Religion is killing the world

[Atlas]

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[snowspot66]

It's unfortunate that he went the way of a hackjob with that film. It really could have been a good piece. He interviewed some very highly educated people that could have made a very interesting intellectual debate. Instead he gave them only a minute or two of time in the final edit and gave the rest to the idiots that don't have any deeper understanding of their faith and Mahr merely had to know a little bit more than they did to make them look like complete idiots.

I can't say I'm surprised but I think an opportunity was wasted.

[watermock]

Wow, Bill Mahers and a bunch of pentactols, I'm impressed.

[Meck77]

Bird flu, swine flu, end of times....Eh whatever.

Hopefully when it all comes to an end I'll have a fishing pole in one hand and a PBR in the other.

Bring it!

[spdirty]

Hmmm. Didnt know that by going to the mountain resource center for a couple hours on Sunday, doing a study about a book, singing, praying for people that are in dire straits and need it, going for an hour on Wednesday and studying and making friends, eating lunch, giving my kids unquestionably good values I was killing the world, but whatever.

Some people say I kill the world by driving my truck around and eating meat too.

[orinjkrush]

Amen, brother, Amen.

[Kid A]

It's unfortunate that he went the way of a hackjob with that film. It really could have been a good piece. He interviewed some very highly educated people that could have made a very interesting intellectual debate. Instead he gave them only a minute or two of time in the final edit and gave the rest to the idiots that don't have any deeper understanding of their faith and Mahr merely had to know a little bit more than they did to make them look like complete idiots.

I can't say I'm surprised but I think an opportunity was wasted.

Agreed. There is certainly room for a high quality, thoughtful, even entertaining film criticizing religion, but this wasn't it. There are plenty of skeptics/agnostics/atheists who could make balanced, intellectually satisfying film, but Maher just isn't one of them. Instead he made a film far too much like the crap coming from the other side, leaning on guerilla tactics and interviews with unsuspecting, unintellectual representatives.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Hmmm. Didnt know that by going to the mountain resource center for a couple hours on Sunday, doing a study about a book, singing, praying for people that are in dire straits and need it, going for an hour on Wednesday and studying and making friends, eating lunch, giving my kids unquestionably good values I was killing the world, but whatever.

Some people say I kill the world by driving my truck around and eating meat too.

when the "good values" you teach your children come from the bronze age, yeah its not a good thing
May not kill the world, but it wont help it progress

Religion is dogma, dogma is bad
Pretty much anyone who has ever taken an anthropology class would agree with me on that

[spdirty]

when the "good values" you teach your children come from the bronze age, yeah its not a good thing
May not kill the world, but it wont help it progress

Religion is dogma, dogma is bad
Pretty much anyone who has ever taken an anthropology class would agree with me on that

so should we ban it?

[Br0nc0Buster]

so should we ban it?

no, people should be free to practice whatever they want as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others

[BroncoBuff]

Religion is definitely not a force for good. I don't agree religion is "killing the world," but it's definitely not helping. It's a form of righteous tribalism ... with the emphasis on "righteous."

[epicSocialism4tw]

Religion is definitely not a force for good. I don't agree religion is "killing the world," but it's definitely not helping. It's a form of righteous tribalism ... with the emphasis on "righteous."


Hmmm...lets see...

If "religion is definitely not a force for good", then it would be impossible for good to come through it. Lets ignore for a moment the uncountable stories of lives changed for the better, and focus on a few historically significant examples.

1) American Civil Rights movement. It came largely through the Protestant Black Churches and influenced whites through the White Churches of the South. Its main progenitor was a pastor. Make no mistake...the movement gained traction by setting its feet in the church. Conviction is a wonderful thing. Repentance is even better.

2) The Reformation

3) Modern Extistentialism - was pioneered by Soren Kirkegaard, who laid the blueprints for today's most popularly advocated philosophy by making arguments under an eponym through local publications. He wanted to challenge the minds of both religious and non-religious persons alike and did so in a very interesting way.

...etc...etc...etc.



Point being...you are totally limiting yourself by making such hyperbole a crux of your premise. Saying that nothing good comes from religion is probably one of the most glaring examples of bigoted overexaggeration that I have seen on this site. It reveals nothing other than your own biases, and every statement that you make regarding the subject from here forward should be taken with this massive block of salt in consideration.

You are obviously upset at organized Christianity for some undisclosed reason. You seek these threads out and your displeasure spills into them like hot iron. Why is that?

Personally, I have never been a 'big church' guy and likely never will be. I dont like pews, I dont like people being fake, I don't like seeing a pastor drive a mercedes, and I dont like knowing that the pastor drives a mercedes while the missions committee struggles to put together projects to effect the community because of lack of funds. There are all sorts of things that you could be upset about in one church or another. So I found a place that I liked. I grew up having small group church in my home. The important thing is to find people whose friendship you trust, and to serve. Its not all about 'me'. I would say that 99% of what you have control over in your spiritual life is giving of youself for the betterment of others. Once you get there, you really start to see things from the right vantage.

Also, it helps to look at those people in your church (the fake gossipers, the mercedes-driving pastor) as other sinners who deserve your mercy. Many people are turned off to church because they put those types of people on a pedestal and end up disappointed. I cant think of a person who has never disappointed me. Why should I expect more of those church people? The greatest, most godly person I have ever known has disappointed me several times. It taught me a good lesson. They are just like you. They need your prayer and support just as much as anyone else.

[Rohirrim]

Religion = Superstition

[TailgateNut]

so should we ban it?
YEP!^5

[TailgateNut]

no, people should be free to practice whatever they want as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others


Aw, come on. Let's just ban it!

[TailgateNut]

other sinners who deserve your mercy. .


Could you show me some mercy, for I have sinned.Hilarious!

[BroncoBuff]

If "religion is definitely not a force for good", then it would be impossible for good to come through it.
Your deductive reasonaing skills are broke.



I cant think of a person who has never disappointed me.

The greatest, most godly person I have ever known has disappointed me several times.
I did not alter these two quotes above ... they are exactly as you wrote them.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Your deductive reasonaing skills are broke.

Sorry man, but you made the following statement: "Religion is definitely not a force for good."

The term "definite" qualifies "religion" as something that cannot under any circumstance act as a conduit for what you call "good". You made the statement, and it is foolhardy. I thought that you said that you had legal training? Shouldnt you know to be more intentional with your language?

[spdirty]

Could you show me some mercy, for I have sinned.Hilarious!

you just made my prayer list.

[AbileneBroncoFan]

Hmmm...lets see...

If "religion is definitely not a force for good", then it would be impossible for good to come through it. Lets ignore for a moment the uncountable stories of lives changed for the better, and focus on a few historically significant examples.

1) American Civil Rights movement. It came largely through the Protestant Black Churches and influenced whites through the White Churches of the South. Its main progenitor was a pastor. Make no mistake...the movement gained traction by setting its feet in the church. Conviction is a wonderful thing. Repentance is even better.

Religion is not necessary to make the logical connection that discrimination based on skin color or gender is not ethical or beneficial to society. However, plenty of religious people did believe and still believe those things. Why simply because that's how their parents did, and their parents before them, etc. Yes, people such as Martin Luther King Jr. do break the mold and think for themselves, but many religious people hold the opinion that their dogmas are absolutely true and everyone else's are not: without any tangible evidence whatsoever. The Civil Rights movement was conceived and fought by men, not by any god or divine force. If an omnipotent god was behind it, I am not impressed because it took him/her/it far too long to get it started and accomplished. I will concede that the social networking offered by religion does allow people to mobilize all over the country to get things done once it is deemed necessary. Which is why homosexual couples do not enjoy the same rights as heterosexual couples. Religious idealism is the only widespread justification for this discrimination. However, as with segregation, it is only a matter of time before equal marital/union rights are granted for all.

2) The Reformation

I'm not sure where you're going with this. The most apparent result of the Reformation (aside from the variety of dogmas we know of today) was extreme violence and persecution. The 30 Years War was one of the most devastating wars in human history, and at least 1/3 of all of the population of the Germanic territories was killed during it. Intense religious fighting and persecution was also in France, where thousands of innocent civilians were killed in the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre alone. All of this was done under the banner of religion and God (although economic and political gains were at stake as well). True, it did eventually lead to religious toleration (but distrust and hate remain even up to this day), but the cost in human lives was extremely high, and it was a cost that would not have needed to be paid if people did not place faith as the greatest aspect of human life and convince themselves that they must take foolish action in defense of it. Also, it can be argued that the secularists (Locke, Rousseau, Paine, Jefferson, etc.) had more to do with religious toleration than the religious teachers (Calvin and Luther), who despite breaking from the Catholic Church still found it necessary to impose morals on communities and to execute "heretics," something that could only be done under strict dogmatic belief (religious or political).

3) Modern Extistentialism - was pioneered by Soren Kirkegaard, who laid the blueprints for today's most popularly advocated philosophy by making arguments under an eponym through local publications. He wanted to challenge the minds of both religious and non-religious persons alike and did so in a very interesting way.

You fail to mention that the atheist and anti-Christian Friedrich Nietzsche was just as much as, if not more, of a pioneer of existentialism than Kierkegaard. Sartre (another atheist) was more important than either of them, and his writings on existentialism in Being and Nothingness are the principle texts on the subject. Kierkegaard also believed that a leap of faith was necessary and a good thing, and that Abraham would have been justified in killing his own son had God not interfered, and that people should be willing to take similar leaps of faith. I certainly would not want a leader to take a "leap of faith" when deciding whether or not to launch a nuclear attack. It is this belief that someone is doing "God's will" that is what allows for terrorism; be it Al Qaeda or more recently, the terrorist who shot the abortion doctor. In a church no less. What great morals these religious people have.

Point being...you are totally limiting yourself by making such hyperbole a crux of your premise. Saying that nothing good comes from religion is probably one of the most glaring examples of bigoted overexaggeration that I have seen on this site. It reveals nothing other than your own biases, and every statement that you make regarding the subject from here forward should be taken with this massive block of salt in consideration.

I actually agree here. Hating religion does no good, because it does provide many good things for people. The social networking and support help people get through life, and spiritual meditation (whether it gives "answers from God" or not) does clear one's mind and allow for thinking or relaxation. These things should not be hated nor done away with. However, these things should not be taken as absolute truth nor should they be forced onto others.

Personally, I have never been a 'big church' guy and likely never will be. I dont like pews, I dont like people being fake, I don't like seeing a pastor drive a mercedes, and I dont like knowing that the pastor drives a mercedes while the missions committee struggles to put together projects to effect the community because of lack of funds. There are all sorts of things that you could be upset about in one church or another. So I found a place that I liked. I grew up having small group church in my home. The important thing is to find people whose friendship you trust, and to serve. Its not all about 'me'. I would say that 99% of what you have control over in your spiritual life is giving of youself for the betterment of others. Once you get there, you really start to see things from the right vantage.

Again, I agree. I do not pretend to have the answers to whether or not God exists nor what he/she/it would have us do. I would conjecture that he would want us to live as best we can and that in terms of "salvation," that would be enough. I don't think eating a cracker and drinking wine on Sundays would really do anything for or against you in that regard. Being a good human being would. If any of it matters at all. I have a great mistrust of large churches/gatherings because I know that they don't have the answers they pretend to have and because as a general rule, the larger the group of people, the less they think rationally for themselves. That is when injustices are done.

As for what you yourself do in your spiritual life, I think it is an admirable thing, but I would question whether or not we need Christianity or Judaism or Islam to do such a thing. When you say that "the important thing is to find people whose friendship you trust, and to serve. Its not all about 'me'. I would say that 99% of what you have control over in your spiritual life is giving of youself for the betterment of others. Once you get there, you really start to see things from the right vantage," you hit the nail on the head. I just fail to see why Christianity is necessary for people to come together and do those things. There is no reason that people of all faiths, races, and nationalities cannot do this exact thing right now, other than our foolish prejudices.


Also, it helps to look at those people in your church (the fake gossipers, the mercedes-driving pastor) as other sinners who deserve your mercy. Many people are turned off to church because they put those types of people on a pedestal and end up disappointed. I cant think of a person who has never disappointed me. Why should I expect more of those church people? The greatest, most godly person I have ever known has disappointed me several times. It taught me a good lesson. They are just like you. They need your prayer and support just as much as anyone else.

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, and everyone in between are all human. All of us bleed red blood, all of us have dreams and hopes, hopefully all of us have things that we love. And all of us fail (I don't call it "sin" in the traditional meaning of the word). I personally do not expect perfection out of anyone, but what I hope that I can expect one day is that everyone will try their best to treat others well and to live as best they can, be it under whichever philosophy they choose. Many on this board and I will not agree theologically or politically on most things, as anyone who reads these posts can attest to. However, I would hope that if there was something such as a food drive going on, we would all come to contribute to helping out fellow human beings or each other if the situation calls for it. That, more than any religious dogma, is the path to true spiritual greatness.

[BroncoBuff]

Sorry man, but you made the following statement: "Religion is definitely not a force for good."

The term "definite" qualifies "religion" as something that cannot under any circumstance act as a conduit for what you call "good". You made the statement, and it is foolhardy. I thought that you said that you had legal training? Shouldnt you know to be more intentional with your language?

I didn't say "never" a force for good ... of course religion is often a force for good. But overall, no, it's not.

Small picture, it's good.

Big picture, it's bad.

[BroncoBuff]

Good local ...

Bad global.

[Garcia Bronco]

People are religious. You'll just have to find a way to deal with it, because it's not going anywhere.

[barryr]

The majority of people who are religious don't cause problems for people. Just as much as the athiests and such don't want "God" rammed down their throat, doesn't mean they get to ram their beliefs down others as well. You can't have it both ways.

[Bob]

Good local ...

Bad global.

I wonder if faith is bad if it influences on a global level...I admit that too often good things are hyjacked to do evil acts. MLK was influenced by faith, and influenced national issues in a positive way, Ghandi also in India. I have more concerns when religion is used as a political weapon/tool -- (politics or war masked under a cloak of faith, when faith becomes indistinguishable from one's politics.

[Bob]

The majority of people who are religious don't cause problems for people. Just as much as the athiests and such don't want "God" rammed down their throat, doesn't mean they get to ram their beliefs down others as well. You can't have it both ways.

Like the gay movement: they talk tolerance, but their actions communicate a willingness of the small minority to terrorize and oppress the majority.

They say that those of faith do the same thing, and bring up isolated recent events as an example how the average chuch goer acts or thinks... or cite or mass slaughters from 1000 AD, but usually ignore those acts of the secular faiths like the USSR that murdered millions, and strangely focus on Christains and Jews, while ignoring Islam (when according to PEW polls) with young males -- violence (at a rate of 25%) and feel that violence is ok against non-military targets ...

You are right, the want it both ways -- why is it we can own our history and admitt to short-comings, and wickediness done in the name of God, while they cannot bring themselves to admitt that oppression sadly is common to the human experience -- religious and secular --

[Bob]

Aw, come on. Let's just ban it!

There are a few other things that need to be banned first, red meat, decent cars, those earning "too much," talk radio, free speech and plastic bags at the check-out stand. But dont worry, they will get to those oppressive Christains soon...

[Rohirrim]

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-on-beach.jpg

[Atlas]

I wonder if faith is bad if it influences on a global level...I admit that too often good things are hyjacked to do evil acts. MLK was influenced by faith, and influenced national issues in a positive way, Ghandi also in India. I have more concerns when religion is used as a political weapon/tool -- (politics or war masked under a cloak of faith, when faith becomes indistinguishable from one's politics.


You have a point ,. but on the other hand there was bible thumping southerners that murdered and tried to destroy what King was doing. A lot of the southern white churches in the 60's openly preached rascism.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You have a point ,. but on the other hand there was bible thumping southerners that murdered and tried to destroy what King was doing. A lot of the southern white churches in the 60's openly preached rascism.

There were factions pitted against each other, and the people who wanted to de-segregate won out. The civil rights movement was basically the excision of a tumor from within the church...and the surgery was done by the church itself.

This is an example of how good can come through the church and effect the general populace in a positive manner.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You are right, the want it both ways -- why is it we can own our history and admitt to short-comings, and wickediness done in the name of God, while they cannot bring themselves to admitt that oppression sadly is common to the human experience -- religious and secular --

You are exactly right.

An attempt to isolate it as a symptom of religion is making a correlation that is hardly worthy of academic aknowledgement.

Most academic pursuits of this issue are from the perspective of "even the great religions can make horrible mistakes", which is true. But when you come to the table with the flimsy premise of "religion makes nothing but horrible mistakes" like some in this thread have, then you arent even making a salient point.

Christianity is founded on the fact that religions make horrible mistakes. The crucifixion of Jesus is taken by the religion as a horrible act by religious people. Christians see themselves as the people who crucified Jesus. It is a horrible mistake that encapsulates mans attitude toward God in general. We kill God daily. Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection illustrated an important point to us...that despite the fact that people are prone to making mistakes, God still loves us enough to not only put up with us, but to pursue us.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Like the gay movement: they talk tolerance, but their actions communicate a willingness of the small minority to terrorize and oppress the majority.


you cant be this stupid

[Br0nc0Buster]

I think the point is being missed that religion is dogma, and dogma is bad.
To complain about the USSR or Islam is just a deflection, but of course Christians have a persecution complex they have to uphold

Some people may be inspired by their religious delusions to do good things, but that doesnt prove the religion is correct, or prove that believing in things without evidence is a good thing

The reason "faith" gets such praise is because that is all religions have, and that is all they can stress. But faith is just an excuse when reasons fail

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think the point is being missed that religion is dogma, and dogma is bad.
To complain about the USSR or Islam is just a deflection, but of course Christians have a persecution complex they have to uphold

Some people may be inspired by their religious delusions to do good things, but that doesnt prove the religion is correct, or prove that believing in things without evidence is a good thing

The reason "faith" gets such praise is because that is all religions have, and that is all they can stress. But faith is just an excuse when reasons fail


Ha!

You have an awful lot of faith in your system of truth, and an awful lot of arrogance regarding it.

I think that a huge problem with people in the generations born somewhere in the early 80's and forward is that they have an unhealthy, unrealistic view of the world around them. They are walled in by these illusions. An illusion that everything is known or can be known on one side, an illusion that there is one way to know on the other.

People with only a vague knowledge of science come up with this stuff because any in-depth study of science (one where your career depends on it) teaches you very early on that WE KNOW NOTHING! In Zoology, we are just only now beginning to formulate phylogenetics that incorporate genetics...and it is screwing up the whole system! It will take a bunch of work to iron out the kinks...and they may not be ironed out in your lifetime. In human physiology, we now understand many of the major neural incorportative areas of the cortex, but we dont know a whole lot about many of the vital areas of many parts of the brain, including the breathing centers.

One of the most significant accomplishments by mankind was the eradication of the smallpox virus from the human population. This is only one "bug", albeit a devastating one. There is much that we dont know about the immune system. it is only in the last 100 years that we have even really understood anything at all about it.

These are only a few of the problems in biology that I can think of off the top of my head.

Point being, opinions like yours regarding what is or isnt true are not those held by people with educations in the subjects that you no doubt depend on to get your truth.

[Rohirrim]

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n164/Mikah_Ver_Leth/christian_oppression_pie1.png

[epicSocialism4tw]

People have been making great discoveries all througout human history.

I think that this generation may be the only one that looks at itself in the mirror and says: "I now know it all".

[Br0nc0Buster]

Ha!

Point being, opinions like yours regarding what is or isnt true are not those held by people with educations in the subjects that you no doubt depend on to get your truth.

actually this couldnt be further from the truth
The National Academy of Sciences is almost unanimously atheist

"Point being", studies show there is a direct inverse correlation between religious beliefs and education

[AbileneBroncoFan]

I do not believe any intelligent person from my generation will say that they know everything. However, we do have the potential to know anything. Any high school graduate today will know more about more things than 99% of all people who lived 300 years ago.

As for what destroys society, it is unjustified dogma. The dogma that one faith is right or better than all others, that one government is supreme, or that one people is better. Whenever you have "faith" in unjustifiable dogmas, that is where the door is opened for atrocities.

[Fedaykin]

Like the gay movement: they talk tolerance, but their actions communicate a willingness of the small minority to terrorize and oppress the majority.


What actions communicate this? What is terrorizing about atheists? How can a small minority effectively oppress a super majority?


They say that those of faith do the same thing, and bring up isolated recent events as an example how the average chuch goer acts or thinks... or cite or mass slaughters from 1000 AD, but usually ignore those acts of the secular faiths like the USSR that murdered millions, and strangely focus on Christains and Jews,


Secular Faith? Is that like a large midget, or a black white?


while ignoring Islam (when according to PEW polls) with young males -- violence (at a rate of 25%) and feel that violence is ok against non-military targets ...


Islam is not ignored, it's merely not a big an influence around these parts, thus get's less attention.


oppression sadly is common to the human experience -- religious and secular --

Agreed

[epicSocialism4tw]

actually this couldnt be further from the truth
The National Academy of Sciences is almost unanimously atheist

"Point being", studies show there is a direct inverse correlation between religious beliefs and education

You have absolutely zero support for your assertion.

Firstly, the association that you quoted is a group of likeminded people with equivalent goals. it makes sense that they have a number of the same beliefs. Your appeal to authority for there is like asking the choir for an amen.

This seems to be a common crutch for people who hate religion. They appeal to the sciences as if they are a place of refuge, when in fact, the sciences are filled with great minds of faith. Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindi, whatever. The greatest physicists? A devout Christian and a Jew. The greatest Chemists? Christians. The greatest Biologists? There are representatives here of all faiths.

What you are suggesting reveals your own hatred, and not any picture of what things are like in the sciences. Remember, universities are not the only places that science is done. It is also performed in industry, and that's where you'll find the best.

You need to learn tolerance.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I do not believe any intelligent person from my generation will say that they know everything. However, we do have the potential to know anything.

You illustrated my point beautifully.

The simple idea that humans are capable of understanding everything is ridiculous by all counts. There are subtleties in nature that will never be perceived by humans as they are perceived even by other animals. The likely hood that humans will crack even the surface of what lies beneath quantum motion is very thin for the foreseeable future. Man with all of his current technology and insight cannot figure out why certain particles track the way they do. Unless another Newton comes along and reveals these things to us, we wont know.

However, people claim the possibliity of gaining this knowledge as a trait that can be attributed to themselves, when this is very likely not the case.

Any high school graduate today will know more about more things than 99% of all people who lived 300 years ago.

This is a complete falsehood.

People of today know about different things. Put some of todays people in the rainforest and ask them to survive to reproduce and rear their young, and you would find alot of dead folks. This is just one small example of how what you know is different from what another person knew in a different generation. What you do by making such judgments is to reveal your own lack of wisdom and an excess of vanity.

[Br0nc0Buster]

You have absolutely zero support for your assertion.

Firstly, the association that you quoted is a group of likeminded people with equivalent goals. it makes sense that they have a number of the same beliefs. Your appeal to authority for there is like asking the choir for an amen.



Scientists know more about the universe and how it works than the average person. I am simply showing you the people who know the most are for the most part nonreligious. Of course they are exceptions, but religion is more popular among the uneducated and the unintelligent, and its not just a coincidence.

And yeah scientists do have a common goal, to actually understand things instead of rely on some guys interpretation of bronze age myths.

I dont hate religion, its just a meme.
I hate stupidity, which is what religion thrives on

[Br0nc0Buster]

You have absolutely zero support for your assertion.



Actually I do, funny how you demand support when someone criticizes religion, but have no problem just assuming 2000 years ago some guy walked on water and flew into the sky after his death.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/iq_relig.htm

These are literally the first 3 that popped up from "studies religious beliefs intelligence" from google.

You might as well consider it a fact, lower IQ or education = higher likelyhood of believing in bronze age myths.

[footstepsfrom#27]

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-on-beach.jpg
Where'd you get that hat?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Scientists know more about the universe and how it works than the average person.

Ha! That's not saying much, as the average human has very little education.

Obviously, you are not a scientist, nor do you know any. A proper scientist without some petty agenda like the "religion is bad" agenda being thrown around this thread like a child parading some imaginary accomplishment would never say such a thing. Why? Because there is so much that is unknown. Not only that, but because there are other people in other disciplines of knowledge that have shown to know quite a bit about alot of things.

The way that people interact (sociology) is not a science, but a humanistic study. Those people learn quite a bit about an aspect of the universe. The study of the tendancies in human behavior (psychology) is not a science, it is a humanistic study as well. Those people learn quite a bit about human behavior, which is no doubt a part of the universe.

There are well-educated experts in many different fields, including that of philosophy which looks down onto science from a vantage where science is only one small piece of a much bigger puzzle.

I am simply showing you the people who know the most are for the most part nonreligious. Of course they are exceptions, but religion is more popular among the uneducated and the unintelligent, and its not just a coincidence.

Wrong again.

You are choosing words like "nonreligious", but how would your hypothetical survey look if you changed that term to "spiritual"?

Nearly every PhD, MD, MS, DO, PA, etc. I know would consider themselves either "spiritual", "religious", or both. I know many, many of them and have had conversations with nearly all of them about the subject.

I know for a fact that your categorization is that of an agenda-driven truth-bender and should be discarded by anyone with a couple of functional brain cells. The minute that you throw the greatest scientists out the window because they were religious and/ or spiritual is the minute that you put yourself back into the "bronze age" as you seem so fond of.


And yeah scientists do have a common goal, to actually understand things instead of rely on some guys interpretation of bronze age myths.

That is not the goal of the academy. That is a political and social organization. Wake up.

I dont hate religion, its just a meme.
I hate stupidity, which is what religion thrives on

If you hate stupidity, then surely your not too proud of yourself for your stubborn show of stupidity regarding this subject. Religion doesnt thrive on such things, but instead it appeals to the greater aspects of man. Integrity, honesty, truthfulness, humility, mercy, strength, etc. Which are things that you and your legion of non-religious scientists could learn from. You pretend to love knowledge but clearly despise wisdom.

[AbileneBroncoFan]

You illustrated my point beautifully.

The simple idea that humans are capable of understanding everything is ridiculous by all counts. There are subtleties in nature that will never be perceived by humans as they are perceived even by other animals. The likely hood that humans will crack even the surface of what lies beneath quantum motion is very thin for the foreseeable future. Man with all of his current technology and insight cannot figure out why certain particles track the way they do. Unless another Newton comes along and reveals these things to us, we wont know.

However, people claim the possibliity of gaining this knowledge as a trait that can be attributed to themselves, when this is very likely not the case.

To say that some things are impossible for us to know is foolish indeed. Some of the greatest minds in history have been quick to declare things impossible. Lord Kelvin declared that an atomic bomb would be impossible, yet many countries now have them. You prove my point perfectly with your particle analysis. No, we don't know everything, but I guarantee you at some point someone will discover what's really happening at the subatomic level. That will in turn raise more questions to which new people will search for and find answers to. It is a continual process. It is never going to end, but it's not going to hit a permanent dead end either.



This is a complete falsehood.

People of today know about different things. Put some of todays people in the rainforest and ask them to survive to reproduce and rear their young, and you would find alot of dead folks. This is just one small example of how what you know is different from what another person knew in a different generation. What you do by making such judgments is to reveal your own lack of wisdom and an excess of vanity.

Really, so the guys who said that the plague was caused by God as a result of sin and heretics knew oh so much about how things worked. Doctors who decided that the best way to treat sick patients by "bleeding" them were right on. Hell, most people 300 years ago couldn't even read. Now there are 5 year olds that can. Sure, they may could have survived in the forest better than the average man today can, but it is because of our increased knowledge that we don't have to. I also was not aware that knowledge is what allows creatures to survive in the wild. If so, then chimpanzees are "smarter" than all of us.

[Br0nc0Buster]

learn[/I] from. You pretend to love knowledge but clearly despise wisdom.

I am done, I learned a while ago that you never actually say anything, you just repeat the same stuff over and over and pretend like it becomes true because you think so. You dont ever actually bring any intelligent arguments or *gasp* evidence to any discussion. It is my fault for thinking you could actually discuss a topic with at least some rationality

I am not talking about the people you know, I am talking about the general public, and the studies back my claims up 100% of the way. I KNOW that there are intelligent and educated religious people, I never said there werent. I have backed my claims up with studies and cold hard evidence.

There is no logic behind assumptions without a shred of evidence, your attempt to deflect that by naming educated people who share your delusion is nothing but a poor and desperate attempt to justify why you view the world through the eyes of bronze age goat herders.

Its funny how everyone who disagrees with religion is seen as "angry", classic indocrination, assume those who dont share your beliefs do so out of spite, assume we are "out to get you"

[epicSocialism4tw]

To say that some things are impossible for us to know is foolish indeed. Some of the greatest minds in history have been quick to declare things impossible. Lord Kelvin declared that an atomic bomb would be impossible, yet many countries now have them. You prove my point perfectly with your particle analysis. No, we don't know everything, but I guarantee you at some point someone will discover what's really happening at the subatomic level. That will in turn raise more questions to which new people will search for and find answers to. It is a continual process. It is never going to end, but it's not going to hit a permanent dead end either.

We have zero certainty as to whether or not the planet will be around in its current incarnation until that happens. Have you ever heard of the KT event? Google it.


Really, so the guys who said that the plague was caused by God as a result of sin and heretics knew oh so much about how things worked. Doctors who decided that the best way to treat sick patients by "bleeding" them were right on. Hell, most people 300 years ago couldn't even read. Now there are 5 year olds that can. Sure, they may could have survived in the forest better than the average man today can, but it is because of our increased knowledge that we don't have to. I also was not aware that knowledge is what allows creatures to survive in the wild. If so, then chimpanzees are "smarter" than all of us.

You wont have this attitude when you become more mature. I dont mean that as an insult. You have alot of youthful exuberance. Your expectations and reflections on the world around you, your place in it, and our collective place in it will become more well rounded as you gain more perspective.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I am done, I learned a while ago that you never actually say anything, you just repeat the same stuff over and over and pretend like it becomes true because you think so. You dont ever actually bring any intelligent arguments or *gasp* evidence to any discussion. It is my fault for thinking you could actually discuss a topic with at least some rationality

I am not talking about the people you know, I am talking about the general public, and the studies back my claims up 100% of the way. I KNOW that there are intelligent and educated religious people, I never said there werent. I have backed my claims up with studies and cold hard evidence.

There is no logic behind assumptions without a shred of evidence, your attempt to deflect that by naming educated people who share your delusion is nothing but a poor and desperate attempt to justify why you view the world through the eyes of bronze age goat herders.

Its funny how everyone who disagrees with religion is seen as "angry", classic indocrination, assume those who dont share your beliefs do so out of spite, assume we are "out to get you"

Ha!

We'll just put it this way...I dont have to appeal to authority.

[Rohirrim]

Ha!

We'll just put it this way...I dont have to appeal to authority.

You are a very silly person. ;D

[BroncoBuff]

Like the gay movement: they talk tolerance, but their actions communicate a willingness of the small minority to terrorize and oppress the majority.

You have it entirely backwards. I might agree about the militancy of some elements of the gay movement, but the non-religious (or atheists as you call them) are not even a cohesive group, much less one that "terrorizes" the religious. That's just nutty, Bob.

It's sad that you think the establishment clause of the First Amendment constitutes "terrorism" against the religious. It's even a little pathetic.

[TailgateNut]

You have it entirely backwards. I might agree about the militancy of some elements of the gay movement, but the non-religious (or atheists as you call them) are not even a cohesive group, much less one that "terrorizes" the religious. That's just nutty, Bob.

It's sad that you think the establishment clause of the First Amendment constitutes "terrorism" against the religious. It's even a little pathetic.


Didn't you know that we "non-believers" gather every tuesday night to plan attacks on the nearby churches. :rofl:

[BroncoBuff]

And it's also sad that you express such anger and indignance, and believe you're being "terrorized" by this small, disorganized group of the non-religious. After all, Jesus taught tolerance above all else. Forgiveness, acceptance and tolerance.

But, like I was posting last week, the majority of the religious - especially the evangelicals - are not so concerned with the substance of Jesus' teachings. Rather they find comfort in the rigid, conforming authority of religion ... the feeling of "belonging" within a societally-defined "tribal" group. The problem for the rest of us is that the imprimatur of "The Saviour of all Mankind" imbues your tribe's goals with an inordinate righteousness. And THAT is what's dangerous ... THAT is what everyone from Thomas Jefferson to Barry Goldwater warned us against.


I have seen the enemy, and the enemy is .... Bob ;D

[Bob]

You have a point ,. but on the other hand there was bible thumping southerners that murdered and tried to destroy what King was doing. A lot of the southern white churches in the 60's openly preached rascism.

And you wont get an aurgument from me on that one, as it is true.

As of 2009 my contention is that intolarance (that rises to the level of hate) in America seems to have a bigger and more vocal place at the table of secularism. I am not an expert about middle eastern affairs and culture, which seems to blend relligion into the fabric of government with no seperation at all. Theocracies thus far (historically speaking) often result in tyrany, but in looking at so many governments through the ages, when did they not want to control their people with a stick (or much worse) if "need" be? If you know how China put down the student uprisings (was it in 89?) one can see another, more recent example of mass abuse of a secular government. God does not need to be envoked to create a bad guy of innocent populations.

[Bob]

you cant be this stupid

Watch TV lately?

Any churces broke into?

Anyone loose jobs, and have to leave the state of California for their opinion only?

[epicSocialism4tw]

You are a very silly person. ;D


Moreso than you know.

[Bob]

And it's also sad that you express such anger and indignance, and believe you're being "terrorized" by this small, disorganized group of the non-religious. After all, Jesus taught tolerance above all else. Forgiveness, acceptance and tolerance.

But, like I was posting last week, the majority of the religious - especially the evangelicals - are not so concerned with the substance of Jesus' teachings. Rather they find comfort in the rigid, conforming authority of religion ... the feeling of "belonging" within a societally-defined "tribal" group. The problem for the rest of us is that the imprimatur of "The Saviour of all Mankind" imbues your tribe's goals with an inordinate righteousness. And THAT is what's dangerous ... THAT is what everyone from Thomas Jefferson to Barry Goldwater warned us against.


I have seen the enemy, and the enemy is .... Bob ;D

I do think we are seing the tyrany of the idelogical minority -- yes. Terrorism is a strong word like enemy, and used for rhetorical effect.

[Atlas]

There were factions pitted against each other, and the people who wanted to de-segregate won out. The civil rights movement was basically the excision of a tumor from within the church...and the surgery was done by the church itself.

This is an example of how good can come through the church and effect the general populace in a positive manner.

Ok, I can accept that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> Betty Bowers Explains Prayer to Everyone Else
http://www.bartcop.com/bowers-prayer.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5QqEmBi8iw&feature=related)
Click to Watch 4 minute video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5QqEmBi8iw&feature=related)
Prayer -- asking invisible ghosts for stuff
you're too lazy to get for yourself!
</center>

[BroncoBuff]

I do think we are seing the tyrany of the idelogical minority -- yes. Terrorism is a strong word like enemy, and used for rhetorical effect.

Great post there, really :thumbs:

Totally agree on "terrorism," it was used to scare citizens into accepting and not questioning.

[Bronco Yoda]

bump :flower:

[Rohirrim]

There is a god.

He gives you eyes,
but tells you not to trust what you see.

He gives you ears,
but tells you not to trust what you hear.

He gives you a mind,
but tells you not to trust what you think.

He gives you the ego,
and then tells you not to believe
in yourself.

He places you in a miraculous world,
and then tells you it is a false world,
which you should not believe in.

He tells you that only his world is true,
but won't take you there.
You must simply believe in its existence.
Those who refuse to believe in it
are doomed.

He fills you with the sensations
of this brilliant world,
but tells you that to indulge in the beauty of your sensations
is a false path.

He tells you he is
the god of peace,
but allows His creation to be filled with atrocities.

In other words,
he preaches against the illusion,
and yet,
who but he sustains the illusion?

He preaches against the false world,
and yet he continues to people it,
and sustain it,
for age after age.

He tells you to come to him
With the heart of a child,
But he comes to you as a trickster.

He plays a game,
that only he
is allowed to enjoy.

He works in mysterious ways.

[alkemical]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY0ersv8saU

Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand

Fools like me,who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep,for their beliefs
Do you kill on god's command?

A country that's divided
Surely will not stand
My past erased,no more disgrace
No foolish naive stand

The end is near,it's crystal clear
Part of the master plan
Don't look now to israel
It might be your homelands

Holy wars
Upon my podium,as the
Know it all scholar
Down in my seat of judgement
Gavel's bang,uphold the law
Up on my soapbox,a leader
Out to change the world
Down in my pulpit as the holler
Than-thou-could-be-messenger of god

Wage the war on organized crime
Sneak attacks,repel down the rocks
Behind the lines
Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die

They killed my wife,and my baby
With hopes to enslave me
First mistake...last mistake|
Paid by the alliance,to slay all the giants
Next mistake...no more mistakes|

Fill the cracks in,with judicial granite
Because I don't say it,don't mean I ain't
Thinkin' it
Next thing you know,they'll take my thoughts away
I know what I said,now I must scream of the overdose
And the lack of mercy killings

[alkemical]

The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.

Robert Anton Wilson

[El Minion]

Like the gay movement: they talk tolerance, but their actions communicate a willingness of the small minority to terrorize and oppress the majority.


Riiigggghhhttt, christian heterosexuals are being persecuted by the LGBT community.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xjPoLypJMwA/TwjAl-T-a-I/AAAAAAAAckg/74eq5iktNz0/s400/religious%2Bfreedom%2Bcartoon.jpg

Brandon McInerney accepts your support from the terrorizing and oppression he received from openly gay and fellow student Lawrence King. Gay christian bashing must be stopped! (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-19/justice/justice_california-gay-student-killing_1_gay-student-manslaughter-gay-classmate?_s=PM:JUSTICE)

http://lezgetreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/McInerney.jpg