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worm
06-17-2009, 01:03 PM
Long post. Sorry.

At this point, I could care less about Cutler, Marshall, the Goodmans or any past or future disgruntled employee of the Broncos. For the purpose of this thread, what I care about is that the foundation of a stable front office is in place to allow the Broncos to be rebuilt and achieve success.

There are many reasons why corporations\teams succeed, however there is a much shorter list of reasons of why they fail. I am curious how ya’ll would rate the 2009 Broncos front office against five of these factors that dramatically hinder the success of a company\team

Here are five factors and my observations.

1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities
What is the current division of power in the front office? The buck might stop with Pat but are the lines clearly drawn between each job? Comments to the media do not seem to accurately reflect the roles that are being assumed. For instance, Bowlen is on record saying that ‘Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations’. Yet in every case this off-season it appears to be Bowlen and McDaniels that are leading. Sometimes at different times for similar situations. If it is not understood by the media, I have a tough time believing that it is not equally hard for the entire organization.

2) Poor communication
As a result of unclear roles and responsibilities, it appears that messages communicated from the front office to player reps and the media are conflicting or misunderstood. This front office seems incapable of communicating a consistent message.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
McDaniels, Xanders and Bowlen are all acting in roles that are new to them. Two of them also being very young. McDaniels in particular has never had experience working in an unstable organizational structure.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This front office has set policy then had their actions immediately contradict it. Repeatedly. The Goodmans stay…then they go. Cutler stays…then he goes. Each case you might be able to explain away but looking at the entire body of work this off-season, the front office appears to be very reactive. Their strategy seems predicated on what others do, rather than on what they set themselves.


5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
Both Cutler and Marshall have requested a change of scenery. You can lay it on the doorstep of the agent or the player but ultimately the more this happens the more you have to look inward at the organization.

Ask yourself the question...Is Denver appealing right now to highly sought after FAs? It used to be. It was once a prestigious place to play and often sited as a reason for why a FA signed here.


Blame each episode of drama this off-season on the player, the agent or another external source. However, until this front office is stabilized and acts as a cohesive unit, the only thing that will be consistant is that issues will continue to occur.

Accountability starts at the top. At this point I believe that any success the 2009 Broncos have on the field will be in spite of the front office and not due to it.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Easy now, Veruca. They haven't even played a down yet.

worm
06-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Easy now, Veruca. They haven't even played a down yet.

Not about playing. Its about the front office. Plenty of material here to evaluate its performance on the factors I am talking about.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Not about playing. Its about the front office. Plenty of material here to evaluate its performance on the factors I am talking about.

You are evaluating there evaluation before the product can even be evaluated. If Cutler goes out completes 55% of his passes for 2300 yards 16 TD's and 16 ints is this a good trade?

worm
06-17-2009, 01:17 PM
You are evaluating there evaluation before the product can even be evaluated. If Cutler goes out completes 55% of his passes for 2300 yards 16 TD's and 16 ints is this a good trade?

Even if they hit gold on every single trade, I am saying that this FO, to date, has been ineffective based on the five factors I named.

How do you think the FO has performed against these criteria?

Now if you don't think these are important factors in determining the success of teams...that is another thing.

bpc
06-17-2009, 01:19 PM
Worm, you beat me to it. I was actually responding to Popps in the "Bailey gets cut" thread and I posted a lot of crazy info about similarities between the acquisitions last year under Shanahan now this offseason with McDaniels. I'll copy here:

Wrong what, Muff?

He was a bloody disaster and the perfect example of just how inept the prior admin. was at solving these problems.

Worst defense in the league.... the answer? Boss Bailey.

Hilarious!

The ****ing guy was injured on the FIRST PLAY of pre-season.

He's a total joke. Detroit fans told us he was a joke, and was soft. He came in here and proved it immediately.

Anyone can be "picked up." That doesn't mean ****, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should be playing games with this fragile ****. This should have happened much earlier. It's probably only out of respect to Champ that it didn't.

I think you phrased it wrong. He was a good, young player when healthy. He actually played very well when he was on the field through the game at KC from what I saw. I would say he had size, range and took on blocks fairly well.

The label given in Detroit was that he was fragile and has a history of injuries which turned out to be true, like most predicted.

The previous staff is guilty of believing in him. Last offseason was an abomination in terms of FA talent but we still haven't figured out why didn't make bigger plays for better personnel despite having some money on hand.

A note that has made rounds this year and was being rumored last year is that Bowlen was cash strapped and Shanny had to do things on the cheap. One could say with 30 million to spend this offseason, the same thing transpired. Hill, Goodman, Dawkins are all either old, over the hill and overrated compared with the contracts they signed. We could be saying the same thing next offseason that we are saying this offseason about the players we just signed which leaves a big arrow pointing to Bowlen as the real problem here. He can't and won't compete in a spending competition with other NFL owners. Good ol' daddy warbucks is running out of cash and the promises he made to Bronco fans about building him a stadium 10 years ago so he can compete in a growing free agent market are completely untrue.

We're possibly heading towards being the Clippers on the NFL.

Look at all the signs:

- Shanny's huge contract replaced by a 32 year old 1st time head coach. Shanny was making what, 7 million? McDaniels will make 3 million over 3 years? Sure, Bowlen is on the docket for the rest of Mike's contract but he knows that Shanahan will get hired elsewhere within a year and it will be taken off his books.

- Half of the FO was replaced by 1st time people. Col. Zanders? What the **** has he ever done in scouting? His last boss with Atlanta scoffed at the notion that he was hired as GM saying he's never been out scouting on the road in his life. He's a numbers cruncher, a cap manager.

- Numerous other scouts released, including media staff.

- Jay Cutler and his potential mega contract was traded away. In this market, with Cutler growing the way he is in terms of talent, popularity and exposure, he'll probably be signing over a 100 million dollar contract with a signing bonus NORTH of 30 million.

- Brandon Marshall's wish to be traded will be granted per his agent as said by Bowlen. He's another guy due to get a significant raise.

- Number 1 draft pick, surely now a top 5 pick, TRADED for pennies on the dollar. 30-40 million guaranteed although i'm estimating and I haven't seen how last year projected vs. this year to get a true figure. Speculation is rampant that Bowlen doesn't believe in paying top 10 players that much and considers it a poor investment.

We are seeing WHOLESALE changes with the way this franchise is being run by Bowlen. It's a progressive movement charted by Joe Ellis, aka WORMSWORD from the LOTR's trilogy, moving towards efficient business vs. a competitive one in a 32 team market which comprises the NFL.

We're in for some long, lean years boys and girls. Bowlen is passing this stupidity off as short term memory loss but he knows what the hell he is doing. McDaniels is merely a scapegoat. He's trimming the budget down as much as he can and basically damning the fans to subpar football by their favorite team.

I for one am not spending another dollar on the Broncos until I seen a change is the way we are running things and doing business. I vote with my money and this whole **** storm Bowlen is throwing us into is completely unacceptable. I buy jerseys, kids stuff, wife stuff, tickets, go on road trips to Denver and for what? To see Bowlen reap the reward of my money and not even try to make my team a winner? **** that.

Traveler
06-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Long post. Sorry.

At this point, I could care less about Cutler, Marshall, the Goodmans or any past or future disgruntled employee of the Broncos. For the purpose of this thread, what I care about is that the foundation of a stable front office is in place to allow the Broncos to be rebuilt and achieve success.

There are many reasons why corporations\teams succeed, however there is a much shorter list of reasons of why they fail. I am curious how ya’ll would rate the 2009 Broncos front office against five of these factors that dramatically hinder the success of a company\team

Here are five factors and my observations.

1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities
What is the current division of power in the front office? The buck might stop with Pat but are the lines clearly drawn between each job? Comments to the media do not seem to accurately reflect the roles that are being assumed. For instance, Bowlen is on record saying that ‘Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations’. Yet in every case this off-season it appears to be Bowlen and McDaniels that are leading. Sometimes at different times for similar situations. If it is not understood by the media, I have a tough time believing that it is not equally hard for the entire organization.

2) Poor communication
As a result of unclear roles and responsibilities, it appears that messages communicated from the front office to player reps and the media are conflicting or misunderstood. This front office seems incapable of communicating a consistent message.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
McDaniels, Xanders and Bowlen are all acting in roles that are new to them. Two of them also being very young. McDaniels in particular has never had experience working in an unstable organizational structure.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This front office has set policy then had their actions immediately contradict it. Repeatedly. The Goodmans stay…then they go. Cutler stays…then he goes. Each case you might be able to explain away but looking at the entire body of work this off-season, the front office appears to be very reactive. Their strategy seems predicated on what others do, rather than on what they set themselves.


5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
Both Cutler and Marshall have requested a change of scenery. You can lay it on the doorstep of the agent or the player but ultimately the more this happens the more you have to look inward at the organization.

Ask yourself the question...Is Denver appealing right now to highly sought after FAs? It used to be. It was once a prestigious place to play and often sited as a reason for why a FA signed here.


Blame each episode of drama this off-season on the player, the agent or another external source. However, until this front office is stabilized and acts as a cohesive unit, the only thing that will be consistant is that issues will continue to occur.

Accountability starts at the top. At this point I believe that any success the 2009 Broncos have on the field will be in spite of the front office and not due to it.

Aren't you making huge assumptions by only basing your observations off what you have read? Who's to say the roles of Bowlen McDaniels, and Xanders aren't being filled just as Pat said? Do you have insider contacts?

Last I checked, most GM's are seen or heard. Just because Xanders name isn't mentioned much does mean his not performing his job.

Have there been missteps? Of course. That's to be expected by those so relatively new to management. One the whole though, the FO has setup a pretty nice foundation for the team moving forward.

worm
06-17-2009, 01:27 PM
Aren't you making huge assumptions by only basing your observations off what you have read? Who's to say the roles of Bowlen McDaniels, and Xanders aren't being fill just as Pat said? Do you have insider contacts?

Last I checked, most GM's are seen or heard. Just because Xanders name isn't mentioned much does mean his not performing his job.

Have there been missteps? Of course. That's to be expected by those so relatively new to management. One the whole though, the FO has setup a pretty nice foundation for the team moving forward.

Of course. That is why I am calling them MY observations. It sounds like you are saying that you believe the roles\responsibilities are clearly defined. That communication is effective. That there is enough experience. That the strategic direction is steady. That there is complete confidence in star players with this organization.

If so...I am seeing something very different. Maybe I am being pessimistic but I see all the leading indicators of a failing team here from the cheap seats. I can only hope you are right and everything the media reports is inaccurate.

Kaylore
06-17-2009, 01:30 PM
I've edited your factors.


1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities to the press and public at large.
You're erroneously concluding that since you don't know the responsibilities and hierarchy then there must not be one. This is like saying your heart doesn't work because it hasn't been explained to you yet. There is a functioning chain of command in place and like all places some of those duties are articulated and some are not. In this case neither has been disclosed. You might disagree with the decisions, but that doesn't mean the model isn't functioning properly.

2) Poor communication to the press and public at large.
They have a right to disclose or not disclose anything they wish. This is more ruffled feathers on new press policies in a regime change. This doesn't mean that internal communication isn't working. Just because we don't know doesn't mean they don't know either.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
This is the first and only one I agree with. Rookie GM and Rookie head coach in the same season is a bit much and no question some of the problems we've had have arisen from both guys stubbing their toes learning their roles and the ramifications therein.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This should be considered a positive. Adjusting to new situations and redirecting your approach after short term obstacles arise is paramount to any kind of success. Their overall strategic direction has not changed. Only their approach has. They have pursued smart, versatile, physically and mentally tough players with good character from the beginning, and every single player and coach they've brought in or kept have met these criteria.


5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
This is a problem with the players, not the leadership. Marshall wants money and Cutler is a whining drunk. That the other players have fallen in line and are excited about this season tells me all I need to.


Accountability starts at the top. At this point I believe that any success the 2009 Broncos have on the field will be in spite of the front office and not due to it.
This is completely ridiculous. More than half the roster is new this season and there will be several new starters and rookies. The coaches that coach the team were put together by the FO as was the entire practice and training schedule. Saying that any success the team has will be in spite of the front office is like saying a car runs in spite of all the gas, oil, and mechanical parts inside. The team has very few Shanahan-era fingerprints on it left anymore. This also means it's failings can be pinned on the new FO as well.

worm
06-17-2009, 01:31 PM
We are seeing WHOLESALE changes with the way this franchise is being run by Bowlen. It's a progressive movement towards efficient business vs. a competitive one in a 32 team market.

We're in for some long years boys. Bowlen is passing this stupidity off as short term memory loss but he knows what the hell he is doing. He's trimming the budget down as much as he can. Damn the fans.

I agree with most all of your post Chris. However on motive...I am not sure this is part of a greater plan by Bowlen to economize as much as it just is a poor business model that he has deployed to replace the Shanny power vacuum.

If you are right, my opinion of Bowlen will remain high. Even if I hate his choice to economize as a fan. If, instead, it is due to his incompetence as a leader, my opinion of him just went into the crapper.

BrainSaladSurgery
06-17-2009, 01:34 PM
Just wondering ..... do Bowlen & McDaniels even speak the same language or realize that they work for the same organization? ROFL!

Popps
06-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Worm, you beat me to it. I was actually responding to Popps in the "Bailey gets cut" thread and I posted a lot of crazy info about similarities between the acquisitions last year under Shanahan now this offseason with McDaniels.

Chris, you know I defended Shanahan for YEARS.

Of course we did a lot of things right under Shanahan.

The simple point was, if this was Shanahan bringing in some of these players, these same widow-types would be calling us Superbowl contenders.

People just want to be unhappy.... so they're going to be.

Traveler
06-17-2009, 01:39 PM
Of course. That is why I am calling them MY observations. It sounds like you are saying that you believe the roles\responsibilities are clearly defined. That communication is effective. That there is enough experience. That the strategic direction is steady. That there is complete confidence in star players with this organization.

If so...I am seeing something very different. Maybe I am being pessimistic but I see all the leading indicators of a failing team here from the cheap seats. I can only hope you are right and everything the media reports is inaccurate.

Wow! The sarcasm is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Maybe we are viewing this from diferent perspectives. There is too little concrete info make a true assement at this time. We've all been so accustomed to the weay Shanahan ran things. Now with the new regime, everyone is having to deal with the change that comes with it.

Not everyone on the team has bought into the new regime yet to be sure. But there aren't any mixed messages being sent by the new FO IMO. Those that want out have their own agenda.

At last count, only two people have asked to leave. That means there are 80+ other who seem to be okay with the new program.

bpc
06-17-2009, 01:48 PM
Chris, you know I defended Shanahan for YEARS.

Of course we did a lot of things right under Shanahan.

The simple point was, if this was Shanahan bringing in some of these players, these same widow-types would be calling us Superbowl contenders.

People just want to be unhappy.... so they're going to be.

I think you speak the voice of McDaniels supporters.

However if you could substitute Shanahan for McDaniels making the exact same moves this offseason, people would be TEARING Mike apart just like we did last season with Bailey, Niko and Colbert.

The guys we have picked up are not that far off the path that Shanahan would have taken however some will now defend because of McNugget where they would have attacked before with Shanahan.

I think Taco said it best when he labelled it "inconsistencies".

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 01:48 PM
At this point, I could care less about Cutler, Marshall, the Goodmans or any past or future disgruntled employee of the Broncos. For the purpose of this thread, what I care about is that the foundation of a stable front office is in place to allow the Broncos to be rebuilt and achieve success.

There are many reasons why corporations\teams succeed, however there is a much shorter list of reasons of why they fail. I am curious how ya’ll would rate the 2009 Broncos front office against five of these factors that dramatically hinder the success of a company\team

Here are five factors and my observations.

1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities
What is the current division of power in the front office? The buck might stop with Pat but are the lines clearly drawn between each job? Comments to the media do not seem to accurately reflect the roles that are being assumed. For instance, Bowlen is on record saying that ‘Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations’. Yet in every case this off-season it appears to be Bowlen and McDaniels that are leading. Sometimes at different times for similar situations. If it is not understood by the media, I have a tough time believing that it is not equally hard for the entire organization.
Definitely ... huge, "unwavering" support for Jim Goodman, suddenly giving way to Goodman getting fired ... then after Jay-gate, Pat says Josh made "rookie mistakes" and that he'll be more "hands on" from this point forward.

No Pat ... it was YOUR job to keep the duties straight, YOUR jabo to keep you wunderkind coach where he belonged - on the field. It's not Josh's fault he was given too much responsibility.


2) Poor communication
As a result of unclear roles and responsibilities, it appears that messages communicated from the front office to player reps and the media are conflicting or misunderstood. This front office seems incapable of communicating a consistent message.

This is true ... but you left out the simplest of all communications, Josh just calling Jay to head off all the nonsense. One call could've maybe stopped all this Cutler-gate:
"Jay? Coach McDaniels here ... listen, we've had a few calls here about whether you'd be available in a trade, a couple teams are interested. We passed of course, but there was some talk of us getting Matt Cassel. Just so you know - you might wanna be ready, there might be some blow-back you'll have to deal with, sorry about that. Hey, see you at mini-camp, okay? Bye for now."


3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
McDaniels, Xanders and Bowlen are all acting in roles that are new to them. Two of them also being very young. McDaniels in particular has never had experience working in an unstable organizational structure ...
... or any management function for that matter.


4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This front office has set policy then had their actions immediately contradict it. Repeatedly. The Goodmans stay…then they go. Cutler stays…then he goes.

Bates too ... gotta wonder how all that went down. Was Pat too weak (inebriated?) to head off this power play?



Blame each episode of drama this off-season on the player, the agent or another external source. However, until this front office is stabilized and acts as a cohesive unit, the only thing that will be consistant is that issues will continue to occur.

Accountability starts at the top. At this point I believe that any success the 2009 Broncos have on the field will be in spite of the front office and not due to it.

Try telling this to the Lil' Hoodie sycophants ...

broncofan2438
06-17-2009, 01:59 PM
You should definitely forward this to Broncos headquarters

Popps
06-17-2009, 02:03 PM
I think you speak the voice of McDaniels supporters.

However if you could substitute Shanahan for McDaniels making the exact same moves this offseason, people would be TEARING Mike apart just like we did last season with Bailey, Niko and Colbert. .

Well, you heard me calling those signings a joke loud and clear last season.

But, I see a distinct difference between guys like Niko K. and Boss Bailey... and Westbrook, the best DE in the draft, etc.

There's also a scheme change and a philosophy change underway. We also hired a real DC, so there's reason to believe some benefit of the doubt might be given to some of these signings until we at least see them on the field.

I don't think we're saying anything all that different. McDaniels and Nolan will do some things wrong. It's just WAY too early for the silly bridge-jumping we've seen around here.

I've been watching this team for 30 years, so I feel like I have a bit of perspective on when to panic and when not to. This is clearly an exciting time to be a fan, whether some people choose to or not.

Popps
06-17-2009, 02:07 PM
And Chris... Boss Bailey isn't anything like P. Hillis.

One was a highly paid bust with a rep of being soft and injury-prone, and not a very good player on top of it.

The other, a great lower-round value who was very productive.

Bailey is EXACTLY the kind of signing that killed Shanahan, whereas he did his better work with middle-lower draft picks, etc.

BrainSaladSurgery
06-17-2009, 02:21 PM
Yeah ..... that Maurice Clarett signing was classic, too. Hilarious!

RaiderH8r
06-17-2009, 02:22 PM
Pat Bowlen the new Bill Bidwell? Fielding a low $ club to maximize tv $ coming into his pocket?

BrainSaladSurgery
06-17-2009, 02:24 PM
Pat Bowlen the new Bill Bidwell? Fielding a low $ club to maximize tv $ coming into his pocket?

**** ..... he's not that smart. Keep polishing that turd - it belongs to a donkey now. LOL

mr007
06-17-2009, 02:31 PM
But, I see a distinct difference between guys like Niko K. and Boss Bailey... and Westbrook, the best DE in the draft, etc.


Do you mean Dawkins?

tonngo0
06-17-2009, 03:49 PM
I've edited your factors.

5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
This is a problem with the players, not the leadership. Marshall wants money and Cutler is a whining drunk. That the other players have fallen in line and are excited about this season tells me all I need to.



This is completely ridiculous. More than half the roster is new this season and there will be several new starters and rookies. The coaches that coach the team were put together by the FO as was the entire practice and training schedule. Saying that any success the team has will be in spite of the front office is like saying a car runs in spite of all the gas, oil, and mechanical parts inside. The team has very few Shanahan-era fingerprints on it left anymore. This also means it's failings can be pinned on the new FO as well.

Yes, well about 1/4 of the roster are McD guys, and the rest of the team other than Cutler, Marshall, and Champ. No GM in the right mind would want them, so they are content being a Broncos. So your argument here is not valid. Other than that, both of you had legit points.

Smiling Assassin27
06-17-2009, 04:20 PM
For instance, Bowlen is on record saying that ‘Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations’. Yet in every case this off-season it appears to be Bowlen and McDaniels that are leading.

The key word is 'appears'. We really don't know who's leading and what role McD and/or Xanders has played thus far. Without full knowledge of this, judgment cannot be made.


As a result of unclear roles and responsibilities, it appears that messages communicated from the front office to player reps and the media are conflicting or misunderstood. This front office seems incapable of communicating a consistent message.


We just showed that the perception of unclear roles does not necessarily mean this is so. Being that you've put communication as a necessary product of roles, and roles cannot be judged due to lack of information, you cannot credibly judge communication either.


McDaniels, Xanders and Bowlen are all acting in roles that are new to them. Two of them also being very young. McDaniels in particular has never had experience working in an unstable organizational structure.


Xanders has 14 previous years in player personnel, coaching and football operations in Atlanta, which has never been the bastion of stability--can you say Bobby Petrino? Has he ever been a GM? No. Neither had Joe Dumars, Ken Holland, Ozzie Newsome, etc. In short, everybody had to start with 'no experience'. Bowlen's role is not new. He had this role when he hired Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan--he was owner then, just like now. McD has never been a head coach, but again, guys like Gruden, Dungy, Wisenhunt, et al never had either and still found success.

This front office has set policy then had their actions immediately contradict it. Repeatedly.

This is not necessarily a reflection of the organization's effectiveness. Situations change. People change. What would be ineffective is refusing to alter one's plans after changes have hit you square in the nuggets.


Both Cutler and Marshall have requested a change of scenery. You can lay it on the doorstep of the agent or the player but ultimately the more this happens the more you have to look inward at the organization.


Cutler and Marshall aside, who has asked for a change? You have 78 players who have not asked for this, and 2 that have. The fact that they're big play stars makes them stick out, to be sure. But an organization must establish an identity--a character that conveys to the league, 'this is Bronco football'. We did it during the Super Bowl years and Shanahan got to walk into a plum job. McD has walked into a dungeon with bad players, bad atttitudes, and bad results. The organization shouldn't have to apologize for establishing its own culture. Players that cannot or will not buy into this culture should be cut loose, plain and simple. They are not Denver Broncos if they will not play Denver Bronco football, IMO. And Denver Broncos football has changed under McD.

Popps
06-17-2009, 04:26 PM
Do you mean Dawkins?

:rofl:

Yea. Funny.

DenverBrit
06-17-2009, 04:27 PM
A lot of negative conjecture from people who have never stepped inside Dove valley, don't have inside sources or NFL experience, but they know what's going on.

Yeah, I know, you can draw factual conclusions based on press reports.



....and yes....that was sarcasm. :)

Traveler
06-17-2009, 04:28 PM
The key word is 'appears'. We really don't know who's leading and what role McD and/or Xanders has played thus far. Without full knowledge of this, judgment cannot be made.




We just showed that the perception of unclear roles does not necessarily mean this is so. Being that you've put communication as a necessary product of roles, and roles cannot be judged due to lack of information, you cannot credibly judge communication either.




Xanders has 14 previous years in player personnel, coaching and football operations in Atlanta, which has never been the bastion of stability--can you say Bobby Petrino? Has he ever been a GM? No. Neither had Joe Dumars, Ken Holland, Ozzie Newsome, etc. In short, everybody had to start with 'no experience'. Bowlen's role is not new. He had this role when he hired Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan--he was owner then, just like now. McD has never been a head coach, but again, guys like Gruden, Dungy, Wisenhunt, et al never had either and still found success.



This is not necessarily a reflection of the organization's effectiveness. Situations change. People change. What would be ineffective is refusing to alter one's plans after changes have hit you square in the nuggets.




Cutler and Marshall aside, who has asked for a change? You have 78 players who have not asked for this, and 2 that have. The fact that they're big play stars makes them stick out, to be sure. But an organization must establish an identity--a character that conveys to the league, 'this is Bronco football'. We did it during the Super Bowl years and Shanahan got to walk into a plum job. McD has walked into a dungeon with bad players, bad atttitudes, and bad results. The organization shouldn't have to apologize for establishing its own culture. Players that cannot or will not buy into this culture should be cut loose, plain and simple. They are not Denver Broncos if they will not play Denver Bronco football, IMO. And Denver Broncos football has changed under McD.

Amen! You took the time to express it better than I did. Bravo to you sir!

ZONA
06-17-2009, 04:42 PM
Football success (front office, players, the whole lot of em) is judged on winning and that is it. Even the most well organized and effective communicators that lose get fired eventually. You're trying to judge a brand new head coach on criteria that is suited to your arguments. Should we have judged how John Elway's career would end up after his first season? It's insane to even judge McD and the rest of the front office for at least a few years. You may be right. They may not get the job done in say 3 years and we could be where we are now. Or, we could be a great team and then what would you say looking back on your post? DOH !!!

24champ
06-17-2009, 04:44 PM
A note that has made rounds this year and was being rumored last year is that Bowlen was cash strapped and Shanny had to do things on the cheap. One could say with 30 million to spend this offseason, the same thing transpired. Hill, Goodman, Dawkins are all either old, over the hill and overrated compared with the contracts they signed. We could be saying the same thing next offseason that we are saying this offseason about the players we just signed which leaves a big arrow pointing to Bowlen as the real problem here. He can't and won't compete in a spending competition with other NFL owners. Good ol' daddy warbucks is running out of cash and the promises he made to Bronco fans about building him a stadium 10 years ago so he can compete in a growing free agent market are completely untrue.

We're possibly heading towards being the Clippers on the NFL.

Look at all the signs:

- Shanny's huge contract replaced by a 32 year old 1st time head coach. Shanny was making what, 7 million? McDaniels will make 3 million over 3 years? Sure, Bowlen is on the docket for the rest of Mike's contract but he knows that Shanahan will get hired elsewhere within a year and it will be taken off his books.

- Half of the FO was replaced by 1st time people. Col. Zanders? What the **** has he ever done in scouting? His last boss with Atlanta scoffed at the notion that he was hired as GM saying he's never been out scouting on the road in his life. He's a numbers cruncher, a cap manager.

- Numerous other scouts released, including media staff.

- Jay Cutler and his potential mega contract was traded away. In this market, with Cutler growing the way he is in terms of talent, popularity and exposure, he'll probably be signing over a 100 million dollar contract with a signing bonus NORTH of 30 million.

- Brandon Marshall's wish to be traded will be granted per his agent as said by Bowlen. He's another guy due to get a significant raise.

- Number 1 draft pick, surely now a top 5 pick, TRADED for pennies on the dollar. 30-40 million guaranteed although i'm estimating and I haven't seen how last year projected vs. this year to get a true figure. Speculation is rampant that Bowlen doesn't believe in paying top 10 players that much and considers it a poor investment.

We are seeing WHOLESALE changes with the way this franchise is being run by Bowlen. It's a progressive movement charted by Joe Ellis, aka WORMSWORD from the LOTR's trilogy, moving towards efficient business vs. a competitive one in a 32 team market which comprises the NFL.

We're in for some long, lean years boys and girls. Bowlen is passing this stupidity off as short term memory loss but he knows what the hell he is doing. McDaniels is merely a scapegoat. He's trimming the budget down as much as he can and basically damning the fans to subpar football by their favorite team.

I for one am not spending another dollar on the Broncos until I seen a change is the way we are running things and doing business. I vote with my money and this whole **** storm Bowlen is throwing us into is completely unacceptable. I buy jerseys, kids stuff, wife stuff, tickets, go on road trips to Denver and for what? To see Bowlen reap the reward of my money and not even try to make my team a winner? **** that.

Bingo. Bowlen is modeling himself after the Monforts.

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Bingo. Bowlen is modeling himself after the Monforts.

I dunno ... Charlie can't be that cheap, he bought me a shot of Patron Silver once ;D

Tombstone RJ
06-17-2009, 05:02 PM
Long post. Sorry.

At this point, I could care less about Cutler, Marshall, the Goodmans or any past or future disgruntled employee of the Broncos. For the purpose of this thread, what I care about is that the foundation of a stable front office is in place to allow the Broncos to be rebuilt and achieve success.

There are many reasons why corporations\teams succeed, however there is a much shorter list of reasons of why they fail. I am curious how ya’ll would rate the 2009 Broncos front office against five of these factors that dramatically hinder the success of a company\team

Here are five factors and my observations.

1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities
What is the current division of power in the front office? The buck might stop with Pat but are the lines clearly drawn between each job? Comments to the media do not seem to accurately reflect the roles that are being assumed. For instance, Bowlen is on record saying that ‘Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations’. Yet in every case this off-season it appears to be Bowlen and McDaniels that are leading. Sometimes at different times for similar situations. If it is not understood by the media, I have a tough time believing that it is not equally hard for the entire organization.

2) Poor communication
As a result of unclear roles and responsibilities, it appears that messages communicated from the front office to player reps and the media are conflicting or misunderstood. This front office seems incapable of communicating a consistent message.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
McDaniels, Xanders and Bowlen are all acting in roles that are new to them. Two of them also being very young. McDaniels in particular has never had experience working in an unstable organizational structure.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This front office has set policy then had their actions immediately contradict it. Repeatedly. The Goodmans stay…then they go. Cutler stays…then he goes. Each case you might be able to explain away but looking at the entire body of work this off-season, the front office appears to be very reactive. Their strategy seems predicated on what others do, rather than on what they set themselves.


5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
Both Cutler and Marshall have requested a change of scenery. You can lay it on the doorstep of the agent or the player but ultimately the more this happens the more you have to look inward at the organization.

Ask yourself the question...Is Denver appealing right now to highly sought after FAs? It used to be. It was once a prestigious place to play and often sited as a reason for why a FA signed here.


Blame each episode of drama this off-season on the player, the agent or another external source. However, until this front office is stabilized and acts as a cohesive unit, the only thing that will be consistant is that issues will continue to occur.

Accountability starts at the top. At this point I believe that any success the 2009 Broncos have on the field will be in spite of the front office and not due to it.

All of this is extremely valid and kinda depressing.

I'd say the Broncos FO is not doing very well right now and that might be because Bowlen is just not used to having this much hands-on control.

Basically it all comes down to Bowlen's ability to lead from the top and from what I'm seeing, he's not doing a very good job. Now, maybe he just needs a little more time to adjust to all the changes and maybe he did not fully realize just how much control Shanahan had. But, we will know pretty well by the end of this coming season if this team is heading in the right direction or not.

As for McD and X, if they are getting mixed signals from Bowlen, then that is a recipe for disaster. Even if the CEO/President is a jerk and a moron, as long as he's consistent in his managing, his subordinates will eventually know how to approach him (kinda like a pitcher getting used to an umpire's strike zones). But, if Bowlen continually backslides on his decisions or tells McX one thing and then tells a player something different, then all hell is gonna break loose.

From the outside looking in, the picture is not very pretty.

Northman
06-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Talk about being reactive. Why cant people just wait and see before they have a meltdown about the season?

bpc
06-17-2009, 06:30 PM
Talk about being reactive. Why cant people just wait and see before they have a meltdown about the season?

Because our best, young players are either disgruntled or getting traded while the front office is mortgaging the future building blocks for this team and getting a fraction in return?

With those moving parts in place, do you really have to wait to see what is right in front of your face? The situation is a mess and nobody has grabbed control of the situation. Not Bowlen, not McDaniels and definitely not figure head Xanders.

I feel bad for fellow Bronco fans.

Los Broncos
06-17-2009, 06:33 PM
At this point I know the pre season hasn't even started but I'm little worried because were worse off this year, and last year we couldn't seal the deal.

dsmoot
06-17-2009, 07:07 PM
Even if they hit gold on every single trade, I am saying that this FO, to date, has been ineffective based on the five factors I named.

How do you think the FO has performed against these criteria?

Now if you don't think these are important factors in determining the success of teams...that is another thing.

The proof is in the product not yet on the field, not in our perception of what is going on behind the scenes. Many good organizations have communication issues especially at the outset of a new leadership team. Communication has its own style when coming from a different source following 14 years of an old familiar one. Frankly, I was getting a little sick and tired of the old style following tough losses and late season meltdowns.

Using the Cutler and Marshall situations as an indication of a lack of confidence in leadership by top performers is almost ridiculous. I would not classify an uncommunicative crybaby and a woman beating immature fool as ones I would consider capable of determining if our front office has leadership qualities. Cutler and BM have done nothing to show me they even understand the meaning of the word leadership. Frankly, they wouldn't know it if it bit them you know where.

Pat Bowlen is in charge. Period. He has defined the roles. He has been the owner since when, 1983 or 84? Again, Pat has the latitude to change his mind when he sees conflict where there appeared to be none. Better he let the Goodmans go early, than live with a situation that would undermine a quick efficient transition with the draft and free agency looming. Again, the media knows so little.

I think your original post was well meaning. However, there is so much garbage, misinformation and misinterpretation on what is going on behind closed doors at Dove Valley to draw an intelligent read. Give the situation time to reveal itself, it eventually will.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 07:54 PM
As others have mentioned, this is a case of seeing through the glass darkly. The inner workings of the FO are the least accessible feature of a football team for fans to assess. We can do so by proxy (i.e. media, product on the field), but we can hardly draw many conclusions about the success of their management style.

If anything, I'm happy to see them bring in and draft high character guys. Which in most business ventures (not necessarily football) make up for talent.

The fact that each one of these features is negative makes the analysis pretty shallow. Show some nuance, and don't let your view of the regime change so clearly bleed through.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 07:55 PM
Using the Cutler and Marshall situations as an indication of a lack of confidence in leadership by top performers is almost ridiculous. I would not classify an uncommunicative crybaby and a woman beating immature fool as ones I would consider capable of determining if our front office has leadership qualities. Cutler and BM have done nothing to show me they even understand the meaning of the word leadership. Frankly, they wouldn't know it if it bit them you know where.Here, here.

cmhargrove
06-17-2009, 08:09 PM
As others have mentioned, this is a case of seeing through the glass darkly. The inner workings of the FO are the least accessible feature of a football team for fans to assess. We can do so by proxy (i.e. media, product on the field), but we can hardly draw many conclusions about the success of their management style.

If anything, I'm happy to see them bring in and draft high character guys. Which in most business ventures (not necessarily football) make up for talent.

The fact that each one of these features is negative makes the analysis pretty shallow. Show some nuance, and don't let your view of the regime change so clearly bleed through.

This.


And, tell me which NFL team you know intimately enough to properly comment on any of these points? All NFL organizations are pretty secretive by nature. We really don't know much about the FO relationships behind closed doors. We just guess from what the press tells us - which we often find is conjecture.

GoBroncos DownUnder
06-17-2009, 09:57 PM
I've edited your factors.


1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities to the press and public at large.
You're erroneously concluding that since you don't know the responsibilities and hierarchy then there must not be one. This is like saying your heart doesn't work because it hasn't been explained to you yet. There is a functioning chain of command in place and like all places some of those duties are articulated and some are not. In this case neither has been disclosed. You might disagree with the decisions, but that doesn't mean the model isn't functioning properly.

2) Poor communication to the press and public at large.
They have a right to disclose or not disclose anything they wish. This is more ruffled feathers on new press policies in a regime change. This doesn't mean that internal communication isn't working. Just because we don't know doesn't mean they don't know either.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
This is the first and only one I agree with. Rookie GM and Rookie head coach in the same season is a bit much and no question some of the problems we've had have arisen from both guys stubbing their toes learning their roles and the ramifications therein.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This should be considered a positive. Adjusting to new situations and redirecting your approach after short term obstacles arise is paramount to any kind of success. Their overall strategic direction has not changed. Only their approach has. They have pursued smart, versatile, physically and mentally tough players with good character from the beginning, and every single player and coach they've brought in or kept have met these criteria.

5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
This is a problem with the players, not the leadership. Marshall wants money and Cutler is a whining drunk. That the other players have fallen in line and are excited about this season tells me all I need to.



This is completely ridiculous. More than half the roster is new this season and there will be several new starters and rookies. The coaches that coach the team were put together by the FO as was the entire practice and training schedule. Saying that any success the team has will be in spite of the front office is like saying a car runs in spite of all the gas, oil, and mechanical parts inside. The team has very few Shanahan-era fingerprints on it left anymore. This also means it's failings can be pinned on the new FO as well.
So no-one else quoted or replied to this POST ('cept for someone arguing about #5) ... Solid post Kaylore, I fully AGREE with you man! :thumbsup:

GoBroncos DownUnder
06-17-2009, 10:12 PM
A lot of negative conjecture from people who have never stepped inside Dove valley, don't have inside sources or NFL experience, but they know what's going on.

Yeah, I know, you can draw factual conclusions based on press reports.



....and yes....that was sarcasm. :)
I was thinking the SAME thing ... you go to the Broncos Website, look at the front office tab, and ... SHAM-WOW ... You're now a FO master! You know exactly how the Front-Office works, and have an idea what's going wrong! :yayaya:

(Yes, I have been to Dove Valley, and yes, I have had a personal tour, from front to back! Based on what I saw and what I took in, what you read on the website about staff/positions/titles is largely smoke and mirrors.) ;)

SoCalBronco
06-17-2009, 10:16 PM
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/content/Image/02-13-2009/Brian-Xanders.jpg

Brian Xanders does a great job ordering Pizza and refilling coffee pots.

Hooray Xanders!

http://www.adhaiku.com/images/redstripe_ugly.jpg

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 10:43 PM
]

Brian Xanders does a great job ordering Pizza and refilling coffee pots.

Hooray Xanders!


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/Rednusander/not_funny.jpg

bpc
06-17-2009, 10:48 PM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/Rednusander/not_funny.jpg

Actually, I thought it was hilarious.

The only people not laughing at Xanders are the one's trying to sell the McDaniels era as anything other than an epic failure.

worm
06-17-2009, 10:53 PM
From the outside looking in, the picture is not very pretty.

This.

No one claimed to be on the inside of Dove Valley. That is why I said my observations. Everything is conjuncture based on what is pubically available to us.

You know....Kinda like talking about the future success of draft picks, FAs, 3-4 schemes, long snappers or anything else discussed here. How some of you think that it is okay to project about future success or failure of a player...but the FO is some deep dark mystery that can't possibly be fathomed is beyond me.

You want to say that you think these factors are unimportant. Fine.
You want to rebut my perspective based on how you perceive reports from the media. Great.
You want to say that you think that when the doors are closed things are radically different than how they are observed by the media and player reps. Perfect.

But like I said before. From the cheap seat it doesn't look good.

The best thing Bowlen could do, IMO, is remove himself from day to day operations. Hire an experienced GM in place of the puppet he has now...and let Josh do what he has proven he can do - coach.

Nice. Clean. Simple. A business model that everybody top to bottom can understand. A single voice and direction coming from the top.

bpc
06-17-2009, 10:56 PM
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/content/Image/02-13-2009/Brian-Xanders.jpg

Brian Xanders does a great job ordering Pizza and refilling coffee pots.

Hooray Xanders!

http://www.adhaiku.com/images/redstripe_ugly.jpg

Xanders is the biggest f'n putz in this organization. I loved that his word mattered for all of 2.5 seconds during the Cutler situation before McDaniels told him to sit down and shut up.

My favorite story about Xanders...

Ex-boss questions new Broncos GM Xanders' scouting experience

Longtime NFL personnel executive Ken Herock hired Brian Xanders in Atlanta in 1994.

So Herock speaks from experience when he says the Broncos' new general manager has some significant challenges awaiting him in his new role.

"He had a good football background, played at Florida State, knew the game," Herock said Thursday. "I always thought he was a guy who was very impressive doing what he was doing. But I would say he needs to surround himself with some good personnel people because it's not something he has done before.

"He has never been in the situation where he listened to all of the information and then had to make the decision. And you don't know how somebody is going to be able to do that until they do it."
"Originally, we brought him in to work on the cap, No. 1, to keep track of some things, just a beginning for him to get involved," Herock said. "And I thought enough of him when I left Green Bay, I was interviewing for a job with the Washington Redskins, and I contacted him, but I didn't get the job, but I would have had him in scouting in some fashion.

"But Brian's never scouted on the road, he doesn't have those experiences of going on the road, being at the practices, getting in there and getting to know guys. That's his challenge. He knows the cap, he understands the cap and he knows the technology that's used now to get the job done. His big thing will be to make the call on whether a guy can play or not and that now he has to know it all."

HEY BOWLEN, NICE HIRE TO RUN THE FRONT OFFICE. Maybe this is why McDaniels has less than 100 players on his draft board and how their Madden Franchise mode led us to trading our 1st round pick next year for a 2nd round pick this past draft.

Can you imagine this idiot picking scouts? What experience does he have to compare theirs with? He's never been on the road. Never been to a college campus to scout players. Never been to a pro day to work people out. Christ almighty we're f'd.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 10:57 PM
Actually, I thought it was hilarious.

The only people not laughing at Xanders are the one's trying to sell the McDaniels era as anything other than an epic failure.I don't think there's credible reason to hate on Xanders. I get the hate on McD, even though I think it's misguided. But it just seems intellectually shallow to take (coffee) pot shots at the new GM.

And really, since when is reducing a GMs role to that of some funky commerical dude funny. I guess it fits with the anti-new-regime party line, so there's glee in that I suppose.

Again, I have no problem with people being with skeptical of McD's handling of the Cutler situation, but to let that bleed over into every assessment of the team to the point where you begin to rub elbows with easy snark w/ other anti-McD party members really strikes me as awfully bitter and even a bit desperate. I mean SoCal used to have so much to add to any discussion, and now he's been reduced to posting frat-boy worthy gifs. It's just sad.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 10:58 PM
This.

No one claimed to be on the inside of Dove Valley. That is why I said my observations. Everything is conjuncture based on what is pubically available to us.

To sum up: Even though my opinion is baseless I stick by it.

SoCalBronco
06-17-2009, 11:01 PM
But it just seems intellectually shallow to take (coffee) pot shots at the new GM.



Why? Everyone basically agrees that he has no real power. I don't think he's a bad person or anything like that, but I do not appreciate Bowlen making a misrepresentation (again) that we're going to do it a new way with bifurcated power and a truly independent GM when it has become painfully clear to all of us that this dynamic is really no different than Shanny and Sundquist.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 11:02 PM
"He has never been in the situation where he listened to all of the information and then had to make the decision. And you don't know how somebody is going to be able to do that until they do it."You never have experience until you have it. I mean the only substantial diss this guy has on Xanders is he hasn't scouted on the road, which seems pretty minute to me.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Why? Everyone basically agrees that he has no real power. I don't think he's a bad person or anything like that, but I do not appreciate Bowlen making a misrepresentation (again) that we're going to do it a new way with bifurcated power and a truly independent GM when it has become painfully clear to all of us that this dynamic is really no different than Shanny and Sundquist.Well, it sounds like your problem is with Bowlen.

I agree that McD seems to have as much power as Shanny had, but I'm not sure why that warrants jumping on Xanders, who in his limited role (cap management, facilitating scouting, etc) might be very, very good.

bpc
06-17-2009, 11:16 PM
You never have experience until you have it. I mean the only substantial diss this guy has on Xanders is he hasn't scouted on the road, which seems pretty minute to me.

He's never scouting on the road... ever. Never had to communicate w/ coaches, players, agents. Never had to work the road... grind out long pro days... really get to know players or prospects.

You think this side of the job should be taken lightly? How is he going to direct a staff of scouts if he doesn't know what the hell is going on himself?

You can't really be defending this hire, right?

Then come the rumors that McDaniels has 100 names on his draft board....... let me repeat, 1OO NAMES! Every other draft board is probably stocked with 300-400 plus. AFL war rooms are filled with that many prospect names.

Yet Xanders and McDaniels have 100 names on their board.

These guys are monumental mistakes working out of a personnel department and its only taken 6 months to see that with the way they've frag'd this roster and franchise already.

worm
06-17-2009, 11:19 PM
but I'm not sure why that warrants jumping on Xanders, who in his limited role (cap management, facilitating scouting, etc) might be very, very good.

Where do you get your understanding of his role from? Without being in Dove Valley I can only go by what Bowlen has said. Which is...

"I felt we needed a general manger and Brian was my choice", Bowlen said. "I want the general manager reporting to me on our new staff."

Bowlen said Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations.

He also will oversee the team's video, equipment, grounds and training staffs"

You translate this as "a limited role (cap management, facilitating scouting, etc)??

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 11:23 PM
Where do you get your understanding of his role from? Without being in Dove Valley I can only go by what Bowlen has said. Which is...

"I felt we needed a general manger and Brian was my choice", Bowlen said. "I want the general manager reporting to me on our new staff."

Bowlen said Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations.

He also will oversee the team's video, equipment, grounds and training staffs"

You translate this as "a limited role (cap management, facilitating scouting, etc)??
I was following SoCal's lead on this. Overseeing a myriad of departmental level aspects is not the same thing as actually having power to make personnel decisions, etc. I used limited not in the number of duties he has but the power he retains.

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 11:23 PM
Actually, I thought it was hilarious.

The only people not laughing at Xanders are the one's trying to sell the McDaniels era as anything other than an epic failure.

Bingo.

Pseudofool
06-17-2009, 11:26 PM
He's never scouting on the road... ever. Never had to communicate w/ coaches, players, agents. Never had to work the road... grind out long pro days... really get to know players or prospects.

You think this side of the job should be taken lightly? How is he going to direct a staff of scouts if he doesn't know what the hell is going on himself?

You can't really be defending this hire, right?

Then come the rumors that McDaniels has 100 names on his draft board....... let me repeat, 1OO NAMES! Every other draft board is probably stocked with 300-400 plus. AFL war rooms are filled with that many prospect names.

Yet Xanders and McDaniels have 100 names on their board.

These guys are monumental mistakes working out of a personnel department and its only taken 6 months to see that with the way they've frag'd this roster and franchise already.Xander's not suppose to be a scout. Like I said his job is to facilitate and organize scouting. If he's a good leader and can identify scouting talent (knows who to listen to), he doesn't need to go on the road.

I give kudos to any organization who can identify which talent and personality fits their specific system and team. I just can't see the 100 names thing as a fault. I call that having a plan, and being decisive. It may not work out, but I can't tell that now.

GoBroncos DownUnder
06-18-2009, 12:40 AM
He's never scouting on the road... ever. Never had to communicate w/ coaches, players, agents. Never had to work the road... grind out long pro days... really get to know players or prospects.

You think this side of the job should be taken lightly? How is he going to direct a staff of scouts if he doesn't know what the hell is going on himself?

You can't really be defending this hire, right?

Then come the rumors that McDaniels has 100 names on his draft board....... let me repeat, 1OO NAMES! Every other draft board is probably stocked with 300-400 plus. AFL war rooms are filled with that many prospect names.

Yet Xanders and McDaniels have 100 names on their board.
...


LOL So SON, how about the BRONCO'S draft boards, in their draft ROOM? How many names up there?
Oh, that's right you've never been there have you? If you had you'd realise that in this day and age "scouting on the road" is optional - that's what the scouts do.
"100 names" Hilarious! ... you believe everything you read? If so I have a bridge for sale ... interested?

Your wild speculation, combined with a lack of knowledge, exposes your utter ignorance to the Denver Broncos organisation ... who do you really support?:wiggle:

Kaylore
06-18-2009, 12:53 AM
Actually, I thought it was hilarious.

The only people not laughing at Xanders are the one's trying to sell the McDaniels era as anything other than an epic failure.

This is so stupid. You have no idea if it's a failure at all, let alone an "epic" one. For all we know this will all work out and the Broncos will be good this year. i'm so tired of you McDaniels bashers complaining about the team before it takes the field. If this was the 2010 offseason and we just won three games then I would totally get you, but pissing and moaning about a traded player and condemning the team to suck and declaring yourselves Bears fans is the most candy-ass thing I've ever seen.

bpc
06-18-2009, 12:58 AM
LOL So SON, how about the BRONCO'S draft boards, in their draft ROOM? How many names up there?
Oh, that's right you've never been there have you? If you had you'd realise that in this day and age "scouting on the road" is optional - that's what the scouts do.
"100 names" Hilarious! ... you believe everything you read? If so I have a bridge for sale ... interested?

Your wild speculation, combined with a lack of knowledge, exposes your utter ignorance to the Denver Broncos organisation ... who do you really support?:wiggle:

Uhhh... english? spelling? Thanks.

bpc
06-18-2009, 01:15 AM
This is so stupid. You have no idea if it's a failure at all, let alone an "epic" one. For all we know this will all work out and the Broncos will be good this year. i'm so tired of you McDaniels bashers complaining about the team before it takes the field. If this was the 2010 offseason and we just won three games then I would totally get you, but pissing and moaning about a traded player and condemning the team to suck and declaring yourselves Bears fans is the most candy-ass thing I've ever seen.

I'm glad you're in the support "McDaniels at all cost" club.

I know better. This is shaping up to be a disaster. Do I need to state the facts again?

Screw your anit-Cutler rhetoric. I'm not ambivalent to how important a franchise QB is. You're quick to jump on the ship and not question Pat Bowlen or his inexperienced choices to run our franchise. I don't have any problem with Jay and if our 1st round draft wasn't directly related to his success, I'd hope he wins the super bowl this year. Does that make me anti-bronco? Jay never did anything to the fans. He got himself out of a stupid ass situation that was getting progressively worse. From my viewpoint, he's not going to be the last either.

Boo f'n hoo. You get upset because people are holding McDaniels accountable while he's trying to swing his status around like he's Bill Parcells. He's not and there's a 90% he will fail as a first time head coach in Denver and that was before he devalued the QB position trying to fill our starting spot with subpar replacements.

Popps
06-18-2009, 02:04 AM
I'm glad you're in the support "McDaniels at all cost" club.

Chris, he's been pretty logical about his patient approach to analyzing this whole thing. I'd say it's far from "support McD at all costs."

Beyond that, how can you evaluate "costs" when we haven't had a single practice in pads? You can talk about Cutler, but he didn't do **** in Denver besides putting up some yardage numbers and pooping himself with the playoffs on the line.

How can you talk about costs when you have no idea where this franchise is headed. We were a junk team the past three years, and our D was getting worse by the season. What's the standard, here? What costs are you talking about? Jeopardizing our barely .500 seasons?

I' I'm not ambivalent to how important a franchise QB is.

Cutler wasn't a franchise QB. He was a pouty guy with a big arm, on and off mechanics, questionable leadership and a losing record.

In the past decade, we had our best team results with a QB with average physical talents. Once we got our "franchise" QB, things went in the ****ter.

So, don't be ambivalent about the virtues of a complete team, either. McDaniels and Co. are attempting to build one.

How can you press the panic button before you have any idea how this unit will come together?

Popps
06-18-2009, 02:06 AM
I You get upset because people are holding McDaniels accountable while he's trying to swing his status around like he's Bill Parcells. .

I don't ever recall McDaniels speaking about his "status," or doing anything that would lead anyone to draw such a conclusion.

He's attempting to build a winning team the way he learned how to do so... in a winning organization.

Just like Shanahan did.

Archer81
06-18-2009, 02:21 AM
Honestly considering how much of this drama did not exist under Shanahan, we were technically due for a rocky offseason. I personally dont think Marshall is going anywhere, and Denver will give him the contract he wants.

:Broncos:

24champ
06-18-2009, 02:24 AM
In the past decade, we had our best team results with a QB with average physical talents. Once we got our "franchise" QB, things went in the ****ter.

With this statement, I'm guessing you were all for Maddox and Reeves back in the day? Average QB and a Coach in over his head....hmmm.

Back in July 1993, his first summer without Reeves, Elway said, "The last three years have been hell. I know that I would not have been back here if Dan Reeves had been here. It wasn't worth it to me. I didn't enjoy it. It wasn't any fun and I got tired of working with him."

When told of Elway's comments that summer, Reeves fired back: "Just tell him it wasn't exactly heaven for me, either. One of these days I hope he grows up. Maybe he'll mature sometime."

Sound familiar folks?

Archer81
06-18-2009, 02:30 AM
With this statement, I'm guessing you were all for Maddox and Reeves back in the day? Average QB and a Coach in over his head....hmmm.



Sound familiar folks?


Not really. The QB had been to three superbowls and was actually an established franchise QB. Thats why Reeves got the heave-ho.

:Broncos:

Taco John
06-18-2009, 03:16 AM
I think that McDaniels has made some very legitimate moves this offseason. I also think that he's made some pretty serious errors that have set us back. At this point, no matter what anyone wants to say or believe about this - the offseason has been a fiasco. So while it's true that a single game hasn't been played, it's also true that our organization has never experienced an offseason like this before. But while it's true that we've never experienced so many seeming disasters in an offseason before, it's ALSO true that we haven't seen the team respond to this adversity yet in a game situation. If the game situation response is anything like the responses we've seen in the offseason, we're in trouble.

For my part, I think that the skepticism in McDaniels is founded. Is he not the youngest head coach ever hired? Whether people want to accept it or not, his age in of itself inspires a natural and healthy skepticsm (among both fans and players). But that said, I'm looking forward with eagerness to see him debunk that skepticism. Unfortunately, he's done precious little this offseason to squash my concerns about his age and inexperience. I'm hoping that September and October bring better fruits for his efforts.

GoBroncos DownUnder
06-18-2009, 06:10 AM
Uhhh... english? spelling? Thanks.
You mean "English spelling"? ... Yes SON, that's correct, I DO spell in English, but I could Americanize it for you, if you want? Not sure if you're smart enough to realise/realize the difference? Eg: Is your IQ at the centre/center of your problems?ROFL!


I'm still amused that no-one replied to Kaylore's post ... wondering if this thread is just "trolls on trolls"?? :wave:

bpc
06-18-2009, 07:03 AM
Chris, he's been pretty logical about his patient approach to analyzing this whole thing. I'd say it's far from "support McD at all costs."

Beyond that, how can you evaluate "costs" when we haven't had a single practice in pads? You can talk about Cutler, but he didn't do **** in Denver besides putting up some yardage numbers and pooping himself with the playoffs on the line.

How can you talk about costs when you have no idea where this franchise is headed. We were a junk team the past three years, and our D was getting worse by the season. What's the standard, here? What costs are you talking about? Jeopardizing our barely .500 seasons?



Cutler wasn't a franchise QB. He was a pouty guy with a big arm, on and off mechanics, questionable leadership and a losing record.

In the past decade, we had our best team results with a QB with average physical talents. Once we got our "franchise" QB, things went in the ****ter.

So, don't be ambivalent about the virtues of a complete team, either. McDaniels and Co. are attempting to build one.

How can you press the panic button before you have any idea how this unit will come together?

That's good for Kaylore. I'm glad that he can bypass the talent we've moved along and can sit there with a smile on his face. I'm not stupid, I understand things that are required to be successful on the football field. The QB position is the most important on the field if you want to win and despite whatever McDaniels thinks his talent is, you can't just turn some poop butt into the hall of fame QB. Brady being drafted in the 6th round and turning into that is the exception, not the norm. There are thousands of others that have failed in the same manner.

Let's remove all personal feeling from this and really evaluate Cutler. YOU KNOW he's talented. The whole NFL knows he's talented. The guy has been on the rise for the past 3 years and is continuing to progress and get better. You can blame missing the playoffs on him all you want but with the type of defense this franchise had, is it really any question why we missed the playoffs? Come on, wake up buddy. I know you are smarter than this to carelessly bash a player just because of your personal feeling on it but yet you continue to do it. Cutler is one of the best young QB's in the league. It's proven by the way GM's were tripping over themselves trying to trade with us for him.

We've rehashed everything about this team. We were a team ascending. Everybody knows that. The defense sucked but it wasn't completely without reason. We had a lot of injuries and all that. Yes, ultimately Slowik's track record would have kept them from ever being great but we had pieces in place to build.

It's needless to keep talking on the matter. You'll sit on your side protecting your group and I'll stay where i'm at with my feelings until proven otherwise. Deep down we both know that the gambles Denver is putting us on the low end of the percentages in terms of becoming a winner. Trading a frachise QB, fracturing a young nucleus of good players, mortgaging draft picks for guys that considering not as good, 1st time head coaches, inexperienced GM's... the list goes on and on and on.

Denver's in trouble and its going to take a miraculous by McDaniels to avert devastation he's casting upon the team. Once again, it's June. We'll see what happens. What will you say if we're 2-14 after this season? Will you still be sipping the koolaid?

bpc
06-18-2009, 07:06 AM
I don't ever recall McDaniels speaking about his "status," or doing anything that would lead anyone to draw such a conclusion.

He's attempting to build a winning team the way he learned how to do so... in a winning organization.

Just like Shanahan did.

Shanahan failed miserably during his first coaching tenure.

Most 1st time head coaches do.

oubronco
06-18-2009, 07:26 AM
Yeah ..... that Maurice Clarett signing was classic, too. Hilarious!

as was the Cryin Ryan Leaf experience so what's your point

Hulamau
06-18-2009, 08:21 AM
I've edited your factors.


1) Unclearly defined roles and responsibilities to the press and public at large.
You're erroneously concluding that since you don't know the responsibilities and hierarchy then there must not be one. This is like saying your heart doesn't work because it hasn't been explained to you yet. There is a functioning chain of command in place and like all places some of those duties are articulated and some are not. In this case neither has been disclosed. You might disagree with the decisions, but that doesn't mean the model isn't functioning properly.

2) Poor communication to the press and public at large.
They have a right to disclose or not disclose anything they wish. This is more ruffled feathers on new press policies in a regime change. This doesn't mean that internal communication isn't working. Just because we don't know doesn't mean they don't know either.

3) Lack of experience in leadership roles
This is the first and only one I agree with. Rookie GM and Rookie head coach in the same season is a bit much and no question some of the problems we've had have arisen from both guys stubbing their toes learning their roles and the ramifications therein.

4) Quick shifts in strategic direction
This should be considered a positive. Adjusting to new situations and redirecting your approach after short term obstacles arise is paramount to any kind of success. Their overall strategic direction has not changed. Only their approach has. They have pursued smart, versatile, physically and mentally tough players with good character from the beginning, and every single player and coach they've brought in or kept have met these criteria.


5) Lack of confidence in leadership by top performers
This is a problem with the players, not the leadership. Marshall wants money and Cutler is a whining drunk. That the other players have fallen in line and are excited about this season tells me all I need to.



This is completely ridiculous. More than half the roster is new this season and there will be several new starters and rookies. The coaches that coach the team were put together by the FO as was the entire practice and training schedule. Saying that any success the team has will be in spite of the front office is like saying a car runs in spite of all the gas, oil, and mechanical parts inside. The team has very few Shanahan-era fingerprints on it left anymore. This also means it's failings can be pinned on the new FO as well.

Touche!