PDA

View Full Version : SoCal's Thoughts on Day One


SoCalBronco
04-25-2009, 10:16 PM
My thoughts:

1a. Knowshon Moreno, RB Georgia- There's no question that Knowshon is a talented player. He is elusive, creative and instinctive. He's also a credible threat out of the backfield and a very good blocker. He jukes a little too much and did not really explode his final year as much as I thought he would. Nonetheless, Mayock likes him the best of the RBs. This is a theme of the Broncos draft: in the abstract, the player selected is a quality player, but it does not appear that the Broncos have their priorities set properly. While we did have a ton of RBs hit the IR last year, RB at this spot was absolutely nothing more than a mere luxury....a luxury that we could not afford. The point was raised that perhaps the team did not like who was there among the defensive players. So what? The team appeared to be more than willing to give up valuable assets to move around in the draft, so it would necessarily follow that they should have done that to secure the defensive prospects they did like, or that they needed (i.e. 3-4 NT such as Raji or Brace). I am lukewarm about this selection because of the surrounding needs issues that were neglected, although the idea of Moreno and Hillis in the same backfield is certainly intriguing (and exciting). I am definitely excited to see that.

1b. Robert Ayers DE Tennessee- Ayers absolutely lit it up in the Senior Bowl practices. And those practices are very instructive because one can weigh a prospect against the very best at opposing positions. One need not resort to finding game tape of the player against a quality opponent, you can see it right there. It has been noted that Ayers is a versatile prospect, but it seems that given his weight, he would be best used as a 3-4 SOLB. Someone suggested that hopefully he could be our Adalius Thomas. The best argument in favor of this prospect is that he's Mayock's favorite and that is high praise indeed. But even Mayock suggested that it may take three years for him to really develop. Does this staff have that much time? Thankfully, if we revert back to a 4-3 in the next regime, I think Ayers could fit well as a DE there.

2a. Alphonso Smith CB Wake Forest- It was an error of biblical proportions for Denver to sacrifice its own 2010 first round selection to move up to secure the services of this cornerback. Denver is likely to be selecting in the Top 10 and maybe even Top 5 in the next draft, which will be a deeper draft. To throw that away because you have a hard on for a small cornerback is irrational. Now, Smith is a gifted player and despite his size, he can definitely play. However, it appears that he would be best in the slot or against smaller recievers as he would struggle against king-sized possession recievers. There is a credible argument that Denver did need to get younger at this position given that Bailey is getting older and the FA additions were not spring chickens themselves, but this does not justify addressing the position this high (and elevating it over the DL) and it absolutely does not justify burning the 2010 pick. I don't know whether we are a hardheaded franchise or what, but the lesson has been demonstrated to us over and over again the last few years that it is best to build the defense from the front going backwards not vice versa. That's especially true in a 3-4 when the NT is at the fulcrum of the defense. We have not learned that lesson.

2b. Darcel McBath S Texas Tech- It is certainly reasonable for Denver to address their safety need. They did acquire short term answers to the position in FA, but obviously there was a need for an infusion of young talent as well. The problem is that by this point in the draft, Denver STILL had not really addressed the Defensive Line. What we needed to do, if we were going to trade up, was trade up from 48 to the late 30s to take Ron Brace ahead of NE, using this pick along with a 3rd, rather than burning both thirds on some blocking TE and also burning the first next year. The DL absolutely needed to be addressed, esp. NT before S. And it wasn't. And it still hasn't. With regard to McBath, he does bring more of presence in the pass defense than we are used to, which is refreshing, but Rashad Johnson of Alabama would have been a better choice. Johnson is very instinctive and a ballhawk who succeeded in a tougher conference. McBath is a solid prospect, but this was a bit of a reach and he made a large share of his big plays (and picks) in a single game last season. His range is solid, however and between McBath and Barrett, perhaps we will have a credible young duo of safeties for the future (when Dawkins and Hill are ready to go in about 2 years).

2c. Richard Quinn TE UNC- This is just flat out criminal negligence. There appears to be no rhyme or reason, here. Daniel Graham is a top-flight blocking TE. He is still fairly young and is devastatingly effective (and still has a few years left on his deal). Why would we get another blocking TE? Especially when, again, we STILL hadn't addressed the 3-4 NT or DE position. An argument could be made that if they planned to ship Scheffler out, a pass catching TE would be needed (if that were even used in this offense), but even that rationale wouldn't work here. It might work with someone like the underrated and forgotten but highly talented Cornelius Ingram, but not this stiff. This was a joke. And burning the two thirds (even though they got a 4th back) was probably the worst part of it.

Best Thing Denver Did: They avoided Rey Maualauga.
Worst Thing Denver Did: (Tie) An amazing disregard for draft pick assets and a failure to address the 3-4 DL positions in any way.

Overall Grade: D

Orange_Beard
04-25-2009, 10:20 PM
Nail on the head.

SouthStndJunkie
04-25-2009, 10:20 PM
I have rarely seen a team do worse maneuvering than Denver did today.

I thought McDaniels was a NE guy....NE guys don't wet their pants and trade their 2 3rd round picks to draft a blocking TE that would have been there in the 3rd round. They don't trade a high 2010 draft pick to draft a corner in the 2nd round.

garandman
04-25-2009, 10:21 PM
Sanity still exists.... Thank you socal

Rohirrim
04-25-2009, 10:21 PM
Rey Maualuga would have been better than all of these players combined at helping us at our point of greatest need: Stopping the run.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:21 PM
Scary how much I agree with this ... wouldn't change a word.

SouthStndJunkie
04-25-2009, 10:21 PM
We spent a ****load of our free agent resources on assorted running backs....and then we draft one with our first pick.

I am cool with the Moreno pick, but I am sure all the RBs McDaniels conned into signing here are all like WTF?

McDman
04-25-2009, 10:23 PM
I think we took Moreno at the 12 because there was no defensive player there that wowed us.

A lot of people were not impressed with Orakpo. Mayock compared him to Gholston.

I was not happy at first with the pick but it makes sense.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:25 PM
They must REALLY like Ron Fields and Kenny Peterson. :oyvey:

Jekyll15Hyde
04-25-2009, 10:27 PM
finally a quality summary at every position. QFMFT

lex
04-25-2009, 10:27 PM
The thing that sucks is that if we lose because of a failure to address NT, we may have been in a position to maneuver, or even outright draft, Terence Cody...or someone else. One thing that is kind of interesting is that every pick today was the kind that can typically step in and be productive fairly soon (provided they can play). RBs, CBs, Ss, and TEs, typically can produce in their rookie years. So can LBs, and that makes me wonder if Ayers, is projected as a LB in our scheme. It almost seems like Il Duce is putting everything into this one season and is throwing the team under the bus to do it.

Again, much of this goes back to Pat. This is a great lesson on the value of having a real GM, one who thinks long-term so that he can stand up to a coach who is only thinking of saving his own skin.

Wes Mantooth
04-25-2009, 10:28 PM
:(

Denver724
04-25-2009, 10:28 PM
My thoughts:

1a. Knowshon Moreno, RB Georgia- There's no question that Knowshon is a talented player. He is elusive, creative and instinctive. He's also a credible threat out of the backfield and a very good blocker. He jukes a little too much and did not really explode his final year as much as I thought he would. Nonetheless, Mayock likes him the best of the RBs. This is a theme of the Broncos draft: in the abstract, the player selected is a quality player, but it does not appear that the Broncos have their priorities set properly. While we did have a ton of RBs hit the IR last year, RB at this spot was absolutely nothing more than a mere luxury....a luxury that we could not afford. The point was raised that perhaps the team did not like who was there among the defensive players. So what? The team appeared to be more than willing to give up valuable assets to move around in the draft, so it would necessarily follow that they should have done that to secure the defensive prospects they did like, or that they needed (i.e. 3-4 NT such as Raji or Brace). I am lukewarm about this selection because of the surrounding needs issues that were neglected, although the idea of Moreno and Hillis in the same backfield is certainly intriguing (and exciting). I am definitely excited to see that.

1b. Robert Ayers DE Tennessee- Ayers absolutely lit it up in the Senior Bowl practices. And those practices are very instructive because one can weigh a prospect against the very best at opposing positions. One need not resort to finding game tape of the player against a quality opponent, you can see it right there. It has been noted that Ayers is a versatile prospect, but it seems that given his weight, he would be best used as a 3-4 SOLB. Someone suggested that hopefully he could be our Adalius Thomas. The best argument in favor of this prospect is that he's Mayock's favorite and that is high praise indeed. But even Mayock suggested that it may take three years for him to really develop. Does this staff have that much time? Thankfully, if we revert back to a 4-3 in the next regime, I think Ayers could fit well as a DE there.

2a. Alphonso Smith CB Wake Forest- It was an error of biblical proportions for Denver to sacrifice its own 2010 first round selection to move up to secure the services of this cornerback. Denver is likely to be selecting in the Top 10 and maybe even Top 5 in the next draft, which will be a deeper draft. To throw that away because you have a hard on for a small cornerback is irrational. Now, Smith is a gifted player and despite his size, he can definitely play. However, it appears that he would be best in the slot or against smaller recievers as he would struggle against king-sized possession recievers. There is a credible argument that Denver did need to get younger at this position given that Bailey is getting older and the FA additions were not spring chickens themselves, but this does not justify addressing the position this high (and elevating it over the DL) and it absolutely does not justify burning the 2010 pick. I don't know whether we are a hardheaded franchise or what, but the lesson has been demonstrated to us over and over again the last few years that it is best to build the defense from the front going backwards not vice versa. That's especially true in a 3-4 when the NT is at the fulcrum of the defense. We have not learned that lesson.

2b. Darcel McBath S Texas Tech- It is certainly reasonable for Denver to address their safety need. They did acquire short term answers to the position in FA, but obviously there was a need for an infusion of young talent as well. The problem is that by this point in the draft, Denver STILL had not really addressed the Defensive Line. What we needed to do, if we were going to trade up, was trade up from 48 to the late 30s to take Ron Brace ahead of NE, using this pick along with a 3rd, rather than burning both thirds on some blocking TE and also burning the first next year. The DL absolutely needed to be addressed, esp. NT before S. And it wasn't. And it still hasn't. With regard to McBath, he does bring more of presence in the pass defense than we are used to, which is refreshing, but Rashad Johnson of Alabama would have been a better choice. Johnson is very instinctive and a ballhawk who succeeded in a tougher conference. McBath is a solid prospect, but this was a bit of a reach and he made a large share of his big plays (and picks) in a single game last season. His range is solid, however and between McBath and Barrett, perhaps we will have a credible young duo of safeties for the future (when Dawkins and Hill are ready to go in about 2 years).

2c. Richard Quinn TE UNC- This is just flat out criminal negligence. There appears to be no rhyme or reason, here. Daniel Graham is a top-flight blocking TE. He is still fairly young and is devastatingly effective (and still has a few years left on his deal). Why would we get another blocking TE? Especially when, again, we STILL hadn't addressed the 3-4 NT or DE position. An argument could be made that if they planned to ship Scheffler out, a pass catching TE would be needed (if that were even used in this offense), but even that rationale wouldn't work here. It might work with someone like the underrated and forgotten but highly talented Cornelius Ingram, but not this stiff. This was a joke. And burning the two thirds (even though they got a 4th back) was probably the worst part of it.

Best Thing Denver Did: They avoided Rey Maualauga.
Worst Thing Denver Did: (Tie) An amazing disregard for draft pick assets and a failure to address the 3-4 DL positions in any way.

Overall Grade: D

I totally disagree. I think it was a wonderful first day. It shows we are moving to a power running game with the picks of Moreno and Quinn. I love the Ayers, Smith and McBath picks. Sure, I don't like losing next years #1, but I think Smith could be an asset this season. Six more picks tomorrow and undrafted FA's. I think we will look back in a few years and really be happy with this draft.

Popps
04-25-2009, 10:30 PM
Wow, SoCal. Shocking. I would have expected you to give the new staff a stellar draft grade.

SoCalBronco
04-25-2009, 10:31 PM
I think we took Moreno at the 12 because there was no defensive player there that wowed us.

.

Then they should have ****ing traded up for Raji since they are apparently willing to piss away picks like they aren't worth anything. He was taken just a few spots ahead of us. We could have given Jax a 3rd....hell both 3rds and secured our Vince Wilfork.

That would have been a hell of alot better than pissing away both thirds anyway and also a top 10 pick next year.

Dagmar
04-25-2009, 10:31 PM
http://www.lkessler.com/marvin.gif

http://thehostess.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/hillary-very-angry.jpg

http://spacemermaid.urbanblog.dk/files/2006/11/Angry_woman_with_computer.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hPxGmTGarM

http://www.superpouvoir.com/Team/Fred/Red_Hulk_Chili_Peper.PNG

Any of those would have done. I cannot WAIT till September buddy. I love being a Broncos fan.

ColoradoDarin
04-25-2009, 10:33 PM
Best RB
Best DE (perhaps best defensive player)
Best Intercepting CB
Best Intercepting safety
Best blocking TE (you do know that we are going to run a lot of 3 TE sets)

OrangeRising
04-25-2009, 10:33 PM
I cried.

With so many things of such greater importance in this world, it may seem terribly selfish and small to be so concerned and troubled by this, but I did. I cried.

I wasn't all that thrilled with the McDaniels hiring to start with, and now this.

I thought that maybe, just maybe this young man has keen instincts and some that Belichick football savvy.

It would seem he has neither.

This is awful beyond measure. A very sad day for Bronco fans, especially those away from home.

Dagmar
04-25-2009, 10:35 PM
SoCal you are a great Broncos fan and you are not happy with the way things have gone but the Broncos are lucky to have a fan as passionate as you. Maybe this season will prove you wrong. But I like ya!

scttgrd
04-25-2009, 10:35 PM
Keep slobbering on McDaniels knob, if you think today will solve our defensive issues you are insane. I can't for the life of me see what anyone see's with this guy. He is an idiot of the highest order and will run this team into the ground. Today was just the second example of his lunacy.

lostknight
04-25-2009, 10:37 PM
++++rep

Doggcow
04-25-2009, 10:37 PM
Im gonna laugh my ass off when we go 13-3 next year and deep into the playoffs.

tsiguy96
04-25-2009, 10:38 PM
im curious how this all turns out when it actually matters: on the field

you all seem to think championships are won in april, ive never seen one that is. championships are built when teams take good players and make them play well together in a good scheme. the TE pick is a bit disconcerning but i will worry about it after i see how they perform and fit in with the team.

BroncoMan4ever
04-25-2009, 10:38 PM
to everyone thinking we will be picking in the top 10 next year, i think you are all wrong, because we will be picking in the high teens possibly early 20s next year.

theAPAOps5
04-25-2009, 10:39 PM
SoCal glad to have you back. I give the draft a C so far. Knowshon was a great pick and Ayers is considered the best D player this draft by Mayock. But they quickly ruined a draft by over spending in the second. You don't give up a first in a draft considered good to great for a second in a draft considered mediocre to poor. All the players picked are solid players who will contribute immediately.

That said I expect Scheffler to be gone tomorrow and Peppers to be a Bronco. Yeah I said it, now lets see if it happens! :)

SoCalBronco
04-25-2009, 10:40 PM
Wow, SoCal. Shocking. I would have expected you to give the new staff a stellar draft grade.

Come on, dude.

Even you can't be happy with us.

You have been one of the leading proponents (actually, probably THE leading proponent) of the theory that we need to learn the lesson of building the defense from the defensive front first, because it all starts upfront, esp in the 3-4. You have reiterated this over and over. And you were right, Popps. And you continue to be right. And we more or less ignored the front. We got a very promising SOLB prospect, but literally nothing at NT or either of the DE positions. Literally. I would think that this would bother you greatly, Popps, especially given that we burned 2 more oppurtunities tomorrow morning to finally address these spots (and a probable Top 10 pick next year on a cornerback).

uplink
04-25-2009, 10:41 PM
One thing about all the players picked:

I think all will see some playing time next season with Smith sometimes in the nickel and Quinn in power 2 TE sets and McBath specializing in covering receiving TEs like the guy in San Diego.

I bet that went into the thinking of who would be chosen.

theAPAOps5
04-25-2009, 10:41 PM
Keep slobbering on McDaniels knob, if you think today will solve our defensive issues you are insane. I can't for the life of me see what anyone see's with this guy. He is an idiot of the highest order and will run this team into the ground. Today was just the second example of his lunacy.

He got rid of the drunk wanna be franchise QB who won't amount to ****. He made one mistake so far. You will eat your words and I can't wait to rub it in your face.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:42 PM
2b. Darcel McBath S Texas Tech- .... With regard to McBath, he does bring more of presence in the pass defense than we are used to, which is refreshing, but Rashad Johnson of Alabama would have been a better choice. Johnson is very instinctive and a ballhawk who succeeded in a tougher conference. McBath is a solid prospect, but this was a bit of a reach and he made a large share of his big plays (and picks) in a single game last season.

Rashad Johnson is #4 on Mayock's safeties list :(

The inexperience of our front office was glaring in the second round ... ignoring the gaping holes on the D-line while scrambling to wildly overpay in whiz-bang trades for players who might've been there later anyway.

We gave up a huge impact player in next year's draft, probably a pick between 5 and 10. We will all be C-R-Y-I-N-G when we see the Seahawks on the clock a year from today. I shudder to think who will be available that high in a deeeep 2010 draft. :vermeil:

Vegas_Bronco
04-25-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm so pissed off at this BS draft that I can hardly stand to talk about it....just purely irresponsible and downright foolish. The move to get Smith has me now jumping to the McD hate club and signing up as it's chairman! Error after error today....we went into this with 5hit in one hand and a wish in the other - HORRIBLE PREPARATION.

theAPAOps5
04-25-2009, 10:45 PM
Denver took Mayocks #3 and #4 players and yet people bitch. I am convinced the majority of posters here don't know what they are talking about.

The only issue today was the overspending.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:45 PM
Come on, dude.

You have been THE leading proponent that we need to learn the lesson of building the defensive front first, because it all starts upfront, esp in the 3-4.

Ba-ZING!

Pander-Popps get zinged ... (but I'm sure he'll explain to us why that was not actually a zing :~ohyah!:)

footstepsfrom#27
04-25-2009, 10:46 PM
My thoughts:

1a. Knowshon Moreno, RB Georgia- There's no question that Knowshon is a talented player. He is elusive, creative and instinctive. He's also a credible threat out of the backfield and a very good blocker. He jukes a little too much and did not really explode his final year as much as I thought he would. Nonetheless, Mayock likes him the best of the RBs. This is a theme of the Broncos draft: in the abstract, the player selected is a quality player, but it does not appear that the Broncos have their priorities set properly. While we did have a ton of RBs hit the IR last year, RB at this spot was absolutely nothing more than a mere luxury....a luxury that we could not afford. The point was raised that perhaps the team did not like who was there among the defensive players. So what? The team appeared to be more than willing to give up valuable assets to move around in the draft, so it would necessarily follow that they should have done that to secure the defensive prospects they did like, or that they needed (i.e. 3-4 NT such as Raji or Brace). I am lukewarm about this selection because of the surrounding needs issues that were neglected, although the idea of Moreno and Hillis in the same backfield is certainly intriguing (and exciting). I am definitely excited to see that.

1b. Robert Ayers DE Tennessee- Ayers absolutely lit it up in the Senior Bowl practices. And those practices are very instructive because one can weigh a prospect against the very best at opposing positions. One need not resort to finding game tape of the player against a quality opponent, you can see it right there. It has been noted that Ayers is a versatile prospect, but it seems that given his weight, he would be best used as a 3-4 SOLB. Someone suggested that hopefully he could be our Adalius Thomas. The best argument in favor of this prospect is that he's Mayock's favorite and that is high praise indeed. But even Mayock suggested that it may take three years for him to really develop. Does this staff have that much time? Thankfully, if we revert back to a 4-3 in the next regime, I think Ayers could fit well as a DE there.

2a. Alphonso Smith CB Wake Forest- It was an error of biblical proportions for Denver to sacrifice its own 2010 first round selection to move up to secure the services of this cornerback. Denver is likely to be selecting in the Top 10 and maybe even Top 5 in the next draft, which will be a deeper draft. To throw that away because you have a hard on for a small cornerback is irrational. Now, Smith is a gifted player and despite his size, he can definitely play. However, it appears that he would be best in the slot or against smaller recievers as he would struggle against king-sized possession recievers. There is a credible argument that Denver did need to get younger at this position given that Bailey is getting older and the FA additions were not spring chickens themselves, but this does not justify addressing the position this high (and elevating it over the DL) and it absolutely does not justify burning the 2010 pick. I don't know whether we are a hardheaded franchise or what, but the lesson has been demonstrated to us over and over again the last few years that it is best to build the defense from the front going backwards not vice versa. That's especially true in a 3-4 when the NT is at the fulcrum of the defense. We have not learned that lesson.

2b. Darcel McBath S Texas Tech- It is certainly reasonable for Denver to address their safety need. They did acquire short term answers to the position in FA, but obviously there was a need for an infusion of young talent as well. The problem is that by this point in the draft, Denver STILL had not really addressed the Defensive Line. What we needed to do, if we were going to trade up, was trade up from 48 to the late 30s to take Ron Brace ahead of NE, using this pick along with a 3rd, rather than burning both thirds on some blocking TE and also burning the first next year. The DL absolutely needed to be addressed, esp. NT before S. And it wasn't. And it still hasn't. With regard to McBath, he does bring more of presence in the pass defense than we are used to, which is refreshing, but Rashad Johnson of Alabama would have been a better choice. Johnson is very instinctive and a ballhawk who succeeded in a tougher conference. McBath is a solid prospect, but this was a bit of a reach and he made a large share of his big plays (and picks) in a single game last season. His range is solid, however and between McBath and Barrett, perhaps we will have a credible young duo of safeties for the future (when Dawkins and Hill are ready to go in about 2 years).

2c. Richard Quinn TE UNC- This is just flat out criminal negligence. There appears to be no rhyme or reason, here. Daniel Graham is a top-flight blocking TE. He is still fairly young and is devastatingly effective (and still has a few years left on his deal). Why would we get another blocking TE? Especially when, again, we STILL hadn't addressed the 3-4 NT or DE position. An argument could be made that if they planned to ship Scheffler out, a pass catching TE would be needed (if that were even used in this offense), but even that rationale wouldn't work here. It might work with someone like the underrated and forgotten but highly talented Cornelius Ingram, but not this stiff. This was a joke. And burning the two thirds (even though they got a 4th back) was probably the worst part of it.

Best Thing Denver Did: They avoided Rey Maualauga.
Worst Thing Denver Did: (Tie) An amazing disregard for draft pick assets and a failure to address the 3-4 DL positions in any way.

Overall Grade: D
SoCal...you're one of the few truly exceptional analysts in here when it comes to player moves. You're kinder than I am here. I give them an unqualified "F". Let's see what we could have had if we'd using the same assets:

1) Trade one of those three 2nd rounders with the #12 and move to get #8 from Jacksonville and draft BJ Raji to anchor the defense.

2) Trade the #18 pick plus a 2nd and a 4th to the 13th spot for Orakpo.

3) Trade next year's #1 plus the last 2nd rounder this year to move up for Jenkins.

Three starters, two in the front 7 and a CB opposite Champ who would also be the draft's best safety.

Instead we got a runner who will split time in a 1-back offense, a hybrid who is to small for 3-4 DE and to slow for OLB and a nickel type CB...of course the blocking TE...who cares?

This absolutely stunk.

Never Trust a Snake
04-25-2009, 10:46 PM
I agree with the majority of what SoCal said. I give the draft a F though because it was evident the Broncos lost big time on the Cutler deal in terms of value.

Denver724
04-25-2009, 10:47 PM
I think all you naysayers will be pleasantly surprised once the season rolls around. I am somewhat shocked by all the negative reaction. I think the staff was very, very prepared (Horrible Preparation?). This is a great 1st day.

uplink
04-25-2009, 10:47 PM
One thing about all the players picked:

I think all will see some playing time next season with Smith sometimes in the nickel and Quinn in power 2 TE sets and McBath specializing in covering receiving TEs like the guy in San Diego.

I bet that went into the thinking of who would be chosen.

Furthermore, McD is thinking he doesn't have time to pick players who will develop later as he may only have a few years to produce a winner. He is picking people who will see the field in some capacity next season and who will likely achieve a roster spot.

DaFace
04-25-2009, 10:48 PM
As a Chiefs fan, I have to say that I agree with this entirely. Nicely done.

Atlas
04-25-2009, 10:49 PM
That said I expect Scheffler to be gone tomorrow and Peppers to be a Bronco. Yeah I said it, now lets see if it happens! :)

That will be impossible. Peppers never signed his tender sheet so he can't be traded.

Finger Roll
04-25-2009, 10:51 PM
Denver took Mayocks #3 and #4 players and yet people b****. I am convinced the majority of posters here don't know what they are talking about.

The only issue today was the overspending.

yeah this board has become very unpleasant to read lately. I can't stand all this pessimistic bs

Taco John
04-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Come on, dude.

Even you can't be happy with us.

You have been one of the leading proponents (actually, probably THE leading proponent) of the theory that we need to learn the lesson of building the defense from the defensive front first, because it all starts upfront, esp in the 3-4. You have reiterated this over and over. And you were right, Popps. And you continue to be right. And we more or less ignored the front. We got a very promising SOLB prospect, but literally nothing at NT or either of the DE positions. Literally. I would think that this would bother you greatly, Popps, especially given that we burned 2 more oppurtunities tomorrow morning to finally address these spots (and a probable Top 10 pick next year on a cornerback).



The good news is that everybody gets to tell Popps to shut up when he starts whining about defense from here on out. You can't spend years whining about the defense, and then play the satisfied customer when we completely ignore the most crucial positions that we need on defense for the two offensive positions that we're deepest at.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Too bad a zing to you means pretty much squat. Popps has more football knowledge in his pinkie then you have period. I respect SoCal but he is too emotional and irrational. You, well you just have no clue..... :wave: ^5

I have enough of a clue to know that Mattias Askew and Ryan McBean and are not ready for prime time. Period. I don't think Kenny Peterson is ready to start either, Marcus Thomas is new to DE, and Ron Field has started only a handful of games in his career.

And that most definitely WAS a zinger. Popps has preached "D-line first" (and I've always joined him) long before you signed on this board son. And the fact he's pimping a 5-pick Day 1 draft with ZERO d-linemen is a zinger in anybody's book.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 10:59 PM
The good news is that everybody gets to tell Popps to shut up when he starts whining about defense from here on out. You can't spend years whining about the defense, and then play the satisfied customer when we completely ignore the most crucial positions that we need on defense for the two offensive positions that we're deepest at.

Bingo again .... I hope ApaOps can read through his tears of joy :~ohyah!:

BroncoMan4ever
04-25-2009, 10:59 PM
SoCal glad to have you back. I give the draft a C so far. Knowshon was a great pick and Ayers is considered the best D player this draft by Mayock. But they quickly ruined a draft by over spending in the second. You don't give up a first in a draft considered good to great for a second in a draft considered mediocre to poor. All the players picked are solid players who will contribute immediately.

That said I expect Scheffler to be gone tomorrow and Peppers to be a Bronco. Yeah I said it, now lets see if it happens! :)

if Peppers becomes a Bronco i will **** a brick

summerdenver
04-25-2009, 11:00 PM
Broncos definitely missed a trick in not trying to trade up to 8 and take Raji. I mean everyone knew that GB was going to take him. Heck they could have traded back and still gotten Ayers and recovered what they paid for Raji.

DB and TE picks are head scratchers to me. I am with you socal, if they were willing to piss away top 10 pick next year they should have offered it to Pit and took Ziggy hood instead.

SouthStndJunkie
04-25-2009, 11:01 PM
Im gonna laugh my ass off when we go 13-3 next year and deep into the playoffs.

If that happens, mark this post....I will give you 2 tickets to a game.

tsiguy96
04-25-2009, 11:01 PM
yeah this board has become very unpleasant to read lately. I can't stand all this pessimistic bs

i agree completely. how people can come in here and bitch and moan for hours on end about how bad hte team is gonna be is beyond me. how can that be entertaining, fun, or even doable? why would you waste youre time doing that when you can come in and realize that none of us are GMs, none of us know the plans for the team, none of us even work for football teams much less NFL teams. no one here has ever or will ever build a professional football team or be in the NFL draft, the fact that people here get stuck so much on the notion that "if they dont draft this guy or this guy this draft is a failure" is absolutely ridiculous. winning teams dont draft like that, they take BPA that fit the scheme and style of play, thats exactly what mcdaniels did, and if he saw a player he wanted when the draft board was running thin he made a move to make sure he got them.

maher_tyler
04-25-2009, 11:01 PM
I love how everyone here dogs on McD and the players picked before he's coached 1 game and before the players have played 1 game!!

BroncoMan4ever
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
That will be impossible. Peppers never signed his tender sheet so he can't be traded.

thank god. i really don't want that guy

NFLBRONCO
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
The good news is that everybody gets to tell Popps to shut up when he starts whining about defense from here on out. You can't spend years whining about the defense, and then play the satisfied customer when we completely ignore the most crucial positions that we need on defense for the two offensive positions that we're deepest at.

Denver always seems to address 2nd or 3rd tier needs and neglect or even try really bolstering biggest need. It doesn't matter who runs the team everybody does it.

manchambo
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
im curious how this all turns out when it actually matters: on the field

you all seem to think championships are won in april, ive never seen one that is. championships are built when teams take good players and make them play well together in a good scheme. the TE pick is a bit disconcerning but i will worry about it after i see how they perform and fit in with the team.


See, they aren't actually playing games right now. They're having the draft. And so, people are talking about the draft.

This sort of comment is just a way of saying "I can't think of any defense for the team's actions, so I'm going to pretend that talking about the draft is stupid."

theAPAOps5
04-25-2009, 11:02 PM
Bingo again .... I hope ApaOps can read through his tears of joy :~ohyah!:

Unlike bandwagon fans I can appreciate solid picks. You cant and like my family taught me don't pick on the mentally inferior. So good luck but call me when you want to understand football. :)

McDman
04-25-2009, 11:04 PM
I cried.

With so many things of such greater importance in this world, it may seem terribly selfish and small to be so concerned and troubled by this, but I did. I cried.

I wasn't all that thrilled with the McDaniels hiring to start with, and now this.

I thought that maybe, just maybe this young man has keen instincts and some that Belichick football savvy.

It would seem he has neither.

This is awful beyond measure. A very sad day for Bronco fans, especially those away from home.

Please tell me this is a joke.

NFLBRONCO
04-25-2009, 11:04 PM
Where trading for Peppers when we traded a 2010 pick for financal reasons

~Crash~
04-25-2009, 11:04 PM
We spent a ****load of our free agent resources on assorted running backs....and then we draft one with our first pick.

I am cool with the Moreno pick, but I am sure all the RBs McDaniels conned into signing here are all like WTF?

I have come to the idea 0-16 is a full blowen tard

BroncoMan4ever
04-25-2009, 11:05 PM
Broncos definitely missed a trick in not trying to trade up to 8 and take Raji. I mean everyone knew that GB was going to take him. Heck they could have traded back and still gotten Ayers and recovered what they paid for Raji.

DB and TE picks are head scratchers to me. I am with you socal, if they were willing to piss away top 10 pick next year they should have offered it to Pit and took Ziggy hood instead.

sorry to burst your bubble but we won't be picking top 10 next season.

our offense carried us to 8-8 this year, with no running threat and a terrible defense.

we have upgraded the running game, added some leaders to the D as well as dumped dead weight from the D. and sorry to piss off the Cutler nut swingers, but his offensive output of 370 points will be matched by Orton. so we will at worst be the same as we were last season or better

~Crash~
04-25-2009, 11:06 PM
Where trading for Peppers when we traded a 2010 pick for financal reasons

no we were trading 5 years away today.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 11:08 PM
Unlike bandwagon fans I can appreciate solid picks. You cant and like my family taught me don't pick on the mentally inferior. So good luck but call me when you want to understand football. :)

Wow, you're serious.

I thought we were friends ???

Oh well ....

SouthStndJunkie
04-25-2009, 11:09 PM
I love how everyone here dogs on McD and the players picked before he's coached 1 game and before the players have played 1 game!!

I love how the rest of you polish his knob before he's coached 1 game!!

Popps
04-25-2009, 11:10 PM
Come on, dude.

Even you can't be happy with us.


Even me? I've criticized our drafts in the past, so I have no problem speaking up if I'm not happy. You know I'm willing to criticize this team/staff when need be. (See Travis Henry, Cutler, Marshall, various other situations.)


You have been one of the leading proponents (actually, probably THE leading proponent) of the theory that we need to learn the lesson of building the defense from the defensive front first, because it all starts upfront, esp in the 3-4. You have reiterated this over and over..

We took the DE that Mayock said would be the best defensive player in this draft. That's not making a move to help the line? Have you watched this guy play?

I will say, I would have preferred to go after a RB with our 3rd pick and grabbed a LB or another DE in the first, but who? Look how far some of these "great prospects" slid. Maulaluga in the 2nd round. Everett Brown?

Apparently, a lot of other teams thought a lot of these LB/DL prospects weren't that great.

So, add to that... we just shored up our offense with a true weapon. (Remember how different this team was with Portis?) I love Hillis, but I also love the idea of a Johnson/White type attack for us.

As for addressing the secondary, I said last night that I thought we would (and should) address safety in the 2nd round.

My biggest question will be to see how the trade for Smith ends up. McDaniels said they had him rated as a 1st round talent all along. I also knew we'd go CB on day one. We were too depleted in the secondary.
But, yea... trading away the #1 was a ballsy or stupid move. We'll see.

But, a D grade? C'mon, dude yourself. I'll call this a B- with a chance to easily end up an A, or a D. But, to call it a D now is not being realistic.

Northman
04-25-2009, 11:10 PM
My thoughts:

1a. Knowshon Moreno, RB Georgia- There's no question that Knowshon is a talented player. He is elusive, creative and instinctive. He's also a credible threat out of the backfield and a very good blocker. He jukes a little too much and did not really explode his final year as much as I thought he would. Nonetheless, Mayock likes him the best of the RBs. This is a theme of the Broncos draft: in the abstract, the player selected is a quality player, but it does not appear that the Broncos have their priorities set properly. While we did have a ton of RBs hit the IR last year, RB at this spot was absolutely nothing more than a mere luxury....a luxury that we could not afford. The point was raised that perhaps the team did not like who was there among the defensive players. So what? The team appeared to be more than willing to give up valuable assets to move around in the draft, so it would necessarily follow that they should have done that to secure the defensive prospects they did like, or that they needed (i.e. 3-4 NT such as Raji or Brace). I am lukewarm about this selection because of the surrounding needs issues that were neglected, although the idea of Moreno and Hillis in the same backfield is certainly intriguing (and exciting). I am definitely excited to see that.

1b. Robert Ayers DE Tennessee- Ayers absolutely lit it up in the Senior Bowl practices. And those practices are very instructive because one can weigh a prospect against the very best at opposing positions. One need not resort to finding game tape of the player against a quality opponent, you can see it right there. It has been noted that Ayers is a versatile prospect, but it seems that given his weight, he would be best used as a 3-4 SOLB. Someone suggested that hopefully he could be our Adalius Thomas. The best argument in favor of this prospect is that he's Mayock's favorite and that is high praise indeed. But even Mayock suggested that it may take three years for him to really develop. Does this staff have that much time? Thankfully, if we revert back to a 4-3 in the next regime, I think Ayers could fit well as a DE there.

2a. Alphonso Smith CB Wake Forest- It was an error of biblical proportions for Denver to sacrifice its own 2010 first round selection to move up to secure the services of this cornerback. Denver is likely to be selecting in the Top 10 and maybe even Top 5 in the next draft, which will be a deeper draft. To throw that away because you have a hard on for a small cornerback is irrational. Now, Smith is a gifted player and despite his size, he can definitely play. However, it appears that he would be best in the slot or against smaller recievers as he would struggle against king-sized possession recievers. There is a credible argument that Denver did need to get younger at this position given that Bailey is getting older and the FA additions were not spring chickens themselves, but this does not justify addressing the position this high (and elevating it over the DL) and it absolutely does not justify burning the 2010 pick. I don't know whether we are a hardheaded franchise or what, but the lesson has been demonstrated to us over and over again the last few years that it is best to build the defense from the front going backwards not vice versa. That's especially true in a 3-4 when the NT is at the fulcrum of the defense. We have not learned that lesson.

2b. Darcel McBath S Texas Tech- It is certainly reasonable for Denver to address their safety need. They did acquire short term answers to the position in FA, but obviously there was a need for an infusion of young talent as well. The problem is that by this point in the draft, Denver STILL had not really addressed the Defensive Line. What we needed to do, if we were going to trade up, was trade up from 48 to the late 30s to take Ron Brace ahead of NE, using this pick along with a 3rd, rather than burning both thirds on some blocking TE and also burning the first next year. The DL absolutely needed to be addressed, esp. NT before S. And it wasn't. And it still hasn't. With regard to McBath, he does bring more of presence in the pass defense than we are used to, which is refreshing, but Rashad Johnson of Alabama would have been a better choice. Johnson is very instinctive and a ballhawk who succeeded in a tougher conference. McBath is a solid prospect, but this was a bit of a reach and he made a large share of his big plays (and picks) in a single game last season. His range is solid, however and between McBath and Barrett, perhaps we will have a credible young duo of safeties for the future (when Dawkins and Hill are ready to go in about 2 years).

2c. Richard Quinn TE UNC- This is just flat out criminal negligence. There appears to be no rhyme or reason, here. Daniel Graham is a top-flight blocking TE. He is still fairly young and is devastatingly effective (and still has a few years left on his deal). Why would we get another blocking TE? Especially when, again, we STILL hadn't addressed the 3-4 NT or DE position. An argument could be made that if they planned to ship Scheffler out, a pass catching TE would be needed (if that were even used in this offense), but even that rationale wouldn't work here. It might work with someone like the underrated and forgotten but highly talented Cornelius Ingram, but not this stiff. This was a joke. And burning the two thirds (even though they got a 4th back) was probably the worst part of it.

Best Thing Denver Did: They avoided Rey Maualauga.
Worst Thing Denver Did: (Tie) An amazing disregard for draft pick assets and a failure to address the 3-4 DL positions in any way.

Overall Grade: D


No Arguement from me. We definitely reached in the wrong places in the second round.

summerdenver
04-25-2009, 11:12 PM
Unlike bandwagon fans I can appreciate solid picks.

People like you are acting like its a act of treason if a fan were to disagree with a decision of FO. There is nothing wrong with that and it is perfectly possible to support your team and disagree with the coach's decisions.

Socal or BB or anyone else don't have to prove our fanhoods to you. Quit being an ass and stop pulling the true fan card. It is becoming tedious now.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 11:13 PM
We took the DE that Mayock said would be the best defensive player in this draft. That's not making a move to help the line? Have you watched this guy play?

Yes, he's excellent ... I drafted him for the chefs in the Mock Draft.

But he is a 4-3 DE ... and a 3-4 SOLB.

We NEED defensive linemen, that's the point here.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-25-2009, 11:14 PM
I have to agree with most of what SoCal said. I understand the Moreno pick because Raji was off the board and I never mind committment to the running game. I'm lukewarm on Ayers, but if they feel he's the right pass rusher, i'll defer to their judgement.

The second round (with the exception of the McBath pick) was utterly disgusting. For years we've watched a decent secondary get continuously burned due to a sub par front seven. This defense needed nastiness, strength, and power and we didn't do anything to address that. I'd have loved to see brace here, a trade up for Raji, or a guy like Maualuga to give us some run support. YOU CANT WIN IN THE NFL IF YOU CANT STOP THE RUN. McDaniels even SAID this not long ago, yet did nothing to address the problem today.

Re: Quinn. Nothing against Quinn as a player, I'm sure he'll be a nice player, but its completely unnecessary 1) to pick him and 2) to TRADE UP FOR HIM. We HAVE a blocking tight end and thousands of defensive holes. I just can't even begin to understand the thought process here at all. You look at Pitt, Ravens, etc and their common denominator is a dynamite front seven. We prefer to collect DB's and blocking tight ends.

First round: B+
Second Round D-

tsiguy96
04-25-2009, 11:16 PM
See, they aren't actually playing games right now. They're having the draft. And so, people are talking about the draft.

This sort of comment is just a way of saying "I can't think of any defense for the team's actions, so I'm going to pretend that talking about the draft is stupid."

no, its a way of saying "we have no idea if these guys will really turn out or how effectively they will be used in the system and what impact they will have on the team, so to predict them as busts or all stars right now is ridiculous"

Rohirrim
04-25-2009, 11:16 PM
i agree completely. how people can come in here and b**** and moan for hours on end about how bad hte team is gonna be is beyond me. how can that be entertaining, fun, or even doable? why would you waste youre time doing that when you can come in and realize that none of us are GMs, none of us know the plans for the team, none of us even work for football teams much less NFL teams. no one here has ever or will ever build a professional football team or be in the NFL draft, the fact that people here get stuck so much on the notion that "if they dont draft this guy or this guy this draft is a failure" is absolutely ridiculous. winning teams dont draft like that, they take BPA that fit the scheme and style of play, thats exactly what mcdaniels did, and if he saw a player he wanted when the draft board was running thin he made a move to make sure he got them.

Man, are you really this stupid? What do think, football is rocket science? This team failed utterly last season because it could not stop the run. None of the picks made today will alleviate that issue. I don't care how many BPAs on the offense McD brings in. If you don't stop the run, the opposing D tees off on your sorry ass because it knows that every time the offense gets the ball, it's going to score. Football is simple. They try to run. You try to stop them. You try to run. They try to stop you. If you can run better than them while stopping them from running, you win. The pass is secondary to the core running concept. You think these GMs and coaches are geniuses? Stephen Hawking is a genius. These guys are football coaches. The Broncos brain trust chose a bunch of players for its roster today that did nothing to address it's major needs: Can't stop the run, no pass rush. Rent a clue.

BroncoBuff
04-25-2009, 11:16 PM
ApaOps is not acting like himself. He really attacked me there - personally - even though I tell ya, we have been friends here.

He turned on me like a vicious dog there :~ohyah!:

nickademus
04-25-2009, 11:16 PM
So Cal I couldnt have said it better. I actually didnt mind the first round but to blow our top pick next year is criminal especially if Orton/Simms doesnt work. So now we can kiss any chance at a real DT or a quality QB to develop goodbye.

summerdenver
04-25-2009, 11:17 PM
We took the DE that Mayock said would be the best defensive player in this draft. That's not making a move to help the line? Have you watched this guy play?



Problem with that is Popps, where does he play for us? He makes sense if we stay in 4-3. But in 3-4 Ayers is light to play DE or NT.

SoCalBronco
04-25-2009, 11:18 PM
I really, really wish we could have secured Raji or Brace. It was right there within our grasp to do so (and it would have been accomplished much more cheaply than the price we paid for non-priority area picks today).

We will have two 4ths. Hopefully some kids can fall and we can address things there, but I suspect the talent pool will have thinned out considerably by then. We'll see what happens tomorrow, hopefully they can put forth alot better of an effort.

Never Trust a Snake
04-25-2009, 11:19 PM
and sorry to piss off the Cutler nut swingers, but his offensive output of 370 points will be matched by Orton. so we will at worst be the same as we were last season or better

Orton is a bum. He's a below average QB.

55.3 career completion percentage

58.5 is his career high in completion percentage!

5.8 career yards/attempt

3 more career TDs than INT

Taco John
04-25-2009, 11:19 PM
I like the Moreno and Ayers picks. Everything else has me scratching my head. I can't believe we're trading up for this stuff - worse, we're not filling our crucial need for defensive linemen, the NT being the most important position that we needed to fill today.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Problem with that is Popps, where does he play for us? He makes sense if we stay in 4-3. But in 3-4 Ayers is light to play DE or NT.

He's going to man an OLB spot.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-25-2009, 11:21 PM
I like the Moreno and Ayers picks. Everything else has me scratching my head. I can't believe we're trading up for this stuff - worse, we're not filling our crucial need for defensive linemen, the NT being the most important position that we needed to fill today.

Agreed. its very flawed philosophy. Roh said it best when he said this isnt rocket science. First and foremost, a defense must stop the run. A nice front seven can mask a crap secondary, not the other way around. We did nothing to address this.

extralife
04-25-2009, 11:25 PM
Even me? I've criticized our drafts in the past, so I have no problem speaking up if I'm not happy. You know I'm willing to criticize this team/staff when need be. (See Travis Henry, Cutler, Marshall, various other situations.)

What you actually mean is you were more than willing to criticize Mike Shanahan. You have shown nothing but the party line since his firing, and I highly doubt anyone expected anything else. We could've drafted my dog and you'd call it a "gritty pick" that is needed to "create a playoff football team."

Vegas_Bronco
04-25-2009, 11:27 PM
I agree with the majority of what SoCal said. I give the draft a F though because it was evident the Broncos lost big time on the Cutler deal in terms of value.

This!

Not that we hate the new players, in fact, they are a great class from a somewhat dull pool. I like our players but we REEEEACCCCCHED like no other team in history today and it was bad! Fatal when you consider how we could have acquired the same thing and given up far less.

I love the Moreno pick....but not at 12. Ayers was a solid choice and I would have loved him at 12 and Moreno at 18....but that's a small beef, no big deal. So first two picks, I'm okay with.

THEN THE DRAFT WENT TO HELL FOR US -

We mortgaged next years top 15 pick for a corner who could have been had for a RB and an 2nd rounder...both of which we had in surplus. Instead, we give up at top 15 pick in a draft next year that could have yielded us a franchise QB - hell there are 2-3 QB's we could have had that would be 5-10 year starters.

If we were serious about Smith at that pick/spot - why not trade up this year with our 2010 pick and grab the best CB/S in the draft - JENKINS. We could have easily done that also with our 2010 first rounder and a third this year or less!!! Smith might be a great player....but he'll get his ass kicked against the larger WR's which accounts for 99% of the league. He is 5'9" and has a 34" vertical......against a 6'4" WR with a 40-45 inch vertical.....you do the math and tell me why we paid such a foolish price?

Then we REACHED again grabbed McBath...who was an early 3rd round pick at best. He is great in coverage...but really? A good Safety/CB was available in round 1 bubba - wth! You could have had him with the deal you pissed away for Smith.

After this pick...I was done. We gave up our natural 1st next season for whaaaat? Nothing against Smith, but he's not a top 15 pick this year or next. We needed value today and we gave up all of ours and burned picks on ridiculous positions.

So our draft today cost us 3 first round picks (2 in '09 and 1 in '10) - we gave up way too much for what we got men. Hell, I would have been more happy getting Sanchez and Moreno than giving up that pick to Seattle and then reaching for McBath. 2 huge mistakes, one right after another.

No matter which way you look at it....even if Smith and McBath turn out to be Pro Bowlers (lol!)....we gave up too much.

OrangeRising
04-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Please tell me this is a joke.

No joke. I cannot believe what this man is doing. Relative to the team needs, he has gone completely off the rails, and trading away next years' top draft choice for a smallish CB with "great ball skills"?

We now officially have more RBs than the AFC East. Can't pass, can't stop anyone, but boy, no worries about those nasty injuries stopping that running game, huh?

This trashing of the 3rd round for this TE?

Sad doesn't cover it, and the joke is running my team.

Rohirrim
04-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Frankly, I'm shocked. I guess when I heard McD was coming in I had visions of the Patriot's D. A squad of killer linebackers. Seymour. Wilfork. Returning to the days of the Orange Crush. I expected this draft to be all D line and LBs. Finally, after all these years of Shanahan's total neglect of defense, we would be turning the page. To say I'm disappointed is not strong enough. This day was pathetic.

Archer81
04-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Orton is a bum. He's a below average QB.

55.3 career completion percentage

58.5 is his career high in completion percentage!

5.8 career yards/attempt

3 more career TDs than INT



21 wins. 12 losses. As a starter.


:Broncos:

GeniusatWork
04-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I totally disagree. I think it was a wonderful first day. It shows we are moving to a power running game with the picks of Moreno and Quinn. I love the Ayers, Smith and McBath picks. Sure, I don't like losing next years #1, but I think Smith could be an asset this season. Six more picks tomorrow and undrafted FA's. I think we will look back in a few years and really be happy with this draft.

I agree with you and I agree with So Cal also though. I didn't like passing on Barwin and Kruger and Brace, but this Al Smith and Mcbath are turnover guys, INT guys, something every team needs and especially us in the pass-happy AFC West. McD and Nolan had a chance to look at their own DL and LB people last weekend so they must have liked what they saw as opposed to drafting unknowns.

watermock
04-25-2009, 11:29 PM
McDummy is a type 1 b!tch. Arrogant, stupid, and agressive. Thinks her sh!t don't stink too.

It's unreal how bowlen has ruined the franchise in 4 months.

Rohirrim
04-25-2009, 11:32 PM
I agree with you and I agree with So Cal also though. I didn't like passing on Barwin and Kruger and Brace, but this Al Smith and Mcbath are turnover guys, INT guys, something every team needs and especially us in the pass-happy AFC West. McD and Nolan had a chance to look at their own DL and LB people last weekend so they must have liked what they saw as opposed to drafting unknowns.

If you can't stop the run, turnovers have very little value.

worm
04-25-2009, 11:32 PM
Thinking positively...All these picks appear to be quality human beings. Leaders. Hard workers. To add to the mix of players like Royal, Larson, Hillis and Woodyard from last year.

I don't think that these are the best positions for the Denver Broncos to build their football team around first given their needs. However, this team is LOADED now with quality people who will work their ass off.

I would bet a ton on the fact that you will not see this TEAM quit this year. Like recent memories.

I think the value sucked..at positions that I don't rate as the most important in terms of need for Denver...but I really like the individuals.

Never underestimate heart and desire. Of course we still may not be much better at stopping the run this year....but this team IS getting better.

Northman
04-25-2009, 11:33 PM
I like the Moreno and Ayers picks. Everything else has me scratching my head. I can't believe we're trading up for this stuff - worse, we're not filling our crucial need for defensive linemen, the NT being the most important position that we needed to fill today.

Same here.

summerdenver
04-25-2009, 11:35 PM
ApaOps is not acting like himself. He really attacked me there - personally - even though I tell ya, we have been friends here.

He turned on me like a vicious dog there :~ohyah!:

I have nothing against apa or his views that Broncos have a good draft. It makes for interesting discussion when people disagree. However, offlate if anyone critisizes anything that FO does there is atleast one poster who will brand them as some kind of traitor and anti bronco fan substance. It is becoming tedious now.

Vegas_Bronco
04-25-2009, 11:40 PM
WHEN WE PLAY THE COLTS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaUrgq2fnXs&feature=PlayList&p=611A757D84A3AD42&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

SoCalBronco
04-25-2009, 11:44 PM
21 wins. 12 losses. As a starter.


:Broncos:

Everyone knows the Bears defense (and Hester) were the engine that drove that team's success. You've got to go behind the record to look at the actual cause(s). This is like saying Jake was doing a great job in the first half of 2006 just because we were 6-2.

Atwater His Ass
04-25-2009, 11:44 PM
Unlike bandwagon fans I can appreciate solid picks. You cant and like my family taught me don't pick on the mentally inferior. So good luck but call me when you want to understand football. :)

You know apa, you are really an idiot. At one time I really liked reading your posts, but you've transformed into some kind of internet retard.

You act like the crimial overspending in this draft to address two areas of non-need (CB and TE) isn't anything to bat an eye about. Especially when we have Kyle ****ing Orton at QB. Putting all your eggs in that basket is criminal as well. And we threw away any chance we had of really having some firepower to address QB next year if Orton fails. For a CB. You're right. That's ****ing awesome. Long live McFailure.

This man is driving this organization into the ground. Some of us can see that. When this is all said and done and you're licking your wounds, you'll understand that.

But ****, it's so much more fun to play the "im a real fan" card amirite?

Archer81
04-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Everyone knows the Bears defense (and Hester) were the engine that drove that team's success. You've got to go behind the record to look at the actual cause(s). This is like saying Jake was doing a great job in the first half of 2006 just because we were 6-2.


Good grief...


:Broncos:

spdirty
04-25-2009, 11:52 PM
I agree with socal. Thank God I was at a poker party till now and was able to avoid the insanity.

Par for the course with how this offseason has been. Now kinda in the camp where I am willing to absorb whatever needs to be absorbed to get this mother ****er out of here as soon as possible.

Kaylore
04-25-2009, 11:52 PM
As I said elsewhere, I have no problem with the actual players. I think they'll be good (well I am skeptical of McBath). The problem is the payment. I would have taken Brace with our first second rounder instead of the corner. I mean I love Alphonso Smith, but why not take Brace? He was good enough for the Patsies a few picks later!

anon
04-26-2009, 12:07 AM
Good thoughts -- I think part of McD's agenda is to bring cultural change to the locker room. Adding more players with heart and desire also improves the entire team, albeit in more subtle ways. This is of course also thinking optimistically, but then again I want to see the Broncos win more than I am concerned about being right or wrong about McD this early. Don't have info either way at this point.


Thinking positively...All these picks appear to be quality human beings. Leaders. Hard workers. To add to the mix of players like Royal, Larson, Hillis and Woodyard from last year.

I don't think that these are the best positions for the Denver Broncos to build their football team around first given their needs. However, this team is LOADED now with quality people who will work their ass off.

I would bet a ton on the fact that you will not see this TEAM quit this year. Like recent memories.

I think the value sucked..at positions that I don't rate as the most important in terms of need for Denver...but I really like the individuals.

Never underestimate heart and desire. Of course we still may not be much better at stopping the run this year....but this team IS getting better.

~Crash~
04-26-2009, 12:09 AM
Wow, you're serious.

I thought we were friends ???

Oh well ....

don't waste your time on the ass muchie Put him were he belongs igy

~Crash~
04-26-2009, 12:10 AM
McDummy is a type 1 b!tch. Arrogant, stupid, and agressive. Thinks her **** don't stink too.

It's unreal how bowlen has ruined the franchise in 4 months.

agreed mock

GeniusatWork
04-26-2009, 12:18 AM
If you can't stop the run, turnovers have very little value.

Maybe they think they can stop the run. We added good tacklers with Andra Davis and Dawkins, DJ is a good tackler, Powell is supposed to be a good run stopper, Fields has run stopping ability. We signed a DL guy from INdy also. Turnovers are as important as stopping the run.

Drek
04-26-2009, 12:18 AM
This!

Not that we hate the new players, in fact, they are a great class from a somewhat dull pool. I like our players but we REEEEACCCCCHED like no other team in history today and it was bad! Fatal when you consider how we could have acquired the same thing and given up far less.

I love the Moreno pick....but not at 12. Ayers was a solid choice and I would have loved him at 12 and Moreno at 18....but that's a small beef, no big deal. So first two picks, I'm okay with.
You do realize this makes absolutely no sense right?

Moreno is the only elite back in the draft who also fits our system (if you consider Beanie Wells an elite back). Ayers, Orakpo, Cushing, Matthews, and English were all still on the board at #12. Five picks were going to be made between us.

So what do you do if you want one of each? Take the guy with five comparables still on the board, or the guy without another comparable player in the draft?

It was a smart bit of draft analysis that made them take Moreno first, then Ayers.

We mortgaged next years top 15 pick for a corner who could have been had for a RB and an 2nd rounder...both of which we had in surplus. Instead, we give up at top 15 pick in a draft next year that could have yielded us a franchise QB - hell there are 2-3 QB's we could have had that would be 5-10 year starters.
1. Why do you assume its a top 15 pick? We were 8-8 and nearly won the division in a year when the offense continually failed in the red zone and the defense was completely mismanaged, not to mention plagued with injuries on both sides of the ball. Superior schemes on both sides of the ball and a mass exodus of scrubs and influx of solid vets has already overhauled the D. The rest of the division has largely tread water this off-season. So why can't we win the division?

2. Do you really think McDaniels would take a first round QB? He's built his rep on developing later round guys and helping guys take those big steps forward in productivity. He's going to look to groom someone late, thats just the facts.

If we were serious about Smith at that pick/spot - why not trade up this year with our 2010 pick and grab the best CB/S in the draft - JENKINS. We could have easily done that also with our 2010 first rounder and a third this year or less!!! Smith might be a great player....but he'll get his ass kicked against the larger WR's which accounts for 99% of the league. He is 5'9" and has a 34" vertical......against a 6'4" WR with a 40-45 inch vertical.....you do the math and tell me why we paid such a foolish price?
There are more than a few 5'9" CBs who're doing just fine in the league, FYI.

And how exactly does a 2010 first and a 2009 3rd get us up to the 14th overall pick?

Then we REACHED again grabbed McBath...who was an early 3rd round pick at best. He is great in coverage...but really? A good Safety/CB was available in round 1 bubba - wth! You could have had him with the deal you pissed away for Smith.
They took a cover safety who fits the scheme they want to play. Hence bringing Renaldo Hill in as well. They're pretty similar players really, former CBs who converted over to safety in college or shortly thereafter in Hill's case. I know it seems weird, a team drafting guys who fit a certain positional mold, but maybe give it a shot before flipping out on it?

No matter which way you look at it....even if Smith and McBath turn out to be Pro Bowlers (lol!)....we gave up too much.
Yes, if it turns out McDaniels identified two pro-bowl DBs in the second round he gave up too much to assure us of getting them.
:rofl:

Atlas
04-26-2009, 12:20 AM
What you actually mean is you were more than willing to criticize Mike Shanahan. You have shown nothing but the party line since his firing, and I highly doubt anyone expected anything else. We could've drafted my dog and you'd call it a "gritty pick" that is needed to "create a playoff football team."

Hilarious!

Drek
04-26-2009, 12:21 AM
Then they should have ****ing traded up for Raji since they are apparently willing to piss away picks like they aren't worth anything. He was taken just a few spots ahead of us. We could have given Jax a 3rd....hell both 3rds and secured our Vince Wilfork.

That would have been a hell of alot better than pissing away both thirds anyway and also a top 10 pick next year.

BJ Raji is not Vince Wilfork.

He's more like Haloti Ngata, minus some of the mean streak, a lot of the work ethic, and plus some character concerns and off-field baggage.

He's a big risk to blow up in the Packers' faces.

Atlas
04-26-2009, 12:23 AM
21 wins. 12 losses. As a starter.


:Broncos:

With the Bears defense, in a poor division

DeusExManning
04-26-2009, 12:23 AM
Based on Mcdaniels interview, we did not give up our first but the worst of the two whatever that is.

Atlas
04-26-2009, 12:33 AM
Based on Mcdaniels interview, we did not give up our first but the worst of the two whatever that is.

I would feel much better if that is the case

footstepsfrom#27
04-26-2009, 12:44 AM
Frankly, I'm shocked. I guess when I heard McD was coming in I had visions of the Patriot's D. A squad of killer linebackers. Seymour. Wilfork. Returning to the days of the Orange Crush. I expected this draft to be all D line and LBs. Finally, after all these years of Shanahan's total neglect of defense, we would be turning the page. To say I'm disappointed is not strong enough. This day was pathetic.
Had we played with the same picks we gave up today and been smart we could have landed 3 starters on D...Raji, Orakpo and Jenkins...or any reasonable facsimile thereof.

As stupid as some of Shanny's drafts were...this set a new standard.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-26-2009, 12:50 AM
Had we played with the same picks we gave up today and been smart we could have landed 3 starters on D...Raji, Orakpo and Jenkins...or any reasonable facsimile thereof.

As stupid as some of Shanny's drafts were...this set a new standard.

First off, if they wanted either Orakpo or jenkins, they could have drafted them. They didnt and i don't blame them, neither excite me. yes, i would have advocated trading up for Raji. For me, its not the players they got. I like Smith as a player and Quinn im sure will be fine, its just what they gave up for them while ignoring the front 7.

GeniusatWork
04-26-2009, 01:25 AM
Frankly, I'm shocked. I guess when I heard McD was coming in I had visions of the Patriot's D. A squad of killer linebackers. Seymour. Wilfork. Returning to the days of the Orange Crush. I expected this draft to be all D line and LBs. Finally, after all these years of Shanahan's total neglect of defense, we would be turning the page. To say I'm disappointed is not strong enough. This day was pathetic.

You're discounting what we had already. DJ is a good LB, Andra Davis is a good LB, Woodyard and Larsen are good Lb's. Thomas is a serviceable DL, Peterson, Fields, Powell, all add up to a decent run stopping unit and add in Ayers. Dawkins is a sure tackler still at SS. We already had a good core of tacklers.

The team needs turnovers really bad. They went for players that can get INTs. And added in a TE/OL Quinn that projects to be a chain mover. We sure paid a heavy price, hopefully it doesn't come back to hauint us.

watermock
04-26-2009, 01:29 AM
Opposing fans have been laughing it up for 4 months.

Incredibly, we were outfailed by Al Davis.

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 01:41 AM
Opposing fans have been laughing it up for 4 months.

Incredibly, we were outfailed by Al Davis.

Barely.

TDmvp
04-26-2009, 01:46 AM
Barely.

http://www.failish.com/pictures/2009/03/failish-mcdonalds-shamrock-shake-mcfail.jpg


It was craptastic ...

SoDak Bronco
04-26-2009, 01:47 AM
Epic Fail

SoDak Bronco
04-26-2009, 01:48 AM
this draft reaks of desperation..

footstepsfrom#27
04-26-2009, 01:53 AM
First off, if they wanted either Orakpo or jenkins, they could have drafted them. They didnt and i don't blame them, neither excite me. yes, i would have advocated trading up for Raji. For me, its not the players they got. I like Smith as a player and Quinn im sure will be fine, its just what they gave up for them while ignoring the front 7.
Thanks for making my point. We had no reason to give up anything near what we surrendered. Players ranked much higher could have been had for what we paid. Don't like my examples? Fine...that's why I said, "or reasonable facsimilies thereof"

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 01:56 AM
Thanks for making my point. We had no reason to give up anything near what we surrendered. Players ranked much higher could have been had for what we paid. Don't like my examples? Fine...that's why I said, "or reasonable facsimilies thereof"

It's amazing to me that potential knowledgeable posters such as apa can't freakin' see this. It's not who we drafted (although that is part of it), it's what we mortaged to do it with.

Hulamau
04-26-2009, 02:42 AM
Keep slobbering on McDaniels knob, if you think today will solve our defensive issues you are insane. I can't for the life of me see what anyone see's with this guy. He is an idiot of the highest order and will run this team into the ground. Today was just the second example of his lunacy.

'Solving' the defense scttgrd is a two year deal at best. If Raji or Jackson had been there they would have taken either of them. That was good planning, but Raji wasn't worth a move to get him at that level. I'm not sure he's the guy they really wanted, character-wise, smarts wise and the whole package. At least not enough to jump up for him.

And if you cant for the life of you see any redeeming qualities in McD and really think he is some lunatic running the team deliberately into the ground, then perhaps you just need to take off your hate glasses for a bit to get a clearer view!

A few of you guys are just relentlessly negative and seem to have a b****-fest with what ever the Broncos do!

One little thing to consider , if you would take the time to actually listen to McD with your elbows out of your ears, during his increasingly detailed and rather revealing press conferences such as the 30 minute pre-draft presser, He pretty much laid out the grounds for all of this fairly clearly, and even said almost directly that he was going to take an offensive player with one of the first two picks ( and who else would it have been but Moreno or (thank god not) Sanchez?

One thing he emphasized a few times was that many other-wise highly touted and popular players who may be athletic and all, could well fall off of their draft board IF they deemed through their in-depth investigation that these guys did not have the IQ and instinctive smarts necessary to be creative and flexible in this complex and highly flexible and adaptive system.

A key point he made was that how they play EACH and every week with very different schemes and game plans for whatever team we are facing required a difficult and not so common mental sharpness, and that THIS was a higher premium for them over just raw athletic talent.

No matter how good a player is at doing certain things, if he cant line it up right in the moment and adapt to changing schemes from week to week, he's not going to be very helpful.

Keep that in mind next time you see McD go for someone you think isn't of good 'value' at the spot over one of your Mock Draft darlings!

Maybe he makes a good choice or a bad choice, time will tell, but I can almost guarantee you it wont be a random choice or one made from "stupidity" as you insist!

What we need is solid improvement from our #28 or #30 defense or whatever we were last two years, to middle of the road by season's end.

Combine that incremental improvement with an even more productive and dangerous offense, which I definitely expect, with this system and Moreno/Hillis helping to solve our red zone problems of the past couple years of LOUSY running, and we stand a very good chance for the playoffs this year, Even with the brutal schedule.

I too was surprised, SoCal, by picking Quinn where we did, but I can only assume either Scheff is gone or McD and company have some very solid reason for the move, and anyway getting a 2 and 4 for two 3's isn't a big scandal, by any means. He obviously wasn't just a BPA pick at that point since we moved up for him.

They obviously weren't just throwing darts at the board here so lets see how this all plays out before condemning this pick as poor value.

McD said they really like his receiving skills even though in college they didn't throw much to the TE but he's a solid blocker too and with he and Graham lined up in the red zone next to Clady and Harris with Hillis and Moreno coming out of the backfield, will provide plenty of headaches for opposing D;s.

Perhaps we could have gotten him later though and that's a fair question I'm sure we'll hear more about from McD and company later but they obviously liked him enough to make the move. Lets see how it pans out.

watermock
04-26-2009, 02:53 AM
Had we played with the same picks we gave up today and been smart we could have landed 3 starters on D...Raji, Orakpo and Jenkins...or any reasonable facsimile thereof.

......

Drek
04-26-2009, 03:08 AM
Had we played with the same picks we gave up today and been smart we could have landed 3 starters on D...Raji, Orakpo and Jenkins...or any reasonable facsimile thereof.

As stupid as some of Shanny's drafts were...this set a new standard.

I'd love to hear the math on how you'd turn our picks into the 9th, 13th, and 14th picks in the draft respectively, or higher since those teams actually wanted the guy you'd have us targeting.

serious hops
04-26-2009, 03:09 AM
BJ Raji is not Vince Wilfork.

He's more like Haloti Ngata, minus some of the mean streak, a lot of the work ethic, and plus some character concerns and off-field baggage.

He's a big risk to blow up in the Packers' faces.


"I just love the guy. He reminds me so much of me. The guy is very talented. He dominates his opponents. Hes the best defensive lineman out there, hands down.
- Vince Wilfork, giving his opinion on Raji


http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view/2009_04_22_Patriots_usually_up_front_about_picks/


LOL

Steve Sewell
04-26-2009, 03:22 AM
I love how everyone here dogs on McD and the players picked before he's coached 1 game and before the players have played 1 game!!

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but things haven't been going all that hot in Dove Valley...

Drek
04-26-2009, 03:25 AM
"I just love the guy. He reminds me so much of me. The guy is very talented. He dominates his opponents. Hes the best defensive lineman out there, hands down.
- Vince Wilfork, giving his opinion on Raji


http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view/2009_04_22_Patriots_usually_up_front_about_picks/


LOL

So when did Vince Wilfork become an NFL GM?

Because more than a few former NFL executives have outright said he isn't a traditional NT.

And he is the best DL in this class. But thats like being the smartest retard on the short bus. Its a **** class and he got a top 10 pay check thanks to it.

extralife
04-26-2009, 03:52 AM
Yeah, heaven forbid you trust a pro bowl player on what he thinks of another guy playing his position.

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 03:54 AM
I don't know if you've noticed or not, but things haven't been going all that hot in Dove Valley...

you're just supposed to be drinking the kool aid. don't think for yourself or question authority. that's not being a fan bro!

Yeah, heaven forbid you trust a pro bowl player on what he thinks of another guy playing his position.

no no no, armchair message board QB's know more about everything than anyone!!! duh!

serious hops
04-26-2009, 04:09 AM
So when did Vince Wilfork become an NFL GM?




He's a NFL player, and as he lives in the Boston area he probably watches BC football. I'd say he's in a better position to comment on who compares to Vince Wilfork than we are, given that he's in a relatively good position to understand Vince Wilfork's game. Enh, call me crazy. . .

TheChamp24
04-26-2009, 04:38 AM
1. We will finish in the bottom half of the league, meaning our pick will be in the top 15. We were lucky as hell to finish 8-8 last year with a fairly mediocre schedule. Now we face a tougher schedule. 5 of our losses last year were by 10+ points, and the Dolphins loss was by 9. Plus, we had a lot of close wins, San Diego, Sains, Bucs, those three combined to win by 6 points. We could have very well been 4-12 last year, throwing in the Falcons game where Roddy White dropped the game winning TD at the end.
2. We got some solid players, I don't think anybody is going to argue against that, but what we gave up is what is concerning to people. I believe Smith isn't going to be worth trading away our 1st round pick. Very few CB's are worth that. You don't win games by having good CB's. You win games by stopping the run and putting pressure on the QB. Neither of those I'm comfortable with.
3. People say we have good LB's, in DJ, Davis, Woodyard, Larsen, etc. And then saying they expect Powell, Thomas, etc. guys to be solid at stuffing the run. What we have are a bunch of average players, most of which wouldn't even see the starting lineup on another team. I would've liked to add depth to the DL and get a 3-4 DE or a NT, and we did neither.

Ratboy
04-26-2009, 05:08 AM
If I could rep your post a dozen times, I would.

McDaniels had a chance to redeem himself to the Broncos community, he totally wet the bed.

I was actually starting to feel the hype of a new team, once again, I end up betrayed and feel we're back tracking.

McDaniels has no clue what he wants.

anthonypacino
04-26-2009, 08:28 AM
The trade for Smith cost us Taylor Mays next year, cause with this team and our schedule we will be lucky to win 5 games next year, welcome to the cellar Bronco fans, this entire draft probably set our franchise back 5 years, we were able to recover faster from bad drafts before but we didn't have quite so many holes as we do now. We reached for nearly everyone we picked up, from what I have understood San Diego would have picked up Moreno if we hadn't.

Hopefully McFail-nals knows how to turn FA RB's into D lineman and LB's better suited for 3-4...didn't we already try that experiment with DJ? I know he will play the WMLB but still...

penguintheory
04-26-2009, 08:39 AM
Wow, SoCal. Shocking. I would have expected you to give the new staff a stellar draft grade.

:rofl:

Drek
04-26-2009, 08:43 AM
He's a NFL player, and as he lives in the Boston area he probably watches BC football. I'd say he's in a better position to comment on who compares to Vince Wilfork than we are, given that he's in a relatively good position to understand Vince Wilfork's game. Enh, call me crazy. . .

Sure Wilfork probably knows NFL talent better than we do. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't know it better than the half dozen or so former front office types I've heard explicitly say Raji isn't a traditional NT.

Hell, Pat Kirwan said it to Raji himself in an interview, to which Raji agreed and said Ron Brace would probably be a better fit for that role.

In summation, Wilfork said he'd be a good player, but in regards to the NT position itself multiple FO types and Raji himself have said he's probably not as good as a early 2nd rounder that leading up to this draft was viewed as a guy getting a big push up from lack of DL talent.

So thats a guy you trade up for and give huge money to in hopes of filling the NT position?

Denver724
04-26-2009, 08:45 AM
Based on Mcdaniels interview, we did not give up our first but the worst of the two whatever that is.

We need to get this clarified.

Orange_Beard
04-26-2009, 08:46 AM
Really, I have no problem with any of the players we picked.

I lost an hour of sleep last night thinking about next years first round pick. I really can not believe we traded this pick for a CB. May be a QB, left tackle, or a lights out pass rusher, not a CB. Not that Smith will not be a fine player. It just makes NO SENSE.

This is going to be at least a top ten pick and more then likely a top 5. This pick was really our franchise QB.

I just can't believe it.

theAPAOps5
04-26-2009, 08:55 AM
Wow, you're serious.

I thought we were friends ???

Oh well ....

Dude I use smilies to show a joke. That said I didn't word my posts that well at all! Not sure what bug got up my ass but what sounded like a funny slam didn't end up that way!

Breaker
04-26-2009, 08:57 AM
I have rarely seen a team do worse maneuvering than Denver did today.

I thought McDaniels was a NE guy....NE guys don't wet their pants and trade their 2 3rd round picks to draft a blocking TE that would have been there in the 3rd round. They don't trade a high 2010 draft pick to draft a corner in the 2nd round.

He still is a NE guy, he just gets a supplementary income from the Broncos to ruin our franchise.

gunns
04-26-2009, 09:04 AM
I absolutely agree with SoCal's first post. I have no problem with Moreno, it's the position at which he was picked. A RB could have been picked up in later rounds, ala Brandon Jacobs, Frank Gore, Terrell Davis. The DL should have been addressed.

I would not have minded next years first round trade had it been the BPA. The fact that McDaniels said in his presser that if it's a player you want and you go get him and we don't care what others think is a true statement. But it could come back to bite you in the ass when people do start thinking negatively about that player based on he's technically a first rounder that should be starting soon and doesn't and you've lost that 1st rounder in a more talented draft. It also tells me how any conversations McDaniels had with Cutler did go.

BroncoInferno
04-26-2009, 09:14 AM
I loved the first two picks. Moreno gives us a versatile back who is as dangerous as a receiver as a runner. He will be huge for Orton/Simms. Mayock considered Ayers the best defender in the draft, and he makes a ton of plays behind the line of scrimmage

Alhponso Smith--Love the player. Not very big, but extremely competitive, great nose for the ball, and a great special teams guy. That said, I never agree with mortgaging a future 1st rounder. I disagree strongly that it will be a top 10 pick, but I still don't like it. I would have felt better about the move if the pick had been Brace. Puzzling that we did not take a 3-4 lineman, but as Drek has stated this a poor draft for the DL. I give the pick an A for the player but a B- overall for giving up the #1.

The safety pick I'm not crazy about, but the Smith and McBath picks have a clear logic: turnovers and special teams. We forced a pitiful 12 last season, and these two have a nose for the ball. They are also said to be great special teamers. That said, this particular pick I am not crazy about. Don't hate it, but don't love it.

Hate that Quinn pick. That said, I see the logic. You can put Graham and Quinn on the field together in short yardage or red zone situations and it's like two extra offensive lineman being on the field. But the guy has 12 career grabs and it is a luxury pick. C- for the pick because I can see the logic behind it, but there were obviously greater needs.

So:

Moreno--A
Ayers--A
Smith--B-
McBath--C
Quinn--C-

Overall--B

One thing about all these picks: they are guys who figure to contribute immediately, at least on special teams. That, plus trading the future #1, and you can see that McDaniels plans to win NOW.

DrFate
04-26-2009, 09:27 AM
I disagree strongly that it will be a top 10 pick

Exactly right. More likely a top 5 pick...

Hulamau
04-26-2009, 09:27 AM
I loved the first two picks. Moreno gives us a versatile back who is as dangerous as a receiver as a runner. He will be huge for Orton/Simms. Mayock considered Ayers the best defender in the draft, and he makes a ton of plays behind the line of scrimmage

Alhponso Smith--Love the player. Not very big, but extremely competitive, great nose for the ball, and a great special teams guy. That said, I never agree with mortgaging a future 1st rounder. I disagree strongly that it will be a top 10 pick, but I still don't like it. I would have felt better about the move if the pick had been Brace. Puzzling that we did not take a 3-4 lineman, but as Drek has stated this a poor draft for the DL. I give the pick an A for the player but a B- overall for giving up the #1.

The safety pick I'm not crazy about, but the Smith and McBath picks have a clear logic: turnovers and special teams. We forced a pitiful 12 last season, and these two have a nose for the ball. They are also said to be great special teamers. That said, this particular pick I am not crazy about. Don't hate it, but don't love it.

Hate that Quinn pick. That said, I see the logic. You can put Graham and Quinn on the field together in short yardage or red zone situations and it's like two extra offensive lineman being on the field. But the guy has 12 career grabs and it is a luxury pick. C- for the pick because I can see the logic behind it, but there were obviously greater needs.

So:

Moreno--A
Ayers--A
Smith--B-
McBath--C
Quinn--C-

Overall--B

One thing about all these picks: they are guys who figure to contribute immediately, at least on special teams. That, plus trading the future #1, and you can see that McDaniels plans to win NOW.

Good points BI and on the Quinn pick the more I look at it the more I see he was likely going to be gone in the early to mid thrid and they really wanted him. It only cost us about 20 points to swing the deal with Pittsburg so not a big loss.

It clear they have focused most of the higher picks on skill guys and plan on beefing up the interior DL with a couple middle to lower rounders and hope that Thomas, Powell, Peterson, Reid and the versatile Ayers on down s when he slides over will be fine for this year along with Fields as a half way decent NT.

In the long run I think we get more back for out pick out of Smith than Brace even though Brace may have filled a more immediate need.

But you are right the main focus of everyone picked so far is that they call all play a full three downs and can all contribute right away, at least on ST.

Sure if Raji had been there they would have gone for him but I'm not so sure they would have taken Jackson over Ayers. Maybe but not definitely and I think the Cheif's are paying dearly for a very good DE that isn't much of a pass rusher.

tsiguy96
04-26-2009, 09:29 AM
I loved the first two picks. Moreno gives us a versatile back who is as dangerous as a receiver as a runner. He will be huge for Orton/Simms. Mayock considered Ayers the best defender in the draft, and he makes a ton of plays behind the line of scrimmage

Alhponso Smith--Love the player. Not very big, but extremely competitive, great nose for the ball, and a great special teams guy. That said, I never agree with mortgaging a future 1st rounder. I disagree strongly that it will be a top 10 pick, but I still don't like it. I would have felt better about the move if the pick had been Brace. Puzzling that we did not take a 3-4 lineman, but as Drek has stated this a poor draft for the DL. I give the pick an A for the player but a B- overall for giving up the #1.

The safety pick I'm not crazy about, but the Smith and McBath picks have a clear logic: turnovers and special teams. We forced a pitiful 12 last season, and these two have a nose for the ball. They are also said to be great special teamers. That said, this particular pick I am not crazy about. Don't hate it, but don't love it.

Hate that Quinn pick. That said, I see the logic. You can put Graham and Quinn on the field together in short yardage or red zone situations and it's like two extra offensive lineman being on the field. But the guy has 12 career grabs and it is a luxury pick. C- for the pick because I can see the logic behind it, but there were obviously greater needs.

So:

Moreno--A
Ayers--A
Smith--B-
McBath--C
Quinn--C-

Overall--B

One thing about all these picks: they are guys who figure to contribute immediately, at least on special teams. That, plus trading the future #1, and you can see that McDaniels plans to win NOW.


i like the mcbath pick better then C, lot of upside. quinn however, i agree we have much greater needs. but it is nice having arguably two of the best blocking TEs in hte game now...

gunns
04-26-2009, 09:44 AM
Frankly, I'm shocked. I guess when I heard McD was coming in I had visions of the Patriot's D. A squad of killer linebackers. Seymour. Wilfork. Returning to the days of the Orange Crush. I expected this draft to be all D line and LBs. Finally, after all these years of Shanahan's total neglect of defense, we would be turning the page. To say I'm disappointed is not strong enough. This day was pathetic.

My vision with McDaniels is that he would continue with the offense as primary focus just as Shanahan did. Everyone said that the head coach has to focus on it all but if that coach was previously focused on the offense or defense he's going to think that's the end all for a team and I do believe McDaniels isn't far removed from Shanahan when it comes to D. And until we build that D up big time, we aren't going anywhere.

TotallyScrewed
04-26-2009, 09:50 AM
i agree completely. how people can come in here and b**** and moan for hours on end about how bad hte team is gonna be is beyond me. how can that be entertaining, fun, or even doable? why would you waste youre time doing that when you can come in and realize that none of us are GMs, none of us know the plans for the team, none of us even work for football teams much less NFL teams. no one here has ever or will ever build a professional football team or be in the NFL draft, the fact that people here get stuck so much on the notion that "if they dont draft this guy or this guy this draft is a failure" is absolutely ridiculous. winning teams dont draft like that, they take BPA that fit the scheme and style of play, thats exactly what mcdaniels did, and if he saw a player he wanted when the draft board was running thin he made a move to make sure he got them.


This team has just shown its cards...

They are going to try to become a running team on first, second and third down. Throw away the high-powered offense...err QB and settle for a "just don't screw up too badly QB and run...run...run.

If you can run, run and run some more, you'll take the heat off the defense.

So draft the best RB available. Draft a good blocking TE to go with your already good, if not great O-line, and run, run and run some more.

If it doesn't work...

listopencil
04-26-2009, 10:08 AM
Frankly, I'm shocked. I guess when I heard McD was coming in I had visions of the Patriot's D. A squad of killer linebackers. Seymour. Wilfork. Returning to the days of the Orange Crush. I expected this draft to be all D line and LBs. Finally, after all these years of Shanahan's total neglect of defense, we would be turning the page. To say I'm disappointed is not strong enough. This day was pathetic.

Sums it up perfectly.

Dagmar
04-26-2009, 10:13 AM
Really, I have no problem with any of the players we picked.

I lost an hour of sleep last night thinking about next years first round pick. I really can not believe we traded this pick for a CB. May be a QB, left tackle, or a lights out pass rusher, not a CB. Not that Smith will not be a fine player. It just makes NO SENSE.

This is going to be at least a top ten pick and more then likely a top 5. This pick was really our franchise QB.

I just can't believe it.

You're joking right?

The Bears pick in the top 5?

gunns
04-26-2009, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by tsiguy96
i agree completely. how people can come in here and b**** and moan for hours on end about how bad hte team is gonna be is beyond me. how can that be entertaining, fun, or even doable? why would you waste youre time doing that when you can come in and realize that none of us are GMs, none of us know the plans for the team, none of us even work for football teams much less NFL teams. no one here has ever or will ever build a professional football team or be in the NFL draft, the fact that people here get stuck so much on the notion that "if they dont draft this guy or this guy this draft is a failure" is absolutely ridiculous. winning teams dont draft like that, they take BPA that fit the scheme and style of play, thats exactly what mcdaniels did, and if he saw a player he wanted when the draft board was running thin he made a move to make sure he got them.

It isn't a matter of drafting this guy or that guy...it's a matter of taking care of your teams achille heal....and as you said drafting the BPA. Were they? None of us knows, but we do have an opinion. Now you are right, none of us do this for a living but it's called an opinion and 99.9% of the posts on the OrangeMane is opinion. I've read yours before, on other topics, I've also seen you bitch and moan about stuff you are not professionally adept to know that much about or exactly what is happening or going to happen. So get off your soapbox.

DaFace
04-26-2009, 10:18 AM
You're joking right?

The Bears pick in the top 5?

The trade was for the Broncos' pick.

tsiguy96
04-26-2009, 10:37 AM
It isn't a matter of drafting this guy or that guy...it's a matter of taking care of your teams achille heal....and as you said drafting the BPA. Were they? None of us knows, but we do have an opinion. Now you are right, none of us do this for a living but it's called an opinion and 99.9% of the posts on the OrangeMane is opinion. I've read yours before, on other topics, I've also seen you b**** and moan about stuff you are not professionally adept to know that much about or exactly what is happening or going to happen. So get off your soapbox.

all of my "opinion" posts here are telling stupid ass people to realize they are not professionals, calling players busts before they ever play a snap in the NFL are ****ing ridiculous, as is thinking that we can grade how this draft turns out today and not a few years down the road, and thinking this team is a sinking ship in APRIL before we even got on hte damn field.

no team ever won a championship in april, he is filling holes with BPA. say you dont like the pick or prefer someone else, but to say mcdaniels is destroying this team because hes not picking the players that YOU like is absolutely stupid.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 10:38 AM
The trade for Smith cost us Taylor Mays next year...

Or better ... that pick could potentially be Top 5.




(Good to see ya, Tone Capone :thumbs:)

Bob's your Information Minister
04-26-2009, 10:55 AM
SoCal destroys McDaniels.

So it shall be written, so it shall be done.

anthonypacino
04-26-2009, 10:55 AM
Or better ... that pick could potentially be Top 5.




(Good to see ya, Tone Capone :thumbs:)

I agree totally...I liked Smith before we picked him but not enough to warrant that trade. Did he see any tape on the players that are here now? How well our 4-3 backers played? If they sucked it up in a scheme they knew and supposedly fit into, then how does he think they will be in a 3-4? He signs all these RB's clearly it looks like it will be a RBBC next year much like the Pats have had since his time there, why burn your first pick on a RB?

Oh yeah, top 5 next year for sure, at least Seattle will get their new QB next year...Tebow?? McCoy??


(Good to see you too buddy, been awhile hasn't it?)

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 10:57 AM
Here's who we SHOULD HAVE drafted with those 2nd round picks ........

#37 - Ron Brace NT (Alphonso Smith) Bell and JMFW are decent backups - but we have no real NTs
#48 - Rashad Johnson FS (Darcel McBath) - nitpicking maybe, but Rashad is better. Perfect ballhawking FS
#64 - Jarron Gilbert DE (Richard Quinn TE) - Don't need TE, need 3-4 DE, and Gilbert has massive upside

There you go. Fixed.

These three guys in Round 2 would've made the luxury of Knowshon fine and dandy ... these three guys in Round 2 wouldda had me praising this draft from the mountaintops.

Oh well ... we'll see.

Dagmar
04-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Here's who we SHOULD HAVE drafted with those 2nd round picks ........

#37 - Ron Brace NT (Alphonso Smith) Bell and JMFW are decent backups - but we have no real NTs
#48 - Rashad Johnson FS (Darcel McBath) - nitpicking maybe, but Rashad is better. Perfect ballhawking FS
#64 - Jarron Gilbert DE (Richard Quinn TE) - Don't need TE, need 3-4 DE, and Gilbert has massive upside

There you go. Fixed.

These three guys in Round 2 would've made the luxury of Knowshon fine and dandy ... these three guys in Round 2 wouldda had me praising this draft from the mountaintops.

Oh well ... we'll see.

Well done. Why don't you send the Broncos your resume? I am suuuuuuuuuuure they are desperate for a man of your football experience.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 11:07 AM
Well done. Why don't you send the Broncos your resume? I am suuuuuuuuuuure they are desperate for a man of your football experience.

Are you mocking me?

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 11:09 AM
Orton is a bum. He's a below average QB.

55.3 career completion percentage, 58.5 is his career high in completion percentage!

5.8 career yards/attempt 3 more career TDs than INT

All true, but it won't matter.

I'm telling you guys, Chris Simms will will this competition.

Mark my words.

gyldenlove
04-26-2009, 11:13 AM
21 wins. 12 losses. As a starter.


:Broncos:

Why even have a defense when all you need is a QB to win? From now on we should spend every single draft pick on QBs, one of them is bound to be a winner.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-26-2009, 11:20 AM
All true, but it won't matter.

I'm telling you guys, Chris Simms will will this competition.

Mark my words.

Wow.

Who will beat out Simms next year?

Odysseus
04-26-2009, 01:39 PM
If I could rep your post a dozen times, I would.

McDaniels had a chance to redeem himself to the Broncos community, he totally wet the bed.

I was actually starting to feel the hype of a new team, once again, I end up betrayed and feel we're back tracking.

McDaniels has no clue what he wants.

I think McDaniels had few choices. He missed key opportunities, picked over what's left rather than determined what he wanted, and overall missed

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 03:39 PM
This team has just shown its cards...

They are going to try to become a running team on first, second and third down. Throw away the high-powered offense...err QB and settle for a "just don't screw up too badly QB and run...run...run.

If you can run, run and run some more, you'll take the heat off the defense.

So draft the best RB available. Draft a good blocking TE to go with your already good, if not great O-line, and run, run and run some more.

If it doesn't work...

Awesome. Maybe we can get Marty to come over and be assisant head coach since we're ripping off his game plan.

Man, sounds exciting, and really worked for Cleveland and San Diego.

gunns
04-26-2009, 03:41 PM
all of my "opinion" posts here are telling stupid ass people to realize they are not professionals, calling players busts before they ever play a snap in the NFL are ****ing ridiculous, as is thinking that we can grade how this draft turns out today and not a few years down the road, and thinking this team is a sinking ship in APRIL before we even got on hte damn field.

no team ever won a championship in april, he is filling holes with BPA. say you dont like the pick or prefer someone else, but to say mcdaniels is destroying this team because hes not picking the players that YOU like is absolutely stupid.

I wasn't referring to your "opinions" on this thread, I was referring to your posting in general. I've seen you post things about possible trades, etc., that you call stupid (when you aren't calling everyone else stupid for what they post). How can you do that if you aren't one of the scouts, a professional?

I'm not one that is saying he is destroying the team but I do not agree with some of the moves McDaniels has made. I may be wrong, just like you, just like McDaniels, just like SoCal. No one knows if it's stupid or not...yet. See what I mean? Some of the people on this board are very knowledgable and I respect their opinion even if I don't agree with it. Look at the "professionals". They often get it wrong too.

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 03:42 PM
Well done. Why don't you send the Broncos your resume? I am suuuuuuuuuuure they are desperate for a man of your football experience.

I love how you guys like to play that card when someone has a different view than you. And then sit there and look back on the FO moves and act like that's exactly what you would've done. God knows while your still here on a message board if you have that kind of ability right?

Do you guys ever like you know, think for yourselves? Foster your own opinions? Guess not.

Atwater His Ass
04-26-2009, 03:45 PM
I wasn't referring to your "opinions" on this thread, I was referring to your posting in general. I've seen you post things about possible trades, etc., that you call stupid (when you aren't calling everyone else stupid for what they post). How can you do that if you aren't one of the scouts, a professional?

I'm not one that is saying he is destroying the team but I do not agree with some of the moves McDaniels has made. I may be wrong, just like you, just like McDaniels, just like SoCal. No one knows if it's stupid or not...yet. See what I mean? Some of the people on this board are very knowledgable and I respect their opinion even if I don't agree with it. Look at the "professionals". They often get it wrong too.

You didn't get the memo? You aren't allowed to have an opinion different than that of McD on this board w/o getting torn down and called not a real fan. You can't possibly be a fan of the Denver Broncos unless you blindly follow every move they make and act like it's the best thing they could have done.

The amount of time spent attempting to justify the stupid **** that McD has done since he got here is amazing. He hasn't done anything right since he got here outside of cutting some defensive trash we had laying around. Whoopdie doo.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 03:58 PM
The point that really struck me was that, like a classic, prototypical child, McD seems to have trouble delaying gratification. He wants what he wants NOW! Delaying gratification is a cardinal marker of maturity in the human species ... and the patience to do so marks a milestone in all of us (most all of us) as we pass from adolescence and adulthood.

Here, we have a very young coach who trades up ...

trades up ...

trades up ...

trades up ...

trades up ...

Even trades away a probably Top 10 - maybe Top 5 pick.

Think about how freaking rare it is we have a Top 5 pick!

Bob's your Information Minister
04-26-2009, 05:18 PM
Delaying gratification is a cardinal marker of maturity in the human species

I must be the most mature human alive...

SoCalBronco
04-26-2009, 05:44 PM
I must be the most mature human alive...

Hahaha.

Rep.

Good stuff, Bob.

El Minion
04-26-2009, 05:54 PM
21 wins. 12 losses. As a starter.


:Broncos:


Orton so impressed the Chicago FO that after leading the bears to a playoff loss they replace him with Grossman.

BTW, Orton and Grossman are fungible. There W-L records, QB rating and other stats are practically the same in the same system and player personnel. Yet how many would be singing the praises if Grossman was our QB instead of Orton. Grossman has a winning playoff record, unlike Orton, and led his team to the SB. So by some peoples measure Grossman>Orton>Cutler.

Popps
04-26-2009, 06:51 PM
You didn't get the memo? You aren't allowed to have an opinion different than that of McD on this board w/o getting torn down and called not a real fan. .

Yea, it must be real rough for you today. There's hardly anyone else complaining. You're like a lone voice in a forest.

::)

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 08:00 PM
The amount of question marks piling on top of McD is getting pretty weighty.

This guy is making Bush's second term look like an exercise in brilliance.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 08:15 PM
I must be the most mature human alive...

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear:

Delaying gratification VOLUNTARILY is a cardinal marker of prefrontal cortex maturity in the human species, and thus adolescence to adulthood. When they talk about teenage brains being "wired differently," this is what they mean. ;D

Having gratification delayed by circumstances outside your control (which I gather is your meaning), is not maturity ... it's just bad luck :(

Rohirrim
04-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I'm guessing as a Chefs fan, delayed gratification is a way of life.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 08:24 PM
The amount of question marks piling on top of McD is getting pretty weighty.

I'm gonna weigh in that MAYBE the Alphonso Smith pick is a good one. I just read where had he been 3 inches taller, he would have been a Top 10 pick.

If he actually plays like a Top 10 pick, like a Rogers-Cromartie for example, this was a good move.

Plus, have you thought that McD is probably confident the Broncos will go at least .500? If he had traded the Bears pick, he might look like he's lacking confidence in his 2009 team ... that he wanted to keep our pick because he thinks we'll suck. Or maybe the Seahawks decided we would have a worse record than the Bears, and they demanded our pick?

Think about these permutations - this is a very interesting factor: Who decided which #1 to trade? Nobody KNOWS where either pick will land, so the only variable is: Which team will do you guess will do better in 2009 ... Broncos or Bears?

Rohirrim
04-26-2009, 08:25 PM
I'm gonna weigh in that MAYBE the Alphonso Smith pick is a good one. I just read where had he been 3 inches taller, he would have been a Top 10 pick.

If he actually plays like a Top 10 pick, like a Rogers-Cromartie for example, this was a good move.

Plus, have you thought that McD is probably confident the Broncos will go at least .500? If he had traded the Bears pick, he might look like he's lacking confidence in his 2009 team ... that he wanted to keep our pick because he thinks we'll suck. Or maybe the Seahawks decided we would have a worse record than the Bears, and they demanded our pick?

Think about these permutations - this is a very interesting factor: Who decided which #1 to trade? Nobody KNOWS where either pick will land, so the only variable is: Which team will do you guess will do better in 2009 ... Broncos or Bears?

If I could **** gold, I'd be rich. Ha!

epicSocialism4tw
04-26-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm gonna weigh in that MAYBE the Alphonso Smith pick is a good one. I just read where had he been 3 inches taller, he would have been a Top 10 pick.

If he actually plays like a Top 10 pick, like a Rogers-Cromartie for example, this was a good move.

Plus, have you thought that McD is probably confident the Broncos will go at least .500? If he had traded the Bears pick, he might look like he's lacking confidence in his 2009 team ... that he wanted to keep our pick because he thinks we'll suck. Or maybe the Seahawks decided we would have a worse record than the Bears, and they demanded our pick?

Think about these permutations - this is a very interesting factor: Who decided which #1 to trade? Nobody KNOWS where either pick will land, so the only variable is: Which team will do you guess will do better in 2009 ... Broncos or Bears?


We'll be fortunate if Smith is as good as Darrent Williams. Would you have given up a potential top-15 pick for D-Will? That is best-case scenario, mind you.

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 08:29 PM
I must be the most mature human alive...

I was a psych major in college, and one of the tests used to measure voluntary delaying of gratification was, take kids of different ages - 6, 8, 10, 12: Show them one candy bar and say: "You can have this candy bar right now - OR - you can have three candy bars in 30 minutes."

Well Bob, which is it gonna be: One now ... or three later?

Bronx33
04-26-2009, 08:31 PM
I was a psych major in college, and one of the tests used to measure voluntary delaying of gratification was, take kids of different ages - 6, 8, 10, 12, etc., and then, show them one Donut and say: "You can have this Donut right now, OR, you can have three Donuts in 30 minutes."

Well Bob, which is it gonna be: One now ... or three later?


Fixed

DrFate
04-26-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm gonna weigh in that MAYBE the Alphonso Smith pick is a good one. I just read where had he been 3 inches taller, he would have been a Top 10 pick.

And if Granny Fate had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Unless Smith is growing 3+ inches between now and opening day, where he 'might' have been drafted 'if' he were a physically different person is truly irrelevant.

This kid better be Darrell Green if he cost a top 10 pick. If not - this is an EPIC FAIL. What was the motivation for constantly throwing next year's picks at this year's draft when everyone feels next year's draft class is stronger?

BroncoBuff
04-26-2009, 08:32 PM
Fixed

LOL ... my mistake, of course it's DONUTS.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-27-2009, 01:25 AM
I was a psych major in college, and one of the tests used to measure voluntary delaying of gratification was, take kids of different ages - 6, 8, 10, 12: Show them one candy bar and say: "You can have this candy bar right now - OR - you can have three candy bars in 30 minutes."

Well Bob, which is it gonna be: One now ... or three later?

None. I don't eat candy bars.

I delay the gratification of candy bars in order to have a great body, so I can NOT delay the gratification of sex any further.