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View Full Version : We're OK at Linebacker ... Disagree, then who you gonna cut?


BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:00 PM
This is a challenge thread ... don't avoid the main question please.

Lots of gusy here are talking Maualuga, Everette Brown, Larry English, Lauranitis, even Cushing, but my take is that we're pretty well set at LB.

Here's the depth chart:

Elvis Dumervil + DJ Williams + Andra Davis + Darrell Reid ... Starters, W to S
Jarvis Moss + Wesley Woodyard + Spencer Larsen + Boss Bailey/Louis Green ... Backups, W to S

That's 8 ... plus Boss Bailey/Louis Green, Tim Crowder and Mario Haggans


So if you want to draft a LB, who you gonna cut? And don't just say "Boss Bailey," that's too easy, too fashionable.

Gcver2ver3
04-21-2009, 02:01 PM
Boss Bailey...

Rohirrim
04-21-2009, 02:03 PM
Have you thought of draft day trades? STs? Cuts? Spencer, Boss, Jarvis, Green.

bronco militia
04-21-2009, 02:04 PM
cut green and bailey

trade Doom and Moss

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:05 PM
Have you thought of draft day trades? STs? Cuts? Spencer, Boss, Jarvis, Green.

That's possible .. but it's speculative.

Everybody's voting Green, by REMEMBER: Louis Green is a special teams DEMON! Lonie Paxton can't do it all by himself ... or can he? hmmm...

Gcver2ver3
04-21-2009, 02:07 PM
BroncoBuff i just read your ENTIRE email and realize i did exactly what you didn't want see happen...lol...i didn't read your post initially, just the thread title...i was replying to your thread title...

oops...:rofl:

TheDave
04-21-2009, 02:07 PM
With the exception of andra Davis we have no idea if any of them can play in a 3-4... So I'm prepared to cut any/all of them.

Rohirrim
04-21-2009, 02:07 PM
That's possible .. but it's speculative.

And remember, all: Louis Green is a special teams DEMON, don't forget that.

After all, Lonie Paxton can't do it all by himself ... or can he? hmmm...

Most of the guys you listed as "decent" LBs were on this team when the Broncos were the fifth worst overall D in the league. "Decent" is debatable.

Paladin
04-21-2009, 02:07 PM
The height of fashion: Boss Bailey.

Rohirrim
04-21-2009, 02:08 PM
With the exception of andra Davis we have no idea if any of them can play in a 3-4... So I'm prepared to cut any/all of them.

Bingo!

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:09 PM
BroncoBuff i just read your ENTIRE email and realize i did exactly what you didn't want see happen...lol...i didn't read your post initially, just the thread title...i was replying to your thread title...

oops...:rofl:

Hahahaha ... people who respond to poll threads before the poll is posted (and there's always one) are GAY! ;D

Kaylore
04-21-2009, 02:09 PM
So I'm prepared to cut any/all of them.
Really everyone should have this mindset. There is no one safe anymore. Every player on that team could be let go - even DJ with his new contract.

Man, if we let go of DJ I am certain SoCal would either fire bomb dove valley or he'd become a Niners fan or something.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:13 PM
The Dave ... you really wanna cut Elvis, DJ and WW?

I think lots of you guys' responses here OVERSTATE linebacker's 3-4 specialty skills.

This is still "football" after all, not some different game.

Besides, we'll run hybrids and 4-3 sets quite a lot.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Darrell Reid and Elvis Dumervil - at 288 and 260 - might be the largest set of starting OLBs in NFL history.

Prove me wrong!

Florida_Bronco
04-21-2009, 02:15 PM
Louis Green is the only one I don't see making the opening day roster. Boss Bailey is probably safe unless his injury is not healed.

DJ is a Pro Bowl caliber player. He is not going anywhere. Dumervil should excel in Nolan's defense, he is safe. Davis and Reid will be safe too. Woodyard and Larsen should be in heavy rotation.

Moss and Crowder would have to show epic levels of suck to not make the opening day roster. Both are safe.

Shoemaker
04-21-2009, 02:17 PM
If there was an "Any/All" option I'd select that.

This is a new defense so basically everybody except for Andra Davis is an unknown quantity. Even Moss and Crowder get to start over.

Therefore 8 linebacker spots are open, and we should have a completely open competition to see who wins the spots. And if we feel a drafted LB would play better than any on our roster, bring 'em in.

While I would prefer to drop Green or Crowder, it all depends on how everybody plays. If DJ or even Woodyard lays an egg and looks terrible, then drop them for guys who outplay them for the spots.

TheDave
04-21-2009, 02:20 PM
The Dave ... you really wanna cut Elvis, DJ and WW?

I think lots of you guys' responses here OVERSTATE linebacker's 3-4 specialty skills.

This is still "football" after all, not some different game.

Besides, we'll run hybrids and 4-3 sets quite a lot.

It doesn't matter what I want (Cutler situation comes to mind)...

The problem is we have absolutely no idea if any of these guys can play effectively in a 3-4... and we know that most of them couldn't play worth a **** in a 4-3 (see 2007 & 2008).

Therefore IMO every person not named Champ could be replaced this weekend.

Hotrod
04-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Louis Green is the only one I don't see making the opening day roster. Boss Bailey is probably safe unless his injury is not healed.

DJ is a Pro Bowl caliber player. He is not going anywhere. Dumervil should excel in Nolan's defense, he is safe. Davis and Reid will be safe too. Woodyard and Larsen should be in heavy rotation.

Moss and Crowder would have to show epic levels of suck to not make the opening day roster. Both are safe.

I think they both have the potential to hit epic suck levels. :)


While I disagree that we are OK at Lb'er I would much rather focus on the dline and youth in the secondary.

OBF1
04-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Williams, Bailey and Green.... depending on who we were to draft

bowtown
04-21-2009, 02:25 PM
Really everyone should have this mindset. There is no one safe anymore. Every player on that team could be let go - even DJ with his new contract.

Man, if we let go of DJ I am certain SoCal would either fire bomb dove valley or he'd become a Niners fan or something.

Yeah, and the best part is if we get rid of DJ, we pretty much have to cut him and make him a June 1st cut in order to not eat his cap number this year. Trade is virtually out of the question, but that won't stop the entire board from melting down about how we never get anything in return for our players.

socalorado
04-21-2009, 02:25 PM
cut green and bailey

trade Doom and Moss

Cutting Green and bailey yes.

What would Moss get DEN in a trade?!?!?
Trading a situational 3rd down, 4-3 pass rusher, who cant stay healthy and really has had absolutely no success in any way, shape or form whatsoever for anything of value really isnt gonna happen, unless MCD and Xanders can get another teams GM drunk.
Heres to hoping for a "happy hour" trade on saturday!!!!!

WABronco
04-21-2009, 02:26 PM
It doesn't matter what I want (Cutler situation comes to mind)...

The problem is we have absolutely no idea if any of these guys can play effectively in a 3-4... and we know that most of them couldn't play worth a **** in a 4-3 (see 2007 & 2008).

Therefore IMO every person not named Champ could be replaced this weekend.

Thank you.

If you think for one second that they'll pass on, say, Brian Cushing or Everette Brown because they have a LB corps full of left-overs and career special teamers...you're kidding yourself.

DenverBrit
04-21-2009, 02:29 PM
Not sure.

Got any mini camp film showing the LBs playing a 3-4?

Otherwise, we're all p*ssing in the dark. ;D

cmhargrove
04-21-2009, 02:34 PM
Boss Bailey...

Boss Bailey

cmhargrove
04-21-2009, 02:41 PM
This is a challenge thread ... don't avoid the main question please.

Lots of gusy here are talking Maualuga, Everette Brown, Larry English, Lauranitis, even Cushing, but my take is that we're pretty well set at LB.

Here's the depth chart:

Elvis Dumervil + DJ Williams + Andra Davis + Darrell Reid ... Starters, W to S
Jarvis Moss + Wesley Woodyard + Spencer Larsen + Boss Bailey/Louis Green ... Backups, W to S

That's 8 ... plus Boss Bailey/Louis Green, Tim Crowder and Mario Haggans


So if you want to draft a LB, who you gonna cut? And don't just say "Boss Bailey," that's too easy, too fashionable.

Hey Broncobuff, I already tried this logic for why we don't need Tyson Jackson at #12, but nobody listened. We have a bunch of 290-300lb guys that would seem to fit the 3-4 DE size. However, this organization has already committed to improving the team at any position.

None of our "guys" have proven they can play 3-4 OLB. And, since Nolan is known for his LB's and this draft has plenty of talented ones, we think it is a "value pick" in the first round.

You have to have Jarvis and Crowder in the questionable category also. We might keep them, but after cutting Bly and trading Cutler, nothing would surprise me here. It's all about improving the team.

socalorado
04-21-2009, 02:45 PM
Louis Green is the only one I don't see making the opening day roster. Boss Bailey is probably safe unless his injury is not healed.

DJ is a Pro Bowl caliber player. He is not going anywhere. Dumervil should excel in Nolan's defense, he is safe. Davis and Reid will be safe too. Woodyard and Larsen should be in heavy rotation.

Moss and Crowder would have to show epic levels of suck to not make the opening day roster. Both are safe.

The above post has epic levels of SUCK everywhere.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 02:53 PM
If you think for one second that they'll pass on, say, Brian Cushing or Everette Brown because they have a LB corps full of left-overs and career special teamers...you're kidding yourself.

As far as "leftovers," who do you think qualifies as a leftover, Andra Davis? Maybe ... but he is a leader with 3-4 experience (and he has the fewest votes on that list). Neither is Boss a "leftover," he was a longtime starter when we signed him.

And "career special teamers"? The only ones on that list are Darrell Reid and Louis Green ... and Nolan seems 90% set on starting Reid, and after all, Louis Green is #9 on that depth chart ....

You gotta do better than that ... MAKE YOUR CASE, guys.

Sure, most of these gusy have very little 3-4 experience, but the 3-4 is not some "alien" game .. it's still FOOTBALL. Besides, we're gonna run 4-3 and hybrid just as much.

At 288 and 260, Reid and Dumervil will be the largest set of starting OLBs in NFL history - a 3-4 necessity - Andra Davis is a leader with 3-4 experience, DJ Williams is a versatile stud, and Larsen and Woodyard have phenomenal upside.

Hotrod
04-21-2009, 02:55 PM
This nonsense "cut them all" is just silly ... come on, make your case.

I think the problem Buff is none of us have seen them play in the 3-4 so we cant really say how they will do.

Personally with the guys we have today I'm a fan of BPA on defense period....whomever they determine that to be at the time.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 03:01 PM
I think the problem Buff is none of us have seen them play in the 3-4 so we cant really say how they will do.

Personally with the guys we have today I'm a fan of BPA on defense period....whomever they determine that to be at the time.

Well, there is some sanity here ... only Boss, Green and Jarvis are getting any real votes ... and DJ, Davis, Reid and Larsen have just a couple.

If it weren't for The Dave, Elvis and WW would have 0 votes ....

Broncojef
04-21-2009, 03:08 PM
I think the problem Buff is none of us have seen them play in the 3-4 so we cant really say how they will do.

Personally with the guys we have today I'm a fan of BPA on defense period....whomever they determine that to be at the time.

Absolutely!!! Anyone who had to watch that defense should welcome an upgrade anywhere on this defense. Our defense absolutely stank last year now we can't find anyone worthy to cut? I'd take Maualuga and Cushing at 12 and 18 and not think twice. Your point is a good one though, with so little coaching and terrible defense schemes I'm really not sure what we have for a 4-3 let alone a 3-4.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Her's a corollary to my point about LBs ... consider this: Marcus-freaking-Thomas has more NFL starts than all the other D-Linemen on the roster COMBINED.

Now I hope you see what I'm getting at with this thread.

Plus safety is still a HUGE problem.

Compared with DE, NT and S ... we are LOADED at LB.

lex
04-21-2009, 03:14 PM
We dont really know that anyone in the draft would be better than someone we already have like Elvis.

Drek
04-21-2009, 03:16 PM
I don't think its a "who you going to cut?" thing as much as are we really happy with what we currently have?

I think Wesley Woodyard has some reasonable hope to be a solid 3-4 WILB. But do we want to bet on just reasonable hope if say, Rey Maualuga is sitting at #18 or James Laurinaitis is available at #48?

If Aaron Curry slides out of the top five and we can jump up and get him for our #12 and #79 picks, are we really content with what we've got at SOLB as it is?

Its all about what our choices are. Right now Woodyard, Larsen, Darrel Reid, etc. look like they're worth trying out only because they're better than the dudes still on the street. If we have the chance to get a legitimate improvement in the draft then people's perspectives on these guys will change pretty quickly.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We don't have much proven talent at LB. We have more potential there then at DL for sure, but the difference between the two shouldn't preclude us looking for the best available front seven guys period, regardless.

I think Dumervil can be something special as a rush OLB in the 3-4 though. He sounds like he's really embraced the role and for someone with his instinctive understanding of getting to the QB that was half the battle. Worst case scenario he won't be an every down guy but a spark plug off the bench on passing downs. Best case? Our very own James Harrison.

Florida_Bronco
04-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Cutting Green and bailey yes.

What would Moss get DEN in a trade?!?!?
Trading a situational 3rd down, 4-3 pass rusher, who cant stay healthy and really has had absolutely no success in any way, shape or form whatsoever for anything of value really isnt gonna happen, unless MCD and Xanders can get another teams GM drunk.
Heres to hoping for a "happy hour" trade on saturday!!!!!

Moss is plenty capable of being a 3-4 linebacker. He's got the size, speed and fluid hips needed. He also looked pretty decent in 07 and did ok in 2008 if you adjust for having no coaching whatsoever.

Moss and Crowder are simply too physically gifted to give up on after only two years, especially when they've both shown flashes and were never taught any pass rush moves. We've got competent defensive coaches now and they will make every reasonable attempt to maximize that physical potential.

Popps
04-21-2009, 03:26 PM
Bailey is 100% useless in our scheme. He's an absolute liability.

I'll gladly be the first here to admit I'm wrong if it's the case, but I think we should take the pain and just cut that guy right now. I understand the salary implications, but he's just taking up a roster spot.

I have no idea if we're being diplomatic because of Champ, but Boss has no place in our defense. He's a "finesse" linebacker who doesn't hit or tackle well. Good luck taking on linemen and fullbacks.

The reality of it is, he probably won't make it through the pre-season before ending up injured. But, he's useless.

Old Dude
04-21-2009, 03:32 PM
I think this team is sorely lacking in talent throughout the entire defense. So it's easier to say who I'd keep than who I'd cut.

Keepers: Champ Bailey; DJ Williams; Dawkins & Dumervil.

Everyone else needs to fight for a job, and I don't see any reason why any one of them couldn't be beaten out by a good rookie.

fdf
04-21-2009, 03:37 PM
. . . isnt gonna happen, unless MCD and Xanders can get another teams GM drunk.

That works for me.

penguintheory
04-21-2009, 03:44 PM
Boss Bailey...

Boss Bailey

Boss Bailey

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 03:44 PM
I don't think its a "who you going to cut?" thing as much as are we really happy with what we currently have?

I think Wesley Woodyard has some reasonable hope to be a solid 3-4 WILB. But do we want to bet on just reasonable hope if say, Rey Maualuga is sitting at #18 or James Laurinaitis is available at #48?
Well, WW is a backup, at least in my depth chart ... backing up D.J. at WILB. So drafting Maualuga or Lauranitis (ech) means we'd have to bench Davis/Larsen or D.J. ... ???


If Aaron Curry slides out of the top five and we can jump up and get him for our #12 and #79 picks, are we really content with what we've got at SOLB as it is?
Can't deny that, no doubt. But I seem to gather that Josh and Nolan are pretty well sold on Reid, at starting him at SOLB. That's the feeling I get from all I'm reading. But if you're comparing Reid to Curry ... that's easy, Curry.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Sounds like my argument ;D


We have more potential at LB than at DL for sure, but the difference between the two shouldn't preclude us looking for the best available front seven guys period, regardless.
Yes, I understand the relevance of BPA logic ... but the last two seasons our defense was horrible in large measure because, 2007: Worst DTs in the league, and 2008: Worst safeties in the league. And without some major reinforcements, we WILL have the worst D-Line in the league in 2009.

I'm merely advocating we aim our resources toward the "biggest holes in the boat."


I think Dumervil can be something special as a rush OLB in the 3-4 though. He sounds like he's really embraced the role and for someone with his instinctive understanding of getting to the QB that was half the battle. Worst case scenario he won't be an every down guy but a spark plug off the bench on passing downs. Best case? Our very own James Harrison.
Nice optimism, I agree Elvis very well might explode here ... and at 260 pounds + Reid at 288, is that the largest set of starting OLBs in league history? I'll bet it is ... and that's a good start at making our LBs fit the 3-4 scheme.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 03:47 PM
This is a challenge thread ... don't avoid the main question please.

Lots of gusy here are talking Maualuga, Everette Brown, Larry English, Lauranitis, even Cushing, but my take is that we're pretty well set at LB.

Here's the depth chart:

Elvis Dumervil + DJ Williams + Andra Davis + Darrell Reid ... Starters, W to S
Start with the obvious; Reid? Eh...no. This guys a scrub at DL, probably can't play the OLB spot and just because he lined up there in minicamp means nothing. I barely knew he was on the team...UDFA who doesn't make it out of TC. Let's leave the rest of the starters alone...for now.
Jarvis Moss + Wesley Woodyard + Spencer Larsen + Boss Bailey/Louis Green ... Backups, W to S
Jarvis is the perfect McHoodie patsy for the axe. He's got the big contract, he's far behind his development schedule, he's a one dimensional pass rusher who hasn't proved he's ready for the NFL at his natural position, let alone capable of moving to another. I like his potential but that's what was keeping him on the team with Shanahan, who had to be loyal to a point since he drafted him. This guy's got no reason to keep him around at all and good reason to dump him. Bailey is to expensive and not that good even in the 4-3, plus he's to fragile so he's gone also. Green's to small...so is Woodyard but he's to good to cut. He moves inside...will he have the same impact there? Who knows? He'lll be 30 pounds smaller than most ILB's in the 3-4. Larsen...I think he can play in this system and in fact he might wind up starting alongside Davis. Crowder gets cut also...he's done nothing so far and McHoodie won't have any loyalty here either so unless he's FAR better than he's been at DE, he's history.

As for the starters, Elvis is new to LB and most in here didn't even think before McDaniels got here that he could play there. Davis is a Brownco. How's that worked out for us? He's probably the best though...DJ's probably going to struggle like he has everywhere else other than the weak side in a 4-3 setup.

DrFate
04-21-2009, 03:49 PM
I see a lot of guys... I don't see a lot of good guys...

Who knows if Dummervil can make the transition at all?

I'd say DJ is safe...

That's about otherwise - the rest are journeymen (I think Elvis is better than that level, but as a 4-3 end - we'll see as a 3-4 OLB)

broncofan7
04-21-2009, 03:52 PM
This is EZ--Cut Boss, Jarvis, and Louis Green

leaves us with Doom, DJ, Davis, Reid, Woodyard and Larsen + a ROOKIE LB or two.

BroncoMan4ever
04-21-2009, 04:16 PM
This is a challenge thread ... don't avoid the main question please.

Lots of gusy here are talking Maualuga, Everette Brown, Larry English, Lauranitis, even Cushing, but my take is that we're pretty well set at LB.

Here's the depth chart:

Elvis Dumervil + DJ Williams + Andra Davis + Darrell Reid ... Starters, W to S
Jarvis Moss + Wesley Woodyard + Spencer Larsen + Boss Bailey/Louis Green ... Backups, W to S

That's 8 ... plus Boss Bailey/Louis Green, Tim Crowder and Mario Haggans


So if you want to draft a LB, who you gonna cut? And don't just say "Boss Bailey," that's too easy, too fashionable.

we have a lot of LBs on the roster, that doesn't mean any of them are worth a damn. we have a lot of RBs on the roster, but that doesn't mean we are OK there either.

every LB on the roster is either, a career backup, special teams guy, learning a new position or nearing the end of their career.

you say we are set at LB, i say we can upgrade from every single LB on the roster that will be a starter.

DrFate
04-21-2009, 04:20 PM
we have a lot of LBs on the roster, that doesn't mean any of them are worth a damn. we have a lot of RBs on the roster, but that doesn't mean we are OK there either.

every LB on the roster is either, a career backup, special teams guy, learning a new position or nearing the end of their career.

you say we are set at LB, i say we can upgrade from every single LB on the roster that will be a starter.

What he said...

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 04:26 PM
Start with the obvious; Reid? Eh...no. This guys a scrub at DL, probably can't play the OLB spot and just because he lined up there in minicamp means nothing. I barely knew he was on the team...UDFA who doesn't make it out of TC. Let's leave the rest of the starters alone...for now.

Jarvis is the perfect McHoodie patsy for the axe. He's got the big contract, he's far behind his development schedule, he's a one dimensional pass rusher who hasn't proved he's ready for the NFL at his natural position, let alone capable of moving to another. I like his potential but that's what was keeping him on the team with Shanahan, who had to be loyal to a point since he drafted him. This guy's got no reason to keep him around at all and good reason to dump him. Bailey is to expensive and not that good even in the 4-3, plus he's to fragile so he's gone also. Green's to small...so is Woodyard but he's to good to cut. He moves inside...will he have the same impact there? Who knows? He'lll be 30 pounds smaller than most ILB's in the 3-4. Larsen...I think he can play in this system and in fact he might wind up starting alongside Davis. Crowder gets cut also...he's done nothing so far and McHoodie won't have any loyalty here either so unless he's FAR better than he's been at DE, he's history.

As for the starters, Elvis is new to LB and most in here didn't even think before McDaniels got here that he could play there. Davis is a Brownco. How's that worked out for us? He's probably the best though...DJ's probably going to struggle like he has everywhere else other than the weak side in a 4-3 setup.

Best response yet imo ... lots of good stuff there.

Yes, Moss could be a McHoodie patsy ....

Reid might be overrated, he is a career special-teamer....

Crowder gets cut, yes prolly (I didn't even include him in the poll) ....

You're too hard on DJ though. He hasn't "struggled" anywhere but at Mike for the first half of '07 ...

And yes, WW is smallish, but his trade value is zilch, and he's too good to cut.

footstepsfrom#27
04-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Best response yet imo ... lots of good stuff there.

Yes, Moss could be a McHoodie patsy ....

Reid might be overrated, he is a career special-teamer....

Crowder gets cut, yes prolly (I didn't even include him in the poll) ....

You're too hard on DJ though. He hasn't "struggled" anywhere but at Mike for the first half of '07 ...

And yes, WW is smallish, but his trade value is zilch, and he's too good to cut.
So back to the other thread...if Jackson and Raji are gone would you take either of the two ILB's with first round grades? Or...maybe both?

maher_tyler
04-21-2009, 05:08 PM
It doesn't matter what I want (Cutler situation comes to mind)...

The problem is we have absolutely no idea if any of these guys can play effectively in a 3-4... and we know that most of them couldn't play worth a **** in a 4-3 (see 2007 & 2008).

Therefore IMO every person not named Champ could be replaced this weekend.

Good post...obviously not everyone can be replace in a weekend but i do think its only a matter of a 1 or 2 season before none of the defensive players from the Shanny era are on the team anymore most likely even Champ..if we don't make the playoffs this year or next he's most likely going to want out and i don't blame him..he deserves a ring!!

Anaximines
04-21-2009, 05:22 PM
A lot of people seem high on Andra Davis and Darrell Reid. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like there was also a lot of excitement around here when Dre Bly, Boss, Sam Adams, (gasp!) Simeon Rice, and maybe even M&M were brought in. I guess it doesn't make sense to sign and cut a FA in the same offseason but I'm not totally sold on either of these guys.

Br0nc0Buster
04-21-2009, 05:26 PM
We are OK I think at ILB between WW, DJ, Davis, and Larsen.

We could used another OLB though because Doom is the only one that can rush the passer.

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 05:45 PM
A lot of people seem high on Andra Davis and Darrell Reid. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like there was also a lot of excitement around here when Dre Bly, Boss, Sam Adams, (gasp!) Simeon Rice, and maybe even M&M were brought in. I guess it doesn't make sense to sign and cut a FA in the same offseason but I'm not totally sold on either of these guys.

Very good point.

I'm "sold" on Andra Davis myself, but Darrell Reid has never been a starter, so who knows?

Bronco Boy
04-21-2009, 06:02 PM
They could all easily be cut, except Williams, Davis, and Dumervil. Only Williams and Davis are solid starters IMO.

cutthemdown
04-21-2009, 06:39 PM
Well a trade is also possible you never know.

IMO Broncos will almost certainly pick an inside linebacker. If Moss can't play linebacker maybe some team would give like a 4th or 5th for him and take a chance he can make it at dend. Hard to believe a first rounder would be cut but I think that is possible. Louis Green seems like he could be cut.

cutthemdown
04-21-2009, 06:41 PM
Boss Bailey may end back on injured reserve. Just a guess. Sort of a way to pay him without cutting him and pissing of big brother. I just don't think Boss Baileys size or playing style fit a 3-4.

maher_tyler
04-21-2009, 06:53 PM
If there is a guy we really want like Raji etc. i could see us packaging our 12th pick and a 3rd to move up and take him..we need A LOT of help up front!!

BroncoBuff
04-21-2009, 07:35 PM
If there is a guy we really want like Raji etc. i could see us packaging our 12th pick and a 3rd to move up and take him..we need A LOT of help up front!!

The newest "conventional wisdom" is that Raji is not a true 3-4 NT.

Whatever ... Fields, Powell and Brace is cool with me. I'd like to snare a Dorrell Scott in round 5 too.

OrangeRising
04-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Jarvis Moss is a bust. Moving him around isn't going to change that.

I have to believe the coaches have been dazzled by his athletic prowess up until now, but McDaniels has shown absolutely no mercy with Shanahan favorites, so might as well admit the mistake and move on.

Pick Six
04-21-2009, 11:10 PM
The "easy out" answer is cutting whomever can't hack it in the new Nolan defense.

Names...names...need names...

OK...I never wanted Boss Bailey to be a Bronco in the first place...

lex
04-22-2009, 01:03 AM
Jarvis Moss is a bust. Moving him around isn't going to change that.

I have to believe the coaches have been dazzled by his athletic prowess up until now, but McDaniels has shown absolutely no mercy with Shanahan favorites, so might as well admit the mistake and move on.

LOL. Engelberger was a Shanahan favorite. Moss has talent and the coaching (Burney and Slowik) has been horrible the past two years. Im not making any predictions but Im also not ruling out Moss.

chickennob2
04-22-2009, 04:47 AM
<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><title></title><meta name="GENERATOR" content="OpenOffice.org 2.4 (Win32)"><style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { size: 8.5in 11in; margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style> Who do we cut? The Chargers 2008 roster had 11 linebackers. ( http://www3.signonsandiego.com/sports/chargers/players/2008/ ). 3-4 teams have lots of linebackers. Of that list you provided, there are 9 guys currently at the position. Sure, a few of them likely will be cut. But to say "look, we have 9 linebackers on the roster so we can't draft any" is just wrong. Hell, we could draft 2 and hit San Diego's mark from last season.


I mean your linebackers are the heart and soul of your special teams too. Expect to see quite a few on the roster.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 05:55 AM
Moss is plenty capable of being a 3-4 linebacker. He's got the size, speed and fluid hips needed. He also looked pretty decent in 07 and did ok in 2008 if you adjust for having no coaching whatsoever.

Moss and Crowder are simply too physically gifted to give up on after only two years, especially when they've both shown flashes and were never taught any pass rush moves. We've got competent defensive coaches now and they will make every reasonable attempt to maximize that physical potential.

Moss sucks, as you can see from the poll. Deal with it.
Hes never done anything but get injured jumping on the pile after someone else, made a play.
He has never shown any ability to play in any scheme other than as a situational 3rd down pass rusher in a 4-3. Hopefully Xanders can get CARs GM drunk and somehow trade him for a pick.
Coaching!?!? He was asked to rush the passer in a conventional 4-3 and sucked at it! He doesnt need any more coaching to do what he did in college.
He sucks as a pro. He never shown any flashes, cause he sucks.
The only reason he might be kept is cause of his contract.
If Mike Nolan can make Moss a "player" in his system, it will be the greatest coaching effort ive seen in a long while.

Gcver2ver3
04-22-2009, 05:56 AM
Moss sucks, as you can see from the poll. Deal with it.
Hes never done anything but get injured jumping on the pile after someone else, made a play.
He has never shown any ability to play in any scheme other than as a situational 3rd down pass rusher in a 4-3. Hopefully Xanders can get CARs GM drunk and somehow trade him for a pick.
Coaching!?!? He was asked to rush the passer in a conventional 4-3 and sucked at it! He doesnt need any more coaching to do what he did in college.
He sucks as a pro. He never shown any flashes, cause he sucks.
The only reason he might be kept is cause of his contract.
If Mike Nolan can make Moss a "player" in his system, it will be the greatest coaching effort ive seen in a long while.

i'm afraid i have to agree...

lostknight
04-22-2009, 06:50 AM
We have much bigger needs at D-Line and Safety. Unfortunately D-Line and Safeties are rather thin this season, compared to next years draft.

BMarsh615
04-22-2009, 07:03 AM
I say we just go ahead and trade DJ Williams, just because I enjoy cheering for Woodyard a lot more. :)

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 09:50 AM
Hey Broncobuff, I already tried this logic for why we don't need Tyson Jackson at #12, but nobody listened.
I'm listening ... and the relevant eye-opening state about our D-Line is that Marcus Thomas has more NFL starts than ALL the other D-linemen on the roster combined. T-Jax might not be as sexy as a pass-ruching LB, but it's a position of far greater need.

Besides, all the comparisons label T-JAx a Richard Seymour type. That's damn sure good enough for me at 12.


Jarvis and Crowder in the questionable category also. We might keep them, but after cutting Bly and trading Cutler, nothing would surprise me here. It's all about improving the team.
hargrove the Amazing Kreskin ... just this morning NationalFootballPost.com iis reporting we're actively shopping both Moss and Crowder: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...to-trade-down/

With Moss gone, and with the knowledge that Reid is really a special teams guy with just a handful of starts, this thread is moot ... we need to draft an OLB.

I still like our ILBs ... Davis, DJ, Larsen and Woodyard are all solid. DJ and Davis are in their primes (5 and 6 years) and Larsen and Woodyard are still kids. I can't see cutting any of those four.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 09:58 AM
This is a challenge thread ... don't avoid the main question please.

Lots of gusy here are talking Maualuga, Everette Brown, Larry English, Lauranitis, even Cushing, but my take is that we're pretty well set at LB.

Here's the depth chart:

Elvis Dumervil + DJ Williams + Andra Davis + Darrell Reid ... Starters, W to S
Jarvis Moss + Wesley Woodyard + Spencer Larsen + Boss Bailey/Louis Green ... Backups, W to S

That's 8 ... plus Boss Bailey/Louis Green, Tim Crowder and Mario Haggans


So if you want to draft a LB, who you gonna cut? And don't just say "Boss Bailey," that's too easy, too fashionable.

Well, this is your thread so I'll keep it short. You cut the guy who is at the bottom of the depth chart when cuts are made.

You never, EVER approach a draft with this premise in mind though. Its counterproductive. You try to improve your personnel in the long and short term, not keep dead weight.

DrFate
04-22-2009, 10:24 AM
The newest "conventional wisdom" is that Raji is not a true 3-4 NT..

I've read this a few times also

BroncoInSkinland
04-22-2009, 10:39 AM
Regarding Andra Davis, I had the dubious honor of watching a LOT of Browns games over the past two years. Andra is a solid hitter, but thats about as far as it goes. His pursuit and coverage are below average. I believe he could be a strong influence on the deffenses attitude, and that his leadership potential is fairly good, but if you are looking for onfield performance besides laying the wood on a guy who runs directly into him you may be dissapointed. I think the FA pickup was more about getting the right attitude in the locker room, but aside from that I would put him in the expendable column.

BroncoBuff
04-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Well, this is your thread so I'll keep it short.
You NEVER have to keep it short on my account Med ... seriously. ;D


You never, EVER approach a draft with this premise in mind though. Its counterproductive. You try to improve your personnel in the long and short term, not keep dead weight.
Yes, I suppose my premise here, "our LBs are fine," under-emphasizes the just-as-important or more-important point that our D-Line is a disaster zone right now.

A big part of why we've had the worst defense in the league over the last two years is that in '07 we had the wosrt DTs in the league (and were run on mercilessly), and in '08 the worst Safeties in the league. Weak units like that with street free agent starters like Amon Gordon and Calvin Lowry, are exploited by NFL offenses. And the way things look now, we're gonna have the worst D-Line in the league this year.

The fact that Marcus Thomas has more NFL starts (21) than all the other D-linemen on the roster combined is an eye-popping stat.

Imo we need to draft 2 NTs and 2-3 DEs.

On defense, it all starts up front.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 11:12 AM
You NEVER have to keep it short on my account Med ... seriously. ;D



Yes, I suppose my premise here, "our LBs are fine," under-emphasizes the just-as-important or more-important point that our D-Line is a disaster zone right now.

A big part of why we've had the worst defense in the league over the last two years is that in '07 we had the wosrt DTs in the league (and were run on mercilessly), and in '08 the worst Safeties in the league. Weak units like that with street free agnet starters like Amon Gordon and Calvin Lowry are exploited in this league, and the way things look now, we're gonna have the worst D-Line in the league this year.

The fact that Marcus Thomas has more NFL starts (21) than all the other D-linemen on the roster combined is an eye-popping stat.

Imo we need to draft 2 NTs and 2-3 DEs.

On defense, it all starts up front.


Right, and a couple LBs as well.
The value for the DE/NT spot is there in the 2nd through 4th

1A OLB BCushing or ILB REY
1B OLB LEnglish or OLB CMatthews
2 NT RBrace or OLB LSidbury
3A DE AMagee or DE FMoala
3B DE MKing or NT DScott
4 NT Sammie Lee Hill or a RB
and so on...

Northman
04-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Reed, Bailey, and Green should go.

Mountain Bronco
04-22-2009, 11:18 AM
This thread sucks. All these players are mediocre save DJ. I would cut any and all of them if necessary.

Mediator12
04-22-2009, 11:30 AM
You NEVER have to keep it short on my account Med ... seriously. ;D



Yes, I suppose my premise here, "our LBs are fine," under-emphasizes the just-as-important or more-important point that our D-Line is a disaster zone right now.

A big part of why we've had the worst defense in the league over the last two years is that in '07 we had the wosrt DTs in the league (and were run on mercilessly), and in '08 the worst Safeties in the league. Weak units like that with street free agent starters like Amon Gordon and Calvin Lowry, are exploited by NFL offenses. And the way things look now, we're gonna have the worst D-Line in the league this year.

The fact that Marcus Thomas has more NFL starts (21) than all the other D-linemen on the roster combined is an eye-popping stat.

Imo we need to draft 2 NTs and 2-3 DEs.

On defense, it all starts up front.

Yeah, but you laid out parameters.... ;D

I think the front Seven needs to be addressed and the DL is WEAK this year, outside of Rush LB/DE. So, I think if you can get a Guy Like Tyson Jackson as your foundation, a guy like Dorrell Scott in round 3 to play NT, another front seven guy in round 2 based on BPA and your in business. Then just find the best BPA from there out. This team still has holes that need much better personnel. Three top 50 picks on the front seven would really help in this draft.

Florida_Bronco
04-22-2009, 01:38 PM
Moss sucks, as you can see from the poll. Deal with it. We've also had polls where people said Woodyard was better than D.J. Luckily, the people who know better shot that one down.

Hes never done anything but get injured jumping on the pile after someone else, made a play. When has he been injured jumping on a pile? Geez, can't you at least be accurate?

He has never shown any ability to play in any scheme other than as a situational 3rd down pass rusher in a 4-3. You think that might have something to do with the fact we haven't had a legitimate defensive scheme since Bates was canned halfway into 07? Surprisingly, Moss was looking pretty good in 07 despite his health setbacks.

Coaching!?!? He was asked to rush the passer in a conventional 4-3 and sucked at it! And what pass rushing moves was he taught? None. He bullrushed on every play, and that's not what Moss is meant to do.

You simply can't dispute that. The player's own quotes confirm that and our people in training camp have told us how Burney did nothing but yell at people. That's not coaching.

He doesnt need any more coaching to do what he did in college. I'll let this ignorant quote stand on it's own. Just read it, over and over again.

He sucks as a pro. He never shown any flashes, cause he sucks. Again, you're full of it. He was showing flashes in 07 when he was still hurt and gave us some decent play this year despite being played out of position in a redhead bastard child excuse of a defensive scheme.

The only reason he might be kept is cause of his contract.
And the fact he was the most talented DE to come out of that draft besides Gaines Adams.

If Mike Nolan can make Moss a "player" in his system, it will be the greatest coaching effort ive seen in a long while. I doubt it'll be that hard. Slowik already had Moss playing some OLB, and Nolan is a master of coaching LBs. Plus, he'll have a scheme that the players can learn and is not constantly changing.

Honestly, I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to understand. You take a raw physical talent coming off an injury and then stick him with the worst DC and DL coach in the game and we're supposed to be surprised when he hasn't produced? Please.

Mogulseeker
04-22-2009, 01:41 PM
I voted: Reid, Moss, Bailey, Green.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 02:49 PM
We've also had polls where people said Woodyard was better than D.J. Luckily, the people who know better shot that one down.
When has he been injured jumping on a pile? Geez, can't you at least be accurate?
You think that might have something to do with the fact we haven't had a legitimate defensive scheme since Bates was canned halfway into 07? Surprisingly, Moss was looking pretty good in 07 despite his health setbacks.
And what pass rushing moves was he taught? None. He bullrushed on every play, and that's not what Moss is meant to do.
You simply can't dispute that. The player's own quotes confirm that and our people in training camp have told us how Burney did nothing but yell at people. That's not coaching.
I'll let this ignorant quote stand on it's own. Just read it, over and over again.
Again, you're full of it. He was showing flashes in 07 when he was still hurt and gave us some decent play this year despite being played out of position in a redhead bastard child excuse of a defensive scheme.
And the fact he was the most talented DE to come out of that draft besides Gaines Adams.
I doubt it'll be that hard. Slowik already had Moss playing some OLB, and Nolan is a master of coaching LBs. Plus, he'll have a scheme that the players can learn and is not constantly changing.
Honestly, I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to understand. You take a raw physical talent coming off an injury and then stick him with the worst DC and DL coach in the game and we're supposed to be surprised when he hasn't produced? Please.



In addition, Iíve also learned that the Denver Broncos are shopping defensive ends Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.

Moss, a second year veteran out of the University of Florida, has only started 1 game in the past two seasons, cause he sucks balls. In addition, Moss only amassed 12 tackles in 2008, according to NFL.com.

Crowder, a second year vet out of the University of Texas, only appeared in 19 total games for the Broncos since being drafted.

More on these stories as they develop.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...to-trade-down/

Yeah, the best LB coach in football, (Nolan) is shopping Moss cause hes so talented and just hasnt gotten a fair shot at playing.
Yeah, right.
http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/normal_demotivational-posters-rock-bottom.jpg

Florida_Bronco
04-22-2009, 02:57 PM
In addition, Iíve also learned that the Denver Broncos are shopping defensive ends Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.

Moss, a second year veteran out of the University of Florida, has only started 1 game in the past two seasons, cause he sucks balls. In addition, Moss only amassed 12 tackles in 2008, according to NFL.com.

Crowder, a second year vet out of the University of Texas, only appeared in 19 total games for the Broncos since being drafted.

More on these stories as they develop.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...to-trade-down/

Yeah, the best LB coach in football, (Nolan) is shopping Moss cause hes so talented and just hasnt gotten a fair shot at playing.
Yeah, right.
http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/normal_demotivational-posters-rock-bottom.jpg

Too bad you're quoting a source who is, at best, very questionable. If this was someone like Wabbit, Schefter...etc, then you might have a leg to stand on.

Not this time.

socalorado
04-22-2009, 03:08 PM
Too bad you're quoting a source who is, at best, very questionable. If this was someone like Wabbit, Schefter...etc, then you might have a leg to stand on.
Not this time.
Right, yeah not this time like all the other times youve made a complete moronic fool of yourself.

Florida_Bronco
04-22-2009, 03:10 PM
Right, yeah not this time like all the other times youve made a complete moronic fool of yourself.

Says the guy who is effectively quoting a source only slightly above Bobo/WPI as it was some kind of proven fact.

Tell me, is the deal done?