walls. They prescribed ritalin. He stopped doing those things but he definitely turned into a zombie. The kid had a wonderful sense of humor and it was gone. I took him off within 6 months. We continued the therapy which was more helpful.

The Dr told us that it's hereditary. Well we immediately knew who he had gotten it from. Me. Everything some of you have described I've dealt with forever. I always viewed it as a lack of confidence on my part. Like Apa I would go gang busters on a project or activity I loved, then lose interest and I couldn't finish or go back. My son's diagnosis and the therapy opened my eyes to myself. I began working with my son in a concentrated effort to keep him focused and praising him for the good and letting the bad go or discussing it with him as us just having a conversation.

In the end both of us are successful in what we do. It may take a more concentrated effort but we are both very good at what we do. One thing is that both of us require alone time, more than others might. I thing it's to think out what we want to do or a project we might not really want to do. To this day one of my biggest struggles is sitting in a meeting. It's sheer torture. I just want to get up and I can't concentrate.

I notice my son still may start a project and not finish but hell who of us doesn't? I wouldn't say do or don't take the drugs because I'm sure each person is different but it didn't work for my son in what I saw as a positive way.

TheDave
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
so basically, if you do something boring you'll have a hard time focusing, but being physical will work?

seeing as how you called me an idiot, I would like to point out how inane what you are saying is....

if you have pent up energy, than you will be "hyper-active"? duh! we are physical beings... a desk job should bore you- idiot.

Actually someone else called you an idiot... I just happen to agree with them.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 08:51 PM
My son was diagnosed when he was 11. The teacher noticed that he got up 20 times in an hour, to look at something, get a drink, just mindless things. I had noticed some little things, but he wasn't bouncing off the walls. They prescribed ritalin. He stopped doing those things but he definitely turned into a zombie. The kid had a wonderful sense of humor and it was gone. I took him off within 6 months. We continued the therapy which was more helpful.

The Dr told us that it's hereditary. Well we immediately knew who he had gotten it from. Me. Everything some of you have described I've dealt with forever. I always viewed it as a lack of confidence on my part. Like Apa I would go gang busters on a project or activity I loved, then lose interest and I couldn't finish or go back. My son's diagnosis and the therapy opened my eyes to myself. I began working with my son in a concentrated effort to keep him focused and praising him for the good and letting the bad go or discussing it with him as us just having a conversation.

In the end both of us are successful in what we do. It may take a more concentrated effort but we are both very good at what we do. One thing is that both of us require alone time, more than others might. I thing it's to think out what we want to do or a project we might not really want to do. To this day one of my biggest struggles is sitting in a meeting. It's sheer torture. I just want to get up and I can't concentrate.

I notice my son still may start a project and not finish but hell who of us doesn't? I wouldn't say do or don't take the drugs because I'm sure each person is different but it didn't work for my son in what I saw as a positive way.

Yep I know exactly what you mean Gunns. Really the main issue is people with ADHD just need a little more time to get certain things done. I know what you mean about meetings and I am in them all the time. If you see my notebook at work its a page of doodles with some notes. You really just need to know what you symptoms are and then you can combat them. I won't sit facing windows in meetings as I will day dream and not focus. I force myself to make eye contact with the people speaking because then I focus on them.

There is a book out there called the Davinci Method. Its not the end all be all and its only found on the internet but if you can find it read it as there are some great non medicinal techniques in it.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:01 PM
There is a substitute for hard work, it's called a union.

As if you knew your ass from a hole in the ground .....

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:04 PM
so basically, if you do something boring you'll have a hard time focusing, but being physical will work?

seeing as how you called me an idiot, I would like to point out how inane what you are saying is....

if you have pent up energy, than you will be "hyper-active"? duh! we are physical beings... a desk job should bore you- idiot.

Shoot low sheriff this one is riding a shetland ..... Look ADHD is a hyper active disorder , go out work in th e garden , get a project car , something that will keep you busy , something you like to help you focus

houghtam
06-17-2009, 09:11 PM
Look into Concerta. Worked wonders for me.

No peaks and valleys like Adderall or Ritalin, it's a time release.

Agree with most of the people about medication as a last resort, for the most part, but I can attest that it's helped me quite a bit.

OABB
06-17-2009, 10:19 PM
Actually where did I say I used meds? I said research and told him about other alternatives. But what you are saying is asinine. Thats your problem though not mine.

You probably think most medical issues are a figment of imagination. But science and my brain scan tell me otherwise. There are great behavioral techniques though but you just go ahead and assume all people who believe in it are on meds. Idiot.

please explain the brainscan in more detail....Did you consult a neuroscientist? I would never take meds for anything mental. no one knows enough to medicate. they used to drill through your eyes too...

I have said nothing asinine at all.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 10:29 PM
please explain the brainscan in more detail....Did you consult a neuroscientist? I would never take meds for anything mental. no one knows enough to medicate. they used to drill through your eyes too...

I have said nothing asinine at all.

To be able to actually say you have ADHD in college at least where I went you have to have more than just a doctors diagnosis. They actually take MRI's of your brain. The signature of a person with ADHD is different than others. They use it to diagnose Bi-polar disorder and other mental illnesses.

Its expensive and not covered by most insurance but its gaining ground.

OABB
06-17-2009, 10:34 PM
To be able to actually say you have ADHD in college at least where I went you have to have more than just a doctors diagnosis. They actually take MRI's of your brain. The signature of a person with ADHD is different than others. They use it to diagnose Bi-polar disorder and other mental illnesses.

Its expensive and not covered by most insurance but its gaining ground.

different how, specifically? you do understand that brain scans are just guesses and no one at this time has a map of any kind as to what they mean.


you do realize it's still just a theory right?

I need more than that if i am going to take mood altering or brain chemistry altering drugs.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 10:42 PM
you keep going back te meds as if thats the end all be all. Your fear of them makes you disbelieve any disorder. That is just plain asinine. There are many doctors who will not treat you with meds especially if you request to try alternatives. I tried the meds and while they worked great for a short period of time they killed my creativity and I hated them. So I don't take them and won't again and don't miss them.

Just because you think meds are bad doesn't mean this is a real illness. You are being closed minded and a plain idiot about this.

As for understanding the brain scan. I am not a doctor but they sat down and showed me comparisons and explained about the receptors and what was going on. Just understanding the problem will make a world of difference.

OABB
06-17-2009, 11:01 PM
you keep going back te meds as if thats the end all be all. Your fear of them makes you disbelieve any disorder. That is just plain asinine. There are many doctors who will not treat you with meds especially if you request to try alternatives. I tried the meds and while they worked great for a short period of time they killed my creativity and I hated them. So I don't take them and won't again and don't miss them.

Just because you think meds are bad doesn't mean this is a real illness. You are being closed minded and a plain idiot about this.

As for understanding the brain scan. I am not a doctor but they sat down and showed me comparisons and explained about the receptors and what was going on. Just understanding the problem will make a world of difference.

Believe me, I understand this stuff like very few people. I am not trying to be a dick here, but I know what i am talking about.

mr007
06-17-2009, 11:06 PM
Dude any creativity you have is gone. You just go through the motions. You can do other things. Playing sports is great for ADHD types. Get into a basketball league or other sport.

Thanks for the posts man, my issue really doesn't show up too much outside of work. I definitely have to concentrate on people's conversations, but for the most part I'm very active when I'm not doing the career thing.

Meetings are horrible for me.... I end up drawing stick figures pretty much the whole time and I've trained my mind to pick up on specific key phrases or words that actually apply to something I may need to respond to which has kept me successful.

I've only done basic research, but do you have some recommendations as far as sites to visit or things to read that may assist in focusing?

mr007
06-17-2009, 11:08 PM
The ADHD diet sucks you know what foods contain stuff I couldn't eat?

The Best kinds!!!!

Superbad reference? :)

footstepsfrom#27
06-17-2009, 11:09 PM
I'm going to give you a perspective that's different than any on this board, and one you probably won't run accross randomly anywhere else because it's unique in terms of the fact that it combines personal and professional experience over an extended period of time coupled with research and activism as well. You're free to take this for what you think it's worth but I should tell you where I'm coming from first. In the past whenever I've attempted to converse with people via the internet on this, I find a tremendous amount of opposition to what I'm saying, and I've learned from experience that this issue is emotional to some people. It's not something I will debate or argue in here, because having done so numerous times on the web over the last decade or so...I know from past experience that such discussion consume literally dozens of pages, hundreds of posts, and they solve nothing because many people choose to believe what they've had doctors tell them.

So having said that...here ya go:

I spent nearly 20 years working in and around the mental health field, both inside and later as a consultant. Nearly 15 years of that time was spent in the Texas mental health system, both public and private. That means that I've spent roughly 40,000 hours in close proximinty with people diagnosed with all kinds of psychiagtric disorders, and have had an extended opportunity to witness the impact that psych medications and other treatments have on people. I witnessed this while having the benefit of an both education that helped me understand what I was looking at, as well as the career experience behind the scenes. I mention this because what I'm telling you very few people who work in this field will ever admit to you if they're aware of it, and most are not aware.

Psychiatrists do not actually spend time with their patients. A psychiatrist is interested in one thing and one thinig only...what "diagnosis" should he give you that supports you taking drugs he will prescribe, but working first on the ground floor and then in case management, I had that opportunity to see and spend time with the patients themselves and observe the flaws and hidden secrets in the system. Probably no psychiatrist you'll ever meet can say they've spent this much time directly with their own patients, which is why I want you to understand that aspect and why it's so important. 99.9 % of people you ever talk to about this issue will tell you what they heard from someone, or what they think based on them or someone they know taking these medications. Psychiatrists themselves do not research these drugs...they have no reason to. Nor is time spent with the patient observing them what they do or what they're interested in. These issues are extremely important to me, and they have to do with personal and professional ethics as well. Between 1991 and 2001, I advocated for honesty and integrity inside the mental health system here and was terminated 7 times from positions because I insisted on truth over politics. I also reported and testified in over a dozen cases of medical fraud and mallpractice as well as patients rights abuses including faciities that covered up suicides, illegal use of ECT (shock treatment) and incidents of sexual and physical abuse related to staff against psych patients...I was finally black listed in the field before I left in 2001. During the course of this, I also left a masters program halfway through rather than devote a professional degree because of the ethics in this field.

During the early-90's while still working on my masters I began having serious reservations about many things associated with psychiatric treatments, disorders, therapies and most important...psychiatric drugs. From 1992 till 2002 I read and studied voraciously on these topics, delved into both published and unpublished research, spoke to hundreds of doctors and other clinicians and to patients across the entire range of diagnostics from severe depression to psychosis and also fad "disorders" like disassociative disorders (multiple personalities), and numerous adolescent-specific diagnostics. During this time I spent 6 years researching aspects of child/adolescent treatments, and especially how these disorders are handled in both the public health arenas and public education and designed adolescent intervention programs that don't utilize drug therapy or psychiatric diagnosis.

Here is my conclusion: The vast majority of psychiatric disorders, includiing ADHD, have no solid scientific basis in fact. Most are based on extremely dicey factual propositions, and the politics of this field is overwhelmingly committed to what we term, "biological" psychiatry, the belief that psychiatric and emotional problems are rooted in the chemistry of the brain. This is highly, HIGHLY dubious, and it's the PR engine that drives a mult-billion dollar drug business with expanding markets that include children as young as 3 years old. At one time, so called "talk therapy"...the belief that psychiatric issues resulted from environmental and emotional trauma...ruled the psych field. In the early '70's, biological psychiatrists formed alliances with pharmaceutical companies, attacked the credibility of the talk therapists with psuedo sceintific studies and pumped millions into supporting the American Psychiatric Association, as well as sponsored thousands of fellowships and other academic grants that churned out propaganda that managed to make their view the prevailing view...the result is what you see today; an unholy alliance of drug companies, highly paid doctors and very lucrative psychiatric treatment facilities working together in what is essentially the largest legal drug cartel in the world.

Before proceeding further, I suggest you take a look at two books, there are many others you can find with a Google search, but both of these are by one of the best experts in the field. Dr. Peter Breggin, is a 50 year, Harvard trained career psychiatrist and a board certified psychologist as well, which is very rare. He's also a passionate advocate of reform in this field and has been black listed, slandered and lied about by those with a financial axe to grind. You will find some of these attacks all over the web...believe me when I tell you...it's all utter bull****. Breggin is the the defacto expert of record in hundreds of lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly, the Prozac manufactuer. As such, he's been inside the sensitve and legally protected corporate information you can only view with a subpeona, not just the public information that most people have access to. I suggest you read Toxic Psychiatry, and then read Talking Back to Ritilin, both by this author. Read the one on Ritilin AFTER you read Toxic Psychiatry.

All psychiatric drugs are either psychologically or physically addictive on some level, often depending on the individual. All psych drugs have not only potential side effects, but more importantly, can cause brain damage over time, or other maladies like Tardive Diskinesia, a neuro-muscular disorder that causes incurable facial ticks and bizarre movements of the tongue and facial muscles. There are in fact, many other physical problems caused by long term exposure to these drugs.

Those who told you there is no such thing as ADHD are essentially correct. ADHD, like many other psychiatric disorders, is a marketing tool used by the psychiatric intervention industry to sell psycho pharmaceutical drugs. No doctor in the world can assure you that you have this "disease" because no medical test exists to reveal it. The test given kids by a QMHP (Qualified Mental Health Practitioner) like a doctor or social worker, is entirely subjective, is based on answers to questions that the majority of people...certainly the majority of children...mostly have in common. No blood test or other physical test exists that can diagnose ADHD. Some people will tell you that PET scans or other brain imaging examinations support the diagnostics. Do not believe this...it's a flat out lie. The truth is...no matter who you are, but especially if you're a child, when you go for a diagnostic evaluation on ADD/ADHD you will probably be told you have it. In 15 years working mostly in adolescent psychiatry, I saw literally hundreds, probably thousands, of children who were administered this test. I have NEVER seen a child who was submitted for evaluation that was NOT diagnosed with the disorder...NEVER.

ADHD is a collection of behaviors that either annoy adults, or in some cases represent psycho social adjustments adults themselves make in response to common stressors and what has become an information based, high velocity society where concentration is sometimes subjected to circuit overload. Drugs like Adderall and Ritilin are dangerous, and highly addictive. Ritilin is Methylphenidate, a dangerous stimulant classified by the World Health Organization as a dangerous drug in the same class as cocain. In fact Ritilin has many of the same addiction pathways as cocain and speed, and can irreparably damage the mind and the body. People who tell you otherwise are either hiding this fact or they're unaware of it. No longitudinal (long term) research studies exist that examine the long term impact of drugs like Ritilin on the developing child brain, but studies in adults have shown damage. In essence...we know very little about the long term impact of most of these drugs. The drug studies themselves are highly skewed to the advantage of the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture them. Few people realize that pharmaceutical companies are actually permitted to hire their own doctors to do these studes, that studies are generally done to study if the drug is effective, not the safety of the drug. Read Breggin and others on the Prozac trials and how Eli Lilly has quietyly partnered with the FDA to keep this kind of information from the public.

From 1994-2001 I consulted with over 400 parents involved with schools attempting to put their kids on psych drugs like Ritilin...that's because schools have a financial stake in seeing children diagnosed with these disorder, as well as a social one. I was also responsible for serving on court mandated public school task forces that put me in contact with this. Medicated kids are easier to control and children with various diagnosed disorders irequiring drugs like Ritilin garner additional money from the State Education Boards, in some cases thousands of dollars a year. In 1997 I was at the epicenter of a state and federal investigation into how schools work with psychiatric hospitals and other private providers and other diagnosticians to put kids on these drugs. This investigation resulted in nearly 100 mental health facilites and other clincis in the Dallas area alone being either fined, sued or eventually forced to close their doors and included the largest fine ever levied by the federal government against a private health care provider. Texas Attorney General Dan Morales spearheaded this and it went nationwide within 6 months. The resulting fallout caused a shockwave in mental health treatment that is still reverberating in the form of how and what HMO's and other managed health providers were willing to pay for. That caused the bottom to drop from the in-patient psych treatment industry within 3 years, and the industry has tried to make up the difference in revenues with new strategies, including the wholesale introduction of these drug treatments into schools. Issus of patients rights abuses, phony diagnostics, insurance and medicare fraud, illegal and unethical treatments, and my favorite...paid headhunters in public schools like school guidance counselors and nurses getting paid under the table in exchange for psych referrals that often trigger as the result of so called "zero tolerance" policies...gave me a bird's eye view of this field and the damage it can do to people.

If you want to know how to deal with your problem, read the two books I reccomended, because that issue is way bigger than I can go into, but suffice to say that these issues can be corrected with other means. I've seen it happen numerous times. In the meantime...do your own research. Dig into this in depth before you continue taking medications or worse...put kids on them. Make an informed decision...it will take you considerable time and effort but it's something you need to do if you're being told you need to take psych drugs.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 11:22 PM
Believe me, I understand this stuff like very few people. I am not trying to be a dick here, but I know what i am talking about.

I respect that but you are making assumptions based on your bias. Its not made up its a disorder and not one that needs to be treated with meds.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the posts man, my issue really doesn't show up too much outside of work. I definitely have to concentrate on people's conversations, but for the most part I'm very active when I'm not doing the career thing.

Meetings are horrible for me.... I end up drawing stick figures pretty much the whole time and I've trained my mind to pick up on specific key phrases or words that actually apply to something I may need to respond to which has kept me successful.

I've only done basic research, but do you have some recommendations as far as sites to visit or things to read that may assist in focusing?

Want my real opinion? You have a career so therefor you must be successful as you have a job. So if you take a personal inventory you will see that you have already created coping mechanisms to help you focus and you named one already.

ADHD has this negativity towards it but it isn't bad. Most successful people would be diagnosed with it. Its a bunch of traits that don't fit into a conformist society so people make you feel bad. But its possible to live in both.

Read books like 7 habits of highly successful people and 1 minute manager. They have great tips that will help you focus and complete tasks.

I bet you start projects and at some point you move on to others never to finish what you started. Well force yourself to finish something or force yourself to focus and not doodle for 5 minutes then 6 minutes.

But please don't think a pill will cure it all. PM with questions if you want as they come up.

Chris
06-17-2009, 11:40 PM
So taking the fish oils actually helped you concentrate more? Was this specifically on subjects and items that you found you didn't have that much interest in or is this overall??

Overall. i am much more alert.

Hulamau
06-17-2009, 11:49 PM
If you're truly serious about addressing this issue of ADHD once and for all without toxic mind-numbing drugs that are like using an elephant gun on a tree stump and only trying to temporarily suppress symptoms while actually making the issue worse longer term, and any other neurotransmitter deficit-based disorder such as depression, chronic anxiety, insomnia, obesity, Parkinsons, early stage Alzheimers/ dementia, many hormone imbalances and chronic pain ............ and also for curing the dreaded 'Nervous Nelly Syndrome' including delusions of McD being the Devil

Then look no further than here www.neuroassist.com

Its a cutting edge program using very sophisticated amino-acid based therapy (proteins) guided by state of the art lab testing and all run by medical doctors, and with 900 clinics around the country now administering it. No voodoo or quack science whatsoever.

University of Minnesota Medical School is in the middle of an extensive research project on the program and the latest Johns Hopkins Neurology textbook published in March 09 dedicates an entire chapter to this potentially breakthrough treatment and the new 'Bundle Damage Theory of Depression and Neurotransmitter diseases' that supersedes the 45 year old shaky Mono-Amine theory that all the reuptake inhibitor drugs are currently based on. In fact ll the ADHD drugs and even cocaine are either dopamine/ norepinephrine/ epinephrine reuptake inhibitors as well. Not so different that Prozac and Paxil are for serotonin.

The Bundle Damage theory and this program actually addresses the underlying biochemical basis/results of all of these conditions rather than just trying to treat the symptoms with a load of toxic drugs that wind up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Neuro-Research and the University if Minnesota have the largest human neurotransmitter database in the world by far with over 1.5 million patient days of records to back up their program.

The program is very precise and absolutely rock solid. If you want your kids to settle down and stop bouncing off the walls with plenty of energy and bright minds, this is a 'no-brainier' all natural program without causing any harm and wont interfere with any other drugs.

A clinical trial at North Texas showed complete resolution of ADHD symptoms among 30% of 89 kids in 5 weeks and 70% after 8 weeks.
When accounting fro all those who followed the protocol precisely the results were 95% by 8 months.

For adults on things like Paxil and Prozac that may offer some symptom relief early on, but then gradually drain what little remaining serotonin and dopamine you had left before you started, with increasing side effects, this program can quickly and safely restore the full effectiveness of those drugs at the very least and gradually allow you to go off of them altogether.

I've seen this truly help nine different people I know personally, mostly from some form of depression or insomnia and one with diagnosed ADHD in dramatic fashion. And I did it myself, mainly for optimizing well being and energy as an official old fart, and to help with some long term chronic pain from a broken neck twenty years ago, and I cant say enough about it!

It does take a little discipline at first and you must follow the amino acid formula dosing protocols religiously to work. It can take from two months to 6 months to get everything fully under control and all your serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine fully balanced again and in 'Phase 3' (those four are your master neurotransmitters from which all others are created or modulated). Rarely a bit longer depending on how longstanding the issue is and how much bundle damage to your neurons and synaptic NT receptors has taken place over the years.

Here's is a link to the new chapter from the Johns Hopkins textbook that describes the whole program in some detail for the more medically inclined among you. http://www.neuroassist.com/Hinz-depression-050208IK-web.pdf

The reason large amounts (at least 3 grams a day) of Omega 3 Fish Oils can help with ADHA as well as many other neurological functions is because it helps restore flexibility and function to neuron receptors in the brain, allowing you to get the most from whatever serotonin and dopamine you have, but it wont correct for a true deficit of neurotransmitters nor compensate for neuron damage like this program can. Definitely a good idea to use Fish oil as well though!

Hulamau
06-18-2009, 07:37 AM
I'm going to give you a perspective that's different than any on this board, and one you probably won't run across randomly anywhere else because it's unique in terms of the fact that it combines personal and professional experience over an extended period of time coupled with research and activism as well. You're free to take this for what you think it's worth but I should tell you where I'm coming from first. In the past whenever I've attempted to converse with people via the internet on this, I find a tremendous amount of opposition to what I'm saying, and I've learned from experience that this issue is emotional to some people. It's not something I will debate or argue in here, because having done so numerous times on the web over the last decade or so...I know from past experience that such discussion consume literally dozens of pages, hundreds of posts, and they solve nothing because many people choose to believe what they've had doctors tell them.

So having said that...here ya go: ...........................

We should probably go PM if you want to talk more about this one Footsteps, I agree with much of what you say about Big Pharma and the culture of symptom/disease creation for the sake of selling more drugs , often drugs with toxic effects.

But its not that the suffering of these people isn't real either, and I doubt that is what you are implying, right?

Both sides of the coin need to be addressed, the biochemical side (just not solely with toxic drugs that only work on the level of symptoms for a short time while ignoring the fundamental systemic biochemical issues of imbalances and/or toxic and/or genetic neuronal damage. Plus dealing with any life and psychological response issues that my be exacerbated by the biochemical challenge.

There are really just a few basic core things going on that manifest as all these so-called separate diseases. A rather select group of biochemical/ imbalances and/or toxic or genetic damage to neurons and the nervous system. But the Big Pharma-controlled side of the medical establishment has little to no incentive for addressing these core issues when many of the modalities they would need are not patentable. I.E. amino acids in the case of neurotransmitter creation.

The problem is that the medical/Big Pharma cartel has focused so exclusively on the pharmacology of specific symptoms and 'disease labels'. And this view allows them to build one new toxic drug after another to suppress a few symptoms without every addressing the underlying biochemistry of the body as a whole, nor the behavioral side of the coin as you mention.

Life, and one's responses to it modulates neurotransmitters, and vice versa ... Neurotransmitter function is at the core of every experience one has from blinking your eyes, feeling awe at a great sunset, Feeling fear with a tiger on your tail or being ten miles deep in some depressive hole. Looking at only one side of the coin isn't a complete picture.

These re-uptake inhibitor drugs can NOT create one new molecule in the body of serotonin, dopamine or norepi. They only fool the brain and nervous system into thinking you have more S, D or R than you really do for a while by forcing the ill person's already limited levels of NTs to stay in the synaptic junction too long.

It may help for a while, but then the COMT and MAO enzymes in the body rush out to metabolize the S & D staying too long in the synapse mistaking it as excess serotonin or dopamine, and then you wind up further depleting the already low levels of neuros making the whole show even worse.

That is when all the side effects from serious NT deficits start to show up like tardive dyskenisa, suicidal thinking, listless apathy, even worse depression, loss of libido and the whole list.

Another reason for all the terrible side effects is that both serotonin and dopamine, two big guns of the brain and body, are treated in isolation and not as two essential legs of one core master neurotransmitter as they should be.

As such, only focusing on increasing serotonin and not dopamine, or vice versa eventually deplete the other and then both stop working well at all!
No one should EVER take 5HTP alone or Tyrosine alone for long!

A classic example being Parkinson treatment with only Carba-dopa and Leva-dopa. It works fine for a while in providing the precursors of dopamine generation, but then it depletes all the serotonin and a whole host of other terrible side effects begins. Eventually the dopamine stops working too and the patient is left with terrible tics and rigidity and the whole nine yards! Adding a little 5HTP plus co factors and enough LCystiene (to prevent glutathione depletion) to the Leva-dopa and it will start to work again and really help Parkinson patients dramatically with minimal symptoms (assuming they aren't too far deteriorated)

Its not that the biological basis for this suffering is bogus at all, as your post could be seen to imply, but I doubt you really mean? But that the Drug and medical establishment is still in the relative dark ages about how to deal with it. And Big Pharma in specific has an ass backward agenda that almost insures more and more new disease/ symptom labeling in order to make more specific drugs that wreck side effect-laden havoc with overall systemic balance while never even addressing the underlying biological side of the coin they claim to be addressing.

The bottom-line is that there is no drug in this world that can create new serotonin or dopamine in the brain. The ONLY way on earth to actually create new S & D is through protein-based foods as precursors for the bodies own conversion process, and there is no way on earth to restore a significant deficit by food alone ,as the more severely depleted people would need a truck load of protein a day to even make a dent.

So for functional repletion it requires Specific free form amino acids like 5HTP for Serotonin and Tyrosine and Mucuna Pruriens for the catecholamine neuros like Dopamine, along with their necessary nutrient co-factors.
Plus, drug companies cant make a dime off of Tyrosine or 5HTP as they can't patent it! And besides, the convenient Monoamine theory of depression that never held much clinical water, provides clever pharmaceutical rationales for manipulating whatever NT's a person may have (usually limited if they are looking for relief) in order to lock patients in to a Catch 22 with these neurotransmitter depleting drugs and make a bloody fortune sustaining people in illness, for some with a bit less depression perhaps, but not really well.

For some, they can get a period of relief that is true, but when you really look at the objective research it is a small number that benefit for long and very large numbers do eventually have side effects as bad or worse than what they took it for.

In any event, it IS a Biochemical issue Footsteps, just like it has strong psychological and life style components to it as well and while some people do improve from talk therapy alone, particularly those with less severe or less long standing problems, since one's thinking and convictions also influences the conversion and assimilation of neurotransmitters. But also, vice versa, having enough neuros the right amount and balance between serotonin and the three catecholamines, has a very definite positive effect on one's symptoms, outlook on life and behavior. It works both ways!

The tragedy is the drug companies are looking at the biological side of the coin down the wrong end of the gun barrel ... a scenario they no doubt fully realize in-house , but have too much momentum and inertia invested in the partly dysfunctional Monoamine theory and their cash cow of reuptake inhibitor drugs of all sorts, even for anti-psychotic meds to reverse course now.

Much too large an investment to say "Ooopps we were looking at this the wrong way from the beginning". Especially when the right way is very difficult to patent and impossible to make into a single pill a day!

mr007
06-18-2009, 11:32 AM
I love how some of you on here have such great knowledge and advice on subjects such as these. Thanks Footsteps, Apa, and Hula.

I think there really are multiple sides to the ADHD story. Personally, I think my version of it was self-inflicted through childhood and not having proper discipline as a kid. I'd play video games for hours on end, procrastinate on absolutely everything, etc. I will be looking at non-perscribed ways to help change some of my childhood behaviours that have continued in my life.

broncswin
06-18-2009, 11:45 AM
youre telling me kids having too much energy is a bad thing? heres an idea: dont let them sit inside and play video games all day so they get built up energy, let them/make them go outside and do **** so they dont turn into fat asses.

Know what your talking about before you post that nonsense!! I have a 3 year old boy who is the most energetic little guy ever, he goes outside every possible chance he gets(there are no video games or other sh*t you speak of taking his outside and physical play time away), yet when it is time for him to sit and focus on a book, or just writing his name it is very hard for him. He has not been diagnosed with it, but there is always that possiblity. Do I agree with medicine, IDK, but I sure don't want to see my little guy getting in trouble in school because of ADHD!!

Have you ever been around kids or adults that have had this? This is not a joke, yes it is over diagnosed on many occasions, but by no means is it all because parents aren't getting their kids physical activity. Unless you've been thru it or around it, don't make dumb@$$ assumptions.

OABB
06-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Know what your talking about before you post that nonsense!! I have a 3 year old boy who is the most energetic little guy ever, he goes outside every possible chance he gets(there are no video games or other sh*t you speak of taking his outside and physical play time away), yet when it is time for him to sit and focus on a book, or just writing his name it is very hard for him. He has not been diagnosed with it, but there is always that possiblity. Do I agree with medicine, IDK, but I sure don't want to see my little guy getting in trouble in school because of ADHD!!

Have you ever been around kids or adults that have had this? This is not a joke, yes it is over diagnosed on many occasions, but by no means is it all because parents aren't getting their kids physical activity. Unless you've been thru it or around it, don't make dumb@$$ assumptions.

lol....he's ****ING THREE YEARS OLD! I COULDN'T READ OR WRITE LET ALONE BE INTERESTED IN ANY OF THAT BORING **** AT THREE.


LET HIM PLAY FOR CHRISTSAKES!

OABB
06-18-2009, 12:41 PM
I love how some of you on here have such great knowledge and advice on subjects such as these. Thanks Footsteps, Apa, and Hula.

I think there really are multiple sides to the ADHD story. Personally, I think my version of it was self-inflicted through childhood and not having proper discipline as a kid. I'd play video games for hours on end, procrastinate on absolutely everything, etc. I will be looking at non-perscribed ways to help change some of my childhood behaviours that have continued in my life.

this thread is hysterical.


ADD DOES NOT EXIST! you say it right here!

all cases are self inflicted. just like depression. YOU HAVE CONTROL OF YOUR ATTENTION SPAN, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

jesus christ!

alkemical
06-18-2009, 12:52 PM
I don't really know. I think it is a condition, but i think some of it is made up.

When i was 18-20 i was real scatter brained - but part of it was also all the information i took in, short attention span (internet generation) + job (Helpdesk for mindspring/earthlink) -

then a few years later i ended up helpless and was forced to deal with one thing at a time, and day to day.

I had a bit of a freak out - for 3 days i was zombified - but then after that - no more add.

I'm not saying go be homeless - but i'm saying that maybe you need something as "shocking" to snap you out of it.

I just don't like the drugs they give for this disorder, i think it's over diagnosed and i think it's causing much more long term damage.

I also think people just need to accept themselves for who they are.

It's like diagnosing people for bipolar. It does exist, but i think more people 'manufacture' the disease than are genetically predisposed to it.

(and i mean the sufferer manufactures it).

2KBack
06-18-2009, 01:05 PM
this thread is hysterical.


ADD DOES NOT EXIST! you say it right here!

all cases are self inflicted. just like depression. YOU HAVE CONTROL OF YOUR ATTENTION SPAN, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

jesus christ!

For someone who claims to have such in depth and secret knowledge of a disorder that can be very difficult to cope with, you are TERRIBLE at stating your case without being a dick.

ADD and now ADHD is very overdiagnosed, I agree. I also agree that one should be very careful about mind altering medications, especially with children. Still, ADD is very much a real disorder and comes in many forms beyond the advertised hyperactive child. I was diagnosed as a teenager and would never be confused for a person with an abundance of energy. I have also been diagnosed with depression (which often comes hand in hand with ADD in adults). I have never been medicated for either by my own choice. I simply use the knowledge of my disorders to aid myself in recognising my triggers, and to develop better coping mechanisms.

Don't confuse social dependence on self-medication with the creation of non-existant disorders.

wait a minute....are you a scientologist?

OABB
06-18-2009, 01:18 PM
For someone who claims to have such in depth and secret knowledge of a disorder that can be very difficult to cope with, you are TERRIBLE at stating your case without being a dick.

ADD and now ADHD is very overdiagnosed, I agree. I also agree that one should be very careful about mind altering medications, especially with children. Still, ADD is very much a real disorder and comes in many forms beyond the advertised hyperactive child. I was diagnosed as a teenager and would never be confused for a person with an abundance of energy. I have also been diagnosed with depression (which often comes hand in hand with ADD in adults). I have never been medicated for either by my own choice. I simply use the knowledge of my disorders to aid myself in recognising my triggers, and to develop better coping mechanisms.

Don't confuse social dependence on self-medication with the creation of non-existant disorders.

wait a minute....are you a scientologist?

no, not a scientologist...but they have this one thing right.

Depression, just like ADD is non existent AS a clinical issue.

If you "suffer" from depression it is, quite simply, because you are depressed, not because you have a brain chemistry issue.

the same with ADD, it is an accurate response to the environment of the organism, not the chemical make-up.


in other words, if you are depressed, than your life depresses you and you should change it. If you have trouble concentrating at work, get a job that interests you.

I am not a dick, I just don't sugar coat.

So many people are ties up into believing this BS because than they don't have to accept responsibility for where they are in their lives.

Obviously when you point this out to someone, they are going to be defensive and disagree, but I assure you, I am telling you the truth.

I see a nation of people that think they are fat because they have some "fat gene" and not because they eat 4000 calories a day and sit on their asses.

A nation of "depressed" people that work meaningless jobs and know it deep down or worse, they have ran into some real heavy ****....

everyone is looking for a magic pill, or an excuse or a way out, but life is hard. You have to wake up and face it or you will be lost.

If you buy into this ****, than you will eventually be actually depressed because you aren't doing anything to deal with the real issue.


end rant.

broncswin
06-18-2009, 01:19 PM
lol....he's ****ING THREE YEARS OLD! I COULDN'T READ OR WRITE LET ALONE BE INTERESTED IN ANY OF THAT BORING **** AT THREE.


LET HIM PLAY FOR CHRISTSAKES!

I am sure you have so much knowledge of this...Please tell me how you know so much about this??

I have been around kids all my life, you can tell a difference between a kid who has a ton of energy and one who might have something more. My wife and I have four kids together and I can assure you I know my kids much better than you!!

broncswin
06-18-2009, 01:22 PM
no, not a scientologist...but they have this one thing right.

Depression, just like ADD is non existent AS a clinical issue.

If you "suffer" from depression it is, quite simply, because you are depressed, not because you have a brain chemistry issue.

the same with ADD, it is an accurate response to the environment of the organism, not the chemical make-up.


in other words, if you are depressed, than your life depresses you and you should change it. If you have trouble concentrating at work, get a job that interests you.

I am not a dick, I just don't sugar coat.

So many people are ties up into believing this BS because than they don't have to accept responsibility for where they are in their lives.

Obviously when you point this out to someone, they are going to be defensive and disagree, but I assure you, I am telling you the truth.

I see a nation of people that think they are fat because they have some "fat gene" and not because they eat 4000 calories a day and sit on their asses.

A nation of "depressed" people that work meaningless jobs and know it deep down or worse, they have ran into some real heavy ****....

everyone is looking for a magic pill, or an excuse or a way out, but life is hard. You have to wake up and face it or you will be lost.
If you buy into this ****, than you will eventually be actually depressed because you aren't doing anything to deal with the real issue.


end rant.


LMOA...I really don't think many on here are claiming this as an excuse, I can assure you that I'm not, oh but thanks for letting us all know how you must face life when it gets toughROFL!

OABB
06-18-2009, 01:25 PM
I am sure you have so much knowledge of this...Please tell me how you know so much about this??

I have been around kids all my life, you can tell a difference between a kid who has a ton of energy and one who might have something more. My wife and I have four kids together and I can assure you I know my kids much better than you!!

I have been involved in special education for over 15 years, and like I said before, I have been working on a documentary for the last four years....

I am sure you know your kids better than I do...however, if your 3 year old has trouble reading and writing, I WOuld wait a few years to worry if something is wrong.

Can he at least do simple division, fractions or geometry?

alkemical
06-18-2009, 01:40 PM
this thread is hysterical.


ADD DOES NOT EXIST! you say it right here!

all cases are self inflicted. just like depression. YOU HAVE CONTROL OF YOUR ATTENTION SPAN, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

jesus christ!


With depression, i disagree. I feel a large % of people reinforce their world view that leads them to be eeyores - but there is a % of people whose body just doesn't work right:

http://depression.about.com/od/causes/a/mutantgene.htm

By saying depression doesn't exist - you'd have to say other mental health issues are self inflicted as well.

Like i said before, the best thing for me was being forced to deal with the day to day. Now, maybe as crraaaaazy as i am - i was able to actually go through with the change, instead of fragmenting the change into a behavioural problem.

OABB
06-18-2009, 01:46 PM
With depression, i disagree. I feel a large % of people reinforce their world view that leads them to be eeyores - but there is a % of people whose body just doesn't work right:

http://depression.about.com/od/causes/a/mutantgene.htm

you really believe that depression is a chemical issue, and not a response to your environment?


Really?

You are one of the smarter guys here...I have trouble believing this.

alkemical
06-18-2009, 01:49 PM
you really believe that depression is a chemical issue, and not a response to your environment?


Really?

You are one of the smarter guys here...I have trouble believing this.

Ya man. A few mental illnesses run in my family. Not all of them are "self inflicted".

Even though i broke out a depressive personality cycle - i still have stretches where i'm depressed for a few weeks... Luckily since i've been able to 'master it/handle it' - it doesn't really effect me much - other than i'm more of a hermit in those stretches. They don't come around long or frequent. But i've woken up 'sad' for a few weeks at a time. When it was at it's worst - it would last for months at a time, with a week or two of manicness)

But to dismiss genetics, surprises me about you. The science is there man.

(Please also note, i said i believe a large % of people who are depressed continue a cyclic depressive behaviour - but there is a % of people whose genes are a hindrance.)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-18-2009, 01:49 PM
youre telling me kids having too much energy is a bad thing? heres an idea: dont let them sit inside and play video games all day so they get built up energy, let them/make them go outside and do **** so they dont turn into fat asses.

If you knew what you were talking about, you might actually be dangerous. You don't, so you aren't.

I was diagnosed with ADD (minus the hyperactivity) in middle school. I do think that some parents put their children on it to settle them down, but that's not the experience I had. As soon as I was diagnosed and medicated, my grades jumped and as I got older I was able to wean myself off the drugs and move on without them.

TSI, you can have an opinion, but talking about something you know nothing about as if you're an expert on the subject is beyond retarded.

2KBack
06-18-2009, 01:50 PM
no, not a scientologist...but they have this one thing right.

Depression, just like ADD is non existent AS a clinical issue.

If you "suffer" from depression it is, quite simply, because you are depressed, not because you have a brain chemistry issue.

the same with ADD, it is an accurate response to the environment of the organism, not the chemical make-up.


in other words, if you are depressed, than your life depresses you and you should change it. If you have trouble concentrating at work, get a job that interests you.

I am not a dick, I just don't sugar coat.

So many people are ties up into believing this BS because than they don't have to accept responsibility for where they are in their lives.

Obviously when you point this out to someone, they are going to be defensive and disagree, but I assure you, I am telling you the truth.

I see a nation of people that think they are fat because they have some "fat gene" and not because they eat 4000 calories a day and sit on their asses.

A nation of "depressed" people that work meaningless jobs and know it deep down or worse, they have ran into some real heavy ****....

everyone is looking for a magic pill, or an excuse or a way out, but life is hard. You have to wake up and face it or you will be lost.

If you buy into this ****, than you will eventually be actually depressed because you aren't doing anything to deal with the real issue.


end rant.

I'm afraid you are a dick. There is a difference between explaining what you believe to be the truth and belittling or dismissing the very real problems of others.

I learned long ago to never trust anyone who knows "the truth." Whether that be pharmautical companies, or the nutjob on the internet that knows better than everyone else.

How difficult would it have been to simply state that you question the clinical validity of emotional disorders? You could then state like a mature adult that you suggest that individuals observe their lifestyle and that many people may find that their own choices have lead to the issues that they are having.

That's not sugar coating, it's called having an intelligent discussion.

alkemical
06-18-2009, 01:53 PM
I'm afraid you are a dick. There is a difference between explaining what you believe to be the truth and belittling or dismissing the very real problems of others.

I learned long ago to never trust anyone who knows "the truth." Whether that be pharmautical companies, or the nutjob on the internet that knows better than everyone else.

How difficult would it have been to simply state that you question the clinical validity of emotional disorders? You could then state like a mature adult that you suggest that individuals observe their lifestyle and that many people may find that their own choices have lead to the issues that they are having.

That's not sugar coating, it's called having an intelligent discussion.



My position on ADD is that really it's about reinforcing certain neural patterns in the brain at a younger age. TV/Internet seem to really have a large impact on this. I think there is a % of kids who do have a 'condition', but i also feel it's overstated.

it also coincides with my 'belief' that the education system in this country isn't helping - and we need to change how things are done in that arena.

2KBack
06-18-2009, 02:03 PM
My position on ADD is that really it's about reinforcing certain neural patterns in the brain at a younger age. TV/Internet seem to really have a large impact on this. I think there is a % of kids who do have a 'condition', but i also feel it's overstated.

it also coincides with my 'belief' that the education system in this country isn't helping - and we need to change how things are done in that arena.

I don't disagree with that at all. A lot of health issues can be brought on by ones environment or behavioral patterns. That is certainly not something I take issue with. I do take issue with people dismissing the disorder on account of the over diagnosis and drug abuse.

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:03 PM
Ya man. A few mental illnesses run in my family. Not all of them are "self inflicted".

Even though i broke out a depressive personality cycle - i still have stretches where i'm depressed for a few weeks... Luckily since i've been able to 'master it/handle it' - it doesn't really effect me much - other than i'm more of a hermit in those stretches. They don't come around long or frequent. But i've woken up 'sad' for a few weeks at a time. When it was at it's worst - it would last for months at a time, with a week or two of manicness)

But to dismiss genetics, surprises me about you. The science is there man.

(Please also note, i said i believe a large % of people who are depressed continue a cyclic depressive behaviour - but there is a % of people whose genes are a hindrance.)


genetics and neuroscience are far behind where most people say they are...first off, If depressed people show different reactions to certain chemicals or dopamine levels, what's not to say that by being depressed, you can affect the levels yourself?

for example, fat people have higher cholesterol usually. That's like saying people with higher cholesterol are more inclined to be fat.

Seriously think about it.

The "science" just doesn't impress me.

And,you actually make my point by saying you found ways to "master" your depression.

If it was a chemical issue, only chemical fixes would work. You couldn't lesson the effects of cancer by "dealing" with it. You'll have to do chemo or surgery.

The fact that your bouts have lessoned only means you have dealt with an emotional issue emotionally and that is the only way to treat it. you can't deal with a chemical, or physical illness emotionally....


am I making sense?

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:05 PM
I don't disagree with that at all. A lot of health issues can be brought on by ones environment or behavioral patterns. That is certainly not something I take issue with. I do take issue with people dismissing the disorder on account of the over diagnosis and drug abuse.

really, than why are you arguing with me? this is all I have said..

I never dismissed it because of drugs, I dismissed it as a nuerological or chemical disorder.

2KBack
06-18-2009, 02:11 PM
really, than why are you arguing with me? this is all I have said..

I never dismissed it because of drugs, I dismissed it as a nuerological or chemical disorder.

Because you are taking zero sum stance on it. There is always grey area. Simply because someone may be helped by a change in behavior, outlook, or environment; that does not mean that there are not some with clinical neurological conditions.

You aren't convinced by the evidence that ADD is a clinical disorder, that's fine, but I am not convinced by the evidence that it is not.

alkemical
06-18-2009, 02:17 PM
genetics and neuroscience are far behind where most people say they are...first off, If depressed people show different reactions to certain chemicals or dopamine levels, what's not to say that by being depressed, you can affect the levels yourself?

for example, fat people have higher cholesterol usually. That's like saying people with higher cholesterol are more inclined to be fat.

Seriously think about it.

The "science" just doesn't impress me.

And,you actually make my point by saying you found ways to "master" your depression.

If it was a chemical issue, only chemical fixes would work. You couldn't lesson the effects of cancer by "dealing" with it. You'll have to do chemo or surgery.

The fact that your bouts have lessoned only means you have dealt with an emotional issue emotionally and that is the only way to treat it. you can't deal with a chemical, or physical illness emotionally....


am I making sense?

You are, but you still proved my point. Maybe not everyone can "do what i do". If i'm still getting bouts of depression that last or linger for weeks - i can deal with them - but maybe everyone can't. Those people possibly need medicated.

The genetic research proves otherwise, if you'd have clicked on the link you'd see how they cite how there is a % of people whose seratonin levels are just out of whack and don't work. Not to mention the case studies involving people whose parents were 'clinically' proven, have a greater risk. Now, some of that is learned behaviour - but not all of it is.

To dismiss the science behind it, makes your argument less valid by saying ALL people who are depressed are their own causes. It's not that simple, and it's not the truth.

Trust me man. Just because i can deal with it, doesn't make it "easy". I mean a few weeks ago i felt low enough that i just wanted to wake up as someone else.

But i'll deal with the mood swings, IMO - it helps my 'art'. I understand myself, and i know what to do.

But it took the better part of almost 15 years for me to find the 'stone' that enabled me to break though.

After doing so, i know what's coming - and when. I just have 'routines' i do to help.

My dad's side of the family has a nice mix of illnesses. Since my dad died when i was 7, the learned behaviour argument is more 'moot' - since he wasn't really around since i was 5 to 'learn' the behaviours.

But it took extensive work with meditations, self medication(s), trial and error and some really bad times.

Really, the whole reason i never offed myself - is my 'belief' in reincarnation/karma - i didn't want to do this **** "again".

coupled with the fact that you actually make your decisions before you think you do (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision), the 'i robot (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=64803)' essay i posted coincides nicely with how much genetics do play a part in our day to day lives.

Spider
06-18-2009, 02:25 PM
you really believe that depression is a chemical issue, and not a response to your environment?


Really?

You are one of the smarter guys here...I have trouble believing this.
I dont know for sure about this , even after I got away from the violent environment I was in , I still have strong violent urges , I am able to control them better now , I was told there is a chemical imbalance problem , then I was told violence is a learned behavior I have ot unlearn ......
either way I have learned to control it for the most part

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:35 PM
You are, but you still proved my point. Maybe not everyone can "do what i do". If i'm still getting bouts of depression that last or linger for weeks - i can deal with them - but maybe everyone can't. Those people possibly need medicated.

The genetic research proves otherwise, if you'd have clicked on the link you'd see how they cite how there is a % of people whose seratonin levels are just out of whack and don't work. Not to mention the case studies involving people whose parents were 'clinically' proven, have a greater risk. Now, some of that is learned behaviour - but not all of it is.

To dismiss the science behind it, makes your argument less valid by saying ALL people who are depressed are their own causes. It's not that simple, and it's not the truth.

Trust me man. Just because i can deal with it, doesn't make it "easy". I mean a few weeks ago i felt low enough that i just wanted to wake up as someone else.

But i'll deal with the mood swings, IMO - it helps my 'art'. I understand myself, and i know what to do.

But it took the better part of almost 15 years for me to find the 'stone' that enabled me to break though.

After doing so, i know what's coming - and when. I just have 'routines' i do to help.

My dad's side of the family has a nice mix of illnesses. Since my dad died when i was 7, the learned behaviour argument is more 'moot' - since he wasn't really around since i was 5 to 'learn' the behaviours.

But it took extensive work with meditations, self medication(s), trial and error and some really bad times.

Really, the whole reason i never offed myself - is my 'belief' in reincarnation/karma - i didn't want to do this **** "again".

coupled with the fact that you actually make your descisions before you think you do, the 'i robot' essay i posted coincides nicely with how much genetics do play a part in our day to day lives.

I did read your link, and I have been following the seratonin theory back to thorazine research in the 50's... "out of whack" is not a scientific statement.

It's this theory that seratonin was linked to depression that started the SSRI version of anti-depressants (Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitors). What research is finding now, is that these meds change your seratonin levels, and actually cause depression, suicidal tendencies, and even permanent brain damage.

Just saying Seretonin levels are different in some people REALLY means nothing. The science is theory, and even the APA(American Psychiatrict Association) admitted that there still isn't a known biological way to test depression.

You are confusing me. You claim that you have a chemical issue right?

but than you mention you lost your father when you were 7. I am not a psychiatrist, but do you think maybe, in your case, it is environmental?

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:37 PM
I dont know for sure about this , even after I got away from the violent environment I was in , I still have strong violent urges , I am able to control them better now , I was told there is a chemical imbalance problem , then I was told violence is a learned behavior I have ot unlearn ......
either way I have learned to control it for the most part

What do you think? Really? Not trying to be a dick, but think for a second.....Do you REALLY believe it is chemical?

Spider
06-18-2009, 02:47 PM
What do you think? Really? Not trying to be a dick, but think for a second.....Do you REALLY believe it is chemical?

I dont know , I really dont ...... But am seeing the pattern in my kids also , I want it stopped , I dont want them to live the life I lived .......

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 02:50 PM
different how, specifically? you do understand that brain scans are just guesses and no one at this time has a map of any kind as to what they mean.


you do realize it's still just a theory right?

I need more than that if i am going to take mood altering or brain chemistry altering drugs.

Just guesses? You should put down Dr. Hoffmans guide to leeches and pick up a copy of the Lancet or NEJM and look into brain MRI.

Gravity is a theory, but I bet you still rely on it when you throw a football, electrons are just a theory but I bet that doesn't worry you when you flick the light switch.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 02:54 PM
Just guesses? You should put down Dr. Hoffmans guide to leeches and pick up a copy of the Lancet or NEJM and look into brain MRI.

Gravity is a theory, but I bet you still rely on it when you throw a football, electrons are just a theory but I bet that doesn't worry you when you flick the light switch.

Hush science will not be accepted here as evidence. Planes don't fly its a scam to make everyone watch Top Gun and think Homoerotic Beach Volleyball scenes are cool.

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:56 PM
Just guesses? You should put down Dr. Hoffmans guide to leeches and pick up a copy of the Lancet or NEJM and look into brain MRI.

Gravity is a theory, but I bet you still rely on it when you throw a football, electrons are just a theory but I bet that doesn't worry you when you flick the light switch.

Gravity exists as does depression. I never said they didn't. I am talking about the theory of what causes depression.

Using your gravity example...

what people are saying is , "gravity is caused by my t-cell count."

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 02:58 PM
genetics and neuroscience are far behind where most people say they are...first off, If depressed people show different reactions to certain chemicals or dopamine levels, what's not to say that by being depressed, you can affect the levels yourself?

for example, fat people have higher cholesterol usually. That's like saying people with higher cholesterol are more inclined to be fat.

Seriously think about it.

The "science" just doesn't impress me.

And,you actually make my point by saying you found ways to "master" your depression.

If it was a chemical issue, only chemical fixes would work. You couldn't lesson the effects of cancer by "dealing" with it. You'll have to do chemo or surgery.

The fact that your bouts have lessoned only means you have dealt with an emotional issue emotionally and that is the only way to treat it. you can't deal with a chemical, or physical illness emotionally....


am I making sense?


How are genetics behind where people say they are?

The body is made up of chemistry, there are many ways the body can self regulate chemistry, you can help by changing your sleeping patterns, activity levels, diet, liquid intake, salt balance, hormone levels, neural activity and many other things.

So you are saying that every case of placebo effects in history having a measurable effect is due to magic? You can have a very strong effect on a physical illness without chemicals.

It doesn't really matter if dopamine response is a result of having depression or if depression is caused by dopamine response, what matters is that if you have an abnormal dopamine response you also have depression, so if you measure one, you will know the other.

The same is true for your fat, cholesterol analogy. If someone else draws blood from patients, I can give a pretty good prediction of their obesity by measuring the cholesterol, without ever having seen the people.

OABB
06-18-2009, 02:59 PM
Hush science will not be accepted here as evidence. Planes don't fly its a scam to make everyone watch Top Gun and think Homoerotic Beach Volleyball scenes are cool.

explain to me the hard science here, Apa... please. The APA(fitting name) hasn't been able to, no pharmecutical companies have been able to, no Nuerologist has been able to, but your cute little jokes make all the difference.

please. Instead of acting like a scorned lover here, do some homework. I'll wait.

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:05 PM
How are genetics behind where people say they are?

The body is made up of chemistry, there are many ways the body can self regulate chemistry, you can help by changing your sleeping patterns, activity levels, diet, liquid intake, salt balance, hormone levels, neural activity and many other things.

So you are saying that every case of placebo effects in history having a measurable effect is due to magic? You can have a very strong effect on a physical illness without chemicals.

It doesn't really matter if dopamine response is a result of having depression or if depression is caused by dopamine response, what matters is that if you have an abnormal dopamine response you also have depression, so if you measure one, you will know the other.

The same is true for your fat, cholesterol analogy. If someone else draws blood from patients, I can give a pretty good prediction of their obesity by measuring the cholesterol, without ever having seen the people.


Measuring a link is VERY VERY different than prescribing chemically altering medicatioins based of this "link" without understanding it further.

What if I gave you a cholesterol blocking drug that made your blood pressure spike and gave you a heart attack?

would you still argue that there is a link between cholesterol and fatness and just claim that the drug isn't effective in all people, or that it just needs more research, or that there are other drugs you can take to lower your blood pressure that you'll have to take along side it?

because that is EXACTLY what is happening here...


OR would you stop eating like a hog and go for a jog?

what would you tell your fat kid to do?

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:12 PM
I dont know , I really dont ...... But am seeing the pattern in my kids also , I want it stopped , I dont want them to live the life I lived .......

With all due respect, you can't stop a pattern in your kid unless you correct the pattern in yourself. We are modeled after our parents. That's the way it works. Kids respond to what they see, not what they hear.

My dad used to punch everything in the house when he got mad. He never hit us, but there were holes everywhere.

is it a gene that makes me punch inanimate objects when I am mad? nope.

That's how I learned.

I have never hit anyone in anger, but I have patched many a drywall.

Your kids will be just like you, no matter what you tell them.

If you want your kids not to be violent, you should stop throat punching people.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the cold hard facts.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 03:13 PM
people, people, lets simmer down.
For those talking about serotonin, do your research. There is no definitive evidence or markers indicating serotonin levels linked to depression. Don't freak out. It's true. Clinical studies were done that elevated serotonin levels and depressed subjects did not respond, as well they depleted levels of non depressed subjects and they did not become depressed.

Also to be "diagnosed" for a brain disorder you need a brain "doctor". That would be a neurologist. And to test your serotonin levels would require a spinal tap. Now all those depressed individuals out there did you go through that?

would you accept the diagnosis of cancer if you had a cough? Or would you ask for some tests first?

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:16 PM
people, people, lets simmer down.
For those talking about serotonin, do your research. There is no definitive evidence or markers indicating serotonin levels linked to depression. Don't freak out. It's true. Clinical studies were done that elevated serotonin levels and depressed subjects did not respond, as well they depleted levels of non depressed subjects and they did not become depressed.

Also to be "diagnosed" for a brain disorder you need a brain "doctor". That would be a neurologist. And to test your serotonin levels would require a spinal tap. Now all those depressed individuals out there did you go through that?

would you accept the diagnosis of cancer if you had a cough? Or would you ask for some tests first?


I wish I was smarter....for those who don't understand my rambling, read this post.


Sakuraba, thank you for this.

Spider
06-18-2009, 03:16 PM
With all due respect, you can't stop a pattern in your kid unless you correct the pattern in yourself. We are modeled after our parents. That's the way it works. Kids respond to what they see, not what they hear.

My dad used to punch everything in the house when he got mad. He never hit us, but there were holes everywhere.

is it a gene that makes me punch inanimate objects when I am mad? nope.

That's how I learned.

I have never hit anyone in anger, but I have patched many a drywall.

Your kids will be just like you, no matter what you tell them.

If you want your kids not to be violent, you should stop throat punching people.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the cold hard facts.

My Kids have only seen me in 1 fight , that was with some guy who came after me with a knife , I dont punch things in the house , i dont hit them , try not to fight with the wife in front of them ......

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 03:16 PM
Gravity exists as does depression. I never said they didn't. I am talking about the theory of what causes depression.

Using your gravity example...

what people are saying is , "gravity is caused by my t-cell count."

It doesn't matter what causes depression, the same way it doesn't matter what causes gravity. We are in fact a lot closer to understanding the basis of depression than we are to understanding gravity.

If abnormal dopamine levels or damaged dopamine receptors or upregulated glutamate to certain centers are correlated with depression, it doesn't matter if they cause the disease or not, but it makes diagnosis and treatment better as it provides ways to determine what treatment will help and how the disease will progress and manifest itself.

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:17 PM
My Kids have only seen me in 1 fight , that was with some guy who came after me with a knife , I dont punch things in the house , i dont hit them , try not to fight with the wife in front of them ......

They do know about your other fights don't they? They have to know, right?

Spider
06-18-2009, 03:20 PM
They do know about your other fights don't they? They have to know, right?

Nope , I tell them nothing ..... when they get older , then I will tell them if they ask ....

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 03:20 PM
Measuring a link is VERY VERY different than prescribing chemically altering medicatioins based of this "link" without understanding it further.

What if I gave you a cholesterol blocking drug that made your blood pressure spike and gave you a heart attack?

would you still argue that there is a link between cholesterol and fatness and just claim that the drug isn't effective in all people, or that it just needs more research, or that there are other drugs you can take to lower your blood pressure that you'll have to take along side it?

because that is EXACTLY what is happening here...


OR would you stop eating like a hog and go for a jog?

what would you tell your fat kid to do?

That is easy, if the high cholesterol has a bigger chance of killing the patient than the treatment, then I would give the treatment.

It is just like cancer treatment, there is no safe cancer treatment (observation being the closest), but we treat people anyway. An untreated cancer gives a patient a certain life expectancy, if that life expectancy can be improved with treatment, even if the treatment may kill the patient, it is a good treatment.

If you can't be functional without mood altering drugs, then give drugs providing that they give a net gain in function and quality of life.

It doesn't matter much why people have cancer when they come in (simplification I know), what matters is that we may be able to treat them and give them a better quality of life and a longer life expectancy.

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:22 PM
It doesn't matter what causes depression, the same way it doesn't matter what causes gravity. We are in fact a lot closer to understanding the basis of depression than we are to understanding gravity.

If abnormal dopamine levels or damaged dopamine receptors or upregulated glutamate to certain centers are correlated with depression, it doesn't matter if they cause the disease or not, but it makes diagnosis and treatment better as it provides ways to determine what treatment will help and how the disease will progress and manifest itself.

from a scientific standpoint maybe it doesn't matter...

But if you care about people, the causes are VERY important.

And so are the treatments. I don't like seeing fellow people depressed. I really don't like seeing them justify it and back up some science so that they don't have to deal with the cold hard reality that there life sucks.

Again, science and meds aside,

IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED IT'S CAUSE YOU LIFE IS DEPRESSING, AND IF YOU HAVE "ADD" IT'S CAUSE YOU ARE BORED!

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 03:29 PM
[

If abnormal dopamine levels or damaged dopamine receptors or upregulated glutamate to certain centers are correlated with depression, it doesn't matter if they cause the disease or not, but it makes diagnosis and treatment better as it provides ways to determine what treatment will help and how the disease will progress and manifest itself.[/QUOTE]


There is no unequivocal proof or evidence or studies for that matter proving abnormal levels of dopamine, serotonin, etc, to cause depression. There is NO causal evidence. That is a fact. The APA even says this in their literature. No genetic markers indicating cause.

Also why do people think it is a "disorder" anyway? Why the invested interest in having it be a "disease". Why the need for this. No one seems to consider "happy" people to have a disorder. What about the chronically happy? Or the clinically relaxed? Who speaks for them?

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 03:32 PM
That is easy, if the high cholesterol has a bigger chance of killing the patient than the treatment, then I would give the treatment.

It is just like cancer treatment, there is no safe cancer treatment (observation being the closest), but we treat people anyway. An untreated cancer gives a patient a certain life expectancy, if that life expectancy can be improved with treatment, even if the treatment may kill the patient, it is a good treatment.

If you can't be functional without mood altering drugs, then give drugs providing that they give a net gain in function and quality of life.

It doesn't matter much why people have cancer when they come in (simplification I know), what matters is that we may be able to treat them and give them a better quality of life and a longer life expectancy.

The problem with psychiatric drugs is that what they are attempting to "deal" with is the symptom, not the cause. Your cancer analogy doesn't serve you well here. Cancer treatment addresses the cancer, the cause, not the symptom.

OABB
06-18-2009, 03:32 PM
That is easy, if the high cholesterol has a bigger chance of killing the patient than the treatment, then I would give the treatment.

It is just like cancer treatment, there is no safe cancer treatment (observation being the closest), but we treat people anyway. An untreated cancer gives a patient a certain life expectancy, if that life expectancy can be improved with treatment, even if the treatment may kill the patient, it is a good treatment.

If you can't be functional without mood altering drugs, then give drugs providing that they give a net gain in function and quality of life.

It doesn't matter much why people have cancer when they come in (simplification I know), what matters is that we may be able to treat them and give them a better quality of life and a longer life expectancy.


Am I speaking Chinese?

there is no evidence that these treatments for depression work. And no, zombified patients saying they feel nothing, but that that nothing is better than realizing that their life sucks doesn't count.

BUT, there is evidence that these drugs don't work, at all.

Has anyone noticed that these commercials for cymbalta and other anti-depressants have started to say that kids under 18 should not take them.

That was not some willy-nilly statement. That was based off of a huge court case in Europe which the Pharmecutical companies lost. They are required to say this now...


and do you know why?

Because it was proven that The SSRI in adults under 18 caused, I repeat, caused suicidal thought. Look it up. It's true.

So, this fancy science and treatment that everyone is talking about actually makes you kill yourself.

that tells me that it does not work.

and let''s not even get into the links with school shootings and what not, cause this could really spiral off.


All I know is, the science is not backed up, and it's time for the mighty Occum to bring down his hefty razor here.....

IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED IT IS BECAUSE YOUR LIFE SUCKS! END. OF. STORY.


Do I have to pull a broncofan7 here and end this, cause I will!

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 04:27 PM
explain to me the hard science here, Apa... please. The APA(fitting name) hasn't been able to, no pharmecutical companies have been able to, no Nuerologist has been able to, but your cute little jokes make all the difference.

please. Instead of acting like a scorned lover here, do some homework. I'll wait.

I believe Gyldenlove did a good enough job. Because you don't believe it nothing will satisfy you. You are ignorant intollerant to other viewpoints, which makes you pathetic. When your only argument is medication and I have told you I am against medication yet you continue to rant that tells me enough.

So I tell you what. I will make fun of you and make cute little jokes because its the best way to deal intollerant and ignorant knuckleheads.

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 04:42 PM
The problem with psychiatric drugs is that what they are attempting to "deal" with is the symptom, not the cause. Your cancer analogy doesn't serve you well here. Cancer treatment addresses the cancer, the cause, not the symptom.

My cancer analogy serves me plenty fine here, in many forms of cancer more than half the treatment given is paliative, which is strictly to improve quality of life and reduce symptoms.

You are not trying to "cure" depression, you are trying to improve quality of life and overall patient function.

That is how many diseases are treated, that is how most if not all cardiovascular diseases are treated, that is how HIV is treated, it is how most non-viral diseases are dealt with, take care of the symptons and the body will either fix itself or the patient will live on as well as possible.

Hulamau
06-18-2009, 04:43 PM
really, than why are you arguing with me? this is all I have said..

I never dismissed it because of drugs, I dismissed it as a nuerological or chemical disorder.

Behavioral and environmental experiences and influences directly influence brain chemistry and vice versa. It's the symphony of life. You use the term 'neurological' and 'biochemical' as if they are somehow divorced from life experience and indicate something out of control and or alien to one's personal make up when they are all part and parcel of what makes you how you are.

You may think 'you' are in totally in control of your life at every moment but its an vanishingly short term illusion. And if we did a little experiment ( and unethical one to be sure) and drained your functional dopamine level for example in the right area of the brain, we could very definitely turn you into a Parkinsons patient in short order with far less control over your body and mind than you ever imagined.

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 04:48 PM
Am I speaking Chinese?

there is no evidence that these treatments for depression work. And no, zombified patients saying they feel nothing, but that that nothing is better than realizing that their life sucks doesn't count.

BUT, there is evidence that these drugs don't work, at all.

Has anyone noticed that these commercials for cymbalta and other anti-depressants have started to say that kids under 18 should not take them.

That was not some willy-nilly statement. That was based off of a huge court case in Europe which the Pharmecutical companies lost. They are required to say this now...


and do you know why?

Because it was proven that The SSRI in adults under 18 caused, I repeat, caused suicidal thought. Look it up. It's true.

So, this fancy science and treatment that everyone is talking about actually makes you kill yourself.

that tells me that it does not work.

and let''s not even get into the links with school shootings and what not, cause this could really spiral off.


All I know is, the science is not backed up, and it's time for the mighty Occum to bring down his hefty razor here.....

IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED IT IS BECAUSE YOUR LIFE SUCKS! END. OF. STORY.


Do I have to pull a broncofan7 here and end this, cause I will!

You are going to want to check this out:

Zoloft to prevent depression (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/2/217)

Took me less than 60 seconds to find a clinical trial with strong statistical significance showing that taking zoloft is better than taking a placebo in preventing patients from suffering depressive episodes or relapsing into depression.

There are bigger and better studies, but saying there is no evidence to support the effect of anti-depressents is a blatant lie.

Hulamau
06-18-2009, 04:57 PM
I did read your link, and I have been following the seratonin theory back to thorazine research in the 50's... "out of whack" is not a scientific statement.

It's this theory that seratonin was linked to depression that started the SSRI version of anti-depressants (Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitors). What research is finding now, is that these meds change your seratonin levels, and actually cause depression, suicidal tendencies, and even permanent brain damage.

Just saying Seretonin levels are different in some people REALLY means nothing. The science is theory, and even the APA(American Psychiatrict Association) admitted that there still isn't a known biological way to test depression.

You are confusing me. You claim that you have a chemical issue right?

but than you mention you lost your father when you were 7. I am not a psychiatrist, but do you think maybe, in your case, it is environmental?

A (very) little pop science knowledge is a very dangerous thing. The SSRIs are a flawed attempt at manipulating serotonin and dopamine levels based on the now outdated Monoamine theory that had a few good points but was always full of holes and didn't match up well to clinical experience.

However simply extrapolating and the failure of a 45 years old theory to FULLY and Adequately explain all the ins and outs and nuances of neurotransmitter chemistry by NO MEANS invalidates the reality of the influence and impact of neurotransmitters on perception, cognition and the very experience of being alive.

Your stuck in 'Compartmental Label land' where environmental action and experiences supposedly have no influence on brain chemistry and vice versa. In reality they both modulate each other continuously every single moment of your life.

Try not looking at them as separate issues and trying to blame or exonerate one of the other, but realize both aspects make up the complexity of human life.

mr007
06-18-2009, 05:00 PM
IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED IT'S CAUSE YOU LIFE IS DEPRESSING, AND IF YOU HAVE "ADD" IT'S CAUSE YOU ARE BORED!

Thank god we have someone who knows everything on this board and can answer all questions with a perspective of absolute truth.

You cannot possibly have an answer of what causes depression or ADD because the truth is there is no concrete evidence on the subject. In fact, the whole realm of "known" for human beings is like a single drop of water on the entire Earth.

There are 3 realms of knowledge, that which we know, that which we don't know, and that which we don't know that we don't know. The truth is, the vast majority or knowledge resides in the 3rd realm of the completely undiscovered.

You simply cannot make a concrete statement on a subject that so little is truly known about based on the evidence currently available.

mr007
06-18-2009, 05:01 PM
A (very) little pop science knowledge is a very dangerous thing. The SSRIs are a flawed attempt at manipulating serotonin and dopamine levels based on the now outdated Monoamine theory that had a few good points but was always full of holes and didn't match up well to clinical experience.

However simply extrapolating and the failure of a 45 years old theory to FULLY and Adequately explain all the ins and outs and nuances of neurotransmitter chemistry by NO MEANS invalidates the reality of the influence and impact of neurotransmitters on perception, cognition and the very experience of being alive.

Your stuck in 'Compartmental Label land' where environmental action and experiences supposedly have no influence on brain chemistry and vice versa. In reality they both modulate each other continuously every single moment of your life.

Try not looking at them as separate issues and trying to blame or exonerate one of the other, but realize both aspects make up the complexity of human life.

Ahhh, said so much better than me. :thanku:

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 05:06 PM
You know what I want from OrangeScientologist? I want him to provide this discussion with definitive proof that this is all a farce. He is so sure that he pretty much is being a condescending ass to those who believe the opposite. So he surely has scientific proof that is so thorough that we can't argue against him.

I can't wait to see what he provides. I mean I had a headache today and am freaking out because a headache is inside the brain and therefor neurological and a figment of my imagination according to orangeandblueass. So I am freaking out right now ready to sue Tylenol for making me have this feeling in my head that is clearly made up.

Hulamau
06-18-2009, 05:24 PM
I wish I was smarter....for those who don't understand my rambling, read this post.


Sakuraba, thank you for this.

Very superficial and misleading post by Sakuraba, it's not AT ALL about achieving some assumed "normal average" level of serotonin or dopamine and then all is right with the world. First of all any given level of serotonin AND dopamine ( they both work in concert and must be looked at as one master neurotransmitter) totally undermines the concepts derived from testing 'levels' of one without the other.

Working with and understanding Neuro-transmission is highly NON-Intuitive, and simpleton studies that say when serotonin levels were raised X amount in X number of patients this or that happens are flawed from the outset! It doesn't work that way!

Those concepts are long out dated. There are some people with much too low levels of S & D (and the other catecholamines) that often correlate with functional disorders or symptom groups. BUt FAR FAR more common are people whose levels maybe oke within the broad so-called 'normal range', but who still have all sorts of issues related to neurotransmitter insufficiency ( notice I said Insufficiency NOT just a Deficit!).

The current Bundle Damage Theory that FAR better correlates with actual clinical experience than the Monoamine theory ever did, and which exposes the inherent flaws of SSRI drugs, postulates that damage to the receptors in various neuronal bundles from many causes ... Genetics , toxic exposure to drugs, chemicals too ,much drinking, viral illnesses, structurally damage and simply the stress, wear and tear of life, require far greater FUNCTIONAL levels of S & D for many people that are FAR above the limited 'normal' ranges, in order to restore functional recovery through these damaged neuron bundles. The required FUNCTIONAL levels for each given person can vary over a HUGE range.

Spinal taps are for direct measurement of NT, but excretion of urinary S & D has been shown to correlate with S & D and Norepinehrine and epi levels in the brain, but only AFTER loading with amino acid precursors.
Urinary testings of NTs is meaningless before loading.

http://www.neuroassist.com/Serotonin_Dopamine%20manu%20FINAL%20Nov%2030.pdf

The narrow scope and far too simple and misinformed nature of these older tests you refer too are much too confined and poorly structured in their design to see the forest for the trees.

And let me say again, any studies on Serotonin and Dopamine LEVELS using SSRI drugs are looking down the wrong end of the gun and are NOT describing the effect of NT repletion and adding greater NT levels in the brain, which these drugs simply DO NOT DO! Rather they simply fool the brain in to thinking it has more S & D than it really does for a while and yet also causing longer term DEPLETION of those same S & D stores. In a Catch 22.

But don't make the mistake that just because the SSRI drugs are flawed that this means neurotransmitters have no baring on depression symptoms and may other neurotransmitter' related' issues. That would be a highly faulty and thoroughly ignorant assumption!

Its late in Holland and going to bed. Good night!

OABB
06-18-2009, 05:39 PM
You are going to want to check this out:

Zoloft to prevent depression (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/2/217)

Took me less than 60 seconds to find a clinical trial with strong statistical significance showing that taking zoloft is better than taking a placebo in preventing patients from suffering depressive episodes or relapsing into depression.

There are bigger and better studies, but saying there is no evidence to support the effect of anti-depressents is a blatant lie.

Can you find me one not financed by Pfizer? You know, the pharmecutical company that makes billions by stating this.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 05:39 PM
You are going to want to check this out:

Zoloft to prevent depression (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/2/217)

Took me less than 60 seconds to find a clinical trial with strong statistical significance showing that taking zoloft is better than taking a placebo in preventing patients from suffering depressive episodes or relapsing into depression.

There are bigger and better studies, but saying there is no evidence to support the effect of anti-depressents is a blatant lie.


Interesting that it was financed by Pfizer - the people who make it. Fancy that. Well they certainly have no interest in making money off that drug.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 05:40 PM
Can you find me one not financed by Pfizer? You know, the pharmecutical company that makes billions by stating this.


Well, someone seems to have some logic here. Well done.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 05:42 PM
Well, someone seems to have some logic here. Well done.

:spit:

I agree a study by a company with a vested interest is not the best evidence but this guy is far from logical. Thanks for the laugh though.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 05:46 PM
:spit:

I agree a study by a company with a vested interest is not the best evidence but this guy is far from logical. Thanks for the laugh though.

Asking for evidence from a study not funded by the maker of the drug is logical. If you can't understand that, well then you truly are cerebrally challenged.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 05:47 PM
ApaOps5, for someone who has a hard time staying attentive you seem to be able to keep up with this thread pretty well.

OABB
06-18-2009, 05:47 PM
A (very) little pop science knowledge is a very dangerous thing. The SSRIs are a flawed attempt at manipulating serotonin and dopamine levels based on the now outdated Monoamine theory that had a few good points but was always full of holes and didn't match up well to clinical experience.

However simply extrapolating and the failure of a 45 years old theory to FULLY and Adequately explain all the ins and outs and nuances of neurotransmitter chemistry by NO MEANS invalidates the reality of the influence and impact of neurotransmitters on perception, cognition and the very experience of being alive.

Your stuck in 'Compartmental Label land' where environmental action and experiences supposedly have no influence on brain chemistry and vice versa. In reality they both modulate each other continuously every single moment of your life.

Try not looking at them as separate issues and trying to blame or exonerate one of the other, but realize both aspects make up the complexity of human life.

um....again. there is no proof that brain chemistry CAUSES depression....I emphasize the word causes, because people are getting confused.

I stated, and I'll do it again, that THERE IS NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT BRAIN CHEMISTRY CAUSES DEPRESSION OR ADD....


NONE.







ZIPPO.







NADA.








ZILCH.











0.











NONE.









So, we can talk and talk about a lot of things and even stroke poor Apa butthurt, but this will not change.

I guess I am the illogical one here...

I think depression is caused by being in a depressing life, and everyone else thinks it's some magical gene that makes them feel this way.



hmmm.


who is defying logic here?





I hate my job, I'm fat, I can't get laid and I'm going bald.....I must have low seratonin levels cause i feel like a loser.....

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 05:50 PM
ApaOps5, for someone who has a hard time staying attentive you seem to be able to keep up with this thread pretty well.

Yep I like making fun of ignorant folk and have practiced focusing for years now so I appreciate the compliment as someone with ADHD to be told they are being attentive is great.

OrangeandBlue provide the scientific proof that there is no association btw neurology and depression or other mental illness. Come on you are just as butt hurt that we are laughing at you. I mean we can wait until you go hook up to that machine L Ron Hubbard invented to get the aliens out of you.

OABB
06-18-2009, 05:54 PM
You know what I want from OrangeScientologist? I want him to provide this discussion with definitive proof that this is all a farce. He is so sure that he pretty much is being a condescending ass to those who believe the opposite. So he surely has scientific proof that is so thorough that we can't argue against him.

I can't wait to see what he provides. I mean I had a headache today and am freaking out because a headache is inside the brain and therefor neurological and a figment of my imagination according to orangeandblueass. So I am freaking out right now ready to sue Tylenol for making me have this feeling in my head that is clearly made up.

Don't freak out....Tylenol will actually help your headache. It's proven. In a lab. and one not financed by Tylenol....


and I am not being a condescending ass...

You have had a nerve touched meethinks.




"thou doth protest too much"


perhaps you don't have ADD?


Perhaps you aren't special with some exotic brain malady?

Perhaps you are just average, and your average little life is not to your liking?

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 05:59 PM
HA my life is far from average I chose a job that has lots of excitement and stimuli as I know sitting at a desk crunching numbers like an accountant would just destroy me. Alas though my job gets more managerial as I get experience so I find myself in meetings more than I like but I get to go drive out right next to 777's taking off and that cures things.

Anyways, back on topic. The way science works is when you have a hypothesis you find data to both prove and disprove it. You seem to only rely on some magical data you have yet to show that disproves my hypothesis. Yet you are eerily quiet when asked to provide data that DEFINITIVELY proves yours.

No nerve struck with me I just like laughing at you.

barryr
06-18-2009, 05:59 PM
How much do genetics and the kinds of foods eaten contribute to ADD or depression? Seems like there is something there, though I don't know of any studies or results about them.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:00 PM
Very superficial and misleading post by Sakuraba, it's not AT ALL about achieving some assumed "normal average" level of serotonin or dopamine and then all is right with the world. First of all any given level of serotonin AND dopamine ( they both work in concert and must be looked at as one master neurotransmitter) totally undermines the concepts derived from testing 'levels' of one without the other.

Working with and understanding Neuro-transmission is highly NON-Intuitive, and simpleton studies that say when serotonin levels were raised X amount in X number of patients this or that happens are flawed from the outset! It doesn't work that way!

Those concepts are long out dated. There are some people with much too low levels of S & D (and the other catecholamines) that often correlate with functional disorders or symptom groups. BUt FAR FAR more common are people whose levels maybe oke within the broad so-called 'normal range', but who still have all sorts of issues related to neurotransmitter insufficiency ( notice I said Insufficiency NOT just a Deficit!).

The current Bundle Damage Theory that FAR better correlates with actual clinical experience than the Monoamine theory ever did, and which exposes the inherent flaws of SSRI drugs, postulates that damage to the receptors in various neuronal bundles from many causes ... Genetics , toxic exposure to drugs, chemicals too ,much drinking, viral illnesses, structurally damage and simply the stress, wear and tear of life, require far greater FUNCTIONAL levels of S & D for many people that are FAR above the limited 'normal' ranges, in order to restore functional recovery through these damaged neuron bundles. The required FUNCTIONAL levels for each given person can vary over a HUGE range.

Spinal taps are for direct measurement of NT, but excretion of urinary S & D has been shown to correlate with S & D and Norepinehrine and epi levels in the brain, but only AFTER loading with amino acid precursors.
Urinary testings of NTs is meaningless before loading.

http://www.neuroassist.com/Serotonin_Dopamine%20manu%20FINAL%20Nov%2030.pdf

The narrow scope and far too simple and misinformed nature of these older tests you refer too are much too confined and poorly structured in their design to see the forest for the trees.

And let me say again, any studies on Serotonin and Dopamine LEVELS using SSRI drugs are looking down the wrong end of the gun and are NOT describing the effect of NT repletion and adding greater NT levels in the brain, which these drugs simply DO NOT DO! Rather they simply fool the brain in to thinking it has more S & D than it really does for a while and yet also causing longer term DEPLETION of those same S & D stores. In a Catch 22.

But don't make the mistake that just because the SSRI drugs are flawed that this means neurotransmitters have no baring on depression symptoms and may other neurotransmitter' related' issues. That would be a highly faulty and thoroughly ignorant assumption!

Its late in Holland and going to bed. Good night!

Yes, SSRI drugs are faulted in their logic as are most theories on depresion. You mention drinking, chemicals, illness, ect. All real physical causes that can change brain chemistry. But this is not the same as saying that brain chemistry causes these things. That is faulted logic. Which is often worse than no logic at all. There is no clear evidence of "causal" relation between low levels of any neurotransmitters and "depression". In fact there is no evidence that "depression" is a disease. In point of fact it was only recently considered that by the psychiatric profession only recently in the latest DSRM. Remember these are the same people that defined homosexuality as a disease.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:02 PM
How much do genetics and the kinds of foods eaten contribute to ADD or depression? Seems like there is something there, though I don't know of any studies or results about them.

Oh I think they have a big influence but not entirely. But the crap they put in stuff like diet soda and foods with preservatives is pretty scary.

barryr
06-18-2009, 06:04 PM
Oh I think they have a big influence but not entirely. But the crap they put in stuff like diet soda and foods with preservatives is pretty scary.

Yes, aspertame is not good to say the least. The FDA doesn't see a problem with it I guess.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:06 PM
Yes, aspertame is not good to say the least. The FDA doesn't see a problem with it I guess.

Yes which is why I agree with OandBBlooded about the drugs. The FDA is not an agency that has patients in their best interest. Thy have the drug manufacturers best interest in mind. Which is sad for people who do have legit conditions like ADHD, bi-polar disorders, and depression.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:13 PM
It boils down to this. That without evidence of brain pathology no basis
exists to call emotional distress, disturbing
behavior, or unusual thoughts or perceptions
"neurobiological disorders." This and
similar terms negate the sufferer's distress
as reaction, protest, or adaptation to
his/her position in the personally relevant
social context. A person is understood in
terms of personal history and social
circumstances. A neurobiological disorder is
understood differently. The choice of labels
is of great consequence.

Moreover, finding reliable biological
markers would be only a first step toward
concluding that mental disorders are
essentially neurobiological. For example,
blushing, an obviously physical reaction, is
not biologically caused. Its effective cause
is acute embarrassment. Biological processes
make blushing possible but they do not cause
blushing.

barryr
06-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Yes which is why I agree with OandBBlooded about the drugs. The FDA is not an agency that has patients in their best interest. Thy have the drug manufacturers best interest in mind. Which is sad for people who do have legit conditions like ADHD, bi-polar disorders, and depression.

True, the FDA even puts out medicines and such and of course, they deem them the best, so another example of studying yourself and giving yourself high marks.

I was on Paxil for over a year and stopped taking it like 8 months ago. I have mixed feelings on it. I don't know if it really helped me at all and though you're not supposed to stop taking it cold turkey, I did and didn't really experience much side effect other than a couple episodes that lasted like couple seconds. I feel fine now, so did i really need it?

My grandmother's father died when he was like in his 40's. Just could not get himself out of bed, essentially suffering from depresion and there were no medicines back then to even try. My grandmother spent much time in and out of mental hospitals, from depression.

So why I wonder about genetics, foods, and whatever else? If not a chemical problem, then one must think it must be easy to say "just don't think that way." Is that really a good answer?

OABB
06-18-2009, 06:16 PM
here this is from the APA's site...

I think they say it better than I do.

This is the prodrug stance by the way....you can read it here
at critpsynet.freeuk.com/apa.htm

funny, how these doctors slipped this one in there:


Still, brain science has not advanced to the point where scientists or clinicians can point to readily discernible pathologic lesions or genetic abnormalities that in and of themselves serve as reliable or predictive biomarkers of a given mental disorder or mental disorders as a group. Ultimately, no gross anatomical lesion such as a tumor may ever be found; For more information, visit the APA Web site at http://www.psych.org.

September 26, 2003

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:19 PM
here this is from the APA's site...

I think they say it better than I do.



Still, brain science has not advanced to the point where scientists or clinicians can point to readily discernible pathologic lesions or genetic abnormalities that in and of themselves serve as reliable or predictive biomarkers of a given mental disorder or mental disorders as a group. Ultimately, no gross anatomical lesion such as a tumor may ever be found; For more information, visit the APA Web site at http://www.psych.org.

September 26, 2003



edit: I see sakuraba found the same page.


great minds....


O.k.

Far from definitive sure you don't have ADD you suck at paying attention? All that says is there no proof to either unequivocally disprove or confirm either side of the argument.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:23 PM
Far from definitive sure you don't have ADD you suck at paying attention? All that says is there no proof to either unequivocally disprove or confirm either side of the argument.

Wow, even when the APA says there is no evidence to support their premise you still cling on. You truly want this to be so. You are asking Orangeand blue to prove a negative.

You know there is no evidence to prove suicide doesn't cure a headache, so by your logic it is still a viable treatment.

OABB
06-18-2009, 06:24 PM
Yes which is why I agree with OandBBlooded about the drugs. The FDA is not an agency that has patients in their best interest. Thy have the drug manufacturers best interest in mind. Which is sad for people who do have legit conditions like ADHD, bi-polar disorders, and depression.

So did you get a spinal tap or blood test to determine your ADD?
niether, huh...



did they at least tap your knee with a reflex hammer?


Listen apa, explain to me how you have ADD...


now.


no more fidgeting.

show me the test that proves it.

let me guess, some doctor asked you some hypothetical questions and based off of your answers you were diagnosed.


hmmmm.





don't duck me honey.

OABB
06-18-2009, 06:26 PM
Far from definitive sure you don't have ADD you suck at paying attention? All that says is there no proof to either unequivocally disprove or confirm either side of the argument.

They are the one's stating that this stuff works and yet they admit that it doesn't. I showed you this because you asked for evidence...


I asked you for evidence first and you ducked me. do you wan't me to quote that one too?

Now it's your turn.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:28 PM
So did you get a spinal tap or blood test to determine your ADD?
niether, huh...

an MRI?
no?

did they at least tap your knee with a reflex hammer?


Listen apa, explain to me how you have ADD...


now.


no more fidgeting.

show me the test that proves it.

let me guess, some doctor asked you some hypothetical questions and based off of your answers you were diagnosed.


hmmmm.


did they give you a brain biopsy?



don't duck me honey.

Sure the first doctor gave me that diagnosis and I wasn't satisfied and had the MRI. I don't know if I still have a copy but if I can find it I will provide it. See I got second and third opinions and considered all the alternatives thoroughly. I also tried the medicine and hated it and will never go back and think they are not the best alternative.

So while you just are adamant about this being fake and have yet to give me solid proof its fake I would ask you why you can't accept that others have read documents and spoken with doctors not internet crack pots like yourself and believe something you don't?

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:32 PM
I am not ducking the question though but its hard to reproduce conversations with real medical doctors and I will do my best to find the brain MRI.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:32 PM
Sure the first doctor gave me that diagnosis and I wasn't satisfied and had the MRI. I don't know if I still have a copy but if I can find it I will provide it. See I got second and third opinions and considered all the alternatives thoroughly. I also tried the medicine and hated it and will never go back and think they are not the best alternative.

So while you just are adamant about this being fake and have yet to give me solid proof its fake I would ask you why you can't accept that others have read documents and spoken with doctors not internet crack pots like yourself and believe something you don't?

So a neurologist, a brain doctor, diagnosed you with ADHD? Even though they can't point to any pathology to indicate this as disease? Or to any real condition, biological? And you have yet to provide a shred of information regarding the reality of ADHD as biological condition.

OABB
06-18-2009, 06:33 PM
Sure the first doctor gave me that diagnosis and I wasn't satisfied and had the MRI. I don't know if I still have a copy but if I can find it I will provide it. See I got second and third opinions and considered all the alternatives thoroughly. I also tried the medicine and hated it and will never go back and think they are not the best alternative.

So while you just are adamant about this being fake and have yet to give me solid proof its fake I would ask you why you can't accept that others have read documents and spoken with doctors not internet crack pots like yourself and believe something you don't?

how does an MRI prove ADD?

MRI's can show brain bleeds, aneurisms, missing chunks etc. etc. Is there an ADD shaped brain?

They always do this ****. They hook up your brain and show you pictures, and based on where electric activity happens they try and map the brain. It's still subjective, and up to a doctor's interpretation.

They don't know Apa, they don't. They really really really don't.

It's just a theory. I'm sorry man. There is nothing wrong with you except that you are a douche bag.

Your brain is fine.

sorry.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:34 PM
I am not ducking the question though but its hard to reproduce conversations with real medical doctors and I will do my best to find the brain MRI.

You are ducking the question. You go on about wanting proof and Orangeandblue has proivided. Yet you just talk about " conversations" and feelings. You sound like a whiney woman. Be a man and use logic and facts.

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 06:40 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8071277?dopt=Abstract

Will that do?

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:41 PM
how does an MRI prove ADD?

MRI's can show brain bleeds, aneurisms, missing chunks etc. etc. Is there an ADD shaped brain?

They always do this ****. They hook up your brain and show you pictures, and based on where electric activity happens they try and map the brain. It's still subjective, and up to a doctor's interpretation.

They don't know Apa, they don't. They really really really don't.

It's just a theory. I'm sorry man. There is nothing wrong with you except that you are a douche bag.

Your brain is fine.

sorry.

You are right it doesn't prove it unequivocally but after talking with Doctors I chose to form my own opinion. Which you have such a problem with. You claim its fake its not and that pisses you off.

And to saku I am not ducking anything. I choose to base my opinion after discussing things with a doctor you know a real person. Not searching the internet because a guy who isn't even a doctor told me I am wrong. But because of that I can't provide the proof I use to make up my mind.

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 06:43 PM
how does an MRI prove ADD?

MRI's can show brain bleeds, aneurisms, missing chunks etc. etc. Is there an ADD shaped brain?

They always do this ****. They hook up your brain and show you pictures, and based on where electric activity happens they try and map the brain. It's still subjective, and up to a doctor's interpretation.

They don't know Apa, they don't. They really really really don't.

It's just a theory. I'm sorry man. There is nothing wrong with you except that you are a douche bag.

Your brain is fine.

sorry.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8660127

Seems good to me.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:43 PM
You are ducking the question. You go on about wanting proof and Orangeandblue has proivided. Yet you just talk about " conversations" and feelings. You sound like a whiney woman. Be a man and use logic and facts.

I am sorry am I getting to you? Do you have issues with women? Because you sound just as whiney but I just thought whiney, yet you associate that with women. Pretty closed minded and sexist remark there so that puts into perspective your thoughts.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 06:45 PM
The comedy in this is I agree with you O&B the drug manufacturers have destroyed the credibility in the medical field but that doesn't mean its fake.

gyldenlove
06-18-2009, 06:45 PM
how does an MRI prove ADD?

MRI's can show brain bleeds, aneurisms, missing chunks etc. etc. Is there an ADD shaped brain?

They always do this ****. They hook up your brain and show you pictures, and based on where electric activity happens they try and map the brain. It's still subjective, and up to a doctor's interpretation.

They don't know Apa, they don't. They really really really don't.

It's just a theory. I'm sorry man. There is nothing wrong with you except that you are a douche bag.

Your brain is fine.

sorry.

You are clearly not an expert on MRI, there are morphologic and volumetric differences associated with ADHD that are not too hard to detect. There are also strong associations with abnormaly high brain activity at certain sites during rest in ADHD patients that are easily mapped and measured using MRI imaging either Glutamate or a similar brain activity marker.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:52 PM
You might want to read this. It is a bit more recent then 1994.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252

Also in the study linked by gyldenlove it doesn't mention the actual numbers. Is it 1% improved?

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 06:59 PM
All these "maladies" ADHD, Depression, ect. Don't exist as such. Science. Real science, not people earning money from the drug manufacturers to "find" positive results, has shown that there is no evidence. It is a waste of money and resources to support it as such. There is a problem though. These drugs are dangerous and severely damaging to the individual. That is proven and acknowledged by the manufacturers themselves.

If you feel the need to have some fashionable exotic brain malady, then knock yourself out. Just don't ask us to buy into it. You can use your "disorder" to remain in denial about yourself and your life. It's all chocolate streams and rainbow skies.

OABB
06-18-2009, 06:59 PM
You are clearly not an expert on MRI, there are morphologic and volumetric differences associated with ADHD that are not too hard to detect. There are also strong associations with abnormaly high brain activity at certain sites during rest in ADHD patients that are easily mapped and measured using MRI imaging either Glutamate or a similar brain activity marker.

I am still at devry getting my MRi degree....no I am not an expert on MRI's, but that doesn't change the fact that the results are subjective.

Cancer is cancer, hiv is hiv, luekemia is luekemia,


ADD is nothing. High brain activity means nothing.

You are falling for crap science.

They don't know what the "HIgh ACtivity" even means.


Read closer.

a typical ADD or depression scientific report will read like this...


studies show this....blah blah blah, it MAY show a link blah blah blah.


I'm sorry, but the word MAY is not a definitive scientific term.

And the study that Gyldenlove showed is the same thing.

PAtients reported that they feel better...


these people are allready ****ed up if you agree with this crap, so why do we trust it when they say they see improvement...how can you trust people with abnormal brains?


There is no proof, only theory.

SCience runs into this all the time and people can't get their head around it. Science is supposed to be objective, and based on FACTS only....



They word "MAY" is not part of the scientific method is it.


Why can't you guys just admit that you are a product of your environment.

it's o.k.

OABB
06-18-2009, 07:01 PM
You might want to read this. It is a bit more recent then 1994.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252

Also in the study linked by gyldenlove it doesn't mention the actual numbers. Is it 1% improved?

I was going to respond to this as well... Gylden at least is doing his homework. But I agreee with you, the results aren't definitive enough.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 07:04 PM
ADHD! It's got electrolytes!

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 07:05 PM
I am still at devry getting my MRi degree....no I am not an expert on MRI's, but that doesn't change the fact that the results are subjective.

Cancer is cancer, hiv is hiv, luekemia is luekemia,


ADD is nothing. High brain activity means nothing.

You are falling for crap science.

They don't know what the "HIgh ACtivity" even means.


Read closer.

a typical ADD or depression scientific report will read like this...


studies show this....blah blah blah, it MAY show a link blah blah blah.


I'm sorry, but the word MAY is not a definitive scientific term.

And the study that Gyldenlove showed is the same thing.

PAtients reported that they feel better...


these people are allready ****ed up if you agree with this crap, so why do we trust it when they say they see improvement...how can you trust people with abnormal brains?


There is no proof, only theory.

SCience runs into this all the time and people can't get their head around it. Science is supposed to be objective, and based on FACTS only....



They word "MAY" is not part of the scientific method is it.


Why can't you guys just admit that you are a product of your environment.

it's o.k.


I

And you say you aren't condescending? You have only theory to argue your point. No solid proof like us. So why are you so sure? Come on enlighten us you are supposed to be an editor use your talent and provide proof that says all other theories are crack pot. Seriously if you give me the solid proof you have I will drop this tomorrow. Its not that hard but until then you have theory like we do.

OABB
06-18-2009, 07:06 PM
ADHD! It's got electrolytes!

what is an electrolyte?



It's what plants crave.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 07:07 PM
okay the truth is that ADHD is really a euphemism for "stupid". You can't concentrate or focus because you really just aren't that smart. Because schools have gotten all PC, that can't make you wear a dunce cap anymore so instead they say you have ADHD. That's really the truth.

Sorry


but you needed to know

OABB
06-18-2009, 07:10 PM
And you say you aren't condescending? You have only theory to argue your point. No solid proof like us. So why are you so sure? Come on enlighten us you are supposed to be an editor use your talent and provide proof that says all other theories are crack pot. Seriously if you give me the solid proof you have I will drop this tomorrow. Its not that hard but until then you have theory like we do.

Let me remind you of how this works. The burden of proof is on the person stating that a thing exists...

a negative can't be proven.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 07:11 PM
okay the truth is that ADHD is really a euphemism for "stupid". You can't concentrate or focus because you really just aren't that smart. Because schools have gotten all PC, that can't make you wear a dunce cap anymore so instead they say you have ADHD. That's really the truth.

Sorry


but you needed to know

HA thats the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site. You sir should be eliminated from the gene pool. Won't be hard you have this negative opinion of women which leads me to believe the only one who has ever given you attention is Mom and she doesn't count.

You are just killing any credibility you have on this site. Which wasn't much, oh man I will stop right here with this discussion because it can't get any better than this.

OABB
06-18-2009, 07:15 PM
HA thats the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site. You sir should be eliminated from the gene pool. Won't be hard you have this negative opinion of women which leads me to believe the only one who has ever given you attention is Mom and she doesn't count.

You are just killing any credibility you have on this site. Which wasn't much, oh man I will stop right here with this discussion because it can't get any better than this.

Do you have JADD? Joke attention deficit disorder?

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
Do you have JADD? Joke attention deficit disorder?

LOL Guess not because that was funny!

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
HA thats the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site. You sir should be eliminated from the gene pool. Won't be hard you have this negative opinion of women which leads me to believe the only one who has ever given you attention is Mom and she doesn't count.

You are just killing any credibility you have on this site. Which wasn't much, oh man I will stop right here with this discussion because it can't get any better than this.

Dumb is silent and I am never silent. But I guess you really do have ADHD or you would know the meaning of the word.

I'm sorry you felt so offended. Usually those of lower intelligence are happy as clams. After all ignorance is bliss. So why don't you just skip along to watch the big airplanes landing ZOOOOOOM! They are so big! ZOOOOOM!
Just be careful not to get sucked into the big engine.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 07:19 PM
Dumb is silent and I am never silent. But I guess you really do have ADHD or you would know the meaning of the word.

I'm sorry you felt so offended. Usually those of lower intelligence are happy as clams. After all ignorance is bliss. So why don't you just skip along to watch the big airplanes landing ZOOOOOOM! They are so big! ZOOOOOM!
Just be careful not to get sucked into the big engine.

Oh so your only retort is grade school taunts? I mean seriously thats all you have is airplane smack? Sounds like you are insecure in your own identity. Explains your sexist attitude and inferiority complex.

sakuraba
06-18-2009, 07:22 PM
Poor little stupid ADHD. Couldn't stay away? Did you miss the attention? Did you? Look! Look at the shiny ball! Look at it! Go! go get it!

OABB
06-18-2009, 07:22 PM
I'm going to give you a perspective that's different than any on this board, and one you probably won't run accross randomly anywhere else because it's unique in terms of the fact that it combines personal and professional experience over an extended period of time coupled with research and activism as well. You're free to take this for what you think it's worth but I should tell you where I'm coming from first. In the past whenever I've attempted to converse with people via the internet on this, I find a tremendous amount of opposition to what I'm saying, and I've learned from experience that this issue is emotional to some people. It's not something I will debate or argue in here, because having done so numerous times on the web over the last decade or so...I know from past experience that such discussion consume literally dozens of pages, hundreds of posts, and they solve nothing because many people choose to believe what they've had doctors tell them.

So having said that...here ya go:

I spent nearly 20 years working in and around the mental health field, both inside and later as a consultant. Nearly 15 years of that time was spent in the Texas mental health system, both public and private. That means that I've spent roughly 40,000 hours in close proximinty with people diagnosed with all kinds of psychiagtric disorders, and have had an extended opportunity to witness the impact that psych medications and other treatments have on people. I witnessed this while having the benefit of an both education that helped me understand what I was looking at, as well as the career experience behind the scenes. I mention this because what I'm telling you very few people who work in this field will ever admit to you if they're aware of it, and most are not aware.

Psychiatrists do not actually spend time with their patients. A psychiatrist is interested in one thing and one thinig only...what "diagnosis" should he give you that supports you taking drugs he will prescribe, but working first on the ground floor and then in case management, I had that opportunity to see and spend time with the patients themselves and observe the flaws and hidden secrets in the system. Probably no psychiatrist you'll ever meet can say they've spent this much time directly with their own patients, which is why I want you to understand that aspect and why it's so important. 99.9 % of people you ever talk to about this issue will tell you what they heard from someone, or what they think based on them or someone they know taking these medications. Psychiatrists themselves do not research these drugs...they have no reason to. Nor is time spent with the patient observing them what they do or what they're interested in. These issues are extremely important to me, and they have to do with personal and professional ethics as well. Between 1991 and 2001, I advocated for honesty and integrity inside the mental health system here and was terminated 7 times from positions because I insisted on truth over politics. I also reported and testified in over a dozen cases of medical fraud and mallpractice as well as patients rights abuses including faciities that covered up suicides, illegal use of ECT (shock treatment) and incidents of sexual and physical abuse related to staff against psych patients...I was finally black listed in the field before I left in 2001. During the course of this, I also left a masters program halfway through rather than devote a professional degree because of the ethics in this field.

During the early-90's while still working on my masters I began having serious reservations about many things associated with psychiatric treatments, disorders, therapies and most important...psychiatric drugs. From 1992 till 2002 I read and studied voraciously on these topics, delved into both published and unpublished research, spoke to hundreds of doctors and other clinicians and to patients across the entire range of diagnostics from severe depression to psychosis and also fad "disorders" like disassociative disorders (multiple personalities), and numerous adolescent-specific diagnostics. During this time I spent 6 years researching aspects of child/adolescent treatments, and especially how these disorders are handled in both the public health arenas and public education and designed adolescent intervention programs that don't utilize drug therapy or psychiatric diagnosis.

Here is my conclusion: The vast majority of psychiatric disorders, includiing ADHD, have no solid scientific basis in fact. Most are based on extremely dicey factual propositions, and the politics of this field is overwhelmingly committed to what we term, "biological" psychiatry, the belief that psychiatric and emotional problems are rooted in the chemistry of the brain. This is highly, HIGHLY dubious, and it's the PR engine that drives a mult-billion dollar drug business with expanding markets that include children as young as 3 years old. At one time, so called "talk therapy"...the belief that psychiatric issues resulted from environmental and emotional trauma...ruled the psych field. In the early '70's, biological psychiatrists formed alliances with pharmaceutical companies, attacked the credibility of the talk therapists with psuedo sceintific studies and pumped millions into supporting the American Psychiatric Association, as well as sponsored thousands of fellowships and other academic grants that churned out propaganda that managed to make their view the prevailing view...the result is what you see today; an unholy alliance of drug companies, highly paid doctors and very lucrative psychiatric treatment facilities working together in what is essentially the largest legal drug cartel in the world.

Before proceeding further, I suggest you take a look at two books, there are many others you can find with a Google search, but both of these are by one of the best experts in the field. Dr. Peter Breggin, is a 50 year, Harvard trained career psychiatrist and a board certified psychologist as well, which is very rare. He's also a passionate advocate of reform in this field and has been black listed, slandered and lied about by those with a financial axe to grind. You will find some of these attacks all over the web...believe me when I tell you...it's all utter bull****. Breggin is the the defacto expert of record in hundreds of lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly, the Prozac manufactuer. As such, he's been inside the sensitve and legally protected corporate information you can only view with a subpeona, not just the public information that most people have access to. I suggest you read Toxic Psychiatry, and then read Talking Back to Ritilin, both by this author. Read the one on Ritilin AFTER you read Toxic Psychiatry.

All psychiatric drugs are either psychologically or physically addictive on some level, often depending on the individual. All psych drugs have not only potential side effects, but more importantly, can cause brain damage over time, or other maladies like Tardive Diskinesia, a neuro-muscular disorder that causes incurable facial ticks and bizarre movements of the tongue and facial muscles. There are in fact, many other physical problems caused by long term exposure to these drugs.

Those who told you there is no such thing as ADHD are essentially correct. ADHD, like many other psychiatric disorders, is a marketing tool used by the psychiatric intervention industry to sell psycho pharmaceutical drugs. No doctor in the world can assure you that you have this "disease" because no medical test exists to reveal it. The test given kids by a QMHP (Qualified Mental Health Practitioner) like a doctor or social worker, is entirely subjective, is based on answers to questions that the majority of people...certainly the majority of children...mostly have in common. No blood test or other physical test exists that can diagnose ADHD. Some people will tell you that PET scans or other brain imaging examinations support the diagnostics. Do not believe this...it's a flat out lie. The truth is...no matter who you are, but especially if you're a child, when you go for a diagnostic evaluation on ADD/ADHD you will probably be told you have it. In 15 years working mostly in adolescent psychiatry, I saw literally hundreds, probably thousands, of children who were administered this test. I have NEVER seen a child who was submitted for evaluation that was NOT diagnosed with the disorder...NEVER.

ADHD is a collection of behaviors that either annoy adults, or in some cases represent psycho social adjustments adults themselves make in response to common stressors and what has become an information based, high velocity society where concentration is sometimes subjected to circuit overload. Drugs like Adderall and Ritilin are dangerous, and highly addictive. Ritilin is Methylphenidate, a dangerous stimulant classified by the World Health Organization as a dangerous drug in the same class as cocain. In fact Ritilin has many of the same addiction pathways as cocain and speed, and can irreparably damage the mind and the body. People who tell you otherwise are either hiding this fact or they're unaware of it. No longitudinal (long term) research studies exist that examine the long term impact of drugs like Ritilin on the developing child brain, but studies in adults have shown damage. In essence...we know very little about the long term impact of most of these drugs. The drug studies themselves are highly skewed to the advantage of the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture them. Few people realize that pharmaceutical companies are actually permitted to hire their own doctors to do these studes, that studies are generally done to study if the drug is effective, not the safety of the drug. Read Breggin and others on the Prozac trials and how Eli Lilly has quietyly partnered with the FDA to keep this kind of information from the public.

From 1994-2001 I consulted with over 400 parents involved with schools attempting to put their kids on psych drugs like Ritilin...that's because schools have a financial stake in seeing children diagnosed with these disorder, as well as a social one. I was also responsible for serving on court mandated public school task forces that put me in contact with this. Medicated kids are easier to control and children with various diagnosed disorders irequiring drugs like Ritilin garner additional money from the State Education Boards, in some cases thousands of dollars a year. In 1997 I was at the epicenter of a state and federal investigation into how schools work with psychiatric hospitals and other private providers and other diagnosticians to put kids on these drugs. This investigation resulted in nearly 100 mental health facilites and other clincis in the Dallas area alone being either fined, sued or eventually forced to close their doors and included the largest fine ever levied by the federal government against a private health care provider. Texas Attorney General Dan Morales spearheaded this and it went nationwide within 6 months. The resulting fallout caused a shockwave in mental health treatment that is still reverberating in the form of how and what HMO's and other managed health providers were willing to pay for. That caused the bottom to drop from the in-patient psych treatment industry within 3 years, and the industry has tried to make up the difference in revenues with new strategies, including the wholesale introduction of these drug treatments into schools. Issus of patients rights abuses, phony diagnostics, insurance and medicare fraud, illegal and unethical treatments, and my favorite...paid headhunters in public schools like school guidance counselors and nurses getting paid under the table in exchange for psych referrals that often trigger as the result of so called "zero tolerance" policies...gave me a bird's eye view of this field and the damage it can do to people.

If you want to know how to deal with your problem, read the two books I reccomended, because that issue is way bigger than I can go into, but suffice to say that these issues can be corrected with other means. I've seen it happen numerous times. In the meantime...do your own research. Dig into this in depth before you continue taking medications or worse...put kids on them. Make an informed decision...it will take you considerable time and effort but it's something you need to do if you're being told you need to take psych drugs.


I know this is a giant wall of text, but this should be read....well done.

theAPAOps5
06-18-2009, 08:21 PM
I know this is a giant wall of text, but this should be read....well done.

Lots of people miss out on Footsteps stuff because he posts such long entries but they are always thought provoking.

mr007
06-18-2009, 11:24 PM
I know this is a giant wall of text, but this should be read....well done.

The problem with what you write vs what Footsteps writes is that your are overwhelming obnoxious and do not provide positive input and you aren't even willing to listen to the other side of a conversation.

In his case, he was in the field and saw what we see daily in society. It's called Greed. It's called taking advantage of people to make as much money as possible, you just see it on a much larger scale with the drug companies.

His perspective was based on real life experiences and his research into science. His perspective also states that the reasoning behind his thoughts are because there is currently no scientific evidence that supports this (as it's theory). Also, there is an obvious financial advantage to diagnosing tons of people that exhibit certain behavior as ADD or ADHD.

The problem here is that you continue to spout nonsense and verbally attack individuals who disagree with your OPINION that there is no such thing. We do not have a full understanding of what occurs in and affects the mind and body at all times. If we did, there would be no such discussion or argument, there would simply be facts.

The face that this is even a debate proves there is no 100% dead-on this is what causes these behavior traits in a person. Everything, including your thought that it simply doesn't exist, is theory and people may choose to believe one way or another. Just because something has not been proven YET does not mean it is 100% not true.

OABB
06-18-2009, 11:33 PM
The problem with what you write vs what Footsteps writes is that your are overwhelming obnoxious and do not provide positive input and you aren't even willing to listen to the other side of a conversation.

In his case, he was in the field and saw what we see daily in society. It's called Greed. It's called taking advantage of people to make as much money as possible, you just see it on a much larger scale with the drug companies.

His perspective was based on real life experiences and his research into science. His perspective also states that the reasoning behind his thoughts are because there is currently no scientific evidence that supports this (as it's theory). Also, there is an obvious financial advantage to diagnosing tons of people that exhibit certain behavior as ADD or ADHD.

The problem here is that you continue to spout nonsense and verbally attack individuals who disagree with your OPINION that there is no such thing. We do not have a full understanding of what occurs in and affects the mind and body at all times. If we did, there would be no such discussion or argument, there would simply be facts.

The face that this is even a debate proves there is no 100% dead-on this is what causes these behavior traits in a person. Everything, including your thought that it simply doesn't exist, is theory and people may choose to believe one way or another. Just because something has not been proven YET does not mean it is 100% not true.


I agree. Although, I never personally attacked anyone unless I was attacked first. Read the thread again. I was called an idiot just because I said ADD doesn't exist. I backed it up and debated fine.

Apa and me have gone back and forth before and it always ends respectable. We PM or talk through rep and there are no hard feelings.

I admit that I am prone to hyperbole and that I may be combative, but this is a message board, and there should be a bit of over the top tirades or it's just boring.

I believe that I made my case and that I have nothing to regret. ADD does not exist until proven that it does. It is a theory and that is all that it is. Sometimes you need to hammer the point because people are very defensive about this stuff.

If you pay attention to everything I said than you will see that I have nothing to go back on.

I was right, neener. neener. neener.


Also, if I am called an idiot I am going to fire back. This debate was steered by more than just me.

Footsteps can be a condescending prick at times too. In fact we all can.

It's the internet.

I am a tough SOB on the internet!


But seriously, reread this thread and try to take out your bias against what i said and you will probably agree.

Is it possible that ADD is real and that I am a douche? Yes, of course.

It's also possible that there really is a fat gene and eating too much has nothing to do with the giant bloated sack that fatties have around their waste? Sure.

I think it is safe to say that that is highly improbable just like ADD is.

mr007
06-18-2009, 11:34 PM
On a side note, I have hives and have had them for over a year. No effing doctor or test can explain to me why I have hives and why I've actually had to take an anti-histamine the over the past year to control this.

There is no brain study, just a study of what's going on in my body and it can't possibly be explained. To me, trying to figure out why a person has hives would be much easier than attempting to explain something that would be much more complicated (such as ADD or ADHD).

So while my problem is provable (it's actually visible), there is no logical explanation, proof, or theory that explains my day to day struggles.

The difference between my problem and someone with a mental problem is that you can physically see there is something wrong with me where you can't make the physical determination of someone with a mental problem. To me, that's completely closed-minded.

I'm not saying I support following a drug approach to curing a problem (for my hives I actually have no choice), but to say a problem doesn't exist just because there's no scientific evidence to back it up (as there's no scientific evidence that backs up why I actually have these gay ass hives), doesn't mean the problem is fictitious.

mr007
06-18-2009, 11:38 PM
I agree. Although, I never personally attacked anyone unless I was attacked first. Read the thread again. I was called an idiot just because I said ADD doesn't exist. I backed it up and debated fine.


In all fairness, when you say something definitely does not exist to a person who 100% believes it does exist and suffers from that condition, it is probably perceived as an attack by that individual.

OABB
06-18-2009, 11:48 PM
On a side note, I have hives and have had them for over a year. No effing doctor or test can explain to me why I have hives and why I've actually had to take an anti-histamine the over the past year to control this.

There is no brain study, just a study of what's going on in my body and it can't possibly be explained. To me, trying to figure out why a person has hives would be much easier than attempting to explain something that would be much more complicated (such as ADD or ADHD).

So while my problem is provable (it's actually visible), there is no logical explanation, proof, or theory that explains my day to day struggles.

The difference between my problem and someone with a mental problem is that you can physically see there is something wrong with me where you can't make the physical determination of someone with a mental problem. To me, that's completely closed-minded.

I'm not saying I support following a drug approach to curing a problem (for my hives I actually have no choice), but to say a problem doesn't exist just because there's no scientific evidence to back it up (as there's no scientific evidence that backs up why I actually have these gay ass hives), doesn't mean the problem is fictitious.

True. but the argument isn't wether people have problems concentrating, the argument is that ADD is a biological problem caused by a chemical disorder.

It is very dangerous to think this way if there is no evidence.

do you not see this?

Hives are a biological reaction and that is why you CAN see them or test for them. because they are really real.

let me ask you this....

What if "ADD" is really a lifestyle problem? Would you want someone you care about to claim it is chemical if the treatment were simply a lifestyle change? would you want them to never fix it?

you see, by not dealing with the real problem, you never can grow.

It's like when alcoholics say they have a disease. It's total bull****. Until they realize they are self medicating and deal with whatever they are really sad about, they will always be sad. blaming the booze or saying it's achemical thing is death.

I care about the guys here. I know it's silly but I do. When I hear Ames talk about losing his father in the same sentence that he says his depression is chemical it makes me so deeply sad. Or Spider say that his anger may be chemical in the same sentence that he states someone in his family was violent, it kills me.

i am altruistic in my dickiness....

Only when you deal with the real problem can you free yourself from the bondage of it.


Do you think alcohol really makes Mel Gibson hate Jews? I think having an anti semetic father has something to do with it...


I will always get into trouble about this stuff because I know how people think. I know that people are naturally scared and don't want to face there demons.


We all have them, and the APA and NIMH and pharmecutical companies use this to make money. It is a crime of epic proportions.


so again, if your depressed, it's cause your life is depressing....I will never change this view. ever.

OABB
06-18-2009, 11:50 PM
In all fairness, when you say something definitely does not exist to a person who 100% believes it does exist and suffers from that condition, it is probably perceived as an attack by that individual.

true. But what if they are wrong?

alkemical
06-19-2009, 06:16 AM
I did read your link, and I have been following the seratonin theory back to thorazine research in the 50's... "out of whack" is not a scientific statement.

It's this theory that seratonin was linked to depression that started the SSRI version of anti-depressants (Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitors). What research is finding now, is that these meds change your seratonin levels, and actually cause depression, suicidal tendencies, and even permanent brain damage.

Just saying Seretonin levels are different in some people REALLY means nothing. The science is theory, and even the APA(American Psychiatrict Association) admitted that there still isn't a known biological way to test depression.

You are confusing me. You claim that you have a chemical issue right?

but than you mention you lost your father when you were 7. I am not a psychiatrist, but do you think maybe, in your case, it is environmental?

It's was no longer environmental after i "got over it" when i was 11.

Don't dismiss the other articles i linked in the post you quoted.

alkemical
06-19-2009, 06:28 AM
Yes, SSRI drugs are faulted in their logic as are most theories on depresion. You mention drinking, chemicals, illness, ect. All real physical causes that can change brain chemistry. But this is not the same as saying that brain chemistry causes these things. That is faulted logic. Which is often worse than no logic at all. There is no clear evidence of "causal" relation between low levels of any neurotransmitters and "depression". In fact there is no evidence that "depression" is a disease. In point of fact it was only recently considered that by the psychiatric profession only recently in the latest DSRM. Remember these are the same people that defined homosexuality as a disease.

My point in referencing the seratonin levels was that body chemistry can influence mood and behaviour.

I mean, you have weird things like toxoplasmosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis):

Possible link to psychological disorders

The toxoplasmosis parasite may also trigger the development of schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, Parkinson’s Disease, Tourette’s syndrome and attention deficit disorders. The University of Leeds’ Faculty of Biological Sciences has shown a statistical link between toxoplasmosis infections and incidences of schizophrenia. Research finds that a person with schizophrenia is more likely to have toxoplasmosis than the general population.[6] The parasite produces an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase which may contribute to the development of these psychological disorders by affecting the production of dopamine. These changes in the chemistry of the brain can significantly affect behaviour. Well documented is dopamine’s role in mood, sociability, attention, and motivation and sleep patterns. Schizophrenia has long been associated with dopamine, which is the target of all currently available schizophrenia drugs. Research is ongoing to confirm whether or not there is a causal link, which is proving difficult because there are many factors involved. Health risks of toxoplasmosis include occasional fatalities.[7]


So to just deny that mental illnesses cannot be genetic (which, would indeed include chemistry - if the body doesn't produce enough of this or that), is silly IMO.

But really, some people want to argue the belief of free will overriding all genetic make up, i just don't see that as "fact".

But i'm not going to argue on it. I'm pretty open to research and have seen things first hand with how mental illnesses are more prevalent in families where there's been a history of such things.

Just like heart disease, cancer, etc. You can have a greater susceptibility due by genetics alone.

That's it, that's that.

gunns
06-19-2009, 09:53 AM
I'm going to give you a perspective that's different than any on this board, and one you probably won't run accross randomly anywhere else because it's unique in terms of the fact that it combines personal and professional experience over an extended period of time coupled with research and activism as well. You're free to take this for what you think it's worth but I should tell you where I'm coming from first. In the past whenever I've attempted to converse with people via the internet on this, I find a tremendous amount of opposition to what I'm saying, and I've learned from experience that this issue is emotional to some people. It's not something I will debate or argue in here, because having done so numerous times on the web over the last decade or so...I know from past experience that such discussion consume literally dozens of pages, hundreds of posts, and they solve nothing because many people choose to believe what they've had doctors tell them.

So having said that...here ya go:

I spent nearly 20 years working in and around the mental health field, both inside and later as a consultant. Nearly 15 years of that time was spent in the Texas mental health system, both public and private. That means that I've spent roughly 40,000 hours in close proximinty with people diagnosed with all kinds of psychiagtric disorders, and have had an extended opportunity to witness the impact that psych medications and other treatments have on people. I witnessed this while having the benefit of an both education that helped me understand what I was looking at, as well as the career experience behind the scenes. I mention this because what I'm telling you very few people who work in this field will ever admit to you if they're aware of it, and most are not aware.

Psychiatrists do not actually spend time with their patients. A psychiatrist is interested in one thing and one thinig only...what "diagnosis" should he give you that supports you taking drugs he will prescribe, but working first on the ground floor and then in case management, I had that opportunity to see and spend time with the patients themselves and observe the flaws and hidden secrets in the system. Probably no psychiatrist you'll ever meet can say they've spent this much time directly with their own patients, which is why I want you to understand that aspect and why it's so important. 99.9 % of people you ever talk to about this issue will tell you what they heard from someone, or what they think based on them or someone they know taking these medications. Psychiatrists themselves do not research these drugs...they have no reason to. Nor is time spent with the patient observing them what they do or what they're interested in. These issues are extremely important to me, and they have to do with personal and professional ethics as well. Between 1991 and 2001, I advocated for honesty and integrity inside the mental health system here and was terminated 7 times from positions because I insisted on truth over politics. I also reported and testified in over a dozen cases of medical fraud and mallpractice as well as patients rights abuses including faciities that covered up suicides, illegal use of ECT (shock treatment) and incidents of sexual and physical abuse related to staff against psych patients...I was finally black listed in the field before I left in 2001. During the course of this, I also left a masters program halfway through rather than devote a professional degree because of the ethics in this field.

During the early-90's while still working on my masters I began having serious reservations about many things associated with psychiatric treatments, disorders, therapies and most important...psychiatric drugs. From 1992 till 2002 I read and studied voraciously on these topics, delved into both published and unpublished research, spoke to hundreds of doctors and other clinicians and to patients across the entire range of diagnostics from severe depression to psychosis and also fad "disorders" like disassociative disorders (multiple personalities), and numerous adolescent-specific diagnostics. During this time I spent 6 years researching aspects of child/adolescent treatments, and especially how these disorders are handled in both the public health arenas and public education and designed adolescent intervention programs that don't utilize drug therapy or psychiatric diagnosis.

Here is my conclusion: The vast majority of psychiatric disorders, includiing ADHD, have no solid scientific basis in fact. Most are based on extremely dicey factual propositions, and the politics of this field is overwhelmingly committed to what we term, "biological" psychiatry, the belief that psychiatric and emotional problems are rooted in the chemistry of the brain. This is highly, HIGHLY dubious, and it's the PR engine that drives a mult-billion dollar drug business with expanding markets that include children as young as 3 years old. At one time, so called "talk therapy"...the belief that psychiatric issues resulted from environmental and emotional trauma...ruled the psych field. In the early '70's, biological psychiatrists formed alliances with pharmaceutical companies, attacked the credibility of the talk therapists with psuedo sceintific studies and pumped millions into supporting the American Psychiatric Association, as well as sponsored thousands of fellowships and other academic grants that churned out propaganda that managed to make their view the prevailing view...the result is what you see today; an unholy alliance of drug companies, highly paid doctors and very lucrative psychiatric treatment facilities working together in what is essentially the largest legal drug cartel in the world.

Before proceeding further, I suggest you take a look at two books, there are many others you can find with a Google search, but both of these are by one of the best experts in the field. Dr. Peter Breggin, is a 50 year, Harvard trained career psychiatrist and a board certified psychologist as well, which is very rare. He's also a passionate advocate of reform in this field and has been black listed, slandered and lied about by those with a financial axe to grind. You will find some of these attacks all over the web...believe me when I tell you...it's all utter bull****. Breggin is the the defacto expert of record in hundreds of lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly, the Prozac manufactuer. As such, he's been inside the sensitve and legally protected corporate information you can only view with a subpeona, not just the public information that most people have access to. I suggest you read Toxic Psychiatry, and then read Talking Back to Ritilin, both by this author. Read the one on Ritilin AFTER you read Toxic Psychiatry.

All psychiatric drugs are either psychologically or physically addictive on some level, often depending on the individual. All psych drugs have not only potential side effects, but more importantly, can cause brain damage over time, or other maladies like Tardive Diskinesia, a neuro-muscular disorder that causes incurable facial ticks and bizarre movements of the tongue and facial muscles. There are in fact, many other physical problems caused by long term exposure to these drugs.

Those who told you there is no such thing as ADHD are essentially correct. ADHD, like many other psychiatric disorders, is a marketing tool used by the psychiatric intervention industry to sell psycho pharmaceutical drugs. No doctor in the world can assure you that you have this "disease" because no medical test exists to reveal it. The test given kids by a QMHP (Qualified Mental Health Practitioner) like a doctor or social worker, is entirely subjective, is based on answers to questions that the majority of people...certainly the majority of children...mostly have in common. No blood test or other physical test exists that can diagnose ADHD. Some people will tell you that PET scans or other brain imaging examinations support the diagnostics. Do not believe this...it's a flat out lie. The truth is...no matter who you are, but especially if you're a child, when you go for a diagnostic evaluation on ADD/ADHD you will probably be told you have it. In 15 years working mostly in adolescent psychiatry, I saw literally hundreds, probably thousands, of children who were administered this test. I have NEVER seen a child who was submitted for evaluation that was NOT diagnosed with the disorder...NEVER.

ADHD is a collection of behaviors that either annoy adults, or in some cases represent psycho social adjustments adults themselves make in response to common stressors and what has become an information based, high velocity society where concentration is sometimes subjected to circuit overload. Drugs like Adderall and Ritilin are dangerous, and highly addictive. Ritilin is Methylphenidate, a dangerous stimulant classified by the World Health Organization as a dangerous drug in the same class as cocain. In fact Ritilin has many of the same addiction pathways as cocain and speed, and can irreparably damage the mind and the body. People who tell you otherwise are either hiding this fact or they're unaware of it. No longitudinal (long term) research studies exist that examine the long term impact of drugs like Ritilin on the developing child brain, but studies in adults have shown damage. In essence...we know very little about the long term impact of most of these drugs. The drug studies themselves are highly skewed to the advantage of the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture them. Few people realize that pharmaceutical companies are actually permitted to hire their own doctors to do these studes, that studies are generally done to study if the drug is effective, not the safety of the drug. Read Breggin and others on the Prozac trials and how Eli Lilly has quietyly partnered with the FDA to keep this kind of information from the public.

From 1994-2001 I consulted with over 400 parents involved with schools attempting to put their kids on psych drugs like Ritilin...that's because schools have a financial stake in seeing children diagnosed with these disorder, as well as a social one. I was also responsible for serving on court mandated public school task forces that put me in contact with this. Medicated kids are easier to control and children with various diagnosed disorders irequiring drugs like Ritilin garner additional money from the State Education Boards, in some cases thousands of dollars a year. In 1997 I was at the epicenter of a state and federal investigation into how schools work with psychiatric hospitals and other private providers and other diagnosticians to put kids on these drugs. This investigation resulted in nearly 100 mental health facilites and other clincis in the Dallas area alone being either fined, sued or eventually forced to close their doors and included the largest fine ever levied by the federal government against a private health care provider. Texas Attorney General Dan Morales spearheaded this and it went nationwide within 6 months. The resulting fallout caused a shockwave in mental health treatment that is still reverberating in the form of how and what HMO's and other managed health providers were willing to pay for. That caused the bottom to drop from the in-patient psych treatment industry within 3 years, and the industry has tried to make up the difference in revenues with new strategies, including the wholesale introduction of these drug treatments into schools. Issus of patients rights abuses, phony diagnostics, insurance and medicare fraud, illegal and unethical treatments, and my favorite...paid headhunters in public schools like school guidance counselors and nurses getting paid under the table in exchange for psych referrals that often trigger as the result of so called "zero tolerance" policies...gave me a bird's eye view of this field and the damage it can do to people.

If you want to know how to deal with your problem, read the two books I reccomended, because that issue is way bigger than I can go into, but suffice to say that these issues can be corrected with other means. I've seen it happen numerous times. In the meantime...do your own research. Dig into this in depth before you continue taking medications or worse...put kids on them. Make an informed decision...it will take you considerable time and effort but it's something you need to do if you're being told you need to take psych drugs.

As many of you know I work for the segment of government that doles (and before you say typical government employee posting on a board during work time, I work a 4 day work week, so there). I agree with a lot of this post although I have no expertise on diagnosis and medication.

We have to get a diagnosis from psychiatrists to verify a person has a "condition" that makes it so they cannot work. I've often wondered how a Dr can determine a person is depressed. Based on what they tell them? After reading a lot of these diagnosis and how they came about I could walk into a Drs office and say the "right" thing, get medication and be determined I can't work. A lot of these people I see as just a**holes who have gotten a paper that gives them permission to act the way they do. In fact the only mental condition I've noted that is legitimate and medication necessary is schizophrenia.

I'm wondering what the difference is between a psychiatrist and a psychologists. We have one Dr we work with who is a psychologist and she will flat out state this person just doesn't want to work. She can spot a phony a mile away. I think we've become an over medicated society and the mental health area is one of the biggest culprits. A lot of those medications seem to make the condition worse and give the person a justified reason to behave the way they do and be a leech on society.

HILife
06-19-2009, 10:36 AM
Has anyone been diagnosed with this? Did you go through a psych? If so, how have things changed for you since being diagnosed??

I actually think I've had this for a very long time. I also kind of think it's over diagnosed but want to hear some thoughts. I have one friend that takes Adderall for it everyday. I'm not sure I'd want to go that route, I've had it before and it definitely helps me increase my focus to tasks at hand instead of drifting all over the place.

Anyway, if you have some experience in this arena, please share!

Some times I think I have this myself. Have alot of the simptomes for it, but it could also just be a lack of really putting in the effort.

OABB
06-19-2009, 04:33 PM
My point in referencing the seratonin levels was that body chemistry can influence mood and behaviour.

I mean, you have weird things like toxoplasmosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis):

Possible link to psychological disorders

The toxoplasmosis parasite may also trigger the development of schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, Parkinson’s Disease, Tourette’s syndrome and attention deficit disorders. The University of Leeds’ Faculty of Biological Sciences has shown a statistical link between toxoplasmosis infections and incidences of schizophrenia. Research finds that a person with schizophrenia is more likely to have toxoplasmosis than the general population.[6] The parasite produces an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase which may contribute to the development of these psychological disorders by affecting the production of dopamine. These changes in the chemistry of the brain can significantly affect behaviour. Well documented is dopamine’s role in mood, sociability, attention, and motivation and sleep patterns. Schizophrenia has long been associated with dopamine, which is the target of all currently available schizophrenia drugs. Research is ongoing to confirm whether or not there is a causal link, which is proving difficult because there are many factors involved. Health risks of toxoplasmosis include occasional fatalities.[7]


So to just deny that mental illnesses cannot be genetic (which, would indeed include chemistry - if the body doesn't produce enough of this or that), is silly IMO.

But really, some people want to argue the belief of free will overriding all genetic make up, i just don't see that as "fact".

But i'm not going to argue on it. I'm pretty open to research and have seen things first hand with how mental illnesses are more prevalent in families where there's been a history of such things.

Just like heart disease, cancer, etc. You can have a greater susceptibility due by genetics alone.

That's it, that's that.

again, when "mays" become "wills" I'll listen.

Monkees MAY fly out of my butt.

mr007
06-19-2009, 06:06 PM
again, when "mays" become "wills" I'll listen.

Monkees MAY fly out of my butt.

I think your perspective classifies you as a lemming =).

daysofcoleco
06-19-2009, 07:26 PM
Know what your talking about before you post that nonsense!! I have a 3 year old boy who is the most energetic little guy ever, he goes outside every possible chance he gets(there are no video games or other sh*t you speak of taking his outside and physical play time away), yet when it is time for him to sit and focus on a book, or just writing his name it is very hard for him. He has not been diagnosed with it, but there is always that possiblity. Do I agree with medicine, IDK, but I sure don't want to see my little guy getting in trouble in school because of ADHD!!

Have you ever been around kids or adults that have had this? This is not a joke, yes it is over diagnosed on many occasions, but by no means is it all because parents aren't getting their kids physical activity. Unless you've been thru it or around it, don't make dumb@$$ assumptions.

Yeah - my son is three too and he just couldn't focus on his calculus whatsoever. So I started crushing up some Adderall and sprinkling it in his food. It is working really well now except sometimes I wake up in the night and he's standing over me with a meat cleaver in his hand.... maybe I should up his dose.... I want him in medical school before he's 6. But no pressure or anything, afterall, he's ONLY FKING THREE!!! How stupid could you be?

OABB
06-19-2009, 09:02 PM
Yeah - my son is three too and he just couldn't focus on his calculus whatsoever. So I started crushing up some Adderall and sprinkling it in his food. It is working really well now except sometimes I wake up in the night and he's standing over me with a meat cleaver in his hand.... maybe I should up his dose.... I want him in medical school before he's 6. But no pressure or anything, afterall, he's ONLY FKING THREE!!! How stupid could you be?

best. post. ever.

footstepsfrom#27
06-19-2009, 11:04 PM
I'm wondering what the difference is between a psychiatrist and a psychologists. We have one Dr we work with who is a psychologist and she will flat out state this person just doesn't want to work. She can spot a phony a mile away.
A Psychologist is not a medical doctor. Their education consists of a PhD in some area of psychology while a Pscychiatrist is an M.D. specializing in the medical discipline of psychiatry. Psychologists work with theories of human behavior realted to the mind...the emotional and cognitive context behind the behavioral context. Psychiatrists work with brain chemistry and physiology as the impetus behind behavior and they see human behavior as more or less robotic response to chemicals in the brain. Psychologists want to know what's happened in your environment to influence your behavior, your emotional states, your personality development, your interaction with the people and the world around you. Psychiatrists want to know only what behavior you exhibit and how it's classified in the DSM-IV...the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's the "Bible" of psychiatry. Once the diagnosis is determined, a treatment plan consisting of prescribed drug therapy is introduced...or in some cases, Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT)...shock treatment. Psychiatry has a dark history of experimentation on people...the Nazi's come to mind along with the insane asylums of Soviet Russia among other places.

In the current medical environment facilitated by the triumph of biological psychiatry over psychology (talk therapy) in the 1970's...the apex of power in the mental health world is held by the Psychiatrist in partnership with the pharmaceutical companies. Psychiatrists have the power to court commit patients to psych facilities against their will. They have the power to both prescribe drugs and force patients to take these drugs whether or not they wish to. Psychologists have no such power. Psychiatrists rule the roost in the mental health community. Because psychiatry has been legally and professionally credited as an empirical science (it's not) and designated as such by government, it's medical and legal authority cannot be questioned or superceded by psychologists.

Psychiatrists have little use for psychology or it's focus on talk therapy, the study of the emotional mind or the need to influence people's behavior through introspection. The image of the shrink in the tweed smoking jacket stroking his beard, smoking his pipe and conversing with his patient about how he feels about his mother with the patient on the couch is a figment of the public's imagination from TV, movies and popular culture. Psychiatrists do not spend time talking to patients because they believe the causes of behavior are limited to brain chemistry that can only be controled with medications. Mecically speaking, the Psychiatrist believes that what people think or feel is completely irrelevant to what they do, hence...therapy is a waste of time.

Most psychologists have come to believe in the necessity for psychotropic drugs for some patients due to the overwhelming and pervasive influence of psychiatric propaganda in their professional literature, but they begin with trying to help people deal with emotions and thinking patterns by gaining insight into problems through working through things in therapy. Few Psychiatrists on the other hand, value or respect the contributions of Psychologists or therapists in the treatment of mental disorders. However, because they've learned that patients want these services, and they know they are revenue producers that help drive their own business and produce value added worth in the mind of the paying customer, they tolerate Pschology and its talk therapists...as subordinates to them of course.

During the time I spent in the field, I worked with hudreds of Psychiatrists. I can probably count on one hand the number I felt had any respect for their patients. Usually their time with patients is so limited...5 minutes at a time is about average...that they generally don't even know who their patients are until they are told by hospital staff. Often the patient was under the illusion that their doctor was there for them to speak with about their emotional/psychiatric issues, but in reality, only the Psychologist or therapist was interested in this. I often witnessed doctors return to the confines of offices or nursing stations and heard them making fun of patients behind their backs. For anyone with the need to speak to a "professional", the Psychiatrist is the last person who they should talk to. The training they receive virtually guarantees they are unable to work with people in the emotional realm.

alkemical
06-22-2009, 05:56 AM
again, when "mays" become "wills" I'll listen.

Monkees MAY fly out of my butt.

Just like your POV, it's not a FACT, it's just a theory. so there's no point to even listen to you, right?

chaz
06-22-2009, 12:03 PM
It's kind of hard to explain... I always had to be doing something when I was on Adderall. I didn't like having conversations with people... it just felt like I had to get stuff done. Like during lunch I couldn't eat and I didn't want to talk to people so I would be in the Library working on stuff that didn't have to be done for weeks. I got straight A's on the stuff though.

When I wasn't on it I never could get anything done and I was always talking to people. I was a completely different person when I was on the stuff.

I haven't taken Adderall for about 6 years, but I don't think I have outgrown ADHD. I still have trouble focusing on stuff that doesn't interest me, I get distracted pretty easily and just drift off and have to get myself back on track.

I can second this...currently have one more year of college left and debating if the straight A's is worth the side effects...

OABB
06-22-2009, 12:36 PM
Just like your POV, it's not a FACT, it's just a theory. so there's no point to even listen to you, right?

I have provided facts. My argument is valid. I can't(AGAIN FOR THE SLOWER CHILDREN) prove a negative.

The burden of proof is on those who believe this garbage.

You need to convince, not me.

I have provided a direct quote form the APA PROVING that there is no evidence supporting that depression is biological.

They diagnose you using question and answers....

i'll repeat that- QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS!

When you get diagnosed with cancer, does that doctor diagnose you based on how you answer questions, or does he do a biopsy?

This is the crucial point that can not be ignored.

How many here with a depression diagnosis have received a spinal tap or blood test?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 12:37 PM
wow I am amazed at how people here have no ability to reason correctly. They are saying they believe something. Then when someone with a brain says there is no actual proof this is so they say, "that's your theory". No, it's not theory. Don
t people understand that if they make a claim that something exists there is a burden of proof required? What the hell? Did everybody miss that day in grade school? Does no one understand fundamental logic?

OABB
06-22-2009, 12:44 PM
I think your perspective classifies you as a lemming =).

So the guy here that is arguing fact is the lemming?

what does that make those of you who name call and provide no evidence?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 12:44 PM
My point in referencing the seratonin levels was that body chemistry can influence mood and behaviour.

I mean, you have weird things like toxoplasmosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis):

Possible link to psychological disorders

The toxoplasmosis parasite may also trigger the development of schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, Parkinson’s Disease, Tourette’s syndrome and attention deficit disorders. The University of Leeds’ Faculty of Biological Sciences has shown a statistical link between toxoplasmosis infections and incidences of schizophrenia. Research finds that a person with schizophrenia is more likely to have toxoplasmosis than the general population.[6] The parasite produces an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase which may contribute to the development of these psychological disorders by affecting the production of dopamine. These changes in the chemistry of the brain can significantly affect behaviour. Well documented is dopamine’s role in mood, sociability, attention, and motivation and sleep patterns. Schizophrenia has long been associated with dopamine, which is the target of all currently available schizophrenia drugs. Research is ongoing to confirm whether or not there is a causal link, which is proving difficult because there are many factors involved. Health risks of toxoplasmosis include occasional fatalities.[7]


So to just deny that mental illnesses cannot be genetic (which, would indeed include chemistry - if the body doesn't produce enough of this or that), is silly IMO.

But really, some people want to argue the belief of free will overriding all genetic make up, i just don't see that as "fact".

But i'm not going to argue on it. I'm pretty open to research and have seen things first hand with how mental illnesses are more prevalent in families where there's been a history of such things.

Just like heart disease, cancer, etc. You can have a greater susceptibility due by genetics alone.

That's it, that's that.

You are citing a parasite as proof of genetics?! WTF!? An actual outside influence is not the same as genetic cause of a condition. My god are people so desperate to have a "condition" that all logic has flown out the window?

alkemical
06-22-2009, 12:47 PM
I have provided facts. My argument is valid. I can't(AGAIN FOR THE SLOWER CHILDREN) prove a negative.

The burden of proof is on those who believe this garbage.

You need to convince, not me.

I have provided a direct quote form the APA PROVING that there is no evidence supporting that depression is biological.

They diagnose you using question and answers....

i'll repeat that- QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS!

When you get diagnosed with cancer, does that doctor diagnose you based on how you answer questions, or does he do a biopsy?

This is the crucial point that can not be ignored.

How many here with a depression diagnosis have received a spinal tap or blood test?


Funny how you dismiss studies that focus on chemistry, eh. Seems those "facts" are dismissed by you. You are using circular logic. Have fun with your own paradox.

alkemical
06-22-2009, 12:48 PM
You are citing a parasite as proof of genetics?! WTF!? An actual outside influence is not the same as genetic cause of a condition. My god are people so desperate to have a "condition" that all logic has flown out the window?


Uhm, it was using to illustrate chemistry. Try to keep up.

Thanks,

Mgmt.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 12:52 PM
once again for those who missed it.

ADHD doesn't exist. It's really just a "PC" euphemism for stupid.

Yes.

I'm sorry, I really am. You people just aren't as smart as the rest of us. That's why you can't concentrate on even the simplest of tasks. You're just not bright enough.
In the old days we would have put a dunce cap on you and made you sit in the corner, or maybe tied a rope around your waste and have you run in a circle yelling, "I'm special, I'm special!".

As for depression, you're the ones who have average intelligence but are too lazy and cowardly to deal with life. So you suckle up to the teat of the drug companies to have an excuse to lay in bed and do nothing because you are too "depressed". I mean modern life here in America is sooo overwhelming. If I had a nice car, home, and job (afterall most people who suffer from "depression" are those making above the median income) and creature comforts galore I'd be depressed too!

OABB
06-22-2009, 12:54 PM
You are citing a parasite as proof of genetics?! WTF!? An actual outside influence is not the same as genetic cause of a condition. My god are people so desperate to have a "condition" that all logic has flown out the window?

I really think so....It is actually kind of sad in a way. It's right there in front of them. They could overcome these "supposed" obstacles and have a much better quality of life, but they prefer the excuse.

Even when it is right in front of them they can't seem to see it. It's a confused muddled mess.


I have, like every human that has ever taken a breath ever, had "bouts" of depression. Of course, I didn't like feeling that way, so I would deal with what was making me sad. Maybe it was a lame job or a break up, but whatever it was I would sit depressed for ever until I was able to emotionally move on.

If I thought it was genetic or biological in any way, than there would never be a way out. I would be stuck with a "bad brain" and no matter what I tried I would always feel like ****.


That would make me even more depressed. I would probably think about ending it.

The good news is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THIS so in all likelihood I am just depressed because my life sucks. well now, I can change my life and there is hope.

Why cling to this desperate bull**** theory?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 12:59 PM
Uhm, it was using to illustrate chemistry. Try to keep up.

Thanks,

Mgmt.

Sorry my little intellectually challenged friend. It illustrates nothing. They are not connected in any way. Chemistry caused by an outside organism is not the same as chemistry supposedly caused by genetics.

By your logic, the adrenaline caused by being stabbed with a knife illustrates the same chemistry as a body that produces too much adrenaline from a glandular problem.

Excellent! Socrates would be proud. You sir go to the head of the class, where a dunce cap will be waiting for you.

OABB
06-22-2009, 01:04 PM
Funny how you dismiss studies that focus on chemistry, eh. Seems those "facts" are dismissed by you. You are using circular logic. Have fun with your own paradox.

Here, take an Aderral and listen up....


I never dismissed science that was supported by fact.

I dismiss theory that is NOT supported by fact.

SO, when I say there IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT DEPRESSION IS CAUSED BY ANYTHING BIOLOGICAL OR CHEMICAL, your retort is to post a brain eating parasite to prove me wrong.


Of course if a worm eats your brain you would,quite possibly,go bat**** crazy, HOWEVER THIS WORM CAN BE SPOTTED WITH A BLOOD TEST AND CURED WITH MEDICINE.

DO YOU SEE THE BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE THERE?


go back and read my direct quote from the APA where they say it better than I do.


AMES, you are depressed because of something that HAPPENED, like, I don't know, what would cause that? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Let me comb through this thread and see if there was anything mentioned by you that would be depressing....hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm,


it is not a chemical or worm my friend, it's real life suckage.

OABB
06-22-2009, 01:06 PM
Sorry my little intellectually challenged friend. It illustrates nothing. They are not connected in any way. Chemistry caused by an outside organism is not the same as chemistry supposedly caused by genetics.

By your logic, the adrenaline caused by being stabbed with a knife illustrates the same chemistry as a body that produces too much adrenaline from a glandular problem.

Excellent! Socrates would be proud. You sir go to the head of the class, where a dunce cap will be waiting for you.

EXACTLY!!!!! I think maybe a worm is eating his logical brain.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 01:09 PM
That reminds me of Star Trek in the Wrath of Khan with those worms that crawled in Chekov's ear and made him all crazy. Wow, See?! I was wrong it is a genetic, chemical, disease that causes all this craziness!

alkemical
06-22-2009, 01:19 PM
Sorry my little intellectually challenged friend. It illustrates nothing. They are not connected in any way. Chemistry caused by an outside organism is not the same as chemistry supposedly caused by genetics.

By your logic, the adrenaline caused by being stabbed with a knife illustrates the same chemistry as a body that produces too much adrenaline from a glandular problem.

Excellent! Socrates would be proud. You sir go to the head of the class, where a dunce cap will be waiting for you.

It doesn't matter - you guys have your mind made up and no matter what proof or data backs it up - you'll dismiss it.

I was illustrating how chemistry can play a part. I cite seratonin levels, you guys don't like that answer - you guys don't want any answer that doesn't support your POV.

But hey, resort to ad-hominem attacks - it's the last resort of the desperate.

alkemical
06-22-2009, 01:21 PM
Here, take an Aderral and listen up....


I never dismissed science that was supported by fact.

I dismiss theory that is NOT supported by fact.

SO, when I say there IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT DEPRESSION IS CAUSED BY ANYTHING BIOLOGICAL OR CHEMICAL, your retort is to post a brain eating parasite to prove me wrong.


Of course if a worm eats your brain you would,quite possibly,go bat**** crazy, HOWEVER THIS WORM CAN BE SPOTTED WITH A BLOOD TEST AND CURED WITH MEDICINE.

DO YOU SEE THE BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE THERE?


go back and read my direct quote from the APA where they say it better than I do.


AMES, you are depressed because of something that HAPPENED, like, I don't know, what would cause that? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Let me comb through this thread and see if there was anything mentioned by you that would be depressing....hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm,


it is not a chemical or worm my friend, it's real life suckage.



You obviously have very little reading comprehension and you also do not know me or how i function. This again proves how very little you are actually objective towards fact.

But hey, go find data that supports you and keep ignoring things you don't. It's only human nature.

TheDave
06-22-2009, 01:29 PM
You obviously have very little reading comprehension and you also do not know me or how i function. This again proves how very little you are actually objective towards fact.

But hey, go find data that supports you and keep ignoring things you don't. It's only human nature.

I gave up arguing science on this board awhile ago...

It makes survivor look like a productive use of time. ;D

alkemical
06-22-2009, 01:44 PM
I gave up arguing science on this board awhile ago...

It makes survivor look like a productive use of time. ;D

No ****.

I'm done with this thread. There was a guy named Robert Anton Wilson and he said this about humans and objectivity:

(paraphrased)

Tesla and Edison both won awards for their contributions to their inventions, but neither would acknowledge the other and they would not share a stage.


I'm pretty open to everything - but in the case of humans and psycological conditions - most things are not an either/or answer. It is a synergy effect between genetics, environment, biochemistry (maybe you got some funky bacteria in your body that effects you differently).

Some people are able to "work" on different levels than others. Some people aren't able to break out of things. I dated a girl who has a bi-polar type personality - and it stems from a few things that ARE environment related: Sex abuse & a parents divorce. She hasn't been able to see her way out of it, and she's not able to break out of it. She's medicated and i know this girl, it's the best thing for her. She's able to be a good mom, she's able to control her behaviours when she's medicated. when she's not, it's wild mood swings and they are unpredictable.

Then you have my dad's side of the family that most of my aunts and uncles are schizophrenic or have severe bi-polar disorders.

Genetics play a much bigger part than i first realized when i was able to conquer my brain (to an extent). But it's interesting on the research that shows you make your decisions before you think you do, and that you then "ration" your way to the thing you were going to do.

I find it fascinating and always am interested. But as far as i was able to go - i realized, again - how much genetics play a part in it. It's fascinating and i love following the research that comes out of the U of Penn with their consciousness project.

daysofcoleco
06-22-2009, 01:48 PM
wow I am amazed at how people here have no ability to reason correctly. They are saying they believe something. Then when someone with a brain says there is no actual proof this is so they say, "that's your theory". No, it's not theory. Don
t people understand that if they make a claim that something exists there is a burden of proof required? What the hell? Did everybody miss that day in grade school? Does no one understand fundamental logic?

So the guy here that is arguing fact is the lemming?

what does that make those of you who name call and provide no evidence?

Do you two realize that you are arguing with people that have admitted that they hate life and can't concentrate and have mush for brains?
I'm not saying to stop - it's so funny I'm killing myself (laughing - sorry suicide crew).

OABB
06-22-2009, 03:16 PM
I gave up arguing science on this board awhile ago...

It makes survivor look like a productive use of time. ;D

that's true....That's why it's best to state only facts and not theories.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Do you two realize that you are arguing with people that have admitted that they hate life and can't concentrate and have mush for brains?
I'm not saying to stop - it's so funny I'm killing myself (laughing - sorry suicide crew).

A voice of reason, a light in the darkness of pathetic self-involved people on this thread. Thanks for someone who can see the reality of what's going on here.

OABB
06-22-2009, 03:20 PM
It doesn't matter - you guys have your mind made up and no matter what proof or data backs it up - you'll dismiss it.

I was illustrating how chemistry can play a part. I cite seratonin levels, you guys don't like that answer - you guys don't want any answer that doesn't support your POV.

But hey, resort to ad-hominem attacks - it's the last resort of the desperate.

DUDE! you site a ****ing parasite! a real life ****ing Scientific example that makes sense!

than you argue how a theory is plausible....we respond by saying there is NO! evidence and than your brain melts.

just admit that you like the idea of the theory regardless of wether or not it holds up to logical scrutiny...at least than you are being honest.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 03:25 PM
It doesn't matter - you guys have your mind made up and no matter what proof or data backs it up - you'll dismiss it.

I was illustrating how chemistry can play a part. I cite seratonin levels, you guys don't like that answer - you guys don't want any answer that doesn't support your POV.

But hey, resort to ad-hominem attacks - it's the last resort of the desperate.

Once again seldom right and often wrong. Citing levels out of context is meaningless. Saying levels in your brain can fluctuate is obvious. But there is no proven connection that those levels cause....CAUSE...,depression. You can't seem to get you tiny little head around that. You really must let go of your desperate little boy clinging to the myth of "depression" as disease or genetic malady.

Just face it you are lazy and a coward just like all the other "depressed" people.

OABB
06-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Do you two realize that you are arguing with people that have admitted that they hate life and can't concentrate and have mush for brains?
I'm not saying to stop - it's so funny I'm killing myself (laughing - sorry suicide crew).



Yes, I do. I once argued with Lex about Kobe Bryant (you know the guy whose nickname is "The Closer")not being able to hit a big shot in a game for three days.

It was hysterical to the point of legend...


This thread is close on the logic scale.

It should be fun to come back to down the road.

I have actually argued with ames before...when he stated that a woman hitchiking through Turkey in a wedding dress was as brave as a soldier jumping on a live hand grenade to save his fellow soldiers...

OABB
06-22-2009, 03:27 PM
Once again seldom right and often wrong. Citing levels out of context is meaningless. Saying levels in your brain can fluctuate is obvious. But there is no proven connection that those levels cause....CAUSE...,depression. You can't seem to get you tiny little head around that. You really must let go of your desperate little boy clinging to the myth of "depression" as disease or genetic malady.

Just face it you are lazy and a coward just like all the other "depressed" people.

THIS.


END THREAD.


Don't make me put "end thread" in big bold letters, cause I totally will!

TheDave
06-22-2009, 03:47 PM
that's true....That's why it's best to state only facts and not theories.

Yeah, problem is when you take away scientific theory... there is very little left to talk about. Hell, 80% of chemistry goes away without those pesky "theories".


Having said that, thanks for reminding me why I stay out of these discussions.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 04:26 PM
Depression.......I want it.....I want it.......I want it......waaaaaaaaaa

OABB
06-22-2009, 04:27 PM
Yeah, problem is when you take away scientific theory... there is very little left to talk about. Hell, 80% of chemistry goes away without those pesky "theories".


Having said that, thanks for reminding me why I stay out of these discussions.

as long as you state that it is only a theory there is lots to talk about....However when you argue theory as a fact, you're gonna get embarrassed.

TheDave
06-22-2009, 04:46 PM
as long as you state that it is only a theory there is lots to talk about....However when you argue theory as a fact, you're gonna get embarrassed.

speaking of embarrasment... you may want to look up what scientific theory actually is.

Hint:It is significantly more than you think it is. :thumbs:

OABB
06-22-2009, 04:56 PM
speaking of embarrasment... you may want to look up what scientific theory actually is.

Hint:It is significantly more than you think it is. :thumbs:

yeah, I just looked it up. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be embarrassed.

Nowhere did it say that theory, without ANY evidence, should be taken considerably more serious than let's say, theory WITH supporting evidence.

Maybe I missed something. PLease explain how I should be embarrassed by anything I have said in this thread.

I will be more than happy to concede a point if you supply evidence to support your theory.

You see, evidence is the key component here....

So, please specify.





step one: form a hypothesis( TheDave is a moron)

Step two: test the hyothesis (ask TheDave for specific examples}

step three:collect the data.(I'm waiting)

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 04:59 PM
speaking of embarrasment... you may want to look up what scientific theory actually is.

Hint:It is significantly more than you think it is. :thumbs:

'All of them make their water muddy that it may seem deep.' - Nietzsche

TheDave
06-22-2009, 05:14 PM
yeah, I just looked it up. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be embarrassed.

Nowhere did it say that theory, without ANY evidence, should be taken considerably more serious than let's say, theory WITH supporting evidence.

Maybe I missed something. PLease explain how I should be embarrassed by anything I have said in this thread.

I will be more than happy to concede a point if you supply evidence to support your theory.

You see, evidence is the key component here....

So, please specify.





step one: form a hypothesis( TheDave is a moron)

Step two: test the hyothesis (ask TheDave for specific examples}

step three:collect the data.(I'm waiting)


Cute... can't imagine why everyone else left this thread.

Have fun :wave:

OABB
06-22-2009, 05:18 PM
Cute... can't imagine why everyone else left this thread.

Have fun :wave:

My hypothesis is now a full fledged theory!


and they didn't leave, they retreated.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Cute... can't imagine why everyone else left this thread.

Have fun :wave:

How cute a little animated smiley face. Just like a 10 year girl would use. Ohhhh, soooooo cute. That explains you reasoning from the Hello Kitty Adventure Logic series.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:21 PM
yeah, I just looked it up. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be embarrassed.

Nowhere did it say that theory, without ANY evidence, should be taken considerably more serious than let's say, theory WITH supporting evidence.

Maybe I missed something. PLease explain how I should be embarrassed by anything I have said in this thread.

I will be more than happy to concede a point if you supply evidence to support your theory.

You see, evidence is the key component here....

So, please specify.





step one: form a hypothesis( TheDave is a moron)

Step two: test the hyothesis (ask TheDave for specific examples}

step three:collect the data.(I'm waiting)

Don't wait for an answer. These people are so devoid of intelligence that should the novel occurrence of a thought exhibit itself in their tiny brains it would surely die from loneliness and exposure to the barren wasteland of the inner spaces of their heads.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:22 PM
My hypothesis is now a full fledged theory!


and they didn't leave, they retreated.

They were routed from the field of battle.

mr007
06-22-2009, 05:27 PM
Don't wait for an answer. These people are so devoid of intelligence that should the novel occurrence of a thought exhibit itself in their tiny brains it would surely die from loneliness and exposure to the barren wasteland of the inner spaces of their heads.

Yeah, the world used to be flat too.

Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence.

Pretty sure anyone who maintains a die-hard, one way, this is how it is and it cannot possibly be any different and if you think so you're an idiot attitude is the one who lacks intelligence.

I'm not actually supporting either side of the story, I think there's room for both answers honestly but I'm not going to sit there and pass judgement on someone because my reasoning differs from theirs.

OABB
06-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Yeah, the world used to be flat too.

Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence.

o.k....than what does that make them?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:42 PM
Yeah, the world used to be flat too.

Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence.

Pretty sure anyone who maintains a die-hard, one way, this is how it is and it cannot possibly be any different and if you think so you're an idiot attitude is the one who lacks intelligence.

I'm not actually supporting either side of the story, I think there's room for both answers honestly but I'm not going to sit there and pass judgement on someone because my reasoning differs from theirs.

You should not be allowed to have children. Your defective "stupid" genes should not be allowed to pass on.

"Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence. "

Yes actually it does.

OABB
06-22-2009, 05:43 PM
You should not be allowed to have children. Your defective "stupid" genes should not be allowed to pass on.

"Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence. "

Yes actually it does.

get out of my head!

mr007
06-22-2009, 05:45 PM
You are both utterly retarded, it's like attempting to have an intelligent conversation with someone in a coma. Keep sucking each other off though ROFL!

OABB
06-22-2009, 05:50 PM
You are both utterly retarded.

no...utterly retarded would be arguing against fact, and than when cornered saying something like, oh, I don't know.....maybe this: Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence.

Again, If you want to believe that you have some brain disorder than go ahead, I'm starting to believe you!

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:50 PM
The lizard man of Borneo DOES exist! Just because there is no evidence to support his existence doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Scientific proof of fact is your theory! Why can't you understand that?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:51 PM
Why! Why ! Why! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy waaaaaaaaaaaa

mr007
06-22-2009, 05:51 PM
no...utterly retarded would be saying something like, oh, I don't know.....maybe this:


Just because someone believes something exists that does not have concrete evidence behind it does not make that person devoid of intelligence.

Are you freakin' stupid? Every discovery and technological advance in society is based off of something that doesn't have concrete evidence you freakin' douche.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:52 PM
Lizard Man of Borneo take me away, I'm feeling the sickness of my depression. Only you truly understand my sickness.

OABB
06-22-2009, 06:05 PM
Are you freakin' stupid? Every discovery and technological advance in society is based off of something that doesn't have concrete evidence you freakin' douche.

This is going to be my new sig....can we get them back? This is the greatest single post of all time.

what you meant to say was every single advancement actually SHOWED CONCRETE EVIDENCE.... you forgot to mention that eventually there was evdence to support it. re-read your post, yes you actually posted that "Every discovery and technological advance in society is based off of something that doesn't have concrete evidence."

yes..you said that...


You see, you are using the argument "IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN....YET", whereas I am using the argument, "it is not proven, period".

You see, adding the "yet" shows an obvious personal bias and need for facts to be shelved.

You see, I'm not arguing the world is flat here, I am THE ONE SAYING IT IS ROUND!

I have supplied evidence, made my case and have been more than clear. Footsteps and Sakuraba and other's have stated their cases as well.

They are well thought out,

where as the "pro" brain damage crowed has supplied a study FUNDED by the drug company, a ****ING WORM eating a brain and mindless insults.


It would seem to any reasonable person that there is not enough evidence to support the biological theory of depression or ADD, and that anyone who would argue for it has some other personal reasons for believing it.

If you want me to tell you that you have a biological disorder that affects your ability to concentrate, than I will....It's called stupidity.

mr007
06-22-2009, 06:17 PM
you forgot to mention that eventually there was evdence to support it.

This is pretty much the only thing I read in your illiterate ramble.

For a second, let's take this past the ADD argument, which I could give 2 ****s about as the conversation has degraded about as far as it can (thanks).

My whole point is I think it's pretty silly to just write off anyone for the simple reason that they don't have concrete evidence to support whatever they are believing.

If you always wait for concrete evidence before having an open mind about something possibly being true, you act like an ass to anyone who expresses a difference of opinion, regardless of if their idea has imperical evidence behind it. You just wait for the no-**** evidence and then you're like ok wow it is true, but I was RIGHT before since there was no EVIDENCE before!!!

Kinda hard to maintain any sort of good conversation with anyone when you're always right about everything. Hope it gets you far :thumbs:

OABB
06-22-2009, 06:28 PM
This is pretty much the only thing I read in your illiterate ramble.

For a second, let's take this past the ADD argument, which I could give 2 ****s about as the conversation has degraded about as far as it can (thanks).

My whole point is I think it's pretty silly to just write off anyone for the simple reason that they don't have concrete evidence to support whatever they are believing.

If you always wait for concrete evidence before having an open mind about something possibly being true, you act like an ass to anyone who expresses a difference of opinion, regardless of if their idea has imperical evidence behind it. You just wait for the no-**** evidence and then you're like ok wow it is true, but I was RIGHT before since there was no EVIDENCE before!!!

Kinda hard to maintain any sort of good conversation with anyone when you're always right about everything. Hope it gets you far :thumbs:

Actually my friends and I get along well, but that's because they are reasonable people who believe that a theory without and evidence, is just that- a meaningless theory.

so they wouldn't argue endlessly with someone who is supplying actual fact.

of course if they did, than they would be a moron and not my friend anyways.

Again, what you really are saying is that Santa Clause exists. I could tell you that that was your dad who was drunk and passed out under the tree, and even show you a photo of him changing into the santa outfit and you would still say that Santa is real and that I am just being close-minded.

You would say I have no proof that Santa doesn't exist and show me a study supplied by the pro Santa lobby to prove that he does.

You would also site the countless movies and stories about Santa as proof. When i repeated that Santa isn't real because it is impossible for one man, tied to a group of flying reindeer to travel to every good christian kids bedroom because he would have to be able to fly faster than the speed of light.....

and you would Still argue that just because I never met Santa doesn't mean that he doesn't exist.

I had an open mind about Santa until I was about 7 years old....how long will you have an open mind about the biological issue before you realize that is your father under the tree?

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Actually my friends and I get along well, but that's because they are reasonable people who believe that a theory without and evidence, is just that- a meaningless theory.

so they wouldn't argue endlessly with someone who is supplying actual fact.

of course if they did, than they would be a moron and not my friend anyways.

Again, what you really are saying is that Santa Clause exists. I could tell you that that was your dad who was drunk and passed out under the tree, and even show you a photo of him changing into the santa outfit and you would still say that Santa is real and that I am just being close-minded.

You would say I have no proof that Santa doesn't exist and show me a study supplied by the pro Santa lobby to prove that he does.

You would also site the countless movies and stories about Santa as proof. When i repeated that Santa isn't real because it is impossible for one man, tied to a group of flying reindeer to travel to every good christian kids bedroom because he would have to be able to fly faster than the speed of light.....

and you would Still argue that just because I never met Santa doesn't mean that he doesn't exist.

I had an open mind about Santa until I was about 7 years old....how long will you have an open mind about the biological issue before you realize that is your father under the tree?

Well Santa, yeah we all know he's fake.....but The Lizard Man of Borneo...
That guy totally exists. You wait. I don't care if 90% of the studies in the last 50 years proved he didn't exist. I don't care if believing in him makes me take drugs that DO harm me. I don't care! Believing takes me away from my responsibilities to myself and others, and damn if that isn't grand!

daysofcoleco
06-22-2009, 07:12 PM
where as the "pro" brain damage crowed has supplied a study FUNDED by the drug company, a ****ING WORM eating a brain and mindless insults.

There was also the example of the father whose 3 year old couldn't read a book and he figured the kid was abnormal. That still makes me laugh. Poor kid.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 07:17 PM
There was also the example of the father whose 3 year old couldn't read a book and he figured the kid was abnormal. That still makes me laugh. Poor kid.

Yeah he probably found out through his guatemalan maid.

OABB
06-22-2009, 07:17 PM
There was also the example of the father whose 3 year old couldn't read a book and he figured the kid was abnormal. That still makes me laugh. Poor kid.

Did you see the south park episode about this? It's hilarious.

The diagnosis for ADD is a doctor reading the entire Great GAtsby novel in one sitting and than quizzing the kids about the kind of car driven in chapter 4...If they couldn't answer it they had ADD.


Odd that mr007 has a South Park avatar, If only he knew that they were mindless idiots that didn't have open minds.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 07:19 PM
Did you see the south park episode about this? It's hilarious.

The diagnosis for ADD is a doctor reading the entire Great GAtsby novel in one sitting and than quizzing the kids about the kind of car driven in chapter 4...If they couldn't answer it they had ADD.


Odd that mr007 has a South Park avatar, If only he knew that they were mindless idiots that didn't have open minds.

Ha ha, that was a great episode.

footstepsfrom#27
06-22-2009, 09:12 PM
Most lay discussions of ADD/ADHD involve vague references to "paying attention" or "hyperactive children", but few people discussing this "disorder" actually know what diagnostic symptoms are used to identify behavior as that which the DSM-IV classifies as ADD/ADHD. Not knowing this puts you at a severe disadvantage if you're making a decision about your child. Here is a link that lists the diagnostic criteria used by doctors to make this diagnosis:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/attention_deficit_disorder.htm

ADD/ADHD "symtoms" corespond to qualities known to result from personal temperment that also produce the same identifiable behaviors. You should know this before you even attempt to have this discussion..check the link below:

http://borntoexplore.org/DSM.htm

A few words of advice if you're dealing with a school official telling you your child has ADD/ADHD and needs medication.

1) NEVER allow your child to be evaluated or tested by school psychologists or other diagnosticians for any kind of mental disorder. They have no legal right to do so without your permission. DO NOT give it to them under any circumstances. Schools will routinely attempt to intimidate parents into believing they have this right, but if they did they wouldn't be asking you to sign anything. If pushed, tell them they'll be hearing from your lawyer. NEVER sign anything giving permission, reguardless of the reason. If your divorced, make sure you have this discussion with the child's other parent so they don't inadvertantly sign a permission. If you've already signed one, you can rescind it.

2) NEVER allow a non-medical doctor to tell you what is "wrong" with your child. You would accept a teacher's opinion on any other medical issue, so don't do so with this with ADD either.

3) Know the actual basis of ADD/ADHD diagnostics instead of just what you've read about "studies". Check these links for the DSM-IV coding and diagnostics for all four types of this suposed disorder:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/attention_deficit_disorder.htm

Three diagnostic criteria are of immediate relevance if you're told your child has so-called ADD/ADHD and can be used to defeat any preliminary attempt to force you to medicate your child. They are as follows:


Behaviors identified as ADD/ADHD must be present by age 7.
Behaviors identified as ADD/ADHD must be present for at least 6 consecutive months.
Behaviors identifed as ADD/ADHD must be present in at least two different social settings (school and home).

When told your child has ADD by a school official, ask how they know. Generally, most of the time they'll offer only vague references to fidgety behavior, etc...but if they tell you something more specific related to the diagnostics, use any or all of the above three things to dispute their assertion and answer accordingly...

1) "My child's been in school less than 6 months in the current school year so according to the diagnostic criteria he/she can't be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD."

2) "My child never acts this way at home, only here at school, and since behavior has to be present in two or more environments, this cannot be ADD."

3) "My child never acted this way before age 7 so it can't be diagnosed as ADD."

Showing school principles, teachers, diagnosticians, etc...that you know what you're talking about will stop 95% of attempts to force you to put your kids on medications. In rare cases, schools have conspired with child welfare, social services and CPS to force medications. You should know they have financial reasons for doing so. In that case you'll need a lawyer, preferably one who has represented a parent on this issue in the past. One word of special caution...if you are the parent of a black child, especially a boy...you are up to 7 times more likely to have the school tell you your child is ADD and needs medication. If this happens to you, let them know you consider it a race discrimination issue and if they pursue it they'll be sued. 99% of school administrators do not want to deal with people willing to make this kind of public issue or go to the courts. Refuse to back off and in almost every case they will blink first.

mr007
06-22-2009, 09:38 PM
Did you see the south park episode about this? It's hilarious.

The diagnosis for ADD is a doctor reading the entire Great GAtsby novel in one sitting and than quizzing the kids about the kind of car driven in chapter 4...If they couldn't answer it they had ADD.


Odd that mr007 has a South Park avatar, If only he knew that they were mindless idiots that didn't have open minds.

I haven't made a single post that I state I believe anything at all about ADD being a neurological disorder. I agree that ADD/ADHD is completely over-diagnosed and I also agree that it is most likely cause by one's environment.

I personally believe that the condition itself exists and that your brain plays a big part in it, but I also believe it's something that was probably inherited through a person's interactions while growing up through their life. I have not gone into any sort of theory or science behind the matter in any of my posts.

I just don't like people (the several in this thread) that will go out and make an extreme effort to attack other people whose beliefs do not match your own, scientific evidence or not.

There is a method of communication and respect for people in general that you and others posting here simply do not adhere to. I do not take it personal, but it's pretty annoying when you talk down to others just because you believe you're right on this matter. I am not arguing any sort of science with you, I personally do not care one way or the other about the proof behind if ADHD is something that is a pre-existing biological condition and I have no interest in arguing it one way or the other.

So I'll say it again because I'm fairly certain you're just going to come back by attempting to prove your point again (which I seriously could care less). The whole reason I have even responded to anything you've said at all is because of the way you handle your side of the argument which is very poorly. It's great that you have a point, congratulations, quit belittling anyone who doesn't agree with you.

mr007
06-22-2009, 09:41 PM
Most lay discussions of ADD/ADHD involve vague references to "paying attention" or "hyperactive children", but few people discussing this "disorder" actually know what diagnostic symptoms are used to identify behavior as that which the DSM-IV classifies as ADD/ADHD. Not knowing this puts you at a severe disadvantage if you're making a decision about your child. Here is a link that lists the diagnostic criteria used by doctors to make this diagnosis:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/attention_deficit_disorder.htm

ADD/ADHD "symtoms" corespond to qualities known to result from personal temperment that also produce the same identifiable behaviors. You should know this before you even attempt to have this discussion..check the link below:

http://borntoexplore.org/DSM.htm

A few words of advice if you're dealing with a school official telling you your child has ADD/ADHD and needs medication.

1) NEVER allow your child to be evaluated or tested by school psychologists or other diagnosticians for any kind of mental disorder. They have no legal right to do so without your permission. DO NOT give it to them under any circumstances. Schools will routinely attempt to intimidate parents into believing they have this right, but if they did they wouldn't be asking you to sign anything. If pushed, tell them they'll be hearing from your lawyer. NEVER sign anything giving permission, reguardless of the reason. If your divorced, make sure you have this discussion with the child's other parent so they don't inadvertantly sign a permission. If you've already signed one, you can rescind it.

2) NEVER allow a non-medical doctor to tell you what is "wrong" with your child. You would accept a teacher's opinion on any other medical issue, so don't do so with this with ADD either.

3) Know the actual basis of ADD/ADHD diagnostics instead of just what you've read about "studies". Check these links for the DSM-IV coding and diagnostics for all four types of this suposed disorder:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/attention_deficit_disorder.htm

Three diagnostic criteria are of immediate relevance if you're told your child has so-called ADD/ADHD and can be used to defeat any preliminary attempt to force you to medicate your child. They are as follows:


Behaviors identified as ADD/ADHD must be present by age 7.
Behaviors identified as ADD/ADHD must be present for at least 6 consecutive months.
Behaviors identifed as ADD/ADHD must be present in at least two different social settings (school and home).

When told your child has ADD by a school official, ask how they know. Generally, most of the time they'll offer only vague references to fidgety behavior, etc...but if they tell you something more specific related to the diagnostics, use any or all of the above three things to dispute their assertion and answer accordingly...

1) "My child's been in school less than 6 months in the current school year so according to the diagnostic criteria he/she can't be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD."

2) "My child never acts this way at home, only here at school, and since behavior has to be present in two or more environments, this cannot be ADD."

3) "My child never acted this way before age 7 so it can't be diagnosed as ADD."

Showing school principles, teachers, diagnosticians, etc...that you know what you're talking about will stop 95% of attempts to force you to put your kids on medications. In rare cases, schools have conspired with child welfare, social services and CPS to force medications. You should know they have financial reasons for doing so. In that case you'll need a lawyer, preferably one who has represented a parent on this issue in the past. One word of special caution...if you are the parent of a black child, especially a boy...you are up to 7 times more likely to have the school tell you your child is ADD and needs medication. If this happens to you, let them know you consider it a race discrimination issue and if they pursue it they'll be sued. 99% of school administrators do not want to deal with people willing to make this kind of public issue or go to the courts. Refuse to back off and in almost every case they will blink first.

Thanks for providing sound and logical advice to the discussion.

daysofcoleco
06-22-2009, 09:45 PM
Wouldn't it just be easier to give the kid some pills and solve all your problems? I mean if I caught my kids with E or acid or something I'd ground them for life, but if the good people at Shire or Novartis want to ply them full of good wholesome treatments.... who am I to say no? I mean, whats in it for them?

Pseudofool
06-22-2009, 09:57 PM
Wow. The vulgarness of some posters in this thread is shocking.

What if we concede that laziness and depression are two sides of the same coin? Let's think through this: why are people lazy? Being lazy relatively sucks, you're unmotivated to do things that are good for you and the ones you love. I mean why would anyone in their right mind want to be that way? Sure there might be some benefit in not having to exert yourself, but that must be outweighed by the demoralizing choices not to improve one's own life. I mean, any critical examination of lazyness, leads one to suggest that there's just more going on here.

Now we might argue that source of laziness is cultural or familial as opposed to biological, but when the end result is that some people lack the "will" to do right by themselves and other people generally isn't the onus on people at large to help figure it out so we don't have mooches at the edges of our table waiting for scraps?

I can kind of speak from personal experience. I'm notorious lazy, and I'm beginning to think I'm depressed (something I'm ashamed to face), when I go to do the work I need to it feels as if the marrow in my bones quiver and I must get up and stop doing what I'm doing and move onto another task that yet again I won't finish because of some physical eerieness. (For those that care, I'm getting my PhD in some nonsense humanity; so much of what I need to do is self-paced). I've considered that I'm just a wuss and need to suck it up, but that doesn't really change the equation. I try to try harder. I've started jogging every day, eating right, and none of it leads me to face what I need to get done. This isn't a poor-me story, I'm freaking lucky to have the opportunities that I have, but rather I wish to demonstrate that the psychology of work ethic and it's collary, laziness, is very, very complicated. It takes courage for many to admit there might be something wrong with them, and to seek help, and really it takes a special kind of cruelty to condemn them for it.

daysofcoleco
06-22-2009, 10:13 PM
Wow. The vulgarness of some posters in this thread is shocking.

What if we concede that laziness and depression are two sides of the same coin? Let's think through this: why are people lazy? Being lazy relatively sucks, you're unmotivated to do things that are good for you and the ones you love. I mean why would anyone in their right mind want to be that way? Sure there might be some benefit and not having to exert yourself, but that must be outweighed by the demoralizing choices not to improve one's own life. I mean, any critical examination of lazyness, leads one to suggest that there's just more going on here.

Now we might argue that source of laziness is cultural or familial as opposed to biological, but when the end result is that some people lack the "will" to do right by themselves and other people generally isn't the onus on people at large to help figure it out so we don't have mooches at the edges of our table waiting for scraps?

I can kind of speak from personal experience. I'm notorious lazy, and I'm beginning to think I'm depressed (something I'm ashamed to face), when I go to do the work I need to it feels as if the marrow in my bones quiver and I must get up and stop doing what I'm doing and move onto another task that yet again I won't finish because of some physical eerieness. (For those that care, I'm getting my PhD in some nonsense humanity; so much of what I need to do is self-paced). I've considered that I'm just a wuss and need to suck it up, but that doesn't really change the equation. I try to try harder. I've started jogging every day, eating right, and none of it leads me to face what I need to get done. This isn't a poor-me story, I'm freaking lucky to have the opportunities that I have, but rather I wish to demonstrate that the psychology of work ethic and it's collary, laziness, is very, very complicated. It takes courage for many to admit there might be something wrong with them, and to seek help, and really it takes a special kind of cruelty to condemn them for it.

Could it be that you don't give a fk about what you are working on?
But anyways, I hear if you crushup tylenol3 and Adderal and snort it, you will never be lazy again. For the next 20 minutes.

footstepsfrom#27
06-22-2009, 10:37 PM
.It takes courage for many to admit there might be something wrong with them, and to seek help, and really it takes a special kind of cruelty to condemn them for it.
I agree. The focus here should be on the issues not the emotions of debate. I've found that internallizing the implications of this discussion often leads people to reject considerations they might otherwise be open to if issues of personal responsibility, perceptions of failure or accountability didn't hold so much potential to sway the mind.

Something I've told psych patients, chemically dependant people, and even those undergoing stress or struggling with thoughts of derpession over the years is this...what you feel is a product of what you think. What you think is a direct result of what you do. DO anything consistently over at least 30 days in the same disciplined manner, and you form the basis of a new habitual practice...something that becomes much easier to accomplish. Perform that habit over time, and your thinking will change, and ultimately along with it the emotions that attach themselves to that thinking will also change. In other words...act exactly opposite to what the mental health professionals tell you...observe:

Positive Behavior>>>Thinking>>>Feelings/Emotions>>>No Drugs

instead of...

Drugs>>>Emotions/Feelings>>>Thinking>>>Negative Behavior

Pseudofool
06-22-2009, 10:52 PM
Could it be that you don't give a fk about what you are working on?
But anyways, I hear if you crushup tylenol3 and Adderal and snort it, you will never be lazy again. For the next 20 minutes.
Sure, but what if one doesn't give fk about anything? Are they just specially existential?

The fact that drugs, even illicit, relieve laziness, speaks to the biochemical nature of laziness, doesn't it?

Pseudofool
06-22-2009, 10:58 PM
Something I've told psych patients, chemically dependant people, and even those undergoing stress or struggling with thoughts of derpession over the years is this...what you feel is a product of what you think. What you think is a direct result of what you do. DO anything consistently over at least 30 days in the same disciplined manner, and you form the basis of a new habitual practice...something that becomes much easier to accomplish. Perform that habit over time, and your thinking will change, and ultimately along with it the emotions that attach themselves to that thinking will also change. In other words...act exactly opposite to what the mental health professionals tell you...observe:
I appreciate the thoughtfulness, as always footsteps, but your oversimplifying even if there's truth in what you say. What we need to focus on is the 'spark' that might motivate people to change their behavior. The entire problem is that people, maybe including me, simply can't DO or TRY or whatever oddly Confucius-like term. How does one who might be depressed possible do anything for 30 straight days? You might as well ask Sisyphus to finally get that boulder to the top of the hill.

footstepsfrom#27
06-22-2009, 11:22 PM
I appreciate the thoughtfulness, as always footsteps, but your oversimplifying even if there's truth in what you say. What we need to focus on is the 'spark' that might motivate people to change their behavior. The entire problem is that people, maybe including me, simply can't DO or TRY or whatever oddly Confucius-like term. How does one who might be depressed possible do anything for 30 straight days? You might as well ask Sisyphus to finally get that boulder to the top of the hill.
Most people can do at least ONE thing for 30 days straight if they're motivated enough or perceive the reward as worthy or the need to avoid punishment. I'm pretty sure if I told you a $5 million jackpot awaited your month long endeavor you'd have no problem adjusting your actions for that long. Clearly you've already done so to some degree or you wouldn't be capable of PhD level academic work, even if you're not completely satisfied with your performance. I'm not saying someone can turn an entire life on a 30 day dime...but a single positive action reinforced over 30 days straight is enough of a start to provide that "spark" you speak of.

BTW...I did this myself years ago and beat years of depression accumulated in my teens and early 20's with just this approach. Despite a decade long struggle with it during that time, I've not returned to that in over 25 years, hence...I know this works. I've also seen it work for other people.

Pseudofool
06-22-2009, 11:35 PM
Most people can do at least ONE thing for 30 days straight if they're motivated enough or perceive the reward as worthy or the need to avoid punishment. I'm pretty sure if I told you a $5 million jackpot awaited your month long endeavor you'd have no problem adjusting your actions for that long. Clearly you've already done so to some degree or you wouldn't be capable of PhD level academic work, even if you're not completely satisfied with your performance. I'm not saying someone can turn an entire life on a 30 day dime...but a single positive action reinforced over 30 days straight is enough of a start to provide that "spark" you speak of.

BTW...I did this myself years ago and beat years of depression accumulated in my teens and early 20's with just this approach. Despite a decade long struggle with it during that time, I've not returned to that in over 25 years, hence...I know this works. I've also seen it work for other people.Yeah, I try, jogging every day with the dog. Watching my calories. Small things. But the big things like studying for my comprehensive exams and writing my dissertation, elude me, and it's not just a matter of getting to it. It's more complicated than that. And while your method worked for you and your friends, sample size should still slow your universilization. I think for a long time, my assets have compensated for my short comings, until they no longer do so; and I need to face facts, and go see a doctor, who might help--rather than trying to be buddha or will myself out of it, because that's been my method for years.

footstepsfrom#27
06-22-2009, 11:43 PM
And while your method worked for you and your friends, sample size should still slow your universilization.
Actually...not my friends, people in the mental health system. I've watched this over about a decade. I'm not sure how many people that is, but it's significant.
I think for a long time, my assets have compensated for my short comings, until they no longer do so; and I need to face facts, and go see a doctor, who might help--rather than trying to be buddha or will myself out of it, because that's been my method for years.
A doctor prescribing you drugs will compound your problem. This isn't willing yourself out of it, though I definitely understand why it seems that way. Think of it more like a gradual program of behavior modification...like eating an elephant; one bite at a time. Say you try targeting specific behaviors for just a few days, then later you go for longer, like 2 weeks, then a month...at some point it gets easier. Further down the line you achieve it with another behavior, then another...the whole process will probably take you 3 years or more...but for people I've seen do this, it works.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 01:08 AM
Wow. The vulgarness of some posters in this thread is shocking.

What if we concede that laziness and depression are two sides of the same coin? Let's think through this: why are people lazy? Being lazy relatively sucks, you're unmotivated to do things that are good for you and the ones you love. I mean why would anyone in their right mind want to be that way? Sure there might be some benefit in not having to exert yourself, but that must be outweighed by the demoralizing choices not to improve one's own life. I mean, any critical examination of lazyness, leads one to suggest that there's just more going on here.

Now we might argue that source of laziness is cultural or familial as opposed to biological, but when the end result is that some people lack the "will" to do right by themselves and other people generally isn't the onus on people at large to help figure it out so we don't have mooches at the edges of our table waiting for scraps?

I can kind of speak from personal experience. I'm notorious lazy, and I'm beginning to think I'm depressed (something I'm ashamed to face), when I go to do the work I need to it feels as if the marrow in my bones quiver and I must get up and stop doing what I'm doing and move onto another task that yet again I won't finish because of some physical eerieness. (For those that care, I'm getting my PhD in some nonsense humanity; so much of what I need to do is self-paced). I've considered that I'm just a wuss and need to suck it up, but that doesn't really change the equation. I try to try harder. I've started jogging every day, eating right, and none of it leads me to face what I need to get done. This isn't a poor-me story, I'm freaking lucky to have the opportunities that I have, but rather I wish to demonstrate that the psychology of work ethic and it's collary, laziness, is very, very complicated. It takes courage for many to admit there might be something wrong with them, and to seek help, and really it takes a special kind of cruelty to condemn them for it.


First off don't waste your time listening to the uneducated ramblings of Dumb & **** on this thread... There is plenty of science and countless studies behind the biochem people are talking about.

A few years ago my dad was diagnosed with Parkinsons disease. Because Of my Biochem background everyone in the family looked to me to do the research and work with the doctors on his condition. Unlike what the 2 morons and their colecovision friend are saying study after study has shown that minor alterations of your biochemistry especially chemicals that can pass through the blood/brain barrier can make significant changes in peoples lives. Serotonin, noradrenaline and Dopamine (wether it's blood concentration levels or individual receptor sites) have all shown themselves to have a direct correlation to mood, drive, and a host of other neuro activities.

The best thing for you to do is talk to people that actually do this for a living. Start with your GP/internest first and if you don't get the answers you want ask for a referral to a licensed psychiatrist. There are a million different things that can effect your situation... diet, exercise, environmental toxins all play a roll on your biochemistry. A change in some, possibly all of these things can have a profound effect on your sense of well being... and for God's sake if a simple pill will help you to live a happier more fulfilling life then do it.

Good luck to you in your search...Life is too short to be miserable.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:59 AM
First off don't waste your time listening to the uneducated ramblings of Dumb & **** on this thread... There is plenty of science and countless studies behind the biochem people are talking about.

A few years ago my dad was diagnosed with Parkinsons disease. Because Of my Biochem background everyone in the family looked to me to do the research and work with the doctors on his condition. Unlike what the 2 morons and their colecovision friend are saying study after study has shown that minor alterations of your biochemistry especially chemicals that can pass through the blood/brain barrier can make significant changes in peoples lives. Serotonin, noradrenaline and Dopamine (wether it's blood concentration levels or individual receptor sites) have all shown themselves to have a direct correlation to mood, drive, and a host of other neuro activities.

The best thing for you to do is talk to people that actually do this for a living. Start with your GP/internest first and if you don't get the answers you want ask for a referral to a licensed psychiatrist. There are a million different things that can effect your situation... diet, exercise, environmental toxins all play a roll on your biochemistry. A change in some, possibly all of these things can have a profound effect on your sense of well being... and for God's sake if a simple pill will help you to live a happier more fulfilling life then do it.

Good luck to you in your search...Life is too short to be miserable.


wow. Just wow. WE never said mood could not be effected by brain chemistry, or vise versa..... the truth is that is a oung science and the data simply isn't there.


what we said was that there is no evidence showing that brain chemistry CAUSES depression.


are you really this stupid?

seriously?

OABB
06-23-2009, 11:02 AM
I appreciate the thoughtfulness, as always footsteps, but your oversimplifying even if there's truth in what you say. What we need to focus on is the 'spark' that might motivate people to change their behavior. The entire problem is that people, maybe including me, simply can't DO or TRY or whatever oddly Confucius-like term. How does one who might be depressed possible do anything for 30 straight days? You might as well ask Sisyphus to finally get that boulder to the top of the hill.

they can grow a pair.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 11:09 AM
wow. Just wow. WE never said mood could not be effected by brain chemistry, or vise versa..... the truth is that is a oung science and the data simply isn't there.


what we said was that there is no evidence showing that brain chemistry CAUSES depression.


are you really this stupid?

seriously?

This ought to be good...

Whats the difference between depression and mood?



Like I said Psuedo... Ignore Dumb & ****.