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Chris
04-29-2009, 09:44 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4104795

McDaniels building Foxborough West?

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Steam rises from the snowy concrete, and five dozen weary men board a bus. It figures that Josh McDaniels' first minicamp would start in a near blizzard, the worst of the season. From maelstrom to snowstorm. A couple of days ago, it was 70 degrees in the foothills. But that's the thing about Denver in the spring -- you never know what you're going to get.

McDaniels walks out of the Broncos' indoor practice facility, which, on this day, doubles as an afternoon hangout for a local girls' lacrosse team. A tinsel-mouthed teenager acts as if she has just seen one of the Jonas Brothers, nudges her friend and gushes, "That's the coach! That's the coach!"

The people of Denver don't know what to make of McDaniels yet. Maybe they'll never know. His first 3 months on the job have, at the very least, left an entire league buzzing. The rift between the new coach and Pro Bowl quarterback Jay Cutler was the biggest news of the NFL offseason, and McDaniels' hard-line stance has led critics to label him stubborn and unwavering. When the Broncos traded their franchise face to Chicago earlier this month, it seemed as if two careers would forever be tied to what some have boiled down to misunderstandings between a couple of young men.

And make no mistake, the new coach looks young. If he didn't have the 5-o'clock shadow covering half of his baby face, didn't have the stern look of a man racing against time, McDaniels, in his blue warm-ups, could pass for a ball boy. He just turned 33. He is in the process of scrapping an offense that finished near the top of the NFL, overhauling a defense that hovered at the bottom and trying to win over a fan base that has sold out home games since John Elway was in Pop Warner.

It could all implode and leave some high-placed execs in Denver looking very bad.

By all outside appearances, McDaniels isn't sweating it. Colleagues say he's a young Bill Belichick, a methodical offensive whiz ensconced in the Patriots way, which is the coach's way or the highway. Friends say he's the spitting image of his father, Thom McDaniels, a nurturing man who is a legend in Ohio high school coaching circles.

In the Rockies, where the clouds are swirling, Josh McDaniels will need to be both.

"Look, all I want to do is win," McDaniels says. "And I want to try and do the things I believe in. So if sticking to your guns when you believe in something is being [stubborn], then I guess that's what I would fall into. I think all good coaches are stubborn in certain areas, and it comes from being confident that what you're saying is the right thing to do. I don't think I'd be in this position or have this job if I didn't have that confidence."

The little general

The thing is, McDaniels has rarely walked into a situation in which he appeared at first blush, hands-down, to be the right man for the job. In high school at Canton McKinley, he was called on to be the starting quarterback, all 5-foot-8 and 155 pounds of him. (Looking back, McKinley folks say those proportions were exaggerated.) In huddles, the offensive linemen, the receivers, well, just about everybody loomed over him.
Josh McDaniels
McDaniels has faced lots of questions about the Broncos' draft selections.

"It was funny. He was almost like a Rudy type of guy," says Broncos defensive end Kenny Peterson, a teammate at McKinley, which is just a few tosses from the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

"But he commanded respect. When Josh got in the huddle, guys listened because he was definitely the coach on the field."

The biggest game of McDaniels' career was profiled in Sports Illustrated in 1994 because it was the 100th meeting in a storied rivalry between McKinley and Massillon. The game went to overtime. The stadium was packed. McDaniels, who also served as the team's place-kicker, lined up for an extra-point attempt. The kick sailed wide right.

According to coach Thom McDaniels, a reporter asked Josh what it felt like to be the guy who cost his team the game.

"He answered that he suspected God must've chosen him to be the guy that cost his team the game because he was strong enough to handle it," Thom says. "I was blown away that a high school senior could handle it that way."

Two weeks later, the teams met in the playoffs. McKinley was trailing 20-19 in the fourth quarter when McDaniels hit Mark Thewes with a game-winning 46-yard touchdown pass.

McDaniels recently hired Thewes, still one of his best friends, to be the Broncos' assistant to the head coach.

Coach McD's McKinley boys look after each other, Peterson says, even after old teammates go on to much bigger things. At first, it seemed as if Josh would be happy being a successful high school coach just like his dad. He slept with a football from the time he was 5 and tagged along with Thom until he was old enough to wear the Bulldogs' red and black. He picked up his dad's mannerisms -- both men stress their points by pinching their thumb and finger together -- and developed his easy-going nature.

A Thom McDaniels practice was disciplined but loose, high-energy yet controlled and meticulous. The elder McDaniels took great joy in doing stretching exercises. So does Josh.

McDaniels played football at John Carroll University, then parlayed his dad's connections -- and a friendship with Nick Saban -- to land an interview for a graduate assistant job at Michigan State. On the ride to East Lansing, Mich., the elder McDaniels told his son he was now on his own.

"This is where your dad's influence ends," Thom recalls telling Josh. "I can't do anything more for you. What you become will be determined by what you do."

Getting a chance

As a young man in flux, in between Michigan State and the next chance, Josh McDaniels sold plastics in Cleveland. He was good at his job, earning a decent wage. Then New England called and offered a low-paying scouting gig, and McDaniels jumped.
Josh McDaniels
New England coach Bill Belichick unofficially elevated McDaniels to offensive coordinator in 2005, when McDaniels was just 29.

He went from personnel assistant to defensive coaching assistant to quarterbacks coach in 2004. In his first year with Tom Brady, the future MVP produced the third-highest passer rating in team history (92.6). And in 2005, Belichick quietly elevated McDaniels to offensive coordinator after the departure of Charlie Weis. There was speculation that Belichick didn't make the promotion public that year because he wanted to shield his young playcaller, who was just 29.

McDaniels' unofficial debut as offensive coordinator came in a nationally televised Thursday night game against the Oakland Raiders, and the Patriots scored 30 points. He says he never really felt the nerves that night and called the experience "exhilarating."

The quarterbacks in the meeting room knew two things about McDaniels -- that he was a huge "CSI" fan, had to tape it every week, and that he always came prepared. His offense is complex -- McDaniels is known to add schemes each week of the season -- and his quarterbacks are expected to become one with their playbooks. McDaniels is tight with all of his quarterbacks and plays to their strengths.

"I was actually older than him, but I respected him a great deal," says Jim Miller, a backup quarterback for the Patriots in 2004. "I think he's an extremely bright coach who wanted to get better at his craft. He was basically a sponge in what he was learning from Bill Belichick.

"He's not a guy that's going to butt heads just to butt heads. Everything is well thought out. He's flexible and listens to feedback from his players."

McDaniels won three Super Bowl rings, but his defining moment might have come this past season when Brady was writhing in pain on the grass in Foxborough, out for the season with a serious knee injury.

McDaniels huddled the offense together on the sideline and looked into each player's eyes.

We're going to be OK.

"As a player, that was very comforting," says former New England receiver Jabar Gaffney, who joined Denver in the offseason. "He just had that look in his eyes, and we felt a lot better about ourselves.

"He said, 'Matt [Cassel] is going to go in there, and he's going to be fine. And we were."

Before that surreal afternoon in early September, Cassel had done little to evoke confidence from the masses at Gillette Stadium. His preseason was disastrous. Rumors swirled that he might get cut. McDaniels brought the young quarterback along, through rough patches in San Diego and high points in Miami, and the Patriots finished 11-5.

Six months later, the AFC landscape changed again. And Cassel was at the center of it.

The Cutler saga
Jay Cutler
The Cutler era in Denver is over. He's in Chicago. But questions likely will follow both men.

There are some who wonder whether if things had been different, if egos weren't bruised and meetings hadn't been held with agents and reinforcements, maybe McDaniels and Cutler could've hit it off. They are both very close to their fathers; both had to prove themselves to naysayers; and both, at young ages, were asked to fill very big shoes.

A handful of people who were willing to talk about Cutler all said he's a team player, a man who wants to win, a tireless worker who hated being away from his friends as they started offseason conditioning in Denver without him. Trey Holloway, a former teammate from Vanderbilt, relayed a story about how the Commodores squad was depleted on the offensive line one year, how the coaches asked Holloway to switch over from defense, how he refused and wanted to quit the team. It took a call from Cutler to persuade him to move to center. All he had to say was: Hey, we need you. That's how much respect Cutler commanded from his team.

Another Cutler endorsement: He was beyond bummed during the Denver stalemate, Vanderbilt strength and conditioning coach John Sisk says. But he still managed to work out religiously at his alma mater. He was lifting weights on April 2, the day he got the call that he was free from Denver.

"He was smiling and high-fiving all the guys," Sisk says. "He had to go buy a suit because he was going to Chicago the next day. He left during a tornado warning."

The dirty details of the McDaniels-Cutler relationship, albeit brief, made great copy in a normally slow patch of the offseason. The Broncos inquired about trading Cutler for Cassel; Cutler, who threw for 4,526 yards in 2008, was stunned and felt betrayed. The next few weeks played out like a soap opera.

Observers say McDaniels, who's two decades younger than predecessor Mike Shanahan, ultimately was going to be tested and had to show who was in command in Dove Valley. Nobody knew the test would come so early and with a player so big.
Josh McDaniel
McDaniels, then New England's offensive coordinator, talks with Tom Brady during Super Bowl XLII against the New York Giants in February 2008.

Thom McDaniels won't speculate on whether his son dug his cleats in too hard. He talks to Josh nearly every day -- as does his mom -- and has become his sounding board. Thom says the relationship between a quarterback and coach is very important, sort of like a husband and wife.

"It's not shocking to me that he would consider working with a guy he already had a relationship with as opposed to a guy he didn't have a relationship with," Thom McDaniels says.

"I've often wondered this, from a distance," he adds. "If [Josh] wasn't 33, and he hadn't worked for Belichick, would people have the same impression of that whole scenario?"

A view from the seats

Barrel Man says good riddance. For nearly 30 years, he ran up and down the steps at Denver home games, wearing nothing but the barrel, cheering, always, for his beloved Broncos.

As one of the NFL's most recognizable superfans, Tim McKernan has loved John Elway, held his breath for Bubby Brister and made huge plans for Jay Cutler. Now, Barrel Man eyes the Broncos' quarterback race, between two great unknowns in Kyle Orton and Chris Simms, and says he's glad Cutler is gone.

"He was going to end up being a cancer in the locker room," McKernan says. "I liked the kid when he came in. I thought he was going to be a great one. I still think he might be. But after his first year, I was getting very tired of some of his statements on how good he was.
Josh McDaniels
McDaniels tosses his son, Jack, as his wife, Laura, watches after an afternoon session of the Patriots' summer camp in 2006. The McDaniels also have a daughter, Maddie.

"Yes, he has a strong arm. But I never saw Jay throw a 70-yard in-air touchdown pass across the field like Elway did. He doesn't have that sixth sense Elway had. To compare himself, it was a mistake in Denver. Because Elway's thought of almost as if he's Jesus' little brother."

Jeff Legwold, a longtime Broncos beat writer for the Rocky Mountain News, says the majority of Denver fans, like Barrel Man, have tended to side with the team on the Cutler issue. It's somewhat surprising, but then again, the past five months have been full of shockers. Legwold was the only writer at the Broncos' facility on Dec. 30, the day Shanahan was fired. Nobody really thought it would happen.

Shanahan had been head coach for 14 years, had won two Super Bowls and had consistently saved Denver from embarrassment. He won at least seven games in all but one season and was always in the playoff mix. But then came the 8-5 season that spiraled down to three straight losses and a blowout at San Diego.

And now, what should Broncos fans expect?

"I'm getting a real good feeling toward [McDaniels]," McKernan says. "He's very sure of himself. He's involved with the team. He gets out there, and he's not standing on the sidelines letting the coaches do all the coaching."

The Belichick way?

No, McDaniels will not stand by and let others do all the coaching. He moves briskly from one end of the field to the other, his eyes almost always fixed on the quarterback. When something goes awry, he throws his hands up and says, "Do it again!"
Josh McDaniels
McDaniels already has left his mark.

Veterans and media types confirm it: This first minicamp was far more spirited than those in the past.

McDaniels, who has a four-year, $8 million deal, is taking the moribund defense and switching to a 3-4, a la Belichick. His free-agency and draft moves have puzzled Broncos fans. They wonder why he has enough running backs to start a soccer team and why Denver didn't move up this past weekend, with two first-round picks, to secure USC quarterback Mark Sanchez.

"He knows what he's doing," says Broncos running back LaMont Jordan, who played for McDaniels in New England.

"When I first became a free agent this offseason, my first goal was to get back to New England. When I found out they wouldn't be bringing me back, once Josh got the head-coach job, I said, 'I want to go play for Josh.' I wanted to go back to the [Patriots] locker room. The attitude in that building, the way that organization was run I knew Josh would bring a lot of similarities from New England. That's something I wanted to be part of."

These will not be Shanahan's Broncos. In one of his first meetings with the team, McDaniels went over the offense's gawdy numbers, how the Broncos had racked up more yards than just about anybody else in the NFL, how it didn't really matter because they finished in the middle of the pack in scoring.

On some thinner-skinned teams, maybe this would've angered some people. But tight end Daniel Graham said it just motivated the team to dive harder into the new playbooks. Graham, it should be noted, played for McDaniels in New England. So did Lonie Paxton, Gaffney and a handful of other free-agent acquisitions. It has led some to wonder whether Denver will become Foxborough West.

McDaniels, much like his mentor, isn't tipping his hand.

"Here's what I'll tell you," McDaniels says. "My demeanor, the way I am with people, how I go about my daily business? That's all totally me. And my philosophy on how to win? Why would I want to change from what I learned and was taught? It was so successful."

Does he know what he has gotten himself into? Or what he might already have lost?

McDaniels doesn't have time to think about it. He gets on the bus outside the practice facility and heads down the hill to his office. The sun is out, and the thaw has begun.

Forgive me for the pic blurbs. I'm in a rush at work.

Smiling Assassin27
04-29-2009, 09:57 AM
We're going to be OK...

Gcver2ver3
04-29-2009, 09:58 AM
long read...but not a bad piece...

yerner
04-29-2009, 10:00 AM
I hope he wins. Maybe it will make it easier to read stories about this dork. I admit it. Something about the guy just bothers me. No rational reason for it.

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:05 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

SoDak Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:05 AM
intestering article...well written.

SoDak Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:06 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

like it or not his offenses have been much more productive and yes, better then the Broncos in recent years. I liked that the camp was much more energized and the guys know they have to bust their butts.

TheDave
04-29-2009, 10:08 AM
I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades my QB.

I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades next years #1 for an undersized DB

I want to like this kid, I really do...

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:10 AM
like it or not his offenses have been much more productive and yes, better then the Broncos in recent years. I liked that the camp was much more energized and the guys know they have to bust their butts.

he walked into a Tom Brady led offense with Pioli picking the players for him. You cannot compare a rebuilding effort to a super bowl team. McDaniels had little, if anything to do with building that team. While he was a waterboy, the exact same genius things were being said about Charlie Weis.

If you are going to compare apples to apples, compare the Broncos super bowl teams with vet stars all over the place to the pats offenses. This Broncos team had yet to mature and no defensive or ST help.

Natedogg
04-29-2009, 10:11 AM
Barrel man is anti cutler. Lol.

mellow mood
04-29-2009, 10:12 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan.

i would be worried if he didn't think that.

i am very happy he wants to improve all facets of our game, including our offense.

if he does in turn run a better offense than shanny, look out cause we're going to do great things

kamakazi_kal
04-29-2009, 10:12 AM
Not a bad read ..... still smells of PR spin to improve his image.

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:13 AM
i would be worried if he didn't think that.

i am very happy he wants to improve all facets of our game, including our offense.

if he does in turn run a better offense than shanny, look out cause we're going to do great things

I can understand that line of thinking, but in my estimation, he does not understand what went wrong with this team last year if he believes the offense was the culprit.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:14 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/lexlucid/images-1.jpg

dbfan21
04-29-2009, 10:14 AM
That was a great article. It's pretty cool to learn more about coach. Until we really watch a full season of games, he's still a bit of a mystery. This article shed some pretty good light on things!

Popps
04-29-2009, 10:16 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan.

Yea, except the little detail that he has.

I'm with you, though... I prefer my coaches to be timid and unconfident.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:21 AM
Yea, except the little detail that he has.

I'm with you, though... I prefer my coaches to be timid and unconfident.

Not really. For all the points they had, in the end, he didnt have the running game. Shanahan was smart enough to see the value of balance. Its about equipping yourself with an offense that can get it done in the post season, and not all about scoring 50 points against a 1-15 Miami team. Plus, Denver scored over 500 points as a team that hung its hat on the run, which uses up more of the clock. Ill take Denvers offenses of the late 90s over anything McDaniels has put out there in a heartbeat.

Paladin
04-29-2009, 10:23 AM
Popps: LOL!!!!


I think he can run an O better than Shanahan did the past couple off years. He's done it. Further, Shanahan's O produced a lot of yards, and few points. I think the O did have some holes and I believe McD has the opportunity to improve it.

Popps
04-29-2009, 10:24 AM
Not really. For all the points they had, in the end, he didnt have the running game. Shanahan was smart enough to see the value of balance. Its about equipping yourself with an offense that can get it done in the post season, and not all about scoring 50 points against a 1-15 Miami team. Plus, Denver scored over 500 points as a team that hung its hat on the run, which uses up more of the clock. Ill take Denvers offenses of the late 90s over anything McDaniels has put out there in a heartbeat.

Look, Shanahan was an offensive genius. I watched him his entire career. Point being, there's nothing wrong with our new head coach coming in and noticing the same thing all the fans noticed.... fancy passing numbers, but no points.

All filler and no killer.

He wants to improve that, and I hope he does.

Paladin
04-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Key words: Late 90's

scttgrd
04-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Ok, so we are going to see all the fluff and PR stories coming out to clean up McDaniels image. The only thing that will really work is wins. Shanny was fired for 8-8, McDaniels needs to do better than that. He has been given all the tools he needs to build his roster, now 9-7 or better is the goal.

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-29-2009, 10:27 AM
he walked into a Tom Brady led offense with Pioli picking the players for him. You cannot compare a rebuilding effort to a super bowl team. McDaniels had little, if anything to do with building that team. While he was a waterboy, the exact same genius things were being said about Charlie Weis.

Yeah, history says that winning (and returning to the playoffs) with a Super Bowl team is WAY HARDER than simply re-building a team! ;)

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

ummm..........uhhh.... yeah...........ummmm.........


He better think he can run a better offense than what we had last year. it wasn't very good my man. you make a good point about defense and all, but still, 16th in scoring is 16th in scoring. The vermiel chiefs had bad defenses too and they did better than 16th in scoring.


also, considering he led THE GREATEST OFFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL already in his career, I imagine thinking he could get in the top 15 isn't something that should really bother you.

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:28 AM
Look, Shanahan was an offensive genius. I watched him his entire career. Point being, there's nothing wrong with our new head coach coming in and noticing the same thing all the fans noticed.... fancy passing numbers, but no points.

All filler and no killer.

He wants to improve that, and I hope he does.

Popps, do you really think that the yards meant nothing, or are you willing to admit that the yards mean plenty, but that field possession and lack of possessions was to blame for the disparity in points/yards? The run game was phenomenal last year considering the injuries and youth across the board, you are once again turning one statistic into your entire argument rather than acknowledging the context surrounding the facts.

Garcia Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:29 AM
Interesting. Peterson played ball with the coach in high school.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:29 AM
ummm..........uhhh.... yeah...........ummmm.........


He better think he can run a better offense than what we had last year. it wasn't very good my man. you make a good point about defense and all, but still, 16th in scoring is 16th in scoring. The vermiel chiefs had bad defenses too and they did better than 16th in scoring.


also, considering he led THE GREATEST OFFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL already in his career, I imagine thinking he could get in the top 15 isn't something that should really bother you.


It didnt have enough balance to be called that. In the end, it was exposed for its lack of balance. Sorry. Not the greatest offense in history.

no-pseudo-fan
04-29-2009, 10:31 AM
We will win next year, and we will surprise alot of people for no other reason than............Nobody outside of Denver thinks we can.

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:31 AM
ummm..........uhhh.... yeah...........ummmm.........


He better think he can run a better offense than what we had last year. it wasn't very good my man. you make a good point about defense and all, but still, 16th in scoring is 16th in scoring. The vermiel chiefs had bad defenses too and they did better than 16th in scoring.


also, considering he led THE GREATEST OFFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL already in his career, I imagine thinking he could get in the top 15 isn't something that should really bother you.

It's truly amusing to watch people think that their new coach was really the reason for the Pats successes, and that it wasn't in actuality Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Watched Jets fans do it with Mangini, watched Notre Dame fans do it with Charlie Weis. Watched Browns fans swear by Romeo Crennel.

I understand the optimism, and I hate to break it to you, but here goes- the patriots were winning well before McDaniels ever got there, and they will continue to win without him. If you think that going 11-5 with what was a 16-0 team is that impressive, I have a bridge to sell you

dbfan4life
04-29-2009, 10:32 AM
I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades my QB.

I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades next years #1 for an undersized DB

I want to like this kid, I really do...

I'm with you. I did like that article, though. Although, I'm not sure I can call him a kid - he's only like 6 months older than me!

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Yeah, history says that winning (and returning to the playoffs) with a Super Bowl team is WAY HARDER than simply re-building a team! ;)

haha, no kidding Ha!

Garcia Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:36 AM
"Barrel Man says good riddance. For nearly 30 years, he ran up and down the steps at Denver home games, wearing nothing but the barrel, cheering, always, for his beloved Broncos.

As one of the NFL's most recognizable superfans, Tim McKernan has loved John Elway, held his breath for Bubby Brister and made huge plans for Jay Cutler. Now, Barrel Man eyes the Broncos' quarterback race, between two great unknowns in Kyle Orton and Chris Simms, and says he's glad Cutler is gone."

Barrel Man even says good riddance to Chicago Barbie.

Garcia Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:37 AM
"The Broncos inquired about trading Cutler for Cassel; Cutler, who threw for 4,526 yards in 2008, was stunned and felt betrayed."

This is another ESPN lie.

lostknight
04-29-2009, 10:38 AM
Look the reality is that we hired McDaniels to be a HC. What he has become is a HC and a GM. That's problematic. If we giving him more power, then he needs to be held responsible for the consequences. He wins, or he is gone.

Paladin
04-29-2009, 10:38 AM
Popps, do you really think that the yards meant nothing, or are you willing to admit that the yards mean plenty, but that field possession and lack of possessions was to blame for the disparity in points/yards? The run game was phenomenal last year considering the injuries and youth across the board, you are once again turning one statistic into your entire argument rather than acknowledging the context surrounding the facts.

The run game disappeared inside the twenty. Yards mean not much if it does not end in scores. The O couldn't help the D out at all. And when the chips were down, I think everyone just knew that the O wouldn't get it done. How about Buffalo, Carolina, and, gosh the ints in the Faider game? How many int were there in the red zone?

The O was NOT as good as you would like to think it was......

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 10:39 AM
Zzzzzzoooooooommggggg..wez A Becoming The Cheatriots West Blarhghghghghh Whate Wille Wes Eva Do????

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 10:40 AM
Also, what was that stat about the denver offense after the first 3 games of the season? Wasn't it very pedestrian?

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:41 AM
It's truly amusing to watch people think that their new coach was really the reason for the Pats successes, and that it wasn't in actuality Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Watched Jets fans do it with Mangini, watched Notre Dame fans do it with Charlie Weis. Watched Browns fans swear by Romeo Crennel.

I understand the optimism, and I hate to break it to you, but here goes- the patriots were winning well before McDaniels ever got there, and they will continue to win without him. If you think that going 11-5 with what was a 16-0 team is that impressive, I have a bridge to sell you

wow. You really don't think the offensive coordinator has anything to do with the offensive calls? You really think 11-5 isn't impressive with a qb that hadn't played since high school.

Cassel had better stats than Cutler last year. SO Cutler isn't impressive because he had a Shanny coached team?

you are living in another realm my friend. I am not sold on Mcd myself, but I am also not incredibly stupid so we will probably disagree.

but going 11-5 with Matt Cassel is THE REASON he is our coach. That is what impressed Bowlen.

Shanny was the o coordinater for the 49ers. That's like saying Shanny was just running Bill walsh's team, look how unsuccessful Siefert was after he left SF...

If you don't think that running the number one offense in the history of the nfl is at least a good resume builder or winning 11 games with a guy who has less experience than a rookie, than you are doomed to hate these next few years.

wow. Just wow. your post saddens me.

Paladin
04-29-2009, 10:41 AM
Look the reality is that we hired McDaniels to be a HC. What he has become is a HC and a GM. That's problematic. If we giving him more power, then he needs to be held responsible for the consequences. He wins, or he is gone.

Like you do the firing? "GONE"? Really? Who gets to decide that?

lex
04-29-2009, 10:43 AM
Zzzzzzoooooooommggggg..wez A Becoming The Cheatriots West Blarhghghghghh Whate Wille Wes Eva Do????

If you would keep Bill Simmons cock out of your mouth, I dont think his semen would be in your brain.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 10:43 AM
On a side note. Coach and I have something in common. We both missed an extra point in OT that lost our high school's biggest game of the year. I still hear about my stupid kick 12 years later. I wonder if he does.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 10:44 AM
If you would keep Bill Simmons cock out of your mouth, I dont think his semen would be in your brain.

Your insults often have fellatio imagery, are you trying to tell us something? Don't you have another meaningless, non thought provoking thread to start?

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:45 AM
It didnt have enough balance to be called that. In the end, it was exposed for its lack of balance. Sorry. Not the greatest offense in history.

It had a lot of balance. If that ball was intercepted in the sb we wouldn't even be debating this. This debate has come up lot about MCD being a pass happy guy and has been dispelled.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:46 AM
Your insults often have fellatio imagery, are you trying to tell us something? Don't you have another meaningless, non thought provoking thread to start?


I am telling you something. If you continue your infatuation, youre going to end up getting hurt.

Paladin
04-29-2009, 10:47 AM
Everybody talks about the 4500 yards. How many of thos yards were due to the ability of the recievers to get YAC? Does a dump off pass that goes for 60 yards because the RB is quick and is able to get past the LBs count as QB stats or RB stats? Think about that for a moment......

The firs three games of the year were among the most powerful O games the Broncos ever had. After that, they were lucky to be average.......

SoDak Bronco
04-29-2009, 10:47 AM
On a side note. Coach and I have something in common. We both missed an extra point in OT that lost our high school's biggest game of the year. I still hear about my stupid kick 12 years later. I wonder if he does.

Did you go on to beat them in the playoffs? They got the one that counted, so he probably escaped some comments with that win.

Dagmar
04-29-2009, 10:50 AM
CSI fan eh?

http://neswsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/csi-larry-johnson.JPG

Smiling Assassin27
04-29-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.


Funny, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. I'm GLAD he thinks he can surpass what Shanahan did with this offense, because there is definite room for improvement. If we had a coach that DIDN'T think he could make this team better, what the hell's he taking the job for?

16th in the league in scoring is mediocre at best. Blame it on the defense (hell, jay cutler did..) or anything else you want, but the bottom line is that the offense did not generate points, despite generating yards. McD's 'total team' concept should help this, IMO.

Inkana7
04-29-2009, 10:52 AM
Also, what was that stat about the denver offense after the first 3 games of the season? Wasn't it very pedestrian?

24th in the league.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:53 AM
It had a lot of balance. If that ball was intercepted in the sb we wouldn't even be debating this. This debate has come up lot about MCD being a pass happy guy and has been dispelled.

No, they relied heavily on the pass to do their heavy lifting. Their running game was token for the most part. Instead of beating Miami 55-10, they should have cultivated a running game so they would have balance and it would help them against the Giants. But that team had little to no commitment to the run and it ended up costing them. That team averaged, what, 35ish points a game on the season? In the SB they only got half of that. When was the last time a Shanahan team had his offense halfed in the SB, including his year in SF? Every Shanahan coached team scored over 30 points in every SB.

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:53 AM
24th in the league.

ouch!

at least we had balance!

colonelbeef
04-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Funny, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. I'm GLAD he thinks he can surpass what Shanahan did with this offense, because there is definite room for improvement. If we had a coach that DIDN'T think he could make this team better, what the hell's he taking the job for?

16th in the league in scoring is mediocre at best. Blame it on the defense (hell, jay cutler did..) or anything else you want, but the bottom line is that the offense did not generate points, despite generating yards. McD's 'total team' concept should help this, IMO.

I just think that it points to a complete misunderstanding of the problems with the 2008 Broncos. Offense was not the problem, never was. Better field position and a few more turnovers= many more TD's and less missed kicks by a choking kicker.

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:55 AM
No, they relied heavily on the pass to do their heavy lifting. Their running game was token for the most part. Instead of beating Miami 55-10, they should have cultivated a running game so they would have balance and it would help them against the Giants. But that team had little to no commitment to the run and it ended up costing them.

well, they did win 18 games so I guess that maybe some stupid people might think that they were good. oh, and they also finished with the number 1 scoring offense of all time. oh and they set records for td's.
but yeah, they should have ran it more, maybe than they would have won 19 games.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:56 AM
ouch!

at least we had balance!

Thats just it. They didnt have balance. Shanahan turned his back on what worked and became pass happy himself.

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:56 AM
I just think that it points to a complete misunderstanding of the problems with the 2008 Broncos. Offense was not the problem, never was. Better field position and a few more turnovers= many more TD's and less missed kicks by a choking kicker.

um....offensive turnovers? do those hurt the offense. Just wondering. your football knowledge far exceeds mine. let me know.

OABB
04-29-2009, 10:57 AM
Thats just it. They didnt have balance. Shanahan turned his back on what worked and became pass happy himself.

true to some degree, but the balance missing was an average o being unbalanced by a dismal d. that's why we never won much. Mcd is allready addressing the D far more than shanny would have. You can pass all day for all I care if you can get off the field on third down.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Did you go on to beat them in the playoffs? They got the one that counted, so he probably escaped some comments with that win.

No, my missed kick actually effectively ended our season. It actually wasn't even my fault. I dont know if they still do this in HS football, but we actually kicked the ball off a small block that was sloped in the back. The field was REALLY muddy that day and, after a high snap, the holder quickly brought the ball down, but it slipped off the end of the block and sunk in the mud. So i kicked it as hard as I could, but since the ball was in the mud and behind the block, it never got all that far off the ground. But in the stands, you wouldnt have seen any of that, so it looked like i just missed it.

Oh well, it never actually bothered me much. It does make for a good story now though.

lex
04-29-2009, 10:59 AM
He is in the process of scrapping an offense that finished near the top of the NFL, overhauling a defense that hovered at the bottom and trying to win over a fan base that has sold out home games since John Elway was in Pop Warner.

It could all implode and leave some high-placed execs in Denver looking very bad.


I dont think Ive seen anyone mention this part of the article. Its interesting to see this kind of mention of this. Pat better be worried.

outdoor_miner
04-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I can't believe anyone could consider our offense last year elite. They were elite for three games, and then came crashing back down to earth. I spent the whole second half of the year hoping we would come anywhere near the success we had to start the year. It never happened. Even in the games we won, the offense never dominated, except for brief stretches (end of the Cleveland Game). They put up a ton of yards because of their aggressive playcalling and decision making (which also led to a lot of turnovers), but I can't believe that anyone thought we were anywhere in the neighborhood of the best offense in the league after the first 3 games.

Mike Lombardi had a pretty good point about this... He wasn't talking specifically about the Broncos, but he said that the first several games of a year allowed teams with new schemes to look better than they were. They can take other teams by surprise because they are throwing out new looks that the other teams had no film on. But as the season wears on, this advantage goes away. Gimics give way to talent and execution. This pretty much fits the 2008 Broncos to a "T". Started off with our new pass-heavy scheme (which Cutler admitted they stole from the Patriots) and took some teams by surprise. But then, once the middle of the season came around, and we no longer had the element of surprise to fall back on, we were exposed as an above average offense. That's it.

And while I agree that our defense was the most horrendously awful piece of crap I have ever witnessed in my 25+ years as a Bronco fan, this should not effect an "elite" offense like it did to ours. Cutler and company were not able to elevate the team, which is what an elite offense would do. Just like elite defenses carry poor offenses far into the playoffs.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 11:02 AM
I am telling you something. If you continue your infatuation, youre going to end up getting hurt.

You know who you remind me of? Farva from Super Troopers. You're overbearing, not all that funny (though funny to laugh AT), easy to tease, have some strange sexual humor issues, and think youre a lot smarter and intimidating than you actually are. Plus, you think your insults and jokes are biting (like farva putting the soap in the rookie's cup) but they really are juvenile and uncreative. You are Farva.

Smiling Assassin27
04-29-2009, 11:02 AM
I just think that it points to a complete misunderstanding of the problems with the 2008 Broncos. Offense was not the problem, never was. Better field position and a few more turnovers= many more TD's and less missed kicks by a choking kicker.


Just because McD doesn't specifically mention that the defense stunk it up and made it harder on the offense, doesn't mean he doesn't know it. He's a results oriented guy, and #16 in scoring is a glaring shortcoming on this team. He thinks he can increase that. So far, you've blamed every offensive shortcoming on everyone but the offense. McD, to his credit, didn't rake the defense across the coals in public, as there are still many from that squad on his team.

OABB
04-29-2009, 11:04 AM
You know who you remind me of? Farva from Super Troopers. You're overbearing, not all that funny (though funny to laugh AT), easy to tease, have some strange sexual humor issues, and think youre a lot smarter and intimidating than you actually are. Plus, you think your insults and jokes are biting (like farva putting the soap in the rookie's cup) but they really are juvenile and uncreative. You are Farva.

Never seen it, but I'm all in for calling Lex "Farva" from now on.

bowtown
04-29-2009, 11:05 AM
I dont think Ive seen anyone mention this part of the article. Its interesting to see this kind of mention of this. Pat better be worried.

Worried about what? That the waiting list could shrink to 6 years instead of 7?

lex
04-29-2009, 11:08 AM
true to some degree, but the balance missing was an average o being unbalanced by a dismal d. that's why we never won much. Mcd is allready addressing the D far more than shanny would have. You can pass all day for all I care if you can get off the field on third down.

Look. I think Shanahan was as great as anyone. I think he is probably a better X and O guy than McDaniels but he had his shortcomings and I dont mind acknowledging them. But acknowledging Shanahan's shortcomings is not an endorsement of McDaniels or his offense in the slightest.

From what I can tell, it seemed like Shanahan cultivated offenses that had balance with the idea in mind that balance will equip you to beat a variety of opponents that you may face down the road. Josh seems to be more narrow in how he develops an offense. He seems to focus everything on a week to week basis without the backdrop of cultivating your team for down the road success.

Maybe Im wrong on that. Its just that when I look at McDaniels offense, I see them load up and score a lot of points against lesser teams at the expense of cultivating a more balanced offense. Even though they ran the ball more last year than in 2007, they run a lot out of the SG and also set up the run by running the Welker screen 30 times a game.

Shanahans offense in the good years, would build off the run more. If a team loaded up against the run, you might see them go to the pass but they were definitely going to run and always did. Shanahans offenses could chew up clock and help the defense that way.

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-29-2009, 11:09 AM
On a side note. Coach and I have something in common. We both missed an extra point in OT that lost our high school's biggest game of the year. I still hear about my stupid kick 12 years later. I wonder if he does.
... And Eric Mangini's crappy play call (at his FIRST HC position), cost his brother the rest of his Football career, do you think he still hears about that one?
Or do you think his brother just says "Holy F*#^!! - You're a coach in the NFL now" and got over it?:wiggle:

lex
04-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Worried about what? That the waiting list could shrink to 6 years instead of 7?

Yup. Believe it or not, I think it matters. If you pay attention to anything the NFL does, its all about getting money from every source possible. Its like the Borg. Losing fanbase does not coincide with what the NFL has been about.

lex
04-29-2009, 11:12 AM
You know who you remind me of? Farva from Super Troopers. You're overbearing, not all that funny (though funny to laugh AT), easy to tease, have some strange sexual humor issues, and think youre a lot smarter and intimidating than you actually are. Plus, you think your insults and jokes are biting (like farva putting the soap in the rookie's cup) but they really are juvenile and uncreative. You are Farva.

Wow, I must have hit a nerve. Its kind of satisfying.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 11:21 AM
Another Cutler endorsement: He was beyond bummed during the Denver stalemate, Vanderbilt strength and conditioning coach John Sisk says. But he still managed to work out religiously at his alma mater. He was lifting weights on April 2, the day he got the call that he was free from Denver.

"He was smiling and high-fiving all the guys," Sisk says. "He had to go buy a suit because he was going to Chicago the next day. He left during a tornado warning."

Yep. Jay was heartbroken to leave Denver. Hilarious!

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 11:25 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

What ??? You've got to be kidding right??? You actually feel he should think he'll run a worse offense than Shanahan!???! And you truly think he doesn't understand what happened here any better than you do??? You really can't be serious! ANY new coach worth Jack S**T has got to believe in himself and his system or we are truly ****ed!

And he knows more about what caused the ineptitude in red zone scoring than any one here on the OM, I can promise you that. And that includes you too colonel beef, so you need not worry yourself with such concerns!

TonyR
04-29-2009, 11:25 AM
I can't believe anyone could consider our offense last year elite.

Great post. In many of our losses our offense deserved just as much of the blame as our defense but because our defense was so bad most people fail to realize this. There was somebody here who pointed this out many times during the season, I think it was Beantown. Our offense failed many times last season and the defense and special teams do not deserve all of the blame.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 11:27 AM
Yep. Jay was heartbroken to leave Denver. Hilarious!

I noticed the same thing. Clearly he was very happy and thought he "won" and yet people still put this on McD and Bowlen.

epicSocialism4tw
04-29-2009, 11:27 AM
This is scary:

The little general

The thing is, McDaniels has rarely walked into a situation in which he appeared at first blush, hands-down, to be the right man for the job. In high school at Canton McKinley, he was called on to be the starting quarterback, all 5-foot-8 and 155 pounds of him. (Looking back, McKinley folks say those proportions were exaggerated.) In huddles, the offensive linemen, the receivers, well, just about everybody loomed over him.
Josh McDaniels
McDaniels has faced lots of questions about the Broncos' draft selections.

"It was funny. He was almost like a Rudy type of guy," says Broncos defensive end Kenny Peterson, a teammate at McKinley, which is just a few tosses from the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

"But he commanded respect. When Josh got in the huddle, guys listened because he was definitely the coach on the field."

The biggest game of McDaniels' career was profiled in Sports Illustrated in 1994 because it was the 100th meeting in a storied rivalry between McKinley and Massillon. The game went to overtime. The stadium was packed. McDaniels, who also served as the team's place-kicker, lined up for an extra-point attempt. The kick sailed wide right.

According to coach Thom McDaniels, a reporter asked Josh what it felt like to be the guy who cost his team the game.

"He answered that he suspected God must've chosen him to be the guy that cost his team the game because he was strong enough to handle it," Thom says. "I was blown away that a high school senior could handle it that way."


This sounds frighteningly like Avery Johnson, who I had the "privilege" to watch singlehandedly suck the life out of a franchise with his overbearing, hard-headed stubbornness.

Avery Johnson was all about himself. Mainly about his "system" and how players fit into those plans. Included in his ridiculous system was the misuse of Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, and what eventually got him canned: forcing Jason Kidd to change the way he played basketball for his entire career. All in the name of "the system".

McD is frighteningly similar.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2009, 11:29 AM
Wow, I must have hit a nerve. Its kind of satisfying.

You did. Dealing with retardation from people who supposudly have adequate mental capacity is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 11:30 AM
McD is frighteningly similar.

???

How does this part of the article show that he's anything like Avery Johnson? If anything McD has proven that he gets the best out of the talents of his players. Ever heard of Matt Cassel? Do you think McD used him correctly last year?

The MVPlaya
04-29-2009, 11:30 AM
This is scary:



This sounds frighteningly like Avery Johnson, who I had the "privilege" to watch singlehandedly suck the life out of a franchise with his overbearing, hard-headed stubbornness.

Avery Johnson was all about himself. Mainly about his "system" and how players fit into those plans. Included in his ridiculous system was the misuse of Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, and what eventually got him canned: forcing Jason Kidd to change the way he played basketball for his entire career. All in the name of "the system".

McD is frighteningly similar.

Completely different. First off, football is a lot more systematic than basketball.

Secondly, look at Phil Jackson. He runs his system (triangle offense), and thats the bottom line. He gets players that can play in it.

snowspot66
04-29-2009, 11:31 AM
This is scary:



This sounds frighteningly like Avery Johnson, who I had the "privilege" to watch singlehandedly suck the life out of a franchise with his overbearing, hard-headed stubbornness.

Avery Johnson was all about himself. Mainly about his "system" and how players fit into those plans. Included in his ridiculous system was the misuse of Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, and what eventually got him canned: forcing Jason Kidd to change the way he played basketball for his entire career. All in the name of "the system".

McD is frighteningly similar.

Comparing basketball to football is retarded. One player can change an entire franchise in basketball. One player is only one of 22 in football and plays at most half of the game.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-29-2009, 11:31 AM
I dont think Ive seen anyone mention this part of the article. Its interesting to see this kind of mention of this. Pat better be worried.

Pat should be worried before they even play a game? This season will be sold out before they even have their first training camp practice. It's comical now watching you reach and strain to find something to whine about in every article that's written about this team.

Invesco is going to be sold out for a long time, even if the Broncos are as bad as deep down you hope they are this season. I'm sure you'll whine about the composition of the fans at the stadium, but Colorado's population is too transient, there are plent of opposing team fans that will buy up the tickets. The money still spends the same for Pat.

If they have a good season, I can't wait to see what you'll try to complain about then.

snowspot66
04-29-2009, 11:32 AM
A Thom McDaniels practice was disciplined but loose, high-energy yet controlled and meticulous. The elder McDaniels took great joy in doing stretching exercises. So does Josh.


:yayaya: :yayaya: :yayaya: :yayaya: :yayaya: :yayaya:

We might not lose half the roster to hamstrings for the third year in a row!

Hercules Rockefeller
04-29-2009, 11:33 AM
I noticed the same thing. Clearly he was very happy and thought he "won" and yet people still put this on McD and Bowlen.

I thought he hoped it would never get that far? But if he did, that would mean that Jay is a liar and we herefore cannot trust anything that he's ever said. That just completely changes the dynamic, can we now give him a cool nickname like some did to Josh with McDip**** or McPoopyhead or whatever they called him?

TheReverend
04-29-2009, 11:36 AM
I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades my QB.

I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades next years #1 for an undersized DB

I want to like this kid, I really do...

My sentiments exactly.

vancejohnson82
04-29-2009, 11:39 AM
so an ESPN spotlight on our coach is a "fluff" piece...OK, good to know

Shanahan's offenses in the 90s were better than McDaniels' offenses of the past couple years....Ok, great to know

Our defense took away possessions from our offense and it was their fault that we were in the middle of the pack in scoring.....Ok, nice to know

The Patriots' offense was based off of the Welker screen....wow, I didnt know that, great to know


Did I miss anything guys? These are all really great points that were brought up.

Chris
04-29-2009, 11:40 AM
The only thing I disagreed with was how cutler was painted. Team player? Great guy? His actions this year alone proved that's not the case.

epicSocialism4tw
04-29-2009, 11:41 AM
Comparing basketball to football is retarded. One player can change an entire franchise in basketball. One player is only one of 22 in football and plays at most half of the game.

Not at all. The comparison is to the personality.

It works if you are Bill Parcels with an extensive track record, then it works. If you are a young guy who cant get it worked out and you butt heads with the team leaders, then you lose the team and get a quick ticket out of town.

Simple, really.

It happens all the time in pro football. It happened to Parcells in Dallas. It happened to Dan Reeves in Denver (if you are old enough to remember that).

vancejohnson82
04-29-2009, 11:45 AM
Not at all. The comparison is to the personality.

It works if you are Bill Parcels with an extensive track record, then it works. If you are a young guy who cant get it worked out and you butt heads with the team leaders, then you lose the team and get a quick ticket out of town.

Simple, really.

It happens all the time in pro football. It happened to Parcells in Dallas. It happened to Dan Reeves in Denver (if you are old enough to remember that).

for the most part you are right....being stubborn can be a bad thing

however, many guys have been successful with this, like Tom Coughlin (we've already had the argument guys, no need to start it again), Jimmy Johnson, Bill Belicheck and Mike Ditka (once it worked...not with the Saints)

its really a crapshoot and you are playing with fire...however, I would rather that then someone who has no philosophy

Drek
04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

1. he obviously thinks he can run a better offense than Jeremy Bates, not Shanahan, as Bates was the guy calling the plays last year.

2. That probably is pretty damn accurate, since Bates and Cutler both said they were basically trying to mimic the '07 Pats last year.

3. Our team's offensive problems had as much to do with a QB who had a real penchant for red zone turnovers, thought he could rifle the ball into any hole, and an OC who never wanted to establish the running game as anything else. The offense failed to score points based entirely on its own merits, quit trying to make excuses for a heavily flawed unit.

DomCasual
04-29-2009, 11:58 AM
So, you have people in this thread saying, "Look at the yards. The scoring was a function of the horrible defense."

I would counter with, "Look at the yards. The only reason they had that many yards was because of a horrible defense - lots of yards trying to catch up in blowout games."

It's all about perspective, I guess. I would contend that our offense wasn't as good as the yards we gained seemed to indicate. You can rack up a lot of yards against prevent defenses - which we played against a lot.

Beantown Bronco
04-29-2009, 11:58 AM
One player is only one of 22 in football and plays at most half of the game.

Don't tell that to Spencer Larsen. :strong:

snowspot66
04-29-2009, 11:59 AM
On Cutler

Another Cutler endorsement: He was beyond bummed during the Denver stalemate, Vanderbilt strength and conditioning coach John Sisk says. But he still managed to work out religiously at his alma mater. He was lifting weights on April 2, the day he got the call that he was free from Denver.

"He was smiling and high-fiving all the guys," Sisk says. "He had to go buy a suit because he was going to Chicago the next day. He left during a tornado warning."

Sounds exactly like a guy that didn't want to be traded. I mean we run a pretty nice prison system at Dove Valley. The inmates all love it.

Grade A douchebag and the whole mess is on him.

Inkana7
04-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Personal view point aside, I thought this was a well researched, very well written article. Props to ESPN.

baja
04-29-2009, 12:15 PM
Look, Shanahan was an offensive genius. I watched him his entire career. Point being, there's nothing wrong with our new head coach coming in and noticing the same thing all the fans noticed.... fancy passing numbers, but no points.

All filler and no killer.

He wants to improve that, and I hope he does.

Popps don't waste your time with this guy Lex, Boob is a better football poster than him for crying out loud. ;D

rovolution
04-29-2009, 12:31 PM
Another Cutler endorsement: He was beyond bummed during the Denver stalemate, Vanderbilt strength and conditioning coach John Sisk says. But he still managed to work out religiously at his alma mater. He was lifting weights on April 2, the day he got the call that he was free from Denver.

"He was smiling and high-fiving all the guys," Sisk says. "He had to go buy a suit because he was going to Chicago the next day. He left during a tornado warning."

Yep. Jay was heartbroken to leave Denver. Hilarious!

the one thing i took from this article as well. I think Jay had plans to jump ship ever since Shanny and Bates departed and this whole Cassell thing was just the opportunity he was looking for.

The Pro Bowl appearance gave him a big head and he and his agent probably wanted to boost his celebrity profile. it wasnt gonna happen in this dusty old cow town.

lex
04-29-2009, 12:34 PM
Pat should be worried before they even play a game? This season will be sold out before they even have their first training camp practice. It's comical now watching you reach and strain to find something to whine about in every article that's written about this team.

Invesco is going to be sold out for a long time, even if the Broncos are as bad as deep down you hope they are this season. I'm sure you'll whine about the composition of the fans at the stadium, but Colorado's population is too transient, there are plent of opposing team fans that will buy up the tickets. The money still spends the same for Pat.

If they have a good season, I can't wait to see what you'll try to complain about then.

Empty sold out seats are still bad. And so are non-renewals. It reflects disinterest in a fan base that is spread out over a wide area. Its also suggests a reduction in merchandise sales, not to mention vendors kvetching. And like I said, the NFL is all about trying to maintain constant growth. It could be bad.

If we're winning and too pass based, Ill probably complain.

vancejohnson82
04-29-2009, 12:41 PM
Empty sold out seats are still bad. And so are non-renewals. It reflects disinterest in a fan base that is spread out over a wide area. Its also suggests a reduction in merchandise sales, not to mention vendors kvetching. And like I said, the NFL is all about trying to maintain constant growth. It could be bad.

If we're winning and too pass based, Ill probably complain.

I don't understand your point....

we were WAAAAY too pass based this year...and we just drafted a workhorse RB to balance the team out

where the hell is the complaint??

55CrushEm
04-29-2009, 12:43 PM
Yea, except the little detail that he has.

I'm with you, though... I prefer my coaches to be timid and unconfident.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

REP !!

fdf
04-29-2009, 01:08 PM
Look, Shanahan was an offensive genius. I watched him his entire career. Point being, there's nothing wrong with our new head coach coming in and noticing the same thing all the fans noticed.... fancy passing numbers, but no points.

I've suspected for the past few years that the real offensive "mastermind" in Denver was Gary Kubiak. Have you noticed that the franchise has gone steadily downhill since Kubiak left?

fdf
04-29-2009, 01:12 PM
McPoopyhead . . .

LOL.

Beantown Bronco
04-29-2009, 01:18 PM
I've suspected for the past few years that the real offensive "mastermind" in Denver was Gary Kubiak. Have you noticed that the franchise has gone steadily downhill since Kubiak left?

I love reminding the Pats fans around here that they haven't won a SB since Eric Mangini left. They love that.

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 01:38 PM
???

How does this part of the article show that he's anything like Avery Johnson? If anything McD has proven that he gets the best out of the talents of his players. Ever heard of Matt Cassel? Do you think McD used him correctly last year?

It's called free association ... quite common in schizophrenia and under the influence of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide ....:afro:

DomCasual
04-29-2009, 01:46 PM
???

How does this part of the article show that he's anything like Avery Johnson? If anything McD has proven that he gets the best out of the talents of his players. Ever heard of Matt Cassel? Do you think McD used him correctly last year?

Avery Johnson's the key guy here. Think about it. Avery Sharpe. Tex Avery. Avery Wavery. Avery, man, that's the key. Avery's twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

Broncoman13
04-29-2009, 01:48 PM
I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades my QB.

I want to like this kid, I really do... and then he trades next years #1 for an undersized DB

I want to like this kid, I really do...


This.

Here is my bottom line. When he gets out there and starts coaching he is going to have a lot of success. Our team will play good football and I have confidence that we will be improved all around.

My concern is strictly related to personnel decisions and who is making them. I understand to a certain point that you should have a lot of input from your coaches. Afterall, the system is theirs and they need to have a voice regarding how personnel fit within that system.

I just don't like the checks and balances we have here at this point. McD has a lot to learn still to get to BB status. I get that he needed to use picks this year b/c the team is void of talent. I understand the move for #37. Giving up a first round pick next year made sense. What was lacking, checks and balances. A real GM would have said, "whoa why do we have to make this move?" The answer would have been, "B/c we have a void in talent and the players we have at the position are all on the wrong side of 30. The checks and balances answer would be, "If we are that void of talent we should consider the success we will have in 2009. In the interest of building a team that as you stated is void of talent, we should ensure we have the ability to secure the best talent available next year, therefore making the pick contingent on the Seahawks receiving the latter of our first round picks." This is a conversation that takes 15-20 seconds. This is where a Pioli or AJ Smith type commands enough respect that teams aren't going to try and 'snow' them over with any type of phony BS.

There were a ton of trades this weekend. I've pointed this out a few times but I'll do it one last time. The Bills wanted to move up to #51 to address their OL. The Cowboys took picks #75 and #110 (3rd and 4th) for that #51 (2nd rounder). In contrast, we gave up #79 and #84 (both 3rds) which is a lot more value for #64 (13 picks later) and #130. The difference in points was huge. The Broncos (as confirmed by McD) got nervous that guys on their board were flying off the table... and they reached. Inexperience. It should be expected but it wasn't necessary to start with. IMO, Pat Bowlen should have kept the Goodmans around for a year or two.

I'll say this much... we have a very good coach that can get the most out of his players. We've drafted guys they feel can fit into their system. This isn't a typical New England Patriots draft either. Guys like Moreno and Smith are very different from Maroney, Wilfork, and the safety from Miami taken a couple years ago. Talent wise they are on par, character wise though, McD is going a different route which I like. Eddie Royal's character last year allowed him for so much more success. Alphonso Smith and Knowshon Moreno are the same type of guys, if not even more team oriented than Eddie Royal. Lots of win in this draft and how they'll improve the lockerroom. WE ARE GOING TO END UP WITH GUYS THAT LOVE TO PLAY FOR EACH OTHER AND A TRUE TEAM!!!

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 01:51 PM
It's truly amusing to watch people think that their new coach was really the reason for the Pats successes, and that it wasn't in actuality Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Watched Jets fans do it with Mangini, watched Notre Dame fans do it with Charlie Weis. Watched Browns fans swear by Romeo Crennel.

I understand the optimism, and I hate to break it to you, but here goes- the patriots were winning well before McDaniels ever got there, and they will continue to win without him. If you think that going 11-5 with what was a 16-0 team is that impressive, I have a bridge to sell you

Of course, Belichick had a lot to do with it, but factually McD got there 8 years ago about when their party hardy got rolling ... not that it means anything of course and obviously McD had nothing to do with any of NE's success whatsoever.

In fact, McD was a cancer on the team, a dark soul, brooding in his laboratory cooking up sinister plans to wreak havoc and cause mass hysteria and a strange incurable form of panic disorder, first in New England, and then in Denver free from the restraining hand of father Bill.

Here he could quickly unleash his hounds of hell upon the innocent and unsuspecting good folk of Bronco Nation .. woe is me, woe is us! God save us all!!!!!

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 01:54 PM
I've suspected for the past few years that the real offensive "mastermind" in Denver was Gary Kubiak. Have you noticed that the franchise has gone steadily downhill since Kubiak left?

Yes, a strange correlation, imagine that! :-)

Broncoman13
04-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Pat should be worried before they even play a game? This season will be sold out before they even have their first training camp practice. It's comical now watching you reach and strain to find something to whine about in every article that's written about this team.

Invesco is going to be sold out for a long time, even if the Broncos are as bad as deep down you hope they are this season. I'm sure you'll whine about the composition of the fans at the stadium, but Colorado's population is too transient, there are plent of opposing team fans that will buy up the tickets. The money still spends the same for Pat.

If they have a good season, I can't wait to see what you'll try to complain about then.

Curious Rock, how many games did you go to last year? As the season progressed it got worse and worse. At the Bills game there were 7000 no-shows! Can you ever remember a game at Invesco having that many no-shows? I guarantee you there was never that many at Mile High so no need to ask.

I also told many people post Shanny firing that we would absolutely draft a "flashy" or "sexy" player/position. This fits into Bowlen's concerns about putting BUTTS IN SEATS!

Yeah, he is going to sell out the season tickets (though you aren't hearing about how many people are turning in their tickets, especially in the high dollar seats). But a lot of that is from people that are planning on selling their seats. Check out ebay or craigslist and tell me different. Pat Bowlen is concerned with the current economy and people making tough decisions between their Broncos and their bills! Put a product that people love on the field and they will make that sacrifice. Field another 8-8 team and it will go down hill fast!

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Popps don't waste your time with this guy Lex, Boob is a better football poster than him for crying out loud. ;D

Touche!

TonyR
04-29-2009, 02:08 PM
...but factually McD got there 8 years ago about when their party hardy got rolling ... not that it means anything of course and obviously McD had nothing to do with any of NE's success whatsoever.


Yep. Some people are funny on this topic. Belichick handed the keys to the offense to a 29 year old. Clearly McD impressed the hell out of Belichick in order for this to happen. Here's a young guy who basically went from the mail room to the OC in a few years. And yet the significance of this is lost on some people. I get the impression from what he's been able to accomplish that he's going to win a lot of people over when this season gets rolling.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-29-2009, 02:09 PM
Curious Rock, how many games did you go to last year? As the season progressed it got worse and worse. At the Bills game there were 7000 no-shows! Can you ever remember a game at Invesco having that many no-shows? I guarantee you there was never that many at Mile High so no need to ask.


I was at every game. I usually pay attention to crowd size, but I don't remember the Bills game being that empty. Unfortunately that's about right for a game that was that cold. ****ty, especially since they were 8-6 and just needed a win to clinch a playoff spot, but it's been like since at least the beginning of the decade. People aren't willing to stick it out in bad weather anymore.

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 02:13 PM
So, you have people in this thread saying, "Look at the yards. The scoring was a function of the horrible defense."

I would counter with, "Look at the yards. The only reason they had that many yards was because of a horrible defense - lots of yards trying to catch up in blowout games."

It's all about perspective, I guess. I would contend that our offense wasn't as good as the yards we gained seemed to indicate. You can rack up a lot of yards against prevent defenses - which we played against a lot.

Spoken for truth Dom

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 02:18 PM
And Barrel man hit it on the head as well, Cutler never had that sixth sense , at least not yet and not here, that separates those rocket-armed QBs that think they are God's Gift to humanity like Jeff George, Jay C and a few others ( even Ryan Leaf, though he flamed out from mental combustion very early on) from guys like Elway or Montana.

epicSocialism4tw
04-29-2009, 02:22 PM
???

How does this part of the article show that he's anything like Avery Johnson? If anything McD has proven that he gets the best out of the talents of his players. Ever heard of Matt Cassel? Do you think McD used him correctly last year?

If you cant connect the dots there, then its likely you arent familiar with Avery Johnson. I dont blame you because you probably arent a Mavs fan. Reading this article was like reading Avery's early fluff pieces...except Avery learned the trade from a father-figure coach who he later hired.

I copied and pasted the section entitled "The Little General" because thats what Avery's nickname is. Both guys entered head coaching jobs with high profile franchises. Both guys are very tightly wound around their systems. Both guys are about discipline. Both guys minimize the contributions of the star players and maximize those of the role players. Both guys came in and clashed with the star players.

Regardless, the similarities are eerily similar.

Avery burnt players out on both he and his system. We'll see what becomes of McD.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 02:24 PM
...Cutler never had that sixth sense...

I don't know, he could locate a WR in triple coverage (with his eyes, not necessarily the ball) like few others. "I will complete a pass over three defenders if it's the last thing I do!"

epicSocialism4tw
04-29-2009, 02:26 PM
Touche!

I may not like all of lex's opinions, but he can talk football pretty well.

Don't get caught up in politiking your opinion of McD around here like it matters. Why should it matter to you whether or not lex likes this whole thing? Maybe you value what lex thinks more than you realize.

They are just opinions, guy.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 02:28 PM
I copied and pasted the section entitled "The Little General" because thats what Avery's nickname is.

You're right, I didn't know that.

I'm not too worried about his style. Belichick and Parcells, among others, have a heavy handed style that seems to work out okay. And you get the feeling from some of the anecdotes about him that he is well liked and considered a strong leader. Sure, some people will clash with him. But something tells me the players that can't get along with him are the types of players you don't want around.

2KBack
04-29-2009, 02:32 PM
If you cant connect the dots there, then its likely you arent familiar with Avery Johnson. I dont blame you because you probably arent a Mavs fan. Reading this article was like reading Avery's early fluff pieces...except Avery learned the trade from a father-figure coach who he later hired.

I copied and pasted the section entitled "The Little General" because thats what Avery's nickname is. Both guys entered head coaching jobs with high profile franchises. Both guys are very tightly wound around their systems. Both guys are about discipline. Both guys minimize the contributions of the star players and maximize those of the role players. Both guys came in and clashed with the star players.

Regardless, the similarities are eerily similar.

Avery burnt players out on both he and his system. We'll see what becomes of McD.

You mean Avery Johnson NBA coach of the year 2006?
Avery Johnson who coached the Mavs to their first NBA Finals Ever?
The fastest coach to 100 and 150 wins Avery Johnson?

lex
04-29-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't understand your point....

we were WAAAAY too pass based this year...and we just drafted a workhorse RB to balance the team out

where the hell is the complaint??


Wait and see.

epicSocialism4tw
04-29-2009, 02:35 PM
You're right, I didn't know that.

I'm not too worried about his style. Belichick and Parcells, among others, have a heavy handed style that seems to work out okay. And you get the feeling from some of the anecdotes about him that he is well liked and considered a strong leader. Sure, some people will clash with him. But something tells me the players that can't get along with him are the types of players you don't want around.

In Avery's case the players he clashed with were Devin Harris, Jason Terry, and later Jason Kidd.

Once freed of Avery, Devin Harris became an all-star. Jason Terry became 6th man of the year, and Kidd became the leader of a progressing Mavs team. His clash with Kidd got him fired. When Mark Cuban saw Avery Johnson try to turn Jason Kidd into Avery Johnson, he finally figured out that Avery was too bullish for his own good. I'm still ticked about how he shackled Devin Harris, meanwhile heaping praise on Jerry Stackhouse. Unbelievable.

Anyhow, McD is young and may have to learn the same lessons that Avery was confronted with. Its NOT all about you and your system. That may work in college, but in the pros you need players.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2009, 02:42 PM
I don't know, he could locate a WR in triple coverage (with his eyes, not necessarily the ball) like few others. "I will complete a pass over three defenders if it's the last thing I do!"

Your confused on the "6th sense" IMHO.

"Yes, he has a strong arm. But I never saw Jay throw a 70-yard in-air touchdown pass across the field like Elway did. He doesn't have that sixth sense Elway had. To compare himself, it was a mistake in Denver. Because Elway's thought of almost as if he's Jesus' little brother."

That 6th sense is knowing when to escape pressure. It's feeling that guy who's about to sack you from behind. It's escaping the pass rusher even if you don't see that pass rusher.

I don't think it has anything to do with throwing, although I could be wrong.

I don't really agree with "barrell mans" assessment of Cutler. I think he has that 6th sense just fine.

R8R H8R
04-29-2009, 03:09 PM
If you cant connect the dots there, then its likely you arent familiar with Avery Johnson. I dont blame you because you probably arent a Mavs fan. Reading this article was like reading Avery's early fluff pieces...except Avery learned the trade from a father-figure coach who he later hired.

I copied and pasted the section entitled "The Little General" because thats what Avery's nickname is. Both guys entered head coaching jobs with high profile franchises. Both guys are very tightly wound around their systems. Both guys are about discipline. Both guys minimize the contributions of the star players and maximize those of the role players. Both guys came in and clashed with the star players. (think TO)

Regardless, the similarities are eerily similar. Avery burnt players out on both he and his system. We'll see what becomes of McD.

Sounds like Bill Parcells to me...but that's just me. Bias is a funny thing--it makes you see what you want to see.

DenverBrit
04-29-2009, 03:11 PM
Popps, do you really think that the yards meant nothing, or are you willing to admit that the yards mean plenty, but that field possession and lack of possessions was to blame for the disparity in points/yards? The run game was phenomenal last year considering the injuries and youth across the board, you are once again turning one statistic into your entire argument rather than acknowledging the context surrounding the facts.

You don't think the perrenial red zone problems were the issue?
The lack of scoring didn't suddenly happen last season, it's been the hallmark of the Broncos offense for several years.
Points are what count, not yards.....and that's the same for Defense.
Who cares if they finish #1 in yards, but middle of the pack in points?
Yards are not the measure of a Defense or Offense, it's points......and playoff wins!
Denver's body of work for the last decade has yielded one playoff win......and a lot of yards.

DenverBrit
04-29-2009, 03:18 PM
If you would keep Bill Simmons cock out of your mouth, I dont think his semen would be in your brain.

You're recurrent homo-erotic postings say a lot about you, not who you're responding to.

You understand that, right??

DenverBrit
04-29-2009, 03:24 PM
Empty sold out seats are still bad. And so are non-renewals. It reflects disinterest in a fan base that is spread out over a wide area. Its also suggests a reduction in merchandise sales, not to mention vendors kvetching. And like I said, the NFL is all about trying to maintain constant growth. It could be bad.

If we're winning and too pass based, Ill probably complain.

Then do us all a favor and stop whining and complaining till then. ;D

lex
04-29-2009, 03:28 PM
Yes, a strange correlation, imagine that! :-)

Im going to assume Shanahan had more input on the scripted plays. After that, Im thinking he was not as pro active with the play calling (remember he approved plays suggested by Bates and Dennison?). Anyway, Denver did a lot better one their scripted plays. After that, there seemed to be a drop off.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 04:16 PM
You don't think the perrenial red zone problems were the issue?
The lack of scoring didn't suddenly happen last season, it's been the hallmark of the Broncos offense for several years.


This is true, and I think our smallish offensive line has been a major part of this problem.

Popps
04-29-2009, 04:54 PM
Ok, so we are going to see all the fluff and PR stories coming out to clean up McDaniels image. The only thing that will really work is wins. .

Yea, you know... I keep hearing this around the board.

... McDanielis just needs to win and nothing else matters...

Yea, well... **** that. We're not going to win the SB next season. We need to build a real foundation for future success instead of trying to slap band-aids over things and ride a volatile QB to success. We need to build a complete team.

So, there will be many tells outside of just pure wins this coming season. Finishing strong, improving defensively, a more cohesive team, etc. 8-8 never looked worse than it did this past season. 8-8 this coming season... with a new staff and a lot of young players could be very encouraging.

I think this whole "he just needs to win" thing is McD-bashers' way of saying... "no one should be optimistic or happy because I'm not, but if he wins games... then I guess I'll reluctantly root for him."

People are excited and they have good reason to be.... and McDaniels doesn't need to "clean up his image" in anyone's mind aside from a few, scorned, clucking hens around this message board.

Rohirrim
04-29-2009, 05:08 PM
Yea, you know... I keep hearing this around the board.

... McDanielis just needs to win and nothing else matters...

Yea, well... **** that. We're not going to win the SB next season. We need to build a real foundation for future success instead of trying to slap band-aids over things and ride a volatile QB to success. We need to build a complete team.

So, there will be many tells outside of just pure wins this coming season. Finishing strong, improving defensively, a more cohesive team, etc. 8-8 never looked worse than it did this past season. 8-8 this coming season... with a new staff and a lot of young players could be very encouraging.

I think this whole "he just needs to win" thing is McD-bashers' way of saying... "no one should be optimistic or happy because I'm not, but if he wins games... then I guess I'll reluctantly root for him."

People are excited and they have good reason to be.... and McDaniels doesn't need to "clean up his image" in anyone's mind aside from a few, scorned, clucking hens around this message board.

Before Shanahan left I looked at the list of teams we were going to play and said to myself - 4 and 12. To think that any coach on the planet is going to come in here and take what Shanahan left behind to the playoffs is just mindless blather. This team needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. If we finish 8 and 8, but the team looks more aggressive, focused and intense, then I'll call that a major victory. Those last three games (and the Raider game), this team looked confused, lost, uninspired and burned out - like its coach. I am confident we'll look better. I don't know if the wins will come right away, but I'll be looking for the change of attitude. And before anybody brings up the loss of Cutler, spare me. I'm convinced that guy had mental issues. I'm glad he's gone.

tsiguy96
04-29-2009, 05:42 PM
i think its funny. everyone is whining how bad this season WILL be, without the season happening yet. people are whining about mcdaniels being an awful coach in all assets of coaching, without seeing him coach a game, or seeing how his draft picks turn out.

everyone ever associated with mcdaniels loves him, including the current players on the team. how you idiots on this board constantly find ways to try and isolate the coach of your supposed football team instead of supporting him is amazing.

if cutler wanted to be a bronco, he wouldnt have walked around the vanderbuilt weight room high fiving everyone when he found out he was traded, he wouldnt have requested a trade (even as early as bates was let go) and he wouldnt have disrespected the owner and coach of the team. let it go.

Kaylore
04-29-2009, 05:42 PM
I can't believe no one's said it yet...

Barrel Man isn't a true fan nur nur nur!!!!!

:giggle:

This was a good read. I like that he's addressing all areas of the team. I think part of peoples' problems with him is they really thought "the offense was fine all we needed was some help on defense and we'd be perfect."

It wasn't. This team needed to be gutted. You don't lose 40-7 on Monday Night Football because you just "need some defensive tweaking." The team was soft and football stupid and it showed in all three phases of the game.

McDaniels is building a team one player at a team. He's basically gutted everything and laying the foundation for a tough, intelligent football team. Will it work? I have no idea, but I like that he's going balls to the wall with this and the players and coaches he's added, regardless of what he paid, make us a better team than we were last year.

The part that stood out to me was that McDaniels told the team all the yardage they racked up meant nothing because they didn't score points. I bet Cutler got pissed at that. I suspect he was incensed at how dismissive McDaniels was of his "body of work" so to speak and that was the genesis of discontent. I can understand, in a way, but you can't let pride get in the way of things like this - you know - guys that are trying to make you better than you are.

Regardless, this team needed help all over and McDaniels thinks he can bring that help. I'm not sold on everything he's done, but he's done more that I like than that I don't. Whether he's right or wrong, he has a vision for this team and is going after that and even if not every part is perfect, sometimes when people all buy into something and really put effort into it, they can make imperfect ideas successful.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2009, 06:03 PM
This is true, and I think our smallish offensive line has been a major part of this problem.

Really? Seems to me I remember the Broncos smallish offensive lines dominating the red zone back when TD and Elway were playing. Remember the SB against GB when GB had Gilbert Brown? Yah, that smallish Broncos line made him look silly...

It's all about a RB willing to get into the endzone, and a solid offensive line to help with the push. It's about a quick first step off the snap, timing and technique.

Inkana7
04-29-2009, 06:05 PM
We've had pussy ass runningbacks since 2006 and turnover-prone QBs since Griese hurt his shoulder.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 06:42 PM
Seems to me I remember the Broncos smallish offensive lines dominating the red zone back when TD and Elway were playing.

I bolded the key part for you. That was then, this is now. Our offensive line hasn't been nearly as good since then. This current O-line has a chance to be that good but right now they aren't nearly as dominant in the running game. Sure the RB is part of it, but I think it's more about the O-line.

TonyR
04-29-2009, 06:47 PM
This team needed to be gutted. You don't lose 40-7 on Monday Night Football because you just "need some defensive tweaking." The team was soft and football stupid and it showed in all three phases of the game.


Anybody who doesn't believe this should go back and watch the game Denver played on Sunday, November 23 as home against the Oakland Raiders. Debacle.

baja
04-29-2009, 07:28 PM
I think this whole "he just needs to win" thing is McD-bashers' way of saying... "no one should be optimistic or happy because I'm not, but if he wins games... then I guess I'll reluctantly root for him."

What it really says is the bashers (the smart ones like TheDave and So Cal and Rev. will come around) have a very basic knowledge of the game of football, only being able to feel good if the team wins and feel bad if the team loses with no understanding of all the nuances being played out.

I'm telling ya right now McDaniels is going to be a great coach for a long time and will win many championships here in Denver and some of us are going to enjoy the hell out of bumping some of these threads over the years.

mhgaffney
04-29-2009, 07:43 PM
Well written?

Sure.

But it's still shlock.

ton80
04-29-2009, 08:03 PM
Look the reality is that we hired McDaniels to be a HC. What he has become is a HC and a GM. That's problematic. If we giving him more power, then he needs to be held responsible for the consequences. He wins, or he is gone.

Did I miss something? I thought Xanders was the GM and McD was the coach.

ton80
04-29-2009, 08:28 PM
Great post. In many of our losses our offense deserved just as much of the blame as our defense but because our defense was so bad most people fail to realize this. There was somebody here who pointed this out many times during the season, I think it was Beantown. Our offense failed many times last season and the defense and special teams do not deserve all of the blame.

Last year, there were a few times the D did step up, giving the ball back to the O only to have the O blow it. The D never seemed to feed off the O and the O never seemed to feed off the D. In other words, the Broncos were not a very good team. McD knows this and it has been stated many times before that McD is trying to improve all facets of the team.

Meck77
04-29-2009, 08:33 PM
Last year, there were a few times the D did step up, giving the ball back to the O only to have the O blow it. The D never seemed to feed off the O and the O never seemed to feed off the D. In other words, the Broncos were not a very good team. McD knows this and it has been stated many times before that McD is trying to improve all facets of the team.

Simple answer. Cutler was not a team leader. He made a few snide remarks directed at the D over the years.

SouthStndJunkie
04-29-2009, 09:16 PM
On a side note. Coach and I have something in common. We both missed an extra point in OT that lost our high school's biggest game of the year. I still hear about my stupid kick 12 years later. I wonder if he does.

SonOfMatt-Prater?

Popps
04-29-2009, 10:21 PM
Popps, do you really think that the yards meant nothing, or are you willing to admit that the yards mean plenty

Actually, they meant what they meant. 16th in the league in scoring. I would have rather seen more points, or at least a more consistent running game. Yards are fine, but what did they mean at the end of the day when you can't punch the ball in or control the clock?

The run game was phenomenal last year considering the injuries and youth across the board, you are once again turning one statistic into your entire argument rather than acknowledging the context surrounding the facts.

The run-game was very good when Hillis was the starter, and had he stayed healthy, I've already said that I think Shanahan would have kept his job. (For better or worse.)

But, if it's context you want... you have to put high yardage numbers in context. What did they produce? A mediocre scoring team and a passing offense that only scored 7 more TDs than INTs.

maher_tyler
04-29-2009, 10:29 PM
Not to mention the O turning the ball over what seemed like a weekly thing in the redzone!!

ton80
04-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Before Shanahan left I looked at the list of teams we were going to play and said to myself - 4 and 12. To think that any coach on the planet is going to come in here and take what Shanahan left behind to the playoffs is just mindless blather. This team needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. If we finish 8 and 8, but the team looks more aggressive, focused and intense, then I'll call that a major victory. Those last three games (and the Raider game), this team looked confused, lost, uninspired and burned out - like its coach. I am confident we'll look better. I don't know if the wins will come right away, but I'll be looking for the change of attitude. And before anybody brings up the loss of Cutler, spare me. I'm convinced that guy had mental issues. I'm glad he's gone.


I have tremendous faith in Denver's o-line. With the receiving corps, depth at RB and Orton, the offense alone should win us 8 wins. This team is not rebuilding. Its adding depth and getting stronger. And, there is no way in hell the defense sucks as bad as last year. I don't see any reason to be pessimistic.

BroncoMan4ever
04-29-2009, 11:45 PM
I don't like how he thinks he can run a better offense than Shanahan. It seems that he simply does not understand that this teams' scoring problems stemmed form the defense and resulting lack of field position/turnovers/possessions, not the offense and how it performed.

no, it directly pointed towards ineptitude on the offense's part. we were the second best offense moving the ball, but once we got to the red zone we were relying on Prater, because we lacked any ability to punch the ball into the end zone. 2nd in yards and only 16th in points is a big deal. and if he didn't feel he could do better than Shanahan did, we wouldn't have brought him in to coach our team.

sure somewhat indirectly, a lack of short field from a lack of turnovers, or the long fields because our return game always had us starting drives from the 20, but we haven't had a RB capable of getting into the end zone or being any kind of red zone threat.

Killericon
04-30-2009, 12:00 AM
he walked into a Steve Young led offense with Walsh picking the players for him. You cannot compare a rebuilding effort to a super bowl team. Shanahan had little, if anything to do with building that team.

http://taylormadetirade.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/340x22.jpg

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Also, I don't think Walsh was the GM when Shanny was their OC, but you get the general idea.

24champ
04-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Simple answer. Cutler was not a team leader. He made a few snide remarks directed at the D over the years.

They deserved it. That D was pathetic.

Odysseus
04-30-2009, 12:38 AM
I never thought that Cutler was that cocky but back east where it's easier to see highlights of Yankees games from 20 years ago than a Nuggets in the playoffs game...to hear Cutler "could not keep his frigging pie hole shut"...consistently passed around is kind of funny.

Odysseus
04-30-2009, 12:41 AM
I can't believe anyone could consider our offense last year elite. They were elite for three games, and then came crashing back down to earth. I spent the whole second half of the year hoping we would come anywhere near the success we had to start the year. It never happened. Even in the games we won, the offense never dominated, except for brief stretches (end of the Cleveland Game). They put up a ton of yards because of their aggressive playcalling and decision making (which also led to a lot of turnovers), but I can't believe that anyone thought we were anywhere in the neighborhood of the best offense in the league after the first 3 games.

Mike Lombardi had a pretty good point about this... He wasn't talking specifically about the Broncos, but he said that the first several games of a year allowed teams with new schemes to look better than they were. They can take other teams by surprise because they are throwing out new looks that the other teams had no film on. But as the season wears on, this advantage goes away. Gimics give way to talent and execution. This pretty much fits the 2008 Broncos to a "T". Started off with our new pass-heavy scheme (which Cutler admitted they stole from the Patriots) and took some teams by surprise. But then, once the middle of the season came around, and we no longer had the element of surprise to fall back on, we were exposed as an above average offense. That's it.

And while I agree that our defense was the most horrendously awful piece of crap I have ever witnessed in my 25+ years as a Bronco fan, this should not effect an "elite" offense like it did to ours. Cutler and company were not able to elevate the team, which is what an elite offense would do. Just like elite defenses carry poor offenses far into the playoffs.

Excellent post! :thumbsup:

colonelbeef
04-30-2009, 07:13 AM
We've had p***Y ass runningbacks since 2006 and turnover-prone QBs since Griese hurt his shoulder.

Cutler was a better QB through his first 3 seasons than Peyton Manning. I'm sure there were moronic Colts fans trying to get rid of Peyton too, but they were lucky and it didn't happen

colonelbeef
04-30-2009, 07:16 AM
http://taylormadetirade.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/340x22.jpg

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Also, I don't think Walsh was the GM when Shanny was their OC, but you get the general idea.

Here is the major difference- Shanahan didn't come in and immediately get rid of the best player on the team because his ego wouldn't allow for a resolution. Also consider who Shanahan was replacing- not somebody of his own credential.

colonelbeef
04-30-2009, 07:18 AM
Simple answer. Cutler was not a team leader. He made a few snide remarks directed at the D over the years.

Peyton Manning did the EXACT SAME THING to his offensive line following the loss in 2005 to the Patriots. In fact, it was far more egregious. Thank god the Colts took a stand and got rid of that terrible leader!!1111!!.... Oh wait...

vancejohnson82
04-30-2009, 08:20 AM
Peyton Manning did the EXACT SAME THING to his offensive line following the loss in 2005 to the Patriots. In fact, it was far more egregious. Thank god the Colts took a stand and got rid of that terrible leader!!1111!!.... Oh wait...

Peyton Manning was coming off of back to back MVP seasons...

good comparison though

BroncoBuff
04-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Interesting. Peterson played ball with the coach in high school.

Yup. Maybe that's why we didn't draft any defensive linemen ???







j/k haters

BroncoBuff
04-30-2009, 09:50 AM
Cutler made a few snide remarks directed at the D over the years.

I dunno ... the only comments I heard were very accurate, brief mentions, and if I recall, they were made after the season(s) ended.

Besides, what should we expect him to say? We had the worst D in the entire league over '07 and '08 combined. That's brutal for a young quarterback who is himself lighting it up - while his team is struggling to .500 records.

If I were in his shoes, I wouldda said a lot more than Jay did ... after the season ended, anyway.

Drek
04-30-2009, 10:20 AM
I dunno ... the only comments I heard were very accurate, brief mentions, and if I recall, they were made after the season(s) ended.

Besides, what should we expect him to say? We had the worst D in the entire league over '07 and '08 combined. That's brutal for a young quarterback who is himself lighting it up - while his team is struggling to .500 records.

If I were in his shoes, I wouldda said a lot more than Jay did ... after the season ended, anyway.

He can call them out all he wants in the locker room or on the practice field. But he made some pretty negative comments, attributing losses and the like entirely to the D, to the press.

That is the big smoking gun with Cutler. He's real damn willing to share all with a reporter. Back when Peyton Manning had infrequent outbursts early in his career people said he'd never win anything because he couldn't be a team player. Eventually Peyton woke up and became the calming, guiding influence a star QB should be within his team.

Cutler was a team captain last year, but it was pretty clear that he saw himself as the captain of the offense, not the captain of the Denver Broncos. A QB doesn't just need to be leading the offense on the field come Sunday, he needs to lead the entire team all week off the field and in practice, as well as from the sidelines when not on the field during games.

vancejohnson82
04-30-2009, 10:26 AM
I dunno ... the only comments I heard were very accurate, brief mentions, and if I recall, they were made after the season(s) ended.

Besides, what should we expect him to say? We had the worst D in the entire league over '07 and '08 combined. That's brutal for a young quarterback who is himself lighting it up - while his team is struggling to .500 records.

If I were in his shoes, I wouldda said a lot more than Jay did ... after the season ended, anyway.

Buff, I feel the same way to a certain extent...Cutler had the right to say whatever he wanted, being that it was entirely true...

however, was it the correct thing to do? maybe not...

but he's young, brash and that kind of thing really is his M.O, so it wasn't surprising or alarming....i just dont think guys who are leaders say that kind of stuff...perhaps he'll grow into that role in Chicago

BroncoBuff
04-30-2009, 01:05 PM
That is the big smoking gun with Cutler. He's real damn willing to share all with a reporter. Back when Peyton Manning had infrequent outbursts early in his career people said he'd never win anything because he couldn't be a team player. Eventually Peyton woke up and became the calming, guiding influence a star QB should be within his team.

Are you applying for a place among the ranks of our Jay-Army? hmmm...

BroncoBuff
04-30-2009, 02:08 PM
Peyton Manning did the EXACT SAME THING to his offensive line following the loss in 2005 to the Patriots. In fact, it was far more egregious. Thank god the Colts took a stand and got rid of that terrible leader!!1111!!.... Oh wait...

Hey, another soldier to join the Jay-Army!

BroncoBuff
04-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Simple answer. Cutler was not a team leader. He made a few snide remarks directed at the D over the years.Buff, I feel the same way to a certain extent...Cutler had the right to say whatever he wanted, being that it was entirely true...

however, was it the correct thing to do? maybe not...

I disagree with the term "snide." I think I do anyway .... I might not recall his statements precisely, but I seem to remember they were brief, accurate, and stated no names. And I also recall - and this is VERY important imo - that these comments all came AFTER the season(s) ended. That is a very big qualifier in my book.

Personally, I like guys who say it like it is, who shoot from the hip. That's what a leader is - a guy who gives voice to what his troops are telling him. And most importantly, he was correct - our defense was ATROCIOUS the last two years ... worst in the league over those two years combined.

vancejohnson82
04-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Personally, I like guys who say it like it is, who shoot from the hip. That's what a leader is - a guy who gives voice to what his troops are telling him. And most importantly, he was correct - our defense was ATROCIOUS the last two years ... worst in the league over those two years combined.

I like those guys too.....Michael Jordan was one of those guys...getting in the faces of his teammates and firing them up....DURING THE GAME...and IN THE LOCKER ROOM

after the game, it was all about the team concept....WE coudlnt get it done...WE need to play better....

the same thing goes for Peyton as he became a true leader....you never heard anything but the team from him

Odysseus
04-30-2009, 04:53 PM
Before Shanahan left I looked at the list of teams we were going to play and said to myself - 4 and 12. To think that any coach on the planet is going to come in here and take what Shanahan left behind to the playoffs is just mindless blather. This team needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. If we finish 8 and 8, but the team looks more aggressive, focused and intense, then I'll call that a major victory. Those last three games (and the Raider game), this team looked confused, lost, uninspired and burned out - like its coach. I am confident we'll look better. I don't know if the wins will come right away, but I'll be looking for the change of attitude. And before anybody brings up the loss of Cutler, spare me. I'm convinced that guy had mental issues. I'm glad he's gone.

I don't have any issues with Cutler but I will be glad when get past the John Elway hangover. Noooo! They took away our Elway!!!!! Welcome to how the rest of the league lives.