God and Man

[Rohirrim]

"Hence a certain tension between religion and society marks the higher stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness. Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a "conflict between science and religion." Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control, and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and-after some hesitation- the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile among the oppressed another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization." Will Durant


Comments? ;D

[Miss I.]

"Hence a certain tension between owner and fans marks the higher stages of every team in the NFL. The owner begins by hiring a new coach for overpaid and whiny players; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to crying and bitching; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and football history, which changes like the Colorado weather, every 15 minutes. Owner control of player personnel is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and OM discussiontakes on the character of a "conflict between owner and fans." Players which were at first in the hands of the general manager, like pay, training, drafts, tend to escape from coaching control, and become isnane, perhaps profane. The smart fans abandon the whiny biatch players and-after some hesitation- stop crying about the skills leaving; selfish players become anti-team development. The movement of liberation of idiot players gives rise to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea of the drunken owner. Conduct, deprived of its irrational, immature supports, deteriorates into orange mane meltdown; and life itself, shorn of consoling loyalty to player-individual, becomes a burden alike to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end a football fan board and it's loyalty to specifc players tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile among the oppressed another myth arises, gives new form to fan hope, new courage to team effort, and after an off season chaos builds another team." Will Durant


Comments? ;D

see changes above...;D

[Rohirrim]

see changes above...;D

Well done. ;D

[Miss I.]

Well done. ;D

Thank you. Occasionally alcohol helps...I think I might've mixed up varying theories of team vs owner vs coaching issues, but it gets it across..;D

As for the actual religion vs science, it's a good take. But I think both have a place in society, but I tend to lean towards a secular humanist with belief in a higher authority but only in a vague sense of nature, etc. I think science has some answers, but a lot is still theoretical as religion is philosophical in nature. Rules of conduct are necessary, but not certain all the ones established by religion are entirely rational. Though I also am not certain all rules should be entirely dry and scientific, we live in a gray world and there is always going to be conflict over establishing certain ideologies...

Okay serious talk done...;D

[Odysseus]

Whose the chic with the whip and why is she scaring me? :)

[SJ Bronco]

Whose the chic with the whip and why is she scaring me? :)

I'm not scared, but I am feeling something else because of her...:thumbs:

[ghwk]

see changes above...;D

Stealth Thread Hijack!!!

[SJ Bronco]

This thread died fast. I don't think I was ignoring the topic intentionally, I just didn't have a comment. I'm an atheist, but I don't care if people want to worship a deity. As long as they don't interfere in government, education, health care, or the rights of minors to these things.

I will say when people find out I'm an atheist, I get a lot of crap i don't deserve.

[Rohirrim]

I think Durant's statement had more to do with the rise and fall of civilizations and their reliance on mythologies. People need a vision of who they are and what their society means. Another of Durant's more famous quotes is: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within"

[SJ Bronco]

I think Durant's statement had more to do with the rise and fall of civilizations and their reliance on mythologies. People need a vision of who they are and what their society means. Another of Durant's more famous quotes is: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within"

I've heard that one, and let me tell you, there hasn't been a more true statement. No one is going to take down the US, we already did the dirty work. Ask the Chinese who own about 30% of our debt.

[Miss I.]

I think Durant's statement had more to do with the rise and fall of civilizations and their reliance on mythologies. People need a vision of who they are and what their society means. Another of Durant's more famous quotes is: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within"

I concur, but at the same time it reminds me of a professor in college who believed the best way to teach was to tear everything you already knew down and build you back up...I don't know that I like that as a mode of teaching...but it does apply when great civilizations fall or you know great football teams...with a little nudge from outside organizations like those Patriots...those bastards! ;D

[Rohirrim]

I concur, but at the same time it reminds me of a professor in college who believed the best way to teach was to tear everything you already knew down and build you back up...I don't know that I like that as a mode of teaching...but it does apply when great civilizations fall or you know great football teams...with a little nudge from outside organizations like those Patriots...those bastards! ;D

That's the Socratic method; Question everything until you truly know what you think you know. So many people just believe whatever their family or friends or society believe, without question. I sometimes wonder what effect the choice of god, or gods, has on a society. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, et al (ie. the Western tradition) were polytheists. And if you think about it, their gods were just as screwed up as they were, always sneaking down to take some animal shape and seduce a young virgin. Cheating on their wives. Betraying each other. Of course, one wonders if some young "virgin" (once her belly started swelling) didn't tell Dad, "I was down by the lake and Zeus, in the form of a swan, came down and forced himself upon me. Ergo, my baby is half god." Yeah, that's the ticket (virgin birth anybody?). Anyway, those people lived in a world full of eccentric, unreliable, powerful, but often jealous or deceitful gods. Sometimes they would help. Sometimes not. There were gods of the sky, of the wind, of the sea, of the rivers, of the storm, of the underworld, etc. There were even gods unraveling the thread of our individual fate, and eventually, snipping it off.

Then, the West traded in that squirrelly pantheon (which one could argue better represents the natural world) for the single, Hebrew god. He was perfect; All-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, aloof and distant. Instantly, instead of humankind walking with their gods, as they had been doing, they became schmucks. What's the first story in the biblical tradition of man and god? God makes a paradise and puts man (and later, woman) in it. What do they do? They **** it up. Ever since then, we've been schmucks. In fact, getting booted out of Eden was our original act of schmuckiness that God still holds against us. Of course, the christians claim that Jesus later comes down and absolves us of some of our schmuckiness, but still we all know, big daddy is still up in the sky somewhere, only being held off momentarily from smiting all our schmuck asses.

If you think of it, the people reflect the gods they believe in. The Norse were a fatalistic people with a fatalistic mythology. So were the Romans. What part of Allah makes the Muslim world what it is, or Buddha the culture of the East? We reflect our gods.

So, if our gods were different would we have built a different world? For instance, if we didn't believe that what really counts is the life after this one, would we trash this planet with impunity? If we didn't believe there was a "great absolver of sin" out there somewhere, would we be so quick to kill? If we didn't believe we were god's special little children, would we be so quick to wipe out the other species we share this world with? And even if we don't believe in any of these gods, we live in a world shaped by them (or the belief in them) whether we like it or not. Will there come a time when there are no more gods?

[That One Guy]

That's the Socratic method; Question everything until you truly know what you think you know. So many people just believe whatever their family or friends or society believe, without question. I sometimes wonder what effect the choice of god, or gods, has on a society. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, et al (ie. the Western tradition) were polytheists. And if you think about it, their gods were just as screwed up as they were, always sneaking down to take some animal shape and seduce a young virgin. Cheating on their wives. Betraying each other. Of course, one wonders if some young "virgin" (once her belly started swelling) didn't tell Dad, "I was down by the lake and Zeus, in the form of a swan, came down and forced himself upon me. Ergo, my baby is half god." Yeah, that's the ticket (virgin birth anybody?). Anyway, those people lived in a world full of eccentric, unreliable, powerful, but often jealous or deceitful gods. Sometimes they would help. Sometimes not. There were gods of the sky, of the wind, of the sea, of the rivers, of the storm, of the underworld, etc. There were even gods unraveling the thread of our individual fate, and eventually, snipping it off.

Then, the West traded in that squirrelly pantheon (which one could argue better represents the natural world) for the single, Hebrew god. He was perfect; All-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, aloof and distant. Instantly, instead of humankind walking with their gods, as they had been doing, they became schmucks. What's the first story in the biblical tradition of man and god? God makes a paradise and puts man (and later, woman) in it. What do they do? They **** it up. Ever since then, we've been schmucks. In fact, getting booted out of Eden was our original act of schmuckiness that God still holds against us. Of course, the christians claim that Jesus later comes down and absolves us of some of our schmuckiness, but still we all know, big daddy is still up in the sky somewhere, only being held off momentarily from smiting all our schmuck asses.

If you think of it, the people reflect the gods they believe in. The Norse were a fatalistic people with a fatalistic mythology. So were the Romans. What part of Allah makes the Muslim world what it is, or Buddha the culture of the East? We reflect our gods.

So, if our gods were different would we have built a different world? For instance, if we didn't believe that what really counts is the life after this one, would we trash this planet with impunity? If we didn't believe there was a "great absolver of sin" out there somewhere, would we be so quick to kill? If we didn't believe we were god's special little children, would we be so quick to wipe out the other species we share this world with? And even if we don't believe in any of these gods, we live in a world shaped by them (or the belief in them) whether we like it or not. Will there come a time when there are no more gods?

But if there were no ULTIMATE repercussions for killing, would we not kill every time we got the urge to? A greater good or responsibility makes people think beyond the instant gratification or urge.

[Rohirrim]

But if there were no ULTIMATE repercussions for killing, would we not kill every time we got the urge to? A greater good or responsibility makes people think beyond the instant gratification or urge.

Does the nature of our god define our morality? After all, our god (the Western/Hebrew god) smote Sodom and Gomorrah (among many other things). Ergo, there are instances where it is okay to not only kill, but to obliterate. I do as my father does. If that was not our god, would we look at killing differently?

[Miss I.]

look how smart you are...the socractic method (excuse the spelling, a bit of vino)..I have Plato on my night table, but just to look smart...either that or it's left over from my religious studies degree...Personally my belief is mishmash...I was raised Catholic (which still has that guilt stranglehold every time I have an impure thought...stupid men, why must I be so lustful..it's all that freaking talking serpent's fault - tell me that's not phallic) I tend to subscribe to the idea there is something larger then we are, but not sure any religion has it covered...I figure God is covering all his bases and appearing in whatever way works the audience most effectively...he's like a really good salesperson...so some people are Buddhist, Catholic, etc. Mostly I don't know, but there are some great thigns in the Bible and in other religious texts in terms of philosophy and wisdom to live by, but then again some of the Greek Philosophers were pretty good too, as well as my favorites, the Transcendentalists, Thoreau and Emerson...but I like what you posted...but there is a place for religion and philosophy, just not linked directly to government. (and no I am not a pure transcendentalist, I just like some of their philosophy...course I am not pure anything..;D

[Smiling Assassin27]

If you think of it, the people reflect the gods they believe in.

This is true of many religions which reflect man's search for God. A truer religion would entail God's search for man. As such, humans try in vain to reflect God, but inevitably fail by virtue of their human nature. We are called sinners for a reason--because we utterly fail in our attempt to imitate divine love. That is an intrinsic difference between say, the Romans, who gave their gods fallible and human traits (and then imitated them) and any of the three monotheistic giants like Islam, Judaism, or Christianity, who believe God has revealed his perfection in His ways and means and that we could never hope to attain it in our purely human nature.

[alkemical]

That's the Socratic method; Question everything until you truly know what you think you know. So many people just believe whatever their family or friends or society believe, without question. I sometimes wonder what effect the choice of god, or gods, has on a society. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, et al (ie. the Western tradition) were polytheists. And if you think about it, their gods were just as screwed up as they were, always sneaking down to take some animal shape and seduce a young virgin. Cheating on their wives. Betraying each other. Of course, one wonders if some young "virgin" (once her belly started swelling) didn't tell Dad, "I was down by the lake and Zeus, in the form of a swan, came down and forced himself upon me. Ergo, my baby is half god." Yeah, that's the ticket (virgin birth anybody?). Anyway, those people lived in a world full of eccentric, unreliable, powerful, but often jealous or deceitful gods. Sometimes they would help. Sometimes not. There were gods of the sky, of the wind, of the sea, of the rivers, of the storm, of the underworld, etc. There were even gods unraveling the thread of our individual fate, and eventually, snipping it off.

Then, the West traded in that squirrelly pantheon (which one could argue better represents the natural world) for the single, Hebrew god. He was perfect; All-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, aloof and distant. Instantly, instead of humankind walking with their gods, as they had been doing, they became schmucks. What's the first story in the biblical tradition of man and god? God makes a paradise and puts man (and later, woman) in it. What do they do? They **** it up. Ever since then, we've been schmucks. In fact, getting booted out of Eden was our original act of schmuckiness that God still holds against us. Of course, the christians claim that Jesus later comes down and absolves us of some of our schmuckiness, but still we all know, big daddy is still up in the sky somewhere, only being held off momentarily from smiting all our schmuck asses.

If you think of it, the people reflect the gods they believe in. The Norse were a fatalistic people with a fatalistic mythology. So were the Romans. What part of Allah makes the Muslim world what it is, or Buddha the culture of the East? We reflect our gods.

So, if our gods were different would we have built a different world? For instance, if we didn't believe that what really counts is the life after this one, would we trash this planet with impunity? If we didn't believe there was a "great absolver of sin" out there somewhere, would we be so quick to kill? If we didn't believe we were god's special little children, would we be so quick to wipe out the other species we share this world with? And even if we don't believe in any of these gods, we live in a world shaped by them (or the belief in them) whether we like it or not. Will there come a time when there are no more gods?

“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

Robert Anton Wilson quote

[Northman]

Soon, you will all be groveling in the wake of the God Anubis. That is all...

[alkemical]

Dude, i'm of the Thoth element. Anubis doesn't scare me. He does my work.

[Northman]

Dude, i'm of the Thoth element. Anubis doesn't scare me. He does my work.

:spit:

Thats what you would call great teamwork then. lol

[alkemical]

:spit:

Thats what you would call great teamwork then. lol

lol ;)

for an ibis headed bird dude - he does kick ass. He also worked with Isis a lot. ;)

[Kid A]

That's the Socratic method; Question everything until you truly know what you think you know. So many people just believe whatever their family or friends or society believe, without question. I sometimes wonder what effect the choice of god, or gods, has on a society. The Greeks, Romans, Celts, et al (ie. the Western tradition) were polytheists. And if you think about it, their gods were just as screwed up as they were, always sneaking down to take some animal shape and seduce a young virgin. Cheating on their wives. Betraying each other. Of course, one wonders if some young "virgin" (once her belly started swelling) didn't tell Dad, "I was down by the lake and Zeus, in the form of a swan, came down and forced himself upon me. Ergo, my baby is half god." Yeah, that's the ticket (virgin birth anybody?). Anyway, those people lived in a world full of eccentric, unreliable, powerful, but often jealous or deceitful gods. Sometimes they would help. Sometimes not. There were gods of the sky, of the wind, of the sea, of the rivers, of the storm, of the underworld, etc. There were even gods unraveling the thread of our individual fate, and eventually, snipping it off.

Then, the West traded in that squirrelly pantheon (which one could argue better represents the natural world) for the single, Hebrew god. He was perfect; All-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, aloof and distant. Instantly, instead of humankind walking with their gods, as they had been doing, they became schmucks. What's the first story in the biblical tradition of man and god? God makes a paradise and puts man (and later, woman) in it. What do they do? They **** it up. Ever since then, we've been schmucks. In fact, getting booted out of Eden was our original act of schmuckiness that God still holds against us. Of course, the christians claim that Jesus later comes down and absolves us of some of our schmuckiness, but still we all know, big daddy is still up in the sky somewhere, only being held off momentarily from smiting all our schmuck asses.

If you think of it, the people reflect the gods they believe in. The Norse were a fatalistic people with a fatalistic mythology. So were the Romans. What part of Allah makes the Muslim world what it is, or Buddha the culture of the East? We reflect our gods.

So, if our gods were different would we have built a different world? For instance, if we didn't believe that what really counts is the life after this one, would we trash this planet with impunity? If we didn't believe there was a "great absolver of sin" out there somewhere, would we be so quick to kill? If we didn't believe we were god's special little children, would we be so quick to wipe out the other species we share this world with? And even if we don't believe in any of these gods, we live in a world shaped by them (or the belief in them) whether we like it or not. Will there come a time when there are no more gods?

You reminded me of a new book out that I really want to read. It's called The Evolution of God (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316734918/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=3786450537&ref=pd_sl_84h72ygrur_e ).

From what I can tell, it basically outlines the author's thoughts on how religions and their gods have evolved through human history, kind of like you were talking about: polytheism to monotheism, tribal to universal.

His thesis seems to be that our gods have (and should continue to) become more tolerant and loving, creating positive progress for overall humanity. I believe the author argues for a very non-supernatural/material understanding of God, but also sees the concept of God as an important/legitimate part of human progress.

Newsweek had a good review, explaining why this book's angle may be preferable to that of the "New Atheists" vs "Theists" debate: http://www.newsweek.com/id/199697

Wright doesn't argue one side or other of the "Is God real?" question. He leaves that aside. Instead, he grapples with God as an idea that has changed—evolved—through history...

But he never argues that what he calls a materialist view of scripture disproves God. Instead, he takes another approach: as our societies have grown more complex and more global, our conceptions of God have grown more demanding and more moral. This is a good thing, for religion can "help us orient our daily lives, recognize good and bad, and make sense of joy and suffering alike." Wright is optimistic even about Islam in today's world: "The ratio of good to bad scriptures varies among the Abrahamic faiths, but in all religions it's possible for benign interpretation of scripture to flourish."

"You might say," he writes in his afterword, "that love and truth are the two primary manifestations of divinity in which we can partake, and that by partaking in them we become truer manifestations of the divine. Then again, you might not say that. The point is just that you wouldn't have to be crazy to say it."

Anyway, I like to see someone taking a different angle on the whole thing, and hopefully creating a more meaningful discussion.