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View Full Version : Simple question: Why no DT?


Bob
04-28-2009, 05:20 PM
Why was no DT picked in the draft? Why was the biggest weakness not addressed in any real way? It seemed like a 14 year-old blogger was in charge of the draft, over-reaching on folks we didnt need, and ignoring most needs we have.

I guess the Broncos picked up a decent FA DT today, a criminal, but a talented one ... but still will someone make the augument here, that this was a draft that dealt with the realities of a really crappy run defence.

garandman
04-28-2009, 05:25 PM
Sorry, pet peeve dude. SPELL correctly damnit, anyway it has been hashed out a million time previously. But according to the new Dove Valley regime, they just were not any worth taking, i guess....

SonOfLe-loLang
04-28-2009, 05:26 PM
I wanted them to take that "criminal" in the 4th round anyway.

Bob
04-28-2009, 05:27 PM
Sorry, pet peeve dude. SPELL correctly damnit, anyway it has been hashed out a million time previously. But according to the new Dove Valley regime, they just were not any worth taking, i guess....

Hmmm, sorry --

But the reasons why the ignored needs is that this coach thinks he can win without addressing the biggest need is beyond me.

NYBronco
04-28-2009, 05:31 PM
Why was no DT picked in the draft? Why was the biggest weakness not addressed in any real way? It seemed like a 14 year-old blogger was in charge of the draft, over-reaching on folks we didnt need, and ignoring most needs we have.

I guess the Broncos picked up a decent FA DT today, a criminal, but a talented one ... but still will someone make the augument here, that this was a draft that dealt with the realities of a really crappy run defence.

Why don't you ask the 14 year old blogger in charge of the draft he could probably explain it to you.

cutthemdown
04-28-2009, 05:34 PM
Best player available in there opinion wasn't a DT in the upper rounds. After that they probably felt there was no value.

They got a couple big dlineman as FA as they are as about as likely to play well as any pick after the 4th round.

PRBronco
04-28-2009, 05:39 PM
The DTs were just kinda ****ty this year, none representing good value at our picks. Drafting for need just leads to reaches (Tyson Jackson) and leaves you a worse team in the long run. I wanted DTs too, but the more I look at it, the less I see one actually worth taking.

DenverBrit
04-28-2009, 05:40 PM
Was there a DT available that would start or contribute this year?

Apparently, Nolan didn't think so......that works for me. ;D

maher_tyler
04-28-2009, 05:40 PM
Best player available in there opinion wasn't a DT in the upper rounds. After that they probably felt there was no value.

They got a couple big dlineman as FA as they are as about as likely to play well as any pick after the 4th round.

A little comon sense goes a long way..to bad comon sense isnt so comon these days!! Good post!!

cutthemdown
04-28-2009, 05:43 PM
Let's say Broncos picked Chris Baker in the 5th round. Mel Kiper would say well this kid has potential and should have went higher, but he has character concerns. Would that make you more happy. Is it where the player is selected at that makes you feel warm and cozy?

If Broncos had Raji would you be happy? Even though he didn't play NT and always had another big DT next to him in college? He has 4-3 DT written all over him IMO.

cutthemdown
04-28-2009, 05:44 PM
Chiefs so have a lot of talent on the front 4 now. Dorsey, Jackson etc. Not sure they are 3-4 material but the makings of a really good 4-3 if you ask me.

SoDak Bronco
04-28-2009, 05:50 PM
We could've gotten Ron Brace for next years one..but I would've rather had Alphonso honesetly.

GeniusatWork
04-28-2009, 05:52 PM
As many have said, it wasn't on the board past Raji. Nolan thought the rest of the draftees were not better than what he had. Now we have to see how it plays out. Nolan isn't scared to go into the season with what he has. Seems like some of us are.

PRBronco
04-28-2009, 05:59 PM
We could've gotten Ron Brace for next years one..but I would've rather had Alphonso honesetly.

Exactly. "Gentle giant"? No thanks.

GeniusatWork
04-28-2009, 06:03 PM
Best player available in there opinion wasn't a DT in the upper rounds. After that they probably felt there was no value.

They got a couple big dlineman as FA as they are as about as likely to play well as any pick after the 4th round.

I think Nolan liked what he had. I'm still surprised he didn't try for DL/OLB in round two. He wanted the ballhawks Smith and McBath. Nolan had his chance, then McD got his guy the steamroller.

GeniusatWork
04-28-2009, 06:07 PM
Chiefs so have a lot of talent on the front 4 now. Dorsey, Jackson etc. Not sure they are 3-4 material but the makings of a really good 4-3 if you ask me.

You have to win the AFC West first.

Rohirrim
04-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Why was no DT picked in the draft? Why was the biggest weakness not addressed in any real way? It seemed like a 14 year-old blogger was in charge of the draft, over-reaching on folks we didnt need, and ignoring most needs we have.

I guess the Broncos picked up a decent FA DT today, a criminal, but a talented one ... but still will someone make the augument here, that this was a draft that dealt with the realities of a really crappy run defence.

The scouting department pulled a prank on Lil Mac and shuffled all the draft profiles on him. He actually thought Alphonso Smith was a DT. ;D

Rock Chalk
04-28-2009, 06:16 PM
Why was no DT picked in the draft? Why was the biggest weakness not addressed in any real way? It seemed like a 14 year-old blogger was in charge of the draft, over-reaching on folks we didnt need, and ignoring most needs we have.

I guess the Broncos picked up a decent FA DT today, a criminal, but a talented one ... but still will someone make the augument here, that this was a draft that dealt with the realities of a really crappy run defence.

The biggest weakness of the team was addressed, nicely.

Safety.

DT is a weakness but it wasnt our biggest weakness. iN Fact, Id put LB AND Safety and CB outside of Champ as bigger weaknesses.

Bob
04-28-2009, 06:17 PM
Let's say Broncos picked Chris Baker in the 5th round. Mel Kiper would say well this kid has potential and should have went higher, but he has character concerns. Would that make you more happy. Is it where the player is selected at that makes you feel warm and cozy?

If Broncos had Raji would you be happy? Even though he didn't play NT and always had another big DT next to him in college? He has 4-3 DT written all over him IMO.

Short answer -- yes. If we gave up next years 1st for a 37th pick, would we have been wise to move up from 12 to 8, for the same or less cost?

Again, I am looking for other's take on this, and have read some articles, and have heard McDaniel's reasoning, and it seems weird to me, that instead of picking up a decent CB, he would not have gone after Ray M, from USC, (a great run stopper) or why would we trade our thirds away, for a TE, who from all accounts would have been there in the third, and we could have picked up the DT, the Colts nabbed in the fourth.

Last year, I was disapointed in no DT in the first few picks, but never felt like we reached for who we got. Obviously we had a good draft last year, hope we have another.

GeniusatWork
04-28-2009, 06:29 PM
The biggest weakness of the team was addressed, nicely.

Safety.

DT is a weakness but it wasnt our biggest weakness. iN Fact, Id put LB AND Safety and CB outside of Champ as bigger weaknesses.

There was some problems there.

Bronx33
04-28-2009, 06:30 PM
DTs are messy and poop on the carpet and with the new carpet at dove vally a new DT was out of question.

OCBronco
04-28-2009, 06:51 PM
[/B]

Short answer -- yes. If we gave up next years 1st for a 37th pick, would we have been wise to move up from 12 to 8, for the same or less cost?

Again, I am looking for other's take on this, and have read some articles, and have heard McDaniel's reasoning, and it seems weird to me, that instead of picking up a decent CB, he would not have gone after Ray M, from USC, (a great run stopper) or why would we trade our thirds away, for a TE, who from all accounts would have been there in the third, and we could have picked up the DT, the Colts nabbed in the fourth.

Last year, I was disapointed in no DT in the first few picks, but never felt like we reached for who we got. Obviously we had a good draft last year, hope we have another.

Problem is, Ray M is not a great run stopper. I'm a USC fan out here in SoCal, and I'm well aware of what a liability he can be... overrunning plays, out of position quite a lot, etc. That, and he's got serious maturity issues (fights on campus; his little dance with Erin Andrews, etc.). No thanks.

kamakazi_kal
04-28-2009, 07:15 PM
cause the guys are first time HC and GM's and their learning on the job at denvers expense ..... if mcDic&fu^k wanted a NT he should have taken the one his master took ..... but nooooooooo lets just buck the trend and take a RB to go with the other 12 on the roster (4 free agents signed by him for a "commitee back system" even though the guy he picked is a full time fu$kin back.)

Let me ask this if their were no picks worth it for NT then why didn't McImthe$hit go after one in FA ???????????????

kamakazi_kal
04-28-2009, 07:16 PM
Problem is, Ray M is not a great run stopper. I'm a USC fan out here in SoCal, and I'm well aware of what a liability he can be... overrunning plays, out of position quite a lot, etc. That, and he's got serious maturity issues (fights on campus; his little dance with Erin Andrews, etc.). No thanks.

No .... the problem is we have plenty of DE converted to LB ...... we straight failed when it came to addressing the problem of addressing run stoping .....fat.... DL men.

OBF1
04-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Big Mac's are yummy

kamakazi_kal
04-28-2009, 07:26 PM
Big Mac's are yummy

........ bobo ain't here ......

GeniusatWork
04-28-2009, 07:30 PM
[/B]

Short answer -- yes. If we gave up next years 1st for a 37th pick, would we have been wise to move up from 12 to 8, for the same or less cost?

Again, I am looking for other's take on this, and have read some articles, and have heard McDaniel's reasoning, and it seems weird to me, that instead of picking up a decent CB, he would not have gone after Ray M, from USC, (a great run stopper) or why would we trade our thirds away, for a TE, who from all accounts would have been there in the third, and we could have picked up the DT, the Colts nabbed in the fourth.

Last year, I was disapointed in no DT in the first few picks, but never felt like we reached for who we got. Obviously we had a good draft last year, hope we have another.

The Company answer is they liked what they had already. They have a point. DJ, Davis and Larsen are not slouches in the middle, and have some range. Throw in Woodyard and Mario Haggan and Louis Green, and I suppose they liked what they had. They want turnovers and that can come from the back four as well as the front seven.

Bob
04-28-2009, 08:10 PM
cause the guys are first time HC and GM's and their learning on the job at denvers expense ..... if mcDic&fu^k wanted a NT he should have taken the one his master took ..... but nooooooooo lets just buck the trend and take a RB to go with the other 12 on the roster (4 free agents signed by him for a "commitee back system" even though the guy he picked is a full time fu$kin back.)

Let me ask this if their were no picks worth it for NT then why didn't McImthe$hit go after one in FA ???????????????

And I thought, I felt strongly about this issue.

I think Moreno most likely will be a great RB for us, and that will cover several of teh mistakes that I think he made this year -- but IF you are going to go after Moreno, at least get two DT's in the draft. And like whats been mentioned before, when we gave up our first pick next year, McDaniels was so myopic, that he couldnt hold out for the lesser of the two 1st picks?

A few years ago, we drafted three CB's, as our pass defence stunk, and we patched that hole. If we were not ranked something like 30th in this area, I wouldnt harp on it, but as we did next to nothing, it demonstrates that McDaniels thinks he is soooo brilliant, that he can win while folks are demoralizing us by pounding us into the ground, as we have been watching teams run on us for years, I would think that there would be more folks, that would be pissed.

Where's Plummer???
04-28-2009, 08:32 PM
all i can say is im glad were not raider fans and drafted that Bey guy...

outdoor_miner
04-28-2009, 09:08 PM
If we were not ranked something like 30th in this area, I wouldnt harp on it, but as we did next to nothing, it demonstrates that McDaniels thinks he is soooo brilliant, that he can win while folks are demoralizing us by pounding us into the ground, as we have been watching teams run on us for years, I would think that there would be more folks, that would be pissed.

Do you really not think that Mike Nolan (you know - the Defensive Coordinator who has been in this league a long, long time that McDaniels immediately brought on board to help fix the defense) had no say in these decisions? Do you think Nolan was screaming, "Get me a Tackle, Get me a Tackle!" and McDaniels ignored him?

There is no way. What this means is that Nolan believes he can make do with what they currently have up front. Maybe he's been pleasantly surprised by the talent of some of the d-line guys. Maybe he believes the secondary was the true weakest link last year. Whatever the case me be, you have to know that Nolan is involved in the decision making, and probably told him to stay away from most of the DTs and DEs because they didn't fit what he wanted to do.

Where's Plummer???
04-28-2009, 09:14 PM
Do you really not think that Mike Nolan (you know - the Defensive Coordinator who has been in this league a long, long time that McDaniels immediately brought on board to help fix the defense) had no say in these decisions? Do you think Nolan was screaming, "Get me a Tackle, Get me a Tackle!" and McDaniels ignored him?

There is no way. What this means is that Nolan believes he can make do with what they currently have up front. Maybe he's been pleasantly surprised by the talent of some of the d-line guys. Maybe he believes the secondary was the true weakest link last year. Whatever the case me be, you have to know that Nolan is involved in the decision making, and probably told him to stay away from most of the DTs and DEs because they didn't fit what he wanted to do.

http://aggieballer.com/pictures/ME/shaved/surprised.jpg

that is probably the best and most "make senseful" thing n/e one has said about this Defense. i never thought of it that way. good on ya mate!

fdf
04-28-2009, 09:23 PM
Let me ask this if their were no picks worth it for NT then why didn't McImthe$hit go after one in FA ???????????????

Short answer, he did. He signed Baker. Keep up with what's happening before you call names. In fact, just keep up with what's happening and don't call names at all. It's so 6th grade.

Dudeskey
04-28-2009, 10:08 PM
Short answer, he did. He signed Baker. Keep up with what's happening before you call names. In fact, just keep up with what's happening and don't call names at all. It's so 6th grade.

All I've heard about him is how he got kicked out of Penn State. But he was supposedly the 3rd best NT in the draft? Hope he becomes a born-again good citizen and pans out...

ton80
04-28-2009, 11:42 PM
Hmmm, sorry --

But the reasons why the ignored needs is that this coach thinks he can win without addressing the biggest need is beyond me.

Oh, I get it. McD knows our d-line sucks so he intentionally doesn't draft d-lineman. Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

Hulamau
04-29-2009, 12:02 AM
So many of the back breaking long runs last year were due to sloppy tackling well past the line of scrimmage. Our safeties were a joke last year and were the weak link on both the run and pass. The lack of a pass rush was hugh as well, no doubt, but that was a matter of both player skills ( or lack there of) and scheme. With all the confusion and mid-season changes, this team lost its mojo early on defense.

We cleared a lot of dead wood from the D line, lets see what these guys can do with Ayers and another player or two from these UDFAs and/or More FA's or trades can do? And beside Rome wasn't built in a day and the D is a minimum two to three year reclamation project.

We simply need decent improvement. If this D is back to #15 or 16 status by seasons end, along with this offense we could well make the playoffs even with our schedule....and with a good dose of injury luck this year which we are long over due for.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 12:58 AM
I thought on a lot of plays last yr it looked like Broncos had guys stopped then missed tackles by the safetys and linebackers ruined it. I thought the DT played better then the yr before but Engleberger seemed useless.

IMO the defense much better but still won't be dominant until we find some really talented big men upfront. Hopefully Ayers becomes the first one. Maybe that Chris Baker turns into a find you never know.

For sure though Andre Davis better then Webster, Ayers better then Engleberger(I mean he has to be, please god) Dawkins and Hill light speed better then Mcree and Manual.

Maybe with a better MLB, DJ can play a little better inside in the 3-4. Doom I'm hoping gets unleashed and is used as a pass rusher. I think we can be better on defense, it's almost a given.

Williams
04-29-2009, 12:59 AM
All I've heard about him is how he got kicked out of Penn State. But he was supposedly the 3rd best NT in the draft? Hope he becomes a born-again good citizen and pans out...

I agree. I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do come preseason. I know he put up some monster numbers at Hampton. Granted its weaker competition, but check the stats over the past two years (compare to Raji & Brace while you're there)... http://www.draftcountdown.com/rankings/dt.php I also read somewhere he had among the best DL vertical leaps at the combine. At 326, how's that for athleticism??

Like someone else stated, I wouldnt had a problem with spending up to a fourth considering the need. UDFA just makes the deal even sweeter. :pimp:

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2009, 02:00 AM
Here's another head scratcher...

I've listened to endless screaming in here about how stupid we were when we moved up in the 2007 draft to get Moss, a questionable pick with physical limitations. Moss at least was seen in that particular draft by other NFL teams as a highly talented athlete worthy of a first round pick even if he was a developmental project. Now we see the current regime making a FAR riskier move, jeopardizing what may very well be a shot at a true franchize QB with a move for a 2nd round talent, yet people in here who were highly critical of the Moss move are praising this one. Yes...they said he was the top rated CB on their board. My question...why did nobody else have him ranked #1? I wasn't a fan of Jenkins either, but he was obviously at the top of most teams boards as a CB, not Smith.

The pattern here...and it is a pattern...is that this rookie front office and this rookie coach seem to have their talent ranked in a way that looks like it's considerably different than what other teams thought. That could be good...or extremely bad.

The DT position is a good example. People in here are now quick to make the case that the DT talent wasn't any good, but whose opinion supports that? The Packers thought enough of Raji to take him where they did. The Skins thought highly of Orakpo. Even Kansas City...now with the former New England GM...a guy with FAR MORE experience and credibility than Xanders has as a talent judge...he selected Jackson with the 3rd pick, a guy who I was not impressed with but the fact remains these teams all thought the D-line picks they took were worth taking them where they did. Hence I'm not convinced this was a draft without defensive line talent. Time will tell, but I'm not ready to give carte blanche credibility to people doing this for the first time when their opinions have seemed out of sorts with other NFL teams and how they approach things.

Elway777
04-29-2009, 02:14 AM
I wanted them to take that "criminal" in the 4th round anyway.
He not a criminal , but he likes to bet the Hell out of people. He got kicked out of school for fighting. It might be a good think that he like to bet the hell out of people being a football player. I think he has 2 round talent. I think the Broncos got a steal.

Atwater His Ass
04-29-2009, 02:17 AM
It just a white wash footsteps. Had we taken a guy like Brace or traded up for Raji, they'd be all over McD's nuts for that too. These people have no real football opinions and only post things that agree with the flavor of the month and then enjoy piling on the bandwagon part of the internet when anyone disagree's with their "analysis".

We didn't take a DT? Wasn't any worth taking. We took 3 DTs? Wow look at McD fixing that DL. These people have no hard opinions before the draft, and none after. They just regurgitae the company line. And really that's fine. Not everyone here is in the same league when it comes to football knowldge. But it gets real grating listening to these idiots to puke out stupid crap to defend anything this team does.

It's particularly funny the guys that don't understand how you draft and how you evaluate a draft. I love the pass card they play "you can't really evaluate a draft until X years have passed." Yeah, that is true. However, that's not how teams draft. They dont' wait 5 years after a guy gets out of college to have the draft.

You draft based on your scouting, BPA, needs, etc. When you trade a 1st round pick to move some spots in the 2nd round for a position that isn't a need, that's a questionable move and we have every right to doubt it. Those type's of things can certainly (and are) critiqued at the time they occur.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2009, 02:19 AM
He not a criminal , but he likes to bet the Hell out of people. He got kicked out of school for fighting. It might be a good think that he like to bet the hell out of people being a football player. I think he has 2 round talent. I think the Broncos got a steal.
Do I even need to comment?

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2009, 02:27 AM
It just a white wash footsteps. Had we taken a guy like Brace or traded up for Raji, they'd be all over McD's nuts for that too. These people have no real football opinions and only post things that agree with the flavor of the month and then enjoy piling on the bandwagon part of the internet when anyone disagree's with their "analysis".

We didn't take a DT? Wasn't any worth taking. We took 3 DTs? Wow look at McD fixing that DL. These people have no hard opinions before the draft, and none after. They just regurgitae the company line. And really that's fine. Not everyone here is in the same league when it comes to football knowldge. But it gets real grating listening to these idiots to puke out stupid crap to defend anything this team does.

It's particularly funny the guys that don't understand how you draft and how you evaluate a draft. I love the pass card they play "you can't really evaluate a draft until X years have passed." Yeah, that is true. However, that's not how teams draft. They dont' wait 5 years after a guy gets out of college to have the draft.

You draft based on your scouting, BPA, needs, etc. When you trade a 1st round pick to move some spots in the 2nd round for a position that isn't a need, that's a questionable move and we have every right to doubt it. Those type's of things can certainly (and are) critiqued at the time they occur.
Very true. It's easier to critique someone else when you hide from stating your own opinion until you wait for the results.

Elway777
04-29-2009, 02:38 AM
Do I even need to comment? I really think Chis Baker is a real good football player and the Broncos got a 2 round Dt in terms of talent. Baker was not involved in drugs and I don't see any future problems with him. He was the best defensive lineman on Penn states football team when he played for them.

cutthemdown
04-29-2009, 02:43 AM
IMO Broncos figure they need corners because Bly was let go and Bailey was hurt a lot last yr. Also If this yr not fun at all for Bailey he may ask to be traded. Also if his little brother gets shown the door he may not want to stick around.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2009, 02:52 AM
I really think Chis Baker is a real good football player and the Broncos got a 2 round Dt in terms of talent. Baker was not involved in drugs and I don't see any future problems with him. He was the best defensive lineman on Penn states football team when he played for them.
Not really the point I was addressing.

I won't pretend to know if Baker's a bad guy or not, but he got arrested a 2nd time while waiting trial on an assault charge. Why exactly do you think his problems are behind him?

We all seen what talented athletes with poor character are capable of. I was under the impression McD was only interested in high character guys. Ayers also has an assault charge. Maybe these guys are fine...maybe not. I doubt we'll know for some time which is true.

outdoor_miner
04-29-2009, 08:43 AM
It just a white wash footsteps. Had we taken a guy like Brace or traded up for Raji, they'd be all over McD's nuts for that too. These people have no real football opinions and only post things that agree with the flavor of the month and then enjoy piling on the bandwagon part of the internet when anyone disagree's with their "analysis".

We didn't take a DT? Wasn't any worth taking. We took 3 DTs? Wow look at McD fixing that DL. These people have no hard opinions before the draft, and none after. They just regurgitae the company line. And really that's fine. Not everyone here is in the same league when it comes to football knowldge. But it gets real grating listening to these idiots to puke out stupid crap to defend anything this team does.

It's particularly funny the guys that don't understand how you draft and how you evaluate a draft. I love the pass card they play "you can't really evaluate a draft until X years have passed." Yeah, that is true. However, that's not how teams draft. They dont' wait 5 years after a guy gets out of college to have the draft.

You draft based on your scouting, BPA, needs, etc. When you trade a 1st round pick to move some spots in the 2nd round for a position that isn't a need, that's a questionable move and we have every right to doubt it. Those type's of things can certainly (and are) critiqued at the time they occur.

Just curious - does it mean nothing to you that Nolan was almost certainly involved in the decision making process for the defense? If the DEs and DTs were rated low and not identified as a priority, don't you think Nolan had some say in this? It just seems that Nolan must believe he can make it work with what he has up front. That gives me some faith in these moves. They clearly have a theme surrounding creating turnovers, which has been a clear trait of all the players brought in in the secondary...

Granted, I am admittedly just a fan. I do not have serious Xs and Os experience, so I do tend to put my faith in the coaches' plan. However, logically, it makes sense to me that Nolan and McDaniels are working in lock-step to build the defense, and I guess that gives me some comfort in the decisions that are made. Particularly in identifying where the "needs" of the team lie. My impression is that Nolan is a highly respected coordinator throughout the league, and one of those guys who's a better coordinator than HC. I guess if you disagree that he's a good coordinator, I could see why you would be extremely nervous about what's happening with the D. If, however, you think Nolan knows what he's doing, doesn't that help accept the decisions that were made?