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LittleFloyd
05-04-2009, 10:29 AM
Denver’s coach and quarterback in this together
By Charles Robinson, Yahoo! Sports
1 hour, 21 minutes ago

Buzz up!3 votes Print
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. – It could have been perceived as a negative moment, but Josh McDaniels saw more promise than virus. The Denver Broncos coach watched wideout Eddie Royal blister a path between a safety and cornerback 50 yards downfield, stretching his arms out in the end zone. But the arching spiral from quarterback Kyle Orton was inches too far, dropping to the earth with the thud of a manhole cover.

Royal cursed and punched the football as it bounced back into the air, while teammates let out a chorus of groans. But standing back at the line of scrimmage, McDaniels saw something more.



McDaniels, left, and Orton during minicamp last month.
(David Zalubowski/AP Photo)


“Kyle’s arm,” the coach would later pointedly say, “was strong enough to overthrow Eddie Royal today.”

The statement was a small peek into a marriage – two men joined at the hip, where the natural inclination is to believe that the failure of one could end up dooming the other. Forget the war chest of draft picks the Broncos gained for Jay Cutler. And ignore that Orton is in the final year of his contract. Those are merely smaller points in the inescapable reality of comparison in the NFL – a reality this franchise can no more escape than the surrounding mountaintops can duck beneath the clouds. Seeking Orton in a deal for Cutler will tie the two players together forever, and more importantly, tie McDaniels to a pair of starting quarterbacks who will be painstakingly measured against each other next season.

This scenario is why position-for-position trades are so rare. The two players become inevitably tied together, and success and failure of a deal becomes much more measurable. It’s begging for long-term comparison, which is why fans in New York and San Diego will forever debate Eli Manning and Philip Rivers.

And yet, additional draft picks or not, McDaniels has unequivocally tied himself to Orton in 2009 and perhaps beyond. He did so first by taking him over packages that would have produced either the Washington Redskins’ Jason Campbell or the Tampa Bay Buccaneers’ Luke McCown, and then again on draft day, when he eschewed moving boldly in pursuit of USC’s Mark Sanchez, or modestly for Kansas State’s Josh Freeman. Once Cutler was put on the trading block, the month of April became a period of singular choice rather than consequence. Kyle Orton? For better or worse, he’s McDaniels’ gamble.

So when told of critics inside the Bears franchise who lacked faith in Orton’s arm strength, McDaniels simply protested and offered Sunday’s snapshot, when his fastest wideout couldn’t catch up to Orton’s deep ball.

“The distance you throw the ball down the field, to me at times it can be very overrated,” he said. “I’m worried about accuracy. I’m concerned with them reading the plays the right way, getting it to the people that need to have it on time. For the amount of times you throw the ball 60 yards in a season, I think that’s significantly overrated, unless you’re a team that’s going to throw 10 of those passes a game, which we’re not.”

McDaniels doesn’t say this in a cocky or naďve fashion – two labels that were tattooed on his forehead by some media during the Cutler fallout. Instead, he says it with a few core beliefs when it comes to Orton.

First, in four years in the league, Orton has been given the chance for realistic progress only twice: first as a rookie in 2005, and then again last season as Chicago’s primary starter. And both times, areas of his game became appreciably better. Second, Orton is still young (26), and McDaniels sees room for every area of his game to grow – be it mechanics, decision-making, defensive recognition and so on.

“We think we can make him better,” McDaniels says. “We think we can make him a really competitive, solid quarterback in our system. I’m never going to think otherwise. Everything can get better. He can improve in every area. If [a quarterback] ever stops believing he can get better at something, then he’s lost an edge.”

He says this with supreme confidence. He never lacks for that. It’s a byproduct of being the son of legendary Ohio high school coach Thom McDaniels, and then shimmying up the coaching ladder during his 20s under the tutelage of Nick Saban and Bill Belichick.

He has stolen volumes of knowledge from all of them. Preparation and detail from his father, like knowing that when a player watches film, he should be just as concerned with everything going on in the picture as he is with the activity surrounding himself. Relentless work ethic from Saban, who expected almost scientific precision in practice and games. And the ability to mold and tie together all aspects of coaching, motivation and leadership from Belichick.

McDaniels will likely need it all this season, considering the autopsy the Broncos are about to undergo. Beyond Orton, the team will have a new starting running back in rookie Knowshon Moreno and wholesale changes on defense, which is being revamped both in the talent base and with a new 3-4 scheme. Indeed, the new regime has wasted little time remaking the roster. With 10 draft picks and 14 new veterans signed in free agency, it’s likely that no team in the NFL will have more new faces on the opening day 53-man roster.

All of which fuels a specific expectation: that McDaniels can succeed where other Patriots assistants, such as Romeo Crennel and Eric Mangini, have failed, and transplant the New England model into another NFL team.

“I don’t think that’s unrealistic that Josh can bring it here,” says Broncos running back LaMont Jordan, who spent 2008 with the Patriots. “… No team is more feared or respected than the Patriots. That comes from winning, but I think first and foremost it comes from players buying into the system and then us going out there and doing our jobs. The bottom line, this system is proven. It’s up to the players to go and make it happen. You look at New England the last couple years, they had a tremendous amount of injuries and never lost a step. That’s the mentality of that organization, and I think that’s what Josh is bringing here.”



McDaniels spent eight years with Belichick, left, and the Pats.
(Stephen Savoia/AP Photo)


Certainly, there are elements that are clear to see. He’s extremely detail oriented, to the point where he involves himself in specific teaching. He spent Sunday showing wideouts how and where he expected them to come out of their breaks, working with running backs on their positioning coming out of the backfield, and kept a constant dialogue with his quarterbacks. Meanwhile, he delegated authority, often leaving defensive coordinator Mike Nolan – and his wealth of coaching experience – to drill and manage without someone looking over his shoulder.

“He kind of reminds me of coach [Tony] Dungy that way,” said Broncos defensive end Darrell Reid, who played with the Indianapolis Colts last season. “He checks in, but he lets his coaches do their job.”

And while that transition to the 3-4 and Nolan’s ability to expedite it will be pivotal, there are few illusions about where the microscope will be pointed. It will be hard for the defense to be any worse than it was last season, a point punctuated by the fact that six defensive starters from 2008 – Dre Bly, Dewayne Robertson, Nate Webster, Marquand Manuel, Jamie Winborn and John Engelberger – are still dangling in free agency. But the offense? It returns at full strength and has added a first-round running back. The only thing that appears to be drastically different is the quarterback.

In essence, that will be where ’09 begins and ends. The outside world will be waiting and watching to see whether McDaniels can spin more gold at a position where he helped bring along Tom Brady and Matt Cassel – and whether Orton can assuage the dealing of a 26-year old Pro Bowler who passed for more than 4,500 yards last season. But it’s worth noting that Orton is taking control of something he never had in Chicago – a loaded unit with a two playmaking wideouts, a franchise running back, a marquee tight end and a young and talented offensive line. Whether he can fill Cutler’s shoes, it won’t be for a lack of Cutler’s former arsenal.

“I personally don’t think I’m tied to Jay,” Orton says. “I’m my own player. I feel like I’ve done a lot of great things in the first four years of my career. And now this is a new beginning for me. I look at the situation, and I think I’m going to do even better things for the next five or six years.”

Whether Orton subscribes to it, that measuring stick has been set in place. And the success or failure of both he and McDaniels will undoubtedly be tested against it.

s0phr0syne
05-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Good read, makes me all warm and optimistic. Thanks for posting!

TonyR
05-04-2009, 12:07 PM
Really good read, I'm surprised at the dearth of comments. I guess the haters are having trouble coming up with negative things to say.

This part hit home:

It will be hard for the defense to be any worse than it was last season, a point punctuated by the fact that six defensive starters from 2008 – Dre Bly, Dewayne Robertson, Nate Webster, Marquand Manuel, Jamie Winborn and John Engelberger – are still dangling in free agency.

Hamrob
05-04-2009, 12:28 PM
Good article...I think it hits the nail on the head. There really shouldn't be any excuses. The offense is intact and we've added Moreno. The Defense...can only be improved with the additions we've made both in Free Agency and the Draft. Add to that...what is supposed to be better coaching...and this team should be improved.

So where does that get us? Last year we were 8-8 against a fairly difficult schedule. This year...we have a more difficult schedule...but what should be (without excuses) a better team.

So...what should we expect. I guess...anything from 9-7 to 11-5 would be reasonable...for all these positive changes. Right?

telluride
05-04-2009, 12:36 PM
"dropping to the earth with the thud of a manhole cover."

Huh?

worm
05-04-2009, 12:46 PM
As far as I could tell...people in Chicago were always knocking his lack of accuracy on his deep ball not his arm strength per se.

Something that this article didn't dispel. No kool-aid at work at all ::)

I, for one, can't wait for the real bullets to start flying. The negative articles (Riley et al) and the kool-aid ones (like this and the one ridiculously celebrating the fact that he wants the QB to be in charge in the huddle) are pretty pointless at determining what the Broncos will accomplish on the field this year.

If anything they just depict what a polarizing force McDaniels currently is.

Rashomon
05-04-2009, 12:46 PM
“The distance you throw the ball down the field, to me at times it can be very overrated,” he(McDaniels) said. “I’m worried about accuracy...

Then he has a lot to worry about with Orton, who historically has had poor accuracy 10 yards past the LOS, and only average accuracy inside of that. I guess we will see this year how much receivers dictate the "accuracy" of the QB.

snowspot66
05-04-2009, 12:47 PM
"dropping to the earth with the thud of a manhole cover."

Huh?

He got bored and tried to spice it up a little. Tried being the key word.

alkemical
05-04-2009, 12:53 PM
As far as I could tell...people in Chicago were always knocking his lack of accuracy on his deep ball not his arm strength per se.

Something that this article didn't dispel. No kool-aid at work at all ::)

I, for one, can't wait for the real bullets to start flying. The negative articles (Riley et al) and the kool-aid ones (like this and the one ridiculously celebrating the fact that he wants the QB to be in charge in the huddle) are pretty pointless at determining what the Broncos will accomplish on the field this year.

If anything they just depict what a polarizing force McDaniels currently is.

I think jay's a more talented QB - but the bears receivers aren't good. Cutler will help make them better - but they weren't great by any means. Solid - but noone really stood out.

Kaylore
05-04-2009, 01:06 PM
Orton and the receivers have no chemistry and timing with each other yet. This is something that will take several reps to develop.

Count me as someone who was also wondering why Orton was throwing a 100lb football.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-04-2009, 01:20 PM
Anyone else remember another QB that wasnt all that accurate with the deep ball? Jay Cutler! (he did have that sweet pass to Walker his rookie year, but i wouldnt say being accurate with the deep ball was his specialty)

Kaylore
05-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Anyone else remember another QB that wasnt all that accurate with the deep ball? Jay Cutler! (he did have that sweet pass to Walker his rookie year, but i wouldnt say being accurate with the deep ball was his specialty)

I agree. I think where Cutler's arm strength and accuracy would kill was in intermediate throws over the middle through tight windows. He was like a surgeon with those throws. However the long bomb wasn't his forte'. He would usually be off by quite a bit and he often threw it long when he shouldn't. I can think of several times he went for the home run only to have Marshall bracketed by a safety and a corner.

RunSilentRunDeep
05-04-2009, 01:32 PM
Problem with Orton isn't physical, it's mental. He falls apart late in games. He can hold it together as a front runner in the first half but that's all.

Beej
05-04-2009, 01:35 PM
Count me as someone who was also wondering why Orton was throwing a 100lb football.

Not only that, he overthrew Royal with it! Orton's the man!

SonOfLe-loLang
05-04-2009, 01:39 PM
Problem with Orton isn't physical, it's mental. He falls apart late in games. He can hold it together as a front runner in the first half but that's all.

His record suggests otherwise.

elsid13
05-04-2009, 01:44 PM
You might throw one to two deep ball a game. The rest of the time, it about hitting the intermediate routes within 15 yards for the line of scrimmage. Does Orton have arm strength to make that 12-15 yard out when receiver has defender riding him tight? Because that were true power arms in NFL come into play, not throwing deep balls.

cmhargrove
05-04-2009, 01:51 PM
Then he has a lot to worry about with Orton, who historically has had poor accuracy 10 yards past the LOS, and only average accuracy inside of that. I guess we will see this year how much receivers dictate the "accuracy" of the QB.

Have you watched any Bears games?

Everyone drops passes and runs crappy routes. They are predictable and usually easily defended. Their biggest receiving asset was Matt Forte the running back.

I'm not going to say Orton is a Hall of Famer, but when I watched him play last year I kept seeing dropped passes and poor offensive game plans. The receivers in Chicago just sucked, plain and simple.

I expect Orton's completion to immediately shoot up when he plays games in Denver, and his passing yards will improve with the strong YAC our receivers generally get.

Put that behind our O-line and a potential "feature" running back, and Orton has absolutely no excuses. I expect Orton (or Simms) to have a strong, efficient year as passers.

OBF1
05-04-2009, 01:53 PM
Problem with CUTLER isn't physical, it's mental. He falls apart late in games. He can hold it together as a front runner in the first half but that's all.

fixed it for you LOL

RunSilentRunDeep
05-04-2009, 02:53 PM
His record suggests otherwise.

Don't be fooled by a guy being protected by a good defense in a crappy division. His record is a QB rating of 116.1 in the 1st quarter and 65.7 in the 4th. It drops to 62.2 in the 4th when the game is within 7 points.

I think Cutler is a douchebag but his QB rating was 89.4 in the 1st and 94.2 in the 4th.

Ask Bears fans what they think of Orton in the clutch.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-04-2009, 02:55 PM
Don't be fooled by a guy being protected by a good defense in a crappy division. His record is a QB rating of 116.1 in the 1st quarter and 65.7 in the 4th. It drops to 62.2 in the 4th when the game is within 7 points.

I think Cutler is a douchebag but his QB rating was 89.4 in the 1st and 94.2 in the 4th.

Ask Bears fans what they think of Orton in the clutch.

I watched Orton all last season. Plus, you cant single out him as the reason. Their offense SUCKED. Their 1 wideout was Hester! This guy has been a receiver for like 2 seasons. They had a crap o-line and an unimaginitive game plan. I guarentee if Orton starts, he'll improve just by the people around him.

And I dont care about Jay Cutler's rating in the 4th quarter, i've seen him overwhelm himself and throw interceptions enough times to know he's not gonna be John Elway or Joe Montana until he learns to get a hold of his emotions.

RunSilentRunDeep
05-04-2009, 03:16 PM
I watched Orton all last season. Plus, you cant single out him as the reason. Their offense SUCKED. Their 1 wideout was Hester! This guy has been a receiver for like 2 seasons. They had a crap o-line and an unimaginitive game plan. I guarentee if Orton starts, he'll improve just by the people around him.

And I dont care about Jay Cutler's rating in the 4th quarter, i've seen him overwhelm himself and throw interceptions enough times to know he's not gonna be John Elway or Joe Montana until he learns to get a hold of his emotions.

Sure the receivers were weak but 19 teams gave up more sacks than the crap o-line you talk about. Orton actually got sacked less in the 4th than any other quarter.

I agree Cutler can be a dumbass spaz, but at least he screws up trying to make a big play. Meanwhile, Orton enters reverse puberty when the game is on the line. Of course Orton will improve with better players around him, but if he didn't have serious fleas, Chicago would have never given up so much to get rid of him.

I can tell Cutler hurt you, but don't let that rebound chick you see in Orton fool you. She's not that hot and soon you'll want to discard her as well.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Sure the receivers were weak but 19 teams gave up more sacks than the crap o-line you talk about. Orton actually got sacked less in the 4th than any other quarter.

I agree Cutler can be a dumbass spaz, but at least he screws up trying to make a big play. Meanwhile, Orton enters reverse puberty when the game is on the line. Of course Orton will improve with better players around him, but if he didn't have serious fleas, Chicago would have never given up so much to get rid of him.

I can tell Cutler hurt you, but don't let that rebound chick you see in Orton fool you. She's not that hot and soon you'll want to discard her as well.


Im not saying Orton is better than Cutler, i just dont think he's this disgrace that you think he'll be. Chicago's offense was HORRIBLE. And though i dont have stats in front of me, i bet sack numbers are down in the 4th quarter in general as, teams that are down, generally go against a nickle/dime/prevent and teams that are up control the clock.

JCMElway
05-04-2009, 03:27 PM
Orton and the receivers have no chemistry and timing with each other yet. This is something that will take several reps to develop.

Count me as someone who was also wondering why Orton was throwing a 100lb football.

Because he's a bad mutha***ah, that's why.

telluride
05-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Don't be fooled by a guy being protected by a good defense in a crappy division. His record is a QB rating of 116.1 in the 1st quarter and 65.7 in the 4th. It drops to 62.2 in the 4th when the game is within 7 points.

I think Cutler is a douchebag but his QB rating was 89.4 in the 1st and 94.2 in the 4th.

Ask Bears fans what they think of Orton in the clutch.

That's because he wanted the game to be over so he could get to the bars.

Swedish Extrovert
05-04-2009, 03:50 PM
It is a gamble. Kyle Orton will be the yard stick by which McD will be measured this season.

Since McD is so big on Orton, I'm giving both Orton and McD him the benefit of a doubt.

It's a high-risk game, but if McD thinks he's found his Brady, it could be a good day for the Broncos.

Kaylore
05-04-2009, 04:06 PM
I don't know about McD being high on Orton so much as he favored him above the other QB's offered. I think the draft and success of the team this year, regardless of how good or bad Orton plays, will determine how McDaniels' is received. If Orton plays fabulously and our defense still sucks and we're still getting rolled by thirty points or more at home then I don't think there will be many people supporting McDaniels. On the other hand if Orton looks like Orton but we're tougher, competing every game and the draft picks look promising I think people will come around.

tsiguy96
05-04-2009, 04:11 PM
I don't know about McD being high on Orton so much as he favored him above the other QB's offered. I think the draft and success of the team this year, regardless of how good or bad Orton plays, will determine how McDaniels' is received. If Orton plays fabulously and our defense still sucks and we're still getting rolled by thirty points or more at home then I don't think there will be many people supporting McDaniels. On the other hand if Orton looks like Orton but we're tougher, competing every game and the draft picks look promising I think people will come around.

if the whole team looks bad, not competitive, we are (still) getting rolled by 30 a game multiple times this season, i think mcdaniels gets one more year, one more chance to prove that hes not bad. he needs atleast 2 years though.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-04-2009, 04:15 PM
I don't know about McD being high on Orton so much as he favored him above the other QB's offered. I think the draft and success of the team this year, regardless of how good or bad Orton plays, will determine how McDaniels' is received. If Orton plays fabulously and our defense still sucks and we're still getting rolled by thirty points or more at home then I don't think there will be many people supporting McDaniels. On the other hand if Orton looks like Orton but we're tougher, competing every game and the draft picks look promising I think people will come around.

I agree to a point. If the offense and Orton are successful, i think McDaniels will have proved himself as a successful QB maker, which is what he put on the line when we traded cutler. I think he'd be in much more trouble if the D suddenly got decent, but the offense couldn't score.

broncosteven
05-04-2009, 06:35 PM
I don't know about McD being high on Orton so much as he favored him above the other QB's offered. I think the draft and success of the team this year, regardless of how good or bad Orton plays, will determine how McDaniels' is received. If Orton plays fabulously and our defense still sucks and we're still getting rolled by thirty points or more at home then I don't think there will be many people supporting McDaniels. On the other hand if Orton looks like Orton but we're tougher, competing every game and the draft picks look promising I think people will come around.

I would even start to come around if Orton was a mistake but the rest of the team played tough and we are only a QB away from being very good.

I think Orton will be a good rebuilding QB but won't be a QB highlight reel which I can live with if we are close to winning.

I don't want to see the D remain embarassing bad or only marginally better and the O take a dive.

Swedish Extrovert
05-04-2009, 06:54 PM
Well, yeah... Orton isn't going to be spectacular, but lets be honest... is Tom Brady spectacular, or just incredibly efficient?

There's a difference.

But seriously, considering what we got for Cutler (Orton, Ayers, Smith, Quinn), if his production is half that of Cutlers... and if he has the same red zone numbers as he did in Chicago, the Broncos will win AT LEAST 9 games this year, possibly 10 or 11.

kdissette
05-04-2009, 07:27 PM
its nice to have a glimmer of hope amongst all the negativity

ton80
05-04-2009, 10:03 PM
Really good read, I'm surprised at the dearth of comments. I guess the haters are having trouble coming up with negative things to say.

This part hit home:

It will be hard for the defense to be any worse than it was last season, a point punctuated by the fact that six defensive starters from 2008 – Dre Bly, Dewayne Robertson, Nate Webster, Marquand Manuel, Jamie Winborn and John Engelberger – are still dangling in free agency.

That is pure suckage.

Punisher
05-04-2009, 10:34 PM
Good Kool-Aid Read.

Kaylore
05-05-2009, 12:08 AM
I agree to a point. If the offense and Orton are successful, i think McDaniels will have proved himself as a successful QB maker, which is what he put on the line when we traded cutler. I think he'd be in much more trouble if the D suddenly got decent, but the offense couldn't score.
This is where I disagree. I think Bowlen wants a team that wins and is competing for a Super Bowl. If he gets another version of Shanahan I don't believe he'll be at all pleased with the situation. Bowlen wants the whole team better in all three phases. This is also where I'm coming from. You traded Cutler? Fine. But make sure all the other areas work. I'm not tied to one player if the whole team improves. I do think he's on the right track.

ZONA
05-05-2009, 12:46 AM
You have to consider Orton's accuracy to be an "open" debate at this point. A weak offensive line doesn't give a QB much time to throw as he should. If everything is rushed, the timing is going to be off more times then not. And one post above wanted to know how much receivers affect accuracy, well, the answer is alot. The timing HAS to be there. The receivers need to run good routes and also improvise to help the QB. If he's to run a 15 yard skinny post and he sees a LB dropping into a zone where he is supposed to go, he needs to sit down in the soft spot or modify the route so he's not leading the QB into coverage. In other words, they have to GET OPEN. A major factor in alot of QB's having poor accuracy is unfairly all dumped on the QB, when alot of times it's a poor receiver who can't get open or a bad OL who just can't give the QB any time at all.

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 07:31 AM
F that crap. When I start seeing some wins I'll kiss and make-up with McD. Now watch Simms go out and win the starting spot.

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 07:35 AM
You have to consider Orton's accuracy to be an "open" debate at this point. A weak offensive line doesn't give a QB much time to throw as he should. If everything is rushed, the timing is going to be off more times then not. And one post above wanted to know how much receivers affect accuracy, well, the answer is alot. The timing HAS to be there. The receivers need to run good routes and also improvise to help the QB. If he's to run a 15 yard skinny post and he sees a LB dropping into a zone where he is supposed to go, he needs to sit down in the soft spot or modify the route so he's not leading the QB into coverage. In other words, they have to GET OPEN. A major factor in alot of QB's having poor accuracy is unfairly all dumped on the QB, when alot of times it's a poor receiver who can't get open or a bad OL who just can't give the QB any time at all.

Really Orton had his time to get the passes off.

That running game kept the LB's very busy. Forte was awesome in the pass and run game. If you watched them any you would see Orton check his primary WR then dump it off most of the time. (see forte's 60 something rec.)

That could be the system he lovey smith runs I don't know.

Hulamau
05-05-2009, 07:55 AM
Well, yeah... Orton isn't going to be spectacular, but lets be honest... is Tom Brady spectacular, or just incredibly efficient?

There's a difference.

But seriously, considering what we got for Cutler (Orton, Ayers, Smith, Quinn), if his production is half that of Cutlers... and if he has the same red zone numbers as he did in Chicago, the Broncos will win AT LEAST 9 games this year, possibly 10 or 11.

That's very true, Orton in this system with this offense is going to be a much more proficient Orton than he was in Chicago, and that wasn't half bad at all when he wasn't injured so badly as mid-way through last year. Hell, he won 10 games his rookie season even though they weren't, and still are not, a pass happy offense.! And he got robbed when they yanked the playoffs from him as well.

Its still a shame we couldn't see what Cutler could have become if he really submitted himself to truly learning the finer points of the game and bought into the system hook line and sinker. But that's 100% on Cutler pouting and whining his way out of town. You really have to try hard to get on Bowlen's ***list too.

I can bet that in the long run no matter what Cutler is going to be the porrer player than he could have been with a few years at least under McD's detail oriented meticulous NO BULLS**t methods.

Than he will ever become in Chicago, no matter how many wins they have, with Turner, Anglo and Smith rimmin' his johnson before every game.

Rashomon
05-05-2009, 08:39 AM
You have to consider Orton's accuracy to be an "open" debate at this point. A weak offensive line doesn't give a QB much time to throw as he should. If everything is rushed, the timing is going to be off more times then not. And one post above wanted to know how much receivers affect accuracy, well, the answer is alot. The timing HAS to be there. The receivers need to run good routes and also improvise to help the QB. If he's to run a 15 yard skinny post and he sees a LB dropping into a zone where he is supposed to go, he needs to sit down in the soft spot or modify the route so he's not leading the QB into coverage. In other words, they have to GET OPEN. A major factor in alot of QB's having poor accuracy is unfairly all dumped on the QB, when alot of times it's a poor receiver who can't get open or a bad OL who just can't give the QB any time at all.

My statement about receivers and accuracy was a rhetorical question. Yes, the receivers can help make a QB better, but a good QB can make all other aspects of the offense better as well. Was Denver's O-Line that much better than Chicago's, or was Cutler's mobility and quicker decision making the biggest reason that sacks were lower in Denver? Did you realize that statistically, Denver's rushing offense was a lot better than Chicago's last year, even though Forte was better than any running back Denver used? Was it because defenses respected Cutler's abilities and didn't load up the box, whereas they didn't respect Orton and sold out to stop the run?

The Cutler haters argue that he was surrounded by a terrific offense, and they discount how much he contributed to that offense. This year will be the test of that theory. Every aspect of the offense, with the exception of QB, should be better. Denver has brought in a feature back, and the offensive line and receivers are still improving. Barring injuries, if this offense isn't Top 5 in the league, McDaniels will have failed miserably.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-05-2009, 08:52 AM
This is where I disagree. I think Bowlen wants a team that wins and is competing for a Super Bowl. If he gets another version of Shanahan I don't believe he'll be at all pleased with the situation. Bowlen wants the whole team better in all three phases. This is also where I'm coming from. You traded Cutler? Fine. But make sure all the other areas work. I'm not tied to one player if the whole team improves. I do think he's on the right track.

Oh, dont get me wrong, I agree with everything you said above, i'm saying that if the offense performs at a high level, yet the defense continues to struggle, i think McD will be given the benefit of the doubt and a bit more leeway. I dont think Bowlen will be happy either way regardless.

Tombstone RJ
05-05-2009, 08:53 AM
Redzone scoring is all that really matters. You have to score TDs when your in the redzone and Shanny's offense seemed to struggle with this concept for a long time, even with Cutler.

If Orton runs an efficient offense and that offense scores TDs in the redzone, no one will remember Cutler.

Combine that with a hungry defense that at the very least is well coached, and you have an improved team.

Combine both of the above with solid special teams and better field position for both the offense and the defense and you have the foundations for a winning franchise.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-05-2009, 08:56 AM
My statement about receivers and accuracy was a rhetorical question. Yes, the receivers can help make a QB better, but a good QB can make all other aspects of the offense better as well. Was Denver's O-Line that much better than Chicago's, or was Cutler's mobility and quicker decision making the biggest reason that sacks were lower in Denver? Did you realize that statistically, Denver's rushing offense was a lot better than Chicago's last year, even though Forte was better than any running back Denver used? Was it because defenses respected Cutler's abilities and didn't load up the box, whereas they didn't respect Orton and sold out to stop the run?

The Cutler haters argue that he was surrounded by a terrific offense, and they discount how much he contributed to that offense. This year will be the test of that theory. Every aspect of the offense, with the exception of QB, should be better. Denver has brought in a feature back, and the offensive line and receivers are still improving. Barring injuries, if this offense isn't Top 5 in the league, McDaniels will have failed miserably.

Our offense, points wise, was 16th in the league last year, and somewhat pedestrian in general after week 3. Also, McDaniels is installing an entirely new offense that will take time to gel, so i think "failing miserably" if not in the top 5 is being a bit dramatic.

Plus, it's nice to have a coach that values special teams.

Rashomon
05-05-2009, 09:00 AM
If Orton runs an efficient offense and that offense scores TDs in the redzone, no one will remember Cutler.


I think that Moreno will have a lot larger impact on red zone efficiency than the switch from Cutler to Orton.

alkemical
05-05-2009, 09:06 AM
I just want to see improvement thru the end of the season

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 09:07 AM
Redzone scoring is all that really matters. You have to score TDs when your in the redzone and Shanny's offense seemed to struggle with this concept for a long time, even with Cutler.

If Orton runs an efficient offense and that offense scores TDs in the redzone, no one will remember Cutler.

Combine that with a hungry defense that at the very least is well coached, and you have an improved team.

Combine both of the above with solid special teams and better field position for both the offense and the defense and you have the foundations for a winning franchise.

so, more TD's, Better D, Good ST = better team, hell that was easy (insert mcd holding the lombardi trophy here)

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 09:08 AM
I think that Moreno will have a lot larger impact on red zone efficiency than the switch from Cutler to Orton.

agreed.

Swedish Extrovert
05-05-2009, 09:12 AM
I think that Moreno will have a lot larger impact on red zone efficiency than the switch from Cutler to Orton.

I agree with both your and RJ's take.

Honestly, Orton can be a game manager, which is all we need.

Does anyone know the stats for B-Marsh YAC? It had to be toward the top of the league. He reminds me of TO in many ways (both fortunatley and unfortunatley).

SonOfLe-loLang
05-05-2009, 09:14 AM
I agree with both your and RJ's take.

Honestly, Orton can be a game manager, which is all we need.

Does anyone know the stats for B-Marsh YAC? It had to be toward the top of the league. He reminds me of TO in many ways (both fortunatley and unfortunatley).

He reminds me of TO the player, not the person. I dont think Owens has had law trouble, has he? he's just an a-hole in the locker room. B-marsh seems to be more of a leader and likeable guy in the locker room that has had trouble with the law.

alkemical
05-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Here's my take:

In some ways - i'm actually trusting Mc****face with the cutler situation. I think he knows QB's. I feel he knew cutler was good, but might have some douchieness to him.

While Cutler is an incredible talent - I also felt cutler's Emo mentality was his make or break factor.

So with the cutler trade, and trading a 1st and not getting at least another pick in return makes me question him (Mc****face) - i also see the direction he's building the team - and i do enjoy his philosphy that he's trying to instill here.

I think with Marshall, royal, the OL - this team is poised to create a power running version of the pats 0. Just like shanny made a power run version of the WCO.

I just want the team to improve week to week.

It's not a bad thing if the team as a whole is built above average. Let's face it, we had some ****ty talent on this team as far as backups and role players for a while.

Swedish Extrovert
05-05-2009, 09:31 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty confident that B-Marsh is a nice guy, and wants to do the right thing. Trouble just finds some people, you know?

Rashomon
05-05-2009, 09:45 AM
I agree with both your and RJ's take.

Honestly, Orton can be a game manager, which is all we need.

Does anyone know the stats for B-Marsh YAC? It had to be toward the top of the league. He reminds me of TO in many ways (both fortunatley and unfortunatley).

Marshall was 12th in the league last year in YAC, with 439. Welker was 1 with 758, and Matt Forte was 11 with 441.

I found a great site with all kinds of stats like that.
http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats.html

For instance, Cutler was 4th in the league with 1881 YAC, behind Brees, Warner and Cassel. Orton was 15th with 1450. Cutler was also 1st in Passing Yards Lost on Penalty with 290. Ben R. was 2nd with 249.

Swedish Extrovert
05-05-2009, 09:53 AM
Marshall was 12th in the league last year in YAC, with 439. Welker was 1 with 758, and Matt Forte was 11 with 441.

I found a great site with all kinds of stats like that.
http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats.html

For instance, Cutler was 4th in the league with 1881 YAC, behind Brees, Warner and Cassel. Orton was 15th with 1450. Cutler was also 1st in Passing Yards Lost on Penalty with 290. Ben R. was 2nd with 249.

Nice find... Orton's YAC will go up in Denver. Cutler's will go down in Chicago.

gyldenlove
05-05-2009, 10:06 AM
Here's my take:

In some ways - i'm actually trusting Mc****face with the cutler situation. I think he knows QB's. I feel he knew cutler was good, but might have some douchieness to him.

While Cutler is an incredible talent - I also felt cutler's Emo mentality was his make or break factor.

So with the cutler trade, and trading a 1st and not getting at least another pick in return makes me question him (Mc****face) - i also see the direction he's building the team - and i do enjoy his philosphy that he's trying to instill here.

I think with Marshall, royal, the OL - this team is poised to create a power running version of the pats 0. Just like shanny made a power run version of the WCO.

I just want the team to improve week to week.

It's not a bad thing if the team as a whole is built above average. Let's face it, we had some ****ty talent on this team as far as backups and role players for a while.


A bad QB can make an all-world WR look crappy, case in point Randy Moss with the Raiders.

A good QB does more for a WR than a good WR does for a QB.

alkemical
05-05-2009, 10:12 AM
A bad QB can make an all-world WR look crappy, case in point Randy Moss with the Raiders.

A good QB does more for a WR than a good WR does for a QB.

I"m not disagreeing with that. I guess i'm looking at intangibles in how McFF rated cutler.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-05-2009, 10:14 AM
A bad QB can make an all-world WR look crappy, case in point Randy Moss with the Raiders.

A good QB does more for a WR than a good WR does for a QB.

While I agree with your general statement, Randy Moss was a crap receiver in Oakland because he completely quit and played in a very unstructured offense. His first year in Oakland provided decent stats, a high yards per reception and a thousand yard season.

I dont think Orton is a "bad" QB and the current system will be friendly to his skill set.

Inkana7
05-05-2009, 11:08 AM
QB Rating in the Red Zone:

Jay: 74.1 (30/32 QBs)

Orton: 96(11/32 QBs)

Only 2 QBs had worse Red Zone QB ratings than cutler. Interesting.

TonyR
05-05-2009, 11:22 AM
QB Rating in the Red Zone:

Jay: 74.1 (30/32 QBs)

Orton: 96(11/32 QBs)

Only 2 QBs had worse Red Zone QB ratings than cutler. Interesting.

VERY interesting. And I wonder how the Cutler fanboys will spin this. Hard to blame this one on the defense...

Swedish Extrovert
05-05-2009, 11:25 AM
VERY interesting. And I wonder how the Cutler fanboys will spin this. Hard to blame this one on the defense...

Viable running game.

Inkana7
05-05-2009, 11:25 AM
Jay's Number 1!!...in Red Zone picks!

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/interceptionsinopp20.html

Inkana7
05-05-2009, 11:29 AM
He's also in the bottom of the NFL in Red Zone completion percentage. 46.4%

TonyR
05-05-2009, 11:30 AM
Viable running game.

Yes, we had 7 or 8 RB's on IR, but we also had a "viable running game" most of the season. We were 12th in the league in total rushing yards and tied for 2nd in yards per carry. That excuse only gets you so far.

worm
05-05-2009, 12:02 PM
Yes, we had 7 or 8 RB's on IR, but we also had a "viable running game" most of the season. We were 12th in the league in total rushing yards and tied for 2nd in yards per carry. That excuse only gets you so far.

Cutler and Royal's running numbers hardly count as a viable running game. Take their running totals away and the Broncos are 29th in the league in total rushing yards.

To think that the running game was not THE major contributor with some of these Red Zone metrics is just silly.

You actually do watch the games, right?

tsiguy96
05-05-2009, 12:07 PM
i love how nothing is cutlers fault to the anti-mcdaniels crown. its everyone elses fault always, he never, ever makes mistakes, not game devastating picks, ever.

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 12:08 PM
Cutler and Royal's running numbers hardly count as a viable running game. Take their running totals away and the Broncos are 29th in the league in total rushing yards.

To think that the running game was not THE major contributor with some of these Red Zone metrics is just silly.

You actually do watch the games, right?

viable running between the 20's in the 10 yd and closer range our runners were a joke. That's why everyone became so enamored with hillis he had the ability to "punch it in" from short range ...... to bad that only lasted a handful of games.

oubronco
05-05-2009, 12:12 PM
VERY interesting. And I wonder how the Cutler fanboys will spin this. Hard to blame this one on the defense...

when you don't have a run game the defense can tee off and bring the house cause the secondary doesn't have very much field to defend

How's that ;)

oubronco
05-05-2009, 12:14 PM
i love how nothing is cutlers fault to the anti-mcdaniels crown. its everyone elses fault always, he never, ever makes mistakes, not game devastating picks, ever.

I suppose you were a big fan of Plummer right :thumbsup:

TonyR
05-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Cutler and Royal's running numbers hardly count as a viable running game. Take their running totals away and the Broncos are 29th in the league in total rushing yards.


Really? Now go take away the rush yards of every team's QB's and WR's and redo the numbers.

TonyR
05-05-2009, 12:31 PM
when you don't have a run game the defense can tee off and bring the house cause the secondary doesn't have very much field to defend


So they can "tee off" in the red zone but not outside of it? How does that work, exactly? They all took it easy on us until we got inside their 20?

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 12:38 PM
So they can "tee off" in the red zone but not outside of it? How does that work, exactly? They all took it easy on us until we got inside their 20?

No, they didn't take it easy on us. As the defense becomes compressed inside the 20 they start to gain an advantage just by virtue of a smaller field to cover.

bowtown
05-05-2009, 12:54 PM
No, they didn't take it easy on us. As the defense becomes compressed inside the 20 they start to gain an advantage just by virtue of a smaller field to cover.

And by virtue of our QB being terrible inside the redzone. ;)

broncosteven
05-05-2009, 12:57 PM
I suppose you were a big fan of Plummer right :thumbsup:

Nope, I think he followed McStalin over from the Patsy's.

oubronco
05-05-2009, 12:59 PM
So they can "tee off" in the red zone but not outside of it? How does that work, exactly? They all took it easy on us until we got inside their 20?

you were looking for a reason so I offered you one

Rashomon
05-05-2009, 01:02 PM
So they can "tee off" in the red zone but not outside of it? How does that work, exactly? They all took it easy on us until we got inside their 20?

If Denver has the ball First and 10 at their own 20, what are you worried about stopping? Cutler going deep to Marshall and Royal, or Tatum Bell breaking off a long run? You are willing to give up rushing yards to avoid the big passing play, which Cutler led the league in. As they get in the red zone, everything is compressed, and the running lanes aren't as big.

There is really no point in comparing Cutler and Orton's stats last year, because they played in two different offenses that had different strengths. Chicago was 3-2 in games where Orton did not pass for a TD, while Denver was 0-2 when Cutler didn't. Orton was just not asked to carry his team, whether it was due to poor receivers, good running backs, or the team's belief that he wasn't capable.

I think this next season will be an interesting test case. I can't recall the last time two teams switched starting quarterbacks, so there will be many ways to compare the two. The only other variable, and it is a huge one, is that Denvers playcalling is not the same as last season. It will be interesting to see how much Chicago moves from the dink and dunk passing game that they had under Orton

telluride
05-05-2009, 01:10 PM
If Denver has the ball First and 10 at their own 20, what are you worried about stopping? Cutler going deep to Marshall and Royal, or Tatum Bell breaking off a long run? You are willing to give up rushing yards to avoid the big passing play, which Cutler led the league in. As they get in the red zone, everything is compressed, and the running lanes aren't as big.

There is really no point in comparing Cutler and Orton's stats last year, because they played in two different offenses that had different strengths. Chicago was 3-2 in games where Orton did not pass for a TD, while Denver was 0-2 when Cutler didn't. Orton was just not asked to carry his team, whether it was due to poor receivers, good running backs, or the team's belief that he wasn't capable.

I think this next season will be an interesting test case. I can't recall the last time two teams switched starting quarterbacks, so there will be many ways to compare the two. The only other variable, and it is a huge one, is that Denvers playcalling is not the same as last season. It will be interesting to see how much Chicago moves from the dink and dunk passing game that they had under Orton

Not that they have Cutler, I believe Chicago is installing a drink and drunk offense....

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 01:47 PM
Not that they have Cutler, I believe Chicago is installing a drink and drunk offense....

they had orton last year ...... i think the drink and drunk was already in effect. they just found a better drunk to put in there.

broncosteven
05-05-2009, 01:54 PM
Nice find... Orton's YAC will go up in Denver. Cutler's will go down in Chicago.

I dunno, DA BEARS have their own HIXON this year:

The Bears got their first look at some of their new players today at their first mini-camp of the spring/summer. One player that seemed to draw raves was new wide receiver Juaquin Iglesias. The rookie took charge in 7-on-7 drills, at one point making a niffty catch over the middle. Iglesias seems to be a guy that can come in from day one and have an impact, and while it’s only one practice in May, he looked awfully good for a player that didn’t get picked till the 9th overall selection.

http://www.bearsgab.com/2009/05/01/rookie-wr-iglesias-makes-an-early-impact-at-mini-camp/

oubronco
05-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Juaquin Iglesias is a very good possession reciever and has speed to get the YAC

kamakazi_kal
05-05-2009, 02:06 PM
and you know Hester can get down field. Guess we'll see if it's the QB that makes the reciever or the other way around.

uplink
05-05-2009, 02:26 PM
....

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 02:38 PM
I watched Orton all last season. Plus, you cant single out him as the reason. Their offense SUCKED. Their 1 wideout was Hester! This guy has been a receiver for like 2 seasons. They had a crap o-line and an unimaginitive game plan. I guarentee if Orton starts, he'll improve just by the people around him.

And I dont care about Jay Cutler's rating in the 4th quarter, i've seen him overwhelm himself and throw interceptions enough times to know he's not gonna be John Elway or Joe Montana until he learns to get a hold of his emotions.

Problem with Hester is his routes. He never runs the same route the same way. Watch they guy!!! It takes yrs of work to become a great WR. Eddie Mac used to run his routes down to the inch. That's right not an inch too far, not an inch too short. Hester IMO is a sloppy route runner with avg hands. True once he has bal he is special runner but thats it.

When we drafted Cutler a friend of mine on another football site told me you drafted the spaz. I said what? He said Cutler freaks out under pressure and does strange things with the ball. After 3 yrs I see what he means.

Last yr against the Chargers a perfect example. He just friggin dropped the ball. How many times did you ever see Elway or Montana do that after already being a starter in NFL for 2 yrs?

cutthemdown
05-05-2009, 02:41 PM
and you know Hester can get down field. Guess we'll see if it's the QB that makes the reciever or the other way around.

Problem is Hesters hands aren't that great IMO. You can watch him yourself and see what you think but IMO he doesn't snatch the ball out of the air like real number 1 WR do.

Hester should be a ST guy and a 3rd wr. They have him at number 1 and he's just not polished like the other number 1's in the NFL.

broncosteven
05-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Problem with Hester is his routes. He never runs the same route the same way. Watch they guy!!! It takes yrs of work to become a great WR. Eddie Mac used to run his routes down to the inch. That's right not an inch too far, not an inch too short. Hester IMO is a sloppy route runner with avg hands. True once he has bal he is special runner but thats it.

When we drafted Cutler a friend of mine on another football site told me you drafted the spaz. I said what? He said Cutler freaks out under pressure and does strange things with the ball. After 3 yrs I see what he means.

Last yr against the Chargers a perfect example. He just friggin dropped the ball. How many times did you ever see Elway or Montana do that after already being a starter in NFL for 2 yrs?

Hester's problem is he is not smart enough, or maybe he doesn't study hard enough (dunno I never met him), either way he still has not proven that he knows where to line up or what the read is, what to do in an audible situation, etc...

2 years ago Moose had to tell him where to line up presnap.

Last year he kinda knew where to go but his routes were crap. Unless he gets a step on a guy he is not going to make the play.

CTD is right that he doesn't catch the ball well. He never bothered to field punts clean either. He made bad decisions with punts, the one he fumbled when they beat us for example. He used to be able to make a big return and get everyone to love him for saving the day. Well it has been a full season since he has returned one for a TD and he is not a true #1 WR.

I think Hester rely's on his speed and doesn't want to put in the time studying or catching passes after practice.

I don't know what they will do with Hester but they are talking up Iglacies and Kinder big time.

slyinky
05-06-2009, 12:59 AM
If Denver has the ball First and 10 at their own 20, what are you worried about stopping? Cutler going deep to Marshall and Royal, or Tatum Bell breaking off a long run? You are willing to give up rushing yards to avoid the big passing play, which Cutler led the league in. As they get in the red zone, everything is compressed, and the running lanes aren't as big.

There is really no point in comparing Cutler and Orton's stats last year, because they played in two different offenses that had different strengths. Chicago was 3-2 in games where Orton did not pass for a TD, while Denver was 0-2 when Cutler didn't. Orton was just not asked to carry his team, whether it was due to poor receivers, good running backs, or the team's belief that he wasn't capable.

I think this next season will be an interesting test case. I can't recall the last time two teams switched starting quarterbacks, so there will be many ways to compare the two. The only other variable, and it is a huge one, is that Denvers playcalling is not the same as last season. It will be interesting to see how much Chicago moves from the dink and dunk passing game that they had under Orton
Actually, teams shouldn't have worried too much. Cutler threw the ball over 30 yards 27 times, completing 8 passes (four to Broncos receivers and four to the opposition): 4 of 27 for 193 yds 1 TD 4 Int's. To be honest, Orton was horrible himself: 1 of 9 for 37 yds 0 TD's 3 Int's.

In regards to the dink and dunk passing game? Out of 616 pass attempts, Cutler threw 80 over 20 yards or 12.9%. Orton threw 57 passes over 20 yards out of 465 attempts for 12.2%. Not that great of a difference. In contrast, Matt Cassel last year only threw 38 of 516 passes for over 20 yards. Just 7%.

watermock
05-06-2009, 01:26 AM
Orton and the receivers have no chemistry and timing with each other yet. This is something that will take several reps to develop.

Count me as someone who was also wondering why Orton was throwing a 100lb football.

Ever see a duck come down after it's shot??