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View Full Version : Denver shopping DE's Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder


SoDak Bronco
04-22-2009, 09:53 AM
Sources: Chiefs Trying To Trade Down
The Kansas City Chiefs are actively trying to trade the third overall pick in this weekendís draft, a league source close to the situation has just informed me.

Whether or not there will be any takers remains to be seen. This news comes just one day after our own Matt Bowen reported that the St. Louis Rams are trying to trade the second overall selection in this yearís draft.

In addition, Iíve also learned that the Denver Broncos are shopping defensive ends Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.

Moss, a second year veteran out of the University of Florida, has only started 1 game in the past two seasons. In addition, Moss only amassed 12 tackles in 2008, according to NFL.com.

Crowder, a second year vet out of the University of Texas, only appeared in 19 total games for the Broncos since being drafted.

More on these stories as they develop.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/04/sources-chiefs-trying-to-trade-down/

SoDak Bronco
04-22-2009, 09:55 AM
Bust and Bust

tsiguy96
04-22-2009, 09:55 AM
rotoworld said the chiefs will take a small return for #3, if this team feels they can get a diffference maker, we may be able to move up for next to nothing...though i doubt it since its a rival

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 09:56 AM
now we're getting somewhere...

SonOfLe-loLang
04-22-2009, 09:57 AM
Good, if we can get anything for either of these guys, i'd be impressed.

manchambo
04-22-2009, 09:59 AM
What is the point of shopping those two? We will get nothing of any value for them. The odds are better that one of them will click in the new system and actually prove to be of some use than that we will trade them for anything helpful.

Ambiguous
04-22-2009, 10:00 AM
Bust and Bust

Agreed...

What can we get for these guys? I'm hoping for AT LEAST a $20 Starbucks card. McDaniels will listen to any offer that may make the team better though.

Dudeskey
04-22-2009, 10:00 AM
Good, if we can get anything for either of these guys, i'd be impressed.

conditional 2nd day picks @ best...ô

bronco militia
04-22-2009, 10:01 AM
if the broncos were smart they'd wait unitl shanny gets back in the league next year and then have a fire sale with his old players

Mogulseeker
04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
Crowder might still be worth holding on for a year, but I doubt we'd get anything fo Moss. Probably a 5th or 6th.

broncofan2438
04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
Yea, I dont see any team really picking up the phone and making some great deal. Even with the 3rd overall pic, what is out there that we would want at 3?

dbfan21
04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
I guess McD didn't like what he saw during the mini-camp. This is a clear indicator we're going d-line and OLB early and often.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
now we're getting somewhere...

Huh. Werent we discussing this topic recently?

Man, i am tired of being right.

NFLBRONCO
04-22-2009, 10:03 AM
smokescreen sorry I couldn't resist :).

NFLBRONCO
04-22-2009, 10:04 AM
Gee another Texas pro bust its happens all the time.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 10:04 AM
Yea, I dont see any team really picking up the phone and making some great deal. Even with the 3rd overall pic, what is out there that we would want at 3?

http://footballnationblogs.com/files/2009/03/aaron-curry.jpg

vancejohnson82
04-22-2009, 10:05 AM
we should trade Jarvis Moss for Tim Crowder...

wait a minute..

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 10:05 AM
Both those guys and a third rounder for Peppers....

Los Broncos
04-22-2009, 10:06 AM
Good to hear, if we can get anything for those 2 would be good.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:06 AM
Huh. Werent we discussing this topic recently?

Man, i am tired of being right.

yes we were, and i agreed with you whole-heartedly...

hey, when you're right you're right...

lex
04-22-2009, 10:07 AM
Agreed...

What can we get for these guys? I'm hoping for AT LEAST a $20 Starbucks card. McDaniels will listen to any offer that may make the team better though.


LOL. Yeah, and unfortunately when he "takes care of it" it doesnt turn out good.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:07 AM
Both those guys and a third rounder for Peppers....

lol...yea right...

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:08 AM
LOL. Yeah, and unfortunately when he "takes care of it" it doesnt turn out good.

two 1st rounders, a third and a player isn't good?...

lex
04-22-2009, 10:08 AM
Tampa seems like it makes the most sense since thats where Bates is.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:10 AM
Tampa seems like it makes the most sense since thats where Bates is.

it's only fitting he should take those bums...

but he won't...

tsiguy96
04-22-2009, 10:13 AM
i could see us getting something for moss. hes essentially had 1 season to play in a 4-3 D, we could get a 4th for him. tim crowder had a TD too, and looked good his rookie season...

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:16 AM
i could see us getting something for moss.

true...we could prolly get a pack of Now & Laters and a pair of Jodeci tickets...

lex
04-22-2009, 10:17 AM
it's only fitting he should take those bums...

but he won't...
Why not? He saw value in them. And the system we ran was not the one he wanted to run (which is why he's not here). If they fit his scheme, he should consider taking them. I cant believe we chose Slowik over Bates...and to think Champ fully endorsed Slowik. Shameful.

Mogulseeker
04-22-2009, 10:17 AM
I guess McD didn't like what he saw during the mini-camp. This is a clear indicator we're going d-line and OLB early and often.

I think Doom is going to be a soild starter at OLB.

rugbythug
04-22-2009, 10:19 AM
Well this makes my thread about not taking an OLB seem a touch hasty.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:20 AM
Why not? He saw value in them. And the system we ran was not the one he wanted to run (which is why he's not here). If they fit his scheme, he should consider taking them. I cant believe we chose Slowik over Bates...and to think Champ fully endorsed Slowik. Shameful.

hey i hope you're right...but i don't see it...

those two can't possibly carry more value than a 5th or 6th round pick (which at this point i'd happily take)...

living in Tampa, i can tell you that the Bucs are looking for D-line help, so maybe you're on to something...

but i just can't imagine Bates having seen them 1st hand, would want anything to do with them...

DrFate
04-22-2009, 10:22 AM
Bust and Bust

Wasn't there JUST a thread about how 'set' this team was at LB? And these two guys were solid players?

:)

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 10:24 AM
Why not? He saw value in them. And the system we ran was not the one he wanted to run (which is why he's not here). If they fit his scheme, he should consider taking them. I cant believe we chose Slowik over Bates...and to think Champ fully endorsed Slowik. Shameful.

Here is a good point about that. Slowik is a very good secondary coach and great with the players. However, he has never been a good DC anywhere. Some guys can not resist the ambition to be more and get paid more, despite being awful at a higher level.

Champ does not really have the right perspective to endorse a DC, but he knew Slowik could do well with a secondary and worked well with the players. I do not blame Champ, I blame the people who listened to him ;D

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 10:25 AM
As far as these 2 being shopped, welcome to the effects of never embracing a defensive scheme and committing to it. Consequences suck!

SouthStndJunkie
04-22-2009, 10:26 AM
Well, we might be able to get a bag of chips for Jarvis Moss.

Tim Crowder, on the other hand, might fetch a bag of pubic hairs.

tsiguy96
04-22-2009, 10:28 AM
Well, we might be able to get a bag of chips for Jarvis Moss.

Tim Crowder, on the other hand, might fetch a bag of pubic hairs.

this post was so unique and funny to this thread. i recommend you do another one.

SoDak Bronco
04-22-2009, 10:29 AM
Wasn't there JUST a thread about how 'set' this team was at LB? And these two guys were solid players?

:)

That wasn't my sentiments or many others who watched these two play in the past few seasons. I hoped we would see them out 1 more season to see if they can provide a spark, but McD must think they don't fit his scheme or else he wouldn't be bailing on them.

SoDak Bronco
04-22-2009, 10:30 AM
Where do you find a bag of pubic hairs SSJ? lol

supermanhr9
04-22-2009, 10:31 AM
that would be sweet if we picked up curry!!!

socalorado
04-22-2009, 10:32 AM
Well, we might be able to get a bag of chips for Jarvis Moss.

Tim Crowder, on the other hand, might fetch a bag of pubic hairs.

Whos pubic hairs!!?!? Ray Lewis' pubic hairs!?!?
MCD could pass them around and have the defensive unit eat one of them each, giving all of them super powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

montrose
04-22-2009, 10:32 AM
Reading this, I had to chuckle that another team making a move for either of these guys would seem very Shanahan-esque.

TheDave
04-22-2009, 10:32 AM
Might as well cut them... Barring a miracle i can't see anyone giving us anything for them.

Man-Goblin
04-22-2009, 10:33 AM
How are Moss and Crowder ever going to trust McDaniels again?

SouthStndJunkie
04-22-2009, 10:33 AM
this post was so unique and funny to this thread. i recommend you do another one.

I wish the Mane would trade you to another forum.

Rohirrim
04-22-2009, 10:34 AM
if the broncos were smart they'd wait unitl shanny gets back in the league next year and then have a fire sale with his old players

Hilarious!

Rohirrim
04-22-2009, 10:35 AM
Where do you find a bag of pubic hairs SSJ? lol

A man should have a hobby. ;)

lex
04-22-2009, 10:35 AM
hey i hope you're right...but i don't see it...

those two can't possibly carry more value than a 5th or 6th round pick (which at this point i'd happily take)...

living in Tampa, i can tell you that the Bucs are looking for D-line help, so maybe you're on to something...

but i just can't imagine Bates having seen them 1st hand, would want anything to do with them...

Aside from not fitting what Slowik did, has Jarvis Moss really changed? Id venture to say not really. If anything, there should be less of a learning curve with Moss, if you think he fits your system. Same with Crowder. So then, while we may not value Moss and Crowder because they didnt fit in Slowik's "scheme", that doesnt mean other DCs wont find utility for them. But having said that, even if Bates highly values Moss, that doesnt mean they want to give up more than they need to. I just hope if we trade them, its not for a 5th or a 6th...even if its both for a 3rd.

SouthStndJunkie
04-22-2009, 10:36 AM
Where do you find a bag of pubic hairs SSJ? lol

Give me a bag and some scissors.

Mogulseeker
04-22-2009, 10:37 AM
that would be sweet if we picked up curry!!!

Curry would be a beast in the middle, but there is no chance we get him. If we did, we better beef up our d-line (replace EVERY starter)...

Why not bring in Peppers... and draft Raji... to play LDE, and trade next years first for Haynesworth... kidding, obviously.

bronco militia
04-22-2009, 10:40 AM
http://radprofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_36.gif

cabronco
04-22-2009, 10:53 AM
Let the bidding wars begin !!

Step up Giants, we've done you right before.

Redskins always open to invitiations.

Detroit, what a tremendous upgrade these guys would be for you !

Anybody? These are young prospects here !

Ok, Im Done..

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 10:55 AM
the deal...










is done...

TonyR
04-22-2009, 11:04 AM
I'm thinking that when McD was hired he started watching game tapes of our epic failure of a defense and wondered if we had any young talent to bring along this year. He took one look at Moss and Crowder, asked who drafted them, and promptly showed the Goodmans the door.

ohiobronco2
04-22-2009, 11:12 AM
http://radprofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_36.gif

Hilarious! LOL

ohiobronco2
04-22-2009, 11:13 AM
I never endorsed Moss from the start. Sadly we moved up for his fragile a** and he would have most likely still been there at our original spot. Was a brilliant move.

oubronco
04-22-2009, 11:33 AM
http://footballnationblogs.com/files/2009/03/aaron-curry.jpg

agreed

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm thinking that when McD was hired he started watching game tapes of our epic failure of a defense and wondered if we had any young talent to bring along this year. He took one look at Moss and Crowder, asked who drafted them, and promptly showed the Goodmans the door.

Oh good lord ... that is so silly T ...

In the first place, Goodman didn't have the juice to trade up in the first round, that was undoubtedly Mike. And you gotta believe Mike was making at least the first round picks himself.

Goodman's genius was later round players like Marshall, Kuper, Hixon, Dumervil, Thomas, Harris, Larsen, Hillis, Powell, Barrett ... and CFAs like Selvin Young, Tyler Polumbus and Wesley Woodyard.

I'll give Mike credit for Cutler and Clady, but you gotta drop Jarvis's corpse on his doorstep too.

TonyR
04-22-2009, 12:01 PM
Oh good lord ... that is so silly T ...


Yes, I was going for silly.

ColoradoDarin
04-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder for the chief's #3 overall pick? win-win-win!

chrisp
04-22-2009, 12:36 PM
This rumour (and lets not forget that it is only that at this stage...) doesn't speak well for either player, but lets face it, they were drafted to be 4-3 ends, so they could just be victims of the scheme change rather than busts per se....

However, from the pre-draft coverage I've been seeing lately its looking very much like there's a good chance the genuine 1st-round 3-4 D-line talent will all be gone by the time we pick, so if we go for the best defensive player available we will more likely end up with an OLB type like Everette brown or similar. If we don't, there's a chance we could reach on 2nd or 3rd round D-line talent with our 1st round picks.

So if you think that's what you're going to end up with, it does make those guys even more expendable, however it could also mean that they are looking to get some ammunition to move up in the draft. We could be looking to move up by trading with a 4-3 team short of d-ends.......

As usual though, I don't think you should read too much into this: if they get something for these guys they'll trade them, if not they get a little more time in the scheme to see if they can handle it before the cuts come: there is a transition from 4-3 end to OLB, and not getting the hang of that in one mini-camp does not necesarily mean you are a bust.

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 01:00 PM
Yes, I was going for silly.

Oh sorry ... ::)

azbroncfan
04-22-2009, 01:03 PM
I would be happy for a 2 day pick for both of them. Couple of bums that would be good to see playing somewhere else or I should say standing on the sidelines somewhere else.

Br0nc0Buster
04-22-2009, 01:38 PM
good

Both freaking suck

Javris's suckage pisses me off though, cuz we actually traded up for him

man the 07 class is looking like an epic fail with the exception of Harris

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 02:13 PM
Keep in mind ... www.NationalFootballPost.com (http://www.NationalFootballPost.com) has been known to circulate some pretty dumb theories:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4631/94784941.jpg

lex
04-22-2009, 02:14 PM
I never endorsed Moss from the start. Sadly we moved up for his fragile a** and he would have most likely still been there at our original spot. Was a brilliant move.

I seem to remember hearing that the Giants were going to take him.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 02:17 PM
I seem to remember hearing that the Giants were going to take him.

I also seem to remember you saying that DEN should have taken his teammate FS Reggie Nelson that year instead.
Man, now that would have been a smart move.

uplink
04-22-2009, 02:23 PM
Wonder if this will make the broncos weary to pull the trigger on another early round DE this weekend?

lex
04-22-2009, 02:26 PM
I also seem to remember you saying that DEN should have taken his teammate FS Reggie Nelson that year instead.
Man, now that would have been a smart move.


I wanted Reggie Nelson more than Moss but Jax liked him and if Jax sensed/knew we were trading up for Nelson, its unlikely they would have traded with us...at least thats what has been commonly speculated. I dont know to what degree teams get a level of assurance from the team theyre trading with though.

Florida_Bronco
04-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Keep in mind ... www.NationalFootballPost.com (http://www.NationalFootballPost.com) has been known to circulate some pretty dumb theories:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4631/94784941.jpg

Exactly. What are the chances that two promising and extremely gifted players are going to dumped by their new coach when that same new coach is aware how horrible their coaching was.

Unless we get some good value, Moss and Crowder should be here well into training camp.

gyldenlove
04-22-2009, 02:58 PM
Good, if we can get anything for either of these guys, i'd be impressed.

The price of an early round draft bust with little experience? a conditional 7th rounder?

footstepsfrom#27
04-22-2009, 03:10 PM
How are Moss and Crowder ever going to trust McDaniels again?
I saw this coming a mile away and stated so on the other thread.

I know this is an opportunity for laughing about these guys, but I don't think this is that funny. It's more than Moss and Crowder at issue here...it's a trend developing that I find disturbing. It might seem like a joke since neither of these guys has done anything, but in fact it's setting a precedent on how this coach does things that the rest of this team can see.

Aside from a trust issue, it's pretty stupid to shop these guys before a preseason game has been played when their value is at it's absolute lowest, and more importantly, it sends a fundamental message to the rest of this team that no level playing field exists here. You won't be allowed to compete based on what you do NOW, but will instead be evaluated on what you did in the past only. Isn't part of the reason we hired the boy genius because our defense sucked? Isn't the coaching staff from the prior regime partly responsible for their performance? Since that's true, wouldn't a new defensive coaching staff hold at least the possibility that they improve? In some cases dumping a guy this early is not an issue (Hackney), but Moss was a #1 pick and might conceivably be a different player as an OLB in this system...in any case I doubt a week in minicamp spent learning a new system reveals whether that's true or not.

Everyone on this board knows that Moss was specifically drafted as a project development guy whose staph infection meant he was not projected to make an impact for a couple of years, so here is the advantage in shopping him now? If we get a 5th rounder for Moss we'll be exceedingly fortunate...probably nothing for Crowder.

I didn't figure either would make the team, but I did think they'd get a chance to show something before they got cut or shipped out.

barryr
04-22-2009, 03:55 PM
It isn't surprising if true. It's a big question that either will fit in a 3-4 defense and neither did much to show they could play well in a 4-3 either. I'd be surprised if the Broncos even got a 7th rounder for either. I think teams would rather wait until they got released to worry about acquiring either of them.

BroncoMan4ever
04-22-2009, 04:22 PM
Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder for the chief's #3 overall pick? win-win-win!

shouldn't that be more like lose-lose-rape

PRBronco
04-22-2009, 04:29 PM
Let the bidding wars begin !!

Step up Giants, we've done you right before.

Redskins always open to invitiations.

Detroit, what a tremendous upgrade these guys would be for you !

Anybody? These are young prospects here !

Ok, Im Done..

I bet Mr. Spagnuolo in St. Louis wouldn't mind trying Jarvis out.

Also I remember a lot of mock drafts that year claiming Jack Del Rio was interested in him. Is Del Rio even the Jags coach any more? I got so wrapped up in Broncos news this offseason I've lost track :S

watermock
04-22-2009, 05:15 PM
I bet Mr. Spagnuolo in St. Louis wouldn't mind trying Jarvis out.


Indeed. Moss had a 1st round grade(Only God knows why), but Why shop him now?

And yes, If Shanny refused to fire slowick (BTW, how many cast offs have been picked up, even for camp fodder?)

This was supposed to be the year we unleashed the draft/FA for defense. We've gooten a worn out S, LB long snapper, spleenless QB for freaking 6 million who hasn't made a pass in 3 years and a CB that MIGHT be as good as bly.

All of a SUDDEN WE HAVE HOLES ON OFFENSE....You think Marshall will be here next year, Scheff? Hillis?

I hate it, but to me we've got a coach that hasn't grown into his shoes yet.

WTF are we getting 3 old, injured RB's? To make a baker's dozen of fail?

Watch Spags turn that defense around in 2 years.

FireFly
04-22-2009, 05:24 PM
What is the point of shopping those two? We will get nothing of any value for them. The odds are better that one of them will click in the new system and actually prove to be of some use than that we will trade them for anything helpful.

I agree. We're not going to get anything of value from trading either of these 2.

Maybe a 5th or 6th round pick? More chance of one of these 2 contributing than a player picked in the 5th or 6th round.

TonyR
04-22-2009, 05:26 PM
Aside from a trust issue, it's pretty stupid to shop these guys before a preseason game has been played when their value is at it's absolute lowest, and more importantly, it sends a fundamental message to the rest of this team that no level playing field exists here.

God you're a drama queen. First, we don't even know if this is true. Second, if it is true don't you think perhaps the coaching staff, including Mike Nolan, have concluded that these guys either can't play or don't fit what they want to do? Or both? Step away from the ledge already, you and your fellow Chicken Littles are embarassing yourselves.

footstepsfrom#27
04-22-2009, 06:02 PM
God you're a drama queen. First, we don't even know if this is true.
Well no doubt little hoodie will be along shortly to tell us what's really going on...oh wait.
Second, if it is true don't you think perhaps the coaching staff, including Mike Nolan, have concluded that these guys either can't play or don't fit what they want to do? Or both? Step away from the ledge already, you and your fellow Chicken Littles are embarassing yourselves.
I'm not the one drawng press for embarassment around the country these days. That would be your hero.

Coaches concluded this based on what...stepping through plays in shorts? Watching film of them from the Shanny regime?...the one that couldn't find a way to hire decent defensive coaches? Both these opportunities for evaluation offer questionable prospects for accuracy. As stated, Moss was not supposed to be ready till now anyway.

I don't care if they dump these guys or not, but as I stated yesterday on the other thread, they're perfect patsies...Shanny holdovers drafted high who they have no reason to be loyal to. That's fine...they don't have to be. But one would think they'd want to maximize opportunity to evaluate these guys.

As I said...this looks like a developing trend here.

Paladin
04-22-2009, 06:28 PM
Whos pubic hairs!!?!? Ray Lewis' pubic hairs!?!?
MCD could pass them around and have the defensive unit eat one of them each, giving all of them super powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's BS. They woulddbe Tedi Bruschi's.....

SonOfLe-loLang
04-22-2009, 06:44 PM
Well no doubt little hoodie will be along shortly to tell us what's really going on...oh wait.

I'm not the one drawng press for embarassment around the country these days. That would be your hero.

Coaches concluded this based on what...stepping through plays in shorts? Watching film of them from the Shanny regime?...the one that couldn't find a way to hire decent defensive coaches? Both these opportunities for evaluation offer questionable prospects for accuracy. As stated, Moss was not supposed to be ready till now anyway.

I don't care if they dump these guys or not, but as I stated yesterday on the other thread, they're perfect patsies...Shanny holdovers drafted high who they have no reason to be loyal to. That's fine...they don't have to be. But one would think they'd want to maximize opportunity to evaluate these guys.

As I said...this looks like a developing trend here.


I don't know what papers youre reading, but who claims McD has been an embarrassment? I think the public opinion believes Jay was the baby and the broncos actually got the better of the deal (according to an ESPN poll)

Also, they are both 4-3 ends. If Nolan thinks they are useless, why even bother? Next season, or in august, they'll have even less value than they have now. Plus, if they cant get anything for em, then they'll come in and compete.

TonyR
04-22-2009, 07:04 PM
Also, they are both 4-3 ends.

And not just that, they couldn't get on the field on one of the worst defensive front sevens in history. Now we're to expect they'll pan out as LB's in a 3-4? I'd love to see it happen but I'd also love to see Marissa Miller show up on my doorstep tonight wearing only a trenchcoat.

cutthemdown
04-22-2009, 07:08 PM
What is the point of shopping those two? We will get nothing of any value for them. The odds are better that one of them will click in the new system and actually prove to be of some use than that we will trade them for anything helpful.

The point is it may be trade or cut because there is no spot on roster for them. Neither fit a 3-4 or have shown they can play a 4-3 at a high level.

Plus they are revered goodman busts picks and I doubt Mcdaniels wants to wast his time trying to fit them somewhere they don't belong.

footstepsfrom#27
04-22-2009, 07:37 PM
Also, they are both 4-3 ends. If Nolan thinks they are useless, why even bother?
You know all these 3-4 OLB's we're talking about as going high in the draft? They're nearly all 4-3 ends who have to learn a new position.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 08:32 PM
You know all these 3-4 OLB's we're talking about as going high in the draft? They're nearly all 4-3 ends who have to learn a new position.

Ahh, that's true. However, neither of them were drafted to play 3-4 OLB either. For Crowder, his natural Skillset is a 4-3 LDE. IMHO, Moss could be a a lethal 3-4 ROLB, but he is too tall by most standards to flip and roll in coverage.

The thing is that these guys struggled mentally to play positions they were uniquely drafted to play on a horrible DL. What gives you confidence they can learn a new language, skillset, reads, and then execute that? I doubt they have the mental skills to transition at all, let alone smoothly....

Dedhed
04-22-2009, 08:36 PM
Where do you find a bag of pubic hairs SSJ? lol
Wherever you find a bag, a pair of scissors, and a consenting adult.

footstepsfrom#27
04-22-2009, 08:52 PM
Ahh, that's true. However, neither of them were drafted to play 3-4 OLB either.
Maybe that's because they were drafted by a team playing the 4-3? Who knows where they'd have gone had we not taken them.
For Crowder, his natural Skillset is a 4-3 LDE. IMHO, Moss could be a a lethal 3-4 ROLB, but he is too tall by most standards to flip and roll in coverage.
I'm not as interested in Crowder's situation, because he arrived here as a guy expected to contribute fairly quickly. Moss however, was known in advance to be a guy that it would take a couple of years due to his delayed development from the staph infection. Everyone knew that. There was never an expectation that he'd contribute early, and missing a season with an injury only retarded that.
The thing is that these guys struggled mentally to play positions they were uniquely drafted to play on a horrible DL. What gives you confidence they can learn a new language, skillset, reads, and then execute that? I doubt they have the mental skills to transition at all, let alone smoothly....
I don't know if the mental aspect of the game is what slowed them or not, nor do I know if they can do any of that, no more than we know that about anybody we draft either...but I do think it's obvious that nothing Slo-witt did with ANY player we had on defense last year was particuarly enticing. Here you have a couple of highly rated guys coming out of college who BOTH failed under the prior coaching staff in a position we have a huge need for. Given what we know about Slowick...wouldn't it make sense to at least see these guys for a few days in TC before dumping them? What will we get in exchange? Probably little to nothing. It's not like we don't see players who fail with one team and suddenly succeed with another all the time. Why summarily toss out two high picks without so much as a last chance check to see how they look under the new coaches? Look at it this way...we're likely to draft some guy in the 4th round with less talent and ask him to do the same job so why not put this off a few months? Where's the downside?

tsiguy96
04-22-2009, 09:26 PM
call me crazy. i will trust mike nolans and josh mcdaniels, a former and current HC and both very, very good coordinators, over the words of FS#27, whos only NFL experience is watching it from his couch.

footstepsfrom#27
04-22-2009, 09:52 PM
call me crazy. i will trust mike nolans and josh mcdaniels, a former and current HC and both very, very good coordinators, over the words of FS#27, whos only NFL experience is watching it from his couch.
Back with another "he's a coach" argument I see. You're not the most creative thinker are you?

BroncoMan4ever
04-22-2009, 10:39 PM
true...we could prolly get a pack of Now & Laters and a pair of Jodeci tickets...

can we just get 3 packs of Now & Laters? Jodeci sucks.

BroncoMan4ever
04-22-2009, 10:41 PM
How are Moss and Crowder ever going to trust McDaniels again?

who gives a damn about these guys feelings. the only thing that is going to miss them is their spots on the bench.

BroncoMan4ever
04-22-2009, 10:47 PM
I agree. We're not going to get anything of value from trading either of these 2.

Maybe a 5th or 6th round pick? More chance of one of these 2 contributing than a player picked in the 5th or 6th round.

5th round picks work for me. we found Larsen in the 5th, so i will take a chance of finding 2 guys like Larsen in the 5th over keeping 1st and 2nd round busts on the roster, wasting 2 spots on the roster that could be filled by someone decent who may actually contribute something

i'd bet more on 5th or 6th rounders becoming more valuable to our team than either of those draft turds.

extralife
04-23-2009, 12:43 AM
Hey, maybe we can move 'em for Cutler. I hear he's a drunk.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-23-2009, 12:45 AM
I actually think Moss could hack it as a 3-4 OLB. I'd rather have him than Tamba freakin' Hali.

Vegas_Bronco
04-23-2009, 01:24 AM
Wait, wait....tell us all again - who is Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder?

TheDave
04-23-2009, 07:53 AM
I actually think Moss could hack it as a 3-4 OLB. I'd rather have him than Tamba freakin' Hali.

Done deal.... Moss and Crowder for Hali :thumbs:

dbfan21
04-23-2009, 08:26 AM
And not just that, they couldn't get on the field on one of the worst defensive front sevens in history. Now we're to expect they'll pan out as LB's in a 3-4? I'd love to see it happen but I'd also love to see Marissa Miller show up on my doorstep tonight wearing only a trenchcoat.

LOL Sorry dude. The whole Marissa Miller thing will never happen. She's on my doorstep with a trenachcoat on as I am typing this. :wiggle: Gotta go.......

Gcver2ver3
04-23-2009, 08:32 AM
can we just get 3 packs of Now & Laters? Jodeci sucks.

man you don't know the half of it...



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oh how the mighty have fallen...

tsiguy96
04-23-2009, 08:50 AM
Back with another "he's a coach" argument I see. You're not the most creative thinker are you?

dude, its indisputable logic. given the information, experience and knowledge he has, every person on this planet should take his professional opinion over yours. if you happen to be right, its a product of luck, not skill.

Taco John
04-23-2009, 09:08 AM
Both those guys and a third rounder for Peppers....


Let's throw in a 5th rounder and see if we can also get Clinton Portis back.

Inkana7
04-23-2009, 12:02 PM
I actually think Moss could hack it as a 3-4 OLB. I'd rather have him than Tamba freakin' Hali.

So you finally agree with me that Tamba Hali sucks.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-23-2009, 12:13 PM
So you finally agree with me that Tamba Hali sucks.

I wouldn't say he sucks. He's just not anything special.

BroncoBuff
04-23-2009, 12:52 PM
call me crazy. i will trust mike nolans and josh mcdaniels, a former and current HC and both very, very good coordinators, over the words of FS#27, whos only NFL experience is watching it from his couch.

Bad argument ... you could thrrow that at every post on this board.

oubronco
04-23-2009, 01:50 PM
I bet the pet insurance posters would disagree

broncosteven
04-23-2009, 03:02 PM
Once they talked about moving them to LB I figured their days are numbered.

BroncoInferno
04-23-2009, 04:09 PM
Maybe that's because they were drafted by a team playing the 4-3? Who knows where they'd have gone had we not taken them.

I'm not as interested in Crowder's situation, because he arrived here as a guy expected to contribute fairly quickly. Moss however, was known in advance to be a guy that it would take a couple of years due to his delayed development from the staph infection. Everyone knew that. There was never an expectation that he'd contribute early, and missing a season with an injury only retarded that.

I don't know if the mental aspect of the game is what slowed them or not, nor do I know if they can do any of that, no more than we know that about anybody we draft either...but I do think it's obvious that nothing Slo-witt did with ANY player we had on defense last year was particuarly enticing. Here you have a couple of highly rated guys coming out of college who BOTH failed under the prior coaching staff in a position we have a huge need for. Given what we know about Slowick...wouldn't it make sense to at least see these guys for a few days in TC before dumping them? What will we get in exchange? Probably little to nothing. It's not like we don't see players who fail with one team and suddenly succeed with another all the time. Why summarily toss out two high picks without so much as a last chance check to see how they look under the new coaches? Look at it this way...we're likely to draft some guy in the 4th round with less talent and ask him to do the same job so why not put this off a few months? Where's the downside?

Do you ever bother to pay attention to what happens on teams when a new coach is brought in? Almost without exception players from the old regime are shown the door if it's deemed they don't fit what the new staff wants to do. McDaniels and Nolan have access to tape on these players that can give them a guess as to whether or not they fit in with their plans. Plus, as was mentioned, we have no idea if any of this is true anyway.

Inkana7
04-23-2009, 08:05 PM
Bad argument ... you could thrrow that at every post on this board.

And it'd have merit.

tsiguy96
04-23-2009, 08:50 PM
And it'd have merit.

exactly.

footstepsfrom#27
04-23-2009, 10:03 PM
dude, its indisputable logic. given the information, experience and knowledge he has, every person on this planet should take his professional opinion over yours. if you happen to be right, its a product of luck, not skill.
You're a complete moron.

Shanahan had "information, experience and knowledge" and had it FAR beyond what this little twerp has who has NEVER BEEN A HEAD COACH FOR ANY TEAM ON ANY LEVEL. Have you questioned anything he did? Then you were wrong weren't you? He's a coach...you're not.

Since this is "indisputable logic", I will hold you accountable from this point on to NEVER post an opinion contrary to ANYTHING done by ANY coach on ANY NFL team. They're all coaches...you're not.

You're an utter idiot.

SoCalBronco
04-23-2009, 10:05 PM
But...but...but the Denver Post said Crowder was looking good at LB!!11111


What a joke. If they can get anything for those guys it would be gravy.

footstepsfrom#27
04-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Do you ever bother to pay attention to what happens on teams when a new coach is brought in? Almost without exception players from the old regime are shown the door if it's deemed they don't fit what the new staff wants to do. McDaniels and Nolan have access to tape on these players that can give them a guess as to whether or not they fit in with their plans. Plus, as was mentioned, we have no idea if any of this is true anyway.
I'm not opposed to him shipping them out. It simply seems that 1) what we're likely to get is probably next to nothing, and 2) since we know how bad the defensive coaching was for these guys...wouldn't it make sense to give a 1st and 2nd round talent a final shot...maybe as much as you'd give a 7th round draft pick?

Why is that difficult to understand?

footstepsfrom#27
04-23-2009, 10:08 PM
But...but...but the Denver Post said Crowder was looking good at LB!!11111


What a joke. If they can get anything for those guys it would be gravy.
SoCal...normally I'd agree. But I ask you...how bad was the prior coaching these two received? I'd say it was highly suspect, wouldnt' you? Where is the downside in giving either or both a final look-see to see if the boy genius and his staff of experts can rearange the damage? If they suck...cut 'em or trade em for the same crap the're going to get anyway.

SoCalBronco
04-23-2009, 10:21 PM
SoCal...normally I'd agree. But I ask you...how bad was the prior coaching these two received? I'd say it was highly suspect, wouldnt' you? Where is the downside in giving either or both a final look-see to see if the boy genius and his staff of experts can rearange the damage? If they suck...cut 'em or trade em for the same crap the're going to get anyway.

With regard to the coaching issue, I think Bill Johnson is probably a decent line coach. I think Burney is probably ****, though. It is fair to want to see how well they will adapt to the LB position with Coach Martindale and in the new scheme. However, they have had a camp already so they've presumably seen something. It might be that it is grossly apparent that these guys are pegged wrongly as LB's and ofcourse cannot play 3-4 DEs. Or it could be that they have plans to draft heavy at the 3-4 OLB pass rushing position in the draft which would make these guys moot, although I suppose we still need some depth.

I suppose the downside of giving them a further look see as you say is that the draft is very close and that if whatever they have seen so far is confirmed in the upcoming minicamp (and ultimately training camp), then they would have pissed away the chance to get additional picks in this draft. If they end up getting cut (not a small possibility given that they appear to dislike them so much based on just OTAs and mini camp), then we'll get nothing. I don't know....we just don't know what Nolan is thinking and what Nolan has seen. It will depend on what we can get. If we got, for example, a 4th for both players combined, I would do it and take the risk. The value of these guys is very, very low, in any scheme, I suspect. Denver did experiment with the 3-4 at times last season (and in the IND game in 2007) and none of these guys appeared to benefit from it, although perhaps the sample size was small. You are correct to say that there is risk involved, but these two don't appear to be the types that will just start blooming as standup LBs. I think Moss is kind of interesting as a rush LB, only because it is a better matchup for him against RBs, but I don't think he would ever overtake Doom at WOLB (I could never see him at SOLB) or any of the pass rushing specialists in this draft that we could be targeting (Brown, Sintim, English, Barwin etc.). With regard to Crowder, it seems he's just a flat out stiff. I think he'd get eaten alive trying to pursue or play the pass...even worse than Doom/Moss, although he has at least shown something in his career, during his rookie season. But that was at DE in a 4-3, which is probably the only place he has even a small chance to succeed.

Archer81
04-23-2009, 10:23 PM
Honestly think Slowik got it in his head that his defensive ends play a certain way, and these two dont fit what he saw, so they sat alot. Stranger things have happened then coaches sitting players because they dont fit the "mold"

:Broncos:

tsiguy96
04-23-2009, 10:26 PM
You're a complete moron.

Shanahan had "information, experience and knowledge" and had it FAR beyond what this little twerp has who has NEVER BEEN A HEAD COACH FOR ANY TEAM ON ANY LEVEL. Have you questioned anything he did? Then you were wrong weren't you? He's a coach...you're not.

Since this is "indisputable logic", I will hold you accountable from this point on to NEVER post an opinion contrary to ANYTHING done by ANY coach on ANY NFL team. They're all coaches...you're not.

You're an utter idiot.

youre right. ill take your experience over a coaches just because every single coach in the league has been wrong before, and you havent (simply because you are in zero position to every make a decision that affects an NFL team)

unlike morons like you, i actually wait to see if stuff works out before deciding if it was a good or bad idea. hiring mcdaniels was a great idea, he turned this into a team instead of the super duper offense and, as dj williams put it, the "2nd class citizens" defense. whether it remains a great idea depends on whether he does a good job. see how that works? i understand the reasoning behind his hiring and like what he is doing, but i will not necessarily say it will destroy this team or make this team a great team (though i prefer to think the latter, because i am a fan and always wish the best for the team instead of moping at home crying because i think they will be awful) without having seen results.

its ****ing entertainment, treat it as such.

footstepsfrom#27
04-23-2009, 10:43 PM
youre right. ill take your experience over a coaches just because every single coach in the league has been wrong before, and you havent (simply because you are in zero position to every make a decision that affects an NFL team)
That's because the next time you have an original idea it'll be the first time.
unlike morons like you, i actually wait to see if stuff works out before deciding if it was a good or bad idea.
hiring mcdaniels was a great idea
Case closed. Bob and yavoon are Mensa candidates next to you. :rofl:
its ****ing entertainment, treat it as such.
You're the entertainment.

tsiguy96
04-24-2009, 09:57 AM
That's because the next time you have an original idea it'll be the first time.


Case closed. Bob and yavoon are Mensa candidates next to you. :rofl:

You're the entertainment.

youre right, because im not jumping off a cliff calling this season a bust right away makes me not have an original idea. im doing waht logical people do and wait to see results before making a judgment on the moves that got there.

mcdaniels was a great idea, he comes from a winning organization, led the best offense in NFL history, turned a 7th round backup into a decent QB (back to back 400 yard games..) and is a TEAM coach, not an OFFENSE coach like shanahan. he understands there is a defense involved in football. whether he turns out good is a different story, and ive never, ever gone extreme opposites of idiots like you who claim this season is over already. ive always said wait and see, and that i THINK mcdaniels will do good but as i said, no one can know as he has never coached an NFL game. i like the moves thus far, cutler was clearly not a leader of the team and hes gone. he signed a great DC and free agents to fill the gaps so we can transition more smoothly.

s0phr0syne
05-03-2009, 05:10 PM
BUMPED for New Info

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/Whispers/2009/wrapup050309.htm

ó One position the Buccaneers could still address through free agency or a trade is defensive end, we hear. Tampa Bay is set on the right side with Gaines Adams entering what the team hopes will be his breakout year, but it isnít completely satisfied with its options on the left side of the line. Former Redskins and Dolphins DE Jason Taylor, a free agent, is one option for the Bucs, who have plenty of salary-cap space available. We hear that trading for Broncos DE-OLB Jarvis Moss is another possibility GM Mark Dominik is exploring. Denver reportedly dangled Moss for a seventh-round pick on Day Two of the draft, but he was not dealt. Moss, a first-round pick in 2007, has been a major disappointment and didnít impress the Broncosí new coaching staff.

cutthemdown
05-03-2009, 05:19 PM
Heres to hoping our new rookies make a bigger impact then Crowder and Moss did. I can't complain I liked those picks when we took them but they have done nothing.

When players don't play that means they got dominated in practice and the coaches don't see them making plays on the field in any situations.

What a bummer to waste such high picks but it shows how first round picks are over rated.

Paladin
05-03-2009, 06:36 PM
Maybe they have a player to trade? Right now. I'd rather they get players, not draft picks......

peacepipe
05-03-2009, 06:53 PM
I wish we could get more than just a 7th for him.

gyldenlove
05-03-2009, 07:02 PM
youre right, because im not jumping off a cliff calling this season a bust right away makes me not have an original idea. im doing waht logical people do and wait to see results before making a judgment on the moves that got there.

mcdaniels was a great idea, he comes from a winning organization, led the best offense in NFL history, turned a 7th round backup into a decent QB (back to back 400 yard games..) and is a TEAM coach, not an OFFENSE coach like shanahan. he understands there is a defense involved in football. whether he turns out good is a different story, and ive never, ever gone extreme opposites of idiots like you who claim this season is over already. ive always said wait and see, and that i THINK mcdaniels will do good but as i said, no one can know as he has never coached an NFL game. i like the moves thus far, cutler was clearly not a leader of the team and hes gone. he signed a great DC and free agents to fill the gaps so we can transition more smoothly.

You say wait and see, yet you say Mcdaniels is a great idea, that doesn't really add up.

Back to back 400 yard games make a great QB these days? You should tell that Billy Volek.

Nolan came from a winning organization and ran one of the best defenses in the league and helped turn undrafted players into stars. Nolans success as a 49ers coach was, that is right, nonexistant.

Florida_Bronco
05-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Heres to hoping our new rookies make a bigger impact then Crowder and Moss did. I can't complain I liked those picks when we took them but they have done nothing.

When players don't play that means they got dominated in practice and the coaches don't see them making plays on the field in any situations.

What a bummer to waste such high picks but it shows how first round picks are over rated.

Or it could be that their coaching was so flat out horrible that they had no chance at starting.

cutthemdown
05-03-2009, 07:21 PM
Or it could be that their coaching was so flat out horrible that they had no chance at starting.

I've played some sports and IMO even without coaching the good players do things on the field. Some things can't be taught.

With Moss we never saw him play, and new staff doesn't seem to want to show us, so that tells me they maybe aren't such good players.

Florida_Bronco
05-03-2009, 07:26 PM
I've played some sports and IMO even without coaching the good players do things on the field. Some things can't be taught.

With Moss we never saw him play, and new staff doesn't seem to want to show us, so that tells me they maybe aren't such good players.

It's alot more complicated than that. A big knock on Jarvis coming out of college was that he wasn't technically sound, so sticking him with a coach who only taught him the bullrush is a recipe for disaster. Add that to recovering from a staph infection and then breaking his leg, and it's not hard to see why he hasn't been on the field much.

Even then, he was showing flashes in 07 (pre-injury) and last year while playing in Slowik's bastard scheme.

Crowder, OTOH, had a very good 07. I've heard he had his own health issues last year that kept him off the field.

TheDave
05-03-2009, 07:29 PM
I'm still surprised Crowder can't get a look as a 5 tech... He would need to put on about 20 lbs but since he came out of college @ 275 I would think that 295 isn't much of a stretch.

JJJ
05-03-2009, 08:11 PM
unlike morons like you, i actually wait to see if stuff works out before deciding if it was a good or bad idea. hiring mcdaniels was a great idea, he turned this into a team instead of the super duper offense and, as dj williams put it, the "2nd class citizens" defense.

These two sentences together are quite ironic. Don't you think before declaring this an effective team after one minicamp isn't jumping the gun a bit?

SoCalBronco
05-03-2009, 08:23 PM
These two sentences together are quite ironic. Don't you think before declaring this an effective team after one minicamp isn't jumping the gun a bit?

tsiguy96 loves to play that "calm down, let's wait and see first" game when he's addressing the critics, but he apparently has no qualms putting on his cheerleader homer outfit whenever it suits him.

It's clear hypocrisy to be sure.

Br0nc0Buster
05-03-2009, 08:57 PM
tsiguy96 loves to play that "calm down, let's wait and see first" game when he's addressing the critics, but he apparently has no qualms putting on his cheerleader homer outfit whenever it suits him.

It's clear hypocrisy to be sure.

He is the ying to your "lets call the owner an alcoholic and insert clever cuss words into the coaches name when they do things I dont like" bit

Moreno Knows Best
05-03-2009, 08:59 PM
He is the ying to your "lets call the owner an alcoholic and insert clever cuss words into the coaches name when they do things I dont like" bit

OSNAP

uplink
05-03-2009, 09:02 PM
Seems like they'd give Moss/Crowder a shot but I guess they want to use the valuable practice time reps on others.

SoCalBronco
05-03-2009, 10:18 PM
He is the ying to your "lets call the owner an alcoholic and insert clever cuss words into the coaches name when they do things I dont like" bit

At least I'm not pretending to be something I'm not like he is.

cutthemdown
05-03-2009, 10:25 PM
It's alot more complicated than that. A big knock on Jarvis coming out of college was that he wasn't technically sound, so sticking him with a coach who only taught him the bullrush is a recipe for disaster. Add that to recovering from a staph infection and then breaking his leg, and it's not hard to see why he hasn't been on the field much.

Even then, he was showing flashes in 07 (pre-injury) and last year while playing in Slowik's bastard scheme.

Crowder, OTOH, had a very good 07. I've heard he had his own health issues last year that kept him off the field.

I guess I just don't buy Broncos coaches were that bad. I thought I saw players last yr in position to make tackles, but time and again they missed them. I actually thought the DT didn't do that bad last yr, but the Dends couldn't hold the edge and the linebackers whiffed quite a bit.

As far as pass rush moves go everyone knows what they are. To turn the edge with an arm under type move (sort of the standard for outside rushers) you have to get low so the only part of you body exposed is your upper body. That lean around the corner is something that should be taught to most players already it's just some not athletic enough to do it.

Moss should be able to do it but what makes you think Broncos didn't try to teach him other moves? Since when is it a forgone conclusion Broncos coaches were that lame.

I for one expect any pro coaches to know the pass rushing techniques and moves, if the coaching was that bad then we have a great yr to look forward to because now its much better with Nolan around.

tsiguy96
05-03-2009, 10:33 PM
tsiguy96 loves to play that "calm down, let's wait and see first" game when he's addressing the critics, but he apparently has no qualms putting on his cheerleader homer outfit whenever it suits him.

It's clear hypocrisy to be sure.

hiring him was a good idea, he brings a lot to the table that this team hasnt had in a long time. i never gauranteed hed be successful. try reading a bit more.

besides, being homer is more fun than being a hater. how you get through youre day when woe is broncos is beyond me.

SoCalBronco
05-03-2009, 10:35 PM
besides, being homer is more fun than being a hater.

Neither of them is fun. I suppose in the very beginning its fun to be a homer, but when you are eventually heartbroken it hurts more than it otherwise would if you looked at things realistically.

tsiguy96
05-03-2009, 10:46 PM
Neither of them is fun. I suppose in the very beginning its fun to be a homer, but when you are eventually heartbroken it hurts more than it otherwise would if you looked at things realistically.

being realistic: cutler being gone is his own doing. this defense WILL be better than last years, simply because it will be hard for it to be worse. the ST is gauranteed to be better, as that was the deal breaker for many of mcdaniels draft picks. the offense WILL be better in red zone efficiency because of a more dominant running game. we will NOT put up as many yards, but will likely put up more points than last year.

given that all 3 phases of the team will likely be improved upon from last year, why all the doom and gloom?

Kaylore
05-03-2009, 10:59 PM
Neither of them is fun. I suppose in the very beginning its fun to be a homer, but when you are eventually heartbroken it hurts more than it otherwise would if you looked at things realistically.

I don't think you're being realistic when you're asking people to throw a cobra at the head coach. The lack of realism is what makes comments like that hilarious.

Florida_Bronco
05-03-2009, 11:00 PM
I guess I just don't buy Broncos coaches were that bad. I thought I saw players last yr in position to make tackles, but time and again they missed them. I actually thought the DT didn't do that bad last yr, but the Dends couldn't hold the edge and the linebackers whiffed quite a bit.

As far as pass rush moves go everyone knows what they are. To turn the edge with an arm under type move (sort of the standard for outside rushers) you have to get low so the only part of you body exposed is your upper body. That lean around the corner is something that should be taught to most players already it's just some not athletic enough to do it.

Moss should be able to do it but what makes you think Broncos didn't try to teach him other moves? Since when is it a forgone conclusion Broncos coaches were that lame.

I for one expect any pro coaches to know the pass rushing techniques and moves, if the coaching was that bad then we have a great yr to look forward to because now its much better with Nolan around.

Why don't you buy it? We have people who attended training camp and told us they witnessed, first hand, Jacob Burney yelling at everyone but not teaching them a single move.

Also, Marcus Thomas himself said that he had only been taught the bull rush and nothing else. How about last year when Slowik and Co. had the entire DL playing in a 4 point stance, which totally negates pass rushing leverage.

Or, what about the fact that they only real pass rushing threats we've had since 2002 (the year Burney came on staff) came from other teams (Berry), were here before Burney (Pryce, Hayward) or were great technicians coming out of college (Dumervil).

Seriously, how much proof do you need that our coaches did nothing? You have to figure that with decent coaching, at least ONE of the players we've brought in for Burney to coach would have panned out.

SoCalBronco
05-03-2009, 11:09 PM
I don't think you're being realistic when you're asking people to throw a cobra at the head coach. The lack of realism is what makes comments like that hilarious.

I thought that was rather amusing, actually. :)

Kaylore
05-03-2009, 11:59 PM
I thought that was rather amusing, actually. :)

It was quite hilarious.:rofl:

azbroncfan
05-04-2009, 02:41 AM
Why don't you buy it? We have people who attended training camp and told us they witnessed, first hand, Jacob Burney yelling at everyone but not teaching them a single move.

Also, Marcus Thomas himself said that he had only been taught the bull rush and nothing else. How about last year when Slowik and Co. had the entire DL playing in a 4 point stance, which totally negates pass rushing leverage.

Or, what about the fact that they only real pass rushing threats we've had since 2002 (the year Burney came on staff) came from other teams (Berry), were here before Burney (Pryce, Hayward) or were great technicians coming out of college (Dumervil).

Seriously, how much proof do you need that our coaches did nothing? You have to figure that with decent coaching, at least ONE of the players we've brought in for Burney to coach would have panned out.


Yawn and repeat what Med and someone else claim. It's getting old sometime you have to realize none of these bums made it anywhere else and your boy Engelberger that I was so outspoken and wrong about is still on the street and has had 0 FA visits.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 06:34 AM
Yawn and repeat what Med and someone else claim. Med is one of MANY who have commented on Burney's lack of coaching. Either Kaylore or Montrose was the one who witnessed it happening at TC and the player's own comments confirm this.

Quit acting like such a tool.

It's getting old sometime you have to realize none of these bums made it anywhere else Maybe because they spent the most important (read: developmental) years with a moron DL coach? On the flip side, how many proven producers have come to Denver and then done nothing? Do you honestly believe it's coincidence.

and your boy Engelberger that I was so outspoken and wrong about is still on the street and has had 0 FA visits. Not too surprised. He's been in the NFL what...a decade now? With the way he's been beat up the past few years and the amount of teams going to 3-4, I'd say his career is probably done for.

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 07:19 AM
I don't think you're being realistic when you're asking people to throw a cobra at the head coach. The lack of realism is what makes comments like that hilarious.

Wait...

WHAT?!?!?

(throws down cobra and HIV syringe in disgust and heads to work)

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 07:21 AM
Also, Marcus Thomas himself said that he had only been taught the bull rush and nothing else. How about last year when Slowik and Co. had the entire DL playing in a 4 point stance, which totally negates pass rushing leverage

Mind if I ask where the hell you heard that from? Watch the league's premier DE's on passing downs and then post what, predominantly, their stance is please.

barryr
05-04-2009, 07:24 AM
The Bronco coaches on defense have been average at best and clearly could not make anyone look that good regardless of talent. Anyone who doesn't know or think that just hasn't been paying attention to this team for very long. Hello. This bad defense just didn't start last season.

Beantown Bronco
05-04-2009, 07:27 AM
To all the "coaches are to blame for the players sucking" not "the players suck all on their own" crowd, answer me this:

Why have pretty much all of the Denver Broncos defensive coaches found other homes after leaving, yet not one single guy cut from the Broncos this past year (and we're talking 7 STARTERS here) even gotten a sniff from other teams? And nobody is even offering a 7th rounder for Moss or Crowder.

I'm not saying the coaching was anywhere near stellar, but it's not completely to blame here.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Mind if I ask where the hell you heard that from? Watch the league's premier DE's on passing downs and then post what, predominantly, their stance is please.

I learned that back in peewee football. Don't believe me? Check out the videos below.

Colts comeback vs. Texans (plenty of Dwight Freeney)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmY_bkpbyME

Couple Simeon Rice clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qSULXDHZs

Mario Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG8sEfHUdE8

I don't see a single 4 point stance anywhere in those clips, and these are the premier pass rushing DEs in the last decade or so.

So what were you saying again? ???

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 08:16 AM
To all the "coaches are to blame for the players sucking" not "the players suck all on their own" crowd, answer me this:

Why have pretty much all of the Denver Broncos defensive coaches found other homes after leaving, yet not one single guy cut from the Broncos this past year (and we're talking 7 STARTERS here) even gotten a sniff from other teams? And nobody is even offering a 7th rounder for Moss or Crowder.

I'm not saying the coaching was anywhere near stellar, but it's not completely to blame here.

Actually, it was just the DL coaches (Burney, specifically) and Slowik that were so horrible. I guess Bill Johnson was quite a bit better than Burney, for whatever that's worth.

Burney has not be hired again to my knowledge, and Slowik is back where to coaching defensive backs, where he actually excels.

As far as Moss goes, it's alot like the Scheffler trade rumor in that it's pure speculation being repeated by alot of people. No one reliable has confirmed it yet, and didn't McDaniel's just say in his presser that Moss had earned a starting spot going into camp?

barryr
05-04-2009, 08:17 AM
To all the "coaches are to blame for the players sucking" not "the players suck all on their own" crowd, answer me this:

Why have pretty much all of the Denver Broncos defensive coaches found other homes after leaving, yet not one single guy cut from the Broncos this past year (and we're talking 7 STARTERS here) even gotten a sniff from other teams? And nobody is even offering a 7th rounder for Moss or Crowder.

I'm not saying the coaching was anywhere near stellar, but it's not completely to blame here.

Shanahan "helped" get that defensive "talent. I doubt we'll see Slowik be a DC anytime soon. Burney was the DL coach for many years, yet when has the DL ever been considered above average? Heck, in their 2 Super Bowl runs they had to go out and sign Alfred Williams and Neil Smith since they couldn't draft DL well then either. Only Pryce became the only stellar DL the Broncos ever drafted under Shanahan. That's in 14 years.

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 08:25 AM
Mind if I ask where the hell you heard that from? Watch the league's premier DE's on passing downs and then post what, predominantly, their stance is please.

The stance is a 3-point, not 4.

ohiobronco2
05-04-2009, 08:26 AM
I'm willing to bet it is a little of both. It's amazing that it has to be one extreme or another. Some of our player suck and some of it is bad coaching. If you think Nolan is going to come in and this team is going to be a top ten D overnight, I think you're dreaming. I know he was the head coach, but how great was SF's D when he was there (32nd, 26th, 25th). OMG, he's amazing, 32nd, 26th and 25th in overall D. Crown his a**. It's both personel and players people.

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 09:10 AM
I learned that back in peewee football. Don't believe me? Check out the videos below.

Colts comeback vs. Texans (plenty of Dwight Freeney)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmY_bkpbyME

Couple Simeon Rice clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qSULXDHZs

Mario Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG8sEfHUdE8

I don't see a single 4 point stance anywhere in those clips, and these are the premier pass rushing DEs in the last decade or so.

So what were you saying again? ???


I'm glad you've decided to apply your peewee football experience to the NFL. Now you can explain to me the difference between the two and how it effects play, right?

gyldenlove
05-04-2009, 09:28 AM
hiring him was a good idea, he brings a lot to the table that this team hasnt had in a long time. i never gauranteed hed be successful. try reading a bit more.

besides, being homer is more fun than being a hater. how you get through youre day when woe is broncos is beyond me.

Hiring someone who is not successful is a good idea?

What does he bring? he is considered a great offensive coach, just like Shanahan and Kubiak, he has no experience with front office stuff, I am sure we have lots of people who have no experience with front office stuff, Champ Bailey for one, He has no head coaching experience, just like Slowick and Kubiak before he left.

skpac1001
05-04-2009, 09:50 AM
Hiring someone who is not successful is a good idea?

What does he bring? he is considered a great offensive coach, just like Shanahan and Kubiak, he has no experience with front office stuff, I am sure we have lots of people who have no experience with front office stuff, Champ Bailey for one, He has no head coaching experience, just like Slowick and Kubiak before he left.

As opposed to hiring someone with head coaching experience who is available because he has proven he isn't successful as a HC?

tsiguy96
05-04-2009, 10:37 AM
Hiring someone who is not successful is a good idea?

What does he bring? he is considered a great offensive coach, just like Shanahan and Kubiak, he has no experience with front office stuff, I am sure we have lots of people who have no experience with front office stuff, Champ Bailey for one, He has no head coaching experience, just like Slowick and Kubiak before he left.

i dont even know what youre saying, i never said he WASNT successful moron, stop reaching for **** to bitch about and try being a happy camper atleast until you find something legitimate to cry over: i.e poor performance on the field.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm glad you've decided to apply your peewee football experience to the NFL. Now you can explain to me the difference between the two and how it effects play, right?

Quit being a block head dude. You tried to tell me that premier DE's mostly use the 4 point and the videos I showed you prove that incorrect.

Quit trying to dance around this one.

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 02:58 PM
Quit being a block head dude. You tried to tell me that premier DE's mostly use the 4 point and the videos I showed you prove that incorrect.

Quit trying to dance around this one.

No I didn't... I said check them out and come up with a ratio of what's being used. If you want to run rampant with myopic and ignorant statements that "OMG the 4 point isn't used for pass rush! Burney sucks!" without even knowing WHAT the 4 point really does, then so be it.

Btw, Mario's in a 4 point his entire video. Notice how you can see his left hand down. The right hand will also be down because you ALWAYS have the hand closest to the ball down when pass-rushing.

Btw, if you'd like to know why a 4 point stance gets used, feel free to ask and I will tell you.

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 03:05 PM
I'm glad you've decided to apply your peewee football experience to the NFL. Now you can explain to me the difference between the two and how it effects play, right?

Dude Florida rubbed you nose in the dirt, I mean really rubbed your nose right down into the dirt where your snot was making dirtballs.

barryr
05-04-2009, 03:08 PM
Good coaches also have a way of getting personnel to overachieve and can still be effective defenses, at least get it to the middle of the pack, and not what the junk the Broncos have been putting out lately.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Med is one of MANY who have commented on Burney's lack of coaching. Either Kaylore or Montrose was the one who witnessed it happening at TC and the player's own comments confirm this.

Quit acting like such a tool.

Maybe because they spent the most important (read: developmental) years with a moron DL coach? On the flip side, how many proven producers have come to Denver and then done nothing? Do you honestly believe it's coincidence.

Not too surprised. He's been in the NFL what...a decade now? With the way he's been beat up the past few years and the amount of teams going to 3-4, I'd say his career is probably done for.


Ok time to clarify the misinformation.

The 4 point stance and why it is used by downlineman. It is a viable stance and is used for a specific reason.

When you are in a 3 point stance you are at same level as oline. When you go to a 4 point stance you lower your bodies center of gravity, mostly your ass!!!! It's used by dline coaches when you go up against a bigger player. 2 players, both in a 3 point, that battle almost always goes to the bigger player.

When going up against an oline that is bigger then you its standard football thinking to put your guys into a 4 point stance to slow down the run.

Just guessing that some people must not have played football if you don't know these things already.

It's a viable technique for a small defense.

Don't blame the coach for doing what he needed to do to keep the Broncos small, pussified dline from getting blown off the LOS every play like they were the yr before.

The DT did a much better job last yr, then yr before, IMO.

What Broncos need is bigger dlineman so you don't have to try and get lower to the ground then the offense.

It wasn't coaching, Broncos just didn't have enough good players, or engouh big players.

Ayers goes almost 280 so that should help. Fields goes about 325 so that should help. Marcus should be a little bigger and stronger hopefully.

When determining what stance you will use as a dlineman, down and distance factor in, but also how much bigger or stronger then the guy blocking you also factors in.

I suggest more of you really learn the ins and outs of football rather then just say so and so told me they don't teach at practice.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 03:21 PM
The proven producers Rice and Gardner didn't get jobs after Denver so no way it was coaching.

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 03:27 PM
No I didn't... I said check them out and come up with a ratio of what's being used. If you want to run rampant with myopic and ignorant statements that "OMG the 4 point isn't used for pass rush! Burney sucks!" without even knowing WHAT the 4 point really does, then so be it.

Btw, Mario's in a 4 point his entire video. Notice how you can see his left hand down. The right hand will also be down because you ALWAYS have the hand closest to the ball down when pass-rushing.

Btw, if you'd like to know why a 4 point stance gets used, feel free to ask and I will tell you.

i ask, I don't know.

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 03:36 PM
Ok time to clarify the misinformation.

The 4 point stance and why it is used by downlineman. It is a viable stance and is used for a specific reason.

When you are in a 3 point stance you are at same level as oline. When you go to a 4 point stance you lower your bodies center of gravity, mostly your ass!!!! It's used by dline coaches when you go up against a bigger player. 2 players, both in a 3 point, that battle almost always goes to the bigger player.

When going up against an oline that is bigger then you its standard football thinking to put your guys into a 4 point stance to slow down the run.

Just guessing that some people must not have played football if you don't know these things already.

It's a viable technique for a small defense.

Don't blame the coach for doing what he needed to do to keep the Broncos small, pussified dline from getting blown off the LOS every play like they were the yr before.

The DT did a much better job last yr, then yr before, IMO.

What Broncos need is bigger dlineman so you don't have to try and get lower to the ground then the offense.

It wasn't coaching, Broncos just didn't have enough good players, or engouh big players.

Ayers goes almost 280 so that should help. Fields goes about 325 so that should help. Marcus should be a little bigger and stronger hopefully.

When determining what stance you will use as a dlineman, down and distance factor in, but also how much bigger or stronger then the guy blocking you also factors in.

I suggest more of you really learn the ins and outs of football rather then just say so and so told me they don't teach at practice.

Well done. Rep to you, and more importantly, some respect.

Some finer points you didn't mention:

You pretty much said this but to put it in black and white - It gets you under your opponents pad level. It's why a player like Elvis who relies on leverage moves can get to the QB.

Drawbacks of a 4 point: Your weight is already moving forward and your pad level is low, making stunts EXTREMELY unaffective.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 03:44 PM
No I didn't... I said check them out and come up with a ratio of what's being used. No, that's not what you said. You said...

Watch the league's premier DE's on passing downs and then post what, predominantly, their stance is please.

I did exactly what you asked. I posted video clips of premier pass rushing ends and they all use the 3 point. m

If you want to run rampant with myopic and ignorant statements that "OMG the 4 point isn't used for pass rush! Burney sucks!" without even knowing WHAT the 4 point really does, then so be it. I know what the 4 point stance does, and apparently so does the rest of the NFL because I don't see any 4 point stances there.

Btw, Mario's in a 4 point his entire video. Notice how you can see his left hand down. The right hand will also be down because you ALWAYS have the hand closest to the ball down when pass-rushing. You need glasses dude, seriously. Watch the shot at 41 seconds and try to tell me, with a straight face, that is a 4 point.

Here. 1:21 into this video you CLEARLY see Mario in a 3 point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dImtYvSUKc&feature=related

Btw, if you'd like to know why a 4 point stance gets used, feel free to ask and I will tell you. Thanks, but I know what the 4 point is used for.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 03:44 PM
Thanks rev.

Also in a 4 point stance it's very easy to get too far forward.

Now do I think having Dends in a 4 point stance on an obvious passing down makes it tough to get to the QB, yes I do.

I have to be honest and say I don't remember if Broncos dends spent a lot of time in a 4 point stance on 3rd and long.

As far as Thomas saying all he got to do is bull rush. Broncos coaches probably felt with tiny MLB Webster, and tiny Winborn playing a lot, that they couldn't afford to let the DT freelance into the gaps trying to make moves to the QB. You do that and often the oline will run a trap, bust RBS through the gut and now your small linebackers are dealing with olineman and a RB at full speed.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 03:46 PM
Trust me Florida Burney knows way more about teaching football then you do.

Even if he made mistakes and had Broncos in 4 point too much ( I don't remember to tell you the truth) He still has forgotten more then you will ever know.

It would be like him trying to tell you how to patrol a mall on your segway.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Ok time to clarify the misinformation.

The 4 point stance and why it is used by downlineman. It is a viable stance and is used for a specific reason.

When you are in a 3 point stance you are at same level as oline. When you go to a 4 point stance you lower your bodies center of gravity, mostly your ass!!!! It's used by dline coaches when you go up against a bigger player. 2 players, both in a 3 point, that battle almost always goes to the bigger player.

When going up against an oline that is bigger then you its standard football thinking to put your guys into a 4 point stance to slow down the run. Thanks for proving my point for me.

socalorado
05-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Trust me Florida Burney knows way more about teaching football then you do.

Even if he made mistakes and had Broncos in 4 point too much ( I don't remember to tell you the truth) He still has forgotten more then you will ever know.

It would be like him trying to tell you how to patrol a mall on your segway.


Hilarious!

*i cant stop laughing!!"

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 03:59 PM
Now do I think having Dends in a 4 point stance on an obvious passing down makes it tough to get to the QB, yes I do. So what's your argument than? We both are in agreement that the 4 point is a run stopping stance.

As far as Thomas saying all he got to do is bull rush. Broncos coaches probably felt with tiny MLB Webster, and tiny Winborn playing a lot, that they couldn't afford to let the DT freelance into the gaps trying to make moves to the QB. You do that and often the oline will run a trap, bust RBS through the gut and now your small linebackers are dealing with olineman and a RB at full speed.

He didn't say it was the only thing he got to do, he said it was the only thing he was taught to do, meaning he had been given no coaching on any other pass rushing moves. His quote was very clear.

Trust me Florida Burney knows way more about teaching football then you do.

Even if he made mistakes and had Broncos in 4 point too much ( I don't remember to tell you the truth) He still has forgotten more then you will ever know.

It would be like him trying to tell you how to patrol a mall on your segway.

Maybe he does, but then why hasn't he teaching it to the players? All the knowledge in the world doesn't make a difference if you can't effectively teach it, or even attempt to.

And if he is so good, how come no one has hired him?

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 04:17 PM
:parrot:

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 04:18 PM
:parrot:

:mullet1:

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 04:23 PM
No, that's not what you said. You said...



I did exactly what you asked. I posted video clips of premier pass rushing ends and they all use the 3 point. m

I know what the 4 point stance does, and apparently so does the rest of the NFL because I don't see any 4 point stances there.

You need glasses dude, seriously. Watch the shot at 41 seconds and try to tell me, with a straight face, that is a 4 point.

Here. 1:21 into this video you CLEARLY see Mario in a 3 point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dImtYvSUKc&feature=related

Thanks, but I know what the 4 point is used for.

Is Rev a mentally challenged guy I should tiptoe around? I see you challenging him, but everybody else seems to respect him for some reason. I don't know the dynamics of the board. I don't want to pick on him if he's a little slow.

TheReverend
05-04-2009, 04:26 PM
Is Rev a mentally challenged guy I should tiptoe around? I see you challenging him, but everybody else seems to respect him for some reason. I don't know the dynamics of the board. I don't want to pick on him if he's a little slow.

Yes, extremely mentally challenged.

gyldenlove
05-04-2009, 04:29 PM
i dont even know what youre saying, i never said he WASNT successful moron, stop reaching for **** to b**** about and try being a happy camper atleast until you find something legitimate to cry over: i.e poor performance on the field.

You said hiring him was a good idea, but you also said you couldn't guarantee he would be successful. So you say it is a good idea to hire a guy despite the fact that he may not be successful.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 04:30 PM
Is Rev a mentally challenged guy I should tiptoe around? I see you challenging him, but everybody else seems to respect him for some reason. I don't know the dynamics of the board. I don't want to pick on him if he's a little slow.

I like Rev. He's a good guy and one of my favorite posters, but he's very stubborn and sometimes you just have to really beat him over the head with facts before he gets it. :thumbsup:

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 04:34 PM
Yes, extremely mentally challenged.

Relax.

gyldenlove
05-04-2009, 04:34 PM
As opposed to hiring someone with head coaching experience who is available because he has proven he isn't successful as a HC?

Shanahan wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Oakland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Belichick wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Cleveland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Just because a guy doesn't do well on his first HC job doesn't make him a failure, I have a feeling the HOF will back me on this one.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 04:45 PM
Thanks for proving my point for me.

My original argument was that Moss and Crowder stink because they aren't good players and it isn't the coaches fault.

I also said that I can't remember Broncos ends being in a 4 point on obvious passing downs. The main reason for the 4 point is getting lower though, which can also be used to bull rush the passer. Why Bull rush? Because it keeps Dline in its lanes to avoid big gaps in the line.

Why do this? Because you don't trust the Safety's and linebacking.

I could see Burny and Slowik talking and saying even in a 3 point Englerberger, Moss, An injured Doom etc probably won't get many sacks, but will expose our crap secondary and linebacking.

So no it's not only used to stop run, it's also used to Rush passer by being lower. It's always used to get your pads under the pads of the blocker.

It can actually work really well. Remember Jumpy Geathers? He was the master of the forklift move. It came from a 4 point stance and he would actually toss his blocker back when he exploded into him by bringing both hands up under the blockers pads and lifting him off his base.

I'm no expert but I think Your blanket statement that it's a run stance is incorrect and I should have been more clear in my statement. It is better for keeping Dline in there gaps, lanes, because they do less stunting, and that does help run, but it doesn't mean they can't get to QB.

skpac1001
05-04-2009, 04:46 PM
Shanahan wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Oakland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Belichick wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Cleveland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Just because a guy doesn't do well on his first HC job doesn't make him a failure, I have a feeling the HOF will back me on this one.

I have to admit it, you convinced me. Now I agree with you that just because someone doesn't have a successful former background as a HC doesn't mean they aren't a smart hire.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 04:50 PM
This yr we have a great box safety in Dawkins. We can tell a Dend.OLB to go wide and try to turn the corner, Tell Dawkins to watch that side of the LOS, if it's a run fill that lane and pop the ball carrier. Everyone knows last yr our safety's lost that type of matchup everygame.

People Knew any 1-1 matchup with your skill player, vs our Safety's, meant big play for your offense. They threw to Rbs all yr long because of it.

Pass rush? Hell most of time they had open WR so quick that had more to do with the low sacks as no rush.

I remember QBS just dropping back and throwing ball. It never seemed they were forced to number 2-3 option. At least not from what I remember.

It sure would be fun to get to talk to someone like Mcdaniels who actually went back and watched every play. That's what he has done. That's what coaches do.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 04:52 PM
Shanahan wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Oakland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Belichick wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Cleveland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Just because a guy doesn't do well on his first HC job doesn't make him a failure, I have a feeling the HOF will back me on this one.

One of your more convincing arguments. I failed logic in college LOL, what was that modus ponus stuff anyways? But I have a feeling you just modusdominatious him, or something like that!!!!!!!!!!LOL

Does the rest of the world understand logic and USA is just dumb, or is that **** really hard?

Drek
05-04-2009, 05:11 PM
As far as Thomas saying all he got to do is bull rush. Broncos coaches probably felt with tiny MLB Webster, and tiny Winborn playing a lot, that they couldn't afford to let the DT freelance into the gaps trying to make moves to the QB. You do that and often the oline will run a trap, bust RBS through the gut and now your small linebackers are dealing with olineman and a RB at full speed.

I think the problem with that comment from Marcus Thomas wasn't that all he gets to do is bull rush, but that all he knows how to do is bull rush.

So covering up for defensive weaknesses come game day or not, his development as an all around DT had basically been halted if in his second year he still basically had the bull rush and nothing else to work with.

I largely agree that a lot of our front seven problems stems from a poor talent base to start with. But guys like Jarvis Moss and Elvis Dumervil where asked to sit in on running downs, play a four point stance, and get something done. Then people where surprised when they failed. Come passing downs we still kept with that same ultra conservative mindset and didn't let Dumervil go out and get the passer like we should've (though by then he'd probably be too gassed anyways, from trying to stuff the run).

It was a poorly coached, poorly utilized front seven last year. We all got a great example of that when we saw Woodyard and Larsen, a UDFA and 5th rounder who was supposed to convert to FB respectively, step in and out play every LB except DJ Williams (prior to injury). Then when the guys they where outplaying where healthy (or in Woodyard/DJ's case barely healthy enough to pass a team physical) the young guys where shuffled out and the old broke down vets got their jobs back.

To keep it defensive line relevant though, why did it take six weeks of the NFL season for the DL coaches to realize that John Engelberger was a lesser player than Ebenezer Ekuban? Ek was hurt he year before, sure, but he was active through pretty much all of camp and in '07 was hands down our best DL. Engelberger started six games. One of those (the last one) was a loss to Jacksonville at home by a single touchdown, in which Jones-Drew ran all over us. If Ekuban makes just a couple more plays than what Engelberger gave us (entirely likely) or contains slightly better on average to allow LBs to make tackles just a step sooner, we possibly win that game and would've locked up a playoff birth in week 14.

Lot of issues with the defensive coaching last year. Do they know more about football than I do? For sure. But where they performing at an acceptable level for being employed at the highest tier of their profession? You got a tough sell to convince me of that one.

Kaylore
05-04-2009, 05:14 PM
So does anyone actually think we'll get anything for either of these guys?

oubronco
05-04-2009, 05:17 PM
So does anyone actually think we'll get anything for either of these guys?

NO

TheDave
05-04-2009, 05:19 PM
NO

+1

GeniusatWork
05-04-2009, 05:47 PM
This yr we have a great box safety in Dawkins. We can tell a Dend.OLB to go wide and try to turn the corner, Tell Dawkins to watch that side of the LOS, if it's a run fill that lane and pop the ball carrier. Everyone knows last yr our safety's lost that type of matchup everygame.

People Knew any 1-1 matchup with your skill player, vs our Safety's, meant big play for your offense. They threw to Rbs all yr long because of it.

Pass rush? Hell most of time they had open WR so quick that had more to do with the low sacks as no rush.

I remember QBS just dropping back and throwing ball. It never seemed they were forced to number 2-3 option. At least not from what I remember.

It sure would be fun to get to talk to someone like Mcdaniels who actually went back and watched every play. That's what he has done. That's what coaches do.

Can Denver have the most kickass D in the NFL in two years? That's pretty ridiculous, ok. It sure would be great to see Denver have the leauge's kickass D in 2011.

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 06:04 PM
My original argument was that Moss and Crowder stink because they aren't good players and it isn't the coaches fault. If they weren't good players, they wouldn't have been 1st round prospects.

Also, why did they both look like solid rookies when Bates was here? Crowder had a very respectable rookie season and Moss was looking good before he broke his leg.

I don't understand why you can't grasp this. Both Crowder and Moss are physical freaks who lacked fundamentals coming out of college, so why are you shocked when they don't perform as well in the pros (where fundamentals are so much more important) when we basically neglect teaching those needed fundamentals.

I also said that I can't remember Broncos ends being in a 4 point on obvious passing downs. The main reason for the 4 point is getting lower though, which can also be used to bull rush the passer. Why Bull rush? Because it keeps Dline in its lanes to avoid big gaps in the line.

Why do this? Because you don't trust the Safety's and linebacking. I understand the logic, but I don't agree with it at all, and I don't see how you could after the disaster that was the 08 defense. We cut the DL's balls off to have them hold the run, which created no pressure on the passer, along him to carve up the back 7.[/QUOTE]

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't know. I think te be kicks ass the will have to get really lucky with at least one def player. Have a guy not only be good enough to start but be a star. Like a Clady equal etc.

If Ayers is a stud, and smith can be a good starter, and Broncos found 2 more good starters by next yr, and Dawkins can play 3 yrs, or one of the young saftey's turns into a starter, Bailey hangs around, yes Broncos I think could have a great defense not this yr but maybe next yr or yr after.

cutthemdown
05-04-2009, 06:07 PM
So does anyone actually think we'll get anything for either of these guys?

I don't, Chad Jackson was a 2nd rounder was cut. Teams don't often give picks for players that haven't done squat in NFL.

At most a 7th round pick IMO.

Br0nc0Buster
05-04-2009, 06:09 PM
Also, why did they both look like solid rookies when Bates was here? Crowder had a very respectable rookie season and Moss was looking good before he broke his leg.


Really?
I cant recall Moss ever looking good.
I dont know what happened to Crowder, but Moss....that guy just flat out sucks

Florida_Bronco
05-04-2009, 06:13 PM
Really?
I cant recall Moss ever looking good.
I dont know what happened to Crowder, but Moss....that guy just flat out sucks

Watch some of his games from 2007. When he got on the field, he was looking pretty solid, especially for a guy who was still coming back from a staph infection.

Not a world beater by any means, but you could see the potential there.

As for Crowder, supposedly he was having back issues last year and that's why he wasn't on the field.

azbroncfan
05-05-2009, 02:15 AM
Watch some of his games from 2007. When he got on the field, he was looking pretty solid, especially for a guy who was still coming back from a staph infection.

Not a world beater by any means, but you could see the potential there.

As for Crowder, supposedly he was having back issues last year and that's why he wasn't on the field.

He was 2 years removed from that infection. Moss is a physical speciman who either doesn't have the ability to absorb coaching or recieved poor coaching. Anyway if he is that good the new coaching should help him out and Florida Bronco is the winner of the discussion just thought we should get that out of the way and save him a post or two.

TheReverend
05-05-2009, 04:59 AM
If they weren't good players, they wouldn't have been 1st round prospects.

Also, why did they both look like solid rookies when Bates was here? Crowder had a very respectable rookie season and Moss was looking good before he broke his leg.

I don't understand why you can't grasp this. Both Crowder and Moss are physical freaks who lacked fundamentals coming out of college, so why are you shocked when they don't perform as well in the pros (where fundamentals are so much more important) when we basically neglect teaching those needed fundamentals.

I understand the logic, but I don't agree with it at all, and I don't see how you could after the disaster that was the 08 defense. We cut the DL's balls off to have them hold the run, which created no pressure on the passer, along him to carve up the back 7.[/QUOTE]

If you were right about any of your points in this thread, the FO would be salivating over the idea of having another 1st and 2nd round prospect and not trying to dump them for 7th round picks, and being unsuccessful at it.

Drek
05-05-2009, 05:48 AM
Shanahan wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Oakland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Belichick wasn't particularly successful as a HC with Cleveland. He worked out all right didn't he?

Just because a guy doesn't do well on his first HC job doesn't make him a failure, I have a feeling the HOF will back me on this one.

Bill Belichick took over a 3-13 Browns team that was very old and on massive decline, his fourth year as the HC they where 11-5 and won a playoff game. The staff he'd assembled there constitutes much of the staff he used in New England, the current Browns HC, the Ravens' current GM, the Lions current HC, the Chiefs GM, the Falcons GM, the HC at Notre Dame, and I could go on.

He was wildy successful in Cleveland at building a world class organization and turning around a team that was headed for massive decline. If the owner hadn't told everyone in Cleveland that he was moving after the season ended they might've made a legitimate run in '95. Instead they played their home games on one half of a football field because fans where throwing chairs at the home team's players.

So does anyone actually think we'll get anything for either of these guys?

Hell no. I'm just hoping the light comes on for one of the two and we get a solid contributor out of it.

Florida_Bronco
05-05-2009, 05:51 AM
He was 2 years removed from that infection. True, but the infection had caused he weight to drop down to around 210 or so I believe. He was not nearly "recovered" physically when he was drafted.

Moss is a physical speciman who either doesn't have the ability to absorb coaching or recieved poor coaching. Anyway if he is that good the new coaching should help him out and Florida Bronco is the winner of the discussion just thought we should get that out of the way and save him a post or two. That's pretty much what I've been saying. Everything I've read about him remarks about his intelligence, so I find it hard to believe it's mental with him.

We got proven and talented coaches now. Let's see how he does.

Florida_Bronco
05-05-2009, 05:53 AM
If you were right about any of your points in this thread, the FO would be salivating over the idea of having another 1st and 2nd round prospect and not trying to dump them for 7th round picks, and being unsuccessful at it.

Again, this is just like the Scheffler trade rumors. We had alot of speculation about the players not fitting the scheme and people are running with it. Until we hear it from a somewhat credible source, it's bunk.

Also, didn't McDaniels just say that Moss had earned a starting spot going into camp? Kinda odd to do that when they supposedly want to unload him, don't you think?

TheReverend
05-05-2009, 05:58 AM
Again, this is just like the Scheffler trade rumors. We had alot of speculation about the players not fitting the scheme and people are running with it. Until we hear it from a somewhat credible source, it's bunk.

Also, didn't McDaniels just say that Moss had earned a starting spot going into camp? Kinda odd to do that when they supposedly want to unload him, don't you think?

No, not at all.

We're coming from an era where mind-games like that were par for the course on a daily basis. Whether that culture has changed or is still the same remains to be seen.

"Earning" a starting spot in a rookie camp, is cute, but you're seriously reading into that?

Florida_Bronco
05-05-2009, 06:00 AM
No, not at all.

We're coming from an era where mind-games like that were par for the course on a daily basis. Whether that culture has changed or is still the same remains to be seen. With Shanahan still at the helm, I would have agreed with you, but McD seems to have no interest in these smoke screen games.

"Earning" a starting spot in a rookie camp, is cute, but you're seriously reading into that? It's all we have to go on so far. None the less, it's encouraging announcement about a player that many thought was a bust and had no future in the 3-4.

TheReverend
05-05-2009, 06:22 AM
With Shanahan still at the helm, I would have agreed with you, but McD seems to have no interest in these smoke screen games.

It's all we have to go on so far. None the less, it's encouraging announcement about a player that many thought was a bust and had no future in the 3-4.

Yeah, McDaniels has been nothing but upfront about personnel, especially those he's considering moving...

:rofl:

Broncos_OTM
05-05-2009, 07:18 AM
If they weren't good players, they wouldn't have been 1st round prospects.

Also, why did they both look like solid rookies when Bates was here? Crowder had a very respectable rookie season and Moss was looking good before he broke his leg.

I don't understand why you can't grasp this. Both Crowder and Moss are physical freaks who lacked fundamentals coming out of college, so why are you shocked when they don't perform as well in the pros (where fundamentals are so much more important) when we basically neglect teaching those needed fundamentals.

I understand the logic, but I don't agree with it at all, and I don't see how you could after the disaster that was the 08 defense. We cut the DL's balls off to have them hold the run, which created no pressure on the passer, along him to carve up the back 7.[/QUOTE]
Moss was drafted purely andprobably entirely on potential. He was VERY raw as a player. His ceiling was HIGH his play since being drafted is low. he was a boom or bust type guy. Much like micheal johnson from GA tech this year

Florida_Bronco
05-05-2009, 07:20 AM
Moss was drafted purely andprobably entirely on potential. He was VERY raw as a player. His ceiling was HIGH his play since being drafted is low. he was a boom or bust type guy. Much like micheal johnson from GA tech this year[/QUOTE]

All true.

vancejohnson82
05-05-2009, 08:33 AM
I have to admit it, you convinced me. Now I agree with you that just because someone doesn't have a successful former background as a HC doesn't mean they aren't a smart hire.

no, its that your point overall just sucks....

who was available? Spags? Another one who doesnt have head coaching experience. THe defensive Coordinator from the Bucs (Davis?) didnt have any either and they were the ones at the top of the list.

If we would have hired either of them you would be bitching too

but hey, Herm is out there...he's got experience....or how about Mike Ditka? I'm sure he would have loved Cutler's routine and he's got experience...

TonyR
05-05-2009, 08:46 AM
no, its that your point overall just sucks....


Good post, I HATE the "no head coaching experience" reasoning. Does anybody notice that all of the "inexperienced" guys got jobs this past offseason while the "experienced" guys didn't? Very similar to the last couple of years with Tomlin in Pitt, Harbaugh in Baltimore, Smith in Atlanta, Sparano in Miami, etc. Now look at this offseason with Rex Ryan to the Jets, Morris in Tampa, Haley to KC, etc. Some of you dopes act like Denver is the first and only team to not hire a retread head coach.

TheReverend
05-05-2009, 08:50 AM
Good post, I HATE the "no head coaching experience" reasoning. Does anybody notice that all of the "inexperienced" guys got jobs this past offseason while the "experienced" guys didn't? Very similar to the last couple of years with Tomlin in Pitt, Harbaugh in Baltimore, Smith in Atlanta, Sparano in Miami, etc. Now look at this offseason with Rex Ryan to the Jets, Morris in Tampa, Haley to KC, etc. Some of you dopes act like Denver is the first and only team to not hire a retread head coach.

Copy cat league. When the next Linnehan shows up and murders a franchise, and Cowher or Shanahan or another vet make a competitor, owner's priorities will shift once again.

TonyR
05-05-2009, 09:11 AM
When the next Linnehan shows up and murders a franchise, and Cowher or Shanahan or another vet make a competitor, owner's priorities will shift once again.

Perhaps. Bill Simmons made a strong case for the move to younger head coaches a couple of years ago. Good read, check it out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070112

skpac1001
05-05-2009, 09:44 AM
no, its that your point overall just sucks....

who was available? Spags? Another one who doesnt have head coaching experience. THe defensive Coordinator from the Bucs (Davis?) didnt have any either and they were the ones at the top of the list.

If we would have hired either of them you would be b****ing too

but hey, Herm is out there...he's got experience....or how about Mike Ditka? I'm sure he would have loved Cutler's routine and he's got experience...

Well apparently my wonderful posting style has made a mess out of things again, I guess I did deserve that grade in English. I am not b****ing about McDaniels, I like 90% of his moves so far and am willing to let him prove himself on the others on the field this season. My point with the HC with no successful HC background can still be a smart hire comment was that McDaniels also fits that mold. I will take a chance on a smart, hardworking guy who has mentored under the best (I know, I know, CHEATER!) and has been successful as OC despite adversity (qb, rb injuries) but has no experience at HC over someone who has already had a shot and failed. There are exceptions, but no good ones appeared available this year IMO.