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bpc
06-09-2009, 10:46 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html

8th overall behind a bunch of super bowl champions and Philly. We definitely had it rough under Shanahan considering he didn't have a franchise QB at his disposal until he landed Cutler.

Oh what could have been...

BroncoBuff
06-09-2009, 10:51 PM
GLORY COLORADO.


That is all.

lex
06-09-2009, 11:04 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html

8th overall behind a bunch of super bowl champions and Philly. We definitely had it rough under Shanahan considering he didn't have a franchise QB at his disposal until he landed Cutler.

Oh what could have been...

And going by regular season winning %, we had the 5th best...even when turning over the roster in a very short time and horrific drafts up to 2006.

Popps
06-09-2009, 11:11 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html

8th overall behind a bunch of super bowl champions and Philly. We definitely had it rough under Shanahan considering he didn't have a franchise QB at his disposal until he landed Cutler.

Oh what could have been...

What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.

LonghornBronco
06-09-2009, 11:14 PM
8th sucks, I want to be 1st

bpc
06-09-2009, 11:27 PM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.

I don't buy that the next three years were going to be mediocre. I hated Slowik but one must argue that the talent he had on his side of the ball wasn't that great. 30 million this offseason to spend on free agents and a deep draft class of 4-3 DL/10th overall pick could have helped boost this bad defense to a respectable rating along with providing us a quality young runner to pair with Cutler, something he didn't have the last two years while he developed.

Cutler did the best he could with a defensive liability hanging onto him.

I don't agree that Shanahan put everything into the offense. Tim Crowder/Jarvis Moss flopped. We also had a crap load of injuries on defense and career/life ending incidents that happened to Al Wilson and Darent Williams, two of the spark plugs and leaders of our units. Ultimately we ended up having so much turnover, it's incredible that Shanahan managed to keep up by finishing at or close to .500

Cutler was the only reason we didn't finish 2-14 last season or the year before.

Careful what you wish for with a new coach. 5th in the NFL in winning percentage to the great unknown with a QB guru who has done nothing this offseason but show off his inexperience when the media pressure clamped down on him.

I'm hopeful of McDaniels but I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal collapse on top of him. I hope I'm wrong.

footstepsfrom#27
06-09-2009, 11:33 PM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.
Even for you, this is rank stupidity.

But I guess this is an example of your "positive" approach huh?

Popps
06-10-2009, 12:22 AM
I don't buy that the next three years were going to be mediocre. I hated Slowik but one must argue that the talent he had on his side of the ball wasn't that great. .

But, you could argue that any real DC would have done better with what he had to work with. He was a disaster, and Shanahan made it clear... he was coming back.

Can you imagine going into this season with that guy running the D again? You're telling me we were going to avoid mediocrity with that guy coordinating our D?

As for the talent, Shanahan called the shots. After one of the worst defensive seasons we've ever had, his answer to solving the problems was Boss Bailey and Nikko Sucksthemostest.

Honestly? It was going to be different this year?

It amazes me that when faced with the ridiculous scenario above, some people can muster up optimism, yet they can find NONE to muster up for our current defense, which clearly looks much better on paper.



Cutler did the best he could with a defensive liability hanging onto him.
.

Cutler shat the bed with the season on the line against the Bills. Great QBs win that game by themselves.

Rivers wasn't getting a lot of help against K.C., but the team got a break and Rivers pounced on every opportunity.


I don't agree that Shanahan put everything into the offense. Tim Crowder/Jarvis Moss flopped. We also had a crap load of injuries on defense and career/life ending incidents that happened to Al Wilson and Darent Williams, two of the spark plugs and leaders of our units. Ultimately we ended up having so much turnover, it's incredible that Shanahan managed to keep up by finishing at or close to .500 .

Shanahan was a phenomenal game-planner/game-day coach. He was pretty bad at being a GM. We were as bad as any team in the league in free agency over the past decade.

You're can be impressed with Shanahan's coaching, but only because he had to coach around so many had situations that HE HIMSELF manufactured.

It's like a guy lighting his own house on fire and making it out alive. I guess it's impressive that he made it out alive, but maybe his decision-making wasn't great leading up to that moment.


Cutler was the only reason we didn't finish 2-14 last season or the year before. .

Yea, well... I keep hearing about the drunken messiah, but last I looked... he was at the helm for our only 3-year stretch without making the playoffs since the 70s, and the franchise went directly into the ****ter from the time he took over.

All his fault? Of course not. But, maybe he's not the "franchise" QB some people think he is. Again, "franchise" QBs can manage not to poop themselves at home against the friggin' Bills with the playoffs on the line.



Careful what you wish for with a new coach. 5th in the NFL in winning percentage to the great unknown with a QB guru who has done nothing this offseason but show off his inexperience when the media pressure clamped down on him.

Chris, does he look like a guy who gives a **** about "media pressure?" Honestly. You have the wrong dude. McDaniels will succeed or he won't, but that guy doesn't give a rat's ass about piss-ant reporters fussing with each other.

Reminds me of the last young, fiery coach we had who came in without any sort of proven track record as a head coach.... and yet, had a "my-way" approach. That last coach built a team concept that was a resounding success.

Our current coach looks to be attempting the same thing.

Popps
06-10-2009, 12:23 AM
Even for you, this is rank stupidity.

But I guess this is an example of your "positive" approach huh?

Oh look, the OLC leader is here to represent!

http://brainfitforlife.com/blog/uploaded/debbie_downer.jpg

You keep clinging to the past there, sport. Maybe you'll wake up tomorrow and Shanahan will be coach again, and we can go .500 for the rest of our lives.

Wheeeeeeeee!!!!

Hulamau
06-10-2009, 12:56 AM
The fact is Shanny had lost the fire and focus he had in the first years of his regime and simply could no longer inspire and fire up the troops. That was more at the core of our meidocre performances when the chips were on the line than anything else.
He could get them up for the first few games each season, but in the late years he was not able to get the players to dig down beyond them selves and play championship type ball under adversity later in the season.


he put most of his focus on Cutler as savior and his decision to keep Slowik on for another year was grounds enough to realize not much was going to change.

With a good break maybe he reclaims that passion and innovation he once had, but he needed to go.

Kaylore
06-10-2009, 01:29 AM
I don't buy that the next three years were going to be mediocre. I hated Slowik but one must argue that the talent he had on his side of the ball wasn't that great. 30 million this offseason to spend on free agents and a deep draft class of 4-3 DL/10th overall pick could have helped boost this bad defense to a respectable rating along with providing us a quality young runner to pair with Cutler, something he didn't have the last two years while he developed.

Cutler did the best he could with a defensive liability hanging onto him.

I don't agree that Shanahan put everything into the offense. Tim Crowder/Jarvis Moss flopped. We also had a crap load of injuries on defense and career/life ending incidents that happened to Al Wilson and Darent Williams, two of the spark plugs and leaders of our units. Ultimately we ended up having so much turnover, it's incredible that Shanahan managed to keep up by finishing at or close to .500
I think you're in complete denial about how bad the team was and how hopeless the situation on defense was going to be under Shanahan. Mike killed the golden goose when he axed Coyer. Here are Shanahan's defensive rankings for his time here:

Points000Yards
1995 17 15
1996 7 4
1997 6 5
1998 8 11
1999 11 7
2000 23 24 - Greg Robinson Fired
2001 21 8
2002 15 6 - Ray Rhodes fired
2003 9 4 - Larry Coyer era begins
2004 9 4
2005 3 15
2006 8 14 - Larry Coyer era ends
2007 28 19 - Bates
2008 30 29 - Slowik

This offense went to hell once Gary Kubiak went to Houston. Before Kubiak we always had our points in the top ten. After Kubiak we never cracked the top half of the league again. Post Kubiak our winning record was exactly .500. And our special teams has been in the bottom of the league for over a decade.

But if that wasn't enough, how was getting 52 points hung on us by the Chargers on national tv? That was more than they hung on us when we lost at home the year before 3-41 or on the road 3-23. That's to say nothing of getting raped by the Patriots on MNF 7-41 or the freaking LIONS 7-44!

This little quote is priceless:
30 million this offseason to spend on free agents and a deep draft class of 4-3 DL/10th overall pick could have helped boost this bad defense to a respectable rating along with providing us a quality young runner to pair with Cutler
Yeah! That's it! Just throw money at the problem and in one offseason it would go away! Why didn't we try that? Oh yeah, WE DID!!! Every offseason we signed everyone and their mom and threw a bunch of draft picks at the problem and it failed horribly. I love your comment about Moss and Crowder not panning out like Shanahan should get sympathy for that because they didn't when he drafted them and traded up to acquire them in the first place. That's not something we should give him a pass on, it's an indictment.


And this idea that with the money and picks we could fixed things enough is hilarious. Tell me, who would we have brought in and drafted under Shanahan that would overwhelmed the defense with so much talent that even Slowik wouldn't be able to make it suck? Who is getting this 30 million of the available players this year and who are we drafting that magically make the defense so talented even Bob Slowik, modern history's worst defensive coordinator, could not mess it up? Even if we brought anyone in, our coaching staff was so gloriously inept that anyone with any talent would have been unable to develop it at all!

And let's not forget that Slowik was Shanahan's guy. He proudly declared he would be back next season after we got embarrassed on national TV and that there would be "NO CHANGE" in the defense. This after being the first team to blow a three game division lead with the tree games to spare because we couldn't beat the crappy Buffalo Bills in our own house.

Shanahan is gone, and it's a good thing for both parties. Shanahan had lost perspective and the team was horrible. Middle of the road offense in scoring, worst defense in the league, worst defense in team history, historic records for worsts in the franchise and NFL history, horrible special teams that never got better.

The team didn't just need "a guy to fix the defense and we'd be fine". The team needed to be gutted and started anew. The entire culture and paradigm needed shifting and it has begun. Will it work? I think it might but no one really knows yet. However something new had to be done and that we're at least trying that is a step in the right direction. No more home loses. No more national embarrassment beat downs. No more finesse teams. No more football stupid players ala Jamie Winborn, or guys made of glass that someone linger on the team ala Nate Jackson. We're moving on, and I'm glad.

Killericon
06-10-2009, 03:10 AM
We also had a crap load of injuries on defense and career/life ending incidents that happened to Al Wilson and Darent Williams, two of the spark plugs and leaders of our units.

Darrent Williams' death was a tragic loss, and it should never be minimized, but that doesn't mean we should exxagerate him as a player. He was never a leader or a spark plug.

BroncoInSkinland
06-10-2009, 04:02 AM
Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

But I thought McDaniels had all these great offensive tools, and that our offense won't decline without Cutler because of all the surrounding talent that is still here. I thought Cutler was going to suck this year because he has no supporting cast in Chicago? I guess with McDaniels there is talent, with Shanahan there was a one-man offensive show. Kinda like how with Shanahan if we had gone with a bunch of third string cast offs and UDFA's we would have been ignoring the line, but with McDaniels we have somehow improved.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 04:21 AM
Oh what could have been...

Yet wasn't.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/161/woulda.jpg (http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=woulda.jpg)


Life is simply too short and too precious to subscribe to that philosophy. Luckily Mr. Bowlen doesn't need this book. RIP Lamar Hunt.

lex
06-10-2009, 07:09 AM
But I thought McDaniels had all these great offensive tools, and that our offense won't decline without Cutler because of all the surrounding talent that is still here. I thought Cutler was going to suck this year because he has no supporting cast in Chicago? I guess with McDaniels there is talent, with Shanahan there was a one-man offensive show. Kinda like how with Shanahan if we had gone with a bunch of third string cast offs and UDFA's we would have been ignoring the line, but with McDaniels we have somehow improved.

Busted!

missingnumber7
06-10-2009, 07:13 AM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.

You seriously believe this? Wow...I must've been watching a completely different team then you were.

kamakazi_kal
06-10-2009, 07:49 AM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.

Hilarious! dude, really, I'll admit the last few years have been tough. Personally I thought the hopes for Denver were looking up....Cutler got dem beedees under control and had a good year considering all the pass attempts in only his second full season. As bad as it was you got to admit that season will benefit Cutler's development.

The offense took a step foward and we had a ton of cap space for this season. We all know shanny loves to make an offseason splash. How do you know Haynesworth or some other defense center piece wasn't in the crosshairs? That instantly makes the D better ...... instantly.

Shanny's record alone says your wrong about the next three seasons.

BTW your Rivers is so much better then cutler should be changed to the Chargers are just better the Denver (currently and over the last 3 seasons) Hopefully that changes this year though I'm considering this a rebuilding season. You can't just pin a loss or a win on one player even though you seem to try frequently.

You for sure can't try to argue Orton is closer to on par with Rivers then Cutler was ...... wait, maybe you will, I'm sure Gc2vcver (or how ever the hell you spell it) will take a crack at trying ........ what an offseason.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 07:56 AM
I love how we have a goddamn article where we're ranked in the top 25% of teams for this decade, and instead of having discussion about it and celebrating that team success, it turns into a thread bitching about the people responsible for it.

lex
06-10-2009, 07:59 AM
I love how we have a goddamn article where we're ranked in the top 25% of teams for this decade, and instead of having discussion about it and celebrating that team success, it turns into a thread b****ing about the people responsible for it.

Some people are like the jilted lover in fatal attraction. What can you do?

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 08:03 AM
Some people are like the jilted lover in fatal attraction. What can you do?

My approach?

1.Treat it as a social site and keep in touch with e-friends.
2. Avoid "football discussion" like the plague until we have an actual product at camp.
3. ???
4. Profit

Rock Chalk
06-10-2009, 09:59 AM
1 playoff win in a decade and we are the 8th best team? Really? Amazing.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 10:07 AM
1 playoff win in a decade and we are the 8th best team? Really? Amazing.

It's a good thing Jake Plummer and that 70% win record carried the rest of the decade. Those were good times. I don't care what any of you internet opinions say about Griese or Cutler. Those were tough times. No matter how you slice it Mile High was rocking with Jake, the team played their asses off, and we sniffed a Superbowl. Ah the good ole days. We'll get back there eventually.

Yeah yeah I know. Jay Cutler>Jake Plummer. Tell that to the record books and the fans that sat in the stands watching Griese, Plummer, and Cutler. You'll find most people that attended games in that era are appreciative of that run we had regardless of who was QB, who was to blame for the 2005 AFC west championship loss etc.

I can honestly say I'm glad that we got rid of the double chin drunk whiner no matter how much raw talent he had. I tend to believe that 50% or more of this game is attitude/leadership which Jake made up for even though he sucked at times. On the flip side Cutler was the type to lay blame on others. **** him.

Besides Jay Cutler is physically damaged goods in several ways. Mark my words. I doubt you'll even be hearing much about Jay in a couple years.

Florida_Bronco
06-10-2009, 10:13 AM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

Coincidence or not, from the time Cutler stepped on the field... the team stopped winning.

Shanahan decided to scrap the team and put together a one-man offensive show, and it cost him his job.

Cutler pooped himself when the playoffs were on the line this year.

Honestly, Chris. No one was a bigger fan of Shanahan than I was. But, it's time to move on.

Exactly. Mike was a great, great coach but he simply had his hand in too many cookie jars and was more worried about getting jobs for his friends. I think that became pretty clear when he effectively cut off Jim Bates' (a proven and respected DC) balls 6 weeks into the 2007 season, but was willing to give Bob Slowik (a DC who was proven to suck, but Shanny's friend) another year after the defense was far worse.

Like you, I was a huge Shanahan fan and ever greatful for the Super Bowl wins, but he dropped the ball in a major way.

Rock Chalk
06-10-2009, 10:15 AM
1 playoff win in 10 years!

How the hell did we end up 8th?

Popps
06-10-2009, 10:20 AM
But I thought McDaniels had all these great offensive tools.

He does have some. So did Cutler. The result? Three of total mediocrity.

B our offense won't decline without Cutler.

I never said that. It may not, but I never said that.

Keep up.

TonyR
06-10-2009, 10:23 AM
I can honestly say I'm glad that we got rid of the double chin drunk whiner no matter how much raw talent he had. I tend to believe that 50% or more of this game is attitude/leadership which Jake made up for even though he sucked at times. On the flip side Cutler was the type to lay blame on others. **** him.


The legendary Jay Cutler that many have built up in their minds really does amaze me. Jay Cutler is similar in many ways to Carmelo Anthony. Both are occasionally brilliant but just as often inconsistent and disappointing. Both have a lot of natural ability and potential, but neither has that extra something that the greats have and most likely they never will. You either have it or you don't. They don't. It's obvious to anyone with their eyes open.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 10:30 AM
The legendary Jay Cutler that many have built up in their minds really does amaze me. Jay Cutler is similar in many ways to Carmelo Anthony. Both are occasionally brilliant but just as often inconsistent and disappointing. Both have a lot of natural ability and potential, but neither has that extra something that the greats have and most likely they never will. You either have it or you don't. They don't. It's obvious to anyone with their eyes open.

That "extra something" is usually referred to as a "defense"

TonyR
06-10-2009, 10:37 AM
That "extra something" is usually referred to as a "defense"

Our defense was our biggest issue the last couple of years, no denying that fact. But you're in denial if you don't see that Cutler was/is far too inconsistent and came up small far too often. I have a hunch this will continue. We'll know who's right by December.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 10:44 AM
Our defense was our biggest issue the last couple of years, no denying that fact. But you're in denial if you don't see that Cutler was/is far too inconsistent and came up small far too often. I have a hunch this will continue. We'll know who's right by December.

Name 5 other QBs who wouldn't have come up short in those situations?

The offense won 8 games on their own. Should've been 9 (Marshall did NOT push off on that Mia TD) and we wouldn't be having ANY of these conversations.

Irish Stout
06-10-2009, 10:47 AM
Darrent Williams' death was a tragic loss, and it should never be minimized, but that doesn't mean we should exxagerate him as a player. He was never a leader or a spark plug.

I disagree with this 100%. I don't know that as a second year player DWill was a leader, but he was definitely the second best QB we've had on our team in the past 5 years. He definitely was a spark plug at times. May not be saying a lot, but the kid had talent and heart and given time might have grown into a leader on the team and in the NFL.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 10:48 AM
Name 5 other QBs who wouldn't have come up short in those situations?

The offense won 8 games on their own. Should've been 9 (Marshall did NOT push off on that Mia TD) and we wouldn't be having ANY of these conversations.

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Rothlesberger
Donovan McNabb
Philip Rivers

basically, leaders

Irish Stout
06-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Name 5 other QBs who wouldn't have come up short in those situations?

The offense won 8 games on their own. Should've been 9 (Marshall did NOT push off on that Mia TD) and we wouldn't be having ANY of these conversations.

Personally I can only name one that might have had a chance. Cutler absolutely did a lot for our team last year, but as we all know one player a team does not make.

Irish Stout
06-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Rothlesberger
Donovan McNabb
Philip Rivers

basically, leaders

Yeah Donovan McNabb has really shown that with a crappy D and no RBs that he can do better than Cutler did last year. :nono:

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:10 AM
Yeah Donovan McNabb has really shown that with a crappy D and no RBs that he can do better than Cutler did last year. :nono:

he's done it in the past....

this is also a guy who's name is floated in trade rumors EVERY year....and he steps up to the plate and shuts his mouth

McNabb is 10 times the player/person than Jay Cutler is right now

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:17 AM
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Rothlesberger
Donovan McNabb
Philip Rivers

basically, leaders

Oh really?

Roethlesberger and McNabb? McNabb barely made the playoffs with the #3 D in the NFL. Roethlesberger had the #1, and their offense consists of rushing the ball on 3/3 downs.

Rivers had a superior defense and ended up with the same record.

Manning and Brady are certainly better players, but you act like they're unflawed.

Manning won a game against Cleveland where he managed 3 pts total. When has Jay had that luxury?

lex
06-10-2009, 11:18 AM
he's done it in the past....

this is also a guy who's name is floated in trade rumors EVERY year....and he steps up to the plate and shuts his mouth

McNabb is 10 times the player/person than Jay Cutler is right now

McNabb has also been replaced in the past only to see the team not miss a beat. I doubt that could have happened with Detmer stepping in for Cutler in Denver last year.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:19 AM
Oh really?

Roethlesberger and McNabb? McNabb barely made the playoffs with the #3 D in the NFL. Roethlesberger had the #1, and their offense consists of rushing the ball on 3/3 downs.

Rivers had a superior defense and ended up with the same record.

Manning and Brady are certainly better players, but you act like they're unflawed.

Manning won a game against Cleveland where he managed 3 pts total. When has Jay had that luxury?

you didnt ask me about their off games or their D...

you asked me who we can put behind center last year and comes through...those guys do

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:19 AM
McNabb has also been replaced in the past only to see the team not miss a beat. I doubt that could have happened with Detmer stepping in for Cutler in Denver last year.

Feeley almost beat undefeated Pats, lol.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:20 AM
you didnt ask me about their off games or their D...

you asked me who we can put behind center last year and comes through...those guys do

So did ours. He performed HIS job way above expectations.

Is it his fault people don't understand football?

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:22 AM
McNabb has also been replaced in the past only to see the team not miss a beat. I doubt that could have happened with Detmer stepping in for Cutler in Denver last year.

Like when Kolb came in for Philly last year when McNabb was benched....

oh, and could you imagine the cry baby **** we would have gotten if CUtler was benched AT HALFTIME of a game???

instead, McNabb comes back the next week and plays his a$$ off saying the whole time, "I can't make coachign decisions"

if Cutler had any idea what it took to play the QB position he would be an all time great

lex
06-10-2009, 11:24 AM
you didnt ask me about their off games or their D...

you asked me who we can put behind center last year and comes through...those guys do

I dont think you realize that "those guys" also are with flaw. Either that or youre ignoring this in order to posture an argument.

Id take Jay Cutler in a heart beat over Donovan McNabb. Even with the defense keeping one eye on McNabb (because he scrambles a lot...yes more than Cutler), he still misses on a lot of passes. I guess people forget this. Our best RB was Peyton Hillis and we only had him for 2 weeks. Philly had Westbrook for the vast majority of the year.

BroncoInSkinland
06-10-2009, 11:24 AM
1 playoff win in 10 years!

How the hell did we end up 8th?

8. Denver
Regular season: 85-59, .590
Playoff wins/record: 1-4
Super Bowls won/appeared: 0
Playoff seasons: 4
Winning seasons: 6
Losing seasons: 1

Why on earth did the Broncos fire coach Mike Shanahan? The guy won the AFC's fourth-most regular-season games this decade, posted six winning seasons, made it to the playoffs four times, and had just one losing record. Oh, yeah, that's why. Because Denver lost four of five of those playoff games, beating only defending champion New England in 2005's divisional round. The Broncos have won 59 percent of the time in the regular season this decade, but that only protected Shanahan for so long given his lone playoff win since earning back-to-back rings in 1997-98.

Bold is why we are there, red is why Shanahan is gone. Seems pretty straight forward and covers both sides of the argument.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:24 AM
So did ours. He performed HIS job way above expectations.

Is it his fault people don't understand football?

really? he came through in the clutch? when we needed a win at home against Buffalo? in a must win game vs. the Raiders?

cmon, he had duds when the aforementioned guys wouldnt have

and don't insult my football knowledge on this subject...it really is a matter of opinion not fact

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:24 AM
Like when Kolb came in for Philly last year when McNabb was benched....

oh, and could you imagine the cry baby **** we would have gotten if CUtler was benched AT HALFTIME of a game???

instead, McNabb comes back the next week and plays his a$$ off saying the whole time, "I can't make coachign decisions"

if Cutler had any idea what it took to play the QB position he would be an all time great

You're in this area and you don't know all the bitching Donovan has done in his career about Philly?

You can't be serious...

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:25 AM
really? he came through in the clutch? when we needed a win at home against Buffalo? in a must win game vs. the Raiders?

cmon, he had duds when the aforementioned guys wouldnt have

and don't insult my football knowledge on this subject...it really is a matter of opinion not fact

I see.

So when Peyton Manning has a 3 pt game, it's an off-day. When Cutler doesn't score 30, he can't come through in the clutch?

Got it.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:27 AM
I dont think you realize that "those guys" also are with flaw. Either that or youre ignoring this in order to posture an argument.

Id take Jay Cutler in a heart beat over Donovan McNabb. Even with the defense keeping one eye on McNabb (because he scrambles a lot...yes more than Cutler), he still misses on a lot of passes. I guess people forget this. Our best RB was Peyton Hillis and we only had him for 2 weeks. Philly had Westbrook for the vast majority of the year.

Now this is where we just reach a difference in opinion

I'll take McNabb currently over Cutler just because of the "intangibles" he brings...leadership, unwavering positivity, smarts (throwing the ball out of bounds when needed), and understanding of the game as a whole, not just his own position/play

lex
06-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Like when Kolb came in for Philly last year when McNabb was benched....

Against the Ravens? LOL. Think of it this way (and even the most feeble minded should know this response was coming), did Kolb do any worse?

oh, and could you imagine the cry baby **** we would have gotten if CUtler was benched AT HALFTIME of a game???

You should join a Battered By Jay Cutler women's support group.

instead, McNabb comes back the next week and plays his a$$ off saying the whole time, "I can't make coachign decisions"

if Cutler had any idea what it took to play the QB position he would be an all time great

Once again, just ask around, Im sure youll find someone to give you the support so that you can find the courage to make it through these tough times that Cutler has brought upon you.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Now this is where we just reach a difference in opinion

I'll take McNabb currently over Cutler just because of the "intangibles" he brings...leadership, unwavering positivity, smarts (throwing the ball out of bounds when needed), and understanding of the game as a whole, not just his own position/play

You must be talking about a different McNabb.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:29 AM
You're in this area and you don't know all the b****ing Donovan has done in his career about Philly?

You can't be serious...

dude, the guy since he began his stint as an Eagle has undergone one of the roughest tenures of any QB in the NFL...he's booed constantly, the fans clamor for his benching, the radio shows are always saying he's done..and he plays as hard as he can every year...its a PHilly thing..they suck as fans and expect A LOT

Cutler would have already demanded a trade (probably by year 2) and wouldnt have shown up....

lex
06-10-2009, 11:30 AM
Now this is where we just reach a difference in opinion

I'll take McNabb currently over Cutler just because of the "intangibles" he brings...leadership, unwavering positivity, smarts (throwing the ball out of bounds when needed), and understanding of the game as a whole, not just his own position/play

The flip side of what you call "smarts" is missing wide open WRs though...just so you know that.

And most of that other stuff is a bold-faced lie. McNabb was a total child last year about the benching. Stop making stuff up.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:31 AM
Once again, just ask around, Im sure youll find someone to give you the support so that you can find the courage to make it through these tough times that Cutler has brought upon you.

Not sure what that has to do with the argument at all....its a good job of re-directing football conversation to personal insults and whatnot....but its pretty irrelevant


The proof is already there between the two guy when it comes to maturity:

McNabb is in trade rumors --------- he shows up and plays

Cutler in trade rumors ----------- he quits

lex
06-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Not sure what that has to do with the argument at all....its a good job of re-directing football conversation to personal insults and whatnot....but its pretty irrelevant


The proof is already there between the two guy when it comes to maturity:

McNabb is in trade rumors --------- he shows up and plays

Cutler in trade rumors ----------- he quits

That means youre not even making sense because youre speaking out of rage...like a scorned woman.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 11:33 AM
The flip side of what you call "smarts" is missing wide open WRs though...just so you know that.

And most of that other stuff is a bold-faced lie. McNabb was a total child last year about the benching. Stop making stuff up.

"My first (reaction) was, 'Wow.' But you go along with it," McNabb said. "I am upset about us losing the game, and I'm upset that I wasn't able to contribute. But I am going to focus on trying to help this team get better by eliminating mistakes and turnovers."


Really? Cutler doesnt even answer post game questions....you obviously dont know the situation that well with McNabb

broncofan7
06-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Name 5 other QBs who wouldn't have come up short in those situations?
The offense won 8 games on their own. Should've been 9 (Marshall did NOT push off on that Mia TD) and we wouldn't be having ANY of these conversations.

There are NONE who would lead a team to the playoffs whose defense gave up 26-28 points per game--Peyton couldn't do it(see the 2001 Colts 6-10)-- and Tom Brady has never faced that situation. Do I believe it was time for Shanny to go--YES. Should we have hired McD? HELL-to-the-NO. Spagnuolo--and spell it right Bronco fans--would have been our answer.

broncofan7
06-10-2009, 11:42 AM
I am stoked to see the poise and presence that Orton or Simms exhibit in our post game press conferences after each of our 10 or 11 losses this year! Practice will make perfect I guess and each QB will have the opportunity to show just how polished they are in the Q&A sessions if not on the field and in the spread offense..........

lex
06-10-2009, 11:43 AM
"My first (reaction) was, 'Wow.' But you go along with it," McNabb said. "I am upset about us losing the game, and I'm upset that I wasn't able to contribute. But I am going to focus on trying to help this team get better by eliminating mistakes and turnovers."


Really? Cutler doesnt even answer post game questions....you obviously dont know the situation that well with McNabb

Every time I saw McNabb comment on what happened, he spoke facetiously. Stop posturing.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Not sure what that has to do with the argument at all....its a good job of re-directing football conversation to personal insults and whatnot....but its pretty irrelevant


The proof is already there between the two guy when it comes to maturity:

McNabb is in trade rumors --------- he shows up and plays

Cutler in trade rumors ----------- he quits

McNabb has never publicly been trade bait. There have been rumors, and for every rumor a matching one that he's quietly requested to be traded. So how any of that applies is ludicrous.

Also, Jay didn't quit. He was very public about coming in for mandatory activities.

Kaylore
06-10-2009, 11:53 AM
No, Jay quit and he was very public about leaving meetings and demanding a trade.

rugbythug
06-10-2009, 11:57 AM
McNabb has never publicly been trade bait. There have been rumors, and for every rumor a matching one that he's quietly requested to be traded. So how any of that applies is ludicrous.

Also, Jay didn't quit. He was very public about coming in for mandatory activities.

Ours was just a Rumor for 2 weeks too. If Cutler showed up and acted like a team player it would still be a rumor.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 11:59 AM
No, Jay quit and he was very public about leaving meetings and demanding a trade.

Gotta be pretty bitter to have that pov... he was even more public about reporting to mandatory camps and playing for his teammates.

Calling him a quitter because he was lifting weights in Tennessee instead of Denver is silly, don't you think?

Rock Chalk
06-10-2009, 12:04 PM
Gotta be pretty bitter to have that pov... he was even more public about reporting to mandatory camps and playing for his teammates.

Calling him a quitter because he was lifting weights in Tennessee instead of Denver is silly, don't you think?

Dude, he demanded a trade.

DEMANDED.

He refused to answer the phone when the OWNER called.

Thats a ****ing quitter.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:05 PM
McNabb has never publicly been trade bait. There have been rumors, and for every rumor a matching one that he's quietly requested to be traded. So how any of that applies is ludicrous.

Also, Jay didn't quit. He was very public about coming in for mandatory activities.

McNabb was about as publicly trade baited as Cutler

its the same thing

also, Lex...I refuse to get into bickering with you....you say "facetiously" and tell me to stop posturing...he said what your are supposed to say as a part of a team...bottom line he produced after that

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:09 PM
Dude, he demanded a trade.

DEMANDED.

He refused to answer the phone when the OWNER called.

Thats a ****ing quitter.

So the owner says.

The same one that said the Goodmans would have a job.

The same one that said Cutler was the man around here and he'd be involved in decisions.

The same one that "couldn't remember" if he'd talked to him or not.

Really, you guys are hilarious.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:09 PM
McNabb was about as publicly trade baited as Cutler

its the same thing

also, Lex...I refuse to get into bickering with you....you say "facetiously" and tell me to stop posturing...he said what your are supposed to say as a part of a team...bottom line he produced after that

When?

Rock Chalk
06-10-2009, 12:13 PM
So the owner says.

The same one that said the Goodmans would have a job.

The same one that said Cutler was the man around here and he'd be involved in decisions.

The same one that "couldn't remember" if he'd talked to him or not.

Really, you guys are hilarious.

So what you are saying is this:

"Pat Bowlen is a liar and never called Cutler once. He told McDaniels to trade him for absolutely no reason other than to make Cutler to look like a prima donna".

And you call US hilarious.

When what is most likely the situation was:

"Pat Bowlen called Cutler numerous times without answer or return phone call. At this point, Pat Bowlen decided the franchise would move on without him, that no one player was bigger than the team regardless of who it was. He told McDaniels to trade him, and that was the end of it".

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:13 PM
When?

What year do you want?

The year he was being dangled to the Ravens?

Or how about when he was going to be a Bear?

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:14 PM
What year do you want?

The year he was being dangled to the Ravens?

Or how about when he was going to be a Bear?

Oh by all means. Let's see these sources!

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:15 PM
So what you are saying is this:

"Pat Bowlen is a liar and never called Cutler once. He told McDaniels to trade him for absolutely no reason other than to make Cutler to look like a prima donna".

And you call US hilarious.

When what is most likely the situation was:

"Pat Bowlen called Cutler numerous times without answer or return phone call. At this point, Pat Bowlen decided the franchise would move on without him, that no one player was bigger than the team regardless of who it was. He told McDaniels to trade him, and that was the end of it".

I presented actual facts that have been quoted from the man himself.

You put words in my mouth and create your own conclusions.

Yes, you are being hilarious.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:17 PM
Oh by all means. Let's see these sources!

Dude...its the same sources that the Cutler rumors were going around in...YardBarker, message boards, the Philly Enquirer

or how about the time he was supposed to end up in Miami

oh my, his heart must have been shattered when he heard this

"how can I ever trust them again?"

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:20 PM
Dude...its the same sources that the Cutler rumors were going around in...YardBarker, message boards, the Philly Enquirer

or how about the time he was supposed to end up in Miami

oh my, his heart must have been shattered when he heard this

"how can I ever trust them again?"

Hmmmm...

One hand has the FO admitting they played with idea but were "too late to the dance"

The other has nothing. By all means, ANYTHING from the Eagles about considering trading Donovan? ANYTHING at all?

Got some sources or just gonna keep making **** up off of rampant speculation?

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:22 PM
Hmmmm...

One hand has the FO admitting they played with idea but were "too late to the dance"

The other has nothing. By all means, ANYTHING from the Eagles about considering trading Donovan? ANYTHING at all?

Got some sources or just gonna keep making **** up off of rampant speculation?


the too late to the dance comment was made after all thigns were already in the ****ter with Cutler

the fact that you won't admit that Cutler handled it poorly (as well as the front office) shows that you are completely blind in your opinion

broncofan7
06-10-2009, 12:23 PM
IF not for MCD--Bowlen would not have felt compelled to call Cutler nor would Cutler have been motivated to not answer said call from Bowlen. The 1st domino that fell was McD and his love affair with Cassel---- Has anyone verified the existence of a tramp stamp with the initials 'M.C.' surrounded by a heart shape on McD? In two years McD will be out of work and Cassel will more than likely be a FA at the end of this season..........perhaps they can unite under some other gullible NFL owner........Kubes in 2011 BABY!

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:25 PM
IF not for MCD--Bowlen would not have felt compelled to call Cutler nor would Cutler have been motivated to not answer said call from Bowlen. The 1st domino that fell was McD and his love affair with Cassel---- Has anyone verified the existence of a tramp stamp with the initials 'M.C.' surrounded by a heart shape on McD? In two years McD will be out of work and Cassel will more than likely be a FA at the end of this season..........perhaps they can unite under some other gullible NFL owner........Kubes in 2011 BABY!

Cutler will be out of the league before McDaniels is.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:28 PM
the too late to the dance comment was made after all thigns were already in the ****ter with Cutler

Exactly. After they came clean on lying about it initially. Yes, such a trust worthy FO.

the fact that you won't admit that Cutler handled it poorly (as well as the front office) shows that you are completely blind in your opinion

???

The way he handled it sucks for me because I liked him a lot. Yet, I can also realize the way he handled it landed him in a best case scenario.

That's not "blind in my opinion" that's open-minded enough to view from an outsider POV instead of just a Bronco fan.

broncofan7
06-10-2009, 12:32 PM
Cutler will be out of the league before McDaniels is.

McDaniels as an OC? probably true--as Broncos HC? :rofl:

Tombstone RJ
06-10-2009, 12:35 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html

8th overall behind a bunch of super bowl champions and Philly. We definitely had it rough under Shanahan considering he didn't have a franchise QB at his disposal until he landed Cutler.

Oh what could have been...

The difference between what NE has accomplished (and even Pittsburgh and NYG) and what Denver has accomplished over the last 10 years is immeasurable, IMHO.

lex
06-10-2009, 12:35 PM
McNabb was about as publicly trade baited as Cutler

its the same thing

also, Lex...I refuse to get into bickering with you....you say "facetiously" and tell me to stop posturing...he said what your are supposed to say as a part of a team...bottom line he produced after that

LOL

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 12:40 PM
LOL

i should just ignore you like the rest of the board...its a shame that you have found a way to become such a pariah on a message board

lex
06-10-2009, 12:42 PM
i should just ignore you like the rest of the board...its a shame that you have found a way to become such a pariah on a message board

Stop telling me about it and just do it. Stop being a drama queen already.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Why people confuse Lex with a Broncos fan is beyond me. He's a troll.

lex
06-10-2009, 12:45 PM
Why people confuse Lex with a Broncos fan is beyond me. He's a troll.

A "troll" is better than a lemming.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 12:47 PM
A "troll" is better than a lemming.

And there you have it folks. A self proclaimed troll. As if there was any doubt.


:thanku:

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:49 PM
Well since apparently my end of the conversation has been hi-jacked, I'm going to the gym.

lex
06-10-2009, 12:49 PM
And there you have it folks. A self proclaimed troll. As if there was any doubt.


:thanku:

Coming from a sheep that means little.



Baaaaahh.

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 12:58 PM
Coming from a sheep that means little.



Baaaaahh.

On my way out, but Meck does deserve better than that lex.

At the moment, this is all a difference of opinion.

Soon facts will sort out who's right and wrong. Hopefully they're right.

lex
06-10-2009, 01:02 PM
On my way out, but Meck does deserve better than that lex.

At the moment, this is all a difference of opinion.

Soon facts will sort out who's right and wrong. Hopefully they're right.

Hah, not hardly. If calling someone out for not blindly accepting the new regime is a troll, the flip side is to call out those who are blindly accepting as the sheep they are. He brought on the name calling himself. If you cant take it, dont dish it out.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 01:15 PM
Nah lex. I actually plan on watching some Broncos football this season and coming up with some conclusions about the team come Nov or Dec. The reality is the real picture won't be clear until Nov or Ded of next season. Of course you have it all figured out right now.

Rev there is no point trying to gain respect from a troll/random internet personality.

lex
06-10-2009, 01:17 PM
Nah lex. I actually plan on watching some Broncos football this season and coming up with some conclusions about the team come Nov or Dec. The reality is the real picture won't be clear until Nov or Ded of next season. Of course you have it all figured out right now.


You facetiously say I have it figured out now, yet you claim you will have it figured out in November? You dont think this arbitrariness is hypocritical?

Meck77
06-10-2009, 01:20 PM
Read my post. I said REAL conclusions about the direction of this team won't be apparent until 30+ weeks of football. TWO SEASONS.

lex
06-10-2009, 01:24 PM
Read my post. I said REAL conclusions about the direction of this team won't be apparent until 30+ weeks of football. TWO SEASONS.


Do you even understand what I was asking? It doesnt really seem like it. LOL.

Never mind. Just run alooooooong.

TonyR
06-10-2009, 01:30 PM
The offense won 8 games on their own. Should've been 9 (Marshall did NOT push off on that Mia TD) and we wouldn't be having ANY of these conversations.

The Broncos won or lost based largely on Jay's performance. Jay's avg QB rating was ~106 in wins and ~68 in losses. So it is to his credit that he was perhaps the primary reason for the 8 wins. The problem is he was also a major reason for some of the 8 losses. In four of the losses in particular his performances were both inexplicable and unacceptable: @KC, Mia, Oak, and Buf. Better performances in any of those games and they have a good chance to win. And this again points to his inconsistency. He put up a 137.5, without Brandon, in the win at Oakland vs. a 49.8 at home in the loss to the Raiders. Blame the defense and running game all you want but Jay is primarily to blame for his own poor performance in these games.

Most of this has been said before but perhaps needs to be said again: For the season the offense average 23+ points per game. After week 3 the offense averaged under 20. Not good enough. The offense averaged 15.5 points in the 8 losses. Not many teams are going to win games averaging 15.5 points.

My overall point is that the offense, and Jay Cutler, are not blameless as some of you would have us (or yourselves) believe. Jay was far too inconsistent. The so-called "franchise QB" and "best player on the team" had to come up bigger in a couple of those games I referenced to put this team over the top. He didn't do it. And the question is, can he?

Like I said before, we'll know a lot more in December.

Meck77
06-10-2009, 01:31 PM
Do you even understand what I was asking? It doesnt really seem like it. LOL.

Never mind. Just run alooooooong.

Run along? Ok newbie. Whatever you say.

Not sure why you crying about. Your team in Chicago has a new QB. You should be excited.

vancejohnson82
06-10-2009, 01:32 PM
The Broncos won or lost based largely on Jay's performance. Jay's avg QB rating was ~106 in wins and ~68 in losses. So it is to his credit that he was perhaps the primary reason for the 8 wins. The problem is he was also a major reason for some of the 8 losses. In four of the losses in particular his performances were both inexplicable and unacceptable: @KC, Mia, Oak, and Buf. Better performances in any of those games and they have a good chance to win. And this again points to his inconsistency. He put up a 137.5, without Brandon, in the win at Oakland vs. a 49.8 at home in the loss to the Raiders. Blame the defense and running game all you want but Jay is primarily to blame for his own poor performance in these games.

Most of this has been said before but perhaps needs to be said again: For the season the offense average 23+ points per game. After week 3 the offense averaged under 20. Not good enough. The offense averaged 15.5 points in the 8 losses. Not many teams are going to win games averaging 15.5 points.

My overall point is that the offense, and Jay Cutler, are not blameless as some of you would have us (or yourselves) believe. Jay was far too inconsistent. The so-called "franchise QB" and "best player on the team" had to come up bigger in a couple of those games I referenced to put this team over the top. He didn't do it. And the question is, can he?

Like I said before, we'll know a lot more in December.

way too much sense in that post to belong in this thread...

TheReverend
06-10-2009, 02:54 PM
The Broncos won or lost based largely on Jay's performance. Jay's avg QB rating was ~106 in wins and ~68 in losses. So it is to his credit that he was perhaps the primary reason for the 8 wins. The problem is he was also a major reason for some of the 8 losses. In four of the losses in particular his performances were both inexplicable and unacceptable: @KC, Mia, Oak, and Buf. Better performances in any of those games and they have a good chance to win. And this again points to his inconsistency. He put up a 137.5, without Brandon, in the win at Oakland vs. a 49.8 at home in the loss to the Raiders. Blame the defense and running game all you want but Jay is primarily to blame for his own poor performance in these games.

Most of this has been said before but perhaps needs to be said again: For the season the offense average 23+ points per game. After week 3 the offense averaged under 20. Not good enough. The offense averaged 15.5 points in the 8 losses. Not many teams are going to win games averaging 15.5 points.

My overall point is that the offense, and Jay Cutler, are not blameless as some of you would have us (or yourselves) believe. Jay was far too inconsistent. The so-called "franchise QB" and "best player on the team" had to come up bigger in a couple of those games I referenced to put this team over the top. He didn't do it. And the question is, can he?

Like I said before, we'll know a lot more in December.

Great post to get home to.

Sadly, it's devoid of perspective. Here's a second full year player that produced at his level, earned the pro bowl, and spent a good chunk of the season in the MVP/OPOY race.

Let me re-iterate... second. full. year. player.

You have no problem accepting a sub-par performance from 10 year vets like Manning, Brady or Brees as an "off-day", but a second year player is purely "inconsistent" and "not coming through when it counts"

Stuff like this is precisely why Orton's gonna get his balls handed to him.

DarkHorse30
06-10-2009, 03:32 PM
I think you're in complete denial about how bad the team was and how hopeless the situation on defense was going to be under Shanahan.

The team didn't just need "a guy to fix the defense and we'd be fine". The team needed to be gutted and started anew.

Bingo. I hated losing Shanahan because I'm loyal to the guy who won championships. But when Bowlen decided to roll the dice on a shanahan-type coach (good OC on SB winning team, young, not afraid of his players), I thought it was a great move, and still do. Too bad about Cutler (for his sake, not mine. He had a chance to learn from one of the most proven OCs in the game right now and whiffed), but football teams need leaders not whiners.

colonelbeef
06-10-2009, 03:40 PM
But I thought McDaniels had all these great offensive tools, and that our offense won't decline without Cutler because of all the surrounding talent that is still here. I thought Cutler was going to suck this year because he has no supporting cast in Chicago? I guess with McDaniels there is talent, with Shanahan there was a one-man offensive show. Kinda like how with Shanahan if we had gone with a bunch of third string cast offs and UDFA's we would have been ignoring the line, but with McDaniels we have somehow improved.

haha, good points all around

Popps
06-10-2009, 04:24 PM
haha, good points all around

No they're not. He created straw-man arguments and shot them down.

No one around here has been saying our offense couldn't drop off because of the loss of Cutler.

So, they're not good points, they're imaginary arguments he's having with himself.

gunns
06-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Hehehehehe! San Diego #12 and they thought they were the cock of the walk.

I'm glad so many were proud of 8. Actually I was surprised it was 8 but never proud. I didn't think any Bronco fan would be proud of 8. We aim higher.

TonyR
06-10-2009, 07:08 PM
You have no problem accepting a sub-par performance from 10 year vets like Manning, Brady or Brees as an "off-day", but a second year player is purely "inconsistent" and "not coming through when it counts"


I have no problem accepting an occasional sub-par performance from anyone. Key word is occasional. An argument could be made that Jay was "sub par" in 8 games last season, and I don't think batting .500 is acceptable for too many "franchise quarterbacks", do you? How many "off days" does you "best player" get?

bpc
06-10-2009, 07:16 PM
How long does it take to become a franchise QB? Was Peyton a MVP after 41 starts? Actually, the stats look quite similar between Jay and Peyton.

Of course you all don't want to admit that because of his win/loss record which was directly tied to our defense and lack of consistent running presence.

Whatever.

I just wonder what the sentiment will be here when Jay continues to grow as a player into a dominant performer. The best part will be to come as we'll get to see the Shanny/Cutler hate militia spew their venom much more than they are now.

Better hope that McDaniels can turn retread QB's into pro bowl type players because that is the expectation he set for himself with the fans. His statement is that I don't NEED talented QB's, me and my system are good enough to make great players. And if he can't, he'll have to rely on the means of drafting a QB once again, high in the 1st round and then wait around for a few years as they develop... basically a process we just completed with Jay, only to peddle him away for draft picks and unproven players.

TonyR
06-10-2009, 08:35 PM
How long does it take to become a franchise QB? Was Peyton a MVP after 41 starts? Actually, the stats look quite similar between Jay and Peyton.

Of course you all don't want to admit that because of his win/loss record which was directly tied to our defense and lack of consistent running presence.

Whatever...

Better hope that McDaniels can turn retread QB's into pro bowl type players because that is the expectation he set for himself with the fans. His statement is that I don't NEED talented QB's, me and my system are good enough to make great players....

Well, the Manning helmed Colts improved from 3-13 to 13-3 his second year.

And when did McD ever say he didn't need "talented QB's"? I'd love to see that quote.

bpc
06-11-2009, 01:03 AM
Well, the Manning helmed Colts improved from 3-13 to 13-3 his second year.

And when did McD ever say he didn't need "talented QB's"? I'd love to see that quote.

Manning also had Marshall Faulk and Edgerin James as his first two HB's in those years along with Marvin Harrison in his prime. Care to compare the stats vs. what Denver had in the backfield or that Harrison, statistically was a top five WR in NFL history? I doubt you do.

Manning had a way better supporting cast. Cutler didn't have much until this past year when we drafted Clady and Royal to allow Jay to take some 5 and 7 step drops and throw the ball down the field.

McD basically stated that he wanted his guy (Cassel) more than he wanted Cutler when about 99.9% of the personnel staffs in the NFL would say Jay is clearly the better QB of the two. That's fine and dandy but it gives the public a sense that Mcdaniels believes he can take any QB and turn them from trash to treasure hence with how he tied himself to Orton and Simms. He set the bar for himself and now this is our expectation.

colonelbeef
06-11-2009, 05:44 AM
Manning also had Marshall Faulk and Edgerin James as his first two HB's in those years along with Marvin Harrison in his prime. Care to compare the stats vs. what Denver had in the backfield or that Harrison, statistically was a top five WR in NFL history? I doubt you do.

Manning had a way better supporting cast. Cutler didn't have much until this past year when we drafted Clady and Royal to allow Jay to take some 5 and 7 step drops and throw the ball down the field.

McD basically stated that he wanted his guy (Cassel) more than he wanted Cutler when about 99.9% of the personnel staffs in the NFL would say Jay is clearly the better QB of the two. That's fine and dandy but it gives the public a sense that Mcdaniels believes he can take any QB and turn them from trash to treasure hence with how he tied himself to Orton and Simms. He set the bar for himself and now this is our expectation.

Unfortunately there is no arguing this point of view as the stats bear this out- Cutler statistically is on par with Manning and better than Elway, Favre, Young etc statistically in his first few seasons, case closed. The only people fighting this logic are homers who have no intention of ever admitting what a colossal ****up this entire exercise has been.

McDaniels needs to win immediately or this is going to get ugly extremely quickly. If Cutler has a decent year and the Bears go deep into the playoffs and the Broncos have a losing record, McDaniels will have to hide in a bunker on weekdays, and he has nobody to blame but himself.

Thing that really bothers me is that many here have overlooked how great the exposure that a pro-bowl QB can get a team- just look at Favre, Elway, Manning for evidence. Much more national exposure by the way of national games, endorsements, etc. good for the team's bottom line, good for the owner, and eventually good when signing free agents. Losing Cutler will hurt off the football field as much as on it.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 07:13 AM
Unfortunately there is no arguing this point of view as the stats bear this out- Cutler statistically is on par with Manning and better than Elway, Favre, Young etc statistically in his first few seasons, case closed. The only people fighting this logic...

So now Jay Cutler is as good as Peyton Manning, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Steve Young? Who has the logic problem here, exactly?

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 08:11 AM
No they're not. He created straw-man arguments and shot them down.

No one around here has been saying our offense couldn't drop off because of the loss of Cutler.

So, they're not good points, they're imaginary arguments he's having with himself.

Do you believe that the offense has multiple talented players on it currently that are capable of providing us with an effective unit capable of winning games?

Has the offensive unit changed drastically (apart from Cutler and Knowshon) from last year?

Do you still standby your assertation that Shanahan was running a one-man show? It seems to me that he set us up with a pretty full roster on the offensive side of the ball, I would call it more of an all-star cast. My argument is you having a double standard regarding this front office and the previous one, from making off handed remarks about building a one man show and disregarding the talent we had and still have on the rest of the offense, to giving the current Defense a pass when you would have been going nuts if Shanahan had been in charge of this off season and made the same moves.

You can ignore the points and insult me all you want, but it doesn't change the situation. I guess I am arguing with my self since you -as usual- don't want to acknowledge or respond to any of the points. Go ahead and call me a few names, McDaniels hater, Shanahan supporter, Cutler coddler, whiner, Bear fan. I think I covered most of them, but I am sure you will find a new way to dodge the issue and insult a fellow Bronco fan. Good luck with that by the way.

bpc
06-11-2009, 08:25 AM
So now Jay Cutler is as good as Peyton Manning, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Steve Young? Who has the logic problem here, exactly?

Really, what would the Cutler hate crowd at the OM say about Steve Young and Brett Favre if we had just followed their first three years in Denver compared to Jay's?

Do you even want the statistical break down of these players?

Fact is, put in the same situation, these same homers that are trying their very best to tear down Cutler would have tried to run Young, Favre, Kelly, Aikman and just about every other QB out of town because they weren't dominating every faucet of the game after 41 starts.

I'm upset about the Cutler trade, but I'm ready to move forward from it. The thing that still kills me is that we're probably going to lose badly this year and we'll have no top 10 pick to show for it because we decided to trade it away for a nickel CB. But what we'll most likely need going forward is a gamebreaker, an elite force on the field. We passed up so many talented players come up this year that could have helped the future of this team and to see us piss it away under this arrogant little asshole Josh McDaniels, that's what pisses me off.

He mortgaged the future of this team by trading Cutler and then he did it again when he pissed away what probably will be a top 5 pick this year. If we had to fall back on a top QB, we could have had that. Impact defensive players which we've been missing since Al left... there are going to be at least 5 which could have started from day 1 in my opinion. All of that gone. And all we'll have to show for the 1st round will be like the 26th selection in the draft.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 08:45 AM
Really, what would the Cutler hate crowd at the OM say about Steve Young and Brett Favre if we had just followed their first three years in Denver compared to Jay's?

Do you even want the statistical break down of these players?

Fact is, put in the same situation, these same homers that are trying their very best to tear down Cutler would have tried to run Young, Favre, Kelly, Aikman and just about every other QB out of town because they weren't dominating every faucet of the game after 41 starts.

I'm upset about the Cutler trade, but I'm ready to move forward from it. The thing that still kills me is that we're probably going to lose badly this year and we'll have no top 10 pick to show for it because we decided to trade it away for a nickel CB. But what we'll most likely need going forward is a gamebreaker, an elite force on the field. We passed up so many talented players come up this year that could have helped the future of this team and to see us piss it away under this arrogant little a-hole Josh McDaniels, that's what pisses me off.
He mortgaged the future of this team by trading Cutler and then he did it again when he pissed away what probably will be a top 5 pick this year. If we had to fall back on a top QB, we could have had that. Impact defensive players which we've been missing since Al left... there are going to be at least 5 which could have started from day 1 in my opinion. All of that gone. And all we'll have to show for the 1st round will be like the 26th selection in the draft.


Are you ready to move forward? It doesnt seem like it from the second part of that paragraph.

In my opinion we acquired a BUNCH of guys that can help the future/preent state of the team...the big splash names like Moreno are going to make headlines but I like the Goodman pickup and the Gaffney signing....THe team has a lot of pieces in place on both sides of the ball, the question is going to be how quickly we can put it together. THAT should be the merit that Josh's job is based off of this year....Who could we have nabbed this year that we passed on? I'm just interested.

I don't believe we mortgaged the future of the team at all...Cutler wanted out, we got what we could in return...simple business. We can talk about what happened before that until we turn blue, but fact of the matter is that at one point we had to move forward and I think we got what we could. Alphonso is going to be groomed under Champ and guys like McBath are going to be groomed under Dawkins...thats PERFECT forward looking planning when it comes to the team..somethjing I felt Shanahan was missing....he was always picking up guys that helped us immediately and it cost us at time...he needed to move like that because the pressure was on him to win, so you can't blame him for that.

Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year

We are missing impact players on defense but you don't always get those guys by going out and spending money...you groom guys and keep them around for a string of years to build locker room cohesiion and respect...i dont think we've had that in a few years (especially on defense)

TonyR
06-11-2009, 08:45 AM
I'm upset about the Cutler trade, but I'm ready to move forward from it.


Are you? Because it seems like you, like many others, aren't. You go so far out of your way to defend him while bashing the current head coach of the team you're supposedly a fan of. Puzzling to say the least.



We passed up so many talented players come up this year that could have helped the future of this team...


Do you have some examples? Do Moreno and Ayers not fit this description?

TonyR
06-11-2009, 08:48 AM
Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year


Perfect. Almost exacly where I'm at.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 08:59 AM
Perfect. Almost exacly where I'm at.

same line of thinking....

I want to know who we passed on in the draft that we are apparently regretting

Bob's your Information Minister
06-11-2009, 08:59 AM
Thanks Carl

BroncoBuff
06-11-2009, 09:07 AM
Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year

Agreed

Spider
06-11-2009, 09:09 AM
Stats ? blah , blah, blah ,blah , Doug Williams would have to climb a ladder to kiss Elways ass but yet Williams and the Deadskins creamed us in a SB , Phill Simms ,same thing , was Plunkett better then Thiesman ?
was Hostetler better the Kelly ?
was Montana better then Elway ?

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 09:20 AM
same line of thinking....

I want to know who we passed on in the draft that we are apparently regretting
I loved our first round--BUT, for those who seem to think that we were not going to fair very well with Cutler either this year---now that we don't have a top 10 QB behind center---how can you justify us trading OUR #1 instead of Chicago's #1 next year for Smith?

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 09:20 AM
In my opinion we acquired a BUNCH of guys that can help the future/preent state of the team...the big splash names like Moreno are going to make headlines but I like the Goodman pickup and the Gaffney signing....THe team has a lot of pieces in place on both sides of the ball, the question is going to be how quickly we can put it together. THAT should be the merit that Josh's job is based off of this year....Who could we have nabbed this year that we passed on? I'm just interested. I think we are lacking on defense still specifically on the line, but otherwise agree with this. I have a bad feeling it will take a little while to put it together and with the only "easy" stretch of the year being the first three games, I think it will hurt the W/L column at the end of the year. As far as who we passed on, I would hae liked Brace, there were a few others, but that is the one that stands out for me. At the same time I think Smith has talent, and could be the eventually replacement for Champ. I understand the move, but I don't neccesarily like it.

I don't believe we mortgaged the future of the team at all...Cutler wanted out, we got what we could in return...simple business. I agree, given the situation, we got what we could, and it was fairly good value. I wish it had never happened, but in the interest of moving forward, I will agree that we got the best value (or very close) that was available.

Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year Agreed, but we could make significant improvements to the team long term.
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year I disagree, I believe we could have made the playoffs with Jay if we focused on the line, but mostly because of the lack of competition within the division. I don't think we would have made much noise in the playoffs unless we got very lucky on the defensive pickups.
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year Disagree, I think we will be able to judge the state of the franchise to a certain extent. It won't be in the stats or win loss column, but there will be indicators if McDaniels has us on the road to something more or not.

We are missing impact players on defense but you don't always get those guys by going out and spending money...you groom guys and keep them around for a string of years to build locker room cohesiion and respect...i dont think we've had that in a few years (especially on defense)

I agree with the last statement to an extent, but also believe you have to go after the guys you want to groom. That's my biggest problem with the entire off season. We dredged the third round rosters of other teams and waited for UDFA's to address the line, it could work out, but I would be much more comfortable if we had a few high round draft picks that were targeted and there seemed to be a method to the madness. I trust Nolan to do everything possible with the guys he has, and I even think he probably told McDaniels he could make it work with the guys he had, then got Brace as a nice little suprise at the end of all of it. At the same time, I have seen our line struggle with inferior talent for too many seasons now, so I have significant doubts.

lex
06-11-2009, 09:22 AM
So now Jay Cutler is as good as Peyton Manning, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Steve Young? Who has the logic problem here, exactly?

Thats nice. You dont have a reply for what they actually said so you make up what they said just so you can have a reply to something.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 09:25 AM
I loved our first round--BUT, for those who seem to think that we were not going to fair very with with Cutler either this year---now that we don't have a top 10QB behind center---how can you justify us trading OUR #1 instead of Chicago's #1 next year for Smith?

I think this is just an example of how this front office is now going to run. Look at how many teams this year had "great pick positions" and wanted to trade down because the guys available didnt fit their needs. I think McDaniels and Co. said to themselves that if Alphonso was still on the board after a certain pick that they would have to go get him. I agree with it because Champ could be one injury away from calling it a career and then we woudl be in SERIOUS trouble. In their eyes I think getting that replacement corner THIS year in order to be groomed was more important than hoping someone is available next year.

Basically, by the time the defense starts to turn around (middle of next year?) Smith will be a significant part of it and not a rookie CB who is just learning the ropes.

Then again, this is all best case scenario stuff

lex
06-11-2009, 09:31 AM
I think this is just an example of how this front office is now going to run. Look at how many teams this year had "great pick positions" and wanted to trade down because the guys available didnt fit their needs. I think McDaniels and Co. said to themselves that if Alphonso was still on the board after a certain pick that they would have to go get him. I agree with it because Champ could be one injury away from calling it a career and then we woudl be in SERIOUS trouble. In their eyes I think getting that replacement corner THIS year in order to be groomed was more important than hoping someone is available next year.

Basically, by the time the defense starts to turn around (middle of next year?) Smith will be a significant part of it and not a rookie CB who is just learning the ropes.

Then again, this is all best case scenario stuff

Stop trying to rationalize it. He wasted a high pick next year when he had ammo in the form of two 3rds to move up to take Smith. But he used that to move up into the 2nd to take a blocking TE. The only thing that explains this move is Pat not wanting to pay for 4 1st round picks over two years, with one of them possibly being really high.

Its also hypocritical for people to complain about the defense that Shanahan left and then endorse using a possible top 10 pick to take a corner with a 2nd roung grade. The defense was built back to front and people complain about this all the time but when someone else does it, people ignore it. And again, they used what was possible a top 10 pick to take a CB and one with a 2nd round grade at that.

Taco John
06-11-2009, 09:35 AM
What could have been? Another three years of mediocre football?

You didn't have a problem with mediocre football when your boyfriend Plummer was throwing playoff games away and was being carried by the defense to go anywhere.

Taco John
06-11-2009, 09:37 AM
Well, the Manning helmed Colts improved from 3-13 to 13-3 his second year.

And when did McD ever say he didn't need "talented QB's"? I'd love to see that quote.

He didn't say that with a quote. He said it by replacing Cutler with Simms and Orton.

fdf
06-11-2009, 09:44 AM
Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year

We are missing impact players on defense but you don't always get those guys by going out and spending money...you groom guys and keep them around for a string of years to build locker room cohesiion and respect...i dont think we've had that in a few years (especially on defense)

Nicely said.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Stop trying to rationalize it. He wasted a high pick next year when he had ammo in the 3rd to move up to take Smith. But he used that to move up into the 2nd to take a blocking TE. The only thing that explains this move is Pat not wanting to pay for 4 1st round picks over two years, with one of them possibly being really high.

Its also hypocritical for people to complain about the defense that Shanahan left and then endorse using a possible top 10 pick to take a corner with a 2nd roung grade. The defense was built back to front and people complain about this all the time but when someone else does it, people ignore it. And again, they used what was possible a top 10 pick to take a CB and one with a 2nd round grade at that.

What was I thinking? Trying to talk about a Broncos draft pick on a Broncos draft board? Maybe the move was made in order to save money on 4 1st round picks....maybe that will give us some wiggle room when it comes to signing some FAs next year...maybe it was a move in preparation for the potential of an uncapped season...bottom line is that I trust people who are in charge of professional football teams when it comes to matters like these

It's amazing that you make everything seem so simple, but yet you offer no opinions on what we do should be doing or what we could have done...not once have I seen an informational, football related post. That's what separates you from the others that try and make posts that are anti-front office. It's just negative drivel.

fdf
06-11-2009, 10:04 AM
I loved our first round--BUT, for those who seem to think that we were not going to fair very well with Cutler either this year---now that we don't have a top 10 QB behind center---how can you justify us trading OUR #1 instead of Chicago's #1 next year for Smith?

Just a guess here. But management thought that Bly was too old to continue to perform and JMFW and Bell were not up to the task of starting. So there's yet another great big honkin' hole on D. They also thought Smith was a really, really good player who will fill that hole down the line.

So tossing caution to the winds, they ignored Mel Kiper's grade on Smith, and started trade negotiations for the pick. The team trading the pick said they wanted Denver's first and that was not negotiable. Management thought Smith was worth Denver's pick and made the trade.

Why do you think a trade involving Chicago's pick was possible? Waving a magic wand on an internet forum doesn't change reality. The team we traded with wanted Denver's first. It was give that up or lose the trade.

Trades and picks are all a crap shoot on the future. Compared to our decisions to draft George Foster, Marcus Nash, Clarrett, Moss and Willie Middlebrooks, the decision to trade for and draft Smith seems like a prudent, well-considered decision to me. Hope it turns out good.

lex
06-11-2009, 10:04 AM
What was I thinking? Trying to talk about a Broncos draft pick on a Broncos draft board? Maybe the move was made in order to save money on 4 1st round picks....maybe that will give us some wiggle room when it comes to signing some FAs next year...maybe it was a move in preparation for the potential of an uncapped season...bottom line is that I trust people who are in charge of professional football teams when it comes to matters like these

It's amazing that you make everything seem so simple, but yet you offer no opinions on what we do should be doing or what we could have done...not once have I seen an informational, football related post. That's what separates you from the others that try and make posts that are anti-front office. It's just negative drivel.


I would have used a third to move up in the 2nd to take Smith if Il Duce just had to have him. And then I would have waited on Quinn. Its highly doubtful that it was necessary to take him in the 2nd. But there is no way I would have used that 1st in 2010 to take a player with a 2nd round grade. If Pat doesnt want to spend the money on that pick, Id wait until next year to deal it. Maybe by then Pat changes his mind. That way we also hold onto our flexibility to move around in the first round. We could have combined those 1st round picks to move up and take a cornerstone player. But now we dont have that flexibility at all. Even if Smith turns out to be a good player, it doesnt justify trading that pick when you consider we had the ammo to get him without trading that pick.

What would I have done? I wouldnt have traded that pick. I would have used the 2nd and the 3rd to move up for him if he was such an absolute must have. To waste a 1st on Smith to spare those 3rds so you can move up and get Quinn is backwards. Youre going to have a hard time convincing anyone otherwise.

Also, Ive already said that Pat needs to sell the team. Im sick of his lies and complaining about the economics of the NFL. When he bought the team, it was for, what, 2XX million dollars? Now its worth over a billion and he is starting to kvetch about money way too much. Sure, he denies money was why they traded that 1st but when you look at other things, it makes a lot of sense. So, he should really just sell the team already. He threw us under the bus. Plus, how ****ed up is it that he buys a team thats orange and blue and he hates the color orange? Now we have Joe Ellis running the team because Pat is listening to him. A marketing guy is making decisions on coaches. Now we get to see advertisements on practice jerseys. Pat just needs to shut the **** up and sell the team if its such a hardship for him. So getting back to the point I was intending to make, its hard to say what I would do because you have an owner who has gone the way Pat has.

Traveler
06-11-2009, 10:11 AM
I think you're in complete denial about how bad the team was and how hopeless the situation on defense was going to be under Shanahan. Mike killed the golden goose when he axed Coyer. Here are Shanahan's defensive rankings for his time here:

Points000Yards
1995 17 15
1996 7 4
1997 6 5
1998 8 11
1999 11 7
2000 23 24 - Greg Robinson Fired
2001 21 8
2002 15 6 - Ray Rhodes fired
2003 9 4 - Larry Coyer era begins
2004 9 4
2005 3 15
2006 8 14 - Larry Coyer era ends
2007 28 19 - Bates
2008 30 29 - Slowik

This offense went to hell once Gary Kubiak went to Houston. Before Kubiak we always had our points in the top ten. After Kubiak we never cracked the top half of the league again. Post Kubiak our winning record was exactly .500. And our special teams has been in the bottom of the league for over a decade.

But if that wasn't enough, how was getting 52 points hung on us by the Chargers on national tv? That was more than they hung on us when we lost at home the year before 3-41 or on the road 3-23. That's to say nothing of getting raped by the Patriots on MNF 7-41 or the freaking LIONS 7-44!

This little quote is priceless:

Yeah! That's it! Just throw money at the problem and in one offseason it would go away! Why didn't we try that? Oh yeah, WE DID!!! Every offseason we signed everyone and their mom and threw a bunch of draft picks at the problem and it failed horribly. I love your comment about Moss and Crowder not panning out like Shanahan should get sympathy for that because they didn't when he drafted them and traded up to acquire them in the first place. That's not something we should give him a pass on, it's an indictment.


And this idea that with the money and picks we could fixed things enough is hilarious. Tell me, who would we have brought in and drafted under Shanahan that would overwhelmed the defense with so much talent that even Slowik wouldn't be able to make it suck? Who is getting this 30 million of the available players this year and who are we drafting that magically make the defense so talented even Bob Slowik, modern history's worst defensive coordinator, could not mess it up? Even if we brought anyone in, our coaching staff was so gloriously inept that anyone with any talent would have been unable to develop it at all!

And let's not forget that Slowik was Shanahan's guy. He proudly declared he would be back next season after we got embarrassed on national TV and that there would be "NO CHANGE" in the defense. This after being the first team to blow a three game division lead with the tree games to spare because we couldn't beat the crappy Buffalo Bills in our own house.

Shanahan is gone, and it's a good thing for both parties. Shanahan had lost perspective and the team was horrible. Middle of the road offense in scoring, worst defense in the league, worst defense in team history, historic records for worsts in the franchise and NFL history, horrible special teams that never got better.

The team didn't just need "a guy to fix the defense and we'd be fine". The team needed to be gutted and started anew. The entire culture and paradigm needed shifting and it has begun. Will it work? I think it might but no one really knows yet. However something new had to be done and that we're at least trying that is a step in the right direction. No more home loses. No more national embarrassment beat downs. No more finesse teams. No more football stupid players ala Jamie Winborn, or guys made of glass that someone linger on the team ala Nate Jackson. We're moving on, and I'm glad.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii273/Papi728/422805c6.jpg

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 10:12 AM
I would have used a third to move up in the 2nd to take Smith if Il Duce just had to have him. And then I would have waited on Quinn. Its highly doubtful that it was necessary to take him in the 2nd. But there is no way I would have used that 1st in 2010 to take a player with a 2nd round grade. If Pat doesnt want to spend the money on that pick, Id wait until next year to deal it. Maybe by then Pat changes his mind. That way we also hold onto our flexibility to move around in the first round. We could have combined those 1st round picks to move up and take a cornerstone player. But now we dont have that flexibility at all. Even if Smith turns out to be a good player, it doesnt justify trading that pick when you consider we had the ammo to get him without trading that pick.

What would I have done? I wouldnt have traded that pick. I would have used the 2nd and the 3rd to move up for him if he was such an absolute must have. To waste a 1st on Smith to spare those 3rds so you can move up and get Quinn is backwards. Youre going to have a hard time convincing anyone otherwise.

Also, Ive already said that Pat needs to sell the team. Im sick of his lies and complaining about the economics of the NFL. When he bought the team, it was for, what, 2XX million dollars? Now its worth over a billion and he is starting to kvetch about money way too much. Sure, he denies money was why they traded that 1st but when you look at other things, it makes a lot of sense. So, he should really just sell the team already. He threw us under the bus. Plus, how ****ed up is it that he buys a team thats orange and blue and he hates the color orange? Now we have Joe Ellis running the team because Pat is listening to him. A marketing guy is making decisions on coaches. Now we get to see advertisements on practice jerseys. Pat just needs to shut the **** up and sell the team if its such a hardship for him. So getting back to the point I was intending to make, its hard to say what I would do because you have an owner who has gone the way Pat has.


Ok...I agree with the Quinn pick. That one had me perplexed as any pick we've made in recent memory (even the Moss trade up and pick made more sense). However, I dont think we are going to have a top 5 pick next year..and I also don't think McDaniels would want to draft a QB (a cornerstone player) next year. I think that Moreno fills that need and we will be building the offense around him.

I think we will be anywhere from 9-16 with our draft position next year. In that sense doesnt it make a bit of a rational arguement that Smith (with an extra year of experience int he NFL) could make sense there?

As far as Bowlen, I'm starting to agree with you there. It seems as though we went from having a clear cut organizational profile to a situation where there are so many hands in the jar that there tends to be some misdirection (not personnel wise, but in regards to franchise direction). However, I'll take an owner who is somewhat frugal with his money at times than a guy like Snyder who brings in guys like DeAngelo Hall with ridiculous contracts.

so we agree that the Quinn pick is something we are both confused about...thats a good start for us right?

TheReverend
06-11-2009, 10:14 AM
Just a guess here. But management thought that Bly was too old to continue to perform and JMFW and Bell were not up to the task of starting. So there's yet another great big honkin' hole on D. They also thought Smith was a really, really good player who will fill that hole down the line.

So tossing caution to the winds, they ignored Mel Kiper's grade on Smith, and started trade negotiations for the pick. The team trading the pick said they wanted Denver's first and that was not negotiable. Management thought Smith was worth Denver's pick and made the trade.

Why do you think a trade involving Chicago's pick was possible? Waving a magic wand on an internet forum doesn't change reality. The team we traded with wanted Denver's first. It was give that up or lose the trade.

Trades and picks are all a crap shoot on the future. Compared to our decisions to draft George Foster, Marcus Nash, Clarrett, Moss and Willie Middlebrooks, the decision to trade for and draft Smith seems like a prudent, well-considered decision to me. Hope it turns out good.

Can I ask you something?

Why do you think Seattle was so dead set on making sure it was OUR first rounder next year and not Chicago's?

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 10:17 AM
Can I ask you something?

Why do you think Seattle was so dead set on making sure it was OUR first rounder next year and not Chicago's?

I'm going to take your bait...

Because they think Chicago will have a better record.....its a safer bet

I don't agree with that neccessarily

TheReverend
06-11-2009, 10:21 AM
Ok...I agree with the Quinn pick. That one had me perplexed as any pick we've made in recent memory (even the Moss trade up and pick made more sense). However, I dont think we are going to have a top 5 pick next year..and I also don't think McDaniels would want to draft a QB (a cornerstone player) next year. I think that Moreno fills that need and we will be building the offense around him.

I think we will be anywhere from 9-16 with our draft position next year. In that sense doesnt it make a bit of a rational arguement that Smith (with an extra year of experience int he NFL) could make sense there?

As far as Bowlen, I'm starting to agree with you there. It seems as though we went from having a clear cut organizational profile to a situation where there are so many hands in the jar that there tends to be some misdirection (not personnel wise, but in regards to franchise direction). However, I'll take an owner who is somewhat frugal with his money at times than a guy like Snyder who brings in guys like DeAngelo Hall with ridiculous contracts.

so we agree that the Quinn pick is something we are both confused about...thats a good start for us right?

No. It doesn't. The names in that range (or just outside of it): Aaron Ross, Dominique Rogers-Cromartie, Carlos Rogers, Darrelle Revis, Antonio Cromartie.

That's the top group of young corners in the league with Asomugha - 31st overall being the ONLY outlier as far as draft position. But he also came in a stronger draft and is 6 ft 2.

Smith HAS to play to the level of the aforementioned names to have been worth it. Period.

Names of players we're like missing out on next season: A franchise QB, Brandon Spikes, and franchise NT in Cody.

TheReverend
06-11-2009, 10:22 AM
I'm going to take your bait...

Because they think Chicago will have a better record.....its a safer bet

I don't agree with that neccessarily

Everyone and their mother thinks Chicago will have a better record outside of this forum...

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 10:25 AM
Everyone and their mother thinks Chicago will have a better record outside of this forum...


That may be true...but thats because nobody outside of this forum has been following the teams moves....they'll know about Dawkins but not that we signed Goodman, or that Nolan should help us improve ....or that Gaffney knows the offense

it's the little things that I think will help this team be competetive this year

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 10:29 AM
That may be true...but thats because nobody outside of this forum has been following the teams moves....they'll know about Dawkins but not that we signed Goodman, or that Nolan should help us improve ....or that Gaffney knows the offense

it's the little things that I think will help this team be competetive this year

The sports writers have been folowing the moves, that is thier job. I am sure there are a few that are just winging it, "reporting" that bad is usually rooted in lazy research, but most have been watching us closely, new coach, new QB, like it or not, we are under the magnifying glass right now. The vast majority of those writers have us around 26, and the Bears in the top 15.

lex
06-11-2009, 10:29 AM
Ok...I agree with the Quinn pick. That one had me perplexed as any pick we've made in recent memory (even the Moss trade up and pick made more sense). However, I dont think we are going to have a top 5 pick next year..and I also don't think McDaniels would want to draft a QB (a cornerstone player) next year. I think that Moreno fills that need and we will be building the offense around him.

I was actually talking more along the lines of defense. If we are at 9-16 as you say, we could use that plus the other pick to move up and take someone like Cody,...or whoever. But now that flexibility is gone...just so we could spare our picks to move up to take Quinn.

I think we will be anywhere from 9-16 with our draft position next year. In that sense doesnt it make a bit of a rational arguement that Smith (with an extra year of experience int he NFL) could make sense there?

See above. And actually, Im not really such a fan of drafting a CB at the beginning of a process where youre trying to improve a defense. I didnt like the way our defense was built back to front and Im not changing now just because it Il Duce doing it and not Shanahan. I like Smith a lot as a player but theres more involved than that.

As far as Bowlen, I'm starting to agree with you there. It seems as though we went from having a clear cut organizational profile to a situation where there are so many hands in the jar that there tends to be some misdirection (not personnel wise, but in regards to franchise direction). However, I'll take an owner who is somewhat frugal with his money at times than a guy like Snyder who brings in guys like DeAngelo Hall with ridiculous contracts.

Its not either or. Theres only one Dan Snyder (actually Jerry Jones is a lot like him). But most owners are not like that. Im really not willing to cut Bowlen any slack on this between his lies and complaining.

so we agree that the Quinn pick is something we are both confused about...thats a good start for us right?

Im really glad that we drafted a TE who can run block. But its where we selected him and obviously what we gave up to take him there. I hat Il Duces offense but Im at least glad he is aiming to improve the running game. It was a direction I thought the team should have taken in last years draft. Our running game was something that we lost our way with the past couple years and I also think that had we had a better running game last year, the results would have been different. But Shanahans ego about just being able to plug anyone in, bit him in the ass last year. But thats what you get when you rely old guys and young guys who cant finish the season (Young and Torain). The lack of a running game was why we couldnt finish drives. Its also why Cutler had less leeway when locking onto Marshall. Defenses only had to respect the run when Hillis was in there. It was sad. But having said all that. I liked Shanahans running game schematically a lot more than I like Il Duces.

bpc
06-11-2009, 10:30 AM
Are you ready to move forward? It doesnt seem like it from the second part of that paragraph.

In my opinion we acquired a BUNCH of guys that can help the future/preent state of the team...the big splash names like Moreno are going to make headlines but I like the Goodman pickup and the Gaffney signing....THe team has a lot of pieces in place on both sides of the ball, the question is going to be how quickly we can put it together. THAT should be the merit that Josh's job is based off of this year....Who could we have nabbed this year that we passed on? I'm just interested.

I don't believe we mortgaged the future of the team at all...Cutler wanted out, we got what we could in return...simple business. We can talk about what happened before that until we turn blue, but fact of the matter is that at one point we had to move forward and I think we got what we could. Alphonso is going to be groomed under Champ and guys like McBath are going to be groomed under Dawkins...thats PERFECT forward looking planning when it comes to the team..somethjing I felt Shanahan was missing....he was always picking up guys that helped us immediately and it cost us at time...he needed to move like that because the pressure was on him to win, so you can't blame him for that.

Let me make 3 things clear about my opinion on the team:

1) We will not surprise the world this year
2) We would not have made the playoffs with Jay this year
3) We should not judge the state of the franchise off of this year

We are missing impact players on defense but you don't always get those guys by going out and spending money...you groom guys and keep them around for a string of years to build locker room cohesiion and respect...i dont think we've had that in a few years (especially on defense)

I like Moreno, don't love him. I have concerns if he'll ever be able to stay healthy in the NFL and that in turn makes me doubt that he'll ever be a workhorse for us. Taking somebody at 12, that is what I would expect. I hope I'm wrong. He's a good kid with a great head on his shoulders.

Goodman/Gaffney seem like nice fill in guys but Goodman is what, a 8 year vet already? If he was great, Parcells would have kept him. He's probably a good leadership type guy but 5 picks you saw is a career aberation, something he's never done before and probably never will do again. We signed him to a 5 year 25 million contract with 10 mill guaranteed. That's a reach to me for a guy who has 12 career interceptions in 8 seasons.

Gaffney is part-time player who knows McDaniels system. He's not going to make or break this team. He's gonna spot Stokely when he needs a rest. That's basically it. He won't start over BMarsh or Royal.

Don't agree on the pieces in place that you speak of. I see a lot of pieces out of place which usually coincides with a 4-3 team trying to switch to a 3-4 team. We have holes all along the front 7.

You ask who we could have grabbed? Pick a selection. If Orton and Simms flop with this great system, some solid HB's, WR's and a great OL, we'll be wishing we could take a QB. I'm not saying i'm a huge fan of any of these guys but no doubt, McCoy, Bradford, and Jevon Snead are all probably going to be a top 15 picks in next Aprils draft. If we need a deep threat a la Randy Moss who really made the NE offense get upon his arrival, we could have had somebody like a Dez Bryant in round 1. He's looking to be a Larry Fitzgerald like WR who excels at catching the long ball. Look up and down the front 7 of our defense.... Carlos Dunlap, Terrence Cody, Gerald McCoy. All could step in and be phenominal 3-4 type players in a area where we need TONS of help. Taylor Mays and Eric Berry project as two of the best safety prospects to come out in the past 5 years in a position where we have sucked the last couple years vs. the pass and run.

I'm over the Cutler deal but Jay only wanted out after we tried to move him and he couldn't trust McDaniels anymore. I don't really blame him considering that his position was going to be directly tied the HC we just brought in to run his offense. If they couldn't co-mingle, it was only going to get worse. McDaniels made the first move. That will never change despite the spins by Cutler haters around here.

Overall your argument is solid especially the latter few paragraphs but I do think that Denver could have made the playoffs this year w/ Jay. SD isn't getting any better and we had a bunch of pieces to help improve the defense including DJ and Champ returning to the lineup this year healthy.

Without Jay at least we could have had a few strong draft pieces coming up to at least help prop our future up with in a very deep draft class. Instead sacrificed that to make an immediate splash with a player (Smith) who may have very limited upside.

Just my thoughts though.

TheReverend
06-11-2009, 10:31 AM
That may be true...but thats because nobody outside of this forum has been following the teams moves....they'll know about Dawkins but not that we signed Goodman, or that Nolan should help us improve ....or that Gaffney knows the offense

it's the little things that I think will help this team be competetive this year

:spit:

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Just a guess here. But management thought that Bly was too old to continue to perform and JMFW and Bell were not up to the task of starting. So there's yet another great big honkin' hole on D. They also thought Smith was a really, really good player who will fill that hole down the line.

So tossing caution to the winds, they ignored Mel Kiper's grade on Smith, and started trade negotiations for the pick. The team trading the pick said they wanted Denver's first and that was not negotiable. Management thought Smith was worth Denver's pick and made the trade.

Why do you think a trade involving Chicago's pick was possible? Waving a magic wand on an internet forum doesn't change reality. The team we traded with wanted Denver's first. It was give that up or lose the trade.

Trades and picks are all a crap shoot on the future. Compared to our decisions to draft George Foster, Marcus Nash, Clarrett, Moss and Willie Middlebrooks, the decision to trade for and draft Smith seems like a prudent, well-considered decision to me. Hope it turns out good.

Ever hear of Andre Goodman? Thanks for playing.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 10:38 AM
I like Moreno, don't love him. I have concerns if he'll ever be able to stay healthy in the NFL and that in turn makes me doubt that he'll ever be a workhorse for us. Taking somebody at 12, that is what I would expect. I hope I'm wrong. He's a good kid with a great head on his shoulders.

Goodman/Gaffney seem like nice fill in guys but Goodman is what, a 8 year vet already? If he was great, Parcells would have kept him. He's probably a good leadership type guy but 5 picks you saw is a career aberation, something he's never done before and probably never will do again. We signed him to a 5 year 25 million contract with 10 mill guaranteed. That's a reach to me for a guy who has 12 career interceptions in 8 seasons.

Gaffney is part-time player who knows McDaniels system. He's not going to make or break this team. He's gonna spot Stokely when he needs a rest. That's basically it. He won't start over BMarsh or Royal.

Don't agree on the pieces in place that you speak of. I see a lot of pieces out of place which usually coincides with a 4-3 team trying to switch to a 3-4 team. We have holes all along the front 7.

You ask who we could have grabbed? Pick a selection. If Orton and Simms flop with this great system, some solid HB's, WR's and a great OL, we'll be wishing we could take a QB. I'm not saying i'm a huge fan of any of these guys but no doubt, McCoy, Bradford, and Jevon Snead are all probably going to be a top 15 picks in next Aprils draft. If we need a deep threat a la Randy Moss who really made the NE offense get upon his arrival, we could have had somebody like a Dez Bryant in round 1. He's looking to be a Larry Fitzgerald like WR who excels at catching the long ball. Look up and down the front 7 of our defense.... Carlos Dunlap, Terrence Cody, Gerald McCoy. All could step in and be phenominal 3-4 type players in a area where we need TONS of help. Taylor Mays and Eric Berry project as two of the best safety prospects to come out in the past 5 years in a position where we have sucked the last couple years vs. the pass and run.

I'm over the Cutler deal but Jay only wanted out after we tried to move him and he couldn't trust McDaniels anymore. I don't really blame him considering that his position was going to be directly tied the HC we just brought in to run his offense. If they couldn't co-mingle, it was only going to get worse. McDaniels made the first move. That will never change despite the spins by Cutler haters around here.

Overall your argument is solid especially the latter few paragraphs but I do think that Denver could have made the playoffs this year w/ Jay. SD isn't getting any better and we had a bunch of pieces to help improve the defense including DJ and Champ returning to the lineup this year healthy.

Without Jay at least we could have had a few strong draft pieces coming up to at least help prop our future up with in a very deep draft class. Instead sacrificed that to make an immediate splash with a player (Smith) who may have very limited upside.

Just my thoughts though.

ok...well formed thought-out argument and I agree witha lot of it. My only gripe is that switchign from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is going to take at least a year and a half. This year is going to be a mess on defense, not gonna lie. I watched first hand around here hwo the Jets were compeltely lost last year when they first switched over...lots of missed assignments, guys playing passively, etc....However, thats why Nolan is here. No one guy was goign to help us speed this process up.

I think the "immediate splash" that you talk about is exactly the opposite when it comes to Smith. I think we are hoping in 2-3 years that he will be on the level of the guys Rev mentioned above. In that case it makes sense to take him where we did.

SD is getting worse and the Chiefs and Raiders are young and getting better. I think as a franchise we bit the bullet a bit in the present to prepare us to compete when the division changes dramatically (2 years)...SD will have to do the same thing very soon and make tough decisions on "win now" or "win in the future"

lex
06-11-2009, 10:42 AM
ok...well formed thought-out argument and I agree witha lot of it. My only gripe is that switchign from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is going to take at least a year and a half. This year is going to be a mess on defense, not gonna lie. I watched first hand around here hwo the Jets were compeltely lost last year when they first switched over...lots of missed assignments, guys playing passively, etc....However, thats why Nolan is here. No one guy was goign to help us speed this process up.

I think the "immediate splash" that you talk about is exactly the opposite when it comes to Smith. I think we are hoping in 2-3 years that he will be on the level of the guys Rev mentioned above. In that case it makes sense to take him where we did.

SD is getting worse and the Chiefs and Raiders are young and getting better. I think as a franchise we bit the bullet a bit in the present to prepare us to compete when the division changes dramatically (2 years)...SD will have to do the same thing very soon and make tough decisions on "win now" or "win in the future"


The vultures in the media are already circling. Between them and the fans, it may not go that far.

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 10:45 AM
The vultures in the media are already circling. Between them and the fans, it may not go that far.

If Bowlen were to pull the plug on this regime too quickly it coudl set the franchise back a long way.

I know someone is going to replace "were to pull" with "doesnt pull" for effect but going through two managerial overhauls in a short period of time cripples teams.....we had small glimpses of that with our DC switches, put that on a much larger scale

TonyR
06-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Ever hear of Andre Goodman? Thanks for playing.

McD had to face Goodman and Hill twice a year. I think he was in a slightly better position than you to make well informed decisions about both players. That's not to say that either will be All Pros (they won't) or that they were the best we could have realistically done at their respective positions (they probably aren't) but both are solid upgrades.

lex
06-11-2009, 10:53 AM
If Bowlen were to pull the plug on this regime too quickly it coudl set the franchise back a long way.

I know someone is going to replace "were to pull" with "doesnt pull" for effect but going through two managerial overhauls in a short period of time cripples teams.....we had small glimpses of that with our DC switches, put that on a much larger scale

But does Pat really want to be the guy responsible for ending the sell out streak?...or even seeing an empty stadium thats sold out...which would make a mockery of the streak. Its all on him if that happens. Pats really worried about money. Thats why he sent that spin letter after they traded Cutler. Losing fans sets the franchise back too and its something that is a bigger black eye than replacing a coach too soon. I think Pat will stick with Il Duce as long as he can because with all the controversy, Il Duce has caused Pat to dig in and entrench himself. And so admitting he was wrong would make him feel like a bigger fool (after entrenching himself). It would be more about Pats pride than anything.

But, no. Sticking with the wrong coach too long sets the team back more than trying to find the right coach.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 10:56 AM
McD had to face Goodman and Hill twice a year. I think he was in a slightly better position than you to make well informed decisions about both players. That's not to say that either will be All Pros (they won't) or that they were the best we could have realistically done at their respective positions (they probably aren't) but both are solid upgrades.

Alphonso Smith is not worth a top 10-15 1st round pick--especially when you factor in the signing of Goodman.

lex
06-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Alphonso Smith is not worth a top 10-15 1st round pick--especially when you factor in the signing of Goodman.

Yeah, he is trying to have it both ways but what he is really doing is contradicting himself.

If the Goodman pick is so solid, then that calls the Smith pick. If you endorse the Smith pick, then what does that say about Goodman? You cant have it both ways.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Yeah, he is trying to have it both ways but what he is really doing is contradicting himself.

If the Goodman pick is so solid, then that calls the Smith pick. If you endorse the Smith pick, then what does that say about Goodman? You cant have it both ways.

Unless McD plans on trading Champ after this season if Champ can remain injury free for a whole season(maximize his value)---but even then it doesn't justify trading OUR #1 next year for Smith--especially not when we had Chi's to play with...if Sea wouldn't budge--move onto plan B.

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 11:15 AM
If Bowlen were to pull the plug on this regime too quickly it coudl set the franchise back a long way.

I know someone is going to replace "were to pull" with "doesnt pull" for effect but going through two managerial overhauls in a short period of time cripples teams.....we had small glimpses of that with our DC switches, put that on a much larger scale

Well, I have a lot of questions about McDaniels and am in the "he needs to prove it" camp, but at the same point in time I definately say he should get a true chance to prove it. We won't really have concrete proof in the first year, there will be indicators as to wether the moves are positive or not. The second year should be much more informative, but not necessarily conclusive, but he definately needs to do something by the third. A complete team breakdown for the next two years with no signs of improvement would probably be enough for me, but if there isn't an absolute implosion I say he should get three even though I am not fond of how he is doing things. Also despite my skepticism it won't take much to turn me around, a winning season this coming season would do it, heck I would be amazed at 7-9. A playoff appearance in the next two would do it, winning a playoff game in the next three. I don't think that is unreasonable, but I also doubt it will be accomplished.

Edited PS. The absolute last thing we need is a coaching carousel, this is one we can not afford to jump the gun on.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 11:18 AM
...what he is really doing is contradicting himself.


How so? To begin with I wasn't even discussin the Smith pick. But even if I was...



You cant have it both ways.

Sure you can. Goodman is for the present, Smith is for the future. Plus, if you know even a little bit about modern NFL football, you know that 3 CB's are utilized extensively.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, I have a lot of questions about McDaniels and am in the "he needs to prove it" camp, but at the same point in time I definately say he should get a true chance to prove it. We won't really have concrete proof in the first year, there will be indicators as to wether the moves are positive or not. The second year should be much more informative, but not necessarily conclusive, but he definately needs to do something by the third. A complete team breakdown for the next two years with no signs of improvement would probably be enough for me, but if there isn't an absolute implosion I say he should get three even though I am not fond of how he is doing things. Also despite my skepticism it won't take much to turn me around, a winning season this coming season would do it, heck I would be amazed at 7-9. A playoff appearance in the next two would do it, winning a playoff game in the next three. I don't think that is unreasonable, but I also doubt it will be accomplished.

Edited PS. The absolute last thing we need is a coaching carousel, this is one we can not afford to jump the gun on.

I think that it is without question (barring a 3-13 or worse season) that McD gets at least 2 years......2 years to make the playoffs.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:21 AM
How so? To begin with I wasn't even discussin the Smith pick. But even if I was...



Sure you can. Goodman is for the present, Smith is for the future. Plus, if you know even a little bit about modern NFL football, you know that 3 CB's are utilized extensively.

Yeah, but the post that you quoted me on was regarding the drafting of Smith--RE: Why draft Smith with our #1 next year when we had just signed Goodman.........

lex
06-11-2009, 11:22 AM
How so? To begin with I wasn't even discussin the Smith pick. But even if I was...




Sure you can. Goodman is for the present, Smith is for the future. Plus, if you know even a little bit about modern NFL football, you know that 3 CB's are utilized extensively.

Future? CB one position where they actually contribute soon...not unlike RB. Youre really not making sense with this garbage reply. Try again.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 11:30 AM
Future? CB one position where they actually contribute soon...not unlike RB. Youre really not making sense with this garbage reply. Try again.

Wow, you're even more dense than I thought.

Many factors to consider. First and foremost is one that I already mentioned (and you conveniently ignored): 3 CB's are utilized extensively. You really need 3 quality CB's in today's NFL. Plus there's the fact that Champ can't stay healthy and that he isn't getting any younger. Smith will be a present day contributer and a future (perhaps later this season, perhaps next year) full time starter. It's really not that difficult to figure out. Even you can probably get it if you try really hard.

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 11:31 AM
I think that it is without question (barring a 3-13 or worse season) that McD gets at least 2 years......2 years to make the playoffs.

Actually I can see 3-13 or even 2-14 him staying for the next season, if the team has a rough start, loses the first three games, but then shows signs of improvement as the year progresses I would keep him for another season. With the schedule and teams we are facing, it is very possible that even if we have a competitive team, we could still lose 11 of the last 13. SDx2, Pitt, Balt, NE, Ind, Dal, NYG, Phi, Was, KC @ KC. Lot of playoff teams from the past two years in that mix, and an always tough division rivallry game at thier stadium...

lex
06-11-2009, 11:33 AM
Wow, you're even more dense than I thought.

Many factors to consider. First and foremost is one that I already mentioned (and you conveniently ignored): 3 CB's are utilized extensively. You really need 3 quality CB's in today's NFL. Plus there's the fact that Champ can't stay healthy and that he isn't getting any younger. Smith will be a present day contributer and a future (perhaps later this season, perhaps next year) full time starter. It's really not that difficult to figure out. Even you can probably get it if you try really hard.


Many factors indeed and it all hinges not on having CBs...again. LOL. Back to front, once again. No, if you use a pick that high on a CB, youd expect him to play right away.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:39 AM
Actually I can see 3-13 or even 2-14 him staying for the next season, if the team has a rough start, loses the first three games, but then shows signs of improvement as the year progresses I would keep him for another season. With the schedule and teams we are facing, it is very possible that even if we have a competitive team, we could still lose 11 of the last 13. SDx2, Pitt, Balt, NE, Ind, Dal, NYG, Phi, Was, KC @ KC. Lot of playoff teams from the past two years in that mix, and an always tough division rivallry game at thier stadium...

WOW. I missed the memo that our expectations are supposed to be tapered down to the level of Chiefs & Raider fans----The Apocalypse is near. We were 7-9 & 8-8--not 2-14 & 3-13. Bowlen will deserve 2 or more games of 3/4 empty stadiums if our record is going to be 3-13 or worse

TonyR
06-11-2009, 11:40 AM
...if you use a pick that high on a CB, youd expect him to play right away.

Um, he will play right away. Do I need to mention the 3 CB's thing again?!? Really?!? You're usually not quite this dumb, what's up?

lex
06-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Um, he will play right away. Do I need to mention the 3 CB's thing again?!? Really?!? You're usually not quite this dumb, what's up?

Yeah, please explain it again. It wont make sense the second time but I enjoy watching the sheep blindly endorse every thing that has happened.

BroncoInSkinland
06-11-2009, 11:44 AM
WOW. I missed the memo that our expectations are supposed to be tapered down to the level of Chiefs & Raider fans----The Apocalypse is near. We were 7-9 & 8-8--not 2-14 & 3-13. Bowlen will deserve 2 or more games of 3/4 empty stadiums if our record is going to be 3-13 or worse

I know, I am not really crazy about it either, but I think it would be a huge mistake to let him go based off a simple slow start to the season. If the slow start happens, but visible signs of improvement are present towards the end of the year, I can understand keeping him around for another shot at it.

Mediator12
06-11-2009, 11:46 AM
Yeah, please explain it again. It wont make sense the second time but I enjoy watching the sheep blindly endorse every thing that has happened.

Try teams play 50% of their defensive snaps from the nickle. So, playing right away would be geting half the snaps every game in the nickle and even starting games against INDY, NE, NO, and others that also play the spread.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Try teams play 50% of their defensive snaps from the nickle. So, playing right away would be geting half the snaps every game in the nickle and even starting games against INDY, NE, NO, and others that also play the spread.

Thanks, Med. I'm sure special ed teachers have it less difficult.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Try teams play 50% of their defensive snaps from the nickle. So, playing right away would be geting half the snaps every game in the nickle and even starting games against INDY, NE, NO, and others that also play the spread.

So what? He still was not worth a top 10-15 pick in next year's draft! He wasn't even worth that in THIS YEAR'S relatively WEAK Draft.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 11:53 AM
So what? He still was not worth a top 10-15 pick in next year's draft! He wasn't even worth that in THIS YEAR'S Draft.

I like the pick but am with you in not being thrilled with what we gave up to get it. But the thing is we don't yet know either what we gave up or what we got. Patience, grasshopper.

barryr
06-11-2009, 11:55 AM
For the 100th time, or more, the Broncos were not headed for greatness anytime soon. The defense was terrible for years now and so were the special teams. Why expect them to magically get better in a year or two under the same coaching staff? The drafting of players on the defensive side of the ball was terrible too, but that wass going to get better just like that? People need to stop living in dreamland.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:56 AM
I like the pick but am with you in not being thrilled with what we gave up to get it. But the thing is we don't yet know either what we gave up or what we got. Patience, grasshopper.

I would have been relatively content giving up Chicago's #1--but our's? With our bleak outlook? I was disgusted then and I still am not too keen on that idea. I hope he pans out........I am looking forward with MUCH anticipation for this year's training camp reports.....it shall be very interesting........

lex
06-11-2009, 11:57 AM
Try teams play 50% of their defensive snaps from the nickle. So, playing right away would be geting half the snaps every game in the nickle and even starting games against INDY, NE, NO, and others that also play the spread.

The two most important players in a 3-4 are the NT and the rush LB. We by-passed taking a NT this year. People spin it as it being a case that there were no worthy NTs. OK, but trading that pick takes away our flexibility to move up and take a NT next year.

I only mention that because if you cant stop the run it doesnt matter. And if you cant pressure the QB, then it doesnt matter who you have at CB. I guess some of you werent watching the past couple of years.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 11:58 AM
For the 100th time, or more, the Broncos were not headed for greatness anytime soon. The defense was terrible for years now and so were the special teams. Why expect them to magically get better in a year or two under the same coaching staff? The drafting of players on the defensive side of the ball was terrible too, but that wass going to get better just like that? People need to stop living in dreamland.


Why do you assume I did not want Shanny fired? How are we who supported Cutler somehow automatically grouped together with those who wanted Shanny to stay?

vancejohnson82
06-11-2009, 12:03 PM
Why do you assume I did not want Shanny fired? How are we who supported Cutler somehow automatically grouped together with those who wanted Shanny to stay?

BF7....that just seems to be how people have aligned themselves...

I'm a McD supporter who was COMPLETELY against the Shanny firing and I get grouped in with the 'Fire SHanny" crowd

Traveler
06-11-2009, 01:53 PM
Not that folks can't air their concerns, but, I still don't get how folks here can judge players and coaches before they've even seen them in action.

TonyR
06-11-2009, 01:59 PM
...I still don't get how folks here can judge players and coaches before they've even seen them in action.

McD hurt Jay's feelings and didn't properly massage his ego. Therefore he's a terrible coach, will fail miserably, and should be fired now. Oh, and he also didn't entirely rebuild the defense in one offseason. And Pat Bowlen is drunk. And gutless. And the sky isn't falling, it's fallen.

lex
06-11-2009, 02:09 PM
Its interesting, regarding the 2007 New England team, that all the sheep like to leg hump. They only averaged 22 pts a game in the playoffs, which speaks to a concern I have with McDaniels' offense.

broncofan7
06-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Not that folks can't air their concerns, but, I still don't get how folks here can judge players and coaches before they've even seen them in action.

NON opinionated people are BORING. Especially on fan message boards.......

TonyR
06-11-2009, 04:50 PM
Its interesting, regarding the 2007 New England team, that all the sheep like to leg hump. They only averaged 22 pts a game in the playoffs, which speaks to a concern I have with McDaniels' offense.

Does it really need to be pointed out here that you generally play better defenses in the playoffs, particularly the deeper you go, and so your scoring average is very likely going to go down? You don't play Pittsburgh and Baltimore every week in the regular season. So no, really not all that interesting.

lex
06-11-2009, 06:06 PM
Does it really need to be pointed out here that you generally play better defenses in the playoffs, particularly the deeper you go, and so your scoring average is very likely going to go down? You don't play Pittsburgh and Baltimore every week in the regular season. So no, really not all that interesting.


Our 1998 team averaged more than they did in the regular season. We played 3 teams in the top 5 in scoring and 3 teams in the top 10 in yardage...and we won every game going away...we could have scored more. Also, check out the 94 Niners. In other words Shanahan could put together a great offense. A great offense gets it done against good teams when it matters. New Englands offense flows substantially through one play and the mismatches from spreading the field run into problems against better defenses and I can see this being a problem.