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Bigdawg26
06-05-2009, 12:32 PM
32. Josh McDaniels, Broncos. No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot.
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556480

He's really making an impression on the media and fans...

crush17
06-05-2009, 12:38 PM
sigh...
can't wait for him to prove everyone wrong.

Man-Goblin
06-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Oh noes.

Broncos123
06-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Lower than Cable, i think not

Doggcow
06-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Sportingnews is ****ing retarded.

Pseudofool
06-05-2009, 12:45 PM
They ranked all the new young coaches at the bottom. I mean, they should have given incompletes to new hires. Seriously shoddy.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 12:46 PM
He.didnt.trade.him.for.the.love.of.god.

BMarsh615
06-05-2009, 12:48 PM
ROFL! People are actually trying to defend McDaniels.

gyldenlove
06-05-2009, 12:52 PM
Well, the verdict is in, we may as well fire him and hire someone else since we have the worst HC we can't get any worse.

broncofan2438
06-05-2009, 12:54 PM
wow, its really getting tough for sports writers....just write about whatever, based on your opinions...morons

orange crusher
06-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Norv Turner and Wade Phillips too high IMO.

Man-Goblin
06-05-2009, 12:55 PM
Well, the verdict is in, we may as well fire him and hire someone else since we have the worst HC we can't get any worse.

But we could end up hiring the 33rd best coach...

footstepsfrom#27
06-05-2009, 01:00 PM
He hasn't coached a single game...who can he be ranked ahead of?

Anaximines
06-05-2009, 01:00 PM
furthermore, Nolan isn't even among the top 20 DCs (how could you rank that?)

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556104

The Joker
06-05-2009, 01:03 PM
furthermore, Nolan isn't even among the top 20 DCs (how could you rank that?)

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556104

Pretty sure that 7th is in the Top 20.

Anaximines
06-05-2009, 01:03 PM
FURTHERMORE, they have Marshall listed as the 17th best receiver (has this been discussed?)

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=548492

Anaximines
06-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Pretty sure that 7th is in the Top 20.

ok, no more distracted posting from me

Pseudofool
06-05-2009, 01:08 PM
He hasn't coached a single game...who can he be ranked ahead of?Rex Ryan hasn't either (he's above Mangini).

How can you rank him at all?

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 01:16 PM
He hasn't coached a single game...who can he be ranked ahead of?

Exactly. Yes, the franchise QB is gone, and very little has been done to shore up this horrible defense. So #32 is correct for now, but he'll shoot up the ladder once the guys learn the offense and get on the field.

Eevn though it may be a basically accurate ranking, it's not at all fair. Jay mostly caused his own departure, and McD has the right to break down his new team and build it as he sees fit. We're barely five months in, no need to panic.

Pseudofool
06-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Very little has been done to shore up this horrible defense.Totally right! I mean the secondary, the scheme, the linebackers are totally all the same!

HILife
06-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Pretty sure that 7th is in the Top 20.

You lie. You lie! Stop lieing! 7 is not a real number.

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Totally right! I mean the secondary, the scheme, the linebackers are totally all the same!

Dude, I didn't say they weren't different, I just said he did very little to shore it up. What he did was sign a bunch of old and older free agents. And free agents who've never played much like Fields and McBean.

He did draft a DE and a CB, both of whom have sky-high ceilings, but they're just rookies after all.

footstepsfrom#27
06-05-2009, 01:23 PM
Rex Ryan hasn't either (he's above Mangini).

How can you rank him at all?
Well Ryan hasn't done anything crazy yet either. I don't think they can be ranked, but if you WERE ranking them, somebody has to be last...it figures a rookie and one making controversial decisions would wind up ranked last.

Kaylore
06-05-2009, 01:23 PM
He hasn't coached a single game...who can he be ranked ahead of?

Or behind? Your logic only works one way, and it's usually skewed toward the point you're trying to make. No one can say he is good or bad and so the only acceptable grade is "incomplete". Certainly ranking him dead last isn't warranted because he hasn't coached a game. Even if every single move he made in terms of personnel blows up in his face (unlikely) then those flaws should be counted against his abilities as a GM and not as a coach. To this point he was one of the best coordinators in the league. He was a better coordinator than several of the 31 guys ranked ahead of him.

As a head coach he is an unknown so ranking him at the bottom of the league is as stupid as ranking him at the top.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 01:37 PM
technically we can't argue with how good or bad a coach he migh be. 32ns is a little harsh but fair this offseason.

i mean he did trade away a pro bowler(whether or not his fault don't know or care anymore) and has an uncertain situation at QB now, when that was one of the biggest slling points of coaching in Denver.

he has never coached before

he is very young

and in the eyes of many had a very questionable draft(i personally like it, he didn't reach on players simply because they played an area of need, but took players who will contribute and make the team better)

next offseason's rankings will be the more important rankings for how good or bad he is.

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 01:39 PM
technically we can't argue with how good or bad a coach he migh be. 32ns is a little harsh but fair this offseason.

next offseason's rankings will be the more important rankings for how good or bad he is.
Yup .... these rankings are stupid.

Pseudofool
06-05-2009, 01:58 PM
Dude, I didn't say they weren't different, I just said he did very little to shore it up. What he did was sign a bunch of old and older free agents. And free agents who've never played much like Fields and McBean.

He did draft a DE and a CB, both of whom have sky-high ceilings, but they're just rookies after all.Our secondary is tenfold better. I'm concerned about hte line two, but you can't suggest there's been very little improvement when we bring in a probowler and draft a CB nearly in teh first round.

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Except McDaniels didn't trade him away. Pat Bowlen did. Good gawd.

Kaylore
06-05-2009, 02:02 PM
technically we can't argue with how good or bad a coach he migh be. 32ns is a little harsh but fair this offseason.

These two sentences contradict each other. And no, saying McDaniels is "the worst coach in pro football" is epic stupid.

Jason in LA
06-05-2009, 02:37 PM
I totally agree with the ranking. I hope Josh can prove that ranking wrong, but at this point, why should he be ranked higher?

Atlas
06-05-2009, 02:42 PM
ROFL! People are actually trying to defend McDaniels.

I was predicting 5-11, I might have to lower my expectations.

Karenin
06-05-2009, 02:44 PM
Dude, I didn't say they weren't different, I just said he did very little to shore it up. What he did was sign a bunch of old and older free agents. And free agents who've never played much like Fields and McBean.

He did draft a DE and a CB, both of whom have sky-high ceilings, but they're just rookies after all.

umm... all of these things are "shoring up the defense." Just because we didn't sign 8 pro-bowl caliber players doesn't mean he didn't address the defense.

In fact, instead of b****ing, why don't you tell us what you would have done differently this offseason to "shore up the defense?" Keep in mind, this is real life, not Madden.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 03:02 PM
umm... all of these things are "shoring up the defense." Just because we didn't sign 8 pro-bowl caliber players doesn't mean he didn't address the defense.

In fact, instead of b****ing, why don't you tell us what you would have done differently this offseason to "shore up the defense?" Keep in mind, this is real life, not Madden.

Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 03:04 PM
Or behind? Your logic only works one way, and it's usually skewed toward the point you're trying to make. No one can say he is good or bad and so the only acceptable grade is "incomplete". Certainly ranking him dead last isn't warranted because he hasn't coached a game. Even if every single move he made in terms of personnel blows up in his face (unlikely) then those flaws should be counted against his abilities as a GM and not as a coach. To this point he was one of the best coordinators in the league. He was a better coordinator than several of the 31 guys ranked ahead of him.

As a head coach he is an unknown so ranking him at the bottom of the league is as stupid as ranking him at the top.

It's the approach.

HC's in a new town, especially when it's their first gig, usually approach the situation with more humility and work with what's available. Kubiak kept Carr and tried to make it work the first season. Hell, Linnehan got canned midseason for benching Marc ****ing Bulger.

Does it mean he won't be successful? No, but he's also earned a bit of skepticism, don't you think?

If he's successful, he'll shoot up the rankings and prove himself to be a mastermind.

If he's not, he'll have set this franchise back a decade.

No other first time HC has built himself a situation like it, so atm, before any games are played, he deserves that spot.

boltaneer
06-05-2009, 03:06 PM
I laughed at the ranking and then I remembered that SportingNews is just barely above Bob in terms of credibility.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 03:08 PM
I laughed at the ranking and then I remembered that SportingNews is just barely above Bob in terms of credibility.

Mora Jr over Lovie had me confused

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2009, 03:08 PM
32. Josh McDaniels, Broncos. No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot.
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556480

He's really making an impression on the media and fans...

Looking on the bright side, he's got no where to go but up! ;D

Rabb
06-05-2009, 03:11 PM
Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

honestly, this is not true

our secondary last year was miserable and only overshadowed by the "Defensive" line we had and the 4,567 injuries at running back

the running game was still decent, so don't blame last year on that...it was good enough to win most games

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 03:12 PM
Looking on the bright side, he's got no where to go but up! ;D

Right.

I understand the complaining about the list.

The bottom 7 are all the first time HC's. The last place one (Josh) has had the most tumultuous off-season.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 03:15 PM
Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

I'm not sure that's "all we needed," but you make a decent point.

Looking back at our offense that got so many yards, remember that when we played the Patriots, we could only manage seven points. Against the Panthers we only got 10 points, and against the God-forsaken Raiders we only managed ten (in a home game no less...).

Our offense was a little farther off than it looked - not just a healthy running back anyway.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 03:27 PM
The point being is if there was a consistant back in the backfield and a D-line that could generate even a hint of pressure the secondary would not have looked so bad. It's hard to score inside the 20 when everyone knows to put it in the end zone you are going to have to pass it. I still don't see how either of those problems have been fixed. Yeah we have some new guys, but are they really that much better than the guys they replaced? As for Dawkins, when was the last time Philly let a guy go and he was productive elsewhere?

outdoor_miner
06-05-2009, 03:30 PM
I'm not sure that's "all we needed," but you make a decent point.

Looking back at our offense that got so many yards, remember that when we played the Patriots, we could only manage seven points. Against the Panthers we only got 10 yards, and against the God-forsaken Raiders we only managed ten (in a home game no less...).

Our offense was a little farther off than it looked - not just a healthy running back anyway.

I totally agree. Someone once posted our offensive rankings after the first three or four games, and it was pretty amazing to see the drop off.

I really believe that we took people by surprise with a new scheme early in the season. Bates added a new "twist" that teams weren't expecting. Defenses had little/no film on some of the things we were doing, and we were able to "out scheme" the other teams. However, after that, the newness was gone, and we fell back in the pack. That's not to say we weren't a good offense. But, we were certainly not elite. This team was a long way away from a Super Bowl, and it was most certainly not a given that only a defensive improvement (leaving the offense alone) was going to get us there.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 03:33 PM
I still think the RB of the week hurt the offense more than people think. When you have street free agents and cell phone salesman running the ball teams tend to play the pass.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 03:35 PM
The point being is if there was a consistant back in the backfield and a D-line that could generate even a hint of pressure the secondary would not have looked so bad. It's hard to score inside the 20 when everyone knows to put it in the end zone you are going to have to pass it. I still don't see how either of those problems have been fixed. Yeah we have some new guys, but are they really that much better than the guys they replaced? As for Dawkins, when was the last time Philly let a guy go and he was productive elsewhere?

They've let productive players go.

However, this guy was let go for peanuts, was a fan favorite, a captain, and a cohesive force in the locker room.

People need to understand he's done. If he doesn't get abused this season, it will be a victory.

I'm not trashing this guy for any personal reasons. He's got my favorite tackle of all time:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p99/iverson_03_the_answer/dawkins.gif

But he was a liability all last season. Tack on another year of age, and this was not addressing the problem. I hope intangibles and bringing accountability to the front seven players will make this worth it, but with other better, younger safeties on the market for the same price...

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 03:38 PM
Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

What'd he botch? If the broncos go 5-11, then perhaps he did. If they go 11-5, what did he botch?

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 03:44 PM
What'd he botch? If the broncos go 5-11, then perhaps he did. If they go 11-5, what did he botch?

I want some of what you got if you think this team is going 11-5. And if you think he has handled this offseason perfectly, just wow.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 03:54 PM
I want some of what you got if you think this team is going 11-5. And if you think he has handled this offseason perfectly, just wow.

Yeah, because teams NEVER are unexpectedly good in football. That never happens. What did he botch exactly? His quarterback went ape**** over nothing really and then refused to call the owner back. He repeatedly played the game and tried to mend fences, but cutler had an agenda.

And what was the other screw up? What, you dont agree with his draft? Who is to say you, an uneducated football man, is correct over him? You very well might be, but you dont know that yet.

Wait till you see the friggin team on the field before you dig his grave

Paladin
06-05-2009, 03:54 PM
.........and has botched too many things this offseason.

What exactly has he "botched"? Do not give a general "because I said so" crap. Tell us specifically what he has "botched"".

Paladin
06-05-2009, 03:57 PM
Yeah, because teams NEVER are unexpectedly good in football. That never happens. What did he botch exactly? His quarterback went ape**** over nothing really and then refused to call the owner back. He repeatedly played the game and tried to mend fences, but cutler had an agenda.

And what was the other screw up? What, you dont agree with his draft? Who is to say you, an uneducated football man, is correct over him? You very well might be, but you dont know that yet.

Wait till you see the friggin team on the field before you dig his grave

QFT.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:04 PM
Well lets see, first the Cutler mess then the departure of the Goodmans and the bulk of the scouting dept. And then signing half of the free agent running backs on the market then drafting one with the highest pick they had. And none of us have any idea if the draft picks will pan out, but bundling draft picks to move up and get guys that was just wierd. Im not going to call him a genious just yet but you enjoy the kool-aid guys.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 04:04 PM
These two sentences contradict each other. And no, saying McDaniels is "the worst coach in pro football" is epic stupid.

when i say we can't argue that he is ranked that low, while also saying being dead last is a little harsh, is me thinking it because it is too soon to be labeling him as the worst HC in football.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 04:06 PM
umm... all of these things are "shoring up the defense." Just because we didn't sign 8 pro-bowl caliber players doesn't mean he didn't address the defense.

In fact, instead of b****ing, why don't you tell us what you would have done differently this offseason to "shore up the defense?" Keep in mind, this is real life, not Madden.

i agree completely, only thing i would have added int his offseason was bringing in 1 or 2 more veterans on the line to teach the younger guys. I am still hoping we sign Vonnie Holliday.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:07 PM
when i say we can't argue that he is ranked that low, while also saying being dead last is a little harsh, is me thinking it because it is too soon to be labeling him as the worst HC in football.

I still want to know what he has done to deserve a higher ranking or anything but scepticism.

footstepsfrom#27
06-05-2009, 04:09 PM
Or behind? Your logic only works one way, and it's usually skewed toward the point you're trying to make. No one can say he is good or bad and so the only acceptable grade is "incomplete". Certainly ranking him dead last isn't warranted because he hasn't coached a game. Even if every single move he made in terms of personnel blows up in his face (unlikely) then those flaws should be counted against his abilities as a GM and not as a coach. To this point he was one of the best coordinators in the league. He was a better coordinator than several of the 31 guys ranked ahead of him.

As a head coach he is an unknown so ranking him at the bottom of the league is as stupid as ranking him at the top.
No...it's your logic that's skewed.

Generally experience is consdidered a plus in the coaching ranks, not a neutral or a negative, and since he has none at all as a head coach at any level...yeah, ranking him last is justified. I already stated he shouldn't be ranked, so I'm not sure why you're repeating that. I merely said that if you HAD to rank him, he obviously can't be ranked ahead of anyone who has actualy been a head coach in the NFL.

Second...his GM abilities will obviously impact his ability to win as a head coach, so that argument is just silly.

BMarsh615
06-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Denver is the only team in the NFL that got worse in the off season. Yes Josh McDaniels is the worst head coach in the league.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 04:16 PM
Well lets see, first the Cutler mess then the departure of the Goodmans and the bulk of the scouting dept. And then signing half of the free agent running backs on the market then drafting one with the highest pick they had. And none of us have any idea if the draft picks will pan out, but bundling draft picks to move up and get guys that was just wierd. Im not going to call him a genious just yet but you enjoy the kool-aid guys.

Did either of us calling him a genius? No, we said we'd wait and see before calling him a failure. So i guess waiting and seeing (you know, the logical approach) is drinking the kool aid.

But Ill play

1) you dont know that getting rid of the goodmans is for sure a negative. could be a total non issue as, honestly, a lot of this **** is a guessing game and the goodmans might not even know what mcdaniels really wants.

2) They signed three running backs to 3 low deals. Money was not an issue here, so who gives a ****? Its not like they didnt sign dl's cuz they wanted rbs

3) yeah, moving up to get picks...how bizarre

4) Im still in the camp that the culter fiasco is 99 percent jay's fault.

NFLBRONCO
06-05-2009, 04:16 PM
Yeah, because teams NEVER are unexpectedly good in football. That never happens. What did he botch exactly? His quarterback went ape**** over nothing really and then refused to call the owner back. He repeatedly played the game and tried to mend fences, but cutler had an agenda.

And what was the other screw up? What, you dont agree with his draft? Who is to say you, an uneducated football man, is correct over him? You very well might be, but you dont know that yet.

Wait till you see the friggin team on the field before you dig his grave

TY this offseason has been a drag. Everyone is digging a hole for our new HC GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE GEEZ. If he sucks we will get a new guy in a few years. McD is getting too much heat for the player that wanted out the day Shanny was fired. I'm not thrilled about 2010 #1 pick trade but, like the player they added. I would have rather added a front 7 player though. If we go 4-12 at least we can avoid paying top 10 money. I'm not 100% sure McD would have draft a QB in 2010 even if we had the pick in top 5.

Taco John
06-05-2009, 04:18 PM
This thread is a pretty good taste of what this upcoming season is going to be like.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 04:20 PM
This thread is a pretty good taste of what this upcoming season is going to be like.

Every thread:

http://www.gifflix.com/files/671304c34ef4.gif

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:21 PM
He has had all the tools and power to make this a good offseason, but the only people who think we are better seem to be the vocal kool-aid drinkers. I would normally say lets wait and see, but all the BS in the last couple of months make me think this guy is learning on the job and that's not the kind of coach this team needs.

Paladin
06-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Well lets see, first the Cutler mess then the departure of the Goodmans and the bulk of the scouting dept. And then signing half of the free agent running backs on the market then drafting one with the highest pick they had. And none of us have any idea if the draft picks will pan out, but bundling draft picks to move up and get guys that was just wierd. Im not going to call him a genious just yet but you enjoy the kool-aid guys.

1. Quitler created his own mess. Bowlin said trade him. Not McD.

2. Goodman's left because Bowling selected someone else to be the GM, one left, the other followed., Not a problem for McD.

3. One of the issues from last uear was that the RBs the Broncos had were seriously deficient. He got the better ones on the market at a cheap price to be able to check them out. Notice JJ is already gone. You want he should do nothing? Besides, it doesn't hurt a thing to sign them. Whether they stay or not is another question.

4. Pick of Moreno was not bad given the situation that unveiled during the draft. There a re many here who believe Moreno can be a real stud in the O. It is also McD's call as to how he want s to build the team. It is not possible to judge the results until next year.

5. The picks may or nay not pan out which has been the case for every team since.......I dunno........maybe forever?

6. They have been allowing trading up in the draft since.....I dunno....Maybe forever? Some people wanted the team to draft their way. They were not hired to re-build the team. Not possible to evaluate there moves until next year or later. Besides, many people thought those were actually pretty good picks.

See? Other people have different views that are just as - if not more -valid as yours. No Koolaid necessary......

outdoor_miner
06-05-2009, 04:27 PM
And then signing half of the free agent running backs on the market then drafting one with the highest pick they had.

I'm not going to argue with you on anything else, but this drives me crazy. What exactly is wrong with what he did with the running backs? What can possibly be conceived as negative? I can't believe how the media and fans have been harping on this. Did these signings put us over the Salary cap or compromise our future? Did it affect our ability to sign a marquee defensive free agent? Hell no! What the hell "negative" can you possibly come up with that these signing will result in?

We had one guy with any talent when McDaniels arrived... One. Peyton Hillis. So, they signed three guys immediately in free agency to compete. Not one of these signings broke the bank. Given that neither Buckhalter, Jordan, or Arrington can be considered world beaters, it is clearly a "let the best man win situation", where the others will provide depth.

As far as Moreno goes - I can understand if you are arguing that McDaniels should have gone defense with that pick. That's certainly open to debate. But to say that we shouldn't have drafted Moreno because we had the other guys? Moreno is a clear and definite upgrade. Our RB situation was far from "solved" by the other three. Sure - they could provide a decent RBBC along with Hillis, and they were paid accordingly. However, Moreno is a feature back with the potential to be dominant.

I guess I just don't see how any of this is a problem. ESPECIALLY in light of the recent Arrington cut...

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 04:29 PM
umm... all of these things are "shoring up the defense." Just because we didn't sign 8 pro-bowl caliber players doesn't mean he didn't address the defense.

In fact, instead of b****ing, why don't you tell us what you would have done differently this offseason to "shore up the defense?" Keep in mind, this is real life, not Madden.

I'm not "b****ing," I merely stated conventional wisdom. Dawkins is a good sign, but I'm not sold on Goodman, the Rams didn't even make him an offer.Dawkins is great for leadership, our safeties were the most colossal mess of any Broncos unit on a decade (other than the '07 DTs).

Why attack me? I defended McD ... said he'll "shoot up the ladder" once they get on the field. He's an offensive winderkind. He made FO mistaqke and plenty, but it's all downhill from this point on ... it's gonna be fun to watch.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:33 PM
1. Quitler created his own mess. Bowlin said trade him. Not McD.

McDaniels fubared that from the beginning, and im still not sure how he can say he wanted The Player with a straight face.

2. Goodman's left because Bowling selected someone else to be the GM, one left, the other followed., Not a problem for McD.

Im sure he was just doing what the boss wanted and had no input.

3. One of the issues from last uear was that the RBs the Broncos had were seriously deficient. He got the better ones on the market at a cheap price to be able to check them out. Notice JJ is already gone. You want he should do nothing? Besides, it doesn't hurt a thing to sign them. Whether they stay or not is another question.

Ok, so he signed some good backs. Was he just second guessing himself by drafting another one? Or did he just realize he wasted Bowlins money?

4. Pick of Moreno was not bad given the situation that unveiled during the draft. There a re many here who believe Moreno can be a real stud in the O. It is also McD's call as to how he want s to build the team. It is not possible to judge the results until next year.

Not bad if you hadn't already just signed three "good backs".

5. The picks may or nay not pan out which has been the case for every team since.......I dunno........maybe forever?

Yes but just giving away higher valuable picks for guys that might not have been drafted or could have had lower was great huh? How about that first, oh what first?

6. They have been allowing trading up in the draft since.....I dunno....Maybe forever? Some people wanted the team to draft their way. They were not hired to re-build the team. Not possible to evaluate there moves until next year or later. Besides, many people thought those were actually pretty good picks.

See? Other people have different views that are just as - if not more -valid as yours. No Koolaid necessary......

Ok lets try it this way, tell us why you think this team will be better this season. Not just woooo McDaniels yeah!

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:36 PM
I'm not going to argue with you on anything else, but this drives me crazy. What exactly is wrong with what he did with the running backs? What can possibly be conceived as negative? I can't believe how the media and fans have been harping on this. Did these signings put us over the Salary cap or compromise our future? Did it affect our ability to sign a marquee defensive free agent? Hell no! What the hell "negative" can you possibly come up with that these signing will result in?

We had one guy with any talent when McDaniels arrived... One. Peyton Hillis. So, they signed three guys immediately in free agency to compete. Not one of these signings broke the bank. Given that neither Buckhalter, Jordan, or Arrington can be considered world beaters, it is clearly a "let the best man win situation", where the others will provide depth.

As far as Moreno goes - I can understand if you are arguing that McDaniels should have gone defense with that pick. That's certainly open to debate. But to say that we shouldn't have drafted Moreno because we had the other guys? Moreno is a clear and definite upgrade. Our RB situation was far from "solved" by the other three. Sure - they could provide a decent RBBC along with Hillis, and they were paid accordingly. However, Moreno is a feature back with the potential to be dominant.

I guess I just don't see how any of this is a problem. ESPECIALLY in light of the recent Arrington cut...

I see that as not having a plan and simply winging it. Especially in light of the defesive needs this team still has.

outdoor_miner
06-05-2009, 04:50 PM
I see that as not having a plan and simply winging it. Especially in light of the defesive needs this team still has.

You don't think the running back position needed fixing? Earlier in this thread you were complaining that the offense was a great running back away from being completely stacked. So, even you acknowledge that it was a position of need. They initially addressed it by planning for a RBBC and seeing who raised to the top (as has been mentioned before - this did not cost much). Then, they had the opportunity to get the best back in the draft, and they took it. Meanwhile, no financial handcuffs. No mortgaged future. Sounds like a good plan to me. They clearly identified RB as a problem, and then worked hard to address it.

I think they have enough time to make a plan on both sides of the ball, so I find it hard to believe that putting effort into fixing the RB situation took away from what they wanted to do on D.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 04:55 PM
I think you either plan to draft your RB of the future or you sign a few guys to compete. If you have a plan do you really need to do both? As for the D, what position has been markedly improved? Who are the starting D-lineman?

Bob's your Information Minister
06-05-2009, 04:56 PM
Schadenfreude.

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 05:04 PM
Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

DING DING DING!

Tell him what he's won, Johnny!

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 05:09 PM
seems about right considering the Jay stuff ... then the way some think we hosed the draft ...

So yea 32 about does it ...

outdoor_miner
06-05-2009, 05:11 PM
I think you either plan to draft your RB of the future or you sign a few guys to compete. If you have a plan do you really need to do both? As for the D, what position has been markedly improved? Who are the starting D-lineman?

How can you do that when the draft comes way way after free agency? They had no idea who was going to be on the board when they picked... I mean, even if they REALLY wanted Moreno back then, what happens if they ignore RB, and then someone trades up in front of the Broncos and snags him? They had to address the position in Free Agency. And they did it in a way that did not hurt financially. Again - this was well played in my opinion.

I'm not going to argue with you on the D, because I can understand why people would question those moves. I really just objected to the RB stuff. However, I sleep a little easier knowing that we have Sporting News' 7th Best Coordinator calling the shots. :yayaya:

Really - I just have to believe that Nolan has been telling McDaniels exactly what he needs... If Nolan said, "I can not possibly field a competitive team with this garbage we have on the D-Line", I believe that McDaniels and Xanders would have done more. However, Nolan clearly didn't think that what was available on the D-Line in Free Agency and the draft was much better than what he had to work with. The Secondary? Well - clearly he felt differently, as that unit has been completely revamped.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 05:11 PM
I think you either plan to draft your RB of the future or you sign a few guys to compete. If you have a plan do you really need to do both? As for the D, what position has been markedly improved? Who are the starting D-lineman?

Hey Scttrgrrd,
If our team does well this year, are you going to "man up" and say you were wrong?

You have good reasons to be skeptical about our team, but being overly negative just sounds like a whiny bitch after a while. Don't be a whiny bitch.

The fact that many of our defensive players that were cut weren't signed by other teams speaks a lot about McD's judgement. The fact that Chicago fans are now concerned about Cutler's maturity (even coach Dungy) speaks a little about McD's decision.

It's fine for you to have an opinion that our team is terrible, and that we have the worst head coach in the league (which I don't believe), but will you admit it if you are proven wrong by actual facts? Maybe your own dedicated thread with a public apology if we have a winning record after the first 8 games?

Just asking.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 05:13 PM
I think you either plan to draft your RB of the future or you sign a few guys to compete. If you have a plan do you really need to do both? As for the D, what position has been markedly improved? Who are the starting D-lineman?

This is a load of bull****. The draft is about what can best help the team now and in the future. The two defensive guys they would have picked with 12 were gone sothey wanted both good value and a person who could greatly effect the outcome of the game. Perhaps Moreno wasn't plan A (as Raji probably was), but its not like they sat their twiddling their thumbs when BJ was off the board. In Moreno they saw a dynamic runner that could help move the chains and slow the game donw...which will ultimately help the defense. Plus, I believe he's more of a sure thing than Orakpo or anyone else they could have gotten. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Hey Scttrgrrd,
If our team does well this year, are you going to "man up" and say you were wrong?

You have good reasons to be skeptical about our team, but being overly negative just sounds like a whiny b**** after a while. Don't be a whiny b****.

The fact that many of our defensive players that were cut weren't signed by other teams speaks a lot about McD's judgement. The fact that Chicago fans are now concerned about Cutler's maturity (even coach Dungy) speaks a little about McD's decision.

It's fine for you to have an opinion that our team is terrible, and that we have the worst head coach in the league (which I don't believe), but will you admit it if you are proven wrong by actual facts? Maybe your own dedicated thread with a public apology if we have a winning record after the first 8 games?

Just asking.



Who gives a rats @$$ what Tony Dungy says ... I'm sure the Bears don't ...
and I wonder if Tony eats those words if Jay lights it up this year.

Personally think Tony is OVERRATED ... I could have won lots of games as a coach as well coaching the talent he had ... IF ANYTHING Tony underachieved.

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 05:16 PM
Hey Scttrgrrd,
If our team does well this year, are you going to "man up" and say you were wrong?

You have good reasons to be skeptical about our team, but being overly negative just sounds like a whiny b**** after a while. Don't be a whiny b****.

Man you're angry ... he doesn't seem whiny to me, what's wrong with an opinion?

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 05:18 PM
Man you're angry ... he doesn't seem whiny to me, what's wrong with an opinion?

He must be a Liberal ... you know how they get if someone has a opinion that's not the same as theirs ...

Hilarious!

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 05:32 PM
He must be a Liberal ... you know how they get if someone has a opinion that's not the same as theirs ...

Hilarious!

Like all those open minded conservatives?

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Man you're angry ... he doesn't seem whiny to me, what's wrong with an opinion?

Oh, come on.

If someone thinks that every single thing our new head coach does is terrible - even after listening to the players, and watching them being taught at a higher level than the past few years, then he is whining.

When there is not a single positive thing to say, it becomes a whine.

It's fine to express an opinion, even a negative one. I encourage it. But calling everyone else a "kool aid drinker" just sounds a little condescending doesn't it?

This is a community of people expressing our opinions. Express doubts and criticisms, that's fine. But if you can't find a single positive thing about our "new team" then I think you are trying to hard to be negative - ergo whining.

We will have to watch some games before such harsh criticisms can be justified.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 05:39 PM
He must be a Liberal ... you know how they get if someone has a opinion that's not the same as theirs ...

Hilarious!

We're on page 4 and no mention of racial differences yet - is that next?...

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 05:44 PM
We're on page 4 and no mention of racial differences yet - is that next?...

What race are you ??? I'll hate on that one first ...Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

JJJ
06-05-2009, 05:48 PM
You gotta admit no HC in NFL history has come out of the box with this much negative press before the start of minicamp.

Norval might be the only one who took such regular beatings.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 05:56 PM
The left demonizes anyone who dares disagree with them and tries to stamp out and deface them AKA Miss California ....

While the right is just as bad for other reasons.... But the left has cornered the market on bishing and moaning like 12 year olds with skinned knees if you dare disagree ...


Facts are facts .... If one is the old rich white guy party who is stuck in their ways and the past , then the other is the bishy whiny thin skinned Fer's who cry like children if you disagree ....


Being neither I think that is a fair description of both ...

Wow, you don't pay attention to the right wing radio personalities though. I think both sides do their fair share of bitching...i dont think its one more than the other. In fact, anytime a democrat says ANYTHING now, there are 3 right wingers telling them why its wrong...even if the comment is about the sky being blue.

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 06:05 PM
Wow, you don't pay attention to the right wing radio personalities though. I think both sides do their fair share of b****ing...i dont think its one more than the other. In fact, anytime a democrat says ANYTHING now, there are 3 right wingers telling them why its wrong...even if the comment is about the sky being blue.

No actually I pay more attention then most , to both sides , not just the one i'm a sheep to ...and Yes both sides do their fair share bishing .


But one comes off like children ... one comes off like bitter old people .
guess which is which lol ....



And Sonof I don't listen to much right wing radio cause Rush makes me want to punch something ... and Left wing radio makes me want to kill someone as well ... Listen to Air America for a hour and see if you don't feel the urge to kill ...


But I have enough hate to go around for both sides so it's all good ...

In a perfect world the earth would open up and swallow Rush and Olbermann.

BroncoInSkinland
06-05-2009, 06:07 PM
Oh, come on.

If someone thinks that every single thing our new head coach does is terrible - even after listening to the players, and watching them being taught at a higher level than the past few years, then he is whining. Opinion expressed as fact by redirecting with an immediate attack on the opposing poster. Calling people names is not an effective argument.

When there is not a single positive thing to say, it becomes a whine.

It's fine to express an opinion, even a negative one. I encourage it. But calling everyone else a "kool aid drinker" just sounds a little condescending doesn't it? Is it that much worse than calling everyone a whiner?

This is a community of people expressing our opinions. Express doubts and criticisms, that's fine. But if you can't find a single positive thing about our "new team" then I think you are trying to hard to be negative - ergo whining. Apparently that is not fine, anyone who is critical of McDaniels is immediately shouted down as a negative nelly, or a whiner, or told to go root for another team. It is not the opposing sides job to make your argument for you. If you have a valid point bring it up, do it, this is how discussion and debate occurs.

We will have to watch some games before such harsh criticisms can be justified. Proven yes, justified no. The potential for a disastrous season is there even if you don't want to acknowledge it. There are many commentators, analysts and experts in the field expressing those same doubts. This alone justifies the concerns, the season will prove which side of the debate is correct.

Hm, I see one guy bringing up an issue regarding our off season acquisitions, and another guy who says nothing but four paragraphs about people whining. Pot, kettle. The one football take is that the players are being taught at a higher level than the past few years. Documentation please?

I may not be as negative as some around here, I agree that McDaniels should have been given an incomplete, and I also think that if he was to be fairly graded he probably should have come ahead of a few other coaches based simply off his on-field track record as OC at NE. I also fully understand the concerns of those that are more negative than I am, and can see why they would think as they do. I don't agree with them, but I think my reserved and limited optimism is more likely to sway their opinion than your calling them names.

Look, Whiner, Bear Fan, Kool-aid drinker, Blind Homer, none of these names are going to forward a discussion, particularly when you use them almost every other post. I understand someone else may call you a homer first, that doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. Anyone left on this board actually posting about Denver football is a homer, trust me on this. If we weren't we could find many better things to do in late spring and early summer than sitting on a message board spewing forth things we didn't really care about. Move past the fact that others don't agree with you and show them why they should, otherwise we are just spinning our tires.

Oh and incidentally I would have McDaniels at about 25ish. He's made some good moves for a new kid, got unlucky with the Cutler situation, but appears to have the team at least partially motivated before camp even starts. He's got strong support from the owner of the team, even after a few controversial moves, and has veterans in place to help him in every aspect from Nolan to Dawkins. Not bad, but not good enough to pass up most established coaches.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 06:14 PM
No actually I pay more attention then most , to both sides , not just the one i'm a sheep to ...and Yes both sides do their fair share bishing .


But one comes off like children ... one comes off like bitter old people .
guess which is which lol ....



And Sonof I don't listen to much right wing radio cause Rush makes me want to punch something ... and Left wing radio makes me want to kill someone as well ... Listen to Air America for a hour and see if you don't feel the urge to kill ...



But I have enough hate to go around for both sides so it's all good ...

In a perfect world the earth would open up and swallow Rush and Olbermann.

Rush is much worse than Olbermann...im sorry. First off, Olbermann has zero pull in the party, rush and his hate mongering is the voice of the right. And the left comes off as children? The left is the only one who speaks of policy. The right just tells us why its wrong with no solution. They just want to be heard...you know, like children.

I have lots of problems with my own party, but still...

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 06:26 PM
Rush is much worse than Olbermann...im sorry. First off, Olbermann has zero pull in the party, rush and his hate mongering is the voice of the right. And the left comes off as children? The left is the only one who speaks of policy. The right just tells us why its wrong with no solution. They just want to be heard...you know, like children.

I have lots of problems with my own party, but still...



There is a reason why as people age A LOT switch for Left to Right ...


Defending either party is insanity . Thinking one is better then the other is insanity ... Thinking either truly give a **** about their members is insanity.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 06:30 PM
Hey Scttrgrrd,
If our team does well this year, are you going to "man up" and say you were wrong?

I will be happy to be wrong, I want the Broncos to win. End of story.

You have good reasons to be skeptical about our team, but being overly negative just sounds like a whiny b**** after a while. Don't be a whiny b****.

And you sound like bob with "we will be the best team ever oh my god"! crap. If it walks like a duck... you get the point.

The fact that many of our defensive players that were cut weren't signed by other teams speaks a lot about McD's judgement. The fact that Chicago fans are now concerned about Cutler's maturity (even coach Dungy) speaks a little about McD's decision.

I can see the point here on defense, but we replaced them with old journeymen and guys who never cracked the starting lineup.

As far as Cutler goes the head coach is supposed to know how to handle players and the ego's. Wow, that went well didn't it. Talk about failing upward.

It's fine for you to have an opinion that our team is terrible, and that we have the worst head coach in the league (which I don't believe), but will you admit it if you are proven wrong by actual facts? Maybe your own dedicated thread with a public apology if we have a winning record after the first 8 games?

If they have a winning record at the end of the year I will be happy to say he did better that expected. But who is the QB next year and many other questions need to be answered as well.






See above.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-05-2009, 06:40 PM
There is a reason why as people age A LOT switch for Left to Right ...


Defending either party is insanity . Thinking one is better then the other is insanity ... Thinking either truly give a **** about their members is insanity.

who is switching from left to right? Ummmm....have you noticed we have a left leaning pres and a left leaning congress?

I subscribe to an ideology that the democrats lean closer to. Trust me, if i lived someone because i loved their government, id move to sweden. (ya know, thats actually not a bad idea:)

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 07:19 PM
who is switching from left to right? Ummmm....have you noticed we have a left leaning pres and a left leaning congress?

I subscribe to an ideology that the democrats lean closer to. Trust me, if i lived someone because i loved their government, id move to sweden. (ya know, thats actually not a bad idea:)

It's a fact that is as old as time man ... AS people age LOTS go from left to right ... just how it is ... Has nothing to do with left leaning press or congress it's human nature ... Go read a little ...

BroncoBuff
06-05-2009, 07:29 PM
Rush is much worse than Olbermann...im sorry.
I am a 22-year long HUGE fan of Olbermann ... but I gotta say Keith is right there with Rush. One reason is his wild commentaries which can go over the line, another is when he criticizes Cheney, he says "Dick" with the emphasis on "dick." That's some real bush league stuff :nono:

They are both spectacularly, massively, galactically talented broadcasters though.

footstepsfrom#27
06-05-2009, 07:32 PM
It's a fact that is as old as time man ... AS people age LOTS go from left to right ... just how it is ... Has nothing to do with left leaning press or congress it's human nature ... Go read a little ...
Funny...I've been going the other direction.

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 07:34 PM
I am a 22-year long HUGE fan of Olbermann ... but I gotta say he's right there with Rush. When he criticizes CHeney, he says "Dick," with the emphasis on "dick," I'm sure you get that. Serious bush league stuff .....

They are both spectacularly, massively talented broadcasters though.


Talented entertainers . Both huge hypocrites ....


Like Keith the other night did a whole segment on Berny Goldberg and Bill O $hitting all over them for Berny's book of 100 people destroying America ...
They went on and on about the RIGHT making list of people they disagree with and people using that list as a hit list ....

AND THEN HE FOLLOWS THAT SEGMENT demonizing LIST with Keith's nightly segment CALLED worst person in the world .... That happens to be a LIST ...
Hypocrite much ... So If I kill one of the people he list in that I guess I can blame it on Queef Olbermann by his mentality ...

TDmvp
06-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Funny...I've been going the other direction.


I have been retreating from both ... But on average people do go from left to right as they age ... Just how it is . A lot of 60s and 70s dems became 80s repugs ... Studies done just say it's typical not just in political stuff ...

Young hippies become old tight a$$es ... it's just how it goes.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 07:52 PM
See above.

I saw above. Not impressed nor enlightened.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 08:01 PM
I saw above. Not impressed nor enlightened.

I see nothing from you, just that you think we are going to be great but can't tell anyone why. Oh, and a whole lot of complaining about "whiners". You so far resemble that remark.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 08:07 PM
Hm, I see one guy bringing up an issue regarding our off season acquisitions, and another guy who says nothing but four paragraphs about people whining. Pot, kettle. 1. The one football take is that the players are being taught at a higher level than the past few years. Documentation please?

I may not be as negative as some around here, 2. I agree that McDaniels should have been given an incomplete, and I also think that if he was to be fairly graded he probably should have come ahead of a few other coaches based simply off his on-field track record as OC at NE. I also fully understand the concerns of those that are more negative than I am, and can see why they would think as they do. I don't agree with them, but I think my reserved and limited optimism is more likely to sway their opinion than your calling them names.

3. Look, Whiner, Bear Fan, Kool-aid drinker, Blind Homer, none of these names are going to forward a discussion, particularly when you use them almost every other post. I understand someone else may call you a homer first, that doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. Anyone left on this board actually posting about Denver football is a homer, trust me on this. If we weren't we could find many better things to do in late spring and early summer than sitting on a message board spewing forth things we didn't really care about. 4. Move past the fact that others don't agree with you and show them why they should, otherwise we are just spinning our tires.

5. Oh and incidentally I would have McDaniels at about 25ish. He's made some good moves for a new kid, got unlucky with the Cutler situation, but appears to have the team at least partially motivated before camp even starts. He's got strong support from the owner of the team, even after a few controversial moves, and has veterans in place to help him in every aspect from Nolan to Dawkins. Not bad, but not good enough to pass up most established coaches.

1. My opinion from watching the videos from the camps so far. It's my opinion, time will tell. the players (who have played for other professional organizations) are talking about how much they are presently learning. And, I watch the level of detail McD is teaching (the Qb's so far).

2. I couldn't agree more. By saying "incomplete" you give the possibility for positive or negative changes, because nothing has yet to be proven on the field.

3. I don't understand if you are saying that I call people names every other post, or that is a "you" in general?
Also, when people complain all the time they are whiners. I didn't mean to crush anyone's ego or stop any constructive discussion. When people complain all the time, they are whiners. You can call someone a pessimist, but whiner is a synonym. Semantics.

4. People have been presenting strong arguments in this very thread (not to mention the past few months of threads). No chance you are spinning your tires as well?

5. I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion. I don't believe McD is the best coach in the league by a longshot. I just believe he has done more to improve this team than people recognize. However, we will have to wait for the season until we know for sure.

In the meantime, I like being a fan because I am excited about the possibilities. Those possibilities are absolutely out of my control. So, i'm here to enjoy being a fan, not constantly complain. That's my point.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 08:11 PM
I see nothing from you, just that you think we are going to be great but can't tell anyone why. Oh, and a whole lot of complaining about "whiners". You so far resemble that remark.

I'll mark this post for game 8.

I will apologize for offending you if I did, but maybe you could admit you are being overly negative without proof the same way others might be positive without actual game proof.

It's just that positive people are much more fun to hang around...

cutthemdown
06-05-2009, 08:14 PM
sporting news not anymore reputable then profootball talk. You really have to look at the background of the people writing this garbage.

Mcdaniels is going to be a great coach, he already is.

Hamrob
06-05-2009, 08:15 PM
Where would Shanny of ranked?

:-) Doesn't matter. These are lame rankings. I think we wil go 10-6 or better this year....and Micky-D will be ranked in the top 10 by idiots who produced these stupid rankings.

cutthemdown
06-05-2009, 08:17 PM
He hasn't coached a single game...who can he be ranked ahead of?

I'm fine with the ranking he's brand new.

He's a good coach you can tell this kid knows football like a frat boy knows a beer keg.

Hopefully he does well early, gets some power to stay in Denver, and we can build a new era with a new young coach.

I'm optimistic for some reason when last 3 yrs I haven't been. Just too much of the same Shanny theory of using small fast players on defense.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 08:27 PM
I see nothing from you, just that you think we are going to be great but can't tell anyone why. Oh, and a whole lot of complaining about "whiners". You so far resemble that remark.

Why are we a better team. In my opinion.

1. We will have better decision making at Qb - more extended drives instead of forced passes. Check downs help the team.
2. We drafted a top tier running back that could potentially be the next LT in 2-3 years. Especially with the quality of our O-line.
3. We will start the year with more talent at RB, which should help us extend drives, control the clock, and score more points.
4. Our receiving corps got better (if Marshall is healthy). Royal has a year to grow, Gaffney should certainly be better than Darrell Jackson, and we might have a healthier Stokely this year.
5. We essentially had two rookies on the O-line last year. They have had a year to learn, plus we added more depth for the future. Kory Lichtenstiger was our #2 for both Guard spots, and Center and Polumbus was our backup for both Tackle spots - that's dangerously thin on the O-line.
6. The players we "let go" on defense took a long time to land on other teams (it at all). That means they were horrible players, and dead weight. Getting rid of dead weight for motivated young players is a plus.
7. I think we have a lot of quality depth at LB. Also, we have gotten a lot bigger at LB. When we start the season, DJ might be our lightest LB at 240.
8. I think the D-line got better by just adding Nunnely. No kidding. I think our D-line was coached horribly the last couple years. I think Nunnely will have these guys ready to rock in August.
9. We got tremendously better (and deeper) at Safety. How many third downs have we given away the past couple years at the Safety position. Actually, they were always "out of position." It was flat out embarrasing, and I think the Safeties actually played worse than our d-line. If we stop two third downs per game with imporved Safety play, it could be huge for getting our defense off the field.
10. We got better at corner. I think Bly was a solid player, but he also got exposed and individually got us beat deep too often. Also, Champ was hurt, which hurt us greatly. Not only do we have some good physical corners, but we drafted some depth (I think Smith will turn out to be a great player).
11. Getting rid of Slowik improved our defense. His schemes were horrible, and he never ever changed them. If we were getting killed in the first half, he couldn't adjust a thing for the second half. Maybe it was his schemes, or it was the wrong gameplan for the players we had, but the proof is in the pudding.

I may be missing a few things, but that's a start.

footstepsfrom#27
06-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Why are we a better team. In my opinion.

1. We will have better decision making at Qb - more extended drives instead of forced passes. Check downs help the team.
2. We drafted a top tier running back that could potentially be the next LT in 2-3 years. Especially with the quality of our O-line.
3. We will start the year with more talent at RB, which should help us extend drives, control the clock, and score more points.
4. Our receiving corps got better (if Marshall is healthy). Royal has a year to grow, Gaffney should certainly be better than Darrell Jackson, and we might have a healthier Stokely this year.
5. We essentially had two rookies on the O-line last year. They have had a year to learn, plus we added more depth for the future. Kory Lichtenstiger was our #2 for both Guard spots, and Center and Polumbus was our backup for both Tackle spots - that's dangerously thin on the O-line.
6. The players we "let go" on defense took a long time to land on other teams (it at all). That means they were horrible players, and dead weight. Getting rid of dead weight for motivated young players is a plus.
7. I think we have a lot of quality depth at LB. Also, we have gotten a lot bigger at LB. When we start the season, DJ might be our lightest LB at 240.
8. I think the D-line got better by just adding Nunnely. No kidding. I think our D-line was coached horribly the last couple years. I think Nunnely will have these guys ready to rock in August.
9. We got tremendously better (and deeper) at Safety. How many third downs have we given away the past couple years at the Safety position. Actually, they were always "out of position." It was flat out embarrasing, and I think the Safeties actually played worse than our d-line. If we stop two third downs per game with imporved Safety play, it could be huge for getting our defense off the field.
10. We got better at corner. I think Bly was a solid player, but he also got exposed and individually got us beat deep too often. Also, Champ was hurt, which hurt us greatly. Not only do we have some good physical corners, but we drafted some depth (I think Smith will turn out to be a great player).
11. Getting rid of Slowik improved our defense. His schemes were horrible, and he never ever changed them. If we were getting killed in the first half, he couldn't adjust a thing for the second half. Maybe it was his schemes, or it was the wrong gameplan for the players we had, but the proof is in the pudding.

I may be missing a few things, but that's a start.
So basically what you're saying is that we're better at every single position plus the coaching staff. We were 8-8 last year so I guess we'll finish about 14-2 maybe. ::)

lostknight
06-05-2009, 08:43 PM
Bottom line is that McDaniels is either the greatest fool since creation, or a top 5 coach. On Paper we are not clearly a better team then we were at the end of the season.

For every good decision (Dawkins, Moreno) McDaniels has made, he has made a offsetting idiotic decision (Arrington). And no, he does not get let off the hook because a player situation escalated that he could not control. He was so desperate to establish his own control, he didn't realize that he could completly screw with and loose the "reason" he came to Dener in the first place.

The jury is still out. There is a good chance that Cassel will be available next year, which means that McDaniel's gambit may yet pay off and get him exactly what he wanted in the first place. One advantage of how the front office and McDaniels have butchered the offseason is that our expectations are very low, and McDaniels might just survive if the season is as bad as the pessimists think it will.

It strikes me that the biggest problem with the current front office is not the first move - drafting Ayers and Moreno were great choices. It's in the second round, when you give away first round picks and grab TE's that make no sense.

There is a aweful lot of gambling. McDaniels has gone all in, mortgaging the future. If he right, we win now. If he is wrong at worst we could be the Detroit Lions of the next decade, or perhaps the Pre-Cutler Chicago teams.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 08:52 PM
I'll mark this post for game 8.

I will apologize for offending you if I did, but maybe you could admit you are being overly negative without proof the same way others might be positive without actual game proof.

It's just that positive people are much more fun to hang around...

Well you are going to have to do alot better than that to offend me, and I really don't think it's being negative. I see it as looking at what you have and calling it straight. I want to see a reason to be positive. Don't get me wrong, I want this team to win the superbowl every year. But so far this coach isn't really impressing anyone that's not on this board. I'd like to believe, but I think he's a good coordinator and may someday be a great coach but I don't want him learning and making his mistakes here and moving on to his greatness ala Belicheck.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 09:10 PM
I still want to know what he has done to deserve a higher ranking or anything but scepticism.

the coaching staff he surrounded himself with is reason to be optimistic, the veteran leadership he brought in is great, dumping the garbage players and coaches the Shanahan wasn't going to was a great thing, taking over the team completely and making sure everyone on the team knows that he is in charge and that NO ONE, not even a pro bowl QB is above the team is bringing in a toughness that has been missing in Denver for years, bringing in high character good football players is good.

this offseason has actually been good and is a step in the right direction to getting this team amongst the elite again.

and with the Cutler situation, he only had us at 16th in scoring so that can be reproduced or more than likely surpassed by Orton, so we aren't losing that much. it isn't like the guy was undefeated and had perfect games as a QB. he was a talented young QB with too much ego for not enough accomplishment. his contributions will be matched.

Punisher
06-05-2009, 09:18 PM
32. Josh McDaniels, Broncos. No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot.
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556480

He's really making an impression on the media and fans...

KILL THE NONBELIEVER!!!!!!!!
http://internethut.com/coolest/children_corn_isaac.jpg

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 09:20 PM
He has had all the tools and power to make this a good offseason, but the only people who think we are better seem to be the vocal kool-aid drinkers. I would normally say lets wait and see, but all the BS in the last couple of months make me think this guy is learning on the job and that's not the kind of coach this team needs.

how did he make the team worse?

people bitch about the Cutler situation when it was Cutler's fault he is in Chicago right now. also no one mentions that he had a losing record in Denver. he had too much of an ego for not enough accomplishments on the field, also for everyone claiming we are doomed without him, no one seems to recall we were 16th in points scored last season, and he played like **** the final 3 games of the season when 1 win would have gotten us into the playoffs and Mike and Jay would still be here, but so would Slowik.


i am far from a McDaniels supporter, but he has this team in a far better position to succeed than it has been in a long time. he assembled a really good staff around him, he dumped the garbage on the roster that Mike wasn't going to get rid of, Slowik is gone.

he brought in experienced vocal and emotional leaders for the defense

finally addressed the need at RB that Mike had become too egotistical in his thinking that anyone can succeed running in Denver that he never tried to get real talent behind the line.

he brought in high character hard working guys, he took control of the team.

everyone now knows that no one is above the team.

he has instilled a toughness in the players by showing them he will dump you on a new team for picks if you are going to be a bitch.

this team is better right now than it has been since 2005.

TonyR
06-05-2009, 09:25 PM
For every good decision (Dawkins, Moreno) McDaniels has made, he has made a offsetting idiotic decision (Arrington).

What exactly was "idiotic" about the Arrington "decision"?

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 09:31 PM
And then signing half of the free agent running backs on the market then drafting one with the highest pick they had.

why are you so down on him investing in a very important part of the team?

do you not remember last season when we ended the year with a guy who was selling phones in a mall in Denver because we lost 7 to IR? or that the same thing happened in NE where they were down to their 4th or 5th string RB because of injury.

he saw weakness on the offense in the running game and he got 3 guys he felt could upgrade the position without breaking the bank on any of them and would be able to run a RBBC with them until he could upgrade to his feature back eventually

with the Moreno pick, you and other bitchers make it sound like he was our number 1 priority at number 12 in this draft. none of you seem to remember that the guys the team was targeting with that pick were already gone, and they went into a backup plan of getting the next best available player that was highly ranked on their board who could help the team and it was Moreno.

also, no one who hates the RB singings or drafting seems to realize this team is going to be a running team, and investment in the position was a very smart move, in that it makes the positon and team better. you are also not realizing without investing in the position we were going into this year with Selvin Young, Hall, Torain and Hillis as the guys we would be banking on to carry the load. and all of them are coming off of season ending injuries, and only 1 is worth a damn.

outdoor_miner
06-05-2009, 09:37 PM
What exactly was "idiotic" about the Arrington "decision"?

Seriously. What is the deal with the hate on the running back situation. It cost $150K to sign a back they hoped would heal in time for OTAs. $150K! That is a friggin drop in the bucket in this league. It is nothing. It was a gamble that they could get a guy they liked, but they smartly protected themselves. How is this such a transgression???

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 09:58 PM
I see that as not having a plan and simply winging it. Especially in light of the defesive needs this team still has.

not having a plan, are you retarded. i don't care who the coach is, no one is going to go into FA and come away with as many as 9 new upper echelon starters for a bad defense. it takes a couple of years to rebuild a defense. outside of Champ and DJ, this entire defense needed to be rebuilt. i don't care if you are Belichick, or McDaniels, you are not going to come away with that many new starters on defense in a single offseason

with the RBs he brought in 3 guys to compete with the 1 guy with talent still on the roster(Hillis) and brought them in on cheap contracts on a look and see basis, which is obvious since he has already cut Arrington.

with the draft, reaching for players because they play positions of need is the reason our defense was terrible, and the reason why we have been in bad situations hoping for guys like Moss, Crowder, Eason, McNeil, Dorsett Davis, Pope, and Toviessi to succeed, when it turns out they suck and are just making the team worse

and those are just bad picks on the DL since the year 2000, would look a lot worse if i listed all the bad picks since 2000 that we drafted simply because they played positions of need.

cmhargrove
06-05-2009, 10:39 PM
So basically what you're saying is that we're better at every single position plus the coaching staff. We were 8-8 last year so I guess we'll finish about 14-2 maybe. ::)

Nope, we should still be 8-8, but I don't think lower tier teams like Detroit and Oakland will give us such a "beat down" like in the past couple seasons.

I mean getting a beat down from the woeful Raiders 31-10 at Invesco? I think we still might lose our share of those games, but I don't think the team will be so rudderless.

More depth, more discipline, more fire. No matter how much I loved Shanahan, i'll admit that this organization needed new leaders.

We should still be 8-8 with all our changes this offseason, but I think that we will avoid the massive swings back and forth (barring major injuries). But - I wouldn't be too surprised to see a record as good as 10-6 if the team gets an early win streak (3 of the first 4).

Mediator12
06-05-2009, 11:26 PM
No...it's your logic that's skewed.

Generally experience is consdidered a plus in the coaching ranks, not a neutral or a negative, and since he has none at all as a head coach at any level...yeah, ranking him last is justified. I already stated he shouldn't be ranked, so I'm not sure why you're repeating that. I merely said that if you HAD to rank him, he obviously can't be ranked ahead of anyone who has actualy been a head coach in the NFL.

Second...his GM abilities will obviously impact his ability to win as a head coach, so that argument is just silly.

I am sorry to inform you that reality just bit you on the ass:

First time, first year head coaches that made the playoffs last year= 3 out of 5.

First time, Second year Head coaches who made the playoffs = 4.

So, 7 of 12 Head coaches were rookies or second year coaches. Both Coaches in the superbowl were First time, Second year HC's BTW.

So, you might want to rethink your thesis there partner.

Also, Raheem Morris has never been an NFL coordinator so if your going by experience in the NFL he would have to be ahead of him.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2009, 11:33 PM
Nope, we should still be 8-8, but I don't think lower tier teams like Detroit and Oakland will give us such a "beat down" like in the past couple seasons.

I mean getting a beat down from the woeful Raiders 31-10 at Invesco? I think we still might lose our share of those games, but I don't think the team will be so rudderless.

More depth, more discipline, more fire. No matter how much I loved Shanahan, i'll admit that this organization needed new leaders.

We should still be 8-8 with all our changes this offseason, but I think that we will avoid the massive swings back and forth (barring major injuries). But - I wouldn't be too surprised to see a record as good as 10-6 if the team gets an early win streak (3 of the first 4).

see i am thinking along the same lines as you. i think this team could surprise and go 10-6 or 11-5 but probably will be around 8-8 again, but instead of being the heartless no desire team of the last few years, this is going to be a young fiery team that fans and the NFL will look at and realize this is a team that is going to come together quickly and isn't going to roll over for anyone that is a few players and some experience away from being an elite team.

we have been stagnant the last few seasons, but now we are moving forward in a new and correct direction.

DBroncos4life
06-05-2009, 11:36 PM
Not everyone is high on our offseason moves people, in fact they don't really think they are good at all.

scttgrd
06-05-2009, 11:37 PM
How many head coaches jettisoned the starting QB then brought in guys that wouldn't start for the local AFL team?

Don't tell us why we are wrong, give us a reason why you are right. If you are going to be so vocal don't just crap on our arguement tell us why this guy will be good when he looks like the mommas boy.

Mediator12
06-05-2009, 11:51 PM
How many head coaches jettisoned the starting QB then brought in guys that wouldn't start for the local AFL team?

Don't tell us why we are wrong, give us a reason why you are right. If you are going to be so vocal don't just crap on our arguement tell us why this guy will be good when he looks like the mommas boy.

Well for one, NE transitioned from being a SB team that relied HEAVILY on defensive sucess under Bill Belichick to the single greatest scoring offense in history under Mcdaniels. That team went 16-0 and lost a SB on one of the biggest fluke catches since the Immaculate reception. Then, when the franchise QB went down for the high scoring offense this year, the offense and team still performed much better than average and SCORED better than DEN's supposed High Octane Offense.

Oh yeah, that's right NE scored 2.5 points more a game with their backup QB who had not played a meaningful game since high school. How did DEN do again in Detroit when Ramsey had to play 2 years ago?

So, the guy is certainly qualified as an X's and O's guy. And, he has a history of improving offenses and developing QB's. He is a bright young mind with a solid idea of what he wants to make this team. He made tough decisions that are not Politically correct with the fans on this board.

All that being said, he still has not put a product on the field with his stamp yet. We will all know more in a few months if he can translate that OC ability as a HC. Until then, its all speculation and innuendo.

scttgrd
06-06-2009, 12:08 AM
And that coach managed how many points in that superbowl? Problem is he got worked when facing a real defese that had seen his game and as far as I know he has no rings that he was a part of.

Maybe a good coordinator but he has shown nothing to believe he will make this a winning team again. Who will be the starting QB this year, or next? Tell us what he has done to make this team a contender?

TDmvp
06-06-2009, 12:09 AM
The left demonizes anyone who dares disagree with them and tries to stamp out and deface them AKA Miss California ....

While the right is just as bad for other reasons.... But the left has cornered the market on bishing and moaning like 12 year olds with skinned knees if you dare disagree ...


Facts are facts .... If one is the old rich white guy party who is stuck in their ways and the past , then the other is the bishy whiny thin skinned Fer's who cry like children if you disagree ....


Being neither I think that is a fair description of both ...


SportingNews.com Ranks... 06-06-2009 01:42 AM Pseudofool : Don't generalize the left. Really Miss California is your example? Pathetic.



Poor little Lefty, cause I said something He disagreed with he's going to Neg Rep me ... How Ironic considering ...

Thanks for making my point for me Pseudodouche you petulant child...

Hulamau
06-06-2009, 12:26 AM
The point being is if there was a consistant back in the backfield and a D-line that could generate even a hint of pressure the secondary would not have looked so bad. It's hard to score inside the 20 when everyone knows to put it in the end zone you are going to have to pass it. I still don't see how either of those problems have been fixed. Yeah we have some new guys, but are they really that much better than the guys they replaced? As for Dawkins, when was the last time Philly let a guy go and he was productive elsewhere?

Yes they ARE that much better. Dawkins and Renaldo Hill bring leadership to the entire defense we lacked last year and as players make McCree and 'whats his face' look like high school players ... much like they played like year. Second year from Barrett, and McBath plus Bruton make for a solid a safety core as we've had in a long time.

Andre Goodman over Bly simply in consistency and a more solid tackler in run support. A heatlhy Champ on the field over an injured Champ on the bench hands down. . ALfonso as Nickel will be a clear upgrade over 'give em an 8 yard cushion' Paymah, and even Jack William's has another year under his belt and will no doubt be improved.

Net result a Major improvement in the entire secondary.


At LB, A healthy DJ paired with Andra Davis is a upgrade over 'Mr. Inconsistent' 'watch me whiff a tackle for a 60 yard gain' Nate Webster. Add with a second year of experience and a full off season conditioning for Woodyard and Larsen, they will be a big plus as depth and as possible starters. The OLB rotation of Doom, Moss, Reid and Ayers will produce a more solid pass rush than last years fiasco.. Even just considering the scheme and improved coaching.

The D line is still a work in progress with some question marks but will NOT be as suck ass as the last two years. Noland and Nunnelly alone guarantee that, just as with last years cast on the D-line with these coaches wouldn't have put out such an epic fail as Slowik did.

In short, a solid improvement on D with more room to go before we are a highly competitive D again that can win gains on its own, but definitely a better unit and scheme than the last couple years.

And Moreno paired with a healthy second year Hillis is a sick backfield on any team! Buckhalter, Jordan and Torain (if his knee makes it) provide a much more solid RB corp than we've had in a long time.

Looking in the rear view mirror while driving is dangerous.

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 12:30 AM
And that coach managed how many points in that superbowl? Problem is he got worked when facing a real defese that had seen his game and as far as I know he has no rings that he was a part of.

Maybe a good coordinator but he has shown nothing to believe he will make this a winning team again. Who will be the starting QB this year, or next? Tell us what he has done to make this team a contender?

He has 3 rings, do your research before commenting.

If your thing is how many points did they score in the SB, then your arguing a single game with anything goes against the best pass rush in the NFL. Not a very convincing counter argument. Also, coaches do not score points, teams execute to score points. That day, NE did not execute very well at all.

See above post about the recent success of rookie head coaches turning teams around. 7 of 12 Playoff teams were from first time Head coaches in their first or second years. Did you even know WHO John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, or Mike Smith were before last year? How about Ken Whisenhunt or Mike Tomlin 2 years ago? Did you know which side of the ball they came from?

Also, the only thing that matters is how this teams actually plays on Sundays. So, after I see tham play on that first Sunday i'll let you know a first impression. Until then, its all speculation.

scttgrd
06-06-2009, 12:35 AM
You are wearing the orange colored glasses, I guess you were screaming to bring in the wonderfull players on the roster now. Im sure you thought Orton was the answer 6 months ago. What will you do when Simms wins the job? Move the goalposts again?

TDmvp
06-06-2009, 12:37 AM
You are wearing the orange colored glasses, I guess you were screaming to bring in the wonderfull players on the roster now. Im sure you thought Orton was the answer 6 months ago. What will you do when Simms wins the job? Move the goalposts again?



God , If Simms wins the job we are SOOooooooooo Hosed ....

scttgrd
06-06-2009, 12:40 AM
Sad thing is he could, hell Orton couldn't get Griese out of the lineup in Chicago. And Simms was behind Griese in Tampa. That's not a ringing endorsement by any stretch. Sad days ahead.

Popps
06-06-2009, 12:51 AM
How many head coaches jettisoned the starting QB then brought in guys that wouldn't start for the local AFL team?
.


Orton's record as a starter: 22-11 (.667)

Simms record as a starter: 7-8 (.466)

Cutler's record as a starter: 17-20 (.459)


****, you're right... we shouldn't have traded Cutler. We could have kept him around to fight for the #3 QB spot. Maybe we could have tucked him away on the practice squad.

Popps
06-06-2009, 12:55 AM
http://notqualifiedtocomment.com/wp-content/uploads/jay-greg.jpg

... I only phrew 7 more toushdooowns than innersephions lass year and dey schtill put me in duh phro bowl....... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.... BUUUUURP....

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 12:56 AM
You are wearing the orange colored glasses, I guess you were screaming to bring in the wonderfull players on the roster now. Im sure you thought Orton was the answer 6 months ago. What will you do when Simms wins the job? Move the goalposts again?

Um, no. Seriously this is what you are bringing to the table?

1. I hate the DL, they are the worst unit in the NFL IMHO.

2. The front seven is completely unimpressive, and that INCLUDES DJ williams playing inside LB in any 3-4 front.

3. Orton and Simms are serviceable QB's in the spread. If you had ever seen Orton play at Purdue you would know his skillset is much more suited to playing that style than the pathetic Bears offense was no WR's. Simms had a major injury that almost ended his career and got in John Gruden's dog house in TB. However, he is an upgrade from Ramsey.

4. DEN still has some players on offense, and the most important unit, the OL, is a top 5 unit for the first time in years. So, while the offense will not have Cutler I still think they will score MORE points per game than they did last year with him.

5. I do not buy the transition to the 3-4 without a starting level NT. Fields might be it, but that would be a major coup if Nolan can make that work.

6. The Defensive talent is lacking, but it was pretty poor in 2006 too when Coyer had them playing better than the sum of their parts instead of the crap Bates and Slowik put out there the last 2 years. 2006 the defense won more games for DEN than Plummer or Cutler did. Nolan has also assembled the best defensive staff DEN has had in a decade IMHO.

7. McDaniels is guilty of nothing except breaking peoples expectations at this point. However, perception is pretty powerful when there is no product on the field to refute that. I think he remains a capable HC until proven otherwise.

If that means I am drinking the cool aid to you, its just your perception of my much more complicated viewpoint. It's a gross oversimplification of the state of the team that can not be defined by one single grouping of how I feel about the new coach at this point. This is just a small sampling of non-cool aid items.

TheReverend
06-06-2009, 12:57 AM
He has 3 rings, do your research before commenting.

To be fair, 2 are as an assistant to the DB coach... The third is legitimately earned, imo, as a QB coach in 2004.

Popps
06-06-2009, 12:58 AM
Um, no. Seriously this is what you are bringing to the table?

1. I hate the DL, they are the worst unit in the NFL IMHO.

2. The front seven is completely unimpressive, and that INCLUDES DJ williams playing inside LB in any 3-4 front.

3. Orton and Simms are serviceable QB's in the spread. If you had ever seen Orton play at Purdue you would know his skillset is much more suited to playing that style than the pathetic Bears offense was no WR's. Simms had a major injury that almost ended his career and got in John Gruden's dog house in TB. However, he is an upgrade from Ramsey.

4. DEN still has some players on offense, and the most important unit, the OL, is a top 5 unit for the first time in years. So, while the offense will not have Cutler I still think they will score MORE points per game than they did last year with him.

5. I do not buy the transition to the 3-4 without a starting level NT. Fields might be it, but that would be a major coup if Nolan can make that work.

6. The Defensive talent is lacking, but it was pretty poor in 2006 too when Coyer had them playing better than the sum of their parts instead of the crap Bates and Slowik put out there the last 2 years. 2006 the defense won more games for DEN than Plummer or Cutler did. Nolan has also assembled the best defensive staff DEN has had in a decade IMHO.

7. McDaniels is guilty of nothing except breaking peoples expectations at this point. However, perception is pretty powerful when there is no product on the field to refute that. I think he remains a capable HC until proven otherwise.

If that means I am drinking the cool aid to you, its just your perception of my much more complicated viewpoint. It's a gross oversimplification of the state of the team that can not be defined by one single grouping of how I feel about the new coach at this point. This is just a small sampling of non-cool aid items.

Nice to have you posting more, Mediator. Always good reading.

Popps
06-06-2009, 12:59 AM
6. The Defensive talent is lacking, but it was pretty poor in 2006 too when Coyer had them playing better than the sum of their parts instead of the crap Bates and Slowik put out there the last 2 years. 2006 the defense won more games for DEN than Plummer or Cutler did. Nolan has also assembled the best defensive staff DEN has had in a decade IMHO.


Wow, pretty strong statement. Very interesting.

You've been outspoken about position coaching for some time now, so this is very noteworthy.

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 01:00 AM
To be fair, 2 are as an assistant to the DB coach... The third is legitimately earned, imo, as a QB coach in 2004.

I would take one as an assistant to the DB coach. Hell, I would take one as the freaking intern ^5 Last time I checked, they still freaking COUNT :welcome:

scttgrd
06-06-2009, 01:03 AM
And this wonderfull coach couldn't bring himself to work with one of the more talented players in the league. So I guess Orton is the chosen one.

I don't want a coach that can't work with talented but flawed players, I want a coach that can manage the ego's and get the best out of them. Not just ship them out of town because they don't bw to the greatness.

I hear how McDaniels is "coaching up" Orton, but how much progress would we be seeeing from Culter with the same attention?

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 01:05 AM
Wow, pretty strong statement. Very interesting.

You've been outspoken about position coaching for some time now, so this is very noteworthy.

Nunnely, Ed Donatell (former DC in GB and ATL), and Martindale are all upgrades from the position coaches since 2003. Nolan may be the best DC since Phillips and certainly as qualified as Coyer was. I like the D Staff more than the talent right now, but talent wins on "D" more than coaching eventually.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 01:10 AM
And this wonderfull coach couldn't bring himself to work with one of the more talented players in the league. So I guess Orton is the chosen one.

I don't want a coach that can't work with talented but flawed players, I want a coach that can manage the ego's and get the best out of them. Not just ship them out of town because they don't bw to the greatness.

I hear how McDaniels is "coaching up" Orton, but how much progress would we be seeeing from Culter with the same attention?

LEARN TO READ DUDE. it has been posted hundreds of times since the trade happened. BOWLEN was the one who had finally had enough of Cutler's being a whiny bitch and decided to trade him.
McDaniels was still reaching out to him and trying to get him back in Denver, but the whiny bitch wouldn't answer his coach or his owner and because of that got his ass tossed.

Orton does not have the physical tools that Cutler did, but because of that he doesn't have the my **** don't stink attitude and the ego that tells him he can fit the ball anywhere.

plus he wins games, Cutler can't say that. and for all the supposed talent he was bringing to the team, we still only finished 16th in scoring last season. 370 points can and will be surpassed by Orton leading the team playing in McDaniels offense.

footstepsfrom#27
06-06-2009, 01:10 AM
I am sorry to inform you that reality just bit you on the ass:

First time, first year head coaches that made the playoffs last year= 3 out of 5.

First time, Second year Head coaches who made the playoffs = 4.

So, 7 of 12 Head coaches were rookies or second year coaches. Both Coaches in the superbowl were First time, Second year HC's BTW.

So, you might want to rethink your thesis there partner.

Also, Raheem Morris has never been an NFL coordinator so if your going by experience in the NFL he would have to be ahead of him.
Come on man...you know I'm not that stupid. Just because X happened in year Y instead of Z as it should have...means squat. The basic premise is that experience is important. If you wish to dispute that...then let's fire the head coach every 3 years and start over with a rookie.

Some of these discussions are utterly assanine. Orton's superior to Cutler, McDaniels should be ranked ahead of established coaches since he's never coached before, every position on the team is better, trading #1's for a #2 is genius...if you're optimistic and upbeat because you think this guy's smart and you see the direction he's taking as something better than we have before...that's great, I can see some things I like and some positive signs as well. It's not all gloomy news...I get that.

But let's try to keep this outside the realm of the crack pipe shall we?

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 01:17 AM
Nunnely, Ed Donatell (former DC in GB and ATL), and Martindale are all upgrades from the position coaches since 2003. Nolan may be the best DC since Phillips and certainly as qualified as Coyer was. I like the D Staff more than the talent right now, but talent wins on "D" more than coaching eventually.

as much as i agree talent wins games. it comes down to the coaching staff putting that talent into positions to succeed.

for instance we could have fielded a defense with the Umeniora(before injury), Haynesworth, Mario Williams, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, DJ, Champ, Asomughua, Ed Reed, and Polomaulu last season but with Slowik calling the shots and his lousy schemes the defense still would have been bad.

all the talent in the world can look bad if not used properly, which makes me happy to see us with a really good defensive staff.

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 01:18 AM
And this wonderfull coach couldn't bring himself to work with one of the more talented players in the league. So I guess Orton is the chosen one.

I don't want a coach that can't work with talented but flawed players, I want a coach that can manage the ego's and get the best out of them. Not just ship them out of town because they don't bw to the greatness.

I hear how McDaniels is "coaching up" Orton, but how much progress would we be seeeing from Culter with the same attention?

That is entirely your viewpoint, has Zero facts, and leaves much to speculate on without any way to prove. It's a glorified game of "What IF".

However:

1. McDaniels would have worked with Cutler, he tried, it was Cutler who cut all contact, refused to go to work, pissed off the owner, and ultimately decided HE would not play for Josh McDaniels. Did McDaniels get played like a fiddle? ABSOLUTELY. However, it has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to coach. He took a QB who had not played a meaningful game since high school and outperformed Cutler last year. So, maybe that's why he might have thought about trading for him.

2. Orton is OK. He is not going to be the focal point of the offense though, like Culter was and wanted to be. That's fine by me if DEN plays better overall, wins more games, and makes the playoffs. It is not important to me to have the QB with the Laser rocket arm. Just the one that wins games by not making mistakes.

3. What Progress had we seen from Jay the last 2 and a half years? He still has all kinds of consistency issues. Yes, he makes incredible plays. However, some of them of incredibly stupid, not incredibly good. He has lost more than few games throwing a late pick six or just not finishing under pressure. However, all that is moot because of point 1.

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 01:25 AM
Come on man...you know I'm not that stupid. Just because X happened in year Y instead of Z as it should have...means squat. The basic premise is that experience is important. If you wish to dispute that...then let's fire the head coach every 3 years and start over with a rookie.

Some of these discussions are utterly assanine. Orton's superior to Cutler, McDaniels should be ranked ahead of established coaches since he's never coached before, every position on the team is better, trading #1's for a #2 is genius...if you're optimistic and upbeat because you think this guy's smart and you see the direction he's taking as something better than we have before...that's great, I can see some things I like and some positive signs as well. It's not all gloomy news...I get that.

But let's try to keep this outside the realm of the crack pipe shall we?


No, that was your change of premise when you tried to switch focus on what Kaylore said about logic bias. He accurately described your rationale lacking the opposite not being proven untrue. You then asserted the experience argument as a way out, while ignoring the original premise.

The fact is the league trend is to go with younger first time coaches as HC's rather than resigning guys like Cowher, Gruden, and Shanahan. Those coaches have been highly successful with those teasm the last 2 years as well, leading to a record high 11 new Head Coaches this year. So, while I know you said let's change Head caoches every three years in jest, I think the carousel is going to have a shorter ride if new HC's continue to make teams prepared to make the playoffs quickly.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 01:27 AM
2. Orton is OK. He is not going to be the focal point of the offense though, like Culter was and wanted to be. That's fine by me if DEN plays better overall, wins more games, and makes the playoffs. It is not important to me to have the QB with the Laser rocket arm. Just the one that wins games by not making mistakes.




i agree completely. i will gladly take the season Plummer had in 2005 that got Denver to the AFCCG over Cutler's last season record setting pro bowl season that got them a vacation to watch the playoffs from home

TheReverend
06-06-2009, 01:43 AM
as much as i agree talent wins games. it comes down to the coaching staff putting that talent into positions to succeed.

for instance we could have fielded a defense with the Umeniora(before injury), Haynesworth, Mario Williams, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, DJ, Champ, Asomughua, Ed Reed, and Polomaulu last season but with Slowik calling the shots and his lousy schemes the defense still would have been bad.

all the talent in the world can look bad if not used properly, which makes me happy to see us with a really good defensive staff.

No. No, it wouldn't have.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 03:51 AM
No. No, it wouldn't have.

the talent level on our defense on a player by player basis last year wasn't that bad. at the begining of the season had you just looked over the roster on paper, before injuries and Slowik happened you would have thought that was going to be a decent defense. not world beaters but a middle of the pack, ok defense that would be able to keep the offense within scoring distance of winning games.

i wasn't saying a team with that much talent would look as bad as our defense last season if Slowik coached it, but it would not look anywhere near as good as it should considering the talent with Slowik not putting his players into position to succeed. i am saying a DC can make or break a defense regardless of the talent on the team, if he doesn't know how to use it.

Ramathorn
06-06-2009, 05:37 AM
Well, the verdict is in, we may as well fire him and hire someone else since we have the worst HC we can't get any worse.

agreed. fire the asshole. hire me instead. i could do a better job and cutler would still b here.:strong:

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 08:38 AM
the talent level on our defense on a player by player basis last year wasn't that bad. at the begining of the season had you just looked over the roster on paper, before injuries and Slowik happened you would have thought that was going to be a decent defense. not world beaters but a middle of the pack, ok defense that would be able to keep the offense within scoring distance of winning games.

i wasn't saying a team with that much talent would look as bad as our defense last season if Slowik coached it, but it would not look anywhere near as good as it should considering the talent with Slowik not putting his players into position to succeed. i am saying a DC can make or break a defense regardless of the talent on the team, if he doesn't know how to use it.

Yes it was. The talent was freaking horrible from day one. Do not confuse potential with talent. Talent is the application of potetntial. That defense had a huge amount of young potential, but very little talent outside of a healthy Champ Bailey and possibly a healthy DJ at Will. Most of DEN's current defense outside the Secondary has very little proven talent.

While player development is tied to coaching, which is better, Players are ultimately responsible for taking the steps to get better. That is a function of football character meeting good coaching. I just HOPE some of these guys develop under a new environment and regime, but to call them talented is a misnomer.

lex
06-06-2009, 09:24 AM
It doesnt really matter what anyone says about the Broncos, good or bad. Its almost always the same where some team goes from being really good to really bad and vice versa. And they rarely get it right.

gunns
06-06-2009, 10:01 AM
What does it matter how the coach is "predicted" to be. I get the sports magazines this time of year primarily because I'm starved to read up on some football. I generally keep them till the end of the year and find that the predictions are totally off.

I can understand them feeling this way about McDaniels. The handling of the whole situation was awful by the Broncos and McDaniels in particular. He'll have something to prove and I'm praying he shows them all. One thing he did was hire a new D coordinator. To me, that was huge. I don't believe the QB situation is that big of deal, our O line will help even an average QB look good. It will all come down to the D. Did he do enough? I doubt it, but I'm not expecting the SB this year, I just want to see improvement, major improvement.

Kaylore
06-06-2009, 10:03 AM
Nunnely, Ed Donatell (former DC in GB and ATL), and Martindale are all upgrades from the position coaches since 2003. Nolan may be the best DC since Phillips and certainly as qualified as Coyer was. I like the D Staff more than the talent right now, but talent wins on "D" more than coaching eventually.

And we finally ditched Jacob Burney! I wondered if you didn't have a private dance party when that happened.

TheReverend
06-06-2009, 10:14 AM
the talent level on our defense on a player by player basis last year wasn't that bad. at the begining of the season had you just looked over the roster on paper, before injuries and Slowik happened you would have thought that was going to be a decent defense. not world beaters but a middle of the pack, ok defense that would be able to keep the offense within scoring distance of winning games.

i wasn't saying a team with that much talent would look as bad as our defense last season if Slowik coached it, but it would not look anywhere near as good as it should considering the talent with Slowik not putting his players into position to succeed. i am saying a DC can make or break a defense regardless of the talent on the team, if he doesn't know how to use it.

Dude, with that talent line-up, and leadership, a chimpanzee could DC that to a top 5-10 unit.

lex
06-06-2009, 10:25 AM
Dude, with that talent line-up, and leadership, a chimpanzee could DC that to a top 5-10 unit.

I wonder where that unit would rank with a Slowik DCing that unit?

gunns
06-06-2009, 10:27 AM
And we finally ditched Jacob Burney! I wondered if you didn't have a private dance party when that happened.

I did, the happy dance!

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 10:47 AM
I wonder where that unit would rank with a Slowik DCing that unit?

Based on the talent alone they would be top 5. If he let them play to their strengths instead of "his scheme" they would be tremendous as they all are playmakers one on one. Remember, DEN had exactly ZERO playmakers in their front seven the last 2 years. Dumervil was close as a pass rusher for one season, but other than that not one. You give them Haynesworth, Mario Williams, Osi Umenyiora, Ray Lewis, and Pat Willis in the front seven and you would get a PIT like Defense every week. Add Champ, Asomugha, Reed, and Polomalu in the secondary and that is better than any defense in the league.

You could fill the holes with UDFA's and they would be productive as hell while OC's worried about the 7 All-pro level defenders. Hell, Lex you could even call the plays and be successful with those players executing every play.

Defense is much more about players who can win one on one battles every play, than pure scheme and deception. Pure scheme and deception can cover a multitude of inadequacies for Awhile (See 2005 and 2006 DEN defenses under Coyer) but eventually talent wins out in the end of the season and the playoffs. Offense is much more scheme dependent on creating matchup problems.

Most teams lack three solid CB's and coverage safeties, therefore teams are trending to the spread offense to exploit those matchups. The teams who have bee so succesful offensively the last 3 years INDY, NE, NO, ARI, and DAL have all incorparated a ton of their offense around the spread. The NYG and SD are the exceptions as they are much less inclined to run the spread, even though they do utilize that package to complement their running game.

outdoor_miner
06-06-2009, 01:02 PM
Um, no. Seriously this is what you are bringing to the table?

1. I hate the DL, they are the worst unit in the NFL IMHO.

2. The front seven is completely unimpressive, and that INCLUDES DJ williams playing inside LB in any 3-4 front.

From what I've read in the past, you seem like you would have an understanding of how an NFL team works from the inside... How much input do you think Nolan has had in evaluating/acquiring the "talent" on this defense? This is something that gives me some level of comfort... The fact that Nolan is involved, and likely telling McDaniels what he needs to succeed, especially given Nolan's level of experience. He's probably afforded even more input into the process. Is this how it works? Or are the coordinators given little input into player acquisition?

barryr
06-06-2009, 01:07 PM
Ranking coaches who haven't even coached a preseason game? It would be hard to find anything more dumber than that. McDaniel haters are going to hang their hat on this stupidity? Glad I'm not you.

OABB
06-06-2009, 01:08 PM
Ranking coaches who haven't even coached a preseason game? It would be hard to find anything more dumber than that. McDaniel haters are going to hang their hat on this stupidity? Glad I'm not you.

not really.:wiggle:

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 01:40 PM
From what I've read in the past, you seem like you would have an understanding of how an NFL team works from the inside... How much input do you think Nolan has had in evaluating/acquiring the "talent" on this defense? This is something that gives me some level of comfort... The fact that Nolan is involved, and likely telling McDaniels what he needs to succeed, especially given Nolan's level of experience. He's probably afforded even more input into the process. Is this how it works? Or are the coordinators given little input into player acquisition?

Every team is different. There is no way to tell how much input the assistant coaches have unless you are a part of the process. Hell, Shanahan always tried to play it that the Assistant Coaches had a lot of input in selecting personnel when I know they did not. Teams always try to put their best foot forward to the media and the masses, but rarely do they do what they say in reality.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 01:45 PM
Yes it was. The talent was freaking horrible from day one. Do not confuse potential with talent. Talent is the application of potetntial. That defense had a huge amount of young potential, but very little talent outside of a healthy Champ Bailey and possibly a healthy DJ at Will. Most of DEN's current defense outside the Secondary has very little proven talent.

While player development is tied to coaching, which is better, Players are ultimately responsible for taking the steps to get better. That is a function of football character meeting good coaching. I just HOPE some of these guys develop under a new environment and regime, but to call them talented is a misnomer.

dude, we had finally addressed the DL and looked ok with our starting DTs Thomas and Robertson, Doom was back on the line, DJ was in his natural position, even Boss was an upgrade at SAM, Champ still had Bly and that was still considered amongst top CB tandems in the league. we addressed the Safety position granted we did it terribly, but it seemed to be upgraded over previous seasons.

i am not saying that all year long the talent showed, but at the begining of the season before a single game was played, the defense looked ok from a personnel standpoint.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 01:48 PM
I wonder where that unit would rank with a Slowik DCing that unit?

that's what i was getting at. our talent level on a personnel basis was not as bad as our defense was last season. i am simply saying that with Slowik as the DC even a defense with that much talent would not play up to the ability it had. that defensive lineup should rank amongst the top Defenses in history with a competent DC leading it, but with Slowik it would merely be an ok defense.

footstepsfrom#27
06-06-2009, 01:52 PM
No, that was your change of premise when you tried to switch focus on what Kaylore said about logic bias. He accurately described your rationale lacking the opposite not being proven untrue. You then asserted the experience argument as a way out, while ignoring the original premise.
Kaylore, as usual...HAD no original premise. He simply wanted to throw crap against a wall..."you use logic only to support your POV"...lol, yes becasue most people in here try to support the opposition's POV...whatever...the only premise I'm referencing is the basic underlying point; one which I already stated...you can't rank these guys who haven't coached but IF YOU HAD TO, then obviously since experience is important, you don't rank someone with none over someone with some...and it doesnt' matter if teams are hiring young coaches, X numbers of guys did fine last year, blah blah blah...you know your point is BS and you're just trying to start crap with me. :moon: :moon: :moon:

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 02:00 PM
dude, we had finally addressed the DL and looked ok with our starting DTs Thomas and Robertson, Doom was back on the line, DJ was in his natural position, even Boss was an upgrade at SAM, Champ still had Bly and that was still considered amongst top CB tandems in the league. we addressed the Safety position granted we did it terribly, but it seemed to be upgraded over previous seasons.

i am not saying that all year long the talent showed, but at the begining of the season before a single game was played, the defense looked ok from a personnel standpoint.

This is the problem: Neither of those guys has talent, but a dirtload of potential. Robertson was never a dominant DT at any time in NYJ and Thomas was nowhere near effective as a starter, in fact he graded below replacement level in my evals last year which means he was much better suited playing a limited back up role than being an NFL starter last year. Could he be better this year, maybe, but changing to a 3-4 front willnot help his skills develop.

Boss never had been a playmaker, DJ has never been a playmaker, and the front seven's weakness has crippled the effectiveness of the back four for many years in DEN.

So, again, it was a paper solution that never bore fruit. That is why I am still skeptical about the ability of the defense to improve in any consistent manner. I see a ton of paper changes, but until we see how they mask their weaknesses and respond to mismatches we will not know how tough they really are. Offseason does not involve gameplanning and matchup exploitation, its about getting down the theory of what you are doing. It always gives the defense an advantage because they get to play straight up and that allows them to cheat in non padded drills.

I'll believe they are better when I see them do it on the field.

Mediator12
06-06-2009, 02:04 PM
Kaylore, as usual...HAD no original premise. He simply wanted to throw crap against a wall..."you use logic only to support your POV"...lol, yes becasue most people in here try to support the opposition's POV...whatever...the only premise I'm referencing is the basic underlying point; one which I already stated...you can't rank these guys who haven't coached but IF YOU HAD TO, then obviously since experience is important, you don't rank someone with none over someone with some...and it doesnt' matter if teams are hiring young coaches, X numbers of guys did fine last year, blah blah blah...you know your point is BS and you're just trying to start crap with me. :moon: :moon: :moon:

You are still denying only telling one side of the story. I think ESPN has a few spots open after their outside the lines on Brandon Marshall.

Your take only tells one side of the story. Present both sides and show why your view has better merits than the other side. Instead, you act like an attorney or advocate and say your crap does not stink at all. He called you on only telling your side of the story and its true. Thing is, you are smart enough to tell both sides AND still get your point across. Would it hurt you to try?

footstepsfrom#27
06-06-2009, 02:14 PM
You are still denying only telling one side of the story. I think ESPN has a few spots open after their outside the lines on Brandon Marshall.

Your take only tells one side of the story. Present both sides and show why your view has better merits than the other side. Instead, you act like an attorney or advocate and say your crap does not stink at all. He called you on only telling your side of the story and its true. Thing is, you are smart enough to tell both sides AND still get your point across. Would it hurt you to try?
There is no "both sides" of the story, because there is NO STORY. What are you even talking about? This stupid thread is about somebody's opinion on how the coaches should be ranked. My ONLY point...is that you don't rank guys who have never coached a game in the NFL above somebody who has, so why should this be surprising? Does that ensure it's true? Hell no...not my point that it does anyway. I'm only arguing that the logic of placing rooks at the back of the line in some kind of ranking system makes sense before they've coached a game...nothing more, nothing less.

Keep jabbering about rookie coaches last year and trends in hiring young guys...all of which has zero to do with the point. The fact is nobody knows what these rookie coaches will do until they do it.

Broncos4tw
06-06-2009, 02:48 PM
What.. because they are a rookie, they should just be left off the chart? Sorry, that doesn't excuse bonehead decisions he has made so far.

I'll be behind the guy 100%. But I'm not confident.. yet. I hope he proves all naysayers wrong, because a revolving coach is certain to cause years of mediocrity.

Based on the limited data they have so far, I'd say an accurate rating.

Popps
06-06-2009, 02:59 PM
Kaylore, as usual...HAD no original premise.

I don't always agree with him, but Kaylore is one of the best posters on the forum. You're way off base with that criticism.

footstepsfrom#27
06-06-2009, 03:11 PM
I don't always agree with him, but Kaylore is one of the best posters on the forum. You're way off base with that criticism.
True most of the time...but when it comes to him jousting with me...lately he's more prone to just launch stuff from a crap gun.

Kaylore
06-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Ah shucks. I love you guys too.

http://pleasedress.me/img/15723.gif

rastaman
06-06-2009, 03:34 PM
Do you think we are any closer now than we were at the end of the season? All we needed was some D-line help and a healthy RB and the division would have been won. The guy has no head coaching expeience and has botched too many things this offseason.

Sporting News has McD ranked 32nd.....does this have anything to do with the fact that McD is 32 years old!!! :wiggle: Just kidding.

However, I think SN's ranking McD at 32nd is fair considering that he's an unproven rookie head coach. The mistake McD has made was not only getting rid of his Franchise Qb, but he's rolled the dice to implement his own system and add his own players too rapidly. Big risk......b/c it wasn't necessary. Can he prove everyone wrong? McD's first season could result in 4-8 wins. How about his second or third season will Denver be a playoff team by then?

One thing is for sure, McD won't repeat what Shanny did in his first 4 seasons as head coach. After all Shanahan went 46-18 reg. season, 7-1 post seasons, and back-to-back SB victories; culminating 53 wins and 19 losses in 4 years.

Perhaps McD will replicate the same record Shanny had during his last 4 years as a Bronco head coach. I personally think that will be difficult for McD to achieve.

But hey, I think Bowlen will give McDaniel's 6 years to prove if he can return the Broncos back to the top with at least on SB appearance win or loose.

We fans as facing some interesting times over the next couple of years. NFL head coaches usually don't become effective winning coaching until they reach their 40's.........McDaniel's has 8 yrs until he reaches 40!

Coach McDaniel's has a better chance of returning to NE as a Coord. under Belichik than he does becoming a super bowl winning head coach as a Bronco.

TDmvp
06-06-2009, 03:45 PM
The left demonizes anyone who dares disagree with them and tries to stamp out and deface them AKA Miss California ....

While the right is just as bad for other reasons.... But the left has cornered the market on bishing and moaning like 12 year olds with skinned knees if you dare disagree ...


Facts are facts .... If one is the old rich white guy party who is stuck in their ways and the past , then the other is the bishy whiny thin skinned Fer's who cry like children if you disagree ....


Being neither I think that is a fair description of both ...





Pseudofool stop your crying ....

Pseudofool : You derailed a football thread into a political discussion, that alone is enough for the neg rep. The fact that you took the time to look through my posts to continual neg rep me, well, that's just pretty pathetic. Good luck with your internet personality; it's a winner.


Pseudofool :
I'm sending a copy of the neg reps to a mod, because I think it's a an abuse of the system.



You wanted to play .... you Neg repped me for something everyone else took as typical conversation ... The funny thing was You Neg repped me for saying the LEFT is thin skinned and bishy which is beyond ironic and funny considering you basically proved it to be so....

In that same post I said the left is the thin skinned bishy party and the Right is the old set in their ways tight @ss party that fears change ...

YET not one righty negged repped me .... I wonder why....
I'm going with MOST right wing people have a set and are grown up enough to have a conversation without getting their feelings hurt...


And about hitting you with 5-10 neg reps for it ....I play the game different then others .... You negged me for 0 reason ...

You hit me in the balls once , I beat yours to a pulp ...
You prank call me once , I'll set a auto dialer to blow your line up for a week.
You spam my email , I'm putting your into nambla and every gay love site I can find....


I like over kill ....

footstepsfrom#27
06-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Ah shucks. I love you guys too.

http://pleasedress.me/img/15723.gif
The real Khan...

http://www.kalamu.com/bol/wp-content/content/images/chaka%20khan%20funk%20this%20cover.jpg

rastaman
06-06-2009, 04:25 PM
Sad thing is he could, hell Orton couldn't get Griese out of the lineup in Chicago. And Simms was behind Griese in Tampa. That's not a ringing endorsement by any stretch. Sad days ahead.

Good points! Both Orton and Simms are career backup journeyman QBs.....plain and simple.

Gnomeflinger
06-06-2009, 04:59 PM
Well, McD, there is no other place to go than up. Have at it, buddy.

watermock
06-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Well, McD, there is no other place to go than up. Have at it, buddy.

That's not nessisarily true. Look at Oakland, KC, Detroit, Arizona/St Louis before God came(twice)

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE=Mediator12;2437652]
So, again, it was a paper solution that never bore fruit. That is why I am still skeptical about the ability of the defense to improve in any consistent manner. I see a ton of paper changes, but until we see how they mask their weaknesses and respond to mismatches we will not know how tough they really are. Offseason does not involve gameplanning and matchup exploitation, its about getting down the theory of what you are doing. It always gives the defense an advantage because they get to play straight up and that allows them to cheat in non padded drills.

[QUOTE]

that's what i am trying to tell you. on paper a defense may look good but if the DC is playing them in ways that exploit their weaknesses and playing bad schemes the defense will look like **** regardless of potential talent level of the players. on paper last season our Defensive lineup looked ok, not anywhere near as bad as it performed, and that is due to ****ty scheming by our DC and playing away from our players strengths.

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 07:27 PM
I guess this artical wasn't written by a east coast homo Ha! cause they love bellichick and his spawns.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 07:30 PM
Good points! Both Orton and Simms are career backup journeyman QBs.....plain and simple.

so, Orton being mentioned as a possible MVP candidate the 1st half of last season, and then displaying a lot of toughness by battling out the other half of the season on a severe high ankle sprain that can be worse than an actual broken ankle while only playing for 1 team up until this season is the definition of a backup journeyman QB to you?

the guy had no help in Chicago. Ron Rivera is not exactly known as a great offensive mind, and outside of Forte and Olsen he had nothing and when he was able to find those guys, his line let him down and he got hit.

the guy is going to shock a lot of people. look at him in Purdue in a system similar to what McDaniels will run. He was good, and with our line protecting him and weapons all over the field, he is going to have a really good season, and make it a strong possibility that he will be our QB for the next few years at least.

TDmvp
06-06-2009, 07:50 PM
so, Orton being mentioned as a possible MVP candidate the 1st half of last season, and then displaying a lot of toughness by battling out the other half of the season on a severe high ankle sprain that can be worse than an actual broken ankle while only playing for 1 team up until this season is the definition of a backup journeyman QB to you?

the guy had no help in Chicago. Ron Rivera is not exactly known as a great offensive mind, and outside of Forte and Olsen he had nothing and when he was able to find those guys, his line let him down and he got hit.

the guy is going to shock a lot of people. look at him in Purdue in a system similar to what McDaniels will run. He was good, and with our line protecting him and weapons all over the field, he is going to have a really good season, and make it a strong possibility that he will be our QB for the next few years at least.



Both have career back up skill sets that is for sure ...

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 07:56 PM
Uninformed idiot (how many months has it been?):

No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 08:00 PM
Uninformed idiot (how many months has it been?):

No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot

Edited Quote - "No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by letting the franchise quarterback walk away. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot."

Would that be better? The wording is wrong, but the meaning behind it holds water...

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 08:08 PM
Edited Quote - "No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by letting the franchise quarterback walk away. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot."

Would that be better? The wording is wrong, but the meaning behind it holds water...


Add another bronco fan to uninformed list i guess.

OABB
06-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Add another bronco fan to uninformed list i guess.

not to re-hash this, but after all the dust has settled, I'm confused why anyone would say that Mcd ran Cutler out of town.

I was as pro Cutler as anyone (my avatar was Josh having a thought bubble about a kid with down syndrome saying "I can make him a probowler"..) but it was CLEARLY Cutler who ran himself out of town. Again I don't want to start up the debates again, but seriously, how can anyone think differently/

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 08:19 PM
Add another bronco fan to uninformed list i guess.

Ok, inform me, I am really trying to understand your point of view here. Would after Bowlen ran Cutler out of town be more truthful? I don't get it. The end result is McDaniels came in, Cutler is gone, and we now have a downgrade at QB. Downgrading the most important position on the team, REGARDLESS of how it happened is not a positive.

OABB
06-06-2009, 08:22 PM
Ok, inform me, I am really trying to understand your point of view here. Would after Bowlen ran Cutler out of town be more truthful? I don't get it. The end result is McDaniels came in, Cutler is gone, and we now have a downgrade at QB. Downgrading the most important position on the team, REGARDLESS of how it happened is not a positive.

true...except it makes a difference when you make statements like "He traded Cutler or, in your case, "ran Cutler out of town."

I have bolded the best part of your post.

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Ok, inform me, I am really trying to understand your point of view here. Would after Bowlen ran Cutler out of town be more truthful? I don't get it. The end result is McDaniels came in, Cutler is gone, and we now have a downgrade at QB. Downgrading the most important position on the team, REGARDLESS of how it happened is not a positive.

cutler left on his own accord he cried from day one when shanahan got canned cause he stuck with slowick ( did i miss anything?) go ahead and pretend bowlen did it all and cutler isn't a cry baby b****. I guess cutler having his dad hand in his playbook got past you the douchebag never had it he never intended on being a bronco but go head and blame bowlen if it makes you feel better.

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 08:29 PM
true...except it makes a difference when you make statements like "He traded Cutler or, in your case, "ran Cutler out of town."

I have bolded the best part of your post.

Ok, then lets get the whole thing right. Edited Quote - "No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by watching the franchise quarterback whine and cry until the owner is forced to get what value he can for him. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot."

I have no problem with that, categorize it however you want, the team is worse off and that is the point behind it no matter how you say it.

OABB
06-06-2009, 08:32 PM
Ok, then lets get the whole thing right. Edited Quote - "No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by watching the franchise quarterback whine and cry until the owner is forced to get what value he can for him. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot."

I have no problem with that, categorize it however you want, the team is worse off and that is the point behind it no matter how you say it.

That's much better.:thanku:

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 08:32 PM
not to re-hash this, but after all the dust has settled, I'm confused why anyone would say that Mcd ran Cutler out of town.

I was as pro Cutler as anyone (my avatar was Josh having a thought bubble about a kid with down syndrome saying "I can make him a probowler"..) but it was CLEARLY Cutler who ran himself out of town. Again I don't want to start up the debates again, but seriously, how can anyone think differently/

i'm with you completely. i was on Jay's side to begin the entire debate, but after awhile of his constant bitching and moaning and not returning Bowlen's calls it became obvious who was to blame in the situation.

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 08:35 PM
cutler left on his own accord he cried from day one when shanahan got canned cause he stuck with slowick ( did i miss anything?) go ahead and pretend bowlen did it all and cutler isn't a cry baby b****. I guess cutler having his dad hand in his playbook got past you the douchebag never had it he never intended on being a bronco but go head and blame bowlen if it makes you feel better.

I don't care who gets the blame, blame me if you want. It doesn't matter, the fact is the team is worse off than it was before McDaniels got here (at least regarding the QB according to this reporter), and that is the justification. Hiding behind the "it's all Jay's fault" line won't win us any games, and it probably won't prolong McDaniels career. Accept and move on. I am starting to think that maybe, just maybe they can make up for the downgrade there with the upgrades at RB with Moreno, more quality depth, and a change in scheme, but deluding myself that it is all ok because it is Jays fault isn't on the table for me.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 08:38 PM
Ok, then lets get the whole thing right. Edited Quote - "No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by watching the franchise quarterback whine and cry until the owner is forced to get what value he can for him. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot."

I have no problem with that, categorize it however you want, the team is worse off and that is the point behind it no matter how you say it.

what was McDaniels expected to do. call him in for meetings he did. call him trying to get his whiny ass on the phone he did.

what else was left except for hold him like an infant, give him his bottle and wipe his ass.

Jay was a whiny bitch and now he can be a whiny bitch in Chicago. and for all the crap about how we are some much worse off with Orton than Jay, look at the facts. Orton is 22-11 as a starter while Jay was 17-20.

also, when the game was on the line or it was must win time for Jay he was nototious for tossing a bad pass that killed us or playing like **** down the stretch when a win would have put us in a completely different situation with Jay, Mike and Slowik still in Denver.

you say we downgraded at QB but to be honest we also get rid of an inflated ego, a bad attitude, and a crybaby when Jay was traded. and in return we got a guy who has been battle tested in Chicago, is a guy who has shown an ability to win in the league, and is a team 1st guy.

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 08:38 PM
That's much better.:thanku:

Except denver doesn't want a whining crying QB, so is looking past this weak quality worth keeping him and really knowing he didn't want to stay in denver.The kid got his way so he knows hes in the drivers seat in chicago so good luck to them when times get rough.

Bronx33
06-06-2009, 08:40 PM
I don't care who gets the blame, blame me if you want. It doesn't matter, the fact is the team is worse off than it was before McDaniels got here (at least regarding the QB according to this reporter), and that is the justification. Hiding behind the "it's all Jay's fault" line won't win us any games, and it probably won't prolong McDaniels career. Accept and move on. I am starting to think that maybe, just maybe they can make up for the downgrade there with the upgrades at RB with Moreno, more quality depth, and a change in scheme, but deluding myself that it is all ok because it is Jays fault isn't on the table for me.

I do.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 08:45 PM
I don't care who gets the blame, blame me if you want. It doesn't matter, the fact is the team is worse off than it was before McDaniels got here (at least regarding the QB according to this reporter), and that is the justification. Hiding behind the "it's all Jay's fault" line won't win us any games, and it probably won't prolong McDaniels career. Accept and move on. I am starting to think that maybe, just maybe they can make up for the downgrade there with the upgrades at RB with Moreno, more quality depth, and a change in scheme, but deluding myself that it is all ok because it is Jays fault isn't on the table for me.

how is the team worse? we might not have as much athletic talent at QB, but everywhere else we have upgraded. but with the loss of athletic talent, we also rid ourselves of a mopey, egotistical, bad attitude, bad decision making QB, and gain a guy who is team oriented, does not give up, isn't mopey and whiny. realizes the NFL is a business and he has to earn his job.

and for as athletically gifted as Jay was, he still only led us to 16th in points scord which is a number Orton and McDaniels can better.

we upgraded the coaching staff, and finally have good defensive minds working on fixing the ****hole of a defense Shanahan left. we dumped the garbage players Mike had an affinity for and would never release, we finally paid attention to the RB position and didn't just decide to fill it with some scrub because our system can generate yards, we addressed the secondary big time in the draft and FA.

all in all we are vastly better than we were last season, whether or not you want to believe it

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 09:05 PM
what was McDaniels expected to do. call him in for meetings he did. call him trying to get his whiny ass on the phone he did.

what else was left except for hold him like an infant, give him his bottle and wipe his ass.

Jay was a whiny b**** and now he can be a whiny b**** in Chicago. and for all the crap about how we are some much worse off with Orton than Jay, look at the facts. Orton is 22-11 as a starter while Jay was 17-20.

also, when the game was on the line or it was must win time for Jay he was nototious for tossing a bad pass that killed us or playing like **** down the stretch when a win would have put us in a completely different situation with Jay, Mike and Slowik still in Denver.

you say we downgraded at QB but to be honest we also get rid of an inflated ego, a bad attitude, and a crybaby when Jay was traded. and in return we got a guy who has been battle tested in Chicago, is a guy who has shown an ability to win in the league, and is a team 1st guy.

I would have held out. Call Jay up, when he doesn't answer the phone, leave a message.

Jay, you will be a Bronco next year, if you choose to tank games, you will be a Bronco sitting on the bench, and you will hurt your money making ability in the long run by doing that. If you choose to play ball with us, call me and we will go over the play book, see you for mandatory camps, or your wallet will take another hit.

Giving up and letting the other guy get what he wants isn't exactly the trait I want to see in my HC. There is no way that before January of this year you would have said Orton is an upgrade over Cutler. I think Orton has a chance here, I think he will be vastly better than he was in Chicago thanks to his superior surrounding cast on offense. I do not think he has the physical skills to match up to Cutler if we had found a way out of the mess Jay put us in.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 09:08 PM
I would have held out. Call Jay up, when he doesn't answer the phone, leave a message.

Jay, you will be a Bronco next year, if you choose to tank games, you will be a Bronco sitting on the bench, and you will hurt your money making ability in the long run by doing that. If you choose to play ball with us, call me and we will go over the play book, see you for mandatory camps, or your wallet will take another hit.

Giving up and letting the other guy get what he wants isn't exactly the trait I want to see in my HC. There is no way that before January of this year you would have said Orton is an upgrade over Cutler. I think Orton has a chance here, I think he will be vastly better than he was in Chicago thanks to his superior surrounding cast on offense. I do not think he has the physical skills to match up to Cutler if we had found a way out of the mess Jay put us in.

so in other words you wanted McDaniels to baby him and make him happy because he was sad. **** Cutler we are better off without him. his contributions weren't so much to the team that we are doomed without him.

and i am glad bowlen finally said **** him and dumped him on Chicago.

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 09:20 PM
how is the team worse? we might not have as much athletic talent at QB, but everywhere else we have upgraded. but with the loss of athletic talent, we also rid ourselves of a mopey, egotistical, bad attitude, bad decision making QB, and gain a guy who is team oriented, does not give up, isn't mopey and whiny. realizes the NFL is a business and he has to earn his job.

and for as athletically gifted as Jay was, he still only led us to 16th in points scord which is a number Orton and McDaniels can better.

we upgraded the coaching staff, and finally have good defensive minds working on fixing the ****hole of a defense Shanahan left. we dumped the garbage players Mike had an affinity for and would never release, we finally paid attention to the RB position and didn't just decide to fill it with some scrub because our system can generate yards, we addressed the secondary big time in the draft and FA.

all in all we are vastly better than we were last season, whether or not you want to believe it

We downgraded at QB (at least athletic talent), we upgrade in the defensive backfield and at running back. Everywhere else we have stayed pretty stagnant. I have been fairly vocal in my praise of some of the moves, RB is good, with the O-line, turner, and Dennison, I see a very high probability of improvement. The D-Backs have positives as well, I will give you that, but without a line I am not sure that matters much. I can see clearly where this writer is coming from though.

All of the improvements are from rookies or veterans that other teams let go, which may not be much of an improvement at all. The obvious glaring negative is at QB, witness the two first round picks we got in addition to the guy we are now going to start. The draft did NOT address our first area of need, nor did we address it with skilled players in FA. There are some areas where I disagree with him (which I have already stated earlier in this same thread), but I understand why he would look at it that way.

To call anyone else that would look at it that way an uninformed idiot is absurd. I can see why you guys are so hopeful, if everything goes right, we could be next years Miami or Atlanta. I don't think that is likely though, so once again I disagree with it, but I can understand it.

frerottenextelway
06-06-2009, 09:20 PM
cutler left on his own accord he cried from day one when shanahan got canned cause he stuck with slowick ( did i miss anything?) go ahead and pretend bowlen did it all and cutler isn't a cry baby b****. I guess cutler having his dad hand in his playbook got past you the douchebag never had it he never intended on being a bronco but go head and blame bowlen if it makes you feel better.

Bowlen said point blank that retaining Slowick had nothing to do with Shanahan getting fired. Why are you calling Pat a liar? Seems pretty harsh to slam our owner like that.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 09:23 PM
Bowlen said point blank that retaining Slowick had nothing to do with Shanahan getting fired. Why are you calling Pat a liar? Seems pretty harsh to slam our owner like that.

he isn't going to tell the media everything. but come on, if your coach is that stupid that he won't dump the worst DC the league has seen in a really long time maybe ever, it is time to let him go.

BroncoInSkinland
06-06-2009, 09:24 PM
so in other words you wanted McDaniels to baby him and make him happy because he was sad. **** Cutler we are better off without him. his contributions weren't so much to the team that we are doomed without him.

and i am glad bowlen finally said **** him and dumped him on Chicago.

Whatever. So tired of this argument I am not even gonna try it any more. I say hit him in the pocket book until he submits, you say baby him. Ok you are right, you win, I am a Cutler apologist and a McDaniels hater. Enjoy your perfect season.

watermock
06-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Nine months from now, the line will be: "If Cutler didn't force his way out of here...Whaaa".

OABB
06-06-2009, 10:06 PM
Nine months from now, the line will be: "If Cutler didn't force his way out of here...Whaaa".

i think its that way now.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2009, 10:09 PM
Nine months from now, the line will be: "If Cutler didn't force his way out of here...Whaaa".

or we'll all not care that he is gone, and be hoping we can re-sign Orton for long term

epicSocialism4tw
06-07-2009, 01:23 AM
32. Josh McDaniels, Broncos. No head coach, especially a rookie, makes his mark by trading away the franchise quarterback. McDaniels is already off on the wrong foot.
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=556480

He's really making an impression on the media and fans...

AAAAAHHHH!!!!

Ha!

He started off on the wrong foot and has followed it up with several wrong feet afterward. He has a long way to go to win the trust of Broncos fans with at least half-a-wit.