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sakuraba
06-23-2009, 10:16 AM
I appreciate the thoughtfulness, as always footsteps, but your oversimplifying even if there's truth in what you say. What we need to focus on is the 'spark' that might motivate people to change their behavior. The entire problem is that people, maybe including me, simply can't DO or TRY or whatever oddly Confucius-like term. How does one who might be depressed possible do anything for 30 straight days? You might as well ask Sisyphus to finally get that boulder to the top of the hill.

Often people will say "can't". But shouldn't they really say won't? After all if you were put in a situation where a finger would be cut off your hand everyday you didn't jog I think you would have no problem jogging. If this was something you had no control over you would end up with no fingers, just paws.

To say it isn't that simple, says nothing. Explain why it is more complicated. So many say "it isn't that simple", yet give no explanation of why it is complicated. The problem is that it is that simple.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:16 AM
This ought to be good...

Whats the difference between depression and mood?



Like I said Psuedo... Ignore Dumb & ****.

wow, Is this really Nick Nolte?

mood1  [mood] Show IPA
–noun
1. a state or quality of feeling at a particular time:



de⋅pres⋅sion  [di-presh-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. the act of depressing.
2. the state of being depressed.
3. a depressed or sunken place or part; an area lower than the surrounding surface.
4. sadness; gloom; dejection.
5. Psychiatry. a condition of general emotional dejection and withdrawal; sadness greater and more prolonged than that warranted by any objective reason. Compare clinical depression.

so...

mood just basically means a feeling, there is no judgement placed onto it.

Depression is feeling low, so to speak, because you are a loser who hates your life and you can't deal with it so you cling to psuedo sciences to give you an excuse because you are too much of a pussy to man up and deal.

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 10:21 AM
wow, Is this really Nick Nolte?

mood1  [mood] Show IPA
–noun
1. a state or quality of feeling at a particular time:



de⋅pres⋅sion  [di-presh-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. the act of depressing.
2. the state of being depressed.
3. a depressed or sunken place or part; an area lower than the surrounding surface.
4. sadness; gloom; dejection.
5. Psychiatry. a condition of general emotional dejection and withdrawal; sadness greater and more prolonged than that warranted by any objective reason. Compare clinical depression.

so...

mood just basically means a feeling, there is no judgement placed onto it.

Depression is feeling low, so to speak, because you are a loser who hates your life and you can't deal with it so you cling to psuedo sciences to give you an excuse because you are too much of a p***Y to man up and deal.

You are the Spartans at Thermopylae fighting a losing battle against the hordes of idiot Persians. These people are really just idiots. They have offered no facts, nothing, just pure emotion and distraction. It's like arguing with a twelve year old girl while she plays Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
These losers need these "ailments" soooooooooooooooo badly.

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 10:25 AM
Often people will say "can't". But shouldn't they really say won't? After all if you were put in a situation where a finger would be cut off your hand everyday you didn't jog I think you would have no problem jogging. If this was something you had no control over you would end up with no fingers, just paws.

To say it isn't that simple, says nothing. Explain why it is more complicated. So many say "it isn't that simple", yet give no explanation of why it is complicated. The problem is that it is that simple.

I do jog everyday, that doesn't take the way I feel when it comes to doing the work I need, or household chores, etc. (And coming up with hypothetical, violent situations seems narrowly immature, and impractical. If I know my finger won't actually be cut off, it's not really an incentive.) The way the mind works is extremely complex, if your looking for a satisfactory explanation on the message board, you'll being fool hardy.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:26 AM
You are the Spartans at Thermopylae fighting a losing battle against the hordes of idiot Persians. These people are really just idiots. They have offered no facts, nothing, just pure emotion and distraction. It's like arguing with a twelve year old girl while she plays Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
These losers need these "ailments" soooooooooooooooo badly.

it's true....I think it is time to let it go. I just feel sorry for people who are caught up in their girly feelings and can't deal. I feel that sometimes that "spark" they so desperately want is the actual cold hard truth...

I'll try one more time...

You have control over how you feel. You can pull yourself out of the swamp...



All you have to do is first realize that you are in control.


THE MOST DANGEROUS THING FOR ANYONE DEPRESSED IS TO FEEL LOST. BELIEVING YOU HAVE BRAIN WORMS IS THE SAME AS DEATH.

THERE IS HOPE! JUST CHANGE YOUR LIFE. YOUR HEAD IS TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT YOUR LIFE SUCKS! THAT'S WHY YOU ARE DEPRESSED!


come on.....it's so ****ing obvious. you all know I am right. deep down but your defenses are clinging.

CHANGE YOUR ****ING LIFE!

do things that don't bore you and you won't be lazy or ADD ridden or depressed!


come on, man up pussies!

jesus christ!

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 10:30 AM
I do jog everyday, that doesn't take the way I feel when it comes to doing the work I need, or household chores, etc. (And coming up with hypothetical, violent situations seems narrowly immature, and impractical. If I know my finger won't actually be cut off, it's not really an incentive.) The way the mind works is extremely complex, if your looking for a satisfactory explanation on the message board, you'll being fool hardy.

Oh my god! That explains it! You don't like doing chores, or things you don't like. Crap, everyone else does. You MUST have an exotic illness. And thanks for explaining why it is soooo complicated.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:34 AM
“It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere.”

Voltaire


and no, not Voltron, Voltaire

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 10:35 AM
people who are caught up in their girly feelings and can't deal. Ha ha, not only are you a moron, you're also a misogynist. The ladies must really love you guys, and I'm sure you make empathetic fathers as well. I think there's some kids who need bullying down the street, go get 'em guys!

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 10:36 AM
“It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere.”

Voltaire


and no, not Voltron, VoltaireYou don't even know the context in which that is said. He's talking about social revolution not psychology. How embarrassing for you.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:40 AM
You don't even know the context in which that is said. He's talking about social revolution not psychology. How embarrassing for you.

Why do you have the word Psuedo in your name?

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Why do you have the word Psuedo in your name?Do you read your posts before you click send, Candide? Like I said, you're an embarrassment.

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Ha ha, not only are you a moron, you're also a misogynist. The ladies must really love you guys, and I'm sure you make empathetic fathers as well. I think there's some kids who need bullying down the street, go get 'em guys!

So if he said you had manly feelings he would be a misanthrope? What's with the knee jerk reactionist thinking ? Again no logic. Just because someone says you are acting like a whiney girl doesn't mean they hate women. You really are a fool. Girls can whine, doesn't mean people hate them because they reference them. You have spent too much time watching The View.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:44 AM
Ha ha, not only are you a moron, you're also a misogynist. The ladies must really love you guys, and I'm sure you make empathetic fathers as well. I think there's some kids who need bullying down the street, go get 'em guys!

Actually, on second thought, even a twelve year old girl would call you a p***Y....


Whaaaah! I have to do chores! whaaaah! I'm so tired and sad! whaaah!


I would love to see you on the frontines of Iraq...


"Whaaah! This gun is too heavy! Why are they shooting at us? Oh my god, this M.R.E. tastes like ****....This camo is itching my mangina! WHaaah!"

"I'm so Depressed! I must have brainworm"


toughen up you p***Y.

Do your homework and quit whining!

If only you could hear yourself.

OABB
06-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Ha ha, not only are you a moron, you're also a misogynist. The ladies must really love you guys, and I'm sure you make empathetic fathers as well. I think there's some kids who need bullying down the street, go get 'em guys!

If I had a son that acted like you, I would cut off his balls and call him Tina to avoid the embarrassment.

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Do you read your posts before you click send, Candide? Like I said, you're an embarrassment.

Pseudo intellectualism is the best! Act now and for just $9.99 you too can be a pseudo intellectual fool! Impress your friends with your new found meaningless pedantry. And that's not all. You'll learn to affect an elitist condescending chuckle. With this package you'll fool almost everyone!

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Meet me by the slide after lunch, bitches. ::eyeroll::

TheDave
06-23-2009, 11:45 AM
Meet me by the slide after lunch, b****es. ::eyeroll::

Don't waste your time with these 2 idiots... Talk to the real experts in this field.

Like I said before... Good luck in your search.

daysofcoleco
06-23-2009, 11:56 AM
Meet me by the slide after lunch, b****es. ::eyeroll::

There you go! It didn't take you very long to find something to get you out of bed. Good old violence will do it every time.

OABB
06-23-2009, 01:14 PM
Don't waste your time with these 2 idiots... Talk to the real experts in this field.

Like I said before... Good luck in your search.

So the American Psychiatry Association are not experts?

and you are?

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:00 PM
So the American Psychiatry Association are not experts?

and you are?

Don't worry about it boss... let us "pussy's" talk our "psuedo-science".


I'm sure there are plenty of other psych based forums where you and your buddy can amaze those posters with your "knowledge"

OABB
06-23-2009, 02:18 PM
Don't worry about it boss... let us "p***Y's" talk our "psuedo-science".


I'm sure there are plenty of other psych based forums where you and your buddy can amaze those posters with your "knowledge"

The psych based forums can be found at imaweaklittle******.com if you are interested.

and just to be clear...you are more of an expert than the members of APA?

I just want to be clear.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:25 PM
The psych based forums can be found at imaweaklittle******.com if you are interested.


{Channeling sakuraba /ON}

Yeah!!!! dude it's like you are Zeus standing naked upon Mt Olympus laying waste to all those that oppose your most perfect ideals. Seriously man, just the image of you upon that mountain made me go rub one out in your honor.

These girly men who even think that there could ever be something wrong with their manliness should just look up to your greatness like I do.

I so want to have your children bro!!!

{Channeling sakuraba /OFF}



Just wanted to get that out of the way before he came running in here to congradulate you on your latest post.

OABB
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
{Channeling sakuraba /ON}

Yeah!!!! dude it's like you are Zues standing naked upon Mt Olympus laying waste to all those that oppose your most perfect ideals. Seriously man, just the image of you upon that mountain made me go rub one out in your honor.

These girly men who even think that there could ever be something wrong with their manlyness should just look up to your greatness like I do.

I so want to have your children bro!!!

{Channeling sakuraba /OFF}

It's about time you came around. Maybe the brainworm has passed away. hopefully you don't have any other magical ailments that don't really exist.


also, you are avoiding the question...

I promise I'll go away once you man up and answer it....

you are more of an expert about the effects of brain chemistry in mood disorders than the NIMH or APA?

yes or no?


just answer the question, and save your pathetic pussiness from consuming you.

Pseudofool
06-23-2009, 02:31 PM
What are your qualifications? Did you even go to college?

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
It's about time you came around. Maybe the brainworm has passed away. hopefully you don't have any other magical ailments that don't really exist.


also, you are avoiding the question...

I promise I'll go away once you man up and answer it....

you are more of an expert about the effects of brain chemistry in mood disorders than the NIMH or APA?

yes or no?


just answer the question, and save your pathetic pussiness from consuming you.

Fair enough, show me where they definitively state that depression and other mood disorders are not chemical in nature

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
{Channeling sakuraba /ON}

Yeah!!!! dude it's like you are Zeus standing naked upon Mt Olympus laying waste to all those that oppose your most perfect ideals. Seriously man, just the image of you upon that mountain made me go rub one out in your honor.

These girly men who even think that there could ever be something wrong with their manliness should just look up to your greatness like I do.

I so want to have your children bro!!!

{Channeling sakuraba /OFF}

Masturbatory fantasies and wanting to have a man's baby. So really are a woman. Well now that we all know that, your perspective makes more sense.



Just wanted to get that out of the way before he came running in here to congradulate you on your latest post.

Masturbatory fantasies and wanting to have a man's baby. So you really are a woman. Well now that we all know that, your perspective makes more sense.

OABB
06-23-2009, 02:35 PM
o.k., just so everyone knows what I'm dealing with.

Thedave asked me the difference between mood and depression.

I pasted the actual definition in which it not only showed them being two different things, but even went out of my way to explain the difference in a more pedestrian version so that he could understand.

and to recap mood is just a feeling and depression is a specific feeling.


this is what he wrote in my rep:

"depression is a mood disorder... nice try though"


you see, even when supplying fact, doing the research and pointing out where he is wrong, he calls me an idiot and writes that "depression is a mood disorder"......

He doesn't even see how he is deflecting, and how utterly stupid he is.

He may have some brainworm that makes him incapable of understanding basic, third grade level logic.

I am not surprised that so many whiny pussies have teamed up with this moron to accuse me of being stupid when I have done nothing more than provide FACTS.


What was it Voltaire said again?

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:36 PM
Masturbatory fantasies and wanting to have a man's baby. So you really are a woman. Well now that we all know that, your perspective makes more sense.

there he is... you better hurry and congratulate your buddy

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:39 PM
o.k., just so everyone knows what I'm dealing with.

Thedave asked me the difference between mood and depression.

I pasted the actual definition in which it not only showed them being two different things, but even went out of my way to explain the difference in a more pedestrian version so that he could understand.

and to recap mood is just a feeling and depression is a specific feeling.


this is what he wrote in my rep:

"depression is a mood disorder... nice try though"


you see, even when supplying fact, doing the research and pointing out where he is wrong, he calls me an idiot and writes that "depression is a mood disorder"......

He doesn't even see how he is deflecting, and how utterly stupid he is.

He may have some brainworm that makes him incapable of understanding basic, third grade level logic.

I am not surprised that so many whiny pussies have teamed up with this moron to accuse me of being stupid when I have done nothing more than provide FACTS.


What was it Voltaire said again?

So is depression a "mood disorder" or not?

You already admited that serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline effect ones mood... additionally we know that SSRI's aleviate depression. So again explain to us how depression and othe mood disorders are not chemical in nature.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 02:47 PM
So is depression a "mood disorder" or not?

You already admited that serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline effect ones mood... additionally we know that SSRI's aleviate depression. So again explain to us how depression and othe mood disorders are not chemical in nature.

Your welcome to try and answer this as well Sakuraba... surely you can do more than verbally jerk-off your buddy.

OABB
06-23-2009, 05:52 PM
So is depression a "mood disorder" or not?

You already admited that serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline effect ones mood... additionally we know that SSRI's aleviate depression. So again explain to us how depression and othe mood disorders are not chemical in nature.

Wow, so increase in suicidal Tendencies, mania, Tardive Disconesia(physical ticks) and homicidal tendencies are an alleviation of depression?

Did you know that when studies were done regarding the change in Serotonin levels(increase or decrease in levels) that they showed no effect on one's depression.

In fact, if you want, look up serotonin poisoning and see what happens when people **** with your brain based off of a theory that has minimal evidence.


You really don't know what you are talking about.

Did you know that the FDA requires only 2 positive trails to pass a drug? That means if out of 20 trials, if in 18 of those trials there were suicides, but in 2 trials some people "say" they felt better it can be passed?

Look up Tracy Johnson when you get a chance.

She was a healthy, non depressed participant in a trial for cymbalta who was found hanging in the Laboratory at Eli Lilly in Indianapolis.

Of course, it will be hard to find any news stories on this because it has been buried by the APA(yes the same dbags who actually stated my point as I have referenced numerous times) and big pharma as they say that industry secrets can be revealed if they submit all the information from a failed trial.


Why can't anyone see the misguided logic here.


I was raped by my uncle Lester, now I'm sad, it must be a worm in my brain....


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


I'm sorry you guys are sad, really I am.

But I am more sorry that you choose to repress uncle Lester's cock up your asses..


DEAL WITH IT!

sakuraba
06-23-2009, 05:57 PM
So is depression a "mood disorder" or not?

You already admited that serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline effect ones mood... additionally we know that SSRI's aleviate depression. So again explain to us how depression and othe mood disorders are not chemical in nature.

There is no limit to the stupidity on this site. Good god man you are religious in your zeal to protect the holy grail of "depression". Why such a desperate death grip on ignorance?

I have never said that SSRI alleviate depression. All the objective study, and literature says no. Thats an unequivocal NO. For your perusal you might want to see what the British Govt has to say about it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece

And like all the other neurologically challenged you are invited to actually provide some proof to support your hoped for disease. None of you has done so. A report from 1994 funded by Pfizer with inconclusive results is hardly worth mention.

So remove your chapped lips from the teat of your delusional forum friends and provide something. Unless of course you too depressed to actually move, in that case continue to suckle at the bloated breast of ignorance.

OABB
06-23-2009, 05:58 PM
So is depression a "mood disorder" or not?

You already admited that serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline effect ones mood... additionally we know that SSRI's aleviate depression. So again explain to us how depression and othe mood disorders are not chemical in nature.

Your stupidity requires multiple posts.....First off, how the NIMH decides to classify their B.S. drug pushing disorders is besides the point. IF depression is considered a mood disorder what does that even prove?

That it isn't the result of your Uncle Lester's veiny shaft pulsating in and out of your young anus?

If the word "MOOD" is mentioned that somehow makes all the facts disappear? What exactly are you getting at here?

Do you even know what you are saying anymore?


Just to get this clear, you have said as follows:


That you are more of an expert than the APA, that mood and depression are the same thing, than they aren't, that ssri's alleviate depression, and that I am an idiot....

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:12 PM
Wow, so increase in suicidal Tendencies, mania, Tardive Disconesia(physical ticks) and homicidal tendencies are an alleviation of depression?

Did you know that when studies were done regarding the change in Serotonin levels(increase or decrease in levels) that they showed no effect on one's depression.

In fact, if you want, look up serotonin poisoning and see what happens when people **** with your brain based off of a theory that has minimal evidence.


You really don't know what you are talking about.

Did you know that the FDA requires only 2 positive trails to pass a drug? That means if out of 20 trials, if in 18 of those trials there were suicides, but in 2 trials some people "say" they felt better it can be passed?

Look up Tracy Johnson when you get a chance.

She was a healthy, non depressed participant in a trial for cymbalta who was found hanging in the Laboratory at Eli Lilly in Indianapolis.

Of course, it will be hard to find any news stories on this because it has been buried by the APA(yes the same dbags who actually stated my point as I have referenced numerous times) and big pharma as they say that industry secrets can be revealed if they submit all the information from a failed trial.


Why can't anyone see the misguided logic here.


I was raped by my uncle Lester, now I'm sad, it must be a worm in my brain....


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


I'm sorry you guys are sad, really I am.

But I am more sorry that you choose to repress uncle Lester's cock up your asses..


DEAL WITH IT!

Blah, Blah, Blah... First, show the studies that show a proven statistical increase in suicides. To give you a head start here is a recent one that looked at several... http://psychiatry.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2005/309/1

As for the rest of your post is just you rambling on again and again. Now back to the point... once again show me where the NIMH or APA state that depression or other mood disorders are not chemicaly based.

This has been your stance... Prove it.

I'll wait...

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:26 PM
There is no limit to the stupidity on this site. Good god man you are religious in your zeal to protect the holy grail of "depression". Why such a desperate death grip on ignorance?

I have never said that SSRI alleviate depression. All the objective study, and literature says no. Thats an unequivocal NO. For your perusal you might want to see what the British Govt has to say about it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece

And like all the other neurologically challenged you are invited to actually provide some proof to support your hoped for disease. None of you has done so. A report from 1994 funded by Pfizer with inconclusive results is hardly worth mention.

So remove your chapped lips from the teat of your delusional forum friends and provide something. Unless of course you too depressed to actually move, in that case continue to suckle at the bloated breast of ignorance.

You may want to read the actual study...

Even in a study whose entire purpose was to undermine this class of drugs the conclusion states...

"Given these results, there seems little reason to prescribe anti-depressant medication to any but the most severely depressed patients, unless alternative treatments have failed to provide a benefit."

Now why would someone who thinks these drugs are useless and that depression is non existant still recomend their use to the "most severly depressed patients" or ones where alternatives have failed.

Sounds to me like someone who is against the over perscription of these drugs. Not quite the rediculous stance that you and your buddy are promoting.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Your stupidity requires multiple posts.....First off, how the NIMH decides to classify their B.S. drug pushing disorders is besides the point. IF depression is considered a mood disorder what does that even prove?

That it isn't the result of your Uncle Lester's veiny shaft pulsating in and out of your young anus?

If the word "MOOD" is mentioned that somehow makes all the facts disappear? What exactly are you getting at here?

Do you even know what you are saying anymore?


Just to get this clear, you have said as follows:


That you are more of an expert than the APA, that mood and depression are the same thing, than they aren't, that ssri's alleviate depression, and that I am an idiot....

First off lets try and stay somewhat civilized here... the incestual rape scenarios are beyond immature.

So which is it? Is the NIMH experts in this field like you stated earlier or just a bunch of quacks putting out their B.S. book?

Keep this in mind you yourself said that neurotransmitters (dopamine, Serotonin, and noradrenaline) played a part in ones mood. Well it just so happens that depression is defined as a mood disorder. Therefore these chemicals according to you play a role in depression.

You should really try to be more consistent.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
As for the non-existant research that links Depression to ones BioChem... Here are a few I found.


[/SIZE]Consistent evidence for a biological subtype of depression characterized by low CSF monoamine levels.
Acta Psychiatr Scand 1986 Jul;74(1):8-12
"Analysis of previously published CSF monoamine data has revealed statistical evidence for a biological subtype of depression, characterized by abnormally low CSF-5HIAA and CSF HVA. Using maximum likelihood gaussian mixture analysis we were able to resolve the empirical frequency distributions of both CSF HVA and CSF 5-HIAA into two component normal mixtures. Simultaneous analysis of both CSF 5-HIAA and CSF HVA revealed a two component bivariate normal mixture distribution in which 35% of the depressed patient sample were classified in the low subgroup. No evidence for mixture distributions was found in controls. Analysis of CSF MHPG revealed a single component normal distribution with virtually identical mean and variance in both patients and controls. These results are shown to be virtually identical to parallel analyses conducted on CSF monoamine data collected as part of the NIMH collaborative study on the psychobiology of depression study." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2429500&dopt=Abstract)


Asberg M, Thoren P, Traskman L, Bertilsson L, Ringberger V.
"Serotonin depression"--a biochemical subgroup within the affective disorders?
Science 1976 Feb 6;191(4226):478-80
"The distribution of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) concentrations in the cerebrospinal fluid of 68 depressed patients was bimodal. Twenty-nine percent of the patients were in the lower mode, with a concentration of 5-HIAA below 15 nanograms per milliliter. Although there were no differences in overall severity of depression between the two modes, there was a significant correlation between the concnetration of 5-HIAA and severity of depression in the lower, but not in the upper, mode. The finding suggests the existence of a biochemical subgroup of depressive disorder, characterized by a disturbance of serotonin turnover." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1246632&dopt=Abstract)


Heninger GR, Delgado PL, Charney DS.
The revised monoamine theory of depression: a modulatory role for monoamines, based on new findings from monoamine depletion experiments in humans.
Pharmacopsychiatry 1996 Jan;29(1):2-11
"The new hypothesis most consistent with this new data is that the monoamine systems are only modulating "other" brain neurobiologic systems which have a more primary role in depression. The modulatory or "antidepressant" function of the monoamine systems appears to be only necessary during drug induced recovery and the maintenance of recovery after a prior episode. These clinical studies point to the need for more fundamental research on the interaction of monoamine systems with other brain neurobiologic mechanisms relevant to depression." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=8852528&dopt=Abstract)


Pineyro, Graciela, Blier, Pierre
Autoregulation of Serotonin Neurons: Role in Antidepressant Drug Action
Pharmacol Rev 1999 51: 533-591 [Full Text] (http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/3/533)
Roy A.
CSF 5-HIAA correlates with neuroticism in depressed patients.
J Affect Disord 1999 Jan-Mar;52(1-3):247-9
"BACKGROUND: To examine for relationships between neurotransmitters and personality. METHOD: 27 depressed patients had cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) monoamine metabolites measured and completed the Eysenck Personality Questionnaire (EPQ). RESULT: CSF concentrations of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) correlated significantly with EPQ neuroticism scores. CONCLUSION: Central serotonin may play a role in neuroticism, a personality dimension predisposing to depression. LIMITATION: The positive correlation may partly reflect collinear relationships between both variables and anxiety/depression." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10357041&dopt=Abstract)


Nordin C.
Relationships between clinical symptoms and monoamine metabolite concentrations in biochemically defined subgroups of depressed patients.
Acta Psychiatr Scand 1988 Dec;78(6):720-9
"In 28 patients with primary depression, relationships were sought between rating scores on the Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale and the concentrations of the monoamine metabolites 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), homovanillic acid (HVA) and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenylglycol (HMPG) in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). Among the single items in the rating scale, reported sadness correlated negatively with HMPG. No other significant relationships were found in the total group of patients. However, in subgroups with low or high concentrations of monoamine metabolites, several significant relationships were found, such as a negative correlation between inner tension and concentration difficulties, respectively, and 5-HIAA in the low-HMPG subgroup. Curvilinear relationships were found between pessimistic thoughts and 5-HIAA in the high-5-HIAA subgroup and between apparent sadness and 5-HIAA in the low-HMPG subgroup. Suicidal thoughts tended to correlate in a curvilinear way with the ratio of HMPG/5-HIAA in the low-HVA and the high-HMPG subgroups, but the curves were mirrored. The results indicate that relationships between clinical symptoms and monoamine metabolite homeostasis in CSF are qualitatively and quantitatively different in defined high-and low-monoamine subgroups of depressed patients." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2464903&dopt=Abstract)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:57 PM
and a few more...

Cheetham SC, Crompton MR, Czudek C, Horton RW, Katona CL, Reynolds GP.
Serotonin concentrations and turnover in brains of depressed suicides.
Brain Res 1989 Nov 20;502(2):332-40
"5-Hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) concentrations and 5-HT turnover (5-HIAA/5-HT) were determined in 6 brain regions from 19 suicide victims in whom a retrospective diagnosis of depression was established, and 19 age- and sex-matched control subjects. Thirteen of the suicides were free of psychoactive drugs at the time of death; 5 were receiving antidepressant drugs. 5-HT, 5-HIAA and 5-HT turnover did not differ significantly between the total, drug-free and antidepressant-treated suicides and controls in frontal and temporal cortex, caudate and hippocampus. 5-HIAA concentration was significantly higher in amygdala of drug-free suicides than controls, whereas 5-HT and 5-HT turnover did not differ. 5-HT concentration was significantly lower in putamen of the total and antidepressant-treated suicides and a similar reduction was also apparent in the drug-free suicides. 5-HT turnover in putamen was significantly higher in the total and drug-free suicides compared to controls. 5-HT and 5-HIAA concentrations in putamen were significantly lower in drug-free suicides who died by non-violent means than in those who died by violent means. Differences between controls and suicides could not be attributed to age, sex or postmortem delay. These results offer no support for the view that 5-HT turnover is reduced in depressed subjects who commit suicide." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2479456&dopt=Abstract)


Owen F, Chambers DR, Cooper SJ, Crow TJ, Johnson JA, Lofthouse R, Poulter M.
Serotonergic mechanisms in brains of suicide victims.
Brain Res 1986 Jan 1;362(1):185-8
"Serotonergic mechanisms have been investigated in postmortem brain samples from controls and suicide victims. The concentrations of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin; 5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) were determined in occipital cortex and hippocampus and the high-affinity binding of ligands to the 5-HT1, 5-HT2 and imipramine-binding sites was assessed in frontal cortex, occipital cortex and hippocampus. The only significant difference between the two groups was a modest increase in 5-HIAA levels in the hippocampus of suicide victims. There was no evidence to suggest that those suicide victims with a clinical history of depression represented a subgroup with altered metabolite levels or binding values. The storage conditions of the samples were not related to the metabolite levels or binding values. There was, however, a significant positive correlation between [3H]imipramine binding and age in some brain regions. The results do not provide any evidence of gross alterations in 5-HT mechanisms in suicide or depression." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2417665&dopt=Abstract)


Roy A, Pickar D, Linnoila M, Doran AR, Paul SM.
Cerebrospinal fluid monoamine and monoamine metabolite levels and the dexamethasone suppression test in depression. Relationship to life events.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 1986 Apr;43(4):356-60
"The cerebrospinal fluid levels of norepinephrine and six monoamine metabolites were measured in 23 patients meeting DSM-III criteria for major depressive episode, 15 of whom also met criteria for melancholia. Life events during the six-month period before the onset of depression were recorded using Paykel's method. There was no difference in Hamilton depression ratings between patients with life events and those without. However, depressed patients who did not have a life event in the six months before the onset of depression had significantly lower levels of the dopamine metabolite homovanillic acid and the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid than those with life events. The incidence of nonsuppression on the dexamethasone suppression test was also greater in patients with a major depressive episode who did not have an undesirable life event than in those who did. Thus, the presence or absence of life events led to a separation into biologically distinct groups." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2420302&dopt=Abstract)


Westrin A, Nimeus A.
The dexamethasone suppression test and CSF-5-HIAA in relation to suicidality and depression in suicide attempters.
Eur Psychiatry. 2003 Jun;18(4):166-71.
"This study tested suicidality in relation to cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and the dexamethasone suppression test. Patients with nonsuppression of cortisol had the highest scores of the Suicide Assessment Scale (SUAS) and the Montgomery Asberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS), respectively (P < 0.05; P < 0.01). The results persisted when analysed for covariance with CSF-5-HIAA. We have previously noted an elevated suicide risk in suicide attempters with high SUAS-scores, why a large part of nonsuppressors may be at high risk for future suicide." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12814849)


Geracioti TD Jr, Loosen PT, Ekhator NN, Schmidt D, Chambliss B, Baker DG, Kasckow JW, Richtand NM, Keck PE Jr, Ebert MH.
Uncoupling of serotonergic and noradrenergic systems in depression: preliminary evidence from continuous cerebrospinal fluid sampling.
Depress Anxiety 1997;6(3):89-94
"We used the technique of continuous cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) sampling to test the following hypotheses regarding CNS monoaminergic systems in depression: (1) absolute concentrations of the informational substances tryptophan and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) are altered in the CNS of depressed patients (2) abnormal rhythms of tryptophan and/or 5-HIAA, or defective conversion of tryptophan to serotonin (5HT), exist in the CNS of depressed patients, and (3) the relationship between the CNS 5HT and norepinephrine (NE) systems is disrupted in depressed patients. We obtained 6-h concentration time series of tryptophan, 5-HIAA, NE, and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) in the CSF of 10 patients with major depression and in 10 normal volunteers. No significant differences in CSF tryptophan, 5-HIAA, NE, or MHPG concentrations or rhythms were observed between normal volunteers and depressed patients. Neither were there differences in the mean tryptophan-to-serotonin ratio. However, a negative linear relationship was observed between mean concentrations of 5-HIAA and NE in the CSF of the normal volunteers (r = 0.916 [r2 = 0.839], df = 9, P < 0.001) while, in contrast, depressed patients showed no such relationship (r = +0.094 [r2 = 0.00877], df = 9, n.s.). Furthermore, the correlation coefficients expressing the relationship between CSF MHPG and CSF 5-HIAA within the normal and depressed groups were significantly different. These data support the hypothesis that a disturbance in the interaction between the serotonergic and noradrenergic systems can exist in depressive illness in the absence of any simple 5HT or NE deficit or surplus." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9442982&dopt=Abstract)



Roy A, Pickar D, Linnoila M, Doran AR, Ninan P, Paul SM.
Cerebrospinal fluid monoamine and monoamine metabolite concentrations in melancholia.
Psychiatry Res 1985 Aug;15(4):281-92
"Cerebrospinal fluid levels of norepinephrine and six monoamine metabolites were measured in 28 medication-free depressed patients. Patients with a major depressive episode with melancholia (n = 15) had significantly lower levels of the three dopamine metabolites: homovanillic acid (HVA), dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC), and conjugated dihydroxyphenylacetic (CONJDOPAC), when compared with a combined group of patients with a major depressive episode or dysthymic disorder (n = 13). In patients with major depressive episode with melancholia, levels of HVA and of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid significantly correlated with the severity of depression. In the total group of 28 depressed patients, cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) levels of norepinephrine significantly correlated with symptoms of anxiety. In both patients with major depressive episode and major depressive episode with melancholia, those who were non-suppressors on the dexamethasone suppression test had significantly higher CSF levels of the norepinephrine metabolite 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol compared to those who were suppressors." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2415996&dopt=Abstract)


Koslow SH, Maas JW, Bowden CL, Davis JM, Hanin I, Javaid J.
CSF and urinary biogenic amines and metabolites in depression and mania. A controlled, univariate analysis.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 1983 Sep;40(9):999-1010
"Levels of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), homovanillic acid (HVA), and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) in the CSF, and norepinephrine (NE), epinephrine (E), vanillylmandelic acid, normetanephrine, metanephrine, and MHPG in the urine, were measured in 151 hospitalized patients with affective disorders and in 80 healthy controls following a two-week drug-free period. Unipolar and bipolar depressed subjects differed only in NE and E levels. Compared with controls, depressed subjects had higher CSF MHPG levels, women had higher 5-HIAA levels, and men had lower HVA levels. All urinary metabolites were elevated in depression and mania, with the exception of MHPG. The patterns of NE-E differences discriminated among the forms of affective disorders. These data suggest an imbalance of monoamine transmission in depression, characterized by the hyperactive sympathetic nervous system and adrenal medulla. However, MHPG may not be the measure of choice to reflect this imbalance, necessitating measurement of total body monoamine output." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6193764&dopt=Abstract)

TheDave
06-23-2009, 06:59 PM
and a couple more...

Gjerris A, Sorensen AS, Rafaelsen OJ, Werdelin L, Alling C, Linnoila M.
5-HT and 5-HIAA in cerebrospinal fluid in depression.
J Affect Disord 1987 Jan-Feb;12(1):13-22
"CSF 5-HT and 5-HIAA were measured in endogenously depressed patients (ICD-9) (n = 23) and controls (n = 11). Distribution of sex, age and body height was similar in the two groups. Non-parametric statistics were used. In depressed patients CSF 5-HT concentrations were found to be higher (P less than or equal to 0.01) than in controls. A further classification of the depressed patients by the Newcastle Scale showed that the highest values were found in the endogenous group compared to the non-endogenous group (P less than or equal to 0.02). CSF 5-HIAA was found to be equal in the two groups, even when pairs matched for height were compared. No relation between clinical recovery due to drug treatment and changes in CSF 5-HT was seen." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2437171&dopt=Abstract)


Lykouras E, Markianos M, Malliaras D, Stefanis C.
Neurochemical variables in delusional depression.
Am J Psychiatry 1988 Feb;145(2):214-7
"The authors assayed plasma dopamine beta-hydroxylase activity, platelet monoamine oxidase (MAO) activity, plasma prolactin, the urinary monoamine metabolites 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG), 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), and homovanillic acid (HVA), and urinary cAMP from 18 delusional and 22 nondelusional depressed inpatients. No significant differences between the two groups were found." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2449085&dopt=Abstract)


Gjerris A, Werdelin L, Gjerris F, Sorensen PS, Rafaelsen OJ, Alling C.
CSF-amine metabolites in depression, dementia and in controls.
Acta Psychiatr Scand 1987 Jun;75(6):619-28
"Lumbar CSF concentration of 5-HIAA, MHPG, and HVA were measured in patients with depression, dementia due to normal pressure hydrocephalus (NPH) and in controls. Moreover, ventricular concentrations of the metabolites were measured in patients with NPH. It was aimed to match patients and controls for age, sex, and body height. Non-parametric statistics were used throughout the study. No differences in lumbar concentrations of CSF 5-HIAA, MHPG and HVA were found between the different diagnostic groups." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2441573&dopt=Abstract)


Reddy PL, Khanna S, Subhash MN, Channabasavanna SM, Rao BS.
CSF amine metabolites in depression.
Biol Psychiatry 1992 Jan 15;31(2):112-8
"The amine metabolites, namely homovanillic acid (HVA) and 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) were measured in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of depressives (n = 30) and controls (n = 30). Depressed patients had significantly lower HVA levels than controls. No significant differences were noted between the two groups in 5-HIAA levels. However, the differences between the groups for the CSF HVA/5-HIAA ratio were larger than those for the CSF HVA alone (p less than 0.01 versus p less than 0.025, respectively). HVA levels correlated positively with monoamine oxidase activity and adenosine deaminase activity." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1371076&dopt=Abstract)


Peabody CA, Faull KF, King RJ, Whiteford HA, Barchas JD, Berger PA.
CSF amine metabolites and depression.
Psychiatry Res 1987 May;21(1):1-7
"Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) amine metabolites were measured in 37 male subjects with major depressive disorder. Scores on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HRSD) correlated significantly with 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5HIAA) and with homovanillic acid (HVA). In addition, the single suicide item of the HRSD correlated significantly with 5HIAA. Further, 5HIAA and HVA correlated significantly with each other. There was a significant positive correlation between HVA and two HRSD items, the depersonalization/derealization item and the paranoid item. Since lumbar CSF metabolite concentrations may reflect central nervous system activity of parent amines, these data suggest a relationship between depression and decreased dopaminergic and serotonergic activity." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2440071&dopt=Abstract)

Redmond DE Jr, Katz MM, Maas JW, Swann A, Casper R, Davis JM.
Cerebrospinal fluid amine metabolites. Relationships with behavioral measurements in depressed, manic, and healthy control subjects.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 1986 Oct;43(10):938-47
"We studied 99 hospitalized depressed, 14 manic, and 61 healthy control subjects and evaluated relationships during a drug-free baseline period between behavioral measures (postulated to be associated with brain norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin function) and metabolites of these neurotransmitters sampled from lumbar cerebrospinal fluid (CSF): 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG), homovanillic acid, and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid. Depressed subjects with increased anxiety, agitation, somatization, and sleep disturbance were found to have significantly elevated concentrations of CSF MHPG; this relationship was not found in the healthy controls. A correlation between CSF MHPG level and an anxiety/agitation dimension measured in all subjects was statistically significant but explained a modest portion of the total variance. No consistent relationships were found between CSF MHPG and depression/retardation, hostility/interpersonal sensitivity, and global severity, nor did any of these measures correlate significantly with the levels of the other monoamine metabolites, although some trends were found. Other factors did not account for the relationships between CSF MHPG and some behavioral measures, including diagnostic subgroup, motor movement, age, sex, and premenopausal or postmenopausal status in women. Suggested relationships among drug treatment modality, eventual treatment outcome, behavioral and mood state at baseline, and these metabolite levels will require further analyses." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2428328&dopt=Abstract)


Faustman WO, Faull KF, Whiteford HA, Borchert C, Csernansky JG.
CSF 5-HIAA, serum cortisol, and age differentially predict vegetative and cognitive symptoms in depression.
Biol Psychiatry 1990 Feb 1;27(3):311-8
"Prior studies have shown that both cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) concentrations of 5-hydroxyindolacetic acid (5-HIAA) and serum cortisol levels are related to overall symptom severity in depression. In the present study, 30 unmedicated inpatients meeting Research Diagnostic Criteria (RDC) criteria for depression participated in serum cortisol collection and a lumbar puncture for CSF. A multiple regression evaluated the ability of CSF 5-HIAA, serum cortisol, and age to predict cognitive and vegetative symptom clusters of the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. The multiple regression to predict the vegetative symptom cluster was highly significant overall (p = 0.002) and found that age and cortisol but not 5-HIAA predicted vegetative symptoms. The regression to predict the cognitive cluster narrowly missed overall significance (p = 0.06). Both CSF 5-HIAA and serum cortisol predicted cognitive symptoms and 5-HIAA predicted the cognitive cluster more strongly than cortisol. Age did not predict cognitive symptoms. The results suggest a dissociation between serum cortisol levels and CSF 5-HIAA in predicting vegetative and cognitive symptom clusters in depression." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1689187&dopt=Abstract)


Hasey GM, Stancer HC, Warsh JJ, Persad E.
Neurotransmitter metabolites and endocrine responses in depression.
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1985;9(5-6):613-7
"Urinary 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethyleneglycol (MHPG), 3-4-dihydroxyphenylethyleneglycol (DHPG), 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), plasma thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), prolactin (PRL) and growth hormone (GH) were measured before and after the injection of thyrotropin releasing hormone (TRH) in healthy subjects and depressed patients with primary affective disorder. The TSH response to TRH did not differ in depressed compared with control subjects. A trend (.05 less than p less than .10) toward a lower PRL response appeared in male depressed compared with male control subjects. GH levels did not consistently change after TRH. In all subjects the TSH response correlated positively with pre- and post-TRH urinary MHPG. The PRL response correlated negatively with pre-TRH urinary 5-HIAA. Pre-TRH daytime urinary 5-HIAA levels were elevated in depressed subjects." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2418468&dopt=Abstract)


Secunda SK, Cross CK, Koslow S, Katz MM, Kocsis J, Maas JW, Landis H.
Biochemistry and suicidal behavior in depressed patients.
Biol Psychiatry 1986 Jul;21(8-9):756-67
"The present study was undertaken in order to further explore the relationship between monoamine levels and hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical (HYPAC) functioning and suicidal behavior in depressed patients. One hundred and thirty-two depressed inpatients participated in the NIMH Collaborative Study on the Psychobiology of Depression. Similar to previous reports, our suicide attempters were younger, more likely to be bipolar, had an earlier age at onset, and displayed more psychotic features. No correlation between cortisol hypersecretion or Dexamethasone Suppression Test (DST) nonsuppression and suicide attempts were found. Only the pre-DST evening plasma cortisol distinguished the groups, being lower in the attempter group. We were unable to confirm the previously reported correlation between cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and suicide attempts. Of the monoamines examined, only urinary and plasma 3-methoxy-4-hydroxphenylglycol (MHPG) differed between suicide attempters and nonattempters, showing lower levels in the attempter group. There was a trend for CSF MHPG in the same direction. This latter reduction was restricted to the bipolar group." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3730460&dopt=Abstract)


Lambert G, Johansson M, Agren H, Friberg P.
Reduced brain norepinephrine and dopamine release in treatment-refractory depressive illness: evidence in support of the catecholamine hypothesis of mood disorders.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 2000 Aug;57(8):787-93
"BACKGROUND: The etiology of depressive illness has been linked with brain monoaminergic neuronal dysfunction, yet the development of sensitive markers of endogenous depression has proven difficult. METHODS: Using catheters placed in an internal jugular vein, we estimated the release of brain monoamine neurotransmitters in 19 healthy volunteers and in 9 patients with nonbipolar depressive illness refractory to medication at rest and following intravenous desipramine hydrochloride. Venoarterial plasma concentration gradients were used to quantify the amount of neurotransmitters stemming from the brain. Cerebral oxidative metabolism was assessed concurrently from measurements of oxygen and carbon dioxide gas exchange via the process of regional indirect calorimetry. RESULTS: The brains of these patients exhibited reduced venoarterial norepinephrine (4.0 +/- 2.7 nmol/L vs 0.7 +/- 1.3 nmol/L) and homovanillic acid concentration gradients (8.3 +/- 7.8 nmol/L vs 3.1 +/- 1.9 nmol/L), and used an energy source other than glucose. Internal jugular 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid concentration gradients were not reduced in the patients with depressive illness. While both the reduction in norepinephrine turnover and the defect in cerebral metabolism were normalized following pharmacological blockade of the norepinephrine transporter with desipramine, paradoxically it was the brain's turnover of dopamine that bore a significant relation to the patients' clinical status (r(s) = 0.79, P =.02). The positive nature of this relationship remains difficult to reconcile. CONCLUSIONS: In accordance with the monoamine hypothesis, a deficit in brain norepinephrine and dopamine exists in patients with depressive illness. Moreover, the brains of these patients use an energy source other than glucose, a situation that is normalized following the acute pharmacological blockade of the norepinephrine transporter with the tricyclic antidepressant, desipramine." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10920468&dopt=Abstract)


Tapie M, Garnier JP, Tremine T, Bousquet B, Manet L, Dreux C, Lauzel JP.
[Determination of 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenyethylene-glycol and its urinary conjugates. Value in the diagnosis and therapeutic follow-up of depression]
Pathol Biol (Paris) 1988 Mar;36(3):217-23
"In psychiatric illness like depression, difference is essential between noradrenergic and serotoninergic sources. Therefore the measurement of urinary excretion of MHPG (3-methoxy-4-hydroxy-phenylethylene-glycol) is interesting, because MHPG seems to be the best reflect of central noradrenergic activity. Analytical assay of MHPG includes an enzymatic hydrolysis and an extraction by ethyl acetate. Separation is conducted by HPLC with fluorometric detection for MHPG and VMA, and electrochemical detection for 5-HIAA, which measurement is simultaneous. Quality control is evaluated (detection limit, linearity, precision, reproducibility, hydrolysis and extraction efficiency). Control values of 15 healthy subjects are 18.9 +/- 8.0 mumol/24 h of total MHPG, 1.5 +/- 1.0 of free MHPG, 8.5 +/- 2.0 of sulfate, and 10.7 +/- 4.4 of glucuronide MHPG (m +/- 2 sigma). In our study on depression, the best biological witness seems to be the sulfate-MHPG: in 16 depressed patients without treatment, its rate is very lowered (1.2 +/- 1.2 mumol/24 h). Total and glucuronide MHPG decrease weaker than sulfate (respectively -51% and -65%), while free MHPG increases (+ 193%) versus controls. Urinary VMA and 5-HIAA, peripheric catabolites of respectively adrenalin and serotonin are not significantly altered. There is no correlation neither between urinary sulfate-MHPG and scale evaluation before treatment, nor between urinary sulfate-MHPG and clinic improvement after antidepressive treatment." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2452402&dopt=Abstract)


Bondy B, Baghai TC, Minov C, Schule C, Schwarz MJ, Zwanzger P, Rupprecht R, Moller HJ.
Substance P serum levels are increased in major depression: preliminary results.
Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Mar 15;53(6):538-42.
"BACKGROUND: Substance P (SP) is thought to have an impact in the pathophysiology of depression and the mechanism of action of antidepressant drugs. The aim of this study was to analyze the serum SP levels in healthy control subjects and in depressed patients before and after antidepressant treatments. METHODS: Twenty-three patients with major depression and 33 control subjects participated in the study. Using an enzyme immunoassay, the SP serum levels were determined in patients at baseline (before treatment) and after 2 and 4 weeks of antidepressant therapy. Determinations of SP in control subjects were carried out twice, at baseline and after 4 weeks. RESULTS: The mean baseline SP serum concentration was significantly higher in depressed patients as compared with control subjects (p <.001). Repeated measurements in control subjects showed that SP remains relatively constant over a period of 4 weeks. Although in depressed patients there was no overall change in the mean SP levels between baseline and 4 weeks' treatment, 37% of them exhibited a decrease of SP (15%-50%), which can be correlated to a better drug response than an increase in SP concentration after treatment (p =.001). CONCLUSIONS: Our data show that serum SP levels are increased in a proportion of patients with major depression and might thus indicate a subgroup of the disorder in which neuropeptides have a key position. Future studies are needed to clarify whether the observed SP decrease in treatment responders can be attributed to a specific class of drugs." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12644359&dopt=Abstract)

mr007
06-23-2009, 07:04 PM
That you are more of an expert than the APA, that mood and depression are the same thing, than they aren't, that ssri's alleviate depression, and that I am an idiot....

Beyond a shadow of a doubt you are an idiot.

First you state that you agree that brain chemistry CAN affect mood.

Depression is a STATE of mood.

You go on to state that your argument is there is no evidence that brain chemistry CAUSES depression.

Ummm...... so..... do you not agree with your first statement or what? I seriously don't care I'm just pointing out you're a tool.

OABB
06-23-2009, 08:38 PM
again for the retards....

Depression is NOT CAUSED by biological or chemical imbalances. Depression is caused by being depressed by your environment.

Of course if you mess with brain chemistry, moods will change as subject by Tracy Johnson(one example of many) taking an SSRI and killing herself. In fact, the only example that fits into your limited and self-pity view is that these drugs can cause depression in non depressed patients.

go read all my posts again as I have said it so many times that I am now depressed and am going to kill myself.


DEPRESSION IS NOT CAUSED BY NATURALLY OCCURRING CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL IMBALANCES.


Of course if you **** with brain chemistry, than moods will be affected. I never ever ever ever ever ever said otherwise.

My argument is that people who have depression have it because their life is depressing.

those arguing with me are saying that depression is caused by the way your brain is when you are born...i will always argue this. for ever. and ever.

It's the same as saying that alcoholism is a disease when it is actual someone drinking to escape so they don't have to deal with whatever is making them sad.

Why would anyone argue with this? It is pure logic and common sense.

If those of you suffering from depression would rather believe that you have a faulty brain than by all means enjoy your miserable existence. Because that is what your life will be.

If you have the courage to face your demons and really get in touch with whatever you are depressed about, you can have a much more meaningful life.

I am only trying to help by calling out this bull****.

It seems you and the others are content with living this lie that nothing I can ever say will get through.

Footsteps was right when he told me I was wasting my time in my rep...It is true that what people don't want to see, they never will.

You can keep showing studies where peoples brain chemistry is literally being ****ed with in laboratories if it makes you feel better, but the sad truth is your life is always going to be depressing as long as you believe this.

None of you can see the difference between what I am saying and what you are hearing, and there is nothing more I can say.

I need an ssri after reading this thread, because the sadness and ineptness is depressing.

TheDave
06-23-2009, 10:09 PM
again for the retards....
Depression is NOT CAUSED by biological or chemical imbalances. Depression is caused by being depressed by your environment.
For some people... sure. For others... no
Unfortunately the world of psychiatry doesn't fit in your overly simplified box.
Of course if you mess with brain chemistry, moods will change as subject by Tracy Johnson(one example of many) taking an SSRI and killing herself. In fact, the only example that fits into your limited and self-pity view is that these drugs can cause depression in non depressed patients.
Bud your the only one calling everyone names in every post making rediculously graphic discription of incestious rape... If you ask me, your the only one on this thread that could realy benefit from some time on the shinks couch.
go read all my posts again as I have said it so many times that I am now depressed and am going to kill myself.
...again couch time might do you some good.

DEPRESSION IS NOT CAUSED BY NATURALLY OCCURRING CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL IMBALANCES.
You're wrong, depression like all moods and emotions is chemical. Not sure how you missed this in all your vast experience on the subject.

Of course if you **** with brain chemistry, than moods will be affected.
Finally we agree on something... guess thats why SSRI's and MAOI's work.

those arguing with me are saying that depression is caused by the way your brain is when you are born...i will always argue this. for ever. and ever.
No one said that... We said depression is chemical, like all moods and emotions and you said it only had to do with have a "depressing life". Quit making up straw men to support your point.

It's the same as saying that alcoholism is a disease when it is actual someone drinking to escape so they don't have to deal with whatever is making them sad.
Why would anyone argue with this? It is pure logic and common sense.
Probably because it is overly simplistic black and white view of the world that usually only exists in teenagers... how old are you?
If those of you suffering from depression would rather believe that you have a faulty brain than by all means enjoy your miserable existence. Because that is what your life will be.
If you have the courage to face your demons and really get in touch with whatever you are depressed about, you can have a much more meaningful life.
and if after someone exhausts other options, they and their Dr. decide to try a course of medication that has been shown to work in similiar cases... why do you care? Why all the anger towards people trying to improve their life? No one here has disagreed that antidepressants are over perscribed and abused.
Why the abusive, name calling, condescending atitude toward EVERYONE? Every suggestion people have made has been about researching the subject, making dietary, exercise and environmental changes... and then as a last resort talking to a Dr. regarding treatment.
Everyone on this thread except you and your buddy are acting like responsible adults...
You can keep showing studies where peoples brain chemistry is literally being ****ed with in laboratories if it makes you feel better, but the sad truth is your life is always going to be depressing as long as you believe this.
I had a feeling once the studies came out you would just plug your ears a little tighter and scream na na na a little louder
I need an ssri after reading this thread, because the sadness and ineptness is depressing.
For the last time...a few sessions on the couch might do you some good... just sayn'

OABB
06-24-2009, 09:14 AM
For some people... sure. For others... no
Unfortunately the world of psychiatry doesn't fit in your overly simplified box.

Bud your the only one calling everyone names in every post making rediculously graphic discription of incestious rape... If you ask me, your the only one on this thread that could realy benefit from some time on the shinks couch.

...again couch time might do you some good.


You're wrong, depression like all moods and emotions is chemical. Not sure how you missed this in all your vast experience on the subject.


Finally we agree on something... guess thats why SSRI's and MAOI's work.


No one said that... We said depression is chemical, like all moods and emotions and you said it only had to do with have a "depressing life". Quit making up straw men to support your point.


Probably because it is overly simplistic black and white view of the world that usually only exists in teenagers... how old are you?

and if after someone exhausts other options, they and their Dr. decide to try a course of medication that has been shown to work in similiar cases... why do you care? Why all the anger towards people trying to improve their life? No one here has disagreed that antidepressants are over perscribed and abused.
Why the abusive, name calling, condescending atitude toward EVERYONE? Every suggestion people have made has been about researching the subject, making dietary, exercise and environmental changes... and then as a last resort talking to a Dr. regarding treatment.
Everyone on this thread except you and your buddy are acting like responsible adults...

I had a feeling once the studies came out you would just plug your ears a little tighter and scream na na na a little louder

For the last time...a few sessions on the couch might do you some good... just sayn'


Do I need to go through all your "studies" and highlight all the "mays" and mentions that "further studies are needed" or every mention of "preliminary results" I will, but I am afraid it will do nothing for you. It's like your head is literally incapable of storing information that you don't agree with.

for example:



you just mentioned again the ssri's work so it is apparant to me, and I mean this really, that you are incapable of understanding logic at all. It's like you don't even pay attention to things like the fda not allowing people under 18 to take ssri's(It's written on the ****ing box!) anymore because it is PROVEN that it increases suicidal thought.

THIS IS PROVEN! and yet you say they still work.

I quote the APA three different times where they CLEARLY state that brain science has not advanced to the point where there are specific markers or biological legions to show depression.

I ****ING EVEN LINKED THE GODAMN SITE!

I EXPLAIN TEN DIFFERENT ****ING TIMES MY STANCE AND YET YOU STILL ARE ARGUING WITH ME IN A WAY THAT CLEARLY SHOWS YOU HAVEN'T EVEN READ WHAT I SAID!


I hope, when some time passes, you will be able to read this thread or do some actual research and have your mind opened.

This is beyond frustrating talking to you. I think you are literally an idiot. and not in a message board insult kind of way. I think you are an actual idiot.

This thread is right there for you if you don't believe me.

Take some adderol and read it again.

I am done with this. I can't force you to be smarter than you are, so it's my fault I am getting angry.

Go enjoy your depressing little life blaming your problems on soome invisible bug....what do I care.

It's not like you are going to cure cancer or anything.

TheDave
06-24-2009, 01:53 PM
Do I need to go through all your "studies" and highlight all the "mays" and mentions that "further studies are needed" or every mention of "preliminary results" I will, but I am afraid it will do nothing for you. It's like your head is literally incapable of storing information that you don't agree with.

As humorous as it would be to watch you try and tear down science that is WAY over your head... please dont. the fact is you have shown time and time agian that your basic undestanding of even freshman level science is beyond your grasp.

I'm guessing PhD level studies are beyond you.


you just mentioned again the ssri's work so it is apparant to me, and I mean this really, that you are incapable of understanding logic at all. It's like you don't even pay attention to things like the fda not allowing people under 18 to take ssri's(It's written on the ****ing box!) anymore because it is PROVEN that it increases suicidal thought.

No one has recomended that anyone under the age of 18 should take them... Again you are creating a stawman argument hoping we are all dumb enough to fall for it.

THIS IS PROVEN! and yet you say they still work.

They do for adults try reading some of the studies.. err... never mind.

I quote the APA three different times where they CLEARLY state that brain science has not advanced to the point where there are specific markers or biological legions to show depression.

I ****ING EVEN LINKED THE GODAMN SITE!

Again you show your incapable of even bio 101 level knowledge.

A Genetic Marker or Biological Lesion (not legion) are not chemical signatures. In both cases they are stating that they have yet to find a clear DNA trail or physical abnormality that would yeild a simplistic test for depression. Neither of those statements say anything about the chemical nature of the disorder. You have been hanging on that statement like it is some type of proof of your small minded position.

IT"S NOT....

I EXPLAIN TEN DIFFERENT ****ING TIMES MY STANCE AND YET YOU STILL ARE ARGUING WITH ME IN A WAY THAT CLEARLY SHOWS YOU HAVEN'T EVEN READ WHAT I SAID!

Unfortunately I have...


I hope, when some time passes, you will be able to read this thread or do some actual research and have your mind opened.

This is beyond frustrating talking to you. I think you are literally an idiot. and not in a message board insult kind of way. I think you are an actual idiot.

This thread is right there for you if you don't believe me.

Take some adderol and read it again.

I am done with this. I can't force you to be smarter than you are, so it's my fault I am getting angry.

Go enjoy your depressing little life blaming your problems on soome invisible bug....what do I care.

It's not like you are going to cure cancer or anything.


Blah, Blah, Blah... I guess I should be glad that you didn't continue with the sophmoric incest/rape scenarios

OABB
06-24-2009, 03:10 PM
As humorous as it would be to watch you try and tear down science that is WAY over your head... please dont. the fact is you have shown time and time agian that your basic undestanding of even freshman level science is beyond your grasp.

Dude, you posted that stuff, you should stand behind it.

"May", "further tests needed", and "preliminary data" is all the tearing down this theory needs.

Do doctors say Cancer "may" be linked to tumors? Do they say that Aids "may" be linked to T-cell counts? Do they say that Herpes "may" be linked to physical sores?

No one in the respected scientific community would even classify this theory as anything close to fact at this point. Most serious scientists do say that this is only a theory that needs more research.

If you don't believe me, re-read your awesome research.





No one has recomended that anyone under the age of 18 should take them... Again you are creating a stawman argument hoping we are all dumb enough to fall for it.

So, than how do you explain the MILLIONS of children under the age of 18 that were prescribed anti-depressants that led to the ACTUAL ****ING COURT CASE IN ENGLAND THAT I MENTION WAY EARLIER!?

You see, when you say "no one" and the correct numbers are ACTUALLY MILLIONS, that shows that you are a big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big moron.

sakuraba
06-24-2009, 03:20 PM
Hey guys, can't we all just get along? Can't we agree to disagree, kumbaya.
Besides there's something more important happening. I was walking by a pub last night and this morning I felt weird, so I went to the doctor. Turns out I caught Alcoholism. Yeah ! Can you believe it? Now I will have to deal with this disease the rest of my life. Just my luck to catch that.

TheDave
06-24-2009, 04:24 PM
Dude, you posted that stuff, you should stand behind it.

"May", "further tests needed", and "preliminary data" is all the tearing down this theory needs.

Do doctors say Cancer "may" be linked to tumors? Do they say that Aids "may" be linked to T-cell counts? Do they say that Herpes "may" be linked to physical sores?

Once again you show your stupidity. Not all cancer is involves tumors... Try Lukemia.

And not all tumors are malignant... some are benign.

See science is a little more complicated than 1+1=2... probably why you aren't any good at it.



No one in the respected scientific community would even classify this theory as anything close to fact at this point. Most serious scientists do say that this is only a theory that needs more research.

If you don't believe me, re-read your awesome research.

and yet the standard treatment for this disorder is through medication based on this theory... again maybe the science is beyond your abilities.


So, than how do you explain the MILLIONS of children under the age of 18 that were prescribed anti-depressants that led to the ACTUAL ****ING COURT CASE IN ENGLAND THAT I MENTION WAY EARLIER!?

You see, when you say "no one" and the correct numbers are ACTUALLY MILLIONS, that shows that you are a big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big moron.

Again, (read it slowly this time) no one on this thread but you is talking about the implications of this medication and children. Believe it or not Einstien there are MANY medications in this world that carry different risk levels and warnings for children than they do for adults. That doesn't mean the disease to be treated is imaginary.

and by the way... According to this study you are wrong (again)

The Relationship Between Antidepressant Prescription Rates and Rate of Early Adolescent Suicide

Robert D. Gibbons, Ph.D., Kwan Hur, Ph.D., Dulal K. Bhaumik, Ph.D., and J. John Mann, M.D.

OBJECTIVE: In 2002, 264 children and adolescents ages 5–14 died by suicide in the United States, the fifth leading cause of death. Of these suicides, 260 were in the 10–14 year age group, making suicide the third largest cause of death behind accidents and malignancy. Although 60% of suicides in the general population occur in the midst of a mood disorder, usually untreated, little is known about the relationship between treatment of mood disorders and youth suicide. The FDA recently linked adverse event reports of suicidal ideation among children and adolescents in randomized controlled trials to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and consequently required a change in labeling that included a black box warning regarding SSRI use for all age groups. Given that the age-adjusted suicide rate is about six times higher in 15–19 year olds compared with 10–14 year olds, the risk-benefit ratio may be different in younger children. Therefore, this study examined the association between antidepressant medication prescription rate and suicide rate in children ages 5–14 prior to the FDA findings by analyzing associations at the county level across the United States. METHOD: National county-level suicide rate data among children ages 5–14 were broken down by sex, income, and race during the period 1996–1998. National county-level antidepressant prescription rate data were expressed as number of pills prescribed per person. The primary outcome measure was the suicide rate in each county expressed as number of suicides for a given population size. RESULTS: After adjustment for sex, race, income, access to mental health care, and county-to-county variability in suicide rates, higher SSRI prescription rates were associated with lower suicide rates in children and adolescents. CONCLUSIONS: The aggregate nature of these observational data precludes a direct causal interpretation of the results. More SSRI prescriptions are associated with lower suicide rates in children and may reflect antidepressant efficacy, treatment compliance, better quality mental health care, and low toxicity in the event of a suicide attempt by overdose.

Hulamau
06-24-2009, 04:34 PM
again for the retards....

Depression is NOT CAUSED by biological or chemical imbalances. Depression is caused by being depressed by your environment.

Of course if you mess with brain chemistry, moods will change as subject by Tracy Johnson(one example of many) taking an SSRI and killing herself. In fact, the only example that fits into your limited and self-pity view is that these drugs can cause depression in non depressed patients.

go read all my posts again as I have said it so many times that I am now depressed and am going to kill myself.


DEPRESSION IS NOT CAUSED BY NATURALLY OCCURRING CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL IMBALANCES.


Of course if you **** with brain chemistry, than moods will be affected. I never ever ever ever ever ever said otherwise.

My argument is that people who have depression have it because their life is depressing.

those arguing with me are saying that depression is caused by the way your brain is when you are born...i will always argue this. for ever. and ever.


The problem with OBB & Sak is they have a religious/moral belief that they wrongly feel is threatened by the reality that serotonin and the catecholamines have a direct bearing on how one feels. Just as how one interprets and responds to life also influences those same neurotransmitter levels. It works both ways .. that's life.

And that reality doesnt at all encourage anyone to hide behind some broken brain idea. These are pliable and adaptable states that can be influenced by changing a bad situation to a better one and also re-balancing an out of kilter biochemistry.

And they make the amaturish and very superficial assumption that just because the various re-uptake inhibitor drugs dont work nearly as well as they are advertized too, and do have significant side effects and are based on a flawed and incomplete monoamine theory, that this some how 'proves' that neurotransmitters aren't intimately connected to the many symptoms clusters that make up various neurotransmitter based conditions such as depression, ADD and many other conditions.

Its a straw man argument.

The fact that these drugs don't work well and a lot of effort by the drug companies has gone into disguising that fact, only proves that these drugs are based on a flawed and limited understanding of just how the whole neurotransmission system works. Not that neurotransmitters dont plaay a role and aren't worth learning more about for helping people with more serious issues.

It says NOTHING AT ALL against serotonin and dopamine have a starring role either as proximate 'causes' in some cases, nor against the fact that these neuros are themselves modulated and depleted by a 'depressing' experiences that last for more than a few days or weeks.

Of course, there is a role for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, but that is only part of the complex picture of life and ones responses to it. And isnt always enough.

And trying to quote a few studies that SEEM to show little correlation between serotonin or dopamine being too low below some arbitrary 'normal' values and relief or not of depressive symptoms, also thoroughly misses the point of how these neuros effect mood, the mind and motivation to begin with.

Depression is NOT a Prozac deficiency disorder any more than a headache is and aspirin deficiency syndrome.

As such, trying to harp on some original 'CAUSE' of the depression and insisting that a too low level of serotonin doesn't cause depression ( true enough though such a scenario can contribute to one feeling depressed), is a rather fruitless argument as well.

A headache can be 'caused' by many things, just as can depression. However even though a aspirin deficiency isn't the source of all headaches, taking an aspirin is surprisingly effective in alleviating the pain of many types of headaches within an hour! This ws also true when the mechanism of action os aspirin was far les understood than it is today.

So too, for a small but consistent number of people the SSRIs do provide some symptomatic relief. Even though they are far from ideal drugs and have many side effects and are based on a flawed and not fully fleshed out understanding of the brain chemistry issue as it is.

The SSRIs actually begin depleting those same neurotransmitters they are supposed to enhance when used for too long without augmenting them with amino acid precursors needed to actually replenish said neurotransmitters ( that is why people often have to switch to other SSRI or NSRI drugs to keep them going abit longer). But just because the drugs are less than effective and even rather poorly designed in NO WAY is an indictment of the central role of these neurotransmitters in over 60 different symptoms groups.

I don't like the word disease either, and it isn't necessary. Most of these conditions reflect a system out of balance and most are due to greater or lesser degrees of neuron bundle damage that actually require far greater levels of neurotransmitters present in the post synaptic junction to relieve the symptoms ... Often 4 to 6 times higher than the so called low range of 'normal values'.

These two guys have made the classic mistake of fixing in their mind a which came first the chicken or egg argument about how life works and then trying to bend their very limited understanding of the science of neurotransmission to fit their thesis.

Of course, one should try everything in their power to improve a bad situation in life. That's common sense 101! What else is new?!?

But a person also has to have minimal neuro chemical functioning to be able to even entertain that thought, must less carry it out.

There are FAR MORE effective ways to raise S & D levels naturally and safely without the major downsides of SSRIs and DSRIs that these two clowns rightly complain about.

But to then take the leap that a better understanding of brain chemistry isn't a laudable method or goal for improving the lives of millions is ludicrous in the extreme.

You can see their argument hit a dead end a while ago and they don't even realize it! :-) They can only fall back on a few worn out cliches and devolve into childish insults and egoic delusions of grandeur like the laughable Spartan analogy used to prop themselves up in self-righteous martydom!

The sad part is, the few good points they do have get snowed under by the rigidity and almost mean-spirited conviction that they are 'RIGHT' no matter what anyone else says ... Not even more subtle and detailed perspectives can get in and shed any light in such minds that are as fixed in stone from the out set. What a pity.

OABB
06-24-2009, 10:41 PM
The problem with OBB & Sak is they have a religious/moral belief that they wrongly feel is threatened by the reality that serotonin and the catecholamines have a direct bearing on how one feels. Just as how one interprets and responds to life also influences those same neurotransmitter levels. It works both ways .. that's life.

That is not a fact...the truth is it may only work one way. If being in a depressed situation changes your brain chemistry, than all testing of depressed patients is irrelevant at the point of testing. What they need to test is a depressed patients brain chemistry before they are depressed to truly tell if there is a difference. There is no brain chemistry registry in children, so there is no way to prove that it works both ways. Being logical, I would never say something is a fact if it can't be proven. But than again I am stupid.

And that reality doesnt at all encourage anyone to hide behind some broken brain idea. These are pliable and adaptable states that can be influenced by changing a bad situation to a better one and also re-balancing an out of kilter biochemistry.

This is very true...it was a great point when I made it 5 pages ago.

And they make the amaturish and very superficial assumption that just because the various re-uptake inhibitor drugs dont work nearly as well as they are advertized too, and do have significant side effects and are based on a flawed and incomplete monoamine theory, that this some how 'proves' that neurotransmitters aren't intimately connected to the many symptoms clusters that make up various neurotransmitter based conditions such as depression, ADD and many other conditions.

O.k....than what sort of evidence(besides of course the fact that the theory is flawed, as you so brilliantly point out, and that the drugs have horrible side effects, again your brilliant point, and that they don't really work would you need to realize that they don't really work and that the theory is flawed and that they have horrible side effects?



The fact that these drugs don't work well and a lot of effort by the drug companies has gone into disguising that fact, only proves that these drugs are based on a flawed and limited understanding of just how the whole neurotransmission system works. Not that neurotransmitters dont plaay a role and aren't worth learning more about for helping people with more serious issues.

hmmm. sounds familiar. I guess the difference between you and I is that when something doesn't work, is misunderstood and flawed I see that it doesn't work, is misunderstood and flawed and you see that it just hasn't been figured out yet. If you ran into a brick wall at full speed, at which point would you try and go around it? Actually you would probably just run into it at a different speed and angle.

It says NOTHING AT ALL against serotonin and dopamine have a starring role either as proximate 'causes' in some cases, nor against the fact that these neuros are themselves modulated and depleted by a 'depressing' experiences that last for more than a few days or weeks.

Of course, there is a role for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, but that is only part of the complex picture of life and ones responses to it. And isnt always enough.

True, it says nothing at all about this quacky theory. Again i see that as meaning that it says nothing at all, but you see that it just isn't there yet...I think that seeing the world the way you really want it, and ignoring all logic, reasoning and fact as dangerous. Of course my whacky chemicals may be out of whack in my brain.

And trying to quote a few studies that SEEM to show little correlation between serotonin or dopamine being too low below some arbitrary 'normal' values and relief or not of depressive symptoms, also thoroughly misses the point of how these neuros effect mood, the mind and motivation to begin with.

Depression is NOT a Prozac deficiency disorder any more than a headache is and aspirin deficiency syndrome.

perhaps you should explain this to thedave because he can't seem to understand this.

As such, trying to harp on some original 'CAUSE' of the depression and insisting that a too low level of serotonin doesn't cause depression ( true enough though such a scenario can contribute to one feeling depressed), is a rather fruitless argument as well.

A headache can be 'caused' by many things, just as can depression. However even though a aspirin deficiency isn't the source of all headaches, taking an aspirin is surprisingly effective in alleviating the pain of many types of headaches within an hour! This ws also true when the mechanism of action os aspirin was far les understood than it is today.

Depression is caused by one thing- depressing ****. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY...AGAIN IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED YOUR BRAIN CHEMISTRY CAN CHANGE, BUT IF YOU AREN'T TESTED BEFORE YOU ARE DEPRESSED THAN IT IS ****ING IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW IF IT WORKS THE OTHER WAY. HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? IF YOU THINK EVERYTHING ELSE I HAVE SAID IS WORTHLESS, THAN AT LEAST DO ME THE FAVOR OF NOT IGNORING THIS ONE SIMPLE ****ING THING....THINK ABOUT IT. LET IT'S SIMPLE LOGIC INTO YOUR BRAIN....THIS THREAD WILL END WHEN YOU DO.


So too, for a small but consistent number of people the SSRIs do provide some symptomatic relief. Even though they are far from ideal drugs and have many side effects and are based on a flawed and not fully fleshed out understanding of the brain chemistry issue as it is.

The SSRIs actually begin depleting those same neurotransmitters they are supposed to enhance when used for too long without augmenting them with amino acid precursors needed to actually replenish said neurotransmitters ( that is why people often have to switch to other SSRI or NSRI drugs to keep them going abit longer). But just because the drugs are less than effective and even rather poorly designed in NO WAY is an indictment of the central role of these neurotransmitters in over 60 different symptoms groups.

I don't like the word disease either, and it isn't necessary. Most of these conditions reflect a system out of balance and most are due to greater or lesser degrees of neuron bundle damage that actually require far greater levels of neurotransmitters present in the post synaptic junction to relieve the symptoms ... Often 4 to 6 times higher than the so called low range of 'normal values'.

true....but if a depressed person says they feel better, what's not to say that that they are just numb and don't feel anything. to a depressed person numb is improvement. most people on these drugs and even in this thread have used the word numb. YOU CAN'T BASE CHEMICAL SCIENCE OFF OF A FEELING! THEY TEACH THAT **** IN THIRD ****ING GRADE!

Why even build a rocket ship to go to the moon if you can just read about it in some science fiction novel? What's the point of using a controlled experiment to test a hypothesis based solely on data that can be quantified?

What if they lie, or don't know how they feel? that's why Science is based off of facts, and they simply, as you have brilliantly pointed out, aren't here.

These two guys have made the classic mistake of fixing in their mind a which came first the chicken or egg argument about how life works and then trying to bend their very limited understanding of the science of neurotransmission to fit their thesis.[/B]

Of course, one should try everything in their power to improve a bad situation in life. That's common sense 101! What else is new?!?

But a person also has to have minimal neuro chemical functioning to be able to even entertain that thought, must less carry it out.

There are FAR MORE effective ways to raise S & D levels naturally and safely without the major downsides of SSRIs and DSRIs that these two clowns rightly complain about.

But to then take the leap that a better understanding of brain chemistry isn't a laudable method or goal for improving the lives of millions is ludicrous in the extreme.

I can handle a lot of arguing. I can even handle talking to idiots until I am blue i the face, but what I absolutely can't stand is when one side of a debate literally accuses the other of doing the exact thing that they are doing. It's such a low blow. Basing an argument on fact is not bending the will of the universe to fit my view of the world. Arguing against it is DOING EXACTLY THAT!


You can see their argument hit a dead end a while ago and they don't even realize it! :-) They can only fall back on a few worn out cliches [/B]and devolve into childish insults and egoic delusions of grandeur like the laughable Spartan analogy used to prop themselves up in self-righteous martydom!

The sad part is, the few good points they do have get snowed under by the rigidity and almost mean-spirited conviction that they are 'RIGHT' no matter what anyone else says ... Not even more subtle and detailed perspectives can get in and shed any light in such minds that are as fixed in stone from the out set. What a pity.

if providing a direct quote from the APA is a worn out cliche to you, than this hole argument is pointless. You and I actually agree alot. You are one of the more intelligent people in this thread, but If you can overlook something as important as the association of Doctors specialized in what we are talking about saying that the facts just aren't there as a worn out cliche than You are just one can short.

I MEAN CHRIST ALLMIGHTY! Jesus himself would be turning tables over at the next APA conference for making money off of people's pain. it is imperative that people deal with whatever is depressing them head on. This fake science gives them an out.

And that is what this is really about. It is too scary for some to face whatever trauma so upcomes this b.s and they are free from ever having to take a hard look at uncle lesters penis.

Why am I the person with the dead argument? My argument is far from dead.

What is dead is logic and courage by some here.

OABB
06-24-2009, 10:52 PM
Once again you show your stupidity. Not all cancer is involves tumors... Try Lukemia.

And not all tumors are malignant... some are benign.

See science is a little more complicated than 1+1=2... probably why you aren't any good at it.





and yet the standard treatment for this disorder is through medication based on this theory... again maybe the science is beyond your abilities.




Again, (read it slowly this time) no one on this thread but you is talking about the implications of this medication and children. Believe it or not Einstien there are MANY medications in this world that carry different risk levels and warnings for children than they do for adults. That doesn't mean the disease to be treated is imaginary.

and by the way... According to this study you are wrong (again)

The Relationship Between Antidepressant Prescription Rates and Rate of Early Adolescent Suicide

Robert D. Gibbons, Ph.D., Kwan Hur, Ph.D., Dulal K. Bhaumik, Ph.D., and J. John Mann, M.D.

OBJECTIVE: In 2002, 264 children and adolescents ages 5–14 died by suicide in the United States, the fifth leading cause of death. Of these suicides, 260 were in the 10–14 year age group, making suicide the third largest cause of death behind accidents and malignancy. Although 60% of suicides in the general population occur in the midst of a mood disorder, usually untreated, little is known about the relationship between treatment of mood disorders and youth suicide. The FDA recently linked adverse event reports of suicidal ideation among children and adolescents in randomized controlled trials to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and consequently required a change in labeling that included a black box warning regarding SSRI use for all age groups. Given that the age-adjusted suicide rate is about six times higher in 15–19 year olds compared with 10–14 year olds, the risk-benefit ratio may be different in younger children. Therefore, this study examined the association between antidepressant medication prescription rate and suicide rate in children ages 5–14 prior to the FDA findings by analyzing associations at the county level across the United States. METHOD: National county-level suicide rate data among children ages 5–14 were broken down by sex, income, and race during the period 1996–1998. National county-level antidepressant prescription rate data were expressed as number of pills prescribed per person. The primary outcome measure was the suicide rate in each county expressed as number of suicides for a given population size. RESULTS: After adjustment for sex, race, income, access to mental health care, and county-to-county variability in suicide rates, higher SSRI prescription rates were associated with lower suicide rates in children and adolescents. CONCLUSIONS: The aggregate nature of these observational data precludes a direct causal interpretation of the results. More SSRI prescriptions are associated with lower suicide rates in children and may reflect antidepressant efficacy, treatment compliance, better quality mental health care, and low toxicity in the event of a suicide attempt by overdose.

oh...Well than forget that hole pesky multi-billion dollar lawsuit that single handedly outlawed the prescription of ssri's to children under 18 because it increased suicidal thoughts and suicides.

I guess that legal team, the judge, the FDA and the 100's of family members that sued, and won the court case have got some 'splainin to do!

Your above posted paragraph makes that whole thing go away.

Well done.

perhaps you could find me a study where bullets fired directly into the brain don't always kill people. I think people need to know that taking a speeding bullet to the head doesn't neccessarily mean disaster.


Oh and this is for the FDA:

please remove those black box warnings off of all your SSRI's that say that children under 18 aren't allowed to take them because they will make them kill themselves because Thedave has found a study showing that this isn't the case.

On behalf of all the parents, the legal team, the APA and the US government we would like to offer you an apology and recoup whatever costs went into printing those ****ING LABELS ON EVERY ****ING BOTTLE BECAUSE OF THE OVERWELMING EVIDENCE THAT THEY MADE TEENS ****ING BLOW THEIR BRAINS OUT.

thanks.

TheDave
06-25-2009, 08:33 AM
oh...Well than forget that hole pesky multi-billion dollar lawsuit that single handedly outlawed the prescription of ssri's to children under 18 because it increased suicidal thoughts and suicides.

I guess that legal team, the judge, the FDA and the 100's of family members that sued, and won the court case have got some 'splainin to do!

Your above posted paragraph makes that whole thing go away.

Well done.

perhaps you could find me a study where bullets fired directly into the brain don't always kill people. I think people need to know that taking a speeding bullet to the head doesn't neccessarily mean disaster.


Oh and this is for the FDA:

please remove those black box warnings off of all your SSRI's that say that children under 18 aren't allowed to take them because they will make them kill themselves because Thedave has found a study showing that this isn't the case.

On behalf of all the parents, the legal team, the APA and the US government we would like to offer you an apology and recoup whatever costs went into printing those ****ING LABELS ON EVERY ****ING BOTTLE BECAUSE OF THE OVERWELMING EVIDENCE THAT THEY MADE TEENS ****ING BLOW THEIR BRAINS OUT.

thanks.

and yet a year later they reversed their opinion and allowed Prozac to be perscribed to children... Look it up.

Do you ever get tired of being uninfomed?

OABB
06-25-2009, 11:00 AM
and yet a year later they reversed their opinion and allowed Prozac to be perscribed to children... Look it up.

Do you ever get tired of being uninfomed?

Do you ever get tired of arguing against all reason and logic and fact because you can't deal with the fact that you are a loser.


"The FDA requires all antidepressants, including fluoxetine(prozac), to carry a black box warning stating that antidepressants may increase the risk of suicide in persons younger than 25. This warning is based on statistical analyses conducted by two independent groups of the FDA experts that found a 2-fold increase of the suicidal ideation and behavior in children and adolescents, and 1.5-fold increase of suicidality in the 18–24 age group. The suicidality was slightly decreased for those older than 24, and statistically significantly lower in the 65 and older group."

I guess the fact that it's legal to prescribe these horrible drugs that are proven to make you want to blow your ****ing brains out means that all that nonsense regarding warnings aren't true.

Do you work for the tobacco company? You should. They are looking for people just like you.

OABB
06-25-2009, 11:09 AM
and yet a year later they reversed their opinion and allowed Prozac to be perscribed to children... Look it up.

Do you ever get tired of being uninfomed?

It is obvious to all here that you have some real tight clutches in denial land. What is so scary for you?

Do you want to talk about it?

any one who took psych 101 would see that you are exhibiting classic defensive behavior.

Look, I am sorry that your loser life has made you feel like a loser. I wish there really was some magic pill you could take that would make all those terrible memories go away.

But it won't. I know you want so foolishly to believe that you have brainworm, but you don't

You are just a loser, a depressed and pathetic loser who is nothing more than a coward.

You don't have the balls. You aren't cut out for this life.

You are a loser. A real life loser.


Face it.

Let go of the denial and defensiveness.

Accept that you will always be depressed because your life is depressing.

and that of course, you are real loser.

sakuraba
06-25-2009, 11:18 AM
and a few more...

Cheetham SC, Crompton MR, Czudek C, Horton RW, Katona CL, Reynolds GP.
Serotonin concentrations and turnover in brains of depressed suicides.
Brain Res 1989 Nov 20;502(2):332-40
"5-Hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) concentrations and 5-HT turnover (5-HIAA/5-HT) were determined in 6 brain regions from 19 suicide victims in whom a retrospective diagnosis of depression was established, and 19 age- and sex-matched control subjects. Thirteen of the suicides were free of psychoactive drugs at the time of death; 5 were receiving antidepressant drugs. 5-HT, 5-HIAA and 5-HT turnover did not differ significantly between the total, drug-free and antidepressant-treated suicides and controls in frontal and temporal cortex, caudate and hippocampus. 5-HIAA concentration was significantly higher in amygdala of drug-free suicides than controls, whereas 5-HT and 5-HT turnover did not differ. 5-HT concentration was significantly lower in putamen of the total and antidepressant-treated suicides and a similar reduction was also apparent in the drug-free suicides. 5-HT turnover in putamen was significantly higher in the total and drug-free suicides compared to controls. 5-HT and 5-HIAA concentrations in putamen were significantly lower in drug-free suicides who died by non-violent means than in those who died by violent means. Differences between controls and suicides could not be attributed to age, sex or postmortem delay. These results offer no support for the view that 5-HT turnover is reduced in depressed subjects who commit suicide." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2479456&dopt=Abstract)


Owen F, Chambers DR, Cooper SJ, Crow TJ, Johnson JA, Lofthouse R, Poulter M.
Serotonergic mechanisms in brains of suicide victims.
Brain Res 1986 Jan 1;362(1):185-8
"Serotonergic mechanisms have been investigated in postmortem brain samples from controls and suicide victims. The concentrations of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin; 5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) were determined in occipital cortex and hippocampus and the high-affinity binding of ligands to the 5-HT1, 5-HT2 and imipramine-binding sites was assessed in frontal cortex, occipital cortex and hippocampus. The only significant difference between the two groups was a modest increase in 5-HIAA levels in the hippocampus of suicide victims. There was no evidence to suggest that those suicide victims with a clinical history of depression represented a subgroup with altered metabolite levels or binding values. The storage conditions of the samples were not related to the metabolite levels or binding values. There was, however, a significant positive correlation between [3H]imipramine binding and age in some brain regions. The results do not provide any evidence of gross alterations in 5-HT mechanisms in suicide or depression." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2417665&dopt=Abstract)


Roy A, Pickar D, Linnoila M, Doran AR, Paul SM.
Cerebrospinal fluid monoamine and monoamine metabolite levels and the dexamethasone suppression test in depression. Relationship to life events.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 1986 Apr;43(4):356-60
"The cerebrospinal fluid levels of norepinephrine and six monoamine metabolites were measured in 23 patients meeting DSM-III criteria for major depressive episode, 15 of whom also met criteria for melancholia. Life events during the six-month period before the onset of depression were recorded using Paykel's method. There was no difference in Hamilton depression ratings between patients with life events and those without. However, depressed patients who did not have a life event in the six months before the onset of depression had significantly lower levels of the dopamine metabolite homovanillic acid and the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid than those with life events. The incidence of nonsuppression on the dexamethasone suppression test was also greater in patients with a major depressive episode who did not have an undesirable life event than in those who did. Thus, the presence or absence of life events led to a separation into biologically distinct groups." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2420302&dopt=Abstract)


Westrin A, Nimeus A.
The dexamethasone suppression test and CSF-5-HIAA in relation to suicidality and depression in suicide attempters.
Eur Psychiatry. 2003 Jun;18(4):166-71.
"This study tested suicidality in relation to cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and the dexamethasone suppression test. Patients with nonsuppression of cortisol had the highest scores of the Suicide Assessment Scale (SUAS) and the Montgomery Asberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS), respectively (P < 0.05; P < 0.01). The results persisted when analysed for covariance with CSF-5-HIAA. We have previously noted an elevated suicide risk in suicide attempters with high SUAS-scores, why a large part of nonsuppressors may be at high risk for future suicide." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12814849)


Geracioti TD Jr, Loosen PT, Ekhator NN, Schmidt D, Chambliss B, Baker DG, Kasckow JW, Richtand NM, Keck PE Jr, Ebert MH.
Uncoupling of serotonergic and noradrenergic systems in depression: preliminary evidence from continuous cerebrospinal fluid sampling.
Depress Anxiety 1997;6(3):89-94
"We used the technique of continuous cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) sampling to test the following hypotheses regarding CNS monoaminergic systems in depression: (1) absolute concentrations of the informational substances tryptophan and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) are altered in the CNS of depressed patients (2) abnormal rhythms of tryptophan and/or 5-HIAA, or defective conversion of tryptophan to serotonin (5HT), exist in the CNS of depressed patients, and (3) the relationship between the CNS 5HT and norepinephrine (NE) systems is disrupted in depressed patients. We obtained 6-h concentration time series of tryptophan, 5-HIAA, NE, and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) in the CSF of 10 patients with major depression and in 10 normal volunteers. No significant differences in CSF tryptophan, 5-HIAA, NE, or MHPG concentrations or rhythms were observed between normal volunteers and depressed patients. Neither were there differences in the mean tryptophan-to-serotonin ratio. However, a negative linear relationship was observed between mean concentrations of 5-HIAA and NE in the CSF of the normal volunteers (r = 0.916 [r2 = 0.839], df = 9, P < 0.001) while, in contrast, depressed patients showed no such relationship (r = +0.094 [r2 = 0.00877], df = 9, n.s.). Furthermore, the correlation coefficients expressing the relationship between CSF MHPG and CSF 5-HIAA within the normal and depressed groups were significantly different. These data support the hypothesis that a disturbance in the interaction between the serotonergic and noradrenergic systems can exist in depressive illness in the absence of any simple 5HT or NE deficit or surplus." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9442982&dopt=Abstract)



Roy A, Pickar D, Linnoila M, Doran AR, Ninan P, Paul SM.
Cerebrospinal fluid monoamine and monoamine metabolite concentrations in melancholia.
Psychiatry Res 1985 Aug;15(4):281-92
"Cerebrospinal fluid levels of norepinephrine and six monoamine metabolites were measured in 28 medication-free depressed patients. Patients with a major depressive episode with melancholia (n = 15) had significantly lower levels of the three dopamine metabolites: homovanillic acid (HVA), dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC), and conjugated dihydroxyphenylacetic (CONJDOPAC), when compared with a combined group of patients with a major depressive episode or dysthymic disorder (n = 13). In patients with major depressive episode with melancholia, levels of HVA and of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid significantly correlated with the severity of depression. In the total group of 28 depressed patients, cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) levels of norepinephrine significantly correlated with symptoms of anxiety. In both patients with major depressive episode and major depressive episode with melancholia, those who were non-suppressors on the dexamethasone suppression test had significantly higher CSF levels of the norepinephrine metabolite 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol compared to those who were suppressors." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2415996&dopt=Abstract)


Koslow SH, Maas JW, Bowden CL, Davis JM, Hanin I, Javaid J.
CSF and urinary biogenic amines and metabolites in depression and mania. A controlled, univariate analysis.
Arch Gen Psychiatry 1983 Sep;40(9):999-1010
"Levels of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), homovanillic acid (HVA), and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) in the CSF, and norepinephrine (NE), epinephrine (E), vanillylmandelic acid, normetanephrine, metanephrine, and MHPG in the urine, were measured in 151 hospitalized patients with affective disorders and in 80 healthy controls following a two-week drug-free period. Unipolar and bipolar depressed subjects differed only in NE and E levels. Compared with controls, depressed subjects had higher CSF MHPG levels, women had higher 5-HIAA levels, and men had lower HVA levels. All urinary metabolites were elevated in depression and mania, with the exception of MHPG. The patterns of NE-E differences discriminated among the forms of affective disorders. These data suggest an imbalance of monoamine transmission in depression, characterized by the hyperactive sympathetic nervous system and adrenal medulla. However, MHPG may not be the measure of choice to reflect this imbalance, necessitating measurement of total body monoamine output." [Abstract] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6193764&dopt=Abstract)


Did you even read any of these studies? Or just look at the titles and then cut and paste. You are completely devoid of any understanding of science or logic or reason. You really need to go back to school starting at the eigth grade.

First, there really are too many "mays" "can" "possibly".

Second you need to come up with something a little more recent than 20 year old studies that were talking about may be. No follow up proven results.

Third in the most recent, which are still some 10 years old, again nothing proven.

Let's try one last time at logic - To say that you find a certain kind of chemistry in a stressed person does not in and of itself indicate causality. A scientist knows this and does not make the ignorant mistake of claiming it does. You will also find interesting brain chemistry in someone who was in a car accident but that does not mean that the chemistry caused their injuries.

See that's your fundamental error. You confuse existence of something with causality, they are very different. An educated person can see this.

OABB
06-25-2009, 12:09 PM
Did you even read any of these studies? Or just look at the titles and then cut and paste. You are completely devoid of any understanding of science or logic or reason. You really need to go back to school starting at the eigth grade.

First, there really are too many "mays" "can" "possibly".

Second you need to come up with something a little more recent than 20 year old studies that were talking about may be. No follow up proven results.

Third in the most recent, which are still some 10 years old, again nothing proven.

Let's try one last time at logic - To say that you find a certain kind of chemistry in a stressed person does not in and of itself indicate causality. A scientist knows this and does not make the ignorant mistake of claiming it does. You will also find interesting brain chemistry in someone who was in a car accident but that does not mean that the chemistry caused their injuries.

See that's your fundamental error. You confuse existence of something with causality, they are very different. An educated person can see this.


I really really am perplexed at how this fundamental truth is just casually overlooked.

I even had to whip out the CAPSLOCK last night in my response to HULA.


It is literally the same as a doctor reading the blood oxygen levels of a beheaded corpse and saying that the lack of oxygen is what killed them.

of course he is a doctor, so he must be right.

Idiocracy.

alkemical
06-25-2009, 12:23 PM
It is obvious to all here that you have some real tight clutches in denial land. What is so scary for you?

Do you want to talk about it?

any one who took psych 101 would see that you are exhibiting classic defensive behavior.

Look, I am sorry that your loser life has made you feel like a loser. I wish there really was some magic pill you could take that would make all those terrible memories go away.

But it won't. I know you want so foolishly to believe that you have brainworm, but you don't

You are just a loser, a depressed and pathetic loser who is nothing more than a coward.

You don't have the balls. You aren't cut out for this life.

You are a loser. A real life loser.


Face it.

Let go of the denial and defensiveness.

Accept that you will always be depressed because your life is depressing.

and that of course, you are real loser.


and anyone that knows communication knows you are just using poisoning the well tactics as well as ad-hominem attacks to lay claim to a position of yours, that isn't even fact.

TheDave
06-25-2009, 12:39 PM
Do you ever get tired of arguing against all reason and logic and fact because you can't deal with the fact that you are a loser.


"The FDA requires all antidepressants, including fluoxetine(prozac), to carry a black box warning stating that antidepressants may increase the risk of suicide in persons younger than 25. This warning is based on statistical analyses conducted by two independent groups of the FDA experts that found a 2-fold increase of the suicidal ideation and behavior in children and adolescents, and 1.5-fold increase of suicidality in the 18–24 age group. The suicidality was slightly decreased for those older than 24, and statistically significantly lower in the 65 and older group."

So, they allow prozac, only one of many ssris, to be given to children now!


Hooray!

I sure hope there are parents out there that aren't as weak and idiotic as you.

Hey psycho, you are the one that said they banned all of them in Europe... I just showed you that you were wrong. AGAIN.

OABB
06-25-2009, 12:41 PM
and anyone that knows communication knows you are just using poisoning the well tactics as well as ad-hominem attacks to lay claim to a position of yours, that isn't even fact.

Anyone that knows communication knows that I am trying everything to get those of you lost in the land of make believe and brainworms to come to grips with reality.

I lost a friend to "Depression" He was medicated from the time he was thirteen and always talked about his terrible brain chemistry.

Of course, those of us that knew him well, figured that his depression stemmed form his abusive upbringing and the loss of his grandfather to whom he was very close.

Maybe I can seem like a dick at times, but this is nothing to **** around with.

Denial will get you killed. dead. at your own hands. You just choose the pace.


It was at his death that I begin to research this stuff, and lo and behold I found a world full of idiots that believe this ****.

You yourself talk just like him.


"I have bouts of depression" You refer to your brain as if it is a whole other entity outside of yourself.

Than you "casually" mention your father dying as if that is just another topic of conversation...


It's right there, my man. You are on the fence with this thread. I know it. Just take that leap.


All you have to do is realize that losing a parent at 7 would make you depressed. It would make ANYONE depressed.

That is the cause to your effect.

It's not your beaker of brain chemicals...


Jesus. Your smarter than this man.


Now thedave, he is a worthless idiot. He has no hope. His brain may actually be damaged, but yours isn't.

I see my friend ELI all across this board and I feel like yelling at anyone that sounds like him, because they are literally destroying their brains.

I have supplied the evidence, there is more out there.

The meds will drive you crazy.

The theory is flawed.

Thinking that your Father's death has less impact on you than your double helix is FLAWED THINKING.


Seriously man.

You know it. I know you know it.

TheDave
06-25-2009, 12:41 PM
It is obvious to all here that you have some real tight clutches in denial land. What is so scary for you?

Do you want to talk about it?

any one who took psych 101 would see that you are exhibiting classic defensive behavior.

Look, I am sorry that your loser life has made you feel like a loser. I wish there really was some magic pill you could take that would make all those terrible memories go away.

But it won't. I know you want so foolishly to believe that you have brainworm, but you don't

You are just a loser, a depressed and pathetic loser who is nothing more than a coward.

You don't have the balls. You aren't cut out for this life.

You are a loser. A real life loser.


Face it.

Let go of the denial and defensiveness.

Accept that you will always be depressed because your life is depressing.

and that of course, you are real loser.

Wow... A bunch of name calling.

Excellent argument!

OABB
06-25-2009, 12:43 PM
Hey psycho, you are the one that said they banned all of them in Europe... I just showed you that you were wrong. AGAIN.

They were banned dip****. You showed me a "reversal" of one drug a yeear after the fact.

What I said was NOT WRONG IDIOT!

seriously. Are you really serious?

Are you really really this stupid?

I mean has the worm destroyed your brain this bad?


What I said was correct. If they want to put kids on prozac even after it is proven to increase the risk of suicide than they deserve to lose their kids.

That doesn't make the facts dissapear.

OABB
06-25-2009, 12:44 PM
Wow... A bunch of name calling.

Excellent argument!

thanks ****FACE!

TheDave
06-25-2009, 12:47 PM
They were banned dip****. You showed me a "reversal" of one drug a yeear after the fact.

What I said was NOT WRONG IDIOT!

seriously. Are you really serious?

Are you really really this stupid?

I mean has the worm destroyed your brain this bad?


What I said was correct. If they want to put kids on prozac even after it is proven to increase the risk of suicide than they deserve to lose their kids.

That doesn't make the facts dissapear.

The fact that you said they are all banned... they are not.

In fact the European board you cited recomends a 10 mg dose to children under 15 years up to 20 mg... and holy ****, wait for it... this is for the treatment of depression.

So once again it seems that there is more to this that "If your depressed your life is depressing"

TheDave
06-25-2009, 12:49 PM
thanks ****FACE!


I have to admit I'm getting a kick out of making you dance...

But for the betterment of the board I'm out of here. You've proven for several pages now all you have left is name calling.

Have fun. :welcome:

alkemical
06-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Anyone that knows communication knows that I am trying everything to get those of you lost in the land of make believe and brainworms to come to grips with reality.

I lost a friend to "Depression" He was medicated from the time he was thirteen and always talked about his terrible brain chemistry.

Of course, those of us that knew him well, figured that his depression stemmed form his abusive upbringing and the loss of his grandfather to whom he was very close.

Maybe I can seem like a dick at times, but this is nothing to **** around with.

Denial will get you killed. dead. at your own hands. You just choose the pace.


It was at his death that I begin to research this stuff, and lo and behold I found a world full of idiots that believe this ****.

You yourself talk just like him.


"I have bouts of depression" You refer to your brain as if it is a whole other entity outside of yourself.

Than you "casually" mention your father dying as if that is just another topic of conversation...


It's right there, my man. You are on the fence with this thread. I know it. Just take that leap.


All you have to do is realize that losing a parent at 7 would make you depressed. It would make ANYONE depressed.

That is the cause to your effect.

It's not your beaker of brain chemicals...


Jesus. Your smarter than this man.


Now thedave, he is a worthless idiot. He has no hope. His brain may actually be damaged, but yours isn't.

I see my friend ELI all across this board and I feel like yelling at anyone that sounds like him, because they are literally destroying their brains.

I have supplied the evidence, there is more out there.

The meds will drive you crazy.

The theory is flawed.

Thinking that your Father's death has less impact on you than your double helix is FLAWED THINKING.


Seriously man.

You know it. I know you know it.

Dude, i've been over my dad's death since i was 11 - and with the history of the mental illness on my dad's side - suggests far more a genetic situation than anything else. But since you know me, and have done a clinical evaluation, you know everything right?

Maybe it's not everyone else who is stupid, maybe it's you - since you do nothing but resort to name calling and asinine behaviour.

Until you grow up, i have no further use in talking with you.

Your evidence is nothing more than conjecture since you won't accept anything that invalidates your point of view. You are dogmatic in your thinking. I've already acknowledged that environment plays a factor in many people, but not all people.

But again, you won't listen to any form of reason.

Go run along and insult some people some more, it really shows how smart you are.

OABB
06-25-2009, 12:55 PM
I have to admit I'm getting a kick out of making you dance...

But for the betterment of the board I'm out of here. You've proven for several pages now all you have left is name calling.

Have fun. :welcome:

You are a river to your people. Unfortunately it is the L.A. river and there is a hobo defecating in it.

All I have left for you is name calling. Because you are big fat stupy head. Your brain literally functions like LEX.

This is reminding me of the Lex Kobe argument I got into with him.

Even after I found video of Kobe hitting huge shots, he would change his stance and say things like"but did he do it without shaq" when that video was posted, he went on to talk about how Kobe dissapeared the rest of the series.

You are the same.

Your argument changes line by line.

As long as I talk to you you are a ****face ********** ****balling ****wad.

OABB
06-25-2009, 01:00 PM
Dude, i've been over my dad's death since i was 11 - and with the history of the mental illness on my dad's side - suggests far more a genetic situation than anything else. But since you know me, and have done a clinical evaluation, you know everything right?

Maybe it's not everyone else who is stupid, maybe it's you - since you do nothing but resort to name calling and asinine behaviour.

Until you grow up, i have no further use in talking with you.

I am done here.

Congrats on getting over your dad's death at 11 years old. I am sure there is no level of denial there....HMMMMMMMMMM>>>>NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!



I am sure not having a father effected you WAAAAAYYYYYY less than those pesky genes....

You are a lost cause. Wow, it's sad. A good friend of mine once said that the brighter you are the harder it is to overcome denial because you can convince yourself of almost anything and in a reasonable manner.

he was right.


Enjoy your happy life.

alkemical
06-25-2009, 01:07 PM
I am done here.

Congrats on getting over your dad's death at 11 years old. I am sure there is no level of denial there....HMMMMMMMMMM>>>>NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!



I am sure not having a father effected you WAAAAAYYYYYY less than those pesky genes....

You are a lost cause. Wow, it's sad. A good friend of mine once said that the brighter you are the harder it is to overcome denial because you can convince yourself of almost anything and in a reasonable manner.

he was right.


Enjoy your happy life.



Have you done a clinical study on me? Do you know me? Can you answer as to anything about me?

If you say no, then you've just proven the point everyone here has said. That you are a dogmatic person when it comes to this topic. Without any information, interviews, research - you cannot have any diagnosis or principle in evaluation of my mental health. This defeats any "science" you claim, esp. when passing any judgements towards myself.

I do have a happy life. It's even better when i realize i don't have a-holes like you in it. :)

OABB
06-25-2009, 03:08 PM
Have you done a clinical study on me? Do you know me? Can you answer as to anything about me?

If you say no, then you've just proven the point everyone here has said. That you are a dogmatic person when it comes to this topic. Without any information, interviews, research - you cannot have any diagnosis or principle in evaluation of my mental health. This defeats any "science" you claim, esp. when passing any judgements towards myself.

I do have a happy life. It's even better when i realize i don't have a-holes like you in it. :)

I have an IQ over that of a sponge. That's all it takes to see through your B.S.

I am positive that you are the only one that believes your B.S. in regards to your Father.

the only one.





.