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View Full Version : Had the Broncos not drafted Jay Cutler and stayed with Jake Plummer?


Bronco Rob
06-11-2009, 10:58 AM
Had the Broncos not drafted Jay Cutler in 2006 and stayed the course with Jake Plummer, where do you think they would be at this point?

-- Nick Webster, Honolulu



Nick - Hmmmm. Nowhere, really. Neither Jay nor Jake played defense. I think Jake would still be the smarter choice. I liked his game more than most, although I was in New York for part of his stay in Denver. I will say this: When Jake took his shirt off, he had the worst upper body I've ever seen for a pro quarterback. His body is more suited for handball, and he must have figured that out, too.

Jake did help the Broncos get to the AFC title game, and he was mobile. But it didn't work here. Other teams would take him back in a minute. But the Broncos didn't do enough defensively to help him or Cutler. Who would they have drafted if it hadn't been Cutler? Probably another quarterback. Mike Shanahan wanted someone else. He got his man. He and his man are gone.


By Woody Paige
The Denver Post



http://www.denverpost.com/sportsheadlines/ci_12562741?source=rss





:pimp:

BMarsh615
06-11-2009, 11:02 AM
I don't know why... but that font pisses me the **** off every time I read one of your threads.

bronco610
06-11-2009, 11:06 AM
We would have still sucked at defense because Shanny ignored it.
And that font is definetly bad.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 11:08 AM
I hate that font....

why would Woody Paige bring up Jake taking off his shirt? seems odd.

"so, whos a better player Lebron or Kobe?"

"shirt on or shirt off?"

confused

Bronco Rob
06-11-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't know why... but that font pisses me the **** off every time I read one of your threads.

I hate that font....


Should I "86" that font?






?

Hotrod
06-11-2009, 11:14 AM
I just dont see anyway this thread ends up any other way then badly Ha!

Popps
06-11-2009, 11:24 AM
Shanahan had ample opportunity to fix the defense. Think about the difference a guy like Joey Porter (among others) could have meant for a team on the doorstep of a Superbowl.

But, he decided swapping QBs was the answer instead of getting serious about the defense. So, not surprisingly... we are where we are. He's without a job and we're attempting to rebuild the team properly.

Gcver2ver3
06-11-2009, 11:32 AM
Shanahan had ample opportunity to fix the defense. Think about the difference a guy like Joey Porter (among others) could have meant for a team on the doorstep of a Superbowl.

But, he decided swapping QBs was the answer instead of getting serious about the defense. So, not surprisingly... we are where we are. He's without a job and we're attempting to rebuild the team properly.

i hear what you're saying...

but at the time Plummer was benched, our defense was actually consider top notch (although later we came to find out it wasn't the case)...

he benched Plummer because offensively we were struggling...

i for one am glad it panned out the way it did...we needed wholescale changes...

Popps
06-11-2009, 11:33 AM
I hate that font....

why would Woody Paige bring up Jake taking off his shirt? seems odd.


Maybe Woody was just so in awe of Jay's physique, anything else paled in comparison...


http://notqualifiedtocomment.com/wp-content/uploads/jay-greg.jpg

Popps
06-11-2009, 11:37 AM
i hear what you're saying...

but at the time Plummer was benched, our defense was actually consider top notch (although later we came to find out it wasn't the case)...

he benched Plummer because offensively we were struggling...

i for one am glad it panned out the way it did...we needed wholescale changes...



Our defense was smoke and mirrors for a long time. Certainly better than what we ended up with after flipping QBs, but we fell apart routinely in our biggest tests.

An argument could have been made that both sides of the ball needed improvement, but there is little doubt that we failed the defensive side of the ball miserably, going from at least a serviceable defense to one of the worst in the league.

And, time marches on. New staff, new players and new hope...

Punisher
06-11-2009, 11:39 AM
Shanny had a good vision on Cutler... For the most part he was right, if he would of found a good Defensive Coach we will be in good Shape right now...

DeuceOfClub
06-11-2009, 11:40 AM
ǝ1qıɹɹoɥ sı ʇuoɟ sıɥʇ

Taco John
06-11-2009, 11:45 AM
Shanny had a good vision on Cutler... For the most part he was right, if he would of found a good Defensive Coach we will be in good Shape right now...


He had a good defensive coach with Coyer. Cutting Plummer wasn't the problem. Plummer played his way out of a job - he didn't just get replaced. He earned what he got.

Firing Coyer was the problem. Suddenly, we found out that having a guy who could motivate on defense is just as important as someone who can X and O.

Punisher
06-11-2009, 11:55 AM
He had a good defensive coach with Coyer. Cutting Plummer wasn't the problem. Plummer played his way out of a job - he didn't just get replaced. He earned what he got.

Firing Coyer was the problem. Suddenly, we found out that having a guy who could motivate on defense is just as important as someone who can X and O.

In the AFC Championship game Coyer got out Coach and Plummer played behind most of the game.Really when i take a look back at the game Plummer and Rod Smith where the only two playing their hearts out.

Maybe if Champ would of Pick off that ball..... ::)

Taco John
06-11-2009, 12:06 PM
In the AFC Championship game Coyer got out Coach and Plummer played behind most of the game.Really when i take a look back at the game Plummer and Rod Smith where the only two playing their hearts out.

Maybe if Champ would of Pick off that ball..... ::)



In the AFC Championship game, it all happened out on the field. It wasn't anything Coyer did or didn't do.

And Jake choked that game away with four turnovers. He played everybody's hearts right out of their chest.

If Jake wasn't such a choke artist in the playoffs, none of this would even be a discussion. Jake was/is his own worst enemy. He knew it too. It's why he gave up on football.

TheReverend
06-11-2009, 12:11 PM
Should I "86" that font?






?

Please do.

bronco militia
06-11-2009, 12:11 PM
if Jake Plummer would have played better in 2006 I bet he'd still be a Donk.

Punisher
06-11-2009, 12:16 PM
In the AFC Championship game, it all happened out on the field. It wasn't anything Coyer did or didn't do.

And Jake choked that game away with four turnovers. He played everybody's hearts right out of their chest.

If Jake wasn't such a choke artist in the playoffs, none of this would even be a discussion.Jake was/is his own worst enemy.

He was trying to bring us back against a Really Good D,that's why he had those 4 turnovers.If Coyer just didn't get out Coach we would had Run the ball more which was our Strength,not Pass the ball almost every down.

Coyer Choked more than Plummer

bronco militia
06-11-2009, 12:19 PM
Coyer Choked more than Plummer

ain't that the truth

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 12:27 PM
btw, that question was from Nick Webster..

Nate's brother?

If so does he have problems like Nate? Does he work as a bicycle messenger and have his helmet fly off during deliveries? Does he work construction and have his hard hat fly 6 feet off of his head during lunch?

Does he dance when he clocks out?

questions

Gcver2ver3
06-11-2009, 12:31 PM
Our defense was smoke and mirrors for a long time. Certainly better than what we ended up with after flipping QBs, but we fell apart routinely in our biggest tests.

An argument could have been made that both sides of the ball needed improvement, but there is little doubt that we failed the defensive side of the ball miserably, going from at least a serviceable defense to one of the worst in the league.

And, time marches on. New staff, new players and new hope...

in a nutshell you are correct, without question...

defense was Shanny's failure, not offense...

i was just saying that plummer was benched due to our offensive struggles, not our defense (at the time)...and as i also had stated, we later found out our defense was a fraud...

bronco610
06-11-2009, 12:38 PM
in a nutshell you are correct, without question...

defense was Shanny's failure, not offense...

i was just saying that plummer was benched due to our offensive struggles, not our defense (at the time)...and as i also had stated, we later found out our defense was a fraud...

Actually I stated it first, but you are ignoring trhe real issue here....The Font!!!!!

Spider
06-11-2009, 12:41 PM
We could have had Ed Reed ...........

fdf
06-11-2009, 12:42 PM
We would have still sucked at defense because Shanny ignored it.
And that font is definetly bad.

It's not fair to say he ignored it. He just did a terrible job selecting players and coaches on D.

bronco610
06-11-2009, 12:48 PM
It's not fair to say he ignored it. He just did a terrible job selecting players and coaches on D.

Fair enough...... but still the point here is how bad the Font is in the thread starter because Shanny, his defense, Plummer and Cutler have been hashed out and we have already picked sides. Bronco Fans vs Bandwagoners ;D

TDmvp
06-11-2009, 12:52 PM
We could have had Ed Reed ...........

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8416/17896606.jpg


Ban Spider LOL ...

Punisher
06-11-2009, 12:55 PM
<table id="sortable_table_id_0" class="wikitable sortable sortable" style="width: 100%;"><tbody><tr><td align="center">19</td> <td>Denver Broncos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos)</td> <td>Ashley Lelie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Lelie)</td> <td>Wide Receiver</td> <td>Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Warriors_football)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">20</td> <td>Green Bay Packers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers) <sup>(from Seattle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks))</sup></td> <td bgcolor="#ffcc00">Javon Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javon_Walker)</td> <td>Wide Receiver</td> <td>Florida State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Seminoles_football)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">21</td> <td>New England Patriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots) <sup>(from Tampa Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers) through Oakland and Washington)</sup></td> <td>Daniel Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Graham)</td> <td>Tight End</td> <td>Colorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Buffaloes_football)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">22</td> <td>New York Jets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Jets)</td> <td>Bryan Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Thomas)</td> <td>Defensive End</td> <td>UAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Alabama_at_Birmingham)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">23</td> <td>Oakland Raiders</td> <td>Napoleon Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Harris)</td> <td>Linebacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker)</td> <td>Northwestern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Wildcats_football)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">24</td> <td>Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens)</td> <td bgcolor="#ffcc00">Ed Reed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Reed)</td> <td>Strong Safety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_Safety)</td> <td>Miami (FL)</td></tr></tbody></table>

Punisher
06-11-2009, 12:59 PM
We passed on Westbrook and Larry Foote that draft too...

Spider
06-11-2009, 01:02 PM
It's not fair to say he ignored it. He just did a terrible job selecting players and coaches on D.

hmmmmm , very not bad ;D
But yeah from Dale Carter to I hop .......

Spider
06-11-2009, 01:02 PM
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8416/17896606.jpg


Ban Spider LOL ...

LOL , I just wanted to get an Ed Reed Jab in .........Been awhile ;D

Gcver2ver3
06-11-2009, 01:08 PM
Actually I stated it first, but you are ignoring trhe real issue here....The Font!!!!!

i know i'm splitting hairs here, but i was saying that i was the 1st to mention that our defense started out seemingly strong in 06 only to fade to it's true colors later...

u just said the Broncos D sucked...

but with that said....yeah man what's up with that font?...

Taco John
06-11-2009, 01:14 PM
He was trying to bring us back against a Really Good D,that's why he had those 4 turnovers.

Yeah, how about the very next game - the first game of the season against the Rams when the Defense bailed Jake out of probably his worst career performance - though he gave himself a lot of competition that season for that designation.

Shanahan drafted Cutler because he recognized what some of you don't seem to grasp: Jake was busted. That AFC Championship game was his defining career moment. Four turnovers. Whoever you want to blame, Jake knows the score. He knows that the football was in his hands, and then in the hands of the opponent four times in a game. He knew he blew it in the biggest game of his career. I hate that these facts are true as much as anyone else here, but they are.

Did you see what happened to the Raiders organization after they lost to the Buccaneers? Or what happened to Griese when he took that shot that dislocated his shoulder? That's what happened to Jake.

Sitting here and trying to sift through the guys ashes is the most pointless act of futility that I can imagine. Shanahan was going nowhere with Plummer. Neither was Gruden. Nobody was.

So yeah. Maybe it was everybody else's fault that day-- but the work he put in after that make the point irrelevant. He cost himself his job. He didn't make Cutler outplay him for it. He just handed it over, bummed out all season. He had retired already. He was just going through the motions.

Spider
06-11-2009, 01:16 PM
if we had gotten Ed Reed , we wouldnt be reading that font ...........Just saying

TDmvp
06-11-2009, 01:20 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/Lord_Xalen/ufail.jpg

Punisher
06-11-2009, 01:28 PM
Yeah, how about the very next game - the first game of the season against the Rams when the Defense bailed Jake out of probably his worst career performance - though he gave himself a lot of competition that season for that designation.

Shanahan drafted Cutler because he recognized what some of you don't seem to grasp: Jake was busted. That AFC Championship game was his defining career moment. Four turnovers. Whoever you want to blame, Jake knows the score. He knows that the football was in his hands, and then in the hands of the opponent four times in a game. He knew he blew it in the biggest game of his career. I hate that these facts are true as much as anyone else here, but they are.

Did you see what happened to the Raiders organization after they lost to the Buccaneers? Or what happened to Griese when he took that shot that dislocated his shoulder? That's what happened to Jake.

Sitting here and trying to sift through the guys ashes is the most pointless act of futility that I can imagine. Shanahan was going nowhere with Plummer. Neither was Gruden. Nobody was.

So yeah. Maybe it was everybody else's fault that day-- but the work he put in after that make the point irrelevant. He cost himself his job. He didn't make Cutler outplay him for it. He just handed it over, bummed out all season. He had retired already. He was just going through the motions.

The Broncos played bad the 1st game almost every year besides last year,Plus he played great VS the Colts in week 8.And i believe if we would of kept Plummer the whole year that we would of went to the playoffs in who knows what would of happened after that.

Shanahan was going nowhere with Plummer.
Shanny was a game away from a Super Bowl with Plummer.

Did you see what happened to the Raiders organization after they lost to the Buccaneers?
The Raiders Played bad because there Fran QB got hurt the following year,but I'm not sticking up for them...

gyldenlove
06-11-2009, 01:37 PM
If we hadn't drafted Cutler and kept Plummer, we would have Plummer. Seems perfectly simple to me.

fdf
06-11-2009, 01:39 PM
So yeah. Maybe it was everybody else's fault that day-- but the work he put in after that make the point irrelevant. He cost himself his job. He didn't make Cutler outplay him for it. He just handed it over, bummed out all season. He had retired already. He was just going through the motions.

Good post. Jake did good for us for a while. But he was awful after that game. Of course, the long disintegration of the D also became obvious about halfway thru that season also. Offense has improved some since then. But by and large, the D's disintegration continued unstopped thru the end of last season.

Popps
06-11-2009, 02:12 PM
We've been over this a million times.

John Elway probably couldn't have beaten the Steelers in that 05 AFFCG.

Anyone who thinks that's incorrect needs to pop in the LAST home playoff game where we couldn't stop the opposing team all day. We had a similar game against the Jaguars that some of you may remember.

When your defense doesn't stop a SINGLE DRIVE IN THE FIRST HALF, you lost the game, especially when you're facing a team with a real NFL championship caliber defense like the Steelers.

Shanny thought he could do defense with smoke and mirrors and every time we had a big test, our defense was decimated. (Indy, Indy, Pitt, etc.)

So, instead of taking the defense seriously, he got cute with quarterbacks... and cost himself his job.

It's that simple. Build a championship caliber defense if you want to win in Dec/Jan.

Northman
06-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Yet, McD still hasnt addressed the Dline.

Pontius Pirate
06-11-2009, 04:39 PM
Take Jake Plummer at his very last start, and stack him up with Kyle Orton right now: who would you rather have?

TonyR
06-11-2009, 07:06 PM
Take Jake Plummer at his very last start, and stack him up with Kyle Orton right now: who would you rather have?

Great question, I was going to propose the same thing but you beat me to it.

I personally think they're comparable ability wise. Orton will have better talent around him on offense, Plummer had a better defense. This team won't be as good as the 2004 or 2005 teams, but with a little improvement on defense I don't think it's that crazy to suggest 8-8 as possible (and better if not for the brutal schedule).

ward63
06-11-2009, 07:10 PM
I know we could have had Ed Reed in that draft but kind of odd we got or had the next two players after Lelie

Taco John
06-11-2009, 08:22 PM
John Elway probably couldn't have beaten the Steelers in that 05 AFFCG.




Sure he could have. All he'd have to do is throw touchdowns instead of interceptions and take care of his side of the ball. Jake didn't do that in ANY playoff game, including the single one we won with Plummer under center. Jake simply didn't take care of the ball when it mattered the most. That was his problem, no matter how loudly his boyfriends around here want to cry about the defense.

If Jake had the guts to take care of the football and handle big games, he might be a Champion today.

Pick Six
06-11-2009, 08:56 PM
This guessing game is quite interesting. Would Plummer have whined about a RUMOURED trade and subsequently DEMAND to be traded? We'll never know. Plummer was portrayed as the "everyman's quarterback", as evidenced by his choice of cars. However, it DID seem like he quit midway through Cutler's rookie year. I'm not sure I could venture a guess as to what Plummer would have done in Cutler's situation...

Taco John
06-11-2009, 09:08 PM
If his reaction to the Broncos drafting a quarterback is any indication...

Pick Six
06-11-2009, 11:13 PM
If his reaction to the Broncos drafting a quarterback is any indication...

That's exactly why I think Plummer MAY have had a similar reaction as Cutler...

epicSocialism4tw
06-11-2009, 11:47 PM
In the AFC Championship game, it all happened out on the field. It wasn't anything Coyer did or didn't do.

And Jake choked that game away with four turnovers. He played everybody's hearts right out of their chest.

If Jake wasn't such a choke artist in the playoffs, none of this would even be a discussion. Jake was/is his own worst enemy. He knew it too. It's why he gave up on football.

Thats just not true.

The Steelers took whatever they wanted from our defense.

Domonique Foxworth:
http://www.ganmsafety.com/images/traffic_cone.gif

epicSocialism4tw
06-11-2009, 11:48 PM
Yet, McD still hasnt addressed the Dline.

Aside fromt the Cutler debacle, this is the most disappointing thing about this offseason.

watermock
06-11-2009, 11:55 PM
http://www.ganmsafety.com/images/traffic_cone.gif

DWill tried to play.

Besides, our pass rush sucked.

BroncoInSkinland
06-12-2009, 05:39 AM
Plummer forced Shanahans hand on the Cutler situation with his play. I was one of the biggest supporters of Jake. I wanted Cutler to sit that entire season and learn, and wonder now if it wouldn't have worked out better for us if he had, but Jake was choking away a winning season. I changed my stand on that situation during the Kansas City game that year. Jake was a good player, and had all the heart you could ever hope for, but Shanahan wanted to go another direction, he wanted a franchise Qb, he got who he thought was his guy and ran with it.

If we handn't drafted Jay, and had instead drafted Defensive linemen, given Shanahans track record with such players we would probably be in the same situation we are right now. A question mark at Quarterback, multiple questions along the line, and a great deal of uncertainty for our upcoming season record. Of course we would have done it three years ago, and many of those quetion marks would be resolving themselves right now for this upcoming season. With Shanahan behind a defensive draft, I think we would be right back at square one. Shanahan drafted for HIS style of football, he got the offensive players he thought could make it work and went out and did it. I hate the lack of defnse in his drafts, and the failures when he did go that route, but it is what it is. Regardless, Shanahan and Plummer have something in common that we should remember to thank them for, one heck of a winning record. What we are doing now may forward the team and actually produce a long range solution, but it is just as likely that we will be looking back and wondering if 6 winning season compared to 1 losing season was really all that bad.

TonyR
06-12-2009, 05:47 AM
Aside fromt the Cutler debacle, this is the most disappointing thing about this offseason.

Agreed, although I think there were prevailing unrealistic expectations about the front 7 overhaul.

TonyR
06-12-2009, 05:56 AM
...but Jake was choking away a winning season.

I agree, however I think it's also fair to point out that Jake went 7-4 and Jay went 2-3. And then in both '07 and '08 Jay "participated" in the Broncos going 2-4 down the stretch, again "choking away a winning season".

BroncoInSkinland
06-12-2009, 06:13 AM
I agree, however I think it's also fair to point out that Jake went 7-4 and Jay went 2-3. And then in both '07 and '08 Jay "participated" in the Broncos going 2-4 down the stretch, again "choking away a winning season".

Fair enough, and Jake WAS doing what he always did, winning ugly. Overall I do think it is better than losing pretty like Jay did. But from what I saw in the games Jake was being far more of a contributor to the losing effort than Jay. It always looked to me like Jake was part of the problem, while Jay sometimes looked like the solution, and only sometimes looked like the problem. That was my perception of the games though, the stat lines say differently.

bpc
06-12-2009, 06:19 AM
Oh god, it's like republicans and democrats in here and of course, the Cutler hate militia is defending Plummer at all costs.

Lets be honest, Plummer sucked. He benefited from a ultra aggressive scheme on defense by Coyer which pitched a bunch of shutouts under his watch. The other part of the success was Shanny and his running game. He did not LIGHT up opponents, he merely managed the game after Shanahan took away a lot of his ability to throw the ball on 3rd downs after the 2004's TO fest.

Yes Plummer had some heart and tenacity, great things to root for on the field but as a ball player, he lacked savy, football smarts and for the most part played like a buffoon. (see left handed INT) He was attracted to idiot throws like a magnet.

Shanahan knew moving forward what most seem to be forgetting... during 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, etc, you were going against Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and a host of other quality QB's. These guys are going to score points and if you are a handicapped offense with Plummer at the helm and virtually no way to throw the ball if you fall behind, you're gonna lose. You're gonna have to find a guy who can play toe to toe with them in a shootout. Hence the reason why we drafted Jay Cutler and for the most part, was easily passing that test and just finishing his maturation process. It was not without bumps but Manning's road wasn't either and it was what it was.

Lets all try not to be football stupid and fluff up Jake for the sake of bashing Jay. Jake was a feel good story but a limited one and the only time he really ever did much is when the HC stripped his ability to play the position the way he wanted to. That's a bad sign.

Left handed INT's, choke jobs on the road against far inferior opponents and of course, his inability to win a playoff game were the hallmark of Jake which just happened to coincide during a time when Shanahan's running game was destroying people and our defense had some talent and was playing at a high level. Even when we won against the Pats in Denver, Jake had nothing to do with that. Game manager... don't turnover the ball. Sauerbrun had more impact plays that game vs. Jake. QFT.

Jake had a great career, we should all be thankful, I hope he takes credit for a bunch of wins but Denver would never have won another playoff game/super bowl with him at the helm.

vancejohnson82
06-12-2009, 07:00 AM
Oh god, it's like republicans and democrats in here and of course, the Cutler hate militia is defending Plummer at all costs.

Lets be honest, Plummer sucked. He benefited from a ultra aggressive scheme on defense by Coyer which pitched a bunch of shutouts under his watch. The other part of the success was Shanny and his running game. He did not LIGHT up opponents, he merely managed the game after Shanahan took away a lot of his ability to throw the ball on 3rd downs after the 2004's TO fest.

Yes Plummer had some heart and tenacity, great things to root for on the field but as a ball player, he lacked savy, football smarts and for the most part played like a buffoon. (see left handed INT) He was attracted to idiot throws like a magnet.

Shanahan knew moving forward what most seem to be forgetting... during 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, etc, you were going against Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and a host of other quality QB's. These guys are going to score points and if you are a handicapped offense with Plummer at the helm and virtually no way to throw the ball if you fall behind, you're gonna lose. You're gonna have to find a guy who can play toe to toe with them in a shootout. Hence the reason why we drafted Jay Cutler and for the most part, was easily passing that test and just finishing his maturation process. It was not without bumps but Manning's road wasn't either and it was what it was.

Lets all try not to be football stupid and fluff up Jake for the sake of bashing Jay. Jake was a feel good story but a limited one and the only time he really ever did much is when the HC stripped his ability to play the position the way he wanted to. That's a bad sign.

Left handed INT's, choke jobs on the road against far inferior opponents and of course, his inability to win a playoff game were the hallmark of Jake which just happened to coincide during a time when Shanahan's running game was destroying people and our defense had some talent and was playing at a high level. Even when we won against the Pats in Denver, Jake had nothing to do with that. Game manager... don't turnover the ball. Sauerbrun had more impact plays that game vs. Jake. QFT.

Jake had a great career, we should all be thankful, I hope he takes credit for a bunch of wins but Denver would never have won another playoff game/super bowl with him at the helm.

I dont really know where you got this perception from..but the defense was far from "lights out" under Coyer...

Plummer routinely put the team over 20 points...something Jay can't say

bpc
06-12-2009, 07:55 AM
In 2005 we finished with an average defensive ranking, around 15th in the NFL but we were 2nd in rush defense and 4th in pts allowed average. We also finished 6th in the NFL with 20 INT's, and 7th in FF's with 29.

Are you speaking about Plummer putting us over 20 pts in 2005? We averaged 24 PPG. This was greatly bolstered by the fact that Mike Anderson has 13 total TD's and Tatum had 8 and both combined for about 2000 yds rushing that season.

vancejohnson82
06-12-2009, 08:04 AM
In 2005 we finished with an average defensive ranking, around 15th in the NFL but we were 2nd in rush defense and 4th in pts allowed average. We also finished 6th in the NFL with 20 INT's, and 7th in FF's with 29.

Are you speaking about Plummer putting us over 20 pts in 2005? We averaged 24 PPG. This was greatly bolstered by the fact that Mike Anderson has 13 total TD's and Tatum had 8 and both combined for about 2000 yds rushing that season.

I'm not going to defend Plummer wholeheartedly, because I thought we made the switch at ABOUT the right time....but the running game was helped immsensely by the play action and the bootleg that plummer was able to run

it really helped the backside holes open up and the defense could never fully commit to the run

the defense had some good games in 2005...i was at the Jets game when we shut them out in Denver...however, they had Vinny Testaverde at QB...we also held the chargers to 3 points in the finale...those kind of numbers really help out the PPG

i liked the Coyer defense...problem was that you can't run it against a spread formation with a great QB ---- ie. The Colts.

Both sides of the ball were good that year, it wasnt the defense carrying Plulmmer

elsid13
06-12-2009, 08:10 AM
I'm not going to defend Plummer wholeheartedly, because I thought we made the switch at ABOUT the right time....but the running game was helped immsensely by the play action and the bootleg that plummer was able to run

it really helped the backside holes open up and the defense could never fully commit to the run

the defense had some good games in 2005...i was at the Jets game when we shut them out in Denver...however, they had Vinny Testaverde at QB...we also held the chargers to 3 points in the finale...those kind of numbers really help out the PPG

i liked the Coyer defense...problem was that you can't run it against a spread formation with a great QB ---- ie. The Colts.

Both sides of the ball were good that year, it wasnt the defense carrying Plulmmer

One could argue that argue that the play action and bootleg were only successful because the running game was effective.

LonghornBronco
06-12-2009, 08:19 AM
I doubt any of these three would have improved our D all that much...

<TABLE class=data-table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" summary="This table summarizes the NFL Draft History by year." border=0><TBODY><TR class="tbdy1 alt"><TD>


12
</TD><TD>Haloti Ngata (http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937) </TD><TD>DT</TD><TD>Oregon</TD><TD>Baltimore Ravens (http://www.nfl.com/teams/baltimoreravens/profile?team=BAL) </TD></TR><TR class=tbdy1><TD>13</TD><TD>Kamerion Wimbley (http://www.nfl.com/players/kamerionwimbley/profile?id=WIM511051) </TD><TD>OLB</TD><TD>Florida State</TD><TD>Cleveland Browns (http://www.nfl.com/teams/clevelandbrowns/profile?team=CLE) </TD></TR><TR class="tbdy1 alt"><TD>14</TD><TD>Brodrick Bunkley (http://www.nfl.com/players/brodrickbunkley/profile?id=BUN459212) </TD><TD>DT</TD><TD>Florida State</TD><TD>Philadelphia Eagles (http://www.nfl.com/teams/philadelphiaeagles/profile?team=PHI) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Punisher
06-12-2009, 08:27 AM
I doubt any of these three would have improved our D all that much...

<TABLE class=data-table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" summary="This table summarizes the NFL Draft History by year." border=0><TBODY><TR class="tbdy1 alt"><TD>


12
</TD><TD>Haloti Ngata (http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937) </TD><TD>DT</TD><TD>Oregon</TD><TD>Baltimore Ravens (http://www.nfl.com/teams/baltimoreravens/profile?team=BAL) </TD></TR><TR class=tbdy1><TD>13</TD><TD>Kamerion Wimbley (http://www.nfl.com/players/kamerionwimbley/profile?id=WIM511051) </TD><TD>OLB</TD><TD>Florida State</TD><TD>Cleveland Browns (http://www.nfl.com/teams/clevelandbrowns/profile?team=CLE) </TD></TR><TR class="tbdy1 alt"><TD>14</TD><TD>Brodrick Bunkley (http://www.nfl.com/players/brodrickbunkley/profile?id=BUN459212) </TD><TD>DT</TD><TD>Florida State</TD><TD>Philadelphia Eagles (http://www.nfl.com/teams/philadelphiaeagles/profile?team=PHI) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ngata is a top 5 DT and one of the NFL bests NT

LonghornBronco
06-12-2009, 08:37 AM
I agree he is good, but I doubt we return to the AFC championship game with Plummer and Ngata as a rook.

Even now he is not worth two firsts a third and a starting QB, no.

vancejohnson82
06-12-2009, 08:41 AM
One could argue that argue that the play action and bootleg were only successful because the running game was effective.

most definitely...but it was a one hand washing the other type of set up, in my opinion

a BIG problem with it was that we were running that offense for 3 years and when Cutler stepped in Shanahan ripped it apart and tried to create a vertical game to utilize his arm....it was fun to watch but wildly inconsistent
and Shanahan did a poor job at transitioning the game plan

BroncoInSkinland
06-12-2009, 08:46 AM
I agree he is good, but I doubt we return to the AFC championship game with Plummer and Ngata as a rook.

Even now he is not worth two firsts a third and a starting QB, no.

See this is one of my biggest problems, even though I bitch about the draft a lot, people way over value what a pick is. Lets try this...Ngata with 3 years experience and Plummer (who probably wouldn't have left if it weren't for the Cutler situation) or Ayers, Alphonso Smith, and Orton? Call Plummer/Orton a wash and you are left with a dominant starting NT vs a OLB/DE tweener and an undersized ballhawking CB either of whom could be busts come September. For a cornerstone to a very effective 3-4 defense, I think you have to go with the NT.

LonghornBronco
06-12-2009, 08:51 AM
Well lets make it simple it boils down to who gives the Broncos a better chance to win. Cutler vs Ngata. I think it's a no-brainer.

BroncoInSkinland
06-12-2009, 08:58 AM
Hey, I loved Cutler while he was here, but your two firsts, a third and a starting QB vs Ngata was a little misleading, and I like strong d-line as well.

fdf
06-12-2009, 09:33 AM
See this is one of my biggest problems, even though I b**** about the draft a lot, people way over value what a pick is. Lets try this...Ngata with 3 years experience and Plummer (who probably wouldn't have left if it weren't for the Cutler situation) or Ayers, Alphonso Smith, and Orton? Call Plummer/Orton a wash and you are left with a dominant starting NT vs a OLB/DE tweener and an undersized ballhawking CB either of whom could be busts come September. For a cornerstone to a very effective 3-4 defense, I think you have to go with the NT.

Of course, we weren't running a 3-4 then. But this is the internet . . .

Shanahan tried to fix the DL with high-priced free agents and then a really bad 2007 draft. Nothing worked out. Then Al Wilson got injured, a decent cornerback got shot, and we traded our only good DT (Warren) and here we are. The Denver D is a big project that isn't going to get fixed in a year. I sure hope one of the UDFA's DT's works out. But DT's usually aren't productive for a couple of years--even the good ones.

My preference was to fix the center of the DL first. Management chose to go UDFA for DT instead of what I would have preferred--big dramatic high draft picks pointed to the center of the line. But I'm not going to scream and tear my hair out (such as it is) about it.

I hope something actually breaks our way on D this year. We certainly ought to have some good breaks coming, given the way things have gone over the past several years.

And now it looks like Marshall is out the door. Sucks.

BroncoInSkinland
06-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Of course, we weren't running a 3-4 then. But this is the internet . . .

Shanahan tried to fix the DL with high-priced free agents and then a really bad 2007 draft. Nothing worked out. Then Al Wilson got injured, a decent cornerback got shot, and we traded our only good DT (Warren) and here we are. The Denver D is a big project that isn't going to get fixed in a year. I sure hope one of the UDFA's DT's works out. But DT's usually aren't productive for a couple of years--even the good ones.

My preference was to fix the center of the DL first. Management chose to go UDFA for DT instead of what I would have preferred--big dramatic high draft picks pointed to the center of the line. But I'm not going to scream and tear my hair out (such as it is) about it.

I hope something actually breaks our way on D this year. We certainly ought to have some good breaks coming, given the way things have gone over the past several years.

And now it looks like Marshall is out the door. Sucks.


Understood, and further, hindsight (especially on drafts/trades) is 20/20. it's easy to say Ngata now, but I wasn't looking at it seriously at that point in time. I was just saying the 2 1st, a 3rd and a starting QB vs Ngata wasn't exactly a fair assessment of the situation, and that in general people love draft picks, while I love the players those draft picks produce more.

elsid13
06-12-2009, 09:56 AM
most definitely...but it was a one hand washing the other type of set up, in my opinion

a BIG problem with it was that we were running that offense for 3 years and when Cutler stepped in Shanahan ripped it apart and tried to create a vertical game to utilize his arm....it was fun to watch but wildly inconsistent
and Shanahan did a poor job at transitioning the game plan

I that it was more a failure of Shanahan, Bates and Turner of developing a good running game. Then trying to put to much emphasis on the passing game. In many ways the worse thing that happened was signing of Henry and failure to find that RB that would have been constant threat in running attack. I would have rather gone with Mike Bell that year bring that POS Henry. Especial when they could of paired Bell with Young as CPB.

Pontius Pirate
06-12-2009, 11:04 AM
Let's look at the ratings these guys had with their teams:

In his four years with the Broncos, Jake's rating (from first to last year) was: 91.2, 84.5, 90.2, and 68.8

In his three years with the Broncos, Jay's rating (from first to last year) was: 88.5, 88.1, 86.0

In his three years with the Bears, Kyle's rating (from first to last year) was: 59.7, 73.5, and 79.6

I think this all boils down to the Jake haters selectively remembering ONLY his playoff loss and his last year with the team.

Taco John
06-12-2009, 11:15 AM
I think this all boils down to the Jake haters selectively remembering ALL OF his playoff losses and his last few years with the team.

FYP

Pontius Pirate
06-12-2009, 11:21 AM
FYP

You should work for Fox News.

vancejohnson82
06-12-2009, 11:53 AM
FYP

what does FYP mean?

i learn new abbreviations all the time on this board

Beantown Bronco
06-12-2009, 11:58 AM
what does FYP mean?

i learn new abbreviations all the time on this board

fixed your post

TonyR
06-12-2009, 12:57 PM
FYP

Yes, and Jay was UNSTOPPABLE in the playoffs! Oh, wait...