A Special thread for Broncofan7

[Spider]

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[TailgateNut]

I wonder if his Mafioso mentality can deal with that. He may blow another gasket.

[Bronx33]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg/300px-Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg

[SJ Bronco]

Don't give this mental rapist a platform guys, he's so not worth it.

[Spider]

Don't give this mental rapist a platform guys, he's so not worth it.

;D I cant resist ****ing with him though ....

[TailgateNut]

;D I cant resist ****ing with him though ....


Don't ya know he's the modern day GodFather. What he says, IS DA TRUTH!:~ohyah!:

[SJ Bronco]

;D I cant resist ****ing with him though ....

I really do understand! Please go on.....

[lex]

What did he say that was so bad in the other thread?

[Bronx33]

Don't give this mental rapist a platform guys, he's so not worth it.


He doesn't know the differences between manures ( that's all i know)

[Spider]

Don't ya know he's the modern day GodFather. What he says, IS DA TRUTH!:~ohyah!:

LOL , I can see him intimidating his gold fish ...........I got an offer you cant refuse

[Spider]

What did he say that was so bad in the other thread?

He said , Lex wasnt a bad guy ........... we cant have that kind of bull****

[SJ Bronco]

He said , Lex wasnt a bad guy ........... we cant have that kind of bull****

LMAO!

[lex]

He said , Lex wasnt a bad guy ........... we cant have that kind of bull****


As much substance as ever.

[Spider]

As much substance as ever.

Thanks for noticing ..........

[SJ Bronco]

Oh come on lex, that was funny.... no one likes the jokes today?

[Bronx33]

Thanks for noticing ..........


One has to really get his hands dirty to make that kinda call.

[lex]

Thanks for noticing ..........


Dont thank me. Thank SJ.

[Spider]

Dont thank me. Thank SJ.

you laughed ......

[broncofan7]

<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2> http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif “To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”


Abraham Lincoln
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[SJ Bronco]

<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2> http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif “To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”


Abraham Lincoln
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uh, ok? Thanks for sharing little buddy...

[Pseudofool]

Is thread an act of reverse racism?

[Pseudofool]

<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2> http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif “To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”


Abraham Lincoln
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To believe the crap that comes out of your mouth is some sort of act of bravery is the very definition of megalomania. It'd be different if the sentiment wasn't being broadcasted all over Clear Channel.

[Spider]

<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2> http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif “To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”


Abraham Lincoln
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4 score and 7 years ago , our forefathers ............Abe Lincoln

[PaintballCLE]

everyone here is racist...........If people are a chiefs or raiders fan........we automatically assume (and 99.99999% correctly) that they are inbred midget porn loving freaks.........so lighten up.

[SJ Bronco]

everyone here is racist...........If people are a chiefs or raiders fan........we automatically assume (and 99.99999% correctly) that they are inbred midget porn loving freaks.........so lighten up.

LOL damn.....:strong:

[broncofan7]

To believe the crap that comes out of your mouth is some sort of act of bravery is the very definition of megalomania. It'd be different if the sentiment wasn't being broadcasted all over Clear Channel.

Well no one else is standing up to the bottom dwellers like you ACTUALfool--

[SJ Bronco]

Bottom dwellers eat more with less effort, and are able to adapt better to their surroundings. Just some national geographic stuff..Continue childlike name calling, don't mind me...

[Pseudofool]

Well no one else is standing up to the bottom dwellers like you ACTUALfool--Who are you standing up for, exactly?

[broncofan7]

Bottom dwellers eat more with less effort, and are able to adapt better to their surroundings. Just some national geographic stuff..Continue childlike name calling, don't mind me...

Too bad your knowledge of aquatic life doesn't translate into legitimate posts in other threads.........

[broncofan7]

Who are you standing up for, exactly?

Everyone who believes that racism is NOT a one way street and who acknowledges the hypocrisy of our 'mainstream' politically correct culture. Go visit the other thread for specifics. And Go Broncos.

[SJ Bronco]

Too bad your knowledge of aquatic life doesn't translate into legitimate posts in other threads.........

wow, such venom. I think I may have been the only person dumb enough to try to speak with you on an intelligent level, and you still couldn't handle it. It always just comes down to this. Maybe at some point you should wonder if it's you not us. Your the only person that seems to be argumentative toward my every thought, whimsical or serious. I wonder, did you go to GW as well? Class of 2004? Maybe it was a trend?

[broncofan7]

wow, such venom. I think I may have been the only person dumb enough to try to speak with you on an intelligent level, and you still couldn't handle it. It always just comes down to this. Maybe at some point you should wonder if it's you not us. Your the only person that seems to be argumentative toward my every thought, whimsical or serious. I wonder, did you go to GW as well? Class of 2004? Maybe it was a trend?


NO I just hate the Sharks......

[SJ Bronco]

Everyone who believes that racism is NOT a one way street and who acknowledges the hypocrisy of our 'mainstream' politically correct culture. Go visit the other thread for specifics. And Go Broncos.

Yes, go read the other thread and tell me where i said that, cause I seem to be "to stupid" to get it. Oh dumb little me. If only you knew whom you were talking to.

[SJ Bronco]

NO I just hate the Sharks......

So do i these days. Damn chokers! You had to bring that up?

[lex]

uh, ok? Thanks for sharing little buddy...

bump

Like I said, "mocking".

[SJ Bronco]

bump

Like I said, "mocking".

I am now. yes. I thought you meant the actual conversation. The convo dies a long time ago my man. I mock him cause he's close minded, not because he's a racist. I have a lot of friends that are racists. I even went to a school that was 50% racist. I got my hair cut by racists often.

[HILife]

I am now. yes. I thought you meant the actual conversation. The convo dies a long time ago my man. I mock him cause he's close minded, not because he's a racist. I have a lot of friends that are racists. I even went to a school that was 50% racist. I got my hair cut by racists often.

Sounds like the good life.

[SJ Bronco]

Sounds like the good life.

yeah, they can cut a mullet like no one I've meet in case I ever want one. For some reason they can shave my head just the way I like it. Like they have shaved heads often before...weird huh?

[HILife]

yeah, they can cut a mullet like no one I've meet in case I ever want one. For some reason they can shave my head just the way I like it. Like they have shaved heads often before...weird huh?

LOL:rofl:

[Atlas]

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I don't know the deal between you and Broncofan7, but that video is hilarious.

[Spider]

I don't know the deal between you and Broncofan7, but that video is hilarious.

;D I never need a reason to single someone out and pick on them :wiggle:

[lex]

I am now. yes. I thought you meant the actual conversation. The convo dies a long time ago my man. I mock him cause he's close minded, not because he's a racist. I have a lot of friends that are racists. I even went to a school that was 50% racist. I got my hair cut by racists often.

Fair enough. But he might be making more of a valid point than people are comfortable admitting. A lot goes into why some stories dont see the light of day...and that cuts both ways.

The problem with such terms is that racist does not have a commonly shared definition. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So, in the end, it basically is a slander more than a word with substantive meaning.

[SJ Bronco]

Fair enough. But he might be making more of a valid point than people are comfortable admitting. A lot goes into why some stories dont see the light of day...and that cuts both ways.

The problem with such terms is that racist does not have a commonly shared definition. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So, in the end, it basically is a slander more than a word with substantive meaning.

yeah, at that point i was just being silly.....

[Bigdawg26]

OH SNAP he went there!!!http://static.flickr.com/99/306570367_4db49e98c7.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bDu7CiZKeG0BXxCjzbkF/SIG=12ammvoao/EXP=1244093499/**http%3A//www.flickr.com/photos/blowfishshoots/306570367/)http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

[Atlas]

;D I never need a reason to single someone out and pick on them :wiggle:

I don't ever want to get on your bad side. THat being said with all the stupid republicans out there I don't see how that can happen.

[Pseudofool]

The problem with such terms is that racist does not have a commonly shared definition. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So, in the end, it basically is a slander more than a word with substantive meaning.While I tend to agree with the logical sentiment here, I'm not so quick to forgive people for losing sight of the historical and cultural context of racism.

While bigotry cuts every which way, we are still not a hundred years from lynching . Nor are we so far from the cyclical poverty created by slavery and the great migration.

White Americans, historically, and I think, culturally, have an advantage in that when they look at the world they often see people that look like themselves, they never feel the taint of racism until they are much older (or are individuate by a specific set of circumstances); nonwhites don't have the privilege of discovering racism (or at least, a keen sense of difference) in adulthood.

All that said, I'm not a fan of affirmative action, and if conservative want it stop, start putting your votes behind politicians who support a real welfare program that diversifies inner cities and mitigates the wealth disparity among the races and the sexes. But the spirit of affirmative action is in the right place, and until there's a substitute you bet your moral bottom dollar I'll support it.

Something else to remember that people too often lose sight of is that everyone works hard. Every parent loves their child. And laziness knows no color. The reasons their is a disproportionate number of nonwhites that are in poverty or even in the lower middle class is because history still lingers in the present, not because of any sense of entitlement or lack of work ethic.

We might all be ******, but some of us are clearly more ****** than others. It takes real courage to acknowledge that. (One must acknowledge the privileges they've been granted as well as the burdens they've overcome)

[penguintheory]

While I tend to agree with the logical sentiment here, I'm not so quick to forgive people for losing sight of the historical and cultural context of racism.

While bigotry cuts every which way, we are still not a hundred years from lynching . Nor are we so far from the cyclical poverty created by slavery and the great migration.

White Americans, historically, and I think, culturally, have an advantage in that when they look at the world they often see people that look like themselves, they never feel the taint of racism until they are much older (or are individuate by a specific set of circumstances); nonwhites don't have the privilege of discovering racism (or at least, a keen sense of difference) in adulthood.

All that said, I'm not a fan of affirmative action, and if conservative want it stop, start putting your votes behind politicians who support a real welfare program that diversifies inner cities and mitigates the wealth disparity among the races and the sexes. But the spirit of affirmative action is in the right place, and until there's a substitute you bet your moral bottom dollar I'll support it.

Something else to remember that people too often lose sight of is that everyone works hard. Every parent loves their child. And laziness knows no color. The reasons their is a disproportionate number of nonwhites that are in poverty or even in the lower middle class is because history still lingers in the present, not because of any sense of entitlement or lack of work ethic.

We might all be ******, but some of us are clearly more ****** than others. It takes real courage to acknowledge that. (One must acknowledge the privileges they've been granted as well as the burdens they've overcome)

Smart post. Nice to see someone whose well-crafted prose belies a somewhat privileged/gifted foundation show some humility.

[lex]

While I tend to agree with the logical sentiment here, I'm not so quick to forgive people for losing sight of the historical and cultural context of racism.

While bigotry cuts every which way, we are still not a hundred years from lynching . Nor are we so far from the cyclical poverty created by slavery and the great migration.

White Americans, historically, and I think, culturally, have an advantage in that when they look at the world they often see people that look like themselves, they never feel the taint of racism until they are much older (or are individuate by a specific set of circumstances); nonwhites don't have the privilege of discovering racism (or at least, a keen sense of difference) in adulthood.

All that said, I'm not a fan of affirmative action, and if conservative want it stop, start putting your votes behind politicians who support a real welfare program that diversifies inner cities and mitigates the wealth disparity among the races and the sexes. But the spirit of affirmative action is in the right place, and until there's a substitute you bet your moral bottom dollar I'll support it.

Something else to remember that people too often lose sight of is that everyone works hard. Every parent loves their child. And laziness knows no color. The reasons their is a disproportionate number of nonwhites that are in poverty or even in the lower middle class is because history still lingers in the present, not because of any sense of entitlement or lack of work ethic.

We might all be ******, but some of us are clearly more ****** than others. It takes real courage to acknowledge that. (One must acknowledge the privileges they've been granted as well as the burdens they've overcome)


Well, in the end, its hard to reconcile whether or not people want equality or whether they want affirmative action. Many may not realize that AA isnt designed to represent equality. Quite the opposite. Its designed to catch up an other group. And so the question also becomes, at whose expense because chances are theyre (as individuals) not responsible for this state of disadvantage.

I thought the University of Michigan LS court case from a few years ago was interesting because a female (another other group) was the plaintiff. But its kind of weird to see partial scores and quotas in play for stuff like this.

[Pseudofool]

Well, in the end, its hard to reconcile whether or not people want equality or whether they want affirmative action. Many may not realize that AA isnt designed to represent equality. Quite the opposite. Its designed to catch up an other group. And so the question also becomes, at whose expense because chances are theyre (as individuals) arent responsible for this state of disadvantage.Huh? I don't mean to be rude, because clearly you're a smart guy; but this doesn't behoove your intelligence. Affirmative action may be a political bandaid created to mirror equality (it's far from the opposite of equality). And, I agree, it's hardly perfect, as I suggested just a couple of posts above, mainly because it lacks a foundational imperative. (Majority culture will always prefer handing out bandaids than actually working hard to make real equality happen, which is far more complicated than AA, and begins with how we fund education, and yes, it means some people have to forgo their *privilege*).

Look, would you rather be a victim of racism your whole life, or a victim of AA a few times in your life (a job app., a college app. etc.)? The pity party over AA is truly pathetic. I mean, it's shameful.

[lex]

Huh? I don't mean to be rude, because clearly you're a smart guy; but this doesn't behoove your intelligence. Affirmative action may be a political bandaid created to mirror equality (it's far from the opposite of equality). And, I agree, it's hardly perfect, as I suggested just a couple of posts above, mainly because it lacks a foundational imperative. (Majority culture will always prefer handing out bandaids than actually working hard to make real equality happen, which is far more complicated than AA, and begins with how we fund education, and yes, it means some people have to forgo their *privilege*).

Look, would you rather be a victim of racism your whole life, or a victim of AA a few times in your life (a job app., a college app. etc.)? The pity party over AA is truly pathetic. I mean, it's shameful.


Like I said, its overt inequality done with the idea in mind of catching up a demographic that has been impoverished and left behind. Some schools affect AA by requiring lower scores for certain races to be admitted. Some schools require quotas that are aimed at this. Equality is the best score gets you in...no quotas and no reduced qualification scores. AA is not that.

And regarding your question, that is a question that wouldnt really apply to the same person. The same person who would be a victim of racism (in this context) would not typically be the same person disadvantaged by AA. So, its not a very effective "either-or" question.

Fortunately for me, while I see and acknowledge arguments both ways, Im able to see that there is no need for me to pick sides.

[Pseudofool]

Like I said, its overt inequality done with the idea in mind of catching up a demographic that has been impoverished and left behind. Some schools affect AA by requiring lower scores for certain races to be admitted. Some schools require quotas that are aimed at this. Equality is the best score gets you in...no quotas and no reduced qualification scores. AA is not that.I agree it's flawed as all apecrapstupidity, but it's *not* the opposite of equality. And it's clearly in the spirit of equality.

Again, until White Americans are willing to face the real problems with poverty and education, you'll have to deal with AA. And count yourself lucky, because right now it seems to me you're feeling entitled to your privilege (it's probably so invisible you can't even identify it). Real reform will be a lot more difficult for privileged White folks to swallow; in part, that's why AA exists, because it's something privileged people can live with--AA really doesn't upset the current cultural hierarchy.

Do we really need to start talking about CEOs and Senators (much less income) to point out the race and sex disparity in our culture? I hope not.

[lex]

I agree it's flawed as all apecrapstupidity, but it's *not* the opposite of equality. And it's clearly in the spirit of equality.

Again, until White Americans are willing to face the real problems with poverty and education, you'll have to deal with AA. And count yourself lucky, because right now it seems to me you're feeling entitled to your privilege (it's probably so invisible you can't even identify it). Real reform will be a lot more difficult for privileged White folks to swallow; in part, that's why AA exists, because it's something privileged people can live with--AA really doesn't upset the current cultural hierarchy.

Do we really need to start talking about CEOs and Senators (much less income) to point out the race and sex disparity in our culture? I hope not.

Well, Ive sort of already told you how I (and many) define equality. In case I wasnt clear before, equality is acknowledging that one pound of bricks is the same as another. Youre free to disagree. But I wouldnt call a white woman who was denied Michigan Law School because of affirmative action pathetic. Nor would I call, weighting admittance in such a way to promote affirmative action equality or necessary. Youre talking about one of the most prestigious law schools in the country. Having admittance weighted evenly doesnt deny anyone an opportunity to make a living as a lawyer.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Having admittance weighted evenly doesnt deny anyone an opportunity to make a living as a lawyer.
The problem with this perspective is that nothing that comes BEFORE this point is even remotely equal, yet we cry foul when the pendulum swings to the other side, however brief it may be. Racism is not just an attitude held by individuals, which obviously can reside on both sides of the color line. Racism in this country is institutional, embeded deeply throughout the entire societal fabric we live in. We are, in effect...living in the matrix, but very few in the majority culture understand this. To those of us who have encountered only the sporadic effects of individual prejudice or witnessed singular events as if they were stand alone aberations, detached from their root causes or foundational underpinnings, it may seem that racism has little to do with us if we're not actively engaged in proffering a prejudicial attitude. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Those of us in the majority culture have been the constant recipients throughout life of unseen advantages we scarcely comprehend, are utterly unaware of and usually refuse to admit even exist.

Take your affirmative action example for the woman in law school; while it may appear the act of balancing the scales and creating level admission requirements without favortism is just and right, the truth is a minority candidate for the position has quite probably lived an entire lifetime of unbalanced opportunity. Each time I hear someone complain about affirmative action, my first question is this; are you equally offended by the fact that black children in your city by a huge majority are exposed to inferior opportunity in every other situation you can list? Or is your concern for a just and balanced approach limited only to the 1% of opportunities where an effort is made to rectify obvious wrongs?

Every facet of this society favors the established majority culture, from education to health care to the justice system. This institutional bias surrounds us daily and permeates every level of our culture subtly and discretely, yet most people are amazingly unaware of it. Our economic system, with its banking and financial services, our access to things most people take for granted...the list of historic inequities has only been addressed through the courts in the last 40 years, while 400 years of accumulated reproach and the residual effects of that still linger. In other words, we can fix this issue in theory, but it exists and florishes in the real world. We have only to trek through inner city neighborhoods and view the horrifying condition of our schools to know that black and Hispanic kids in inner cities have nowhere near the opportunity for a quality education their counterparts in the burbs do.

When we get serious about creating a society that values everyone as our founding document says we were designed to do, and we then prove it with a just allocation of resources and opportunities that demonstrate we actually believe what we say we do, then we can do away with the booster shot provided by affirmative action to those who have gotten the short end of the stick prior to that point.

[broncocalijohn]

Huh? I don't mean to be rude, because clearly you're a smart guy; but this doesn't behoove your intelligence. Affirmative action may be a political bandaid created to mirror equality (it's far from the opposite of equality). And, I agree, it's hardly perfect, as I suggested just a couple of posts above, mainly because it lacks a foundational imperative. (Majority culture will always prefer handing out bandaids than actually working hard to make real equality happen, which is far more complicated than AA, and begins with how we fund education, and yes, it means some people have to forgo their *privilege*).

Look, would you rather be a victim of racism your whole life, or a victim of AA a few times in your life (a job app., a college app. etc.)? The pity party over AA is truly pathetic. I mean, it's shameful.

Say that to the New Haven fire department who had no advancement for an obvious try (by the city) to get blacks up the ranks in the department. When that failed, everyone lost. Let me know how they felt about studying hours on end for a promotion that wasnt going to be theres. That isnt the first story on it as I read one about Montgomery, Alabama fire department went over 28 or so white applicants (more qualified) to get their black choice for captain. When we put safety on the back burner for AA, we have major problems.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I agree it's flawed as all apecrapstupidity, but it's *not* the opposite of equality. And it's clearly in the spirit of equality.

Again, until White Americans are willing to face the real problems with poverty and education, you'll have to deal with AA. And count yourself lucky, because right now it seems to me you're feeling entitled to your privilege (it's probably so invisible you can't even identify it). Real reform will be a lot more difficult for privileged White folks to swallow; in part, that's why AA exists, because it's something privileged people can live with--AA really doesn't upset the current cultural hierarchy.

Do we really need to start talking about CEOs and Senators (much less income) to point out the race and sex disparity in our culture? I hope not.
Exactly. Real reform isn't wanted by most people in the majority culture, and the resulting impact of that would dwarf the miniscule effects of affirmative action.

[broncocalijohn]

Every facet of this society favors the established majority culture, from education to health care to the justice system. This institutional bias surrounds us daily and permeates every level of our culture subtly and discretely, yet most people are amazingly unaware of it. Our economic system, with its banking and financial services, our access to things most people take for granted...the list of historic inequities has only been addressed through the courts in the last 40 years, while 400 years of accumulated reproach and the residual effects of that still linger. In other words, we can fix this issue in theory, but it exists and florishes in the real world. We have only to trek through inner city neighborhoods and view the horrifying condition of our schools to know that black and Hispanic kids in inner cities have nowhere near the opportunity for a quality education their counterparts in the burbs do.

When we get serious about creating a society that values everyone as our founding document says we were designed to do, and we then prove it with a just allocation of resources and opportunities that demonstrate we actually believe what we say we do, then we can do away with the booster shot provided by affirmative action to those who have gotten the short end of the stick prior to that point.


As many of your points are valid ( i erased some) and can be debated, the fact is many opps are wasted on or in the inner city. In LA, the drop out rate is over 50%. One parent families and third or fourth generation welfare is a negative at home. Teachers in the inner city have 25 students and 3 parents show up for parent conferences. How do you address the apathy in those neighborhoods. Yet, there are still students that work hard to excel in school. Every kid still has to do homework and pass tests. Some might have to work 25 hours after school to help the family out but all these scenarios shouldnt be pressed against a student who excels much higher than the inner city student. If equal, then maybe the inner school student gets the nod. Some work harder to make it in the world and that brings a strong work ethic. Punishing those regardless of past racism in society is dangerous and can cause people to have racist thoughts that normally would never have them. Anger should be pushed to who allows it not who it benefits. This is why the community college is important to be affordable for all students as they can make the next step to a four year college.

[footstepsfrom#27]

As many of your points are valid ( i erased some) and can be debated, the fact is many opps are wasted on or in the inner city. In LA, the drop out rate is over 50%. One parent families and third or fourth generation welfare is a negative at home. Teachers in the inner city have 25 students and 3 parents show up for parent conferences. How do you address the apathy in those neighborhoods. Yet, there are still students that work hard to excel in school. Every kid still has to do homework and pass tests. Some might have to work 25 hours after school to help the family out but all these scenarios shouldnt be pressed against a student who excels much higher than the inner city student. If equal, then maybe the inner school student gets the nod. Some work harder to make it in the world and that brings a strong work ethic. Punishing those regardless of past racism in society is dangerous and can cause people to have racist thoughts that normally would never have them. Anger should be pushed to who allows it not who it benefits. This is why the community college is important to be affordable for all students as they can make the next step to a four year college.
This is the perfect example of the kind of thinking I'm referring to. You see trying to rectify bad conditions as "punishment" to someone not receiving the same attention, even though that indiviudal has a lifetime of priviledge associated with nothing more than color and economics by birth and has received thousands of ittle perks unknown elsewhere. This thinking stems from a sense that one group is entitled to something that it has purely on it's own merit...when that is false. What makes opportunity a given for one group and not the other?

Let's start with a question you asked; "How do you address the apathy in those neighborhoods?" You ask this as if it's a rhetorical question...one where the answer is, "We can't." But this is far from true. Start with asking yourself what you would want done if you lived there? Begin with the basics...for every dollar spent in the upscale communites on infrastructure repair, maintenance, economic development, education, city services like parks and recreation...what do you suppose is spent in the urban areas that need it far worse? I can assure you that in most cities it pales in comparison. Why? Because we don't care...very simple...we don't care. Start with the things most obviously causing despair...fix the physical environment first...the terrible condition of city streets, tear down old dilapidated buildings, use city codes to run liquor stores, pawn shops, bars and other kinds of undesirables out of the area. Repair infrastructure, build new schools, develop parks and pour money into attracting economic develpment there just like we do in the burbs or rich areas of town. Use the concept of attracting investment instead of just throwing money at worthless social programs that are often proven failures. There are dozens of innovtative ways of doing this.

Here in Dallas, the north side of town and the downtown business districts receive the vast majority of city project funds, while the south is left to languish in poverty and has to beg for every nickel. This is not an accident...it's because the people of power and influence get things done in their part of town. We should be spending $3 in urban neighborhoods for every $1 we spend in upscale areas simply because they need it worse. For education the insane method of funding public schools that allows public tax money to be broken down and divided into district money pots has to be changed so that nobody gets shafted in what is offered them in the way of educational facilities because of where they live.

You talk about community college as if that's the solution for black kids...why is not the solution for white kids? If it's good enough for one it's good enough for the other. Only it's not good enough...we should be striving to educate ALL kids, not warehouse them in broken down school houses with inferior resources, poorly paid teachers and low expectations. It's true we can't fix every problem immediately but we can begin working on the ones we can fix, which we're not. We are destroying our own future as a nation in the global economic marketplace because we are failing to utilize the vast human talent resources we have in the inner city.

That's not smart.

[broncofan7]

Footsteps and Fool seem to be associating 'white' with privileged where as I associate RICH with privileged. And there-in lies the foundation for their folly.....

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Footsteps and Fool seem to be associating 'white' with privileged where as I associate RICH with privileged. And there-in lies the foundation for their folly.....

Footsteps and fool seem to be capable of an actual, intelligent conversation, filled with more than just sniping from the rafters. Therein lies your folly, bf7.

[broncofan7]

This is the perfect example of the kind of thinking I'm referring to. You see trying to rectify bad conditions as "punishment" to someone not receiving the same attention, even though that indiviudal has a lifetime of priviledge associated with nothing more than color and economics by birth and has received thousands of ittle perks unknown elsewhere. This thinking stems from a sense that one group is entitled to something that it has purely on it's own merit...when that is false. What makes opportunity a given for one group and not the other?

Let's start with a question you asked; "How do you address the apathy in those neighborhoods?" You ask this as if it's a rhetorical question...one where the answer is, "We can't." But this is far from true. Start with asking yourself what you would want done if you lived there? Begin with the basics...for every dollar spent in the upscale communites on infrastructure repair, maintenance, economic development, education, city services like parks and recreation...what do you suppose is spent in the urban areas that need it far worse? I can assure you that in most cities it pales in comparison. Why? Because we don't care...very simple...we don't care. Start with the things most obviously causing despair...fix the physical environment first...the terrible condition of city streets, tear down old dilapidated buildings, use city codes to run liquor stores, pawn shops, bars and other kinds of undesirables out of the area. Repair infrastructure, build new schools, develop parks and pour money into attracting economic develpment there just like we do in the burbs or rich areas of town. Use the concept of attracting investment instead of just throwing money at worthless social programs that are often proven failures. There are dozens of innovtative ways of doing this.

Here in Dallas, the north side of town and the downtown business districts receive the vast majority of city project funds, while the south is left to languish in poverty and has to beg for every nickel. This is not an accident...it's because the people of power and influence get things done in their part of town. We should be spending $3 in urban neighborhoods for every $1 we spend in upscale areas simply because they need it worse. For education the insane method of funding public schools that allows public tax money to be broken down and divided into district money pots has to be changed so that nobody gets shafted in what is offered them in the way of educational facilities because of where they live.

You talk about community college as if that's the solution for black kids...why is not the solution for white kids? If it's good enough for one it's good enough for the other. Only it's not good enough...we should be striving to educate ALL kids, not warehouse them in broken down school houses with inferior resources, poorly paid teachers and low expectations. It's true we can't fix every problem immediately but we can begin working on the ones we can fix, which we're not. We are destroying our own future as a nation in the global economic marketplace because we are failing to utilize the vast human talent resources we have in the inner city.

That's not smart.

and how does this affect whether or not a child comes home and focuses on his academics? How does this affect whether or not a parent pushes their children in the right direction and takes an active role in instilling discipline in them? Do Whites and Asians look out their front windows, see manicured lawns and then become inspired to listen to their parents and teachers? People who are able to live with a certain amount of discipline IN THEIR PERSONAL lives are able to achieve--as is the case for a person of any race or socioeconomic class. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is lacking in poor areas of our country, from the ghettos of LA to the trailer parks of WV--people who chose not to submit to doing the right thing, those who choose to first ignore their parents and teachers, then later policeman and judges--that lack of self discipline is a common thread for those in poverty.

Those same kids who sat beside us in grade school, (We all knew some) stuffing their desks and lockers with homework assigments that were never completed are the same people who wind up impoverished. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY--something that you and FOOL apparently believe is not a problem with the poor in this country.

[broncofan7]

Footsteps and fool seem to be capable of an actual, intelligent conversation, filled with more than just sniping from the rafters. Therein lies your folly, bf7.

'actual intelligent conversation' does not mean agreeable--and therein lies your folly.

[broncofan7]

AA= discrimination--plain and simple--from academic admissions to better interest rates/no money down small business loans----they are inherently disadvantageous to lower-middle class white males

[lex]

The problem with this perspective is that nothing that comes BEFORE this point is even remotely equal, yet we cry foul when the pendulum swings to the other side, however brief it may be. Racism is not just an attitude held by individuals, which obviously can reside on both sides of the color line. Racism in this country is institutional, embeded deeply throughout the entire societal fabric we live in. We are, in effect...living in the matrix, but very few in the majority culture understand this. To those of us who have encountered only the sporadic effects of individual prejudice or witnessed singular events as if they were stand alone aberations, detached from their root causes or foundational underpinnings, it may seem that racism has little to do with us if we're not actively engaged in proffering a prejudicial attitude. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Those of us in the majority culture have been the constant recipients throughout life of unseen advantages we scarcely comprehend, are utterly unaware of and usually refuse to admit even exist.

The problem with this is that it speaks in general terms but when it comes to proving this on an individual basis, it can rarely be managed. Blacks only are 13-15% of the overall population. So there is a strong likelihood that many whites were not the recipients in the way that you speak of. Im familiar with your way of thinking and I actually see/know arguments for both sides. Again, Im not really required to take a position.





Take your affirmative action example for the woman in law school; while it may appear the act of balancing the scales and creating level admission requirements without favortism is just and right, the truth is a minority candidate for the position has quite probably lived an entire lifetime of unbalanced opportunity. Each time I hear someone complain about affirmative action, my first question is this; are you equally offended by the fact that black children in your city by a huge majority are exposed to inferior opportunity in every other situation you can list? Or is your concern for a just and balanced approach limited only to the 1% of opportunities where an effort is made to rectify obvious wrongs?

Again, calling a pound a pound at one of the most prestigious law schools in the country doesnt really deny any opportunities to make a good living as a lawyer. This example is an excessive and unnecessary application of AA.

Also, Im not so sure a problem that exists at inner city public schools is cause for AA. If theres a problem with public schools, do something about THAT problem and if done correctly, that will diminish the need for the inequality that is AA.

Every facet of this society favors the established majority culture, from education to health care to the justice system. This institutional bias surrounds us daily and permeates every level of our culture subtly and discretely, yet most people are amazingly unaware of it. Our economic system, with its banking and financial services, our access to things most people take for granted...the list of historic inequities has only been addressed through the courts in the last 40 years, while 400 years of accumulated reproach and the residual effects of that still linger. In other words, we can fix this issue in theory, but it exists and florishes in the real world. We have only to trek through inner city neighborhoods and view the horrifying condition of our schools to know that black and Hispanic kids in inner cities have nowhere near the opportunity for a quality education their counterparts in the burbs do.

Wow, theres a little bit of hyperbole here. But I see what youre getting at. But this is where things get touchy. There is programming that takes place that works in tandem with AA. But even some minorities arent in favor of AA.

When we get serious about creating a society that values everyone as our founding document says we were designed to do, and we then prove it with a just allocation of resources and opportunities that demonstrate we actually believe what we say we do, then we can do away with the booster shot provided by affirmative action to those who have gotten the short end of the stick prior to that point.

This is the part of the programming where people often say that society is enhanced with diversity because you have a lot of different influences. The assumption seems to be that all influences are positive. This also ignores a glaring trade off. Homogeneity isnt all bad. But thats not the reality of the US in some places and so people try to frame diversity in a way theyre comfortable with.

[footstepsfrom#27]

and how does this affect whether or not a child comes home and focuses on his academics? How does this affect whether or not a parent pushes their children in the right direction and takes an active role in instilling discipline in them?
It has everything to do with it. When you are taught from your earliest memories that you're not as worthy as others, and then you have the lesson ramrodded home daily each time you walk through a neighborhood where it's clear there is no concern for your living conditions, no attempt to fix or repair the problems, no serious initiative to halt what is the rapid decay of entire sections of major US cities while money is spent on cosmetic additions to white sections of the city where they have infinitely more resources...that produces in tandem with multiple other systemic embedded racist infuences that saturate the entire culture...a sense of hopelessness, one that saps motivation, destroys initiative, damages both the indiviudal and the group psyche.

This is not an accident...it's deliberate.

Do Whites and Asians look out their front windows, see manicured lawns and then become inspired to listen to their parents and teachers?
No...which is my point. They're essentially oblivious to the environmental advantages they take for granted every day without a second thought. Were they however, to actually have to live on the other side of the tracks for a while...it would become more readily apparent, more obvious to the thinking, conscious mind.
People who are able to live with a certain amount of discipline IN THEIR PERSONAL lives are able to achieve--as is the case for a person of any race or socioeconomic class. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is lacking in poor areas of our country, from the ghettos of LA to the trailer parks of WV--people who chose not to submit to doing the right thing, those who choose to first ignore their parents and teachers, then later policeman and judges--that lack of self discipline is a common thread for those in poverty.
Hundres of studies over many years prove that the single biggest factor in every known demographic irregularity we see manifesting itself in social problems is poverty and it's associcated conditions. Race is highly correlated with poverty. For every superior or heroic effort that finds its fulfillment in tangible success through academic or financial achievement, there are many equally impressive efforts cut short by the inherrant disadvantages of starting with 2 strikes against you. It's the height of foolishness to note that because the human spirit can and has overcome obstacles...we should not care that those obstacles exist in overwhelming proportions in some communities but not in others. If we want to mantain a strong economic standing in a world where we are suddenly no longer able to compete without rivals for a piece of the economic pie, then we absolutely MUST fix the issues that are leaving nearly 30% of our populace at risk of wasting their talents. Even if this issue is seen purely from a business perspective, setting aside the issues of social and moral responsibility we have as a nation that claims to believe in the equality of all...it is inherrently unwise to leave our cities broken and lying in the dust while we spend massive amounts of resources either sweeping the problem under the rug or pretending we are fixing things because we can put people in prisons. We simply cannot afford to leave ANY group of human potential untapped...and we are doing exactly that.
Those same kids who sat beside us in grade school, (We all knew some) stuffing their desks and lockers with homework assigments that were never completed are the same people who wind up impoverished. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY--something that you and FOOL apparently believe is not a problem with the poor in this country.
I believe it's obvious that personal responsibility is built into people from examples they see from birth...and the weak or non-existant societal structures that make that vastly more difficult in economically isolated and marginalized communites ramps up the unlikelyhood that will occur. Even if no studies were able to correlate poverty and race with issues of crime, hoplessness, substance abuse, lack of financial participation...even if NOTHING proved the axiom that poverty weakens people's lives...that would still be no excuse whatsoever for us to abandon people's communities in the misguided notion that "we" are being somehow "punished" because we have to share equally with our entire society, not merely those who have come to expect superior treatment yet think they are simply receiving what they are somehow entitled to.

If you want to fix affirmative action...wonderful...first fix the conditions that made it necessary in the first place. Then you won't have a need for ti any longer. That would be infinitely more productive than leaving large chunks of the population to flounder in disgrace and despair and then throwing an occasional bone to someone in order to make us feel like we're actually doing something.

[broncofan7]

"Hundres of studies over many years prove that the single biggest factor in every known demographic irregularity we see manifesting itself in social problems is poverty and it's associcated conditions. Race is highly correlated with poverty"

Well what causes the poverty? You are stating that Race causes/is correlated with the poverty. I say that it is lack of self discipline within a greater % of certain communities that leads to counter productive behavior whicxh leads to generational poverty-(having more children than one can afford, lack of 2 parent homes when already poor, over 50% drop out rates in grade school, high % of incarceration)----if it was soley about race leading to poverty, is their some inherent trait that you feel Whites and Asian possess that lead them to on a % basis, be less impoverished than Blacks & latinos? For every argument that some minotiry group is repressed solely because they are minority, the Asian Minority can be brought up to counter any of your race based-poverty arguments. It all comes back to a lack of self discipline within certain communities that leads to generational poverty

I would really like to see Obama's secretary of Education turn every school that doesn't graduate at least 80% of it's students into a military institute where the students would be given uniforms, mandated to wear them, given 3 meals a day (9-10 hour school day) and forced to adhere to very strict rules and standards--many of which are not being provided by the parents of poor children. Now THAT is a potential solution to help get the ~ 30% of the American population that is currently underachieving to be able to realize the American Dream. Bring discipline to the pockets of poverty throughout this country and it will be the single biggest invetsment that this country could make in it's future. Then those same kids will come back and make their once delapidated neighborhoods thriving meccas for American business......

[vancejohnson82]

Footsteps,

You mentioned that the "privileged" people in power tend to put more money into thier own communities (I think this was like two posts up about North Texas and South Texas)

Why is it that when a majority of these people from the underprivileged areas get money, they refuse to put it back into where they came from?

ANd I know there are plenty that do, but I would have to say that it is less than 50% who actually contribute DIRECTLY to their neighborhoods

[Pseudofool]

I say that it is lack of self discipline within a greater % of certain communities that leads to counter productive behavior whicxh leads to generational povertyYou know poor people work hard, right?

And more than that, how does one escape poverty, if we accept that they aren't learning "self discipline" at home or in the schools? How does one learn to try hard? It's not inherent, it's not a matter of just doing it--if that was the case everyone would simply work their way out of poverty. There needs to be someone there to teach children to try hard, to learn the value of work ethic, and to have the confidence that they can overcome the dereliction of their lives.

When people are successful who live in these communities and somehow manage to pull themselves out of poverty; they often leave that community and so rarely get the chance to pass on skills that they've learned, so as to rise up the community, rather than create an exodus.

Honestly, you need to rethink the psychology of poverty, the psychology of hopelessness. You also need to expand your thinking beyond individuals and examine the social structures that allow poverty to exist and reinforce poverty. The worlds far more complicated than your allowing yourself to realize.

I just find the view "Dangnabit! I worked hard, and I'm fine. Why can't everyone else just work as hard as me?" to be very out of touch with humanity.

[Pseudofool]

Why is it that when a majority of these people from the underprivileged areas get money, they refuse to put it back into where they came from?
I know you didn't ask me, but poverty is stigmatized. And in general the American Dream consists of buying a house in a neighborhood that isn't the projects. More than that, their success probably requires them to live near where they work, which likely isn't where they grew up. The same thing happens in rural white communities.

But it's silly to expect the few people that escape poverty to shoulder this burden.

[mr007]

This is the perfect example of the kind of thinking I'm referring to. You see trying to rectify bad conditions as "punishment" to someone not receiving the same attention, even though that indiviudal has a lifetime of priviledge associated with nothing more than color and economics by birth and has received thousands of ittle perks unknown elsewhere. This thinking stems from a sense that one group is entitled to something that it has purely on it's own merit...when that is false. What makes opportunity a given for one group and not the other?

Let's start with a question you asked; "How do you address the apathy in those neighborhoods?" You ask this as if it's a rhetorical question...one where the answer is, "We can't." But this is far from true. Start with asking yourself what you would want done if you lived there? Begin with the basics...for every dollar spent in the upscale communites on infrastructure repair, maintenance, economic development, education, city services like parks and recreation...what do you suppose is spent in the urban areas that need it far worse? I can assure you that in most cities it pales in comparison. Why? Because we don't care...very simple...we don't care. Start with the things most obviously causing despair...fix the physical environment first...the terrible condition of city streets, tear down old dilapidated buildings, use city codes to run liquor stores, pawn shops, bars and other kinds of undesirables out of the area. Repair infrastructure, build new schools, develop parks and pour money into attracting economic develpment there just like we do in the burbs or rich areas of town. Use the concept of attracting investment instead of just throwing money at worthless social programs that are often proven failures. There are dozens of innovtative ways of doing this.

Here in Dallas, the north side of town and the downtown business districts receive the vast majority of city project funds, while the south is left to languish in poverty and has to beg for every nickel. This is not an accident...it's because the people of power and influence get things done in their part of town. We should be spending $3 in urban neighborhoods for every $1 we spend in upscale areas simply because they need it worse. For education the insane method of funding public schools that allows public tax money to be broken down and divided into district money pots has to be changed so that nobody gets shafted in what is offered them in the way of educational facilities because of where they live.

You talk about community college as if that's the solution for black kids...why is not the solution for white kids? If it's good enough for one it's good enough for the other. Only it's not good enough...we should be striving to educate ALL kids, not warehouse them in broken down school houses with inferior resources, poorly paid teachers and low expectations. It's true we can't fix every problem immediately but we can begin working on the ones we can fix, which we're not. We are destroying our own future as a nation in the global economic marketplace because we are failing to utilize the vast human talent resources we have in the inner city.

That's not smart.

This is a great writing Footsteps. The only issue I would have with a previous post you made was concerning the white woman vs whoever getting into a prestigious college.

I'm not sure if this was addressed previously as I admittedly haven't read the whole thread, but I think programs such as AA really should apply to individuals in general that have had a rough upbringing in the hoods, ghettos, etc and shouldn't just apply to a specific race even if they are in the majority for those situations.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well what causes the poverty? You are stating that Race causes/is correlated with the poverty. I say that it is lack of self discipline within a greater % of certain communities that leads to counter productive behavior whicxh leads to generational poverty-(having more children than one can afford, lack of 2 parent homes when already poor, over 50% drop out rates in grade school, high % of incarceration)
350 years of institutional race-based orchestration on the part of the ruling culture have created the environment where some have a head start and others don't. Even if no correlation existed at all, if no connection existed between race and poverty, and even if it could be definitively proven that some kind of genetic code was predisposing minorities for failure, that would NOT excuse society determining that one group of people should receive what they need while others should not. Standing purely on the merits of fairness alone...the one we say we believe in with the first paragraph of our Declaration of Independence... there is no justification for allowing urban communities to decay without remedy while we continuously invest and re-invest in those places that need the least help.

If you believe otherwise, ask yourself this question; what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if your kids were the ones locked into bad schools, inferior environmental surroundings, had lack of available opportunities and were expected to overcome these disadvantages with pure will power and superior actions of self discipline on their part? Something as simple as a perceived advantage in affirmative action causes you personal consternation...what if that advantage became your personal DISadvantage...multiplied hundreds of times over again? Would you willingly let your kids attend inner city schools where they were virtually guaranteed they'd receive the left overs? Would you willingly switch places from birth and suggest that this re-stacking of the deck was just and without problems simply because you might find a way out of the mess on your own? Of course you wouldn't. No clear thinking individual would make that trade.
----if it was soley about race leading to poverty, is their some inherent trait that you feel Whites and Asian possess that lead them to on a % basis, be less impoverished than Blacks & latinos? For every argument that some minotiry group is repressed solely because they are minority, the Asian Minority can be brought up to counter any of your race based-poverty arguments. It all comes back to a lack of self discipline within certain communities that leads to generational poverty
This is not genetic...it's environmental.

First of all, there is nowhere NEAR the systemic history of racism in this country associated with being Asian as there is with being black, not on anything remotely similar in scale or the pervasiveness of it's damage. Second...a large number of Asians living here are either 1st or 2nd generation Americans who were able to come here not as poor and impoverished immigrants the way people arrived at Ellis Island a century ago did. They often arrive from a background of success and wealth in their home countries, which is why they are able to get here in the first place. Even those who arrive here as poor, often arrive with family already waiting for them who have been here long enough to establish businesses, create networks of empowerment and possess a strong familial background from the prior culture where academic pursuits were part and parcel of the prior cultural experience and success has been programmed into them from birth through cultural norms and expectations. When the children of people who are financially able to provide them with what they need, come from strong established family relationships and have pre-existing opportunities waiting for them before they arive here...and those people are processed into this equation as merely "minorities" lumped together with an entirely different group with a massively different experience...what you get is a skewed understanding of the baseline differences between these groups. That is why you reached this completely untenable conclusion. Poor Asians generally don't have nearly the opportunities to immigrate to the US as those with means do, hence the lack of available subjects to examine has radically different characteristics culturally, economically and socially than minorities who have lived in a dominant and repressive culture for centuries.

[broncofan7]

You know poor people work hard, right?

And more than that, how does one escape poverty, if we accept that they aren't learning "self discipline" at home or in the schools? How does one learn to try hard? It's not inherent, it's not a matter of just doing it--if that was the case everyone would simply work their way out of poverty. There needs to be someone there to teach children to try hard, to learn the value of work ethic, and to have the confidence that they can overcome the dereliction of their lives.

When people are successful who live in these communities and somehow manage to pull themselves out of poverty; they often leave that community and so rarely get the chance to pass on skills that they've learned, so as to rise up the community, rather than create an exodus.

Honestly, you need to rethink the psychology of poverty, the psychology of hopelessness. You also need to expand your thinking beyond individuals and examine the social structures that allow poverty to exist and reinforce poverty. The worlds far more complicated than your allowing yourself to realize.

I just find the view "Dangnabit! I worked hard, and I'm fine. Why can't everyone else just work as hard as me?" to be very out of touch with humanity.


1) From the adults that are put around them


2) I just find the 'that's ok, your are inherently poor so I will excuse your continued cycle of self-depravation without looking into the core of what causes generational poverty'--lack of discipline and direction---to be naive and ill founded.

and my solution is military schools. See my post.......

[TailgateNut]

1) From the adults that are put around them


2) I just find the 'that's ok, your are inherently poor so I will excuse your continued cycle of self-depravation without looking into the core of what causes generational poverty'--lack of discipline and direction---to be naive and ill founded.

and my solution is military schools. See my post.......

Stalag 13. Hilarious!

[Pseudofool]

1) From the adults that are put around them
This is what you are missing, no such adults exist, unless we as society start putting such adults there (giving incentive for excellent teachers, community organizers, police, pastors that clearly don't exist today).

Military schools? Really? That's almost streamlining the process of poverty to the front lines. You need hope before you can learn self-discipline. But maybe we can beat poverty out of people or something.

[broncofan7]

350 years of institutional race-based orchestration on the part of the ruling culture have created the environment where some have a head start and others don't. Even if no correlation existed at all, if no connection existed between race and poverty, and even if it could be definitively proven that some kind of genetic code was predisposing minorities for failure, that would NOT excuse society determining that one group of people should receive what they need while others should not. Standing purely on the merits of fairness alone...the one we say we believe in with the first paragraph of our Declaration of Independence... there is no justification for allowing urban communities to decay without remedy while we continuously invest and re-invest in those places that need the least help.

If you believe otherwise, ask yourself this question; what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if your kids were the ones locked into bad schools, inferior environmental surroundings, had lack of available opportunities and were expected to overcome these disadvantages with pure will power and superior actions of self discipline on their part? Something as simple as a perceived advantage in affirmative action causes you personal consternation...what if that advantage became your personal DISadvantage...multiplied hundreds of times over again? Would you willingly let your kids attend inner city schools where they were virtually guaranteed they'd receive the left overs? Would you willingly switch places from birth and suggest that this re-stacking of the deck was just and without problems simply because you might find a way out of the mess on your own? Of course you wouldn't. No clear thinking individual would make that trade.

This is not genetic...it's environmental.

First of all, there is nowhere NEAR the systemic history of racism in this country associated with being Asian as there is with being black, not on anything remotely similar in scale or the pervasiveness of it's damage. Second...a large number of Asians living here are either 1st or 2nd generation Americans who were able to come here not as poor and impoverished immigrants the way people arrived at Ellis Island a century ago did. They often arrive from a background of success and wealth in their home countries, which is why they are able to get here in the first place. Even those who arrive here as poor, often arrive with family already waiting for them who have been here long enough to establish businesses, create networks of empowerment and possess a strong familial background from the prior culture where academic pursuits were part and parcel of the prior cultural experience and success has been programmed into them from birth through cultural norms and expectations. When the children of people who are financially able to provide them with what they need, come from strong established family relationships and have pre-existing opportunities waiting for them before they arive here...and those people are processed into this equation as merely "minorities" lumped together with an entirely different group with a massively different experience...what you get is a skewed understanding of the baseline differences between these groups. That is why you reached this completely untenable conclusion. Poor Asians generally don't have nearly the opportunities to immigrate to the US as those with means do, hence the lack of available subjects to examine has radically different characteristics culturally, economically and socially than minorities who have lived in a dominant and repressive culture for centuries.

What 'evens' the playing field for blacks in your opinion? AA certainly hasn't in your view? Reparation's perhaps? How about a 2500 sq ft home in suburbia for every person of african lineage? Your excuse mongering is very sickening---It comes down to a lack of discipline--and that is multi-generational---and the blacks that do get out of the ghetto are often taunted by jealous others as 'uncle toms' or 'acting white'........which further shows the dysfunctional environment that exists in the inner cities--that certain people will associate being successful with 'selling out'. Until we are able to bring discipline to the inner cities and Appalachia-type environments, they will continue to breed a cesspool of failure and poverty. And throwing more $$ into schools that are unable to provide the discipline that these kids are not receiving @ home would be a magnificent failure--That is why I am advocating military schools that provided 3 meals per day and uniforms for those schools who fail to graduate over 80% of their students..........without discipline, their cannot be personal dignity.

[TailgateNut]

"will continue to breed a cesspool of failure and poverty"


WOW!!!!!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Footsteps,

You mentioned that the "privileged" people in power tend to put more money into thier own communities (I think this was like two posts up about North Texas and South Texas)

Why is it that when a majority of these people from the underprivileged areas get money, they refuse to put it back into where they came from?

ANd I know there are plenty that do, but I would have to say that it is less than 50% who actually contribute DIRECTLY to their neighborhoods
These are false assertions and I doubt you can substantiate your hypothesis. Let me illustrate why this is incorrect from the vantage point of being a business consultant:

The best business schools in the world...Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Duke, Columbia, Oxford, Cambridge...roughly most of the top 100...are now introducing a paradigm shift in thinking into the matrix of how commerce is supposed to function that began ten years ago...a shift away from business being all about profit and value for shareholders towards one that understands that stakeholders...ie; those with other concerns...are equally important. This is why you have a marked rise in business and corporate interests pimping green tech, corporate social responsibility, human rights, etc...the popular term being codified is "social entrepreneur"...describing a business model that introduces blended values...both financial and benevolent...into the economic equation. Social entrepreneurs are the tip of the spear in over-the-horizon thinking that will replace most non-profit organizations in the next 25 years. In short...they represent the most strategic use of financial resources, human talent and creative innovation in the world that is focused on solving social problems.

The most aggressive growth markets for new businesses in the US are women owned enterprises, specifically black and Hispanic women owned businesses which are growing at a rate 500% faster than the economy at large. Despite the growth of these new businesses, the average black-female owned business makes less than half in revenue what a similar business owned by a white female makes. The #1 reason is a lack of access to sophisticated networks of financial service providers and consulting experts...they don't personally know bankers, venture capitalists, CPA's, business law attorneys, equity fund managers, etc...and when they have these services available they are often culturally out of touch with them and unable to benefit as they should be able to.

In spite of this...the hottest markets for replicating emerging social entrepreneurs...people putting their business to work in their community for socially beneficial action...are these same black women-owned business enterprises. Black female entrepreneurs in both the UK and the US are significantly more likely to utilize their commercial endeavors to benefit their neighborhoods and their communities. Black owned businesses historically have acted as forces for social entrepreneurship long before the word entered the business lexicon ten years ago. Minority business people in general are more, not less...philanthropic and more, not less, committed to making a difference where they live.

[broncofan7]

This is what you are missing, no such adults exist, unless we as society start putting such adults there (giving incentive for excellent teachers, community organizers, police, pastors that clearly don't exist today).

Military schools? Really? That's almost streamlining the process of poverty to the front lines. You need hope before you can learn self-discipline. But maybe we can beat poverty out of people or something.

That's all I need to know about you. And I am not surprised in the least...

So how do you propose we supply 'HOPE'? You know who motivated me? My Postal service working father and my older brothers--I wanted to be BETTER than them. The USAF reserve helped provide me some discipline ( and a little money as well) and I was able parlay my drive into a fairy succesful life so far. I understand that many BLACKS do not have Fathers or Mothers who serve as good examples for their children--that is precisely where the MILITARY SCHOOLS come in.

[broncofan7]

These are false assertions and I doubt you can substantiate your hypothesis. Let me illustrate why this is incorrect from the vantage point of being a business consultant:

The best business schools in the world...Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Duke, Columbia, Oxford, Cambridge...roughly most of the top 100...are now introducing a paradigm shift in thinking into the matrix of how commerce is supposed to function that began ten years ago...a shift away from business being all about profit and value for shareholders towards one that understands that stakeholders...ie; those with other concerns...are equally important. This is why you have a marked rise in business and corporate interests pimping green tech, corporate social responsibility, human rights, etc...the popular term being codified is "social entrepreneur"...describing a business model that introduces blended values...both financial and benevolent...into the economic equation. Social entrepreneurs are the tip of the spear in over-the-horizon thinking that will replace most non-profit organizations in the next 25 years. In short...they represent the most strategic use of financial resources, human talent and creative innovation in the world that is focused on solving social problems.

The most aggressive growth markets for new businesses in the US are women owned enterprises, specifically black and Hispanic women owned businesses which are growing at a rate 500% faster than the economy at large. Despite the growth of these new businesses, the average black-female owned business makes less than half in revenue what a similar business owned by a white female makes. The #1 reason is a lack of access to sophisticated networks of financial service providers and consulting experts...they don't personally know bankers, venture capitalists, CPA's, business law attorneys, equity fund managers, etc...and when they have these services available they are often culturally out of touch with them and unable to benefit as they should be able to.

In spite of this...the hottest markets for replicating emerging social entrepreneurs...people putting their business to work in their community for socially beneficial action...are these same black women-owned business enterprises. Black female entrepreneurs in both the UK and the US are significantly more likely to utilize their commercial endeavors to benefit their neighborhoods and their communities. Black owned businesses historically have acted as forces for social entrepreneurship long before the word entered the business lexicon ten years ago. Minority business people in general are more, not less...philanthropic and more, not less, committed to making a difference where they live.

So a Nascar loving red neck whitey who wants to own his own lumbar yard is going to be "culturally-IN Touch' with the bankers etc? Give me a break--

[Pseudofool]

These are false assertions and I doubt you can substantiate your hypothesisAre you really implying that the cultural phenomenon of "escaping poverty to never return" doesn't exist? I'm heartened by the emerging business model you mention, but that doesn't change the fact that most people who grew up in poor neighborhoods have no desire to live their as successful adults.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27
The problem with this perspective is that nothing that comes BEFORE this point is even remotely equal, yet we cry foul when the pendulum swings to the other side, however brief it may be. Racism is not just an attitude held by individuals, which obviously can reside on both sides of the color line. Racism in this country is institutional, embeded deeply throughout the entire societal fabric we live in. We are, in effect...living in the matrix, but very few in the majority culture understand this. To those of us who have encountered only the sporadic effects of individual prejudice or witnessed singular events as if they were stand alone aberations, detached from their root causes or foundational underpinnings, it may seem that racism has little to do with us if we're not actively engaged in proffering a prejudicial attitude. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Those of us in the majority culture have been the constant recipients throughout life of unseen advantages we scarcely comprehend, are utterly unaware of and usually refuse to admit even exist.
The problem with this is that it speaks in general terms but when it comes to proving this on an individual basis, it can rarely be managed. Blacks only are 13-15% of the overall population. So there is a strong likelihood that many whites were not the recipients in the way that you speak of. Im familiar with your way of thinking and I actually see/know arguments for both sides. Again, Im not really required to take a position.
I'm not sure what you mean by "general terms" or "an individual basis". The whole concept of institutional racism is that in intertwines itself into the fabric of culture, of societal institutions, of media, of social, economic and psychological foundations that represent a combined "matrix" that we live within, while seldom understanding it's true impact. As such...ALL whites are inherently by the fact they possess the sole characteristic of the dominant skin color...the latent beneficiaries of advantage. That's the entire point...this unseen cultural force is exactly often that...unseen.

That does not make it less demonstrable.

[Pseudofool]

That's all I need to know about you. And I am not surprised in the least...

So how do you propose we supply 'HOPE'? You know who motivated me? My Postal service working father and my older brothers--I wanted to be BETTER than them. The USAF reserve helped provide me some discipline ( and a little money as well) and I was able parlay my drive into a fairy succesful life so far. I understand that many BLACKS do not have Fathers or Mothers who serve as good examples for their children--that is precisely where the MILITARY SCHOOLS come in.
Just because it works for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Postal worker is a pretty good job. Better job than my pop ever had. You can install hope by, like I said, giving incentive for excellent teachers, police, community organizers to work and live in poor rural and urban communities.

And your not really denying the connection between poverty and infantry are you?

[Pseudofool]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 The whole concept of institutional racism is that in intertwines itself into the fabric of culture, of societal institutions, of media, of social, economic and psychological foundations that represent a combined "matrix" that we live within, while seldom understanding it's true impact. As such...ALL whites are inherently by the fact they possess the sole characteristic of the dominant skin color...the latent beneficiaries of advantage. That's the entire point...this unseen cultural force is exactly often that...unseen.

That does not make it less demonstrable.Of course, but you realize how complicated that is, right? I mean we're talking about hegemony here (you may not use the word), but it's a difficult thing to get one's head around. And these guys have incentive for not seeing the world this way. This also hits on issues of freewill which is a whole nother can of worms, but is very related to these guys unwillingness to heed that social institutions manufacture pervasive and invisible ideologies.

[footstepsfrom#27]

So a Nascar loving red neck whitey who wants to own his own lumbar yard is going to be "culturally-IN Touch' with the bankers etc? Give me a break--
Nope. He's also probably out of touch, but NASCAR loving, red neck whitey who wants to own his own lumber yard is probably able to connect with someone in the finance community who at least is familiar with most, if not all, of his business challenges.

I'm not telling you this as theory...I'm tellinig you this because it's what I do for a living. I build networks for business empowerment that transcend race/class/culture/industry/sector and traditional barriers in thinking, design social enterprise project objectives into them in consultation with partnerships and develop measuring tools to quantify impact. The fact is...minority businesses are significantly less likely to benefit from professional assistance for the reasons I listed. I see it every day...probably 80% of my time is spent in trying to overcome this issue.

[lex]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27
The problem with this perspective is that nothing that comes BEFORE this point is even remotely equal, yet we cry foul when the pendulum swings to the other side, however brief it may be. Racism is not just an attitude held by individuals, which obviously can reside on both sides of the color line. Racism in this country is institutional, embeded deeply throughout the entire societal fabric we live in. We are, in effect...living in the matrix, but very few in the majority culture understand this. To those of us who have encountered only the sporadic effects of individual prejudice or witnessed singular events as if they were stand alone aberations, detached from their root causes or foundational underpinnings, it may seem that racism has little to do with us if we're not actively engaged in proffering a prejudicial attitude. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Those of us in the majority culture have been the constant recipients throughout life of unseen advantages we scarcely comprehend, are utterly unaware of and usually refuse to admit even exist.

I'm not sure what you mean by "general terms" or "an individual basis". The whole concept of institutional racism is that in intertwines itself into the fabric of culture, of societal institutions, of media, of social, economic and psychological foundations that represent a combined "matrix" that we live within, while seldom understanding it's true impact. As such...ALL whites are inherently by the fact they possess the sole characteristic of the dominant skin color...the latent beneficiaries of advantage. That's the entire point...this unseen cultural force is exactly often that...unseen.

That does not make it less demonstrable.


Im talking about the trade off of the larger cause that is advancing a demographic through AA vs. some victim of AAs right to equality. This is the trade off. Its the many vs the individual.

BTW, vague phrasing like this "seldom understanding it's true impact" is something I reject. Speaking in such vagueries is just a catch all...a way to insinuate racism in a variety of ways without being pinned down to show that its actually true. In other words, its a blank check to make accusations. Thats too loose for me and so I reject such notions.

[broncofan7]

Nope. He's also probably out of touch, but NASCAR loving, red neck whitey who wants to own his own lumber yard is probably able to connect with someone in the finance community who at least is familiar with most, if not all, of his business challenges.

I'm not telling you this as theory...I'm tellinig you this because it's what I do for a living. I build networks for business empowerment that transcend race/class/culture/industry/sector and traditional barriers in thinking, design social enterprise project objectives into them in consultation with partnerships and develop measuring tools to quantify impact. The fact is...minority businesses are significantly less likely to benefit from professional assistance for the reasons I listed. I see it every day...probably 80% of my time is spent in trying to overcome this issue.

Exactly---I am thinking that you are probably wrong.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Are you really implying that the cultural phenomenon of "escaping poverty to never return" doesn't exist? I'm heartened by the emerging business model you mention, but that doesn't change the fact that most people who grew up in poor neighborhoods have no desire to live their as successful adults.
Of course not...but that wasn't the question. The question was about people putting money back into the community. One needn't live in the mist of poverty to help others out of it, but the single largest factor that establishes someone as willing to commit significant time, energy and resources towards changing a community is time spent experientially within that community or sharing that experience. The same goes for any other social cause...from people suffering from diseases to those who have been crime victims...overwhelmingly experiential knowledge is a high level predictor for future interest in change.

[lex]

Of course, but you realize how complicated that is, right? I mean we're talking about hegemony here (you may not use the word), but it's a difficult thing to get one's head around. And these guys have incentive for not seeing the world this way. This also hits on issues of freewill which is a whole nother can of worms, but is very related to these guys unwillingness to heed that social institutions manufacture pervasive and invisible ideologies.


Hegemony...a fancy way of saying programming or even thought control.

Its funny because when I first became familiar with hegemon, it was in relation to global politics.

[Pseudofool]

Nope. He's also probably out of touch, but NASCAR loving, red neck whitey who wants to own his own lumber yard is probably able to connect with someone in the finance community who at least is familiar with most, if not all, of his business challenges.

I'm not telling you this as theory...I'm tellinig you this because it's what I do for a living. I build networks for business empowerment that transcend race/class/culture/industry/sector and traditional barriers in thinking, design social enterprise project objectives into them in consultation with partnerships and develop measuring tools to quantify impact. The fact is...minority businesses are significantly less likely to benefit from professional assistance for the reasons I listed. I see it every day...probably 80% of my time is spent in trying to overcome this issue.footsteps I sent you a PM on this.

[broncofan7]

Just because it works for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Postal worker is a pretty good job. Better job than my pop ever had. You can install hope by, like I said, giving incentive for excellent teachers, police, community organizers to work and live in poor rural and urban communities.

And your not really denying the connection between poverty and infantry are you?


What excellent teacher is going to want to go and teach in schools where the children are going to be largely undisciplined and without the suport of the parents? Without providing a military school type of environment, 'better' teachers by and large are not going to want to deal with babysitting.

The Army recruits people with ASFAB scores that are lower than the USAF and Navy. Infantry work does not cause people to be poor.
Why are you making the assumption that military schools equate to military service?

[Pseudofool]

That's why you provide incentive. I'd do it, if I had resources available for it to be successful.

Infantry work does not cause people to be poor.
Why are you making the assumption that military schools equate to military service?You've got my point reversed. My point is that poor people are far more likely to end up as infantry than they are officers.

[broncocalijohn]

footsteps, you are the reason the inner city wont work with welfare, AA or any other program as long as you coddle the group. You give us reasons but in turn they are excuses. There is no reason for a poor neighborhood to have uncut lawns, graffiti, unpainted homes, etc. Not everything is peachy keen in "white" neighborhoods in people's personal lives but I dont see the neighborhoods run down. Apathy from parents is generational that seems to have started in the 60s. You control your life and if you let the negative regulate your life, you will be full of excuses. Not everyone goes to college and get rich. Most successful people need to graduate high school and then even a service oriented job can be a good living. If 47% of kids are graduating from LAUSD (I am sure the total number includes many white kids), there is still a big amount of inner city kids graduating. This school district has the highest paid teachers of about 35%. Money thrown at schools doesnt equate to success. The reason why those schools arent as nice as the ones in your neighborhood is because property tax is used for local school districts. It is one of the ways that middle/upper class get to actually use the tax money that they pay. This all boils down to parent(s) that dont care, kids that dont care and teachers that get frustrated with the apathy and lack of discipline that these kids show in class. You seem to never blame those attached to the problem because they cant be responsible for their own actions.

[Pseudofool]

Hegemony...a fancy way of saying programming or even thought control.

Its funny because when I first became familiar with hegemon, it was in relation to global politics.Not it's not. Thought control has intent. Hegemony has no intent and is created bit by bit through history and culture. Thought control has someone orchestrating the strings; hegemony just happens as a result of history. Though you're right that both hegemony and thought control tend to instill a pejorative (though not necessarily pejorative) ideology.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Of course, but you realize how complicated that is, right? I mean we're talking about hegemony here (you may not use the word), but it's a difficult thing to get one's head around. And these guys have incentive for not seeing the world this way. This also hits on issues of freewill which is a whole nother can of worms, but is very related to these guys unwillingness to heed that social institutions manufacture pervasive and invisible ideologies.
I agree. But the issue is now bleeding into the business community, which is why the business model for economics represents such a highly significant opportunity for change. Study the civil rights movement over the last ten years and you'll find that the dominant strategic platform for black leadership during that time has shifted from direct confrontation with white power structures to a focus on business and economic transition, participatin and the key buzz word..."empowerment". This adjustment has taken us further from Martin Luther King, and closer to Booker T. Washington, who advocated a hundred years ago that blacks would obtain political power as a logical result of gaiing economic power first. Washington lost his philosophical argument to the confrontational stylists of his day...and they followed it for 90 years...but as the USA Today said a couple of years ago..."Social entrpereneurship is the new civil rights"...they were referencing Booker T in their discussion. Business...global and local...is already being designed to advantage us by utilizing human talent we've historically ignored. The problem in here...as it is most places...is that we're for the most part unaware of the changes taking place around us.

Twenty years from now this will be firmly roooted into the consciousness of our culture even as issues about affirmative action or social programs now dominate the discussion.

[Pseudofool]

I agree. But the issue is now bleeding into the business community, which is why the business model for economics represents such a highly significant opportunity for change. Study the civil rights movement over the last ten years and you'll find that the dominant strategic platform for black leadership during that time has shifted from direct confrontation with white power structures to a focus on business and economic transition, participatin and the key buzz word..."empowerment". This adjustment has taken us further from Martin Luther King, and closer to Booker T. Washington, who advocated a hundred years ago that blacks would obtain political power as a logical result of gaiing economic power first. Washington lost his philosophical argument to the confrontational stylists of his day...and they followed it for 90 years...but as the USA Today said a couple of years ago..."Social entrpereneurship is the new civil rights"...they were referencing Booker T in their discussion. Business...global and local...is already being designed to advantage us by utilizing human talent we've historically ignored. The problem in here...as it is most places...is that we're for the most part unaware of the changes taking place around us.

Twenty years from now this will be firmly roooted into the consciousness of our culture even as issues about affirmative action or social programs now dominate the discussion.That's interesting. It reminds me of the classic dilemma, should the slave use the master's tools to take down the master's house? (Or should the slave use the master's tools to build his/her own house).

[lex]

Not it's not. Thought control has intent. Hegemony has no intent and is created bit by bit through history and culture. Thought control has someone orchestrating the strings; hegemony just happens as a result of history. Though you're right that both hegemony and thought control tend to instill a pejorative (though not necessarily pejorative) ideology.

No, in recent years youve had more of an effort made at such programming in schools, universities, public initiatives, etc. with the idea being that over time, attitudes will be shaped (ie hegemony will occur). So there has been intent. Its been going on for a while and universities are probably the best example of it. But it hasnt only happened with race.

[Pseudofool]

No, in recent years youve had more of an effort made at such programming in schools, universities, public initiatives, etc. with the idea being that over time, attitudes will be shaped (ie hegemony will occur). So there has been intent. Its been going on for a while and universities are probably the best example of it. But it hasnt only happened with race.I'm not saying that people can't orchestrate hegemony, but in general, the term refers to a cultural process that has no definitive origin. Hegemony is often a byproduct.

Advertising is a good example in that while they sell products, they also normalize certain modes of behavior and beliefs, from what a family should look like, to how love takes place, what beauty is etc. etc.

[footstepsfrom#27]

footsteps, you are the reason the inner city wont work with welfare, AA or any other program as long as you coddle the group.
I advocate doing away with welfare and AA...and replacing it with the real commitment to bringing these communities up to par with others. Unfortunately, that also is not going to happen overnight.
You give us reasons but in turn they are excuses. There is no reason for a poor neighborhood to have uncut lawns, graffiti, unpainted homes, etc.
As I noted earlier...hundreds of studies correlate race with poverty and poverty with failure accross a wide range of societal markers for success. You are the one who wants excuses...you'd like to excuse why we should continue to spend disproportionately in areas where mostly whites live and ignore completely or substantially those areas we deem "slums"...as if they could be described as such do to no fault of ours.
Not everything is peachy keen in "white" neighborhoods in people's personal lives but I dont see the neighborhoods run down. Apathy from parents is generational that seems to have started in the 60s. You control your life and if you let the negative regulate your life, you will be full of excuses. Not everyone goes to college and get rich. Most successful people need to graduate high school and then even a service oriented job can be a good living. If 47% of kids are graduating from LAUSD (I am sure the total number includes many white kids), there is still a big amount of inner city kids graduating.
Wrong. In most large urban areas inner city black youth are radically less likely to graduate from high school, far less likely to attend college, and for boys, usually more likely to wind up in prison than attending a university. If you see this as no big deal...something we can conveniently ignore or find reasons to blame the victims of our own neglect for...then you typify the very example of one caught in the matrix that I'm speaking of.
This school district has the highest paid teachers of about 35%. Money thrown at schools doesnt equate to success.
Then why are white school districts so reluctant to do with less of it? I suggest at your next local school board meeting, which BTW you can attend and speak at if you so request...that you advocate the local district subracting 40% of their budget and donating it to another, less fortunate district where the property tax base is inadequate to provide the buildings, equipment, computers, books, counselors, etc...that your district has. See how that flies OK?
The reason why those schools arent as nice as the ones in your neighborhood is because property tax is used for local school districts. It is one of the ways that middle/upper class get to actually use the tax money that they pay.
There is no justification for public services being tied to income. Do you pay less for a postage stamp than someone in a poor neighborhood? Are you (theoretically) entitled to less police, less fire, less military protection? No...but in public, compulsary education rich school districts get to hoard their resources based on the skewed social strategy of marginalizing minority schools...which BTW are more segregated than ever...in the name of some kind of "home room" equivilent to what has basically been a practial destruction of Brown v. Board of Education carried out with economic rather than political weapons.
This all boils down to parent(s) that dont care, kids that dont care and teachers that get frustrated with the apathy and lack of discipline that these kids show in class. You seem to never blame those attached to the problem because they cant be responsible for their own actions.
I blame the culture that established the ground rules for 3 1/2 centuries which created the conditions you speak of. Those in power have a responsibility to act with fairness to those who are not...we have failed to do so.

[lex]

I'm not saying that people can't orchestrate hegemony, but in general, the term refers to a cultural process that has no definitive origin. Hegemony is often a byproduct.

Advertising is a good example in that while they sell products, they also normalize certain modes of behavior and beliefs, from what a family should look like, to how love takes place, what beauty is etc. etc.

Indeed, advertising is a good example. So too are movies. They overcompensate for the Amos and Andy days and you rarely see a black person being the shill. They make it a point to have a white person as the shill more often than not.

[Pseudofool]

Indeed, advertising is a good example. So too are movies. They overcompensate for the Amos and Andy days and you rarely see a black person being the shill. They make it a point to have a white person as the shill more often than not.
Tokenism, I think, has negative effects too.

[lex]

Tokenism, I think, has negative effects too.


Im more of an observer than an advocate.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's interesting. It reminds me of the classic dilemma, should the slave use the master's tools to take down the master's house? (Or should the slave use the master's tools to build his/her own house).
Read this...and you'll find some intriguing answers:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pLLWYVWYL.jpg

[broncofan7]

That's why you provide incentive. I'd do it, if I had resources available for it to be successful.
You've got my point reversed. My point is that poor people are far more likely to end up as infantry than they are officers.

Umm--It's that way because they enlist rather than go to college(and having to take on that expense) and get commisioned--but I don't see your point since military themed schools do not have to end up as a feeding trough for the Military--these type of schools would be a great addition to any area where the graduation rate was less than 80%--and dropping out would not be tolerated until the person was age 18.--whether it's legal or not now, the appropriate changes have to be made to bring discipline, work ethic and proper role models to those who are under served---That will be the first step in changing the outlook of the millions who are born into poverty.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Im talking about the trade off of the larger cause that is advancing a demographic through AA vs. some victim of AAs right to equality. This is the trade off. Its the many vs the individual.
That "trade-off" you speak of, would not be necessary if we treated all our citizens with the same respect and value. Building in nearly guaranteed failure through every level of society that matters as a pre-existing environmental factor and then complaining that no attempt should be made to compensate for that later...is the height of race based advantage. If you want to do away with AA...I support that 100%. Now let's do that by working to make it unnecesarry to begin with. We can do THAT by radically investing to rebuild the entire infrastructure of our crumbling inner cities...for starters.
BTW, vague phrasing like this "seldom understanding it's true impact" is something I reject. Speaking in such vagueries is just a catch all...a way to insinuate racism in a variety of ways without being pinned down to show that its actually true. In other words, its a blank check to make accusations. Thats too loose for me and so I reject such notions.
I do not speak in "vagueries" as you put it. I'm very blunt and utterly frank about what I think...this society is permeated from top to bottom with the residual artifacts of 4 centuries of race-based cultural and societal inequities...it's institutional, it's pervasive, and it's highly damaging not only minorities, but our economic standing in the world.

I do not expect you to "get it"...that's the power of the matrix...it hides reality from those who are not willing to take extraordinary measures to find it.

[lex]

That "trade-off" you speak of, would not be necessary if we treated all our citizens with the same respect and value. Building in nearly guaranteed failure through every level of society that matters as a pre-existing environmental factor and then complaining that no attempt should be made to compensate for that later...is the height of race based advantage. If you want to do away with AA...I support that 100%. Now let's do that by working to make it unnecesarry to begin with. We can do THAT by radically investing to rebuild the entire infrastructure of our crumbling inner cities...for starters.

One more reply on this topic of race and then Im done. Stop pretending like we dont know why AA exists. We went over that a long time ago. But ultimately, its not a legitimate solution because it creates another set of victims.


I do not speak in "vagueries" as you put it. I'm very blunt and utterly frank about what I think...this society is permeated from top to bottom with the residual artifacts of 4 centuries of race-based cultural and societal inequities...it's institutional, it's pervasive, and it's highly damaging not only minorities, but our economic standing in the world.

All that is nice but Im more concerned on how things occur on a case by case basis. Id rather not tapdance through the land of general accusations. Show me (not literally me)specifically how and where it is occuring. Otherwise, this is just manufactured rhetoric from a sociology book.

I do not expect you to "get it"...that's the power of the matrix...it hides reality from those who are not willing to take extraordinary measures to find it.

This is what Im talking about. Im not really not interested in this empty kind of phrasing. Im more interested in practical application which requires speaking specifically. Its not really my job to know every aspect of the narrative that is racism, especially when one is going to speak in vagueries.

[footstepsfrom#27]

One more reply on this topic of race and then Im done. Stop pretending like we dont know why AA exists. We went over that a long time ago. But ultimately, its not a legitimate solution because it creates another set of victims.
I said at least twice, that I favor doing away with AA, but the "victims" are not those who receive a lifetime worth of advantage and a single disadvantage. The true "victims" are those on the opposite end of the scale. Suppose you had a class with 30 kids in it, and 5 were told they could only attend school on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but they'd be tested over the same material and be expected to know what we refused to teach them. Would you expect them to score the same on the test? Maybe an occasional enterprising kid might find a way...but is that how it should be done?
All that is nice but Im more concerned on how things occur on a case by case basis. Id rather not tapdance through the land of general accusations. Show me (not literally me)specifically how and where it is occuring. Otherwise, this is just manufactured rhetoric from a sociology book.
The reason you'd rather see racism as "case-by-case" is because that's how white society views it...disconnected from it's context and existing as a series of stand alone problems with individuals, not systemic, not embedded, not native to the culture itself. As for giving you a clear cut example of this, I suggest you simply drive through any inner city and look for yourself at what is happening, and ask yourself as simple question...WTF is going on here? Why are we allowing this part of the community to be mired in what resembles the living condtions of some 3rd world countries? Why are the roads full of holes? Why are bridges falling apart? Why is there no park here? Why do you have to drive 30 minutes to spot a cop? I can't convince you of something by example you are unwilling to see because you won't ask hard questions. After you check this out...try this on for size. Get out of your car and walk up to people and ask them to explain their POV to you and why this is the way it is. Then understand they are speaking not from philosophical arguments on politics, but from life experiences. Why do you think I take the positions I do? It's not from academic studies or sociology books...I live and move in this community constantly and interact with these issues. Inside the perspective of a blended family, through extended family, through constant familiarity with people who speak about this. Without the effort to approach from that direction, no...you're not going to see this beyond it's single issue, single episode construction we're fed on television or through the newspapers.

[broncofan7]

I said at least twice, that I favor doing away with AA, but the "victims" are not those who receive a lifetime worth of advantage and a single disadvantage. The true "victims" are those on the opposite end of the scale. Suppose you had a class with 30 kids in it, and 5 were told they could only attend school on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but they'd be tested over the same material and be expected to know what we refused to teach them. Would you expect them to score the same on the test? Maybe an occasional enterprising kid might find a way...but is that how it should be done?

The reason you'd rather see racism as "case-by-case" is because that's how white society views it...disconnected from it's context and existing as a series of stand alone problems with individuals, not systemic, not embedded, not native to the culture itself. As for giving you a clear cut example of this, I suggest you simply drive through any inner city and look for yourself at what is happening, and ask yourself as simple question...WTF is going on here? Why are we allowing this part of the community to be mired in what resembles the living condtions of some 3rd world countries? Why are the roads full of holes? Why are bridges falling apart? Why is there no park here? Why do you have to drive 30 minutes to spot a cop? I can't convince you of something by example you are unwilling to see because you won't ask hard questions. After you check this out...try this on for size. Get out of your car and walk up to people and ask them to explain their POV to you and why this is the way it is. Then understand they are speaking not from philosophical arguments on politics, but from life experiences. Why do you think I take the positions I do? It's not from academic studies or sociology books...I live and move in this community constantly and interact with these issues. Inside the perspective of a blended family, through extended family, through constant familiarity with people who speak about this. Without the effort to approach from that direction, no...you're not going to see this beyond it's single issue, single episode construction we're fed on television or through the newspapers.

Yes, minorities born in the USA are victims upon delivery, where they will suffer a lifetime of white belittlement and neglect. NO WHERE ON THIS EARTH ARE MINORITIES MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. NO WHERE. NO WHERE ON EARTH ARE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR MINORITIES MORE PREVALENT THAN IN THE USA--NO WHERE. AA has for all intents and purposes created a 2nd group of victims--just look at the fire fighters in CT..........

[footstepsfrom#27]

What 'evens' the playing field for blacks in your opinion? AA certainly hasn't in your view? Reparation's perhaps? How about a 2500 sq ft home in suburbia for every person of african lineage?
Begin with fixing what can and should be immediately fixed. Repair the physical environment first. Fix the roads and bridges, build parks and recreation centers, tear down crime ridden slums and crack houses, build new schools and tear down the ones that are falling down already, utilize the power of incentive through things like NEZ (Neighborhood Empowerment Zones) and CDFI's (Community Development Financial Institutions) to create attactive alternatives for businesses to locate in these communities. Move from there to doing away with useless social programs that have been proven failures and replace them with innovation that technology and new approaches have been working on the last few years. Then you open a national dialogue on race, developing a town-by-town, neighborhood by neighborhood approach to solving problems. Train the millions of minority kids with the same tools we use elsewhere, find and replicate solutions that are not based on poverty models but business instruction. There are legions of ideas...listing them would take days...but we're doing very little of this. Mostly it's business as usual.
Your excuse mongering is very sickening---It comes down to a lack of discipline--and that is multi-generational---and the blacks that do get out of the ghetto are often taunted by jealous others as 'uncle toms' or 'acting white'........which further shows the dysfunctional environment that exists in the inner cities--that certain people will associate being successful with 'selling out'.
That's because 3 1/2 centuries of white society trying to destroy and dehumanize black culture has produced a an entirely understanable and not unexpected backlash, somewhat similar to the attitudes you express in here...only they exist in the black community just as they do in you. "Lack of discipline"...as I said...would you be willing to swap out places and see how it works? Maybe send your kids to schools in South Dallas or Oak Cliff? Shop where you pay more for the same products? Ride the bus instead of drive? Live where cops won't show up for hours if you call 911? All to test this theory that it doesn't matter what kind of environment you're in? If not...you're suggestion rings hollow.
Until we are able to bring discipline to the inner cities and Appalachia-type environments, they will continue to breed a cesspool of failure and poverty. And throwing more $$ into schools that are unable to provide the discipline that these kids are not receiving @ home would be a magnificent failure--That is why I am advocating military schools that provided 3 meals per day and uniforms for those schools who fail to graduate over 80% of their students..........without discipline, their cannot be personal dignity.
Most schools already have state mandated graduation rates...competency tests...a lot have uniforms. These things have not brought real change, nor have they addressed the question of why you should logically get more value for your kids from a service that is 1) public, 2) compulsary, 3) the only available option for many people...than someone who lives in anothe part of town simply because your tax base is higher.

As I said before...if money is not the answer (it's not entirely, I agree), then you and your local school board won't mind giving up a sizeable portin of it to inner city schools...............right?

Question...how come the effect of money is respected everywhere else except when it comes to discussing it's impact on education...and the resulting sacrifice that would entail from us?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Yes, minorities born in the USA are victims upon delivery, where they will suffer a lifetime of white belittlement and neglect. NO WHERE ON THIS EARTH ARE MINORITIES MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. NO WHERE. NO WHERE ON EARTH ARE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR MINORITIES MORE PREVALENT THAN IN THE USA--NO WHERE. AA has for all intents and purposes created a 2nd group of victims--just look at the fire fighters in CT..........
Actually I could argue Canada has a better multiculturual environment for minority participation than we do.

By "minorities"...do you mean whites? You do know that WE are the minorities on this earth...don't you?

[lex]

I said at least twice, that I favor doing away with AA, but the "victims" are not those who receive a lifetime worth of advantage and a single disadvantage. The true "victims" are those on the opposite end of the scale. Suppose you had a class with 30 kids in it, and 5 were told they could only attend school on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but they'd be tested over the same material and be expected to know what we refused to teach them. Would you expect them to score the same on the test? Maybe an occasional enterprising kid might find a way...but is that how it should be done?

The reason you'd rather see racism as "case-by-case" is because that's how white society views it...disconnected from it's context and existing as a series of stand alone problems with individuals, not systemic, not embedded, not native to the culture itself. As for giving you a clear cut example of this, I suggest you simply drive through any inner city and look for yourself at what is happening, and ask yourself as simple question...WTF is going on here? Why are we allowing this part of the community to be mired in what resembles the living condtions of some 3rd world countries? Why are the roads full of holes? Why are bridges falling apart? Why is there no park here? Why do you have to drive 30 minutes to spot a cop? I can't convince you of something by example you are unwilling to see because you won't ask hard questions. After you check this out...try this on for size. Get out of your car and walk up to people and ask them to explain their POV to you and why this is the way it is. Then understand they are speaking not from philosophical arguments on politics, but from life experiences. Why do you think I take the positions I do? It's not from academic studies or sociology books...I live and move in this community constantly and interact with these issues. Inside the perspective of a blended family, through extended family, through constant familiarity with people who speak about this. Without the effort to approach from that direction, no...you're not going to see this beyond it's single issue, single episode construction we're fed on television or through the newspapers.

Youre looking at this way too myopically. Im familiar with the concept of disaggregation as it existed in the Rodney King case, Im also familiar with Richmond v. Crosson, and Ive read Racism: A Short History by George Fredrickson, etc. but that doesnt mean I have to become beholden to every thing I read. Im not so tethered to any one thing that Im not able to see there are other narratives that exist. Like I told pseudofool, racism is but a moving piece and not the whole machinery. Im just not a guy that grabs on to every cause I read about with both hands. Thats kind of narrow.

Youre denouncing me because Im not totally buying what youre selling. This is the same thing people are accusing bf7 of. Its amazing to think that for all the high brow rhetoric, youre no better than him.

[broncofan7]

Actually I could argue Canada has a better multiculturual environment for minority participation than we do.

By "minorities"...do you mean whites? You do know that WE are the minorities on this earth...don't you?

That's not really that clever. And no I did NOT mean whites as you OBVIOUSLY understood. Canada? Hardly.......the shear number of succesful minorities in this country discounts that argument probably 1000 fold.......

[footstepsfrom#27]

Youre looking at this way too myopically. Im familiar with the concept of disaggregation as it existed in the Rodney King case, Im also familiar with Richmond v. Crosson, and Ive read Racism: A Short History by George Fredrickson, etc. but that doesnt mean I have to become beholden to every thing I read. Im not so tethered to any one thing that Im not able to see there are other narratives that exist. Like I told pseudofool, racism is but a moving piece and not the whole machinery. Im just not a guy that grabs on to every cause I read about with both hands. Thats kind of narrow.

Youre denouncing me because Im not totally buying what youre selling. This is the same thing people are accusing bf7 of. Its amazing to think that for all the high brow rhetoric, youre no better than him.
Actually I'm not denouncing you at all. I do not blame anyone living in the Matrix for not recognizing its existence. By very definition...it's subtilties exist outside the conscious awareness of most of its inhabitants. That said, despite your inability to connect context with singular episodes or exaples of racism...something you yourself stated was outside your interest...the practical impact of this is not unlike opening a 400 page book to page 238 and reading a paragrah, then asking what the relevance is.

As for bf7...it's fairly obvious that by overwhelmingly focusing on the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule...the faulty and ironic issue of "white genocide" for example, and then protesting when others call if for what it is...he will trigger attacks. Conversely...my approach is to state my POV, offer reasons for it, introduce solutions I see for questions people such as yourself have posed, and argue that in the end, the point behind founding this country in the first place was to introduce a new experiment...one based on equality rather than bias. By questioning the likely success of potential solutions, my opponents suggest these actions should be ignored. In truth...from a moral perspective, it doesn't matter if black kids are more likely to succeed with adequate resources and fair treatment of not...it's immoral to deny one community the public resources offered another, especially given the hundreds of years of abuses we have on our hands.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's not really that clever. And no I did NOT mean whites as you OBVIOUSLY understood. Canada? Hardly.......the shear number of succesful minorities in this country discounts that argument probably 1000 fold.......
You've never spent much time up there have you?

Your argument is similar to the one used by white slave owners 200 years ago.; basically it's, "They're better off here than they would be in Africa."

At the end of the day...it matters not whether "minorities" (a hugely broad term that builds an unsubstantiated claim) are "better off" here...the question you should ask is why we are treating people differently than our founding principles said we were supposed to.

I'm still waiting for your answer on the stuff I asked...school board, you living in an economically disadvantaged community, your kids going to impoverished schools...all the things you say are meaningless to success...yet you haven't answered the question of whether you'd swap places.

Would you?

[broncofan7]

You've never spent much time up there have you?

Your argument is similar to the one used by white slave owners 200 years ago.; basically it's, "They're better off here than they would be in Africa."

At the end of the day...it matters not whether "minorities" (a hugely broad term that builds an unsubstantiated claim) are "better off" here...the question you should ask is why we are treating people differently than our founding principles said we were supposed to.
I'm still waiting for your answer on the stuff I asked...school board, you living in an economically disadvantaged community, your kids going to impoverished schools...all the things you say are meaningless to success...yet you haven't answered the question of whether you'd swap places.

Would you?

We are not treating people differently ANYMORE based upon race. And that throws your whole argument off kilter--and because you chose to hold onto this premise, you give people a false hope that things will get better without them taking personal responsibility for their actions in their lives.

[Punisher]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg/300px-Bos_taurus_taurus_pooh.jpg

LOL LOL LOL LOL YES!!! LMAO

[broncofan7]

You've never spent much time up there have you?

Your argument is similar to the one used by white slave owners 200 years ago.; basically it's, "They're better off here than they would be in Africa."

At the end of the day...it matters not whether "minorities" (a hugely broad term that builds an unsubstantiated claim) are "better off" here...the question you should ask is why we are treating people differently than our founding principles said we were supposed to.

I'm still waiting for your answer on the stuff I asked...school board, you living in an economically disadvantaged community, your kids going to impoverished schools...all the things you say are meaningless to success...yet you haven't answered the question of whether you'd swap places.

Would you?


And what do most of those people who live in these type of conditions have in common--a lack of discipline to find a way out of these type of trying circumstances.........Good grief--I went to a public school district with kids who lived in section 8 housing as well as kids who lived on the golf course. Some of my poorer friends did well for themselves, one of my friends is now an airline pilot with continental--and some of the well off friends are still back in Dover, waiting for their old man to die so they can inherit the Pizza shop.......You know WHY I would accept your offer--because I have discipline and a solid work ethic--discipline that I got from watching my father, listening to some of my teachers and joining the USAF reserve.--I would know how to keep my nose to the grind stone and do without now, so I can have later. Without discipline and proper role models---the impoverished will remain just that--no program will be succesful without implementing discipline and a work ethic. And it has to start with the current generation------

[broncofan7]

Actually I'm not denouncing you at all. I do not blame anyone living in the Matrix for not recognizing its existence. By very definition...it's subtlties exist outside the conscious awareness of most of its inhabitants. That said, despite your inability to connect context with singular episodes or exaples of racism...something you yourself stated was outside your interest...the practical impact of this is not unlike opening a 400 page book to page 238 and reading a paragrah, then what the relevance is.

As for bf7...it's fairly obvious that by overwhelmingly focusing on the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule...the faulty and ironic issue of "white genocide" for example, and then protesting when others call if for what it is...he will trigger attacks. Conversely...my approach is to state my POV, offer reasons for it, introduce solutions I see for questions people such as yourself have posed, and argue that in the end, the point behind founding this country in the first place was to introduce a new experiment...one based on equality rather than bias. By questioning the likely success of potential solutions, my opponents suggest these actions should be ignored. In truth...from a moral perspective, it doesn't matter if black kids are more likely to succeed with adequate resources and fair treatment of not...it's immoral to deny one community the public resources offered another, especially given the hundreds of years of abuses we have on our hands.

So what do you call the systematic killing of white farmers in africa? You live in this complete fantasy world where only white males are oppressors......

[footstepsfrom#27]

So what do you call the systematic killing of white farmers in africa? You live in this complete fantasy world where only white males are oppressors......
Well I would call them murders...but defining them as "genocide" is a stretch. First of all, you need to define what you mean by the term. "Genocide" is a legal term created in the 1940's and adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in the early '50's. It's definition is sometimes postulated beyond this definition and alleged to be limited as a political buzz word, but the legally recognized definition, which is essentially accepted by virtually every recognized organizational or legal body thoughout the world, including the one you quote...is as follows;

"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Genocide is typically identified as an organized, political, racial, ethnic, social or religious initiative, usually state sponsored, and carried out in large enough numbers to warrant inclusion within the parameters stated above..."physical destruction" being the optimal word here...in other words, violence rises to the level of genocide when it beocomes an organized, systematic attempt at exterminating a group of people by a political entity or an agent of such, and that typically results in widespread use resulting in large numbers of victims.

Your inclusion of "White Genocide" in S. Africa is referenced by the human rights group, Genocide Watch, but GW actually has not included this as genocide in their latest research. In 2008 GW published their list of over 70 nations considered "at risk" (http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Risk1_08_11_01_Countries_at_Risk_2008.pdf) and S. Africa was not even mentioned on the list. GW does include S. Afica on it's list of countries engaging in "politicide", it's term for a lower level of violence but lists the violence against white farmers since 1996 as "hate crimes", not "genocide" (http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Genocide_08_Genocides_and_Politicides_since_1945_w ith_stages_in_2008.pdf). GW ranks 8 levels or stages of genocide with level 8 being full fledged genocide, and considers the S. African violence against blacks, not whites as level 4...halfway to full genocide.

Estimates on the number of white farmers killed vary since the country was turned over to black rule in 1994. GW has estimated that 1,000 have been killed. Other estimates place it at around 3,000 or so, a figure quoted by the S. African white blog Censorbugbear and that stretches over 15 years, or roughly about 200 murders per year. This however, is in a country with 50 murders a day, meaning that around 1 murder every 2 days in S. Africa has been targeting white S. African farmers, or approximately 1% of the total number of murders. Whites of various Euro heritage make up a little less than 20% of the population, nearly 20 times that number if you're looking for representation to the population at large.

Genocide Watch Director Greg Stanton has been listed on some white S. African weblogs and internet sites as "the top expert in the world" on genocidel, a statement I would dispute having been researching genocide for over a year...frankly I've seen his name arise only a few times. Much of the rhetoric over white genocide in S. Africa has to do with statements made in 2002 by Stanton, who chronicled at that time 1,000 deaths of white S. African farmers. Making this deceiving is the fact that Stanton arbitrarily separates white farmers from other whites, listing their numbers as roughly 45,000, which is why he considers the murder of 1,000 or 1 in 45 to approach genocidal consideration. This ignores the fact that S. Africa has roughly 10 million whites or euro-ethnics residing in the country. Basically 1 white S. African in every 10,000 has been murdered, 1 in 3300 if you take the higher figure as valid...still far below genocidal numbers in other places.

Genocide Watch appears to be probably the only human rights organization in the world right now that's mentioning the killing of S. African whites as genocide. Human Rights Watch has used the term "farm attacks" to describe violence against white farmers and says it is not organized by the government or UNC proxies, but is random, based mostly on poor blacks retaliating haphazardly against white land owners who they perceive as the cause of past attrocities against them. A S. African police inquiry in 2001 found that approximately 61% of attacks against farmers were against whites, meaning the ethnicity of the farmer was probably less responsible for the attack than it was thought to be. In 2004 former S. African journalist Jani Allen accused the government of genocidal attacks on white farmers, but her accusations were disputed and scoffed at by Herman Giliomee, himself a (white) Afrikaner intellectual who stated that no evidence existed to support the presense of an organized initiative to destroy whites.

When compared against the huge numbers of legitimate genocidal patterns such as Rwanda's 1.5 million deaths or the estimated 400,000 in the Sudan, the 3,000 or so white S. African murders spread over the last 15 years do not approach the kind of numbers we see in true genocides. That doesn't mean they're not tragic and unfortunate, but it's a major stretch to consider them genocide, which is probably why I've heard of no other genocide watch group taking this position. A search of Guidstar, the online database search tool for NPO's receiving in excess of $500,000 in public donations annually, shows 119 US based organizations working in the field, but does not list Genocide Watch, meaning the organizatin is to small to make the list. In and of itself that's not entirely a predictor of credibility, but coupled with everything else I'd say GW...actually Director Stanton...should be taken with something of a grain of salt. It might be worth noting that he is one of only three board members...and one of the others is white S. African minister Lonnie Turner.

One last thing...I think your YouTube video of Nelson Mandela supposedly singing in the S. African dialect Xhosa about killing whites...is probably bogus. Aside from former defense minister Ronnie Kasrils (who is Jewish) standing next to Mandela, if you look closely you'll see at least two other whites in the video. Unless you speak Xhosa...I doubt you do...you don't know what was said. The web is deluged with references to the video...I found a couple of comments claiming the video interpretation was false, whether true or not is unknown...but it's likely that if Mandela actually said any of that, it would have made international headlines, and not been restricted to some guy posting it on YouTube.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You know WHY I would accept your offer--because I have discipline and a solid work ethic--discipline that I got from watching my father, listening to some of my teachers and joining the USAF reserve.--I would know how to keep my nose to the grind stone and do without now, so I can have later.
So when do you plan on doing this, and when can we expect your report?

[broncocalijohn]

You've never spent much time up there have you?

Your argument is similar to the one used by white slave owners 200 years ago.; basically it's, "They're better off here than they would be in Africa."

At the end of the day...it matters not whether "minorities" (a hugely broad term that builds an unsubstantiated claim) are "better off" here...the question you should ask is why we are treating people differently than our founding principles said we were supposed to.

I'm still waiting for your answer on the stuff I asked...school board, you living in an economically disadvantaged community, your kids going to impoverished schools...all the things you say are meaningless to success...yet you haven't answered the question of whether you'd swap places.

Would you?

Why would someone swap places where the kids dont care, parents dont care, teachers are babysitting because of non discipline they receive at home, etc. I would start there before going into items like if the school is rundown. You asked why dont we just go to our school boards and ask them to donate 40% to these impoverished schools. You have got to be nuts or live in Utopia (which is the same thing). In Calif., 40% of the state budget has to go to education. Even my wife's district, which is pretty tight, is laying off teachers. If you want your local district to "donate" to these schools, then be prepared to help the board out on their recall election they will be fighting! You think all public services should be equal. What planet you live on? You think I need a ton of cops in my town that has placed in the top 12 of safest cities the last few years? You can keep throwing money at these schools (and keep paying the Los Angeles School District teachers 35% over the national norm) and you wont get the results. California spends a ton of money on education and it doesnt work. You think it is some question of what came first the chicken or the egg. Once these impoverished communities put pride and family unit as a priority, there cant be success at the levels of school. Why do we coddle those societies that cant fend for themselves when prime examples of boat people coming over to the same state and succeed in our society in one or two generations? Its work ethic and family unity. Also, the chance in the USA to succeed. No excuses, just results.

[broncofan7]

Why would someone swap places where the kids dont care, parents dont care, teachers are babysitting because of non discipline they receive at home, etc. I would start there before going into items like if the school is rundown. You asked why dont we just go to our school boards and ask them to donate 40% to these impoverished schools. You have got to be nuts or live in Utopia (which is the same thing). In Calif., 40% of the state budget has to go to education. Even my wife's district, which is pretty tight, is laying off teachers. If you want your local district to "donate" to these schools, then be prepared to help the board out on their recall election they will be fighting! You think all public services should be equal. What planet you live on? You think I need a ton of cops in my town that has placed in the top 12 of safest cities the last few years? You can keep throwing money at these schools (and keep paying the Los Angeles School District teachers 35% over the national norm) and you wont get the results. California spends a ton of money on education and it doesnt work. You think it is some question of what came first the chicken or the egg. Once these impoverished communities put pride and family unit as a priority, there cant be success at the levels of school. Why do we coddle those societies that cant fend for themselves when prime examples of boat people coming over to the same state and succeed in our society in one or two generations? Its work ethic and family unity. Also, the chance in the USA to succeed. No excuses, just results.

REP.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Is BF7 really Pat Buchanan?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/a-brief-for-pat-buchanan_b_211146.html

"Buchanan's philosophy appears to be that any minority, ethnic or racial, is only advanced due to the oppression of white men. In other words, it's Buchanan's opinion that minorities aren't generally capable of success based upon their own quality. He seems to be suggesting (and not for the first time) that either minorities conspire to promote other minorities, or a minority is promoted via "Jim Crow Liberalism," as he's called it, on the oppressed shoulders of white men. Backdoor white supremacy, in the latter case -- whites are the dominant race, his theory goes, even when they're being dominated."

[broncofan7]

Is BF7 really Pat Buchanan?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/a-brief-for-pat-buchanan_b_211146.html

"Buchanan's philosophy appears to be that any minority, ethnic or racial, is only advanced due to the oppression of white men. In other words, it's Buchanan's opinion that minorities aren't generally capable of success based upon their own quality. He seems to be suggesting (and not for the first time) that either minorities conspire to promote other minorities, or a minority is promoted via "Jim Crow Liberalism," as he's called it, on the oppressed shoulders of white men. Backdoor white supremacy, in the latter case -- whites are the dominant race, his theory goes, even when they're being dominated."

LOL--what does this even mean? Hilarious!

EDIT: And whites are being dominated? At what? LOL Please enlighten all of us 'racist whites'........

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

LOL--what does this even mean? Hilarious!

EDIT: And whites are being dominated? At what? LOL Please enlighten all of us 'racist whites'........

You'd have to actually read the article. I know, I know... it's long and contains lots of words, but... I still have faith that you can do it.

Go get 'em, tiger. :thumbs:

[broncofan7]

You'd have to actually read the article. I know, I know... it's long and contains lots of words, but... I still have faith that you can do it.

Go get 'em, tiger. :thumbs:

You apparently thought it worthy of posting in this thread--please explain how or what 'whites are being dominated in'? That statement alone is racist, yet you chose to post it as somehow proving some point of yours that I am infact racist............oh the irony........

[footstepsfrom#27]

Why would someone swap places where the kids dont care, parents dont care, teachers are babysitting because of non discipline they receive at home, etc. I would start there before going into items like if the school is rundown. You asked why dont we just go to our school boards and ask them to donate 40% to these impoverished schools. You have got to be nuts or live in Utopia (which is the same thing).
I suppose this is what I get for assuming you knew this hypothetical was meant to prove my point...that nobody would do this. Of course, bf7 says he would...but he wouldn't.

Here's the point...for all the yapping about personal responsibility, etc...nobody would swap places with anyone trapped in poverty, much less place their kids in a situation where they didn't have the advantages they have now. As the saying goes... talk is cheap.
Why do we coddle those societies that cant fend for themselves when prime examples of boat people coming over to the same state and succeed in our society in one or two generations? Its work ethic and family unity. Also, the chance in the USA to succeed. No excuses, just results.
By "coddle", you mean allowing them access to the same PUBLIC SERVICES thay you have...nice call.

Also..."boat people"?...you're example, like your thinking, is pretty much stuck in the '70's. See my earlier post for why Asians imigrants who come here are more successful...I would have thought it was obvious...apparently not.

[footstepsfrom#27]

REP.
What?...nothing about "white genocide" now?

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

You apparently thought it worthy of posting in this thread--please explain how or what 'whites are being dominated in'? That statement alone is racist, yet you chose to post it as somehow proving some point of yours that I am infact racist............oh the irony........

Riiiiight. Everyone's racist but you. We got the memo.

[broncocalijohn]

I suppose this is what I get for assuming you knew this hypothetical was meant to prove my point...that nobody would do this. Of course, bf7 says he would...but he wouldn't.

Here's the point...for all the yapping about personal responsibility, etc...nobody would swap places with anyone trapped in poverty, much less place their kids in a situation where they didn't have the advantages they have now. As the saying goes... talk is cheap.

By "coddle", you mean allowing them access to the same PUBLIC SERVICES thay you have...nice call.

Also..."boat people"?...you're example, like your thinking, is pretty much stuck in the '70's. See my earlier post for why Asians imigrants who come here are more successful...I would have thought it was obvious...apparently not.

Nobody would swap because they worked hard enough to establish their lifestyle now. If I was "stuck" in someone's home. I would look around and think that I can do better and start with what is wrong at home. Why should anyone do that? It is like the libs telling those that support the war to go and become soldiers and fight side by side. With that logic, all the people that want free health care, money thrown to medical institutions should then become doctors. I mean if you are against cancer, you better become a doctor. As in coddling, should i USE those same PUBLIC SERVICES like welfare, WIC, free lunches at school, discounted public transportation (we pay for those services for the poor to have those services!), police (over use and using them for personal use) and of course free medical. How about those that can afford (or those that struggle) to put their child in private schools based on the failure of the public schools? Those dont oppt out of paying for those failing schools. I dont want my government to be the big nipple of the country. Trust me, the poor are getting their plenty in public services. Add up of what they pay and then see what they get and you have a pretty good idea of what the middle and upper class pays to protect and provide for the poor. It isnt rocket science. As for "boat people". Sorry, but I missed one of those lectures by you in the past of this thread. What is 70s thinking? What on earth did people do before the unsuccessful Lyndon B. Johnson way of thinking and his Great Society mess get us?