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rugbythug
06-16-2009, 09:42 AM
Related to Grocery union potential strike.

USMCBladerunner
06-16-2009, 09:50 AM
I don't live in CO anymore, but I used to shop past the picketters at King Soopers back in the mid 90's. They're back at it huh? The butchers need relief from their exploitively low $40.00 an hour?

USMCBladerunner
06-16-2009, 09:51 AM
I'm not really about breaking the union, but I don't have a problem shopping past them.

broncoblue
06-16-2009, 09:54 AM
it looks like we might be striking soon ,the biggest phone company in all britain. the bosses are forcing crap conditions ,laying people off ,freezing pay and pensions and being really nasty about it too.

BroncoMan4ever
06-16-2009, 09:55 AM
i don't really care. if i need groceries i am going into the store regardless of who is picketing

alkemical
06-16-2009, 09:56 AM
All the "worst" you can say about unions and business are the same.

At this current time, i'd love to have a union. I don't think unions are all bad, and at times it is needed.

The companies that pay a "FAIR" wage, and treat their workers well have no real need for a union. But lots of companies do like **** workers over. Like working someone right up to the cutoff line so they don't get benefits, etc. That's crap and should be illegal IMO.

Kaylore
06-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I need food, so yes I will walk right through.

rugbythug
06-16-2009, 10:04 AM
All the "worst" you can say about unions and business are the same.

At this current time, i'd love to have a union. I don't think unions are all bad, and at times it is needed.

The companies that pay a "FAIR" wage, and treat their workers well have no real need for a union. But lots of companies do like **** workers over. Like working someone right up to the cutoff line so they don't get benefits, etc. That's crap and should be illegal IMO.

I don't really get that about the Cut off part. I have never worked for a company that had a "retirement". Can you work for there for 19 years and 364 days and not get a thing ? Better to have a 401k in that case.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 10:07 AM
I don't really get that about the Cut off part. I have never worked for a company that had a "retirement". Can you work for there for 19 years and 364 days and not get a thing ? Better to have a 401k in that case.

as in, to get full time bene's you have to work X hours in a week. So you will get scheduled right up to the line, and then you are short the hrs to NOT get the benefits.

OBF1
06-16-2009, 11:13 AM
Been there, done that. We had that happen in California in think in 2003. Still shopped at my local market, could care less about them striking. If you do not like your pay/benefits, move on and find another job.

OBF1
06-16-2009, 11:14 AM
I don't really get that about the Cut off part. I have never worked for a company that had a "retirement". Can you work for there for 19 years and 364 days and not get a thing ? Better to have a 401k in that case.

Or a company just files Chapter 13 and bamm, pensions gone. Ask any ex Chrysler employee

TailgateNut
06-16-2009, 11:28 AM
I saw what they were bitching about in the 90s and I could'nt give a **** if they get locked out. I know back in the 90s a friends' wife worked in the produce department making $17 p. hr plus benefits.

If you aren't happy with that, considering the lack of education required to stock fruit and discard bad apples, then go **** off.
**** the grocery workers union.

SJ Bronco
06-16-2009, 11:33 AM
Unions are a good idea gone horribly wrong.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Been there, done that. We had that happen in California in think in 2003. Still shopped at my local market, could care less about them striking. If you do not like your pay/benefits, move on and find another job.

Eh, sometimes it's harder than just that.

TailgateNut
06-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Eh, sometimes it's harder than just that.


It's called LIFE!

bfoflcommish
06-16-2009, 11:35 AM
having worked in unions for over 15 years i am now out and see life is actually better out of it.

the unions cloud you so much from reality that it makes you think you cant live without it, when in reality it's better.

all a union is good for is saving a job of a lesser worker or making themselves more money for less time on thier actual job.

i have way better benefits and pay than any union could ever have gotten and im in same exact job, now dont have to pay dues and dont have email or mailers and visits from stewards wasting my time.

have you noticed some of the companies going down or asking for bailouts have been life long unions?? auto's, telecom, etc...

like i said union 15+ years and glad im out!!!!! so yes, i would happily cross to shop for neccesaties i need

Garcia Bronco
06-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Maybe

TailgateNut
06-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Unions are for people who can't stand on their own two feet.

Let the stoning begin.

Beantown Bronco
06-16-2009, 11:39 AM
considering the lack of education required to stock fruit and discard bad apples, then go **** off.

There's no need to bring Xanders and McDaniels into this.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:40 AM
It's called LIFE!

nah.

What about the labor violations of companies like Wal*Mart?

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:41 AM
Unions are for people who can't stand on their own two feet.

Let the stoning begin.

Not true.

what about people in the IT sector who have had declining wages for the last 10 years - and now are nothing more than white-collar-day labor. no bene's, no PDO and **** wages?

You have big business flexing the market and driving wages down.

TailgateNut
06-16-2009, 11:42 AM
nah.

What about the labor violations of companies like Wal*Mart?

Move on, or file a lawsuit. BUT, stand on your own two feet and reap the rewards based on your merits.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:44 AM
having worked in unions for over 15 years i am now out and see life is actually better out of it.

the unions cloud you so much from reality that it makes you think you cant live without it, when in reality it's better.

all a union is good for is saving a job of a lesser worker or making themselves more money for less time on thier actual job.

i have way better benefits and pay than any union could ever have gotten and im in same exact job, now dont have to pay dues and dont have email or mailers and visits from stewards wasting my time.

have you noticed some of the companies going down or asking for bailouts have been life long unions?? auto's, telecom, etc...

like i said union 15+ years and glad im out!!!!! so yes, i would happily cross to shop for neccesaties i need

yet i've never been in a union and my wages and "quality of living" has degraded since the .com burst.

Look, i'm all for people doing menial jobs NOT making $30/hr - but at some point businesses have to be ethical and pay people a fair wage. If not, they might as well pay us in company script and let us become indentured servants.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:45 AM
Move on, or file a lawsuit. BUT, stand on your own two feet and reap the rewards based on your merits.

Legally, there's no case (partially due to the lobbists that walmart pays for). Ethically it's a bad situation. Uhm, have you tried looking for work right now? Cuz out here, it's pretty ****ty and big business is taking full advantage of it.

Again, i'm asking for FAIR wages - not bloated wages.

I know that you boomers won't and don't understand it until you guys get axed and have to rebuild. But some of us in the gen X/Y generations are getting ****ed pretty bad - as well as the lower spectrum of the middle class.

bfoflcommish
06-16-2009, 11:46 AM
yet i've never been in a union and my wages and "quality of living" has degraded since the .com burst.

Look, i'm all for people doing menial jobs NOT making $30/hr - but at some point businesses have to be ethical and pay people a fair wage. If not, they might as well pay us in company script and let us become indentured servants.


this may be true to a point but the companys that want good workers pay accordingly. does it suck if you arent part of that sure, but at the same time noone is keeping anyone in thier current job or situations but themselves.

MrPeepers
06-16-2009, 11:46 AM
Unions are a good idea gone horribly wrong.

ding ding ding.


Unions were great in the earlier part of the 20th century (Child Labor, Overtime, Shorter work hours, the mention of Retirement). They are like any business though and will cut off their own nose to keep their position of power. Unions are unwilling to compromise to the point it will cost their peoples careers. Walmarts will shove them off the map. Innovate or die.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-16-2009, 11:46 AM
I don't live in CO anymore, but I used to shop past the picketters at King Soopers back in the mid 90's. They're back at it huh? The butchers need relief from their exploitively low $40.00 an hour?

If you were correct in your assessment, I'd agree. You're not.

The union just wants to bargain, and the companies are freezing them out. It's not right.

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:47 AM
this may be true to a point but the companys that want good workers pay accordingly. does it suck if you arent part of that sure, but at the same time noone is keeping anyone in thier current job or situations but themselves.

False. Currently two large corporations made a comment that "if you don't like what we pay you, then well - good luck finding a job. Be happy with what we pay you and like it". Meanwhile they carrot-n-sticked their employees thinking they were going to get promoted to "full time status" and get a nominal $2/hr raise + some PDO.

bfoflcommish
06-16-2009, 11:47 AM
Legally, there's no case (partially due to the lobbists that walmart pays for). Ethically it's a bad situation. Uhm, have you tried looking for work right now? Cuz out here, it's pretty ****ty and big business is taking full advantage of it.

Again, i'm asking for FAIR wages - not bloated wages.

I know that you boomers won't and don't understand it until you guys get axed and have to rebuild. But some of us in the gen X/Y generations are getting ****ed pretty bad - as well as the lower spectrum of the middle class.

im 33 started in union at 16. just got out last year

bfoflcommish
06-16-2009, 11:49 AM
ding ding ding.


Unions were great in the earlier part of the 20th century (Child Labor, Overtime, Shorter work hours, the mention of Retirement). They are like any business though and will cut off their own nose to keep their position of power. Unions are unwilling to compromise to the point it will cost their peoples careers. Walmarts will shove them off the map. Innovate or die.

agree!

alkemical
06-16-2009, 11:49 AM
im 33 started in union at 16. just got out last year

Good for you - i've never been anywhere where there was a union. I've been strictly private sector.

bfoflcommish
06-16-2009, 11:51 AM
False. Currently two large corporations made a comment that "if you don't like what we pay you, then well - good luck finding a job. Be happy with what we pay you and like it". Meanwhile they carrot-n-sticked their employees thinking they were going to get promoted to "full time status" and get a nominal $2/hr raise + some PDO.

well the union i just left a $2 raise would have been golden!! thier barginnning "won" us 20% cut in pay as well as 2 unpaid days off that management would tell us when to take not ourselves!


also look at the rocky mountain news for example! they were given certain terms company agreed too, union said no, and well rest is history...

Florida_Bronco
06-16-2009, 12:01 PM
Move on, or file a lawsuit. BUT, stand on your own two feet and reap the rewards based on your merits.

Unfortunately alot of state laws let employers do whatever they please with few restrictions, so a lawsuit is not an option. That's where the unions come in. Strength in numbers.

Beantown Bronco
06-16-2009, 12:06 PM
well the union i just left a $2 raise would have been golden!! thier barginnning "won" us 20% cut in pay as well as 2 unpaid days off that management would tell us when to take not ourselves!


also look at the rocky mountain news for example! they were given certain terms company agreed too, union said no, and well rest is history...

Boston Globe Union anyone?

The largest union recently turned down a 10% paycut across the board. Management said, ok, then you'll take a 28% cut and like it. Now all the smaller unions that said ok to the 10% all have to go with the 28% cut. Talk about making friends.

chadta
06-16-2009, 12:38 PM
ding ding ding.


Unions were great in the earlier part of the 20th century (Child Labor, Overtime, Shorter work hours, the mention of Retirement). They are like any business though and will cut off their own nose to keep their position of power. Unions are unwilling to compromise to the point it will cost their peoples careers. Walmarts will shove them off the map. Innovate or die.

i kinda agree with most of this, but there are still alot of situations where they are needed, especially in these times, as for all these negotiated pay cuts, i wouldnt take a cut either unless the salary staff was takin an equal one. The key is to be reasonable, and alot of people both union and managment arent.

i visit friends every week that are either on strike or locked out, companys want a 25% rollback in each case, while management continues with there scheduled 3% raise. NFW is that gonna fly, if it was -10% across the board theyd all be back at work tommorrow, but no way are they takin cuts to pay somebody elses raise.

Hercules Rockefeller
06-16-2009, 12:43 PM
In this case (grocery store workers strike), absolutely. It's unskilled labor that any high school kid could do. Don't like doing a job that anyone off the street can be competent at in a short time period, then aspire for a different career field.

Mountain Bronco
06-16-2009, 12:48 PM
having worked in unions for over 15 years i am now out and see life is actually better out of it.

the unions cloud you so much from reality that it makes you think you cant live without it, when in reality it's better.

all a union is good for is saving a job of a lesser worker or making themselves more money for less time on thier actual job.

i have way better benefits and pay than any union could ever have gotten and im in same exact job, now dont have to pay dues and dont have email or mailers and visits from stewards wasting my time.

have you noticed some of the companies going down or asking for bailouts have been life long unions?? auto's, telecom, etc...

like i said union 15+ years and glad im out!!!!! so yes, i would happily cross to shop for neccesaties i need

Bingo, it was necessary before the there were working condition laws, minimum wage, age requirments etc..., not it is pure extorsion and saving lazy ass employees. To Unions credit, they brough about such change, but only burden companies now.

I will walk through a strike with a smile on my face.

chadta
06-16-2009, 01:28 PM
I will walk through a strike with a smile on my face.

then we laugh when you get back to your car that somehow ran over 4 nails :thumbsup:

Northman
06-16-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm not really about breaking the union, but I don't have a problem shopping past them.

Same here.

Rohirrim
06-16-2009, 01:30 PM
This picture
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=5334&dateline=1242542248
evokes a weird mixture of sexuality and defecation.

Spider
06-16-2009, 01:44 PM
Hell no i wont cross a picket line

Spider
06-16-2009, 02:16 PM
Collective bargaining is the only real tool we little people have .........
Unions are the reason you people are not being **** on right now .........
When we allow the man to manipulate politicians ( ****ing Reagan) to take that power away from us , we are ****ed ..........
I didnt click to see who would cross a picket line , but some of you people need to wake up and smell the coffee ........

Taco John
06-16-2009, 02:25 PM
I have no interest in breaking up unions. But I have absolutely zero problems walking past a picket line. I'm not beholden to their union, nor should I be.

Taco John
06-16-2009, 02:28 PM
Also, for the record, a grocery store union seems like the most pointless organization in the world. Maybe I don't appreciate the specialized skills that are being "protected" here, but it seems to me that anyone on the street can check groceries with a minimal level of training. If I was a grocery store owner, I'd fire union members knowing that I could hire off the street by end of business today.

This is why I've always scoffed at attempts to unionize Walmart workers. It's not in the worker's best interests to unionize because if they did, they wouldn't have jobs. They'd get fired, and their jobs would be filled by the time they turned in their smock.

rugbythug
06-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Collective bargaining is the only real tool we little people have .........
Unions are the reason you people are not being **** on right now .........
When we allow the man to manipulate politicians ( ****ing Reagan) to take that power away from us , we are ****ed ..........
I didnt click to see who would cross a picket line , but some of you people need to wake up and smell the coffee ........

CHe Spider? You live in Wyoming. A right to work state. Yet you still get your UPS packages. And People are not being throat punched willy nilly by the man. Beware the Black Helicopters.

chadta
06-16-2009, 02:39 PM
Also, for the record, a grocery store union seems like the most pointless organization in the world. Maybe I don't appreciate the specialized skills that are being "protected" here, but it seems to me that anyone on the street can check groceries with a minimal level of training. If I was a grocery store owner, I'd fire union members knowing that I could hire off the street by end of business today.

This is why I've always scoffed at attempts to unionize Walmart workers. It's not in the worker's best interests to unionize because if they did, they wouldn't have jobs. They'd get fired, and their jobs would be filled by the time they turned in their smock.

its not about special skills, its about having things in black an white. Yes unions do some bad, they protect alot of lazy people, But the collective agreements they get set out clear rules for everybody to follow, like hours, holidays, overtime, promotion, no more special treatment for the bag lickers, just cuz you cut the bosses grass on the weekend dosent mean you get a free ride monday morning. everybody is equal under the eyes of a good collective agreement, and everybody gets treated as such.

rugbythug
06-16-2009, 02:41 PM
its not about special skills, its about having things in black an white. Yes unions do some bad, they protect alot of lazy people, But the collective agreements they get set out clear rules for everybody to follow, like hours, holidays, overtime, promotion, no more special treatment for the bag lickers, just cuz you cut the bosses grass on the weekend dosent mean you get a free ride monday morning. everybody is equal under the eyes of a good collective agreement, and everybody gets treated as such.

No now you lick the Union Guys ballz. I can really see a difference. Thanks for that.

Spider
06-16-2009, 02:46 PM
CHe Spider? You live in Wyoming. A right to work state. Yet you still get your UPS packages. And People are not being throat punched willy nilly by the man. Beware the Black Helicopters.

what in the **** do you know about Wyoming ? Seriously ........ the oil boom pulled this state out of trouble , now it is heading back to lean times ......... Tell you what , explain to me why they built the rocky mountain gas pipeline and Wyoming is still getting below market price for Nat Gas ? Wages up here have dropped big time , I got a local gig today , hauling equipment for Global geology , 15.00 Bucks an hour ......... Yeah you read that right 15.00 an hour , and no Bennies so tell me what in the **** do you know about wages up here
.........Black Helicopters ? How about a decent ****ing paycheck ?
I may have to move , uproot my kids , take them from Friends and family , and you talk about Black Helicopters ?
Tell you what , I will support your ass for 1 month come up here and get a job , then tell me all about the right to work crap

chadta
06-16-2009, 02:48 PM
No now you lick the Union Guys ballz. I can really see a difference. Thanks for that.

why would you do that ?

you go in, and do your J O B remember the reason why you were hired in the first place.

no ass kissing is gonna help, its all set out in the collective agreement, the best part is, majority rules, so everybody has a say, if more people want to work saturdays for free then guess what, but at least everybody has a choice and a vote.

democracy at its finest, or maybe you would like to go try things out in iran so that you stop taking your rights for granted.

Spider
06-16-2009, 02:48 PM
Also, for the record, a grocery store union seems like the most pointless organization in the world. Maybe I don't appreciate the specialized skills that are being "protected" here, but it seems to me that anyone on the street can check groceries with a minimal level of training. If I was a grocery store owner, I'd fire union members knowing that I could hire off the street by end of business today.

This is why I've always scoffed at attempts to unionize Walmart workers. It's not in the worker's best interests to unionize because if they did, they wouldn't have jobs. They'd get fired, and their jobs would be filled by the time they turned in their smock.As if you wouldnt get ripped off enough by customers ......... yeah good thinking , employee theft would put the common shop lifet out of business

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 02:50 PM
Cross the line? Hell - I signed up for scab duty!

I have a day gig, but if they need help, evenings and weekends, I'm there with bells on.

Spider
06-16-2009, 02:52 PM
Cross the line? Hell - I signed up for scab duty!

I have a day gig, but if they need help, evenings and weekends, I'm there with bells on.

Scab is right .......... perfect description

broncocalijohn
06-16-2009, 03:00 PM
Been there, done that. We had that happen in California in think in 2003. Still shopped at my local market, could care less about them striking. If you do not like your pay/benefits, move on and find another job.

Yes, I did the same at Vons. Everyone went across the street to Stater Bros who already settled their union contract. I had a real easy time grabbing my goods and waiting two minutes to pay. After the strike, not many customers came back as they seemed to like Stater Bros better. Vons closed a year later (HA HA) and those workers lost their jobs or had to go to a different store 5 to 15 miles away. When workers are asking for money that is up to par as a career, they have problems. When was there ever anyone who saw a checkout girl scan the items across the red line and say, "That is what I want to do as a career." $21 an hour plus benefits for a job like that is rediculous. The only job in the store I would more than support are actual real butchers that do the work in the store.

broncocalijohn
06-16-2009, 03:03 PM
False. Currently two large corporations made a comment that "if you don't like what we pay you, then well - good luck finding a job. Be happy with what we pay you and like it". Meanwhile they carrot-n-sticked their employees thinking they were going to get promoted to "full time status" and get a nominal $2/hr raise + some PDO.

Can we apply this to current situations with football players and front office?

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:08 PM
Just disgraceful..........

Taco John
06-16-2009, 03:09 PM
I would never join a union. I'm more valuable to anyone who employs me than any union could secure for me. I'd just as soon freelance and negotiate and secure for myself what I'm worth.

chadta
06-16-2009, 03:12 PM
Can we apply this to current situations with football players and front office?

if that player is under contract then no we cant, that player should fulfill there contractual obligations, if they dont then you have every right to can them.

chadta
06-16-2009, 03:13 PM
I would never join a union. I'm more valuable to anyone who employs me than any union could secure for me. I'd just as soon freelance and negotiate and secure for myself what I'm worth.

you forgot to mention modest

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:16 PM
I would never join a union. I'm more valuable to anyone who employs me than any union could secure for me. I'd just as soon freelance and negotiate and secure for myself what I'm worth.

So how would you stand out with 250K other people applying for the same gig ?

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:18 PM
They should turn the clocks back , and beat the living snot out of these scabs .....

Taco John
06-16-2009, 03:19 PM
you forgot to mention modest

Heh. I try to be modest, but it's hard to be both modest and confident at the same time. And when it comes to selling yourself in the world of business, cofidence is going to get more job offers (and keep more jobs) than modesty is. This is a lesson I've learned the hard way.

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:24 PM
Unions are for people who can't stand on their own two feet.

Let the stoning begin.

No, no, no.. RELIGION is for people who can't stand on their own two feet.

Common mistake.

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:24 PM
They should turn the clocks back , and beat the living snot out of these scabs .....

I'll be there, twinkletoes. 64th and Sheridan.

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:26 PM
I'll be there, twinkletoes. 64th and Sheridan.

LOL you calling me out ?

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:26 PM
I would never join a union. I'm more valuable to anyone who employs me than any union could secure for me. I'd just as soon freelance and negotiate and secure for myself what I'm worth.

agree.

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:26 PM
LOL you calling me out ?

nope. No more than I would ever run from you.

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:29 PM
nope. No more than I would ever run from you.
I didnt ask you to run ............I prefer people that dont run .........Lot less work involved

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:30 PM
But your history is a little off - actually it was the scabs beating the crap out of the union pukes, usually.

Back in the good ol' days..

Taco John
06-16-2009, 03:30 PM
They should turn the clocks back , and beat the living snot out of these scabs .....


This comment illustrates one of the biggest problems that I have with unions.

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:31 PM
This comment illustrates one of the biggest problems that I have with unions.

well it was effective , look at it as a necessary evil ........... Some times a person needs a good ass kicking to get back on track

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:32 PM
But your history is a little off - actually it was the scabs beating the crap out of the union pukes, usually.

Back in the good ol' days..

you are an Idiot if you believe that .......

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:33 PM
get the teamsters involved .......... Problem solved ,Scab assed kicked = all is well

Taco John
06-16-2009, 03:34 PM
No, no, no.. RELIGION is for people who can't stand on their own two feet.

Common mistake.



Religion and Unions are actually very similar in their structure. A group of people banded together by a common belief, who are willing to pay a portion of their salary each month to further the cause, and hope that paying this money and attending all these meetings will get me in good with the Big Man upstairs. :wiggle:

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:44 PM
Religion and Unions are actually very similar in their structure. A group of people banded together by a common belief, who are willing to pay a portion of their salary each month to further the cause, and hope that paying this money and attending all these meetings will get me in good with the Big Man upstairs. :wiggle:

..which is why I said it's a common mistake.

Didn't expect anyone to get it.

+1 Taco :notworthy

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:45 PM
A great man .....http://www.biography.com/biography/images/episode_images/Jimmy_Hoffa_320x240.jpg

BroncsRule
06-16-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm talking the early union days - when the term "scab" was coined.

the original scabs were street thugs, hired by management to drop in on the picket lines and persuade the picketers that they really had urgent business elsewhere.

The term was later broadened to include the poor saps crossing the lines to work because their kids were hungry..

manchambo
06-16-2009, 03:52 PM
I worked as a scab while I was in college during one of those mid-90s strikes. Worked in the produce department.

The best, easiest job I ever had. And it paid pretty darn well considering the utter lack of skill and effort involved in the job. Actually working the job erased any sympathy I had for the strikers.

So, yes, I will cross the line.

Taco John
06-16-2009, 03:52 PM
well it was effective , look at it as a necessary evil ........... Some times a person needs a good ass kicking to get back on track


How is kicking my ass going to change my mind about unions? I don't have any problems with unions existing. But unions seem to have a serious problem with me existing if I disagree with their point of view.

I think that someone should have the liberty to work without needing to join a union. This is truly the only perspective that I have on this. Everything I have to say on the subject swirls around this sentance:

Everyone should have the liberty to work without needing to join a union.

I think it falls to the union to demonstrate their case to the consumers through education of their plight, rather than them just expecting that Americans will see it their way just for the fact that they're a union. That's true democracy.

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm talking the early union days - when the term "scab" was coined.

the original scabs were street thugs, hired by management to drop in on the picket lines and persuade the picketers that they really had urgent business elsewhere.

The term was later broadened to include the poor saps crossing the lines to work because their kids were hungry..

you are full of it , the Unions won in Kentucky , Philly , all up and down the eastern seaboard , Pier 70,West Virginia ........ not only did the Unions have to fight SCABS , they also had to fight law enforcement , Back in the day it was illegal to form an Union ............

Spider
06-16-2009, 03:53 PM
How is kicking my ass going to change my mind about unions? I don't have any problems with unions existing. But unions seem to have a serious problem with me existing if I disagree with their point of view.

I think that someone should have the liberty to work without needing to join a union. This is truly the only perspective that I have on this. Everything I have to say on the subject swirls around this sentance:

Everyone should have the liberty to work without needing to join a union.

I think it falls to the union to demonstrate their case to the consumers through education of their plight, rather than them just expecting that Americans will see it their way just for the fact that they're a union. That's true democracy.

well dont give a damn about changing your mind about Unions , just making you think twice before crossing a picket line ............

chadta
06-16-2009, 05:49 PM
Everyone should have the liberty to work without needing to join a union.

everybody does, if its a union shop and you dont want to join the union, then dont work there, go take your high morals and work somewhere else.

Generally the 2 main reasons for unions in the first place are #1 bad bosses, #2 lazy workers, now after getting rid or control of #1 the workers often have a habit of turning into #2, i never said it was a perfect system, but much like anything else it is ALL MANAGEMENTS FAULT, if treated fairly why would anyone in there right mind vote to give away some of there pay cheque ? i know i wouldnt, but im also not going to bend over and take it without fighting back either.

http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/06/06/9699411.html

“Kellogg negotiators have suggested that during these tough economic times, we should be happy to have a job, comparing our situation to the ailing auto sector,” reads the statement from Local 154-G of the Bakery, Confectionary, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers (BCTGM) union.

The union’s view, though, is that Kellogg “has consistently earned profits of more than $1 billion annually” and this year looks no different.

“We are not the auto sector. The corporation is not in danger of going bankrupt.”

yup cereal sales are down, we better demand wage cuts

NYBronco
06-16-2009, 06:07 PM
In today's economy I will honor their picket line and find another store to hand my money over to. The new store will more than likely have lower food costs as they won't be responsible to pay the high union wage.

broncosteven
06-16-2009, 06:13 PM
I need food, so yes I will walk right through.

I thought Geneticly Superior Humans didn't need to eat that often?

Anyway I figure when you do get hungry you will send Kuper to get your eats.

LOL

bronco_boi_5280
06-16-2009, 06:23 PM
Taco is 100% right in this thread.

Spider
06-16-2009, 07:02 PM
everybody does, if its a union shop and you dont want to join the union, then dont work there, go take your high morals and work somewhere else.

Generally the 2 main reasons for unions in the first place are #1 bad bosses, #2 lazy workers, now after getting rid or control of #1 the workers often have a habit of turning into #2, i never said it was a perfect system, but much like anything else it is ALL MANAGEMENTS FAULT, if treated fairly why would anyone in there right mind vote to give away some of there pay cheque ? i know i wouldnt, but im also not going to bend over and take it without fighting back either.

http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/06/06/9699411.html

“Kellogg negotiators have suggested that during these tough economic times, we should be happy to have a job, comparing our situation to the ailing auto sector,” reads the statement from Local 154-G of the Bakery, Confectionary, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers (BCTGM) union.

The union’s view, though, is that Kellogg “has consistently earned profits of more than $1 billion annually” and this year looks no different.

“We are not the auto sector. The corporation is not in danger of going bankrupt.”

yup cereal sales are down, we better demand wage cuts

Yeah i dont know where TJ got the Idea he has to join a union ...........But dont begrudge or **** over those of us that do ...... A union is a good way to earn a living without being some ones butt boy or a yes man

Broncojef
06-16-2009, 07:45 PM
Most of the union workers in this case may quit the union and go back to work themselves. Absolutely no one in their right mind wants to picket right now. Tons of people will be backfilling and taking over the jobs should they strike. In this case its union leaders wanting more and the members thinking they are crazy. This picket line should it be forced will be one of the weakest people have ever seen. Terrible time to strike and workers know it. Unions have/had their place but most make life worse and are corrupt these days. Look at the Union heavy Chicago and their politics if you want proof.

Taco John
06-16-2009, 09:57 PM
Yeah i dont know where TJ got the Idea he has to join a union ...........But dont begrudge or **** over those of us that do ...... A union is a good way to earn a living without being some ones butt boy or a yes man

I'm not worried about myself. There are no unions for marketing execs. I'm talking about the blue collar individualist who would rather not join a union, but is constantly pressured and ostracized for his choice. Everyone should have the liberty to work and not to join a union (if they choose).

Spider
06-16-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm not worried about myself. There are no unions for marketing execs. I'm talking about the blue collar individualist who would rather not join a union, but is constantly pressured and ostracized for his choice. Everyone should have the liberty to work and not to join a union (if they choose).

Thats simply not true , alot of union shops start guys out non union , you have ot be there a while before you get in ............part time help work your way up to full time , if you choose

chadta
06-17-2009, 04:35 AM
..part time help work your way up to full time , if you choose

or stay part time forever, and have no choice if you dont have a collective agreement that says you have a right to become full time after so many months of doing the same job, for the same hours as the full time guys for less wages and no bennys.

cutthemdown
06-17-2009, 06:21 AM
it looks like we might be striking soon ,the biggest phone company in all britain. the bosses are forcing crap conditions ,laying people off ,freezing pay and pensions and being really nasty about it too.

Whats going on over the pond? I just read British Airways asking employees to work a month for free!!!!! LOL

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 06:47 AM
Legally, there's no case (partially due to the lobbists that walmart pays for). Ethically it's a bad situation. Uhm, have you tried looking for work right now? Cuz out here, it's pretty ****ty and big business is taking full advantage of it.

Again, i'm asking for FAIR wages - not bloated wages.

I know that you boomers won't and don't understand it until you guys get axed and have to rebuild. But some of us in the gen X/Y generations are getting ****ed pretty bad - as well as the lower spectrum of the middle class.

If there isn't a "LEGAL ISSUE" then they have no quarrels, correct?

RE: we don't understand: I call BS. One of my sons has been unemployed for over 7 months, and I do know how difficult it is to find suitable employment.

FYI: there were several times in my life when I did work for pay which I didn't consider fair for the type of work I was doing at the time. So, cry me a river.

Unions suck. Union workers (the majority) are in it for the ride.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 06:50 AM
then we laugh when you get back to your car that somehow ran over 4 nails :thumbsup:

..and I'll laugh when I beat you across the noggin with my 2-1/4" combo wrench.:wiggle:

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 06:53 AM
its not about special skills, its about having things in black an white. Yes unions do some bad, they protect alot of lazy people, But the collective agreements they get set out clear rules for everybody to follow, like hours, holidays, overtime, promotion, no more special treatment for the bag lickers, just cuz you cut the bosses grass on the weekend dosent mean you get a free ride monday morning. everybody is equal under the eyes of a good collective agreement, and everybody gets treated as such.

NEWSFLASH: Everyone isn't equal, although the unions want the employers to treat everyone as if their wasn't a difference in qualification, dedication and experience.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 07:01 AM
what in the **** do you know about Wyoming ? Seriously ........ the oil boom pulled this state out of trouble , now it is heading back to lean times ......... Tell you what , explain to me why they built the rocky mountain gas pipeline and Wyoming is still getting below market price for Nat Gas ? Wages up here have dropped big time , I got a local gig today , hauling equipment for Global geology , 15.00 Bucks an hour ......... Yeah you read that right 15.00 an hour , and no Bennies so tell me what in the **** do you know about wages up here
.........Black Helicopters ? How about a decent ****ing paycheck ?
I may have to move , uproot my kids , take them from Friends and family , and you talk about Black Helicopters ?
Tell you what , I will support your ass for 1 month come up here and get a job , then tell me all about the right to work crap

Hey Spider- I Grew up in Wyo. I lived there till I was 26. My company moved from Laramie to CO in 2001 because the weather sucks so much. All My Family lives there. I graduated from UW. I Take trips to see my family several times a year. SO I know Wyo. Wages are Lower but so is the cost of living.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 07:16 AM
Thats simply not true , alot of union shops start guys out non union , you have ot be there a while before you get in ............part time help work your way up to full time , if you choose

Spider-You live in a Right to work state. Many Places are not like that.

chadta
06-17-2009, 07:25 AM
..and I'll laugh when I beat you across the noggin with my 2-1/4" combo wrench.:wiggle:

you always go around hitting people for no reason with a wrench. i personally would never flatten your tires but these things have a way of happening. Besides you rush a picket line with a wrench your not going to get very far.



NEWSFLASH: Everyone isn't equal, although the unions want the employers to treat everyone as if their wasn't a difference in qualification, dedication and experience.

you union bashers just finished saying that these are menial jobs that anybody could do, now your saying you have special skills, im sorry but you cant have it both ways, what special skills are involved in stocking the shelves ? i dont care if your a rocket scientist, the job you are hired to do is stock the shelves, and as such all our shelf stockers will be treated EQUAL

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:27 AM
Hey Spider- I Grew up in Wyo. I lived there till I was 26. My company moved from Laramie to CO in 2001 because the weather sucks so much. All My Family lives there. I graduated from UW. I Take trips to see my family several times a year. SO I know Wyo. Wages are Lower but so is the cost of living.

well the cost of living between Denver and Casper is around 8 grand a year , we are cheaper on food , but pay more in Utilities ,I have a Brother that lives off of 136 Near I 25 , and cousins all over thorton, Northglen etc .....
in some areas the rent is about the same , Casper is more expensive then Cheyenne and Laramie ( well the cost of food is cheaper in Laramie )
but Laramie and Casper are close in cost of living .......

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:31 AM
Spider-You live in a Right to work state. Many Places are not like that.

every Union shop I have dealt with, are like that no matter where you are , I havent lived in Wyoming all of my Life , Before I was Married I moved around alot .........I remember when coors was union ..........Circle C beef in Denver , Cudahy bar S foods , Vons, Grand Union ,Bunch of pipe fitters outfits .....

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:34 AM
NEWSFLASH: Everyone isn't equal, although the unions want the employers to treat everyone as if their wasn't a difference in qualification, dedication and experience.

Not always ,there are different levels in Union shops , for example a guy on the kill floor makes more then the feather cutter on ribs etc .........The Hide guys make a bunch more cause of the work they have to do with hides , nasty job , no one really wants .........

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 07:36 AM
you union bashers just finished saying that these are menial jobs that anybody could do, now your saying you have special skills, im sorry but you cant have it both ways, what special skills are involved in stocking the shelves ? i dont care if your a rocket scientist, the job you are hired to do is stock the shelves, and as such all our shelf stockers will be treated EQUAL

The grocery union has taken a HS Kid Job and strong armed it into a Career.

I stocked shelves while in HS. It is a $7 n hour job.

The unions need to bring some sort of Value added to the establishment. I would pay more if the places were a. Cleaner B. Faster or C.more friendly. But that is not the case. Wal-Mart is just as clean if not cleaner and cheaper to boot. Both are equally slow and unfriendly.

The real problem for unions IMO is it is the same people at both jobs. You just pay them more at the union job.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 07:37 AM
well the cost of living between Denver and Casper is around 8 grand a year , we are cheaper on food , but pay more in Utilities ,I have a Brother that lives off of 136 Near I 25 , and cousins all over thorton, Northglen etc .....
in some areas the rent is about the same , Casper is more expensive then Cheyenne and Laramie ( well the cost of food is cheaper in Laramie )
but Laramie and Casper are close in cost of living .......

You have no state Tax. And your Real Estate Tax is way lower.

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:38 AM
Just like the teamsters , freight haulers dont make what Tankers with Haz mat Haulers make ...... Not everyone or every job is equal in a union ..........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 07:38 AM
you always go around hitting people for no reason with a wrench. i personally would never flatten your tires but these things have a way of happening. Besides you rush a picket line with a wrench your not going to get very far.





you union bashers just finished saying that these are menial jobs that anybody could do, now your saying you have special skills, im sorry but you cant have it both ways, what special skills are involved in stocking the shelves ? i dont care if your a rocket scientist, the job you are hired to do is stock the shelves, and as such all our shelf stockers will be treated EQUAL



1. No I don't ALWAYS go around hitting people, but if I catch someone ****ing with my truck, he will regret picking my vehicle.

2. No dumbass, I said that everyone wants to BE EQUAL (Equal pay, benefit), when in fact everone is different. Learn to read, and comprehend.

v2micca
06-17-2009, 07:38 AM
I just moved to Chicago, a place completely infested with Unions. Having lived in right to work states most of my life, it was definately an adjustment. I have no interest in breaking any union. But I would cross a picket line in a heart-beat and sue the first thug who layed a hand on me into oblivion.

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:40 AM
You have no state Tax. And your Real Estate Tax is way lower.

real estate tax is catching up , and we well make up for no state tax in Utility cost .........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 07:42 AM
Not always ,there are different levels in Union shops , for example a guy on the kill floor makes more then the feather cutter on ribs etc .........The Hide guys make a bunch more cause of the work they have to do with hides , nasty job , no one really wants .........

I'm not talking about the different levels. I'm talking about one level expecting the same pay and benefit although there are great difference in the performance of people within that "grade".

The more dedicated get screwed while the lazy dumbasses ride the tail of the union, and the employer gets ****ed.

UNIONS SUCK, and are OUTDATED! (unless you're lazy and unqualified)

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm not talking about the different levels. I'm talking about one level expecting the same pay and benefit although there are great difference in the performance of people within that "grade".

The more dedicated get screwed while the lazy dumbasses ride the tail of the union, and the employer gets ****ed.

UNIONS SUCK, and are OUTDATED! (unless you're lazy and unqualified)
bull when layoffs come , the lazy ones get shown the door more often , if the lazy ones get the free ride , then it is the company mans fault , I just cant believe how many of you people think just cause a guy is union he doesnt have ot work , or doesnt work as hard as a non union guy ...Where in the **** do you people get this **** ?

Hotrod
06-17-2009, 07:50 AM
I'm thinking about voting "Hell **** ya break the unions" for no other reason then to piss off my buddy Spider :)

Spider
06-17-2009, 07:56 AM
I'm thinking about voting "Hell **** ya break the unions" for no other reason then to piss off my buddy Spider :)

you sir are an evil man ;D

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 07:59 AM
bull when layoffs come , the lazy ones get shown the door more often , if the lazy ones get the free ride , then it is the company mans fault , I just cant believe how many of you people think just cause a guy is union he doesnt have ot work , or doesnt work as hard as a non union guy ...Where in the **** do you people get this **** ?

I've run a "split shop" before, and I'll take a non-union guy over a union guy any day. ****ing primma donna's. "I can't do this", or "my job description doesn't allow me to do this", or "can you sent my helper, I'm not supposed to carry this". **** that. "CARRY YOUR ASS".

Rohirrim
06-17-2009, 08:03 AM
I'm guessing in a few years we'll all be scanning and bagging our own groceries anyway, so it's a moot point. When I was a kid, there would be three or four high school kids who would run out to your car when you pulled into the gas station. They would fill your tank, check your oil and tire pressure, and wash the windows.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:05 AM
I've run a "split shop" before, and I'll take a non-union guy over a union guy any day. ****ing primma donna's. "I can't do this", or "my job description doesn't allow me to do this", or "can you sent my helper, I'm not supposed to carry this". **** that. "CARRY YOUR ASS".

I see so only union guys are lazy ........I am not union right now , but if Global survey tells me to operate Machinery , or work on my truck , they will get a kiss my ass out of me , that isnt what I was hired to do , I think you just want someone that will do whatever you say when you say it .......... if you want someone to be a gopher , dont hire a pipe fitter .......... was talking to a Mexican Trucker down in bar in Warez not long ago , he is forced to drive a truck with bad breaks , bald tires , and he has to change his own tires when they blow out , and he makes 12 cents a mile ........ that is the type of worker you need

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:06 AM
The results of "our" polls are quite clear.

Hotrod
06-17-2009, 08:07 AM
I'm guessing in a few years we'll all be scanning and bagging our own groceries anyway, so it's a moot point. When I was a kid, there would be three or four high school kids who would run out to your car when you pulled into the gas station. They would fill your tank, check your oil and tire pressure, and wash the windows.

Um we already are scanning and bagging our own ****.

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 08:07 AM
bull when layoffs come , the lazy ones get shown the door more often , if the lazy ones get the free ride , then it is the company mans fault , I just cant believe how many of you people think just cause a guy is union he doesnt have ot work , or doesnt work as hard as a non union guy ...Where in the **** do you people get this **** ?

every union ive been in come layoffs has gone on seniority so those with less senority were let go even though did more work than most the senior workers!! as was my case...i was a lead because i worked harder, longer and knew more in 2 years than some who were there 20+ years! come layoff time they let me the lead go because i was only there 4 years while others who didnt do **** stayed because they started before I was even born!

2nd union job same thing if i didnt leave and find a better (non union better pay better benes) job i would have been let go 3 monthst ago, instead here I am with a much better situation then my ex union "brothers".

Oh and by the way, the union sure took my dues every paycheck for 16 years but when it came time to fight for me and my situation it was oh no sorry we have to go off senority even though we all know you are a better worker....oh and do you think it was a coincidence a couple of those union officers were higher then me on senority but never stepped foot into work for 5 years because they were always needed at the union office everyday????

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:07 AM
I see so only union guys are lazy ........I am not union right now , but if Global survey tells me to operate Machinery , or work on my truck , they will get a kiss my ass out of me , that isnt what I was hired to do , I think you just want someone that will do whatever you say when you say it .......... if you want someone to be a gopher , dont hire a pipe fitter .......... was talking to a Mexican Trucker down in bar in Warez not long ago , he is forced to drive a truck with bad breaks , bald tires , and he has to change his own tires when they blow out , and he makes 12 cents a mile ........ that is the type of worker you need


Horse****. I don't want a whiney ass union worker. Stand on you own feet, or get a damn handicap sticker for your forehead.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 08:08 AM
I see so only union guys are lazy ........I am not union right now , but if Global survey tells me to operate Machinery , or work on my truck , they will get a kiss my ass out of me , that isnt what I was hired to do , I think you just want someone that will do whatever you say when you say it .......... if you want someone to be a gopher , dont hire a pipe fitter .......... was talking to a Mexican Trucker down in bar in Warez not long ago , he is forced to drive a truck with bad breaks , bald tires , and he has to change his own tires when they blow out , and he makes 12 cents a mile ........ that is the type of worker you need

How many times can you do this before you run out of places to work?

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:08 AM
People are Idiots ........ or they like being pushed around ...

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:09 AM
Horse****. I don't want a whiney ass union worker. Stand on you own feet, or get a damn handicap sticker for your forehead.

Bull**** ......... stand on your own 2 feet = I want a work that will say how high when I say jump

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 08:10 AM
Um we already are scanning and bagging our own ****.

Stupid Computers don't need Bene's

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:10 AM
How many times can you do this before you run out of places to work?

with my skills ? I do oversize and Heavy haul ........ How many trucking companies are there ?

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:10 AM
Spider, as a side note. The union workers on my job were the only ones' who had a problem with me managing the project. I guess they were pissed that I was half their age and had accomplished twice a much.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 08:12 AM
I hire Union Workers all the time. Just not as Union Workers. They work with me when the union jobs aren't there. My Painter, and Electrician are both union guys when they can get it.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 08:13 AM
with my skills ? I do oversize and Heavy haul ........ How many trucking companies are there ?

So why are you taking a $15 an hour job.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:13 AM
Bull**** ......... stand on your own 2 feet = I want a work that will say how high when I say jump

You have no clue about the scenarios I am talking about. Go depend on your "brothers" for job security and advancement if you wish. I'll advance based on my own qualifications.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:13 AM
every union ive been in come layoffs has gone on seniority so those with less senority were let go even though did more work than most the senior workers!! as was my case...i was a lead because i worked harder, longer and knew more in 2 years than some who were there 20+ years! come layoff time they let me the lead go because i was only there 4 years while others who didnt do **** stayed because they started before I was even born!

2nd union job same thing if i didnt leave and find a better (non union better pay better benes) job i would have been let go 3 monthst ago, instead here I am with a much better situation then my ex union "brothers".

Oh and by the way, the union sure took my dues every paycheck for 16 years but when it came time to fight for me and my situation it was oh no sorry we have to go off senority even though we all know you are a better worker....oh and do you think it was a coincidence a couple of those union officers were higher then me on senority but never stepped foot into work for 5 years because they were always needed at the union everyday????
So are you telling me that Non Union workers dont get by being lazy ?if you are ,you are full of **** , if a lazy guy gets seniority , thats the company mans fault .......you was expendable , they blew smoke up your ass

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 08:16 AM
So are you telling me that Non Union workers dont get by being lazy ?if you are ,you are full of **** , if a lazy guy gets seniority , thats the company mans fault .......you was expendable , they blew smoke up your ass

That is Union Utopia. Doesn't happen in the real world.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:17 AM
So why are you taking a $15 an hour job.

After my Dad passed , I am spending more time at home with my kids and wife , I almost lost my marriage , and 15.00 per hour is top dollar here .......
I am taking a huge hit in wages , as I said in the earlier post , I may have ot move ........

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:18 AM
That is Union Utopia. Doesn't happen in the real world.

it happens more then these Idiotic talking point stories you guys are coming up with ...........

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 08:19 AM
So are you telling me that Non Union workers dont get by being lazy ?if you are ,you are full of **** , if a lazy guy gets seniority , thats the company mans fault .......


did i say that (your first part of statement) NO!


What im saying in my 16+ years of union settings, the unions worked the contracts to included senority based layoffs, and once set the more senor workers sure did alot less then us lower yeared yet more dedicated workers knowing they were not in line to be let go and can cruise on by.....i'm not saying all are like that but i was apart of 3 different unions in 16 years and all 3 worked the same and i noticed no difference in the way all 3 were ran even though all were in different facets of work. kind of amazing how similiar they all were and how they got what they wanted but didnt weant to help the lower guys when it didnt help the uppers as well!!!!!!


good for you for not ever running into this situation but like i said i have more times than i care to have ever gone through it and in my situations the guy who wants to work and better himself always got screwed!!!!!

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:21 AM
did i say that (your first part of statement) NO!


What im saying in my 16+ years of union settings, the unions worked the contracts to included senority based layoffs, and once set the more senor workers sure did alot less then us lower yeared yet more dedicated workers knowing they were not in line to be let go and can cruise on by.....i'm not saying all are like that but i was apart of 3 different unions in 16 years and all 3 worked the same and i noticed no difference in the way all 3 were ran even though all were in different facets of work. kind of amazing how similiar they all were and how they got what they wanted but didnt weant to help the lower guys when it didnt help the uppers as well!!!!!!


good for you for not ever running into this situation but like i said i have more times than i care to have ever gone through it and in my situations the guy who wants to work and better himself always got screwed!!!!!

so in other words if a guy has been at a company for 5+ years , and is union , he got lucky cause he is lazy .......got it

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 08:26 AM
so in other words if a guy has been at a company for 5+ years , and is union , he got lucky cause he is lazy .......got it

like i said glad you never experienced it, but i have 3 times now! but just cuzz you never expereinced with unions you have been in doesnt mean there aren't unions like that out there!

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 08:27 AM
so in other words if a guy has been at a company for 5+ years , and is union , he got lucky cause he is lazy .......got it

and do you think it was a coincidence i worked hard and learned more and moved up faster in 2 years than those who were there 20+??? or am i that too hard of a worker or fast lerner or are the 20+ years lazier??? as much as i would like to think i am more dedicated and smarter etc....it's truly not always the case

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 08:31 AM
bull when layoffs come , the lazy ones get shown the door more often , if the lazy ones get the free ride , then it is the company mans fault , I just cant believe how many of you people think just cause a guy is union he doesnt have ot work , or doesnt work as hard as a non union guy ...Where in the **** do you people get this **** ?

Robert Kraft.

He made it well-known that he would accept no public funds for Gillette Stadium because he didn't want to deal with the unions. What happened? It was literally the only new NFL stadium to come in on time and under budget.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:31 AM
so in other words if a guy has been at a company for 5+ years , and is union , he got lucky cause he is lazy .......got it

You need to be throat punched. You just have one view, and that's it.
Unions are outdated and in todays economy they need to put up or get out. Everyone in the private sector is making concessions, but these idiots seem to think they are above the current economic situation.

Get out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. Everyone is replaceable, including a union worker.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:34 AM
Robert Kraft.

He made it well-known that he would accept no public funds for Gillette Stadium because he didn't want to deal with the unions. What happened? It was literally the only new NFL stadium to come in on time and under budget.


I could go union if I wanted to, but why would I want to?

I've had union reps know on my door wanting to peddle their prima donna workers. But I knidly showed them the door.

I can hire people based on experience and dedication and pay them based on those factors rather than some asshole telling me I have to pay everyone the same amount.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:35 AM
like i said glad you never experienced it, but i have 3 times now! but just cuzz you never expereinced with unions you have been in doesnt mean there aren't unions like that out there!

but there are bad companies out there also , Trucking is the best example , you can take 7,000 rigs on the road right now , do a D.O.T. inspection level 1 and at least 20% of these rigs will be put out of service , these companies expect drivers do drive these trucks , granted they are safer then Mexican trucks , but they still have saftey issues , Teamsters trucks , you pull in 7,000 , and do an inspection ,0% will be put out of service ,It is like this , Lets say Global puts me in a rig that is unsafe , I refuse to drive it , they cant fire me for it , but they can starve me out , force me to quit and find different work , and this scenario happens alot more then union scenarios , alot of these people that voted are clueless as hell .........They dont think , they just take the headlines or old urban tales and run with it ........

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:36 AM
You need to be throat punched. You just have one view, and that's it.
Unions are outdated and in todays economy they need to put up or get out. Everyone in the private sector is making concessions, but these idiots seem to think they are above the current economic situation.

Get out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. Everyone is replaceable, including a union worker.

my view is the correct view , dont blame me because you are wrong

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:38 AM
and do you think it was a coincidence i worked hard and learned more and moved up faster in 2 years than those who were there 20+??? or am i that too hard of a worker or fast lerner or are the 20+ years lazier??? as much as i would like to think i am more dedicated and smarter etc....it's truly not always the case\\
I will get back to you as soon as I figure out what your are asking here

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:39 AM
Robert Kraft.

He made it well-known that he would accept no public funds for Gillette Stadium because he didn't want to deal with the unions. What happened? It was literally the only new NFL stadium to come in on time and under budget.

I guess hooray for him ? ...... But a union could have done the same thing

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:41 AM
Robert Kraft.

He made it well-known that he would accept no public funds for Gillette Stadium because he didn't want to deal with the unions. What happened? It was literally the only new NFL stadium to come in on time and under budget.

well then ....... http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2447936&postcount=137

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 08:41 AM
but there are bad companies out there also , Trucking is the best example , you can take 7,000 rigs on the road right now , do a D.O.T. inspection level 1 and at least 20% of these rigs will be put out of service , these companies expect drivers do drive these trucks , granted they are safer then Mexican trucks , but they still have saftey issues , Teamsters trucks , you pull in 7,000 , and do an inspection ,0% will be put out of service ,It is like this , Lets say Global puts me in a rig that is unsafe , I refuse to drive it , they cant fire me for it , but they can starve me out , force me to quit and find different work , and this scenario happens alot more then union scenarios , alot of these people that voted are clueless as hell .........They dont think , they just take the headlines or old urban tales and run with it ........

could be true but at same time, i'm taking off real life experience and would have no problems crossing!

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:43 AM
could be true but at same time, i'm taking off real life experience and would have no problems crossing!

in that post , that is real life , every year DOT does a 72 hour sweep ( outside of normal inspections ) , think about that 20% when you are driving down the road and you see an 18 wheeler ...... then get back to me about real life and what effects you ............

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 08:44 AM
I guess hooray for him ? ...... But a union could have done the same thing

Not for the $ and time constraints that project had. This is an indisputable fact. If he accepted the public $ for the stadium, the unions in charge quoted him more $ (before the innevitable overruns) and would've had to push back the opening by one year. Kraft couldn't wait that long. He would've lost millions with a delayed opening.

Gillette came in under budget. Name one single professional stadium project in the last 10 years that has come in under budget with union labor.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:46 AM
Not for the $ and time constraints that project had. This is an indisputable fact. If he accepted the public $ for the stadium, the unions in charge quoted him more $ (before the innevitable overruns) and would've had to push back the opening by one year. Kraft couldn't wait that long. He would've lost millions with a delayed opening.

Gillette came in under budget. Name one single professional stadium project in the last 10 years that has come in under budget with union labor.

he cut corners somewhere ....... even non union house builders here in casper come in over budget ..........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:46 AM
I guess hooray for him ? ...... But a union could have done the same thing

yep, at higher costs, and most likely not on time without change orders to the contract.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:49 AM
he cut corners somewhere ....... even non union house builders here in casper come in over budget ..........


How many Union House Builders are competative in that market. Goose Eggs!

Rohirrim
06-17-2009, 08:49 AM
Um we already are scanning and bagging our own ****.

I mean, the other option will no longer exist.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:49 AM
yep, at higher costs, and most likely not on time without change orders to the contract.
you know damn well he cut corners ..............even non union house builders in Casper Wyoming come in over budget , Senior center here in Casper built by non union labor came in over Budget and late .......

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:50 AM
How many Union House Builders are competative in that market. Goose Eggs!
And yet they still come in over budget .......... Odd isnt it , only Unions do that right

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 08:50 AM
he cut corners somewhere

A bit cynical, no? Why do you think someone can only come in under budget if they cut corners somewhere? Must be all that exposure to union work.

even non union house builders here in casper come in over budget ..........

I'm sure some do, but all of them? I doubt that.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:51 AM
i love how you guys are skipping over the trucker union vs non union ... I dont blame you guys , it shoots your silly ass argument down , so run with Kraft , but everyone knows he cut corners ........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:52 AM
you know damn well he cut corners ..............even non union house builders in Casper Wyoming come in over budget , Senior center here in Casper built by non union labor came in over Budget and late .......


Learn to understand construction contracts and then get back to me.

Most overruns on building contracts are due to oversights by the Developer/ designer/ engineer/ owner. In turn, when additional work is required it lenghtens the contract term by change order.

Go drive a truck!:clown:

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:54 AM
A bit cynical, no? Why do you think someone can only come in under budget if they cut corners somewhere? Must be all that exposure to union work.



I'm sure some do, but all of them? I doubt that.

In Wyoming (sheep ****ing country) there is no "quality control/ inspection process". That's how.:rofl:

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:54 AM
A bit cynical, no? Why do you think someone can only come in under budget if they cut corners somewhere? Must be all that exposure to union work.



I'm sure some do, but all of them? I doubt that.

LOL as if I give a damn if you doubt that or not , Hell even our Senior center came in over Budget and late , I wont even talk about the new court house they are building .............Non Union labor , or the over run cost and delays a contractor hit , turning an old building in Downtown casper into apartments ...Again non union labor ....... Yeah I really care if a guy in the north east believes that non union workers in Wyoming come in over budget .........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:54 AM
i love how you guys are skipping over the trucker union vs non union ... I dont blame you guys , it shoots your silly ass argument down , so run with Kraft , but everyone knows he cut corners ........

Not everything in the world is based on what happens in a truckers world.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:56 AM
Learn to understand construction contracts and then get back to me.

Most overruns on building contracts are due to oversights by the Developer/ designer/ engineer/ owner. In turn, when additional work is required it lenghtens the contract term by change order.

Go drive a truck!:clown:
LOL , then you should know that Kraft cut corners ...if you know all of that ........ Yeah thats what I thought ........ coming in under budget has more to do with **** ups then union vs non union ........

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 08:57 AM
i love how you guys are skipping over the trucker union vs non union ... I dont blame you guys , it shoots your silly ass argument down , so run with Kraft , but everyone knows he cut corners ........

I can only argue what I know. Why would I pretend to know anything about the trucking business when I don't? I'm not going to lie.

I do, however, know all the relevant details about the construction of Gillette Stadium because it had the potential to directly affect me as a taxpayer. So I will give my .02 about it.

Keep pushing the "cut corners" angle, though. If you say it enough maybe even you will believe it. The project got done just the way he wanted, by the time he wanted it done. The whole area has been changed and the surrounding "Patriot Place" complex is quite impressive. It's been there for 7 years now and nothing is falling apart, so if he did cut corners, he at least knew which corners could be cut safely. And 7 years is plenty of time to start seeing "cracks in the foundation" from shoddy work.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:57 AM
Not everything in the world is based on what happens in a truckers world.

LOL this is one of the most stupidest post in this thread bar none .....Go think about it , then get back to me

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 08:57 AM
LOL as if I give a damn if you doubt that or not , Hell even our Senior center came in over Budget and late , I wont even talk about the new court house they are building .............Non Union labor , or the over run cost and delays a contractor hit , turning an old building in Downtown casper into apartments ...Again non union labor ....... Yeah I really care if a guy in the north east believes that non union workers in Wyoming come in over budget .........


Here's an example:

One of my current projects is shut down due to non performance by the owner/ engineering firm. This shut down has increased the project cost by more than $55,000.00 to date and is increasing each day. Not our "non-union fault". It will also delay completion by 5-7 weeks.

Get it!

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 08:59 AM
Yeah I really care if a guy in the north east believes that non union workers in Wyoming come in over budget .........

I didn't say that. I asked if they all do. Naturally, you ignored that part.

I challenged you to come up with one, only one, publicly funded stadium that came in under budget in the last 10 years. Naturally, you ignored that part to.

Spider
06-17-2009, 08:59 AM
I can only argue what I know. Why would I pretend to know anything about the trucking business when I don't? I'm not going to lie.

I do, however, know all the relevant details about the construction of Gillette Stadium because it had the potential to directly affect me as a taxpayer. So I will give my .02 about it.

Keep pushing the "cut corners" angle, though. If you say it enough maybe even you will believe it. The project got done just the way he wanted, by the time he wanted it done. The whole area has been changed and the surrounding "Patriot Place" complex is quite impressive. It's been there for 7 years now and nothing is falling apart, so if he did cut corners, he at least knew which corners could be cut safely. And 7 years is plenty of time to start seeing "cracks in the foundation" from shoddy work.

you dont have to know trucking , all you have to know is if the roads you are sharing with trucks are safe ........all that matters to you is , if something happens , that 18 wheeler behind you can stop ............ and I am not saying the project wasnt done the way he wanted it , I dont know if he wanted corners cut or not , neither do you ..........

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:00 AM
I can only argue what I know. Why would I pretend to know anything about the trucking business when I don't? I'm not going to lie.

I do, however, know all the relevant details about the construction of Gillette Stadium because it had the potential to directly affect me as a taxpayer. So I will give my .02 about it.

Keep pushing the "cut corners" angle, though. If you say it enough maybe even you will believe it. The project got done just the way he wanted, by the time he wanted it done. The whole area has been changed and the surrounding "Patriot Place" complex is quite impressive. It's been there for 7 years now and nothing is falling apart, so if he did cut corners, he at least knew which corners could be cut safely. And 7 years is plenty of time to start seeing "cracks in the foundation" from shoddy work.


There's no "cutting corners" in that type of contruction. The material submittal processes, testing requirements, material certification processes, inspection requirement do not allow for the "slight of hand" in Spiders make belief world.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:01 AM
I didn't say that. I asked if they all do. Naturally, you ignored that part. it was a stupid ass question , of course they do .........

I challenged you to come up with one, only one, publicly funded stadium that came in under budget in the last 10 years. Naturally, you ignored that part to.
why ? you cant just take a project and compare it to others , there are to many variables , So I ignored it cause it was a stupid ass question

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:01 AM
you dont have to know trucking , all you have to know is if the roads you are sharing with trucks are safe ........all that matters to you is , if something happens , that 18 wheeler behind you can stop ............ and I am not saying the project wasnt done the way he wanted it , I dont know if he wanted corners cut or not , neither do you ..........



....and the unions make it safe...Hilarious!

Hotrod
06-17-2009, 09:02 AM
Just a quick question.

Is someone actually on strike???

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:03 AM
There's no "cutting corners" in that type of contruction. The material submittal processes, testing requirements, material certification processes, inspection requirement do not allow for the "slight of hand" in Spiders make belief world.
Bull**** ......... seriously where do you come up with this **** , I have hauled more different grades of metal and Iron you can shake a stick at ....I hauled all different kinds of metals into DIA when they was building it , I have hauled low grade Iron into Coal mines ............ if any one is in a make believe world it is you

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:03 AM
you dont have to know trucking , all you have to know is if the roads you are sharing with trucks are safe ........all that matters to you is , if something happens , that 18 wheeler behind you can stop ...............

In the real world, yes, that's all I need to know. But you specifically called people out for not engaging you in the specific debate about union value in the trucking industry. To do that, I would in fact need to know a little more than just "can the truck behind me stop". I don't, and don't pretend to, so I can't engage you in this very specific discussion. Just like you don't know anything about the construction contracts and bidding processes that TGN deals with every day.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:04 AM
....and the unions make it safe...Hilarious!

well Never seen a teamsters truck put out of service ............you would be lying if you say different

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:06 AM
In the real world, yes, that's all I need to know. But you specifically called people out for not engaging you in the specific debate about union value in the trucking industry. To do that, I would in fact need to know a little more than just "can the truck behind me stop". I don't, and don't pretend to, so I can't engage you in this very specific discussion. Just like you don't know anything about the construction contracts and bidding processes that TGN deals with every day.

Safety in trucking is what I ma talking about , Teamsters make sure that rig is 100% before it hits the road , Indies dont ........... contracts dont mean **** , has nothing to do with a company asking a driver to drive an unsafe truck ...........

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:07 AM
it was a stupid ass question , of course they do .........

I am speechless. You are actually saying that no privately built residence in the entire state has ever come in on or under budget. Wow.


why ? you cant just take a project and compare it to others , there are to many variables , So I ignored it cause it was a stupid ass question

How can you NOT compare them? It's exactly what the owners and the league does any time a new stadium is proposed, because they provide part of the funding for each project. Sure there are variables, but there are common elements to the construction process and the bidding process is pretty clear.

All I asked for was one example. Apparently, that was too much.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:08 AM
So all you need to know to talk about unions in trucking is , is that truck safe ? is that Driver over hours ? Did that drivers dispatcher ask him to do extra as in driving all night ? ........
you guys dont have any Ideas what Unions do for you every freaking day

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:09 AM
well Never seen a teamsters truck put out of service ............you would be lying if you say different

Because you are privy to the location and inspection status of every teamster truck in the entire country for the last 100 years? That's like me saying I know for a fact that every lawyer in this country is in good standing with the bar.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:10 AM
Bull**** ......... seriously where do you come up with this **** , I have hauled more different grades of metal and Iron you can shake a stick at ....I hauled all different kinds of metals into DIA when they was building it , I have hauled low grade Iron into Coal mines ............ if any one is in a make believe world it is you


No YOU ARE FOS!

The "All Knowing SPIDER". People load **** on your trucks, and you haul it. Stay out of "grown ups' business". Just because you haul different grades of metals doesn't mean ****.

I order different "grades" (as you so eloquently put it) of metal, piping, concrete, lumber, etc,.. every ****ing day. But I order and install what is required by the project specifications and code requirements. If I didn't I would be out of business.

BTW: most truckers who deliver material to my site don't know **** about what they are hauling.

bronco_boi_5280
06-17-2009, 09:10 AM
I love when Spider shows his idiotic colors.

TRUCK DRIVIN, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 09:11 AM
i love how you guys are skipping over the trucker union vs non union ... I dont blame you guys , it shoots your silly ass argument down , so run with Kraft , but everyone knows he cut corners ........


yet when someone gves you union (non trucker) examples proving thier side you don't take that into account...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:11 AM
I am speechless. You are actually saying that no privately built residence in the entire state has ever come in on or under budget. Wow.
none that has been contracted out in Casper , even the Elementary school came in way over budget , the new one now isnt doing much better ...



How can you NOT compare them? It's exactly what the owners and the league does any time a new stadium is proposed, because they provide part of the funding for each project. Sure there are variables, but there are common elements to the construction process and the bidding process is pretty clear.

All I asked for was one example. Apparently, that was too much.
Thats right you cant , dirt work in Mass is different then dirt work in Colorado , or Neb , the ground freezes deeper in the rockies , then it does in rolling hills , you guys got moisture , we are pretty arid ......building something here is different then building in the north east

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:14 AM
yet when someone gves you union (non trucker) examples proving thier side you don't take that into account...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Cause I know when I am being bull****ted ,of course there are examples of abuse , but to claim these abuses dont happen in non union shops is crazy .......
I have been on the road for 24+ years , I have hauled just about everything you can think of , I have been in and out of union shops ,projects , etc ......

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 09:16 AM
Cause I know when I am being bull****ted ,of course there are examples of abuse , but to claim these abuses dont happen in non union shops is crazy .......
I have been on the road for 24+ years , I have hauled just about everything you can think of , I have been in and out of union shops ,projects , etc ......

not once did i say they didnt happen in non union companyies yet you seem to think i did

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:18 AM
Ok you guys want an example of stupid **** non union , fine top this , I loaded a load of fresh strawberries out of L.A. Calif. took them to the San Antonio Market in Texas , unloaded , loaded in the next building over in the market ....... Frozen Strawberries going right back to LA ......I know Union shops wont let Cali freeze their own strawberries right ? yeah thats it

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:19 AM
not once did i say they didnt happen in non union companyies yet you seem to think i did

but yet you hold it against Unions ..... yet you know the topic ......

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:21 AM
Thats right you cant , dirt work in Mass is different then dirt work in Colorado , or Neb , the ground freezes deeper in the rockies , then it does in rolling hills , you guys got moisture , we are pretty arid ......building something here is different then building in the north east

I understand that. But you know what? The LOCAL builders build that into their budgets and price them accordingly. I'm not talking about why the bottom lines are different. I'm talking about why the budgets are blown in one type of project but not the other.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:29 AM
I understand that. But you know what? The LOCAL builders build that into their budgets and price them accordingly. I'm not talking about why the bottom lines are different. I'm talking about why the budgets are blown in one type of project but not the other.
thats just it ,This is just 1 example , lets say a dump truck breaks down , or a excavator , or some other equipment , down time in the north east is different , cause you have more outlets to repair shops , easier to get parts , or a replacement , out west here even in trucking we have to wait for part to be shipped in the longer the down time , the more we face the freeze , or cold weather ...... my Neighbor the Cat Mechanic , just dumped a crane ( not his fault ) down a ravine , so far the cost is 350K , and the parts are coming in slowly , so energy had to order another crane , the only ones they could find that wasnt busy were to small , so they have a massive delay ......... **** happens

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:33 AM
I'm not talking about projects in the middle of nowhere. I'm only looking at major urban centers with new stadiums....most of which have been on the coasts, in cities very similar to Foxboro, MA, with the same quick access to said equipment and materials.

We're talking NY, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, etc. I'm not talking about the middle of a field in Nebraska.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:34 AM
what I am saying is , in order to compare , you have to find the exact same job( size dimensions etc ) , union vs non union , then go through the breakdowns , adjustments etc ..... Can you name a union job exactly like Gillette stadium ?

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:37 AM
I'm not talking about projects in the middle of nowhere. I'm only looking at major urban centers with new stadiums....most of which have been on the coasts, in cities very similar to Foxboro, MA, with the same quick access to said equipment and materials.

We're talking NY, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, etc. I'm not talking about the middle of a field in Nebraska.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2448067&postcount=185
and anything west of the Mississippi and east of Las vegas it takes longer for alot of parts heavy equipment ,etc , outside of Ritchie Bros , you dont find places out here with a large inventory of Heavy equip ......even in Dallas , now farm equipment is another story

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:38 AM
thats just it ,This is just 1 example , lets say a dump truck breaks down , or a excavator , or some other equipment , down time in the north east is different , cause you have more outlets to repair shops , easier to get parts , or a replacement , out west here even in trucking we have to wait for part to be shipped in the longer the down time , the more we face the freeze , or cold weather ...... my Neighbor the Cat Mechanic , just dumped a crane ( not his fault ) down a ravine , so far the cost is 350K , and the parts are coming in slowly , so energy had to order another crane , the only ones they could find that wasnt busy were to small , so they have a massive delay ......... **** happens

WTF does this have to do with the "price of eggs in china"/ the subject at hand.

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 09:41 AM
but yet you hold it against Unions ..... yet you know the topic ......

you're right i do because of my personal experiences in 3 different UNIONS!

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:42 AM
Did you just compare Dallas texas to Foxboro ?
let me put it like this , alot of places dont hold on to Heavy equip very long cause of floor taxes , the east coast seems to have alot more smaller dealerships and demand for heavy equip then out west ....... Heavy equip is a different animal then most other things you can store when it comes to taxes ...... So again point to a Union Job with the exact same dimensions as gillette stadium ( not the same design ) and then we can compare

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:44 AM
WTF does this have to do with the "price of eggs in china"/ the subject at hand.

re read it ............you are losing ground after your trucking comment , this is a chance to redeem yourself ...... and then you tell me why it is faster and cheaper to get parts out east then it is here in the rockies

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:45 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2448067&postcount=185
and anything west of the Mississippi and east of Las vegas it takes longer for alot of parts heavy equipment ,etc , outside of Ritchie Bros , you dont find places out here with a large inventory of Heavy equip ......even in Dallas , now farm equipment is another story

Look at my list above. Dallas is the only one then that should be removed from the list using your criteria. All the rest are East of the Mississippi or west of LV.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:45 AM
you're right i do because of my personal experiences in 3 different UNIONS!

So then why not hold the same prejudice against non union shops ? Injustice is injustice union or not

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:47 AM
Look at my list above. Dallas is the only one then that should be removed from the list using your criteria. All the rest are East of the Mississippi or west of LV.well now that it is narrowed down , go find a union Job like Gillette ........ compare them

alkemical
06-17-2009, 09:47 AM
If there isn't a "LEGAL ISSUE" then they have no quarrels, correct?

RE: we don't understand: I call BS. One of my sons has been unemployed for over 7 months, and I do know how difficult it is to find suitable employment.

FYI: there were several times in my life when I did work for pay which I didn't consider fair for the type of work I was doing at the time. So, cry me a river.

Unions suck. Union workers (the majority) are in it for the ride.

Using your logic, most companies suck because they don't want to pay anybody a fair wage.

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:49 AM
re read it ............you are losing ground after your trucking comment , this is a chance to redeem yourself ...... and then you tell me why it is faster and cheaper to get parts out east then it is here in the rockies

No Dumbass, your parts deflection has nothing to due with the union conversation, nor the overuns on projects.


Stick to trucking!:wiggle:

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Using your logic, most companies suck because they don't want to pay anybody a fair wage.

Smoking that **** again, are we?

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:52 AM
No Dumbass, your parts deflection has nothing to due with the union conversation, nor the overuns on projects.


Stick to trucking!:wiggle:LOL are you sure you are in the business ? everyone one knows delays = over run cost .......... + another little tidbit everyone seems to know but you , Delays makes it hard to meet deadlines , that was one of the things Beantown added in his first post .......

alkemical
06-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Smoking that **** again, are we?

Good old ad-homimen attacks when you got nothing else.

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:53 AM
well now that it is narrowed down , go find a union Job like Gillette ........ compare them

Nice try. I've already asked you 3 times to come up with one. I've spoon fed you all the projects to choose from (you can add Indy actually) and you still can't come up with anything aside from "well, you prove the opposite".

BTW - Kraft already did just what you are asking for and he made his decision clear after he crunched the numbers. Are you claiming to be a better business man and owner than Robert Kraft?

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:53 AM
LOL wait I got it , only union projects have break downs right ?

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:54 AM
LOL wait I got it , only union projects have break downs right ?

Nobody has claimed this even once, yet you keep repeating it.

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:55 AM
Nice try. I've already asked you 3 times to come up with one. I've spoon fed you all the projects to choose from and you still can't come up with anything aside from "well, you prove the opposite".

BTW - Kraft already did just what you are asking for and he made his decision clear after he crunched the numbers. Are you claiming to be a better business man and owner than Robert Kraft?

apparently you dont have one or you would have already brought it up ......... you are just fishing ......now how do you get I think I ma a better business man then Kraft , from me saying he cut corners ?
reach much ?

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:56 AM
apparently you dont have one or you would have already brought it up .........

Dude. THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT.

There isn't a single publicly funded ("built by a union") NFL stadium built in the last 10 years that has come in under budget.

rugbythug
06-17-2009, 09:57 AM
Using your logic, most companies suck because they don't want to pay anybody a fair wage.

Define Fair

If person A wants 15 an hour and Person B wants 8 an hour who is more fair?

UberBroncoMan
06-17-2009, 09:58 AM
Two words.

**** unions.

(brought to you by Detroit)

Spider
06-17-2009, 09:59 AM
Nobody has claimed this even once, yet you keep repeating it.
Despite Tailgate taking a break from the real world , breakdowns factor into the over run cost , it is part of life , Delays are costly for everyone involved , you used Gillette stadium coming in under Budget and on time , I have no Idea what his budget was , but his time frame = Not to many break downs ( providing he didnt cut corners ) .........So .........yes you did , you just didnt come right out and say it

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 09:59 AM
.now how do you get I think I ma a better business man then Kraft , from me saying he cut corners ?
reach much ?

NO!

I'm saying it because he had access to all the numbers. After looking at all the other recent stadiums built, and crunching all the numbers, he literally chose to pay for Gillette Stadium OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET instead of accepting taxpayer money and having to deal with the union labor. That is what I'm talking about in terms of him being a better business man. He weighed the pros and cons of both sides and made his decision to avoid the unions even though it would've saved him hundreds of millions of dollars.

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Dude. THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT.

There isn't a single publicly funded ("built by a union") NFL stadium built in the last 10 years that has come in under budget.

And how many of them were the exact same dimensions as Gillette ?

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:02 AM
NO!

I'm saying it because he had access to all the numbers. After looking at all the other recent stadiums built, and crunching all the numbers, he literally chose to pay for Gillette Stadium OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET instead of accepting taxpayer money and having to deal with the union labor. That is what I'm talking about in terms of him being a better business man. He weighed the pros and cons of both sides and made his decision to avoid the unions even though it would've saved him hundreds of millions of dollars.

And the owners Like Jerry Jones dont have access to the #'s ? is there a special secret club that has these # ? .. How do I become a member ? i want those #'s , I will form a union and sell them to Jerry Jones

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 10:02 AM
LOL are you sure you are in the business ? everyone one knows delays = over run cost .......... + another little tidbit everyone seems to know but you , Delays makes it hard to meet deadlines , that was one of the things Beantown added in his first post .......

NO DUMBASS! Delays do not= over run costs. I (and no contractor) cannot pass on my delays and associated costs to the owner. If the delays are attributable to the owner, then I can bill for my associated costs. If I exceed the alloted contract time the owner has a punitive damage clause in the contract to recoup his losses/ damages.

Just STFU while you're above water. You in way over your head. You constantly BS your way around topics and then toss in the trucker perspective. IMO, truckers are glorified errand boys. "Here, take this ****, and bring it to that guy." Don't get me wrong, they are a neccesary evil", and don't ask them to back up. :~ohyah!:

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 10:06 AM
Despite Tailgate taking a break from the real world , breakdowns factor into the over run cost , it is part of life ,

This coming from a trucker is just hilarious. The real world.

Your contracts consist of take this **** over there, and try not to **** that simple task up! Don't get lost, and don't be late.

Pretty simple!

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:10 AM
NO DUMBASS! Delays do not= over run costs. I (and no contractor) cannot pass on my delays and associated costs to the owner. True , but delays cost the owner in other areas also , you ****ing retard , engineers , insurance , taxes etc , the longer yo utake the more it cost him , or havent you figured that out yet ?

If the delays are attributable to the owner, then I can bill for my associated costs. If I exceed the alloted contract time the owner has a punitive damage clause in the contract to recoup his losses/ damages. No really ? are you sure ?

Just STFU while you're above water. You in way over your head. You constantly BS your way around topics and then toss in the trucker perspective. IMO, truckers are glorified errand boys. "Here, take this ****, and bring it to that guy." Don't get me wrong, they are a neccesary evil", and don't ask them to back up. :~ohyah!:

LOL this coming from a special ed bastard , that didnt understand the break down concept of making a job run over cost ........ good thing they dont let you in a truck

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 10:10 AM
And the owners Like Jerry Jones dont have access to the #'s ? is there a special secret club that has these # ? .. How do I become a member ? i want those #'s , I will form a union and sell them to Jerry Jones

Slowly this time.

All the owners obviously have access to the numbers. Kraft made the choice not to accept the public funding. By doing this, he cost himself personally hundreds of millions of dollars.

Not all the owners are obviously willing to do this.

Also, Kraft NEEDED the project done for the 2002 season (I won't get into all the details here, but I can if needed). The state approval process would've delayed it until at least 2003, so Kraft needed to go the private route for that reason as well.

Jerry Jones and the other owners didn't have the time constraints Kraft was dealing with. That's reason no. 2.

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:11 AM
This coming from a trucker is just hilarious. The real world.

Your contracts consist of take this **** over there, and try not to **** that simple task up! Don't get lost, and don't be late.

Pretty simple!

And yet I still have more of a clue then you .....

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:14 AM
Slowly this time.I will try

All the owners obviously have access to the numbers. Kraft made the choice not to accept the public funding. By doing this, he cost himself personally hundreds of millions of dollars. well **** , these goes the union Idea


Also, Kraft NEEDED the project done for the 2002 season (I won't get into all the details here, but I can if needed). The state approval process would've delayed it until at least 2003, so Kraft needed to go the private route for that reason as well.

Jerry Jones and the other owners didn't have the time constraints Kraft was dealing with. That's reason no. 2.
But you said it WAS BECAUSE HE DIDNT WANT TO DEAL WITH UNIONS , in your opening statement , that was your only reason , now we are getting into time constraints .............but the last part of your post makes more sense then your others .........

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:15 AM
Define Fair

If person A wants 15 an hour and Person B wants 8 an hour who is more fair?


Depends on what the job is, and what skills are required.

For instance - my call center reps have a cap on their wages at $17/hr. I think that's a fair wage for the bull**** they deal with, both from customers and from corporate.


Most make about $13/hr though. The 17/hr wage is for people who've been there about 10 years.


I think that's a pretty fair rate. There's some skill involved, and the bull**** factor is kind of high.

But then if you want to factor in how wages don't keep up with cost of living, etc - so there are factors in it.

Actions that are not illegal, but unethical are just as bad IMO. (just like when teachers unions hold hostage a town and cause property taxes to jump).

The fact of the matter is - the left's view of corporations, and the right's view of big gov't is exactly the same.

That's why unions are needed, and why the mixed model economic system we have is needed.

You need enough free market to help dictate wages, but you can't leave it up to one or the other (unions/corporations) to set those wages.

If you left it up to corporations, they'd pay all of us ****.

if you left it up to unions, business's would lose some rights they need to have.

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 10:17 AM
But you said it WAS BECAUSE HE DIDNT WANT TO DEAL WITH UNIONS , in your opening statement , that was your only reason , now we are getting into time constraints .............but the last part of your post makes more sense then your others .........

If you ignore the "on time and under budget" comments I've been making from post no. 1....then sure, you could say that was my only reason....

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 10:18 AM
True , but delays cost the owner in other areas also , you ****ing retard , engineers , insurance , taxes etc , the longer yo utake the more it cost him , or havent you figured that out yet ?

No really ? are you sure ?



LOL this coming from a special ed bastard , that didnt understand the break down concept of making a job run over cost ........ good thing they dont let you in a truck


Delays not attributable to the owners' negligence/ fault do not cost him due to contractually agreed upon punitive fees. If the owner realizes losses stemming from contractor negligence, mismanagement, or any other fault attributable to the contractor, the owner can deduct those losses from the contract amount.

You are a ****ing idiot who drives a truck and are attempting to argue construction contract content and language with me.Hilarious!

Why do I waste my time.

It's akin to discussion aeronautical engineering with a toddler.

Go play with your Tonka!

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:21 AM
If you ignore the "on time and under budget" comments I've been making from post no. 1....then sure, you could say that was my only reason....

then again we get into the cutting corners , but you didnt mention any deadline , you just came in on time , a Union could have done it also.........Case closed

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 10:21 AM
And yet I still have more of a clue then you .....

You win!:spit:

It's a waste of time arguing with someone as challenged as yourself.

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 10:22 AM
then again we get into the cutting corners , but you didnt mention any deadline , you just came in on time , a Union could have done it also.........Case closed

nope. the union couldn't.

case closed.

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:24 AM
Delays not attributable to the owners' negligence/ fault do not cost him due to contractually agreed upon punitive fees. If the owner realizes losses stemming from contractor negligence, mismanagement, or any other fault attributable to the contractor, the owner can deduct those losses from the contract amount.

You are a ****ing idiot who drives a truck and are attempting to argue construction contract content and language with me.Hilarious!

Why do I waste my time.

It's akin to discussion aeronautical engineering with a toddler.

Go play with your Tonka!
LOL for a self claimed expert . you sure do talk like an Idiot ..... But I think I know your problem , I think you bid on jobs from other contractors , it is obvious you dont deal with the top, hell even non union housing jobs face the same things I listed as delays that cost the owners ........ stay safe in your Trailer

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:24 AM
nope. the union couldn't.

case closed.

Only in your mind ............

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:25 AM
You win!:spit:

It's a waste of time arguing with someone as challenged as yourself.

then shut the **** up and move along ............

Tom A Hawk
06-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Legally, there's no case (partially due to the lobbists that walmart pays for). Ethically it's a bad situation. Uhm, have you tried looking for work right now? Cuz out here, it's pretty ****ty and big business is taking full advantage of it.

Again, i'm asking for FAIR wages - not bloated wages.

I know that you boomers won't and don't understand it until you guys get axed and have to rebuild. But some of us in the gen X/Y generations are getting ****ed pretty bad - as well as the lower spectrum of the middle class.

Wal-Mart is always hiring...give em a holler

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:26 AM
Why is it worker productivity goes up, but wages go down?

If you are MORE productive, shouldn't your rate of pay reflect that?

Why don't companies feel obligated to pay people more, if the company is making record profits?

Why does the CEO at hershey make about $10mil/yr - with a $20mil parachute - but then threaten the town of hershey (after making record profits) that if the union workers don't cut pay and benefits they are moving to mexico? (avg wage is $17/hr for reese's) when indeed - the numbers reflected showed that a $2/mil "effort" to either pay people more, or keep their health benne's was rejected - when the company makes way more than that in profit many times over?

If we want to get out of this economic funk, we need to drop taxes - have fair wages and watch the market pick up pretty quick.

But of course big gov't doesn't want it - because then there is less revenue and big biz doesn't want it...because then there is less revenue...

Which begs to question of greed: When is enough enough, and when is too much too much?

I just want fair, and i'm being honest in my assessment of 'fair'. It's not like i think i should be paid $50/hr for what i do, and it's not about being greedy.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:27 AM
Wal-Mart is always hiring...give em a holler

I guess you didn't see my point about their labor practices, which you know - sort of proves my point.

Maybe you could get hooked on phonics, it might help you learn to read.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:31 AM
and walmart's a great example. A subsidized business who tells their workers to go on state assistance for benefits.

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 10:32 AM
Only in your mind ............

And by the union's own admission. The unions in their own estimates said that "at best" they could get the job done by 2003, but likely it would take them until 2004." Only a part of those delays would be due to the different approval process they'd have to go through than the private contractors.

ElwayMD
06-17-2009, 10:33 AM
Unions are such a tired and unecessary function in todays economy. Work your ass off, become educated and you will never have to rely on a union to protect your job, simple as that.

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:34 AM
And by the union's own admission. The unions in their own estimates said that "at best" they could get the job done by 2003, but likely it would take them until 2004." Only a part of those delays would be due to the different approval process they'd have to go through than the private contractors.
How long will it take before the Not all union Contractors are the same .... will sink in here ?

Beantown Bronco
06-17-2009, 10:35 AM
How long will it take before the Not all union Contractors are the same .... will sink in here ?

When it comes to the ones that build stadiums, they are all the same.

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:35 AM
and walmart's a great example. A subsidized business who tells their workers to go on state assistance for benefits.

;D .............

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:36 AM
When it comes to the ones that build stadiums, they are all the same.

LOL , that speaks for itself

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Good old ad-homimen attacks when you got nothing else.

Just "responding" to your response.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Unions are such a tired and unecessary function in todays economy. Work your ass off, become educated and you will never have to rely on a union to protect your job, simple as that.

Of course that's what anti-union people always say. But it's not always 100% truth.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 10:41 AM
Just "responding" to your response.

Not really. I was just pointing out the fallacy in your circular logic. It's not my fault it went over your head and you only could respond with ad-hominem attacks.

hey if you are unprepared to actually discuss something, go do some research and come back. Stop being a douche otherwise.

ElwayMD
06-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Of course that's what anti-union people always say. But it's not always 100% truth.

But it more than often is the truth.

bfoflcommish
06-17-2009, 10:47 AM
So then why not hold the same prejudice against non union shops ? Injustice is injustice union or not



that isnt the arguement! the arguement would be would you cross, and i stated why!


oh btw i dont shop walmart either..feel a little better?

Spider
06-17-2009, 10:49 AM
that isnt the arguement! the arguement would be would you cross, and i stated why! ;D And I stated why i feel that was messed up


oh btw i dont shop walmart either..feel a little better?Much better , i can now die happy

TailgateNut
06-17-2009, 11:53 AM
Not really. I was just pointing out the fallacy in your circular logic. It's not my fault it went over your head and you only could respond with ad-hominem attacks.

hey if you are unprepared to actually discuss something, go do some research and come back. Stop being a douche otherwise.


No, you made some horse**** conclusion from my post, so I responded with horse****. Regardless, my opinion of unions and union workers remains as stated earlier. Useless, outdated concept good for those who cannot survive in todays job market based solely on their own qualifications and experience.

Strenght in number being their motto, becuase they have no strenghts themselves.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 12:20 PM
No, you made some horse**** conclusion from my post, so I responded with horse****. Regardless, my opinion of unions and union workers remains as stated earlier. Useless, outdated concept good for those who cannot survive in todays job market based solely on their own qualifications and experience.

Strenght in number being their motto, becuase they have no strenghts themselves.

hey man, if you can't keep up then don't play. You responded with an ad-hominem attack because you didn't like my answer - which when provided with data from some of the most egregious examples of how a few big businesses are really ****ing over the working class - you don't want to hear it.


Maybe i could have questioned your parenting skills about your kid being lazy since he's not working - but instead of taking cheap shots - i took the high road and presented you with the same example - but you didn't like the answer.

Grow up. Stop rationalizing your doucheness.

I have no problems with citing abuses and the ineffectiveness of unions (as i've cited in posts above). But you can't remove protections from the working class in a corporate-socialist society. Just like i've also cited that you can't expect to make $50/hr doing assembly line work unless - you are one of the few people that can do that job, and the market has allowed that wage to be paid.

Disagree with me fine, taking stupid pot shots because you can't debate just makes you a douchebag.

gyldenlove
06-17-2009, 12:27 PM
But it more than often is the truth.

How many jobs are there in the US that have to be performed by people with a Bachelors degree or better compared to how many jobs you can perform with a high school diploma or less?

I bet you will find that if everybody did what you say, there would be no garbage pickup, nobody to sell you groceries, drive your cab, serve you drinks, make your drinks, assemble your car, fix your car, truck your groceries, grow your groceries..... What a lovely world that would be.

I much prefer to have unionized labor and actually have people do those things so I don't have to.

Mountain Bronco
06-17-2009, 12:32 PM
most stupidest


Yes!

gyldenlove
06-17-2009, 12:34 PM
Also, for the record, a grocery store union seems like the most pointless organization in the world. Maybe I don't appreciate the specialized skills that are being "protected" here, but it seems to me that anyone on the street can check groceries with a minimal level of training. If I was a grocery store owner, I'd fire union members knowing that I could hire off the street by end of business today.

This is why I've always scoffed at attempts to unionize Walmart workers. It's not in the worker's best interests to unionize because if they did, they wouldn't have jobs. They'd get fired, and their jobs would be filled by the time they turned in their smock.

That is partially true.

With unions it is always about size, if 40-50% of all Walmart employees unionize at once, Walmart can lay them off, they would get a class-action lawsuit of course and meanwhile they would be reeling to fill the roster. It is always about volume when it comes to unionizing.

chadta
06-17-2009, 12:37 PM
when asked about if non union cost over runs dont exsist

Nobody has claimed this even once, yet you keep repeating it.

tell that to your buddy tailgatenut, altho hes not sure if its the unions fault or if he can actually blame the guys responsible for the delays, but it suits his arguements to blame the union so go with that.

yep, at higher costs, and most likely not on time without change orders to the contract.

so tgn and bb aare on the same side but not, then tgn spoke out of the other side of his face, and let the truth slip out.


Most overruns on building contracts are due to oversights by the Developer/ designer/ engineer/ owner. In turn, when additional work is required it lenghtens the contract term by change order

but continued to blame it on the unions. :thumbsup:

Here's an example:

One of my current projects is shut down due to non performance by the owner/ engineering firm. This shut down has increased the project cost by more than $55,000.00 to date and is increasing each day. Not our "non-union fault". It will also delay completion by 5-7 weeks.

Get it!

but then is quick to defend the non union labour for an overrun that clearly wasnt there fault.


The fact of the matter is - the left's view of corporations, and the right's view of big gov't is exactly the same.

That's why unions are needed, and why the mixed model economic system we have is needed.

You need enough free market to help dictate wages, but you can't leave it up to one or the other (unions/corporations) to set those wages.

If you left it up to corporations, they'd pay all of us ****.

if you left it up to unions, business's would lose some rights they need to have.

then comes the josh with the post of the year, rep

its all about being reasonable both sides of the argument, not just the unions not making stupid demands, but the employer not making silly demands either.

alkemical
06-17-2009, 12:38 PM
Also, for the record, a grocery store union seems like the most pointless organization in the world. Maybe I don't appreciate the specialized skills that are being "protected" here, but it seems to me that anyone on the street can check groceries with a minimal level of training. If I was a grocery store owner, I'd fire union members knowing that I could hire off the street by end of business today.

This is why I've always scoffed at attempts to unionize Walmart workers. It's not in the worker's best interests to unionize because if they did, they wouldn't have jobs. They'd get fired, and their jobs would be filled by the time they turned in their smock.

Just as an example:

Wal-Mart Anti-Union Policy

Wal-Mart closes down stores and departments that unionize

* Wal-Mart closed its store in Jonquierre, Quebec in April 2005 after its employees received union certification. The store became the first unionized Wal-Mart in North America when 51 percent of the employees at the store signed union cards. [Washington Post, 4/14/05]

* In December 2005, the Quebec Labour Board ordered Wal-Mart to compensate former employees of its store in Jonquiere Quebec. The Board ruled that Wal-Mart had improperly closed the store in April 2005 in reprisal against unionized workers. [Personnel Today, 12/19/05]

* In 2000, when a small meatcutting department successfully organized a union at a Wal-Mart store in Texas, Wal-Mart responded a week later by announcing the phase-out of its in-store meatcutting company-wide. [Pan Demetrakakes, "Is Wal-Mart Wrapped in Union Phobia?" Food & Packaging 76 (August 1, 2003).]

Wal-Mart has issued "A Manager's Toolbox to Remaining Union Free,"

* This toolbox provides managers with lists of warning signs that workers might be organizing, including "frequent meetings at associates' homes" and "associates who are never seen together start talking or associating with each other." The "Toolbox" gives managers a hotline to call so that company specialists can respond rapidly and head off any attempt by employees to organize. [Wal-Mart, A Manager's Toolbox to Remaining Union Free at 20-21]

Wal-Mart is committed to an anti-union policy

* In the last few years, well over 100 unfair labor practice charges have been filed against Wal-Mart throughout the country, with 43 charges filed in 2002 alone.

* Since 1995, the U.S. government has been forced to issue at least 60 complaints against Wal-Mart at the National Labor Relations Board. [International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU), Internationally Recognised Core Labour Standards in the United States: Report for the WTO General Council Review of the Trade Policies of the United States (Geneva, January 14-16, 2004)]

* Wal-Mart's labor law violations range from illegally firing workers who attempt to organize a union to unlawful surveillance, threats, and intimidation of employees who dare to speak out. ["Everyday Low Wages: The Hidden Price We All Pay for Wal-Mart," A Report by the Democratic Staff of the Committee on Education and the Workforce, 2/16/04]

chadta
06-17-2009, 12:41 PM
That is partially true.

With unions it is always about size, if 40-50% of all Walmart employees unionize at once, Walmart can lay them off, they would get a class-action lawsuit of course and meanwhile they would be reeling to fill the roster. It is always about volume when it comes to unionizing.

and they dont have to pay the lawyers for that, the "Union does"

most of us have car insurance, most of us have home insurance, think of a union as job insurance, having auto insurance dosnet make you a better driver, but it protects you if you mess up, it also protects you when somebody else messes you up, and much like insurance a union can be a pain in the ass to deal with. nothings prefect, never said it was, but it is needed.

TDmvp
06-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Might I add thank god for Wal-Mart .

alkemical
06-17-2009, 12:45 PM
when asked about if non union cost over runs dont exsist



tell that to your buddy tailgatenut, altho hes not sure if its the unions fault or if he can actually blame the guys responsible for the delays, but it suits his arguements to blame the union so go with that.



so tgn and bb aare on the same side but not, then tgn spoke out of the other side of his face, and let the truth slip out.




but continued to blame it on the unions. :thumbsup:



but then is quick to defend the non union labour for an overrun that clearly wasnt there fault.




then comes the josh with the post of the year, rep

its all about being reasonable both sides of the argument, not just the unions not making stupid demands, but the employer not making silly demands either.


I just don't get how difficult it is to understand that without labor protection we'll all be making the same wage(s)...lower! ;)

That's a slight exaggeration. But when you look at the consumer models of Wal*Mart (which is an easy) - they pay their people bad wages, dictate that for benefits employees should go on state assistance - meanwhile as consumers we support this action, and as taxpayers we subsidize it.

It's a really ****ed up cycle.

But the less businesses pay people - the less they spend. The less they spend, the less they make - the less they make - the less opportunity exists.

Then businesses have a less talented workforce with little motivation, and with the lack of loyalty between business and employee - nobody trusts the other and is out to stick each other with whatever they can get: Low wages, workplace theft, low production per worker, negative customer feedback, etc.

All of these little factors build into a bigger factor.

It's not an either/or situation. It's time to grow up America and stop being stupid children that can't share, and know when enough is enough. It goes for greed, work ethic, profit sharing, etc.

If indeed we are going to get out of this economic funk, it takes EVERYONE to pitch in.

It just gets my ire when companies are getting large profit margins but don't feel the need to reward the workers who make them very successful. Legally and ethically issues are different i understand. But we can't continue to tolerate one, for the other - when indeed the results are the same.