Taxing sugar drinks too?

[That One Guy]

Tax on Benefits, Soda Among Options in Health-Care Bill Debate

The Senate Finance Committee provided an early glimpse of ways Congress might pay for the overhaul of health care President Barack Obama wants, outlining a range of options that included new taxes on employer-provided health insurance and levies on sugar-sweetened drinks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20090519/pl_bloomberg/akmzhkjisw_s


When does this stuff end?

You get to choose between Government run or private health care... but we're gonna tax your private healthcare.

We're gonna tax everything you do or enjoy...

Your friends,

The Government

[Dukes]

I laugh in the face of anyone I hear who claim we will have "free" healthcare.

[gyldenlove]

I laugh in the face of anyone I hear who claim we will have "free" healthcare.

There are no free lunches.

[Dukes]

There are no free lunches.

Very true. The sad part is I ran into at least a dozen Obama supporters voting for him because he was going to give them "free" healthcare.

[cutthemdown]

The people who get great healthcare through job will have to pay for the people who don't. It's that simple.

[loborugger]

Very true. The sad part is I ran into at least a dozen Obama supporters voting for him because he was going to give them "free" healthcare.

Well, if one has no job, pays no taxes, etc, then they will in effect get free healthcare.

But, how much is something that is "free" worth. Further, free stuff from the govt? Come on. Who the hell wants that?

[TailgateNut]

The sad part is I ran into at least a dozen Obama supporters voting for him because he was going to give them "free" healthcare.

:spit:


Were you charged/ticketed for "running into them"?


And i "ran into" quite a few Cheney supporters who were voting for him because he was an old white guy.:wiggle:

[Dukes]

And i "ran into" quite a few Cheney supporters who were voting for him because he was an old white guy.:wiggle:

You run into people in the KKK? ;D

[TailgateNut]

You run into people in the KKK/GOP? ;D

Fixed it for you.:thanku:

[55CrushEm]

Fixed it for you.:thanku:

Actually, the Dems are the ones who still have an active member of the Senate that was a KKK member......in fact, he held quite a high position within the KKK.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
- Robert Byrd

Get your facts straight......wait, you probably don't have any.

[TailgateNut]

Actually, the Dems are the ones who still have an active member of the Senate that was a KKK member......in fact, he held quite a high position within the KKK.


Get your facts straight......wait, you probably don't have any.


Speaking of facts: The ol' south is where the KKK is alive and well, and not just by coincidence is also a stronghold of the Grand Ol' Party (GOP/ aka Good Ol' Boys).

[watermock]

Speaking of facts: The ol' south is where the KKK is alive and well, and not just by coincidence is also a stronghold of the Grand Ol' Party (GOP/ aka Good Ol' Boys).

Your just wrong.

[TailgateNut]

Your just wrong.


LOL

What's a "just"?
I'd like to know, because according to you, mine is wrong.

[55CrushEm]

LOL

What's a "just"?
I'd like to know, because according to you, mine is wrong.

Well, it seems apparent you believe that if a Repub is a KKK member, then they're clearly racist.....but if a Dem is a racist, then it's somehow excusable.

Just one example of hundreds explaining how liberals like you are the party of hypocrisy and double-standards.

[Bob]

But dispite the (KKK) distractions and diversions the truth is the path we are on, is death by a thousand paper cuts.

Although soda is not "good" for us, the more the government tries to do for us, the more it will think it has the "right" to tell us what to eat, where to live, what to drive, how much we can earn...

It starts small, but the trend is clear, and I think the intent is clear -- when Presidents start hiring and firing CEO's, that shoudl be a rad flag to R's and D's alike.... did I just type rad, instead of red?

[gyldenlove]

Actually, the Dems are the ones who still have an active member of the Senate that was a KKK member......in fact, he held quite a high position within the KKK.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
- Robert Byrd

Get your facts straight......wait, you probably don't have any.

How the hell a guy like that can be voted to office is beyond me. No other Western country would have someone openly racist like that in parlament. It is a good thing the people of West Virignia are more forgiving about character flaws then he is.

[TailgateNut]

Well, it seems apparent you believe that if a Repub is a KKK member, then they're clearly racist.....but if a Dem is a racist, then it's somehow excusable.

Just one example of hundreds explaining how liberals like you are the party of hypocrisy and double-standards.


One quick request: Please read the **** you write, and if it doesn't make sense as a response, don't post it. IE:"you believe that if a Repub is a KKK member, then they're clearly racist". WTF???

I do believe that if a repuke is a KKK member, he's clearly racist, and most likely a part of the "good ol' boy network" of racist rednecks who are almost aways repuklican.
I also believe if a Dem is racist, he's no better then a repuke who happens to be racist.

How the **** is that a double standard.

I also said that the south was a stronghold of "good ol' boys", Repukes and the KKK. Argue that FACT, with some facts!

[TailgateNut]

How the hell a guy like that can be voted to office is beyond me. No other Western country would have someone openly racist like that in parlament. It is a good thing the people of West Virignia are more forgiving about character flaws then he is.

The people in W.Virginia don't see that as a character flaw!:wiggle:

[Bob]

How the hell a guy like that can be voted to office is beyond me. No other Western country would have someone openly racist like that in parlament. It is a good thing the people of West Virignia are more forgiving about character flaws then he is.

What is sad is that club group think clouds the minds and morals of everyone who feels beholden to a party --

Sometimes it gets to the point (with some) that the end game is the only thing that matters anymore ... that's why I tried to be consistant with guys like Craig, where if a Dem had done it, I wouldnt want him in office either-- not because of the gay aspect, but if a congressman is hooking up with folks in stalls, it seems like something is wrong with the guy. If you are married, and dont want to be, get divorced first and then find a hotel room.

[55CrushEm]

One quick request: Please read the **** you write, and if it doesn't make sense as a response, don't post it. IE:"you believe that if a Repub is a KKK member, then they're clearly racist". WTF???

I do believe that if a repuke is a KKK member, he's clearly racist, and most likely a part of the "good ol' boy network" of racist rednecks who are almost aways repuklican.
I also believe if a Dem is racist, he's no better then a repuke who happens to be racist.

How the **** is that a double standard.

I also said that the south was a stronghold of "good ol' boys", Repukes and the KKK. Argue that FACT, with some facts!

It's a double standard b/c people like you don't point out when someone in your party is a racist, even thought there are many of them you could use as examples.....you just ignore it, never pointing it out. You're so party-loyal it's disgusting.....and before you say I am a party loyalist.......I don't belong to either of those ****ty parties. Both parties disgust me......the dems are pure socialists, and the repubs aren't far behind.....Bush ruined the Republican party, that's one of the reasons I left it.......

[TailgateNut]

It's a double standard b/c people like you don't point out when someone in your party is a racist, even thought there are many of them you could use as examples.....you just ignore it, never pointing it out. You're so party-loyal it's disgusting.....and before you say I am a party loyalist.......I don't belong to either of those ****ty parties. Both parties disgust me......the dems are pure socialists, and the repubs aren't far behind.....Bush ruined the Republican party, that's one of the reasons I left it.......

People like me, are just like people like you with the minor difference of not denying party loyalty. You on the other hand, along with many others want us to believe that just because you say so, that you are now, all of a sudden, an independant, although your actions and words still reek of the GOP!

[Beantown Bronco]

Back to the original point of the thread, look at what the Massachusetts House and Senate approved this week by a veto-proof margin:

25% increase in state sales tax
40% increase in state meals tax
100% increase in alcohol tax

And they're still trying to push through a 10+ cent per gallon increase in the gas tax.

Taxachusetts is back, baby!

Luckily for me, tax-free NH is only 10-15 miles away for the big ticket items.

[55CrushEm]

People like me, are just like people like you with the minor difference of not denying party loyalty. You on the other hand, along with many others want us to believe that just because you say so, that you are now, all of a sudden, an independant, although your actions and words still reek of the GOP!

You don't know the GOP, then. They're not conservative anymore.....Bush spent more than Clinton.....you, as a socialist, should be happy with that.....but no, because he wears the GOP hat, you despise him, no matter what.....

Tell me, why did you vote for Obama? Which of his policies do you like the most? Was it his policy of hope? His policy of change? Cause that's all I heard......was an empty suit campaigning on a platform of 2 words.....fortunately for him, Bush ruined the GOP (by leading them more away from conservatism), which has created very little difference between the parties. I laugh at people like you who actually think Bush was a conservative.......shows that you know nothing except the party hats.

I'm an independent, yes.....but that is not to say I'm in the middle of the 2 parties (which is what most people think it means)......not even close......independent is whatever you want it to be. I'm a conservative who is disgusted with the GOP. I'm most conservative on fiscal issues, which means I'm to the right of both parties nowadays.

[cutthemdown]

Back to the original point of the thread, look at what the Massachusetts House and Senate approved this week by a veto-proof margin:

25% increase in state sales tax
40% increase in state meals tax
100% increase in alcohol tax

And they're still trying to push through a 10+ cent per gallon increase in the gas tax.

Taxachusetts is back, baby!

Luckily for me, tax-free NH is only 10-15 miles away for the big ticket items.

Which illustrates why dems don't get it. Raising taxes can actually mean less revenue as people find ways around your tax, avoid buying things, buy from tax free states etc etc.

[55CrushEm]

Which illustrates why dems don't get it. Raising taxes can actually mean less revenue as people find ways around your tax, avoid buying things, buy from tax free states etc etc.

DING! DING! DING! Yup.....so instead of MA getting the normal 5% income tax....this 25% raise will drive more people to NH....and they will then get NOTHING!!

Higher taxes hurt/hinder economic growth....period....it's a proven fact.

[Bronco Bob]

Tax on Benefits, Soda Among Options in Health-Care Bill Debate

The Senate Finance Committee provided an early glimpse of ways Congress might pay for the overhaul of health care President Barack Obama wants, outlining a range of options that included new taxes on employer-provided health insurance and levies on sugar-sweetened drinks.

[

They probably aren't going to be getting much in the way of taxes then.
Most food conglomerates stopped using sugar in drinks years ago and
switched to that high fructose corn sweetener crap instead. I would love to
be able to buy a soda pop with real sugar in it. You can taste the difference.

[Bronco Bob]

Your just wrong.

How do you know his just is wrong?

[Bronco Bob]

Which illustrates why dems don't get it. Raising taxes can actually mean less revenue as people find ways around your tax, avoid buying things, buy from tax free states etc etc.

Sometimes the whole point of raising taxes is to get people to avoid buying
things. Such as raising the amount of taxes on cigarettes. The point isn't
to increase revenue. The point it to make it so expensive to smoke them
that people stop using cigarettes.

[Odysseus]

Actually, the Dems are the ones who still have an active member of the Senate that was a KKK member......in fact, he held quite a high position within the KKK.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
- Robert Byrd

Get your facts straight......wait, you probably don't have any.

The Democrats have a large tent which means you can literally be from anywhere and be a Democrat. Republicans are suit tie socially conservative fiscally conservative and reserved. It would be considered "rude" to actually declare anything more than a fraternal interest. I know because I have worked with the Republicans for years.

Perhaps it is you who should get your facts straight. Byrd has done more for minorities in his state than (insert a Republican) has. Be honest first then clever. It tends to work out better in the long run.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/05/sen-robert-byrd.html (See link for full post)

The issue was examined by the Washington Post in a 2005 article headlined "A Senator's Shame."

What has not been in dispute is Byrd's mea culpas. The Post piece ended with this quote from him:

"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."

-- Don Frederick

(UPDATE: Comic Jay Leno, during the monologue for his late night show Monday, broached the Byrd endorsement. "That's got to make Hillary feel good, huh? Even the Klan guy is going, 'I’m going with the black guy.'")

[Odysseus]

DING! DING! DING! Yup.....so instead of MA getting the normal 5% income tax....this 25% raise will drive more people to NH....and they will then get NOTHING!!

Higher taxes hurt/hinder economic growth....period....it's a proven fact.

If you raise the taxes on one thing they eventually buy something else. If that something else is still stateside you are not losing money because it takes time for people to figure out that something is expensive. A pack of cigarettes is $8.00 in New York. I remember when a pack went for $1.00. I do not recall a single cigarette manufacturer going out of business despite major lawsuit losses and people knowing for a fact the cigarettes kill you. You could create a brand of cigarettes called KILLER COFFIN NAILS with a skull and crossbones label and have a guy with a tracheotomy pimping them on television and they would still sell. There is no shortage of sheep.

[Odysseus]

You don't know the GOP, then. They're not conservative anymore.....Bush spent more than Clinton.....you, as a socialist, should be happy with that.....but no, because he wears the GOP hat, you despise him, no matter what.....

Tell me, why did you vote for Obama? Which of his policies do you like the most? Was it his policy of hope? His policy of change? Cause that's all I heard......was an empty suit campaigning on a platform of 2 words.....fortunately for him, Bush ruined the GOP (by leading them more away from conservatism), which has created very little difference between the parties. I laugh at people like you who actually think Bush was a conservative.......shows that you know nothing except the party hats.

I'm an independent, yes.....but that is not to say I'm in the middle of the 2 parties (which is what most people think it means)......not even close......independent is whatever you want it to be. I'm a conservative who is disgusted with the GOP. I'm most conservative on fiscal issues, which means I'm to the right of both parties nowadays.

The fact that so many people are now claiming to be Independent shows a certain failure in the two party system. It points out to failed opportunity on the Democrats side as well as failed confidence in the Republican party. We need to return to a process of discussion where agreeing with a person does not mean they are completely right and disagreeing with them does not mean they are completely wrong. We the people need to grow a set.

[watermock]

If you raise the taxes on one thing they eventually buy something else. If that something else is still stateside you are not losing money because it takes time for people to figure out that something is expensive. A pack of cigarettes is $8.00 in New York. I remember when a pack went for $1.00. I do not recall a single cigarette manufacturer going out of business despite major lawsuit losses and people knowing for a fact the cigarettes kill you. You could create a brand of cigarettes called KILLER COFFIN NAILS with a skull and crossbones label and have a guy with a tracheotomy pimping them on television and they would still sell. There is no shortage of sheep.


I'm your man. As long as i get paid with cubans.

[Odysseus]

I'm your man. As long as i get paid with cubans.

It's pretty easy to sneak a trip into Cuba. I have a friend in the Honduras who can give you a tour. Let me know when you are set to sail.

[watermock]

They should outlaw Aspartamine and white sugar.

'And white bread. It's rascist.

[watermock]

It's pretty easy to sneak a trip into Cuba. I have a friend in the Honduras who can give you a tour. Let me know when you are set to sail.

I just need the money. I've allready got the hole in my throat.

[Bronco Bob]

They should outlaw Aspartamine and white sugar.

'And white bread. It's rascist.

Why white sugar? It's a lot better for a person than high fructose corn sweetener.
That's the stuff that should be banned, but the corn lobby is too powerful.

[barryr]

Hmm, Obama said "anyone making under 250,000 will not have their taxes raised." So only the wealthy drink soda? Again, you really have to be dumb to put it mildly to believe only rich people's taxes(and there isn't even an established, clear definition what that is anyway) were going up, but nobody else. Just more class warfare rhetoric that the weak-minded get off hearing.

[kappys]

They probably aren't going to be getting much in the way of taxes then.
Most food conglomerates stopped using sugar in drinks years ago and
switched to that high fructose corn sweetener crap instead. I would love to
be able to buy a soda pop with real sugar in it. You can taste the difference.

You can but they are pricey through specialty stores. Real cane sugar does indeed have a unique flavor. I avoid it but every now and again a proper ginger beer with real cane sugar is needed to restoreth the constitution.

[gunns]

I could care less the outcome. It's about time they start majorily taxing items that affect your health besides cigarettes. People are so stuck on cigarettes being the biggest health problem. Not even close. Those sugar drinks and places like McDonalds need to be taxed extra. Let them pay more to be unhealthy....and overweight.

[cutthemdown]

Sometimes the whole point of raising taxes is to get people to avoid buying
things. Such as raising the amount of taxes on cigarettes. The point isn't
to increase revenue. The point it to make it so expensive to smoke them
that people stop using cigarettes.

Oh give me a break. What's your next line of BS? That red light cameras are to make intersections safer?

That is crap they tax sin items because they know people will buy them regardless. The govt understands addiction and how they can profit.

Many states rely on cig taxes to make budget. You think they really want to lose that money?

Don't be naive. The govt will send 18 yr olds to die in a war, you think they care about people dying because they smoke?

[cutthemdown]

I say if you tax cigs, also tax coffee. Tax everything and see what happens. We can once and for all put to rest that high taxes are good.

[cutthemdown]

I could care less the outcome. It's about time they start majorily taxing items that affect your health besides cigarettes. People are so stuck on cigarettes being the biggest health problem. Not even close. Those sugar drinks and places like McDonalds need to be taxed extra. Let them pay more to be unhealthy....and overweight.

Hmmm I thought it was proved that many 5 star restaurant had dishes just as bad as fast food.

You would have to target it at grams of fat per serving I would think.

Also then ice cream shops and candy shops have to raise taxes there to. Not fair to single out fast food industry and let a place simply remove a drive thru to get over the tax.

[Florida_Bronco]

Oh give me a break. What's your next line of BS? That red light cameras are to make intersections safer? Every statistic I've seen has proven this to be true, especially back in my home state.

[cutthemdown]

Every statistic I've seen has proven this to be true, especially back in my home state.

I would to see a thread just about that. Maybe I will start one. From what I have heard at intersections not making enough revenue the remove them. And it's been shown that many of the deadliest intersections don't get lights because overall not enough traffic to make money at it.

[Spider]

[QUOTE=cutthemdown;2422292]Which illustrates why dems don't get it. Raising taxes can actually mean less revenue as people find ways around your tax, avoid buying things, buy from tax free states etc etc.[/QveUOTE]

No it has never worked that way .................for example Min wage when I hit the work force was 2.35 an hour , trucking paid 12 cents a mile , you could rent a house for 50.00 per bedroom , Wages went up , prices went up on everything , and we are still here ...... Look cut you got a level head , you are not dense , you need to put the stigma away ........And I have seen taxes come and go ( mainly come ;D)and we have survived every one of them.......Reagan went on a tax increase ,highest this country ever seen.......we survived..Daddy Bush " Read my lips, No taxes..........Err my bad more taxes".....Point is we survived.........Best I ever did fiscally was under Clinton..........Normally i dont take the time to explain this , But you seem pretty Smart Cut ......So I dont consider this a waste

[cutthemdown]

[QUOTE=cutthemdown;2422292]Which illustrates why dems don't get it. Raising taxes can actually mean less revenue as people find ways around your tax, avoid buying things, buy from tax free states etc etc.[/QveUOTE]

No it has never worked that way .................for example Min wage when I hit the work force was 2.35 an hour , trucking paid 12 cents a mile , you could rent a house for 50.00 per bedroom , Wages went up , prices went up on everything , and we are still here ...... Look cut you got a level head , you are not dense , you need to put the stigma away ........And I have seen taxes come and go ( mainly come ;D)and we have survived every one of them.......Reagan went on a tax increase ,highest this country ever seen.......we survived..Daddy Bush " Read my lips, No taxes..........Err my bad more taxes".....Point is we survived.........Best I ever did fiscally was under Clinton..........Normally i dont take the time to explain this , But you seem pretty Smart Cut ......So I dont consider this a waste

I'm doing my best ever right now, so go figure.

[Spider]

I'm doing my best ever right now, so go figure.

well I work in the blue collar world , so do millions of others ........so there really isnt much to figure out,the working man once again gets ****ed

[cutthemdown]

well I work in the blue collar world , so do millions of others ........so there really isnt much to figure out,the working man once again gets ****ed

Well I work for a law office, it's recession proof.

[gunns]

Hmmm I thought it was proved that many 5 star restaurant had dishes just as bad as fast food.

You would have to target it at grams of fat per serving I would think.

Also then ice cream shops and candy shops have to raise taxes there to. Not fair to single out fast food industry and let a place simply remove a drive thru to get over the tax.

What I was saying is if you are going to target one group (cigarettes) as unhealthy and tax it extra because of that, then let's go after all unhealthy groups. It has gotten ridiculous. It cracks me up this cigarette "scare" when 70% of what is killing people is the overall pollution out there from cars and factories. So we going to tax them extra now? If they want unhealthy they need to be realistic. I've had two cousins die, one from lung cancer, the other from cirrosis (sp) of the liver. Neither have had a drink or smoke in their life. Over weight is topping cigarette smoking as the most unhealthy class. But where does it stop? It's becoming the "righteous" tax.

[Spider]

Well I work for a law office, it's recession proof.

Then you should have a better grasp of whats going on .......

[That One Guy]

What I was saying is if you are going to target one group (cigarettes) as unhealthy and tax it extra because of that, then let's go after all unhealthy groups. It has gotten ridiculous. It cracks me up this cigarette "scare" when 70% of what is killing people is the overall pollution out there from cars and factories. So we going to tax them extra now? If they want unhealthy they need to be realistic. I've had two cousins die, one from lung cancer, the other from cirrosis (sp) of the liver. Neither have had a drink or smoke in their life. Over weight is topping cigarette smoking as the most unhealthy class. But where does it stop? It's becoming the "righteous" tax.

But it wouldn't be a concern if people would stop pushing the health care for everyone stuff. If you put yourself at risk, you should have to pay the higher premiums. If the premium is too high to pay then your personal value isn't outweighing your risks and you need to reevaluate.

People always yell that they have to regulate what we're eating/drinking/smoking because it makes for high health care but if everyone would make healthcare a personal problem then I could deal with my own repercussions. Problem solved.

[Spider]

But it wouldn't be a concern if people would stop pushing the health care for everyone stuff. If you put yourself at risk, you should have to pay the higher premiums. If the premium is too high to pay then your personal value isn't outweighing your risks and you need to reevaluate.

People always yell that they have to regulate what we're eating/drinking/smoking because it makes for high health care but if everyone would make healthcare a personal problem then I could deal with my own repercussions. Problem solved.

you are so full of **** ........

[Spider]

see in La LA land Cah plan might work , but here in the real world we had tobacco companies lyin about the effects of smoking , trans fat people lying , but keep on being Naive Cah it suits you well

[That One Guy]

see in La LA land Cah plan might work , but here in the real world we had tobacco companies lyin about the effects of smoking , trans fat people lying , but keep on being Naive Cah it suits you well

I don't get it... if it's the tobacco company's fault because they lied... why continue taxing the people that became addicted to the product? Sounds like the government believes it's the choice of those who continue as well and are punishing them accordingly.

[Spider]

I don't get it... if it's the tobacco company's fault because they lied... why continue taxing the people that became addicted to the product? Sounds like the government believes it's the choice of those who continue as well and are punishing them accordingly.

Of course you dont get it .. But if people were smoking believing there is no health risk , now in their 60's ..........How about all of those chemicals they pump into meat to keep the shelf life longer , are those good for you ?

[That One Guy]

Of course you dont get it .. But if people were smoking believing there is no health risk , now in their 60's ..........How about all of those chemicals they pump into meat to keep the shelf life longer , are those good for you ?

They're better than starving.

When in history has the average longevity been anything close to what it is today? Never. We aren't meant to live this long and if we die before our 83rd birthday, it's not a tragedy. Noone's gonna die at 25 due to the preservatives they put into meat. The things that will kill you that early are all well known and if you ingest them anyways, pay the piper when he comes callin'.

[Spider]

They're better than starving.

When in history has the average longevity been anything close to what it is today? Never. We aren't meant to live this long and if we die before our 83rd birthday, it's not a tragedy. Noone's gonna die at 25 due to the preservatives they put into meat. The things that will kill you that early are all well known and if you ingest them anyways, pay the piper when he comes callin'.

LOL .... whatever , starving ? why would we starve f they didnt use chemicals ? I got to hear this one ..... I am an old farm boy , so be careful not to bull****

[Spider]

oh and Genius , the elderly cost more in medical coverage then 25 year olds .....

[Meck77]

I could care less the outcome. It's about time they start majorily taxing items that affect your health besides cigarettes. People are so stuck on cigarettes being the biggest health problem. Not even close. Those sugar drinks and places like McDonalds need to be taxed extra. Let them pay more to be unhealthy....and overweight.

Sure gunns. Let's tax the hell out of bacon and red beef since it makes people fat also.

[Spider]

Sure gunns. Let's tax the hell out of bacon and red beef since it makes people fat also.

;D they dont make people fat , eating those things and not working it off causes you to be fat

[TDmvp]

LOL .... whatever , starving ? why would we starve f they didnt use chemicals ? I got to hear this one ..... I am an old farm boy , so be careful not to bull****

pretty sure it has something to do with how much more you can grow/raise/preserve using Chems vs how much less you get with out ....

So if you have less you can feed less ... and if you have less YOU CHARGE MORE .... and the price thing is the biggy...

So the amount able to be donated to the starving countries would drop to like 0 and if we did give it would cost 3 or 4 times what it does now .....

hence why we do it .

[Spider]

pretty sure it has something to do with how much more you can grow/raise/preserve using Chems vs how much less you get with out ....

So if you have less you can feed less ... and if you have less YOU CHARGE MORE .... and the price thing is the biggy...

So the amount able to be donated to the starving countries would drop to like 0 and if we did give it would cost 3 or 4 times what it does now .....

hence why we do it .

no it doesnt , a Kansas farmer feeds 248 people + you ...........thats just 1 kansas farmer ....... what you would see is the butcher shops coming back ......

[Spider]

why we do it is so big Chains can choke out the local butcher shop , Soccer Mom would die if she couldnt do all of her shopping in 1 place .....

[TDmvp]

no it doesnt , a Kansas farmer feeds 248 people + you ...........thats just 1 kansas farmer ....... what you would see is the butcher shops coming back ......


how what you said has anything to do with why it is done and what i said ... I have no idea.

You ask ... I told you the real reason.

common sense and google would answer your question ... maybe research it .... I did ...

[TDmvp]

It's all about price , how long something keeps and your gross output ...
period ..

[Spider]

how what you said has anything to do with why it is done and what i said ... I have no idea.

You ask ... I told you the real reason.

common sense and google would answer your question ... maybe research it .... I did ...

reread it ......... you claimed a shortage of food ....... think .........

[Spider]

It's all about price , how long something keeps and your gross output ...
period ..
cheaper to buy a half of beef and have it butchered and put it in your deep freezer .......

[Meck77]

What I was saying is if you are going to target one group (cigarettes) as unhealthy and tax it extra because of that, then let's go after all unhealthy groups. It has gotten ridiculous. It cracks me up this cigarette "scare" when 70% of what is killing people is the overall pollution out there from cars and factories. So we going to tax them extra now? If they want unhealthy they need to be realistic. I've had two cousins die, one from lung cancer, the other from cirrosis (sp) of the liver. Neither have had a drink or smoke in their life. Over weight is topping cigarette smoking as the most unhealthy class. But where does it stop? It's becoming the "righteous" tax.

Don't worry gunns. I heard Obama was looking at implementing a "Fat tax" on people who are overweight. Obama will take care of everybody.

[TDmvp]

Don't worry gunns. I heard Obama was looking at implementing a "Fat tax" on people who are overweight. Obama will take care of everybody.

Yup and wait till we nationalize health care and they can tell you what you can and can not do to get treatment ...

over weight , F you no care
family history of a illness , F you no care
drink or smoke , F you no care
Eat things they deem unfit , F you no care

or they will add fees to people who do things they decide is bad and you pay for it twice basically , taxed for it and out of pocket pay for penalties they choose ..end up paying WAY more then if it was how it is now ...

and then you get to get in line and wait if they do decide to treat you...

Seen a great story of someone dieing of Lyme disease in Canada cause he was deemed not to need care right away .

[Miss I.]

I am not necessarily agreeing with this tax, but smoking does cause cancer. That's not a scare, it's a fact. Can you get lung cancer without that, yes of course you can. Should it be taxed? maybe and maybe some food items too, and I believe pollution taxes do come out through our gasoline prices and vehicle emissions and licensing so pollution is kind of being taxed. I don't believe taxes are the end all be all to fixing things, however, some are a necessary evil, just like cutting back on purchases, eating better and exercising are necessary too. Of course, they might be able to get some income by legalizing some drugs and taxing the hell out of those like alcohol and by creating industries around them (marijuana crops, hemp stuff, etc, etc).

As for universal healthcare, the more I have to deal with socialized medicine in England, not so sure it's a great idea. Everything here is so expensive, taxed like crazy at least in part to pay for that, but it's one half dozen or another I guess.

[cutthemdown]

Then you should have a better grasp of whats going on .......

I do understand I just don't think giving more money to the govt is going to help. They just waste it on the stupid things like money for Murthas stupid airport no one uses, to that stupid bridge they don't need in Alaska.

My state wants more money, for more prisons, when we don't even have money for schools. It's insane.

But if the people are struggling, how does taking more tax from them make things better.

Explain to me what I don't understand about it?

I understand trying to make society healthier, it's a good idea, but I disagree that taxing things will bring it about.

[cutthemdown]

Read this!!!!

http://www.slate.com/id/2184475/

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton may differ (slightly) on health-care policy reform (http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080205/cm_huffpost/085144), but at least they agree on how to pay for it. At a December debate in Iowa, Obama announced that "if we went back to the obesity rates that existed in 1980, that would save the Medicare system a trillion dollars (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/politics/13text-debate.html?pagewanted=7&ref=politics)." We might chalk this up as mere Obambast (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4481899), another of the Senator's blowy promises. But Clinton mirrors the claim (http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcare/) on her own Web site: "Medicare could save over a trillion dollars over 25 years if obesity among seniors could be returned to levels in the 1980s."

Some fact checking (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/231/) revealed that their numbers (apparently taken from this RAND Corporation study (http://www.bepress.com/fhep/biomedical_research/1/)) were a bit off. According to Eric Finkelstein, a widely cited (http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/19/obesity-fat-costs_cx_mh_0720obesity.html) authority on the economic cost of obesity, they should have said the savings would be $200 billion. One of his own studies claims that Medicare and Medicaid lay out an additional $39 billion (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/conditions/01/21/obesity.spending.ap/) of taxpayer money every year for obesity-related diseases. This figure—which translates to $175 for each of us, enough to buy a très petit iPod Nano (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=3587D037&node=home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_nano)—has led lawmakers to view fat people as a cash cow. If we rein in those profligate heavyweights, the thinking goes, we'll save billions in taxpayer money. A Mississippi lawmaker cited the financial strain on the state's Medicaid program (http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080205/NEWS010504/802050377/1001/news) when he proposed a bill making it illegal for restaurants to serve obese customers (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0201081fat1.html). After Gov. Schwarzenegger's recent claim that obesity costs California $28.5 billion per year (http://gov.ca.gov/index.php?/fact-sheet/7467/), politicians have tried to force restaurants to list calorie counts on their menus (http://www.restaurant.org/government/state/nutrition/bills_labeling.cfm).

But a pair of new epidemiological studies reveals that these attempts to wring money out of the obese are misleading and misguided. Worse, the obesity cost estimates used to justify them are a danger to public health.

he first paper (http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050029), published by a Dutch team in the journal PLoS Medicine, challenges the basic assumption that fat people are more expensive to treat. It's true that if you compare two people of the same age and wealth, one slim and the other obese, you can expect the fatter one to have more chronic diseases like diabetes and hypertension. The fatter patient will also make more visits to the doctor, buy more prescription drugs, and otherwise ring up higher medical bills in a given year.But this analytical approach—used routinely by Finkelstein and other obesity number crunchers—ignores one important fact: Obese people have shorter life spans. Since the elderly are by far the costliest patients, it's possible that early deaths save taxpayers money in the long run. In fact, fatal diseases almost always return net-cost savings to public health care. Smoking, which causes a host of particularly deadly conditions, turns out to be especially cheap (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/337/15/1052)—which is to say, government attempts to curb nicotine addiction have actually cost the United States money. (****ling mental disorders and musculoskeletal diseases tend to be more expensive (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/316/7124/26).)
That's how the numbers played out in the Dutch study. If we somehow figured out a way to "cure" obesity—with a pill, an injection, or a law like the one they're proposing in Mississippi—we'd increase the burden on taxpayers. More people would make it to old age, hastening the Social Security crisis and pushing up the costs of Medicaid. Indeed, the analysis in PLoS Medicine revealed that lifetime health expenditures were highest for healthy-living people of optimum weight.
This finding has sent some anti-fat crusaders into retreat. Neville Rigby of the United Nations' International Obesity Taskforce (http://www.iotf.org/) has now admitted (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBESITY_COST?SITE=KPUA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) to the Associated Press that "the benefits of obesity prevention may not be seen immediately in terms of cost savings." He had a different take (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-02-04-oppose-usat_x.htm) in 2004, when he wrote in USA Today that "obesity costs the U.S. $125 billion a year in health and other bills that it can ill-afford. … [T]he result is higher taxes and health bills and an economy that suffers."
But the health economists are undeterred. The PLoS paper looks only at the direct costs of obesity—i.e., the amount spent on specific medical treatments. That leaves out a huge volume of indirect costs to society—unemployment, missed days of work, and lowered on-the-job productivity. According to Finkelstein, these losses add up to more than $40 billion a year (http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/obesitycost/05weighingcosts.html): One-third of that comes from absenteeism (people are too sick or lethargic to come to work) and the remainder from something called "presenteeism" (people at work are too fat to get anything done). Finkelstein's firm, RTI International, has even designed a downloadable Obesity Cost Calculator (http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/healthtopics/obesitycostcalculator.cfm?printPage=1&) to help business owners figure out how much money they're losing to lard-butt staffers. (RTI also happens to serve a client list (http://www.rti.org/page.cfm?objectid=1F591C75-ABC2-4A84-9951C76CD07E0437) that includes some of the biggest names in the weight-loss industry.) Other economists have framed the issue in terms of trendy issues like global warming or the energy crisis. (Click here (http://www.slate.com/id/2184475/sidebar/2184498/) for more.)
Meanwhile, a plague of ridiculous productivity-cost estimates (http://www.slate.com/id/2138123/) in other spheres diminishes the obesity sticker shock. If we believe that extra pounds result in $40 billion of lost business, what are we to make of the claim that negativity in the workplace costs a whopping $350 billion (http://gmj.gallup.com/content/247/High-Cost-Disengaged-Employees.aspx)? Spam e-mails eat away another $20 billion (http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/32478.html), and even the NCAA college basketball tournament costs us $3.8 billion (http://www.slate.com/id/2138333/). With all these other numbers floating around, the cost of obesity loses all meaning.

[Spider]

I do understand I just don't think giving more money to the govt is going to help. They just waste it on the stupid things like money for Murthas stupid airport no one uses, to that stupid bridge they don't need in Alaska.

My state wants more money, for more prisons, when we don't even have money for schools. It's insane.

But if the people are struggling, how does taking more tax from them make things better.

Explain to me what I don't understand about it?

I understand trying to make society healthier, it's a good idea, but I disagree that taxing things will bring it about. dont know about better , but my point is , the exact same song and dance that has always went on , just a different tax , one thing I will point out is our Military and their healthcare , runs smooth even Walter Reed ....... is it perfect ? no , but it is better then what we have now , My son just got back from urgent care ear infection , his medicine was 110.00 .......I dont know the cost of the office visit yet

[cutthemdown]

They way to make healthcare more affordable is to change the way doctors are trained. Right now a doctor goes to college for 4-6 yrs to get a degree, pre med, then 4 yrs medical school, then 3 yrs as an intern. After 11 yrs of loans if you don't make a ton of money then you can't pay it back etc.

Doctors deserve a huge amount of salary for 11-13 yrs of school. Name one other field that takes that type of school.

So how do you cut costs enough to make healthcare affordable, when you are dealing with people who went to school the longest of anyone?

Maybe they should make a tax on people like movie stars and pro athletes? They don't go to school near as long as doctors and do far less for society.

[Spider]

They way to make healthcare more affordable is to change the way doctors are trained. Right now a doctor goes to college for 4-6 yrs to get a degree, pre med, then 4 yrs medical school, then 3 yrs as an intern. After 11 yrs of loans if you don't make a ton of money then you can't pay it back etc.

Doctors deserve a huge amount of salary for 11-13 yrs of school. Name one other field that takes that type of school.

So how do you cut costs enough to make healthcare affordable, when you are dealing with people who went to school the longest of anyone?

Maybe they should make a tax on people like movie stars and pro athletes? They don't go to school near as long as doctors and do far less for society.

Yeah that would be 1 idea .....Second Idea would be to put a cap on the tuition they have to pay ........

[cutthemdown]

Yeah that would be 1 idea .....Second Idea would be to put a cap on the tuition they have to pay ........

The already let PA do a lot of work. Maybe Physicians assistants can do a lot of what GP do and and lower costs. I doubt you need 11 yrs of medical school to stitch up a cut, treat sore throat, ear infection etc. I know my GP lets his PA do a lot but I'm sure they have limits.

IMO surgeons if they can't make the big big bucks will choose easier paths and we may end up with a shortage of food surgeons.

I wouldn't worry so much seeing a pa when I feel a little sick, or need a check up etc, but when you go under the knife you hope you get someone good.

[gunns]

Sure gunns. Let's tax the hell out of bacon and red beef since it makes people fat also.

That was the point. Where does it stop? I do not have a problem with higher taxes on cigarettes but if the point is to put a higher tax on items that are unhealthy, why discriminate and not go after the most unhealthy group? The problem is that not all the food they eat is unhealthy, it's how much they eat. If they are going to tax sugar drinks why not just tax sugar? I was being sarcastic, in other words where does it end?

[cutthemdown]

Yeah that would be 1 idea .....Second Idea would be to put a cap on the tuition they have to pay ........

yeah but if you are talking about then having them make less how do you do that. Can't really cap their pay can you?

Also what about doctors already done with school, they wouldnt get the cheaper tuition.

It would almost take 2 different systems. One you pay for your own school, go straight to private sector, be a doctor, make a ton etc.

The other, you go the cheap, govt trains you, you work a minimum of 10 yrs at hospitals govt assigns you to but you get paid by govt.

So if med school costs 100 grand, you make the docs getting school paid for work for 20 grand a yr less then the avg doctor who paid for school. So over 10 yrs 200 grand saved, 100 grand to train, govt comes out 100 grand ahead.

I'm sure its a stupid idea because I just came up with it off top of head.

But I still say no way govt can doctors what they can make, how do we really make it cheaper?

[Meck77]

I was being sarcastic, in other words where does it end?

Probably after the next election. Even you will be sick of all the NEW taxes on the middle class that weren't supposed to happen.

[Spider]

Probably after the next election. Even you will be sick of all the NEW taxes on the middle class that weren't supposed to happen.

meh........we will see

[That One Guy]

Probably after the next election. Even you will be sick of all the NEW taxes on the middle class that weren't supposed to happen.

The world exists on the premise that everything takes the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance for the masses is handouts from the government. All those dumbasses screaming that Obama was going to pay their mortgage are still going to be getting more from the government than they'll lose. Obama being able to mobilize the minority masses is a perfect storm in this sense. The groups who statistically are lower on the social food chain are the ones who he can mobilize, are more likely to be the most politically ignorant, and will stand in line for the handouts as it'll be better than what they had before.

The only thing we'll lose is for those who actually wanted to work hard and get ahead in life.... those who actually have goals in life and were working to achieve them.

[Spider]

yeah but if you are talking about then having them make less how do you do that. Can't really cap their pay can you? Lowering tuition cost will cap doctors salary ... ok

Also what about doctors already done with school, they wouldnt get the cheaper tuition. I didnt say we could help everyone

It would almost take 2 different systems. One you pay for your own school, go straight to private sector, be a doctor, make a ton etc. Most doctors I have encountered dont become doctors for the $$$$ it is more of a calling

The other, you go the cheap, govt trains you, you work a minimum of 10 yrs at hospitals govt assigns you to but you get paid by govt. So in your opinion military health care is cheap in service ???

So if med school costs 100 grand, you make the docs getting school paid for work for 20 grand a yr less then the avg doctor who paid for school. So over 10 yrs 200 grand saved, 100 grand to train, govt comes out 100 grand ahead.

I'm sure its a stupid idea because I just came up with it off top of head.

But I still say no way govt can doctors what they can make, how do we really make it cheaper?we spend billions per week in Iraq bringing them democracy ,we spent 350 K for a coffee pot on a plane ,44 k for a hammer etc .......just explain how military doctors are so second rate , I will drop this argument right now

[rastaman]

Actually, the Dems are the ones who still have an active member of the Senate that was a KKK member......in fact, he held quite a high position within the KKK.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
- Robert Byrd

Get your facts straight......wait, you probably don't have any.

Come on 55....in all fairness, when did Sen. Byrd make those comments? At least provide a date when he made the comment instead of trying to incite people getting pissed off. If history serves me right, Byrd made those comments sometime in 1947!:thumbsup:

Point is, people change. Hell even George Wallace and Bull Connor had a change of heart about Racism.:thanku:

[That One Guy]

Lowering tuition cost will cap doctors salary ... ok

I didnt say we could help everyone

Most doctors I have encountered dont become doctors for the $$$$ it is more of a calling

So in your opinion military health care is cheap in service ???

we spend billions per week in Iraq bringing them democracy ,we spent 350 K for a coffee pot on a plane ,44 k for a hammer etc .......just explain how military doctors are so second rate , I will drop this argument right now

Precisely. The government doesn't have to help everyone. End this stupid aspiration for universal healthcare right now.

Military doctors are horrible not necessarily because of their skills (everyone has the same schooling requirements) but because of their mindset. When healthcare is free, people go for stupid reasons. That causes the doctors to just say or do whatever it takes to get the whiney people out the door. I was having back problems a while back that prevented me from walking, I've had x-rays to show there is issues with it, and I went back to the doctor to see if there was anything he could do to make some of the pain go away. Some little medic briefed him on my case across the room, said I had back pain and what the x-rays I'd had in the past showed and the doctor made his diagnosis without ever coming over to see me. This was a 22 year old kid with 3 months of training telling a doctor what the scenario was and the doctor just announced a diagnosis before he had even seen my face. I got pain pills, a few physical therapy exercises to do, and sent on my way.

On the way out the door, the doctor said "just take it easy and take these pills and then when the pain goes away, do these exercises" and that was that. I could've probably suggested that if I took it easy and did what didn't hurt my back, my back would stop hurting. I don't have a medical degree. When on any given day you may be lugging around 100+ pounds of gear though, "taking it easy" isn't always a possibility.

The doctor got credit for treating another patient. My back still hurts. Enjoy your healthcare and thanks for trying to forcefeed it on me.

And that's just my experience in the last 2-3 months. I could ramble off experience with bad doctors until the Mane runs out of server space that I know of either 1st or 2nd hand.

[Spider]

Precisely. The government doesn't have to help everyone. End this stupid aspiration for universal healthcare right now.

Military doctors are horrible not necessarily because of their skills (everyone has the same schooling requirements) but because of their mindset. When healthcare is free, people go for stupid reasons. That causes the doctors to just say or do whatever it takes to get the whiney people out the door. I was having back problems a while back that prevented me from walking, I've had x-rays to show there is issues with it, and I went back to the doctor to see if there was anything he could do to make some of the pain go away. Some little medic briefed him on my case across the room, said I had back pain and what the x-rays I'd had in the past showed and the doctor made his diagnosis without ever coming over to see me. This was a 22 year old kid with 3 months of training telling a doctor what the scenario was and the doctor just announced a diagnosis before he had even seen my face. I got pain pills, a few physical therapy exercises to do, and sent on my way.

On the way out the door, the doctor said "just take it easy and take these pills and then when the pain goes away, do these exercises" and that was that. I could've probably suggested that if I took it easy and did what didn't hurt my back, my back would stop hurting. I don't have a medical degree. When on any given day you may be lugging around 100+ pounds of gear though, "taking it easy" isn't always a possibility.

The doctor got credit for treating another patient. My back still hurts. Enjoy your healthcare and thanks for trying to forcefeed it on me.

And that's just my experience in the last 2-3 months. I could ramble off experience with bad doctors until the Mane runs out of server space that I know of either 1st or 2nd hand.

meh ..... i think you are full of **** , Ihurt my back also had surgery after trying several different treatments ,surgery was the last step , I have made a full recovery .so share your bull**** with someone else

[That One Guy]

meh ..... i think you are full of **** , Ihurt my back also had surgery after trying several different treatments ,surgery was the last step , I have made a full recovery .so share your bull**** with someone else

You're flapping your gums with no comeback. You may not be able to recognize that you're wrong but everyone I know of that has come in contact with free healthcare has realized it's not as great as the concept, why can't anyone recognize this?

And if you can find me a person who has used the military healtcare system and not been sent away with a bottle of motrin or a recommendation to physical therapy with hardly a thought given to the actual problem, you've found the only one.

[Spider]

You're flapping your gums with no comeback. You may not be able to recognize that you're wrong but everyone I know of that has come in contact with free healthcare has realized it's not as great as the concept, why can't anyone recognize this?

And if you can find me a person who has used the military healtcare system and not been sent away with a bottle of motrin or a recommendation to physical therapy with hardly a thought given to the actual problem, you've found the only one.

if that is your story stick to it ...... My brothers and my Dad served in the military , father in law , and a few good friends of mine , one was even a CB ..
Like I said Bull**** someone else ..........Let me help you out here , I tore up the 4 lower disk in my back , I lifted a 350 engine block , I was on workmans comp , the doc told me at first , it is pulled muscles , then it went to a sprained back, to a bulge in a disk and so on ........ but the main thing is I got healthcare and over 2 months time I had the surgery ........ Sounds like all you want is a surgery mill ...... got an owie = lets do surgery

[Spider]

Not every pain you get in life can be taken away , i know back pain , I was on Hydrocotizon very powerfull stuff , I threw it away , bad thing about taking pain killers is when they wear off the pain comes back even more , but if you learn to live with it , you do alot better ......... I wont call you a pussy cause I have been where you are ,and I understand your pain, but you have to understand that , you will never be the same , pain will always be a part of your life now ,you just have ot learn to manage it ........

[That One Guy]

Not every pain you get in life can be taken away , i know back pain , I was on Hydrocotizon very powerfull stuff , I threw it away , bad thing about taking pain killers is when they wear off the pain comes back even more , but if you learn to live with it , you do alot better ......... I wont call you a p***Y cause I have been where you are ,and I understand your pain, but you have to understand that , you will never be the same , pain will always be a part of your life now ,you just have ot learn to manage it ........

I don't want surgery. But there's a long ways between do-it-yourself physical therapy remedies and surgery. I can understand pain but when you the problem in x-rays, it's not just a muscle cramping. And that was just my recent example.

Maybe instead you'd like to hear about the guy that got sent home from my unit after about 3 weeks in country because an incompetent medic gave him an anthrax shot wrong and it attacked his nerves. What does anthrax do when it's injected directly into the nerve? I don't know... but I feel sorry for the guy. That's an example of the other side of the free healthcare game. They'll train people as cheap as possible and as quick as possible.

[Spider]

I don't want surgery. But there's a long ways between do-it-yourself physical therapy remedies and surgery. I can understand pain but when you the problem in x-rays, it's not just a muscle cramping. And that was just my recent example. not really , depending on the damage done , your body could repair itself .......

Maybe instead you'd like to hear about the guy that got sent home from my unit after about 3 weeks in country because an incompetent medic gave him an anthrax shot wrong and it attacked his nerves. What does anthrax do when it's injected directly into the nerve? I don't know... but I feel sorry for the guy. That's an example of the other side of the free healthcare game. They'll train people as cheap as possible and as quick as possible.
LOL as if that couldnt happen in our healthcare we have now ?
I could totally blow this little story out of the water with my dad going in for gall bladder surgery and getting MERSA , but why disrupt your simplistic dream you have that mistakes dont happen out here in the 1 party pay system ......or I could tell you how Mike was diagnosed with acid reflux when he was having a heart attack , but ..........

[That One Guy]

not really , depending on the damage done , your body could repair itself .......


LOL as if that couldnt happen in our healthcare we have now ?
I could totally blow this little story out of the water with my dad going in for gall bladder surgery and getting MERSA , but why disrupt your simplistic dream you have that mistakes dont happen out here in the 1 party pay system ......

Sorry jack, you have staph infections before you have surgery. They just don't come to light until you have a vulnerability such as surgery.

And it wasn't an accident, it was a person who didn't know that anthrax shots are not administered like a simple flu shot. In the civilian world, that qualifies for a malpractice suit.

[Spider]

Sorry jack, you have staph infections before you have surgery. They just don't come to light until you have a vulnerability such as surgery.

And it wasn't an accident, it was a person who didn't know that anthrax shots are not administered like a simple flu shot. In the civilian world, that qualifies for a malpractice suit.

LOL bull**** , his was caused by a dirty scalpel care to try again ?

[Spider]

:rofl: @ Dr Cah ..... MERSA isnt a bacteria..........

[That One Guy]

Of course it was because that makes this story relevant. We'll ignore the fact that their utensils were just as sterile as every other tool used.

This is from webMD which I know isn't as convincing as your hastily formed opinion but I just figured it was worth citing, for fun:

What causes MRSA?

Garden-variety staph are common bacteria that can live on our bodies. Plenty of healthy people carry staph without being infected by it. In fact, 25-30% of us have staph bacteria in our noses.
But staph can be a problem if it manages to get into the body, often through a cut. Once there, it can cause an infection. Staph is one of the most common causes of skin infections in the U.S. Usually, these are minor and don't need special treatment. Less often, staph can cause serious problems like infected wounds or pneumonia.
Staph can usually be treated with antibiotics. But over the decades, some strains of staph -- like MRSA -- have become resistant to antibiotics that once destroyed it. MRSA was first discovered in 1961. It's now resistant to methicillin, amoxicillin, penicillin, oxacillin, and many other antibiotics.

[That One Guy]

:rofl: @ Dr Cah ..... MERSA isnt a bacteria..........

Hahaha... that's so perfect that I had to take a call because it gave you a chance to post this nonsense. I'm quoting it so you can't go changing it.

[Meck77]

Doctors love to prescribe ****. My dad was told by several doctors he'd be dead at 50 years old. They were pumping him full of crap. He finally decided to empty his medicine cabinet completely and started over. He switched to fruits, vegetables, various herbs, regular hot spring therapy and he's celebrating his 84th birthday this August.

Modern medicine obviously has come a long way but I think all too often we trust doctors too much and the only one who really benefit are them$elve$ and not the patience they serve.

[Spider]

Of course it was because that makes this story relevant. We'll ignore the fact that their utensils were just as sterile as every other tool used.

This is from webMD which I know isn't as convincing as your hastily formed opinion but I just figured it was worth citing, for fun:

What causes MRSA?

Garden-variety staph are common bacteria that can live on our bodies. Plenty of healthy people carry staph without being infected by it. In fact, 25-30% of us have staph bacteria in our noses.
But staph can be a problem if it manages to get into the body, often through a cut. Once there, it can cause an infection. Staph is one of the most common causes of skin infections in the U.S. Usually, these are minor and don't need special treatment. Less often, staph can cause serious problems like infected wounds or pneumonia.
Staph can usually be treated with antibiotics. But over the decades, some strains of staph -- like MRSA -- have become resistant to antibiotics that once destroyed it. MRSA was first discovered in 1961. It's now resistant to methicillin, amoxicillin, penicillin, oxacillin, and many other antibiotics.

MERSA is a bacteria goof ....... it isnt a virus and it isnt an off the top opinion , it is documented in my dad hospital records , you dolt ....... But now what about the acid reflux vs the heart attack thing ......
you are completely off your rocker if you think mistakes dont happen in the system we have now ..maybe you are not as crazy as I think , it could be your meds

[Spider]

Hahaha... that's so perfect that I had to take a call because it gave you a chance to post this nonsense. I'm quoting it so you can't go changing it.

LOL just for ****s and giggles , are you saying MERSA isnt a bacteria ?

[That One Guy]

MERSA is a bacteria goof ....... it isnt a virus and it isnt an off the top opinion , it is documented in my dad hospital records , you dolt ....... But now what about the acid reflux vs the heart attack thing ......
you are completely off your rocker if you think mistakes dont happen in the system we have now ..maybe you are not as crazy as I think , it could be your meds

OK, well at least you were being sarcastic but just didn't know how to denote that. That's better than being completely retarded.

The bacteria lives in the person's nose and on the skin, as the article stated and is transferred in many ways.

Are you going to try and claim that all those sports stars that were getting staph infections were getting them because the doctors weren't cleaning their scapels properly? Come on...

[Spider]

Doctors love to prescribe ****. My dad was told by several doctors he'd be dead at 50 years old. They were pumping him full of crap. He finally decided to empty his medicine cabinet completely and started over. He switched to fruits, vegetables, various herbs, regular hot spring therapy and he's celebrating his 84th birthday this August.

Modern medicine obviously has come a long way but I think all too often we trust doctors too much and the only one who really benefit are them$elve$ and not the patience they serve.
For profit medicine , the system we have now ...............my Grandma turned 100 today , she smoke drank , ate bacon ,eggs , lots and lots of butter ;D

[Spider]

OK, well at least you were being sarcastic but just didn't know how to denote that. That's better than being completely retarded.

The bacteria lives in the person's nose and on the skin, as the article stated and is transferred in many ways.

Are you going to try and claim that all those sports stars that were getting staph infections were getting them because the doctors weren't cleaning their scapels properly? Come on...

are you saying that bacteria cant live in a room or on instruments . be damn careful how you answer , cause I havent told you every thing yet , the way you answered already told me you dont know what the hell you are yapping about , so far i think of you as a person so desperate he will do anything to prove his point ........ but lets see if you really know what you are yapping about ......

[Spider]

Must be several pages deep in google right now trying to find something hey cah ........ let me save you some work , you get mersa off of a towel , Mersa is a bacteria that can live on its own just about any where , weight bench , pop can ......... Now just 2 months before the gall bladder surgery , my dad went in for surgery on his arm , didnt get MERSA .........

[Spider]

eer it wasnt his arm it was his wrist . my bad

[Spider]

But lets get to how the doc told mike he was having acid reflux, when Mike was having a heart attack ....... Care to explain that one ?

[That One Guy]

Sorry Jack, war interupted us.

You can't positively say where that bacteria came from any more than I can. Better ask the bacteria, that's the only way to know.

A misdiagnosis is one thing. Accidents happen. There's nothing to say the guy didn't have acid reflux AND a heart attack. Many of the symptoms are the same.

And that's not to say the doctor wasn't just being lazy. Just saying it's widespread across the board for us. If you don't have a bone hanging out, it's just minor and you're visiting the doctor for sympathy.

[Spider]

Sorry Jack, war interupted us.

You can't positively say where that bacteria came from any more than I can. Better ask the bacteria, that's the only way to know.

A misdiagnosis is one thing. Accidents happen. There's nothing to say the guy didn't have acid reflux AND a heart attack. Many of the symptoms are the same.

And that's not to say the doctor wasn't just being lazy. Just saying it's widespread across the board for us. If you don't have a bone hanging out, it's just minor and you're visiting the doctor for sympathy.

The Hell I cant cause got documented proof , one of the scalpels didnt get washed thoroughly , it was placed in a clean set by accident ......... I didnt give you info to make a determination , He had a heart attack an EKG would have shown it .......... Face it you are full of **** , you whine about Medical in the military , yet we civilians face the same **** ups , the only difference is we get charged .......... next time dont jump up on a soap box and go off half cocked ........

[Spider]

My Oldest son was given a medication he was allergic to , we took him into the hospital ,was told he isnt have an allergic reaction , it was a cold with fatigue , good thing the flight for life attendant was on and saved my sons life ........
So dont sit there and pretend all is good out here in the medicine for profit .....
the old saying you cant afford to get sick is so true

[That One Guy]

The Hell I cant cause got documented proof , one of the scalpels didnt get washed thoroughly , it was placed in a clean set by accident ......... I didnt give you info to make a determination , He had a heart attack an EKG would have shown it .......... Face it you are full of **** , you whine about Medical in the military , yet we civilians face the same **** ups , the only difference is we get charged .......... next time dont jump up on a soap box and go off half cocked ........

Scan up that documented proof. Black out the personal parts. If that had actually happened, you'd currently be related to a millionaire. No hospital would admit such a thing.

Beyond that, I've seen you blab about how terrible things are for you too often to try and out do you. You're the one who likened the NY terror plot with the trooper trying to kill the trucker. I can't argue with that level of creativity...

[Spider]

Scan up that documented proof. Black out the personal parts. If that had actually happened, you'd currently be related to a millionaire. No hospital would admit such a thing.

Beyond that, I've seen you blab about how terrible things are for you too often to try and out do you. You're the one who likened the NY terror plot with the trooper trying to kill the trucker. I can't argue with that level of creativity...

Kiss my ass , i dont give a rats ass if you believe me or not , just flat out telling you what happened , makes no difference to me if you believe or not ....... as for the second part , you thought you knew what you was yapping about , even went to wed MD , even saved a quote of mine , just to find out you full of **** , So you came up with this lame ass **** to try and save face ...... I tell you what , when you get hit with a 70K $$ hospital bill , I might be sympathetic to your whining.....

[That One Guy]

Kiss my ass , i dont give a rats ass if you believe me or not , just flat out telling you what happened , makes no difference to me if you believe or not ....... as for the second part , you thought you knew what you was yapping about , even went to wed MD , even saved a quote of mine , just to find out you full of **** , So you came up with this lame ass **** to try and save face ...... I tell you what , when you get hit with a 70K $$ hospital bill , I might be sympathetic to your whining.....

Just flat out telling me what happened. Sure. And I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona... I'll buy what you're selling if you'll buy what I am.

Your lame ass can't use any semblance of punctuation, don't act like I'm the idiot because your sarcasm didn't come through.

And definitely don't come crying about medical bills, you're the one proud that your wife pops out kids like a sow in constant heat. Not my problem there, trucker boy. Sing your sobs loud enough and the whole trailerpark will come out in support. You wont get that here.

Again, I'm tired of you throwing poorly arranged arguments my way and expecting me to take your nonsense at face value. I'm closing this thread. When you have anything resembling dignity or an education, come back and it'll be less frustrating and worth my time.

[barryr]

Just flat out telling me what happened. Sure. And I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona... I'll buy what you're selling if you'll buy what I am.

Your lame ass can't use any semblance of punctuation, don't act like I'm the idiot because your sarcasm didn't come through.

And definitely don't come crying about medical bills, you're the one proud that your wife pops out kids like a sow in constant heat. Not my problem there, trucker boy. Sing your sobs loud enough and the whole trailerpark will come out in support. You wont get that here.

Again, I'm tired of you throwing poorly arranged arguments my way and expecting me to take your nonsense at face value. I'm closing this thread. When you have anything resembling dignity or an education, come back and it'll be less frustrating and worth my time.

Props to you :sunshine:

[Spider]

Just flat out telling me what happened. Sure. And I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona... I'll buy what you're selling if you'll buy what I am.

Your lame ass can't use any semblance of punctuation, don't act like I'm the idiot because your sarcasm didn't come through.

And definitely don't come crying about medical bills, you're the one proud that your wife pops out kids like a sow in constant heat. Not my problem there, trucker boy. Sing your sobs loud enough and the whole trailerpark will come out in support. You wont get that here.

Again, I'm tired of you throwing poorly arranged arguments my way and expecting me to take your nonsense at face value. I'm closing this thread. When you have anything resembling dignity or an education, come back and it'll be less frustrating and worth my time.
Believe or not , I dont give a damn you was wrong , oh so wrong on mersa it wasnt even close
no act to it you are an Idiot .....So easy to talk about Medical bills when you dont have ot pay for it ............

[Spider]

LOL and as far as my Kids go , most here know the story , you should back the hell off of that comment and move along junior ........

[Spider]

Props to you :sunshine:

found some one to suck up to hey Barry

[Bronco Bob]

Hmm, Obama said "anyone making under 250,000 will not have their taxes raised."

Income taxes, you dope.

[rastaman]

Precisely. The government doesn't have to help everyone. End this stupid aspiration for universal healthcare right now.

Military doctors are horrible not necessarily because of their skills (everyone has the same schooling requirements) but because of their mindset. When healthcare is free, people go for stupid reasons. That causes the doctors to just say or do whatever it takes to get the whiney people out the door. I was having back problems a while back that prevented me from walking, I've had x-rays to show there is issues with it, and I went back to the doctor to see if there was anything he could do to make some of the pain go away. Some little medic briefed him on my case across the room, said I had back pain and what the x-rays I'd had in the past showed and the doctor made his diagnosis without ever coming over to see me. This was a 22 year old kid with 3 months of training telling a doctor what the scenario was and the doctor just announced a diagnosis before he had even seen my face. I got pain pills, a few physical therapy exercises to do, and sent on my way.

On the way out the door, the doctor said "just take it easy and take these pills and then when the pain goes away, do these exercises" and that was that. I could've probably suggested that if I took it easy and did what didn't hurt my back, my back would stop hurting. I don't have a medical degree. When on any given day you may be lugging around 100+ pounds of gear though, "taking it easy" isn't always a possibility.

The doctor got credit for treating another patient. My back still hurts. Enjoy your healthcare and thanks for trying to forcefeed it on me.

And that's just my experience in the last 2-3 months. I could ramble off experience with bad doctors until the Mane runs out of server space that I know of either 1st or 2nd hand.


"Healthcare" is a Right, not a Privilege! 47 million Americans uninsured and another 27 million under insured is totally ridiculous when you consider the U.S. has a GDP btwn 15 - 18 Trillion dollars. Out of all the industurialize nations, America has the most expensive HC system yet can't seem to insure All Her Citizens. 10's of millions of people have seen their savings eliminated and had to file for bankruptcy (when it was legal) just to cover medical expenses. Lastly, privatized for profit healthcare is only in it for the money and profits---screw providing affordable comprehensive care to their patients.

[Spider]

LOL whats even funnier is Cah went balistic when LABF called his wife a war Criminal , yet he attacked mine ........cah412 cried over and over about that ...
and he wonders why I think he is an Idiot

[Bronco Bob]

cheaper to buy a half of beef and have it butchered and put it in your deep freezer .......

Back when deep freezers first came out my folks bought one and filled
it with half a side of beef. By the time we got halfway through that
the meat was so stale we ended up feeding the rest of it to the dog.
It got to the point where even he wouldn't eat it.

[Bronco Bob]

Yup and wait till we nationalize health care and they can tell you what you can and can not do to get treatment ...

over weight , F you no care
family history of a illness , F you no care
drink or smoke , F you no care
Eat things they deem unfit , F you no care

or they will add fees to people who do things they decide is bad and you pay for it twice basically , taxed for it and out of pocket pay for penalties they choose ..end up paying WAY more then if it was how it is now ...

and then you get to get in line and wait if they do decide to treat you...

We already have that. They are called HMOs.

[Spider]

Back when deep freezers first came out my folks bought one and filled
it with half a side of beef. By the time we got halfway through that
the meat was so stale we ended up feeding the rest of it to the dog.
It got to the point where even he wouldn't eat it.

Small family ? I come from huge familys , I have 2 brothers left alive and a Sister .... but a side would last us roughly 6 weeks ......... But we was very active ....5:00 am = feed the Chickens gather eggs , milk the cow , ( winter time lay fresh bedding get the fire wood stacked , feed the rabbits , dogs , get showered ready for school ... come home from school , feed /water the animals , work in the fields , eat dinner , play some ball or tag or something besides work , then off to bed to do it all again the next day ..........

[Spider]

Chopping wood sucked big time ;D
but I would rather chop wood then work silage season ... hell I would rather go work in the hay field , then do silage

[rastaman]

LOL whats even funnier is Cah went balistic when LABF called his wife a war Criminal , yet he attacked mine ........cah412 cried over and over about that ...
and he wonders why I think he is an Idiot

Cah.....is brain washed and so mis-informed. Boy does he have alot to learn.

[Spider]

Cah.....is brain washed and so mis-informed. Boy does he have alot to learn.

If he is capable ... some people just cant over come stupidity ........

[kappys]

Doctors love to prescribe ****. My dad was told by several doctors he'd be dead at 50 years old. They were pumping him full of crap. He finally decided to empty his medicine cabinet completely and started over. He switched to fruits, vegetables, various herbs, regular hot spring therapy and he's celebrating his 84th birthday this August.

Modern medicine obviously has come a long way but I think all too often we trust doctors too much and the only one who really benefit are them$elve$ and not the patience they serve.

I don't know a single reputable physician who wouldn't tell you that proper diet, exercise, relaxation(meditation or some other stres relief) will do more good for you than any medications we have today. Obviously there are exceptions(cancer and such) but lifestyle is far more important than meds.

The problem is that patients also want medications - and pressure doctors into prescribing them. Docs are to blame to be sure - one hand feeds the other and the cycle continues. People want a quick fix and don't want to have to go the diet/exercise route. Its not easy for physicians to try and convince/force lifestsyle changes on someone so you do the best you can to amerliorate their conditions using meds.

That said if you were to tell me that docs benefit themselves it is somewhat true. docs are in the pocket of HMO's, medicare, medicaid, etc. and are no longer the patient's advocate. That role is gone and doctors are in essense employed by these companies to provide healthcare. The employee of course always works for the master.

[kappys]

Cah - I appreciate that you didn't get a good therapeutic relationship with the doc you saw - but at the same time your treatment is likely appropriate. I am not certain of the exact condition you have but in the abscence of evidence of nerve impingement(yes even with degenerative bone changes) physical therapy is as effective or more effective than surgery in improving long term outcomes in study after study. Physical therapy is the only way to get real long term relief from back pain and to that end pain management is more useful as a vehicle to facilitate exercise.

Spidy - Hard to say with MRSA. Whether or not the scalpel was perfectly sanitized MRSA infections have become a way of life. Unfortunately 100% sterile technique is technically impossible and some percentage of people will always get postoperative wound infections - not to say they can't be reduced to a very low number but complete elimintation is likely not possible with modern technology.
Also EKG's only provide definitive evidence in about 50% of heart attacks. Particularly when people have baseline abnormal EKG(from prior heart disease) the sensitivity for picking up heart attacks can drop substantially. That is why blood tests (tropononins, among others) are so important in makin the diagnosis.

Again without specifics its impossible to comment on any case. But medicine is not cut and dry. there are many nuances and a certain percentage of bad outcomes is inevitable and not always due to doctors negligence or cost savings but mayalso be simple acts of god or patient variability (as in an allergic reaction to a drug).

I felt the New Zealand socialized system worked well. Yes there are waits, and yes not all treatments are covered. NZ is not a wealthy country and the rationing of care is at least open and clear.

[Beantown Bronco]

Well I work for a law office, it's recession proof.

Ummmm, ok. That couldn't be further from the truth. Law firms have been laying off like crazy for over a year now. Firms are also pushing back all their start dates for first year associates. Almost nobody graduating from law school this year will be starting in September like they normally would. They're all getting pushed back until at least January of 2010 if they haven't had their offer rescinded completely.

These are just the "major large firm" layoff numbers:


The layoff numbers have hit a depressing mark: In the last 15 months, more than 10,000 lawyers and legal staffers have lost their jobs at major law firms.

LawShucks has the tally. March was the worst month so far, with 3,677 losing their legal jobs, according to the blog. There were 2,708 job losses in February and 1,540 in January.

Counting April job losses, 4,218 lawyers and 6,259 staffers have been laid off since January 2008, LawShucks says.

Considering how few in relation to the overall number of lawyers work in "major" firms, you can easily quadruple those numbers if you include all the small and medium sized firms. And these numbers only include those firms who published the numbers. Lots didn't even disclose their actual figures because they don't want to look bad when the economy turns around and they try once again to recruit heavily from top law schools.

[Meck77]

I know a couple of lawyers who are crying now. Must be tough going from $350/hr lifestyle to flat on your back.

[watermock]

I know a couple of lawyers who are crying now. Must be tough going from $350/hr lifestyle to flat on your back.

There's a joke in there somewhere.!Booya!

I didn't think snakes in the grass could lay on their backs?

350/hr, these snakes 'el do anyhing....

I'm here thru friday...

[watermock]

I know what I'd be doing if I would of gone to law school, I'd be fighting for people duped into subprimes, get a swap thing goin....

IMO, it's not that we were building too many houses, we were building monstrosities.

Jesus, look at the rest of the world a second.

100 people could live in Shanny's decadence. (Not that there's anything wrong with that).

I'd make a fine bunny ranch.

Hey, that's it meck, I'll come up and make a bunny ranch out of your geodesic dome.!

[cutthemdown]

Ummmm, ok. That couldn't be further from the truth. Law firms have been laying off like crazy for over a year now. Firms are also pushing back all their start dates for first year associates. Almost nobody graduating from law school this year will be starting in September like they normally would. They're all getting pushed back until at least January of 2010 if they haven't had their offer rescinded completely.

These are just the "major large firm" layoff numbers:


The layoff numbers have hit a depressing mark: In the last 15 months, more than 10,000 lawyers and legal staffers have lost their jobs at major law firms.

LawShucks has the tally. March was the worst month so far, with 3,677 losing their legal jobs, according to the blog. There were 2,708 job losses in February and 1,540 in January.

Counting April job losses, 4,218 lawyers and 6,259 staffers have been laid off since January 2008, LawShucks says.

Considering how few in relation to the overall number of lawyers work in "major" firms, you can easily quadruple those numbers if you include all the small and medium sized firms. And these numbers only include those firms who published the numbers. Lots didn't even disclose their actual figures because they don't want to look bad when the economy turns around and they try once again to recruit heavily from top law schools.

My brothers office had 5 atty before recession, still has 5 attys, clients like Pacific Theater and Toyota keep them pretty busy. I wouldn't really know about the overall but I do know that in the late 90's a glut of kids went to law school and the job market is over saturated with lawyers.

Many young ones just wont ever see the coin they dreamed of unless they get lucky and they get a really good case.

[cutthemdown]

Seriously though I know a ton of attys and all of them working. People still need to get divorce, still need contracts, still need to sue when they are breached, still get DUI, so IMO Attys are recession proof.

Of course they will have some layoffs like any industry but IMO it won't be like other jobs.

[watermock]

Illegal search and siezure lawsuits are pretty much dead now.

The false Flag operation of 9-11 took that off the table.

[Garcia Bronco]

Illegal search and siezure lawsuits are pretty much dead now.

The false Flag operation of 9-11 took that off the table.

There is nothing that happened on 911 that invalidated the 4th Amendment. Thr fact that the 4th is already violated repeatedly is another matter.

[Garcia Bronco]

"Healthcare" is a Right, not a Privilege! 47 million Americans uninsured and another 27 million under insured is totally ridiculous when you consider the U.S. has a GDP btwn 15 - 18 Trillion dollars. Out of all the industurialize nations, America has the most expensive HC system yet can't seem to insure All Her Citizens. 10's of millions of people have seen their savings eliminated and had to file for bankruptcy (when it was legal) just to cover medical expenses. Lastly, privatized for profit healthcare is only in it for the money and profits---screw providing affordable comprehensive care to their patients.

It is not the responsibilty of the Governemnt to insure nor provide healthcare for everyone. It is not a right, it is not a guarantee, and it certianly is written anywhere. If we allow governemnt anymore control over our healthcare we allow them more control over our freedom. We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

[watermock]

Jesus, your kidding me right?

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures.

The lynchpin is what is "unreasonable". It used to be a bar, now it's less than a speed bump.

[watermock]

It is not the responsibilty of the Governemnt to insure nor provide healthcare for everyone. It is not a right, it is not a guarantee, and it certianly is written anywhere. If we allow governemnt anymore control over our healthcare we allow them more control over our freedom. We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

We have the most corrupt health care in the world.