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View Full Version : Carlton Powell vs. Tyson Jackson?


footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?

Paladin
04-21-2009, 10:26 PM
I see nothing wrong with having 3 300 pound DEs. It would be a very good and welcomed change from last year.

TheChamp24
04-21-2009, 10:28 PM
Assuming Powell is decent, what about after him and Thomas? Who do we have?
Depth of good players on the DL is a strength, not a bad thing.

ward63
04-21-2009, 10:31 PM
Jackson is a proven 3-4 DE, we really don't have any except for maybe Peterson

skpac1001
04-21-2009, 10:32 PM
Also if we get a starter at NT in the draft then Fields can play DE like he did in SF.

Popps
04-21-2009, 10:34 PM
I really like what I read about Powell but we obviously have no idea if it'll translate to the NFL.

I think Jackson is my favorite pick, at this point. (for 12) If he's there, I think he's a guy who could step right in and play. The guy looks like an NFL player, already. Size-wise, he looks more developed than other guys... and obviously shows his athleticism on the field.

In the 3-4, he doesn't need to be an elite pass-rusher. (He's not.) But, he won't get pushed around. He's played against good talent in school and just looks like a pro, to me.

I do think we may have a nice 3-4 sleeper DE in Thomas and/or Powell, but we shouldn't pass up on Jackson if he's there.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Here's a game by game breakdown on Jackson's last season at LSU and some scouting comments: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155

I'm not that impressed with him based on what I've been reading on this guy. He doesn't seem like a first round pick, let alone a top 10 guy. He had a considerable size advantage over his opponent in many of these games and was not that productive. I know stats for D-line guys are decieving but his overall analysis and combine results are suspect. He's 300 pounds and he repped a 20 in the BP? That's pretty poor for a lineman. I don't see the attraction here for a guy sesen as a top 10 pick.

BroncoMan4ever
04-21-2009, 10:36 PM
i still think we should take him. if the Giants have shown anything, it is you can never have enough good DL players.

also, considering we will be using a rotation keeping everyone on the line at playing only about 50% of the snaps, it makes sense to have a solid backup group of lineman behind the starters.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 10:38 PM
Assuming Powell is decent, what about after him and Thomas? Who do we have?
Depth of good players on the DL is a strength, not a bad thing.
True...but normally you don't spend the 12th pick in the draft on a guy who is depth. What strikes me is that the expectations for this guy and Powell seem reversed if you just look at their production in college.

Popps
04-21-2009, 10:39 PM
Here's a game by game breakdown on Jackson's last season at LSU and some scouting comments: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155

I'm not that impressed with him based on what I've been reading on this guy. He doesn't seem like a first round pick, let alone a top 10 guy. He had a considerable size advantage over his opponent in many of these games and was not that productive. I know stats for D-line guys are decieving but his overall analysis and combine results are suspect. He's 300 pounds and he repped a 20 in the BP? That's pretty poor for a lineman. I don't see the attraction here for a guy sesen as a top 10 pick.

He seems to be more of a leverage guy than a brute strength guy. He's just built big, with long arms and a lot of bulk.

The only thing that worries me a bit is that there have been some questions regarding his overall effort on the field. That's a very common scouting report negative for linemen, but still worth noting.

wolf754life
04-21-2009, 10:42 PM
tyson jackson doesn't get pushed around, he stalemates people, he holds the line, he frees up backers, protects the edge................you know, good fundamental run defense...........

footsteps is funny, you sir are looking for flash...............

give me substance......and lots of it...

epicSocialism4tw
04-21-2009, 10:46 PM
I say load up the defense. Particularly the front seven. Then let the chips fall where they may.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 11:10 PM
tyson jackson doesn't get pushed around, he stalemates people, he holds the line, he frees up backers, protects the edge................you know, good fundamental run defense...........

footsteps is funny, you sir are looking for flash...............

give me substance......and lots of it...
I'm not sure what you mean by flash, but here's something of substance to consider. Line up Carlton Powell's scouting report next to that of Jackson's and when you finish reading them you'll wonder if they got mixed up. Powell looks like the first rounder and Jackson the 5th rounder. I'm not seeing anything in Jackson that I can't live without. He looks like just another guy, albeit...one capable of playing the 3-4 DE spot in a year when the talent is thin there. Powell, by contrast, was a top 10 ranked DT in a year with a strong D-line draft.

If Shanny's draft issues taught us anything, it should be that reaching for guys in the first round is a bad idea. We reached for Moss...reached for Foster...Middlebrooks...why do I bring this up in the current regime? Because as I understand the scouting department...not the FO decision guys but the actual scouts watching players...they're the same guys we've had there in the past. This is at least an issue to consider when wondering how we're likely to fare with player evaluations on D-line guys at the top of the draft.

UberBroncoMan
04-21-2009, 11:35 PM
To be honest I see Powell as a NT for us and competing with Ron Fields more than I see him as a DE. We want a run stuffer who holds his ground and takes up multiple gaps at NT, and that seems to be what Powell excels at.

I wouldn't mind drafting two 3-4 DE's in this draft... namely Jackson and Jerron Gilbert.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 11:39 PM
To be honest I see Powell as a NT for us and competing with Ron Fields more than I see him as a DE. We want a run stuffer who holds his ground and takes up multiple gaps at NT, and that seems to be what Powell excels at.

I wouldn't mind drafting two 3-4 DE's in this draft... namely Jackson and Jerron Gilbert.
Powell's about 305. He'd need to put on some serious weight, don't you think?

azbroncfan
04-21-2009, 11:46 PM
Just because a guy weighs in the 290-310 lb range mean they can play DE in a 3-4. Their skillset has to be capable of playing in the 1 gap or 2 gap scheme depending on what the team is going to run.

bap454
04-21-2009, 11:46 PM
If Raji doesnt fall to twelve......then I have no problem waiting to draft a couple of big uglies in the mid rounds. Im on the fence with Tyson Jackson. I think he would fill the spot from day one... but nothing all pro that warrants a #12 pick. Rather we go safety, LB,or even RB with the first 2 picks.

bap454
04-21-2009, 11:53 PM
.... On second thought... Im not so sure were we stand on depth. I no Engleberger is gone (thankfully), how about Ekuban... is he still on the roster? Last I remember he was visiting the Faiders during free agency.

T. Jackson might have to be the pick.

s0phr0syne
04-22-2009, 12:00 AM
Jackson is a proven 3-4 DE, we really don't have any except for maybe Peterson



Is he really a proven 3-4 DE? Jackson is being projected from college DT to NFL 3-4 DE, he's not a proven commodity at all...he could just as easily bust.

I'm not against picking him, but don't use the logic that we need him because he's a proven 3-4DE...come September, he can bust just the same as any of the other rookies. No one is a proven player in the NFL yet.

lex
04-22-2009, 12:49 AM
Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?

This is a good question and it can also be applied to linebacker where we have Dumervile/Moss/Crowder as candidates to play rush LB and then Larsen possibly on the inside. I think they may look at it like having another good DL is not overkill. 1) Theyll rotate players and 2) they might look at drafting a guy as hedging their bets. At the same time what youve identified might give them the flexibility to take a different position. When you look at a lot of FA signings, a lot of them were good but not great but at the same time they will be guys who create competition.

Hulamau
04-22-2009, 01:16 AM
I really like what I read about Powell but we obviously have no idea if it'll translate to the NFL.

I think Jackson is my favorite pick, at this point. (for 12) If he's there, I think he's a guy who could step right in and play. The guy looks like an NFL player, already. Size-wise, he looks more developed than other guys... and obviously shows his athleticism on the field.

In the 3-4, he doesn't need to be an elite pass-rusher. (He's not.) But, he won't get pushed around. He's played against good talent in school and just looks like a pro, to me.
or some toehr decent NT
I do think we may have a nice 3-4 sleeper DE in Thomas and/or Powell, but we shouldn't pass up on Jackson if he's there.

I like Jackson too, If Raji or Orakpo doesn't somehow drop in our lap. I also think this is the year Thomas really dominates as he is meant for this role and hes no longer in the musical chairs defense of the past two years and has had a coup0le yeeras now to mature as a Dlineman.

Powell too could be a stud. His work this is reportedly top flight and he has a constant motor and can both disruptive in the backfield but is killer at stopping the run.

If Raji isn't there at 12 which is unlikely I can see going for OLB/DE type the first two picks and then go for Brace, or some other potential decent 3-4 NT in the second or third round.

Assuming that is that Sanchez didn't perform like the second coming at his private work out and/or that a RB isn't in the mix on day one.

Frankly I think a number of our existing younger guys are going to look a lot better this year than the past two with more time in the league, more consistency and better coaching all around.

lex
04-22-2009, 01:29 AM
Heres some footage of Powell in college. He makes a lot of plays off of two blocks. Not sure that spin move will be that effective though.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/nfl-draft/NFL-Draft-Carlton-Powell-Highlights-407

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 05:53 AM
Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?


it's risky to put our primary hopes on a young player fresh from IR and a young 4-3 DT in which neither have played at the pro level as a 3-4 end...

if Jackson is available, i say add him to the mix...we will need to rotate linemen anyway...

TonyR
04-22-2009, 06:02 AM
But what about Carlton Powell?

More than likely he got drafted in the 5th round for a reason. If he turns into a solid contributor great but you don't pass up top tier D-line talent in this draft expecting 5th round talent to come back from an Achilles and be a starter for you.

Man-Goblin
04-22-2009, 06:10 AM
Personally, I wouldn't find having three competent DEs a problem. We don't even know if we have one, yet.

Bronco Boy
04-22-2009, 06:19 AM
I heard Powell is up to 325 and is going to be playing mostly NT.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 06:27 AM
I heard Powell is up to 325 and is going to be playing mostly NT.

link?...

Bronco Boy
04-22-2009, 06:34 AM
I don't have anything to back that up, just a rumor I heard.

TheDave
04-22-2009, 08:03 AM
First let me start by saying that i am assuming we are moving towards a "Fairbanks - Bullough" 3-4 that all Bellicheck & Parcels teams run...

With that in mind our D-Line and their ability to control the line of scrimage is everything. Up till now our team always choose lighter quicker single gap players for the front 4. Both DE's in this system hate to be disciplined 2 gap type of players or the entire scheme breaks down. I have no idea if any of the players currentely on the roster are able to play this defense. With that in mind I don't care how many draft picks they throw at our d-line this year. Until we have the right guys who can do the dirty work up front nothing else behind them will matter.

So if Jackson is sitting there @ #12... I take him.

lex
04-22-2009, 08:06 AM
First let me start by saying that i am assuming we are moving towards a "Fairbanks - Bullough" 3-4 that all Bellicheck & Parcels teams run...

With that in mind our D-Line and their ability to control the line of scrimage is everything. Up till now our team always choose lighter quicker single gap players for the front 4. Both DE's in this system hate to be disciplined 2 gap type of players or the entire scheme breaks down. I have no idea if any of the players currentely on the roster are able to play this defense. With that in mind I don't care how many draft picks they throw at our d-line this year. Until we have the right guys who can do the dirty work up front nothing else behind them will matter.

So if Jackson is sitting there @ #12... I take him.


LSU runs a 4-3, no?

TheDave
04-22-2009, 08:11 AM
LSU runs a 4-3, no?

They ran a 3-4 for Jacksons Fresh and/or Soph year... Regardless everytrhing I have read on the kid says that he excels at stacking & shedding, setting the edge, and that he is a prototypical 5 tech.

IMO we can't have enough of those types.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 09:16 AM
This is an interesting discussion, but it really shows the fallacy of internet boards and looking at talent. I'll bet not many people here have actually watched most of these guys we are talking about play. IF you had, then this would not be as out there as Footsteps has made it.

1. DEN has zero proven DL on the roster as witnessed by the last 2 years actual performance and production on the field. DEN has one of the 3 worst DL personnel packages in the league currently, but all these guys physically fit the mold for said scheme, or could be better with better coaching and utilization, or just need to develop, etc. You can not deal in maybe's in the NFL. You HAVE to have players on defense, especially on the DL.

2. That being said, Tyson Jackson's skillset lends itslef to playing a 3-4 5 technique DE because that is almost the exact same position he played for LSU even though they used a 4-3 front. He played LDE and his gap responsibility was almost identical to that of a 3-4 DE. He was one of if not the best at taking on Double teams when he set the edge in college. That is a very transferable skillset. Also, he has EXTRA value as a pass rusher from the DT in 4-3 sets like the Nickle or other pass stopping fronts. Therefore, he has value as a run stuffing 2 gap 3-4 DE and as a pass rusher on third down's. That makes him a complete everydown DL. Something DEN does not have at all and has not since Trevor Pryce in 2003.

3. Carlton Powell is an exceptional run stuffing DT, who has very little inside pass rush for a team as adept as VATech. He was the recipient of a lot of help to stop in that scheme, but he did excel in doing it all four years there. That is why he was a initial 5th round value. He was a 4-3 NT run stuffer, with little pass rush or 2 gap value coming out. His limited skillset, albeit a very good one, made him worth much less than say Tyson Jackson coming out this year.

4. College Production has to be taken in context. Great defenses who do not stay on the field will have less productive players in some cases based on the scheme they use. Look at Glenn Dorsey and other LSU DL the last few years, their college production does not match other Elite prospects. While VAtech's DL have been better in college than the Pros. You have to take that into acount.

5. Finally, the DL who were not that good to begin in systems they were more built to play, are now all switching to a new scheme where they just might struggle to pick up the mental side of things. The last 2 years the DL were f'ing awful at reading keys and diagnosing plays. Just look at the lack of TFL's and stops for no gain, low sack production, low QB hurries, and playmaking from the DL. It was AWFUL, and mostly mental. Now, you ask these same mental midgets to learn a new language and system, read different keys, take new angles and techniques, and play vastly different roles on the defense. How can you EXPECT poor mentally tough players to do anything in those circumstances?

That is why you draft a player like Tyson Jackson @ 12 even though he is not a sack master. He does his job so the players behind him can make plays. He makes the Defense better. That is why NE took players like Richard Seymour and Ty Warren high. That make the foundation solid to let the defense run and be flexible and variable.

lex
04-22-2009, 09:25 AM
They ran a 3-4 for Jacksons Fresh and/or Soph year... Regardless everytrhing I have read on the kid says that he excels at stacking & shedding, setting the edge, and that he is a prototypical 5 tech.

IMO we can't have enough of those types.

If you are just looking for that, do you really need to take Jackson at 12? Is he really better than some other guys at stacking and shedding if thats what your focus is?

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 09:29 AM
2. That being said, Tyson Jackson's skillset lends itslef to playing a 3-4 5 technique DE because that is almost the exact same position he played for LSU even though they used a 4-3 front. He played LDE and his gap responsibility was almost identical to that of a 3-4 DE. He was one of if not the best at taking on Double teams when he set the edge in college. That is a very transferable skillset. Also, he has EXTRA value as a pass rusher from the DT in 4-3 sets like the Nickle or other pass stopping fronts. Therefore, he has value as a run stuffing 2 gap 3-4 DE and as a pass rusher on third down's. That makes him a complete everydown DL. Something DEN does not have at all and has not since Trevor Pryce in 2003.


That is why you draft a player like Tyson Jackson @ 12 even though he is not a sack master. He does his job so the players behind him can make plays. He makes the Defense better.


sold...

TheDave
04-22-2009, 09:29 AM
If you are just looking for that, do you really need to take Jackson at 12? Is he really better than some other guys at stacking and shedding if thats what your focus is?

IMO and that of most draft sites he is exactly what we need to play DE... So yes I would take him at 12.

On top of that we need more than 1 so if there are others available later in the draft I would take them also. Like I said before we don't have anyone on this team that has proven they can play the position.

lex
04-22-2009, 09:41 AM
IMO and that of most draft sites he is exactly what we need to play DE... So yes I would take him at 12.

On top of that we need more than 1 so if there are others available later in the draft I would take them also. Like I said before we don't have anyone on this team that has proven they can play the position.

Thats not what I asked. Maybe we should use every pick on some guy who is "good at stacking and shedding", no?

TheDave
04-22-2009, 09:45 AM
Thats not what I asked. Maybe we should use every pick on some guy who is "good at stacking and shedding", no?

I never said that is all he was good at... He is considered a prototypical 3-4 end. We need several 3-4 ends. I take him at 12.

lex
04-22-2009, 09:47 AM
I never said that is all he was good at... He is considered a prototypical 3-4 end. We need several 3-4 ends. I take him at 12.

Ok, so you think he can rush the passer?

TonyR
04-22-2009, 09:49 AM
...That is why NE took players like Richard Seymour and Ty Warren high...

Careful, you'll upset the Patriotophobes with such solid, real world examples.

TheDave
04-22-2009, 09:52 AM
Ok, so you think he can rush the passer?

From the LDE position I think that is he is average at best as a pure pass rusher.

But if we are running a hybrid 3-4 / 4-3 I think he offers significant value as a pass rusher when kicked inside in a 4-3 alignment..

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 09:55 AM
Ok, so you think he can rush the passer?

From the inside in nickle and pass rush situations, yes he can. He is just not a speed edge rusher. Those guys will now play OLB in DEN.

AGAIN, this is the kind of guy you build a 3-4 DL foundation so the rest of the team gets better immediately. He brings total value @ 12 that no other Player in this draft does, including BJ RAJI who scares the crap out of me for all kinds of reasons.

RocBronc
04-22-2009, 09:58 AM
I take Jackson at 18... He fills a need and he's a great fit for our defense but I just don't think he's a good value at 12.

TheDave
04-22-2009, 10:00 AM
I take Jackson at 18... He fills a need and he's a great fit for our defense but I just don't think he's a good value at 12.

I'm not convinced he'll be there at 12... no way @ 18.

Unfortunately there are a number of teams converting to a 3-4 this year.

TheDave
04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
From the inside in nickle and pass rush situations, yes he can. He is just not a speed edge rusher. Those guys will now play OLB in DEN.

AGAIN, this is the kind of guy you build a 3-4 DL foundation so the rest of the team gets better immediately. He brings total value @ 12 that no other Player in this draft does, including BJ RAJI who scares the crap out of me for all kinds of reasons.

From everything I've seen Raji will be gone long before our pick... and probably to a 4-3 team.

I just don't think he is a true NT. When watching some of his tape (mostly highlights) his team mate Brace took most of the double teams.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 10:04 AM
Value is very subjective. In this case, a prototypical 3-4 5 Technique DE has a lot more value than ever as there are not many in this draft and there are a ton of teams looking to upgrade that position with a guy with his talent.

Value is where a team will pick a player, not how they grade overall. Some players will drop or be reached on for scheme fits. This guy will be picked much higher than most people think IMHO. It's just the difference in talent between him and the next guy on the board.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 10:06 AM
From everything I've seen Raji will be gone long before our pick... and probably to a 4-3 team.

I just don't think he is a true NT. When watching some of his tape (mostly highlights) his team mate Brace took most of the double teams.

I am not sure he eats himself out of the league and quick. He had weight and intelligence issues at BC that cost him a whole year of eligibility. I think this was his patented "try hard year" like Travis Johnson had for FSU a few years back. What is he doing in HOU now? Waiting to get replaced ;D

TheDave
04-22-2009, 10:16 AM
FWIW... The National Football Post rated their top 5 Tech DE's as follows.

Five-Technique Defensive Ends (3-4 Defensive Ends)

Jarron Gilbert, San Jose State (6-5, 287)
Tyson Jackson, LSU (6-4, 295)
Kyle Moore, USC (6-5, 265)
Zach Potter, Nebraska (6-7, 277)
Jeremy Navarre, Maryland (6-3, 285)http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/02/nfp-specialized-position-rankings/

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 10:30 AM
FWIW... The National Football Post rated their top 5 Tech DE's as follows.

Five-Technique Defensive Ends (3-4 Defensive Ends)

Jarron Gilbert, San Jose State (6-5, 287)
Tyson Jackson, LSU (6-4, 295)
Kyle Moore, USC (6-5, 265)
Zach Potter, Nebraska (6-7, 277)
Jeremy Navarre, Maryland (6-3, 285)http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/02/nfp-specialized-position-rankings/

That Jarron Gilbert pick is a farce. Talk about a guy who is all potential and no conistency versus a lower level of competition and this guys face pops up at the definition. Gilbert had mental issues playing motivated at SJSU, when is he going to actually try?

TheChamp24
04-22-2009, 10:39 AM
Tyson Jackson has amazing value, and he is rumored to go in the top 10 btw.
3-4 DE's don't get the sexy stats and aren't vital in their ability to rush the passer.
Jackson would be an immediate starter, and based on previous experience, will develop into a very solid starting DE for us in the 3-4.