The federal Reserve

[watermock]

The Secrets of the Federal Reserve


by Bob Chapman


Global Research, May 13, 2009
The internationalforecaster.com/radio


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The Federal Reserve Act was legislated in 1913 to end recessions, panics and depression. Over that almost 100-year period they have been eminently no more successful then their predecessors. The Fed is a private corporation, which guides US monetary policy. Its staff is from Wall Street, banking, and transnational conglomerates and occasionally from academia. Of the 12 Federal Reserve banks the New York bank is the most powerful. The staffing of the Fed at the least is incestuous, because the member banks take part in the staffing, as they filter to the Fed what actions they should take. That is done by the FOMC, The Federal Open Market Committee. As a further example the recent stress test done by the Fed was done on many of their owners. Sadly the public is unaware of this and even business majors and those with business masters degrees do not know that the Fed is privately owned or what they actually do. For those of you who would like to get a better understanding read G. Edward Griffith’s, “Creature from Jekyll Island” and the secrets of the Federal Reserve” by Eustace Mullins.

Recently we discovered that $101.4 billion was originally secretly funneled through AIG to AIG counterparties - parties that were owed these sums by AIG, which had not collateralized derivative contracts. That is like writing insurance and having no collateral reserves set aside for losing events. The Federal Reserve in their wisdom paid off AIG’s debt with what eventually will be taxpayer debt. This is wrong and it should not have been done secretly. When demanded by a Federal Judge to reveal to whom these monies were paid and under what circumstances, the Fed said it would harm their reputations and it was a “state secret.”

The biggest gun in the Fed arsenal is the New York Fed. The recently appointed Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner was the NY Fed’s previous governor. Mr. Geithner had worked in government previously and was in part responsible for the Asian financial disaster in 1997-1998. He is also a Goldman Sachs alumnus. He is part of a never-ending exchange of the denizens of Wall Street and banking being appointed to government positions. In fact Wall Street and banking have been running our government for a long time. Many say for too long.

This kind of relationship makes government a tool of major financial interests and it breeds corruption, as we just witnessed in the case of Stephen Friedman, formerly of Goldman Sachs, and until he resigned last week, for having purchased some Goldman Sachs stock, was Chairman of the NY federal Reserve, the position Mr. Geithner had held before him. This raises the fundamental question of appointment and corruption. Never mind the other issues the Fed is involved in. this is America’s most powerful financial institution and it is run by corrupt and perhaps incompetent people. The NY fed has a very special position, because it is actively running markets every day via the 21 dealers it uses to manipulate and uses these markets. This is part of the program never spoken of that exists to assist the “Working Group on Financial Markets, which manipulates markets 24/7, under an Executive Order signed in August 1988 by then President Ronald Reagan. This was executed to protect against market failures such that had taken place the previous October. The order was for emergencies. The Treasury, the Fed, Wall Street and banking have distorted its original intent. The Fed also sets interest rates and regulates the issuance of money and credit. Thus the Fed holds a pivotal role in our financial well-being. They also are to insure the soundness and stability of the banking system. If our banking system breaks down it is the fault of the Fed. When that happens it should not be the province of the Fed to commit trillions of dollars of taxpayer money to bail out its own owners.

You can get an idea of the incestuous nature of the Fed and Wall Street in looking at the select committee that not that long ago picked Timothy Geithner to head the NY Fed. Hank Greenberg defrocked former Chairman of AIG, who for some reason was never criminally prosecuted in the scandal; John Whitehead a former Chairman of Goldman Sachs; Peter Peterson, a former Chairman of Lehman Bros.; and Walter Shipley, a former Chairman of Chase Manhattan, now with JP Morgan Chase. We wonder why the media never questions these kinds of connections all of which are tied together by the Council on Foreign Relations.

Then there is the composition of the NY Fed board on which six board members are public representatives. We do not see any common business people on this board. They are all very wealthy New Yorkers, who are all connected to one another. There have been occasionally members of labor and academia, but they can only be considered tokens. It is very definitely an insiders club.

This means the Fed’s real consideration is the maximizing of profits for banking, Wall Street, insurance and real estate. This goal of almost 100 years has made these individuals and their families’ mega-rich. Competent or incompetent they always win. They have information and intelligence no one else has and you can be sure their inner circle has the same privileged information. As usual they are essentially unregulated, which gives the Fed an additional advantage. The lack of banking oversight of recent years has brought our entire financial system into insolvency. We do not know how you could call it anything else when most major banks, brokerage houses, some insurance companies and other lenders are simply broke. The Fed, and particularly the NY Fed, has been complicit in banks and brokerage houses using leverage of more than 50 times assets. In some cases such as JP Morgan Chase the figures are much higher. In fractional banking 8 to 10 times is considered appropriate. This is the biggest bailout of poorly managed corrupt banks in history. This failure is far greater than the failure of the Lombard System in Venice in 1348, the year of the great bubonic plague that swept Europe and killed 50% of its inhabitants. These elitists have brought the world economy to its knees. It is ironic, but true to insider dealing, that not one CEO or senior executive has been fired, as trillions of dollars have been lost.

That said this is the perfect segway to bring to your attention a bill calling for the Comptroller General of the US to audit the private Federal Reserve. At last report 124 members of the House have joined Rep. Ron Paul’s bill HR 1207, as co-sponsors, to his Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009. Both the Fed’s Board of Governors and the Federal Reserve Banks would be required to report to Congress before the end of 2010. This could be the most important bill in modern American history and could lead to our financial and economic recovery. When the Congress sees what the Fed has done they might just abolish it, which is really the solution. As Rep. Paul says, “Congress should reassert its constitutional authority over monetary policy.” The Constitution gives Congress, not the private Federal Reserve, “the Authority to coin money and regulate the value of the currency.” “The Fed has presided over the near-complete destruction of the US dollar,” says Rep. Paul. “Since 1913 the dollar has lost over 95% of its purchasing power, aided and abetted by the Federal Reserve’s loose money policy.” “How long will we as a Congress stand idly by while hard-working Americans see their savings eaten away by inflation?” Only big-spending politicians and politically favored bankers benefit from inflation,” he said. “Since its inception, the Fed has always operated in the shadows, without sufficient scrutiny or oversight of its operations.”

The Fed can enter into agreements with foreign central banks and foreign governments, and the GAO’s prohibited from auditing or even seeing these agreements. There are no enforcement powers over the Fed. The Fed’s funding facilities including the Dealer Credit Facility, Term Securities Lending Facility, and the Term Asset-Backed Securities Lending Facility should be subject to congressional oversight.

Every problem we have had in our economy from the Fed’s conception and passage can be directly traced to Federal Reserve policy.

Legislation should be passed to abolish the Fed and that the OMB, the Office of Management and Budget liquidate Fed assets to insure a quick transfer of their functions to the Treasury.


HR 1207 is now in the House Committee of Financial Reserves and has been there for 3 months.


This could be the most important legislation ever submitted due to the financial conditions in America at this time.


In the Senate, Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-VT) has submitted a similar bill, which has been in the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee for 2 months.


As Rep. Paul says, “auditing the Fed is only the first step towards exposing this antiquated insider-run creature to the powerful forces of free-market competition. Once there are viable alternatives to the monopolistic fiat dollar, the Federal Reserve will have to become honest and transparent if it wants to remain in business.


Contact everyone in Congress and let him or her know how you feel about this issue as soon as possible.


As Joseph Schummpeter argues that monetary measures do not allow policymakers to eliminate economic depression, only to delay it under penalty of more severity in the future. In a market economy, economic depressions are painful but unavoidably recurring. Counter cyclical monetary measures to provide more money and credit to keep ill-timed investment on a high level in a depression are not creative destruction, but positive destruction, and such measures will ultimately be detrimental to the general welfare. This is what we’ve been preaching for some time.


Unemployment is a natural extension for stabilizing production and consumption, and its solution cannot be implemented by holding up asset prices in a depressed market economy. Unemployment is usually reduced by deficit-financing and high wages. Today that is not easy with a $2 trillion deficit, rising interest rates, monetization and the insane creation of money and credit. Plus, how can you maintain wages, or raise them, with an army of illegal aliens working for next to nothing and offshoring and outsourcing still going at full tilt? Monetarist measures cannot hold up asset prices with today’s problems, which are the worst since the early 1870s.


Looking back Herbert Hoover was wrong in starting off the Socialist-Fascist era that began the 1930’s Great Depression. Franklin Delano Roosevelt carried out that program and it was a failure. America was saved by war at a terrible price. Andrew Mellon was right in advocating that government must keep its hands off and let the slump liquidate itself. Purge the rottenness out of the system. Mr. Mellon said liquidate labor, stocks, farmers and real estate. No more high living, people will work harder and lead a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people.


The economics of monetarism are nothing more than a formula promulgated to save the financial sector and not the country, by using an elitist trickle down theory, which as recent as the 1980s had been proven unworkable. Bail out the rich on Wall Street, the bankers and insurance companies and let the poor and working poor fend for themselves. This is class economics and this is what turns the masses toward socialism. Bankers, who caused the problem, are bailed out by the masses, and the public is left to drown on their own. We are told the bankers and Wall Street must be saved or we’ll have no economy. We call this the myth of saving the criminals.


Under a Federal Reserve System the Fed has in private hands unlimited state power to create money and credit backed by the full faith and credit of the American people, which denies those people the rights of sovereignty.


Via the Fed and via Executive Order and the “Working Group on Financial Markets” we allow the Fed and the Treasury to manipulate our markets. Thus our financial elite grow richer and richer, and worse yet even professionals do not know what is going on, never mind the public. The creation of money and credit is effected in such a way that the financial sector is protected and the burden of loss of purchasing power is cast upon American workers. The capitalists do business as usual. Such pursuits have often ended in revolution. The fruits of low wages in America, a result of free trade, globalization, offshoring and outsourcing, have taken their toll. The result is more than two years of recession and now more than three months of depression. The working poor cannot afford to buy what they produce and they cannot pay the debt cast upon them by Wall Street and the banking establishment. There are no free markets. The markets are what these people want them to be. Today they feed their own debt bubble hoping, hope against hope they can bail out the system again.


These miscreatants, in what is called a shadow banking system securitized mortgages and other debt by fraud via a corrupt rating system worldwide monetizing their liabilities and buried thousands of professionals worldwide. This unpayable debt, now lost, along with derivatives present problems that are really just beginning to be addressed. All this is done with little transparency in order for these institutions, guided by the Fed, to dump their financial risks.


There you have it. A manmade disaster created by the Federal Reserve, banking and Wall Street, and these are the same corrupt group who our government has chosen to rectify the problem. Their answer is to take the funds from the public to cover their losses, be it by inflation or taxes. The answer is get rid of the Fed and purge the system once and for all.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13612

Global Research Articles by Bob Chapman

[Meck77]

Ron Paul is working on it Mock!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ron-paul-taking-end-fed-bill-before-panel-2012-05-04?dist=countdown

[mhgaffney]

Good for RP!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ron Paul is working on it Mock!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ron-paul-taking-end-fed-bill-before-panel-2012-05-04?dist=countdown
Actually all Paul is doing is .............. same as he always has done in Congress, getting nothing done because most of his unworkable ideas are just that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The more Ron Paul (https://www.facebook.com/ronpaul) supporters continue to insist that he has a chance of getting the nomination, the more like a cult they look.

https://s-external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDvhI_q8mL8r3Vw&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.addictinginfo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fron-paul-300x204.jpg (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/15/u-might-be-a-ron-paul-supporter-if/)

You Might Be A Ron Paul Supporter If… (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/15/u-might-be-a-ron-paul-supporter-if/)

For anyone who doesn't support Ron Paul, and has ever tried to talk to his supporters, you've probably realized that they are unaware of all the things they are supporting by endorsing Ron Paul. Here's a list of just 21 reasons someone might be a Ron Paul supporter...

[Bob]

Actually all Paul is doing is .............. same as he always has done in Congress, getting nothing done because most of his unworkable ideas are just that.

His ideas are unworkable in some cases because Congress does not want to fix those problems it created...just sayin...

[mosca]

The Fed and the problems it brings to the table need to continue to be on everyone's agenda for the next few years. Ignoring the problem won't fix it. Props to Ron Paul for being one of the few to focus on it and bring it to the attention of the masses.

[mhgaffney]

Thanks for reviving this thread. Mock was on the right path --

And while we are at it -- let's also demand a genuine audit of the following crime banks

Citigroup
Bank of New York
Deutschbank (formerly Banker's Trust)

In my forthcoming book I will document massive criminal activity by all of the above.

And since we are on the subject of audits -- don't forget the CIA. An honest audit would show (at a minimum) dozens (maybe hundreds) of covert operations for which there is no appropriated funding. So the question is, how does the CIA fund its operations? (hint: think slush funds)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

His ideas are unworkable in some cases because Congress does not want to fix those problems it created...just sayin...In some cases?
Name any legislation he has written that has become law during his entire career?
I'll help you out...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
First let's see just how long Ron Paul has been in congress (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread789930/pg1) for his latest stint. Currently Ron Paul is serving his 8th term as a Representative from Texas, a total of 14 years.

In total, he has sponsored 464 bills

105th Congress - 32 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
106th Congress - 51 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
107th Congress - 64 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
108th Congress - 68 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
109th Congress - 71 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
110th Congress - 70 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
111th Congress - 61 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
112th Congress - 47 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul


Now to see how successful he was with all these bills he sponsored and introduced. Let's look at how many bills he has sponsored have been passed and enacted into law.

105th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
106th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
107th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
108th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
109th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
110th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
111th Congress - 1 Bill Passed by Ron Paul
112th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul


WOW....1 bill that Ron Paul has sponsored has passed in 14 years. We are talking about a success rate of 0.22%...yes LESS THAN ONE QUARTER OF A PERCENT.

But hey...I bet that one bill that he got passed was a REALLY good bill....right? Let's take a look.

www.govtrack.us...

To authorize the Administrator of General Services to convey a parcel of real property in Galveston, Texas, to the Galveston Historical Foundation.

Or not

Ron Paul's ONE success in Congress is that he got some land given to a historical society in his home district.


To me, this speaks volumes about Ron Paul, his ideas, and his ability to be a successful President. If he can't even get ONE piece of relevant and important legislation passed in 14 years...how would he be able to be successful as President???

CONT

[Meck77]

Real change takes time Slug. Real change is difficult. It takes time break though partisan politics. (See your posts above).

Slug try and open your eyes and your mind. Our "recovery" is nothing more than massive government spending.

[Arkie]

I challenge somebody to list the reasons it's a bad idea to audit the Federal Reserve.

[peacepipe]

I challenge somebody to list the reasons it's a bad idea to audit the Federal Reserve.

who has said to not audit the fed?

[mosca]

In some cases?
Name any legislation he has written that has become law during his entire career?
Ok, so... your point is... the corrupt Congress we have hasn't passed any bills Ron Paul has sponsored? Good point! NOT.

[mosca]

who has said to not audit the fed?
People like Beerslug who have had a kneejerk opposition to Ron Paul simply because he represents an opposition to Obama.

[peacepipe]

People like Beerslug who have had a kneejerk opposition to Ron Paul simply because he represents an opposition to Obama.

I think ron paul is a joke,but there's a differance between wanting a audit which most of us all support,as well as auditing these banking/financial institutions, and wanting to get rid rid of the fed.

RP is the right-wing fringe of the republican party. his policies if ever enacted would turn the USA into a third world country.

[mosca]

I think ron paul is a joke,but there's a differance between wanting a audit which most of us all support,as well as auditing these banking/financial institutions, and wanting to get rid rid of the fed.

RP is the right-wing fringe of the republican party. his policies if ever enacted would turn the USA into a third world country.
dude, RP was the guy who proposed the audit of the Fed. he IS the vanguard.

[mosca]

http://www.ronpaul.com/congress/legislation/111th-congress-200910/audit-the-federal-reserve-hr-1207/

[Blart]

End the Fed!

Embrace constant recession!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States#Free_Banki ng_Era_to_the_Great_Depression

[baja]

In some cases?
Name any legislation he has written that has become law during his entire career?
I'll help you out...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
First let's see just how long Ron Paul has been in congress (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread789930/pg1) for his latest stint. Currently Ron Paul is serving his 8th term as a Representative from Texas, a total of 14 years.

In total, he has sponsored 464 bills

105th Congress - 32 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
106th Congress - 51 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
107th Congress - 64 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
108th Congress - 68 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
109th Congress - 71 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
110th Congress - 70 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
111th Congress - 61 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul
112th Congress - 47 Bills Sponsored by Ron Paul


Now to see how successful he was with all these bills he sponsored and introduced. Let's look at how many bills he has sponsored have been passed and enacted into law.

105th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
106th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
107th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
108th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
109th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
110th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul
111th Congress - 1 Bill Passed by Ron Paul
112th Congress - 0 Bills Passed by Ron Paul


WOW....1 bill that Ron Paul has sponsored has passed in 14 years. We are talking about a success rate of 0.22%...yes LESS THAN ONE QUARTER OF A PERCENT.

But hey...I bet that one bill that he got passed was a REALLY good bill....right? Let's take a look.

www.govtrack.us...

To authorize the Administrator of General Services to convey a parcel of real property in Galveston, Texas, to the Galveston Historical Foundation.

Or not

Ron Paul's ONE success in Congress is that he got some land given to a historical society in his home district.


To me, this speaks volumes about Ron Paul, his ideas, and his ability to be a successful President. If he can't even get ONE piece of relevant and important legislation passed in 14 years...how would he be able to be successful as President???

CONT


This shows ya just how systematically broken & stalemated the system really is.

We have system threatening problems and the system has no mechanism to fix itself.

[Blart]

Intelligent libertarian Noam Chomsky had a good takedown of Ron Paul back in 2007.

Questioner: Hello Mr. Chomsky. I’m assuming you know who Ron Paul is. And I’m also assuming you have a general idea about his positions. Here [is] my summary of Mr. Paul’s positions:

- He values property rights, and contracts between people (defended by law enforcement and courts).

Noam Chomsky (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/noam-chomsky-on-dandelion-salad/): Under all circumstances? Suppose someone facing starvation accepts a contract with General Electric that requires him to work 12 hours a day locked into a factory with no health-safety regulations, no security, no benefits, etc. And the person accepts it because the alternative is that his children will starve. Fortunately, that form of savagery was overcome by democratic politics long ago. Should all of those victories for poor and working people be dismantled, as we enter into a period of private tyranny (with contracts defended by law enforcement)? Not my cup of tea.

- He wants to take away the unfair advantage corporations have (via the dismantling of big government)

Noam Chomsky: “Dismantling of big government” sounds like a nice phrase. What does it mean? Does it mean that corporations go out of existence, because there will no longer be any guarantee of limited liability? Does it mean that all health, safety, workers rights, etc., go out the window because they were instituted by public pressures implemented through government, the only component of the governing system that is at least to some extent accountable to the public (corporations are unaccountable, apart from generally weak regulatory apparatus)? Does it mean that the economy should collapse, because basic R&D is typically publicly funded — like what we’re now using, computers and the internet? Should we eliminate roads, schools, public transportation, environmental regulation,….? Does it mean that we should be ruled by private tyrannies with no accountability to the general public, while all democratic forms are tossed out the window? Quite a few questions arise.


- He defends workers right to organize (so long as owners have the right to argue against it).

Noam Chomsky: Rights that are enforced by state police power, as you’ve already mentioned.
There are huge differences between workers and owners. Owners can fire and intimidate workers, not conversely. Just for starters. Putting them on a par is effectively supporting the rule of owners over workers, with the support of state power — itself largely under owner control, given concentration of resources.

- He proposes staying out of the foreign affairs of other nations (unless his home is directly attacked, and must respond to defend it).

Noam Chomsky: He is proposing a form of ultra-nationalism, in which we are concerned solely with our preserving our own wealth and extraordinary advantages, getting out of the UN, rejecting any international prosecution of US criminals (for aggressive war, for example), etc. Apart from being next to meaningless, the idea is morally unacceptable, in my view.

I really can’t find differences between your positions and his.

Noam Chomsky: There’s a lot more. Take Social Security. If he means what he says literally, then widows, orphans, the disabled who didn’t themselves pay into Social Security should not benefit (or of course those awful illegal aliens). His claims about SS being “broken” are just false. He also wants to dismantle it, by undermining the social bonds on which it is based — the real meaning of offering younger workers other options, instead of having them pay for those who are retired, on the basis of a communal decision based on the principle that we should have concern for others in need. He wants people to be able to run around freely with assault rifles, on the basis of a distorted reading of the Second Amendment (and while we’re at it, why not abolish the whole raft of constitutional provisions and amendments, since they were all enacted in ways he opposes?).

So I have these questions:
1) Can you please tell me the differences between your schools of “Libertarianism”?

Noam Chomsky: There are a few similarities here and there, but his form of libertarianism would be a nightmare, in my opinion — on the dubious assumption that it could even survive for more than a brief period without imploding.

2) Can you please tell me what role “private property” and “ownership” have in your school of “Libertarianism”?

Noam Chomsky: That would have to be worked out by free communities, and of course it is impossible to respond to what I would prefer in abstraction from circumstances, which make a great deal of difference, obviously.

3) Would you support Ron Paul, if he was the Republican presidential candidate…and Hilary Clinton was his Democratic opponent?

Noam Chomsky: No.

[mosca]

funny, there's actually ONE dude in congress trying to fix things and investigate the Fed but there's still water-bearers for the Repub and Dem parties who adamantly oppose it.

[Requiem]

People like Beerslug who have had a kneejerk opposition to Ron Paul simply because he represents an opposition to Obama.

No, Beerslug is articulating, which I can back up by a half of year legislative-district analysis private study that Ron Paul (in his House career) has one of the lowest-success rates for passing legislation in the history of our country. It didn't matter who was President or in control of Congress, he has authored nothing major in the very least. That is a fact. You choose to dismiss it because it clouds your fantasy that this guy could legitimately make a change. He can't. Sorry.

[mhgaffney]

I think ron paul is a joke,but there's a differance between wanting a audit which most of us all support,as well as auditing these banking/financial institutions, and wanting to get rid rid of the fed.

RP is the right-wing fringe of the republican party. his policies if ever enacted would turn the USA into a third world country.

You don't get it.

An audit would reveal incredible corruption beyond our wildest dreams. In the early part of pour country, the people also fought the central bank.

Congress actually passed a bill demanding an audit of the central bank -- the fed of that day. The bankers refused to allow it to happen. Even though Congress demanded it.

The reason for such resistance? As I indicated -- an honest audit would reveal the actual extent of the bank's criminality -- and this would turn the public against the fed.

MHG

[mosca]

No, Beerslug is articulating, which I can back up by a half of year legislative-district analysis private study that Ron Paul (in his House career) has one of the lowest-success rates for passing legislation in the history of our country. It didn't matter who was President or in control of Congress, he has authored nothing major in the very least. That is a fact. You choose to dismiss it because it clouds your fantasy that this guy could legitimately make a change. He can't. Sorry.
Again, so - - because the rest of the corrupt Congress won't pass his bills -- he's ineffective? GTFO.

[baja]

No, Beerslug is articulating, which I can back up by a half of year legislative-district analysis private study that Ron Paul (in his House career) has one of the lowest-success rates for passing legislation in the history of our country. It didn't matter who was President or in control of Congress, he has authored nothing major in the very least. That is a fact. You choose to dismiss it because it clouds your fantasy that this guy could legitimately make a change. He can't. Sorry.

All that tells you is no one wants to tackle the real problems with real solutions

and if you want to be honest with yourself you know that is true, we all know that is true.

Ya know what they say.... Ya can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Ya gotta make a new egg.

[baja]

You don't get it.

An audit would reveal incredible corruption beyond our wildest dreams. In the early part of pour country, the people also fought the central bank.

Congress actually passed a bill demanding an audit of the central bank -- the fed of that day. The bankers refused to allow it to happen. Even though Congress demanded it.

The reason for such resistance? As I indicated -- an honest audit would reveal the actual extent of the bank's criminality -- and this would turn the public against the fed.

MHG

It would do one other thing.

It would crash the global fiat money system

[Blart]

Again, so - - because the rest of the corrupt Congress won't pass his bills -- he's ineffective? GTFO.


Let's have a look at Ron Paul's bills (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html), before we call people corrupt for not supporting them.

A few highlights from Ron Paul's bills (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html):

-declare that human life begins at conception
-deny the use of the federal court to people discriminated against because of their religion or sexual orientation.
-prohibit Iranians living in the US from receiving scholarships
-reestablish US sovereignty of the Panama Canal
-prevents the supreme court from striking down any state law about abortion
-requires that parents be informed when "an unmarried minor" receives STD treatment, contraception, or abortion services before services are given.
-repeal OSHA. The Jungle was a great book, let's live it again!
-limit jurisdiction of federal courts in such a way that would prevent gay marriage, abortion, and religious freedoms from being decided at a federal level, and retracts all previous federal-level decisions on these issues (aka, repeals roe v. wade and various prayer in school cases, among others)

-reaffirm the necessity of the electoral college, even after the 2000 elections

-repeal anti trust laws
-repeal the national voter registration act of 1993. Democracy, yuck!
-repeal taxes almost completely from big businesses, but make the average American pay income taxes every month
-make each state have its own currency
-repeal environmental protections
-allow private schools with racial discrimination policies to continue to be tax exempt
-allow guns in schools, including semi-automatics, repeal laws against guns for minors and felons and domestic abusers.

-use federal power to prohibit state laws over education standards, including teacher certification.
-drastically reduce taxes on people who inherit large fortunes
-end progressive taxation. the poor have to pay the same as the rich.


Seriously, pick any bill. If you support Ron Paul, at least be aware of what the man supports. This is a good list,

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html


The "Family Protection Act" looks like it was written by Rick Santorum after waking up from a wet dream:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR07955:@@@D&summ2=m&

It starts with "abolishing the Department of Education" and ends with "Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style"

[mhgaffney]

It would do one other thing.

It would crash the global fiat money system

Not sure I agree with you on this point. Keep in mind that the fed has stolen the gold in Ft Knox -- that supposedly belongs to the people. The fed and other banksters also have control over most of the gold on the planet.

My guess is the international banksters plan to crash all fiat currencies -- at some point -- including the dollar -- and shift to a global currency backed by gold -- their gold.

The government -- acting on behalf of the bankers -- may even outlaw possession of gold by private citizens -- like in the 1930s.

Fiat currency printed by the US government actually worked very well during and after the Cicvil War. The key to success is to limit the amount of dollars in circulation.

MHG

[Requiem]

Again, so - - because the rest of the corrupt Congress won't pass his bills -- he's ineffective? GTFO.

No. This is what you have been trying to argue for the past few years regarding Ron Paul. It is the substance and issues that he brings up on his bills that is causing them to be ineffective. He doesn't get sponsors. He doesn't eve have people go along with him.

I already know the problems that the system itself has. We can discuss that on its own merits. Those issues and what I am discussing now are different than the plausibility and options provided in Ron Paul's authored legislation. There are plenty of politicians who get legislation passed who aren't the baton-cheerers for their parties or the die-hards on either side. You are living your life in a myopic veil.

When it comes to politics, that isn't a good thing, and your unwillingness to be able to separate the system from personal ability is quite concerning. You feel as if the man has no flaws, and that it cannot possibly be him when it comes to legislative failure. Well, indeed it can -- and I will take up my years of study in University and probably a greater knowledge of you on the process itself because of my education over your ego getting in the way of what is evidently daylight to the rest of us.

That isn't me being condescending, that is me being honest. Just like I wouldn't argue to wits end with W*GS on his knowledge of climatology and the like, nor a lawyers whose knowledge or research on various aspects of law far supersede my own.

It certainly doesn't mean I won't openly debate ideas or opinions, but I will. You simply have no alternative than "the system" for anything brought up against Paul. Sorry, but that is maddeningly naive.

[baja]

Not sure I agree with you on this point. Keep in mind that the fed has stolen the gold in Ft Knox -- that supposedly belongs to the people. The fed and other banksters also have control over most of the gold on the planet.

My guess is the international banksters plan to crash all fiat currencies -- at some point -- including the dollar -- and shift to a global currency backed by gold -- their gold.

The government -- acting on behalf of the bankers -- may even outlaw possession of gold by private citizens -- like in the 1930s.

Fiat currency printed by the US government actually worked very well during and after the Cicvil War. The key to success is to limit the amount of dollars in circulation.

MHG

BINGO. A full disclosure audit would expose an insane amount of electronic dollars in circulation

[Requiem]

All that tells you is no one wants to tackle the real problems with real solutions

and if you want to be honest with yourself you know that is true, we all know that is true.

Ya know what they say.... Ya can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Ya gotta make a new egg.

No, the merits of Paul's analysis discuss strictly his ineffectiveness on a personal level as an author of legislation. Discussions on problems with the system itself should be discussed, and undoubtedly reform needs to be made. There is a greater whole to everything, but Mosca's myopic nature on Paul is making it hard for him to discuss such.

[baja]

No, the merits of Paul's analysis discuss strictly his ineffectiveness on a personal level as an author of legislation. Discussions on problems with the system itself should be discussed, and undoubtedly reform needs to be made. There is a greater whole to everything, but Mosca's myopic nature on Paul is making it hard for him to discuss such.

I do think Paul is too much of a anarchist but some of his legislation should have had better backing behind it. For the good of the country and all....

IE the Federal Reserve audit

[Arkie]

who has said to not audit the fed?


The majority of Congress are against an audit. Most of the people want answers, but most of Congress would rather keep it secret. The Federal Reserve Transparency Act would require a complete audit of the Fed for the first time in its history and would provide answers.

Check to see if your Rep is for answers or secrets. It will let you know if they're really representing you.

<iframe src="http://www.auditthefed.com/wp-content/plugins/petition-stats/house-external-widget.php" width="200" height="150" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><iframe src="http://www.auditthefed.com/wp-content/plugins/petition-stats/senate-external-widget.php" width="200" height="150" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

[baja]

The majority of Congress are against an audit. Most of the people want answers, but most of Congress would rather keep it secret. The Federal Reserve Transparency Act would require a complete audit of the Fed for the first time in its history and would provide answers.

Check to see if your Rep is for answers or secrets. It will let you know if they're really representing you.

<iframe src="http://www.auditthefed.com/wp-content/plugins/petition-stats/house-external-widget.php" width="200" height="150" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><iframe src="http://www.auditthefed.com/wp-content/plugins/petition-stats/senate-external-widget.php" width="200" height="150" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

I suspect it's because to expose it would cause the house of cards to come crashing down and that is what is being hinted at to congress. Think of it as a scare tactic along the lines of "bail out" scare tactic.

[peacepipe]

funny, there's actually ONE dude in congress trying to fix things and investigate the Fed but there's still water-bearers for the Repub and Dem parties who adamantly oppose it.

Ron Pauls agenda is not to fix it. he wants to dismantle it.

[baja]

Ron Pauls agenda is not to fix it. he wants to dismantle it.

I don't see how the way we live in the world is not going to dismantle it self without profound changes.

So much of what we do is unsustainable.

It's just a matter of time.......

[Blart]

Ron Pauls agenda is not to fix it. he wants to dismantle it.

Exactly.

Screw solutions, burn it all!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MXCZVmQ74OA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Department of Education? Kaboom!

8 hour workday? Weekends? So long, lazy poors!

Crippling Depression? Bring it on!

[baja]

Exactly.

Screw solutions, burn it all!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MXCZVmQ74OA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Department of Education? Kaboom!

Just maybe that IS the solution?

[Blart]

Just maybe that IS the solution?

If you hate weekends, overtime pay, and 8 hour workdays, sure. Sweatshop USA!

However, It might be a solution for the environment, as 1 trillion in cuts would bring an instant and crippling depression to our country, effectively stopping consumerism. Except without the EPA, the few industries that still exist will be polluting more than ever. I'll call it a wash for the environment.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

People like Beerslug who have had a kneejerk opposition to Ron Paul simply because he represents an opposition to Obama.That really is an ignorant statement as I have repeatedly stated that SOME of Paul's ideas I support.

And actually, Ron Paul is anti-Right more than anything else.

The problem with Paul is he goes to extremes with some of his ideas and that can't be supported by any logical thinking human beings who understand the current world we live in, which renders his entire premise of "lighting the world on fire and starting over" as lunacy, which it is.

[baja]

If you hate weekends, overtime pay, and 8 hour workdays, sure. Sweatshop USA!

However, It might be a solution for the environment, as 1 trillion in cuts would bring an instant and crippling depression to our country, effectively stopping consumerism. Except without the EPA, the few industries that still exist will be polluting more than ever. I'll call it a wash for the environment.

I was addressing the Department of Education only.

Let the states run their own school systems.

[baja]

The thing I do like about Dr. Paul is he over arching philosophy of decentralization and filling the power vacuum by transferring the power to the individual states.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Real change takes time Slug. Real change is difficult. It takes time break though partisan politics. (See your posts above).

Slug try and open your eyes and your mind. Our "recovery" is nothing more than massive government spending.

Meck,
Message boards may not always convey what one is actually saying or what they believe in, I would think, which might make it easy for misinterpretation, at times, of ones thoughts.

If you met me personally you might be pleasantly surprised to find out you have more in common with me than you might have suspected. :)

[Blart]

Ah, well then I don't know. Our education system is complex and screwed up, and I haven't really looked into solutions.

For a quick fix on education, I'd say just copy Finland. They rank as high as most of the asian countries, except their children do much less work and still have lives.

The thing I do like about Dr. Paul is he over arching philosophy of decentralization and filling the power vacuum by transferring the power to the individual states.

I don't think decentralization is a cure - in fact, I'm pretty sure I just read a report that it increases corruption.

[baja]

Ah, well then I don't know. Our education system is complex and screwed up, and I haven't really looked into solutions.

For a quick fix on education, I'd say just copy Finland. They rank as high as most of the asian countries, except their children do much less work and still have lives.



I don't think decentralization is a cure - in fact, I'm pretty sure I just read a report that it increases corruption.

I think it's just the opposite.

Strong state government with a watchful citizenry is a much better deterrent to corruption.

I think it is easier to keep a watchful eye on government at the state level than the national level. Taken further proactive citizens on the city and county level is vital. If everyone was active in local government the larger federal structure would be easier to police. All these problems need to be fixed from the bottom up not the top down.

[baja]

Our biggest problem now is multi national corporations have essentially taken control of the federal government seems to me if we were able to make the federal government smaller and less powerful it should effectively take power away from the multinational corporations.

We need to find a way to take our country back. Bottom up is the way to go IMO.

[Requiem]

States (larger) cannot even manage themselves in a responsible manner now, yet you think decentralizing the government and allowing them to keep making terrible decisions (like CA) is going to help?

[Arkie]

I don't think decentralization is a cure - in fact, I'm pretty sure I just read a report that it increases corruption.

That's like saying it would increase corruption if we break up a "Too big to fail" bank into 50 smaller banks. In business or government, more power leads to more corruption.

[mhgaffney]

The only state in the union not in a depression is N Dakota -- which has a state bank with a charter mandating the bank look after the interests of the people of N Dakota -- in other words, Main Street.

N Dakota ia a model for the nation.

Pres Andrew Jackson presided over the abolishing of the central private bank of the day. Blart and others simply do not understand the history. The banksters do not go away. They keep coming back --

They have always had an agenda.

But why pay a private bank (the fed) to create money when the US Treasury can do it at no cost?

This is so obvious- - yet so many people don;t get it. The present fed reserve system is a money machine for a small group of very wicked men.

Abolish the fed and you kill the cancer at the root. Simultaneously create a system of state banks with a charter patterned after the N Dakota bank/

Problem solved. MHG

[baja]

States (larger) cannot even manage themselves in a responsible manner now, yet you think decentralizing the government and allowing them to keep making terrible decisions (like CA) is going to help?

The government is only going to be as good as the people demand. For the people to take back their power they must become proactive, starting at the local & state level.

Our problems came about because the citizens became apathetic. throughout history that is the root problem. The fix is much easier starting at the local level it inspires people because they can see the effects more readily.

Look at the federal system, currently we have a choice of dweddly dee and dweddly dumb for the top job. Both parties controlled by the same money people. How you gonna fix that with your vote?

[Requiem]

The government is only going to be as good as the people demand. For the people to take back their power they must become proactive, starting at the local & state level.

Our problems came about because the citizens became apathetic. throughout history that is the root problem. The fix is much easier starting at the local level it inspires people because they can see the effects more readily.

Look at the federal system, currently we have a choice of dweddly dee and dweddly dumb for the top job. Both parties controlled by the same money people. How you gonna fix that with your vote?

Being pro-active at the local and state level doesn't translate to changing anything on the federal level, which you have asserted is overrun by lobbyists, global corporate dominance, etc. (which I won't argue about or with, because there are fair points).

Like Gaff said, NoDak -- part of my stomping grounds -- is doing great things.
(http://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/the-north-dakota-miracle-not-all-about-oil)

My views on the political landscape and dynamic have changed largely from my involvement in the state of North Dakota and what I had learned at school. I don't let the boogeymen and badness in that regard get to me. There are things that I personally cannot change, and view it as a waste of my precious energy to try and do so.

Right now, I'm more about focusing on me and my family, not what problems exist in the greater American political landscape. I like the Dakota's because for the most part (especially the brothers up North) have a pretty good idea what they are doing. It is another reason I'm truly interested in going back to the area, because things are better there and see what can happen when power is in the hand's of the people.

And the reason it is effective in North Dakota, and even tolerable, can be discussed in-depth. What we have going on here cannot and will probably never be replicated elsewhere due to MANY DYNAMICS that would need to be addressed and discussed.

JMHO.

[alkemical]

Ok, so... your point is... the corrupt Congress we have hasn't passed any bills Ron Paul has sponsored? Good point! NOT.

That's the funny part.....

[alkemical]

Ah, well then I don't know. Our education system is complex and screwed up, and I haven't really looked into solutions.

For a quick fix on education, I'd say just copy Finland. They rank as high as most of the asian countries, except their children do much less work and still have lives.



I don't think decentralization is a cure - in fact, I'm pretty sure I just read a report that it increases corruption.

Decentralization increased freedom, but also responsibility. So if you live somewhere where people won't "own it", then yeah.

Personally, i'm all for it after seeing many mistakes from massive corporations that centralize.

[BroncoBeavis]

The only state in the union not in a depression is N Dakota -- which has a state bank with a charter mandating the bank look after the interests of the people of N Dakota -- in other words, Main Street.

N Dakota ia a model for the nation.

Pres Andrew Jackson presided over the abolishing of the central private bank of the day. Blart and others simply do not understand the history. The banksters do not go away. They keep coming back --

They have always had an agenda.

But why pay a private bank (the fed) to create money when the US Treasury can do it at no cost?

This is so obvious- - yet so many people don;t get it. The present fed reserve system is a money machine for a small group of very wicked men.

Abolish the fed and you kill the cancer at the root. Simultaneously create a system of state banks with a charter patterned after the N Dakota bank/

Problem solved. MHG

LOL @ the state economy in ND today having anything to do with their State Bank.

[Pony Boy]

RIP Mock

[Requiem]

LOL @ the state economy in ND today having anything to do with their State Bank.

It actually has a lot to do with it.

[Arkie]

LOL @ the state economy in ND today having anything to do with their State Bank.

It has a lot to do with it. They deposit their tax revenue into the State Bank. That ensures it goes to the North Dakota economy. Compare that to other states that give their money to Wall Street banks that lend it out of state.

[Blart]

I could be talked into decentralized power, the problem is I'd never align myself with a "states rights" group.
It's the only rights activism that is used to restrict human rights.

In reality, here's what states rights has been code-word for:

* slavery
* segregation
* avoiding the Bill of Rights
* abolishing the Civil Rights Act

And today they're code-word for:
* abolishing the civil rights act (still!)
* restricting birth control
* the death penalty
* banning gay marriage
* stopping healthcare reform


And sure, there's medical marijuana. The only time you'll hear a liberal bring up states rights. But no, that's not enough for me to accept the loads of human-rights abuses that go along with becoming a "states' rights" advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States%27_rights#Contemporary_debates

[BroncoBeavis]

It has a lot to do with it. They deposit their tax revenue into the State Bank. That ensures it goes to the North Dakota economy. Compare that to other states that give their money to Wall Street banks that lend it out of state.

That's maybe a nice idea. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the oil revenue explosion, and the thousands of new multimillionaires minted in a very short period of time.

[Requiem]

You don't know anything about the state, so don't comment on it you ****ing dweeb.

[alkemical]

I could be talked into decentralized power, the problem is I'd never align myself with a "states rights" group.
It's the only rights activism that is used to restrict human rights.

In reality, here's what states rights has been code-word for:

* slavery
* segregation
* avoiding the Bill of Rights
* abolishing the Civil Rights Act

And today they're code-word for:
* abolishing the civil rights act (still!)
* restricting birth control
* the death penalty
* banning gay marriage
* stopping healthcare reform


And sure, there's medical marijuana. The only time you'll hear a liberal bring up states rights. But no, that's not enough for me to accept the loads of human-rights abuses that go along with becoming a "states' rights" advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States%27_rights#Contemporary_debates



Trust me man, i understand your argument...and I don't disagree. But not for the same reasons you do:

I don't trust 'libertarians' to not be lazy SOB's and actually OWN the problems-till-solutions.

That's why i'm on the "meh"/cautionary side of the people who advocate the loudest, are probably going to be raped the worst.

[BroncoBeavis]

You don't know anything about the state, so don't comment on it you ****ing dweeb.

Sure thing Chief. You sound like Spider with his "knowledge" of the Bakken. :)

[alkemical]

http://www.illuminatirex.com/new-world-order-banking/

http://www.illuminatirex.com/index.php?callback=image&pid=88&width=600&height=884&mode=


http://www.illuminatirex.com/index.php?callback=image&pid=91&width=600&height=892&mode=


http://www.illuminatirex.com/index.php?callback=image&pid=92&width=600&height=887&mode=

[Requiem]

Sure thing Chief. You sound like Spider with his "knowledge" of the Bakken. :)

I've actually spent time in two legislative sessions in Bismark and set forth legislation at an institutional level that was brought to their and voted on. How about you?

[BroncoBeavis]

I've actually spent time in two legislative sessions in Bismark and set forth legislation at an institutional level that was brought to their and voted on. How about you?

Well then you'll realize that North Dakota's state oil TAX revenue alone roughly churns out a Bank of North Dakota (it's entire capital worth) about every 3 months. And that's not even counting all the payroll and other service sector impact we're talking.

Or put another way, if the bank sold all its assets and gave away all its money, it might equal a few months or so worth of economic impact from oil production in the state. The bank has a stated worth of $270 million. That's not a measure of economic impact. That's the bank's entire capital worth.

At $100 per barrel, North Dakota produces that value in oil every 5-6 days.

Simply put, as far as economic engines go, the Bank of ND is irrelevant.

[Arkie]

That's maybe a nice idea. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the oil revenue explosion, and the thousands of new multimillionaires minted in a very short period of time.

All the oil producing states have millionaires, but what about those at the other extreme of the pay scale?

Top 6 oil producing states unemployment rate

7.1% Texas
7.1% Alaska
10.9% California
3.1% North Dakota
7.2% New Mexico
6.0% Oklahoma


How the Nation’s Only State-Owned Bank Became the Envy of Wall Street (http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street)

The Bank of North Dakota, with its $4 billion under management, has avoided the credit freeze by creating its own credit, leading the nation in establishing state economic sovereignty.

We are the depository for all state tax collections and fees. And so we have a captive deposit base, we pay a competitive rate to the state treasurer. And I would bet that that would be one of the most difficult things to wrestle away from the private sector—those opportunities to bid on public funds. But that’s only one portion of it. We take those funds and then, really what separates us is that we plow those deposits back into the state of North Dakota in the form of loans. We invest back into the state in economic development type of activities. We grow our state through that mechanism.

Back in 2001, 2002, when we went through the dot com bust, all the states suffered some sort of budget shortfall, including the state of North Dakota. At that time our budget shortfall was fairly insignificant--$40 some million. And so it was quite easy to overcome that. The governor just simply said alright, we’re going to turn back 1 percent of all general fund agencies, and the Bank of North Dakota, you will declare another dividend to make up the balance. And so we did that. Our capital was in a fine position to go ahead and do that. So in some cases we’ve acted as a rainy day fund.

We look around and we say boy that is unbelievable to see what is going on in the rest of the country and here we are completely countercyclical.

[BroncoBeavis]

All the oil producing states have millionaires, but what about those at the other extreme of the pay scale?

Top 6 oil producing states unemployment rate

7.1% Texas
7.1% Alaska
10.9% California
3.1% North Dakota
7.2% New Mexico
6.0% Oklahoma




Guess I'm totally missing what you're trying to say here... Are you saying that North Dakota's unemployment rate is impacted by some financially insignificant state-owned bank more than by an oil industry with literally hundreds, if not thousands of times the economic impact?

[alkemical]

http://boingboing.net/2012/04/24/life-in-a-fracking-boomtown-m.html

http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com/2012/04/24/fracked-up-hollywoodinterrupted-visits-americas-new-boomtown/

[baja]

All the oil producing states have millionaires, but what about those at the other extreme of the pay scale?

Top 6 oil producing states unemployment rate

7.1% Texas
7.1% Alaska
10.9% California
3.1% North Dakota
7.2% New Mexico
6.0% Oklahoma


How the Nation’s Only State-Owned Bank Became the Envy of Wall Street (http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street)

State banks = great way to wrestle power from the big 4 multinational banks that have no vested interest in the American people.

[alkemical]

State banks = great way to wrestle power from the big 4 multinational banks that have no vested interest in the American people.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Transfer_Day

Bank Transfer Day is a consumer activism[1] initiative calling for a voluntary switch from commercial banks to not-for-profit credit unions by November 5, 2011.[2][3][4] As of October 15, 2011, a Facebook page devoted to the effort had drawn more than 54,900 "likes".[5] Debit card fees of $5 a month from the Bank of America are among steps leading to the Bank Transfer Day protest with a November 5 deadline.[6] Occupy Wall Street participants support the effort[7] even though the events are not related.[8] Among the detractors was Occupy Los Angeles, and Kristen Christian, creator of the event, stated that "she was accosted by Occupy Los Angeles organizers and has even received threatening phone calls" because of her pro-credit union rather than anti-bank approach.[9]

Christian, an art gallery owner in Los Angeles, California, said she was dissatisfied with Bank of America's "ridiculous fees and poor customer service."[10] She created an event on Facebook called “Bank Transfer Day” and invited her friends to close their accounts at big for-profit banks and move their money to credit unions by November 5, 2011. Christian chose November 5 because of its association with Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the British House of Lords and bring Catholic rule back to the United Kingdom, but was captured on that date in 1605.[11] [12][13]


Overview

Bank Transfer Day encourages bank customers to transfer their cash out of big banks to credit unions. The event is in response to what critics regard as aggressive fees that big banks plan to roll out, notably Bank of America's decision to charge its debit card users with a $5 monthly fee and Wells Fargo's $3 charge of the same, which Wells Fargo has now canceled due to consumer outrage.[citation needed] The Facebook page for the event states the following: "Together we can ensure that these banking institutions will always remember the 5th of November!! If the 99% removes our funds from the major banking institutions to non-profit credit unions on or by this date, we will send a clear message to the 1% that conscious consumers won't support companies with unethical business practices."[14]

[Requiem]

Guess I'm totally missing what you're trying to say here... Are you saying that North Dakota's unemployment rate is impacted by some financially insignificant state-owned bank more than by an oil industry with literally hundreds, if not thousands of times the economic impact?

Yeah, you are stepping up to a plate and swinging with every chance you get a bat. You really don't have a clue.

[baja]

"Too big to fail" banks are exactly why they should be allowed to fail or at least be broken up and regulated. Bailing out these thieves is against American tradition and proves that they and not the government are in control of these decisions.

[alkemical]

"Too big to fail" banks are exactly why they should be allowed to fail or at least be broken up and regulated. Bailing out these thieves is against American tradition and proves that they and not the government are in control of these decisions.

Iceland went after, and is jailing & punishing bankers responsible. They also pretty much removed mortgage debt for icelanders.

Icelanders care more about Icelanders than Americans care about Americans.

[baja]

Iceland went after, and is jailing & punishing bankers responsible. They also pretty much removed mortgage debt for icelanders.

Icelanders care more about Icelanders than Americans care about Americans.

Greece and the rest of Europe should have followed Iceland's model

[alkemical]

Greece and the rest of Europe should have followed Iceland's model

Oh come on...the IMF & World Bank called the shots. They know what's BEST.

;)

[Meck77]

Icelanders care more about Icelanders than Americans care about Americans.

I'm curious as to what your definition of Americans caring for Americans means?

What is that you do as an American to show you care for americans and what in your opinion should the rest of us Americans be doing that we are not?

These questions are for anyone who would like to answer them but specifically pose the question for you Alkemical.

[baja]

Oh come on...the IMF & World Bank called the shots. They know what's BEST.

;)

The thing is They are not all powerful. If the people knew how much power they really have these banksters would be in prison tomorrow.

[BroncoBeavis]

Yeah, you are stepping up to a plate and swinging with every chance you get a bat. You really don't have a clue.

Says the guy who gives a tiny regional bank credit for driving a state's economy, while oil production generates more pure tax revenue than the bank is worth every few months.

[Requiem]

Says the guy who gives a tiny regional bank credit for driving a state's economy, while oil production generates more pure tax revenue than the bank is worth every few months.

Maybe one day you will earn an education. It is quite clear that you don't know a thing about what is going on in North Dakota.

[alkemical]

I'm curious as to what your definition of Americans caring for Americans means?

What is that you do as an American to show you care for americans and what in your opinion should the rest of us Americans be doing that we are not?

These questions are for anyone who would like to answer them but specifically pose the question for you Alkemical.

People argue/support for things not in Americans or America's best interest.

TARP is a great example. Why was the $ given directly to the banks, and why wasn't each tax paying citizen given a $35k check to apply directly to mortgage, credit card, school loan debt?

That $ alone would have been returned back to the banks - yet each tax payer would have received some relief on the scam they bought into.

That is just one of maaaaaaaaany examples.


Americans are too self interested to care for other Americans. Look at the dialogue:

"Take away entitlements, but not MY entitlements".

"oh, well he's a R/D - so of course he's not 'right'"

etc etc - i can go on and on - but you only need to look at what's posted in the WRP room to understand it.

[alkemical]

Maybe one day you will earn an education. It is quite clear that you don't know a thing about what is going on in North Dakota.

Banking is key to commerce. I prefer Credit Unions, but the 'idea' remains the same. As a SMB partner/owner - i 'get it'.

[BroncoBeavis]

Maybe one day you will earn an education. It is quite clear that you don't know a thing about what is going on in North Dakota.

Yeah obviously

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/north-dakota-oil-boom-brings-blight-with-growth-as-costs-soar.html

Lots of talk about the fastest growing economy in the country, coinciding with 22 mentions of the word oil, but not one breath about the Mighty Bank of North Dakota.

Guess these uneducated yokels at Bloomberg don't read enough Mother Jones. LOL

[alkemical]

Yeah obviously

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/north-dakota-oil-boom-brings-blight-with-growth-as-costs-soar.html

Lots of talk about the fastest growing economy in the country, coinciding with 22 mentions of the word oil, but not one breath about the Mighty Bank of North Dakota.

Guess these uneducated yokels at Bloomberg don't read enough Mother Jones. LOL

http://boingboing.net/2012/04/24/life-in-a-fracking-boomtown-m.html

http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com/2012/04/24/fracked-up-hollywoodinterrupted-visits-americas-new-boomtown/



Some cool reading on fracking towns.

[Meck77]

What is that you do as an American to show you care for americans and what in your opinion should the rest of us Americans be doing that we are not?


Ok thanks for answering some of my questions. How about these?

:)

[Requiem]

Yeah obviously

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/north-dakota-oil-boom-brings-blight-with-growth-as-costs-soar.html

Lots of talk about the fastest growing economy in the country, coinciding with 22 mentions of the word oil, but not one breath about the Mighty Bank of North Dakota.

Guess these uneducated yokels at Bloomberg don't read enough Mother Jones. LOL

Besides the fact that the Bank of North Dakota contributes more to economic growth in the state than any share of taxes from oil revenue contribute at all. You must be about 12. I actually know how the system here works. You don't. Sorry.

[BroncoBeavis]

Some cool reading on fracking towns.

Hey, don't get me wrong. There's huge downside to this kind of insane development. I've seen it myself.

My LOL was aimed purely at anyone thinking any of this was being driven by a tiny state-owned bank.

[alkemical]

Ok thanks for answering some of my questions. How about these?

:)


Donate time and resources to Libraries, take care of my neighbors that need help, be a leader and own problems-resolutions. Volunteer at my old HS Radio station to make sure other kids can get the same things I got, donate old computer equipment that i turn out, to community needs that need them.

Helping Not for Profits network and find the right people to help solve needs.

Offer education to people to understand local economics, and local impact.

Help with needs & effort for a children's garden.

Work with Cancer patients to help them grow their own greens to juice. (I buy them seeds, and flats and help them get what they need).

Giving free classes & courseware for saving seeds, composting, etc to help novices & lower income people learn to be self sufficient.


That's been just since 2012 started....

Throwing $ at problems, doesn't always solve them. Sometimes you have to donate the most precious resource of all:

time & effort.


I'm not going to tell you* what to do...or anyone else. I do what I do, and i don't need recognition for it. It's my privilege to be able to serve my fellow humans.

[alkemical]

Hey, don't get me wrong. There's huge downside to this kind of insane development. I've seen it myself.

My LOL was aimed purely at anyone thinking any of this was being driven by a tiny state-owned bank.

Without the commerce provided by the bank, many supporting businesses would not be in business, they'd be setup by out of state interest, which means the $ leaves the state.

That's why a local bank with local interests is much more vital over the long term gains with a short term industry.

[BroncoBeavis]

Without the commerce provided by the bank, many supporting businesses would not be in business, they'd be setup by out of state interest, which means the $ leaves the state.

That's why a local bank with local interests is much more vital over the long term gains with a short term industry.

I'm not saying they have zero impact, although even as regional banks go, the Bank of ND isn't very big. The truth of the matter is where there's money to be made, there are lenders willing to lend. Maybe the Bank of ND streamlines some of it or makes it a little easier for local business. I'm not even opposed to the concept if it works for them.

But the heart of the economic explosion in ND is oil and gas.

Anyone trying to give significant credit to a bank for lending producers money when they need it is like giving water credit for being wet.

[alkemical]

I'm not saying they have zero impact, although even as regional banks go, the Bank of ND isn't very big. The truth of the matter is where there's money to be made, there are lenders willing to lend. Maybe the Bank of ND streamlines some of it or makes it a little easier for local business. I'm not even opposed to the concept if it works for them.

But the heart of the economic explosion in ND is oil and gas.

Anyone trying to give significant credit to a bank for lending producers money when they need it is like giving water credit for being wet.

Just a question:

Have you/do you run/own your own business? My biz is small, it makes $10k/wk.

[BroncoBeavis]

Just a question:

Have you/do you run/own your own business? My biz is small, it makes $10k/wk.

I've contracted work on my own. Never to the extent that I required long term financing if that's what you're getting at.

[chadta]

But the heart of the economic explosion in ND is oil and gas.

as it is in Alberta, they dont have a state run bank BTW, and they are still booming.

[BroncoBeavis]

as it is in Alberta, they dont have a state run bank BTW, and they are still booming.

As well as MT, although to a lesser extent.

[baja]

Oil the new gold

...actually better than gold cause we can't live without it.

[Meck77]

Donate time and resources to Libraries, take care of my neighbors that need help, be a leader and own problems-resolutions. Volunteer at my old HS Radio station to make sure other kids can get the same things I got, donate old computer equipment that i turn out, to community needs that need them.

Helping Not for Profits network and find the right people to help solve needs.

Offer education to people to understand local economics, and local impact.

Help with needs & effort for a children's garden.

Work with Cancer patients to help them grow their own greens to juice. (I buy them seeds, and flats and help them get what they need).

Giving free classes & courseware for saving seeds, composting, etc to help novices & lower income people learn to be self sufficient.


That's been just since 2012 started....

Throwing $ at problems, doesn't always solve them. Sometimes you have to donate the most precious resource of all:

time & effort.


I'm not going to tell you* what to do...or anyone else. I do what I do, and i don't need recognition for it. It's my privilege to be able to serve my fellow humans.
That's great. You sound like the other 100,000,000+ million "Spoiled brats in America" who volunteer and work IN this country on a daily basis.

Great to know you are an American. Real action in America is what is needed not words on a message board forum as the "Way it should be".

[alkemical]

That's great. You sound like the other 100,000,000+ million "Spoiled brats in America" who volunteer and work IN this country on a daily basis.

Great to know you are an American. Real action in America is what is needed not words on a message board forum as the "Way it should be".

nah, if there were 100 million + people extering effort...we wouldn't have the problems we do.

[alkemical]

I've contracted work on my own. Never to the extent that I required long term financing if that's what you're getting at.

it's a different ball game...the bigger picture gets bigger.

If you have financial instituions that care for their customers, and where they live...they look for long term opps. not short term opps where the $ is funneled out of state..removing benefits for locals.

You can't have an either/or in econ...and making sure your $ stays local builds real wealth. look @ the history of boomtowns. If there isn't long term vision, the locals hold the bag while everyone else cashes out.

just look @ the bigger picture of business. If you want to learn more...contact some in Pr @ the bank and ask for stats on how their programs have helped locals/state/etc.

it's a good place to start. I deal with credit unions. f the major 4 banks.

[Meck77]

nah, if there were 100 million + people extering effort...we wouldn't have the problems we do.

Ah exerting effort. That would require being in America DOING something now wouldn't it. Words are empty. At least we agree on that. That has been my point with our preacher from Mexico telling us how f'ed up things are in America.

So let's play with some numbers.

1/3 of all Americans is roughly 100M like I suggested exerting effort. You say that's high. Ok....

Let's call it 1/4. That's 75M people "exerting effort" like you. Got to believe 1 in 4 Americans is working to make this country better like you and not worse?

1 in 5? 60,000,000 Americans working towards a better America.

I guess it's a matter of the company you keep. Most everyone I know works, pays taxes, and does something good for the community in some capacity. I just don't believe that more than 4 out of 5 Americans is a "spoiled brat" do you?

[BroncoBeavis]

it's a different ball game...the bigger picture gets bigger.

If you have financial instituions that care for their customers, and where they live...they look for long term opps. not short term opps where the $ is funneled out of state..removing benefits for locals.

You can't have an either/or in econ...and making sure your $ stays local builds real wealth. look @ the history of boomtowns. If there isn't long term vision, the locals hold the bag while everyone else cashes out.

just look @ the bigger picture of business. If you want to learn more...contact some in Pr @ the bank and ask for stats on how their programs have helped locals/state/etc.

it's a good place to start. I deal with credit unions. f the major 4 banks.

Like I said, I've said nothing about local or regional banking. All I said was the Bank of ND has little to do with driving the economic explosion in ND. Sure it's making efforts and probably helping people related to the boom that's happening. But the boom would be there either way.

Yes, the small regional bank of ND did ok through the financial crisis. But a lot of small regional banks did ok. Especially in states where the foreclosure trend basically didn't exist (where there are housing shortages in fact)

Many small banks did ok because they didn't get carried away with their lending standards. Private banks in ND and around the region are doing just fine as well.

The only reason any of this is an argument is because ND's economic numbers are phenomenal, although as we talked about the social cost is high in many ways.

The main reason the Bank is even being mentioned here is because some people see phenomenal economic numbers in a fairly red state and have to frantically search around for a government owned or operated agency to give all the credit to.

But it's impossible to pretend that the oil and gas boom isn't fundamentally driven by oil and gas. Let's call the spade what it is.

[mhgaffney]

Yeah obviously

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/north-dakota-oil-boom-brings-blight-with-growth-as-costs-soar.html

Lots of talk about the fastest growing economy in the country, coinciding with 22 mentions of the word oil, but not one breath about the Mighty Bank of North Dakota.

Guess these uneducated yokels at Bloomberg don't read enough Mother Jones. LOL

Why would Bloomberg speak truth about N Dakota?

You expect too much of the corporate media. They are, after all, owned by the powers that be.

[Arkie]

I'm not saying they have zero impact, although even as regional banks go, the Bank of ND isn't very big. The truth of the matter is where there's money to be made, there are lenders willing to lend. Maybe the Bank of ND streamlines some of it or makes it a little easier for local business. I'm not even opposed to the concept if it works for them.


The Bank of ND isn't comparable to other banks. They don't compete with each other, they work together like a mini-Fed (only publicly owned with oversight.) It could work in any state. I would rather have 50 publicly owned state banks than a single privately owned central bank.

[BroncoBeavis]

The Bank of ND isn't comparable to other banks. They don't compete with each other, they work together like a mini-Fed (only publicly owned with oversight.) It could work in any state. I would rather have 50 publicly owned state banks than a single privately owned central bank.

Again, whether it helps or makes sense is a different issue. Not saying it's not a good bank, or it doesn't help people in ND.

Just saying it has next to nothing to do with the oil/gas economic explosion in ND. You can thank $100 per barrel and hydraulic fracturing for that.

[Requiem]

Again, whether it helps or makes sense is a different issue. Not saying it's not a good bank, or it doesn't help people in ND.

Just saying it has next to nothing to do with the oil/gas economic explosion in ND. You can thank $100 per barrel and hydraulic fracturing for that.

The economy was fine in North Dakota before the oil came. You are missing the point. The institution has existed for a long time and has benefited the state. Oil isn't the reason why our economy is doing well. AT ALL.

[BroncoBeavis]

The economy was fine in North Dakota before the oil came. You are missing the point. The institution has existed for a long time and has benefited the state.

I've never said the Bank of ND didn't exist for a long time and I made no claim as to whether it benefited the state or not.


Oil isn't the reason why our economy is doing well. AT ALL.

Here's CNN on the topic.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/16/news/economy/states_by_gdp_fastest_slowest_growing/index.htm

How North Dakota outpaced the US Economy

Allow me to paraphrase for them...

Oil, oil, oil, oil. Oh, and oil.

But the Bank of North Dakota still gets no love.

[mhgaffney]

I've never said the Bank of ND didn't exist for a long time and I made no claim as to whether it benefited the state or not.




Here's CNN on the topic.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/16/news/economy/states_by_gdp_fastest_slowest_growing/index.htm

How North Dakota outpaced the US Economy

Allow me to paraphrase for them...

Oil, oil, oil, oil. Oh, and oil.

But the Bank of North Dakota still gets no love.

But again -- why would you expect the truth from the media? How is CNN any better than Bloomberg?

[alkemical]

Ah exerting effort. That would require being in America DOING something now wouldn't it. Words are empty. At least we agree on that. That has been my point with our preacher from Mexico telling us how f'ed up things are in America.

So let's play with some numbers.

1/3 of all Americans is roughly 100M like I suggested exerting effort. You say that's high. Ok....

Let's call it 1/4. That's 75M people "exerting effort" like you. Got to believe 1 in 4 Americans is working to make this country better like you and not worse?

1 in 5? 60,000,000 Americans working towards a better America.

I guess it's a matter of the company you keep. Most everyone I know works, pays taxes, and does something good for the community in some capacity. I just don't believe that more than 4 out of 5 Americans is a "spoiled brat" do you?

3 out of five is my estimation. But keep up the good job of doing what you're supposed to do!

[alkemical]

Like I said, I've said nothing about local or regional banking. All I said was the Bank of ND has little to do with driving the economic explosion in ND. Sure it's making efforts and probably helping people related to the boom that's happening. But the boom would be there either way.

Yes, the small regional bank of ND did ok through the financial crisis. But a lot of small regional banks did ok. Especially in states where the foreclosure trend basically didn't exist (where there are housing shortages in fact)

Many small banks did ok because they didn't get carried away with their lending standards. Private banks in ND and around the region are doing just fine as well.

The only reason any of this is an argument is because ND's economic numbers are phenomenal, although as we talked about the social cost is high in many ways.

The main reason the Bank is even being mentioned here is because some people see phenomenal economic numbers in a fairly red state and have to frantically search around for a government owned or operated agency to give all the credit to.

But it's impossible to pretend that the oil and gas boom isn't fundamentally driven by oil and gas. Let's call the spade what it is.

only you're arguing that. you're projecting your own fallacies into this conversation.

You don't get that people aren't discounting the nat'l resources are being sold at high rates, what you're missing is a deeper understanding of econ/biz & commerce. You are only looking at this issue via talking points.

[BroncoBeavis]

only you're arguing that. you're projecting your own fallacies into this conversation.

You don't get that people aren't discounting the nat'l resources are being sold at high rates, what you're missing is a deeper understanding of econ/biz & commerce. You are only looking at this issue via talking points.

Go back and look at how this whole argument started.

Gaff said ND was the only state in the US "not in depression" (not true) and gave prime credit to the Bank of North Dakota of all things.

Which is silly on it's face. There's no conceivable way ND could be in a 'depression' right now because it's a tiny economy exploding with new resources. Whatever the Bank of ND does, good or bad, could do nothing to change that fundamental market reality. Have they made it a little better? Yes, no, maybe... doesn't matter to the point as it was stated.

[Requiem]

LoloLoLolOLooll***fuu***u***u.

[Meck77]

3 out of five is my estimation. But keep up the good job of doing what you're supposed to do!

Ok. Let's use your numbers then.

3 out of 5 Americans is a "spoiled brat" according to your estimation. By your numbers that means 40% are not! 40% of 300,000,000(Total population of US) = 120,000,000 of people in America who are not spoiled brats.

Alkemical. You realize I initially used a number of 1/3 or 100,000,000 which you said was too high?;D

:thanku:

I'll take my chances in a country where 40% of the people are trying to do the right thing.

Good positive people are much more powerful than the weak and negative fearful ones.

[Arkie]

Beavis is missing the point. All state tax revenue goes to the tiny Bank of ND, and through wise management, it sustains their state economy. It's a tiny state that would have one of the smallest state banks if all states had them. Most of the huge oil profits leave the state economy, or there would be millions of people living there.

[alkemical]

Go back and look at how this whole argument started.

Gaff said ND was the only state in the US "not in depression" (not true) and gave prime credit to the Bank of North Dakota of all things.

Which is silly on it's face. There's no conceivable way ND could be in a 'depression' right now because it's a tiny economy exploding with new resources. Whatever the Bank of ND does, good or bad, could do nothing to change that fundamental market reality. Have they made it a little better? Yes, no, maybe... doesn't matter to the point as it was stated.


Actually, it started with Req stating that the ND bank helped facilitate the boom.

At least that's contextually the conversation. I don't read Gaff's posts...

[alkemical]

Ok. Let's use your numbers then.

3 out of 5 Americans is a "spoiled brat" according to your estimation. By your numbers that means 40% are not! 40% of 300,000,000(Total population of US) = 120,000,000 of people in America who are not spoiled brats.

Alkemical. You realize I initially used a number of 1/3 or 100,000,000 which you said was too high?;D

:thanku:

I'll take my chances in a country where 40% of the people are trying to do the right thing.

Good positive people are much more powerful than the weak and negative fearful ones.

Dude, you're right about everything! I can't believe how i've missed this wisdom you've contained.

Blessed be Meck. You truly are a king among serfs!

[alkemical]

Beavis is missing the point. All state tax revenue goes to the tiny Bank of ND, and through wise management, it sustains their state economy. It's a tiny state that would have one of the smallest state banks if all states had them. Most of the huge oil profits leave the state economy, or there would be millions of people living there.

Exxxxxxxxxxactly.

[Meck77]

Dude, you're right about everything! I can't believe how i've missed this wisdom you've contained.

Blessed be Meck. You truly are a king among serfs!

Ha!

Nah man. Just living life and loving it here in the good ole USA. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just used your numbers and I think you realized that maybe there are a hundred plus million people who are working hard like you and me to make this country a better place. :peace:

There are people in this forum though who through their bad energy are trying to convince us how bad we have it here. Luckily the negativity is a minority here. :sunshine:

[Requiem]

Ha!

Nah man. Just living life and loving it here in the good ole USA. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just used your numbers and I think you realized that maybe there are a hundred plus million people who are working hard like you and me to make this country a better place. :peace:

There are people in this forum though who through their bad energy are trying to convince us how bad we have it here. Luckily the negativity is a minority here. :sunshine:

Working and contributing to the system does not mean people are actively trying to make the country a better place. JMHO.

[alkemical]

Ha!

Nah man. Just living life and loving it here in the good ole USA. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just used your numbers and I think you realized that maybe there are a hundred plus million people who are working hard like you and me to make this country a better place. :peace:

There are people in this forum though who through their bad energy are trying to convince us how bad we have it here. Luckily the negativity is a minority here. :sunshine:

DUDE, I USED YOUR #'s!!!!!!


I had a reply typed but Req said it far better than I:

Working and contributing to the system does not mean people are actively trying to make the country a better place. JMHO.

[Requiem]

Arkie and Al are spot on here. I'm getting in contact with a friend of mine who is a legislator in ND to find out more about tax contributions from oil revenue and it's role in the expansion of our economy up here. Haven't been around the past two legislative sessions and know some things have changed, but will update when the dude(s) get back to me.

[alkemical]

Arkie and Al are spot on here. I'm getting in contact with a friend of mine who is a legislator in ND to find out more about tax contributions from oil revenue and it's role in the expansion of our economy up here. Haven't been around the past two legislative sessions and know some things have changed, but will update when the dude(s) get back to me.

That's the real info we need, and i appreciate your erst in wanting to know more details (as do I). My state is a 'fracking' state also - and while a lot of 'benefit' has been touted, one of the major missing factors is how much of the $ leaves the state via contractors, companies & major banking/commerce.

[Meck77]

Req. If you read the thread the discussion was about the number of people in America "doing good things" for the community not just paying taxes.

Well anyway. Alkemical made my point for me. It doesn't get any easier than that.

[Requiem]

Got my representative from my old district getting that info as we speak -- and hopefully some other things as well!

[alkemical]

Req. If you read the thread the discussion was about the number of people in America "doing good things" for the community not just paying taxes.

Well anyway. Alkemical made my point for me. It doesn't get any easier than that.

Not really, but i'll let you think so. I know how much you need it.

[Requiem]

Req. If you read the thread the discussion was about the number of people in America "doing good things" for the community not just paying taxes.

Well anyway. Alkemical made my point for me. It doesn't get any easier than that.

American apathy in regards to the political process is at an all-time high. I know there are people out there making a difference in their local communities, but it isn't high and participation in turn out in regards to matters of civics and governance are incredibly low in this nation.

[Meck77]

American apathy in regards to the political process is at an all-time high. I know there are people out there making a difference in their local communities, but it isn't high and participation in turn out in regards to matters of civics and governance are incredibly low in this nation.

Low compared to what? Compared to ourselves? Compared to other countries?

Where do we rank? I honestly don't know.

[BroncoBeavis]

American apathy in regards to the political process is at an all-time high. I know there are people out there making a difference in their local communities, but it isn't high and participation in turn out in regards to matters of civics and governance are incredibly low in this nation.

It's a catch-22. Good people don't run for office (especially nationally) because our election process always devolves into name calling and dog-fights (literally :) ) far more than it brings out actual issues.

And even beneath the national level, it seems like part of what's wrong with politics is the people who are into politics. There's no use for civics without civility.

Or in other words, to get good people involved, those "involved" have to act like good people. If that makes any sense.

[BroncoBeavis]

Actually, it started with Req stating that the ND bank helped facilitate the boom.

At least that's contextually the conversation. I don't read Gaff's posts...

If you look at the first comment I made in this thread, I quoted his comment.

[BroncoBeavis]

Beavis is missing the point. All state tax revenue goes to the tiny Bank of ND, and through wise management, it sustains their state economy. It's a tiny state that would have one of the smallest state banks if all states had them. Most of the huge oil profits leave the state economy, or there would be millions of people living there.

Not sure I'm the one missing the point.

If you define the "profits" as everything above and beyond the cost of production, yes much of that "profit" will leave, with or without the Bank of ND.

Most of everything else... cost of production, taxes, royalties, etc stays in state in the form of job creation, landowner payments and taxes. Shale oil is labor intensive to produce, which is why it hasn't been economically viable until recent years (when oil got so expensive) But the side impact of that is it requires lots of people.

In some ways that's an ugly burden for many of the communities in Western ND to bear. But the huge impact of the oil boom on the state economy (far above and beyond just direct tax revenue) is undeniable.

[Requiem]

^ I provided the numbers. Enjoy. Discuss them. I'm interested. New thread for it brother.

[BroncoBeavis]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/191281/

The petroleum industry had a total economic impact of nearly $13 billion in North Dakota in 2009, a new study finds, about triple what it was four years earlier. That's four times the economic impact of the coal industry in 2009, and about three times what the wheat industry did in 2005.

And oil production in ND has roughly doubled again since 2009 (when that article was written)

[Arkie]

Federal Reserve Subcommittee Hearing - May 8, 2012

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rFCyWkxwIq4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Meck77]

American apathy in regards to the political process is at an all-time high.

So req I'm still waiting on you to back this up. What are you comparing our apathy to? Ourselves? Other countries?

Come on now dude. I'm not going to let you off the hook that easy!

Thanks for posting Arkie. You could just see the tension in Frank's face. Ha!

Inflation is most certainly real no matter how much our administration want to try and deny it.

[chadta]

Beavis is missing the point. All state tax revenue goes to the tiny Bank of ND, and through wise management, it sustains their state economy. It's a tiny state that would have one of the smallest state banks if all states had them. Most of the huge oil profits leave the state economy, or there would be millions of people living there.


Shale oil is labor intensive to produce, which is why it hasn't been economically viable until recent years (when oil got so expensive) But the side impact of that is it requires lots of people.

So could the tax revenue that goes to the bank include say income tax ? from this big labour pool that would otherwise be doing what ? im assuming there is some sort of sales tax where these people that work in oil pay as well, so sure the bank may do great things once it gets the money, but if the people dont have jobs in oil they arent paying the taxes and this greatest bank ever has no money to do great things with.

[Requiem]

So req I'm still waiting on you to back this up. What are you comparing our apathy to? Ourselves? Other countries?

Sorry, I had to go to my doctor's appointments.

Obviously the comparison was between other nations. If you aren't clear of the low-statistical outreach of voter participation and involvement in civics, check out Wikipedia. It has plenty of information and sources out there. For an "advanced, industrialized" nation, we don't turn out at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout).

Some nations have compulsory voting, some do not, but America is down there for nations that have people participate. And we are not an educated public when it comes to these matters at all. Not even close. We've been having half of eligible voters turn out.

More info here. (http://www.idea.int/vt/)

[Requiem]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/191281/



And oil production in ND has roughly doubled again since 2009 (when that article was written)

I see you haven't bothered to respond to the numbers I provided in the new thread. Why not?

[Arkie]

It's a catch-22. Good people don't run for office (especially nationally) because our election process always devolves into name calling and dog-fights (literally :) ) far more than it brings out actual issues.

I think it's much more likely that they just can't reach the top without participating in cronyism.

[Meck77]

Mock buddy. You'd be cussing up a storm if you could read this.

China's banks expanding in US.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-allows-three-chinese-banks-to-expand-in-us-2012-05-09-1725390?link=MW_home_latest_news

[BroncoBeavis]

I see you haven't bothered to respond to the numbers I provided in the new thread. Why not?

Because they don't really say much of anything. What exactly do those numbers (or lack of them) prove?

[Requiem]

Because they don't really say much of anything. What exactly do those numbers (or lack of them) prove?

You can't figure that out? Then why are you arguing? They say a lot. And there isn't a lack of them. If you lack the capacity to analyze the information provided, you really shouldn't be debating this stuff.

[Arkie]

Mock buddy. You'd be cussing up a storm if you could read this.

China's banks expanding in US.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-allows-three-chinese-banks-to-expand-in-us-2012-05-09-1725390?link=MW_home_latest_news

and so it begins...

With trillions in cash reserves, it's only a matter of time before they own the World.

[mhgaffney]

and so it begins...

With trillions in cash reserves, it's only a matter of time before they own the World.

Won't happen.

[Meck77]

I don't think so either. They'll go to war with Russia over land first and start WWWIII which we all know how that would end.

Obama is a jackass for allowing China to flex it's banking muscle in America though.

[Arkie]

I don't think so either. They'll go to war with Russia over land first and start WWWIII which we all know how that would end.


That's what will happen, either war or selling out to China.

[alkemical]

I don't think so either. They'll go to war with Russia over land first and start WWWIII which we all know how that would end.

Obama is a jackass for allowing China to flex it's banking muscle in America though.

They need collatoral - it's business - and it's only the start.

[Meck77]

Obama and the Fed should be charged with Treason. People joke about obama being a communist but there is no joking about it anymore. He's in bed with the commie bastards!

[alkemical]

Obama and the Fed should be charged with Treason. People joke about obama being a communist but there is no joking about it anymore. He's in bed with the commie bastards!

Again...they need collatoral - so...they're going to take their pound of flesh.

[Meck77]

Is it possible that our Senators and House reps will protect the secrets of the federal reserve? Urge your legislators to approve Ron Paul's bill to audit the fed.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/congress/item/11527-house-to-vote-on-ron-paul-bill-to-audit-the-federal-reserve

[mosca]

[QUOTE=Meck77;3585196]
Some nations have compulsory voting, some do not, but America is down there for nations that have people participate. And we are not an educated public when it comes to these matters at all. Not even close. We've been having half of eligible voters turn out.
Yup, our turnout is poor... I remember during the last election they were actually touting the turnout as being great (compared to the previous election) when it was still near 50 percent, I can't remember if it was a few points over or under 50, but either way it was still crap, regardless of how you compare that to previous elections.

I see this poor participation as a combo of:
1) Too many people just being mindless drones who center their lives around 9-5 work and then tuning into the boobtoob watching American Idol and just not caring.
2) Too many people genuinely caring, staying informed, but being extremely disillusioned with the two-party system and overall corrupt nature of both the Repubs/Dems. When the only two candidates on the ballot are bought out by Goldman Sachs, I don't care how you want to spin it, you shouldn't point the finger at the people who don't want to choose the lesser of two evils. When neither candidate wants to even attempt to force through the fundamental changes that need to happen to allow this country to move forward, we don't have much of a choice.

Part of the problem is that for any candidate to be successful in this crap two party system we have, they just can't make too many waves and force through these changes, or else they will be instantly labelled as an extremist, either as a left-wing commie by the Repubs or as a right-wing fringe racist by the Dems. No one is open to any type of true change these days, and if anyone on the opposing side tries anything of this nature, the other side instantly knee-jerk ridicules them for it because they are afraid of the other side actually having success in any sort of progress.

[mhgaffney]

[QUOTE=Requiem;3585321]
Yup, our turnout is poor... I remember during the last election they were actually touting the turnout as being great (compared to the previous election) when it was still near 50 percent, I can't remember if it was a few points over or under 50, but either way it was still crap, regardless of how you compare that to previous elections.

I see this poor participation as a combo of:
1) Too many people just being mindless drones who center their lives around 9-5 work and then tuning into the boobtoob watching American Idol and just not caring.
2) Too many people genuinely caring, staying informed, but being extremely disillusioned with the two-party system and overall corrupt nature of both the Repubs/Dems. When the only two candidates on the ballot are bought out by Goldman Sachs, I don't care how you want to spin it, you shouldn't point the finger at the people who don't want to choose the lesser of two evils. When neither candidate wants to even attempt to force through the fundamental changes that need to happen to allow this country to move forward, we don't have much of a choice.

Part of the problem is that for any candidate to be successful in this crap two party system we have, they just can't make too many waves and force through these changes, or else they will be instantly labelled as an extremist, either as a left-wing commie by the Repubs or as a right-wing fringe racist by the Dems. No one is open to any type of true change these days, and if anyone on the opposing side tries anything of this nature, the other side instantly knee-jerk ridicules them for it because they are afraid of the other side actually having success in any sort of progress.

The comedian George Carlin reportedly mocked that we have 31 flavors of Baskins Robbins ice cream -- but only two choices for prez.

[Meck77]

[QUOTE=mosca;3599579]

The comedian George Carlin reportedly mocked that we have 31 flavors of Baskins Robbins ice cream -- but only two choices for prez.

Gaff...Just curious. How many times have you spoken at your committee hearings at your state capital?

[mhgaffney]

[QUOTE=mhgaffney;3599856]

Gaff...Just curious. How many times have you spoken at your committee hearings at your state capital?

I'm a writer, not a politician.

[Fedaykin]

I'm a fantastical liar, not just an average one.

fixed for ya.

[mhgaffney]

That's par for the course for this place.

[baja]

Hey Mark watch this;

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L777RhL_Fz4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mhgaffney]

My hot spot has not been working.

But I will get to it.

MHG

[baja]

My hot spot has not been working.

But I will get to it.

MHG


Where is the hot spot for a male? ;D

[Rohirrim]

Where is the hot spot for a male? ;D


Right there. Below the little, silver heart. ;D
http://sinbiesp-biomedicina.com.br/adm/nl/fckeditor/images_upl/file/hot-girls-sexy-girls-58.jpg

[Obushma]

The Fed explained in a 30 mins

The American Dream

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tGk5ioEXlIM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[chadta]

sorry dood that film has been posted 50 times on this forum alone, not that it makes it any less real, its just not new

[Arkie]

sorry dood that film has been posted 50 times on this forum alone, not that it makes it any less real, its just not new

I don't know why we have to explain the fed over and over. They're a private central bank monopoly with no public oversight that fixes rates and money supply.