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View Full Version : OK, let's stir the pot. Would you trade #18 for...


cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 06:15 AM
Julius Peppers.

Ok, before you get upset, I will redirect you to Montrose's excellent post breaking down Nolan's 3-4.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=76570&highlight=3-4

Also, remember that Nolan used Justin Smith as his "joker" position that lined up all over the field and was the huge "disruptor" on the line. To be an effective "joker" on the D-line, you have to be a special athlete. Sometimes you are a D-tackle, sometimes an End, sometimes a pass rushing LB, sometimes in coverage. Can you think of anyone that would be better than Peppers?

The Pats paid up for Adalius Thomas, don't you think they might consider Peppers if they could get him for a single #18 pick?

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 06:23 AM
i would be open to it...but i wouldn't recommend it...

too much salary...

if the panthers are willing to come off the 1st round pick demands...

i'd rather give our 2nd, and our 2nd third round picks if possible...

Beantown Bronco
04-22-2009, 06:25 AM
The 18? No.

But I would consider trading down from 18 to somewhere in the early second round (with either a third coming back this season or a future 1st or 2nd coming back to us depeding on how far we dropped into the 2nd this year) and then using THAT pick on Peppers.

Bronco Boy
04-22-2009, 06:27 AM
I would rather take a chance at Everette Brown in that position.

Falconer
04-22-2009, 06:28 AM
It's not the 18th pick that I have a problem with, it's the huge salary that is going to be demanded that I don't like. Maybe if we were one or two players away from a dominant defense it would make sense, but I think we are a lot farther away from that.

Rock Chalk
04-22-2009, 06:39 AM
Big time players demand big time money. But I do agree with Falconer, we are too far away for Peppers.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 06:47 AM
OK, let's stir the pot. Would you trade #18 for... Julius Peppers?



if we're going to stir the pot...let's talk about Shaun Rogers...

i'd much prefer we trade for him...weeks ago i heard he was available for the right price...his salary is big too, but he won't command as much salary or trade compensation as Julius Peppers...

plus Cleveland picks #5 where they could draft Raji as his replacement...

a 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder for Rogers...

that would be sweet music to my ears if i heard that announced...

meangene
04-22-2009, 07:19 AM
No to Peppers. He is still a projection in the 3-4. Seems to have all the measurables but, for that kind of money, I would want a sure thing. Also, he has not even signed his tender meaning no team can talk trade with Carolina or explore contract terms with Peppers. Seems like he wants to wait til the last minute, sign the tender, and then hold a team hostage over the contract once the trade is done. Great a player as he is, I question whether he is really a team guy.

Ambiguous
04-22-2009, 07:22 AM
It's not the 18th pick that I have a problem with, it's the huge salary that is going to be demanded that I don't like. Maybe if we were one or two players away from a dominant defense it would make sense, but I think we are a lot farther away from that.

Exactly, it's time to build. It would be worth it for a team that had a decent D last year though.

Hamrob
04-22-2009, 07:23 AM
Jay Cutler. Do you think there's anyway we could pull a trade for the player?

Maybe if we gave the Bears 3 1's, 3 2's a 3 and Kyle Orton?

Hotrod
04-22-2009, 07:42 AM
In a word Yes on Peppers for #18

BMarsh615
04-22-2009, 07:49 AM
No, Peppers is 30 years old now. I would much rather give Doom a shot.

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 07:52 AM
No to Peppers. He is still a projection in the 3-4. Seems to have all the measurables but, for that kind of money, I would want a sure thing. Also, he has not even signed his tender meaning no team can talk trade with Carolina or explore contract terms with Peppers. Seems like he wants to wait til the last minute, sign the tender, and then hold a team hostage over the contract once the trade is done. Great a player as he is, I question whether he is really a team guy.

I think he hasn't signed his tender so he's more tradeable.

It means that a new contract can be worked out, and the draft picks are still negotiable.

I bring up Peppers because of the position that Justin Smith played in Nolan's defense. It takes a beast to do it well, and Peppers can be a top three layer in the league at his position.

I'm not married to the idea, but if the D-line is the real problem, he could definitely give us instant respect there.

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 07:53 AM
No, Peppers is 30 years old now. I would much rather give Doom a shot.

Different positions here. Doom still plays. Nolan's "joker" position is not the WOLB (from what others have said).

meangene
04-22-2009, 07:57 AM
I think he hasn't signed his tender so he's more tradeable.

It means that a new contract can be worked out, and the draft picks are still negotiable.

I bring up Peppers because of the position that Justin Smith played in Nolan's defense. It takes a beast to do it well, and Peppers can be a top three layer in the league at his position.

I'm not married to the idea, but if the D-line is the real problem, he could definitely give us instant respect there.

He really isn't more tradeable because no one can negotiate with Carolina on a trade or discuss a contract with Peppers agent until he signs the tender. That is part of what brought negotiations with the Pats to a halt. Kind of a strange situation.

BMarsh615
04-22-2009, 08:05 AM
Different positions here. Doom still plays. Nolan's "joker" position is not the WOLB (from what others have said).

I read that post a while ago isn't the "joker" position just a guy who blitzes 99.9% of the time? I think that would fit Doom perfectly because pass rushing is pretty much all he does well.

lex
04-22-2009, 08:11 AM
Exactly, it's time to build. It would be worth it for a team that had a decent D last year though.

No rebuilding. The team was on the ascent with a lot of good players the Goodmans acquired. Cutler is gone but the burden remains what it was. You dont get a pass for a problem that was of your own making.

lex
04-22-2009, 08:13 AM
I read that post a while ago isn't the "joker" position just a guy who blitzes 99.9% of the time? I think that would fit Doom perfectly because pass rushing is pretty much all he does well.


We dont know thats all he does well. But Im actually intrigued to see Doom as a LB. I think the 4 pt stance wasnt really well suited to him. His build is not too unlike Harrison of Pittsburgh.

lex
04-22-2009, 08:15 AM
He really isn't more tradeable because no one can negotiate with Carolina on a trade or discuss a contract with Peppers agent until he signs the tender. That is part of what brought negotiations with the Pats to a halt. Kind of a strange situation.

I wonder if Peppers is just not signing to spite Carolina? They franchise him thinking theyre going to get good picks out of him but the salary makes it hard to trade him. Carolina is hedging its bets but Peppers doesnt seem to care about Carolina looking out for Carolina.

gyldenlove
04-22-2009, 08:31 AM
No. His contract will be too big, he is an unknown in the 3-4 and I don't think it makes sense to spend that much on a LB when our DL is so poor.

USMCBladerunner
04-22-2009, 08:37 AM
no one can even talk to the Panthers about Pepper's until he signs his tender...once that happens, the starting point 1st season money for Pepper's is over 16 million...

It just seems like a very risky move from the perspective of money. If he was willing to play for less than blockbuster cash, he's be under a long term contract in Carolina right now. I'd bet he's looking for Haynesworth money or very close to it. That's too much for a team with as many needs as the Broncos have.

oubronco
04-22-2009, 08:38 AM
Hell No !!!!!

anon
04-22-2009, 08:42 AM
Unfortunately, only half the team was on the "ascent" and even then we were still in the middle bottom half of the slope, not near the top. The "burden" is not rebuilding the mediocre scoring offense, but building a championship defense. Realistically, we are not that much further away (or closer) from being a championship team before or after the new coach, regardless of where you stand in regards to "the player".

No rebuilding. The team was on the ascent with a lot of good players the Goodmans acquired. Cutler is gone but the burden remains what it was. You dont get a pass for a problem that was of your own making.

Broncoman13
04-22-2009, 08:43 AM
Hell Yes!

lex
04-22-2009, 08:49 AM
Unfortunately, only half the team was on the "ascent" and even then we were still in the middle bottom half of the slope, not near the top. The "burden" is not rebuilding the mediocre scoring offense, but building a championship defense. Realistically, we are not that much further away (or closer) from being a championship team before or after the new coach, regardless of where you stand in regards to "the player".


Like I said, codewords like "realistically" became garbage when they lost Cutler. Regardless of what you think of the rest of the team, youll have a hard time convincing many that there werent a lot of young guys who have shown some promise when given the chance. Also, just not seeing the 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 is enough of a reason not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Again, the team should be no worse than 9-7 this year. Its not acceptable otherwise.

anon
04-22-2009, 08:49 AM
Build from the draft and resign your own performers. I can't remember the last time a "big name" free agent signing lived up to expectations. It's hilarious to think that a team in such desperate need of D-Line help for years let Berry, Hayward, and Pryce on our D-Line -- maybe they underachieved for the contracts they ended up signing but they're better than what we've been fielding.

In any case, the expectation that one star will carry a below average D-Line is flawed, similar to when Shanny signed Pryce to the nice contract, put crap around him, and then expected the defense to instantly be awesome. The great defenses in the NFL have multiple solid starters across the positions.

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 08:51 AM
For those who have just plain forgotten how good Peppers is, and whether he could play WOLB, SOLB, DE, or "Joker" - just remind yourselves by watching the video.

The dude stuffs the run, can rush the passer, drop back into coverage, make INT's - everything you would want from the D-line?LB corps in one dangerous player.

Here he is:

<a href="http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=520977">Julius Peppers...E-nuff said</a><br/><object width="425px" height="360px" ><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent"/><param name="movie" value="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=520977,t=1,mt=video,searchID=,primarycolor=,seco ndarycolor="/><embed src="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=520977,t=1,mt=video,searchID=,primarycolor=,seco ndarycolor=" width="425" height="360" allowFullScreen="true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"/></object>

Bronco Boy
04-22-2009, 08:57 AM
Right, lets just judge players based on their highlight reels. Worked great with Boss Bailey.

anon
04-22-2009, 08:57 AM
"Realistically" is a code word for "let's lower our expectations and give the new coach a pass this year" as much as "on the ascent" is a code phrase for "let's falsely imply that this team was on the cusp of championship contention."

I agree that "a lot of young guys have shown some promise", but I don't see how that translates into a championship defense, or do you really believe that if we started Larsen, Woodyard, and Barrett -- that our defense would suddenly jump in the rankings -- though I will say that even with the exact same players, I would expect to see improvement on defense just because this new coaching staff actually cares about defense.

If you're going to blame the new regime for alienating Cutler, you also have to give them credit for taking the defensive side of the ball seriously (at least I am hoping that is the case, we shall see in the draft).


Like I said, codewords like "realistically" became garbage when they lost Cutler. Regardless of what you think of the rest of the team, youll have a hard time convincing many that there werent a lot of young guys who have shown some promise when given the chance. Also, just not seeing the 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 is enough of a reason not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Again, the team should be no worse than 9-7 this year. Its not acceptable otherwise.

Miss I.
04-22-2009, 09:00 AM
didn't know if this was posted, but here's an article on Pepper's situation with the Panthers: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9239310/Panthers-pay-Gross-big-money,-franchise-Peppers

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 09:04 AM
Right, lets just judge players based on their highlight reels. Worked great with Boss Bailey.

You're a dork.

We judge players based on their performance, including Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Albert haynesworth, John Elway, Barry Sanders, or (fill in the blank).

How else do you propose to judge a player if it isn't by actual performance, do you want his career stats?

Season Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
2002 Carolina 12 29 7 36 12.0 78 1 21 0 0 5 6 0
2003 Carolina 16 39 7 46 7.0 39 0 0 0 0 3 3 0
2004 Carolina 16 53 12 65 11.0 71 2 143 1 2 4 9 0
2005 Carolina 16 38 12 50 10.5 62 0 0 0 0 2 7 0
2006 Carolina 16 49 9 58 13.0 89 0 0 0 0 3 6 0
2007 Carolina 14 30 8 38 2.5 23 1 0 0 0 3 5 0
2008 Carolina 16 40 11 51 14.5 83 0 0 0 0 5 5 0
Career 106 278 66 344 70.5 444 4 164 1 2 25 41 0


How about 70.5 sacks and 25 forced fumbles? Is that a way to judge a player (if the actual video footage of him playing doesn't count?).

Swedish Extrovert
04-22-2009, 09:05 AM
We need a dominant d-lineman, but Peppers is too old and too expensive.

NFLBRONCO
04-22-2009, 09:05 AM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'd rather give our FO a shot at drafting DL they can't do any worse then Shanny era its cheaper too.

lex
04-22-2009, 09:13 AM
"Realistically" is a code word for "let's lower our expectations and give the new coach a pass this year" as much as "on the ascent" is a code phrase for "let's falsely imply that this team was on the cusp of championship contention."
I agree that "a lot of young guys have shown some promise", but I don't see how that translates into a championship defense, or do you really believe that if we started Larsen, Woodyard, and Barrett -- that our defense would suddenly jump in the rankings -- though I will say that even with the exact same players, I would expect to see improvement on defense just because this new coaching staff actually cares about defense.

If you're going to blame the new regime for alienating Cutler, you also have to give them credit for taking the defensive side of the ball seriously (at least I am hoping that is the case, we shall see in the draft).

No, on the ascent is code word for "we finally have a guy with an eye for talent and we give his guys a chance while letting him add more guys". Nowhere was I implying that we are what youre saying.

Bronco Boy
04-22-2009, 09:17 AM
You're a dork.

We judge players based on their performance, including Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Albert haynesworth, John Elway, Barry Sanders, or (fill in the blank).

How else do you propose to judge a player if it isn't by actual performance, do you want his career stats?

Season Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
2002 Carolina 12 29 7 36 12.0 78 1 21 0 0 5 6 0
2003 Carolina 16 39 7 46 7.0 39 0 0 0 0 3 3 0
2004 Carolina 16 53 12 65 11.0 71 2 143 1 2 4 9 0
2005 Carolina 16 38 12 50 10.5 62 0 0 0 0 2 7 0
2006 Carolina 16 49 9 58 13.0 89 0 0 0 0 3 6 0
2007 Carolina 14 30 8 38 2.5 23 1 0 0 0 3 5 0
2008 Carolina 16 40 11 51 14.5 83 0 0 0 0 5 5 0
Career 106 278 66 344 70.5 444 4 164 1 2 25 41 0


How about 70.5 sacks and 25 forced fumbles? Is that a way to judge a player (if the actual video footage of him playing doesn't count?).

Well, yes that is one way to judge a player, but probably not a very good one. How do you know that his best years aren't behind him?

OBF1
04-22-2009, 09:17 AM
No way Jose. Waaaaaaaay too much money

rugbythug
04-22-2009, 09:23 AM
Lets send it to the Patriots for Vince Wilfork.

Finger Roll
04-22-2009, 09:48 AM
he's old as fvck

cmhargrove
04-22-2009, 09:50 AM
Well, yes that is one way to judge a player, but probably not a very good one. How do you know that his best years aren't behind him?

Sorry about the "dork" thing, i had too much coffee.

You are very correct, it's not guarantee of future performance. Same with Haynesworth, same with Suggs, Same with Ray Lewis, even Adalius Thomas.

It's no guarantee of performance, all of that is a crap shoot in the long run. But, Peppers is a top three player when hitting on all cylinders. That kind of player on our weakest spot (d-line) is worth paying for IMO.

Garcia Bronco
04-22-2009, 09:53 AM
I would considering this is weak draft.

Julius Peppers succeeds at everything he does athletically. There is no reason to think he couldn't be effective in a 3-4 like he is in a 4-3.

DrFate
04-22-2009, 10:31 AM
I would considering this is weak draft.

Julius Peppers succeeds at everything he does athletically. There is no reason to think he couldn't be effective in a 3-4 like he is in a 4-3.

True - but what about the monster contract demands vs. his age?

BroncoMan4ever
04-22-2009, 11:11 AM
Julius Peppers.

Ok, before you get upset, I will redirect you to Montrose's excellent post breaking down Nolan's 3-4.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=76570&highlight=3-4

Also, remember that Nolan used Justin Smith as his "joker" position that lined up all over the field and was the huge "disruptor" on the line. To be an effective "joker" on the D-line, you have to be a special athlete. Sometimes you are a D-tackle, sometimes an End, sometimes a pass rushing LB, sometimes in coverage. Can you think of anyone that would be better than Peppers?

The Pats paid up for Adalius Thomas, don't you think they might consider Peppers if they could get him for a single #18 pick?

HELL NO!!!

i wouldn't trade a mid round pick for Peppers.

he isn't worth the money he is going to want. also, we already have DEs trying to make the move to OLB, why bring in another project? especially when the new project will only come with a mega deal.

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 11:12 AM
No. Too old and a cap-killer deal.

Three years ago I wouldda jumped ....

Garcia Bronco
04-22-2009, 11:22 AM
True - but what about the monster contract demands vs. his age?

Well...that's part of what you work out before executing the trade. He's 29 and should have 5-6 years left.

iforgotmypassword
04-22-2009, 12:05 PM
let's take a look at the 18th overall picks in the last 10 years

08 - Flacco
07 - Leon Hall
06 - Bobby Carpenter
05 - Erasmus James
04 - Will Smith
03 - Calvin Pace
02 - TJ Ducket
01 - Jeff Baucus
00 - Chad Pennington
99 - Matt Stinchcomb

I see about four average players here and the rest nothin too specail..... granted it's the wednesday before draft don't get too excited about us findin the next bronco hall of famer at 18

18 for peppers? sure, try to get a fourthish back from carolina