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cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 01:06 PM
These guys are so much faster then Indy they make them look silly for even calling that racing.

Put on Fox and check it out. This stuff is worth getting into, money, women, fast cars, what more could you ask for. I've never seen athletes with hotter wives and G/F's then Formula One.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 01:35 PM
These guys are so much faster then Indy they make them look silly for even calling that racing.

Put on Fox and check it out. This stuff is worth getting into, money, women, fast cars, what more could you ask for. I've never seen athletes with hotter wives and G/F's then Formula One.

Please explain to me the athleticism involved.

tsiguy96
06-07-2009, 01:35 PM
Please explain to me the athleticism involved.

give it a rest, seriously. you know what hes talking about.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 01:37 PM
give it a rest, seriously. you know what hes talking about.

Serious question, douche.

Many people refer to professional drivers as athletes and I don't understand it. Now please crawl back into the whole you popped out of.

OBF1
06-07-2009, 01:38 PM
F1 has been my favorite for 25 years. Nothing like attending one in person.... WILD. Though Ferrari is down this season, I still love it.

scttgrd
06-07-2009, 01:47 PM
Are they still driving in circles?

DivineBronco
06-07-2009, 01:48 PM
sadly it doesn't seem to be in HD......seems like a given in todays sports landscape

DenverBrit
06-07-2009, 01:48 PM
These guys are so much faster then Indy they make them look silly for even calling that racing.

Put on Fox and check it out. This stuff is worth getting into, money, women, fast cars, what more could you ask for. I've never seen athletes with hotter wives and G/F's then Formula One.

Absolutely!

But to be fair, NASCAR has Chevy's and 'chewing baccy' for sponsors, some of the girls even have toofs.

gyldenlove
06-07-2009, 01:55 PM
Serious question, douche.

Many people refer to professional drivers as athletes and I don't understand it. Now please crawl back into the whole you popped out of.

With the g-forces the drivers are subjected to when cornering, breaking and accelerating they need to be in very good shape.

gyldenlove
06-07-2009, 01:56 PM
Are they still driving in circles?

Formula 1 never drove in circles, this is actual racing.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 02:01 PM
With the g-forces the drivers are subjected to when cornering, breaking and accelerating they need to be in very good shape.

I see... kind of like astronaut training? So is it more healthy and in good shape, or requiring a high level of athletic ability?

I dunno, back in high school this one kid's dad owned a Ferrari lot and got big into racing and always used to claim it was a sport and was very taxing, etc, but he was a joke at everyyyyyyyyyy sport. Jaded me to the whole concept I suppose.

OABB
06-07-2009, 02:06 PM
I see... kind of like astronaut training? So is it more healthy and in good shape, or requiring a high level of athletic ability?

I dunno, back in high school this one kid's dad owned a Ferrari lot and got big into racing and always used to claim it was a sport and was very taxing, etc, but he was a joke at everyyyyyyyyyy sport. Jaded me to the whole concept I suppose.

nope. you are right. Being taxed does not make an athlete. Otherwise I am an athlete because I run out of breath walking up the stairs(smoker)...

I think the term athlete gets overused, fro example golfers and competitive eaters get called athletes.

Anyone, i mean anyone can golf, over eat or drive a car fast. Not everyone can ride the tour de france or rush for a 1,000 yards.

They are not athletes. period.

Broncoman13
06-07-2009, 02:08 PM
Ask Jesse James what he thinks about people that are pulling constant G's. I'd guess that Indy Drivers subject themselves to 2-4 Gs routinely and occasionally have a turn or something that gets into the 5-7 range.

I certainly see your point. Not sure I consider bowlers athletes myself... but that's just me. I think you're probably on track though. Better shape than being a good athlete. Still, some people cannot condition themselves for those Gs. So it does take some physical ability.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 02:27 PM
Ask Jesse James what he thinks about people that are pulling constant G's. I'd guess that Indy Drivers subject themselves to 2-4 Gs routinely and occasionally have a turn or something that gets into the 5-7 range.

I certainly see your point. Not sure I consider bowlers athletes myself... but that's just me. I think you're probably on track though. Better shape than being a good athlete. Still, some people cannot condition themselves for those Gs. So it does take some physical ability.

There are "sports" that I consider more skills than actual athletic sports, I suppose I'm inclined to file this in the same category?

In these I think it's more practice and training, and that when someone with a good level of athleticism combines with dedicated training, they take the game to a new level. Tiger Woods for golf, as an example. And yes, I include baseball.

BroncoDoug
06-07-2009, 02:55 PM
sadly it doesn't seem to be in HD......seems like a given in todays sports landscape

Hahaha, i was just telling that to my friend, showing her all the different sports in HD, and flipped on the Formula One race to show her what nonHD looks like...

9mmbhp
06-07-2009, 03:02 PM
Many people refer to professional drivers as athletes and I don't understand it.

Having wrestled cars around tracks for fun at Porsche Club Drivers Ed events, I would not hesitate to call racing drivers athletes.

It is intense both physically and mentally and it requires many of the same skills as other sporting/athletic endeavors like golf, skiing, fencing, tennis, baseball: eye-hand coordination, visual acuity, depth perception, well developed situational & spatial awareness, rhythm & timing, split-second decision making, good reflexes, balance.

Physical conditioning helps one deal with the heat and g-forces as well as the mental concentration required for lap after lap consistency. Doing 10 laps in 15 minutes would leave me drenched in sweat and my arms/shoulders completely pumped up (no power-steering in my 911). Left leg would be worn out from shifting a heavy racing clutch and bracing against g-loads in turns. And this was just driving the course at a speed I was comfortable with, not all-out racing.

ath·lete (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/athlete)
Pronunciation:
\ˈath-ˌlēt, ÷ˈa-thə-ˌlēt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlētēs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
Date:
15th century

: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 03:13 PM
Having wrestled cars around tracks for fun at Porsche Club Drivers Ed events, I would not hesitate to call racing drivers athletes.

It is intense both physically and mentally and it requires many of the same skills as other sporting/athletic endeavors like golf, skiing, fencing, tennis, baseball: eye-hand coordination, visual acuity, depth perception, well developed situational & spatial awareness, rhythm & timing, split-second decision making, good reflexes, balance.

Physical conditioning helps one deal with the heat and g-forces as well as the mental concentration required for lap after lap consistency. Doing 10 laps in 15 minutes would leave me drenched in sweat and my arms/shoulders completely pumped up (no power-steering in my 911). Left leg would be worn out from shifting a heavy racing clutch and bracing against g-loads in turns. And this was just driving the course at a speed I was comfortable with, not all-out racing.

ath·lete (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/athlete)
Pronunciation:
\ˈath-ˌlēt, ÷ˈa-thə-ˌlēt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlētēs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
Date:
15th century

: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Repped. Precisely the explanation I was looking for

chadta
06-07-2009, 04:23 PM
racing motor cycles i have the utmost respect for anybody that can race anything, i think im in decent shape and after 15 minutes of a race im dead, i cant imagine doing it for the 2 hours those guys do

i just dont like formula 1 because its the team with the most money that wins, not so much about the driver

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 04:44 PM
I've made the argument here a number of times that there are athletic sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey, track and field, swimming, tennis, etc.), and non athletic sports (golf, bowling, pool, auto racing, etc.)

Sports require a certain balance of athletic ability and skill. Some sports require more athletic than skill (football), and some more skill than athletic ability (baseball... depending on the position). But for sports that require mostly skill and not much athletic ability, like golf, bowling, and auto racing, I wouldn't call them athletes. They are highly skilled at what they do, but what they are doing does not require much athletic ability. Walking a course does not require athletic ability. It may be tiring, but that doesn't make them athletes. Having to withstand multiple G forces is taxing on the body, but that doesn't make them athletes. It's the high level of skill that makes them great.

Peoples Champ
06-07-2009, 05:08 PM
I have been to the US grand prix in Indy, F1 racing is awesome. So many hot brazilian and european girls. They really get into it. THe cars are so much louder then Indy. I heard they go 0-100 and back down to 0 in under 5 seconds. I heard Indy cars are around 1 million dollars each while each F1 car is like 10 million. More technology and faster

azbroncfan
06-07-2009, 06:39 PM
Anyone, i mean anyone can golf, .

Really?

tsiguy96
06-07-2009, 07:12 PM
nope. you are right. Being taxed does not make an athlete. Otherwise I am an athlete because I run out of breath walking up the stairs(smoker)...

I think the term athlete gets overused, fro example golfers and competitive eaters get called athletes.

Anyone, i mean anyone can golf, over eat or drive a car fast. Not everyone can ride the tour de france or rush for a 1,000 yards.

They are not athletes. period.

everyone can ride the tour de france over a certain period of time. everyone can throw a football. everyone can throw a baseball or catch one. thats a horrible argument to make that the general public being able to do something means its not what athletes do.

its the level of what you do and if it takes physical preparedness to be able to do so. everyone can drive a car. not everyone can drive a car in 130 degree cabin temps for 2-3 hours while keeping mental clarity to not crash going 180mph within inches of other cars.

Conklin
06-07-2009, 07:31 PM
<dl><dt class="hwrd">Main Entry:</dt><dd class="hwrd">ath·lete http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?athlet02.wav=athlete%27) http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?athlet01.wav=athlete%27)</dd><dt class="pron">Pronunciation:</dt><dd class="pron"> \ˈath-ˌlēt, ÷ˈa-thə-ˌlēt\ </dd><dt class="func">Function:</dt><dd class="func">noun </dd><dt class="ety">Etymology:</dt><dd class="ety">Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlētēs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest</dd><dt class="date">Date:</dt><dd class="date">15th century</dd></dl> : a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

BroncoInSkinland
06-07-2009, 07:43 PM
With the advent and growth of competitive computer/console gaming, I do think another category of athlete will be commonly accepted in the relatively near future. There will have to be a delineation between physical athletes such as football players, wrestlers, bikers, etc. and hand/eye coordination competitors such as professional gamers, poker players, and billiard players. It will be interesting to see where some of the bleed overs such as race car drivers and bowlers are most commonly placed.

tsiguy96
06-07-2009, 07:53 PM
With the advent and growth of competitive computer/console gaming, I do think another category of athlete will be commonly accepted in the relatively near future. There will have to be a delineation between physical athletes such as football players, wrestlers, bikers, etc. and hand/eye coordination competitors such as professional gamers, poker players, and billiard players. It will be interesting to see where some of the bleed overs such as race car drivers and bowlers are most commonly placed.

well you gotta make the difference between games and sports. billiards, poker, video gmaes, they are all games. golf, racing, football are all sports.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 10:48 PM
everyone can drive a car. not everyone can drive a car in 130 degree cabin temps for 2-3 hours while keeping mental clarity to not crash going 180mph within inches of other cars.

That's a skill, not athletic ability. I'd say that the typical person is capable of driving a car for three hours in 130 degree heat at high speeds. But that person wouldn't have to skill to do it at 180 mph without crashing with cars within inches of them. Sitting in heat while performing a skill does not make somebody an athlete.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 10:53 PM
well you gotta make the difference between games and sports. billiards, poker, video gmaes, they are all games. golf, racing, football are all sports.

I'd say that billiards is a sport. A non athletic sport, but it is a sport.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:05 PM
Please explain to me the athleticism involved.

Hand eye coordination. Heart. Being in good enough shape to handle the immense g forces that occur during a race. Strength to handle a powerful machine for a whole race.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:06 PM
That's a skill, not athletic ability. I'd say that the typical person is capable of driving a car for three hours in 130 degree heat at high speeds. But that person wouldn't have to skill to do it at 180 mph without crashing with cars within inches of them. Sitting in heat while performing a skill does not make somebody an athlete.

Most people have the ability to throw a football or play a game of baseball. They just aren't very good at it. So what was your point again?

I could way more easily play outfield for dodgers then I could finish a formula race.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:09 PM
Ask Jesse James what he thinks about people that are pulling constant G's. I'd guess that Indy Drivers subject themselves to 2-4 Gs routinely and occasionally have a turn or something that gets into the 5-7 range.

I certainly see your point. Not sure I consider bowlers athletes myself... but that's just me. I think you're probably on track though. Better shape than being a good athlete. Still, some people cannot condition themselves for those Gs. So it does take some physical ability.

I think different sports require different physical abilities. But mostly we see athletes as in great shape with high endurance. IMO Formula 1 drivers have that and then some.

There actually really out of shape fatties playing football that probably could not even run a mile withouth dropping. Are they still athletes?

Crashman44b
06-07-2009, 11:17 PM
That's a skill, not athletic ability. I'd say that the typical person is capable of driving a car for three hours in 130 degree heat at high speeds. But that person wouldn't have to skill to do it at 180 mph without crashing with cars within inches of them. Sitting in heat while performing a skill does not make somebody an athlete.

LMFAO. And I'd say your wrong. If I had the money, I would gladly put you a in car and show you otherwise. After 25 miles you would be complaining about the heat. After 50 miles you would start complaining that your neck and arms hurt. Shortly after that you would pile it up in a wall because you lost focus and just wanted out of the car.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 11:19 PM
well you gotta make the difference between games and sports. billiards, poker, video gmaes, they are all games. golf, racing, football are all sports.

Golf, racing, and even baseball, I would personally group in the same category as billiards and poker. Flame away ******s.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 11:25 PM
Most people have the ability to throw a football or play a game of baseball. They just aren't very good at it. So what was your point again?

I could way more easily play outfield for dodgers then I could finish a formula race.

Yes, we have the ability to throw a football, but not with the power that an NFL QB can, because we don't have the athletic ability to do so.

I'd make the case that, as of today, I would have a better chance at making it as a race car driver than an NFL QB. I am in no way saying that it is easier to be a race car driver, or it is something that I could do with a little practice. But with the proper instruction, practice, and racing over the course of several years, is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? No, chances of it happen would be very slim. But possible? Yes! Now on the other head, I could practice with the best QB coaches there are, and with the best strength and conditioning coaches, but I'll never be anywhere close to being good enough to being a QB. When it comes to race car driving, I would have the ability to obtain the skill, but to be a QB, I'd never be able to obtain the athletic ability to play the position.

(Please do not take my points out of context. Like I said, I am not saying that race car driving is easy, or easier than being a QB. But I'm pretty sure somebody will still try to take my points out of context.)

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:31 PM
Golf, racing, and even baseball, I would personally group in the same category as billiards and poker. Flame away ******s.

Baseball doesn't require tons of strength. But the endurance comes into play over a 160 games for sure. Also hand eye coordination is big in baseball.

There are many athletic traits.

1-strength
2-speed
3-agility
4-hand eye coordination
5-heart and passion
6-endurance

Motorcross riders have to have stength, heand eye coordination, heart, endurance. Same for race cars drivers.

In basketball Agility, strength, hand eye coordination, speed, endurance all play in.

I will agree some sports take more athletic traits then others. Things like billiards down to only one like hand eye coordination.

I guess you could make a list of the 10 physical traits most important to being an athlete.

Then you would say ok if your activity doesn't include a certain % of those traits it might not be a true sport in the terms we feel apply.

IMO though race car drivers would still qualify.

Hemmingway once said there are only 2 sports. Auto racing, and bull fighting.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 11:33 PM
I think different sports require different physical abilities. But mostly we see athletes as in great shape with high endurance. IMO Formula 1 drivers have that and then some.

There actually really out of shape fatties playing football that probably could not even run a mile withouth dropping. Are they still athletes?

Here's my difference:

My definition of "athleticism" is not the correct one. Mine is god/genetic given talent.

I don't personally know you, so I will use myself as an example.

I'm perennially in great physical condition. In the Marines I ran FOUR perfect scoring 300 PFTs (physical fitness test, rarely will you find someone that could do one, fyi). My best was 42 pull ups (without kipping), 184 situps in 2 minutes, and a 17:13 second run time on a THREE mile run.

Athletically, I think I'm pretty damn good. I was an all conference player in highschool my junior year, an all state player my senior year AND an all conference player at another position. I started my freshman year in a division 3 school that is famous for being the best Div 3 school in the nation (yeah yeah, Div 3, but MANY people have been drafted from there).

Regardless, I'm not fast enough to play CB in the NFL. Bar none. Nothing I can do about it. At 190 in college, I'm too small to be a white S in the NFL as well.

Options:
Cry about racial prejudice
or
Accept reality... I was too slow, or too small

The point is: skill isn't the major part of the equation. I understand that "hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in professional sports", but the people that say that haven't cracked off a 99 yard run against the Balt defense, IMO.

And no, fat baseball players don't compare to DL, imo. DL have to make reads and react within a split second and have the athleticism to clog the appropriate gap.

And these guys don't have the IQ to bull****. NFL players, on the whole, are ****ing retarded. If you didn't know... then trust me.

But the NFL requires a diff breed. That breed IS what I term "athletic". God given size and/or speed with the explosion and muscle memory to make what you're coached to happen, happen.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:34 PM
Yes, we have the ability to throw a football, but not with the power that an NFL QB can, because we don't have the athletic ability to do so.

I'd make the case that, as of today, I would have a better chance at making it as a race car driver than an NFL QB. I am in no way saying that it is easier to be a race car driver, or it is something that I could do with a little practice. But with the proper instruction, practice, and racing over the course of several years, is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? No, chances of it happen would be very slim. But possible? Yes! Now on the other head, I could practice with the best QB coaches there are, and with the best strength and conditioning coaches, but I'll never be anywhere close to being good enough to being a QB. When it comes to race car driving, I would have the ability to obtain the skill, but to be a QB, I'd never be able to obtain the athletic ability to play the position.

(Please do not take my points out of context. Like I said, I am not saying that race car driving is easy, or easier than being a QB. But I'm pretty sure somebody will still try to take my points out of context.)


Like I said different sports require different abilities. I serioulsy doubt you would survive to see if you could be a race car driver. Seriously the Formula Drivers been on a mission since they were little kids. Unless you start early you have no chance. These guys make salaries that make QBS like like paupers. Why? Because there are only a handful of men good enough to drive a car in formula, its that friggin hard.

You are valuing speed and strength over other athletic abilities. You are just deciding what is more rare to yourself and projecting it to sports you know nothing about.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Here's my difference:

My definition of "athleticism" is not the correct one. Mine is god/genetic given talent.

I don't personally know you, so I will use myself as an example.

I'm perennially in great physical condition. In the Marines I ran FOUR perfect scoring 300 PFTs (physical fitness test, rarely will you find someone that could do one, fyi). My best was 42 pull ups (without kipping), 184 situps in 2 minutes, and a 17:13 second run time on a THREE mile run.

Athletically, I think I'm pretty damn good. I was an all conference player in highschool my junior year, an all state player my senior year AND an all conference player at another position. I started my freshman year in a division 3 school that is famous for being the best Div 3 school in the nation (yeah yeah, Div 3, but MANY people have been drafted from there).

Regardless, I'm not fast enough to play CB in the NFL. Bar none. Nothing I can do about it. At 190 in college, I'm too small to be a white S in the NFL as well.

Options:
Cry about racial prejudice
or
Accept reality... I was too slow, or too small

The point is: skill isn't the major part of the equation. I understand that "hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in professional sports", but the people that say that haven't cracked off a 99 yard run against the Balt defense, IMO.

And no, fat baseball players don't compare to DL, imo. DL have to make reads and react within a split second and have the athleticism to clog the appropriate gap.

And these guys don't have the IQ to bull****. NFL players, on the whole, are ****ing retarded. If you didn't know... then trust me.

But the NFL requires a diff breed. That breed IS what I term "athletic". God given size and/or speed with the explosion and muscle memory to make what you're coached to happen, happen.

I understand all of that.

Football a sport that takes a narrow skill set to be able to play. It's nature requires you to be a combination of big, fast, strong that many peoples bodies just don't have.

You are IMO just a shortsighted marine who likes football. You don't appreciate that not every sport requires you to be big.

Do you see horse jockeys as athletic? or distance runners? What about ping pong? Ever see a 300 pound champion ping pong player? nope!!! Why because the nature of ping pong is quick hands, good hand eye coordination and most big guys don't have that. There body style means they need to look at what there athletic traits are, and then find a sport that is suitable.

Bigger does not equal better athlete, unless you are talking football, basketball.

I do agree Football way more important then ping pong, or auto racing to me, but my mind big enough to see the big picture.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 11:43 PM
LMFAO. And I'd say your wrong. If I had the money, I would gladly put you a in car and show you otherwise. After 25 miles you would be complaining about the heat. After 50 miles you would start complaining that your neck and arms hurt. Shortly after that you would pile it up in a wall because you lost focus and just wanted out of the car.

Really? I've driven a race car. I went down to the Fontana Speedway, on a blazing hot day, and I drove the car. They gave me a "crash course", then had me drive as a passenger with an instructor, and then they strapped me in and I drove the car. And I loved it. It was great. The speed, the power of the car, the rumble, man, it was awesome. Was it hot? Hell yeah it was hot! I had that jump suit on over the clothes that I wore there. But once I got going I didn't even notice the heat. I was having too much fun. I didn't want to get out of the car. I wanted to do more laps.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Jlewis3233/NASCAR1.jpg

Now, I am in no way saying that I had the full experience of being a race car driver, but I would say that the typical person could put up with the heat, especially if the person practiced enough to get used to the heat. And being able to withstand heat does not make them an athlete.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I understand all of that.

Football a sport that takes a narrow skill set to be able to play. It's nature requires you to be a combination of big, fast, strong that many peoples bodies just don't have.

You are IMO just a shortsighted marine who likes football. You don't appreciate that not every sport requires you to be big.

Do you see horse jockeys as athletic? or distance runners? What about ping pong? Ever see a 300 pound champion ping pong player? nope!!! Why because the nature of ping pong is quick hands, good hand eye coordination and most big guys don't have that. There body style means they need to look at what there athletic traits are, and then find a sport that is suitable.

Bigger does not equal better athlete, unless you are talking football, basketball.

I do agree Football way more important then ping pong, or auto racing to me, but my mind big enough to see the big picture.

Solid post, man. I'll admit my short comings.

However, here's my issue with your examples:

Those require specific skill sets associated with different types. Okay, you're sub 5'0"... jockey time. Okay, you've got great reflexes, ping pong. Etc.

Football, requires an all encompassing skill set.

You CANNOT be purely big. You still need great reflexes, strength, fighters mentality, and coached muscle memory.

You CANNOT be purely fast. You still need the reflexes for ball skill, the ability to fight off stalk blocks, the quick wittedness to attack outside shoulders, the strength to bring down ball carriers much larger than you.

It's such an all encompassing game, that it's really the only one I view as an all encompassing athletic sport.

cutthemdown
06-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Solid post, man. I'll admit my short comings.

However, here's my issue with your examples:

Those require specific skill sets associated with different types. Okay, you're sub 5'0"... jockey time. Okay, you've got great reflexes, ping pong. Etc.

Football, requires an all encompassing skill set.

You CANNOT be purely big. You still need great reflexes, strength, fighters mentality, and coached muscle memory.

You CANNOT be purely fast. You still need the reflexes for ball skill, the ability to fight off stalk blocks, the quick wittedness to attack outside shoulders, the strength to bring down ball carriers much larger than you.

It's such an all encompassing game, that it's really the only one I view as an all encompassing athletic sport.


I can totally go along with saying sports like Basketball and Football require a longer list of skill sets, and high athletic prowess in more skill sets, then a race car driver.

But race car driving take bigger balls.

And to Jason please bro you driving that dumbed down race car is the equivilent of me and my brother getting a pickup basketball game together.

Sorry but we were talking Formula One cars. If you want to say Nascar not a sport I will maybe go along with it. American racing is as lame and stupid as a crap wanna be pro football league in Europe or some other country.

We do drag racing well in America and that it. Cart, Indy, Nascar are a joke compared to Formula 1. It still takes the same skills but just a way less degree of prowess in them.

Also the heat and fatigue in racing comes after about 100 miles in Formula, about 300 miles in Nascar the guys are really feeling it.

Your little jaunt in that wanna be race car just doesn't compare.

Hell I kicked the football at the nfl experience but that doesn't mean i can say kickers aren't athletes.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 11:56 PM
Like I said different sports require different abilities. I serioulsy doubt you would survive to see if you could be a race car driver. Seriously the Formula Drivers been on a mission since they were little kids. Unless you start early you have no chance. These guys make salaries that make QBS like like paupers. Why? Because there are only a handful of men good enough to drive a car in formula, its that friggin hard.

You are valuing speed and strength over other athletic abilities. You are just deciding what is more rare to yourself and projecting it to sports you know nothing about.

I'm separating athletic ability from skill. They are two different things.

Look at basketball, hitting a jump shot is a skill. Driving to the basketball, getting around defenders, and then hitting pulling up for the open jumper is based on athletic ability (and skill too, because a player has to dribble the ball while doing that.) But once he gets an open look, it's all skill from that point. That can be applied to all sports. My point is that some sports are mostly skill, and not much athletic ability. Like auto racing. That doesn't mean that it is any less of a sport, or that a football player should be valued more. Auto racers just aren't athletes.

And just because I have never participated in a sport does not mean that I cannot make a valid point on that sport. If that was the case, then we should all shut up about pretty much every sport that we argue about.

Jason in LA
06-07-2009, 11:58 PM
I can totally go along with saying sports like Basketball and Football require a longer list of skill sets, and high athletic prowess in more skill sets, then a race car driver.

But race car driving take bigger balls.

And to Jason please bro you driving that dumbed down race car is the equivilent of me and my brother getting a pickup basketball game together.

Sorry but we were talking Formula One cars. If you want to say Nascar not a sport I will maybe go along with it. American racing is as lame and stupid as a crap wanna be pro football league in Europe or some other country.

We do drag racing well in America and that it. Cart, Indy, Nascar are a joke compared to Formula 1. It still takes the same skills but just a way less degree of prowess in them.

Also the heat and fatigue in racing comes after about 100 miles in Formula, about 300 miles in Nascar the guys are really feeling it.

Your little jaunt in that wanna be race car just doesn't compare.

Hell I kicked the football at the nfl experience but that doesn't mean i can say kickers aren't athletes.

So you're saying that one form of car racing counts as being athletic, but another doesn't? Man, why should I even bother debating with you after that point?

And like I said, I did not have the full experience of being a race car driver. I'm not surprised that you took my point out of context.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 12:04 AM
So you're saying that one form of car racing counts as being athletic, but another doesn't? Man, why should I even bother debating with you after that point?

And like I said, I did not have the full experience of being a race car driver. I'm not surprised that you took my point out of context.

No I'm saying that Formula takes the same skills as Nascar, but like 80% more.

I agree basketball take a long list of athletic skills to compete at NBA level.

Nascar = CBA
Formula = NBA

Really its just like that.

you can say Nascar drivers need the same skills, but just not at the level Formula does.

For one the tracks or 100 times tougher in Formula. To compare it Nascar would be like a sport played with basketball, but the rim only 6 feet of the ground. Sure you still have to shoot the ball through it but it would be easier.

4 turns all going same way, only a few road courses, and not travelling near as fast. That is Nascar compared to Formula.

So I should not have said that Nascar aren't athletes, the are, just nowhere near what Formula 1 drivers are. Montoya in Nascar knows what I'm talking about, he's like the only one that drove Formula since Andrette and AJ Foyt.

Jason in LA
06-08-2009, 12:04 AM
Sorry but we were talking Formula One cars. If you want to say Nascar not a sport I will maybe go along with it.



And to make one thing clear, because you must not be reading my posts. I have not, at any point, said that race car driving is not a sport. I have made it clear by stating a number of times that it is a sport. I've said that in a number of posts in this thread.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 12:08 AM
I'm separating athletic ability from skill. They are two different things.

Look at basketball, hitting a jump shot is a skill. Driving to the basketball, getting around defenders, and then hitting pulling up for the open jumper is based on athletic ability (and skill too, because a player has to dribble the ball while doing that.) But once he gets an open look, it's all skill from that point. That can be applied to all sports. My point is that some sports are mostly skill, and not much athletic ability. Like auto racing. That doesn't mean that it is any less of a sport, or that a football player should be valued more. Auto racers just aren't athletes.

And just because I have never participated in a sport does not mean that I cannot make a valid point on that sport. If that was the case, then we should all shut up about pretty much every sport that we argue about.

In my opinion all sports take athletic ability. It's just some take more.

Basketball, Football, Hockey take a ton of skill and body types most can't come close to. It's the combo of the athletic ability, and the sport being engineered for big fast people. I agree race car drivers can be quite a few different body shapes and sizes.

For things like Horse Racing obviously goes the other way. But still in horse racing you have to be 90 pounds and be able to handle a huge horse running really fast. It's a small size, high strength attribute most people can't come close to.

and honestly Jason I could care less if you argue with me because you aren't good at it and it's not as fun as arguing with some of the other posters.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 12:09 AM
I can totally go along with saying sports like Basketball and Football require a longer list of skill sets, and high athletic prowess in more skill sets, then a race car driver.

But race car driving take bigger balls.

And to Jason please bro you driving that dumbed down race car is the equivilent of me and my brother getting a pickup basketball game together.

Sorry but we were talking Formula One cars. If you want to say Nascar not a sport I will maybe go along with it. American racing is as lame and stupid as a crap wanna be pro football league in Europe or some other country.

We do drag racing well in America and that it. Cart, Indy, Nascar are a joke compared to Formula 1. It still takes the same skills but just a way less degree of prowess in them.

Also the heat and fatigue in racing comes after about 100 miles in Formula, about 300 miles in Nascar the guys are really feeling it.

Your little jaunt in that wanna be race car just doesn't compare.

Hell I kicked the football at the nfl experience but that doesn't mean i can say kickers aren't athletes.

Okay, I think we're establishing common ground.

I disagree with the dictionary definition of athlete, so in MY pov

Football=only all encompassing SPORT
Basketball=an athletic sport (thought I hate it, so it pains me to say)
Soccer= a sport

Games:
Baseball
Golf
Driving
etc

I understand it's fairly myopic, and I encourage those that disagree to post their disagreement so we can discuss.

JJJ
06-08-2009, 12:11 AM
Formula 1 drivers: definitely athletes. Zero question about it. The G forces alone make this so.

Nascar one can make an argument.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 12:11 AM
And to make one thing clear, because you must not be reading my posts. I have not, at any point, said that race car driving is not a sport. I have made it clear by stating a number of times that it is a sport. I've said that in a number of posts in this thread.

So then why not just admit that different sports take different skills. Some of them take the same skills but you just have them to a higher degree.

I love basketball, I agree with you it's a sport that takes a ton of different skills and athletic attributes. More then auto racing or motorcycle riding.

I do believe though race car drivers are athletes.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Formula 1 drivers: definitely athletes. Zero question about it. The G forces alone make this so.

Nascar one can make an argument.

Exactly I'm just saying only certain people can have that type of endurance, timing, hand eye coordination etc. So Formula guys may need a smaller group of skills compared to football or basketball, but they are still athletes.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 12:18 AM
Okay, I think we're establishing common ground.

I disagree with the dictionary definition of athlete, so in MY pov

Football=only all encompassing SPORT
Basketball=an athletic sport (thought I hate it, so it pains me to say)
Soccer= a sport

Games:
Baseball
Golf
Driving
etc

I understand it's fairly myopic, and I encourage those that disagree to post their disagreement so we can discuss.

I totally understand where you are coming from.

Some athletic traits harder to come by. Sports like American football, Basketball, have so many facets to the game the athletes demonstrate a wide variety of skill sets and athletic abilities.

Others like Golf demonstrate a more narrow set of athletic skills.

I will go along with Race Car driving not requiring as wide a variety of athletic abilities then some other sports like Basketball and Football.

Still though race car driving pumps me up. It's amazing how fast the Formula one drivers drive. It's a rare skill and I am happy to watch it.

IMO the 2 most exciting things in sports are the NFL kickoff, and the Formula One standing start.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 12:23 AM
I totally understand where you are coming from.

Some athletic traits harder to come by. Sports like American football, Basketball, have so many facets to the game the athletes demonstrate a wide variety of skill sets and athletic abilities.

Others like Golf demonstrate a more narrow set of athletic skills.

I will go along with Race Car driving not requiring as wide a variety of athletic abilities then some other sports like Basketball and Football.

Still though race car driving pumps me up. It's amazing how fast the Formula one drivers drive. It's a rare skill and I am happy to watch it.

IMO the 2 most exciting things in sports are the NFL kickoff, and the Formula One standing start.

This is the most productive version of this conversation I've ever had.

If you knew how many baseball fans that don't watch football that I've punched in the face over this same topic, you'd be ****ing amazed.

My take from this:
We're on the same page, I just have a different view of the word "athlete" than is generally accepted.

Right?

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 01:03 AM
Yes I understand where you are coming from. Go to a driving range you see a ton of guys launching ball 300 yrds. It may not be straight but still hitting it far off the tee. You won't find very many people who can throw a football 60 yrds regardless of whether it goes straight.

Basically we have invented tons of sports to encompass many different skill sets. Some harder to come by then others.

Race car driving can be taught from a young age, but only so many people are like Kobe Bryant and can sky in the air. You can't really teach that.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 01:24 AM
Yes I understand where you are coming from. Go to a driving range you see a ton of guys launching ball 300 yrds. It may not be straight but still hitting it far off the tee. You won't find very many people who can throw a football 60 yrds regardless of whether it goes straight.

Basically we have invented tons of sports to encompass many different skill sets. Some harder to come by then others.

Race car driving can be taught from a young age, but only so many people are like Kobe Bryant and can sky in the air. You can't really teach that.

Precisely my POV and why I think I'm being open minded by including fairy games like basketball and soccer (suck it Med!)

Of course, I could be wrong.

It'd be a first... but it's possible.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:01 AM
Having wrestled cars around tracks for fun at Porsche Club Drivers Ed events, I would not hesitate to call racing drivers athletes.

It is intense both physically and mentally and it requires many of the same skills as other sporting/athletic endeavors like golf, skiing, fencing, tennis, baseball: eye-hand coordination, visual acuity, depth perception, well developed situational & spatial awareness, rhythm & timing, split-second decision making, good reflexes, balance.
That doesn't mean someone is an athlete. Those are all things that require training, but a surgeon needs those things and there are plenty of excellent surgeons who aren't athletes. I consider driving a "skill" sport on par with bowling, golf, and pool.

Athletic ability is generally about running fast, jumping high, and being physically explosive with moving your body from one point to another or making your body do incredible things. Being skilled and having good reflexes and hand/eye coordination is cool but not "athletic".

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 07:17 AM
That doesn't mean someone is an athlete. Those are all things that require training, but a surgeon needs those things and there are plenty of excellent surgeons who aren't athletes. I consider driving a "skill" sport on par with bowling, golf, and pool.

Athletic ability is generally about running fast, jumping high, and being physically explosive with moving your body from one point to another or making your body do incredible things. Being skilled and having good reflexes and hand/eye coordination is cool but not "athletic".

Well all that may be true. But another argument could be made that race car driving tougher because it is a developed skill. It's all training and heart, desire and outright no fear of dying. Moving your body from one point to another with great agility and speed often just a god given thing.

It may more difficult to become a formula one driver then it is to play pro sports. To reach that level where teams will turn over cars that are as expensive as jet fighters is not easy.

It prob is a skill, a skill and mindset that only a very very few men will achieve.

Cito Pelon
06-08-2009, 08:15 AM
I'd say F1 is more a skill than some suberb athletic endeavor. It's not like they get smacked in the face, ribs, legs one minute, then have to get right up and get smacked in the face, ribs, legs again 40 seconds later.

It sure isn't rugby, hockey, football, boxing type of a sport, but that doesn't mean an F1 driver could not be pro level at one of those sports.

I enjoy F1 (and all racing) for what it is - pitting the best humans and machines against each other and see who comes out on top.

cutthemdown
06-08-2009, 08:20 AM
I'd say F1 is more a skill than some suberb athletic endeavor. It's not like they get smacked in the face, ribs, legs one minute, then have to get right up and get smacked in the face, ribs, legs again 40 seconds later.

It sure isn't rugby, hockey, football, boxing type of a sport, but that doesn't mean an F1 driver could not be pro level at one of those sports.

I enjoy F1 (and all racing) for what it is - pitting the best humans and machines against each other and see who comes out on top.

I think racing pushes the endurance, sort of like distance running does. Just a grind to race a car 250 miles pulling g's in the turns. Same with motocross those dudes in really good shape and are dead after an event. I can't jump a motorcycle 100's of feet, but I can still say damn that has to take a lot of strength to pull off.

DenverBrit
06-08-2009, 08:25 AM
There is no question that F1 drivers are athletes.

Take a look at the demands on their bodies and their training regimes.


F1 drivers are athletes too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6980337.stm

Racing Form - why F1 drivers are the fittest athletes on earth
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/articles/15-06-05

Formula 1: Are F1 Drivers considered Athletes?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/30864-formula-1-are-f1-drivers-considered-athletes

Peoples Champ
06-08-2009, 10:24 AM
There is no question that F1 drivers are athletes.

Take a look at the demands on their bodies and their training regimes.


F1 drivers are athletes too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6980337.stm

Racing Form - why F1 drivers are the fittest athletes on earth
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/articles/15-06-05

Formula 1: Are F1 Drivers considered Athletes?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/30864-formula-1-are-f1-drivers-considered-athletes


I agree with this 100 percent.

I didnt a gocart F1 simulator where the carts only went 40 mph, but it was constant turning. I did it for 20 minutes, and I was dying. I was sore for days. I couldnt imagine going 200 mph for 2 hrs with constant turning. Its ridiculous.

ElwayMD
06-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Here's my difference:

My definition of "athleticism" is not the correct one. Mine is god/genetic given talent.

I don't personally know you, so I will use myself as an example.

I'm perennially in great physical condition. In the Marines I ran FOUR perfect scoring 300 PFTs (physical fitness test, rarely will you find someone that could do one, fyi). My best was 42 pull ups (without kipping), 184 situps in 2 minutes, and a 17:13 second run time on a THREE mile run.

Athletically, I think I'm pretty damn good. I was an all conference player in highschool my junior year, an all state player my senior year AND an all conference player at another position. I started my freshman year in a division 3 school that is famous for being the best Div 3 school in the nation (yeah yeah, Div 3, but MANY people have been drafted from there).

Regardless, I'm not fast enough to play CB in the NFL. Bar none. Nothing I can do about it. At 190 in college, I'm too small to be a white S in the NFL as well.

Options:
Cry about racial prejudice
or
Accept reality... I was too slow, or too small

The point is: skill isn't the major part of the equation. I understand that "hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in professional sports", but the people that say that haven't cracked off a 99 yard run against the Balt defense, IMO.

And no, fat baseball players don't compare to DL, imo. DL have to make reads and react within a split second and have the athleticism to clog the appropriate gap.

And these guys don't have the IQ to bull****. NFL players, on the whole, are ****ing retarded. If you didn't know... then trust me.

But the NFL requires a diff breed. That breed IS what I term "athletic". God given size and/or speed with the explosion and muscle memory to make what you're coached to happen, happen.

You go to Mt. Union College?

ElwayMD
06-08-2009, 10:41 AM
I agree with this 100 percent.

I didnt a gocart F1 simulator where the carts only went 40 mph, but it was constant turning. I did it for 20 minutes, and I was dying. I was sore for days. I couldnt imagine going 200 mph for 2 hrs with constant turning. Its ridiculous.

Try running 100 laps with the power steering shot. I thought my arms were going to fall off, flip me the bird, and find another body to reside on.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 11:32 AM
Well all that may be true. But another argument could be made that race car driving tougher because it is a developed skill.
I'm not arguing one is harder than the other. My earlier post about surgeons applies here. I'm sure becoming a heart surgeon is similarly difficult to becoming a formula one driver. I think that amount skill, focus and endurance is impressive. That doesn't make them "athletes." I think to be athletic you to use your body in a variety of ways that involve speed, agility and power. I would say some amount of running would be helpful, but not necessarily required.

sisterhellfyre
06-08-2009, 05:00 PM
Strictly in my opinion...

For me the difference between a game and a sport comes down to one question: is there a defense? Is there somebody on the field (in the court, in the rink, etc) physically trying to stop you from reaching your goal?

If the answer is yes, then it's a sport: football, baseball, basketball, soccer -- heck, even cricket. It boils down to "I'm going to score despite your best effort to stop me."

If there isn't a physical defense, then it's a game. I'd include bowling, golf, poker, billiards, horse racing, race car driving, etc. If it's a game, it boils down to a question instead of a statement: "How fast can the horse/racecar/bobsled/etc go?" or something similar.

(Free associating ideas: I'd tend to put poker in a class all by itself as a non-physical sport. And I guess this would reclassify ancient Roman gladiatorial "games" into sports, as well.)

It can take years to develop skill at games or sports. Some people have an easier time with their specific game or sport because their physical (read "athletic") characteristics lend itself to what they're doing. I tend to think that's why we thought Spud Webb and similar players were so remarkable: he played in the NBA and could dunk the ball while standing 5'8" (or close to) barefoot.

Generally, I like playing games (esp bowling, tho I'm not all that good at it yet), but prefer to watch sports. I've joked for years that I'll start watching golf on TV when they come up with the full-contact version. :-)

Binkythefrog
06-08-2009, 05:24 PM
Formula 1 is a thing of beauty no doubt. Watching a driver pick the correct line and make turns at almost the maximum speed possible perfectly almost everytime is something amazing. When I lived in China, Formula 1 was on all the time.

The problem I have with Formula 1, is that there is very little passing. Often you'll see a driver (Michael Schumacher) take the lead a few laps in and pretty much hold it the entire race. Passing happens all the time in Nascar, but rarely happens in Formula 1. Also, unlike NASCAR, where all car manufacturers produced cars that were reasonably competitive, Ferrari dominates Formula 1. When Schumacher dominated from 2000-2004, part of his success was that his car was just better than everyone other car out there and nobody could touch him no matter how awesome they drove their car.

chadta
06-08-2009, 06:17 PM
Motorcross riders have to have stength, heand eye coordination, heart, endurance. Same for race cars drivers.

i used to laugh at that, till my first motocross race, i finished the race, but the last 3 laps i had such arm pump i could barely hold onto the bars, honestly i think it wouldbe easier if i had to pedal the bike rather then rding a motorbike

Sim Pilot 4.0
06-08-2009, 06:40 PM
Formula 1 is a thing of beauty no doubt. Watching a driver pick the correct line and make turns at almost the maximum speed possible perfectly almost everytime is something amazing. When I lived in China, Formula 1 was on all the time.

The problem I have with Formula 1, is that there is very little passing. Often you'll see a driver (Michael Schumacher) take the lead a few laps in and pretty much hold it the entire race. Passing happens all the time in Nascar, but rarely happens in Formula 1. Also, unlike NASCAR, where all car manufacturers produced cars that were reasonably competitive, Ferrari dominates Formula 1. When Schumacher dominated from 2000-2004, part of his success was that his car was just better than everyone other car out there and nobody could touch him no matter how awesome they drove their car.

Exactly!

Sim Pilot 4.0
06-08-2009, 06:41 PM
Furthermore,

Now for the record, Formula 1 racers do not experience the same amount of G-forces as Indy racers. The G-forces are at their highest for F1 drivers in the braking phase because F1 cars cannot reach the same speeds as indy cars. Indy drivers are under constant G-forces and when racing on a oval the G-forces are magnified because they don't brake in the corners.

Indy cars are heavier faster and harder to handle. F1 cars accelerate faster because they are lighter and they have better handling but they lack the top end speed of indy cars.

NASCAR drivers also experience more G-Forces because of the oval track. As far as athleticism goes, I’m on the fence. However, technically, a racecar driver has to be considered an athlete, because there is a level of training that is necessary to compete. Temps can reach 120 degrees there is no air flow inside the car because of the aerodynamic designs and the drafting etc.

On the other end of the argument you have Fighter Pilots who take 7-8 G’s and on the extreme 9 G’s. Are they considered athletes? I ride roller coasters that give 3-4 G’s does that make me an athlete. I have to take Dramamine as a conditioner. The fat slob down the street can withstand the G-forces. Therefore, the G-Force argument isn’t the determining factor.

The mental aspect of racing has also been brought up. I won’t argue that there is heavy concentration needed. However, I will argue that most of the mental capabilities are overridden by natural instinct to brake and turn away from danger. A highly ranked chess player probably has more mental capabilities. Does that make chess a sport; they do compete for a prize?

DenverBrit
06-08-2009, 07:05 PM
Formula 1 is a thing of beauty no doubt. Watching a driver pick the correct line and make turns at almost the maximum speed possible perfectly almost everytime is something amazing. When I lived in China, Formula 1 was on all the time.

The problem I have with Formula 1, is that there is very little passing. Often you'll see a driver (Michael Schumacher) take the lead a few laps in and pretty much hold it the entire race. Passing happens all the time in Nascar, but rarely happens in Formula 1. Also, unlike NASCAR, where all car manufacturers produced cars that were reasonably competitive, Ferrari dominates Formula 1. When Schumacher dominated from 2000-2004, part of his success was that his car was just better than everyone other car out there and nobody could touch him no matter how awesome they drove their car.

When Schumacher was driving he was recognized as a great driver and could have dominated with McLaren or Williams.
So much depends on the team and driver.
McLaren-Mercedes and Williams-Renault have all been 'dominant' at different times.
Ferrari are currently in 4th place....a distant 4th.

Jason in LA
06-08-2009, 07:20 PM
In my opinion all sports take athletic ability. It's just some take more.

Basketball, Football, Hockey take a ton of skill and body types most can't come close to. It's the combo of the athletic ability, and the sport being engineered for big fast people. I agree race car drivers can be quite a few different body shapes and sizes.

For things like Horse Racing obviously goes the other way. But still in horse racing you have to be 90 pounds and be able to handle a huge horse running really fast. It's a small size, high strength attribute most people can't come close to.

and honestly Jason I could care less if you argue with me because you aren't good at it and it's not as fun as arguing with some of the other posters.

I love the last line of this post. That's cute LOL. So you have a tough time arguing with me, so it means that I'm not good at it? Maybe it's the other way around. I guess you want to argue with people who will just roll over and agree with you. Or people that you can easily prove wrong.

I'd say that all sports require a different level of athletic ability, but some of them require so little athletic ability that I wouldn't consider them athletes. It's as simply as that. Sports that's pretty much all skill with little athletic ability I consider non athletic sports. Being able to with stand certain elements does not make a person an athlete.

Jason in LA
06-08-2009, 07:28 PM
No I'm saying that Formula takes the same skills as Nascar, but like 80% more.

I agree basketball take a long list of athletic skills to compete at NBA level.

Nascar = CBA
Formula = NBA

Really its just like that.

you can say Nascar drivers need the same skills, but just not at the level Formula does.

For one the tracks or 100 times tougher in Formula. To compare it Nascar would be like a sport played with basketball, but the rim only 6 feet of the ground. Sure you still have to shoot the ball through it but it would be easier.

4 turns all going same way, only a few road courses, and not travelling near as fast. That is Nascar compared to Formula.

So I should not have said that Nascar aren't athletes, the are, just nowhere near what Formula 1 drivers are. Montoya in Nascar knows what I'm talking about, he's like the only one that drove Formula since Andrette and AJ Foyt.

Key word in your post. "Skill". I don't think the skill part of a sport makes somebody an athlete. The athletic portion of the sport makes them an athlete.

And I'd love to see you try to sell the argument to a NASCAR fan that Formula 1 drivers are greater than NASCAR drivers, and that they are athletes while NASCAR drivers are not. They'd have a great time with you. Probably tell you that you are talking about something that you have no idea about (kind of like you told me ;D).

One more point, you said that I'm not good at arguing, but I just made you change your point. At first you said that Formula 1 drivers are athletes while NASCAR drivers are not, and now you just changed it to them both being athletes because I pointed out how silly your statement was. I must know what I'm doing here, and have a strong point of view, to make you change your mind. You certainly haven't made me change my point of view at all. I'm already one step ahead of you. You're probably going to reply by saying some BS like you are man enough to change your point of view and I'm stubborn, or something to that affect. Well that wouldn't be correct, you just haven't presented anything that would "enlighten" me. Looks like you really aren't very good at this. ;D

Jason in LA
06-08-2009, 07:33 PM
So then why not just admit that different sports take different skills. Some of them take the same skills but you just have them to a higher degree.

I love basketball, I agree with you it's a sport that takes a ton of different skills and athletic attributes. More then auto racing or motorcycle riding.

I do believe though race car drivers are athletes.

I never said that different sports didn't take different skills. Of course they take different skills.

Lets say that basketball is 50% skill and 50% athletic ability. Well, a sport like auto racing, in my opinion, is all skill, and not athletic ability. They have crazy skills. I'd love to have skills like that, so I'm blown away by what they can do. But I just wouldn't say that they have athletic ability.

ton80
06-08-2009, 09:06 PM
Please explain to me the athleticism involved.

Who the heck says one has to play a sport to be considered athletic?

F1 race car drivers are exceptionally fit, have the reflexes of freaking cat, and the mental quickness of a fighter pilot. But no, that's not athleticism. No freaking way.

You prove the point that the less someone knows about something, the more opinionated they are on the topic? Congratulations Reverend.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 09:13 PM
Who the heck says one has to play a sport to be considered athletic?

F1 race car drivers are exceptionally fit, have the reflexes of freaking cat, and the mental quickness of a fighter pilot. But no, that's not athleticism. No freaking way.

You prove the point that the less someone knows about something, the more opinionated they are on the topic? Congratulations Reverend.

Someone obviously decided to run their mouth after reading one post into a multi page thread?

Congratulations ton80. You're an idiot.

Eldorado
06-08-2009, 09:51 PM
"Auto racing, bullfighting and mountain climbing are the only real sports...All others are games."

Rep for the author of the quote.

GreatBronco16
06-08-2009, 10:48 PM
Strictly in my opinion...

For me the difference between a game and a sport comes down to one question: is there a defense? Is there somebody on the field (in the court, in the rink, etc) physically trying to stop you from reaching your goal?

If the answer is yes, then it's a sport: football, baseball, basketball, soccer -- heck, even cricket. It boils down to "I'm going to score despite your best effort to stop me."


There may not be an actual person(s) out on a golf course trying to stop you from getting the ball in the hole, but mother nature, the lay out of the course, trees, water, sand traps etc, are 99% man made obsticles that act as a defense to keep you from getting the ball in the hole in the fewest amount of stokes possible. Not to mention the hundreds of people standing just feet from you while you're playing.

I think most people hate golf so much, because it is one of the only sports where anyone, no matter what age, can go out and play at any time they want no matter how bad they are. Then some people just hate it because they just suck at it and wasted a lot of money on the gimmics trying to improve their game.


Also, what other sport can you get drunk while playing, and still play at a competitive level?:wiggle:

sisterhellfyre
06-08-2009, 11:44 PM
I think most people hate golf so much, because it is one of the only sports where anyone, no matter what age, can go out and play at any time they want no matter how bad they are. Then some people just hate it because they just suck at it and wasted a lot of money on the gimmics trying to improve their game.

I get that about golf. I really do: it's very similar to bowling that way. It's a game, it's a learned skill, and just about anyone can play at any age or any physical condition. Bowling is one of my hobbies. My week doesn't feel complete if I haven't gone at least once, preferably twice.

My personal prejudice against golf is just that it bores me to tears. Frankly, I'd rather watch competitive paint drying. Don't get me wrong: I can admire the skill of Tiger Woods or other elite golfers, but I also admire the skill of dentists. Doesn't mean I want to spend time watching them on TV either.

GreatBronco16
06-08-2009, 11:49 PM
I get that about golf. I really do: it's very similar to bowling that way. It's a game, it's a learned skill, and just about anyone can play at any age or any physical condition. Bowling is one of my hobbies. My week doesn't feel complete if I haven't gone at least once, preferably twice.

My personal prejudice against golf is just that it bores me to tears. Frankly, I'd rather watch competitive paint drying. Don't get me wrong: I can admire the skill of Tiger Woods or other elite golfers, but I also admire the skill of dentists. Doesn't mean I want to spend time watching them on TV either.

See bowling bores me to death. Yeah I enjoy playing it, once a year maybe. Golf, I can't stand to watch it, but I love to play it.

Just this past Friday, we were in a four man scramble tourny at Silver Lakes, a Robert Trent Jones course here in Alabama. We all got pretty drunk by the 16th hole, but still finished 14 under par. Ofcourse it didn't hurt to have one of our states best Amateur golfers on my team. hehehe

sisterhellfyre
06-08-2009, 11:57 PM
We all got pretty drunk by the 16th hole, but still finished 14 under par. Ofcourse it didn't hurt to have one of our states best Amateur golfers on my team. hehehe

Congrats on the good round, even if it was with a ringer. ;-)

chadta
06-09-2009, 06:43 AM
i figure anything you can drink while playing isnt a sport, ie golf, bowling, darts, pool, im sure im forgetting some.

Binkythefrog
06-09-2009, 08:28 AM
When Schumacher was driving he was recognized as a great driver and could have dominated with McLaren or Williams.
So much depends on the team and driver.
McLaren-Mercedes and Williams-Renault have all been 'dominant' at different times.
Ferrari are currently in 4th place....a distant 4th.

Thanks for the info, I haven't seen Formula 1 since China since it is rarely on in the States.

DenverBrit
06-09-2009, 09:12 AM
Thanks for the info, I haven't seen Formula 1 since China since it is rarely on in the States.

Unfortunately that won't change until a US driver succeeds.

Until then, the BBC does a good job of covering F1.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/standings/default.stm

9mmbhp
06-09-2009, 09:42 AM
"Auto racing, bullfighting and mountain climbing are the only real sports...All others are games."

Rep for the author of the quote.

Ernest Hemingway.

9mmbhp
06-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Some thoughts.

Being an athlete is clearly not sport specific: can't say football players are athletes and baseball players are not: Elway played baseball and football in college, but choose pro football. Matt Holliday played football and baseball in college and choose pro baseball. Champ Bailey plays football, he's also by many accounts a phenomenal basketball player. Elway just golfs now, is he no longer an athlete?

There's obviously something akin to 'natural athlectic ability' since good athletes are good athletes: many/most of their skills and abilities transfer across sports/activities. But could either John or Champ have beaten Phelps in the 100m freestyle? Perhaps if they had dedicated themselves to competitive swimming starting at 5 years old?

Athletes are clearly not simply defined by acquiring a specific skill/ability: pretty much anyone can shoot freethrows, jumpshots, 3-pointers & dribble, but that doesn't make them Kobe or Lebron. Lots of people ride bikes; few can ride in the tour de france. Many people run marathons or do Iron Man events, few make it to the olympics as marathoners or swimmers.

Athletes are clearly not defined by a single physical talent/ability: marathon runners (endurance) vs 100m sprinters (speed) vs powerlifters (explosive power); is one more of an athlete than another? High hurdlers combine speed and power. Middle distance runners balance endurance and speed. Rowing combines power and endurance. Gymnasts? Biathalon? WTF... XC-skiing and shooting? Platform diving? Synchronized swimming? Both Lance Armstrong and Ed Viesturs (mountain climber) have abnormally high max V02 uptake (a measure of cadiovascular efficiency) which gives them significant advantage in their respective sports. Is Ed an athlete or a just a climber?

Athletes are clearly not defined solely by natural ability: skills need to be acquired and then practice, training, conditioning and technique refinement all provide measurable improvements.

Athletes are clearly not defined by physical skills/abilities alone, there's those pesky intangibles: maturity, focus, dedication, competitive spirit, mental toughness and being "clutch" (the consistent ability to perform on demand, under extreme pressure). Tiger Woods vs. John Daly. Joe Montana vs. Jeff George. Vince Young?

There's also intelligence: learning and understanding the nuances of the game, situational awareness, risk calculation and percentages, adaptability, strategy, tactics, planning, execution. Gamesmanship: bending the rules or finding the loopholes, intimidating/psyching your opponent with trash talk or staredowns.

One of the viewpoints expressed in this thread seems to be that the only true athletes are the "gifted" ones: i.e., freaks of nature. That is a very narrow definition. I choose a wider one: in addition to gifted athletes there are average athletes and special athletes. Average athletes have skills and abilities but aren't particularly gifted. Special athletes also have skills and abilities but need to overcome handicaps.

What do all them have in common - they compete to be the best in activities (physical/kinetic (requiring movement) if you like) that require a varied combination of physical, mental and psychological/spiritual skills and abilities. This is the typical dictionary definition of an athlete and I think the operative word is 'compete' -- competition, being competitive, requires athletes to employ their skills, abilities and talents with the drive to continuously improve all of them in order to demonstrate superiority over their opponent(s). Athletes hate to lose.

I do believe F1 drivers are athletes and would argue that they have above-average mental and physiological abilities which put them close to, if not in, the gifted category.

Peoples Champ
06-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Some thoughts.

Being an athlete is clearly not sport specific: can't say football players are athletes and baseball players are not: Elway played baseball and football in college, but choose pro football. Matt Holliday played football and baseball in college and choose pro baseball. Champ Bailey plays football, he's also by many accounts a phenomenal basketball player. Elway just golfs now, is he no longer an athlete?

There's obviously something akin to 'natural athlectic ability' since good athletes are good athletes: many/most of their skills and abilities transfer across sports/activities. But could either John or Champ have beaten Phelps in the 100m freestyle? Perhaps if they had dedicated themselves to competitive swimming starting at 5 years old?

Athletes are clearly not simply defined by acquiring a specific skill/ability: pretty much anyone can shoot freethrows, jumpshots, 3-pointers & dribble, but that doesn't make them Kobe or Lebron. Lots of people ride bikes; few can ride in the tour de france. Many people run marathons or do Iron Man events, few make it to the olympics as marathoners or swimmers.

Athletes are clearly not defined by a single physical talent/ability: marathon runners (endurance) vs 100m sprinters (speed) vs powerlifters (explosive power); is one more of an athlete than another? High hurdlers combine speed and power. Middle distance runners balance endurance and speed. Rowing combines power and endurance. Gymnasts? Biathalon? WTF... XC-skiing and shooting? Platform diving? Synchronized swimming? Both Lance Armstrong and Ed Viesturs (mountain climber) have abnormally high max V02 uptake (a measure of cadiovascular efficiency) which gives them significant advantage in their respective sports. Is Ed an athlete or a just a climber?

Athletes are clearly not defined solely by natural ability: skills need to be acquired and then practice, training, conditioning and technique refinement all provide measurable improvements.

Athletes are clearly not defined by physical skills/abilities alone, there's those pesky intangibles: maturity, focus, dedication, competitive spirit, mental toughness and being "clutch" (the consistent ability to perform on demand, under extreme pressure). Tiger Woods vs. John Daly. Joe Montana vs. Jeff George. Vince Young?

There's also intelligence: learning and understanding the nuances of the game, situational awareness, risk calculation and percentages, adaptability, strategy, tactics, planning, execution. Gamesmanship: bending the rules or finding the loopholes, intimidating/psyching your opponent with trash talk or staredowns.

One of the viewpoints expressed in this thread seems to be that the only true athletes are the "gifted" ones: i.e., freaks of nature. That is a very narrow definition. I choose a wider one: in addition to gifted athletes there are average athletes and special athletes. Average athletes have skills and abilities but aren't particularly gifted. Special athletes also have skills and abilities but need to overcome handicaps.

What do all them have in common - they compete to be the best in activities (physical/kinetic (requiring movement) if you like) that require a varied combination of physical, mental and psychological/spiritual skills and abilities. This is the typical dictionary definition of an athlete and I think the operative word is 'compete' -- competition, being competitive, requires athletes to employ their skills, abilities and talents with the drive to continuously improve all of them in order to demonstrate superiority over their opponent(s). Athletes hate to lose.

I do believe F1 drivers are athletes and would argue that they have above-average mental and physiological abilities which put them close to, if not in, the gifted category.



Who cares if they are athletes or not. F1 racing is decent to watch on TV and very fun to go too. A lot of hot girls there. Regardless of if they are athletes or not, F1 is awesome.

Flex Gunmetal
06-09-2009, 02:28 PM
Having wrestled cars around tracks for fun at Porsche Club Drivers Ed events, I would not hesitate to call racing drivers athletes.

It is intense both physically and mentally and it requires many of the same skills as other sporting/athletic endeavors like golf, skiing, fencing, tennis, baseball: eye-hand coordination, visual acuity, depth perception, well developed situational & spatial awareness, rhythm & timing, split-second decision making, good reflexes, balance.

Physical conditioning helps one deal with the heat and g-forces as well as the mental concentration required for lap after lap consistency. Doing 10 laps in 15 minutes would leave me drenched in sweat and my arms/shoulders completely pumped up (no power-steering in my 911). Left leg would be worn out from shifting a heavy racing clutch and bracing against g-loads in turns. And this was just driving the course at a speed I was comfortable with, not all-out racing.

ath·lete (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/athlete)
Pronunciation:
\ˈath-ˌlēt, ÷ˈa-thə-ˌlēt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlētēs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
Date:
15th century

: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
Very cool. You in CO?
We do techs for a lot of DEs in NoCo and Denver. We have built a number of 911s for SCCA stuff. Perhaps we know you?

And Indy drivers are most definitely athletes. Anyone saying otherwise is plainly wrong.

And dont get me started on NASCAR.

bronco militia
06-11-2009, 07:33 PM
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n36/KatFan49/DanicaFans/rednecks2.jpg