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epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 09:59 AM
I saw in the favorite tv show thread that there are a bunch of Lost fans here at orangemane.

I take it that many of you saw the season finale episodes.

What is your take on what happened? Alot of new angles were introduced, and two new (or in Jacobs case, barely known) characters were covered: Jacob and the other guy that were on the island for an indeterminant amount of time before the modern crew arrived. Is the new guy a symbolic character referring to Esau of the patriarchal story of Jacob and Esau?

SureShot
05-27-2009, 10:00 AM
Damn I thought this was going to be a Dallas Mavericks thread.

kamakazi_kal
05-27-2009, 10:00 AM
you should post a warning !!!!
I'm finishing season 4 ..... I'm also gonna stay away from this thread due to the threat of spoiler posting bastards

Beantown Bronco
05-27-2009, 10:07 AM
Normally, I'd give someone a hard time for posting spoilers without a warning, but the season finale was a few weeks ago now. It's not like it was on last night.

Combine that with the fact that it's pretty much impossible to have even a hint of a conversation about that show without spoiling something, and you have to assume that if you click on this thread, you're probably going to be subject to spoilers.

Game on I say.

epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 10:08 AM
you should post a warning !!!!
I'm finishing season 4 ..... I'm also gonna stay away from this thread due to the threat of spoiler posting bastards


Will do.

SoDak Bronco
05-27-2009, 10:11 AM
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html

This guy has all the theories and then some. If you don't read his weekly recaps, you should. Some of these theories are over my head, I enjoy the drama, and still want to know one thing. Where did the Polar Bears come from?

Grumps
05-27-2009, 10:13 AM
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html

This guy has all the theories and then some. If you don't read his weekly recaps, you should. Some of these theories are over my head, I enjoy the drama, and still want to know one thing. Where did the Polar Bears come from?

I assumed (bad on my part, I guess) that they were a part of the experiments the Dharma Initiative were performing on animals.

Thanks for the link, I will have to check it out.

The series finale was great. The writer's really turned it up this season.

DeusExManning
05-27-2009, 10:31 AM
I am just looking for a loophole

BroncoBuff
05-27-2009, 11:25 AM
Where did the Polar Bears come from?
When the Island was located in an Arctic latitude dude.

Doggcow
05-27-2009, 11:28 AM
Aliens.

Pseudofool
05-27-2009, 11:28 AM
The big mystery is who the heck is walking around as John Locke? That's hardly the last we've seen of "Jacob," but I have questions whether or not he's actually who we think he is.

I think next season, we'll see two time lines 1) If the bomb worked and undid the past, so we'll follow what would have happened to the characters if they never arrived on the island 2) the bomb doesn't work and just transports everyone back to their normal time (Miles theory, that the bomb actually causes the problems that lead to the plane crash).

I think the tensions in the final season will revolve around pro-smoke monster people (or people who are actually smoke mosters), along with a slow reveal the definitive nature of the island.

I honestly didn't care for the past two or three seasons. It's become so much more convoluted as it's sallied-forth.

BSG doesn't have the following that LOST has but it's by far the better cliff-hanger, complicated sci-fi drama.

Pseudofool
05-27-2009, 11:31 AM
Where did the Polar Bears come from?They were brought there by the Dharma Initiative people for whatever scientific reason.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-27-2009, 11:53 AM
Me thinks Jacob's adversary is the smoke monster. Shapeshifter.

I just wanna know two things. Why this island and why these people (the ones on the original crash) I hope those questions get answered

CHANGSTER
05-27-2009, 12:02 PM
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html

This guy has all the theories and then some. If you don't read his weekly recaps, you should. Some of these theories are over my head, I enjoy the drama, and still want to know one thing. Where did the Polar Bears come from?

I have the impression that they were used to spin the wheel that moves the island, because of the cold temperatures. No clue where I got that from though.

CHANGSTER
05-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Me thinks Jacob's adversary is the smoke monster. Shapeshifter.

I just wanna know two things. Why this island and why these people (the ones on the original crash) I hope those questions get answered

Yep, Jacobs adversary in the black shirt is the smoke monster, Lock and every other dead person who has ever reappeared on the show imo. Jacks father for example.

epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 12:07 PM
The big mystery is who the heck is walking around as John Locke? That's hardly the last we've seen of "Jacob," but I have questions whether or not he's actually who we think he is.

I think next season, we'll see two time lines 1) If the bomb worked and undid the past, so we'll follow what would have happened to the characters if they never arrived on the island 2) the bomb doesn't work and just transports everyone back to their normal time (Miles theory, that the bomb actually causes the problems that lead to the plane crash).

I think the tensions in the final season will revolve around pro-smoke monster people (or people who are actually smoke mosters), along with a slow reveal the definitive nature of the island.

I honestly didn't care for the past two or three seasons. It's become so much more convoluted as it's sallied-forth.

BSG doesn't have the following that LOST has but it's by far the better cliff-hanger, complicated sci-fi drama.

Not bad ideas in regards to the plotlines.

Somehow, Jacob and the new guy have to be worked in. Are you insinuating that the new guy (not Jacob) is somehow tied in with the smoke monster?

TonyR
05-27-2009, 12:23 PM
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html


Thanks for posting, that was REALLY good. Every fan of the show should read this in its entirety. Great stuff.

R8R H8R
05-27-2009, 12:28 PM
Not bad ideas in regards to the plotlines.

Somehow, Jacob and the new guy have to be worked in. Are you insinuating that the new guy (not Jacob) is somehow tied in with the smoke monster?


I think so. Remember when Ben went to the smoke monster to be "judged"? Alex(his daughter) appears immediately afterward and tells him to not hurt Locke and do what he says. So this guy in black, I'll call him anti-Jacob, is probably the smoke monster as well as the "dead" characters that keep reappearing.

epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Not bad ideas in regards to the plotlines.

Somehow, Jacob and the new guy have to be worked in. Are you insinuating that the new guy (not Jacob) is somehow tied in with the smoke monster?


I think so. Remember when Ben went to the smoke monster to be "judged"? Alex(his daughter) appears immediately afterward and tells him to not hurt Locke and do what he says. So this guy in black, I'll call him anti-Jacob, is probably the smoke monster as well as the "dead" characters that keep reappearing.


Okay.

So what about Claire?

LittleFloyd
05-27-2009, 12:58 PM
I saw in the favorite tv show thread that there are a bunch of Lost fans here at orangemane.

I take it that many of you saw the season finale episodes.

What is your take on what happened? Alot of new angles were introduced, and two new (or in Jacobs case, barely known) characters were covered: Jacob and the other guy that were on the island for an indeterminant amount of time before the modern crew arrived. Is the new guy a symbolic character referring to Esau of the patriarchal story of Jacob and Esau?

Here is my thought on who the other guy is. Remember he said to Jacob with the sail ship was seen that, someday I'm going to kill you. Well, who killed Jacob? It was Ben Linus, thus Ben is actually the "other guy" come back to kill Jacob.

Grumps
05-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Here is my thought on who the other guy is. Remember he said to Jacob with the sail ship was seen that, someday I'm going to kill you. Well, who killed Jacob? It was Ben Linus, thus Ben is actually the "other guy" come back to kill Jacob.

No, I don't think so. The way I got it was the other guy manipulated the situation to achieve Jacob's death through Ben Linus. New Locke is the "other guy", Linus was the loophole in achieving Jacob's death (since the other guy couldn't do it himself).

I see this guy as the devil...manipulating people into doing evil things (war, strife, fighting, lying, etc). He is the temptor. The theme has been full of religious over-tones forever now. He manipulated Locke and Ben into position to kill Jacob.

epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 01:18 PM
No, I don't think so. The way I got it was the other guy manipulated the situation to achieve Jacob's death through Ben Linus. New Locke is the "other guy", Linus was the loophole in achieving Jacob's death (since the other guy couldn't do it himself).

I see this guy as the devil...manipulating people into doing evil things (war, strife, fighting, lying, etc). He is the temptor. The theme has been full of religious over-tones forever now. He manipulated Locke and Ben into position to kill Jacob.


Not just religious overtones, but philosophical. I have yet to see a full philosophical analysis of the show, but the roots go almost as deep as did the original Matrix movie with archetypal characters, interactions, and symbolic events. The characters in Lost are given philosophically relevant names and stories. I would love to see a solid analysis of this, as I believe that it is what makes the show interesting.

As for Ben Linus, I believe that he called himself a professional "liar" in the last episode. In Judeo-Christian tradition, the great liar is none other than Satan himself.

Rohirrim
05-27-2009, 01:19 PM
I'll bet the first episode of next season they're all sitting on Oceanic flight 815.

BroncoFiend
05-27-2009, 01:51 PM
No, I don't think so. The way I got it was the other guy manipulated the situation to achieve Jacob's death through Ben Linus. New Locke is the "other guy", Linus was the loophole in achieving Jacob's death (since the other guy couldn't do it himself).

I see this guy as the devil...manipulating people into doing evil things (war, strife, fighting, lying, etc). He is the temptor. The theme has been full of religious over-tones forever now. He manipulated Locke and Ben into position to kill Jacob.


Very interesting theory, they did give Jacob a very Jesus-like persona. With the other guy obviously full of hate and fear.

epicSocialism4tw
05-27-2009, 02:06 PM
Very interesting theory, they did give Jacob a very Jesus-like persona. With the other guy obviously full of hate and fear.

I fully expect Jacob to come back to life, and to save Ben in doing so. I think that their relationship is supposed to represent the relationship of man and God. Ben never sees him, does what he says without asking, doesnt understand why he has to do some things, is resentful over Jacobs relationship with others (Locke, etc), and ultimately becomes angry at him and "kills" him. Jacob stepped into the knife. Jesus willingly went to the cross. Just as Jesus knew what was coming, I expect that Jacob did as well (he was waiting for them when they entered the room). I think that Jacob carries some of the Jesus symbolism.

Kid A
05-27-2009, 02:13 PM
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html

This guy has all the theories and then some. If you don't read his weekly recaps, you should. Some of these theories are over my head, I enjoy the drama, and still want to know one thing. Where did the Polar Bears come from?

Seconded. Jeff Jenson's analysis is always interesting to read afterward. He definitly spends some time looking into every possible reference/clue.

I'm on board with the idea of Jacob's rival being all the dead people we've seen. It makes perfect sense with Ben's daughter and Jack's dad, both who have been instructing characters along paths that lead to him being able to kill Jacob.

McSkillet is right, Claire is a very interesting question (I believe we saw her last season with undead Jack's dad). My guess is that she wasn't dead then (or maybe ever). All we know is that she was lured out into the jungle by Christian. They didn't discuss that mystery much this season, but Kate was going back to save her so I assume that will come to a head next year.

Kid A
05-27-2009, 02:16 PM
This is a copy of my post from the previous LOST thread. BroncoBuff mentioned the theme of free-will as it pertains to the story:

Jacob did seem to be in support of free will when he met Hurley ("it's your choice") and even before Ben killed him ("you can choose to do this or not"). So, Buff, I think there may still be some free will at play here.

Another part worth noting is a couple episodes back when Farraday said his calculation (which initially said you can't change the future) had left out one variable: the human element. Humans are the wildcard, and the can often change their minds (i.e. free will), changing things.

I believe that is a crucial theme from here on out. We saw it dramatically in this finale with Juliette suddenly changing positions on the whole let-Jack-set-off-a-hydrogen-bomb thing. That changed everything, and I believe she did change the course of history at the very end by setting it off.

On an unrelated note, I think a large portion of the last season will be devoted to showing just how this chess game of sorts was played out between Jacob and his Enemy. Right before killing Jacob, Enemy/Locke tells him "you have no idea how much I did to get to this point," which implies much of the show has been a setup by this guy to get to Jacob.

Jacob, though, seems at peace at the end and says "they're coming" which seems to piss off Enemy/Locke, as though Jacob has been putting his pieces in place all along as well. As seen through the constant black and white symbolism (remember all the backgammon with Locke and Walt early on?), I think our castaways have been the pawns in the middle of a battle between a couple gods/higher beings.

SoDak Bronco
05-27-2009, 02:56 PM
http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2009/05/lost-the-secret.html

Pseudofool
05-27-2009, 04:08 PM
I think there's multiple smoke monsters who inhabit bodies (both living and dead evidently) or take their form. The smoke monsters must continually have a new crop of hosts, and evidently they are choosey. Given all the old idolatry and ancient temples, I don't doubt there was a religion built around these creatures and their need for human hosts. That's my two cents, anyways.

Kid A
05-27-2009, 04:20 PM
http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2009/05/lost-the-secret.html

hmmm.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/taweret.htm

Taweret (Taueret, Taurt, Toeris, Ipy, Ipet, Apet, Opet, Reret) - The Great Female - was the ancient Egyptian goddess of maternity and childbirth, protector of women and children. Like Bes, she was both a fierce demonic fighter as well as a popular deity who guarded the mother and her newborn child...

In the Book of the Dead Taweret, the 'Lady of Magical Protection', was seen as a goddess who guided the dead into the afterlife. As with her double nature of protector and guardian, she was also a guard to the mountains of the west where the deceased entered the land of the dead. Many of the deities relating to birth also appear in the underworld to help with the rebirth of the souls into their life after death.

Definitely some thematic parallels there, especially with the childbirth.

Also found this interesting:

Plutarch described Taweret as a concubine of Set who had changed her ways to become a follower of Horus. In this form, she was linked to the goddess Isis. It was thought that the goddess kept Set's powers of evil fettered by a chain.

There has been speculation (by Jenson in particular) that Jacob and his rival are (or at least represent) Horus and Set, the warring deities of Egyptian mythology.

Rohirrim
05-27-2009, 05:35 PM
Nope. The island is what's left of Atlantis. ;D

epicSocialism4tw
05-28-2009, 02:18 PM
hmmm.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/taweret.htm



Definitely some thematic parallels there, especially with the childbirth.

Also found this interesting:



There has been speculation (by Jenson in particular) that Jacob and his rival are (or at least represent) Horus and Set, the warring deities of Egyptian mythology.

Could the destruction of the statue (by the time 815 arrives, it is only a foot) be a part of the symbolic or actual removal of the protective god of childbirth from the island? Which is why childbirth is not possible on the island in cases of indigenous people? If so, there should be many hints througout the previous episodes as to what is going on in the next season.

R8R H8R
05-28-2009, 05:37 PM
Okay.

So what about Claire?

We don't know that Claire is dead yet. I suspect that we'll find out soon enough in season 6.

Also, it appears that anti-Jacob does not need someone to be dead to impersonate them. Remember when Walt helped Locke late in season 4 when Ben left him for dead on the pile of DI bodies? Walt was alive and well when that happened.

Bronco X
05-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Don't think Claire is dead. If they're going to kill off a character they have to give them a proper death scene. It's why I never thought Jin was dead... even though you see the freighter blow up, you don't see Jin for several seconds before it goes. Claire got less than that. She just up and disappeared. We saw her trompin' around with Christian in the cabin, which apparently was NOT occupied by Jacob. At this point it seems more likely that it was Jacob's nemesis occupying the cabin.

I agree this nemesis either is or in control of smokie. It's been established that smokie can manifest itself into apparitions of the dead (the two confirmed cases are Eko's brother and Alex)... so this could explain the second Locke, though he seemed pretty solid and tangible for a smokie manifestation (only Lost can get us talking in terms like this). Let's see if they ever really provide a good explanation for this.

I love LOST but I thought the last few episodes of season 5 were kind of weak. I loved the first half of the season, but I'm not terribly excited about the direction they seem to be taking the show. In the season finale, I loved the stuff about Jacob (the opening scene was AWESOME), but the whole jughead storyline was incredibly contrived.

Obviously they needed jughead to blow to set up whatever they are doing with season 6, and at this point it's impossible to guess where they are going with it. If it did alter the timeline obviously there will be complications... but the show centers around the island and they've backed themselves into a bit of a corner to explain how the bomb didn't destroy the island.

But getting back to the jughead story, the writing was incredibly lazy in how it got all the characters to agree that the thing to do was blow up an H-bomb. One one hand it's kind of admirably ambitious that the showrunners would try to get the audience to root for a bunch of people to set off a nuke, but they couldn't pull it off. I wasn't convinced by anyones motivations for going along with it. Not Jack's, not Faraday, and certainly not Juliet, Sawyer and Kate who had to flop like a pancake.

Miles brought up the obvious point that they could be creating the very thing they are trying to prevent, but beyond that there's a real stretch in logic that the plan would work. They apparently had the notion that when they blow it up they'd suddenly wake up in LAX, before their plan crashed. Or at least that's what certain lines seemed to imply. But a more logical model of space-time manipulation would state that they'd all die at that point, and there would be an alternate timeline where these people would have never crashed, with no memory of the island or the fellow survivors (because it never happened for them). The overall point is, there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty over whether or not this plan would work. There's not much logic to it.

And the key action they need to take is detonating a freakin' H-BOMB. I mean, setting off a nuclear weapon is generally thought to have big consequences. Yet not a single character displayed the slightest bit of concern over this. It made the flip flopping that much more baffling. It's a nutty plan to begin with but soon enough everyone just goes along with it, consequences be damned!

Of course, I'm willing to see what they do with the aftermath in season 6, and if it's interesting I'll be fine with it, but the lead up in season 5 was just weak all around.

R8R H8R
05-28-2009, 08:35 PM
Obviously they needed jughead to blow to set up whatever they are doing with season 6, and at this point it's impossible to guess where they are going with it. If it did alter the timeline obviously there will be complications... but the show centers around the island and they've backed themselves into a bit of a corner to explain how the bomb didn't destroy the island.


I agree with your premise if the bomb blows. However, I am not completely convinced that it did. Sure, the last scene let us to believe it did, but think about it.
Was there visual evidence or a loud boom? No. What we got is just that white light after Juliet kept tapping the bomb with her shoe. That is the same white light that ended season two(?) when Desmond turned the fail-safe key. No one died that I remember.


Of course, I'm willing to see what they do with the aftermath in season 6, and if it's interesting I'll be fine with it, but the lead up in season 5 was just weak all around.

I agree with most of your arguments, but I am OK with the lead up to the finale. This show has a long history (going back to the pilot) of having characters that just go along with anything the Island has to offer, without questioning the sense or logic in it. So I am used to it.
However, with that being said, I actually think this season was the best season since 1&2, imo.

R8R H8R
05-28-2009, 08:47 PM
Could the destruction of the statue (by the time 815 arrives, it is only a foot) be a part of the symbolic or actual removal of the protective god of childbirth from the island? Which is why childbirth is not possible on the island in cases of indigenous people? If so, there should be many hints througout the previous episodes as to what is going on in the next season.

Could be, but I don't know how the island could be so selective concerning the childbirths. The two successful births was Alex that was conceived off the island, but delivered on it; and Sun's baby that was conceived on the island, but delivered off it. Very confusing, but should be explained next season.

Bronco X
05-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I agree with most of your arguments, but I am OK with the lead up to the finale. This show has a long history (going back to the pilot) of having characters that just go along with anything the Island has to offer, without questioning the sense or logic in it. So I am used to it.
However, with that being said, I actually think this season was the best season since 1&2, imo.

True, but before at least there'd be some conflicts. Locke would want to stop pushing the button but Eko wanted to keep pushing it, Locke wants everyone to stay on the island but Jack wants to get everyone off, etc. Here everyone gets on board even while there was some initial conflict established (Sawyer, Juliet and Kate hijack a sub to get back on the island to stop Jack, only to change their mind when they get there?).

But obviously the bomb was important to where the story is headed. It's a bit of a cop out to have it not go off but it's hard to imagine where the story will go if it did.

One thing I was hoping they would do with the season 5 finale, especially after I learned it would be called "The Incident", was explain more about what led to the fail safe protocol of entering the numbers every 108 minutes. Don't know if they will revisit that in season 6 but I was hoping it'd turn out that Hurley was responsible for having those particular numbers be the fail safe code.

R8R H8R
05-28-2009, 10:31 PM
One thing I was hoping they would do with the season 5 finale, especially after I learned it would be called "The Incident", was explain more about what led to the fail safe protocol of entering the numbers every 108 minutes. Don't know if they will revisit that in season 6 but I was hoping it'd turn out that Hurley was responsible for having those particular numbers be the fail safe code.

If I understand your statement correctly, they already explained this. Remember when Hurley and Miles were in the van and drove up to the construction of the Swan(?), and Hurley finishes the numbers that one of the foreman was shouting out, and Miles is astonished that Hurley knew the rest of the numbers before the foreman could shout them?

The code, or numbers, is nothing more than the serial number for the Swan(?) hatch, which Hurley saw on the hatch door in season 2 I think. Also, I think if you add up all the numbers, it adds up to 108.

anton
05-28-2009, 10:53 PM
For hardcore LOST fans, here is my theory on the finale that I have posted on another site:

Here is my theory that I have been working on since the finale: (make sure you read the second part as that is where things get more interesting)

Lets start with the less-interesting plot. I am a big believer in whatever happened, happened so do I think that Juliette changed time when she blew up the bomb? NO. First off that would render the entire sub-plot of the finale worthless and second off, it would make no sense. So what happened when she hit the bomb with the rock? It exploded but the explosion was "absorbed" by the pocket of energy thus reducing the size of the explosion and closing off the pocket of energy so that metal things stopped getting sucked down. Chang and Radzinsky were able to get far away so that they could live to make orientation videos and what not. The losties were in the radius of the explosion but some of them (the ones that were touched by Jacob) transported to 2007. Miles and Juliette died http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif

The area of the explosion was highly radiated so they sealed the area off with cement, built the hatch, and put QUARANTINE on the doors.

Lets go to the more interesting plot now. The writers want us to believe the following: real Locke is dead and is lieing in the coffin, and The Enemy (the guy from the beginning of the episode) has taken the form of Fake Locke and has used Ben to kill real Jacob. Ok... the writers always lead us to believe one thing and then mind f*** us later on. Here is what I am proposing:

The real Locke is not dead. He never died, he has been on the island from 2004-2007 (he was not the one to leave the island). He is the one standing in the foot of the statue with Ben and "Jacob".

So then who is the Locke laying the coffin in the suit? The Black Smoke Monster (BSM). BSM appeared to Locke when Locke was about to push the frozen donkey wheel and told him of his plan. BSM is a "pet" of The Enemy. BSM goes off the island disguised as Locke, while real Locke chills on the island (perhaps with The Enemy). What is BSM's purpose off the island:

1. get the idea into everyone's head that they must come back.
2. use Ben to set him over the edge and in a killing mood so that he could eventually kill Jacob. Ben would also help him by getting the losties back to the island.
3. he talked to Walt. I am not sure of the purpose of this but I think that Walt is still important. Remember Walt's dream where Locke was standing in a suit and people wanted to hurt him. I think this happens when BSM awakens as suit Locke after real Locke and Ben come out after killing "Jacob".

How about some evidence of BSM being off the island? Remember one of Jack's flashforwards when he saw his dead dad in the hospital right after the SMOKE ALARM went off? Do I think BSM made the alarm go off? NO. But I think it is a clue from the writers that Christian Shepherd has been BSM all this time and he has even been off the island (visiting Jack). How did he get off the island? By turning the wheel disguised as Locke.

Ok so BSM (and The Enemy) think that they have succeeded in finally killing Jacob. The problem for them is, however, that Locke has been on Jacob's side all along and has been playing The Enemy. When did Locke join Jacob's side? Season one when he first encountred "a" monster. We assumed it was BSM but he describes it as "a bright light" and "beautiful". After Eko sees BSM and is talking to Locke, Locke tells him off what he saw. Eko says "that is not what I saw". So what is going on? There are 2 monsters. BSM and the White Smoke Monster (WSM) that Locke saw. They are both "pets" of Jacob and The Enemy.

Lets go back to the end of the finale. BSM believes that Jacob is dead and comes alive as suit Locke. He laughs and gets everyone to want to hurt him. Little does he know that Jacob knew all about this plan from Locke and was prepared. The "Jacob" that Ben killed was really WSM in Jacob's form. You can't kill a smoke monster, so really Locke and Ben did nothing. But I think they are going to let The Enemy/BSM keep believing that they really did kill Jacob so it sets up a dramatic return of Jacob later on in season 6.

So again:
Confident Locke -------> Real Locke
Dead Locke in suit -------> BSM
Dead Jacob -------> WSM
Real Jacob and Real The Enemy ------> chilling on the island somewhere

Wheewww, so there you go. Locke is not dead and really is special (he has a purpose in life finally). Jacob is not dead either and will return later on to finish his issues with The Enemy. Christian Shepherd has been BSM all along (he was in the cabin but we know that Jacob has not been in the cabin for a long time). How this connects to other things (like Walt, Claire, Desmond, etc...) I do not know.

Well, lets hear your thoughts on this theory... I wish I put this much effort into my current writing class....
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

R8R H8R
05-29-2009, 12:34 PM
For hardcore LOST fans, here is my theory on the finale that I have posted on another site:

Here is my theory that I have been working on since the finale: (make sure you read the second part as that is where things get more interesting)

Lets start with the less-interesting plot. I am a big believer in whatever happened, happened so do I think that Juliette changed time when she blew up the bomb? NO. First off that would render the entire sub-plot of the finale worthless and second off, it would make no sense. So what happened when she hit the bomb with the rock? It exploded but the explosion was "absorbed" by the pocket of energy thus reducing the size of the explosion and closing off the pocket of energy so that metal things stopped getting sucked down. Chang and Radzinsky were able to get far away so that they could live to make orientation videos and what not. The losties were in the radius of the explosion but some of them (the ones that were touched by Jacob) transported to 2007. Miles and Juliette died http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif

The area of the explosion was highly radiated so they sealed the area off with cement, built the hatch, and put QUARANTINE on the doors.

Lets go to the more interesting plot now. The writers want us to believe the following: real Locke is dead and is lieing in the coffin, and The Enemy (the guy from the beginning of the episode) has taken the form of Fake Locke and has used Ben to kill real Jacob. Ok... the writers always lead us to believe one thing and then mind **** us later on. Here is what I am proposing:

The real Locke is not dead. He never died, he has been on the island from 2004-2007 (he was not the one to leave the island). He is the one standing in the foot of the statue with Ben and "Jacob".

So then who is the Locke laying the coffin in the suit? The Black Smoke Monster (BSM). BSM appeared to Locke when Locke was about to push the frozen donkey wheel and told him of his plan. BSM is a "pet" of The Enemy. BSM goes off the island disguised as Locke, while real Locke chills on the island (perhaps with The Enemy). What is BSM's purpose off the island:

1. get the idea into everyone's head that they must come back.
2. use Ben to set him over the edge and in a killing mood so that he could eventually kill Jacob. Ben would also help him by getting the losties back to the island.
3. he talked to Walt. I am not sure of the purpose of this but I think that Walt is still important. Remember Walt's dream where Locke was standing in a suit and people wanted to hurt him. I think this happens when BSM awakens as suit Locke after real Locke and Ben come out after killing "Jacob".

How about some evidence of BSM being off the island? Remember one of Jack's flashforwards when he saw his dead dad in the hospital right after the SMOKE ALARM went off? Do I think BSM made the alarm go off? NO. But I think it is a clue from the writers that Christian Shepherd has been BSM all this time and he has even been off the island (visiting Jack). How did he get off the island? By turning the wheel disguised as Locke.

Ok so BSM (and The Enemy) think that they have succeeded in finally killing Jacob. The problem for them is, however, that Locke has been on Jacob's side all along and has been playing The Enemy. When did Locke join Jacob's side? Season one when he first encountred "a" monster. We assumed it was BSM but he describes it as "a bright light" and "beautiful". After Eko sees BSM and is talking to Locke, Locke tells him off what he saw. Eko says "that is not what I saw". So what is going on? There are 2 monsters. BSM and the White Smoke Monster (WSM) that Locke saw. They are both "pets" of Jacob and The Enemy.

Lets go back to the end of the finale. BSM believes that Jacob is dead and comes alive as suit Locke. He laughs and gets everyone to want to hurt him. Little does he know that Jacob knew all about this plan from Locke and was prepared. The "Jacob" that Ben killed was really WSM in Jacob's form. You can't kill a smoke monster, so really Locke and Ben did nothing. But I think they are going to let The Enemy/BSM keep believing that they really did kill Jacob so it sets up a dramatic return of Jacob later on in season 6.

So again:
Confident Locke -------> Real Locke
Dead Locke in suit -------> BSM
Dead Jacob -------> WSM
Real Jacob and Real The Enemy ------> chilling on the island somewhere

Wheewww, so there you go. Locke is not dead and really is special (he has a purpose in life finally). Jacob is not dead either and will return later on to finish his issues with The Enemy. Christian Shepherd has been BSM all along (he was in the cabin but we know that Jacob has not been in the cabin for a long time). How this connects to other things (like Walt, Claire, Desmond, etc...) I do not know.

Well, lets hear your thoughts on this theory... I wish I put this much effort into my current writing class....
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Actually, your theory of two smokies makes alot of sense; I'll buy it. One question though--if Christain is BSM, where is his body? And it appears that Claire has sided with Christain since she diappeared. What's her story? OK that's 2 questions.

Also, I'm not sure about your theory as it relates to Locke and Fake Locke. You may be right since Jacob made no attempt to get out of the way of Ben's knife, but really this has gotten real complicated now. Also, if this is the real Locke and not fake Locke in the Temple, then why didn't real Locke just kill the Fake Jacob, rather than have Ben do it? Unless it is just the writers trying to blow our minds.

However, regardless of how, or if, Jacob really did die or not, I do think he gets "resurected" in season 6, one way or the other.

One last thing, if the explosion is controlled like you say, and it might be, then why did Richard tell Sun he saw them all die, instead of just disappearing like I think you are alluding to?

SonOfLe-loLang
05-29-2009, 01:34 PM
Don't think Claire is dead. If they're going to kill off a character they have to give them a proper death scene. It's why I never thought Jin was dead... even though you see the freighter blow up, you don't see Jin for several seconds before it goes. Claire got less than that. She just up and disappeared. We saw her trompin' around with Christian in the cabin, which apparently was NOT occupied by Jacob. At this point it seems more likely that it was Jacob's nemesis occupying the cabin.

I agree this nemesis either is or in control of smokie. It's been established that smokie can manifest itself into apparitions of the dead (the two confirmed cases are Eko's brother and Alex)... so this could explain the second Locke, though he seemed pretty solid and tangible for a smokie manifestation (only Lost can get us talking in terms like this). Let's see if they ever really provide a good explanation for this.

I love LOST but I thought the last few episodes of season 5 were kind of weak. I loved the first half of the season, but I'm not terribly excited about the direction they seem to be taking the show. In the season finale, I loved the stuff about Jacob (the opening scene was AWESOME), but the whole jughead storyline was incredibly contrived.

Obviously they needed jughead to blow to set up whatever they are doing with season 6, and at this point it's impossible to guess where they are going with it. If it did alter the timeline obviously there will be complications... but the show centers around the island and they've backed themselves into a bit of a corner to explain how the bomb didn't destroy the island.

But getting back to the jughead story, the writing was incredibly lazy in how it got all the characters to agree that the thing to do was blow up an H-bomb. One one hand it's kind of admirably ambitious that the showrunners would try to get the audience to root for a bunch of people to set off a nuke, but they couldn't pull it off. I wasn't convinced by anyones motivations for going along with it. Not Jack's, not Faraday, and certainly not Juliet, Sawyer and Kate who had to flop like a pancake.

Miles brought up the obvious point that they could be creating the very thing they are trying to prevent, but beyond that there's a real stretch in logic that the plan would work. They apparently had the notion that when they blow it up they'd suddenly wake up in LAX, before their plan crashed. Or at least that's what certain lines seemed to imply. But a more logical model of space-time manipulation would state that they'd all die at that point, and there would be an alternate timeline where these people would have never crashed, with no memory of the island or the fellow survivors (because it never happened for them). The overall point is, there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty over whether or not this plan would work. There's not much logic to it.

And the key action they need to take is detonating a freakin' H-BOMB. I mean, setting off a nuclear weapon is generally thought to have big consequences. Yet not a single character displayed the slightest bit of concern over this. It made the flip flopping that much more baffling. It's a nutty plan to begin with but soon enough everyone just goes along with it, consequences be damned!

Of course, I'm willing to see what they do with the aftermath in season 6, and if it's interesting I'll be fine with it, but the lead up in season 5 was just weak all around.


While I agree Lost gets lazy with writing at times, characters chimed in about the consequences of setting off an H-bomb more than once. In fact, "jack wants to set off a bomb that will kill us all" was uttered many a times. But you also have to remember here are a bunch of people that have been sent back in time! With all this new reality (which the writers made sure the characters were consistently aware of), and the fact that farraday was the one who was hellbent on setting it off (and they all seem to defer to his expertise) its not that far fetched to think that it would work. The whole experience has been beyond belief anyway.

I think a better example of lazy writing was the way they all got back to the island this season. "we need as many people on the plane to duplicate the original circumstances". THATS lazy writing because its based on bull**** (and for a show thats SO detail oriented, this was disappointing).

What worries me is that the show might stray from what it was originally about: These random people who all have a connection to each other and their place in this bizarre world. If this show becomes about a greater good vs evil and the castaways are just pawns, i think that would be wholly disappointing. I assume the castaways are the keys to this whole thing (and there's more to it than jacob simply picking them at random and touching them). I'm excited to find out what it is.

Rohirrim
05-29-2009, 02:18 PM
They are all members of the same karass.