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View Full Version : Do we have the BEST Offensive line in the League?


BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 01:00 AM
Both Clady and Weigmann got serious All-Star awards, and Harris was placed on at least one All-Star team ... Kuper is solid, and Hamilton is considered one of the best zone-blocking guards in the league.

Dallas is the obvious choice with 4 Pro-Bowlers, but Flozell is 35 this year.

Killericon
06-07-2009, 01:23 AM
I picked one year from now, but the problem is that I don't know if Weigmann is gonna be around next year.

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2009, 01:25 AM
I picked one year from now, but the problem is that I don't know if Weigmann is gonna be around next year.

that's why Lichtnsteiger is here.

BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 01:27 AM
that's why Lichtnsteiger is here.

Good points .... wish we wouldda kept Chris Myers. He had some buzz for one All-Star team, might've been Yahoo Sports.

Anybody remember who put Ryan Harris on their All-Pro team ... was is John Clayton? Maybe Zimmerman?

Killericon
06-07-2009, 01:32 AM
that's why Lichtnsteiger is here.

Lichtensteiger is sort of an unknown, don't you think?

BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Lichtensteiger is sort of an unknown, don't you think?

Kory's a Shanahan guy ... remember Josh just drafted two interior linemen.

I always liked Chris Myers ... f'er was suiting up from Day 1 as a rookie.

enjolras
06-07-2009, 01:42 AM
Dallas has the most overrated line in football. They're good, but Dallas is going to send a lot of folks to the pro-bowl simply by virtue of who they are (that there are a lot of ex-cowboys sprinkled through the media helps even more).

That said, I know for sure that the Broncos have the best tackles in the league. I think Kuper is tremendous (and is only going to get better). If Wiegeman plays like he did last year, I think it's the best group in the league.

FireFly
06-07-2009, 02:43 AM
that's why Lichtnsteiger is here.

I hope you're right, but just because we have him doesn't mean he's going to be able to play at an elite level if Wiegman goes down (which is what would be required to qualify as the best line in the NFL).

I voted for us right now, because I think the cowboys are a little overrated, I'm a homer and Lichtnsteiger is too much of an unknown to vote for a year from now.

BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 02:59 AM
The "one year from now" has two advantages: Our guys will have Josh's system down, and Flozell will be 36.

Killericon
06-07-2009, 03:33 AM
The "one year from now" has two advantages: Our guys will have Josh's system down, and Flozell will be 36.

The Cowboys aren't the only competition.

Drek
06-07-2009, 03:57 AM
The "one year from now" has two advantages: Our guys will have Josh's system down, and Flozell will be 36.

The Cowboys OL was an average line living off former glory last year, they don't even deserve to be in this discussion.

I'd say its between us, New England, the Giants, the Eagles, and the Panthers. Thats your top five right there.

With NE I think Mankins and Light (when healthy) are elites, and the rest are all well above average. By and large they're very familiar with their system which is a huge plus. They're top tier in both run and pass situations, but can be exposed when each guy is put out on an island against elite pass rushers, but then what line doesn't have that weakness.

The Giants only have one guy I'd consider elite, Sean O'Hara, but they work as one hell of a cohesive unit and do so in both phases. Like the Pats very few of their OL can handle being isolated against an elite pass rusher, but thankfully for them they seem to stockpile the DLs who qualify for that title.

Philly should be interesting. For their roles I'd say Peters and both Andrews boys are potentially elite. If they get '07 Jason Peters and the second Andrews brother steps in without them missing a hitch they're better than last year's already top 5 OL. But there has been some risk engendered in hoping that both guys can hit the ground running. From a talent standpoint they're better than both of the previous units, but they've got some legitimate questions about if they can put it all together from day one.

Then there's Carolina. I don't think its overselling to say that Jordan Gross is a top 5 OT in this league, that Travelle Wharton isn't far behind as an OG, that Jeff Otah is one of hte best young RTs in the NFL himself, and that Ryan Kalil might be the best center in the league under 30. The only one of their starting five over 28 is Keydrick Vincent, the weakest link in the group (and still not particularly a slouch). They've got above average size on the left and freakish size on the right, which they've used to run roughshod over the league much of last year.

To me thats your #1 OL right there. From a talent standpoint we stack up with Carolina pretty well, but Ham and Weigmann also mean we're older at a few key spots, and we're making some significant tweaks to the offensive system while counting on the excellent years from Clady and Harris to not just be one year wonders while Carolina is just worrying about a sophomore slump from one guy (Otah).

I think we beat the Pats and Giants on talent alone, and even with a pair of sophs and a pair of over 30's we're still more proven than Philly's significantly overhauled line. Carolina though, its hard to say we're better than them and not feel like a homer afterwards.

Caveat Lector
06-07-2009, 04:45 AM
Top post. Agree re the Cowboys, living off past glory. While they still run the ball well, the reason they fell apart down the stretch was because they couldn't protect Romo....

elsid13
06-07-2009, 07:22 AM
I think that most on the board are overestimating how good the line is. It good but not great. It shows promise on pass protection but still struggles with run blocking and short yardage power running plays. Add it the lack of depth and it far from elite. It in the upper tier of o-lines but far from the best in the league.

FISH
06-07-2009, 07:25 AM
I think this year will define how great our Offensive line is. With Cutler (he saved them on many occasions because of his mobility) gone and a somewhat slower Kyle Orton projected behind center we will see how well our offensive line can hold up. That said..a few more sacks wont change the fact that they are very good. I wait to see just how good.

BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 07:28 AM
I wouldn't say putting 3 guys in the Pro Bowl two years running is "past" glory ... Leonard Davis just arrived in Dallas two years ago. And I for one kinda like non-Pro Bowler RT Mark Colombo, one of the better right tackles.

Leonard Davis's reincarnation from disappointing OT to Pro-Bowl OG seems like the kind of the change maybe George Foster could use. They're both damn tall for guards, but both had similar disappointing first few years at OT. Drek, you think Foster might do well with such a change in Cleveland?

400HZ
06-07-2009, 10:14 AM
Giants and then Carolina. Dallas is borderline top 10. Not enough athleticism.

gyldenlove
06-07-2009, 10:36 AM
Tennessee is strongly underrated, they have a top set of tackles and some very good interior run blocking.

epicSocialism4tw
06-07-2009, 10:47 AM
Dallas has the most overrated line in football. They're good, but Dallas is going to send a lot of folks to the pro-bowl simply by virtue of who they are (that there are a lot of ex-cowboys sprinkled through the media helps even more).

That said, I know for sure that the Broncos have the best tackles in the league. I think Kuper is tremendous (and is only going to get better). If Wiegeman plays like he did last year, I think it's the best group in the league.


The Dallas line is always overrated. In fact, just about every position in Dallas is overrated every year. Its just the way it is. Its the same way in the NBA with the Knicks and Lakers, and the same way in soccer with Man U. Whether or not they are good, they are overrated still.

The Broncos definitely have the best young line in the league. Maybe the best period.

Drek
06-07-2009, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't say putting 3 guys in the Pro Bowl two years running is "past" glory ... Leonard Davis just arrived in Dallas two years ago. And I for one kinda like non-Pro Bowler RT Mark Colombo, one of the better right tackles.

Leonard Davis's reincarnation from disappointing OT to Pro-Bowl OG seems like the kind of the change maybe George Foster could use. They're both damn tall for guards, but both had similar disappointing first few years at OT. Drek, you think Foster might do well with such a change in Cleveland?
Dallas is incredibly one dimensional though. Davis is a standout run blocking OG, but he's mediocre in pass pro. The same holds true for Adams at this point in his career. Gurode is the only standout guy in both pass and run situations, and I don't think he's really the #1 OC in the NFC (I'd take Sean O'Hara over him for instance). Then you have Marc Colombo who has put together a few decent years now but hasn't really established himself as an elite OT by any stretch, and Kyle Kosier who's just an ok starter.

They're weak in a lot of facets of protection, and its a big reason why their team struggled so much last year.

As for George Foster, he's a scrub. Dude outright doesn't want it bad enough and has never put in the work on his fundamentals. As a result he's now nearly 30 and still plays with less refinement and technique than what a half dozen rookie OTs showed last year. Moving inside won't solve his problems, going to the CFL where his athletic advantages are enough to get by on will.

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 12:54 PM
I'm gonna have to go with NE with Brady coming back.

I'm expecting Denver's OL to take a step back with Orton or Simms and more pocket passing, and the YPC on the ground to diminish against significantly more 8 in the box fronts.

I'd rank:

NE
NYG
Tenn
Indy
NO
Philly
SD
Car
Dallas
Atl
AZ
Den
Cle
Mia
Chi
Minn
Hou
Jets
TB
Balt
GB
Sea
Wash
Pitt
Jax
KC
Buff
Cinci
St Louis
Oak
9ers
Detroit

Did I get them all?

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2009, 01:01 PM
Lichtensteiger is sort of an unknown, don't you think?

yes but when we drafted him he was ranked as the best C prospect in that draft, and has been being groomed for 2 years now. at the worst we will have a well prepared guy who knows his role inside and out and can perform at least decently.

BroncoBuff
06-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I'd rank:

NE
NYG
Tenn
Indy
NO
Philly
SD
Car
Dallas
Atl
AZ
Den
Cle
Mia
Chi
Minn
Hou
Jets
TB
Balt
GB
Sea
Wash
Pitt
Jax
KC - 26
Buff
Cinci
St Louis
Oak
9ers
Detroit

Oh how the mighty chefs O-line has crumbled ..... :~ohyah!:

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Oh how the mighty chefs O-line has crumbled ..... :~ohyah!:

Also, if this years crop of rookie OTs is nearly as good as the past couple years, StLouis, Cinci, Balt, and Jax can fly up...

lex
06-07-2009, 05:18 PM
Giants and then Carolina. Dallas is borderline top 10. Not enough athleticism.

This

azbroncfan
06-07-2009, 05:36 PM
New Englands OL is pretty good.

spdirty
06-07-2009, 08:58 PM
Well if we do you can count on the coach to make some changes there.

footstepsfrom#27
06-07-2009, 09:26 PM
I think that most on the board are overestimating how good the line is. It good but not great. It shows promise on pass protection but still struggles with run blocking and short yardage power running plays. Add it the lack of depth and it far from elite. It in the upper tier of o-lines but far from the best in the league.
I'll go along with this. They were an elite pass blocking group, but have some things to prove in the running game. On top of that...Cutler's mobility bought helped the sack totals. Weigman is leaving after this year and Hamilton IMO has always been overrated, certainly as a run blocker where he gets abused by big interior DTs. Kuper and the two tackles give us a foundation though, so if the kids on the second unit progress we should be fine.

The Cowboys are way overrated.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:06 AM
It's tough to say. This new system is more cerebral which means until players get it there will be an increase in mental errors. I think they are one of the top lines in the league with the talent and youth we have. The increased focus on the run game will help a lot. I just don't know. I project top five for sure, but I think the change in system will prevent us from being "the best" next season.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:10 AM
I'll go along with this. They were an elite pass blocking group, but have some things to prove in the running game. On top of that...Cutler's mobility bought helped the sack totals.
False. The run blocking was actually excellent but we didn't have a back who could exploit it. Pass pro is harder anyway.

Also Cutler's mobility didn't help sacks. Mobility = more sacks every time. Cutler held the ball a long time. It's amazing how much time Cutler had all year - especially with no threat to run.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 02:14 AM
It's tough to say. This new system is more cerebral which means until players get it there will be an increase in mental errors. I think they are one of the top lines in the league with the talent and youth we have. The increased focus on the run game will help a lot. I just don't know. I project top five for sure, but I think the change in system will prevent us from being "the best" next season.

Please address my rankings on previous page and list which teams you think it will be better than

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:28 AM
Please address my rankings on previous page and list which teams you think it will be better than

My guess?

NYG
NE
Tenn
Den
Car
SD
Indy
AZ
Atl
Mia
Wash
Philly
Minn
NO
Cle
Dallas
Jets
Hou
Buff
Chi
Balt
TB
Jax
GB
Sea
Pitt
KC
Cinci
Oak
9ers
Detroit
St Louis

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 02:31 AM
^^^ If Cutler were under center with Moreno or Hillis in the backfield, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

However, with Orton/Simms... no ****ing chance do we pass that many roughly equivalently talented OLs with far superior vet QBs...

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:35 AM
^^^ If Cutler were under center with Moreno or Hillis in the backfield, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

However, with Orton/Simms... no ****ing chance do we pass that many roughly equivalently talented OLs with far superior vet QBs...

Wait are you asking me to rank sacks given up or who will have the best offensive line?

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Wait are you asking me to rank sacks given up or who will have the best offensive line?

OL unit. But it's a symbiotic game so you can't credit talent alone, ie: last years OL unit vastly out performed their talent levels.

My point: With Orton/Simms under center, we'll run more and won't scare as many D's with the pass. More 8 in the box fronts and run blitzes will make our rushing attack suffer despite the additions. As for "sacks", noodle arm queers that blow penis and can't properly identify blitzes will go down more often.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 02:46 AM
OL unit. But it's a symbiotic game so you can't credit talent alone, ie: last years OL unit vastly out performed their talent levels.

My point: With Orton/Simms under center, we'll run more and won't scare as many D's with the pass. More 8 in the box fronts and run blitzes will make our rushing attack suffer despite the additions. As for "sacks", noodle arm queers that blow penis and can't properly identify blitzes will go down more often.
Orton made a lot of his own line adjustments and with a better center and killer tackles he'll look much better. Also his "noodle" arm isn't noodle at all. He has a better arm than Drew Brees. With Hillis, Marshall, Graham and Moreno, McD will make this unit dump-off happy. You're right in that our yards per pass attempt will plummet, but I guarantee you right now Orton checks down so much this year that teams have a harder time getting to him.

Cutler went for the jugular and that meant longer periods holding the ball. He also would panic and throw it crazy when he should have taken a sack or thrown the ball away. McD will tell him to take sacks when it's not there, but he'll also get enough of our receivers in the passing game to force a safety back. Marshall's YAC threat alone means you can't just let some 5-10 195lb DB hope to tackle him. I agree we'll run more but that will just make Orton's PA more respectable, which helps the line. We might take more sacks, but I think we'll still be a top five unit and the improved physicality in the run game will offset any perceived decline.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 02:53 AM
Orton made a lot of his own line adjustments and with a better center and killer tackles he'll look much better. Also his "noodle" arm isn't noodle at all. He has a better arm than Drew Brees. With Hillis, Marshall, Graham and Moreno, McD will make this unit dump-off happy. You're right in that our yards per pass attempt will plummet, but I guarantee you right now Orton checks down so much this year that teams have a harder time getting to him.

Cutler went for the jugular and that meant longer periods holding the ball. He also would panic and throw it crazy when he should have taken a sack or thrown the ball away. McD will tell him to take sacks when it's not there, but he'll also get enough of our receivers in the passing game to force a safety back. Marshall's YAC threat alone means you can't just let some 5-10 195lb DB hope to tackle him. I agree we'll run more but that will just make Orton's PA more respectable, which helps the line. We might take more sacks, but I think we'll still be a top five unit and the improved physicality in the run game will offset any perceived decline.

Sorry... no chance can I agree with this post.

First off, saying Weigman is better than Kreutz is madness on this level:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3623/thisisspartafa9.jpg

Secondly, as a big 10 fan, you'll need some actual evidence to convince me Orton has a better arm that Brees... with about a decade of sample size, there is NONE to date.

Thirdly, how viable will Marshall be without a viable QB? And in that same regard, we know damn well how viable (or, in reality, the exact opposite) Royal is when Marshall can't hold bracket coverage.

Finally, Jay slander isn't necessary. Making "panic" and "crazy" throws, he achieved 4500+ yards on a unit that didn't get the ball often and when it did, it was in poor position. You can count the QBs that could've done the same on the 2008 team with less than 1 hand, regardless of the level of denial Bronco nation is in.

elsid13
06-08-2009, 02:55 AM
False. The run blocking was actually excellent but we didn't have a back who could exploit it. Pass pro is harder anyway.

Also Cutler's mobility didn't help sacks. Mobility = more sacks every time. Cutler held the ball a long time. It's amazing how much time Cutler had all year - especially with no threat to run.

Go watch the Jets/Denver game again. There was a play were Clady was thrown on the ground like little girl and the DE had clean shot at Cutler for the sack. Cutler saw him coming, rolled right, and completed a pass. Instead of sack that was completion.

Were a QB stand and how he drops back means more then you believe to helping his line in pass protection.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 02:58 AM
Go watch the Jets/Denver game again. There was a play were Clady was thrown on the ground like little girl and the DE had clean shot at Cutler for the sack. Cutler saw him coming, rolled right, and completed a pass. Instead of sack that was completion.

Were a QB stand and how he drops back means more then you believe to helping his line in pass protection.

Better example:

Carolina

Peppers held without a stat. Clady did marginal AT BEST against him, realistically, smacked around on MANY plays. Not Jay's best performance stat wise, but considering the volume of pressure...

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 03:16 AM
Go watch the Jets/Denver game again. There was a play were Clady was thrown on the ground like little girl and the DE had clean shot at Cutler for the sack. Cutler saw him coming, rolled right, and completed a pass. Instead of sack that was completion.

Were a QB stand and how he drops back means more then you believe to helping his line in pass protection.
Not really. I know as good as anyone here what makes for a low sack offense. It is not mobility. You can argue that it has helped him on occasion, and no doubt it has, but statistically the most mobile QB's that try and "evade" pressure to make a play take more sacks. It's one of the reasons the Steelers' sack totals are inflated: Big Ben holds the ball too long. The lowest sack producing offenses are ones based on good pocket protection with a smart QB that knows where he's going with the ball each play. It is NOT mobile QB's. Look at the best protecting teams in the NFL: Patriots, Colts, Titans. Those aren't teams with mobile QB's. The real mobile athletic QB's take a lot of sacks. You can cite examples where Jay's athleticism helped himm get out of trouble, but I'm not arguing it didn't help him in those instances.

Sorry... no chance can I agree with this post.

First off, saying Weigman is better than Kreutz is madness on this level:
As a pure blocker, sure Kreutz is better. But as captain of the offensive line Wiegman is one of the best.

Secondly, as a big 10 fan, you'll need some actual evidence to convince me Orton has a better arm that Brees... with about a decade of sample size, there is NONE to date.
Watch them play. Brees has gotten stronger over the years, but Orton has more zip on his intermediate and long throws.

Thirdly, how viable will Marshall be without a viable QB? And in that same regard, we know damn well how viable (or, in reality, the exact opposite) Royal is when Marshall can't hold bracket coverage.
Marshall did most of his work on YAC. He lead the league two years ago in that category. Jay is more accurate and deadly than most QB's but that isn't going to take away the other things Marshall did well. And you just said that they'll be loading the line and now you're saying Marshall might not beat double coverage which will hurt Royal. They only have 11 guys.

Finally, Jay slander isn't necessary. Making "panic" and "crazy" throws, he achieved 4500+ yards on a unit that didn't get the ball often and when it did, it was in poor position. You can count the QBs that could've done the same on the 2008 team with less than 1 hand, regardless of the level of denial Bronco nation is in.
I'm not taking away what he did. That is a characteristic of Cutler:He holds the ball. It kills you on those thirty yard completions but it has it's drawbacks as well.

BroncoBuff
06-08-2009, 03:19 AM
Thirdly, how viable will Marshall be without a viable QB?

In my recollection, elite WRs get theirs no matter who's at QB. They might go up and down a bit, but not as much as it might seem.

Sometimes they actually go up with lesser QBs because that QB leans on them, rides them like a crutch. That happened to Tim Brown with the Raiders some.

TheReverend
06-08-2009, 03:28 AM
As a pure blocker, sure Kreutz is better. But as captain of the offensive line Wiegman is one of the best.

Isn't this the same category of intangibles that you spent all last season making fun of? IE: "Heart" :rofl:

Watch them play. Brees has gotten stronger over the years, but Orton has more zip on his intermediate and long throws.

I beg to differ... Drew made the spread dangerous at Purdue, and aside from a couple lackluster years in SD, his arm has been dangerous in the NFL. Orton has yet to make either a reality, and, in all honesty, probably won't.

Marshall did most of his work on YAC. He lead the league two years ago in that category. Jay is more accurate and deadly than most QB's but that isn't going to take away the other things Marshall did well. And you just said that they'll be loading the line and now you're saying Marshall might not beat double coverage which will hurt Royal. They only have 11 guys.

Most his work AC in 2007 or 2008? Marshall was tied for 12th in YAC last season with 439 yards. Sounds good initially until you realize he had 104 catches, and his YAC average was pedestrian at best.

And yes, I just said they'll be loading the line and Marshall might not COMMAND bracket (not double) coverage. Very large difference. Bracket is much more defense intensive than double.

I'm not taking away what he did. That is a characteristic of Cutler:He holds the ball. It kills you on those thirty yard completions but it has it's drawbacks as well.

List experienced draw backs then, please?



In red.

alamosa bronco
06-08-2009, 06:28 AM
CHICAGO how that CRY BABY CUTLER is there

lex
06-08-2009, 07:20 AM
CHICAGO how that CRY BABY CUTLER is there


LOL

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 07:26 AM
False. The run blocking was actually excellent but we didn't have a back who could exploit it. Pass pro is harder anyway.
False. The run blocking benefitted enormously from the threat of Cutler's arm and the wealth of targets in the passing game, which kept defenses from selling out on the run. On top of that, the red zone and short yardage blocking was not very good.
Also Cutler's mobility didn't help sacks. Mobility = more sacks every time. Cutler held the ball a long time. It's amazing how much time Cutler had all year - especially with no threat to run.
Nonsense. Mobility does not "equal more sacks every time". I'm sure you think you've found some hidden statistical gem that proves this, but having a QB that can escape the rush is OBVIOUSLY going to buy your line more time. What MIGHT be true in many...I seriously doubt you can make a case for "all" cases...is that mobile QB's probably run on their own more often and probably get tackles behind the line when their attempting to run factored in as sacks, or in some cases they may try to escape instead of throwing the ball away. You cannot tell me that having a statue back there actually helps the offensive line...sorry, I'm not buying that. This silly notion equates to this line yielding maybe what?...5 sacks this year? If you're right...Orton/Simms ought to get sacked much less than Cutler, especially given the year of maturity that those three kids on the line now have under their belts and the increased threat we have with a guy like Moreno in the backfield.

You're just looking for new ways to diss Cutler...sad really.

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 11:01 AM
False. The run blocking benefitted enormously from the threat of Cutler's arm and the wealth of targets in the passing game, which kept defenses from selling out on the run. On top of that, the red zone and short yardage blocking was not very good.

Nonsense. Mobility does not "equal more sacks every time". I'm sure you think you've found some hidden statistical gem that proves this, but having a QB that can escape the rush is OBVIOUSLY going to buy your line more time. What MIGHT be true in many...I seriously doubt you can make a case for "all" cases...is that mobile QB's probably run on their own more often and probably get tackles behind the line when their attempting to run factored in as sacks, or in some cases they may try to escape instead of throwing the ball away. You cannot tell me that having a statue back there actually helps the offensive line...sorry, I'm not buying that. This silly notion equates to this line yielding maybe what?...5 sacks this year? If you're right...Orton/Simms ought to get sacked much less than Cutler, especially given the year of maturity that those three kids on the line now have under their belts and the increased threat we have with a guy like Moreno in the backfield.

You're just looking for new ways to diss Cutler...sad really.

No it's not. See this is why I don't bother arguing with you because even if I present you with data, like the fact that least sacked QB's are not mobile ones, you come back with "nope. That's not true." Elway, Vick, Young, and other "mobile" QB's are among the most sacked QB's in league history.

Not taking sacks involves: Pocket presence, familiarity with your offensive system, knowing where to go with the ball in what situation, a quick release and a good offensive line. Mobile quarterbacks get sacked more. It's a fact. Look it up.

You've been owned, as usual. ;)

Rock Chalk
06-08-2009, 11:38 AM
Last year the two best lines in the league by all accounts were Denver and Tennessee.

BroncoMan4ever
06-08-2009, 11:45 AM
False. The run blocking benefitted enormously from the threat of Cutler's arm and the wealth of targets in the passing game, which kept defenses from selling out on the run. On top of that, the red zone and short yardage blocking was not very good.

Nonsense. Mobility does not "equal more sacks every time". I'm sure you think you've found some hidden statistical gem that proves this, but having a QB that can escape the rush is OBVIOUSLY going to buy your line more time. What MIGHT be true in many...I seriously doubt you can make a case for "all" cases...is that mobile QB's probably run on their own more often and probably get tackles behind the line when their attempting to run factored in as sacks, or in some cases they may try to escape instead of throwing the ball away. You cannot tell me that having a statue back there actually helps the offensive line...sorry, I'm not buying that. This silly notion equates to this line yielding maybe what?...5 sacks this year? If you're right...Orton/Simms ought to get sacked much less than Cutler, especially given the year of maturity that those three kids on the line now have under their belts and the increased threat we have with a guy like Moreno in the backfield.

You're just looking for new ways to diss Cutler...sad really.

i understand what you are saying about the lack of mobility by orton and simms when compared with Jay. but Orton is not a statue behind the line. he actually has good pocket presence, he is able to slide and maneuver in the pocket to buy himself a little extra time to find an open receiver or get rid of the ball.

BroncoBuff
06-08-2009, 01:28 PM
Last year the two best lines in the league by all accounts were Denver and Tennessee.

Yeah, I shouldda put Tennessee and NE in there.

I still don't understand everybody dissing Dallas ... zero votes? Sheesh, three Pro Bowlers two years running is no freaking joke guys. Plus Mark Colombo at RT who's pretty good too.

There's a lotta Cowboys hate around here ... :~ohyah!:

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 02:37 PM
No it's not. See this is why I don't bother arguing with you because even if I present you with data, like the fact that least sacked QB's are not mobile ones, you come back with "nope. That's not true." Elway, Vick, Young, and other "mobile" QB's are among the most sacked QB's in league history.

Not taking sacks involves: Pocket presence, familiarity with your offensive system, knowing where to go with the ball in what situation, a quick release and a good offensive line. Mobile quarterbacks get sacked more. It's a fact. Look it up.

You've been owned, as usual. ;)
Owned? Baaahaaa! Riiiiiggghhhttt...the only thing you own from me is a leash & collar. !Booya!

Just because you toss out a couple of names...which you provide no numbers on...you think you proved something?

We both know why you like to don't argue with me.

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 02:41 PM
i understand what you are saying about the lack of mobility by orton and simms when compared with Jay. but Orton is not a statue behind the line. he actually has good pocket presence, he is able to slide and maneuver in the pocket to buy himself a little extra time to find an open receiver or get rid of the ball.
That's a pretty good description. Manning has that ability as well, though nobody will ever say he's mobile. Jay's ability to elude the rush and buy time went beyond that to the ability to threaten the defense with his feet. Of course if he were in a wheelchair he wouldn't have been sacked at all according to Kaylore.

Most people assume it's going to be Orton. In truth both he and Siims have been similar, though perhaps Orton an edge since he came in the trade.

Rashomon
06-08-2009, 02:50 PM
i understand what you are saying about the lack of mobility by orton and simms when compared with Jay. but Orton is not a statue behind the line. he actually has good pocket presence, he is able to slide and maneuver in the pocket to buy himself a little extra time to find an open receiver or get rid of the ball.

You mind showing a couple of examples where Orton showed good pocket presence and maneuverability to buy himself time and make a play? I have looked, but couldn't find any. Orton's lack of awareness, and immobility ranked up there with his lack of accuracy on the reasons that Chicago was looking for a different solution at QB.

summerdenver
06-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Not taking sacks involves: Pocket presence, familiarity with your offensive system, knowing where to go with the ball in what situation, a quick release and a good offensive line.


Wow you don't think Jay had all these attributes last year?

watermock
06-08-2009, 03:13 PM
I don't know how good our OL is at sustaning blocks in the run game, especially with a 4.6 powerback.

With Cutler back there, we were pretty impervios to the pass rush.

Mediator12
06-08-2009, 03:59 PM
This is an easy one:

CAR hands down was the top OL. Tops in third and fourth and short in the league or power success running. They should get better this year.

Followed closely by TEN and NYG who played together better than the sum of their parts.

Then, you get into the third tier which includes DEN, NYJ, NO, and Maybe NE and INDY when they are healthy.

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Orton made a lot of his own line adjustments and with a better center and killer tackles he'll look much better.
The 6 time pro bowler vs. Weigman? Sorry..."he's a better leader" was a very lamo-o response...There is no question that Kreutz is better.
The lowest sack producing offenses are ones based on good pocket protection with a smart QB that knows where he's going with the ball each play. It is NOT mobile QB's. Look at the best protecting teams in the NFL: Patriots, Colts, Titans.
The Patriots gave up 48 sacks last year, 5th worse in the NFL. Most of the top 10 worst pass protection teams by sacks have QB's not noted for their mobility.

mrfabulous
06-08-2009, 04:48 PM
I'll go along with this. They were an elite pass blocking group, but have some things to prove in the running game. On top of that...Cutler's mobility bought helped the sack totals. Weigman is leaving after this year and Hamilton IMO has always been overrated, certainly as a run blocker where he gets abused by big interior DTs. Kuper and the two tackles give us a foundation though, so if the kids on the second unit progress we should be fine.

The Cowboys are way overrated.

Please point out the game where this happened.

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Please point out the game where this happened.
Wow. Point out one where it didn't. I don't save games on DVD anymore or I'd gladly look one up for you. If you have game footage, find something on him going up agaisnt Jax big interior DT's or SD's Jamal Williams for starters. He's a good trap/cut blocker but he gets overwhelmed at the point of attack frequently when faced up against bigger opponents. I've never been a big Hamilton fan, and he gets pimped in here way more than he should IMO.

Sim Pilot 4.0
06-08-2009, 06:11 PM
Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Giants, Colts etc.

Denver is good but not in the top 10

mrfabulous
06-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Well, I have saved all the games from last year. I appreciate the line play so I watch them all pretty closely and I disagree with your opinion of how Ben plays in the run game. I was at the Jacksonville game last year. Not the team's finest hour but I can tell you that the line played pretty well and Ben had a damn good game against Henderson and Jimmy Kennedy. I believe that you, sir, have a bias against skinny offensive linemen.

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 06:19 PM
I believe that you, sir, have a bias against skinny offensive linemen.
That and white people. ROFL!

BroncoBuff
06-08-2009, 07:04 PM
This is an easy one:

CAR hands down was the top OL. Tops in third and fourth and short in the league or power success running. They should get better this year.

Followed closely by TEN and NYG who played together better than the sum of their parts.

Then, you get into the third tier which includes DEN, NYJ, NO, and Maybe NE and INDY when they are healthy.

Dallas not even in the TOP TEN?! With three Pro-Bowlers each of the last two years and Mark Colombo?

Okay, but you guys kill me, you really do. I don't like the Cowboys either, but I'm not gonna pretend all the players, coaches, fans and media are wrong. The OM is good ... but not that good. ;)

footstepsfrom#27
06-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Dallas not even in the TOP TEN?! With three Pro-Bowlers each of the last two years and Mark Colombo?

Okay, but you guys kill me, you really do. I don't like the Cowboys either, but I'm not gonna pretend all the players, coaches, fans and media are wrong. The OM is good ... but not that good. ;)
Fair enough. Now consider this; Marion "Jim Brown" Barber...averaged 3.7 ypc last year.

Why?

BroncoBuff
06-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Fair enough. Now consider this; Marion "Jim Brown" Barber...averaged 3.7 ypc last year.

Why?

Point taken .....

s0phr0syne
06-08-2009, 07:49 PM
Okay, so this is on topic with this thread, and I'm surprised it hasn't been posted in a thread of its own, but earlier today on Rotoworld, they had a little blurb from an article talking about Casey Wiegmann and how he was dissatisfied that his contract issue still has not been addressed by the Broncos.

In the blurb, it mentioned that Wiegmann was unhappy with the cheap backup contract he signed last year when he clearly outplayed it, and that if he wasn't given a new offer for this year, his agent Joe Linta was saying he was seriously considering retiring.

Now, "Where's the link?" you might be asking--that's the weird part, just searched rotoworld and the nets, but I can't find the article anywhere. Looks like they took it down.

But, it is still a discussion worthy point: Should the Broncos compensate Wiegmann for his contributions last year or let him walk if it comes down to it?

BroncoBuff
06-08-2009, 08:00 PM
No way sOph ... he was re-signed, a nice 2-year deal.

~Crash~
06-08-2009, 08:25 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Hamrob
06-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Not even close. I mean...everyone knows that our offense sucked last year with Cutler at the helm. I mean...we couldn't even score.

That must mean that our Oline couldn't open holes or pass protect when it counted...right?

Couldn't have been that our defense, special teams and field positon were amongst the worst in the league.

Because we were only 16th in scoring despite being 2nd overall in offense...we sucked. Our Oline must have been average at best.

Right?

Kaylore
06-08-2009, 10:39 PM
Wow you don't think Jay had all these attributes last year?

Of course he had some. When he was really on and knew where he was going with the ball he could zip it out without getting touched. He also got light years better at stepping into his throws rather than fleeing backwards against the rush. He needs to work on dumping of especially to the backs. There were several times where a back would leak upfield and it would have been an easy seven yard pass with about ten after the catch. So he has things he did well and they contributed to our low sack total. However his "mobility" is not one that contributed. QB's that try and buy time buy scrambling around will make some plays, but they also end up getting sacked more and sometimes making silly throws. Cutler had his part in this as well.

summerdenver
06-09-2009, 01:00 AM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

We had one of the best OL hands down in all categories except (behind RT #10) but still we had only 10 more RB carries(# 30) than the last placed Ari. I want to throw the aids cobra at Bates after seeing this stat.

Mediator12
06-09-2009, 06:16 AM
You mind showing a couple of examples where Orton showed good pocket presence and maneuverability to buy himself time and make a play? I have looked, but couldn't find any. Orton's lack of awareness, and immobility ranked up there with his lack of accuracy on the reasons that Chicago was looking for a different solution at QB.

Let's see, there was the MIN game where their defense gave up 40+ points and CHI still scored 48 with them. That is with Devin Hester out of the game in the second half and Forte getting 56 yards on the ground. So, Orton did all right there and showed massive pocket mobility as Jared Allen and the DL of MIN was in his face all day.

He played very well against TB, being mobile in the pocket but had 2 tipped pass INT's.

Finally, he played great against HOU in the final game of the season. He made plays on the move and under pressure.

So, that would be 3 games I saw recently where he played well under pressure and on the move.

Mediator12
06-09-2009, 06:49 AM
Not even close. I mean...everyone knows that our offense sucked last year with Cutler at the helm. I mean...we couldn't even score.

That must mean that our Oline couldn't open holes or pass protect when it counted...right?

Couldn't have been that our defense, special teams and field positon were amongst the worst in the league.

Because we were only 16th in scoring despite being 2nd overall in offense...we sucked. Our Oline must have been average at best.

Right?


You have a major point about Defense and ST's, but you also have no point in how the OL and offense failed in the red zone. DEN was 16th in TD% and 28th in Scoring % in the red Zone. A lot of that success also came in the first 4 weeks when DEN's spread offense confused everyone. By the end of the year they were regresssing and not getting better.

The OL was very good for DEN last year, but like most they were inconsistent at times and mostly down the stretch. As I said, they were a top 7 unit that could be as good as top 3 this year with some more experience and consistency. That had 2 first time starting tackles who played extremely well, a first time starting guard, and 2 wily veterans who are excellent technicians. As the young guys gain experience and technique they will improve and be one of the best, with the potential to be the best OL units in the league.

That is why I think the average QB will do just fine in DEN's offense. Their running game will be more consistent against power defenses, the pass protection will improve, and hopefully they will improve on short yardage and goaline runs. IMHO, they will be much improved in those areas this year allowing the offense to be more efficient in scoring while not necessarily gaining 400+ yards a game like last year.

The key will be if the defense and ST's can improve with them.

400HZ
06-09-2009, 07:38 AM
No way sOph ... he was re-signed, a nice 2-year deal.

Wiegmann frustrated with his situation

June 8, 2009 6:25 PM


Posted by ESPN.com's Bill Williamson

Denver Pro Bowl center Casey Wiegmann told the Colorado Springs Gazette on Monday he wants a contract extension.

Wiegmann indicated he could consider retirement if he doesn't get an extension prior to training camp. Wiegmann, who'll turn 36 shortly before the start of camp, said it would be "tough" to report to training camp without a new deal.

Wiegmann's agent and the team have discussed a contract, but a deal is not close. Wiegmann decided in early February to return the 2009 season. However, his agent, Joe Linta, has said often that Wiegmann was hoping to get a new deal. He signed a modest two-year deal with Denver's previous regime last year. After long-time Denver center Tom Nalen, who is now retired, couldn't play in 2009 because of a knee injury, Wiegmann emerged as a Pro Bowl player.

If Wiegmann were to decide to retire, Denver's likely center would be second-year player Kory Lichtensteiger.

footstepsfrom#27
06-09-2009, 07:52 AM
Wiegmann frustrated with his situation

June 8, 2009 6:25 PM


Posted by ESPN.com's Bill Williamson

Denver Pro Bowl center Casey Wiegmann told the Colorado Springs Gazette on Monday he wants a contract extension.

Wiegmann indicated he could consider retirement if he doesn't get an extension prior to training camp. Wiegmann, who'll turn 36 shortly before the start of camp, said it would be "tough" to report to training camp without a new deal.

Wiegmann's agent and the team have discussed a contract, but a deal is not close. Wiegmann decided in early February to return the 2009 season. However, his agent, Joe Linta, has said often that Wiegmann was hoping to get a new deal. He signed a modest two-year deal with Denver's previous regime last year. After long-time Denver center Tom Nalen, who is now retired, couldn't play in 2009 because of a knee injury, Wiegmann emerged as a Pro Bowl player.

If Wiegmann were to decide to retire, Denver's likely center would be second-year player Kory Lichtensteiger.
This was probably his last year anyway.

BroncoBuff
06-09-2009, 10:16 AM
This was probably his last year anyway.

Hope not ... we need Weigmann back for at least one year to transition to Kory, Seth or Blake.

Or ... why not Ben at center? He's got 3 or 4 years left, maybe more.

mrfabulous
06-09-2009, 03:51 PM
Hope not ... we need Weigmann back for at least one year to transition to Kory, Seth or Blake.

Or ... why not Ben at center? He's got 3 or 4 years left, maybe more.

It's possible. Ben and Casey took all the snaps at center for team drills during OTAs and minicamps, and Ben ran with the first team (at center) when Wiegmann was away at his father's birthday.