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Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 07:37 AM
Since many of you don't think it exists, and while it's related to racism in general, I thought a new thread was in order. Here's a section from a somewhat dated essay by Peggy MacIntosh (a white woman) to get the fuel burning. I know this will probably upset some, but so be it.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
Edit: I don't necessarily agree with each one, but the spirit here is that privilege is largely invisible, and people have trouble acknowledging privilege (esp. poor white folk, of which I belong) because they believe it down plays their successes.

Spider
06-03-2009, 07:38 AM
Long list .........

bronco militia
06-03-2009, 07:39 AM
<a href='http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blackfacetrollcat.jpg'><img src='http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7440/blackfacetrollcat.jpg' border='0' alt='Image Hosted by ImageShack.us'/></a><br/>

Hotrod
06-03-2009, 07:42 AM
http://images.inmagine.com/img/imagehit/ih017/ih017029.jpg

lex
06-03-2009, 07:43 AM
Since many of you don't think it exists, and while it's related to racism in general, I thought a new thread was in order. Here's a section from a somewhat dated essay by Peggy MacIntosh (a white woman) to get the fuel burning. I know this will probably upset some, but so be it.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

Edit: I don't necessarily agree with each one, but the spirit here is that privilege is largely invisible, and people have trouble acknowledging privilege (esp. poor white folk, of which I belong) because they believe it down plays their successes.


Why couldnt you keep this in the other thread?

Doggcow
06-03-2009, 07:51 AM
I hate this ****.

Spider
06-03-2009, 07:51 AM
Why couldnt you keep this in the other thread?
to make you ask questions ......looks like it worked

Doggcow
06-03-2009, 07:52 AM
Black Privilege: I got shot fitty times so now I get to be a millionaire yelling out bitches and skeet skeet skeet!

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 08:06 AM
Why couldnt you keep this in the other thread?If it's a problem, ask a mod to delete it (or can I do it?). As threads tend to grow in length it tends to marginalize people from taking part in the discussion.

Garcia Bronco
06-03-2009, 08:09 AM
You shouldn't delete the thread. It's an honest discussion. If people get all butt hurt by it, then it's their problem. Not yours.

Ofcourse that doesn't mean they cannot make fun of you for it either. I personally appreciate people that will stick their neck out there.

lex
06-03-2009, 08:11 AM
If it's a problem, ask a mod to delete it (or can I do it?). As threads tend to grow in length it tends to marginalize people from taking part in the discussion.

It just more difficult to keep track of one discussion that is occurring over multiple threads.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 08:16 AM
It just more difficult to keep track of one discussion that is occurring over multiple threads.Sure, but those threads have fallen into other specifics of AA and race; I felt this was a unique enough topic.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 08:18 AM
On topic, I think numbers 19-21 are some of the most important on the list. Number 46 shows the age of the article I think, as there are a variety of flesh colored bandaids these days, I believe.

Beantown Bronco
06-03-2009, 08:25 AM
On topic, I think numbers 19-21 are some of the most important on the list. Number 46 shows the age of the article I think, as there are a variety of flesh colored bandaids these days, I believe.

I get the point of the article, but quite a few of these are dated.....at least in my experience. Many of these really aren't issues anymore, and if the individual still feels they are, it's because of their own personal insecurities or what they were taught growing up by others.....they are not based on actual events or behaviors of "white America" towards them during their life.

lex
06-03-2009, 08:26 AM
Does anyone remember this?

http://www.susps.org/ibq1998/discuss/choked.html

And then a few years later there was this news item that kind of explained managements direction in the first link:

http://www.susps.org/


---

Before considering the advancement of one cause, its best to consider the trade offs. This episode with the Sierra Club is a good example of how overrun by PC thinking people have become.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 08:27 AM
I think we can all agree that if you look for racism in a situation, you can find it. I can find racism against whites on a daily basis just the same.. if I look hard enough.

Ultimately the question has no answer though, it's all perspective. I see that a large majority of prisoners in this country are black and that will undoubtedly hurt their average standing in society. Blacks, on the other side, see that they're being unfairly targeted and it's not their fault that so many are in jail. It goes round and round.

Garcia Bronco
06-03-2009, 08:30 AM
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.


I consider these all problems. They really do exist in perception. It important to remember these IMO. Who really thinks when they see Barak speak that he speaks for an entire race of people? He does, but no one ethnic group within that race. Now when he was elected, SJ for example, said that his parents finally felt like they were a part of the country. So it would seem on some level that this goes both ways. Meaning white and black Americans feel like leaders that are black speak for the black "race". It's strange to me at this age. But I must admit when I was younger I had this same thought process..

SleepingTiger
06-03-2009, 08:31 AM
You shouldn't delete the thread. It's an honest discussion. If people get all butt hurt by it, then it's their problem. Not yours.

Ofcourse that doesn't mean they cannot make fun of you for it either. I personally appreciate people that will stick their neck out there.

don't stick your neck out too far, you might get throat punched

Los Broncos
06-03-2009, 08:31 AM
Being white is cool.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 08:32 AM
Somewhere the guy with the michael young avatar's head is exploding

Spider
06-03-2009, 08:32 AM
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.


I consider these all problems. They really do exist in perception. It important to remember these IMO. Who really thinks when they see Barak speak that he speaks for an entire race of people? He does, but no one ethnic group within that race. Now when he was elected, SJ for example, said that his parents finally felt like they were a part of the country. So it would seem on some level that this goes both ways. Meaning white and black Americans feel like leaders that are black speak for the black "race". It's strange to me at this age. But I must admit when I was younger I had this same thought process..

everyone does .......

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 08:40 AM
I can if I wish beat myself up about old crap that happened and take a narrow view of History focusing only on one part.

I can if I wish put people on a level playing field. Treat them all as I wish to be treated, and not feel guilty about it.

Racism-It is awesome compared to Liberia.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 08:47 AM
I can if I wish put people on a level playing field.How? Are you suggesting that we all start out on a level playing field? Really?

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 08:57 AM
How? Are you suggesting that we all start out on a level playing field? Really?

Life is not about where you start now is it. Everyone has some Behind the music sob story. And I really don't care. You get ahead by where you go not where you came from.

If you treat everyone in your life with a level playing field this becomes a nonissue.

RaiderH8r
06-03-2009, 09:09 AM
Isn't awesome being white? Universally revered, unequivicolly awesome, rolling in cash, secret whitey meetings on how to oppress people and the whole secret to immortality thing we have. "Like whites, if I could be like whites..."

Or I was dirt poor growing up. So poor we had to jack off the dog to feed the cat so take this race baiting bull**** and shove it.

Popps
06-03-2009, 09:28 AM
<object width="512" height="296"><param name="movie" value="http://www.hulu.com/embed/pHudtlffrTOOdU5Iz87YEg"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.hulu.com/embed/pHudtlffrTOOdU5Iz87YEg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" width="512" height="296"></embed></object>

...look how they walk, I gotta remember to keep my butt real tight....


LOL

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 09:41 AM
Life is not about where you start now is it. Everyone has some Behind the music sob story. And I really don't care. You get ahead by where you go not where you came from.

If you treat everyone in your life with a level playing field this becomes a nonissue.

This is a pretty naive view of the world. We are a society (every society is) that is based on your circumstance. One cannot be successful without a lot of things around them, beyond their control, going their way. You can increase your own chances by doing certain things, but people who grow up underprivledged with inherent bigotry towards certainly have it a lot harder. Where you came from has tons to do with who you are and what you can be.

STBumpkin
06-03-2009, 10:05 AM
I treat people fairly, no matter what their race, sex, religion, whatever. I'll tell somebody if I think how they are treating somebody else is wrong. That is all I can do, so I'm not gonna worry about it.

Florida_Bronco
06-03-2009, 10:16 AM
I can if I wish put people on a level playing field. Treat them all as I wish to be treated, and not feel guilty about it. I can't begin to describe how perfect this statement is. I which I could rep it twice.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 10:24 AM
This is a pretty naive view of the world. We are a society (every society is) that is based on your circumstance. One cannot be successful without a lot of things around them, beyond their control, going their way. You can increase your own chances by doing certain things, but people who grow up underprivledged with inherent bigotry towards certainly have it a lot harder. Where you came from has tons to do with who you are and what you can be.

I don't Think I can disagree more. Don't give me this crap. People who achieve do so from every single walk of life country and creed. When you look outside for reasons that you can't get it done you only give yourself excuses.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 10:34 AM
I don't Think I can disagree more. Don't give me this crap. People who achieve do so from every single walk of life country and creed. When you look outside for reasons that you can't get it done you only give yourself excuses.

Again, its such a naive view of the world. As i said, you can increase your CHANCES of success by working hard and whatnot, but that hardly guarentees you anything. You need luck/circumstance to fall your way to really achieve anything. This is indisputable fact. And if youre born in the ghetto, with horrid schools, after thoughts of society, its all that much harder. So disagree with me all you want. You're flat ****ing wrong.

OABB
06-03-2009, 10:36 AM
This is a pretty naive view of the world. We are a society (every society is) that is based on your circumstance. One cannot be successful without a lot of things around them, beyond their control, going their way. You can increase your own chances by doing certain things, but people who grow up underprivledged with inherent bigotry towards certainly have it a lot harder. Where you came from has tons to do with who you are and what you can be.

This is true. It is not an excuse, but it more than explains things. It will always be harder for the son of a poor family than it will be for the next Bush kid. Anyone who thinks different is confused.

ALso, you ever notice how those who speak of highly of "The American Dream", are the same people who voted for the people that systematically destroyed it? I always found that odd.

footstepsfrom#27
06-03-2009, 10:37 AM
Good topic...one that is really related to the other thread but distinctively different by virtue of the fact that it removes racism from a discussion involving singular events or episodes of bias and introduces the all important (and usually otherwise missing) element of context.

I could add a number of things to the list, but the author did a good job of breaking down something she undoubtedly had to think through first...something she had to open her mind towards before gaining understanding. I always love hearing what people say who color outside the lines and aren't afraid of their own flaws or embarassed to admit them.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 10:46 AM
This is true. It is not an excuse, but it more than explains things. It will always be harder for the son of a poor family than it will be for the next Bush kid. Anyone who thinks different is confused.

ALso, you ever notice how those who speak of highly of "The American Dream", are the same people who voted for the people that systematically destroyed it? I always found that odd.

Life is hard for a lot of people. These people though who become felons at age 16 are really the only ones who may truly not be able to leave their past. There's plenty of programs out there to help if someone is truly interested. If I wanted to put the effort in, I could find success stories all day long of someone who went truly rags to riches.

It takes some luck to become a multi-millionaire. You can rise to the tops of the middle class on hard work alone though.

BroncoBuff
06-03-2009, 10:55 AM
I reject the entire premise of this essay. Treating groups based on their race is exactly what's wrong with race relations. And one thing is definitely true: Minorities are able to gather and advocate based upon their minority status, while whites have no such, or little such rights.

Race-based advocacy groups and affirmative action based upon race are anachronisms that have no place in a just society. Many Blacks, Latinos and Asians have accoplished great success in this country, and they should receive no benefits or preferences over poor whites.

Society is on eagle-eye lookout for overt racism, and it exposed whenever possible.

It's time for minority groups to stand on their own. Hell, it;s time for minority groups to stop thinking and acting in terms OF groups.

And btw ... Blacks are over-represented in television roles based on their perecentage of the population. I'll find the link for that stat ....

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 10:57 AM
This thread is going to get really fun as soon as broncofan7 discovers it

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 10:59 AM
Or I was dirt poor growing up. So poor we had to J-O the dog to feed the cat so take this race baiting bull**** and shove it.

you had to jerk off your dog to feed the cat? :twitch:

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:01 AM
This is a pretty naive view of the world. We are a society (every society is) that is based on your circumstance. One cannot be successful without a lot of things around them, beyond their control, going their way. You can increase your own chances by doing certain things, but people who grow up underprivledged with inherent bigotry towards certainly have it a lot harder. Where you came from has tons to do with who you are and what you can be.

You are so full of ****---Inherent bigotry?????? Yeah, that's why when you put a group of multiple race 5 year olds in a sandbox, they simply sit their with their arms crosseed and refuse to play with each other---You are the spokesman for pure PC rubish...........

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 11:07 AM
Again, its such a naive view of the world. As i said, you can increase your CHANCES of success by working hard and whatnot, but that hardly guarentees you anything. You need luck/circumstance to fall your way to really achieve anything. This is indisputable fact. And if youre born in the ghetto, with horrid schools, after thoughts of society, its all that much harder. So disagree with me all you want. You're flat ****ing wrong.

And this is what is Wrong with today's society. The People who do are considered Lucky. The People who don't are Unjustly held Back. Be accountable. All I have to do to debunk your argument is find one person who achieved against your insurmountable odds. Luck is what other people call good decisions and foresight. It is also what modest people call unseen hard work.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:11 AM
This is true. It is not an excuse, but it more than explains things. It will always be harder for the son of a poor family than it will be for the next Bush kid. Anyone who thinks different is confused.

ALso, you ever notice how those who speak of highly of "The American Dream", are the same people who voted for the people that systematically destroyed it? I always found that odd.

Who doesn't agree with the bolded statement? And what does that have to do with 'white privilege'? Was I supposed to inherent some 'white wealth' that could have allowed me to attend 2 colleges without taking out student loans? Could I have bought a Mercedes while enrolled in college with that 'white privilege CC'?

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:12 AM
you had to jerk off your dog to feed the cat? :twitch:

that is pretty disturbing........

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 11:14 AM
Again, its such a naive view of the world. As i said, you can increase your CHANCES of success by working hard and whatnot, but that hardly guarentees you anything. You need luck/circumstance to fall your way to really achieve anything. This is indisputable fact. And if youre born in the ghetto, with horrid schools, after thoughts of society, its all that much harder. So disagree with me all you want. You're flat ****ing wrong.

I would say Bravo, but as soon as I do so, the Village Idiot will come in and accuse me of "bending over for everyone". That said. Great post.

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 11:17 AM
You are so full of ****---Inherent bigotry?????? Yeah, that's why when you put a group of multiple race 5 year olds in a sandbox, they simply sit their with their arms crosseed and refuse to play with each other---You are the spokesman for pure PC rubish...........

You need to get out a bit more. Ask mommy to lift your restriction.

Believe it or not, the young ones' are the only ones who are not harboring these prejudices, unless their ignorant parents teach them to be as ignorant as they are.

bronco militia
06-03-2009, 11:20 AM
Or I was dirt poor growing up. So poor we had to J-O the dog to feed the cat t.


:rofl: :spit:

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 11:20 AM
You are so full of ****---Inherent bigotry?????? Yeah, that's why when you put a group of multiple race 5 year olds in a sandbox, they simply sit their with their arms crosseed and refuse to play with each other---You are the spokesman for pure PC rubish...........

Do you live in a ****ing bubble? Seriously, do you?

TheReverend
06-03-2009, 11:20 AM
We definitely needed more racially charged threads.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 11:23 AM
And this is what is Wrong with today's society. The People who do are considered Lucky. The People who don't are Unjustly held Back. Be accountable. All I have to do to debunk your argument is find one person who achieved against your insurmountable odds. Luck is what other people call good decisions and foresight. It is also what modest people call unseen hard work.

Asshole, was i giving anyone excuses? No, i was simply stating fact. Last time i checked society, business, EVERYTHING is an interconnected web. With constant communication, nearly every act is a result of your surroundings. I'm simply stating fact that your circumstance plays a much bigger role in your development than you realize. Hell, Malcolm Gladwell just recently wrote an entire BOOK on this subject.

This "i make my own luck" is complete bull****. Under your theory, everyone who works really hard is also successful. Simply not true.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 11:26 AM
EVERYTHING is an interconnected web. These guys refuse to see it that way. They want to believe that their success is by their own grit and has no context beyond their belief that they try harder than those who don't have their success.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:29 AM
Who doesn't agree with the bolded statement? And what does that have to do with 'white privilege'? Was I supposed to inherent some 'white wealth' that could have allowed me to attend 2 colleges without taking out student loans? Could I have bought a Mercedes while enrolled in college with that 'white privilege CC'?

Dude, if you are going to argue with people, you should be good enough at it to understand the point you are arguing.

I never said anything about white privilege. All I did was point out a fact and agree with sonoflelolang(or however you spell it)...

I gather you were born into a conservative home that has some wealth, no?

STBumpkin
06-03-2009, 11:29 AM
Again, its such a naive view of the world. As i said, you can increase your CHANCES of success by working hard and whatnot, but that hardly guarentees you anything. You need luck/circumstance to fall your way to really achieve anything. This is indisputable fact. And if youre born in the ghetto, with horrid schools, after thoughts of society, its all that much harder. So disagree with me all you want. You're flat ****ing wrong.

I disagree. If you work hard, you WILL succeed in improving your position/station in life. If you start with nothing (born in the ghetto) and end up in suburbia (middle class) then you have succeeded. If you start with 10 million, and end up with 100 Million, you have also succeeded. Who can argue that both are acheivements? Yes, where you end up has something to do with where you start, but SUCCESS is a relative term. Work hard and you will improve yourself.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:30 AM
We definitely needed more racially charged threads.

agreed.

how about this one,

Why are the mods racist white cowards?

TheReverend
06-03-2009, 11:31 AM
agreed.

how about this one,

Why are the mods racist white cowards?

Wait... so you're saying they actually DID make hotrod a mod?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 11:33 AM
I disagree. If you work hard, you WILL succeed in improving your position/station in life. If you start with nothing (born in the ghetto) and end up in suburbia (middle class) then you have succeeded. If you start with 10 million, and end up with 100 Million, you have also succeeded. Who can argue that both are acheivements? Yes, where you end up has something to do with where you start, but SUCCESS is a relative term. Work hard and you will improve yourself.

I agree with that, but i'd argue that it vastly improves your CHANCES of success. i think thats an important word you omitted.

lex
06-03-2009, 11:33 AM
These guys refuse to see it that way. They want to believe that their success is by their own grit and has no context beyond their belief that they try harder than those who don't have their success.

Yeah, just like people believe that AA isnt about someone less qualified getting preferential treatment due to the advancement of some cause. I suppose the beneficiaries of such policy are entitled to think they earned it on their "own grit". This cuts both ways.

And also, people should stop acting like every place in the US is LA, Chicago, or NYC. Whites are currently around 75% of the population and its even more than that beyond the major cities. This dynamic isnt always in play.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 11:37 AM
I disagree. If you work hard, you WILL succeed in improving your position/station in life. If you start with nothing (born in the ghetto) and end up in suburbia (middle class) then you have succeeded. If you start with 10 million, and end up with 100 Million, you have also succeeded. Who can argue that both are acheivements? Yes, where you end up has something to do with where you start, but SUCCESS is a relative term. Work hard and you will improve yourself.
Think of it this way. You have 100 people who all work hard competing for 1 job. At that point, the conditions of meeting the job have nothing to do with hard work. This is where privilege begins to emerge, as education, references, and other relatively circumstantial achievements become the deciding factors.

I know plenty of people who work hard every damn day, and still live in relative poverty, like my parents.

And this speaks nothing of how people acquire work ethic which a complicated psychological process that begins with hope and confidence which is in short supply in impoverished communities.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:38 AM
The fact that G.W. Bush became president is all the proof one needs that it has a lot to do with who you know and not about qualifications and hard work.

lex
06-03-2009, 11:40 AM
Think of it this way. You have 100 people who all work hard competing for 1 job. At that point, the conditions of meeting the job have nothing to do with hard work. This is where privilege begins to emerge, as education, references, and other relatively circumstantial achievements become the deciding factors.

I know plenty of people who work hard every damn day, and still live in relative poverty, like my parents.

And this speaks nothing of how people acquire work ethic which a complicated psychological process that begins with hope and confidence which is in short supply in impoverished communities.

So you think that people who do the hiring need to be taugth/told how to think?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 11:40 AM
Yeah, just like people believe that AA isnt about someone less qualified getting preferential treatment due to the advancement of some cause. I suppose the beneficiaries of such policy are entitled to think they earned it on their "own grit". This cuts both ways. I've acknowledged the problems with AA. It's not fair, sure. But unless we're willing to level the playing field earlier in life (whcih would be hard and expensive), AA is a bandaid to diversify wealth.

How do you explain the number of White male CEOs and Senators? Do they simply work harder than everyone else? Or have they been privileged from very early on in life, which allowed them to become better qualified than nonwhite males?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 11:41 AM
So you think that people who do the hiring need to be taugth/told how to think?How did infer that? That's some sloppy reading comprehension.

STBumpkin
06-03-2009, 11:44 AM
I agree with that, but i'd argue that it vastly improves your CHANCES of success. i think thats an important word you omitted.

That's why I wrote WILL. I was not meaning futurity, I was meaning it as a certainty. I firmly believe that there is no chance involved. So long as you don't give up when you experience setbacks, constant/continuous hard work will equal success.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:44 AM
How did infer that? That's some sloppy reading comprehension.

Have you met Lex?

lex
06-03-2009, 11:46 AM
How did infer that? That's some sloppy reading comprehension.

Now youre being coy. This is ultimately where it all happens...the hiring of people. The scenario you described is one where all candidates are roughly equal and one where someone gets the job for such reasons as "being a good fit" or "he is someone I am comfortable with".

STBumpkin
06-03-2009, 11:48 AM
Think of it this way. You have 100 people who all work hard competing for 1 job. At that point, the conditions of meeting the job have nothing to do with hard work. This is where privilege begins to emerge, as education, references, and other relatively circumstantial achievements become the deciding factors.

I know plenty of people who work hard every damn day, and still live in relative poverty, like my parents.

And this speaks nothing of how people acquire work ethic which a complicated psychological process that begins with hope and confidence which is in short supply in impoverished communities.

When you don't get that one job, you don't let it stop you. You go out and find another job, and another, and another, until you get it. Or if you see that you are always going for the 1% shot, you change what you are going for. Working hard isn't just a physical thing, you also have to use your brain. Stay away from work where only 1 in 100 are successful. Or even try this: WORK HARDER THAN THEM. If it's a job that has a 1% success rate, then of course very hard working people are applying. You have to work harder than them.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:49 AM
Do you live in a ****ing bubble? Seriously, do you?

You wrote 'inherent' and it's simply NOT TRUE.

lex
06-03-2009, 11:50 AM
I've acknowledged the problems with AA. It's not fair, sure. But unless we're willing to level the playing field earlier in life (whcih would be hard and expensive), AA is a bandaid to diversify wealth.

How do you explain the number of White male CEOs and Senators? Do they simply work harder than everyone else? Or have they been privileged from very early on in life, which allowed them to become better qualified than nonwhite males?

Is that an issue of race or economics/wealth?

I agree that it goes back to the foundation which is the home environment and schools (elementary and high school). Without fixing that, AA is simply an axe to grind for those who advocate equality. You have to rebuild neighborhoods as it works now though.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Dude, if you are going to argue with people, you should be good enough at it to understand the point you are arguing.

I never said anything about white privilege. All I did was point out a fact and agree with sonoflelolang(or however you spell it)...

I gather you were born into a conservative home that has some wealth, no?

Looks like you 'gathering' ability is right up their with Slowick's ability to coordinate a defense..........

STBumpkin
06-03-2009, 11:52 AM
In a situation where everyone is roughly equal, I believe that it is your fault that you are equal and not better. You didn't work hard enough.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 11:53 AM
a-hole, was i giving anyone excuses? No, i was simply stating fact. Last time i checked society, business, EVERYTHING is an interconnected web. With constant communication, nearly every act is a result of your surroundings. I'm simply stating fact that your circumstance plays a much bigger role in your development than you realize. Hell, Malcolm Gladwell just recently wrote an entire BOOK on this subject.

This "i make my own luck" is complete bull****. Under your theory, everyone who works really hard is also successful. Simply not true.

What you state is no more fact than if I said it was a fact that you're full of it.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:53 AM
Looks like you 'gathering' ability is right up their with Slowick's ability to coordinate a defense..........

than, I gather you were born into a family that likes you being a dbag?

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Is that an issue of race or economics/wealth?

I agree that it goes back to the foundation which is the home environment and schools (elementary and high school). Without fixing that, AA is simply an axe to grind for those who advocate equality. You have to rebuild neighborhoods as it works now though.

BINGO. It's really the RICH Vs everyone else--but some see all whites as being card carrying members of 'WHITE privilege'

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 11:55 AM
than, I gather you were born into a family that likes you being a dbag?

coming from a guy who has Jeffrey Dahmer as his avatar? :afro:

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 11:57 AM
I agree that it goes back to the foundation which is the home environment and schools (elementary and high school). Without fixing that, AA is simply an axe to grind for those who advocate equality. You have to rebuild neighborhoods as it works now though.This is where we agree. But the American public is hardly willing to spend the funds to make that happen. And short of that, are you willing to live a world were wealth is perpetually White? I mean sure it's unfair for some firefighters, students, etc.; but it's also unfair to be born in poverty.

Many AA programs help poor white kids too. Esp. at the university level. Not so much in the work force.

OABB
06-03-2009, 11:58 AM
coming from a guy who has Jeffrey Dahmer as his avatar? :afro:

Actually, I'm surprised you recognized him. He was a white man who killed, tortured, raped and ate his black victims. It seems that kind of killing doesn't compute with you.


I'm looking up black serial killers that eat, rape, and torture white guys but I am having no luck.

Perhaps you could enlighten me?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:02 PM
BINGO. It's really the RICH Vs everyone else--but some see all whites as being card carrying members of 'WHITE privilege'

ummmm, look at some stats and youll see some nice disparity when it comes to race and wealth...you think thats luck?

BroncoInferno
06-03-2009, 12:05 PM
ummmm, look at some stats and youll see some nice disparity when it comes to race and wealth...you think thats luck?

Of course not...black people are simply lazier than white people.

vancejohnson82
06-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Actually, I'm surprised you recognized him. He was a white man who killed, tortured, raped and ate his black victims. It seems that kind of killing doesn't compute with you.


I'm looking up black serial killers that eat, rape, and torture white guys but I am having no luck.

Perhaps you could enlighten me?


I think we can agree that Dahmer's killings were NOT racially motivated, right?

i posted about the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders, rape and torture in the other thread....thats one off of the top of my head where it seemed to be an "opposite" hate crime...

but I thought this discussion was about the priveleges we get as white people....i actually think there is some truth to that but in my generation that gap has seriously closed and it actually has worked against me a number of times....i can see it becoming a very slippery slope where we find ourselves overcompensating

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:07 PM
You wrote 'inherent' and it's simply NOT TRUE.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I read this amazing book, and im annoyed that i cant recall the name, about how our brains have evolved slowly and that we're actually, mentally, better equipped to deal with life thousands of years ago than we are with today's current society. There is something ingrained in us that leads us to be defensive, to hate, etc. You have to always look deeper to find out what makes us who we are. Like there is a reason why people are more afraid of a terrorist attack than a car crash even though they are much more likely to die in the car accident. If youre interested in the book, i can find it when i get home. Its fascinating.

So, in short, we are not "clean slates" when we are born. Our society helps develop our DNA so that we can mentally evolve to our surroundings.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:08 PM
Actually, I'm surprised you recognized him. He was a white man who killed, tortured, raped and ate his black victims. It seems that kind of killing doesn't compute with you.


I'm looking up black serial killers that eat, rape, and torture white guys but I am having no luck.

Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Oh but it does! and why does it register in my memory? BECAUSE THE AMERICAN MEDIA FOLLOWED THIS HORRENDOUS STORY AND RIGHTFULLY SO.
How can you interpret my previous thread posts about the LACK of coverage for the white murders happening now in Africa with me somehow NOT caring about crime happening against other races is of your own twisted creation.........Can one be racist against oneself? I used to think not, but you and TGN seem to be rather convincing........

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 12:10 PM
Oh but it does! and why does it register in my memory? BECAUSE THE AMERICAN MEDIA FOLLOWED THIS HORRENDOUS STORY AND RIGHTFULLY SO.
How can you interpret my previous thread posts about the LACK of coverage for the white murders happening now in Africa with me somehow NOT caring about crime happening against other races is of your own twisted creation.........Can one be racist against oneself? I used to think not, but you and TGN seem to be rather convincing........


You have advanced your standing in the Village Idiot Race. BarryR is now a close second.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 12:10 PM
So, in short, we are not "clean slates" when we are born. Our society helps develop our DNA so that we can mentally evolve to our surroundings.I'm not sure I buy this. That's not how evolution works, anyways. I think certain emotional dispositions can be hard wired, but cultural and psychological development of the brain (for most humans) trumps biology tenfold.

I can buy that fear is hard coded, but not hate; hate takes understanding of otherness, which babies clearly lack.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 12:11 PM
ummmm, look at some stats and youll see some nice disparity when it comes to race and wealth...you think thats luck?

Last statistics I saw, blacks were something like 6 or 7 times more likely to commit murder than whites. You think that's luck?

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:11 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree. I read this amazing book, and im annoyed that i cant recall the name, about how our brains have evolved slowly and that we're actually, mentally, better equipped to deal with life thousands of years ago than we are with today's current society. There is something ingrained in us that leads us to be defensive, to hate, etc. You have to always look deeper to find out what makes us who we are. Like there is a reason why people are more afraid of a terrorist attack than a car crash even though they are much more likely to die in the car accident. If youre interested in the book, i can find it when i get home. Its fascinating.

So, in short, we are not "clean slates" when we are born. Our society helps develop our DNA so that we can mentally evolve to our surroundings.


See my multiple races of kids in a sandbox example. You are simply wrong. It is not inherent. A weak effort on your bhealf.

lex
06-03-2009, 12:12 PM
This is where we agree. But the American public is hardly willing to spend the funds to make that happen. And short of that, are you willing to live a world were wealth is perpetually White? I mean sure it's unfair for some firefighters, students, etc.; but it's also unfair to be born in poverty.

Many AA programs help poor white kids too. Esp. at the university level. Not so much in the work force.

I have to reject this. As Ive said numerous times. Whites are around 75% of the overall population. Wealth is concentrated into 5% of the population. That leaves a lot of whites unaccounted for where wealth is concerned.

Im actually in the camp that thinks race/racism is a superficial issue and a divisive one at that. The real axe to grind is on the economic/wealth front, where its not hinging on race. Its an oligarchy where wealth is increasingly transferred to power/gvt. The issue of race just marginalizes/makes victims of the unaccounted for whites I described above.

You look at the moving pieces within the discussion of race. But on an even more macro level, race is only a moving piece in a bigger picture.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:12 PM
What you state is no more fact than if I said it was a fact that you're full of it.

So its not a fact that we live in a society where we communicate with other people. Ok, what planet do you live on?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:14 PM
See my multiple races of kids in a sandbox example. You are simply wrong. It is not inherent. A weak effort on your bhealf.

Dude, you are so ****ing uneducated it kills me. I gave you a sample of a book, written by someone who put years of his life into it, disproving your ****ing theory and yuo just reject it because you think youre right. Our brains evolve too asshole, we're not all clean slates. THINK ****ING DEEPER FOR ONCE IN YOUR GODDAMN LIFE

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 12:16 PM
See my multiple races of kids in a sandbox example. You are simply wrong. .


Where do you live? Oh, I see. The state where you are either white, or "other".

BTW: I love the accusation of being a Hitler Youth. That is enough for me. I promise to spend at least one night in jail if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you in person. You have crossed the line of acceptable accusations, you piece of arrogant garbage.

OABB
06-03-2009, 12:16 PM
Oh but it does! and why does it register in my memory? BECAUSE THE AMERICAN MEDIA FOLLOWED THIS HORRENDOUS STORY AND RIGHTFULLY SO.
How can you interpret my previous thread posts about the LACK of coverage for the white murders happening now in Africa with me somehow NOT caring about crime happening against other races is of your own twisted creation.........Can one be racist against oneself? I used to think not, but you and TGN seem to be rather convincing........

It was a joke, dbag. My avatar has been around longer than this thread.

If you want to get into media coverage disparity, we can get into that. I actually have no problem with anything you said so far, ftr...

I disagree a bit with working harder makes you succesful, but I am not sure anymore if this is even your argument.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 12:17 PM
So its not a fact that we live in a society where we communicate with other people. Ok, what planet do you live on?

Go find your initial posts and you'll see they're as subjected and opinionated as any. Facts are facts, what you believe to be truth isn't necessarily fact.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:20 PM
Where do you live? Oh, I see. The state where you are either white, or "other".

BTW: I love the accusation of being a Hitler Youth. That is enough for me. I promise to spend at least one night in jail if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you in person. You have crossed the line of acceptable accusations, you piece of arrogant garbage.

It wouldn't be jail that you'd be spending the night in--and it may not be just 'a night' either :strong:

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:20 PM
I have to reject this. As Ive said numerous times. Whites are around 75% of the overall population. Wealth is concentrated into 5% of the population. That leaves a lot of whites unaccounted for where wealth is concerned.

Im actually in the camp that thinks race/racism is a superficial issue and a divisive one at that. The real axe to grind is on the economic/wealth front, where its not hinging on race. Its an oligarchy where wealth is increasingly transferred to power/gvt. The issue of race just marginalizes/makes victims of the unaccounted for whites I described above.

You look at the moving pieces within the discussion of race. But on an even more macro level, race is only a moving piece in a bigger picture.

But its both. Of course its a socioeconomic issue, but racism did lead to entire groups of people forced into lower socioeconomic bracket. not to mention, you can't ignore other racial stereotypes that go beyond money. They still exist.

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 12:21 PM
It wouldn't be jail that you'd be spending the night in--and it may not be just 'a night' either :strong:

Then carry your ass, you mother****er!

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:22 PM
Go find your initial posts and you'll see they're as subjected and opinionated as any. Facts are facts, what you believe to be truth isn't necessarily fact.

Whatever, argue over semantics if you want, but its true that our surroundings effect our life path. I dont see any way aroundthis. We can do things to increase our chances and decrease them for outcome, but since we live in a society, we must rely on others as well. Like it or not.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:23 PM
Dude, you are so ****ing uneducated it kills me. I gave you a sample of a book, written by someone who put years of his life into it, disproving your ****ing theory and yuo just reject it because you think youre right. Our brains evolve too a-hole, we're not all clean slates. THINK ****ING DEEPER FOR ONCE IN YOUR GODDAMN LIFE

LOL--gave a me a book........How was I supposed to read it being that I am Unedu-ma-cated---that's really a good one!

Spider
06-03-2009, 12:24 PM
Whatever, argue over semantics if you want, but its true that our surroundings effect our life path. I dont see any way aroundthis. We can do things to increase our chances and decrease them for outcome, but since we live in a society, we must rely on others as well. Like it or not.
This is very true ........

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Then carry your ass, you mother****er!

:rofl:

vancejohnson82
06-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Dude, you are so ****ing uneducated it kills me. I gave you a sample of a book, written by someone who put years of his life into it, disproving your ****ing theory and yuo just reject it because you think youre right. Our brains evolve too a-hole, we're not all clean slates. THINK ****ING DEEPER FOR ONCE IN YOUR GODDAMN LIFE

Whats the name of the book? I'm actually interested...

HILife
06-03-2009, 12:27 PM
you had to jerk off your dog to feed the cat? :twitch:

:spit: :spit: :spit:....Here you go kitty, we added some salt you your milk. Drink up.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 12:28 PM
LOL--gave a me a book........How was I supposed to read it being that I am Unedu-ma-cated---that's really a good one!
Education is not the same thing as literacy, you schmuck.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 12:28 PM
Whatever, argue over semantics if you want, but its true that our surroundings effect our life path. I dont see any way aroundthis. We can do things to increase our chances and decrease them for outcome, but since we live in a society, we must rely on others as well. Like it or not.

I'm not disagreeing with you but it's definitely not fact.

And maybe the environment that is perpetuating this is an environment where children are told on the way out of the womb that their race will make them fail and that they can never succeed without handouts from the white man.

Tell these kids that if they work hard, they can be the next president. They can be on the Supreme Court. They can be a CEO. But no... we have to emphasize that they need handouts. They need a headstart. They could never make it on merit alone.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:30 PM
This is very true ........

umm--that's not true--this is what he said previously:

Posted by SonOfLe-loLang
This is a pretty naive view of the world. We are a society (every society is) that is based on your circumstance. One cannot be successful without a lot of things around them, beyond their control, going their way. You can increase your own chances by doing certain things, but people who grow up underprivledged with inherent bigotry towards certainly have it a lot harder. Where you came from has tons to do with who you are and what you can be

Bigotry is not inherent.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 12:33 PM
Bigotry is not inherent.For you, it obviously is.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 12:34 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree. I read this amazing book, and im annoyed that i cant recall the name, about how our brains have evolved slowly and that we're actually, mentally, better equipped to deal with life thousands of years ago than we are with today's current society. There is something ingrained in us that leads us to be defensive, to hate, etc. You have to always look deeper to find out what makes us who we are. Like there is a reason why people are more afraid of a terrorist attack than a car crash even though they are much more likely to die in the car accident. If youre interested in the book, i can find it when i get home. Its fascinating.

So, in short, we are not "clean slates" when we are born. Our society helps develop our DNA so that we can mentally evolve to our surroundings.

Le Lo You are getting on my nerves. You have attacked me in multiple posts with no provocation other than disagreeing with what I said. You would never do this to my face.

As to your amazing book. How could one even actually prove that? It is not like he is sampling Brains from a 1000 years ago or interviewing Bronze age humans.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 12:41 PM
a-hole, was i giving anyone excuses? No, i was simply stating fact. Last time i checked society, business, EVERYTHING is an interconnected web. With constant communication, nearly every act is a result of your surroundings. I'm simply stating fact that your circumstance plays a much bigger role in your development than you realize. Hell, Malcolm Gladwell just recently wrote an entire BOOK on this subject.

This "i make my own luck" is complete bull****. Under your theory, everyone who works really hard is also successful. Simply not true.

Hard Work must be coupled with good decisions. This is the Key to success. Luck does not exist.

I hire a guy who works really really hard. Up early, working till the job is done. He is also 6k upside down on his car and drinks to much. He will never be successful if you work hard making bad decisions.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:46 PM
LOL--gave a me a book........How was I supposed to read it being that I am Unedu-ma-cated---that's really a good one!

i asked you if you wanted the title, but then you just told me i was wrong. Youre ignorant

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:48 PM
Whats the name of the book? I'm actually interested...

ill find it when i get home...the book is a slog, but its real interesting

Spider
06-03-2009, 12:50 PM
Hard Work must be coupled with good decisions. This is the Key to success. Luck does not exist.

I hire a guy who works really really hard. Up early, working till the job is done. He is also 6k upside down on his car and drinks to much. He will never be successful if you work hard making bad decisions.

Sure luck exist ...... I have used a **** load of it so far

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:50 PM
Le Lo You are getting on my nerves. You have attacked me in multiple posts with no provocation other than disagreeing with what I said. You would never do this to my face.

As to your amazing book. How could one even actually prove that? It is not like he is sampling Brains from a 1000 years ago or interviewing Bronze age humans.

Sorry if i offended you, youre right i wouldnt to your face. this is my bad.

But yes, the brain evolves, just like our body does to fit our surroundings. If you threw a bunch of humans in the water and made them live there for thousands of years, eventually we'd probably grow gills. Same sort of thing with brains...thinking patterns, instincts are a result of the body best equipping itself to society. But evolution moves a lot slower than society. So maybe in 30,000, humans would learn better how to live with one another in our current world instead of havingthings like war and genocide.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:53 PM
For you, it obviously is.

This is precisely what is so frustrating about you PC drones

I make the statement that whites are being murdered in Africa right now and we are seeing more articles about racist epithets in a soccer game than we have about those killings and the fact that our PC press has let this type of travesty come to fruition--AND I am being painted as a racist? I don't get it............Where did I say that we should not cover racist incidents that happen towards blacks? I didn't--I simply stated the hypocrisy that our media tends to show when bypassing the action of murder against whites for some verbal racial epithets made by whites ........

But I am racist........that's all you have to say.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 12:55 PM
i asked you if you wanted the title, but then you just told me i was wrong. Youre ignorant

It is WRONG! your book's theme is refuted EVERY DAY in playgrounds across America..........

And if your books theme was correct, then we are ALL predispositioned to be racist--so integration is a wasted failure. Good point...Yet I am the racist.........

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 12:59 PM
It is WRONG! your book's theme is refuted EVERY DAY in playgrounds across America..........

And if your books theme was correct, then we are ALL predispositioned to be racist--so integration is a wasted failure. Good point...Yet I am the racist.........

Oh my god, you are such a ****ing moron who just never ever listens. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Last timei checked, our brains dont stop developing at 4.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:00 PM
This is precisely what is so frustrating about you PC drones

I make the statement that whites are being murdered in Africa right now and we are seeing more articles about racist epithets in a soccer game than we have about those killings and the fact that our PC press has let this type of travesty come to fruition--AND I am being painted as a racist? I don't get it............Where did I say that we should not cover racist incidents that happen towards blacks? I didn't--I simply stated the hypocrisy that our media tends to show when bypassing the action of murder against whites for some verbal racial epithets made by whites ........

But I am racist........that's all you have to say.

No, i think he's calling your ignorant.

Spider
06-03-2009, 01:02 PM
It is WRONG! your book's theme is refuted EVERY DAY in playgrounds across America..........

And if your books theme was correct, then we are ALL predispositioned to be racist--so integration is a wasted failure. Good point...Yet I am the racist.........

you are full of **** , I dont care what color you are , you will notice anyone different then you .......

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:02 PM
It is WRONG! your book's theme is refuted EVERY DAY in playgrounds across America..........

And if your books theme was correct, then we are ALL predispositioned to be racist--so integration is a wasted failure. Good point...Yet I am the racist.........

I didnt say racism necessarily, moron. I implying the inability to deal with eachother on a functional level...which racism is a result of

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Oh my god, you are such a ****ing moron who just never ever listens. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Last timei checked, our brains dont stop developing at 4.

So it's really nature, not nuture. So are blacks & latinos predisposed to committing more violent crimes? Or is it just WHITE MALE OPPRESSIVENESS that is inherent and develops when our testes drop........you are so full of BS

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Sorry if i offended you, youre right i wouldnt to your face. this is my bad.

But yes, the brain evolves, just like our body does to fit our surroundings. If you threw a bunch of humans in the water and made them live there for thousands of years, eventually we'd probably grow gills. Same sort of thing with brains...thinking patterns, instincts are a result of the body best equipping itself to society. But evolution moves a lot slower than society. So maybe in 30,000, humans would learn better how to live with one another in our current world instead of havingthings like war and genocide.

I have no doubt the Brain Evolves. But how can any author say the things you quoted. He has no Pre-Now Brains or people to study. It is purely Conjecture on what he thinks. War and Genocide have purposes. That is why people do them. If you are a Muslim who believes all should bow to Allah. But you can not Rationally convince people what is the next best way?

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 01:04 PM
It is WRONG! your book's theme is refuted EVERY DAY in playgrounds across America..........

Seriously? do you not have kids? did you not go to school? Kids can say some of the most racist and hateful things at a really young age....

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:04 PM
So it's really nature, not nuture. So are blacks & latinos predisposed to committing more violent crimes? Or is it just WHITE MALE OPPRESSIVENESS that is inherent and develops when our testes drop........you are so full of BS

Im done with you....youre a fool who probably never thinks past the surface.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Seriously? do you not have kids? did you not go to school? Kids can say some of the most racist and hateful things at a really young age....

And they learn those words from their PARENTS. It is NOT INHERENT. Thanks for adding to my point..........

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:08 PM
I have no doubt the Brain Evolves. But how can any author say the things you quoted. He has no Pre-Now Brains or people to study. It is purely Conjecture on what he thinks. War and Genocide have purposes. That is why people do them. If you are a Muslim who believes all should bow to Allah. But you can not Rationally convince people what is the next best way?

Its not purely conjecture, though of course its speculative..but thats true of any psychological/sociological study dealing with the past. And yes, war has purposes as does religion, but lets think even deeper than that. What causes the inclination to go to war and the inclination for humans to gravitate towards religion? As i mentioned before, why are people generally more afraid of a terrorist attack or even a plane crash than an automobile accident or cancer, even though the latter is much more likely to kill you. Our thought process and instincts, our visceral reactions are all still based on something...and that something has something to do with "society," "humanity" from long ago. I know its a lot to wrap the mind around, but theres a ton of truth in it.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 01:09 PM
you are full of **** , I dont care what color you are , you will notice anyone different then you .......

My Parents tell a Funny story of me as a Child. I grew up in rural Wyoming where there are no Black People. I actually remember when the first black kid came to my school. Anyway once on a trip to WA we staid with a friend in some sort of Commune. I was sub 4 years old. Anyway there was a black kid there and we played together all the time. But his Mom did not like me because I kept rubbing his head. ( I assume because it felt different than mine). My parents asked me if I noticed anything different about him but I was oblivious. Although I do have memories of his Mom not letting him play with me anymore. That was my first experience with Racism.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Im done with you....youre a fool who probably never thinks past the surface.

You cannot have it both ways.......nice try. Thanks for playing.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:12 PM
you are full of **** , I dont care what color you are , you will notice anyone different then you .......

You and I are VERY different--and it is plenty noticeable.......even on a message board.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Its not purely conjecture, though of course its speculative..but thats true of any psychological/sociological study dealing with the past. And yes, war has purposes as does religion, but lets think even deeper than that. What causes the inclination to go to war and the inclination for humans to gravitate towards religion? As i mentioned before, why are people generally more afraid of a terrorist attack or even a plane crash than an automobile accident or cancer, even though the latter is much more likely to kill you. Our thought process and instincts, our visceral reactions are all still based on something...and that something has something to do with "society," "humanity" from long ago. I know its a lot to wrap the mind around, but theres a ton of truth in it.

I've often heard it said that people are more afraid of public speaking than death so it could be interpreted to mean they'd rather be in the coffin than giving the eulogy.

I think that's just people accepting some things as risks of life but some things that we just aren't used to encountering. What's your point with this?

Spider
06-03-2009, 01:13 PM
You and I are VERY different--and it is plenty noticeable.......even on a message board.

yeah , you are an idiot . But i dont hold against you ............... Much

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:13 PM
You cannot have it both ways.......nice try. Thanks for playing.

YOU DONT ****ING LISTEN! And the funny thing is you honestly think youre right. I dont know why i let people like you raise my blood pressure and cause me stress. There will always be assholes in the world.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Its not purely conjecture, though of course its speculative..but thats true of any psychological/sociological study dealing with the past. And yes, war has purposes as does religion, but lets think even deeper than that. What causes the inclination to go to war and the inclination for humans to gravitate towards religion? As i mentioned before, why are people generally more afraid of a terrorist attack or even a plane crash than an automobile accident or cancer, even though the latter is much more likely to kill you. Our thought process and instincts, our visceral reactions are all still based on something...and that something has something to do with "society," "humanity" from long ago. I know its a lot to wrap the mind around, but theres a ton of truth in it.

People are afraid of Terroist Attacks because they are on TV. They are scary and all over the news. A snake charmer will be more afraid of alligators than Cobras. Even though he is much more likely to get bit by a Cobra. I was a Beekeeper for years. I am more afraid of getting bit by a Rattlesnake than going into anafilactic Shock from a beesting. If people were as fearful of the mundane that will likely kill them as they are to things that won't there would be no society.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:15 PM
But I am racist........that's all you have to say.
The belief that the reason there's a disproportionate nonwhites that live in poverty is do to their lack of self discipline is the very definition of latent racism.

That, and you're not very gentlemanly about any of this; you invite insults.

sisterhellfyre
06-03-2009, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure I buy this. That's not how evolution works, anyways. I think certain emotional dispositions can be hard wired, but cultural and psychological development of the brain (for most humans) trumps biology tenfold.

(There's been recent research on mice which indicates that physical changes to brain structure due to environmental influences can be passed on to subsequent generations which are NOT subject to the same influences. At one time this "inherited change" theory was discredited and dismissed under the name of Lamarckism, but it seems there may be some substance to it after all.)

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:18 PM
I've often heard it said that people are more afraid of public speaking than death so it could be interpreted to mean they'd rather be in the coffin than giving the eulogy.

I think that's just people accepting some things as risks of life but some things that we just aren't used to encountering. What's your point with this?

I dont think its as simple as "people accepting risks." There's something about dying communally and in grand fashion that scares people more than an accident/cancer. Its why a mild earthquake in california is news in NYC even though there were no casualties. Its why we let one terrorist attack in NYC change our entire foriegn policy. Its just an interesting observation about our current society.

Sorry, i think we got off on a bit of a tangent. The whole point of this was about the brain evolving slower then society, which ill-equips for dealing with current society. And racism and hate in general is a result of this. Even look at this bored, there's more venom spit on this board, people are awful to each other to prove some sort of weird dominance (myself included attimes). Why? Who the **** knows, its in our DNA.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:18 PM
The belief that the reason there's a disproportionate nonwhites that live in poverty is do to their lack of self discipline is the very definition of latent racism.

That, and you're not very gentlemanly about any of this; you invite insults.

Are you going to argue that blacks are multiple times more likely to commit murders than whites?

When you have such a high portion of your population in jail and another significant portion with a record... who is to blame when those things inhibit their futures?

Or are the crimes staged?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:18 PM
(There's been recent research on mice which indicates that physical changes to brain structure due to environmental influences can be passed on to subsequent generations which are NOT subject to the same influences. At one time this "inherited change" theory was discredited and dismissed under the name of Lamarckism, but it seems there may be some substance to it after all.)I don't doubt that studies would find that--though it is interesting that environmental has discernible biological effects. The thing is that it's highly unlikely that something useful would get passed on, it falls under the same odd rules of evolution.

Spider
06-03-2009, 01:18 PM
(There's been recent research on mice which indicates that physical changes to brain structure due to environmental influences can be passed on to subsequent generations which are NOT subject to the same influences. At one time this "inherited change" theory was discredited and dismissed under the name of Lamarckism, but it seems there may be some substance to it after all.)

i believe this 100% , I dont hit my kids , I shelter them from violence , I never fight in front of them , yet I see alot of aggression in my older kids .......They dont know about my past .......

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:20 PM
The belief that the reason there's a disproportionate nonwhites that live in poverty is do to their lack of self discipline is the very definition of latent racism.

That, and you're not very gentlemanly about any of this; you invite insults.

My belief is that generational poverty is derived from a lack of discipline--in previous posts I have noted from the 'trailer parks of WV (or Wyoming where Spider is from) to the ghettos of LA...........I never singled out non whites as being particular to this trait--just GENERATIONAL POOR. You are making the inference that because a larger % of black and Latinos relative to their total population lives in poverty--that somehow my statement is racist---that is only in your depraved liberal head.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:21 PM
I dont think its as simple as "people accepting risks." There's something about dying communally and in grand fashion that scares people more than an accident/cancer. Its why a mild earthquake in california is news in NYC even though there were no casualties. Its why we let one terrorist attack in NYC change our entire foriegn policy. Its just an interesting observation about our current society.

Sorry, i think we got off on a bit of a tangent. The whole point of this was about the brain evolving slower then society, which ill-equips for dealing with current society. And racism and hate in general is a result of this. Even look at this bored, there's more venom spit on this board, people are awful to each other to prove some sort of weird dominance (myself included attimes). Why? Who the **** knows, its in our DNA.

No it's not, it's in our minds. If you take the child of a KKK member and let the Obamas raise it from birth... are you saying it would have dreams at night of lynching the only parents it has ever known?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:21 PM
People are afraid of Terroist Attacks because they are on TV. They are scary and all over the news. A snake charmer will be more afraid of alligators than Cobras. Even though he is much more likely to get bit by a Cobra. I was a Beekeeper for years. I am more afraid of getting bit by a Rattlesnake than going into anafilactic Shock from a beesting. If people were as fearful of the mundane that will likely kill them as they are to things that won't there would be no society.

Again, this is a really surface viewpoint of what im trying to convey. WHY is terrorism spread over TV, WHY does it scare people, WHY is there panic. Its something hard wired in us overtime.

Not to mention, fear of catastrophe (no matter how improbable) is not new and was around long before television.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Are you going to argue that blacks are multiple times more likely to commit murders than whites?

When you have such a high portion of your population in jail and another significant portion with a record... who is to blame when those things inhibit their futures?

Or are the crimes staged?The statistic doesn't matter nearly as muhc as the cause for the statistic. Are you implying that Black people are inherently more likely to commit murder. If that's the case, that's a racist belief as well, on par with eugenics.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:22 PM
The belief that the reason there's a disproportionate nonwhites that live in poverty is do to their lack of self discipline is the very definition of latent racism.

That, and you're not very gentlemanly about any of this; you invite insults.

Then what is the REASON? Your answer is WHITE RACISM--even though whites live in pvoverty as well----My answer is a lack of discipline--whcih is applicable without limit to race-You, who is so quick to point out 'latent racism' are actually racist yourself.

alkemical
06-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Sorry if i offended you, youre right i wouldnt to your face. this is my bad.

But yes, the brain evolves, just like our body does to fit our surroundings. If you threw a bunch of humans in the water and made them live there for thousands of years, eventually we'd probably grow gills. Same sort of thing with brains...thinking patterns, instincts are a result of the body best equipping itself to society. But evolution moves a lot slower than society. So maybe in 30,000, humans would learn better how to live with one another in our current world instead of havingthings like war and genocide.

i disagree, i think society is a reflection of evolution.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:23 PM
My belief is that generational poverty is derived from a lack of discipline--in previous posts I have noted from the 'trailer parks of WV (or Wyoming where Spider is from) to the ghettos of LA...........I never singled out non whites as being particular to this trait--just GENERATIONAL POOR. You are making the inference that because a larger % of black and Latinos relative to their total population lives in poverty--that somehow my statement is racist---that is only in your depraved liberal head.So why are their disproportionate number of nonwhites that are poor?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:24 PM
No it's not, it's in our minds. If you take the child of a KKK member and let the Obamas raise it from birth... are you saying it would have dreams at night of lynching the only parents it has ever known?

Dude, im talking bigger picture here, not specifics. I'm talking about what gives us inclinations to racism and hate...not the direct cause of it which happens when you get into the specifics. What is it about our brains that fears the "other" and why we act the way we do.

Our current environment certainly plays a role in our development...absolutely. But our environment works with our already hardwired brains. And obviously there are tons of anomolies, im not saying everyone thinks the same (obviously not true), but speaking in generalities.

Bronx33
06-03-2009, 01:24 PM
Again, this is a really surface viewpoint of what im trying to convey. WHY is terrorism spread over TV, WHY does it scare people, WHY is there panic. Its something hard wired in us overtime.

Not to mention, fear of catastrophe (no matter how improbable) is not new and was around long before television.


It's called ratings and TV has zero remorse or standards and has zero restraint to achieve it.

alkemical
06-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Again, this is a really surface viewpoint of what im trying to convey. WHY is terrorism spread over TV, WHY does it scare people, WHY is there panic. Its something hard wired in us overtime.

Not to mention, fear of catastrophe (no matter how improbable) is not new and was around long before television.

It's not that terrorism is hard-wired to create fear - it's the use of fear itself in using more of the reptillian part of the brain. It's used to short circuit the thinking in process in people and go with fight/flight.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:26 PM
The statistic doesn't matter nearly as muhc as the cause for the statistic. Are you implying that Black people are inherently more likely to commit murder. If that's the case, that's a racist belief as well, on par with eugenics.

So you completely discount patterns because you don't like what they suggest?

And I've said numerous times that it's the mentality not the person nor the race that is the cause of the problems. If you put a black child of a drug dealing murderer in a home with a respectable white family, he'd be just fine.

And for those ready to jump, if you put the son of a black drug dealing murderer in a respectable black family, he'd still be fine. I used the first example simply for its contrast.

sisterhellfyre
06-03-2009, 01:26 PM
I don't doubt that studies would find that--though it is interesting that environmental has discernible biological effects. The thing is that it's highly unlikely that something useful would get passed on, it falls under the same odd rules of evolution.

(That's exactly the point, PF: the physical changes arising from the environmental influences are *not* necessarily beneficial. At least some of them would, in fact, be harmful to the health of the mouse species as a whole if they became widespread. That doesn't mean the changes can't be passed on.

We may like to think so, but evolution is not biased in any way toward passing only positive changes to subsequent generations. The research study I saw, however, was reporting only on observations and implications for one small population of mice in a highly controlled laboratory environment. It's probably way premature to speculate on how this apparent mechanism of inheritance may apply for other species and conditions.)

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:26 PM
i disagree, i think society is a reflection of evolution.

Well, sure i think there's a give and a take. I suppose this is even kind of a chicken/egg argument, but as society develops and the environment around us develops, our brains do adapt. But we evolve to best suit our surrounds (i guess its easier to understand when thinking about physical evolution, but it applies to mental as well).

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
It's not that terrorism is hard-wired to create fear - it's the use of fear itself in using more of the reptillian part of the brain. It's used to short circuit the thinking in process in people and go with fight/flight.

I think we're actually arguing a similar point, perhaps im not articulating myself correctly. I'm talking about where that general fear comes from.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
Then what is the REASON? Your answer is WHITE RACISM.
Thats a simplification I don't buy. It's more due to negligence (a form of latent racism) than it is to do with out right racism. But the historical circumstances that have deprived nonwhites of opportunities still linger. It's complicated, and I'm not sure your willing to listen and learn, here, and you'd have to in order to understand. Footsteps has tried explaining it numerous times in various threads.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
It's called ratings and TV has zero remorse or standards and has zero restraint to achieve it.

I know, but think deeper. Why does it get ratings...its because people are scared of that. Its not like the newsmakers are really influencing society...they are apart of it and are afraid of the same **** the rest of us are.

Bronx33
06-03-2009, 01:31 PM
I know, but think deeper. Why does it get ratings...its because people are scared of that. Its not like the newsmakers are really influencing society...they are apart of it and are afraid of the same **** the rest of us are.


YA ya ya they take advantage of the sheep.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:31 PM
So you completely discount patterns because you don't like what they suggest?

And I've said numerous times that it's the mentality not the person nor the race that is the cause of the problems. If you put a black child of a drug dealing murderer in a home with a respectable white family, he'd be just fine.

And for those ready to jump, if you put the son of a black drug dealing murderer in a respectable black family, he'd still be fine. I used the first example simply for its contrast.No, I don't discount the pattern, but the reasons the pattern exists are complicated. And the only way it will change is if we begin to see it as our problem rather than their problem.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:31 PM
So why are their disproportionate number of nonwhites that are poor?

B/c of a lack of role models and discipline in those communities--which lead to a higher teenage birth rate, more juvenile arrests and a common lack of respect for authority. Strange how, in the ghettos of America, we consistently find children walking the streets reciting Shakespeare and practicing math problems with chalk on the streets. yet for some reason, they are unable to escape their impoverishment.......Military schools are the solution to provide discipline and instill a work ethic to those who are not provided that from home. It's the only way--live without discipline, die without dignity..........

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:32 PM
YA ya ya they take advantage of the sheep.

Again, they are just playing on something that's already there. If the news organizations got together and decided that they'd tell people to kill cute fluffy bunnies simply because they were cute animals, i dont think people would rush out and do it. Perhaps this is a **** analogy, but i hope my point comes across.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:33 PM
Dude, im talking bigger picture here, not specifics. I'm talking about what gives us inclinations to racism and hate...not the direct cause of it which happens when you get into the specifics. What is it about our brains that fears the "other" and why we act the way we do.

Our current environment certainly plays a role in our development...absolutely. But our environment works with our already hardwired brains. And obviously there are tons of anomolies, im not saying everyone thinks the same (obviously not true), but speaking in generalities.

There is no inclination except that we hear about it every day throughout our lives.

I'm not racist at all but I definitely resent not being afforded the same opportunities that someone who might've been more privileged than I will get.

For every black recipient of a scholarship awarded to "even out the pool" I could probably find you a white person who had equal or worse circumstances. Is it fair that one will be assisted while the other will still be accused of being overprivileged and racist for his resentment?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:34 PM
B/c of a lack of role models and discipline in those communitiesOK, why are there a lack of role models and discipline in those communities? What conditions occurred to deprive these communities of such?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:35 PM
There is no inclination except that we hear about it every day throughout our lives.

I'm not racist at all but I definitely resent not being afforded the same opportunities that someone who might've been more privileged than I will get.

For every black recipient of a scholarship awarded to "even out the pool" I could probably find you a white person who had equal or worse circumstances. Is it fair that one will be assisted while the other will still be accused of being overprivileged and racist for his resentment?

What's your point? I'm not arguing about fairness or whatnot. And we hear about it everyday in our lives because its a concern we have. What causes the concern. I'm talking big picture here and you keep giving me specifics

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:35 PM
(That's exactly the point, PF: the physical changes arising from the environmental influences are *not* necessarily beneficial. At least some of them would, in fact, be harmful to the health of the mouse species as a whole if they became widespread. That doesn't mean the changes can't be passed on.

We may like to think so, but evolution is not biased in any way toward passing only positive changes to subsequent generations. The research study I saw, however, was reporting only on observations and implications for one small population of mice in a highly controlled laboratory environment. It's probably way premature to speculate on how this apparent mechanism of inheritance may apply for other species and conditions.)

Evolution actually does only perpetuate passing on good changes as an accumulation of bad changes will eventually kill off the carriers of the changes. Basic evolutionary theory.

Bronx33
06-03-2009, 01:35 PM
Again, they are just playing on something that's already there. If the news organizations got together and decided that they'd tell people to kill cute fluffy bunnies simply because they were cute animals, i dont think people would rush out and do it. Perhaps this is a **** analogy, but i hope my point comes across.



It does and that's exactly why a get my (news) for selected sources my wife turns on fox news or any other big news outlet and i start complaining right away until she turns it ;D

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:37 PM
It does and that's exactly why a get my (news) for selected sources my wife turns on fox news or any other big news outlet and i start complaining right away until she turns it ;D

Smart man:)

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:38 PM
Evolution actually does only perpetuate passing on good changes as an accumulation of bad changes will eventually kill off the carriers of the changes. Basic evolutionary theory.
That's over the long haul; that's not the case from one generation to another.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:38 PM
Evolution actually does only perpetuate passing on good changes as an accumulation of bad changes will eventually kill off the carriers of the changes. Basic evolutionary theory.

Agreed. Though society (or any circumstance) can change faster than evolution...so what might have been a positive, might actually turn out to be a negative.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:39 PM
OK, why are there a lack of role models and discipline in those communities? What conditions occurred to deprive these communities of such?

B/c of the welfare state and AA laden culture that a repentant white American MALE Power establishment made in hopes of remedying 200+ years of ACTUAL RACISM. Not to mention a fierce Black Pride that sees some blacks who have succesfully broken free of the chains of poverty as being 'too white like' and 'uncle toms'........

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:39 PM
I know, but think deeper. Why does it get ratings...its because people are scared of that. Its not like the newsmakers are really influencing society...they are apart of it and are afraid of the same **** the rest of us are.

People are always infatuated and terrified of the unknown. Remember when the first terror alert change happened and everyone was stocking up on survival supplies and duct tape? After 2 or 3 times of the same stuff, people were turning the channel when it came on. It's only a fear because it's new, exciting, and unknown.

See the same scenario for any war that has ever dragged on or any other scenario that people have had to actually pay attention to more than once or twice.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:42 PM
B/c of the welfare state and AA laden culture that a repentant white American MALE Power establishment made in hopes of remedying 200+ years of ACTUAL RACISM. Not to mention a fierce Black Pride that sees some blacks who have succesfully broken free of the chains of poverty as being 'too white like' and 'uncle toms'........Wait, you're not an admitted racist. Because I'm flabbergasted at the intellectual dishonesty here. I mean that's gibberish you just wrote.

Ha! "The reason there are no Black role models is because of Black Pride." It's scary that you could even come up with that.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:42 PM
People are always infatuated and terrified of the unknown. Remember when the first terror alert change happened and everyone was stocking up on survival supplies and duct tape? After 2 or 3 times of the same stuff, people were turning the channel when it came on. It's only a fear because it's new, exciting, and unknown.

See the same scenario for any war that has ever dragged on or any other scenario that people have had to actually pay attention to more than once or twice.

I agree with you to a point. But the question is why they fear the nebulous unknown even if the risks of the unknown event happening are real low and will probably have no effect on their lives. Its something hardwired in the way we think and react. There are plenty of unknown things that don't scare people, but some really take hold.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:44 PM
What's your point? I'm not arguing about fairness or whatnot. And we hear about it everyday in our lives because its a concern we have. What causes the concern. I'm talking big picture here and you keep giving me specifics

But your big picture is just what you want to see. Can blacks in Ohama claim racism because blacks in Los Angeles are? Does a single instance of a white man being ignorant towards a black man make the whole white race racist and ignorant? Unless you're caught up in hypotheticals, the specifics are all that matter. If we eliminate racism on a specific level, would racism not cease to exist? It can never cease when you continue to live racism in hypothetical dream worlds where every white man carries a whip.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:47 PM
Wait, you're not an admitted racist. Because I'm flabbergasted at the intellectual dishonesty here. I mean that's gibberish you just wrote.

Ha! "The reason there are no Black role models is because of Black Pride." It's scary that you could even come up with that.

Remember when Jesse Jackson was caught on tape cussing Obama after Obama told the black youth to start being more responsible? Obama was being a role model and giving advice to the youth and Jackson resented him for it, called him condescending or whatever.

If a white man said what Obama said that day, racist cards would've been pulled from every available pocket.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:48 PM
But your big picture is just what you want to see. Can blacks in Ohama claim racism because blacks in Los Angeles are? Does a single instance of a white man being ignorant towards a black man make the whole white race racist and ignorant? Unless you're caught up in hypotheticals, the specifics are all that matter. If we eliminate racism on a specific level, would racism not cease to exist? It can never cease when you continue to live racism in hypothetical dream worlds where every white man still carries a whip.

OK, maybe im doing a real poor job of explaining myself, i'll fully admit that, but youre STILL talking specifics and i'm talking about general things in our brain that incline us to react in certain ways in certain situations. Racism is just one off-shoot of this. In this case, in what I'm talking about right now, the specifics are just results of the general way our brains work. They are our proof.

If race didn't exist, lets say we were all white, i'm sure something else would replace it to create hate because...humans have a certain inclination to express dominance over others. Where does this come from? Not sure, but its probably something that happened thousands of years ago and honed itself overtime.

When people tell me religion has ruined the world, i often say that if religion didn't exist, humans would find something else to seperate themselves...its just in our nature.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:49 PM
I agree with you to a point. But the question is why they fear the nebulous unknown even if the risks of the unknown event happening are real low and will probably have no effect on their lives. Its something hardwired in the way we think and react. There are plenty of unknown things that don't scare people, but some really take hold.

But we could go all day on these little scenarios, they have nothing to do with anything racial. People are more scared of shark attacks than falling airplanes but statistically more likely to be killed by an airplane. Doesn't make them inclined to be a racist, just makes them irrational in some of their fears.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:51 PM
Wait, you're not an admitted racist. Because I'm flabbergasted at the intellectual dishonesty here. I mean that's gibberish you just wrote.

Ha! "The reason there are no Black role models is because of Black Pride." It's scary that you could even come up with that.

It was ONE of the reasons I cited.....hence the term 'uncle tom'.........Let me provide your answer "Those racist, oppressive white males like BF7!"

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:52 PM
Remember when Jesse Jackson was caught on tape cussing Obama after Obama told the black youth to start being more responsible? Obama was being a role model and giving advice to the youth and Jackson resented him for it, called him condescending or whatever.

If a white man said what Obama said that day, racist cards would've been pulled from every available pocket.

/facepalm

The sidesteps the issue of why there aren't enough role models. You guys are making no effort to understand how history still lingers in the present.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:55 PM
But we could go all day on these little scenarios, they have nothing to do with anything racial. People are more scared of shark attacks than falling airplanes but statistically more likely to be killed by an airplane. Doesn't make them inclined to be a racist, just makes them irrational in some of their fears.

ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:55 PM
OK, maybe im doing a real poor job of explaining myself, i'll fully admit that, but youre STILL talking specifics and i'm talking about general things in our brain that incline us to react in certain ways in certain situations. Racism is just one off-shoot of this. In this case, in what I'm talking about right now, the specifics are just results of the general way our brains work. They are our proof.

If race didn't exist, lets say we were all white, i'm sure something else would replace it to create hate because...humans have a certain inclination to express dominance over others. Where does this come from? Not sure, but its probably something that happened thousands of years ago and honed itself overtime.

When people tell me religion has ruined the world, i often say that if religion didn't exist, humans would find something else to seperate themselves...its just in our nature.


OK, with that I can agree. We will always fight over something. It's usually more based on greed though than based on a natural inclination to hate. Accumulation has been the downfall of man, not a natural trigger to hate a certain color. Whites have fought whites in wars and blacks have enslaved blacks. To look to the skin color for justification is overly simplistic and ignorant.

For years, Jews and some white races were enslaved as well. Were they hated for their race? Are some whites not poor to this day when some blacks have riches?

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:55 PM
/facepalm

The sidesteps the issue of why there aren't enough role models. You guys are making no effort to understand how history still lingers in the present.


And with apologists and enablers such as yourself, the problem will continue to fester...........I have provided my answer to why there are not enough minority role models and a potential solution--Military schools that provide 3 meals a day, school uniforms and discipline. Al you continue to do is race bait...........

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 01:56 PM
It was ONE of the reasons I cited.....hence the term 'uncle tom'.........Let me provide your answer "Those racist, oppressive white males like BF7!"You didn't cause the problem, but you sure are in the way of fixing it.

If a racist culture cause a swath of people to be poor, and when all the overt racists die out, and we still let those people remain poor, are we not still culpable, isn't that latent racism?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 01:57 PM
OK, with that I can agree. We will always fight over something. It's usually more based on greed though than based on a natural inclination to hate. Accumulation has been the downfall of man, not a natural trigger to hate a certain color. Whites have fought whites in wars and blacks have enslaved blacks. To look to the skin color for justification is overly simplistic and ignorant.

For years, Jews and some white races were enslaved as well. Were they hated for their race? Are whites not poor to this day when some blacks have riches?

OK, fine...if you want to replace greed with hate, im with that. But greed is an natural inclination as well. Why do we horde...where did that come from?

And i agree to a point. As said, if we were all white, people would still be excluded. But someone of darker skin, especially in the middle ages, whatever, were seen as threats because of their physical differences.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 01:57 PM
ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

Gotcha... I thought you were implying that we feared terrorism because we feared Muslims on some deeper level. I overly connected the post with the thread theme.

TailgateNut
06-03-2009, 01:59 PM
--Military schools that provide 3 meals a day, school uniforms and discipline. Al you continue to do is race bait...........


Let's just segregate them. Put them in an enviroment where we can mold them as we see fit. Take them from their parents and raise them in a "CAMP".
That'll fix "their problem".
What an ass!
I hope you don't reproduce.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 01:59 PM
OK, maybe im doing a real poor job of explaining myself, i'll fully admit that, but youre STILL talking specifics and i'm talking about general things in our brain that incline us to react in certain ways in certain situations. Racism is just one off-shoot of this. In this case, in what I'm talking about right now, the specifics are just results of the general way our brains work. They are our proof.

If race didn't exist, lets say we were all white, i'm sure something else would replace it to create hate because...humans have a certain inclination to express dominance over others. Where does this come from? Not sure, but its probably something that happened thousands of years ago and honed itself overtime.

When people tell me religion has ruined the world, i often say that if religion didn't exist, humans would find something else to seperate themselves...its just in our nature.

Le-Lo I really think you are over thinking this. People are afraid of what they don't understand. End of story. From Adam and Eve to Obama and McCain. Okams Razor. It is not some deep mystery. People Fear don't fear cars because they get it. They do fear Airplanes because they don't understand why it stays in the sky.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 01:59 PM
ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

So you have a visceral reaction to people who do not look like you? And you have the audacity to call someone else a racist? the nerve.........

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:00 PM
/facepalm

The sidesteps the issue of why there aren't enough role models. You guys are making no effort to understand how history still lingers in the present.

History lingers because some wont let it go. We should study history and learn from history but not forever relive history.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:03 PM
You didn't cause the problem, but you sure are in the way of fixing it.

If a racist culture cause a swath of people to be poor, and when all the overt racists die out, and we still let those people remain poor, are we not still culpable, isn't that latent racism?

Let 'those people' remain poor? Let's approach this from a different angle--since you refuse to acknowledge a commonality among generational pverty NO MATTER the color, which is a lack of discipline/work ethic.

Since AA and welfare programs have not worked what would you suggest be the key to unlocking them from the cycles of poverty?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:04 PM
History lingers because some wont let it go. We should study history and learn from history but not forever relive history.It lingers because we are our parents children and the institutions of our culture are often ageless.

Try to tell me that history still isn't lingering in Israel. They should just let it go. Maybe the US should let go it's grudge against these terrrorist, all in the past, right? :roll

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:05 PM
Le-Lo I really think you are over thinking this. People are afraid of what they don't understand. End of story. From Adam and Eve to Obama and McCain. Okams Razor. It is not some deep mystery. People Fear don't fear cars because they get it. They do fear Airplanes because they don't understand why it stays in the sky.

<sigh> youre not wrapping your head around what i'm saying. I'll admit when i read read and discussed this ad nauseum, i didn't either. It's not me "overthinking it" its the process of trying to understand, on its most basic level, why we are the way we are. Yes, people fear what they dont understand, but there's a reason people fear what they don't understand.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 02:05 PM
So you have a visceral reaction to people who do not look like you? And you have the audacity to call someone else a racist? the nerve.........

http://www.cyberspacei.com/englishwiz/library/friends/images/carnegie.jpg

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:05 PM
So you have a visceral reaction to people who do not look like you? And you have the audacity to call someone else a racist? the nerve.........

What the **** are you talking about?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Let 'those people' remain poor? Let's approach this from a different angle--since you refuse to acknowledge a commonality among generational pverty NO MATTER the color, which is a lack of discipline/work ethic.

Since AA and welfare programs have not worked what would you suggest be the key to unlocking them from the cycles of poverty?Sure; I understand your point about generational poverty. But white people were never slaves; so their families rarely started out with zero education and opportunity.

I don't know why I bother to discuss this with you; your not willing to learn.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:07 PM
I hope you don't reproduce.+1

Spider
06-03-2009, 02:08 PM
http://www.cyberspacei.com/englishwiz/library/friends/images/carnegie.jpg

i read this book .......... It paid off for me , I got mad people skills now

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:09 PM
What the **** are you talking about?

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang
ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

See above you moron....... 1st you used the term 'inherent' now you use 'visceral' -If we listened to you, we all would have no hope for ending racism as it is 'inherently visceral' according to you...........

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:10 PM
It lingers because we are our parents children and the institutions of our culture are often ageless.

Try to tell me that history still isn't lingering in Israel. They should just let it go. Maybe the US should let go it's grudge against these terrrorist, all in the past, right? :roll

It's the current aspirations of the Palestinians to regain the holy lands that were once there; they're not merely trying to resolve a grudge.

And the hatred for Arabs that existed immediately after 9/11 has definitely subsided. If there was a way to ensure there would NEVER be another terrorist attack from those people, the war would be called off. We didn't go to war when the USS Cole was hit... nor the embassies... nor the Marine Barracks... It was when the heart of America was at risk that the prevention of another attack became top priority.

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 02:10 PM
<sigh> youre not wrapping your head around what i'm saying. I'll admit when i read read and discussed this ad nauseum, i didn't either. It's not me "overthinking it" its the process of trying to understand, on its most basic level, why we are the way we are. Yes, people fear what they dont understand, but there's a reason people fear what they don't understand.

OK I see. You just keep using analogies that detour my thought process. Although this does not fit your premise that people 1000 years ago would be better adapted to today's society than we are. The learning uptake has increased exponentially. Fear of the unknown is slowing and being replaced my curiosity. (complete Speculation based on life experience.)

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:12 PM
+1

Too late--4 of me roaming this earth---but the good news is I don't believe that Racism is inherent or visceral, so there is still hope for my children to be able to live in a non race based-free and equal society........

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Sure; I understand your point about generational poverty. But white people were never slaves; so their families rarely started out with zero education and opportunity.

I don't know why I bother to discuss this with you; your not willing to learn.

I will respectfully disagree with this. Every creed has been slaves at one point in history or another.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang
ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

See above you moron....... 1st you used the term 'inherent' now you use 'visceral' -If we listened to you, we all would have no hope for ending racism as it is 'inherently visceral' according to you...........

Ummm, we'll never eliminate racism, you ****ing retarded asshole. We can get better with it, which we have, but it'll never go away. And if you think it will, you live in a ****ing dream world...and apparently you do. It must be nice, asshole. And apparently, society as a whole, does have visceral reaction towards an "other" I dont know what world you grew up in that yuo don't see this. Of course not ALL people are like this, there are always anomolies...and in a population of a few billion, youre going to know many of them.

sisterhellfyre
06-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Evolution actually does only perpetuate passing on good changes as an accumulation of bad changes will eventually kill off the carriers of the changes. Basic evolutionary theory.

Uh-huh, agreed. But over how long a timeline?

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang
ooh, i see our problem. My comments about catastrophe weren't meant as a direct correlation to racism. It was a sub example of mental evolution. The reason i brought it up was to discuss visceral reactions to certain things, and why we actually react the way we do...which i believe hate/racism to be an off-shoot of.

See above you moron....... 1st you used the term 'inherent' now you use 'visceral' -If we listened to you, we all would have no hope for ending racism as it is 'inherently visceral' according to you...........
He's talking about like fear of wild animals and how that correlates to our modern culture. You didn't do very well in school, did you?

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:13 PM
Sure; I understand your point about generational poverty. But white people were never slaves; so their families rarely started out with zero education and opportunity.

I don't know why I bother to discuss this with you; your not willing to learn.

I asked you for your solution and what did you provide? nothing--you have none except that it is the repressive white man's fault.........

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:14 PM
Sure; I understand your point about generational poverty. But white people were never slaves; so their families rarely started out with zero education and opportunity.

I don't know why I bother to discuss this with you; your not willing to learn.

OK, I propose a resolution then to put this all to rest. Anyone who was a slave or the direct child of a slave should have special considerations made.

Everyone else has had just as much chance to build themselves as my hypothetical family that could've arrived in the US after the abolition of slavery with absolutely nothing.

That would resolve this whole circle of poverty thing, right? Whites that arrived from Europe with the clothes on their backs had just as much nothing as 3rd or 4th generation decendants of slaves, right?

Otherwise you have to imply that whites are still just holding down the blacks. Hopefully we don't have to go there as "the man" has been mocked sufficiently for its idiocy, I think.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:15 PM
OK I see. You just keep using analogies that detour my thought process. Although this does not fit your premise that people 1000 years ago would be better adapted to today's society than we are. The learning uptake has increased exponentially. Fear of the unknown is slowing and being replaced my curiosity. (complete Speculation based on life experience.)

actually, i think i said like 10,000 years ago. And that is just a theory, obviously, but again, im talking about what causes our base visceral reactions and inclinations...not necessarily curious throught, etc. We are more educated than we were then, obviously, and have figured out ways to nuture ourselves mentally, but the visceral and instinctual reactions are def. still there. We still have wars...etc. Alien forces don't make hate, we do it to ourselves.

footstepsfrom#27
06-03-2009, 02:15 PM
These guys refuse to see it that way. They want to believe that their success is by their own grit and has no context beyond their belief that they try harder than those who don't have their success.
Bingo. Couple that with the fact that finding a single example to prove the exception to the rule offers a comfort level that soothes the conscience and makes it easy to dismiss what the eyes clearly tell us is happening.

It's the matrix.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:17 PM
He's talking about like fear of wild animals and how that correlates to our modern culture. You didn't do very well in school, did you?

You would be shocked at my profession. And apparently you did not do too well in reading comprehension---He compares racism to those 'other visceral senses' that we have 'LIKE FEAR OF WILD ANIMALS'--and says that racism is an off shoot of them----I say that it is hogwash--yet I am the racist........nice try. Son of butler -bynote states that he feels that racism is inherent and visceral yet I am painted as a racist--you hypocrits......

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Ummm, we'll never eliminate racism, you ****ing retarded a-hole. We can get better with it, which we have, but it'll never go away. And if you think it will, you live in a ****ing dream world...and apparently you do. It must be nice, a-hole. And apparently, society as a whole, does have visceral reaction towards an "other" I dont know what world you grew up in that yuo don't see this. Of course not ALL people are like this, there are always anomolies...and in a population of a few billion, youre going to know many of them.

Racism with go away the instant we are attacked my Aliens. We just need someone else to hate.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:17 PM
I will respectfully disagree with this. Every creed has been slaves at one point in history or another.Yeah, I know my family still feels the effects from the Roman Empire! Come on, we are only five generations from American Slavery. We are thousands of generations from white dudes being slaves.

Pseudofool
06-03-2009, 02:18 PM
You would be shocked at my profession. God, I hope you're not a teacher.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:19 PM
Ummm, we'll never eliminate racism, you ****ing retarded a-hole. We can get better with it, which we have, but it'll never go away. And if you think it will, you live in a ****ing dream world...and apparently you do. It must be nice, a-hole. And apparently, society as a whole, does have visceral reaction towards an "other" I dont know what world you grew up in that yuo don't see this. Of course not ALL people are like this, there are always anomolies...and in a population of a few billion, youre going to know many of them.

3 of my bosses, including the highest I see in a 6 month time frame, are black. If racism is absolutely never to cease, does that mean I'm being racially repressed?

I don't know your race but you really sound like someone that would try to hold on to this card far after its expiration and, my personal opinion, half of the reason racism is perpetrated to this day. Ignorant isolated racist populations being the other half of the equation. That ignorance is usually only encountered by those venturing through those isolated areas. That leaves those who can't let it go as the primarily responsible parties for the greater civilization's racial boundaries.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Ummm, we'll never eliminate racism, you ****ing retarded a-hole. We can get better with it, which we have, but it'll never go away. And if you think it will, you live in a ****ing dream world...and apparently you do. It must be nice, a-hole. And apparently, society as a whole, does have visceral reaction towards an "other" I dont know what world you grew up in that yuo don't see this. Of course not ALL people are like this, there are always anomolies...and in a population of a few billion, youre going to know many of them.


Well of course it will never go away in your eyes, since you believe that racism is an inherent and visceral reaction---talk about blatant racism. So you feel scared when encountering black people? Or nauseated? What are your symptoms? I am curious since I DO NOT HAVE A VISCERAL REACTION TO OTHER RACES.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:21 PM
Racism with go away the instant we are attacked my Aliens. We just need someone else to hate.

hahah that might be true...well itll be less of a problem perhaps.

lex
06-03-2009, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I know my family still feels the effects from the Roman Empire! Come on, we are only five generations from American Slavery. We are thousands of generations from white dudes being slaves.

Its not about the fact that whites were at one point enslaved through conquest. Where this topic is concerned, its more about the fact that blacks through physical differences have faced greater barriers to assimilation. There have been a lot of waves of immigrants coming from europe. All of them have been assimilated faster than blacks because of physical differences and also to being more educated in their home country. But physical difference is something racism definitions typically hinge upon. In Brazil, they actually have over 40 different categories for skin color.

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 02:24 PM
Everyone else has had just as much chance to build themselves as my hypothetical family that could've arrived in the US after the abolition of slavery with absolutely nothing.

Are you aware the Civil Rights Act was only passed 1 generation ago? Most of our parents lived through that time.

It takes longer than 1 generation to undo the effects of hundreds of years of segregation, lack of education, under-education, and the effects urban poverty can have on the psyche of a culture.

More and more minorities are coming out of that cycle, but it will take longer than 1 generation. Some of the ham-fisted ideas (like AA) have serious problems, but there are alot of good things it provides too. An all or nothing approach would have never allow much of the progress that has happened to occur the way it did.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:24 PM
3 of my bosses, including the highest I see in a 6 month time frame, are black. If racism is absolutely never to cease, does that mean I'm being racially repressed?

I don't know your race but you really sound like someone that would try to hold on to this card far after its expiration and, my personal opinion, half of the reason racism is perpetrated to this day. Ignorant isolated racist populations being the other half of the equation. That ignorance is usually only encountered by those venturing through those isolated areas. That leaves those who can't let it go as the primarily responsible parties for the greater civilization's racial boundaries.

Again, specifics. Humans have a general fear of an other, what they dont understand, what they don't relate to. So yes, this manifests itself in racism. Racism exists on thousands of levels. I'm not claiming blacks can't have upward mobility and the more our society progresses, the easier it will be. But don't think it'll go away, the racism will still exist, just on a different level. Perhaps in 10,000 years, as our brains evolve, it wont anymore (so i guess i shouldnt say never), but if you're expecting it to completely go away in 100 years, youre dreaming.

I keep talking big picture here.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Well of course it will never go away in your eyes, since you believe that racism is an inherent and visceral reaction---talk about blatant racism. So you feel scared when encountering black people? Or nauseated? What are your symptoms? I am curious since I DO NOT HAVE A VISCERAL REACTION TO OTHER RACES.

No, youre just a ****ing asshole that can't see beyond whats in front of him.

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 02:26 PM
Well of course it will never go away in your eyes, since you believe that racism is an inherent and visceral reaction---talk about blatant racism. So you feel scared when encountering black people? Or nauseated? What are your symptoms? I am curious since I DO NOT HAVE A VISCERAL REACTION TO OTHER RACES.

:rofl:

I'm not sure anyone believes that. Practically every post you make on this forum is about how the white man is being held down by the liberal media.

Garcia Bronco
06-03-2009, 02:27 PM
but it's also unfair to be born in poverty.

.


No it's not unfair. It didn't happen on accident. Their parents did it on purpose.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Its not about the fact that whites were at one point enslaved through conquest. Where this topic is concerned, its more about the fact that blacks through physical differences have faced greater barriers to assimilation. There have been a lot of waves of immigrants coming from europe. All of them have been assimilated faster than blacks because of physical differences and also to being more educated in their home country. But physical difference is something racism definitions typically hinge upon. In Brazil, they actually have over 40 different categories for skin color.

OK, so are you ready to admit then that starting with nothing as former slaves cannot be solely responsible for the issues the black community faces today?

We obviously can't convince everyone here what the reason for the problems of the black community is but we can exclude some. Can we establish that if it were merely material possessions, that would've been resolved by now?

rugbythug
06-03-2009, 02:29 PM
Yeah, I know my family still feels the effects from the Roman Empire! Come on, we are only five generations from American Slavery. We are thousands of generations from white dudes being slaves.

Your Numbers are way off. More like 4 and 40-60. But as long as you allow someone the use of a crutch they will always limp.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:30 PM
:rofl:

I'm not sure anyone believes that. Practically every post you make on this forum is about how the white man is being held down by the liberal media.

Just trying to get some of you PC drones to think outside of the box........

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:31 PM
No, youre just a ****ing a-hole that can't see beyond whats in front of him.

I am still waiting for you to describe your 'INHERENT VISCERAL' reaction to people who don't look like you. Please oblige us with your answer..........

lex
06-03-2009, 02:33 PM
OK, so are you ready to admit then that starting with nothing as former slaves cannot be solely responsible for the issues the black community faces today?

We obviously can't convince everyone here what the reason for the problems of the black community is but we can exclude some. Can we establish that if it were merely material possessions, that would've been resolved by now?


I dont know what youre driving at. And Id rather not play along if this conversation is about waiting me to admit something in a way you find agreeable when Ive made several posts recently saying I dont hold a firm position on this issue.

But it seems that saying its not about material possessions undermines the argument that its about a lack of wealth. If youre saying their problems arent about a lack of wealth/possessions, Im not sure where youre going with it. I think its probably more accurate to say its not one thing but, moreover, something thats layered.

Garcia Bronco
06-03-2009, 02:34 PM
This is precisely what is so frustrating about you PC drones

I make the statement that whites are being murdered in Africa right now and we are seeing more articles about racist epithets in a soccer game than we have about those killings and the fact that our PC press has let this type of travesty come to fruition--AND I am being painted as a racist? I don't get it............Where did I say that we should not cover racist incidents that happen towards blacks? I didn't--I simply stated the hypocrisy that our media tends to show when bypassing the action of murder against whites for some verbal racial epithets made by whites ........

But I am racist........that's all you have to say.

Because they cant wrap their mind about what you are saying. they know you are right, but don't want you to be right. So they will label you a racist.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:36 PM
I am still waiting for you to describe your 'INHERENT VISCERAL' reaction to people who don't look like you. Please oblige us with your answer..........

Slavery, religious persecution, the american bigotry towards islam...i could go on and on...where the **** have you been? People have a natural reaction to view an other and deem themselves dominant to it. The way youre talking, it seems you think aliens give us these negative emotions...we do it to ourselves because its ingrained. This obviously comes from somewhere and in 10,000 years when our brains evolve, it might cease to be a problem. Now something else might replace it, but you have this inability to think outside yourself. Its called being close minded.

lex
06-03-2009, 02:37 PM
Because they cant wrap their mind about what you are saying. they know you are right, but don't want you to be right. So they will label you a racist.

I dont know if he's right but the reaction he's getting does reveal that theyre not comfortable with something that doesnt get the PC rubberstamp.

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:39 PM
Again, specifics. Humans have a general fear of an other, what they dont understand, what they don't relate to. So yes, this manifests itself in racism. Racism exists on thousands of levels. I'm not claiming blacks can't have upward mobility and the more our society progresses, the easier it will be. But don't think it'll go away, the racism will still exist, just on a different level. Perhaps in 10,000 years, as our brains evolve, it wont anymore (so i guess i shouldnt say never), but if you're expecting it to completely go away in 100 years, youre dreaming.

I keep talking big picture here.

Well, I commend you on keeping things civil in my direction throughout this but I'm at the conclusion that you're as upset with the concept of racism as the occurence of it. You think it can't cease and I'm telling you that I live an environment where there is no racism and that through anecdotal scenarios it can be proven that racism is obviously not a natural tendency nor inherent in anyone. It's a learned feature and any sort of submersion in an environment will completely clear the fear of "what we don't know". As long as minorities continue to band together, that isolation will continue and perpetuate this issue if you think that's the justification.

The ignorant fear what they don't know but give some of us enough credit that, though I may have never lived under the same roof as a black person, I know they pose no threat to me. I fear a white thug just as I would a black one though. As a fact not to be even debated, there are more blacks than whites in the urban centers where violent crimes are most common.

To fear something without using your judgement or to have no fear of a scenario without using your judgement are both equally ignorant. I don't see my fear or aprehension of inner city thugs (black or white) as racism but it's another of the problems that must be solved and that some apparently perceive as racism.

In the end, there's nothing ingrained in our minds that destine us to failure any more than there is something ingrained in the minds of impoverished inner city youth to sell drugs, rob people, or kill someone in cold blood.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:41 PM
I dont know if he's right but the reaction he's getting does reveal that theyre not comfortable with something that doesnt get the PC rubberstamp.

I stopped reading what he was saying as I cannot equate racism towards whites with racism towards minorities....and its silly to think they are on the same plane.

lex
06-03-2009, 02:41 PM
Slavery, religious persecution, the american bigotry towards islam...i could go on and on...where the **** have you been? People have a natural reaction to view an other and deem themselves dominant to it. The way youre talking, it seems you think aliens give us these negative emotions...we do it to ourselves because its ingrained. This obviously comes from somewhere and in 10,000 years when our brains evolve, it might cease to be a problem. Now something else might replace it, but you have this inability to think outside yourself. Its called being close minded.


Earlier I posted link to a story from 1998 about the Sierra Club acknowledging the necessity to curb immigration so to reduce over population. People denounced it as racist. Its the Sierra Club...hardly the clan, yet based on the reaction, youd think they were. But thats how it is when you dont conform to this generalized notion of political correctness.

And this is kind of similar to what has happened here.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Slavery, religious persecution, the american bigotry towards islam...i could go on and on...where the **** have you been? People have a natural reaction to view an other and deem themselves dominant to it. The way youre talking, it seems you think aliens give us these negative emotions...we do it to ourselves because its ingrained. This obviously comes from somewhere and in 10,000 years when our brains evolve, it might cease to be a problem. Now something else might replace it, but you have this inability to think outside yourself. Its called being close minded.

Apparently, I must not be human because I do not have a visceral reaction to people who do not look like me. I am still waiting for you to describe your inherent visceral reaction---do you get nauseated around minorities? Do your hands tingle? Do you start to sweat, with an increased heartrate? Do you get nervous? What is this inherent visceral response that you have towards minorities? Personally, I think that you may just have anxiety disorder.......

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:47 PM
Are you aware the Civil Rights Act was only passed 1 generation ago? Most of our parents lived through that time.

It takes longer than 1 generation to undo the effects of hundreds of years of segregation, lack of education, under-education, and the effects urban poverty can have on the psyche of a culture.

More and more minorities are coming out of that cycle, but it will take longer than 1 generation. Some of the ham-fisted ideas (like AA) have serious problems, but there are alot of good things it provides too. An all or nothing approach would have never allow much of the progress that has happened to occur the way it did.

The people who lived through that time are almost exclusively out of the workforce and anyone who knows that time now knows of it through word of mouth and 2nd hand. It's been highly illegal to use anyone's race against them in my lifetime, I've been living for 20 some odd years not able to say words that black people next to me could say out of fear of being deemed racist. Do you not see the upper hand flipped in this scenario? We're ready to move on if some will let us.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:48 PM
I stopped reading what he was saying as I cannot equate racism towards whites with racism towards minorities....and its silly to think they are on the same plane.

At least you are finally honest. I feel as though racism is disgusting and reprehensible and knows no racial exclusions......It is propagated by blacks, whites, latinos and asians---but to others like Son of Butler bynote---racism truly is an almost one way street--with only whites capable of being the perpetrators of it--and seldom if never the victims of it..........

That One Guy
06-03-2009, 02:50 PM
Earlier I posted link to a story from 1998 about the Sierra Club acknowledging the necessity to curb immigration so to reduce over population. People denounced it as racist. Its the Sierra Club...hardly the clan, yet based on the reaction, youd think they were. But thats how it is when you dont conform to this generalized notion of political correctness.

And this is kind of similar to what has happened here.

Great post. You are definitely walking the line in this thread and not just in denial of your stance. I'm impressed.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:54 PM
Well, I commend you on keeping things civil in my direction throughout this but I'm at the conclusion that you're as upset with the concept of racism as the occurence of it. You think it can't cease and I'm telling you that I live an environment where there is no racism and that through anecdotal scenarios it can be proven that racism is obviously not a natural tendency nor inherent in anyone. It's a learned feature and any sort of submersion in an environment will completely clear the fear of "what we don't know". As long as minorities continue to band together, that isolation will continue and perpetuate this issue if you think that's the justification.

The ignorant fear what they don't know but give some of us enough credit that, though I may have never lived under the same roof as a black person, I know they pose no threat to me. I fear a white thug just as I would a black one though. As a fact not to be even debated, there are more blacks than whites in the urban centers where violent crimes are most common.

To fear something without using your judgement or to have no fear of a scenario without using your judgement are both equally ignorant. I don't see my fear or aprehension of inner city thugs (black or white) as racism but it's another of the problems that must be solved and that some apparently perceive as racism.

In the end, there's nothing ingrained in our minds that destine us to failure any more than there is something ingrained in the minds of impoverished inner city youth to sell drugs, rob people, or kill someone in cold blood.


I think no matter what we're going to have to agree to disagree on some points, i do think that humans have a natural inclination to fear an "other." There is tons of proof of this and i don't think this is something learned by today as much as something ingrained in us to view and fear the other. If we want to disagree on this, fine. And though you personally live in an area where you don't SEE racism, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I grew up in nyc and now live in LA...two cultural melting pots and i still see racism all around me. Is it as debilitating as it once was? Of course not...but it definitely is still there.

And i never claimed anything ingrained in us destined us to fail. I said society moves quicker than mental evolution so we are not best equipped to deal with today's society. I also dont pretend to be an expert in this, but this is what i believe. I think there are certain things that are unavoidable until our brains adapt. We can get better at it and mask it to some certain degree, but the fear of the "other" is there.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:56 PM
At least you are finally honest. I feel as though racism is disgusting and reprehensible and knows no racial exclusions......It is propagated by blacks, whites, latinos and asians---but to others like Son of Butler bynote---racism truly is an almost one way street--with only whites capable of being the perpetrators of it--and seldom if never the victims of it..........

I can't deal with you. Just believe what you want to believe. Youre a victim to racism, great. Now go **** yourself

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 02:56 PM
The people who lived through that time are almost exclusively out of the workforce and anyone who knows that time now knows of it through word of mouth and 2nd hand. It's been highly illegal to use anyone's race against them in my lifetime, I've been living for 20 some odd years not able to say words that black people next to me could say out of fear of being deemed racist. Do you not see the upper hand flipped in this scenario? We're ready to move on if some will let us.

I am talking about the next generation of kids who have been raised by their uneducated or undereducated parents, who are told that things will be hard for them as they get older.

Whether it's the truth or not, there are alot of people who were raised in poverty and ignorance, and use the "white man holding me down" phrase because its been ingrained in them since they were kids by the people who it actually happened to.

Just saying that those laws were passed and everything should change immediately is not logical. I believe it will take at least another generation before many of these people get older and realize it's not as bad as their parents said... and it will gradually be less and less of an issue.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 02:57 PM
I can't deal with you. Just believe what you want to believe. Youre a victim to racism, great. Now go **** yourself

If racism is tolerated against any group, we all are victims...........and I am still waiting for your inherent visceral response to minorities....

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I am talking about the next generation of kids who have been raised by their uneducated or undereducated parents, who are told that things will be hard for them as they get older.

Whether it's the truth or not, there are alot of people who were raised in poverty and ignorance, and use the "white man holding me down" phrase because its been ingrained in them since they were kids by the people who it actually happened to.

Just saying that those laws were passed and everything should change immediately is not logical. I believe it will take at least another generation before many of these people get older and realize it's not as bad as their parents said... and it will gradually be less and less of an issue.

Agreed...it was get gradually less and less as society and we evolve...but to fully eradicate it? We're talking multiple and multiple generations.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 03:00 PM
If racism is tolerated against any group, we all are victims...........and I am still waiting for your inherent visceral response to minorities....

i ****in gave it to you, you asshole...go back and look. Look no further how much of america views islam and those crazy brown people in the middle east. And my whole point was a visceral repsonse not to understand and tolerate an "other." One off shoot of this is race. You know know, seriously, just go **** yourself. I cant deal with people like you.

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 03:05 PM
Agreed...it was get gradually less and less as society and we evolve...but to fully eradicate it? We're talking multiple and multiple generations.

We won't ever fully eradicate it. Human nature is to find differences with other people and identify ourselves with certain groups. Limiting the harmful effects can be done...and I think we're doing a decent job at that (despite broncofan7's rabid belief that white people are being held down)

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 03:07 PM
i ****in gave it to you, you a-hole...go back and look. Look no further how much of america views islam and those crazy brown people in the middle east. And my whole point was a visceral repsonse not to understand and tolerate an "other." One off shoot of this is race. You know know, seriously, just go **** yourself. I cant deal with people like you.

I don't have a visceral response to 'those crazy brown people in the middle east'-(nice terminology by the way)-so it must not be inherent-but you claimed that it was..no? And I am still waiting to hear YOUR VISCERAL INHERENT response---you stated 'much of America'--pre judging them as racists AGAINST people who are not white---see how biased you are? You cannot admit to you own VISCREAL and INHERENT racism--yet you casually call OTHER white people as having an inherent visceral' response to 'brown people'...........You have been brainwashed to the point of no return..........

You are the very definition of a self hating person.....

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 03:10 PM
We won't ever fully eradicate it. Human nature is to find differences with other people and identify ourselves with certain groups. Limiting the harmful effects can be done...and I think we're doing a decent job at that (despite broncofan7's rabid belief that white people are being held down)

Held down? NO. I have showed an example of media bias and instead of others agreeing that there was media bias demonstrated in thise case, they instead chose to attack me as being 'racist'--all b/c the subject fell outside of their PC comfort zone........

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 03:13 PM
We won't ever fully eradicate it. Human nature is to find differences with other people and identify ourselves with certain groups. Limiting the harmful effects can be done...and I think we're doing a decent job at that (despite broncofan7's rabid belief that white people are being held down)

Maybe, maybe not..im talking about 10,000 years from now as the brain evolves to fit our current society...perhaps tolerance is something generations then (if earth is still around) will have as second nature. Impossible to predict really because intolerance is all we know.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 03:18 PM
I don't have a visceral response to 'those crazy brown people in the middle east'-(nice terminology by the way)-so it must not be inherent-but you claimed that it was..no? And I am still waiting to hear YOUR VISCERAL INHERENT response---you stated 'much of America'--pre judging them as racists AGAINST people who are not white---see how biased you are? You cannot admit to you own VISCREAL and INHERENT racism--yet you casually call OTHER white people as having an inherent visceral' response to 'brown people'...........You have been brainwashed to the point of no return..........

You are the very definition of a self hating person.....

Wow, you read a whole lot into when i was speaking big picture generality. I guess in my own experience, while i don't feel hate or anxiety towards any one group, i guess i do view them as different for me and figure their upbringing was different than mine and i tend to ask minorities different questions about their past than i would a white person. Racism isnt specific to hate you know.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 03:34 PM
Wow, you read a whole lot into when i was speaking big picture generality. I guess in my own experience, while i don't feel hate or anxiety towards any one group, i guess i do view them as different for me and figure their upbringing was different than mine and i tend to ask minorities different questions about their past than i would a white person. Racism isnt specific to hate you know.

So you have an inherent instinctual reaction to ask a question? That sounds pretty disingenuous there sir....nice try. I give you an 'E' for effort.......Amazing how you began posting in this thread with the perception that you were 'fighting the good fight against that white racist BF7' only to discover through your own posts that you are in fact the very thing that you were determined to fight against.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-03-2009, 03:41 PM
So you have an inherent instinctual reaction to ask a question? That sounds pretty disingenuous there sir....nice try. I give you an 'E' for effort.......Amazing how you began posting in this thread with the perception that you were 'fighting the good fight against that white racist BF7' only to discover through your own posts that you are in fact the very thing that you were determined to fight against.

You are a ****ing joke, and the funniest part is that you don't even realize it. Not are you incredibly narrow minded and generally disgusting, its your inability to listen that will be your ultimate downfall. I feel bad for your children or anyone that you teach. It's people like you, people who refuse to think, people who refuse to see beyond whats in front of them, that will usher us into the years of idiocracy.

I have no clue what youre even talking about what you've even read of mine. I was never "fighting the good fight" against you. I think youre a tremendous asshole, but I was having a conversation with someone else about the origins of why we think the way we do. You've preverted it into something completely different.

I'm done with you. I have no patience for people like you and this is the last I will write to you.

broncofan7
06-03-2009, 03:46 PM
You are a ****ing joke, and the funniest part is that you don't even realize it. Not are you incredibly narrow minded and generally disgusting, its your inability to listen that will be your ultimate downfall. I feel bad for your children or anyone that you teach. It's people like you, people who refuse to think, people who refuse to see beyond whats in front of them, that will usher us into the years of idiocracy.

I have no clue what youre even talking about what you've even read of mine. I was never "fighting the good fight" against you. I think youre a tremendous a-hole, but I was having a conversation with someone else about the origins of why we think the way we do. You've preverted it into something completely different.

I'm done with you. I have no patience for people like you and this is the last I will write to you.

It's ok--as long as you acknowledge your self hate, that is the 1st step to recovery..... I can make a referral if you'd like.........

Maximus
06-03-2009, 03:54 PM
I think we can all agree that if you look for racism in a situation, you can find it. I can find racism against whites on a daily basis just the same.. if I look hard enough.

Ultimately the question has no answer though, it's all perspective. I see that a large majority of prisoners in this country are black and that will undoubtedly hurt their average standing in society. Blacks, on the other side, see that they're being unfairly targeted and it's not their fault that so many are in jail. It goes round and round.

No, I disagree!!! You can find prejudice but not Racism... I dare you to find racism against white people in America! This is not meant to discount the other part of your post. However, I'm getting pretty tired of the misuse of the term Racism and Racist!

Racism: is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Note the emphasis on the word Superiority.....

Archer81
06-03-2009, 04:10 PM
No, I disagree!!! You can find prejudice but not Racism... I dare you to find racism against white people in America! This is not meant to discount the other part of your post. However, I'm getting pretty tired of the misuse of the term Racism and Racist!

Racism: is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Not the emphasis on the word Superiority.....


Anything said by Farakhan or Reverend Wright.

:Broncos:

Mr.Meanie
06-03-2009, 04:12 PM
You are a ****ing joke, and the funniest part is that you don't even realize it. Not are you incredibly narrow minded and generally disgusting, its your inability to listen that will be your ultimate downfall. I feel bad for your children or anyone that you teach. It's people like you, people who refuse to think, people who refuse to see beyond whats in front of them, that will usher us into the years of idiocracy.

Don't waste your frustration on people like him. He's not trying to debate, he's trying to get a rise out of anyone who will listen to him... and he would never agree with an opposing viewpoint.

Haven't you ever heard the godhatesf*gs family, or the people who were protesting at the funerals of dead soldiers? No matter how much logic or reason you try to throw at them they attack you and will stick to their guns until they die. Luckily they are just fringe elements of our society.

Maximus
06-03-2009, 04:15 PM
Anything said by Farakhan or Reverend Wright.

:Broncos:

Wrong... that would fall under bigotry or prejudice... no superiority talk came from either of them.

Archer81
06-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Wrong... that would fall under bigotry or prejudice... no superiority talk came from either of them.


Uh huh...you really need to see more then a 15 second clip of either man and you will realize how wrong you are.

:Broncos:

Maximus
06-03-2009, 04:26 PM
My Parents tell a Funny story of me as a Child. I grew up in rural Wyoming where there are no Black People. I actually remember when the first black kid came to my school. Anyway once on a trip to WA we staid with a friend in some sort of Commune. I was sub 4 years old. Anyway there was a black kid there and we played together all the time. But his Mom did not like me because I kept rubbing his head. ( I assume because it felt different than mine). My parents asked me if I noticed anything different about him but I was oblivious. Although I do have memories of his Mom not letting him play with me anymore. That was my first experience with Racism.

Was it really Racism...? If it was who displayed the attitude of racial superiority? Your parents or the Black parents?

Maximus
06-03-2009, 04:28 PM
Uh huh...you really need to see more then a 15 second clip of either man and you will realize how wrong you are.

:Broncos:

Ok which one of them said that Black People are Better or superior to white people because we were born better???

Racism: is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

spdirty
06-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Said it before Ill say it again. Everyone needs to just interracially marry and have interracial kids so there isnt anymore "Im white, blah blah blah everyones against me... Im black, blah blah blah everyones against me...Im latino/hispanic/mexican, blah blah blah everyones against me, Im asian blah blah blah everyones against me." In a few generations, all this racial crap will at least be minimized.

Be nice in a few generations to have no more black people, white people, brown people, yellow people, but just people. And to just be identified by what kind of person you are.

But of course its in our nature to be prejudice, hell Im prejudice, if I see a guy that looks like a dork, thatll be my impression of him till Im proven otherwise. See someone who looks like an arrogant ass or some teenage kid that dresses weird, my impression of that kid will be a lil punk ass shlthead, and thatll be the impression Ill have of that person. Just our nature.