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View Full Version : Forming a wedding photography business plan. Looking for different perspectives.


ZachKC
05-10-2009, 09:49 AM
Hey folks, as most of you know one of the hats I wear is that of a professional photographer. I do a lot of different stuff. I do a little bit of fine art but have made a lot of my money doing portraits and even more doing live event type work. My portrait work had produced some good results and a lot of people have been on me about shooting weddings. I never really wanted to take on weddings because it is a whole different business venture with so many unique things about it but after doing one and seeing the results as well as understanding how much money is out there I have decided to take it on. I am hiring on an assistant to help out with some of the organization type stuff leading up to the event and during it so I am able to focus on a little more on the shots. Aside from all of that...

I am trying to put together my business plan and am having a tough time deciding which avenue to go down. Do I offer a CD of the photos to the bride+groom and just price that into the package? Or do I try to go more towards print sales? Or do I offer the ability to do either?

Offering CD
Pros: Really really easy to do. My revenue stream would be more known or absolute. Brides love it.
Cons: Even providing the CD at a premium cost can often mean less money than print sales. You have no control over the quality of the prints being produced from the CD.

Print Sales
Pros: Ability for huge sales is a possibility. Quality prints are guaranteed because my service would be used.
Cons: More of a hassle. Could mean small revenue because money is pretty tight after a wedding is done. Some brides see not offering CD as a deal breaker in todays market.

I would love to have one way and stick with it but I keep going back and forth. I hear a lot of horror stories associated with print sales like...so and so didn't buy any prints because they don't have much money anymore. Or just general problems that come up. With the CDs I know what I am going to make...with print sales it seems that I would generally make a little bit more but not always the case at all and I am adding more steps in a process that is already a long one.

Thoughts? I appreciate any perspectives or advice. I know a lot of you are going through or have been through this process.

Pick Six
05-10-2009, 09:55 AM
When a couple has spent A LOT of money on other aspects of their wedding, they want to hear that you're giving them a CD. You'll probably be trading revenue for volume, but you might get an easier reference from these people who are getting CDs from you after they spent all their money on this one day.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 09:57 AM
When a couple has spent A LOT of money on other aspects of their wedding, they want to hear that you're giving them a CD. You'll probably be trading revenue for volume, but you might get an easier reference from these people who are getting CDs from you after they spent all their money on this one day.

That makes sense...but...I will be accounting for that revenue up front as part of the package. My price will go up...possibly even by 1k if the CD is included. But on the other end they will know that up front and can budget accordingly and can know that when its over there is no more draining they have what they want.

theAPAOps5
05-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Also think about a website where they have their own log in to view the photos of the wedding. Anyone who orders pictures also gets a login. That way they can view and order more. Just watermark the photos online to protect revenue.

My photographer did that and it was a huge hit.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 10:31 AM
Also think about a website where they have their own log in to view the photos of the wedding. Anyone who orders pictures also gets a login. That way they can view and order more. Just watermark the photos online to protect revenue.

My photographer did that and it was a huge hit.

That is all doable if I choose the print option. I already have a "fulfillment" service in place.

footstepsfrom#27
05-10-2009, 04:01 PM
I did fashion and stock photography and event videography in the early 90's and morphed that into doing weddings. This of course was when everything in both mediums were still analogue rather than digital. I made pretty good money per event but I utterly hated doing weddings, much more so than anything else. First of all, you have to deal with the mother of the bride...which I utterly despised. They're hardly ever satisfied regardless of what you do to please them, and often times they repeatedly change what they want at the last minute or they have totally unrealistic expectations based on what they're paying for. I realize it's easier to make changes on the fly in the digital world so maybe that mitigates that as a problem. A bigger issue though was the need to reinforce everything with backup systems. In weddings you obviously get only one shot so if you mess anything up due to equipment failure, or even people not doing what they're asked to do you're screwed. I had one guy that left his lapel mic in the bathroom so I had to use a shotgun mic to catch the audio of the ceremony...bad news. I brought backups for everything but that doesn't give you any gaurantee. Then there was the problem of dealing with all the stressed out people surrounding the event...no thanks.

I made decent money in stock and fashion and event videography with weddings was something to supplement it, but ultimately I think you have to sell out to it and I really didn't want to. Grad school got in the way and the rest is history.

Good luck...

Rock Chalk
05-10-2009, 04:08 PM
That is all doable if I choose the print option. I already have a "fulfillment" service in place.

Whats the problem with offering the customer choice?

CD or Print, they get to pick it out.

All you need for CD is a Lightscribe burner and CDs themselves which are cheap as hell.

What you could do, and what I did with my own wedding is get the photos from the photographer on CD and then made a DVD slideshow with the wedding music playing in the background. Being as you are the photographer, this would be an excellent selling point IN ADDITION, having a DVD Slideshow of all the wedding photos.

Just an opinion.

TUB OF LARD
05-10-2009, 04:51 PM
MOO!

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9263/gross1.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gross1.jpg)

enjolras
05-10-2009, 05:05 PM
What are you doing with copyrights?

My wife and I ended up forgoing a professional altogether (7 years ago tomorrow) as we couldn't find a photographer willing to assign us the copyright on our own images. They all wanted the ability to resell our wedding photos in the stock photo marketplace, to magazines, and whatever else they could dream up.

That was a non-starter for us. We wanted control over our prints, and we we're willing to pay (within reason) for that. The idea of paying $300/hr to a photographer and then give them the rights to do with ***our*** photos whatever they wanted just stuck with me really badly.

Just curious:)

Blueflame
05-10-2009, 05:31 PM
ewwww



mod mode: ON

I have a question for you TOL. Do you have any actual content to add to the discussions here on the OrangeMane forum or are you just here to heckle one of our members?

/mod mode

TUB OF LARD
05-10-2009, 05:33 PM
mod mode: ON

I have a question for you TOL. Do you have any actual content to add to the discussions here on the OrangeMane forum or are you just here to heckle one of our members?

/mod mode

Member my ass. More like a maggot troll.

footstepsfrom#27
05-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Casino Royale is back.

Blueflame
05-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Member my ass. More like a maggot troll.

Again... do you have anything to contribute to the discussions other than personal attacks against other posters? ???

TUB OF LARD
05-10-2009, 05:39 PM
Again... do you have anything to contribute to the discussions other than personal attacks against other posters? ???

i will threat all broncos fans and others as kings and queens

zachkc, kmartin and sheepstud will be treated like the scum they are

DenverBrit
05-10-2009, 05:39 PM
From TubOfLArd sent via PM

I have a job for you
If you bag on ZachKC in the photography thread, I will send you a money order for $50.

Judging by the name and stupidity of the message, It looks like Boob's work.

cmhargrove
05-10-2009, 05:43 PM
I think digital is the future, but you really should offer both.

If I was getting into photogtagraphy, I would differentiate my photos by offering higher resolution shots - call it "HD" or something catchy. I recently had some shots done by a professional photographer and the higher resolution shots sure made better enlargements and posters.

I would also consider getting some basic templates and helping the bride and groom with their own wedding website. Set the whole dang thing up and give it to them- a turn-key website of their wedding. You might be able to do this for under a hundred bucks (with domain), then sell it for $1,500+ to the wedding party.

Just a thought.

Blueflame
05-10-2009, 05:45 PM
OK... well. It appears that all you got is personal attacks and then spamming other posters. We'll give you a week off and when you come back perhaps you'll bring a bit more.

loborugger
05-10-2009, 05:47 PM
From TubOfLArd sent via PM



Judging by the name and stupidity of the message, It looks like Boob's work.

Got the same PM. I dont think its Bob. However, odds are the same that Bob will pay off his 50 dollar bet as this clown paying off.

footstepsfrom#27
05-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Got the same PM. I dont think its Bob. However, odds are the same that Bob will pay off his 50 dollar bet as this clown paying off.
Mine says:
I have thought about giving you free Broncos tickets before, but you talked to Zach so you are officially eliminated. Hope it was worth it.
If it's not Casino Royale it's someone with a similar IQ.

Dendave
05-10-2009, 06:03 PM
I did fashion and stock photography and event videography in the early 90's and morphed that into doing weddings. This of course was when everything in both mediums were still analogue rather than digital. I made pretty good money per event but I utterly hated doing weddings, much more so than anything else. First of all, you have to deal with the mother of the bride...which I utterly despised. They're hardly ever satisfied regardless of what you do to please them, and often times they repeatedly change what they want at the last minute or they have totally unrealistic expectations based on what they're paying for. I realize it's easier to make changes on the fly in the digital world so maybe that mitigates that as a problem. A bigger issue though was the need to reinforce everything with backup systems. In weddings you obviously get only one shot so if you mess anything up due to equipment failure, or even people not doing what they're asked to do you're screwed. I had one guy that left his lapel mic in the bathroom so I had to use a shotgun mic to catch the audio of the ceremony...bad news. I brought backups for everything but that doesn't give you any gaurantee. Then there was the problem of dealing with all the stressed out people surrounding the event...no thanks.

I made decent money in stock and fashion and event videography with weddings was something to supplement it, but ultimately I think you have to sell out to it and I really didn't want to. Grad school got in the way and the rest is history.

Good luck...

Agree good luck.
My old roommate owns a wedding video company, and I have shot for him a couple of times. I could not do that as a full time job, too stressful. Hope you tons of success.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:06 PM
Tub Of Lard,

You missed a recent video I am in where I am golfing. Get your game face on bud. You also missed a recent photo I have up with my dog. You need to up your obsession to a higher level to shake me.

object width="500" height="375"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=4540759&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;sho w_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=00ad ef&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=4540759&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;sho w_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=00ad ef&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="500" height="375"></embed></object>

http://www.zachishere.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/5099368.jpg

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:07 PM
Got the same PM. I dont think its Bob. However, odds are the same that Bob will pay off his 50 dollar bet as this clown paying off.

Bob and I are on decent terms. I would bet the farm it is Bronco LB 59. I am not throwing internet smack when I say this. The guy has some serious issues.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:11 PM
Whats the problem with offering the customer choice?

CD or Print, they get to pick it out.

All you need for CD is a Lightscribe burner and CDs themselves which are cheap as hell.

What you could do, and what I did with my own wedding is get the photos from the photographer on CD and then made a DVD slideshow with the wedding music playing in the background. Being as you are the photographer, this would be an excellent selling point IN ADDITION, having a DVD Slideshow of all the wedding photos.

Just an opinion.

I am about putting together the video thing. Animoto is a great service that can go white label. Will prob be a strong upsell. I can offer both...its just a little easier to go with one and stick with it. It is less of a hassle when you have one way of doing things and if one turns out to be easier and bring in revenue then I will probably side with it but offering both will prob be what comes of this.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:12 PM
I did fashion and stock photography and event videography in the early 90's and morphed that into doing weddings. This of course was when everything in both mediums were still analogue rather than digital. I made pretty good money per event but I utterly hated doing weddings, much more so than anything else. First of all, you have to deal with the mother of the bride...which I utterly despised. They're hardly ever satisfied regardless of what you do to please them, and often times they repeatedly change what they want at the last minute or they have totally unrealistic expectations based on what they're paying for. I realize it's easier to make changes on the fly in the digital world so maybe that mitigates that as a problem. A bigger issue though was the need to reinforce everything with backup systems. In weddings you obviously get only one shot so if you mess anything up due to equipment failure, or even people not doing what they're asked to do you're screwed. I had one guy that left his lapel mic in the bathroom so I had to use a shotgun mic to catch the audio of the ceremony...bad news. I brought backups for everything but that doesn't give you any gaurantee. Then there was the problem of dealing with all the stressed out people surrounding the event...no thanks.

I made decent money in stock and fashion and event videography with weddings was something to supplement it, but ultimately I think you have to sell out to it and I really didn't want to. Grad school got in the way and the rest is history.

Good luck...
Wedding photography...and photography in general is not my only source of income. I am going to be pretty choosy as to what clients I take on. People that connect with the way I do things and my work in general are going to be happier with my product anyway...

Popps
05-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Zach,

We hired a pro for our wedding, and he did a nice job. We did order plenty of prints and were basically very satisfied.

However, I'd suggest if you know any amateur photographers who are friends, have them come and get another person shooting. Basically, my favorite pics from the wedding were from my friend. He's good, and a borderline pro, but he just had better ideas and it was great to have alternate shots. (Many less typical of wedding pics.)

I highly suggest two photographers.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:17 PM
What are you doing with copyrights?

My wife and I ended up forgoing a professional altogether (7 years ago tomorrow) as we couldn't find a photographer willing to assign us the copyright on our own images. They all wanted the ability to resell our wedding photos in the stock photo marketplace, to magazines, and whatever else they could dream up.

That was a non-starter for us. We wanted control over our prints, and we we're willing to pay (within reason) for that. The idea of paying $300/hr to a photographer and then give them the rights to do with ***our*** photos whatever they wanted just stuck with me really badly.

Just curious:)
Well, I am kind of with you.

I would have no problem if you came to me and said "I am not interested in you using these for stock, marketing, or any of that".

However, I would not be signing over the copyright to my images. Ever. I would work with you to try and set up a reasonable way for you to get your hands on all the photos you were looking for but signing them over creates a huge can of worms. Aside from releasing ownership of something I created there is nothing stopping you from turning around and selling it for profiting off of it in some way.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 07:19 PM
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachishere/3479109109/" title="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO by zacharycobb, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3375/3479109109_9a98a3f2f9_o.jpg" width="545" height="500" alt="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachishere/3479916998/" title="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO by zacharycobb, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3350/3479916998_7fc7c60721_o.jpg" width="545" height="500" alt="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachishere/3479108923/" title="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO by zacharycobb, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3327/3479108923_730309e351_o.jpg" width="545" height="500" alt="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachishere/3479916868/" title="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO by zacharycobb, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3616/3479916868_eb5eebda8b_o.jpg" width="545" height="500" alt="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachishere/3479108787/" title="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO by zacharycobb, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3479108787_dbc19d0c8f_o.jpg" width="545" height="500" alt="Carly + Brian Wedding - Kansas City, MO" /></a>

Sodak
05-10-2009, 08:21 PM
Are you a member of the local and national PPA? Zach?

You should be if you're shooting weddings. Rule no. 1.

Don't listen to fools who have problems with copyrighted material. You are a professional. If they can't deal with copyrighted material, they should hire Uncle Cletus to shoot the most importaint day of their lives.

If you release the copyright to your material, the cheap groom, or bride will go to Walmart or Walgreens to get your prints. Rest assured the colors won't be corrected, the prints will look sloppy, and this will reflect on your work... and integrity. Don't listen to the cheap ****s. They don't know ****.

More later.

footstepsfrom#27
05-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Wedding photography...and photography in general is not my only source of income. I am going to be pretty choosy as to what clients I take on. People that connect with the way I do things and my work in general are going to be happier with my product anyway...
I'm not sure but I think they still make the Steadicam JR. I used that gizmo to shoot the reception and the dance...awesome smooth motion effects and it distinguished my stuff from everyone else at the time. Maybe it's caught on now...I don't know...but if you're using a small HD camera (about 2 pounds or so) that can be mounted on one, I'd suggest investing in that thing.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Are you a member of the local and national PPA? Zach?

You should be if you're shooting weddings. Rule no. 1.

Don't listen to fools who have problems with copyrighted material. You are a professional. If they can't deal with copyrighted material, they should hire Uncle Cletus to shoot the most importaint day of their lives.

If you release the copyright to your material, the cheap groom, or bride will go to Walmart or Walgreens to get your prints. Rest assured the colors won't be corrected, the prints will look sloppy, and this will reflect on your work... and integrity. Don't listen to the cheap ****s. They don't know ****.

More later.
I am a member of the PPA nationally. I have found so so value in it.

theAPAOps5
05-10-2009, 09:13 PM
Nice Pics Zach. According to TOL I was going to get free Denver Broncos Tickets but I talked to you. Worth not getting the tickets (I know he is full of ****) but you get the point!

loborugger
05-10-2009, 09:21 PM
Nice Pics Zach. According to TOL I was going to get free Denver Broncos Tickets but I talked to you. Worth not getting the tickets (I know he is full of ****) but you get the point!

Wait a minute! You gave up free tickets? Dude, I only gave up 50 bucks.

Hey, TOL, hit me up if the generous offer of free tickets is still on the table. I mean, if ApaOps5 cant man up, I can.

Man, free tickets. What were you thinking? Your priorities are a mess.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 09:24 PM
Nice Pics Zach. According to TOL I was going to get free Denver Broncos Tickets but I talked to you. Worth not getting the tickets (I know he is full of ****) but you get the point!

What a great person!

bronco610
05-10-2009, 10:05 PM
I guess I don't understand what the problem is with giving a choice and pricing accordingly. I was in sales for years and what could be better than the ole choice close?

Sodak
05-10-2009, 10:07 PM
I have seen a TON of wedding photography. Good and bad. The shots you posted above are among some of the best I've seen. The formals and the candids are superb. Nice work for a KC fan.

Sodak
05-10-2009, 10:26 PM
I'm going to throw in bits here and there as they come to me.

Packaging your product is really, really importaint. Leather wedding books with the couples name and date embossed. You will also sell a great deal more if you can present the couple with a video presentation when you have assembled the shots. Impulse buying will really up your sales. I cannot stress that enough. If you lend out a proof book to the couple, it may float around the country a couple of times before it makes it back to you. By that time, the couples interest is flat, and they'll only really buy what they need. Sell when it is fresh if you want to bank.

Don't undercut yourself. Your Saturday is very, very valuable. Especially if you have a family. What most people don't understand or value is the time pro's put into the packaging and presentation. Assembling wedding albums until three in the morning. Don't settle for the cheap couple trying to save a buck. Let them go, and take the people who are willing to pay for a great photographer.

The cheapo's can use Uncle Cleetus.

Meck77
05-10-2009, 11:09 PM
I host about 5 weddings per year at my property. Compared to last year each wedding is smaller, the budgets are smaller and each of the weddings is much simpler than the year before.

Bottom line is people are shopping a lot harder these days and the higher end photographers are sitting around with their thumbs up their asses right now while the more aggressive photographers are getting the business.

Don't sell your soul be you have to be extremely competitive especially as a start up business without a reputation

The key with any business is to be referred. Most people start with a location and go from there. Get to know the vendors in your industry and if you do your job at a good price you should be good to go.

enjolras
05-10-2009, 11:21 PM
However, I would not be signing over the copyright to my images. Ever. I would work with you to try and set up a reasonable way for you to get your hands on all the photos you were looking for but signing them over creates a huge can of worms. Aside from releasing ownership of something I created there is nothing stopping you from turning around and selling it for profiting off of it in some way.

This is going to turn into a bit of rant, not specifically aimed at you, but rather at the industry in general:)

See, the problem here is that I didn't simply invite you to my wedding to take some photos. I paid you. I forked over a pretty sizeable amount of money. Me and my guests are the subjects of your photos. It was my ceremony. My reception. My location. My decorations. Mine...mine... mine. That you took the photos really has no bearing with me. After all, your just doing what I paid you to. If I want to profit of it, well that's my right. I funded the creation after all...

In a former life I wrote software for a living. When I authored an algorithm (honestly more 'creation' than a photograph) I didn't own that.. the people paying me did. No matter if I did it as a contractor or not. It belonged to whoever funded the creation of that. The same applies for scientists researching new medicines (generally) or architects designing a building.

It seems to me that photographers have gotten together and created this false idea of ownership. That's fine, it's their right... but I hate that there aren't photographers competing on the ownership issue. Given a choice almost everyone wants to own 'their' photo's. Just ask the bride and groom who they think owns them after all.

There's are obvious problems, if you own the copyright then you can assign that right to whoever you want. Wouldn't it be great to see my wedding photo used in a Valtrex commercial?

But there is also an issue of fairness. If you want to own the photographs, find your own subjects, location, etc...

In the end, for my wedding, we had a friend from college who was an excellent 'amateur' photographer do it. We paid him well and we happily own the copyright on our own wedding photos. He was an art major in college, and the quality of the photos is absolutely top-notch. He handled the printing, color correction, touch-up, etc... While I made digital copies of the photos available to pretty much anyone who wanted them, almost everyone bought prints from him.

I wouldn't change a thing...

enjolras
05-10-2009, 11:27 PM
If you release the copyright to your material, the cheap groom, or bride will go to Walmart or Walgreens to get your prints. Rest assured the colors won't be corrected, the prints will look sloppy, and this will reflect on your work... and integrity. Don't listen to the cheap ****s. They don't know ****.

More later.

It's about fairness, not cheapness. We we're happy to pay a premium for the copyrights, no one would bite. Hell I was willing to sign a contract for exclusive printing rights. That your business models depends on a form of extortion ("Only I can print ***your*** photo's... if you want a record of ***your*** wedding you have to pay ME!!") is hardly my problem.

Find a better monetization method that doesn't involve ripping me off.

ZachKC
05-10-2009, 11:42 PM
It's about fairness, not cheapness. We we're happy to pay a premium for the copyrights, no one would bite. Hell I was willing to sign a contract for exclusive printing rights. That your business models depends on a form of extortion ("Only I can print ***your*** photo's... if you want a record of ***your*** wedding you have to pay ME!!") is hardly my problem.

Find a better monetization method that doesn't involve ripping me off.

Why not just pay a premium to get all the photos you want?

If you hire me? I can't use your photos in a Valtrex commercial or anything like that by simply owning them. I would have to get you to sign a model release form to do that.

cutthemdown
05-10-2009, 11:43 PM
You could always say because you consider yourself an artist you don't give out cds.

Then if you don't get enough work you could always start offering that. Like any small business you will have to tweak your plan as you go to meet the needs of your wallet and your clients.

I don't do weddings with the band anymore because people only want to hear specific songs that I don't want to play anymore.

24champ
05-10-2009, 11:54 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/katrina456/Happy_Cow_Large.jpg

enjolras
05-10-2009, 11:58 PM
Why not just pay a premium to get all the photos you want?

If you hire me? I can't use your photos in a Valtrex commercial or anything like that by simply owning them. I would have to get you to sign a model release form to do that.

Not always. IIRC, it has to pass an association test to the underlying commercial use. It's reasonable to use a non-released photo if there is no implication of endorsement or underlying association to Valtrex.

In most cases, you'd need a release, but not all. By demanding full rights, I'm fully protecting myself.

enjolras
05-10-2009, 11:59 PM
I don't do weddings with the band anymore because people only want to hear specific songs that I don't want to play anymore.

I had a friend who worked at a piano bar who quit for the same reason:) Towards the end it was comical. I've never met someone less motivated to go to work than him...

Simply hum the Da..da..daaada.... from "Piano Man" and he becomes suicidal.

ZachKC
05-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Not always. IIRC, it has to pass an association test to the underlying commercial use. It's reasonable to use a non-released photo if there is no implication of endorsement or underlying association to Valtrex.

In most cases, you'd need a release, but not all. By demanding full rights, I'm fully protecting myself.

If you are identifiable in a photo and it is being used for commercial gain I need a model release that you signed.

ZachKC
05-11-2009, 12:03 AM
I had a friend who worked at a piano bar who quit for the same reason:) Towards the end it was comical. I've never met someone less motivated to go to work than him...

Simply hum the Da..da..daaada.... from "Piano Man" and he becomes suicidal.

Ha, I could understand that but your guy had to know what the situation was going into a piano bar.
ROFL!

cutthemdown
05-11-2009, 12:06 AM
I had a friend who worked at a piano bar who quit for the same reason:) Towards the end it was comical. I've never met someone less motivated to go to work than him...

Yeah which is why when it comes to money from music I would rather make it by giving kids lessons. I have 5 students right now, ages 12-15. I go to there homes, give an hour lesson, get my 30 bucks. It's all just a hobby when I teach or play so no pressure on me to do it more then i want.

The band plays out 2-3 times a month, we each make hundred bucks, drink some beer, chase young girls etc and try to forget we are old now!!!!!!

For the average pro sax player trying to make a living you would have to play Sunday at some church. Tuesday night playing Jazz somewhere, Wednesday night sitting in for 20 bucks in a big band, thursday doing a gig, friday, sat night you have to play those are the money nights, teach lessons during the day, do workshops at local HS etc once a month, hit the road for 3 months on a tour that pays you 3 grand plus food and lodging etc. Honestly it's a total drag to try and be a pro musician.

Only the big names have it easy. Even being a touring pro like the players who would get hired by say Madonna or Prince, the really good players, don't make more then 40-50 grand in a yr.

Really unless you record some hit songs its a grind.

Which is why I'm glad I was only good enough to do it for a hobby. Trying to make a full living from it is a huge bummer because like you said, its a job now.

Taco John
05-11-2009, 12:06 AM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/katrina456/Happy_Cow_Large.jpg



That cow has a winning smile.

ZachKC
05-11-2009, 12:07 AM
That cow has a winning smile.

Fact.

cutthemdown
05-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Ha, I could understand that but your guy had to know what the situation was going into a piano bar.
ROFL!

Piano players usually love those gigs because they pay well. I know a guy who makes about 1000 bucks to play Fri/Sat for 3 hours each night. That's pretty good money for a musician.

ZachKC
05-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Piano players usually love those gigs because they pay well. I know a guy who makes about 1000 bucks to play Fri/Sat for 3 hours each night. That's pretty good money for a musician.

I totally believe it. I shoot a few times a month for a joint like that.

http://www.zachishere.com/2008/09/19/playboy-night-at-howl-the-moon/

enjolras
05-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Piano players usually love those gigs because they pay well. I know a guy who makes about 1000 bucks to play Fri/Sat for 3 hours each night. That's pretty good money for a musician.

The money was really good. On a good friday night during college football season he'd make like $250 in about 5 minutes pitting people against each other with college fight songs.

I think his record was $1,500 in a night... there where apparently like 5 competing bachelorette parties just pouring money into his tip jar.

The piano guy is also a big hit with the ladies. He had his pick of the place most nights... it was really incredible.

Even with all of that he only made it like a year. It was that big of a beating...

GreatBronco16
05-11-2009, 02:21 AM
Holy crap Zach, you look just like a friend of mine at work. Creepy. Oh yeah, I'll whoop you and your friends butts at golf. ;D

cutthemdown
05-11-2009, 02:26 AM
I totally believe it. I shoot a few times a month for a joint like that.

http://www.zachishere.com/2008/09/19/playboy-night-at-howl-the-moon/

AT least the have a little band backing them up. That place looks fun.

I'd say my dream is to own a club or bar where people love to come and have a good time. Oh yeah and I get rich and young drunk girls throw themselves at me because I'm loaded.

ZachKC
05-11-2009, 10:21 AM
Holy crap Zach, you look just like a friend of mine at work. Creepy. Oh yeah, I'll whoop you and your friends butts at golf. ;D

Ha! I have no doubt of this. I hope to improve my play this summer. I don't even need to be that good I just want to be good enough to not be annoying to people I play with. Ha!