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boppool
06-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Marshall already saying his good-byes
By ARNIE STAPLETON, AP Sports Writer


AP - Jun 12, 5:21 pm EDT NFL Gallery DENVER (AP)—Brandon Marshall(notes) is saying his good-byes to the Denver Broncos and their fans even as coach Josh McDaniels talks about seeing his holdout Pro Bowl receiver at training camp next month.

Marshall posted a farewell on his blog Tuesday, four days after requesting a trade during a private meeting with team owner Pat Bowlen.

Bowlen hasn’t said whether he’ll honor Marshall’s trade request, and McDaniels says he expects Marshall to report to camp at the end of next month rather than follow Jay Cutler(notes) out of town.

Cutler was traded to Chicago in an acrimonious split several weeks after McDaniels talked about bringing Matt Cassel(notes) over from New England for a reunion in Denver.

Marshall’s beef is primarily financial.

He’s scheduled to make $2.2 million in 2009 and he wants more money, befitting a player who has posted consecutive 100-catch seasons and went to the Pro Bowl after last season. But he has health and legal issues that leave him with little, if any, leverage.

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In a posting on his blog Tuesday that was titled “Clearing the Air,” Marshall wrote: “Life is filled with change, and where I am in my life now change is probably best. It’s hard leaving an organization ran (sic) by one of the best owners in all of sports, and someone who’s been there for me through my ups and downs.

“The hardest thing was hearing Mr. B wish me luck in the future, but we both came to the conclusion that this is probably the best thing for me to grow on and off the field,” Marshall continued. “I thank the Denver fans who embraced my emotion and play on the field and (for) showing me love every time I step outside my door.”

Also, Marshall’s agent, Kennard McGuire, told FOX31-TV in Denver on Tuesday that “Mr. Bowlen has said that ownership will do everything in its power to accommodate his wishes” for a trade.

McDaniels told The Associated Press on Tuesday night, however, that he expects his Pro Bowl receiver to be in attendance next month when the Broncos reconvene for camp.

“We met after Pat’s meeting with Brandon Marshall and we’re going to continue our dialogue with Brandon and his representatives,” McDaniels said, echoing comments he made earlier to The Denver Post and ESPN. “And we look forward to having Brandon at training camp.”

McGuire didn’t return messages from The AP.

Marshall is recuperating from hip surgery this spring and he faces a trial later this summer on charges of misdemeanor battery in Atlanta. A conviction could subject him to his second suspension from the NFL in two seasons. He sat out last year’s opener and was docked two pay checks after a series of domestic disputes landed him in commissioner Roger Goodell’s office.

While Marshall’s issue with the team is primarily about money, he also has cited a lack of trust in Denver’s medical staff for not wanting to rehab at team headquarters following what he has called a misdiagnosis of his hip injury last year.

He skipped three weeks of voluntary workouts this spring, preferring to rehab under the care of his personal physicians back home in Orlando, Fla., then dodged the mandatory minicamp. After his meeting with Bowlen, Marshall loaded three boxes of belongings into his truck and drove away without speaking to reporters.

Marshall has far outplayed the four-year deal he signed as a fourth-round draft pick in 2006. He made about $1.5 million in each of his first three seasons and his trip to the Pro Bowl last year boosted his 2009 pay to $2.2 million.

However, it’s possible he won’t be the same player after hip surgery.

Marshall caught 104 passes for 1,265 yards and six TDs last season. But he had several crucial fumbles and also dropped 18 on-target passes, something he blamed on the nerve damage in his right arm, which he said he put through a television set while horsing around with his brother a year ago in the offseason.

watermock
06-16-2009, 08:52 PM
Very risky move by BM.

and the Broncos.

Bottom line is, it's yet another blunder in an offseason allready filled to the brim with controversy.

Broncoman13
06-16-2009, 08:56 PM
McD is now coming dangerously close to getting sideways with Pat Bowlen. There are bigger issues than meet the eye here. McD isn't carrying the same message as Bowlen... that has the potential to be a huge problem. And, if you believe the rumormill, McD was very unwilling to call BMarsh in the first place which caused a lot of turmoil within b/c of his constant rambling message about Cutler not communicating or returning his calls. Bottom line, McD got sideways with BMarsh in the last week leading up to Camp. He thought he was carrying the same message as Pat Bowlen, then Bowlen acquiesces a bit and considers a new contract... at this point BMarsh is already gone.

The Broncos do have options here. They don't have to trade BMarsh, but trust me when I say this... if he stays it is basically Pat Bowlen picking Brandon Marshall over the McD way and that's not good for Bronco fans. If BMarsh stays, it's the beginning of the end (a very early end) for Josh McDaniels. No way can the Broncos cave to Brandon with Josh's motto and philosophical approach. One of them is as good as gone and if Bowlen will get rid of Cutler, he'll do the same with Marshall. Sadly, rumors are swirling that compensation will be at best a 2nd round pick, but even that is unlikely. I hope to god that turns out to be wrong.

tsiguy96
06-16-2009, 08:58 PM
it does seem like, as i said before, mcd has issues with players who want to redo their contract, as if they are personally insult mcd by talking about it.

oskie i dont know where you see that mcd hasnt tried to talk to marshall, there has been no reports of that at all. with cutler he did try, constantly, to no avail.

tsiguy96
06-16-2009, 09:00 PM
also, why is marshall saying goodbye already? does he know hes being traded, for a fact?

i really wish i knew the real reason these players wanted to be traded, we have yet to get a real answer.

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:04 PM
The Broncos do have options here. They don't have to trade BMarsh, but trust me when I say this... if he stays it is basically Pat Bowlen picking Brandon Marshall over the McD way and that's not good for Bronco fans.

Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.

tsiguy96
06-16-2009, 09:05 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.


because if the owner doesnt trust or believe in the head coach, not a single player on the team will buy into his philosophy and then you have a 2 or less win season.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:08 PM
it does seem like, as i said before, mcd has issues with players who want to redo their contract, as if they are personally insult mcd by talking about it.

oskie i dont know where you see that mcd hasnt tried to talk to marshall, there has been no reports of that at all. with cutler he did try, constantly, to no avail.

So how is McD different from Shanahan? Shanny had a staunch rule that he would not redo rookie contracts. See Clinton Portis. Good for Bowlen and McD. Marshall is a head case and is one slip up away from spending the season away from the team.

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:09 PM
because if the owner doesnt trust or believe in the head coach, not a single player on the team will buy into his philosophy and then you have a 2 or less win season.

Does this mean that the owner always has to do whatever it takes to back up the coach (even if he might personally believe that the coach is somewhat or more off course) ?

I will grant you that Bowlen is put into a little bit of a difficult position in the sense that you can feel that he's starting to question some stuff (most notable was his comment post-draft) but he can't appear to be directly in conflict with his new coach....it does illustrate nonetheless that there is something wrong there...something dysfunctional and problematic.

tsiguy96
06-16-2009, 09:12 PM
Does this mean that the owner always has to do whatever it takes to back up the coach (even if he might personally believe that the coach is somewhat or more off course) ?

I will grant you that Bowlen is put into a little bit of a difficult position in the sense that you can feel that he's starting to question some stuff (most notable was his comment post-draft) but he can't appear to be directly in conflict with his new coach....it does illustrate nonetheless that there is something wrong there...something dysfunctional and problematic.

whos to say hes questioning mcdaniels? he ordered the cutler trade because he personally felt, as peter king put it "more insulted than he has ever been in 25 years of football". dont **** with pat bowlen.
the marshall case, however, is different, but its weird in taht even though the broncos might offer him a fatty contract he wont take it...well see

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-16-2009, 09:12 PM
You know you're a malcontent when even the Dallas Cowboys don't want you.

*Per a friend very close to the team*

Bob's your Information Minister
06-16-2009, 09:13 PM
At the end of the day, SoCalBronco is starting to talk like Herm Edwards.

That's not good for Broncos fans.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:13 PM
You know you're a malcontent when even the Dallas Cowboys don't want you.

*Per a friend very close to the team*

Its going to be hard to get value for his talent because he is a mental midget.

BroncoBuff
06-16-2009, 09:13 PM
Tragic.

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:14 PM
At the end of the day, SoCalBronco is starting to talk like Herm Edwards.

That's not good for Broncos fans.

You play to win the game. :)

Actually...I don't get where you got the Herm analogy from.

footstepsfrom#27
06-16-2009, 09:19 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.
Pat's already bet the mortgage and now he's rolling the dice to see if lucky 7 comes up instead of snake eyes. He's not going to suddenly reverse course, throw away his established position that Coach Kid is the future Shanahan. He probably tells himself nobody knew who Wes Welcker was till Belichick/McD got hold of him, so who needs star WR's when you can just plug any warm body in and get results. Bowlen probably wishes he had a muligan but at this point he's going to play the hand he dealt.

BroncoInferno
06-16-2009, 09:21 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.

You can pin the Cutler situation on McD if you want. You are dead wrong to do so, but go ahead. The Marshall situation, though, has NOTHING to do with McD. He wants to get paid. That's it. There have been no statements from Marshall or even any insinuations that this has anything to with with anything other than money and an issue with the training staff that was in place under Shanny. This situation is a Bolden/Chad Johnson type of situation. The club should follow the lead of those two clubs by calling Marshall's bluff. He'll likely do what those players did and eventually report once he sees he has little leverage. Even even has worse leverage than those two because of the hip/arm issues and (more importantly) the continued off the field problems. Even though the latest incident did not go anywhere, it certainly does nothing to instill confidence that there won't be a future issue that would lead to a lengthy suspension. He really has little leverage here. I see know reasonable way to pin any of this on McD. This is strictly a financial grievance and maybe the training staff issue (which can't be blamed on McD since the failure to diagnose happened under Shanny). This has NOTHING to do with picking Marshall over McD. Marshall has made no statements or insinuations that he is unhappy with McD.

BroncoInferno
06-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Pat's already bet the mortgage and now he's rolling the dice to see if lucky 7 comes up instead of snake eyes. He's not going to suddenly reverse course, throw away his established position that Coach Kid is the future Shanahan. He probably tells himself nobody knew who Wes Welcker was till Belichick/McD got hold of him, so who needs star WR's when you can just plug any warm body in and get results. Bowlen probably wishes he had a muligan but at this point he's going to play the hand he dealt.

Please explain to me how the Marshal situation has anything to do with McD. This is not about Marshal vs. McD; it's about Marshal wanting to get paid even though there are pretty good reasons for the club to want to make him play out the final year of his deal.

tsiguy96
06-16-2009, 09:23 PM
You can pin the Cutler situation on McD if you want. You are dead wrong to do so, but go ahead. The Marshall situation, though, has NOTHING to do with McD. He wants to get paid. That's it. There have been no statements from Marshall or even any insinuations that this has anything to with with anything other than money and an issue with the training staff that was in place under Shanny. This situation is a Bolden/Chad Johnson type of situation. The club should follow the lead of those two clubs by calling Marshall's bluff. He'll likely do what those players did and eventually report once he sees he has little leverage. Even even has worse leverage than those two because of the hip/arm issues and (more importantly) the continued off the field problems. Even though the latest incident did not go anywhere, it certainly does nothing to instill confidence that there won't be a future issue that would lead to a lengthy suspension. He really has little leverage here. I see know reasonable way to pin any of this on McD. This is strictly a financial grievance and maybe the training staff issue (which can't be blamed on McD since the failure to diagnose happened under Shanny). This has NOTHING to do with picking Marshall over McD. Marshall has made no statements or insinuations that he is unhappy with McD.

the money thing can be corrected, and i have a feeling the broncos will, however the hip thing keeps coming up, and im wondering if he marshall was super offended teh broncos may have concealed the extent of the injury...which they may have considering marshall found out on his own how bad it was and it needed surgery. but i can gaurantee most teams in the NFL would have done something similar...

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:24 PM
I wish Brandon Marshall the Beater would show the comments on his blog. I have a feeling they would be epic!

Popps
06-16-2009, 09:24 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces s.

Proven?

You mean the losing QB who shat his pants against Buffalo with the playoffs on the line?

Or... are you talking about the woman beating receiver who can't stay out of cop cars who suddenly decided to stick a gun to our ribs?


Proven?

Beyond that, last I checked... both of these players forced their way out of town. One, because he's a totally pussy. The other just wants a raise.

This isn't Bowlen "choosing" ****. It's two meatheads trying to loot the store during a change of guards.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:25 PM
Whats funny is if and when you are wrong you will just make up some bat **** crazy story to say you were on board all along. Its why we love you!

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:26 PM
You can pin the Cutler situation on McD if you want. You are dead wrong to do so, but go ahead. The Marshall situation, though, has NOTHING to do with McD. He wants to get paid. That's it. There have been no statements from Marshall or even any insinuations that this has anything to with with anything other than money and an issue with the training staff that was in place under Shanny. This situation is a Bolden/Chad Johnson type of situation. The club should follow the lead of those two clubs by calling Marshall's bluff. He'll likely do what those players did and eventually report once he sees he has little leverage. Even even has worse leverage than those two because of the hip/arm issues and (more importantly) the continued off the field problems. Even though the latest incident did not go anywhere, it certainly does nothing to instill confidence that there won't be a future issue that would lead to a lengthy suspension. He really has little leverage here. I see know reasonable way to pin any of this on McD. This is strictly a financial grievance and maybe the training staff issue (which can't be blamed on McD since the failure to diagnose happened under Shanny). This has NOTHING to do with picking Marshall over McD. Marshall has made no statements or insinuations that he is unhappy with McD.

I agree that the primary aspect to the Marshall situation is a financial one, but the bigger issue (that DOES relate to McD and his foot soldiers who reside in the FO) is crisis management skills. After all, no one would now suggest that he is merely the HC. I think most of us can agree at this point that he's the guy who has the real juice. Nobody really believes that Xanders is anything more than the pizza boy and a numbers cruncher. Given this, it is our coach's responsibility to resolve problems.

Why is it that we constantly have situations that cannot be resolved in a way that doesn't involve trading a player or in the instant case, coming to the precipice of trading away a player? I mean....other teams aren't ditching their studs at the first hint of problems. Why is he not adept in crisis management?

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:29 PM
Whats funny is if and when you are wrong you will just make up some bat **** crazy story to say you were on board all along. Its why we love you!

No, I won't. I've been very cleaer that I haven't been on board with McD. If he pulls a rabbit out of his hat, he will definitely have my respect and props. I will have no problem saying I was wrong. I just don't see it ending that way, dude. There's been nothing but constant problems this offseason. Maybe its just a bunch of things that have been under the surface but are just bubbling up now, but I don't think that fully explains it.

In any case, I will never say I was on board all along with his program. My position has been pretty clear.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:29 PM
Proven?

You mean the losing QB who shat his pants against Buffalo with the playoffs on the line?

Or... are you talking about the woman beating receiver who can't stay out of cop cars who suddenly decided to stick a gun to our ribs?


Proven?

Beyond that, last I checked... both of these players forced their way out of town. One, because he's a totally p***Y. The other just wants a raise.

This isn't Bowlen "choosing" ****. It's two meatheads trying to loot the store during a change of guards.

Give him a break Popps he was out drinking his ass off to handle the stress of the moment the night before. We all get the Hershey squirts with bad hangovers! Funny part is the local bars/restaurants in Chicago are learning what an epic prick and drunk he is but I am sure the folks around here will say its just made up like they did here!

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:30 PM
No, I won't. I've been very cleaer that I haven't been on board with McD. If he pulls a rabbit out of his hat, he will definitely have my respect and props. I will have no problem saying I was wrong. I just don't see it ending that way, dude. There's been nothing but constant problems this offseason. Maybe its just a bunch of things that have been under the surface but are just bubbling up now, but I don't think that fully explains it.

In any case, I will never say I was on board all along with his program. My position has been pretty clear.

That was directed towards Mock not you the quote just didn't get included for some reason.

bpc
06-16-2009, 09:31 PM
I'm so sick of this ****. The worst 6 months in franchise history.

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 09:31 PM
Proven?

You mean the losing QB who shat his pants against Buffalo with the playoffs on the line?

Or... are you talking about the woman beating receiver who can't stay out of cop cars who suddenly decided to stick a gun to our ribs?


Proven?

Beyond that, last I checked... both of these players forced their way out of town. One, because he's a totally p***Y. The other just wants a raise.

This isn't Bowlen "choosing" ****. It's two meatheads trying to loot the store during a change of guards.

Popps, I am not disputing that each respective player has certain flaws, but I would ask the same question from you as I did for BroncoInferno. Why are we not that good in resolving these problems? I can't recall other teams having this LEVEL of constant issues that don't get resolved well. Even Cincinnati with Johnson etc. seem to be working through their problems. But with us (if this goes through), its like we just trade them and thats it.

watermock
06-16-2009, 09:32 PM
You know you're a malcontent when even the Dallas Cowboys don't want you.

*Per a friend very close to the team*

BS.

The 'Boys are still working off the trade for Williams and T.O's Bonus.

Talk about malcontent and underachiever!

Talk about clueless!


Besides, who cares, It's McDummy's show, he's the most important, althio he can't look the camera in the eye.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-16-2009, 09:35 PM
BS.

The 'Boys are still working off the trade for Williams and T.O's Bonus.

Talk about malcontent and underachiever!

Talk about clueless!


Besides, who cares, It's McDummy's show, he's the most important, althio he can't look the camera in the eye.

What?

Bob's your Information Minister
06-16-2009, 09:36 PM
You play to win the game. :)

Actually...I don't get where you got the Herm analogy from.

"At the end of the day" and "That's not good" are Hermisms.

BroncoInferno
06-16-2009, 09:36 PM
I agree that the primary aspect to the Marshall situation is a financial one, but the bigger issue (that DOES relate to McD and his foot soldiers who reside in the FO) is crisis management skills. After all, no one would now suggest that he is merely the HC. I think most of us can agree at this point that he's the guy who has the real juice. Nobody really believes that Xanders is anything more than the pizza boy and a numbers cruncher. Given this, it is our coach's responsibility to resolve problems.

Why is it that we constantly have situations that cannot be resolved in a way that doesn't involve trading a player or in the instant case, coming to the precipice of trading away a player? I mean....other teams aren't ditching their studs at the first hint of problems. Why is he not adept in crisis management?

How can you blame a trade demand as a failure on McDs part to play crisis management? This sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME. A player who has out performed his current deal want a raise and requests a trade. What can be done here other that to give Marshall the raise he wants? Honestly, I don't really begrudge players when they do this sort of thing. There is a high injury risk in football and I don't blame guys who have exceeded there level pay try to get themselves a raise. That said, this sort of thing is really a game of chicken. When the club tells the player, "no, you have a contract we expect you to honor", the player then asks to be traded and/or threaten a hold out and you have to wait and see who will blink first. In the Bolden/Johnson situations, the clubs held firm and once the players realized they had no leverage other than to hold out which would only hurt there future financial prospects, they show up. To me, McDs response is pretty reasonable given the circumstances. If Marshall had a clean nose, I would be more inclined to say pay the man, but he is once off field incident away from a long suspension and had a troubling brush this off season. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the club to say, we've put up with a lot of **** from you and we think you should finish out the deal incident free so we can see you have matured and are worth the long term investment. A panic move would be to do what Marshall and trade him. I don't think McD will do that, but it worries me that Bowlen might. Indications are that McD wanted to wait the Cutler situation out, but Bowlen got fed up and made the decision to trade. Hopefully, he won't do the same thing here.

fdf
06-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Funny part is the local bars/restaurants in Chicago are learning what an epic prick and drunk he is but I am sure the folks around here will say its just made up like they did here!

McDaniels makes him drink, even in Chicago. McDaniels is everywhere messing up everything. He has superhuman powers.

SureShot
06-16-2009, 09:40 PM
I wonder if Apa has his personal attacks ready for the next young star that is traded/released.

"Hillis? I know from second hand accounts that he poaches in Arkansas in the offseason"

BroncoInferno
06-16-2009, 09:41 PM
Popps, I am not disputing that each respective player has certain flaws, but I would ask the same question from you as I did for BroncoInferno. Why are we not that good in resolving these problems? I can't recall other teams having this LEVEL of constant issues that don't get resolved well. Even Cincinnati with Johnson etc. seem to be working through their problems. But with us (if this goes through), its like we just trade them and thats it.

The Cutler situation is the only one where you can argue for poor skills at problem solving. Marshall demanding a trade does not fall in line with that. Like I said, it happens pretty frequently. You mentioned Cincy with Johnson...he requested a trade if you'll recall, and they called his bluff and he played. That's what's going on here. It's pretty clear that the only way to resolve this to Marshall's satifaction is to give him a raise now. Do you really want to do that at this point given the off the field issues? What should the club do or have done to avoid this beyond giving him to his request for a new deal?

Taco John
06-16-2009, 09:46 PM
Proven?

You mean the losing QB who shat his pants against Buffalo with the playoffs on the line?

Cutler had an excellent game against Buffalo. Blaming Cutler for that loss is ignorant.

Of course, if it was Plummer, you'd have blamed everyone but the quarterback. You're inconsistent like that.

Every other offseason, you whine cry and moan about how we ignore the defensive line. This offseason, we completely ignore the defensive line focusing on offense and secondary, and you're telling us this is our best offseason in ten years.

Inconsistent.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:48 PM
I wonder if Apa has his personal attacks ready for the next young star that is traded/released.

"Hillis? I know from second hand accounts that he poaches in Arkansas in the offseason"

Oh hey now Marshall is the last of the bad apples* drafted/brought in by Shanny. Things get smooth after this.

*Marshall is only a bad apple off the field. On the field and in practice he is everything you could want. But I am sorry if you want to attack me for not supporting a guy who beats women repeatedly then you are beneath me and I don't care what a bottom feeder thinks.

watermock
06-16-2009, 09:49 PM
Once again you fail at everything dbronc. Look who cutler is with, a TEAMATE! Look who orton drinks with, TRANSVESTITES and brainless frat guys.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wow. found this on a bears board.

SureShot
06-16-2009, 09:51 PM
Oh hey now Marshall is the last of the bad apples* drafted/brought in by Shanny. Things get smooth after this.

*Marshall is only a bad apple off the field. On the field and in practice he is everything you could want. But I am sorry if you want to attack me for not supporting a guy who beats women repeatedly then you are beneath me and I don't care what a bottom feeder thinks.

So whats your feelings on Rod Smith?

boppool
06-16-2009, 09:52 PM
Pat's already bet the mortgage and now he's rolling the dice to see if lucky 7 comes up instead of snake eyes. He's not going to suddenly reverse course, throw away his established position that Coach Kid is the future Shanahan. He probably tells himself nobody knew who Wes Welcker was till Belichick/McD got hold of him, so who needs star WR's when you can just plug any warm body in and get results. Bowlen probably wishes he had a muligan but at this point he's going to play the hand he dealt.

Well said. Bowlen's ego is his own worst enemy.
He probably knew he made a mistake in hiring McDaniel right after the Cutler trade, but he's too proud to admit his own mistake. When will he admit this, after 2 seasons? and we start from scratch AGAIN? I'm really pi**ed!

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 09:54 PM
So whats your feelings on Rod Smith?

Lets see he got in trouble once. Marshall is on number 5 want to keep going with that lame argument Buck?

SureShot
06-16-2009, 09:55 PM
Oh hey now Marshall is the last of the bad apples* drafted/brought in by Shanny. Things get smooth after this.

*Marshall is only a bad apple off the field. On the field and in practice he is everything you could want. But I am sorry if you want to attack me for not supporting a guy who beats women repeatedly then you are beneath me and I don't care what a bottom feeder thinks.

Oh and believe me I know domestic abuse I grew up with it. At least be consistent. Rod Smith cures the blind and turns water into wine, but Marshall is some how different even though he hasn't been convicted unlike Smith.

SureShot
06-16-2009, 09:57 PM
Lets see he got in trouble once. Marshall is on number 5 want to keep going with that lame argument Buck?

Your right some how I thought people were innocent until proven guilty. So let me ask another question which is worse 5 charges or one conviction?

watermock
06-16-2009, 09:59 PM
Cutler had an excellent game against Buffalo. Blaming Cutler for that loss is ignorant.

Of course, if it was Plummer, you'd have blamed everyone but the quarterback. You're inconsistent like that.

Every other offseason, you whine cry and moan about how we ignore the defensive line. This offseason, we completely ignore the defensive line focusing on offense and secondary, and you're telling us this is our best offseason in ten years.

Inconsistent.

Fact is, Cut makes that throw and e win against the Bills, or earlier, Bowe make the onside kick catch.

The point of the matter is what has happened since McDdummy has appointed himself Der Furher.

He obviosly did not learn a damn thing from Billacheat. He traded down for multiple picks and kept he money on the sidelines, hell, he had 4 second rounders and I think got another 1sdt.

We?

We squandered both a second AND A FIRST.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 10:00 PM
Your right some how I thought people were innocent until proven guilty. So let me ask another question which is worse 5 charges or one conviction?

LOL Marshall has the money to shut her up. But the point is Rod made one mistake then had stellar track record. Marshall is always in the headlines for the wrong reasons and hasn't learned.

boppool
06-16-2009, 10:01 PM
The Cutler situation is the only one where you can argue for poor skills at problem solving. Marshall demanding a trade does not fall in line with that. Like I said, it happens pretty frequently. You mentioned Cincy with Johnson...he requested a trade if you'll recall, and they called his bluff and he played. That's what's going on here. It's pretty clear that the only way to resolve this to Marshall's satifaction is to give him a raise now. Do you really want to do that at this point given the off the field issues? What should the club do or have done to avoid this beyond giving him to his request for a new deal?

Look, everything started with Cutler situation. I'm not blaming the whole fiasco on McDaniels, but he definately didn't act like a mature head coach. He may be a offensive gift from heaven, but he has a zero people skill. No wonder players want to leave. If Sheffler had a probowl season last year, I bet ya he's already wearing another jersey.

SureShot
06-16-2009, 10:02 PM
LOL Marshall has the money to shut her up. But the point is Rod made one mistake then had stellar track record. Marshall is always in the headlines for the wrong reasons and hasn't learned.

I'm sorry I missed your answer to my question. Can you point it out for me?

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm sorry I missed your answer to my question. Can you point it out for me?

Thats it Fairplay tomorrow at the swing sets!

SureShot
06-16-2009, 10:06 PM
Thats it Fairplay tomorrow at the swing sets!

Do they even have swing sets in Fairplay? Spider a little help? I'm sure you have sniffed a couple on your way through.

theAPAOps5
06-16-2009, 10:08 PM
Do they even have swing sets in Fairplay? Spider? I'm sure you have sniffed a couple on your way through.

I was kind of hoping you would know and txt me directions!

BroncoBuff
06-16-2009, 10:09 PM
Popps, I am not disputing that each respective player has certain flaws, but I would ask the same question from you as I did for BroncoInferno. Why are we not that good in resolving these problems? I can't recall other teams having this LEVEL of constant issues that don't get resolved well. Even Cincinnati with Johnson etc. seem to be working through their problems. But with us (if this goes through), its like we just trade them and thats it.

You really hit on it there SoCal ... every person, every player, every team has problems. The trick is managing the problems. Hell, that's the trick in life. For example, how many people knew Terry Bradhsaw had crippling depression that kept him alone and isolated from all his teammates? Most of them hated his guts ... yet they won 4 Super Boiwls because they MANAGED the problem. There doesn't seem to be any managing here.

The sad part about old geezer Popps railing like an angry old woman against first Jay and now Brandon, is that he doesn't even realize he's just parroting the party line: It's managment - first, last and always ... and he's so ANGRY in defending management. It's funny, but when e-Bay kicked Popp's sorry butt off of their site a year ago, suddenly THEN he questioned management.

Angry there, Popps ... whoa, boy ......

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 10:27 PM
You really hit on it there SoCal ... every person, every player, every team has problems. The trick is managing the problems. Hell, that's the trick in life. For example, how many people knew Terry Bradhsaw had crippling depression that kept him alone and isolated from all his teammates? Most of them hated his guts ... yet they won 4 Super Boiwls because they MANAGED the problem. There doesn't seem to be any managing here.

The sad part about old geezer Popps railing like an angry old woman against first Jay and now Brandon, is that he doesn't even realize he's just parroting the party line: It's managment - first, last and always ... and he's so ANGRY in defending management. It's funny, but when e-Bay kicked Popp's sorry butt off of their site a year ago, suddenly THEN he questioned management.

Angry there, Popps ... whoa, boy ......

I don't think Popps is being disingenuous....obviously he believes and trusts the current regime (probably not just because they got rid of Engelberger...altho that helped) and generally philosophically agrees with them. He really believes his position just as we do ours. That's cool. I like the guy. But I just wish Popps would see that everything they are doing is not ALWAYS right. There's alot of smoke here....and I think that means that at the very least, there's at least some fire.

I agree that we seem to have this really bad problem is resolving conflicts. I'm not sure how that will be cured...perhaps experience, but I dunno.

TheDave
06-16-2009, 10:30 PM
This has got to be a joke...

No way in hell could a team trade away their top 2 offensive players and their 1st round pick all in one off-season.

OBF1
06-16-2009, 10:34 PM
but wait there's more

:)

All this crying and not a single down of football has been played.

ZONA
06-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?



At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.



Am I missing something. What does BM's problem with his contract and the team doctors have to do with McD? Again, everybody jumping on McD like he did something here. Get a clue.

SoCalBronco
06-16-2009, 10:36 PM
This has got to be a joke...

No way in hell could a team trade away their top 2 offensive players and their 1st round pick all in one off-season.

Wanna bet? :)

ZONA
06-16-2009, 10:38 PM
This has got to be a joke...

No way in hell could a team trade away their top 2 offensive players and their 1st round pick all in one off-season.

Well, I beg to differ my good friend. I think Clady is the best offensive player on the team and he isn't going anywhere. And Jay wanted to leave all along once Shanny was let go. BMarsh is a very good player and I hope he stays but we do keep him at a risk of him getting a suspension sometime down the road. If he wasn't such a d-bag off the field, he would already have that fat new contract.

TheDave
06-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Well, I beg to differ my good friend. I think Clady is the best offensive player on the team and he isn't going anywhere. And Jay wanted to leave all along once Shanny was let go. BMarsh is a very good player and I hope he stays but we do keep him at a risk of him getting a suspension sometime down the road. If he wasn't such a d-bag off the field, he would already have that fat new contract.

I'll give you clady over BMarsh, but not Cutler...

I'm not disputing any of the "reasons" Cutler was moved just the fact that in a matter of a few months we have traded away a freakishly talented 26 year old QB, our 1st for next year and now all signs point to Marshall going somewhere else.

This is amazing to watch and pretty sad... IMO

I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Popps
06-16-2009, 10:56 PM
Popps, I am not disputing that each respective player has certain flaws, but I would ask the same question from you as I did for BroncoInferno. Why are we not that good in resolving these problems?

.... and I'm not disputing these players having flaws, either.

As for resolving problems, who's to say we haven't resolved them properly besides a few widow-types on this board?

Seems to me that it's difficult to "resolve" a problem with a fug-nut like Cutler when he refuses to speak to the team.

Now, we've got Marshall in a very standard holdout situation looking for a big payday. (We would assume.)

What's to resolve? You want to dump a truck of money on this time-bomb? That would be good "resolution" from management?

You're building a straw-man, and attacking it.

These problems have and are being resolved. This team is changing. The days of a few stars being surrounded by scrubs and people popping off at the mouth about 2000K seasons every year are over.

Things HAVE been resolved. Perhaps not to your liking, but you have no basis to know if they were resolved properly, or not. Many of us think they have been.

Popps
06-16-2009, 10:58 PM
Angry there, Popps ... whoa, boy ......

Hey BroncoMuff,

Another night of tugging at my sack for attention, huh? You silly old c##t.

Yes, I've already railed on Cutler. Not been paying attention?

As for Marshall, I've said my piece on him a million times. Where's the news there? He is what he is.

I've also said that I think from a football standpoint, I'd like to see something worked out. But, as with Cutler, it takes two to tango.

Anyway, you run along and find more of my posts to cling to there. Fetch me a beer while you're at it.

watermock
06-16-2009, 11:02 PM
This has got to be a joke...

No way in hell could a team trade away their top 2 offensive players and their 1st round pick all in one off-season.

Pause a second. We traded away a 25 y/o probowl/franchuise QB. He was under contract for 600k.


BM was under contrACT FOR 2.1M BECAUSE HE MAD THE PRO BOWL.

Weigman is under a reserve contract but made the probowl.

Here's to week 11:

http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200811271344494985488-pf.widec.jpg

Hulamau
06-16-2009, 11:14 PM
You can pin the Cutler situation on McD if you want. You are dead wrong to do so, but go ahead. The Marshall situation, though, has NOTHING to do with McD. He wants to get paid. That's it. There have been no statements from Marshall or even any insinuations that this has anything to with with anything other than money and an issue with the training staff that was in place under Shanny. This situation is a Bolden/Chad Johnson type of situation. The club should follow the lead of those two clubs by calling Marshall's bluff. He'll likely do what those players did and eventually report once he sees he has little leverage. Even even has worse leverage than those two because of the hip/arm issues and (more importantly) the continued off the field problems. Even though the latest incident did not go anywhere, it certainly does nothing to instill confidence that there won't be a future issue that would lead to a lengthy suspension. He really has little leverage here. I see know reasonable way to pin any of this on McD. This is strictly a financial grievance and maybe the training staff issue (which can't be blamed on McD since the failure to diagnose happened under Shanny). This has NOTHING to do with picking Marshall over McD. Marshall has made no statements or insinuations that he is unhappy with McD.

Absolutely right BI , trying to make McD the culprit here when he clearly wanted Brandon on the team is ludicrous. And this idea that a few of you are taking Brandon's and his agents recount of just want Bowen said as Gospel and then using that as an assumption that McD and Bowlen are at cross purposes here is even more out to lunch.

Take this one step at a time. This rumor mongering only heats everyone up without adding clarity to the issue.

I have no doubt McD and Bowlen have talked at length and are working as one on this with Brandon. Marshall and his agent are going to spin any press moves they can to sugar coat everything.

It may be that the Broncos do decide to trade him while there is some perceived value and to clear the decks for a team without any whiners on it from the start.

I'll miss his production on the field, but not all the other drama and with his arm plus hip issues now, his long term viability is definitely questionable, not to mention the odds of another mental melt down with his girlfriend.

Yes he deserves more money and yes he would have gotten it from the Broncos with some smart decisions.

But any statements he and his agent are making to the press at the moment are as much or more about negotiating tactics as truth.

Popps
06-16-2009, 11:18 PM
Absolutely right BI , trying to make McD the culprit here when he clearly wanted Brandon on the team is ludicrous. .

He's still publicly saying that he hopes Brandon is at camp. There's been absolutely nothing to this point to lead anyone to believe there is ANY friction here at all.

The friction is financial.

That... and perhaps Brandon just sees the writing on the wall. This team is not going to be pulling Travis Henry bull**** anymore. No more Javon Walker nonsense. We're not going to reward ****-ups.

In reality, he's probably being pretty logical about it... or you could make that argument. He knows he won't be able to hold us up at gunpoint, so why not go do it somewhere else. He knows he's a sneeze away from kissing any big paydays goodbye.

Why not capitalize before his next arrest?

This is really simple ****. I'm surprised people need to make it complicated.

Actually, I'm not.

watermock
06-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Your dreaming.

BM is gone, probably for a conditional second and a 5th.

Schef will play out his contract in the 2 TE set.

Doom will move on, as a situational rusher.

Denver will be 4-12, 5-11, 6-10.

It's sad, because we had alot of money and draft choices.

McDummy will have sh!t on his face forever.

24champ
06-16-2009, 11:32 PM
This is amazing to watch and pretty sad... IMO


Actually it is pretty frightening, we might be the Colorado Rockies of the NFL.

Think about it, Bowlen is done shelling out money to stars. Why do you think he Brought in a young Head Coach who excels by making average players look decent in his system. If we really wanted to, we could have re-worked the contract of Cutler, Marshall, and Weigman soon as the season was over. Let's also not forget Shanny has been asking for a brand new Headquarters, a bigger training facility etc. Pat said no to that immediately.

Everything points to Bowlen doing things on the cheap now, just like the Monforts trading away Holliday etc.

Popps
06-16-2009, 11:34 PM
Your dreaming.

BM is gone, probably for a conditional second and a 5th.


Isn't that about what we paid for Walker?

watermock
06-16-2009, 11:35 PM
He's still publicly saying that he hopes Brandon is at camp. There's been absolutely nothing to this point to lead anyone to believe there is ANY friction here at all.

The friction is financial.

That... and perhaps Brandon just sees the writing on the wall. This team is not going to be pulling Travis Henry bull**** anymore. No more Javon Walker nonsense. We're not going to reward ****-ups.

In reality, he's probably being pretty logical about it... or you could make that argument. He knows he won't be able to hold us up at gunpoint, so why not go do it somewhere else. He knows he's a sneeze away from kissing any big paydays goodbye.

Why not capitalize before his next arrest?

This is really simple ****. I'm surprised people need to make it complicated.

Actually, I'm not.

God Almighty, McDummy made a powerplay for another backup reciever.

That makes 2 backup recievers, 3 QB's,

and Ayers, Moreno and Smith.

I'm opitimistic at 5-11 because our division is so bad.

watermock
06-16-2009, 11:37 PM
Wlker was a FA to my recollection.

Popps
06-16-2009, 11:43 PM
Wlker was a FA to my recollection.

Which is why I continually remind you that the "smarter than everyone" approach really isn't working out well for you.

He wasn't a free agent, Mock.

Taco John
06-17-2009, 12:07 AM
This has got to be a joke...

No way in hell could a team trade away their top 2 offensive players and their 1st round pick all in one off-season.


And that's saying nothing for losing the Hall of Fame credentialed coach.

Hulamau
06-17-2009, 12:09 AM
If Marshall leaves Scheffs Receptions will increase big time as he is basically like a WR as it is.

I suspect Jay has been chatting Brandon's ear off encouraging him to jump ship too. He'd like nothing more than to take the spot light off of him some and weaken the team.

As much as we may miss Brandon's production and presence on the field I do notice that something like 43 Super bowls have managed to be won without the presence of either Cutler or Marshall on the field ... neither of whom has sniffed the layoffs yet.

So yes, its a loss on the field and another hole to fill, but its not the end of the world and we'll still field a solid offense. It will just feature a bit more Moreno, Hillis, Buckhalter, Royal, Gaffney, Schef, Graham, Stokely, Lloyd and Quinn.

And most importantly we are rebuilding this team with guys who want to be here and are committed to the team. If Bowlen indicates to Marshall he will get his contract and Marshall still wants out from quibbling over provisions to protect us from his considerable risk that he truly IS, then we move on and find another good WR to fill the bill.

watermock
06-17-2009, 12:32 AM
Yeah, it a Cutler/Masrhall conspiracy.

BM is gone. It has nothing to do with Cutler.

PLEASE bring up it's all about a new contract again w/Cutler.

Popps
06-17-2009, 12:42 AM
I don't think Popps is being disingenuous....obviously he believes and trusts the current regime .

I missed this post...

Absolutely not disingenuous. I was down for major change, and we're getting it. It's not always easy.

(probably not just because they got rid of Engelberger...altho that helped) .

:strong:

I like the guy. .

You know I'm a fan of yours, despite me ribbing you about the pouting. I was calling for you to post more during your pissy hiatus. :)
When you are looking at the bigger picture, you are as good to read as anyone here.

But I just wish Popps would see that everything they are doing is not ALWAYS right. .

There is no possible way that everything they do will be ALL right. No way. What franchise does EVERYTHING right. I've said that we should have clearly been more careful trying to obtain Cassel, if that's how it really went down. I'm sure I'll see many more mistakes as time goes on... and you know me, I'll talk about them.

But..

1.I truly believe Cutler gave us no choice.
2. I actually liked our draft. Gave it about a B.
3. I like who we've brought in via FA.
4. I absolutely love the team concept we're building.

... and as for Marshall, I think this is just standard NFL business. Look around the league. Peppers, Boldin, now Marshall... this is commonplace, now.

I don't think we can criticize the new staff on how they handled it... until they handle it. You know there's no easy solution here, SoCal.


Beyond that, we haven't played a single practice in pads. I'm just not sure what the panic is about, and as a fan... I'm optimistic. Yes, it's been rocky, but again... I KNEW that would be the case.

Taco John
06-17-2009, 12:46 AM
It's pretty much a punk move to wish your fans bye before anything has really happened. Seriously.

Popps
06-17-2009, 12:50 AM
It's pretty much a punk move to wish your fans bye before anything has really happened. Seriously.

Agree... particularly when the only thing to come from the organization was that we hope to see him at camp.

But, I guess this is how these things go. They're usually ugly.

watermock
06-17-2009, 01:01 AM
Apparently, he was given assurances by Bowlen.

The signings of Gaffney, Lloyd and Swift make it pretty clear.


BM is gone.

summerdenver
06-17-2009, 01:11 AM
It's pretty much a punk move to wish your fans bye before anything has really happened. Seriously.

May be its his response to the signing of Brandon Lloyd ......

Hulamau
06-17-2009, 01:16 AM
There is no possible way that everything they do will be ALL right. No way. What franchise does EVERYTHING right. Ditto

But..

1.I truly believe Cutler gave us no choice. Check v
2. I actually liked our draft. Gave it about a B. Check v
3. I like who we've brought in via FA. Check v
4. I absolutely love the team concept we're building. Triple Check vvv



Beyond that, we haven't played a single practice in pads. I'm just not sure what the panic is about, and as a fan... I'm optimistic. Yes, it's been rocky, but again... I KNEW that would be the case.

Nuff said

BabyTO
06-17-2009, 03:56 AM
What the hell went on during that meeting with Pat that Brandon would just all of a sudden hope the Broncos trade him? And especially be so aggressive about it? The guy really wants out, no questions asked. They probably told him he's not gonna get a new contract.

Good for you, Pat. You got rid of Shanahan because you felt like you wanted more control? Are you happy now? You're ruining this team. Everything was perfectly fine when Shanahan was here. I really hate this guy.

Go and trade Marshall now, let's see what we can get in return. Just alienate every talented player we have on our team. Maybe we're gonna win a superbowl with Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd.

footstepsfrom#27
06-17-2009, 04:05 AM
What the hell went on during that meeting with Pat that Brandon would just all of a sudden hope the Broncos trade him? And especially be so aggressive about it? The guy really wants out, no questions asked. They probably told him he's not gonna get a new contract.

Good for you, Pat. You got rid of Shanahan because you felt like you wanted more control? Are you happy now? You're ruining this team. Everything was perfectly fine when Shanahan was here. I really hate this guy.

Go and trade Marshall now, let's see what we can get in return. Just alienate every talented player we have on our team. Maybe we're gonna win a superbowl with Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd.
It's hard to believe he came to this decision based on one meeting. I think Marshall's been thinking this through since the regime change. Maybe he feels his game suffers without Cutler, or maybe he knows some things we don't about that whole fiasco, or maybe he's been the recipient of some of what SI's Michael Silver termed the arrogance of the Belichick disciples, cited by both players and employees of Cleveland, the Jets, KC and Denver.

watermock
06-17-2009, 04:12 AM
What the hell went on during that meeting with Pat that Brandon would just all of a sudden hope the Broncos trade him? And especially be so aggressive about it? The guy really wants out, no questions asked. They probably told him he's not gonna get a new contract.



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Broncoman13
06-17-2009, 05:11 AM
I wonder if Apa has his personal attacks ready for the next young star that is traded/released.

"Hillis? I know from second hand accounts that he poaches in Arkansas in the offseason"

Hilarious! :spit:


That's just wrong

chrisp
06-17-2009, 05:44 AM
The Cutler trade was pretty un-precedented: teams usually don't trade a franchise QB like that, but then QBs don't usually take against the new coach in that way before the first practice has even been held.

Given that the trade happened, however, it was always likely to have repercussions due to its magnitude and the unprecedented nature of it. Nothing anyone can do about that - you may agree or disagree with trading Jay, but you cannot dispute that once the trade happened - for whatever reason - there would be repercussions to the rest of the team, that woudl have to be either managed or endured.

So Brandon's current stance in aggressvely seeking a trade may well be strongly influenced by the Cutler trade: if Cutler hadn't been able to force his way out of town, Brandon may have been less likely to think he could. HOWEVER there was still going to be a contract issue with Brandon this year, ad that is not McD's fault.

Thing is, if your QB is a malcontent its harder to get around. You have a to have a backup you really believe in if you want to bench the guy, but if you don't bench him is he going to play 100%?

A wide receiver is a little easier to sideline. You may not be as good a team without them, but you can still carry on and try to win - however good they are they are not quite as central to the running of the entire offense as the QB.

I think we will (and should) play hardball with brandon, not least because his trade value won't be up to much so far, and that's the only argument for facilitating the trade. Taking everything into account, we're probably better off having him sit for a season than we are letting him force a trade.

Broncoman13
06-17-2009, 05:51 AM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.


Sometimes when you may a decision you have to follow that decision through. Pat Bowlen decided to buy into McD's philosophy. Shanahan is gone, Cutler gone, and now there is a very real chance that Brandon Marshall is gone. At this point Pat Bowlen doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's not like he can say, okay Mike, Jay, Brandon... I made a mistake, everybody come back and lets start over. Nope, he's past the point of no return and therefore has no choice but to continue with McD and hope that the philosophy he originally bought into, turns out as he had hoped or envisioned from the beginning.

As for what is so great about McD... There is a good story that he tells. It talks about wins for years and having a system that is successful regardless of the players. I don't think either one of them planned on dealing with these types of issues this soon. But, that story is what Bowlen hedged his bets on, and so he has an opportunity to see very early on if McD is all that he envisioned.

As for Nick's question, Bowlen isn't willing to part with his "stars" quite as quickly. Not b/c he wants them but b/c he does't want to deal with the fan's reactions. Can anyone hear name a time when he sent out an email to season ticket holders asking for patience and to have faith? Unprecedented. McD's philosophy (as was Shanny's) is that you can leave if you don't want to be here. Bowlen generally buys into that and lets his "football people" deal with those issues. But now he sees that those decisions are costing him a lot of fan support. For every "Popps" or "ApaOps" there are seven or eight "Oskies", "bpcs", "SoCals", "TJs", "Montroses", "TheDaves" and "ALFs". To be fair, I like McD. I think he is going to be a very good coach. I just think he is a bit too aggressive a bit too soon. I think most of the folks that are against what is happening right now would agree that some sort of change was necessary. Same as Pat Bowlen. But, this much change is counter productive and now has the potential to set a franchise back a long ways.

To compound matters, we're already in a tough economic time. Bronco fans are loyal to a fault, but even the faithful have their limits. When faced with a tough decision to buy tickets/merchandise for the Broncos or save that money fans are more and more likely to save that money in this economy... especially when the product on the field looks this rocky. Guys like ApaOps, Popps, and even Montrose, myself, TJ, and several others that aren't in favor of the most recent moves understand the necessity of these moves. But the majority of the population in Denver won't know anything other than, We fired a HOF coach, brought in a kid that has zero experience and the proceeded to trade our best players... and yes, the perception in Denver is that Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall were the best players on the team.

So now you know why Bowlen and McD are starting to get a little sideways. Bowlen buys into McD's plan but didn't anticipate having to deal with "fallout" this early. McD only sees one thing which is his plan, but now Bowlen is starting to worry even more about fan support and the "bottom line". The problem I see is that Bowlen isn't communicating his concerns to McD. So McD continues to carry his hardline approach, meanwhile Bowlen gets involved with discussions with players and two different philosophies come out. Then you have a douche like BMarsh trying to take advantage of that situation by making those issues public.

Sorry for rambling on...

dbfan21
06-17-2009, 06:00 AM
I genuinely hope the FO stands strong on this and keeps BM under contract. Make him sit and squirm while not earning anything. It's hard to pay Harvey's attorney's fees when you aren't pulling down a paycheck.

DenverBrit
06-17-2009, 06:02 AM
Does this drama sound at all familiar? It should....same agent, same tactic.

Switch Green Bay with Denver......Walker with Marshall.


Walker wants out of Green Bay
Green Bay Packers wide receiver Javon Walker told ESPN.com on Thursday that he has already informed the Packers of his desire to play elsewhere. Walker said he's expressed his feelings to new Packers coach Mike McCarthy. His agent has also asked general manager Ted Thompson to deal Walker or allow them to pursue a trade. Thompson reportedly denied that request on Wednesday. Walker told ESPN.com, "I really have no interest in being in a Green Bay Packers uniform or playing for Green Bay again." Last year, the Packers refused to discuss Walker's contract, which at the time had two years left on it.

Broncoman13
06-17-2009, 06:07 AM
Walker started that the year before his knee injury. Everyone gave him a hard time and he showed up and played. The first game of the season, a Monday nighter if I remember correctly he blew out his knee. That was the last time he ever played for the Packers.

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 06:14 AM
Marshall has far outplayed the four-year deal he signed as a fourth-round draft pick in 2006.

Hey, that's not what I read here. Paging rugbythug......

kamakazi_kal
06-17-2009, 06:52 AM
If Marshall leaves Scheffs Receptions will increase big time as he is basically like a WR as it is.

I suspect Jay has been chatting Brandon's ear off encouraging him to jump ship too. He'd like nothing more than to take the spot light off of him some and weaken the team.

As much as we may miss Brandon's production and presence on the field I do notice that something like 43 Super bowls have managed to be won without the presence of either Cutler or Marshall on the field ... neither of whom has sniffed the layoffs yet.

So yes, its a loss on the field and another hole to fill, but its not the end of the world and we'll still field a solid offense. It will just feature a bit more Moreno, Hillis, Buckhalter, Royal, Gaffney, Schef, Graham, Stokely, Lloyd and Quinn.

And most importantly we are rebuilding this team with guys who want to be here and are committed to the team. If Bowlen indicates to Marshall he will get his contract and Marshall still wants out from quibbling over provisions to protect us from his considerable risk that he truly IS, then we move on and find another good WR to fill the bill.

yeah ..... marshall wanting more money and not trusting the medical staff is all cutlers fault .....:spit:

2KBack
06-17-2009, 07:02 AM
Cutler had an excellent game against Buffalo. Blaming Cutler for that loss is ignorant.

Of course, if it was Plummer, you'd have blamed everyone but the quarterback. You're inconsistent like that.

Every other offseason, you whine cry and moan about how we ignore the defensive line. This offseason, we completely ignore the defensive line focusing on offense and secondary, and you're telling us this is our best offseason in ten years.

Inconsistent.

zero tds, 1 int, 55% completion, 72 rating...

you have a flexible definition of excellent

colonelbeef
06-17-2009, 07:04 AM
You know you're a malcontent when even the Dallas Cowboys don't want you.

*Per a friend very close to the team*

That's just Jerry Jones doing his friend a favor and staying out of the fray.

Cito Pelon
06-17-2009, 07:20 AM
McD is now coming dangerously close to getting sideways with Pat Bowlen. There are bigger issues than meet the eye here. McD isn't carrying the same message as Bowlen... that has the potential to be a huge problem. And, if you believe the rumormill, McD was very unwilling to call BMarsh in the first place which caused a lot of turmoil within b/c of his constant rambling message about Cutler not communicating or returning his calls. Bottom line, McD got sideways with BMarsh in the last week leading up to Camp. He thought he was carrying the same message as Pat Bowlen, then Bowlen acquiesces a bit and considers a new contract... at this point BMarsh is already gone.

The Broncos do have options here. They don't have to trade BMarsh, but trust me when I say this... if he stays it is basically Pat Bowlen picking Brandon Marshall over the McD way and that's not good for Bronco fans. If BMarsh stays, it's the beginning of the end (a very early end) for Josh McDaniels. No way can the Broncos cave to Brandon with Josh's motto and philosophical approach. One of them is as good as gone and if Bowlen will get rid of Cutler, he'll do the same with Marshall. Sadly, rumors are swirling that compensation will be at best a 2nd round pick, but even that is unlikely. I hope to god that turns out to be wrong.

It does sound that way a little bit. I'm not gonna get carried away saying that's the definite situation right now.

There's no reason to start jumping to conclusions so fast.

vancejohnson82
06-17-2009, 07:22 AM
zero tds, 1 int, 55% completion, 72 rating...

you have a flexible definition of excellent

You're forgetting a forced pass on 2nd down inside the 10 yard line....THAT was the heartbreaker....to get all the way within 8 yards of a win and have that "young QB" mistake happen

to say the Buffalo game wasnt on Cutlers shoulders is very brash

and above, whoever said Marshall decided when the new regime came in he was going to do this...thats bull****

Marshall was waiting to hear about the suspension and it diddnt matter who was coaching he was going to hold out if he was cleared....its pretty obvious....

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 07:26 AM
Hey, that's not what I read here. Paging rugbythug......

Your Right. He is still under contract.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 07:47 AM
Proven?

You mean the losing QB who shat his pants against Buffalo with the playoffs on the line?

Or... are you talking about the woman beating receiver who can't stay out of cop cars who suddenly decided to stick a gun to our ribs?


Proven?

Beyond that, last I checked... both of these players forced their way out of town. One, because he's a totally p***Y. The other just wants a raise.

This isn't Bowlen "choosing" ****. It's two meatheads trying to loot the store during a change of guards.


TATA!!!

Adios MF's. **** these players who think they are above the TEAM. Whiney ass bastards can all go to a team were the fans wear grocery bags over their heads.

TonyR
06-17-2009, 07:54 AM
You really hit on it there SoCal ... every person, every player, every team has problems. The trick is managing the problems. Hell, that's the trick in life. For example, how many people knew Terry Bradhsaw had crippling depression that kept him alone and isolated from all his teammates? Most of them hated his guts ... yet they won 4 Super Boiwls because they MANAGED the problem. There doesn't seem to be any managing here.

The sad part about old geezer Popps railing like an angry old woman against first Jay and now Brandon, is that he doesn't even realize he's just parroting the party line: It's managment - first, last and always ... and he's so ANGRY in defending management. It's funny, but when e-Bay kicked Popp's sorry butt off of their site a year ago, suddenly THEN he questioned management.

Angry there, Popps ... whoa, boy ......

Buff I think you're WAY off here.

On the "managing problems" point, every team has problems. We're just closer to Denver's, have more emotion invested in Denver's, and have more biases to Denver's. So we react and overreact. But these problems are everywhere. Right now, Peppers in Carolina, Sheldon Brown in Philly (Lito Sheppard last year), Boldin in Arizona (and Warner months ago), the Jets have some player issues, Cleveland has some player issues, the Patriots have some player issues, the Colts have had some FO/coaching issues that Manning spoke up about, etc. I could go on and on. If you lived in those cities you'd be focused on their problems and overreacting to them in the same way. I don't think Denver is necessarily doing any better or worse than average in "managing" their problems. Every problem is different. Everyone is overreacting to the BM issue because of the Cutler saga. But if you step back and look at the BM situation it's hard to fault either side, particularly the FO. It's a player with issues who wants more money. Very common.

On the Terry Bradshaw analogy, that was before the age of the internet so you really can't make the comparison. Today that story would be all over the place.

As for Popps being "angry" I think it's all about perspective. From where I sit it's the anti McD crowd who come across as angry. They look particularly foolish to me because they overreact, make grand assumptions, and put blame where it doesn't necessarily belong based on those assumptions. I see Popps and many others, like myself, defending McD and being labeled "homers" because of it. It's all about perspective.

Smiling Assassin27
06-17-2009, 07:57 AM
In the words of Lee Corso, 'Not So Fast, My Friend!'...

You're under contract and you will report to play for Denver or you will sit this year out.

Sincerely,

Pat McDaniels Xanders

Rohirrim
06-17-2009, 07:59 AM
The most mind-boggling thing about all of this to me is that not one, single game has been played yet. Imagine the drama when the team starts losing games. :oyvey:

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 08:04 AM
Hey BroncoMuff,

Another night of tugging at my sack for attention, huh? You silly old c##t.
You just hang on to that anger, pal ... "nutsack" the "c" word are a nice touch, vintage Popps :thumbs:

Those issues of yours are probably better for a different message board though, huh?

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 08:20 AM
None of this talk matters yet ... we can't trade him now because of the hip. He must be healthy to get fair value in return. He wouldn't pass a physical right now anyway, so any trade partner would have to a) take damaged goods, and b) satisfy his contract demands. We're not gonna find that trading partner.

Cito Pelon
06-17-2009, 08:21 AM
Cutler had an excellent game against Buffalo. Blaming Cutler for that loss is ignorant.

Of course, if it was Plummer, you'd have blamed everyone but the quarterback. You're inconsistent like that.

Every other offseason, you whine cry and moan about how we ignore the defensive line. This offseason, we completely ignore the defensive line focusing on offense and secondary, and you're telling us this is our best offseason in ten years.

Inconsistent.

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29763/DEN_Gamebook.pdf

If you call going 16 for 31 in the second half with zero TD passes and one INT, and a 72.4 QB rating for the game excellent.

Denver had a 13-10 lead at the half. Then scored 10 pts in the 2nd half and Cutler went 16 for 31 with zero TD passes and an INT in the 4th quarter. The INT at the 1 yd-line with the score 30-23 and 5:42 left in the game.

Then Cutler misses Stokley on 2 passes into the endzone from the 15 yd line as time expires.

It was not an excellent game by Cutler against a Bills team that had lost like 8 in a row, at Mile High, to win the AFC West title.

72.4 QB rating for the game. Poor 2nd half, and poor 4th quarter. Not all Cutler's fault, that's for sure, but I think it's fair to say Cutler gagged when the Division Title was on the line.

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 08:23 AM
That Buffalo game was so painful ... I'd rather not remember it.

Jay played "great" for the first half, maybe even three quarters, but he faded in the 4th.

montrose
06-17-2009, 08:31 AM
That Buffalo game was so painful ... I'd rather not remember it.

Jay played "great" for the first half, maybe even three quarters, but he faded in the 4th.

That was one of the hardest games to ever attend. Watching Jay choke like that, twice, after the defense actually forced a 3-and-out was awful.

Lolad
06-17-2009, 08:43 AM
So how is McD different from Shanahan? Shanny had a staunch rule that he would not redo rookie contracts. See Clinton Portis. Good for Bowlen and McD. Marshall is a head case and is one slip up away from spending the season away from the team.

I think you have it wrong. Portis was going to get a new deal that looked something what mike Anderson got. Portis wanted more money so shanny told him to find a suitor and he would trade him

Broncoman13
06-17-2009, 09:25 AM
I don't know about Cutler playing so poorly that game. I was there too and it was horrible to witness the meltdown. I think it was that game that I felt maybe it was time for Shanny to go. In the first quarter we had a chance to easily be up by 21. The play calling was terrible. We had the ball inside the 20 on every possession it seems and we were running the ball quite well too. Then we get a bit too predictable. Throwing the ball inside the 10 on three consecutive downs and again the following drive. Instead of a 21-0 ball game we're in a 13-0 ball game. Of course, a lot of that had to do with Pope going down and Bell/Young not running worth a shiat!

But I digress. You guys can throw out stats all day long. Cutler threw for 360 yards and had 1 INT on the day. He also had a bunch of yards rushing and 2 TDs on the ground, how convenient that you stat boys forget to mention that... and the obvious fact that rushing stats are not calculated into the passer rating.

Pretty hard to argue that 390 total yards and 2 TDs with one turnover (INT) is a bad game. If we can get those types of bad games from Kyle Orton, McD will look like a genius!!!

btw, PJ Pope in the first couple drives 6 carries for 44 yards. One of those was good for 20 yards. So 24 yards on the other 5 carries. The final carry when he was injured was a 2 yard gain. So basically he avg'd 5.5 to 6 yards per carry if you throw out the high and lows. That first drive he went for 42 yards on 5 carries!!! The rest of the game, Tatum Bell and Selvin Young ran for a total of 36 yards on 12 carries. Yeah, after the first drive it all went on Jay Cutler's shoulders.

I can't believe this is so hard to see???

Inkana7
06-17-2009, 10:28 AM
Cutler had an excellent game against Buffalo. Blaming Cutler for that loss is ignorant.

Of course, if it was Plummer, you'd have blamed everyone but the quarterback. You're inconsistent like that.

Every other offseason, you whine cry and moan about how we ignore the defensive line. This offseason, we completely ignore the defensive line focusing on offense and secondary, and you're telling us this is our best offseason in ten years.

Inconsistent.

Yeah, his two Goal line turnovers in the 4th quarter and numerous incomplete passes when we had someone wide open deep was "excellent".

Kaylore
06-17-2009, 12:04 PM
Does this mean that the owner always has to do whatever it takes to back up the coach (even if he might personally believe that the coach is somewhat or more off course) ?

Yup. Until he puts his product out there and he gets a chance for it to sink or swim, you back your guy up and let him do everything he believes he needs to do to succeed. If after a fair shake its in ruins, you know that its him and not other things ie "You didn't get my guys, you didn't get my coaches, you didn't give me enough resources, etc."

We made the bed and now we have to sleep in it for at least two years. That means full and total support until we've had a few seasons to really see how things look. You certainly don't hire and fire a coach in the same season. That will make everyone jump ship because the players will have no faith in anything.

Kaylore
06-17-2009, 12:07 PM
That Buffalo game was so painful ... I'd rather not remember it.

Jay played "great" for the first half, maybe even three quarters, but he faded in the 4th.

We had chances too, but Cutler missed them. Out drinking the night before as well.

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 12:17 PM
We had chances too, but Cutler missed them. Out drinking the night before as well.
Yeah, just like all the Packers before SBs I and II, not to mention the Cowboys ... and even John before countless games early in his career.

I sure would like to see some pre-Cutler-gate negative Jay posts outta you after-the-fact guys.

No offense Khan, but this Popp-brand of after the fact Jay-bashing seems very self-serving to me.


;D

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 12:18 PM
Does this mean that the owner always has to do whatever it takes to back up the coach (even if he might personally believe that the coach is somewhat or more off course) ?

Wrong question ... the more relevant question is, "Should the owner back up his rookie head coach, who has elbowed his way into GM duties despite having no front office experience?"

And the answer is "no, he should strip him of his GM duties and tell him to keep his butt downstairs on the field where he belongs. He's never even been a head coach on any level before, much less a front office guy ... he's got enough to worry about on the field without elbowing into the front office and bungling things."

Gotta keep those two duties separate ... Josh as a coach promises to be very exciting .... but Josh as a GM has been disastrous. Pat's fault ... he should have known better than to give a green kid the keys to the front office.


;D

Hulamau
06-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Sometimes when you may a decision you have to follow that decision through. Pat Bowlen decided to buy into McD's philosophy. Shanahan is gone, Cutler gone, and now there is a very real chance that Brandon Marshall is gone. At this point Pat Bowlen doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's not like he can say, okay Mike, Jay, Brandon... I made a mistake, everybody come back and lets start over. Nope, he's past the point of no return and therefore has no choice but to continue with McD and hope that the philosophy he originally bought into, turns out as he had hoped or envisioned from the beginning.

As for what is so great about McD... There is a good story that he tells. It talks about wins for years and having a system that is successful regardless of the players. I don't think either one of them planned on dealing with these types of issues this soon. But, that story is what Bowlen hedged his bets on, and so he has an opportunity to see very early on if McD is all that he envisioned.

As for Nick's question, Bowlen isn't willing to part with his "stars" quite as quickly. Not b/c he wants them but b/c he does't want to deal with the fan's reactions. Can anyone hear name a time when he sent out an email to season ticket holders asking for patience and to have faith? Unprecedented. McD's philosophy (as was Shanny's) is that you can leave if you don't want to be here. Bowlen generally buys into that and lets his "football people" deal with those issues. But now he sees that those decisions are costing him a lot of fan support. For every "Popps" or "ApaOps" there are seven or eight "Oskies", "bpcs", "SoCals", "TJs", "Montroses", "TheDaves" and "ALFs". To be fair, I like McD. I think he is going to be a very good coach. I just think he is a bit too aggressive a bit too soon. I think most of the folks that are against what is happening right now would agree that some sort of change was necessary. Same as Pat Bowlen. But, this much change is counter productive and now has the potential to set a franchise back a long ways.

To compound matters, we're already in a tough economic time. Bronco fans are loyal to a fault, but even the faithful have their limits. When faced with a tough decision to buy tickets/merchandise for the Broncos or save that money fans are more and more likely to save that money in this economy... especially when the product on the field looks this rocky. Guys like ApaOps, Popps, and even Montrose, myself, TJ, and several others that aren't in favor of the most recent moves understand the necessity of these moves. But the majority of the population in Denver won't know anything other than, We fired a HOF coach, brought in a kid that has zero experience and the proceeded to trade our best players... and yes, the perception in Denver is that Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall were the best players on the team.

So now you know why Bowlen and McD are starting to get a little sideways. Bowlen buys into McD's plan but didn't anticipate having to deal with "fallout" this early. McD only sees one thing which is his plan, but now Bowlen is starting to worry even more about fan support and the "bottom line". The problem I see is that Bowlen isn't communicating his concerns to McD. So McD continues to carry his hardline approach, meanwhile Bowlen gets involved with discussions with players and two different philosophies come out. Then you have a douche like BMarsh trying to take advantage of that situation by making those issues public.

Sorry for rambling on...

Over all some good points Oskie but you are really reaching on this idea that McD and Bowlen are getting sideways with each other simply over some backwards inference from the agent of a disgruntled WR when they both are trying to set the tone and get out first with their spin story, while the Broncos are content, so far, to keep a lid on it.

Also, McD did not set out to trade his stars in any way shape or form. He was as excited as anyone to have both Cutler and Marshall on the team! Once the idea of the Cassel PLUS multiple options was presented, he did take a hard look for his obvious associations and success with Cassel which would have helped him start quickly AND the possibility of improving the whole team. But it NEVER made it to trade status nor even to Bowlen's desk.

No doubt the details of the whole affair could have been handled a little more deftly and with more nuance early on, but that hardly qualifies as hi coming in LOOKING to trade Cutler.

I've little doubt that its possible McD may have seen things in Jay's approach to the new regime and his role here early on ( perhaps his demanding a trade right after Bates was canned for example??:-) that may have given him pause about Cutler's true commitment and match as a 'get with the program' kind of team guy.

So while he may have had a little extra incentive to perk up and listen to the possibilities when the Cassel PLUS picks idea floated across his desk, It hardly makes him a guy LOOKING to trade Cutler and Marshall as well from the get go!

That kind of loose and unsupportable assumption is at the very foundation of a lot of blown idea about what is really going on here.

We have two Prima Donna numbskulls hiking their way out of Town. Cutler mostly because he's just a F**King self-centered cry baby and Marshall simply because he wants to get paid (nothing wrong with that) but is a highly impressionable young idiot and too stupid to go about his 'negotiations' with a little class and character.

McD may have made a few tactical missteps along the way, but to paint him as the instigator and author of all this Gedoe is going overboard.

summerdenver
06-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Walker started that the year before his knee injury. Everyone gave him a hard time and he showed up and played. The first game of the season, a Monday nighter if I remember correctly he blew out his knee. That was the last time he ever played for the Packers.

Yes it was against Det I believe. Brett also got a lot of bad rap because he called out Walker in the press and said something like if you sign a contract, come and play (Ironically like Rod did last week)

IIRC, the story was that Walker was told to report to the team and they will talk about the contract. He cam back on good faith but TT went back on his word when he got hurt.

BrainSaladSurgery
06-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Just cut your losses & hire Undead Al to finish sinking this leaky tub. :strong:

rastaman
06-17-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't know about Cutler playing so poorly that game. I was there too and it was horrible to witness the meltdown. I think it was that game that I felt maybe it was time for Shanny to go. In the first quarter we had a chance to easily be up by 21. The play calling was terrible. We had the ball inside the 20 on every possession it seems and we were running the ball quite well too. Then we get a bit too predictable. Throwing the ball inside the 10 on three consecutive downs and again the following drive. Instead of a 21-0 ball game we're in a 13-0 ball game. Of course, a lot of that had to do with Pope going down and Bell/Young not running worth a shiat!

But I digress. You guys can throw out stats all day long. Cutler threw for 360 yards and had 1 INT on the day. He also had a bunch of yards rushing and 2 TDs on the ground, how convenient that you stat boys forget to mention that... and the obvious fact that rushing stats are not calculated into the passer rating.

Pretty hard to argue that 390 total yards and 2 TDs with one turnover (INT) is a bad game. If we can get those types of bad games from Kyle Orton, McD will look like a genius!!!

btw, PJ Pope in the first couple drives 6 carries for 44 yards. One of those was good for 20 yards. So 24 yards on the other 5 carries. The final carry when he was injured was a 2 yard gain. So basically he avg'd 5.5 to 6 yards per carry if you throw out the high and lows. That first drive he went for 42 yards on 5 carries!!! The rest of the game, Tatum Bell and Selvin Young ran for a total of 36 yards on 12 carries. Yeah, after the first drive it all went on Jay Cutler's shoulders.

I can't believe this is so hard to see???

Good point. What played a pivotal role in the Broncos enitre season was loosing 7 RB's to season ending injuries. In fact the entire keys to the success of the 08 season was having a healthy stable of running backs. A healthy effective tandem of RB's all season long would have ensured 4 or 2 victories. Once Hillis went down for the season......the Broncos season was over.

I'd argue the lack of a consistent running attack and the season ending injuries suffered by 7 RB's hurt Denver worst than their horrible Defense. Shanny was fired not so much for the bad defensive performance, it was b/c of the intrinsic impact of an injured non-consistent running attack.

dbfan21
06-17-2009, 01:08 PM
Just curious...has anyone posted their thoughts on Marshall's website blog?

I haven't seen any comments in this thread about it.

Rivers Delivers
06-17-2009, 01:57 PM
While I hated seeing Cutler leave the AFC West... I will not hate waving bye bye to BM.



RIVERS DELIVERS

Archer81
06-17-2009, 01:58 PM
While I hated seeing Cutler leave the AFC West... I will not hate waving bye bye to BM.



RIVERS DELIVERS



What does he deliver, exactly?


:Broncos:

Rivers Delivers
06-17-2009, 02:37 PM
What does he deliver, exactly?


WINS

Atlas
06-17-2009, 02:54 PM
Explain.

Why is it good for us to have Bowlen constantly choosing McDaniels over proven and valuable pieces of the club? What's so special about him? What does he bring to the table that's more important than Cutler, Marshall and the next stud that is going to get shipped out? Is it really substantially the player's fault every time? How many times do we have to ship guys out until we can take a look at the law of averages and come to the conclusion that it's really unlikely that its the player's fault EVERY time?

What is so valuable about this kid? Is it Bowlen's ego? Is it sending a message? Well, I deal in tangibles, I don't really care about sending messages, because they aren't worth anything to me. There isn't going to be a snowball effect of holdouts because not every single person has the same amount of leverage and value.

At the end of the day, we've sacrificed two of our three best players in favor of someone who's never really accomplished anything of value for us.

That's not good for Bronco fans.


Don't worry about this SoCal. McDaniels is going to be the greatest coach ever. These moves you see today will propell the Broncos to the Superbowl! McDaniels has this great thing called the "Belichick Factory" Denver will win 3 of the next 5 Superbowls. New England Patriots West will go down in the Anals of NFL History!!

WAAHHHOOOO Go McDaniels!!!

uplink
06-17-2009, 02:57 PM
Well at least he thanked the fans for supporting him, that 'other guy' didn't
do this did he?

bronclvr
06-17-2009, 03:04 PM
These moves you see today will propell the Broncos to the Superbowl! McDaniels has this great thing called the "Belichick Factory" Denver will win 3 of the next 5 Superbowls. New England Patriots West will go down in the Anals of NFL History!!

Are you sure you didn't mean the "ANNALS" of History? Wait, since you included the Patriots you were probably right-:wiggle:

mr007
06-17-2009, 03:14 PM
Just curious...has anyone posted their thoughts on Marshall's website blog?

I haven't seen any comments in this thread about it.

I posted a comment.... pending approval =).

DenverBrit
06-17-2009, 03:19 PM
WINS

SBs? AFC Championships?

crush17
06-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Just curious...has anyone posted their thoughts on Marshall's website blog?

I haven't seen any comments in this thread about it.

I did.

BroncoInferno
06-17-2009, 05:11 PM
It's hard to believe he came to this decision based on one meeting. I think Marshall's been thinking this through since the regime change. Maybe he feels his game suffers without Cutler, or maybe he knows some things we don't about that whole fiasco, or maybe he's been the recipient of some of what SI's Michael Silver termed the arrogance of the Belichick disciples, cited by both players and employees of Cleveland, the Jets, KC and Denver.

Or maybe he just wants a larger salary. In fact, by all indications, that's precisely the case. And it's nothing unusual across the league (see Bolden, Johnson, Peppers). Stretching to pin this on McD is simply stupid.

NYBronco
06-17-2009, 05:40 PM
"While Marshall’s issue with the team is primarily about money, he also has cited a lack of trust in Denver’s medical staff for not wanting to rehab at team headquarters following what he has called a misdiagnosis of his hip injury last year."

McD doesn't appear to have anything to do with Marshall leaving unless he is part of Denver's medical staff that misdianosed his hip injury last year.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-17-2009, 09:28 PM
http://i.tsn.com/i/photos/20090617/117211.gif

SoCalBronco
06-17-2009, 09:34 PM
"While Marshall’s issue with the team is primarily about money, he also has cited a lack of trust in Denver’s medical staff for not wanting to rehab at team headquarters following what he has called a misdiagnosis of his hip injury last year."

McD doesn't appear to have anything to do with Marshall leaving unless he is part of Denver's medical staff that misdianosed his hip injury last year.

Well....McD could start by firing Greek. It's not the first time, or the second or third or even tenth time he's ****ed something up.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 09:43 PM
Well....McD could start by firing Greek. It's not the first time, or the second or third or even tenth time he's ****ed something up.

Thats Bowlens call.

SoCalBronco
06-17-2009, 09:48 PM
Thats Bowlens call.

Ok...then he should do it. Sack up, Bowlen.

theAPAOps5
06-17-2009, 09:49 PM
Ok...then he should do it. Sack up, Bowlen.

Won't argue this one!

BroncoInferno
06-17-2009, 10:15 PM
Well....McD could start by firing Greek. It's not the first time, or the second or third or even tenth time he's ****ed something up.

You know, I've thought the same thing, but the odd thing about Greek is that he is well respected in NFL circles and considered somewhat of an innovator in the field. Maybe the issues with stamina (i.e. fading in second half of games and late in the season) and late season injuries had more to do with Shanny's approach to camp (Randy Gradishar called it a country club) coupled perhaps with bad luck more so than Greek sucking.

bronco610
06-17-2009, 10:17 PM
You know, I've thought the same thing, but the odd thing about Greek is that he is well respected in NFL circles and considered somewhat of an innovator in the field. Maybe the issues with stamina (i.e. fading in second half of games and late in the season) and late season injuries had more to do with Shanny's approach to camp (Randy Gradishar called it a country club) coupled perhaps with bad luck more so than Greek sucking.

But what about mis-diagnosis?

BroncoInferno
06-17-2009, 10:22 PM
But what about mis-diagnosis?

True. I really don't know, but I've read several times that Greek is highly thought of across the league and considered somewhat of an innovator. That said, the failure to diagnose both Cutler and Marshall is troubling.

Come to think of it, are such things even the responsibility of Greek, or is there a separate medical staff? Is Greek actually a medical doctor? If not, then it would not really be his responsibility to diagnose injuries. Anyone know?

bronco610
06-17-2009, 10:23 PM
True. I really don't know, but I've read several times that Greek is highly thought of across the league and considered somewhat of an innovator. That said, the failure to diagnose both Cutler and Marshall is troubling.

Come to think of it, are such things even the responsibility of Greek, or is there a separate medical staff? Is Greek actually a medical doctor? If not, then it would not really be his responsibility to diagnose injuries. Anyone know?

Good questions !!!

SoCalBronco
06-17-2009, 10:43 PM
True. I really don't know, but I've read several times that Greek is highly thought of across the league and considered somewhat of an innovator. That said, the failure to diagnose both Cutler and Marshall is troubling.

Come to think of it, are such things even the responsibility of Greek, or is there a separate medical staff? Is Greek actually a medical doctor? If not, then it would not really be his responsibility to diagnose injuries. Anyone know?

I don't think Greek is an MD but it seems that these things would come within the purview of his job as head trainer, nonetheless. I've seen numerous clips of Shanny asking him on the sideline what happened with a player and then Greek giving a diagnosis (MCL tear, sprain etc.). It's probably a little more tricky with regard to a trainer discovering internal issues like diabetes as opposed to a purely orthopedic injury (such as a hip problem), but there has been mention before of periodic blood tests by the training staff so presumably he would have something more than a rudimentary level of knowledge of even internal conditions, at least things that can generally be detected by such blood tests (otherwise the training staff would probably not be the ones administering them and recording intakes from them).

tsiguy96
06-17-2009, 10:52 PM
greek is an athletic trainer, i believe. they cannot diagnose, they certainly dont have the medical training to do procedures, most football teams "outsource" their real MD work. greek would have nothing to do with marshalls hip or really cutlers diabetes(though after so many years, athletic trainers do learn a lot about the body, a lot of medical conditions etc and it should have been obvious). AT's are more responsible for rehab and finding structural problems with the body...

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 10:56 PM
greek is an athletic trainer, i believe. they cannot diagnose, they certainly dont have the medical training to do procedures, most football teams "outsource" their real MD work. greek would have nothing to do with marshalls hip or really cutlers diabetes(though after so many years, athletic trainers do learn a lot about the body, a lot of medical conditions etc and it should have been obvious). AT's are more responsible for rehab and finding structural problems with the body...

That's correct.

boppool
06-18-2009, 06:45 AM
http://i.tsn.com/i/photos/20090617/117211.gif

I love it!!! lol