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View Full Version : What level of production will Alphonso Smith need to have to justify trading a 1st?


lex
04-26-2009, 09:18 AM
Just trying to guage what everyone is now expecting from Alphonso Smith since we traded a huge pick to get him. So what level of production justifies making this move, knowing that Champ Bailey has been wasted because there were flaws with other areas of our defense? So, what is it, 5 INTs and a returnd for a TD, with or without a pass rush?

OABB
04-26-2009, 09:19 AM
he'll need to break 2k

SouthStndJunkie
04-26-2009, 09:21 AM
It's not just about next year....it's about what he does in his career.

I expect a first round corner (and that is how we had him rated and what we gave up) to be an impact player, who makes a lot of plays....someone we can count on to cover some of the better receivers in the league.

I actually like Alphonso Smith....I just did not like the price we paid to get him.

go_broncos
04-26-2009, 09:22 AM
Just trying to guage what everyone is now expecting from Alphonso Smith since we traded a huge pick to get him. So what level of production justifies making this move, knowing that Champ Bailey has been wasted because there were flaws with other areas of our defense? So, what is it, 5 INTs and a returnd for a TD, with or without a pass rush?

I can't believe that we gave up our 1st round pick..

Mcd is an idiot and dumb and he is ruining our team..

Inkana7
04-26-2009, 09:24 AM
I can't believe that we gave up our 1st round pick..

Mcd is an idiot and dumb and he is ruining our team..

Because we were so ****ing good when he was hired.

I'm really high on the Smith pick. He's a player. Period. He'll start for us and play well for us. Who gives a **** if he's 5'9"?

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:26 AM
by his second year he had better
#1) Secure a starting spot
#2) lead our team in INTs-- with 5 or more

We gave up a top 10 pick in the 1st round to select him--so he is essentially a 2010 1st rounder with on the job training........

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:27 AM
Because we were so ****ing good when he was hired.

I'm really high on the Smith pick. He's a player. Period. He'll start for us and play well for us. Who gives a **** if he's 5'9"?

When? not next year he won't--unless we are planning on trading Champ after the draft.......

Inkana7
04-26-2009, 09:28 AM
When? not next year he won't--unless we are planning on trading Champ after the draft.......

Who's to say? What if he beats out Goodman this year? Injuries happen. Did anyone expect D-Will/Foxworth to start when the great Lenny Walls was here?

lex
04-26-2009, 09:28 AM
It's not just about next year....it's about what he does in his career.

I expect a first round corner (and that is how we had him rated and what we gave up) to be an impact player, who makes a lot of plays....someone we can count on to cover some of the better receivers in the league.

I actually like Alphonso Smith....I just did not like the price we paid to get him.
No it is about this year because that is what we had to forego if actually using the pick in the first. In other words, he will be weighed against who we could have had if we waited a year to use that pick in a higher spot. So its about this year and who we could have had.

If we need a NT in the worst way next year and we could have had Cody with that pick (or combined with the other one), its going to merit tremendous scrutiny.

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:29 AM
Because we were so ****ing good when he was hired.
I'm really high on the Smith pick. He's a player. Period. He'll start for us and play well for us. Who gives a **** if he's 5'9"?

and he made us WORSE by getting rid of our starting QB. You will be calling for McDOUCHES head by week 6............some of us are just ahead of the game.........

listopencil
04-26-2009, 09:30 AM
He'll have to start, and force teams to consider throwing at Bailey on a regular basis. Sound highly unlikely? It is, and that's why it was a stupid pick.

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:31 AM
Who's to say? What if he beats out Goodman this year? Injuries happen. Did anyone expect D-Will/Foxworth to start when the great Lenny Walls was here?

Was Lenny Walls a FA starter acquirred TO START before they were drafted? Has Goodman been part of an epic defensive meltdown by us in the playoffs? Goodman was brought in TO START. Now I see why so many on this board are still willing to give MCDOUCHE the benefit of the doubt--you have a hard time connecting facts together............

tsiguy96
04-26-2009, 09:32 AM
and he made us WORSE by getting rid of our starting QB. You will be calling for McDOUCHES head by week 6............some of us are just ahead of the game.........

unless we are 5-1, then morons like you will be screaming his praises acting like you never disliked him.

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:33 AM
unless we are 5-1, then morons like you will be screaming his praises acting like you never disliked him.

morons? Care to put your $$ where your mouth is?

lex
04-26-2009, 09:34 AM
Because we were so ****ing good when he was hired.

I'm really high on the Smith pick. He's a player. Period. He'll start for us and play well for us. Who gives a **** if he's 5'9"?
So, what level of production does he need to play at to justify the pick?

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 09:36 AM
unless we are 5-1, then morons like you will be screaming his praises acting like you never disliked him.

It ceases to amaze me that people can follow the same team, watch the same games, read the same articles and have totally different takes on our situation........when we get rolled by the BUNGLES in week 1-- only then will you get rid of your blind, and I do mean BLIND faith in the MCD regime.

uplink
04-26-2009, 09:36 AM
SBowl MVP + Rookie of the year

Hulamau
04-26-2009, 09:39 AM
I can't believe that we gave up our 1st round pick..

Mcd is an idiot and dumb and he is ruining our team..

Brilliant analysis :woowoo:

tsiguy96
04-26-2009, 09:45 AM
It ceases to amaze me that people can follow the same team, watch the same games, read the same articles and have totally different takes on our situation........when we get rolled by the BUNGLES in week 1-- only then will you get rid of your blind, and I do mean BLIND faith in the MCD regime.

blind faith, or waiting to see if the team is good before i start crying that the team will suck? we havent seen the team perform at ALL, so why start crying they will be absolutely awful?

idiots like you are the people who scream for us to draft the players you like, then those same players suck and you never own up to it. you think if we dont build the team the way you think it needs to be built, all is lost. mcdaniels is drafting tough, smart, team players. thats what we need.

OABB
04-26-2009, 09:47 AM
1 kickoff return. 1 single ****ing kickoff return will do it for me.


two words...

Vaughn Hebron....need I say more?

bpc
04-26-2009, 09:48 AM
The thing that Smith could bring to the table is impact within the passing game picking passes, blitzing on 3rd down from the slot as he's had success doing that in college and blocking kicks on special teams. If he can mix up yearly results with around 3-5 picks, a couple pick 6's, 2-4 sacks on the year or a bunch of tackles for loss and a couple game changing ST plays, then he'll be worth the choice. He'll have to give us a Leroy Butler type play just from the CB spot.

Gcver2ver3
04-26-2009, 09:48 AM
It ceases to amaze me that people can follow the same team, watch the same games, read the same articles and have totally different takes on our situation........when we get rolled by the BUNGLES in week 1-- only then will you get rid of your blind, and I do mean BLIND faith in the MCD regime.

you sound stupid...

Kaylore
04-26-2009, 09:49 AM
It depends on where our pick ends up and who gets picked around where we would have picked. I would say you better think he's Darrell Green (which we already know he's not because he doesn't run that fast.)

lex
04-26-2009, 09:51 AM
It depends on where our pick ends up and who gets picked around where we would have picked. I would say you better think he's Darrell Green (which we already know he's not because he doesn't run that fast.)

It goes beyond that. With two firsts we could have had the ammo to move up. This trade chops the leg from under that possibility.

nickademus
04-26-2009, 09:51 AM
This guy would need to be a day one starter. we gave up what could be better than a top ten pick next year so yea he has to play like a top ten pick.

Br0nc0Buster
04-26-2009, 09:53 AM
He needs to be at least a solid starter for his career with us.

If he can start and not be a liability, then it wasnt a bad move

He has lots of potential though, I have seen him compared to Asante Samuel before

Williams
04-26-2009, 09:54 AM
blind faith, or waiting to see if the team is good before i start crying that the team will suck? we havent seen the team perform at ALL, so why start crying they will be absolutely awful?



QFT. It seems like a vocal 1/4 of the posters here are emo p***ies and it's a crying shame they're probably grown men. Too bad when we dumped Cutler we couldnt throw in the whiney fans as some sort of "emo pu**y" package deal.

Gcver2ver3
04-26-2009, 09:55 AM
QFT. It seems like a vocal 1/4 of the posters here are emo p***ies and it's a crying shame they're probably grown men. Too bad when we dumped Cutler we couldnt throw in the whiney fans as some sort of "emo pu**y" package deal.

i agree with williams...

Jens1893
04-26-2009, 09:59 AM
Judging Corners by production is retarded.

Hulamau
04-26-2009, 10:03 AM
No it is about this year because that is what we had to forego if actually using the pick in the first. In other words, he will be weighed against who we could have had if we waited a year to use that pick in a higher spot. So its about this year and who we could have had.

If we need a NT in the worst way next year and we could have had Cody with that pick (or combined with the other one), its going to merit tremendous scrutiny.

And how pray tell can you be sure who we could have had next year??? The draft is pretty much a crap shoot straight up. Most prognosticators thought Tyson Jackson would for sure be there at 12 if not later.

Living in "If Only" land rarely works out in the long run. IF we need a NT next year I'm sure we'll make a real effort to get one. IF we need a QB we'll work that out as well and may well have a high one as it is.

I would have preferred giving up Chicago's first round to us next year to get Smith, but only because of their cream puff schedule,.

However, I like too that McD is confident we will be on the winning side of that bargain in any event, and he just might be right. If Cutler goes down, which is not unthinkable with his now porous O-line and his increasingly party-hardy ways, the Bears (Broncos) will be drafting in the top 5.

McD is trying to win sooner rather than later. You can fault his choices if you wish, and that's fine, but some of the doom and gloom guys here are acting like McD is just a reckless moron (not so much you lex) who is intentionally trying to destroy the club! I suppose they must view him as some evil 'Patriot Bot' that has been inserted like a deadly worm virus into the heart of Bronco Nation!

These decisions he has made are highly defensible, just as they can be questioned as well. Fair enough, but some of the guys here throwing in the towel on the team in April is simply childish lunacy.

Even if Cutler had stayed, and we hit a home run on each of our picks this year, we would still have a tall order making the playoffs with this schedule and with an all new system.

Why not give the guy the benefit of the doubt at least until some actual games take place??

randomtask
04-26-2009, 10:10 AM
A starting cornerback next year for at least 4 years.
At least 12 interceptions over that time period.

lex
04-26-2009, 10:12 AM
Judging Corners by production is retarded.
Then substitute "level of play" for "production".

p7superfly
04-26-2009, 10:31 AM
Devin Hester-like fairly soon.

Eventually, good, playmaking CB.

Otherwise, we got Ayers, and a midget for a franchise QB.

Seriously? **** that.

Time will tell, but anything less, and I'm livid... unless we jack Cassel from the Chiefs, and get Cody somehow next year.

footstepsfrom#27
04-26-2009, 10:31 AM
Measure getting him against the opportunity lost next season to move up for Sam Bradford. If this team finishes with the 5th pick in the draft and could have moved up to get Bradford had we not made this selection, his career will be judged by that. Apart from the loss of the pick, he should become a pro bowl CB within 3 years. That's essentially the expectation you have for a top 10 pick...and that's where we'll be next year...or would have been.

Hulamau
04-26-2009, 11:00 AM
QFT. It seems like a vocal 1/4 of the posters here are emo p***ies and it's a crying shame they're probably grown men. Too bad when we dumped Cutler we couldnt throw in the whiney fans as some sort of "emo pu**y" package deal.

Amen Williams!

lex
04-26-2009, 11:04 AM
And how pray tell can you be sure who we could have had next year??? The draft is pretty much a crap shoot straight up. Most prognosticators thought Tyson Jackson would for sure be there at 12 if not later.

Living in "If Only" land rarely works out in the long run. IF we need a NT next year I'm sure we'll make a real effort to get one. IF we need a QB we'll work that out as well and may well have a high one as it is.

I would have preferred giving up Chicago's first round to us next year to get Smith, but only because of their cream puff schedule,.

However, I like too that McD is confident we will be on the winning side of that bargain in any event, and he just might be right. If Cutler goes down, which is not unthinkable with his now porous O-line and his increasingly party-hardy ways, the Bears (Broncos) will be drafting in the top 5.

McD is trying to win sooner rather than later. You can fault his choices if you wish, and that's fine, but some of the doom and gloom guys here are acting like McD is just a reckless moron (not so much you lex) who is intentionally trying to destroy the club! I suppose they must view him as some evil 'Patriot Bot' that has been inserted like a deadly worm virus into the heart of Bronco Nation!

These decisions he has made are highly defensible, just as they can be questioned as well. Fair enough, but some of the guys here throwing in the towel on the team in April is simply childish lunacy.

Even if Cutler had stayed, and we hit a home run on each of our picks this year, we would still have a tall order making the playoffs with this schedule and with an all new system.

Why not give the guy the benefit of the doubt at least until some actual games take place??

Just answer the question.

NASurfer
04-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Simple.. I expect first round CBs to be cornerstones of which we'll be building our team around.

You don't spend a first rounder on a nickelback or a great special teamer. That's just not the right value.


Now as for rookie "production or level of play", I expect him to at least get some serious playing time and show flashes of brilliance. I'm not expecting a 16 game starter... yet.

Vegas_Bronco
04-26-2009, 11:24 AM
The draft is a crap shoot at best....love the talent, but the price was ridiculously high. His production would need to equal a 5-10 year starter at least - which he'll never be at 5'9".

http://thelebsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/julio-jones.jpg

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 11:24 AM
you sound stupid...

Then you have reading comprehension issues.....

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 11:28 AM
i agree with williams...

And all three of you probably wander around, day to day, in a constant state of failure..........

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Day one starter, 6 or more INTs, and in the top 3 for Defensive Rookie of the Year voting.

Orange_Beard
04-26-2009, 12:02 PM
He needs to clog up the middle, force teams to double team him. Stuff up the running game. Be the classic 3-4 NT.
That's what the Broncos need him to do.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 12:39 PM
Day one starter, 6 or more INTs, and in the top 3 for Defensive Rookie of the Year voting.

I hope this is a joke.

Day one starter is one thing. But INTs are a poor measure of success (just ask Champ) and DROY voting for a guy in his position? 16 defensive players were selected ahead of him this year, including a couple of corners. Why does he need to be in the top 3 of DROY voting ahead of all but 2 of them? Playing a position that rarely ever gets votes?

DenverBrit
04-26-2009, 12:52 PM
Because of outrageous guarantees of top 10 players....soon to be any first round player, teams will try and get rid of multiple first round picks.

The Broncos took a first round talent (according to some) and will pay second round money. Don't underestimate the effects of the economy on team draft strategy.

Does anyone think that Stafford is worth $41 million guaranteed....before playing a single down in the NFL?? Rookie salaries have gotten out of hand.

All a team can do anymore is slide out of the top ten.....unless there is compelling talent there.
This year's draft has not had the talent to justify the escalation in rookie guarantees. There needs to be a change in the compensation ASAP!

NFLBRONCO
04-26-2009, 12:56 PM
He needs to be at least a solid starter for his career with us.

If he can start and not be a liability, then it wasnt a bad move

He has lots of potential though, I have seen him compared to Asante Samuel before

I've heard A. Whitfield type CB as well.

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 01:07 PM
Joke? That's what I said when McD traded a 1ST ROUND PICK for this guy.

I don't believe he's worth what they gave up for him. He needs to be in the Top 3 because we traded a 1st round pick for him. And if McD traded UP to get this guy, then he obviously thinks he can be a Top 3 player in the DROY or something close to it.

And INTs are a good measure of success. INT=turnover. How is taking the ball away from the other team ever a "poor measure of success"? It might be a poor measure for a CB if he's in the top 5 or 10 in the League as it means that teams don't always throw his way. But for most starters, it's a great measure. If Smith gets 6+ INTs and plays consistently well, then he'll be right there in the running for DROY. Try again.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 01:25 PM
He needs to be a good starter by his sophomore yr.

lex
04-26-2009, 01:26 PM
I hope this is a joke.

Day one starter is one thing. But INTs are a poor measure of success (just ask Champ) and DROY voting for a guy in his position? 16 defensive players were selected ahead of him this year, including a couple of corners. Why does he need to be in the top 3 of DROY voting ahead of all but 2 of them? Playing a position that rarely ever gets votes?

Not if you believe the quality of the CB doesnt matter if you dont have an adequate front 7. If you believe the front 7 isnt what it should be then whether or not its a wasted pick is a huge question. Ultimately, you expect production from picks, even CBs...pass rush aside.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 01:31 PM
Joke? That's what I said when McD traded a 1ST ROUND PICK for this guy.

I don't believe he's worth what they gave up for him. He needs to be in the Top 3 because we traded a 1st round pick for him. And if McD traded UP to get this guy, then he obviously thinks he can be a Top 3 player in the DROY or something close to it.

And INTs are a good measure of success. INT=turnover. How is taking the ball away from the other team ever a "poor measure of success"? It might be a poor measure for a CB if he's in the top 5 or 10 in the League as it means that teams don't always throw his way. But for most starters, it's a great measure. If Smith gets 6+ INTs and plays consistently well, then he'll be right there in the running for DROY. Try again.


Picks the following yr not worth as much. Anything can happen in a year.

Interceptions are a good measure but you have to see how they come. Many guys have big interception yrs then suck, IE Deltha Oneil. A real Broncos first round pick by the way who was a bust for Denver. Shows you how valuable first round picks sometimes are.

More important is how he plays not his numbers. You must be young because older fans like me understand its not always about the stat line. This isn't Madden football, this is real.

If the guy is able to play up on WR, and play good in a zone, makes plays on the ball and shows good instincts, doesn't get burned deep a lot, and tackles well then he is a good pick.

I could care less about how many picks he gets, it's about not letting the WR make yrds and TDS period!!!!!

Obviously you have a lot to learn but stick around and maybe you will get smarter.

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 01:33 PM
For the role that Smith WILL ACTUALLY play--that of our 3rd CB --we could have had Ellis Hobbs for a few 5th rounders

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/04/26/eagles-pick-up-ellis-hobbs/

END THREAD.

Man-Goblin
04-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Starting next year, he has to produce like what you would expect out of the 16th pick in the draft, since that is the value of all future picks. Anything you get out of him this year is a bonus, and I would expect him to contribute.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 01:44 PM
For the role that Smith WILL ACTUALLY play--that of our 3rd CB --we could have had Ellis Hobbs for a few 5th rounders

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/04/26/eagles-pick-up-ellis-hobbs/

END THREAD.

And Dre Bly is still available for free.....

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 02:17 PM
Picks the following yr not worth as much. Anything can happen in a year.

Interceptions are a good measure but you have to see how they come. Many guys have big interception yrs then suck, IE Deltha Oneil. A real Broncos first round pick by the way who was a bust for Denver. Shows you how valuable first round picks sometimes are.

More important is how he plays not his numbers. You must be young because older fans like me understand its not always about the stat line. This isn't Madden football, this is real.

If the guy is able to play up on WR, and play good in a zone, makes plays on the ball and shows good instincts, doesn't get burned deep a lot, and tackles well then he is a good pick.

I could care less about how many picks he gets, it's about not letting the WR make yrds and TDS period!!!!!

Obviously you have a lot to learn but stick around and maybe you will get smarter.

Dude- STFU. That rotten Long Beach air has gotten to you. Assuming your balls do hang closer to the water than mine, doesn't mean anything.

Really? Is that what makes a good CB? Thanks Captain Obvious. I've never played, watched, or studied the game of football. I don't think I was arguing against the obvious qualities every CB should have. I was making the point that INTs are a good measure or at least one of the many good measures. If you're actually trying to make the point against that, then you're the one that sounds young. Again: How is an INT a bad measure? Are you actually arguing against our defense or a CB getting a TO?

Obviously, you're a McD apologist who is going to attack anyone who questions any one of his brilliant decisions. Why don't you read the thread question again? What does it say? I simply answered the question.

If sticking around means having to read your condescending, pathetic posts about how old and obvious you are then I just don't have to read them. Why would I stick around to read somebody try and tell me an INT is a bad thing? He's a refresher for you old man: INTs are turnovers.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 02:31 PM
I was making the point that INTs are a good measure or at least one of the many good measures. If you're actually trying to make the point against that, then you're the one that sounds young. Again: How is an INT a bad measure? Are you actually arguing against our defense or a CB getting a TO?

If sticking around means having to read your condescending, pathetic posts about how old and obvious you are then I just don't have to read them. Why would I stick around to read somebody try and tell me an INT is a bad thing? He's a refresher for you old man: INTs are turnovers.

You really need to read his second paragraph again. He literally wrote "interceptions are a good measure."

And aside from reading, you really need to work on your tone/attitude.....especially with the regulars. Right now, you're nothing more than the person who shows up for Church only on Christmas and steals all the good seats.

azbroncfan
04-26-2009, 02:32 PM
Solid starter for 8 years. If not we could of just blown the Jarvis Moss V2.0 pick possibly and could of got another one of him.

broncofan7
04-26-2009, 02:50 PM
You really need to read his second paragraph again. He literally wrote "interceptions are a good measure."

And aside from reading, you really need to work on your tone/attitude.....especially with the regulars. Right now, you're nothing more than the person who shows up for Church only on Christmas and steals all the good seats.

Ouch.

NFLBRONCO
04-26-2009, 02:54 PM
If he's close to Champ Bailey I'll overlook it

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 02:56 PM
You really need to read his second paragraph again. He literally wrote "interceptions are a good measure."

And aside from reading, you really need to work on your tone/attitude.....especially with the regulars. Right now, you're nothing more than the person who shows up for Church only on Christmas and steals all the good seats.

And then he says "I could care less about how many picks he gets".

Sorry, I forgot. You're the one who actually stated that "INTS are a poor measure of success (just ask Champ)", so of course you would defend him and your original statement. You sure you don't wanna take that back?

Tone/attitude? Really? Reading? The only thing you clownsuits read is the # of posts someone has. Whoop-de-do. I responded with the same tone/attitude that was afforded me.

Well, I do show up for Church though on Sundays. Except it's during every home game in my 4 reserved seats. I didn't have to steal them either. Granted my priority number on my season tickets may not be as high as others, I'm actually there on Sundays. Not on a computer making obvious posts just to get my post count higher.

tnedator
04-26-2009, 02:58 PM
So, what level of production does he need to play at to justify the pick?

This year, win the nickel spot, and completely shut down the slot receivers that have torched us the last five years or so. By his second year, win the starting CB role, and be the type of CB that takes away half the field.

He is a 'first round' CB, possibly a 'top 10' CB based on what we traded for him, so he can't just be an adequate dime DB.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 03:01 PM
And then he says "I could care less about how many picks he gets".

Sorry, I forgot. You're the one who actually stated that "INTS are a poor measure of success (just ask Champ)", so of course you would defend him and your original statement. You sure you don't wanna take that back?


Huh? Read my last post again. I didn't say I shared his belief. I was just pointing out that you accused him of saying the exact opposite of what he said.....even after you quoted it.

I have always and will always believe that picks are not the sole or even primary indicator of how good a job a CB is doing. I have never wavered from this. The best CBs in the league are very rarely among the league leaders in picks.

chaz
04-26-2009, 03:02 PM
If he becomes a long-term starter at CB I'll be fine with it. The draft is a crapshoot so if we land a guy in the second this year that pans out, I'll be alright with passing on the gamble in the first round next year. Alphonso has some very nice potential.

RhymesayersDU
04-26-2009, 03:03 PM
He's already justified the pick.

He saved poor Pat Bowlen MILLIONS of dollars that he would have had to pay a Top-5 pick next year. His job is already done.

This move was a money saver, plain and simple.

Bronx33
04-26-2009, 03:16 PM
And how pray tell can you be sure who we could have had next year??? The draft is pretty much a crap shoot straight up. Most prognosticators thought Tyson Jackson would for sure be there at 12 if not later.

Living in "If Only" land rarely works out in the long run. IF we need a NT next year I'm sure we'll make a real effort to get one. IF we need a QB we'll work that out as well and may well have a high one as it is.

I would have preferred giving up Chicago's first round to us next year to get Smith, but only because of their cream puff schedule,.

However, I like too that McD is confident we will be on the winning side of that bargain in any event, and he just might be right. If Cutler goes down, which is not unthinkable with his now porous O-line and his increasingly party-hardy ways, the Bears (Broncos) will be drafting in the top 5.

McD is trying to win sooner rather than later. You can fault his choices if you wish, and that's fine, but some of the doom and gloom guys here are acting like McD is just a reckless moron (not so much you lex) who is intentionally trying to destroy the club! I suppose they must view him as some evil 'Patriot Bot' that has been inserted like a deadly worm virus into the heart of Bronco Nation!

These decisions he has made are highly defensible, just as they can be questioned as well. Fair enough, but some of the guys here throwing in the towel on the team in April is simply childish lunacy.

Even if Cutler had stayed, and we hit a home run on each of our picks this year, we would still have a tall order making the playoffs with this schedule and with an all new system.

Why not give the guy the benefit of the doubt at least until some actual games take place??

Some folks have zero patience.

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 03:54 PM
How is "I could care less of how many picks he gets" the exact opposite of what he said? He contradicts himself in his own post.

That's fine. Sure. Great. Awesome. Poor measure...poor measure...poor measure. That's exactly what you said. And my point is that an INT, because it is a turnover, is not a poor measure. Ever. I can't believe you're trying to spin your way out of that statement, but whatever.

Do you think this guy will come out of the gates his first game with every team treating him like Champ by not throwing his way? Of course not. Then what might be a good measure to judge him in his Rookie year if he plays? INTs! Passes defensed! But he's not going to come in from Day 1 and be a shutdown corner. To gain that rep, he will have to do everything you said, AND, make some INTs. It is only when teams get burned by INTs (or at least the threat of a INT) that they stop throwing to/at certain CBs. I'm not saying anything new, but it must be pointed out to you since you said INTs aren't a big deal to you.

If the guy is a solid starter, by any means, then great choice. Time will tell. As it stands right now I don't feel it was a good draft pick given what they traded to get him and our needs elsewhere on the defensive side of the ball.

And if part of the motivation was saving $$ from having to pay next year's 1st round pick?? Then that's an entirely different issue and goes completely against the way Bowlen has run his team the last 25 years. Then this pick makes (financial) sense.

Popps
04-26-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm not going to play patty-cake with draft picks for the next three years. Either guys work out, or they don't. If Smith plays an important role and the team continues to improve, we're on the right track. I'm not going to get caught up in whether or not we lost a few draft slots. They saw this guy as a quality player and went out and got him, just like Shanahan did with Royal.

Plus, we get to start developing all of these kids a year earlier. To me, that's probably worth giving up some draft position next year.

You guys can keep track of your draft he-said she-said gossip sheets on your own. I just want to see us put a complete team together, which we're in the process of doing.

chrisp
04-26-2009, 04:01 PM
Bottom line in all of this: You have to have faith in your own judgement. You have assessed a guy as first round talent, do you give up a first to get him? Sure you do, becuase he's your guy.

Point being, no matter what pick you give up, if you find yourself picking next year and the guys you had rated as worth that pick aren't there, you lost out.

You do your assessment of what players can help you, and then you try and get them, that's how it works.

OK, if we DON'T have an awesome secondary in three years time I will puke, but there you go....

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm not going to play patty-cake with draft picks for the next three years. Either guys work out, or they don't. If Smith plays an important role and the team continues to improve, we're on the right track. I'm not going to get caught up in whether or not we lost a few draft slots. They saw this guy as a quality player and went out and got him, just like Shanahan did with Royal.

Plus, we get to start developing all of these kids a year earlier. To me, that's probably worth giving up some draft position next year.

You guys can keep track of your draft he-said she-said gossip sheets on your own. I just want to see us put a complete team together, which we're in the process of doing.

Sure, but I don't remember trading up (let alone a 1st round pick) to go get Royal. He was there in the 2nd with the same #42 overall pick they went into the Draft with.

DenverBrit
04-26-2009, 05:04 PM
He's already justified the pick.

He saved poor Pat Bowlen MILLIONS of dollars that he would have had to pay a Top-5 pick next year. His job is already done.

This move was a money saver, plain and simple.

Bingo!

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 05:11 PM
Dude- STFU. That rotten Long Beach air has gotten to you. Assuming your balls do hang closer to the water than mine, doesn't mean anything.

Really? Is that what makes a good CB? Thanks Captain Obvious. I've never played, watched, or studied the game of football. I don't think I was arguing against the obvious qualities every CB should have. I was making the point that INTs are a good measure or at least one of the many good measures. If you're actually trying to make the point against that, then you're the one that sounds young. Again: How is an INT a bad measure? Are you actually arguing against our defense or a CB getting a TO?

Obviously, you're a McD apologist who is going to attack anyone who questions any one of his brilliant decisions. Why don't you read the thread question again? What does it say? I simply answered the question.

If sticking around means having to read your condescending, pathetic posts about how old and obvious you are then I just don't have to read them. Why would I stick around to read somebody try and tell me an INT is a bad thing? He's a refresher for you old man: INTs are turnovers.

Once again you don't get. I didn't say interceptions are a bad measure of a CB. I said a CB can be really good, have a great yr, and not meet your stupid ridged requirements of what he needs to do to be a good pick. Your statement was stupid no matter how old you are.

As someone who did play football it's often another players good play that gives another guy a pick. Very few are the exceptional ones like the great corners will pull off, where they fool the QB. Many are actually caused because the QB was forced from number 1 wr, to the 2nd option, 2nd option covered as well, now some pressure, throw to 3rd option, too late pick.

The 3rd defender gets the pick but also the 1st and 2nd did just as much because the QB was forced to look the other way.

So yeah lots of picks will get the player noticed, maybe a pro bowl, but really all this kid has to do to justify the pick is become a starter, and be a good nfl football player. It's not about trying to find stars, you can't determine who those guys will be.

DBroncos4life
04-26-2009, 05:24 PM
We had two first round picks in a draft where the QBs are much better then the ones in this draft. Now there isn't much hope for us to even sniff at one of them in next years draft, but hey we have Orton.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Sure, but I don't remember trading up (let alone a 1st round pick) to go get Royal. He was there in the 2nd with the same #42 overall pick they went into the Draft with.

If you paid more attention you would realize teams rarely want 10 rookies. Better to use the extra picks to move around and grab the players you really want. We can fill out the other rookie spots and practice squad with some undrafted FA. The undrafted FA get way less then a 3rd, 4th round pick but many can be groomed into good players.

If even 2 players from each draft become solid starters, and a couple more are good role players, bkups, special teamers, its a good draft.

Royal we didn't move up for, but was considered by most to be available later then we picked. Had Broncos been further down in round they very well may have moved up for him.

Broncos had a draft board of players they wanted, moved up for guys they thought worth it. No way anyone can judge or say a player wasn't worth it. Until we see them play we don't know. The pro game way different so you just have to watch.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 05:28 PM
We had two first round picks in a draft where the QBs are much better then the ones in this draft. Now there isn't much hope for us to even sniff at one of them in next years draft, but hey we have Orton.

All those Qbs could get hurt next yr and be crap. Picks a yr away are worth less the picks this yr. Just how it is.

Plus one thing you dont think about it how much money 4 first round picks would cost over 2 yrs. They get so much it makes it twice as expensive. Sounds good on paper but in reality having too many firsts every yr can make team too expensive. Unfortunately its a business and thats how it is.

Jens1893
04-26-2009, 05:31 PM
I just hope the kid is gonna get a fair chance and that people wonīt tar and feather him quite simply because we gave up what might be a top 10 pick in 2010 to get him. Itīs not the kidīs fault.

FireFly
04-26-2009, 05:42 PM
Day one starter, 6 or more INTs, and in the top 3 for Defensive Rookie of the Year voting.

IMO, nothing like this at all. All he needs to do to justify the price is be a full time starter for 4-5 years.

Anything more than that and he's great value.

How many 1st round picks bust completely or end up being average players!?

If he's an average starter that makes some plays and isn't viewed as a weakness on our team he's worth a 1st just because so many other playeres can be even less than that. 1st round status doesn't make them a lock for the HoF.

I could list 15-20 1st round picks over the last few years that have done less than what I'm asking. If he does more, we've done well.

FireFly
04-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Also, every one is talking about how awesome next years draft is going to be. I CLEARLY remember people on this board saying we shouldn't draft the top MLB last year because we should hang on and get Laurinaitis, James!Just goes to show things change over the course of a year.

prunch
04-26-2009, 05:53 PM
LOUD NOISES!!!

http://i2.bebo.com/010b/medium/2006/05/11/20/793356948a794646670b403666993m.jpg

toad
04-26-2009, 06:32 PM
SI.com, pre-draft, had him pegged as "late first round" simply due to his height. They said he was one of (if not the) most polished DB in the draft and had him among the top handful of DBs in the draft.

I'm not majorly upset over the pick...but would have rather the 2010 first rounder we got from the Bears would have been let go as I think "our" pick will end up being the higher pick as we rebuild.

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 06:41 PM
This is clearly an attempt by McD and co. to get their guys in regardless of the cost.

If they are going to go down, they are going to do it with their guys regardless of what it costs Broncos fans or the franchise.

seanpgk
04-26-2009, 06:42 PM
If you paid more attention you would realize teams rarely want 10 rookies. Better to use the extra picks to move around and grab the players you really want. We can fill out the other rookie spots and practice squad with some undrafted FA. The undrafted FA get way less then a 3rd, 4th round pick but many can be groomed into good players.

If even 2 players from each draft become solid starters, and a couple more are good role players, bkups, special teamers, its a good draft.

Royal we didn't move up for, but was considered by most to be available later then we picked. Had Broncos been further down in round they very well may have moved up for him.

Broncos had a draft board of players they wanted, moved up for guys they thought worth it. No way anyone can judge or say a player wasn't worth it. Until we see them play we don't know. The pro game way different so you just have to watch.

Nice backtrack and deflection. Trying to argue against something I never said. I actually did play football and was being sarcastic earlier. There are a lot of factors for DBs, with INTs being one of the biggest. I never said the other factors aren't important. I simply answered the original post as it was asked literally. I guess you interpreted the "LEVEL OF PRODUCTION" part differently. It is an opinion. My opinion to justify trading next year's 1st rounder is day 1 starter, 6+ INTs, and top 3 in DROY voting. So what? Would you feel better if I said 0 INTs? If he get's 5 INTs will I think he's a bust? Of course not. If he's top 10 in DROY will I be disappointed? Hell no. They're arbitrary numbers I felt justified the trade. Get over it.

But "you could care less about INTs", so therefore, you don't care about getting turnovers. Tip Drill- ever hear of it? They use it so the DBs can get a pick and then give the ball back to the offense. The offense then trys to score more points than the other team with the goal of winning the game. I guess you need it broken down so you understand it:

INT=TOs=more opportunities for the offense=more points=more wins

I'm all for trading and moving around, but come on. Relying every year on undrafted players won't cut it in the long run. We can get lucky here and there (Woodyard), but there's reasons why most don't pan out. If you're going to trade Cutler, then you better make the most of those picks. I sure don't plan on the Broncos drafting this many picks in the early rounds every year. They might as well make them count.

Bronx33
04-26-2009, 06:44 PM
This is clearly an attempt by McD and co. to get their guys in regardless of the cost.

If they are going to go down, they are going to do it with their guys regardless of what it costs Broncos fans or the franchise.


Just file it under all the other assumptions. :clown:

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 07:07 PM
Just file it under all the other assumptions. :clown:

Nah man...

At this point it is irrational to have faith in what McD is doing given the numerous mistakes that he is stacking one on top of the other.

He has a long way to go to prove himself to Broncos fans.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 07:15 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha and Champ Bailey were both tied for 112th in the league last year in INTs with one each.

DrFate
04-26-2009, 07:17 PM
Has anyone verified WHICH #1 from next year was given up for Smith?

If it ends up being a top 5 pick, this guy better be Darrell freakin' Green.

Feel free to PM me if anyone has verified info

Bronx33
04-26-2009, 07:19 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha and Champ Bailey were both tied for 112th in the league last year in INTs with one each.


Slowiks 10+ yard cushion schemes took one of champs strengths completely away.

Beantown Bronco
04-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Slowiks 10+ yard cushion schemes took one of champs strengths completely away.

Actually, it's always been Champ's choice to play off coverage. He's been quoted numerous times about that. It's actually how he got his one pick this year and how he's gotten most of them in the past. That's how he baits QBs.

Inkana7
04-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Nah man...

At this point it is irrational to have faith in what McD is doing given the numerous mistakes that he is stacking one on top of the other.

He has a long way to go to prove himself to Broncos fans.

At this point, it's irrational to label anything he has done as a mistake because a down of football has yet to be played.

RhymesayersDU
04-26-2009, 07:36 PM
To be technical, he got his one pick due to a bad call and a malfunctioning replay system.


I mean, I love Champ as much as the next guy, but I don't think that INT he got credit for against SD was the right call.

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 07:39 PM
At this point, it's irrational to label anything he has done as a mistake because a down of football has yet to be played.

Ah. Okay.

Present that statement to a Lions fan and see how hard they laugh in your face.

Bronx33
04-26-2009, 07:40 PM
Actually, it's always been Champ's choice to play off coverage. He's been quoted numerous times about that. It's actually how he got his one pick this year and how he's gotten most of them in the past. That's how he baits QBs.

And i thought the combo package of no pass rush a 10 yard cushion and treasure trove of open recievers was unfounded?

Inkana7
04-26-2009, 07:42 PM
Ah. Okay.

Present that statement to a Lions fan and see how hard they laugh in your face.

Relevance?

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Relevance?

Let me connect some dots for ya...

Bad management = bad football.

Inkana7
04-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Let me connect some dots for ya...

Bad management = bad football.

Correct. So, let me use the inverse property here.

Bad football = bad management.

So how do we determine if the management is bad? Playing football. Has football been played? No. So it's irrational to say "What a moronic mistake! The Titanic was better than that!" before a single down of training camp, preseason or regular season football has been played.

Don't act smug when you don't have that smart of a point to make.

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 07:51 PM
Correct. So, let me use the inverse property here.

Bad football = bad management.

So how do we determine if the management is bad? Playing football. Has football been played? No. So it's irrational to say "What a moronic mistake! The Titanic was better than that!" before a single down of training camp, preseason or regular season football has been played.

Don't act smug when you don't have that smart of a point to make.


Even though it was a simple point that I brought up, it was and still is over your head.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 10:46 PM
SI.com, pre-draft, had him pegged as "late first round" simply due to his height. They said he was one of (if not the) most polished DB in the draft and had him among the top handful of DBs in the draft.

I'm not majorly upset over the pick...but would have rather the 2010 first rounder we got from the Bears would have been let go as I think "our" pick will end up being the higher pick as we rebuild.

It's Mcdaniels and his confidence. Only the crap fans on the board willing to say Bears will finish better then Broncos. Mcdaniels is telling everyone, including the players he feels Broncos will be good next yr. Smart move IMO because it'
s always better to motivate and be confident, then throw in towel and say Bears will better then us next yr.

IMO Broncos team is so much more talented then last yr already.

The difference in the secondary is amazing. We had scrub safetys now we have some proven vets. Bailey will be healthy. Stick the rookie at nickel until he's better then goodman, which may be this yr honestly. Anyone who watched Smith in college knows he's a baller.

Linebackers should be a tad better with Andre Davis helping out and Woodyard having another offseason of working out in an NFL program.

Ayers should help with some pass rush and the d-coord is probably better then what we had before.

I think Broncos will be much much better of defense this yr.

Also I don't see any reason we can't finish about the same as last yr in points scored. We blew so many redzone chances because of lack of RBS and Cutler choking at worst possible time. He's lucky his biggest choke got called wrong. Honestly that play were cutler just dropped ball would have been on of the all time choke plays in Denver/Charger history. As it is its only worst call ever.

Broncos are going to be decent team this yr. We may not win 10 games and get to playoffs but I think they compete and play close games even against the big teams.

In fact I bet we don't get blown out one time.

lex
04-26-2009, 10:55 PM
It's Mcdaniels and his confidence. Only the crap fans on the board willing to say Bears will finish better then Broncos. Mcdaniels is telling everyone, including the players he feels Broncos will be good next yr. Smart move IMO because it'
s always better to motivate and be confident, then throw in towel and say Bears will better then us next yr.

IMO Broncos team is so much more talented then last yr already.

The difference in the secondary is amazing. We had scrub safetys now we have some proven vets. Bailey will be healthy. Stick the rookie at nickel until he's better then goodman, which may be this yr honestly. Anyone who watched Smith in college knows he's a baller.

Linebackers should be a tad better with Andre Davis helping out and Woodyard having another offseason of working out in an NFL program.

Ayers should help with some pass rush and the d-coord is probably better then what we had before.

I think Broncos will be much much better of defense this yr.

Also I don't see any reason we can't finish about the same as last yr in points scored. We blew so many redzone chances because of lack of RBS and Cutler choking at worst possible time. He's lucky his biggest choke got called wrong. Honestly that play were cutler just dropped ball would have been on of the all time choke plays in Denver/Charger history. As it is its only worst call ever.

Broncos are going to be decent team this yr. We may not win 10 games and get to playoffs but I think they compete and play close games even against the big teams.

In fact I bet we don't get blown out one time.

Thats not good enough. He needs to produce and produce this year otherwise the whole time-value-money concept thats being invoked is negated. Sorry but part time player isnt going to cut it for what we gave up for this guy.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 10:59 PM
Thats not good enough. He needs to produce and produce this year otherwise the whole time-value-money concept thats being invoked is negated. Sorry but part time player isnt going to cut it for what we gave up for this guy.

I disagree because many rookie corners struggle then play great 2nd yr. Raiders had to wait for Asomugho to blossom as well. When they took him bottom of round 1.

I agree Smith needs to show he's a player this yr, but he may not start over Goodman right away.

The guy you draft next yr would be a yr behind the player this yr in terms of offseason nfl training, the whole season of experience, and be much better positioned for a big yr.

I any event I'm looking forward to all you whiners to be proven wrong.

lex
04-26-2009, 11:08 PM
I disagree because many rookie corners struggle then play great 2nd yr. Raiders had to wait for Asomugho to blossom as well. When they took him bottom of round 1.

I agree Smith needs to show he's a player this yr, but he may not start over Goodman right away.

The guy you draft next yr would be a yr behind the player this yr in terms of offseason nfl training, the whole season of experience, and be much better positioned for a big yr.

I any event I'm looking forward to all you whiners to be proven wrong.


No, because the guy we could have had next year could have been of greater impact than a CB, either by the position of our pick itself or by having the flexibility to package our two #1s to move up and get a bigger impact player than what we should be expecting from Smith, whether thats a dominant NT, a QB, or another player. Smith didnt only cost us that pick but possibly a more significant pick, since he represents one leg of it. He needs to get out from under that "why did we use that pick" and he has a small window to do it. Theres too much vitriole towards Il Duce for Smith to be spared or people to have patience. Il Duce is on thin ice.

cutthemdown
04-26-2009, 11:44 PM
No, because the guy we could have had next year could have been of greater impact than a CB, either by the position of our pick itself or by having the flexibility to package our two #1s to move up and get a bigger impact player than what we should be expecting from Smith, whether thats a dominant NT, a QB, or another player. Smith didnt only cost us that pick but possibly a more significant pick, since he represents one leg of it. He needs to get out from under that "why did we use that pick" and he has a small window to do it. Theres too much vitriole towards Il Duce for Smith to be spared or people to have patience. Il Duce is on thin ice.

He just needs to end up a good NFL starting CB for the pick to be worth it. You are saying if he was injured this yr, then came back to be a great player for the Broncos it wasn't worth it?

Broncos will probably just trade Bailey next yr for a high pick anyways.

You just don't want to many first rounders, or too many top 10 draftees. They are too expensive. We now get Smith for 2nd rounder money when he is probably a first round talent.

Many Many draft player rankings had him in top 30 players. If he was 2-3 inches taller many people think he would have been a really high pick.

CBs are very important and obviously Mcdaniels feels this guy is an nfl starter.

I will agree he needs to show he can play well, and eventually be a starting corner that plays well, but I won't agree he has any specific time frame for that or any specific stats he has to achieve.

Sure if by yr 2-3 he isn't starting, he will never start, that goes without saying. But he may only be the 3rd corner to come in this yr.

I also think though a good chance he starts before yr is over.

lex
04-26-2009, 11:57 PM
He just needs to end up a good NFL starting CB for the pick to be worth it. You are saying if he was injured this yr, then came back to be a great player for the Broncos it wasn't worth it?

Broncos will probably just trade Bailey next yr for a high pick anyways.

You just don't want to many first rounders, or too many top 10 draftees. They are too expensive. We now get Smith for 2nd rounder money when he is probably a first round talent.

Many Many draft player rankings had him in top 30 players. If he was 2-3 inches taller many people think he would have been a really high pick.

CBs are very important and obviously Mcdaniels feels this guy is an nfl starter.

I will agree he needs to show he can play well, and eventually be a starting corner that plays well, but I won't agree he has any specific time frame for that or any specific stats he has to achieve.

Sure if by yr 2-3 he isn't starting, he will never start, that goes without saying. But he may only be the 3rd corner to come in this yr.

I also think though a good chance he starts before yr is over.

Once again, he needs to have an impact this year because the reaction to him will be too strongly linked to how people feel about McDaniels--fair or not.

Plus, like I said, the whole TMV concept McDaniels invoked is not in play if he doesnt impact this year.

Carmelo15
04-27-2009, 01:26 AM
Good point, yes, Alphonso Smith looks like a seriously high character guy ... kid reminds me of D-Will (a tenth of a second slower).I loved D-Will and Alphonso reminds me of him in that he is another corner that plays with a lot of passion and aggression on the field. But I think he will be even Darrent Williams (R.I.P.). He has ridiculous ball skills and instincts. I see multiple Pro Bowl's in Alphonso's future. I think very highly of him and was glad to see the Broncos did as well. I thought Mike Nolan only like bigger corners but obviously they felt Alphonso's skill set was so great that his lack of height was easier to overcome.

Blueflame
04-27-2009, 01:33 AM
To justify giving up what will probably be a top-10 first round pick next year, I think he'd have to play at Asomugha's level... if he doesn't, then the Seachickens hosed the Broncos.

cutthemdown
04-27-2009, 03:57 AM
Once again, he needs to have an impact this year because the reaction to him will be too strongly linked to how people feel about McDaniels--fair or not.

Plus, like I said, the whole TMV concept McDaniels invoked is not in play if he doesnt impact this year.

To be honest with you I think Bowlen will be patient with Mcdanie;s. No way a bad yr would get him fired. For sure Mcdaniels IMO has 2 yrs minimum.

True people like you, and people like me, will be critical of his moves that don't work out, but IMO you can't judge a draft completely until 2-3 yrs later.

Sure last yr was special in that Royal and CLady proved to be starters, and played well. But either could also have a sophomore slump, you never know.

But after 3 yrs you basically know what you got. Players after yr 3 if they aren't competent starters never will be unless there are some mitigating factors like bad luck with minor injuries each yr etc.

So If Smith plays like crap, looks stiff on field, shows no ball skills in first yr I will join you and say wow Broncos should not have done that. If however he shows that he is going to be a good starter, then goes out over next 1-3 yrs and becomes that good starting NFL Corner, then no he is not a bust, regardless of what he does first yr.

Sorry man but no pick is make or break in first yr.