PDA

View Full Version : Cutler: Worst QB in the Red Zone (Orton: Best QB in the Red Zone.)


telluride
05-05-2009, 01:18 PM
This popped up in a different thread, but it seemed worthy of a post of its own. Last season, Cutler led the league in Red Zone interceptions. Meanwhile, Orton was a league-best in avoiding Red Zone interceptions.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/interceptionsinopp20.html

tsiguy96
05-05-2009, 01:19 PM
but its not cutlers fault he threw those picks...its everyone elses, including the defense and the receivers, that he threw the ball into the defenders hands...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Not surprising on Cutler. Guy gave the ball away a lot in the red zone. And that's without counting the bonehead notta-fumble against San Diego.

Orton had Forte, though. That's what the haters will say.

Garcia Bronco
05-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Does it include the 1 1/2 fumbles? The half is the one he got back.

DHallblows
05-05-2009, 01:21 PM
Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?

Kaylore
05-05-2009, 01:21 PM
I never understood why Cutler would lose it in the red zone. He would often do it on first or second down when he didn't need to panic. There were some games where he would have finished awesome and then he'd self-destruct in the redzone for some reason.

oubronco
05-05-2009, 01:23 PM
thats because Orton was either not in the red zone or on the bench watching Griese and Grossman play

tsiguy96
05-05-2009, 01:24 PM
Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?

the cardinals had the worst rushing game in the league, warner did just fine in the red zone throwing 5 more TDs than cutler. was it because he had so many more attempts? he managed to not turn it over every other possession....

Ambiguous
05-05-2009, 01:27 PM
Awesome, Orton is right on board with Tyler Thigpen and JaMarcus Russell! No need to worry about QB this year!

Prodigal19
05-05-2009, 01:28 PM
JaMarcus Russell also only had 1 int is 15 games in the redzone... Just saying.

DHallblows
05-05-2009, 01:28 PM
the cardinals had the worst rushing game in the league, warner did just fine in the red zone throwing 5 more TDs than cutler. was it because he had so many more attempts? he managed to not turn it over every other possession....

Warner is a 11 year vet.

Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?

tsiguy96
05-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Warner is a 11 year vet.

Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?

im failing to see the need for pass attempts when it comes to passer rating, and how bad cutlers was when it came to redzone? yes warner is an 11 year vet but people claim cutler is elite talent, he should be as good as warner. that doesnt make up for the fact that they had similar passing yardage and somewhat similar attempts, why did cutler throw so many more picks and not as many TDs as warner?

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Does include the Hockley (is that the refs name) fumble?

BMarsh615
05-05-2009, 01:35 PM
It seems like the better QB's in the league are the ones who throw the most INT's in the redzone. Probably because they had more redzone attempts....

I don't think the Bears let Orton throw that many passes down there.

oubronco
05-05-2009, 01:35 PM
How really gives a **** Cutler's gone and we have to live with it all I got to say is GOD help us with Orton as our QB

Rashomon
05-05-2009, 01:36 PM
the cardinals had the worst rushing game in the league, warner did just fine in the red zone throwing 5 more TDs than cutler. was it because he had so many more attempts? he managed to not turn it over every other possession....

I can think of one red zone pick against the Steelers that Warner would love to have back.:rofl:

telluride
05-05-2009, 01:36 PM
Warner is a 11 year vet.

Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?

Well, they don't break it down by RZ attempts (at least that I can find). Here's overall attempts:

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passingattempts.html

And if you're aiming for an argument that Cutler was intercepted so often because he passed so often, then check Drew Brees' numbers.

TheDave
05-05-2009, 01:40 PM
So according to the logic used in the OP:

Dan Orlovsky > Drew Brees
Jamarcus Russel > Donavan McNabb

Genius... Pure Genius.

DHallblows
05-05-2009, 01:40 PM
Well, they don't break it down by RZ attempts (at least that I can find). Here's overall attempts:

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passingattempts.html

And if you're aiming for an argument that Cutler was intercepted so often because he passed so often, then check Drew Brees' numbers.

I'm not really, but I'd like to point out the QBs being mentioned with more attempts/less INTs are elite QBs. So yes, Cutler was worse than Kurt "Howthe****does he keep it up" Warner and Drew Brees. Both were amazing last year

TDmvp
05-05-2009, 02:06 PM
thats because Orton was either not in the red zone or on the bench watching Griese and Grossman play

ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!


Was first thing I thought as well..

Eldorado
05-05-2009, 02:07 PM
Can you post pass attempts for each QB in the red zone?


http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/intperatt.jpg

edit: thats better

rugbythug
05-05-2009, 02:19 PM
Anybody who did not get nervous when we got down in the red zone last year did not watch many games.

TailgateNut
05-05-2009, 02:21 PM
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/intperatt.jpg

edit: thats better


HMMMMM. 1 out of every 20 ball thrown by Jay= interception
1 out of 59 for the newbie.

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 02:26 PM
Interesting that Shanny liked both Cutler and Romo so much...(Is Plummer another guy who fits this redzone profile?)

oubronco
05-05-2009, 02:26 PM
Look at all the names above Cutler and your seriously gonna tell me they are better QB's................................Riiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

Pony Boy
05-05-2009, 02:27 PM
When your OB knows if he turns the ball over to your defense it's a sure six the other way, he is forced to get a little risky in the red zone. I can't remember the last time our defense came out an held an opponent to 3 and out and gave the ball back to the offense?

DarkHorse30
05-05-2009, 02:30 PM
cut-and-run apologists are killing me. Too bad their boy bailed on them.

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 02:33 PM
No doubt Orton a samrt QB and will run our offense really well. Cutler more a gunslinger type who will who the Chicago fans with his arm.

In the end I think we can win just as many games with Orton as we could Cutler only they will look different and maybe not be as exciting through the air.

IMO Broncos will hope for Marshall and Royal to make a lot of yrds after the catch. They will throw to the RBS, the will run the ball, screen passes, dumps into the flat, everything. What we won't see is what Cutler gave us last yr. A QB extending the play with his feet while he looks for the big play downfield.

telluride
05-05-2009, 02:34 PM
Look at all the names above Cutler and your seriously gonna tell me they are better QB's................................Riiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

Yep, many of them are, without dispute:

Manning, P
Manning, E
Warner
Rivers (ugh)
Ryan
Brees

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 02:35 PM
cut-and-run apologists are killing me. Too bad their boy bailed on them.Well, when the defense isn't rooting for you on the sidelines because they're all in the locker room sucking on dums dums, see how many redzone turnovers you have.

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 02:36 PM
How many teams were really respecting our running game in the red zone? I know Jay screwed the pooch a lot, but I don't know if were had a dynamic enough talent at that position to put the fear of god into teams where they feared that aspect of our game. Say what you want, Forte is a great RB and teams could be planing the run more against Chicago. Let's not forget the quality of D's that teams are facing and if we were behind and having to force the ball. All would lead to inflated or deflated numbers.

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Yep, many of them are, without dispute:

Manning, P
Manning, E
Warner
Rivers (ugh)
Ryan
Brees

GMAFB. One year wonder is the best QB ever. Honestly, you can't put him there yet. Not saying he won't be, but not yet.

frerottenextelway
05-05-2009, 02:43 PM
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/intperatt.jpg

edit: thats better

Thigpen is like twice as good as Drew Brees.

Crushaholic
05-05-2009, 02:44 PM
I was talking to a Bears fan last week about trading quarterbacks. He's excited about Cutler, obviously. I told him that he's very good within the 20s, but not so good in the redzone. All he could grumble is "shut up"...Ha!

frerottenextelway
05-05-2009, 02:48 PM
When your OB knows if he turns the ball over to your defense it's a sure six the other way, he is forced to get a little risky in the red zone. I can't remember the last time our defense came out an held an opponent to 3 and out and gave the ball back to the offense?

Yeah. In comparison, look at the Colts game against the lowly Browns. Their offense scored 3 eff'n points, but they won that game. That kind of thing never happened to us. Cutler had to carry the team, which is why the most simliar team sans the QB position had 0 wins, which is about what we would've had had Ramsey been the QB last year.

telluride
05-05-2009, 02:50 PM
GMAFB. One year wonder is the best QB ever. Honestly, you can't put him there yet. Not saying he won't be, but not yet.

Ryan already seems able to do something that Cutler can not: win.

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 02:51 PM
Thigpen is like twice as good as Drew Brees.Anyone who is drawing global conclusions from a pretty localized and limited sample is silly. And somehow your burn is even worse. Regardless, it should discourage anyone that Cutler is so far down on that list.

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 02:51 PM
Anybody who did not get nervous when we got down in the red zone last year did not watch many games.

I was nervous everytime Cutler threw it. He was so dangerous. Sure lot's of times I was like NOOOOOOOOO then I was like OH MY GOD THAT WAS AN AMAZING THROW, but nervous all the time for sure.

Cutler is an amazing player. Whether that means he will win is still up in the air. I wonder if he has the self evaluation tool he needs to work on his game. I think his ego and self importance are through the roof.

I know that if Pat Bowlen called me I would be on the phone showing respect no matter what. It's just how my dad raised me. When another man wants to talk you don't disrespect him by ignoring him.

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 02:55 PM
That graph should also show how many TDS were scored in redzone. Just the int isn't the whole story.

Also Cutler should have had another fumble in redzone that should have cost us a game, but he got lucky.

Cutler no doubt has ball control issues, he can fix them, but I'm betting he doesn't have those type of skills. You know the ones were you evaluate your weaknesses and try and get better. IMO he really thinks he is as good as Elway ever was. He thinks the only thing missing is the rings, honor, love of the fans, respect, adoration etc.

He forgets how hard Elway worked.

TDmvp
05-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Ryan already seems able to do something that Cutler can not: win.

That makes you sound uneducated and bitter . But that comparison prove lots about your football knowledge .

Football Tellu btw is a team game . You see it takes more then one guy to claim victory and when you do win it's many peoples doing not just one .


I understand all the Cutler hate ... And i'm totally not happy with how the story played out or ended ... But you guys who all of a sudden want to act like he isn't a top 10 qb are just either bull$hitting yourself to lighten the loss or delusional .

But o well ... time will tell ...

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 03:04 PM
Ryan already seems able to do something that Cutler can not: win.

Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Cutler? Ryan's D gave up 8 less points a game and his Offense only scored 1 more point a game. He is a great young player, but he has a better team around him.

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 03:08 PM
That makes you sound uneducated and bitter . But that comparison prove lots about your football knowledge .

Football Tellu btw is a team game . You see it takes more then one guy to claim victory and when you do win it's many peoples doing not just one .


I understand all the Cutler hate ... And i'm totally not happy with how the story played out or ended ... But you guys who all of a sudden want to act like he isn't a top 10 qb are just either bull$hitting yourself to lighten the loss or delusional .

But o well ... time will tell ...

Right on. REP

El Minion
05-05-2009, 03:11 PM
So according to the logic used in the OP:

Dan Orlovsky > Drew Brees
Jamarcus Russel > Donavan McNabb

Genius... Pure Genius.

And if the same logic is applied to playoff appearances and wins the results are:

Grossman>Orton>Cutler

I think we should pick up Grossman, he is a FA and obliviously better

Eldorado
05-05-2009, 03:28 PM
That graph should also show how many TDS were scored in redzone. Just the int isn't the whole story.

Also Cutler should have had another fumble in redzone that should have cost us a game, but he got lucky.

Cutler no doubt has ball control issues, he can fix them, but I'm betting he doesn't have those type of skills. You know the ones were you evaluate your weaknesses and try and get better. IMO he really thinks he is as good as Elway ever was. He thinks the only thing missing is the rings, honor, love of the fans, respect, adoration etc.

He forgets how hard Elway worked.

I agree. I looked for it but couldn't find passing TD's in the red zone.

Drek
05-05-2009, 03:31 PM
Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Cutler? Ryan's D gave up 8 less points a game and his Offense only scored 1 more point a game. He is a great young player, but he has a better team around him.

So the Falcons offense being better than the Broncos at putting up points is because, and lets make sure there isn't a mistake about what you're trying to say here, Ryan's team is better?

I'll give you RB. But name a position other than that where the Falcons are better on offense than the Broncos.

Who's better on the OL? Our weakest OL position is OG, and Hamilton and Kuper are both better than what 3/4ths of this league has at either OG spot, including the Falcons.

Roddy White, better than Brandon Marshall? Really?

Who they got on par with Eddie Royal? Brandon Stokley? Daniel Graham? Tony Scheffler?

Ryan did more offensively than Cutler and with a whole world less talent. As a rookie. Cutler is in his third season.

That makes you sound uneducated and bitter . But that comparison prove lots about your football knowledge .

Football Tellu btw is a team game . You see it takes more then one guy to claim victory and when you do win it's many peoples doing not just one .


I understand all the Cutler hate ... And i'm totally not happy with how the story played out or ended ... But you guys who all of a sudden want to act like he isn't a top 10 qb are just either bull$hitting yourself to lighten the loss or delusional .

But o well ... time will tell ...

I said before Shanahan was even fired (hell, shortly after we missed the playoffs) that Cutler and Ryan where a toss up, and that Flacco wasn't far behind.

Cutler isn't a top 10 QB except on paper. He's what Lee Flowers would call a "paper champion". Ask anyone in the NFL, QBs get the glory from victories and the blame for losses. Is it fair? Not on either end of the spectrum really. But if you think its a coincidence that our team's red zone problems have only gotten worse since Cutler replaced Plummer, while the rest of the talent around the QB has improved, then you're just the picture of naivete.

Cutler wasn't, and still isn't, that damn good. He rode a hot first half to a pro-bowl appearance he didn't deserve while laying eggs in multiple home games and always playing his worst football down the stretch. He's got the talent to be elite, but so have a lot of guys who never did **** with it.

TDmvp
05-05-2009, 03:38 PM
Regardless of all this I would rather have Cutler then what we got for him AT THIS POINT . The picks would have to have great careers and Kyle would have to play ABOVE what he has done so far to make it a fair/worthy trade IF Jay plays as well for the Bears as he did for us as far as #'s ...


But for you all who seem to think this is great and we are better for it
just keep polishing that turd .

http://loanworkout.org/wp-content/uploads/turd-polish.jpg

colonelbeef
05-05-2009, 03:47 PM
thats because Orton was either not in the red zone or on the bench watching Griese and Grossman play

lol, so true. This has more to do with attempts and red zone running than the play of the QBs, moranz


It really is sad watching some die hard Broncos fans try to justify the loss of Cutler. there is no justification for it, all the spin in the world doesn't make the trade a good idea, and it never will. This is going to be a hard lesson for some of you

footstepsfrom#27
05-05-2009, 03:50 PM
High number of red zone passes and no consistent running game coupled with Cutler's confidence in his arm...is that something that couldn't be fixed? I think not.

colonelbeef
05-05-2009, 03:54 PM
High number of red zone passes and no consistent running game coupled with Cutler's confidence in his arm...is that something that couldn't be fixed? I think not.

Numbers never tell the complete story. Was Jim Kelly ever a better QB than Elway? Of course not. Some here are willing to bend any statistic in order to somehow elevate Kyle Orton to Jay Cutlers' level, absurd to say the least.

Drek
05-05-2009, 03:59 PM
Numbers never tell the complete story. Was Jim Kelly ever a better QB than Elway? Of course not. Some here are willing to bend any statistic in order to somehow elevate Kyle Orton to Jay Cutlers' level, absurd to say the least.

Funny, the entire argument for Cutler being more than a middle of the road QB is based on numbers. Numbers he compiled with elite performers all around him.

footstepsfrom#27
05-05-2009, 04:06 PM
Numbers never tell the complete story. Was Jim Kelly ever a better QB than Elway? Of course not. Some here are willing to bend any statistic in order to somehow elevate Kyle Orton to Jay Cutlers' level, absurd to say the least.
Correct. It's also foolish to divorce the player from the surrounding offensive context of the entire team. People act like Cutler's game is complete when the truth is any young QB is in a refining process. The over abundance of confidence in his arm is the only real problem he's got at this point, and that's something that gets corrected over time. Favre had the same issue. The important thing is the talent and how a coaching staff can work with it. You can coach improvement but you can't add talent where it doesn't exist.

Kaylore
05-05-2009, 04:07 PM
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/intperatt.jpg

edit: thats better

Some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. Campbell and Pennington for example, love to check down even if it means going three and out. Campbell especially plays pretty scared. They're good at protecting the ball, but they're not like Manning who attacks down field but also doesn't make mistakes. A good balance.

I lol'd when I saw Romo and Garrard's numbers, though.

TonyR
05-05-2009, 04:21 PM
People act like Cutler's game is complete when the truth is any young QB is in a refining process.

Just a reminder that Matt Ryan was a ROOKIE last season.

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Jay plays as well for the Bears as he did for us as far as #'s What about wins and championships? Isn't that what counts?

maher_tyler
05-05-2009, 04:31 PM
So the Falcons offense being better than the Broncos at putting up points is because, and lets make sure there isn't a mistake about what you're trying to say here, Ryan's team is better?

I'll give you RB. But name a position other than that where the Falcons are better on offense than the Broncos.

Who's better on the OL? Our weakest OL position is OG, and Hamilton and Kuper are both better than what 3/4ths of this league has at either OG spot, including the Falcons.

Roddy White, better than Brandon Marshall? Really?

Who they got on par with Eddie Royal? Brandon Stokley? Daniel Graham? Tony Scheffler?

Ryan did more offensively than Cutler and with a whole world less talent. As a rookie. Cutler is in his third season.



I said before Shanahan was even fired (hell, shortly after we missed the playoffs) that Cutler and Ryan where a toss up, and that Flacco wasn't far behind.

Cutler isn't a top 10 QB except on paper. He's what Lee Flowers would call a "paper champion". Ask anyone in the NFL, QBs get the glory from victories and the blame for losses. Is it fair? Not on either end of the spectrum really. But if you think its a coincidence that our team's red zone problems have only gotten worse since Cutler replaced Plummer, while the rest of the talent around the QB has improved, then you're just the picture of naivete.

Cutler wasn't, and still isn't, that damn good. He rode a hot first half to a pro-bowl appearance he didn't deserve while laying eggs in multiple home games and always playing his worst football down the stretch. He's got the talent to be elite, but so have a lot of guys who never did **** with it.

Great post..you seem to be the only one who posts logically around here anymore..everyone making excuses for why he threw int's in the RZ...there is no excuse for poor decision making..throw the ball outta the back of the end zone and take the 3...those TO's always seemed to kill the flow we had on O for the rest of the game.

TDmvp
05-05-2009, 04:33 PM
Funny, the entire argument for Cutler being more than a middle of the road QB is based on numbers. Numbers he compiled with elite performers all around him.


Who has based it on #'s ... Most I see in the NFL as far as coaches and players , media , and people here have based it more on his SKILL SET and film showing him doing things physically not many QBs can do . And then they follow that up by dissing him on stats from win loss record and so on.


And before someone whips out Jeff George's name ... All Jeff had was a good deep ball arm ... hence why Al Davis had a hard on for him . He didn't move like Jay , complete close covered passes like slants like Jay or work through a progression to the 3rd or 4th option like jay ... period.

Now go watch film of Jay in 3rd and 5 or more ... He is Manning , Brady good . I remember actually being scared on 3rd and 5 or more when Jake was here , and I loved Jake ... After Jay took over 3rd down conversions became almost a strength . Coaches and smart people know when Jay grows Up which he needs to do and will and becomes a little more coachable and less thin skinned MUCH like John in his late 20's early 30's he has a skill set and gifts you just can't teach and surrounded by a average top 15 D and a team that is responsible and just plays its game and does their jobs can win titles with Jay .


Not many HOF QBs would have had better then a 8-8 record if they QBed the Broncos of last year with the injuries and play at safety .

We can win without a franchise Qb but for 10 years most of us Bished about wanting one.


Nothing personal Drek but study more ,cause shooting that down was as easy as making "Bob" look stupid.
Moving on .

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 04:41 PM
Regardless of all this I would rather have Cutler then what we got for him AT THIS POINT . The picks would have to have great careers and Kyle would have to play ABOVE what he has done so far to make it a fair/worthy trade IF Jay plays as well for the Bears as he did for us as far as #'s ...


But for you all who seem to think this is great and we are better for it
just keep polishing that turd .

http://loanworkout.org/wp-content/uploads/turd-polish.jpg

I would also rather have Cutler but what's done is done. He turned his back on the fans, threw us under the bus when he got to Chicago saying Bears fans have more passion. He just wanted to be gone it was very obvious. I think had it not happened this yr it could very well have happened later on. I think Jay said it all when he said this in an interview.

He said people will never know the whole story. Then he went on and said, there were other issues the media didn't know about and I'm not going to talk about them. Everyone assumes that this is something Broncos also know.

But maybe it was something only him and his agent knew. Like doctors telling him he would perform better at a lower altitude. Or doctors saying those season ending fades you feel is the diabetes. Could be a lot of things but it seems no matter what Broncos tried he was steadfast he wanted out.

IMO we won't know whole story until a lot of time passes and Bus Cook writes a book about how he forced teams to trade players to get most money for clients.

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 04:47 PM
Honestly Ayers and Smith would have to be all pros to make this trade seem fair.

The only way it can possible work out for us is all on Orton.

If Orton can score almost as much as Cutler did, and Ayers and Smith can stop 1 td a game between them, then maybe we can make this work.

It's all up to the defense getting better, special teams getting better, Orton playing decent.

We need all 3 of those things to happen or Broncos are in for a long yr.

I really think defense is way better. I'm not just a homer I would say if I thought it was as bad as last yr.

Ayers I think has better size and can play better then Engleberger or Ekuban did last yr. Dawkins and Hill are so much better then McCree and Manual its not even a debate. Davis is at least bigger then Webster and I think that will help. If Bailey is healthy and Goodman can play up to or better then Bly then we will also be better at CB. If the rookie can play nickle maybe even much better.

I like the idea of finding out if Askew, Powell, etc can play in NFL, at least they are big and can prob help clog the 5 technique spot so linebackers can roam. Like all of you I don't expect a lot of pressure from any of the 3-4 DE we might put out. But when we go 4-3 I think Ayers and Doom could make some pressure. And in 3-4 I think maybe they can from OLB spots.

Rock Chalk
05-05-2009, 04:53 PM
I never understood why Cutler would lose it in the red zone. He would often do it on first or second down when he didn't need to panic. There were some games where he would have finished awesome and then he'd self-destruct in the redzone for some reason.

Choker.

There's your answer.

He did it at Vanderbilt, he did it in Denver, he will do it in Chicago.

Good riddance.

Now if only his followers would follow him to Chicago.

elsid13
05-05-2009, 04:54 PM
Just a reminder that Matt Ryan was a ROOKIE last season.

Ryan also wasn't the focus of the offense and had very limited reads. Add in HC and OC that protect him with calling runs in passing down and you have good looking season. But if you look at his rating when ATL was behind and Ryan had to step up and win the game he very rookie like. Plus Ryan most likely going to struggle this upcoming when defense coordinators have film on him and know what he can and can not do with ball.

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 04:55 PM
So the Falcons offense being better than the Broncos at putting up points is because, and lets make sure there isn't a mistake about what you're trying to say here, Ryan's team is better?

I'll give you RB. But name a position other than that where the Falcons are better on offense than the Broncos.

Who's better on the OL? Our weakest OL position is OG, and Hamilton and Kuper are both better than what 3/4ths of this league has at either OG spot, including the Falcons.

Roddy White, better than Brandon Marshall? Really?

Who they got on par with Eddie Royal? Brandon Stokley? Daniel Graham? Tony Scheffler?

Ryan did more offensively than Cutler and with a whole world less talent. As a rookie. Cutler is in his third season.

I wasn't arguing the offensive angle, though I do think the Falcons are pretty solid on that side of the ball, especially now with Tony G. My point had more to do with the D and discussions on wins. I was stating how Matt has the benfit of more wins because his D is giving up less points. By pointing out the offensive numbers, I was trying to say they were more comparable and therefore he couldn't argue that in favor of Ryan(That Ryan alone was winning the games).

ohiobronco2
05-05-2009, 04:58 PM
It's going to be real interesting to see how Jay does in Chicago and how we do this year. The question is, did Jay make our receiving options look better than what they are because he is a good QB? Or did they make Jay look good? Or is it both. We will get to see this year. The Bears really have no notable WR options.

Rock Chalk
05-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Who has based it on #'s ... Most I see in the NFL as far as coaches and players , media , and people here have based it more on his SKILL SET and film showing him doing things physically not many QBs can do . And then they follow that up by dissing him on stats from win loss record and so on.

And then he follows up what was unreal with something only the worst QBs do. What's your point? For every awesome throw he made, he had 3 horrendous throws.


And before someone whips out Jeff George's name ... All Jeff had was a good deep ball arm ... hence why Al Davis had a hard on for him . He didn't move like Jay , complete close covered passes like slants like Jay or work through a progression to the 3rd or 4th option like jay ... period.

Now go watch film of Jay in 3rd and 5 or more ... He is Manning , Brady good . I remember actually being scared on 3rd and 5 or more when Jake was here , and I loved Jake ... After Jay took over 3rd down conversions became almost a strength . Coaches and smart people know when Jay grows Up which he needs to do and will and becomes a little more coachable and less thin skinned MUCH like John in his late 20's early 30's he has a skill set and gifts you just can't teach and surrounded by a average top 15 D and a team that is responsible and just plays its game and does their jobs can win titles with Jay .

He is not Manning/Brady good. Not even close. When the pressure is on Jay plays WORSE. 3rd down conversions went up when the offensive line could provide protection for the QB. Jay would have crumbled like a two dollar whore behind the lines that Griese and Plummer played under.


Not many HOF QBs would have had better then a 8-8 record if they QBed the Broncos of last year with the injuries and play at safety .

I think a lot of QBs in the league RIGHT now could have positioned the team to win 8 or more games last year with the talent we had offensively surrounding them. You people put WAY too much stock into what Cutler did. He is an average QB that could occassionally do some awesome things. Big deal. Id rather have a great QB that cant throw a tight spiral into double coverage because he threw it to the wide open man down the seam instead.

We can win without a franchise Qb but for 10 years most of us Bished about wanting one.

We can win without Cutler now. With Cutler we wouldnt have won ****. The guy's ego is bigger than the team and he will never be a winner.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing personal Drek but study more ,cause shooting that down was as easy as making "Bob" look stupid.
Moving on .[/QUOTE]

You didnt really make any points.

Rabb
05-05-2009, 05:43 PM
And that's without counting the bonehead notta-fumble against San Diego.

I sometimes wonder if the call had been made correctly, how people would feel about him.

He really did suck ass in the red zone, I know players make mistakes and he did a lot of great things but some of the red zone mistakes for him (and the team in general to be honest) just deflated so many drives.

telluride
05-05-2009, 05:49 PM
That makes you sound uneducated and bitter . But that comparison prove lots about your football knowledge .

Football Tellu btw is a team game . You see it takes more then one guy to claim victory and when you do win it's many peoples doing not just one .


I understand all the Cutler hate ... And i'm totally not happy with how the story played out or ended ... But you guys who all of a sudden want to act like he isn't a top 10 qb are just either bull$hitting yourself to lighten the loss or delusional .

But o well ... time will tell ...

I'm aware it's a team game. I often wondered if Cutler realized that; he always seemed pretty eager to throw his teammates under a bus when things went badly.

Also, I never said Cutler wasn't a top 10 QB. He is. I just think that he's nearer the bottom of that top 10 than nearer the top.

watermock
05-05-2009, 05:50 PM
I think Jay had alot of pressure to score TD's in the red zone without a consistent running game, espeially after Hillis went down.

We couldn't stop anyone on a bet. That's why we went for 2 at home against the Chargers at home.

Rabb
05-05-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm aware it's a team game. I often wondered if Cutler realized that; he always seemed pretty eager to throw his teammates under a bus when things went badly.

Also, I never said Cutler wasn't a top 10 QB. He is. I just think that he's nearer the bottom of that top 10 than nearer the top.

I agree with you here

it is funny to look back at how he acted and then compare it to what happened recently, it is pretty telling to what kind of douche he is (my opinion)

it almost makes me sick to think, Philip Rivers and friends were right

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 05:58 PM
I think Jay had alot of pressure to score TD's in the red zone without a consistent running game, espeially after Hillis went down.

We couldn't stop anyone on a bet. That's why we went for 2 at home against the Chargers at home.

Meh Cutler had to chances to win the Bills game. Had Royal wide open deep and over threw him. Then did same thing in endzone when another WR had broken free.

Cutler hits either of those 2 plays we win. Great qbs makes those plays, it's end of yr, you need a win to clinch, the call is good, the WR is open, but Cutler blew it. He's got a long ways to go before he is manning or even a rivers.

Inkana7
05-05-2009, 06:14 PM
He was also in the bottom of the NFL in Red Zone completion percentage.

Cutler was just a bad Red Zone QB.

Inkana7
05-05-2009, 06:14 PM
I think Jay had alot of pressure to score TD's in the red zone without a consistent running game, espeially after Hillis went down.

We couldn't stop anyone on a bet. That's why we went for 2 at home against the Chargers at home.

So you're saying Cutler can't handle pressure?

Orange_Beard
05-05-2009, 06:19 PM
Thigpen was 4th. Guess this is a really telling stat.,

Rabb
05-05-2009, 06:21 PM
Thigpen was 4th. Guess this is a really telling stat.,

you do have to get to the red zone first :)

Eldorado
05-05-2009, 07:31 PM
Some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. Campbell and Pennington for example, love to check down even if it means going three and out. Campbell especially plays pretty scared. They're good at protecting the ball, but they're not like Manning who attacks down field but also doesn't make mistakes. A good balance.

I lol'd when I saw Romo and Garrard's numbers, though.

Yup. That's why I wanted redzone passing td's as well.

Bob's your Information Minister
05-05-2009, 07:55 PM
Which quarterback had a running game again?

slyinky
05-05-2009, 08:04 PM
Who has based it on #'s ... Most I see in the NFL as far as coaches and players , media , and people here have based it more on his SKILL SET and film showing him doing things physically not many QBs can do . And then they follow that up by dissing him on stats from win loss record and so on.


And before someone whips out Jeff George's name ... All Jeff had was a good deep ball arm ... hence why Al Davis had a hard on for him . He didn't move like Jay , complete close covered passes like slants like Jay or work through a progression to the 3rd or 4th option like jay ... period.

Now go watch film of Jay in 3rd and 5 or more ... He is Manning , Brady good . I remember actually being scared on 3rd and 5 or more when Jake was here , and I loved Jake ... After Jay took over 3rd down conversions became almost a strength . Coaches and smart people know when Jay grows Up which he needs to do and will and becomes a little more coachable and less thin skinned MUCH like John in his late 20's early 30's he has a skill set and gifts you just can't teach and surrounded by a average top 15 D and a team that is responsible and just plays its game and does their jobs can win titles with Jay .


Not many HOF QBs would have had better then a 8-8 record if they QBed the Broncos of last year with the injuries and play at safety .

We can win without a franchise Qb but for 10 years most of us Bished about wanting one.


Nothing personal Drek but study more ,cause shooting that down was as easy as making "Bob" look stupid.
Moving on .
Here is some study material for you.

Peyton Manning's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
35 of 55 for 438 yds 3 TD's 0 INT's and a passer rating of 106.5

Tom Brady's stats in 2007 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 40 for 439 yds 3 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 116.6

Jay Cutler's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 50 for 345 yds 1 TD 2 INT's and a passer rating of 64.2

GreatBronco16
05-05-2009, 08:05 PM
Which quarterback had a running game again?

Both. Every RB Denver put on the field last season had success running the ball. The fact that Shanny aired it out more to keep his sissy QB happy is besides the point.

GreatBronco16
05-05-2009, 08:07 PM
Here is some study material for you.

Peyton Manning's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
35 of 55 for 438 yds 3 TD's 0 INT's and a passer rating of 106.5

Tom Brady's stats in 2007 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 40 for 439 yds 3 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 116.6

Jay Cutler's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 50 for 345 yds 1 TD 2 INT's and a passer rating of 64.2

But wasn't someone saying that Cutler was golden on 3rd down conversions?

gyldenlove
05-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Both. Every RB Denver put on the field last season had success running the ball. The fact that Shanny aired it out more to keep his sissy QB happy is besides the point.

If you think the running game helped Cutler instead of Cutler helping the running game you are sadly mistaking. Never once did we face more than 7 men in the box, most teams were quite happy to drop one or two LBs back in coverage to try to stop the pass and leave the run exposed because they knew that we couldn't run the ball with any consistency.

slyinky
05-05-2009, 08:16 PM
Yup. That's why I wanted redzone passing td's as well.
Jay Cutler's stats in the red zone:
39 of 84 for 273 YDS 17 TD's 4 INT's and a passer rating of 74.1

Kyle Orton's stats in the red zone:
31 of 59 for 249 YDS 13 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 96.0

bombay
05-05-2009, 08:19 PM
It's probably not a complete accident that Orton is 21-12 as a starter. It's possible he had something to do with it.

Eldorado
05-05-2009, 08:19 PM
Jay Cutler's stats in the red zone:
39 of 84 for 273 YDS 17 TD's 4 INT's and a passer rating of 74.1

Kyle Orton's stats in the red zone:
31 of 59 for 249 YDS 13 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 96.0

nice. solid. Perhaps a qb rating in the redzone for all the qb's in the league is in order now, no?

GreatBronco16
05-05-2009, 08:22 PM
If you think the running game helped Cutler instead of Cutler helping the running game you are sadly mistaking. Never once did we face more than 7 men in the box, most teams were quite happy to drop one or two LBs back in coverage to try to stop the pass and leave the run exposed because they knew that we couldn't run the ball with any consistency.


As the season went on yes, but that was also due to the fact that Denver was put in a huge hole that the ST and defense would put us in or the turnovers that Cutler would make. But, the running game was not the problem IMHO. It just wasn't utilized properly. Shanny just didn't have the faith to keep giving the ball to every RB that took over after one would get injured. Until Hilllis. With Hillis, Shanny started to go back to a run first team. Then Hillis goes down, and Shanny puts the ball right back into Cutlers hand.

GreatBronco16
05-05-2009, 08:25 PM
It's probably not a complete accident that Orton is 21-12 as a starter. It's possible he had something to do with it.

Well, if the win/losses were flipped in Cutlers favor, the same people saying that Cutler is not the reason he has a poor win/loss record would be saying that he is the reason he has a good win/loss record.

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 08:27 PM
So you're saying Cutler can't handle pressure?

not to mention every QB feels the pressure to score in the redzone. You only get so many trips to redzone, you have to make plays there or all the yrds between the twenties mean squat.

Just how it is.

It's always been that way in Football. Between the 20's is like being able to hit log drives in golf, but the redzone is like being on the putting green, the real spot you make your dough etc.

Bob's your Information Minister
05-05-2009, 08:28 PM
Kyle Orton's third-down conversion rate was among the worst in the league last year, BTW. Cutler's was among the best.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/percentfirstdownspasson3rddown.html

bombay
05-05-2009, 08:32 PM
Well, if the win/losses were flipped in Cutlers favor, the same people saying that Cutler is not the reason he has a poor win/loss record would be saying that he is the reason he has a good win/loss record.

Whatever. I'm interested in Orton's results and how and how/why they were arrived at. Don't give a **** about the rest of that crap.

Pseudofool
05-05-2009, 08:32 PM
Kyle Orton's third-down conversion rate was among the worst in the league last year, BTW. Cutler's was among the best.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/percentfirstdownspasson3rddown.html
homer

telluride
05-05-2009, 09:29 PM
It's probably not a complete accident that Orton is 21-12 as a starter. It's possible he had something to do with it.

Rep.

BroncoMan4ever
05-05-2009, 11:32 PM
the cardinals had the worst rushing game in the league, warner did just fine in the red zone throwing 5 more TDs than cutler. was it because he had so many more attempts? he managed to not turn it over every other possession....

not trying to sound like a Cutler homer. but comparing his stats to Warner's is not right. all Warner has to do is throw it up in the area of Fitzgerald and 95% Larry is coming down with the ball.

Marshall is good, but he is not on the level of Fitzgerald....YET

also, there were a lot of WTF moments by Jay in the red zone, just saying Warner has the best receiving weapon in the league at his disposal, and might not be the best comparison.

Mile High Mojoe
05-05-2009, 11:43 PM
I think part of the reason Cutler and the O couldn't score in the redzone was Shanny's play calling. He wasn't fooling anyone with his play selection. Even when we faced the worst D's they seemed to be able to immediatley know what was called. Cutler takes part of the blame not all.

Hulamau
05-06-2009, 12:09 AM
JaMarcus Russell also only had 1 int is 15 games in the redzone... Just saying.

Russell was rarely ever in the red zone except when Chokeland played us at Invesco last year and Cutler laid one of the biggest eggs of his brief career in a really uninspired performance.

Jay's flame out against Buffalo ranks up there as another distinctly 'I AM NOT JOHN ELWAY' moment as well.

Cito Pelon
05-06-2009, 01:01 AM
I think part of the reason Cutler and the O couldn't score in the redzone was Shanny's play calling. He wasn't fooling anyone with his play selection. Even when we faced the worst D's they seemed to be able to immediatley know what was called. Cutler takes part of the blame not all.

Shanny had a habit of running the same plays from the first Q that worked, but he would run them from the opposite side or from a slightly different formation. Everybody knew they would see that.

MileHighMania
05-06-2009, 04:01 AM
Just another piece of evidence that you can find a stat to bolster any argument...

Drek
05-06-2009, 04:31 AM
I think part of the reason Cutler and the O couldn't score in the redzone was Shanny's play calling. He wasn't fooling anyone with his play selection. Even when we faced the worst D's they seemed to be able to immediatley know what was called. Cutler takes part of the blame not all.

Jeremy Bates was calling the plays last year, FYI, and he was basically calling them to cater to Cutler.

People on here love to blame our running game for all the offensive woes, but by YPC they where giving elite production (2nd in the league if I recall). Bates was too busy fellating Cutler's ego and running the same damn pass play again and again on his way to a three and out to make use of it.

Last year should have been the crowning achievement of the "our running system is better than all ya'lls, so suck it." statement that this organization had been putting together for slightly over a decade, but instead Bates got all queer for watching Cutler throw bombs 5 yards in front of Marshall and Royal, repeatedly.

Who has based it on #'s ... Most I see in the NFL as far as coaches and players , media , and people here have based it more on his SKILL SET and film showing him doing things physically not many QBs can do . And then they follow that up by dissing him on stats from win loss record and so on.Since When did a raw skill set make someone elite?

People on this forum, when all this **** first went down, tried to trumpet Cutler's big passing numbers and pro-bowl appearance as being a sign that he truly was a franchise QB, not just someone with the potential to be one. I'm not one to keep lists of people with stupid takes, so maybe you weren't one of them, but there where a whole lot more than a handful of them on this board singing that song.

Now go watch film of Jay in 3rd and 5 or more ... He is Manning , Brady good . I remember actually being scared on 3rd and 5 or more when Jake was here , and I loved Jake ... After Jay took over 3rd down conversions became almost a strength .
There is nothing Jay does even 3/4ths as well as Manning and Brady at this point. I won't go into this too far since the numbers that dispel this statement have already been provided by someone else.

Coaches and smart people know when Jay grows Up which he needs to do and will and becomes a little more coachable and less thin skinned MUCH like John in his late 20's early 30's he has a skill set and gifts you just can't teach and surrounded by a average top 15 D and a team that is responsible and just plays its game and does their jobs can win titles with Jay .
Sure, if Jay Cutler would 1. grow up 2. show some mental toughness and 3. refine his game appropriately as a result of all that, he could be an elite QB.

But I don't see why you should assume that'd happen. Josh McDaniels is the best young QB groomer in the NFL today, and Jay Cutler just hissy fitted his way out of getting to work with him. McDaniels was Cutler's ticket to the next level and he pissed it away. Now he gets to see if Ron Turner, a guy who didn't want Cutler to play for him in college, and Lovie Smith are QB gurus capable of grooming a player.

As for the John Elway comparison, Elway at Cutler's age had already produced two playoff births and the one season he didn't the team went 11-5. He started from day one, he wasn't handed a 7-4 team as a rookie that proceeded to choke away a playoff birth in a final home game against the 49ers. And by year four he got his team to the Super Bowl. John Elway is the complete polar opposite of Cutler because he didn't have **** for a supporting offensive cast, his stats looked like ****, but all he did was win. Cutler on the other hand has a supporting cast full of pro-bowl and ROY candidates and all he's got to show for it is big passing numbers and a career losing record.


Not many HOF QBs would have had better then a 8-8 record if they QBed the Broncos of last year with the injuries and play at safety .

Peyton Manning played most of his early career, with multiple playoff births, opposite a defense just as porous as ours was last year. Drew Brees has had to work with a horrible defense and a much stronger division since going to New Orleans, he at least got them to the playoffs once. The Bears where the 23rd best defense (i.e. not very good) last year, Kyle Orton still led them to a better record than us.

If John Elway was the QB of the Denver Broncos the last three years we make the playoffs in 2006 and 2008. We don't choke away divisional leads down the final handful of games in the season. Thats saying we got rookie Elway in '06, not the final product Elway busted his ass to become. Choking late season divisional and wild card leads was just not Elway's MO.

TDmvp
05-06-2009, 04:39 AM
Jeremy Bates was calling the plays last year, FYI, and he was basically calling them to cater to Cutler.

People on here love to blame our running game for all the offensive woes, but by YPC they where giving elite production (2nd in the league if I recall). Bates was too busy fellating Cutler's ego and running the same damn pass play again and again on his way to a three and out to make use of it.

Last year should have been the crowning achievement of the "our running system is better than all ya'lls, so suck it." statement that this organization had been putting together for slightly over a decade, but instead Bates got all queer for watching Cutler throw bombs 5 yards in front of Marshall and Royal, repeatedly.

Since When did a raw skill set make someone elite?

People on this forum, when all this **** first went down, tried to trumpet Cutler's big passing numbers and pro-bowl appearance as being a sign that he truly was a franchise QB, not just someone with the potential to be one. I'm not one to keep lists of people with stupid takes, so maybe you weren't one of them, but there where a whole lot more than a handful of them on this board singing that song.


There is nothing Jay does even 3/4ths as well as Manning and Brady at this point. I won't go into this too far since the numbers that dispel this statement have already been provided by someone else.


Sure, if Jay Cutler would 1. grow up 2. show some mental toughness and 3. refine his game appropriately as a result of all that, he could be an elite QB.

But I don't see why you should assume that'd happen. Josh McDaniels is the best young QB groomer in the NFL today, and Jay Cutler just hissy fitted his way out of getting to work with him. McDaniels was Cutler's ticket to the next level and he pissed it away. Now he gets to see if Ron Turner, a guy who didn't want Cutler to play for him in college, and Lovie Smith are QB gurus capable of grooming a player.

As for the John Elway comparison, Elway at Cutler's age had already produced two playoff births and the one season he didn't the team went 11-5. He started from day one, he wasn't handed a 7-4 team as a rookie that proceeded to choke away a playoff birth in a final home game against the 49ers. And by year four he got his team to the Super Bowl. John Elway is the complete polar opposite of Cutler because he didn't have **** for a supporting offensive cast, his stats looked like ****, but all he did was win. Cutler on the other hand has a supporting cast full of pro-bowl and ROY candidates and all he's got to show for it is big passing numbers and a career losing record.




Peyton Manning played most of his early career, with multiple playoff births, opposite a defense just as porous as ours was last year. Drew Brees has had to work with a horrible defense and a much stronger division since going to New Orleans, he at least got them to the playoffs once. The Bears where the 23rd best defense (i.e. not very good) last year, Kyle Orton still led them to a better record than us.

If John Elway was the QB of the Denver Broncos the last three years we make the playoffs in 2006 and 2008. We don't choke away divisional leads down the final handful of games in the season. Thats saying we got rookie Elway in '06, not the final product Elway busted his ass to become. Choking late season divisional and wild card leads was just not Elway's MO.

A lot I agree with ... Some I don't ...
But for the record Cutler can't hold Elway's jock at this point ...
But that is who every Bronc Qb is compared to . silly or not .

Edit:
One this Orton has going for him he don't ever have to worry about being compared to Elway :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

Odysseus
05-06-2009, 05:01 AM
Just another piece of evidence that you can find a stat to bolster any argument...

I believe it was called dry humping with statistics in college but I digress. There is a small red book called "How to lie with statistics" that should be a must read for every sports fan.

If you want a copy go to the website and download it. Let the flames begin!

http://www.ebook3000.com/How-to-Lie-With-Statistics_21411.html

TonyR
05-06-2009, 06:01 AM
not trying to sound like a Cutler homer. but comparing his stats to Warner's is not right. all Warner has to do is throw it up in the area of Fitzgerald and 95% Larry is coming down with the ball.
...just saying Warner has the best receiving weapon in the league at his disposal, and might not be the best comparison.

I get what you're saying but I think it's a fair comparison. Arizona had the worst rushing attack in the league (73.6 ypg, 3.5 ypc compared to Denver's 116.4 and 4.8), a below average defense (19th in yards and 28th in points), and gave up more sacks (28 to 12). Almost any excuse Cutler apologists use can also be applied to Warner and yet he doesn't need the excuses. He went out and performed, made plays, and won football games. Jay Cutler has a lot of talent but unless and until he grows up and starts playing more consistently he's always going to be a loser.

TonyR
05-06-2009, 06:15 AM
People on this forum, when all this **** first went down, tried to trumpet Cutler's big passing numbers and pro-bowl appearance as being a sign that he truly was a franchise QB, not just someone with the potential to be one. I'm not one to keep lists of people with stupid takes, so maybe you weren't one of them, but there where a whole lot more than a handful of them on this board singing that song.


Good post. At the end of the day it's not about passing stats and Pro Bowls. It's about making plays and winning football games, something Jay Cutler hasn't yet figured out how to do on a consistent basis. Maybe some day he'll get there but I have serious doubts that he'll ever be the all world QB some here think he already is.

Irish Stout
05-06-2009, 06:32 AM
not trying to sound like a Cutler homer. but comparing his stats to Warner's is not right. all Warner has to do is throw it up in the area of Fitzgerald and 95% Larry is coming down with the ball.

Marshall is good, but he is not on the level of Fitzgerald....YET

also, there were a lot of WTF moments by Jay in the red zone, just saying Warner has the best receiving weapon in the league at his disposal, and might not be the best comparison.

Brandon Marshall wasn't even in the vicinity of Larry Fitz good. Did you watch BM last year? Drop city. Of course I love how after the season he admits to not having any feeling in his hand since it went through the tv.

TonyR
05-06-2009, 06:36 AM
Brandon Marshall wasn't even in the vicinity of Larry Fitz good. Did you watch BM last year?

That's pretty much what he said. Here's his exact quote:

Marshall is good, but he is not on the level of Fitzgerald....YET

oubronco
05-06-2009, 06:38 AM
A lot I agree with ... Some I don't ...
But for the record Cutler can't hold Elway's jock at this point ...
But that is who every Bronc Qb is compared to . silly or not .

Edit:
One this Orton has going for him he don't ever have to worry about being compared to Elway :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

He could be compared to Elways jock though

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 07:07 AM
Here is some study material for you.

Peyton Manning's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
35 of 55 for 438 yds 3 TD's 0 INT's and a passer rating of 106.5

Tom Brady's stats in 2007 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 40 for 439 yds 3 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 116.6

Jay Cutler's stats in 2008 when faced with 3rd and long:
26 of 50 for 345 yds 1 TD 2 INT's and a passer rating of 64.2

Not much to study.

One thing is a given. I don't like any of the QB's listed above.;D

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 07:08 AM
Jay Cutler's stats in the red zone:
39 of 84 for 273 YDS 17 TD's 4 INT's and a passer rating of 74.1

Kyle Orton's stats in the red zone:
31 of 59 for 249 YDS 13 TD's 1 INT and a passer rating of 96.0


This would have sealed the case in the previously posted stat.

Blue??? Comments about your boy?

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 07:10 AM
I believe it was called dry humping with statistics in college but I digress. There is a small red book called "How to lie with statistics" that should be a must read for every sports fan.

If you want a copy go to the website and download it. Let the flames begin!

http://www.ebook3000.com/How-to-Lie-With-Statistics_21411.html



Well, why don't you "dry hump" a stat which makes the "golden boy" not look like "fools gold".

kamakazi_kal
05-06-2009, 07:24 AM
Good post. At the end of the day it's not about passing stats and Pro Bowls. It's about making plays and winning football games, something Jay Cutler hasn't yet figured out how to do on a consistent basis. Maybe some day he'll get there but I have serious doubts that he'll ever be the all world QB some here think he already is.

I think you need to stop and consider that Cutler was still just in his "second" full year as a starter. The guy is still learning. Even Payton Manning didn't start winning until his I think 3rd season.

Now I'm not saying he's Payton or ever will but you can't deny he has the phyical tools to do it. I think the best we can hope for from Orton is "manager" not "changer"

Orton is a stop gap, maybe he becomes servicable under McD. Can you really say you think he's gonna be "special" with a straight face.

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 07:29 AM
I think you need to stop and consider that Cutler was still just in his "second" full year as a starter. The guy is still learning. Even Payton Manning didn't start winning until his I think 3rd season.

Now I'm not saying he's Payton or ever will but you can't deny he has the phyical tools to do it. I think the best we can hope for from Orton is "manager" not "changer"

Orton is a stop gap, maybe he becomes servicable under McD. Can you really say you think he's gonna be "special" with a straight face.

We don't need "special", we need smart and consistent.

Drek
05-06-2009, 08:10 AM
I think you need to stop and consider that Cutler was still just in his "second" full year as a starter. The guy is still learning. Even Payton Manning didn't start winning until his I think 3rd season.

Now I'm not saying he's Payton or ever will but you can't deny he has the phyical tools to do it. I think the best we can hope for from Orton is "manager" not "changer"

Orton is a stop gap, maybe he becomes servicable under McD. Can you really say you think he's gonna be "special" with a straight face.

I love the "only his second full year as a starter!" excuse.

Carson Palmer got to sit a year, his third season he posted a 101.1 QB rating. Dante Culpepper sat his first year, posted a 98.0 QB rating his second season. Chad Pennington sat two whole seaons, and immediately posted a 104.2 QB rating and produced a playoff birth in his third year, first as a starter. Phillip Rivers didn't get to start until his 3rd year, he immediately posted a 92.0 QB rating that season. Tom Brady sat his first year, started 14 in his second while posting an 86.5 QB rating and winning a title with a team most thought would finish last in their division.

There are a TON of success stories in the NFL of QBs who got sheltered from the rookie beatings guys like Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb took year one. You could make an argument that its the better method for developing a QB. The fact that Cutler didn't start every game from day one isn't some excuse for the massive holes he still has in his game, especially when those holes are mostly about ball control. Most guys learn that **** in college.

We have a lot of top tier players on this offense already. Marshall and Royal obviously. A better part of the OL as well. We very possibly just added a top tier playmaking RB and our FB/RB hybrid looks to be something of a gamebreaker himself. Add a better supporting cast of TEs and 3rd and 4th WRs than most teams can hope for and you see a pretty damn talented group. All they need is a game manager to facilitate THEM making plays, hence Orton being a surprisingly good fit here.

As for "special", Jay Cutler is closer to the "short bus" kind than the "Peyton Manning" kind at this point in his career, since he just ran away from getting to work with quite possibly the best young offensive mind in the game to instead land with a run first, run last team who's OC didn't want Cutler to even play QB for him in college.

kamakazi_kal
05-06-2009, 08:29 AM
I love the "only his second full year as a starter!" excuse.

.

It's not really an excuse, it's kind of a fact. You can spout all the stats you want. I don't really care. He's not on our team anymore. I just think it's a grass is always greener thing.

Do you really think Orton is the awnser? or Simms?

A simple awnser will do I don't need to see every stat you can drag out he no longer plays for the Bears.

Everyone thinks he's so great ..... I just want to understand why.

Why give up 2 firsts and Orton if he has so much potential?

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 08:50 AM
Why give up 2 firsts and Orton if he has so much potential?

Good question. Why give up SO MUCH for a traitor?

kamakazi_kal
05-06-2009, 09:03 AM
Good question. Why give up SO MUCH for a traitor?

ha ha dude, mellow out. You act like he personally injured you.

reeeelaaaax.

TailgateNut
05-06-2009, 09:48 AM
ha ha dude, mellow out. You act like he personally injured you.

reeeelaaaax.


He didn't injure me. I'm glad he's gone. I was one of a few who didn't think he was the "next best thing to sliced bread".

I had many "arguments" with my "neighbor" in the stadium when he was calling for Cutler to be put in the game in lieu of the "snake". At least Plummer had a football player attitude.

Drek
05-06-2009, 09:49 AM
It's not really an excuse, it's kind of a fact. You can spout all the stats you want. I don't really care. He's not on our team anymore. I just think it's a grass is always greener thing.

Do you really think Orton is the awnser? or Simms?

A simple awnser will do I don't need to see every stat you can drag out he no longer plays for the Bears.

Everyone thinks he's so great ..... I just want to understand why.

Why give up 2 firsts and Orton if he has so much potential?
Orton can be the answer, it just depends on the question.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what we ran last year and win games? I'm pretty sure the answer there is no.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what New England and New Orleans have both employed over the last few years and win games? I'm pretty sure he can.

Doesn't mean Orton is going to be a superstar in our offense or that we're a better team with Orton than Cutler. I think Cutler is a better player in any system than Orton would be. But the talent gap is minimized given the system we're changing to.

To be completely honest, I'm expecting us to draft Tim Tebow in the middle of the second round next year, after both Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy go in the top 10. Tebow is a perfect fit for what McDaniels wants out of his QBs and brings an additional dimension with his outstanding athleticism. But even if we don't, we can win games with Orton or Simms behind center because they fit the system and are willing to play within it.

Odysseus
05-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Well, why don't you "dry hump" a stat which makes the "golden boy" not look like "fools gold".

I am not you and personally I am thankful.

Odysseus
05-06-2009, 10:00 AM
We don't need "special", we need smart and consistent.

A smart coach who is consistent is where I would start. I don't know what to make of our collection of guys or the guy running things. I don't see team thing right now but it's still too early get ass chapped.

kamakazi_kal
05-06-2009, 10:01 AM
Orton can be the answer, it just depends on the question.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what we ran last year and win games? I'm pretty sure the answer there is no.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what New England and New Orleans have both employed over the last few years and win games? I'm pretty sure he can.

Doesn't mean Orton is going to be a superstar in our offense or that we're a better team with Orton than Cutler. I think Cutler is a better player in any system than Orton would be. But the talent gap is minimized given the system we're changing to.

To be completely honest, I'm expecting us to draft Tim Tebow in the middle of the second round next year, after both Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy go in the top 10. Tebow is a perfect fit for what McDaniels wants out of his QBs and brings an additional dimension with his outstanding athleticism. But even if we don't, we can win games with Orton or Simms behind center because they fit the system and are willing to play within it.

Ok, thanks. Mindful response ..... few more months till we find out if ur right I guess.

vancejohnson82
05-06-2009, 10:05 AM
A smart coach who is consistent is where I would start. I don't know what to make of our collection of guys or the guy running things. I don't see team thing right now but it's still too early get ass chapped.

I think McDaniels has been very consistent...its his team and its being run his way....being consistent isnt even close to being a problem...as far as smart, Im sure somewhere along the line somebody must have thought he was smart to hire him

TonyR
05-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Even Payton Manning didn't start winning until his I think 3rd season.


3-13 his first year, 13-3 his second year.

Mile High Mojoe
05-06-2009, 11:18 AM
Jeremy Bates was calling the plays last year, FYI, and he was basically calling them to cater to Cutler.

People on here love to blame our running game for all the offensive woes, but by YPC they where giving elite production (2nd in the league if I recall). Bates was too busy fellating Cutler's ego and running the same damn pass play again and again on his way to a three and out to make use of it.

Last year should have been the crowning achievement of the "our running system is better than all ya'lls, so suck it." statement that this organization had been putting together for slightly over a decade, but instead Bates got all queer for watching Cutler throw bombs 5 yards in front of Marshall and Royal, repeatedly.

Correct, it was Bates calling the plays but it's was Shanahanís scheme and it was he, not Bates, behind the overall game plan, red zone offensive or otherwise.

Funny how people view the success or failure of the red zone O based on just Cutler alone. Yea, we did run the ball at times pretty well but once it got inside the 20 it fell apart many times because of the wrong play selection. Shanahan couldnít seem to stop himself from getting cute instead of keeping it simple.

To many times they tried running plays on first and goal with RBís that couldnít run through a paper bag. Pittman and Hillis before they got hurt were the only guys who could run between the tackles consistency. Once Hillis was gone they didnít have a tough bruising guy to pound it in on short yardage situations taking away the running option.

I think Shanahanís game planning genius begin slipping way back when Portis was a Bronco. He seemed hell bent on using 300 different plays in a game when all that was needed was a handoff to Portis. Portis was the most gifted player on the field and the ball should have been in his hands a lot more via the run or pass. He did put up some great stats but IMO had he stayed in Denver the stats he could have racked up would have made him a lock for the Hall of Fame he was that talented. Instead Shanahan expected Griese and Plummer again and and again to execute the same style of passing game as if Elway were still behind center.

I donít how many games Iíve cussed and scratched my head over the last 10 years where Iíd try to understand Shannyís Houdini play calling. We had talented RBís like Portis and Anderson who were breaking 7 to 8 yard runs on every snap why throw the ball? I wish I had better memory to recount just how many games were lost because he out coached himself again and again.

Last year Cutler moved the offense well through the air but as soon as we got near the red zone especially inside the 5 it was run, run and run with guys not capable of getting it in. Then kick a FG. Cutler would have been a much more effective red zone QB had better plays been called.

IMO this is just one of the many reasons Shannnyís got fired, when you start to peel back the layers of the onion one at a time this part of the failure canít be understated.

azbroncfan
05-06-2009, 11:19 AM
im failing to see the need for pass attempts when it comes to passer rating, and how bad cutlers was when it came to redzone? yes warner is an 11 year vet but people claim cutler is elite talent, he should be as good as warner. that doesnt make up for the fact that they had similar passing yardage and somewhat similar attempts, why did cutler throw so many more picks and not as many TDs as warner?

Exactly especially with a patchwork OL and no running game to speak of in AZ. THey have better WR but Jay had Scheffler and AZ had no TE really either.

Bronco Yoda
05-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Jeremy Bates was calling the plays last year, FYI, and he was basically calling them to cater to Cutler.

People on here love to blame our running game for all the offensive woes, but by YPC they where giving elite production (2nd in the league if I recall). Bates was too busy fellating Cutler's ego and running the same damn pass play again and again on his way to a three and out to make use of it.

Last year should have been the crowning achievement of the "our running system is better than all ya'lls, so suck it." statement that this organization had been putting together for slightly over a decade, but instead Bates got all queer for watching Cutler throw bombs 5 yards in front of Marshall and Royal, repeatedly.

Since When did a raw skill set make someone elite?

:thumbs: rep
People on this forum, when all this **** first went down, tried to trumpet Cutler's big passing numbers and pro-bowl appearance as being a sign that he truly was a franchise QB, not just someone with the potential to be one. I'm not one to keep lists of people with stupid takes, so maybe you weren't one of them, but there where a whole lot more than a handful of them on this board singing that song.


There is nothing Jay does even 3/4ths as well as Manning and Brady at this point. I won't go into this too far since the numbers that dispel this statement have already been provided by someone else.


Sure, if Jay Cutler would 1. grow up 2. show some mental toughness and 3. refine his game appropriately as a result of all that, he could be an elite QB.

But I don't see why you should assume that'd happen. Josh McDaniels is the best young QB groomer in the NFL today, and Jay Cutler just hissy fitted his way out of getting to work with him. McDaniels was Cutler's ticket to the next level and he pissed it away. Now he gets to see if Ron Turner, a guy who didn't want Cutler to play for him in college, and Lovie Smith are QB gurus capable of grooming a player.

As for the John Elway comparison, Elway at Cutler's age had already produced two playoff births and the one season he didn't the team went 11-5. He started from day one, he wasn't handed a 7-4 team as a rookie that proceeded to choke away a playoff birth in a final home game against the 49ers. And by year four he got his team to the Super Bowl. John Elway is the complete polar opposite of Cutler because he didn't have **** for a supporting offensive cast, his stats looked like ****, but all he did was win. Cutler on the other hand has a supporting cast full of pro-bowl and ROY candidates and all he's got to show for it is big passing numbers and a career losing record.




Peyton Manning played most of his early career, with multiple playoff births, opposite a defense just as porous as ours was last year. Drew Brees has had to work with a horrible defense and a much stronger division since going to New Orleans, he at least got them to the playoffs once. The Bears where the 23rd best defense (i.e. not very good) last year, Kyle Orton still led them to a better record than us.

If John Elway was the QB of the Denver Broncos the last three years we make the playoffs in 2006 and 2008. We don't choke away divisional leads down the final handful of games in the season. Thats saying we got rookie Elway in '06, not the final product Elway busted his ass to become. Choking late season divisional and wild card leads was just not Elway's MO.

:thumbs: rep

rastaman
05-06-2009, 04:16 PM
Funny, the entire argument for Cutler being more than a middle of the road QB is based on numbers. Numbers he compiled with elite performers all around him.

Your points might have held water had Cutler had a consistent running attack! Once inside the red zone opposing teams knew Cutler was going to pass b/c of all the injuries to our RB's.

Lets see how consistent Cutler is in red zone with a RB that gains 1,400 1,600 yards!!: your welcome:

telluride
05-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Lets see how consistent Cutler is in red zone with a RB that gains 1,400 1,600 yards!!: your welcome:

He will continue to consistently turn the ball over in the red zone.

(You're welcome!)

fdf
05-06-2009, 04:26 PM
I think Shanahanís game planning genius begin slipping way back when Portis was a Bronco.

I think it began slipping when Gary Kubiak left the organization.

Inkana7
05-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Peyton Manning didn't have a running game this year and he won the MVP.

broncofan7
05-06-2009, 04:27 PM
I CANNOT wait until Training camp! To say that we are entering a new era in Denver would be an understatement..let the best QB win out (Simms IMHO), let Knowshon get acclimated to the NFL, our defense to not trip over their own feet even in the pre-season, let's get it on!

As big of a fan of Jay's as I was when he was on the field here, I am rooting for nothing but bad things for him this year--we need that high #1 to get Bradford!

broncofan7
05-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Peyton Manning didn't have a running game this year and he won the MVP.

To be fair--look at the history of the Colt's scoring defenses in the "Manning era'--the few years he was faced with playing with such a poor scoring D as Cutler had to in his last 2 years, Manning had a losing record.

But honestly, Manning has been able to control games with his precision passing and management of his team's offensive 'flow'--Cutler is not in that league and hopefully, for at least NEXT SEASON, he trips all over himself.

rastaman
05-06-2009, 04:35 PM
Orton can be the answer, it just depends on the question.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what we ran last year and win games? I'm pretty sure the answer there is no.

Can Kyle Orton be the QB for an offense like what New England and New Orleans have both employed over the last few years and win games? I'm pretty sure he can.

Doesn't mean Orton is going to be a superstar in our offense or that we're a better team with Orton than Cutler. I think Cutler is a better player in any system than Orton would be. But the talent gap is minimized given the system we're changing to.

To be completely honest, I'm expecting us to draft Tim Tebow in the middle of the second round next year, after both Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy go in the top 10. Tebow is a perfect fit for what McDaniels wants out of his QBs and brings an additional dimension with his outstanding athleticism. But even if we don't, we can win games with Orton or Simms behind center because they fit the system and are willing to play within it.

Derek Kyle Orton = Steve DeBerg....plan and simple. Nothing to get excited about. Orton had his chance to prove he was the Bears QB of the future and he failed to prove his case. McDaniels is already planning on replacing Orton as soon as possible. Orton will prove to a Nomadic-Journeyman QB!!

I don't understand all the excitement over Orton! Hell the Orton apologist haven't even gone out and Kyle Orton's new Jersey.....let alone allow their children to buy the Jersey of Kyle Orton. Orton will have a nomadic sub par caeer in the NFL. Ten years fron now Orton will be in the league.....but playing for his 4th or 6th team.

rastaman
05-06-2009, 04:38 PM
He will continue to consistently turn the ball over in the red zone.

(You're welcome!)

So how long have you had Nostradamus DNA circulating in your brain??? LOL

rastaman
05-06-2009, 04:43 PM
Good post. At the end of the day it's not about passing stats and Pro Bowls. It's about making plays and winning football games, something Jay Cutler hasn't yet figured out how to do on a consistent basis. Maybe some day he'll get there but I have serious doubts that he'll ever be the all world QB some here think he already is.

Oh you're such a kill joy!! What's wrong with a young QB in his 20's putting up some decent Pro Bowl stats b/c you have the talent to it! Not every QB has the talent to throw for over 4K yds......just ask "Stop Gap" Orton!!! :~ohyah!:

Northman
05-06-2009, 04:46 PM
Oh you're such a kill joy!! What's wrong with a young QB in his 20's putting up some decent Pro Bowl stats b/c you have the talent to it! Not every QB has the talent to throw for over 4K yds......just ask "Stop Gap" Orton!!! :~ohyah!:

Your having a hard time letting go eh? LOL

Rabb
05-06-2009, 04:49 PM
Oh you're such a kill joy!! What's wrong with a young QB in his 20's putting up some decent Pro Bowl stats b/c you have the talent to it! Not every QB has the talent to throw for over 4K yds......just ask "Stop Gap" Orton!!! :~ohyah!:

yes how proud one must be to be on an 8-8 team that blew a huge divisional lead and missed the playoffs again

and don't tell me it was all defense either, because that is horse ****

The fact is, Cutler got the east coast (Pro Bowl) attention during weeks 1-3 and then held on after that because he put up big numbers

Ask Melo' how awesome it is to get an individual nod versus actually putting the team first...funny what happened this year when he bought in isn't it? Not to mention Melo' is possibly a bigger baby than Cutler and even HE didn't flip out when his name was floating around being traded...instead he stepped his game up and his work ethic and is playing like a team guy.

rastaman
05-06-2009, 04:56 PM
Your having a hard time letting go eh? LOL

Isn't it alittle too early to "Let Go!"......this ain't even week 8 of the NFL season, be patient we got time. I have yet to hear from all the McD apologist for his coaching performance btwn week 1 and week 8. We fans have got nothing but time....b/c McD and Bowlen have the Broncos on a 3-5 year re-building program. Relax Why Don'tcha. :~ohyah!:

rastaman
05-06-2009, 05:04 PM
yes how proud one must be to be on an 8-8 team that blew a huge divisional lead and missed the playoffs again

and don't tell me it was all defense either, because that is horse ****

The fact is, Cutler got the east coast (Pro Bowl) attention during weeks 1-3 and then held on after that because he put up big numbers

Ask Melo' how awesome it is to get an individual nod versus actually putting the team first...funny what happened this year when he bought in isn't it? Not to mention Melo' is possibly a bigger baby than Cutler and even HE didn't flip out when his name was floating around being traded...instead he stepped his game up and his work ethic and is playing like a team guy.

You may not agree.....but I've always believed had Shanny and Cutler not all 7 Denver RB's suffering season ending injuries the Broncos win their Divison and mak a playoff run. Hillis going down for the season was the straw that broke the camels back.

Name one wild card team, division winner or SB team that suffered season ending injuries to every single RB that made their rosters!!!

A healthy stable of RB's and Denver wins 2-4 additional games.

Rabb
05-06-2009, 05:38 PM
You may not agree.....but I've always believed had Shanny and Cutler not all 7 Denver RB's suffering season ending injuries the Broncos win their Divison and mak a playoff run. Hillis going down for the season was the straw that broke the camels back.

Name one wild card team, division winner or SB team that suffered season ending injuries to every single RB that made their rosters!!!

A healthy stable of RB's and Denver wins 2-4 additional games.

I cannot completely disagree but Denver was 12th in the league in rushing last year, which is 4 spots higher than we were in scoring. We were also tied for second on yards per carry and tied for 14th in rushing touchdowns. To put that in comparison, the Super Bowl Champion Steelers were 23rd in rushing and 29th in yards per carry. They only had one more rushing score than us and about 23 less attempts.

In other words, blaming our woes on the running game is just not accurate. Game plan and game management maybe, but statistically we rushed better than the Super Bowl champs even with injuries. Yes, their defense was superior, I get that and realize it is not exactly apples and apples but you are comparing a rushing game to playoff success which is sort of an unfair excuse for us. We could have had Walter Payton behind our line last year and I am still not sure we could outscore the other teams.

A real telling stat in comparison is our red zone offensive turnover percentage, ours was around 10% and the Steelers was 1%

not giving the ball away = wins and Cutler had a lot to do with that (yes along with some odd offensive calls) including what was almost a huge one in week 2 that would have had us at 7-9 as well as a couple of other drive killers

Northman
05-06-2009, 05:55 PM
Isn't it alittle too early to "Let Go!"......this ain't even week 8 of the NFL season, be patient we got time. I have yet to hear from all the McD apologist for his coaching performance btwn week 1 and week 8. We fans have got nothing but time....b/c McD and Bowlen have the Broncos on a 3-5 year re-building program. Relax Why Don'tcha. :~ohyah!:


Im completely relaxed. Cant wait for the season to start.

TailgateNut
05-07-2009, 07:07 AM
I think it began slipping when Gary Kubiak left the organization.


I think we should give old man Gibb credit where credit is due, moreso than Kubiak.

oubronco
05-07-2009, 07:16 AM
yes how proud one must be to be on an 8-8 team that blew a huge divisional lead and missed the playoffs again.

and you blame this on Cutler? I'm sure the fact the Defense couldn't stop a fat man from rolling up hill had anything to do with it huh

oubronco
05-07-2009, 07:18 AM
I cannot completely disagree but Denver was 12th in the league in rushing last year, which is 4 spots higher than we were in scoring. We were also tied for second on yards per carry and tied for 14th in rushing touchdowns. To put that in comparison, the Super Bowl Champion Steelers were 23rd in rushing and 29th in yards per carry. They only had one more rushing score than us and about 23 less attempts.

In other words, blaming our woes on the running game is just not accurate. Game plan and game management maybe, but statistically we rushed better than the Super Bowl champs even with injuries. Yes, their defense was superior, I get that and realize it is not exactly apples and apples but you are comparing a rushing game to playoff success which is sort of an unfair excuse for us. We could have had Walter Payton behind our line last year and I am still not sure we could outscore the other teams.

A real telling stat in comparison is our red zone offensive turnover percentage, ours was around 10% and the Steelers was 1%

not giving the ball away = wins and Cutler had a lot to do with that (yes along with some odd offensive calls) including what was almost a huge one in week 2 that would have had us at 7-9 as well as a couple of other drive killers

Defense my man it's called Defense

Pittsburgh had one Denver did not

kamakazi_kal
05-07-2009, 07:25 AM
and you blame this on Cutler? I'm sure the fact the Defense couldn't stop a fat man from rolling up hill had anything to do with it huh

hell yeah it's his fault ...... defense did their part, runningbacks did their part, coaches did their part, WR ran their routes ....... get it through your head man, cutler sucks it's all his fault.

You and I know it's all on the QB to win games by himself so now he's gone were in better shape for it. Don't worry though when our savior Orton starts checking down it's gonna be magic time.

Moreno is gonna get a whole lotta work this year ..... I hope. All the "Orton in our system will be special" stuff has yet to sink in with me.

I'll be unhappy till the wins start comin. Just plain not impressed yet. Call me bandwagon or not ... don't care. Mcd has allot to prove with the moves he's made.

oubronco
05-07-2009, 07:26 AM
hell yeah it's his fault ...... defense did their part, runningbacks did their part, coaches did their part, WR ran their routes ....... get it through your head man, cutler sucks it's all his fault.

You and I know it's all on the QB to win games by himself so now he's gone were in better shape for it. Don't worry though when our savior Orton starts checking down it's gonna be magic time.

Moreno is gonna get a whole lotta work this year ..... I hope. All the "Orton in our system will be special" stuff has yet to sink in with me.

I'll be unhappy till the wins start comin.

You and me both 8')

Lev Vyvanse
05-07-2009, 07:27 AM
You may not agree.....but I've always believed had Shanny and Cutler not all 7 Denver RB's suffering season ending injuries the Broncos win their Divison and mak a playoff run. Hillis going down for the season was the straw that broke the camels back.

Name one wild card team, division winner or SB team that suffered season ending injuries to every single RB that made their rosters!!!

A healthy stable of RB's and Denver wins 2-4 additional games.

This is the yards per carry after Hillis went down.
Carolina 5.3
Buffalo 6.7
San Diego 9.0
I think it might have been ****y play calling.

Rabb
05-07-2009, 08:49 AM
and you blame this on Cutler? I'm sure the fact the Defense couldn't stop a fat man from rolling up hill had anything to do with it huh

you obviously did not read what I replied to, nice work

What's wrong with a young QB in his 20's putting up some decent Pro Bowl stats b/c you have the talent to it! Not every QB has the talent to throw for over 4K yds

my reply was to this, if someone can be proud of putting up big pro bowl numbers after leading an 8-8 team into the tank...then that is stupid

Rabb
05-07-2009, 08:53 AM
Defense my man it's called Defense

Pittsburgh had one Denver did not

so their defense made their red zone scoring better?

I am referring to the running game which he stated was a large cause for Denver's bad record, the stats I posted showed that I doubt that to be the case

it is useless trying to prove anything to the Cutler crowd, you clearly spin it to fit what you want to believe...of course our defense was the worst part of the team, I can see that as clearly as you can but to blame the running game is outright incorrect

vancejohnson82
05-07-2009, 08:57 AM
so their defense made their red zone scoring better?

I am referring to the running game which he stated was a large cause for Denver's bad record, the stats I posted showed that I doubt that to be the case

it is useless trying to prove anything to the Cutler crowd, you clearly spin it to fit what you want to believe...of course our defense was the worst part of the team, I can see that as clearly as you can but to blame the running game is outright incorrect

there were games where the offense hurt the defense and vice versa....when you have a bad defense it really hurts to have a quick 3 incomplete pass possession....which i feel like we had a lot of...not all Cutlers fault, some of it was circumstanstial and bad play calling....but just writing off the offenses shortcomings as the defenses fault is kind of a broad brush to paint with

Rabb
05-07-2009, 09:07 AM
there were games where the offense hurt the defense and vice versa....when you have a bad defense it really hurts to have a quick 3 incomplete pass possession....which i feel like we had a lot of...not all Cutlers fault, some of it was circumstanstial and bad play calling....but just writing off the offenses shortcomings as the defenses fault is kind of a broad brush to paint with

I agree, I should just stop arguing...we can all agree on one thing, last year sucked

bowtown
05-07-2009, 09:17 AM
I think we should give old man Gibb credit where credit is due, moreso than Kubiak.

Is that why Atlanta and Houston had such genius game plans and so much success after Gibbs and Kubiak moved on? Give me a break. All credit should go to Shanahan. Game plans slipped after he let up on control of the play calls.

vancejohnson82
05-07-2009, 09:23 AM
I agree, I should just stop arguing...we can all agree on one thing, last year sucked

exactly...im done trying to argue against the pessimism on the board...its just a different way people approach the season I guess, and they have every right to do so

its kind of like going into a contest with the mindest that you will lose, that way there is no disappointment when it happens...when you set high expectiations you set yourself up for disappointment....thats how some people like to see it

also, i feel like a lot of people were sold on the fact that Cutler was the future...i was, up until the loss to the Raiders...in my opinion thats a game a franchise QB doesnt lose and a game that a team with the "Patriots" mentality doesnt lose....we didnt have that killer instinct for the last 4 years so changes had to be made starting at the top

Punisher
05-07-2009, 09:37 AM
Awesome, Orton is right on board with Tyler Thigpen and JaMarcus Russell! No need to worry about QB this year!

Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh man Funny stuff

BroncoBuff
05-07-2009, 10:29 AM
Derek Kyle Orton = Steve DeBerg....plan and simple. Nothing to get excited about. Orton had his chance to prove he was the Bears QB of the future and he failed to prove his case. McDaniels is already planning on replacing Orton as soon as possible. Orton will prove to a Nomadic-Journeyman QB!!

I don't understand all the excitement over Orton! Hell the Orton apologist haven't even gone out and Kyle Orton's new Jersey.....let alone allow their children to buy the Jersey of Kyle Orton. Orton will have a nomadic sub par caeer in the NFL. Ten years fron now Orton will be in the league.....but playing for his 4th or 6th team.

By August, it's gonna be a Chris Simms World ... and Colbert will be credited with having predicted it first.

kamakazi_kal
05-07-2009, 10:48 AM
By August, it's gonna be a Chris Simms World ... and Colbert will be credited with having predicted it first.

I'm ....ack, ack....hoping that's the ....cough, gag .... case as well.

you go out and win that job you spleenless bastard!!

bombay
11-13-2009, 07:43 PM
lol, so true. This has more to do with attempts and red zone running than the play of the QBs, moranz


It really is sad watching some die hard Broncos fans try to justify the loss of Cutler. there is no justification for it, all the spin in the world doesn't make the trade a good idea, and it never will. This is going to be a hard lesson for some of you


Yep. Hard lesson.