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cmhargrove
04-29-2009, 01:25 PM
Just asking a logical question here about next year's draft.

Everyone is bitching about possibly trading out of a high first round draft pick next year because they say next year's draft will be much stronger.

Isn't the benefit of a "strong draft" the fact that you have lots of great players all the way through the first round (and even into the second round), and not just in the top 10?

So what gives? Aren't there quite a few people around here talking about the strength of next year's draft, but then saying we have to have a high pick or we won't get a good player?

Logic please?

rugbythug
04-29-2009, 01:30 PM
while I am neither for or against the pick I do know this

2>1

TheDave
04-29-2009, 01:30 PM
A bunch of highly touted juniors decided to stay in school... Next year "should" be SIGNIFICANTLY more talented in the top 10 as well as deeper through every round.

This draft was much weaker than I thought... Usually we see teams grasping for straws in the 4th or 5th round. This year teams were pulling out the wild cards in the 2nd round.

That and 2010 is projected to be a very good draft for both QB's and Dlinemen... perceived areas of need for us.

The Joker
04-29-2009, 01:31 PM
I assume the idea is that having two first rounders in a strong draft gives you a much better chance of getting two quality players than you would in a weaker draft.

I'm fine with the Smith trade, but it's hardly difficult to grasp why people would rather the extra first next year.

oubronco
04-29-2009, 01:34 PM
I was feeling pretty damn good about getting Bradford or Cody next year but now we don't have a fuggin shot at either

Kaylore
04-29-2009, 01:38 PM
If there are better players than Alphonso Smith in the first round next year, and there likely will be, and any of those players could help the Broncos more than Alphonso Smith will, and that's to be determined, then it was a bad trade.

Popcorn Sutton
04-29-2009, 01:40 PM
while I am neither for or against the pick I do know this

2>1

With that simple logic then you could say 3 > 2 for this years draft.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 01:42 PM
Even caring about next yr a joke to me. Anything can happen. Cutler could get injured and Bears go 7-9, we go 6-10 and the pick is exactly a few spots different. Smith could be defensive rookie of the yr by then, or have taken over the starting spot etc.

Hell he could be a fan favorite like Royal by the draft next yr. Anyone thinking ahead already to next yrs draft hasn't been around football very long. Look at who they project right now, then look at it later, and it will look very different.

There simply isn't enough money to sign 4 first round picks over 2 yrs, and still be players in the FA market, and resign Marshall, Kuper etc when time comes.

Broncos seem to me to have a plan and I am on board. I'm sure once the kid makes a play or two all of you will be also.

Popcorn Sutton
04-29-2009, 01:42 PM
I was feeling pretty *** good about getting Bradford or Cody next year but now we don't have a fuggin shot at either

That would go completely against the grain of what McDaniels does... It's like Shanahan never drafts first rounds Runningbacks. McDaniels/Belichick's Disciple never drafts first round QB's. You would have got your hopes up to only be let down so be thankful you got that out of the way. :approve:

Gcver2ver3
04-29-2009, 01:43 PM
Just asking a logical question here about next year's draft.

Everyone is b****ing about possibly trading out of a high first round draft pick next year because they say next year's draft will be much stronger.

Isn't the benefit of a "strong draft" the fact that you have lots of great players all the way through the first round (and even into the second round), and not just in the top 10?

So what gives? Aren't there quite a few people around here talking about the strength of next year's draft, but then saying we have to have a high pick or we won't get a good player?

Logic please?

two things:

One...our traded 1st round pick won't be a top 10 pick....

and B...we will not have interest in any of next year's 1st round QB prospects...

Taco John
04-29-2009, 01:43 PM
For my part, I'd have rather saved that pick for a high calibre DT next year, rather than a high calibre CB this year. Seems like we've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that high calibre CBs aren't able to affect the game as much if they're not getting a good push up front to help them out.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 01:43 PM
If there are better players than Alphonso Smith in the first round next year, and there likely will be, and any of those players could help the Broncos more than Alphonso Smith will, and that's to be determined, then it was a bad trade.

Well you would have to factor in how the kid plays and we don't know that yet.

If he helps win a few games with interceptions, can be a starter, then its a good pick. Bailey and Goodman both over 30. The team needed corners IMO.

Taco John
04-29-2009, 01:45 PM
Anyone thinking ahead already to next yrs draft hasn't been around football very long.

I'll bet more than a few people around here who have watched football for decades would disagree with that. Just saying things doesn't make them true.

The Joker
04-29-2009, 01:50 PM
If there are better players than Alphonso Smith in the first round next year, and there likely will be, and any of those players could help the Broncos more than Alphonso Smith will, and that's to be determined, then it was a bad trade.

There'll almost always be somebody who could do better than what you took though.

Say Moreno becomes one of the best backs in the league, having an LT-esque career, but meanwhile Josh Freeman turns out to be the greatest QB the NFL has ever seen.

Does that make Moreno a bad pick?

It's an overdone example, obviously, but I think if you take the approach you've outlines you'll never be satisfied.

If Alphonso Smith becomes a good starting CB in the NFL, then I'm fine with the trade really.

If not, it's a bad trade.

oubronco
04-29-2009, 01:51 PM
For my part, I'd have rather saved that pick for a high calibre DT next year, rather than a high calibre CB this year. Seems like we've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that high calibre CBs aren't able to affect the game as much if they're not getting a good push up front to help them out.

I agree with this wholeheartedly we need kicka** D-Linemen and having 20 DB's isn't going to help that fact

oubronco
04-29-2009, 01:52 PM
There'll almost always be somebody who could do better than what you took though.

Say Moreno becomes one of the best backs in the league, having an LT-esque career, but meanwhile Josh Freeman turns out to be the greatest QB the NFL has ever seen.
Does that make Moreno a bad pick?

It's an overdone example, obviously, but I think if you take the approach you've outlines you'll never be satisfied.

If Alphonso Smith becomes a good starting CB in the NFL, then I'm fine with the trade really.

If not, it's a bad trade.

Hilarious! DUDE Hilarious!

gyldenlove
04-29-2009, 01:53 PM
That would go completely against the grain of what McDaniels does... It's like Shanahan never drafts first rounds Runningbacks. McDaniels/Belichick's Disciple never drafts first round QB's. You would have got your hopes up to only be let down so be thankful you got that out of the way. :approve:

50% of them do. Mangini only drafted a 2nd round QB, Crennel drafted 1st round.

lostknight
04-29-2009, 01:56 PM
One thing that we keep ignoring anyways is that Chicago's pick next year is almost certainly going to be higher then our pick this year, just based on the fact that our pick this year was already lower then Chicago's pick.

That alone is a reason why we should have traded the Chicago pick.

What's more is that the pick was basically as a luxury pick for Smith. I am the first to enjoy breaking the mold with players, but corner is not a easy position to pick up.

The problem I have is that short term thinking can impact the long term future of clubs. McDaniels is basically mortgaging next year to make this year work. And the asset that he picked up is somewhat questionable.

So either it works, and we win immediately, in which case the pick isn't as important, because we don't have as many thing to fix, or we suck, the pick is valuable, and we already traded it away.

There is no middle ground with McDaniels. No hedging his bet. He gets to make the call, but if he is wrong, it will have a huge impact on our franchise.

Popcorn Sutton
04-29-2009, 02:02 PM
50% of them do. Mangini only drafted a 2nd round QB, Crennel drafted 1st round.

Crennel hired the Chargers former offensive coordinator and Mangini hired the Chargers former QB coach to run his offense.

McDaniels has come to Denver from day one and let it be known that he is bringing the Patriot Way with him. I'd say McDaniels has gone a long way to prove that point. Wouldn't you?

Popcorn Sutton
04-29-2009, 02:04 PM
McDaniels is basically mortgaging next year to make this year work.

We still have our full lot of 7 picks next year.

Elway777
04-29-2009, 02:11 PM
The only way trading next year first work out if the Broncos use that money to get a player like Wilfork.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 02:14 PM
Its stupid to discuss now because we have no clue where we will be picking, who will be avail, what we need...etc. Lets revisit this in 3 years.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 02:15 PM
For my part, I'd have rather saved that pick for a high calibre DT next year, rather than a high calibre CB this year.

I don't disagree, but what's interesting is that, unless I'm mistaken, CB is a higher paid position. So teams put a higher value on CB's for whatever reason.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 02:17 PM
Just asking a logical question here about next year's draft.

Everyone is b****ing about possibly trading out of a high first round draft pick next year because they say next year's draft will be much stronger.

Isn't the benefit of a "strong draft" the fact that you have lots of great players all the way through the first round (and even into the second round), and not just in the top 10?

So what gives? Aren't there quite a few people around here talking about the strength of next year's draft, but then saying we have to have a high pick or we won't get a good player?

Logic please?

What would you rather have if you are a rebuilding franchise, two picks in the first round next year, or 1 pick in the second round this year? On this Broncos board, we are working hard at coming up with reasons to believe we got the better deal. Over on the Seahawks board, they don't have to come up with reasons. They'll have two, first round picks next year. The whole thing hinges on whether or not Big Al turns out to be the real deal. To pretend like there's not a major risk involved here is just silly. On this board, I keep hearing how Alphonso is a first round pick. Well, a bunch of teams in the NFL didn't agree and he dropped into the second round. How far would he have dropped if the Broncos didn't take him at 37?
???

Popcorn Sutton
04-29-2009, 02:22 PM
What would you rather have if you are a rebuilding franchise, two picks in the first round next year, or 1 pick in the second round this year? On this Broncos board, we are working hard at coming up with reasons to believe we got the better deal. Over on the Seahawks board, they don't have to come up with reasons. They'll have two, first round picks next year. The whole thing hinges on whether or not Big Al turns out to be the real deal. To pretend like there's not a major risk involved here is just silly. On this board, I keep hearing how Alphonso is a first round pick. Well, a bunch of teams in the NFL didn't agree and he dropped into the second round. How far would he have dropped if the Broncos didn't take him at 37?
???

You make it sound like we gave up 2 picks next year for this kid. In the end we had 4 picks in the first round over the next 2 years and we basically just took 3 of them this year. Yes, I understand he slid into the early second round but that is probably why they jumped on him.

Mayock had him going to Pittsburgh at 32 so he slid a few spots. Mayocks words were this is an example of the rich getting richer when talking about Alphonso Smith. He was too good to slide much further without any off the field issues. 1st round, 2nd round no matter... he was rated as one of the top cornerbacks in this draft.

outdoor_miner
04-29-2009, 02:25 PM
There'll almost always be somebody who could do better than what you took though.

Say Moreno becomes one of the best backs in the league, having an LT-esque career, but meanwhile Josh Freeman turns out to be the greatest QB the NFL has ever seen.

Does that make Moreno a bad pick?

It's an overdone example, obviously, but I think if you take the approach you've outlines you'll never be satisfied.

If Alphonso Smith becomes a good starting CB in the NFL, then I'm fine with the trade really.

If not, it's a bad trade.

I was just going to make this post.

Furthermore, this doesn't even consider salary. Just tossing out general numbers... If Smith is a very good player at a $1,000,000 salary, but another Player is a great player at $5,000,000, what would you rather have? Wouldn't you rather have Smith @ $1,000,000 plus the other assets that $4,000,000 can buy?

I think for the salary we will pay a 2nd round pick, Smith just needs to be a very good player and this trade will be a success. We can get proven players (not crap-shoots like the draft) for the remaining money we saved.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 02:36 PM
You make it sound like we gave up 2 picks next year for this kid. In the end we had 4 picks in the first round over the next 2 years and we basically just took 3 of them this year. Yes, I understand he slid into the early second round but that is probably why they jumped on him.

Mayock had him going to Pittsburgh at 32 so he slid a few spots. Mayocks words were this is an example of the rich getting richer when talking about Alphonso Smith. He was too good to slide much further without any off the field issues. 1st round, 2nd round no matter... he was rated as one of the top cornerbacks in this draft.

He better be. If it turns out he's not and that pick turns into a top five, there will be some issues. Anyway, I didn't see a big a need for CBs on this team as I see for defensive linemen. I've always believed that if you have great D linemen, your secondary gets instantly better. The reverse is not true, as any Broncos fan can tell you from many years of experience. We have the best CB in the NFL and yet we're still at the bottom of the defensive team stats. There are some absolute beasts coming out at DT next year. If we miss out on one of them for a so-so CB this year, I'm not a happy camper.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 02:56 PM
I'll bet more than a few people around here who have watched football for decades would disagree with that. Just saying things doesn't make them true.

My point was I have watched enough football to know anything can happen. To even target who you think will be the top 10 picks is pretty tough right now.

Some of the players people bitching we won't be able to get now will probably slip to bottom of round one, round 2, or get injured etc. To start thinkng about who we would have drafted, could have drafted, in a draft that is a yr away, hasn't factored in what Jr's will have big yrs, etc, seems just like complaining to me.

The chances of being right saying you know there will be a better CB available with our first round pick next yr has many many chances of not coming true.

If draft is as deep as people say then we should be fine using Bears first round pick saving a ton of money. Then with money saved we can go after players in FA. Add another Dawkins type vet etc, maybe Wilfork who knows.

My point more there are so many scenarios that it's pretty foolish to worry about it right now when we have an exciting yr of football to look forward to.

By all means though worry away.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 02:58 PM
You make it sound like we gave up 2 picks next year for this kid. In the end we had 4 picks in the first round over the next 2 years and we basically just took 3 of them this year. Yes, I understand he slid into the early second round but that is probably why they jumped on him.

Mayock had him going to Pittsburgh at 32 so he slid a few spots. Mayocks words were this is an example of the rich getting richer when talking about Alphonso Smith. He was too good to slide much further without any off the field issues. 1st round, 2nd round no matter... he was rated as one of the top cornerbacks in this draft.

Most had him rated 2nd after Jenkins. Whatever though if the kid plays hard, plays well, I will love him. In the end I forget where they were drafted and only care how they play. I love players that sell out to win. I love players who love being Broncos. I think this kid has a good chance of doing all those things. If he plays well, plays hard, loves being on the Broncos, does well in community, stays out of trouble, then I'd say he was a good addition to the team and worth a first round pick.

Hell was Deltha Oniel worth a first round pick?

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2009, 03:06 PM
Bradford = No chance

That's all I need to know.

Drek
04-29-2009, 03:06 PM
If there are better players than Alphonso Smith in the first round next year, and there likely will be, and any of those players could help the Broncos more than Alphonso Smith will, and that's to be determined, then it was a bad trade.

I think to make that kind of comparison you need to frame it correctly.

Will there be better cornerbacks than Alphonso Smith in next year's class? And if so would they be reasonably available (i.e. with a pick in the 10-20 range).

Assuming an 8-8 team that has actually improved in all but one aspect of the game is a shoe in for a bottom 5 finish isn't rational.

So consider the CB class of next year. I've done a bit of preliminary research on it myself wondering what the thought process in Dove Valley might have been. I got to say, Smith looks like a better prospect than any CB that could enter the draft next year. None are particularly impressive with the kid at Kentucky looking like the best of the bunch.

Next would be need. Where we going to need a quality CB from the next two drafts? Given Goodman and Champ both being 30, Champ having a string of recent injuries, and our nickel corner being UDFA Josh Bell at this point, I think we can safely say a young CB was a near immediate need.

So from that standpoint it was a move for the present and the future, covering our bases at CB when we know we can get talent, instead of hoping for a slider or surprise break out player to emerge before Goodman and/or Champ need to hang it up.

Next year's talent pool should be stronger overall, but it won't be stronger at every single spot. Take WR for instance, I'd be surprised if it has as much depth and quality as this class. Or OC, this was a great OC class.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 03:11 PM
I guarantee you Hawks' fans aren't over on their boards torturing themselves over the second round pick they didn't make.

barryr
04-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Teams that want to win, worry about the now. Those that worry about next year tend to because that's all they ever have to look forward to.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 03:15 PM
I think to make that kind of comparison you need to frame it correctly.

Will there be better cornerbacks than Alphonso Smith in next year's class? And if so would they be reasonably available (i.e. with a pick in the 10-20 range).

Assuming an 8-8 team that has actually improved in all but one aspect of the game is a shoe in for a bottom 5 finish isn't rational.

So consider the CB class of next year. I've done a bit of preliminary research on it myself wondering what the thought process in Dove Valley might have been. I got to say, Smith looks like a better prospect than any CB that could enter the draft next year. None are particularly impressive with the kid at Kentucky looking like the best of the bunch.

Next would be need. Where we going to need a quality CB from the next two drafts? Given Goodman and Champ both being 30, Champ having a string of recent injuries, and our nickel corner being UDFA Josh Bell at this point, I think we can safely say a young CB was a near immediate need.

So from that standpoint it was a move for the present and the future, covering our bases at CB when we know we can get talent, instead of hoping for a slider or surprise break out player to emerge before Goodman and/or Champ need to hang it up.

Next year's talent pool should be stronger overall, but it won't be stronger at every single spot. Take WR for instance, I'd be surprised if it has as much depth and quality as this class. Or OC, this was a great OC class.

Yeah, but it looks damn good for DTs and DEs. You could also argue that Champ's injury problems are a direct result of covering the run more than he should be. Drafting another CB doesn't help him much there. Anyway, there were a lot of good CBs in this draft. I'm sure they could have picked up a solid one with the second or a third round pick. There was no need so crucial that it required the trading of a first round pick, other than perhaps Mack and Xanders got so locked on this one player they just couldn't see past him.

NYBronco
04-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Similar to the Steelers recently pulling back on releasing Foote. They have taken into consideration the potential for mini camp injuries and teams willing to make a trade.

Denver has plenty of opportunities to make additional trades for future draft considerations with respect to our healthy multitude of running backs consisting of Buckhalter, Jordan, Arrington, Hillis, Torain and now Moreno.

chex
04-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Yeah, but it looks damn good for DTs and DEs. You could also argue that Champ's injury problems are a direct result of covering the run more than he should be. Drafting another CB doesn't help him much there. Anyway, there were a lot of good CBs in this draft. I'm sure they could have picked up a solid one with the second or a third round pick. There was no need so crucial that it required the trading of a first round pick, other than perhaps Mack and Xanders got so locked on this one player they just couldn't see past him.

If next year is going to be deep in DL, then there shouldn't be any worries. They all won't go before wherever we pick in round 1, and now instead of buying a 3rd round talent for the line, we can use 1st and/or 2nd round equity on him. McDaniels even said we still have a full draft for next year.

The way I look at it, Smith was considered the top CB in some circles, and where he wasn't, he was a close second. Could we say right now that we could have drafted any DL in the 2nd round or later that we could say the same thing about? I want the guys at or near the top of where they play. I don't want a 3rd round DT because we need a DT, and it's not like we're loaded at the corners either.

barryr
04-29-2009, 03:46 PM
I guess we're to assume people think all top 15 players drafted in any draft all become great players? Have they not been following the NFL beyond this season? Lucky if half become really good players, much less "great."

Rock Chalk
04-29-2009, 03:49 PM
One season at a time folks.

Pony Boy
04-29-2009, 04:09 PM
I hope we have a shot a Gerald McCoy

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 04:47 PM
If next year is going to be deep in DL, then there shouldn't be any worries. They all won't go before wherever we pick in round 1, and now instead of buying a 3rd round talent for the line, we can use 1st and/or 2nd round equity on him. McDaniels even said we still have a full draft for next year.

The way I look at it, Smith was considered the top CB in some circles, and where he wasn't, he was a close second. Could we say right now that we could have drafted any DL in the 2nd round or later that we could say the same thing about? I want the guys at or near the top of where they play. I don't want a 3rd round DT because we need a DT, and it's not like we're loaded at the corners either.

In that case, what you're saying is we'll trade a top tier DT next year (which is what will be available next year) for a top tier CB this year. And we'll settle for a lesser quality DT next year. Anyway, I'm done. In the final analysis Mac took next year's draft and gambled it on what he can do this year. If it blows up in his face, he might not be the one making the picks next year.

Drek
04-29-2009, 05:03 PM
Yeah, but it looks damn good for DTs and DEs. You could also argue that Champ's injury problems are a direct result of covering the run more than he should be. Drafting another CB doesn't help him much there. Anyway, there were a lot of good CBs in this draft. I'm sure they could have picked up a solid one with the second or a third round pick. There was no need so crucial that it required the trading of a first round pick, other than perhaps Mack and Xanders got so locked on this one player they just couldn't see past him.

Unless they thought he was head and shoulders above the guys still on the board, which they apparently did since they've said they considered him the best CB in this draft class.

And we're assuming that the run D will now be a steady work in progress towards improvement. It should theoretically be around league average when we ask Smith to step in as a full time starter. We can't undo the years taken off Champ's career from our horrible run D but we can make sure we're prepared to deal with it when reality comes knocking.

Popps
04-29-2009, 05:15 PM
Just asking a logical question here about next year's draft.

Everyone is b****ing about possibly trading out of a high first round draft pick next year because they say next year's draft will be much stronger.

Isn't the benefit of a "strong draft" the fact that you have lots of great players all the way through the first round (and even into the second round), and not just in the top 10?

So what gives? Aren't there quite a few people around here talking about the strength of next year's draft, but then saying we have to have a high pick or we won't get a good player?

Logic please?

No need to correct you. You're absolutely right.

In fact, the staff basically gave us that info, if indirectly.

They said they had about 100 players on their board and didn't want to mess with many others. So, they used highly targeted drafting and extra picks to move around and pick up 10 strong players to start developing NOW, as opposed to waiting.

If next year is as deep as people say, we'll get great value in rounds 1 and 2, anyway.

TheChamp24
04-30-2009, 06:17 AM
The thing is, guys that will be in next year, would've been picked ahead of guys this year. Taylor Mays, Eric Berry, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Cody, Spikes, etc.
Also, take into consideration how some teams have won Super Bowls. They win by disrupting the line of scrimmage. As we have seen, even a great CB can't cover someone for 10 seconds. I think that is what is bothering people, that it won't matter how good Smith is if we can't get a pass rush.

cmhargrove
04-30-2009, 07:01 AM
The thing is, guys that will be in next year, would've been picked ahead of guys this year. Taylor Mays, Eric Berry, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Cody, Spikes, etc.
Also, take into consideration how some teams have won Super Bowls. They win by disrupting the line of scrimmage. As we have seen, even a great CB can't cover someone for 10 seconds. I think that is what is bothering people, that it won't matter how good Smith is if we can't get a pass rush.

I'm not saying our problems are fixed by any means, but just playing tight man or bump and run coverage on third downs instead of the infamous 7-12 yard cushion will help our team immediately. I mean seriously - I don't know how Slowik gets paid. He has no balls whatsoever.

Just being a little more aggressive on the line (with the players we have), and being more disciplined on the LB corps (with the players we already had), would have improved us drastically.

Does anyone here honestly believe Webster should have been MLB over Spencer Larsen? Larsen had some rookie mistakes, but he showed me much more in the Atlanta game than I have ever seen from Webster.

As a coach, would you have Jarvis Moss trying to bull rush on third downs? Or, would you have used a stunt or twist that worked effectively for him (against the Dallas Cowboys line) in the preseason?

Our defensive coaching was crap last year - all of it.

Right now, we have as much talent on our line as Miami did last year. They made it to the playoffs because of good coaching and solid effort. There is absolutely no reason we can't do the same. Absolutely none. We need good coaching and discipline. We'll add more "defensive stars" as we can.