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View Full Version : Broncos have signed 3 or 4 Defensive Front 7 guys that can make our final roster


Carmelo15
04-27-2009, 05:00 AM
Almost everyone on this board was whining about the Broncos ignoring their needs in the front 7. McDaniels simply stuck to his board and drafted the right way. Looking at who we have brought in, I see some real nice impact players. Two websites that have broken down positional rankings specific to the 3-4 defense would attest to this. The National Football Post and Draft Daddy:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/04/nfp-specialty-rankings-3-4-defense/
http://draftdaddy.com/ranks/top10_DT.htm

Chris Baker, NT, Hampton - #4 NT NFP, #3 NT Draft Daddy
- Both Ranked Baker higher as a NT than:
- Terrance Knighton, Temple - 72nd pick (3rd Round)
- Roy Miller, Texas - 81st Pick (3rd Round)
- Vaughn Martin, W Ontario - 113th Pick (4th Round)
- Sammie Lee Hill, Stillman - 115th Pick (4th round)
- Terrance Taylor, Michigan - 136th Pick (4th Round)
- Myron Pryor, Kentucky - 207th Pick (6th Round)

Everette Pedescleaux, DE, Northern Iowa - #5 3-4 DE NFP, #6 Draft Daddy
- Ranked higher as a 3-4 DE than:
- Matt Shaughnessy, Wisconsin - 71st Pick (3rd Round)
- Kyle Moore, USC - 117th Pick (4th Round)

Lee Robinson, OLB, Alcorn St - #6 3-4 OLB NFP
- Ranked higher as a 3-4 OLB than:
- Cody Brown, UConn - 63rd Pick (2nd Round)
- Victor Butler, Oregon St - 110th Pick (4th Round)
- Slade Norris, Oregon St - 126th Pick (4th Round)

Rulon Davis, DE, California - #8 3-4 DE Draft Daddy

Then another guy we signed that I am excited about is Domonique Johnson the cornerback out of Jackson State. He is a big, athletic corner with some nice ball skills. To me he's a poor man's Domonique Rodgers-Cromartie. ESPN Scout's Inc has him ranked ahead of these corners that were drafted:
- Bradley Fletcher, Iowa - 66th Pick (3rd Round)
- Derek Cox, William & Mary - 73rd Pick (3rd Round)
- William Middleton, Furman - 138th Pick (5th Round)
- Joe Burnett, UCF - 168th Pick (5th Round)

I think Domonique Johnson has a shot to make the roster as well, possibly beating out both Josh Bell and Jack Williams. He fits Mike Nolan's defense much better than these two and could see the field in our dime package.

Chris Baker and Everette Pedescleaux have a real good chance to make the team, with Rulon Davis a fairly solid chance as well. In Lee Robinson I could definitely see this guy beating out Tim Crowder at OLB. I wouldn't be surprised if he made the team over Jarvis Moss (hopefully I'm wrong about that).

The Joker
04-27-2009, 05:12 AM
The UDFA signings have definitely helped settle my nerves a bit more regarding our D-Line depth.

All in all I'm happy enough with the players we've added this weekend.

Moreno's addition will push the O back into the upper echelons of the NFL rankings after the loss of Cutler, while Ayers has the potential to develop into a real playmaker and we've added a lot of talent to what was an absolutely deplorable secondary. We've also added a developmental QB and brought in some guys that should really help us on Special Teams.

Ideally we could have added more D-Line talent on Day 1, and I was surprised we didn't take Brace with our first second rounder. But I'm not overly upset about that.

My one major gripe is that trading for Alphonso may end up costing us a shot at Terrence Cody next year, something we may really end up regretting.

Atwater His Ass
04-27-2009, 05:18 AM
You guys are idiots. Marcus Thomas has more starts than all of our other DL combined. Yeah, signing UDFA is the answer. Ok.

You ever stop to wonder why our DL has been the worst in the NFL over the last decade?

Drek
04-27-2009, 05:25 AM
You guys are idiots. Marcus Thomas has more starts than all of our other DL combined. Yeah, signing UDFA is the answer. Ok.

You ever stop to wonder why our DL has been the worst in the NFL over the last decade?

Because when we drafted DL we reached on lesser talent, and then kept sending them out on the field trying to ignore the fact that they were busts?

Thats what we've done recently anyways.

Broncoman13
04-27-2009, 05:26 AM
If there wasn't better talent in the draft then there just wasn't better talent in the draft. That simple.

I've got some sleep. Feel good about most of the picks. Still DO NOT feel good about giving up so much value for #37 (Alphonso Smith). I like that McD wants to get the ball back and force some turnovers. I like what I read from Lex last night (even if it was posted initially by someone else) about the safeties being the main reason our CBs played 10 yard cushions. We addressed that problem...or at least I hope we did!!!

Broncoman13
04-27-2009, 05:31 AM
BTW, Chris Baker would have made me happy in the 4th round. To get him as a UDFA is certainly a big coup for McD.

Atwater His Ass
04-27-2009, 05:53 AM
Because when we drafted DL we reached on lesser talent, and then kept sending them out on the field trying to ignore the fact that they were busts?

Thats what we've done recently anyways.

and trading first round picks for CB's really helps huh? that's a little more recent history for you.

Florida_Bronco
04-27-2009, 05:56 AM
Because when we drafted DL we reached on lesser talent, and then kept sending them out on the field trying to ignore the fact that they were busts?

Thats what we've done recently anyways.

And we sent them out there to be coached by a man who just yelled at his players and never taught them anything.

Personally, I lay the DL failures in Burney's lap. He'd been here since 2002 and the only DL that developed in that time (Dumervil) was a great technician coming out of college.

Atwater His Ass
04-27-2009, 06:09 AM
So basically this thread is touting UDFA that can come in and beat our veteran DL out for jobs? Yeah, sounds like the foundation of a great DL for years to come.

Good thing we drafted 3 DB's in the draft to compliment these guys huh? Man I was getting worried we were over stocked on DL talent to support all those DB's we need to get our defense over the hump of being the worst in the league.

Harvitz81
04-27-2009, 06:26 AM
So basically this thread is touting UDFA that can come in and beat our veteran DL out for jobs? Yeah, sounds like the foundation of a great DL for years to come.

Good thing we drafted 3 DB's in the draft to compliment these guys huh? Man I was getting worried we were over stocked on DL talent to support all those DB's we need to get our defense over the hump of being the worst in the league.

Pat Williams was undrafted and look at him now. Defensive lineman take a couple years to develop anyway. If we would have drafted some in the 2-4th round, they still would have taken several years to make an impact. People were wanting to draft Baker in the 4th or 5th and now we get him as an UFA. Maybe he makes a Woodyard impact.

Regarding the 1st rounder for Smith. If he ends up being a starter for us, then that is a pick better spent than on the likes of Moss, O'Neal, Middlebrooks, Lelie, etc...

eddie mac
04-27-2009, 06:47 AM
Because when we drafted DL we reached on lesser talent, and then kept sending them out on the field trying to ignore the fact that they were busts?

Thats what we've done recently anyways.

Drek hits the nail on the head again but no some ****nuggets who've been on this site for years still want the likes of Gilbert, Moala, Everette Brown, Orakpo when not one of the ****ers ended up on a 3-4 team.

That must mean all the 3-4 HC's are idiots???

As a side note McDaniels actually said if we could incorporate a swimming pool around the halfway line he'd have considered drafting the Youtube kid.

socalorado
04-27-2009, 07:37 AM
DEN signed Baker? That is really good news.
Honestly, from what ive read, this guy really could become a solid player.
Small scholl prospect who got overlooked.
Also, i dont think Josh Bell just gets beat out.
I think if there was a pass rush or some serious pressure on the QB, Bell is a solid starter. he played really well condidering. I think Hes a keeper.

uplink
04-27-2009, 07:48 AM
Nice thread with alot of good info, thanks

barryr
04-27-2009, 07:50 AM
Yeah, the Broncos should draft mediocre DL, which they have done plenty the last 10 years to satisfy idiot fans who think they should keep doing that.

Looks like some good signings to me. Guys who figured to be drafted and weren't. But the idiots who claim this isn't the way to go would have been happy if the Broncos had drafted these guys instead of waiting for them to go undrafted. Yeah, really makes sense here.

Drek
04-27-2009, 07:53 AM
Drek hits the nail on the head again but no some ****nuggets who've been on this site for years still want the likes of Gilbert, Moala, Everette Brown, Orakpo when not one of the ****ers ended up on a 3-4 team.

That must mean all the 3-4 HC's are idiots???

As a side note McDaniels actually said if we could incorporate a swimming pool around the halfway line he'd have considered drafting the Youtube kid.

Apparently so. See, some guy who writes a blog things Gilbert has tons of upside so all these teams must be completely clueless to pass on him. I mean ****, have you seen him jump out of the pool? Thats more impressive than back flips right there.

uplink
04-27-2009, 08:25 AM
not drafting afront 7 defensive players probably helped in the bargaining to
get some of these 3-4 prospects to sign. So it might work out best in the long run.

barryr
04-27-2009, 08:28 AM
So making the move to get Alphonso Smith was "bad value", but drafting DL who ended up going undrafted would have been good value? Makes sense.

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 08:38 AM
This is ridiculous. There was plenty of reason Baker was NOT drafted. He got kicked off the Football team at Penn State, played marginally at a small school after that, and declared early when everyone said he needed another year to be ready. Yes, he is a big body. So freaking what? That does not make a DL!

Pedescleaux is a solid pick, but he has about zero chance of playing next year IMHO. Dude was not even a STARTER at a small school! He has a frame worth developing as a UDFA, but this is another "expert" trying to hit a home run mention.

Lee Robinson is another developmental guy who lacks any real change of direction skills. MUST play in a 3-4 system and will only be valuable inside a small area.

Dominique Johnson might be the best of the bunch. He has the skills, just not the savy. He needs reps and might be a ST'er right away.

CEH
04-27-2009, 08:43 AM
You guys are idiots. Marcus Thomas has more starts than all of our other DL combined. Yeah, signing UDFA is the answer. Ok.

You ever stop to wonder why our DL has been the worst in the NFL over the last decade?

McD was on TV last night and when Vic asked him about not drafting front seven he wnt to the "Well we resigned Kenny Peterson and Darrell Reid" card to justify picking only one DLineman.

and we couldn't even get a 7th for Moss. Moss is toast

Should have traded the 2 3rds for a '10 2nd like NE did that would have soften the blow of the A Smith trade.

socalorado
04-27-2009, 08:45 AM
This is ridiculous. There was plenty of reason Baker was NOT drafted. He got kicked off the Football team at Penn State, played marginally at a small school after that, and declared early when everyone said he needed another year to be ready. Yes, he is a big body. So freaking what? That does not make a DL!

Pedescleaux is a solid pick, but he has about zero chance of playing next year IMHO. Dude was not even a STARTER at a small school! He has a frame worth developing as a UDFA, but this is another "expert" trying to hit a home run mention.

Lee Robinson is another developmental guy who lacks any real change of direction skills. MUST play in a 3-4 system and will only be valuable inside a small area.

Dominique Johnson might be the best of the bunch. He has the skills, just not the savy. He needs reps and might be a ST'er right away.

And that about wraps it up.......smoke em if you got em.

gunns
04-27-2009, 08:48 AM
If there wasn't better talent in the draft then there just wasn't better talent in the draft. That simple.

I've got some sleep. Feel good about most of the picks. Still DO NOT feel good about giving up so much value for #37 (Alphonso Smith). I like that McD wants to get the ball back and force some turnovers. I like what I read from Lex last night (even if it was posted initially by someone else) about the safeties being the main reason our CBs played 10 yard cushions. We addressed that problem...or at least I hope we did!!!

I agree. One thing I have to hand to McDaniels, at least the safety position was FINALLY addressed. That makes me very happy.

footstepsfrom#27
04-27-2009, 09:36 AM
Drek hits the nail on the head again but no some ****nuggets who've been on this site for years still want the likes of Gilbert, Moala, Everette Brown, Orakpo when not one of the ****ers ended up on a 3-4 team.

That must mean all the 3-4 HC's are idiots???
You might have a better point here if it weren't for the fact that we just drafted a guy who ALSO doesn't fit the 3-4 defense and fits within the group you just mentioned. Ayers at 272 is to small to play the DE spot and to slow for the OLB spot. He's just as much a hybrid, if not more so...than Orapko, at least in a 3-4 defense. He's 10 pounds bigger but nowhere near as strong or fast. Can he play in this defense? Maybe so...but he's certainly no more qualified based on what he did at the combine or in college, where he basically showed up part of his senior year and for the Senior Bowl and put up very mediocre combine results. Lots of people think he's a one year wonder.

Since you're suggesting the other guys were unfit for the 3-4, upon what basis is Ayers more fit?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-27-2009, 09:40 AM
This is ridiculous. There was plenty of reason Baker was NOT drafted. He got kicked off the Football team at Penn State, played marginally at a small school after that, and declared early when everyone said he needed another year to be ready. Yes, he is a big body. So freaking what? That does not make a DL!

Pedescleaux is a solid pick, but he has about zero chance of playing next year IMHO. Dude was not even a STARTER at a small school! He has a frame worth developing as a UDFA, but this is another "expert" trying to hit a home run mention.

Lee Robinson is another developmental guy who lacks any real change of direction skills. MUST play in a 3-4 system and will only be valuable inside a small area.

Dominique Johnson might be the best of the bunch. He has the skills, just not the savy. He needs reps and might be a ST'er right away.


Well, to be fair, Baker did flash as a Sophomore while at Penn State. Assuming he had avoided brawling, and built on his Sophmore season, he might have been a very high draft selection in this weak DT draft. I don't think its really fair to say he was marginal at Hampton. He had a very good season playing as a 5 Tech. UCONN is in that conference as well and nobody dings those players for being successful at a "small school".

But you are right in that Baker is a risk. From my research, I've concluded, personally, that he has shown remorse for his problems at Penn State, and at least one of which I do not fault him for. And his teammates at Hampton liked him, and his coach thought he was a hard worker.

Maybe after Penn State and not getting drafted, this guy is humbled enough to just let his talent show. Again, as a DT at Penn State as a Sophomore playing part time, he was very impressive. His body of work last year at Hampton as a 5-Tech is very impressive, especially since he was probably receiving all the attention from the opposing blocking schemes.

I think we can afford to have some optimism here. I don't understand why it needs to be curbed or crushed by others.

Ambiguous
04-27-2009, 09:49 AM
Well, to be fair, Baker did flash a Sophomore while at Penn State. .

This is how I read this at first. :thumbsup:

RMT
04-27-2009, 09:56 AM
You guys are idiots. Marcus Thomas has more starts than all of our other DL combined. Yeah, signing UDFA is the answer. Ok.

You ever stop to wonder why our DL has been the worst in the NFL over the last decade?

and if Shanahan got 10 years worth of grace to make that mistake over and over and over - McDaniel's certainly deserves the benefit of the doubt his first year.

Old Dude
04-27-2009, 10:00 AM
Baker actually played pretty well for Hampton. In 2008 (in the one year he played at Hampton, following the transfer from Penn State) he had 69 tackles, 16 1/2 tackles for loss, and 8 1/2 sacks. That's not bad at all.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-27-2009, 10:01 AM
This is how I read this at first. :thumbsup:

He very well might have done that as well. He strikes me as a massive man-boob type of guy.

broncocalijohn
04-27-2009, 10:15 AM
So basically this thread is touting UDFA that can come in and beat our veteran DL out for jobs? Yeah, sounds like the foundation of a great DL for years to come.

Good thing we drafted 3 DB's in the draft to compliment these guys huh? Man I was getting worried we were over stocked on DL talent to support all those DB's we need to get our defense over the hump of being the worst in the league.

this is how i read it. These guys are such upcoming stars in the NFL that not even the Patriots saw their potential and signed them before us (Pats being the experts of the draft). So the thread starter thinks these guys are going to make the roster.....big fing deal. We need guys to start and be a star. We had a chance to get a DL in the 12th pick, take Moreno in the 18th and then move up from our 2nd pick to thake Ayers. I guarantee we would not need to give up next year's BRONCOS #1 pick that can be a possible top 10 pick. Absolutely over spent via trading of draft picks. I think our two top guys can play but we needed front 3/4 help right away.

barryr
04-27-2009, 10:18 AM
So DL that are drafted in the 1st round are guaranteed stars? Hello Jarvis Moss.

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 10:19 AM
Well, to be fair, Baker did flash as a Sophomore while at Penn State. Assuming he had avoided brawling, and built on his Sophmore season, he might have been a very high draft selection in this weak DT draft. I don't think its really fair to say he was marginal at Hampton. He had a very good season playing as a 5 Tech. UCONN is in that conference as well and nobody dings those players for being successful at a "small school".

But you are right in that Baker is a risk. From my research, I've concluded, personally, that he has shown remorse for his problems at Penn State, and at least one of which I do not fault him for. And his teammates at Hampton liked him, and his coach thought he was a hard worker.

Maybe after Penn State and not getting drafted, this guy is humbled enough to just let his talent show. Again, as a DT at Penn State as a Sophomore playing part time, he was very impressive. His body of work last year at Hampton as a 5-Tech is very impressive, especially since he was probably receiving all the attention from the opposing blocking schemes.

I think we can afford to have some optimism here. I don't understand why it needs to be curbed or crushed by others.


UCONN plays in the Big East, Hampton does not. They play in The MEAC ;D

As for Baker, I have very different info on him than you do. I heard his decision making on and off the filed is very poor. His body of work @ Hampton was inconsistent and he lacked stamina to play more than in rotation. He handled marginal players and was occasionally effective versus similar competition. I did not see him much @ Penn State, so I won't Comment on him there.

As for the optimism, that is up to you. I am just sick and tired of every questionable DL coming to DEN with Optimism. Marcus Thomas is the Only DL in the last 3 years that has done Anything worth mentioning and even he is a marginal NFL starter. Dumervil has regressed and is now having to learn multiple positions. All the rest are camp fodder candidates in most TC's.

DL is a Talent heavy position in the NFL. It is about trench warfare here, where the better player often wins. The DL in DEN has been a joke since 2003. Adding UDFA's is not going to solve that problem, even if Baker may very well end up being a player. At Best, I see him as a backup Rotational DE.

I am glad they brought these guys in to compete, but the DL talent on this team has NEVER performed at this Level. I just want the DL to be above average again and acquiring the majority of your DL through UDFA and FA is not going to cut it. Add to that the questionable picks in 2007, Ayers this year, and this is very ridiculous to me.

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 10:24 AM
So DL that are drafted in the 1st round are guaranteed stars? Hello Jarvis Moss.

No, And I doubt anyone says that, but you never know around here.

However, the odds are much higher these days that a top DL will come from the top 3 rounds. Not many UDFA's or for that matter fifth, six, or seventh rounders starting on the DL in the NFL. And, those that are, are quickly being replaced ASAP.

broncocalijohn
04-27-2009, 10:35 AM
So DL that are drafted in the 1st round are guaranteed stars? Hello Jarvis Moss.

you also forgot to list those top 12 DL that did become instant starters. Start naming all the Unsigned free agents in the last ten years and then highlight in bold that started and underline those that are considered stars. Draft isnt a guarantee but i have a feeling my method is going to produce more than your theory.

McDman
04-27-2009, 10:42 AM
He very well might have done that as well. He strikes me as a massive man-boob type of guy.

Nice to see you on the OM, you're one of the best posters at BM.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-27-2009, 10:44 AM
UCONN plays in the Big East, Hampton does not. They play in The MEAC ;D

As for Baker, I have very different info on him than you do. I heard his decision making on and off the filed is very poor. His body of work @ Hampton was inconsistent and he lacked stamina to play more than in rotation. He handled marginal players and was occasionally effective versus similar competition. I did not see him much @ Penn State, so I won't Comment on him there.

As for the optimism, that is up to you. I am just sick and tired of every questionable DL coming to DEN with Optimism. Marcus Thomas is the Only DL in the last 3 years that has done Anything worth mentioning and even he is a marginal NFL starter. Dumervil has regressed and is now having to learn multiple positions. All the rest are camp fodder candidates in most TC's.

DL is a Talent heavy position in the NFL. It is about trench warfare here, where the better player often wins. The DL in DEN has been a joke since 2003. Adding UDFA's is not going to solve that problem, even if Baker may very well end up being a player. At Best, I see him as a backup Rotational DE.

I am glad they brought these guys in to compete, but the DL talent on this team has NEVER performed at this Level. I just want the DL to be above average again and acquiring the majority of your DL through UDFA and FA is not going to cut it. Add to that the questionable picks in 2007, Ayers this year, and this is very ridiculous to me.


That's an understandable point of view, and I share it to a degree. Especially the latter part of your post, though I do trust Mike Mayock's assessment of Ayers. Mayock has been stellar in the past with his assessments.

You are correct on the UCONN/Big East statement. I apologize for my ignorance. That makes your level of competition argument persuasive.

Baker's odds of sticking and being effective are 50/50, probably even less than that. I just didn't see much value in this draft at DT after Raji. Even Brace, with a possibly chronic back injury, seemed risky. So, in my mind, Baker is as likely to hit as any DT we might have drafted. I think his talent is solid, its his head that is in question, and from all his interviews (linked below), I think he seems like a good person. His coaches are backing him up in regards to character. I believe he might prove to be a steal in the end, so I'll withhold optimism that he shows us something in camp, but I do agree that it would be nice if we could spend some top draft selections on D-line talent.



Here are three different interviews with Baker, if nothing else, it gives a better insight to the player since he is now our best hope at having an effective NT.

http://draftzoo.com/2009/04/chris-baker-interview/

http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Draft-Bible-Q-A/chris_baker_interview.html

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PswS1iaegD0J:gnb.scout.com/2/853598.html

Rohirrim
04-27-2009, 10:45 AM
Broncofan is so desperate he gets worked up over UDFAs. ROFL!

Of the DL guys mentioned the only one I thought could really play NT was Fili Moala. He got double-teamed a lot in college and was still very effective. Didn't have a whole lot of weight to add. Still, he would have been a project. I would have taken him over McBath. Maybe not over William Moore. ???

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-27-2009, 10:56 AM
Nice to see you on the OM, you're one of the best posters at BM.

Thanks! This is a really good website. Hopefully I can contribute something every now and then. I like the idea of being able to get more opinions, I've heard there are alot of intelligent posters here, though it's tough to really get into a new site with limited time.

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 11:03 AM
That's an understandable point of view, and I share it to a degree. Especially the latter part of your post, though I do trust Mike Mayock's assessment of Ayers. Mayock has been stellar in the past with his assessments.

You are correct on the UCONN/Big East statement. I apologize for my ignorance. That makes your level of competition argument persuasive.

Baker's odds of sticking and being effective are 50/50, probably even less than that. I just didn't see much value in this draft at DT after Raji. Even Brace, with a possibly chronic back injury, seemed risky. So, in my mind, Baker is as likely to hit as any DT we might have drafted. I think his talent is solid, its his head that is in question, and from all his interviews (linked below), I think he seems like a good person. His coaches are backing him up in regards to character. I believe he might prove to be a steal in the end, so I'll withhold optimism that he shows us something in camp, but I do agree that it would be nice if we could spend some top draft selections on D-line talent.



Here are three different interviews with Baker, if nothing else, it gives a better insight to the player since he is now our best hope at having an effective NT.

http://draftzoo.com/2009/04/chris-baker-interview/

http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Draft-Bible-Q-A/chris_baker_interview.html

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PswS1iaegD0J:gnb.scout.com/2/853598.html

I love Mayock, But we look for different things in Different positions. The one thing we look for different is DL. Ayers scares the crap out of me, but so does BJ Raji. I would have hated DEN for picking him @ 12.

As for Baker, I am confident in the Info I have on him. I have some good sources.

Don't worry about the MEAC/Big East thing. It happens, we all make little mistakes.

My point is that no team in the NFL can readily get away with using the personnel selection on DL that DEN has done for the last decade. INDY has gotten away with some no name DT's, but they have 2 of the most feared DE's in the game right now to go with that. And, they just took 2 DT's to bolster the run defense and get inside push on the pocket. It's just a stopgap solution to play UDFA's on the DL.

HEAV
04-27-2009, 11:10 AM
I like Chris Baker the football player, but Chris Baker the person scares me. He also scared the 32 NFL teams that didn't draft him.


Again anything can happen with UDFA. There's talent out there, the draft isn't 12 rounds anymore and players fall for one reason or another. If a player really wants it like a Rod Smith than that player will earn it.

Drek
04-27-2009, 11:12 AM
My point is that no team in the NFL can readily get away with using the personnel selection on DL that DEN has done for the last decade. INDY has gotten away with some no name DT's, but they have 2 of the most feared DE's in the game right now to go with that. And, they just took 2 DT's to bolster the run defense and get inside push on the pocket. It's just a stopgap solution to play UDFA's on the DL.

I completely agree with you that we need to invest early round picks on the DL.

But do you think this was the draft class to do it in? We're both in agreement that Raji is a big boom/bust type and he's a far superior prospect than the #2 NT type in this draft, his former teammate Ron Brace.

Sure sucks that we're making this defensive changeover in a year where a solid 5-tech goes 3rd overall and a boom/bust DT who isn't even a great fit for NT goes 9th, but thats what happened. I prefer that we stayed focused on getting good value for our selections and not just trying to fill the check boxes on needs.

chickennob2
04-27-2009, 11:15 AM
I love Mayock, But we look for different things in Different positions. The one thing we look for different is DL. Ayers scares the crap out of me, but so does BJ Raji. I would have hated DEN for picking him @ 12.

As for Baker, I am confident in the Info I have on him. I have some good sources.

Don't worry about the MEAC/Big East thing. It happens, we all make little mistakes.

My point is that no team in the NFL can readily get away with using the personnel selection on DL that DEN has done for the last decade. INDY has gotten away with some no name DT's, but they have 2 of the most feared DE's in the game right now to go with that. And, they just took 2 DT's to bolster the run defense and get inside push on the pocket. It's just a stopgap solution to play UDFA's on the DL.


I don't know if that's necessarily true. If a player is undrafted for character concerns, then his on-field performance shouldn't get the blanket categorization as "an undrafted player". Also, this depends on your definition of stopgap. Will we try to replace him in the future? Almost certainly. Will he be able to play at an acceptable level and contribute to the team? It is a very real possibility. And from an UDFA, isn't that enough? You said you don't like Raji. Is there any NT in this draft you would rather have had Denver pick (character issues aside, purely on-field performance) ? I see this kid as one of the best solutions we could find this weekend to the NT spot. Is it fixed for the next 10 years? Absolutely not. Is it better than it was on Friday? In my mind, yes.

Sure, the kid could punch out a waitress and be out of the league before next week. But if he keeps his head on straight, I think he can help the team. And given that we didn't have to spend a draft pick on him, I think signing him was possibly the best solution to the NT spot we could have found this weekend.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-27-2009, 11:35 AM
I love Mayock, But we look for different things in Different positions. The one thing we look for different is DL. Ayers scares the crap out of me, but so does BJ Raji. I would have hated DEN for picking him @ 12.

As for Baker, I am confident in the Info I have on him. I have some good sources.

Don't worry about the MEAC/Big East thing. It happens, we all make little mistakes.

My point is that no team in the NFL can readily get away with using the personnel selection on DL that DEN has done for the last decade. INDY has gotten away with some no name DT's, but they have 2 of the most feared DE's in the game right now to go with that. And, they just took 2 DT's to bolster the run defense and get inside push on the pocket. It's just a stopgap solution to play UDFA's on the DL.

If you were not high on Raji or Ayers, but wanted us to spend early selections on the D-line, which players did you really like?

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 11:50 AM
I don't know if that's necessarily true. If a player is undrafted for character concerns, then his on-field performance shouldn't get the blanket categorization as "an undrafted player". Also, this depends on your definition of stopgap. Will we try to replace him in the future? Almost certainly. Will he be able to play at an acceptable level and contribute to the team? It is a very real possibility. And from an UDFA, isn't that enough? You said you don't like Raji. Is there any NT in this draft you would rather have had Denver pick (character issues aside, purely on-field performance) ? I see this kid as one of the best solutions we could find this weekend to the NT spot. Is it fixed for the next 10 years? Absolutely not. Is it better than it was on Friday? In my mind, yes.

Sure, the kid could punch out a waitress and be out of the league before next week. But if he keeps his head on straight, I think he can help the team. And given that we didn't have to spend a draft pick on him, I think signing him was possibly the best solution to the NT spot we could have found this weekend.

Again, Baker was not a top 2 rounds talent guy with Character concerns! He was maybe a 4-5th talent guy with questionable football and personal character strikes. That is why he went undrafted.

As for other 3-4 NT's, I have long said Dorell Scott is my favorite NT prospect from this draft. He has elite physical tools and suffered because of Injury and poor team play last year. He was a first round graded player as a Sophomore and Junior, but he was not the same player consistently as a Senior for those above reasons.

Some of the NFL's elite NT's were not first rounders. Kris Jenkins, Shaun Rodgers, and Jamal Williams Were all second rounders. Williams was a supplemental second. Others are Jason Ferguson of DAL, Kelly Gregg of BAL, and Jay Ratliffe. NT is very important in this scheme, but it takes a mental aptitude that a lot of players like Raji do not have coming out. It Takes being a team first guy who does the dirty work so the LB's can make the plays and stay clean.

Baker does not show that mentality in film or deed. So, is it better than FRI? I do not think so, and there were a couple others who would do that better than Baker.

BroncoMan4ever
04-27-2009, 11:50 AM
DEN signed Baker? That is really good news.
Honestly, from what ive read, this guy really could become a solid player.
Small scholl prospect who got overlooked.
Also, i dont think Josh Bell just gets beat out.
I think if there was a pass rush or some serious pressure on the QB, Bell is a solid starter. he played really well condidering. I think Hes a keeper.

i agree. Mother****er is the guy i think may end up on the outside looking in when Smith takes his job.

I see Champ and Hill Starting. Bell coming in for the Nickel, and Smith on the Dime. With as the season goes, SMith or Bell taking Hill's starting job.

400HZ
04-27-2009, 11:54 AM
this is how i read it. These guys are such upcoming stars in the NFL that not even the Patriots saw their potential and signed them before us (Pats being the experts of the draft). So the thread starter thinks these guys are going to make the roster.....big fing deal. We need guys to start and be a star. We had a chance to get a DL in the 12th pick, take Moreno in the 18th and then move up from our 2nd pick to thake Ayers. I guarantee we would not need to give up next year's BRONCOS #1 pick that can be a possible top 10 pick. Absolutely over spent via trading of draft picks. I think our two top guys can play but we needed front 3/4 help right away.

You watched too much Trey Wingo and Trent Dilfer this weekend. Bill Belichek would have gotten the fellatiating of a lifetime if he had showed up to the ESPN set yesterday.

Mediator12
04-27-2009, 12:01 PM
If you were not high on Raji or Ayers, but wanted us to spend early selections on the D-line, which players did you really like?

Tyson Jackson, Evander Hood, Fili Moala, Dorell Scott, Alex Magee, Paul Kruger, and Corvey Irvin. All top 3 round selections, except Scott who was the top of the 4th.

Jackson skyrocketed up the boards and was not going to be in play, But he would have been ideal at 12. There was so much trading going on that I am pissed they stuck with Ayers @ 18. They could have traded back and picked up Smith with a late first and used the second on one of the DT/5tech DE's.

However, they were quite content to go BPA and even trade up for a major BPA in Smith.

Triplelefthook
04-27-2009, 12:22 PM
Almost everyone on this board was whining about the Broncos ignoring their needs in the front 7. McDaniels simply stuck to his board and drafted the right way. Looking at who we have brought in, I see some real nice impact players. Two websites that have broken down positional rankings specific to the 3-4 defense would attest to this. The National Football Post and Draft Daddy:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/04/nfp-specialty-rankings-3-4-defense/
http://draftdaddy.com/ranks/top10_DT.htm

Chris Baker, NT, Hampton - #4 NT NFP, #3 NT Draft Daddy
- Both Ranked Baker higher as a NT than:
- Terrance Knighton, Temple - 72nd pick (3rd Round)
- Roy Miller, Texas - 81st Pick (3rd Round)
- Vaughn Martin, W Ontario - 113th Pick (4th Round)
- Sammie Lee Hill, Stillman - 115th Pick (4th round)
- Terrance Taylor, Michigan - 136th Pick (4th Round)
- Myron Pryor, Kentucky - 207th Pick (6th Round)

Everette Pedescleaux, DE, Northern Iowa - #5 3-4 DE NFP, #6 Draft Daddy
- Ranked higher as a 3-4 DE than:
- Matt Shaughnessy, Wisconsin - 71st Pick (3rd Round)
- Kyle Moore, USC - 117th Pick (4th Round)

Lee Robinson, OLB, Alcorn St - #6 3-4 OLB NFP
- Ranked higher as a 3-4 OLB than:
- Cody Brown, UConn - 63rd Pick (2nd Round)
- Victor Butler, Oregon St - 110th Pick (4th Round)
- Slade Norris, Oregon St - 126th Pick (4th Round)

Rulon Davis, DE, California - #8 3-4 DE Draft Daddy

Then another guy we signed that I am excited about is Domonique Johnson the cornerback out of Jackson State. He is a big, athletic corner with some nice ball skills. To me he's a poor man's Domonique Rodgers-Cromartie. ESPN Scout's Inc has him ranked ahead of these corners that were drafted:
- Bradley Fletcher, Iowa - 66th Pick (3rd Round)
- Derek Cox, William & Mary - 73rd Pick (3rd Round)
- William Middleton, Furman - 138th Pick (5th Round)
- Joe Burnett, UCF - 168th Pick (5th Round)

I think Domonique Johnson has a shot to make the roster as well, possibly beating out both Josh Bell and Jack Williams. He fits Mike Nolan's defense much better than these two and could see the field in our dime package.

Chris Baker and Everette Pedescleaux have a real good chance to make the team, with Rulon Davis a fairly solid chance as well. In Lee Robinson I could definitely see this guy beating out Tim Crowder at OLB. I wouldn't be surprised if he made the team over Jarvis Moss (hopefully I'm wrong about that).


Where did you find this?

McDman
04-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Thanks! This is a really good website. Hopefully I can contribute something every now and then. I like the idea of being able to get more opinions, I've heard there are alot of intelligent posters here, though it's tough to really get into a new site with limited time.

I'm more active at BM but this one is good as well.

Vegas_Bronco
04-27-2009, 01:01 PM
<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>CHRIS BAKER INFO

<TABLE class=teamheader cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=985 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=120 height=120>http://images.cbssports.com/images/football/nfl/players/60x80/1661883.jpg


</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=705 height=80><FORM style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; DISPLAY: inline; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><SELECT class=formdef onchange=" window.location.href=this.options[this.selectedIndex].value" name=pulldown><OPTION value="Select Other Positions" selected>Select Other Positions<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=C>Center<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=CB>Cornerbacks<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=DE>Defensive Ends<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=DT>Defensive Tackles<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=FS>Free Safeties<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=FB>Fullbacks<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=OG>Guards<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=ILB>Inside Linebackers<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=K>Kickers<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=OT>Offensive Tackles<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=OLB>Outside Linebackers<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=P>Punters<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=QB>Quarterbacks<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=RB>Running Backs<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=SS>Strong Safeties<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=TE>Tight Ends<OPTION value=/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?position=WR>Wide Receivers</OPTION></SELECT></FORM>
Chris Baker
Height: 6-2 | Weight: 308 | Position:DT | College: Hampton
<TABLE class=opttable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=center><TD class=optTabLeftBorder width=4> </TD><TD class=optTabOn>Player Profile (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1661883)</TD><TD class=optTabRightBorder width=4> </TD><TD class=optTabOff>Draft Tracker (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/drafttracker)</TD><TD class=optTabOff>Other DT (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/drafttracker/2009/position/DT)</TD><TD class=optTabOff>Hampton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/drafttracker/2009/school/)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=160 height=120></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Overview
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>Baker struggled with off-field incidents at Penn State. He was suspended from the team at the end of the 2007 season and finally dismissed from the Nittany Lions in July 2008 after pleading guilty to two counts of misdemeanor assault and criminal trespass following two fights in 2007. He received two years of probation. Baker showed versatility playing at defensive end in a 3-4 after starting the year at nose tackle for Hampton. He earned first-team All-MEAC honors with 62 tackles, 16.5 tackles for loss and 8.5 sacks. Baker and his family decided it was time to leave the Pirates after his redshirt junior season, but character concerns follow him into the NFL.
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<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>
Analysis
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>
Positives: Adequate build in the upper and lower body. Good quickness off the snap. Gets his hands into his man's jersey quickly, attacks a shoulder and constantly works to the quarterback. Can also extend his arms inside the numbers to get leverage and push into the backfield. Also able to stand up his man on run plays, use his upper-body strength to move him to either side and make a play on the ball. Uses arm-over move and violent hands to shoot the gap inside. Will split double-team blocks to pressure the passer. At end, he held his ground against the run and used his strength, hands and quickness to get by offensive tackles one-on-one. Shows fairly quick feet, can stay off cut blocks, chase down the line and hustle downfield to get to the ball. Doesn't back down from anyone. Negatives: Could work harder against double teams inside and too often stands around after initial contact. Must improve his awareness on misdirections and screens. Stamina is an issue, will be best as part of a rotation. Showed potential in Happy Valley, but his senior season production came against a lower level of competition at a position he might not play in the NFL. Character issues abound based on his record at Penn State.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>2007 Season</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>Started seven games, played in 11 for the Nittany Lions as a sophomore. Eight of his 37 tackles were for loss, including 4.5 sacks. Baker also broke up two passes at the line of scrimmage.
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<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>
2006 Season
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>In his first season on the field, Baker added depth to the defensive line and saw action in eight games. Baker helped Penn State continue to be one of the nation's top defenses, allowing just 87.5 rushing yards per game. He recorded six tackles (five solo), with two stops against Akron and two solo hits at Notre Dame, as well as solo hits in the Ohio State and Temple games. He was on the field for 69 plays, including 12 in the win over Tennessee in the Outback Bowl.
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<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>
2005 Season
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>Redshirt season.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>
High School
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD colSpan=2>Baker emerged as one of Connecticut's top linemen as a senior at Windsor HS. Playing for Coach Mark Welch, he was a starter on offense and defense in his final two seasons. A noted athlete, Baker did not play football his sophomore year in order to concentrate on basketball, but returned to the gridiron for two more highly successful seasons. Baker recorded 80 tackles his senior season, with 10 tackles for losses, including seven sacks. He was a first-team all-state selection by the Hartford Courant and a first-team all-conference pick his last two years.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=SLTables1 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=bg0><TD>
Personal
</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD colSpan=2>Full name is Christopher Isaiah Baker. He is enrolled in recreation, park and tourism management. Born October 8, 1987



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

ohiobronco2
04-27-2009, 01:28 PM
The more time I've had to come to grips with this draft, the less angry I am. I wish we would have went D at 12, but Jackson and Raji were both gone. Who else do you take that would make an impact that was worthy? I'm most upset about the trade for Smith. Next year's class will most likely feature Cody, Dunlap, and the DT for Oklahoma(his name escapes me at this time). I was hoping to add one of them to add to our D. Nice to see we are atleast adding some other guys for depth/competition.

Carmelo15
04-27-2009, 04:15 PM
Where did you find this?

Well the rankings of those players were done by Draft Daddy and The National Football Post. As for where the players were picked in the draft I just found that on espn.com. I don't know if that answers your question or not

elsid13
04-27-2009, 04:29 PM
Tyson Jackson, Evander Hood, Fili Moala, Dorell Scott, Alex Magee, Paul Kruger, and Corvey Irvin. All top 3 round selections, except Scott who was the top of the 4th.

Jackson skyrocketed up the boards and was not going to be in play, But he would have been ideal at 12. There was so much trading going on that I am pissed they stuck with Ayers @ 18. They could have traded back and picked up Smith with a late first and used the second on one of the DT/5tech DE's.

However, they were quite content to go BPA and even trade up for a major BPA in Smith.

Problem is Med, that wasn't someone in the room that had the experience and power to make the head coach wait. Because the coach got enamored with certain players, (that might have been there later) we lost a lot of flexibility. Gruden and Charlie Casserly had interesting segment during the draft coverage when the GM had to hold his coach in check because the coach got to aggressive wanting a player.

But back to point of this thread, at best the UDFA are development projects that might make some ST plays this year and could be rotational players in the future.

barryr
04-27-2009, 04:31 PM
you also forgot to list those top 12 DL that did become instant starters. Start naming all the Unsigned free agents in the last ten years and then highlight in bold that started and underline those that are considered stars. Draft isnt a guarantee but i have a feeling my method is going to produce more than your theory.

Instant starters who did what exactly? You can find as many starters on the DL that went in the 1st round as ones that are either out of the league or not doing much to justify going that high.