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View Full Version : Boss Bailey's position in the 3-4


ro_50
04-17-2009, 05:43 PM
I've read in some corners that Boss Bailey is projected as a starting inside linebacker -- alongside Andra Davis -- in the new 3-4 defense.

My question is Boss has played OLB throughout his NFL career, and for those 3-4 experts out there, how does he fit into the 3-4 as a ILB, given he's at that position and not at OLB.

MVP-06
04-17-2009, 05:46 PM
outside injured reserve is my guess

TheDave
04-17-2009, 05:47 PM
Whatever position is closest to the bench...

lex
04-17-2009, 05:50 PM
I think he will probably play Untradeable Contract.

NFLBRONCO
04-17-2009, 05:52 PM
Highest paid bench warmer

Bronx33
04-17-2009, 05:55 PM
Leak a story that he might get traded and see what happens.

telluride
04-17-2009, 06:13 PM
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Bob's your Information Minister
04-17-2009, 06:27 PM
I doubt there's a single 220-pound OLB in a 3-4 anywhere in the NFL.

Or 230 pounds for that matter.

bpc
04-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Ir.

Los Broncos
04-17-2009, 06:57 PM
He's not a bad player when healthy, and that's a big WHEN.

Where's Plummer???
04-17-2009, 06:58 PM
i dont believe he's as good as his Big Bro by no means other than they both seem to have a tendency to be injured alot...

Bronx33
04-17-2009, 06:59 PM
bench boss

broncofan2438
04-17-2009, 07:29 PM
outside injured reserve is my guess

Dam, beat me to it.

loborugger
04-17-2009, 08:00 PM
I doubt there's a single 220-pound OLB in a 3-4 anywhere in the NFL.

Or 230 pounds for that matter.

Every once in a while, a blind pig finds an acorn.

BroncoMan4ever
04-17-2009, 09:18 PM
i dont believe he's as good as his Big Bro by no means other than they both seem to have a tendency to be injured alot...

Champ has missed like 12 games in his entire career. he is far from injury prone.

Where's Plummer???
04-17-2009, 10:03 PM
Champ has missed like 12 games in his entire career. he is far from injury prone.

sry i missed worded it. i meant to put it in there stay at the same team

Popps
04-17-2009, 10:39 PM
http://www.ambulance.vic.gov.au/Media/images/stretcher-48d11b36-5892-4fbc-bdae-c369d424cda3.JPG

Strained hang-nail.

PUP-list.

cutthemdown
04-17-2009, 10:42 PM
No 2 ways about neither Boss Bailey or Woodyard project well to a 3-4 in terms of the size you look for at LB.

Bailey just not near physical enough to play inside in a 3-4. DJ Williams not really either.

If Broncos are going 3-4 they will drafting some bigger more physical inside guys.

Where's Plummer???
04-17-2009, 10:54 PM
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Boss' Theme Song??

Archer81
04-17-2009, 11:37 PM
i dont believe he's as good as his Big Bro by no means other than they both seem to have a tendency to be injured alot...


How long have you been watching football man?



:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
04-17-2009, 11:51 PM
Woodyard is bigger than people think ... same height and just 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson (230 vs. 240).

I compare him to Wilson because he honestly does remind me of him ... great speed, great lateral pursuit, with a single-minded tunnel vision for tackling the ball-carrier. We gotta get him on the field somehow.

cutthemdown
04-18-2009, 12:21 AM
Woodyard is bigger than people think ... same height and just 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson (230 vs. 240).

I compare him to Wilson because he honestly does remind me of him ... great speed, great lateral pursuit, with a single-minded tunnel vision for tackling the ball-carrier. We gotta get him on the field somehow.

IMO though Al Wilson was best in a 4-3 defense. Honestly 230 isn't big by linebacker standards, for 3-4 it almost doesn't happen, but sometimes a guy just plays bigger then his size.

Maybe Woodyard can do it but no way he can play outside in a 3-4 at the jack spot. How does a 230 pounder take on OT?

I think Broncos will use woodyard in the 4-3 looks, and in short yrdage in the 3-4 as a fs in the box.

Popps
04-18-2009, 12:32 AM
Cut is right.

3-4 LBs by nature need to be big, hard-hitting mother****ers. Just the polar opposite of Boss Bailey. He's absolutely in no way suited for our scheme. I have no idea what we'll do with him. Cutting him outright would cost too much and potentially cause bad blood. But, he's got no business in a 3-4. He plays small, isn't a great tackler and is about as non-physical as you'll find in an OLB.

This was one of Shanahan's bigger recent ****-ups.

Popps
04-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Woodyard is bigger than people think ... same height and just 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson (230 vs. 240).

I compare him to Wilson because he honestly does remind me of him ... great speed, great lateral pursuit, with a single-minded tunnel vision for tackling the ball-carrier. We gotta get him on the field somehow.

I do imagine we'll see SOME 4-3 alignments from time to time. A hybrid defense has been hinted around at by the staff.

I agree. Woodyard is 100% football player.

He, Larson and Hillis are absolutely guys you have to get out there on the field, somehow.

cutthemdown
04-18-2009, 12:36 AM
Cut is right.

3-4 LBs by nature need to be big, hard-hitting mother****ers. Just the polar opposite of Boss Bailey. He's absolutely in no way suited for our scheme. I have no idea what we'll do with him. Cutting him outright would cost too much and potentially cause bad blood. But, he's got no business in a 3-4. He plays small, isn't a great tackler and is about as non-physical as you'll find in an OLB.

This was one of Shanahan's bigger recent ****-ups.

exactly which is why I say maybe Woodyard will play bigger then his size and find a role in a 3-4. Boss Bailey IMO lacks the size or style needed for any spot in a 3-4. DJ Williams IMO would have a better shot at making that transition.

Larsen has the size maybe, but is he a good enough football player?

Woodyard, Larsen? Maybe we will see. Boss Bailey, wow I don't see it.

IMO we won't be playing a base 3-4, it will be 4-3 with 3-4 looks on passing downs. Maybe when it goes 3-4 its not the classic 3-4 people thinking.

Broncos may move towards that who knows.

That Gilbert from San Jose State at Dend would be nice for a 3-4 at end. Until we have bigger ends how do we play a 3-4? Until we have bigger inside backers how do we play a 3-4?

400HZ
04-18-2009, 12:36 AM
Donnie Edwards was a pretty decent ILB for San Diego and he weighed like 215. Of course playing behind Jamal Williams helped him immensely.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-18-2009, 07:19 AM
http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg

Cito Pelon
04-18-2009, 01:55 PM
Woodyard is bigger than people think ... same height and just 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson (230 vs. 240).

I compare him to Wilson because he honestly does remind me of him ... great speed, great lateral pursuit, with a single-minded tunnel vision for tackling the ball-carrier. We gotta get him on the field somehow.

Good lord. Try to be realistic at some point. Woodyard is a gamer, that's for sure, you want to try to fit him in somewhere, that's for sure, but Wilson was a big, brawny guy. Woodyard is built more like Ian Gold. Jeez, get a grip, Buff.

Bronx33
04-18-2009, 02:04 PM
http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg



LMAO! and that was just getting a drink from the gatorade bucket.

DBroncos4life
04-18-2009, 02:08 PM
You can't teach speed people

Cito Pelon
04-18-2009, 02:26 PM
exactly which is why I say maybe Woodyard will play bigger then his size and find a role in a 3-4. Boss Bailey IMO lacks the size or style needed for any spot in a 3-4. DJ Williams IMO would have a better shot at making that transition.

Larsen has the size maybe, but is he a good enough football player?

Woodyard, Larsen? Maybe we will see. Boss Bailey, wow I don't see it.

IMO we won't be playing a base 3-4, it will be 4-3 with 3-4 looks on passing downs. Maybe when it goes 3-4 its not the classic 3-4 people thinking.

Broncos may move towards that who knows.

That Gilbert from San Jose State at Dend would be nice for a 3-4 at end. Until we have bigger ends how do we play a 3-4? Until we have bigger inside backers how do we play a 3-4?

They have 4 days to evaluate what they have already at DE with Crowder, Moss, Thomas, etc. And at LB with Larsen, DJ, Davis, etc. Boss isn't on the field.

It's gonna be real interesting to see how they draft.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Good lord. Try to be realistic at some point. Woodyard is a gamer, that's for sure, but Wilson was a big, brawny guy. Jeez, get a grip, Buff.

This is not about Jay Cutler, so you should can the pit bull routine.

Besides, your argument is with simple math, not me. Leave me out of it .

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9004/40459851.jpg



WW is one inch taller and 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson. Deal with it.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2009, 03:06 PM
You can't teach speed people

Yes ... lateral pursuit, mean streak and SPEED are the WW factors that remind me of Al.

WW does play a bit smaller than his size though, I do agree with that. And I can't see him taking on guards at ILB and certainly not OTs at SOLB ... but maybe give him a shot at WOLB, and let Dumervil/Moss play SOLB. Both are converted DEs, so they know how to line up against OTs ...

Who knows? I'll bet McD surprises all of us.

Kaylore
04-18-2009, 03:35 PM
WW is one inch taller and 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson. Deal with it.
Wellllll, I wouldn't trust the team site for official weights. Until the NFL mandates they show their correct roster weight it's rarely very accurate. Woodyard has a much slighter build than Wilson.

Paladin
04-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah, but that one inch can make a difference.......

Drek
04-18-2009, 04:24 PM
Wellllll, I wouldn't trust the team site for official weights. Until the NFL mandates they show their correct roster weight it's rarely very accurate. Woodyard has a much slighter build than Wilson.

Woodyard also gained significant size from college to pro, and at the combine (where they don't lie about weight) he checked in at about 220. I don't think its a stretch to think the jump in size from his collegiate/combine frame to his current NFL frame is a ten pound shift.

Its also pretty telling that a guy put on that much weight that fast in his first brush with a pro style training system. I've always been a pretty big guy myself, started lifting in high school, when I graduated I was 5'9" about 180, and topped out at about 16 reps of 225. When I got to college I started lifting with the football players who lived on my wing. By the end of that year I'd put on 30 pounds of straight muscle and was doing 23-25 reps at 225. That was podunk HS to D1AA college. What do you think the jump in quality of training is for a guy who went from the University of Kentucky (bad and under funded D1A program) to an NFL program would experience?

If he didn't immediately shoot up in size I'd think he was topped out, but with just how quickly he put on visibly noticeable bulk that becomes a pretty hard sell.

He's slighter than Wilson, but he's also an inch taller and a much longer player in the limbs, so that should be a given. Doesn't mean he can't put on the needed size to hold up at the WILB where he isn't asked to take on an interior OL down after down, and he's definitely willing to do the job. There is no guarantee that he'll be able to handle it, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't get a legit shot to prove it one way or the other.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2009, 05:06 PM
I've always been a pretty big guy myself, started lifting in high school, when I graduated I was 5'9" about 180, and topped out at about 16 reps of 225. When I got to college I started lifting with the football players who lived on my wing. By the end of that year I'd put on 30 pounds of straight muscle and was doing 23-25 reps at 225.

Drek is a power-guy ... strong like his posts! :strong:


He's slighter than Wilson, but he's also an inch taller and a much longer player in the limbs, so that should be a given. Doesn't mean he can't put on the needed size to hold up at the WILB where he isn't asked to take on an interior OL down after down, and he's definitely willing to do the job. There is no guarantee that he'll be able to handle it, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't get a legit shot to prove it one way or the other.

Yes, he's not exactly an Al Wilson Mike-type I admit. I just see similarities in their speed and aggressive lateral pursuit ... it's so good to see that after years of that pansy Ian Gold.

Drek what about WW at WOLB ... why not take advantage of his speed and pursuit in space? Then play the bigger converted DEs Elvis/Jarvis over the tackle at SOLB? We all might be kinda jumping the gun thinking Elvis and Jarvis are Jack LBs. McD and Nolan might surprise us.

I will say this: We are in MUCH better shape at linebacker than D-Line. Ron Fields and Marcus Thomas are the only proven starters on the line, and Fields has started only started a handful of games in his career. I wouldn't be opposed to 3 legit 3-4 D-linemen with those 5 early picks.

Tombstone RJ
04-18-2009, 05:12 PM
Woodyard just needs to be on the field somewhere. In this new hybrid 34/43 defense I know the coaches will find a spot for him if he stays healthy.

Bronx33
04-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Woodyard just needs to be on the field somewhere. In this new hybrid 34/43 defense I know the coaches will find a spot for him if he stays healthy.


QFT!

Br0nc0Buster
04-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Boss's position?

The IR.....

I imagine WW will be on the field when we are in a 4-3 or in passing situations only if not in a 4-3

Drek
04-18-2009, 05:43 PM
Drek what about WW at WOLB ... why not take advantage of his speed and pursuit in space? Then play the bigger converted DEs Elvis/Jarvis over the tackle at SOLB? We all might be kinda jumping the gun thinking Elvis and Jarvis are Jack LBs. McD and Nolan might surprise us.

I will say this: We are in MUCH better shape at linebacker than D-Line. Ron Fields and Marcus Thomas are the only proven starters on the line, and Fields has started only started a handful of games in his career. I wouldn't be opposed to 3 legit 3-4 D-linemen with those 5 early picks.

Well, to start off I think we'll be playing a intricate hybrid. Nolan's comments shortly after behind hired vis a vie the Cards' defense that made that quality playoff run were pretty praiseworthy and very applicable to the Broncos (making the defensive scheme work around the talent, masking weaknesses and keeping the offense guessing so they couldn't isolate weak spots).

To that end I think we'll see three basic kinds of seven man fronts. The one everyone assumes, the 3-4, which will be played in Nolan's traditional style with two gappers at the NT and DE positions, a pass rusher at the WOLB spot, an SOLB who needs to be a jack of all trades type, and an ILB pair that has one hammer to fill gaps and direct traffic with another ILB who will finish plays off.

But I think we will also run a 4-3 where the WOLB in the 3-4 front will step up and put his hand on the ground, letting our DL tighten up and reducing the number of two gap responsibilities. That will be primarily to set someone like Marcus Thomas (or if we draft Raji) up for a pass rushing attempt.

The final wrinkle that I think a lot of people are confusing between the 3-4 that Nolan, Parcells, Belichick, the Orange Crush, etc. ran and the Cowboys/Chargers 3-4 run is a 5-2 front. That is basically what the Cowboys and Chargers run, where both OLBs are pass rushers. This will be a pretty strictly passing downs set for us, and will see two of our rush OLB/DE types book ending a three man line that will probably mostly (if not all) be responsible for two gaps.

In that kind of hybrid I think you can find a home for Woodyard in the WILB in the 3-4, WOLB in the 4-3, and probably best as one of the two LBs on the field for the 5-2 (where he'd mostly be responsible for pursuit and coverage, not handling traffic).

The real beauty of this scheme will become apparent when we can do something like go out on the field with a front seven of this:
LB: Dumervil/Woodyard/Davis/DJ
DL: Powell/Fields/Thomas

And either play it as a straight 3-4 or shift it over to a 4-3 with Dumervil coming up to the line any time before the snap, shifting the LBs into more traditional 4-3 spacing. Now take that and think about the added wrinkles we can add when/if Moss or Dumervil show some coverage skills or when/if DJ shows some pass rush productivity. Or throw someone like Raji in the mix who can be everything from a 5-tech DE in the 3-4 to a NT in the 3-4 or 4-3, and even the UT job if asked in the 4-3. It puts you in a point where no one is the defacto guy at any one position, and instead you're rotating guys in situationally so you can shift into and out of the different fronts with such ease that an offense can't make pre-snap reads like they really want to.

BroncoBuff
04-18-2009, 06:17 PM
The real beauty of this scheme will become apparent when we can do something like go out on the field with a front seven of this:

LB: Dumervil/Woodyard/Davis/DJ
DL: Powell/Fields/Thomas

Excellent ... thanks. That does sound beauty, with Larsen and Peterson rotating in I hope.




(BTW, I know you have avatars turned off, but FYI you still have a Tim Crowder Longhorn avvy ::))

Mogulseeker
04-18-2009, 06:55 PM
Cut is right.

3-4 LBs by nature need to be big, hard-hitting mother****ers. Just the polar opposite of Boss Bailey. He's absolutely in no way suited for our scheme. I have no idea what we'll do with him. Cutting him outright would cost too much and potentially cause bad blood. But, he's got no business in a 3-4. He plays small, isn't a great tackler and is about as non-physical as you'll find in an OLB.

This was one of Shanahan's bigger recent ****-ups.

Move him to SS - still a question mark for us - and put him in the secondary with his brother... it's a less tough position, too and he'll be less likely to be injured as well.

Woodyard will be a badass, too... one of those two needs to get a look at SS.

cutthemdown
04-18-2009, 07:41 PM
Move him to SS - still a question mark for us - and put him in the secondary with his brother... it's a less tough position, too and he'll be less likely to be injured as well.

Woodyard will be a badass, too... one of those two needs to get a look at SS.

It's not as easy of a transition as people seem to think from linebacker to a safety. Really takes a different skill set. 90% of playing defense is being able to react to the play, get yourself is position, make a play. Sure Woodyard size matches up with other safety's, but the question is how long will it take him to react quickly and correctly from safety spot going up against pros that know there position better then he knows his?

Can he turn his hips and change direction quick enough to get from run defense to pass defense and vice versa?

I think you will see Broncos remove a safety, maybe put woodyard in box as the SS, but mostly in short yardage. I think if they feel pass defense is the call it will be Dawkins and Hill. Those 2 just know those positions so well and have been playing it for years. I doubt Woodyard will catch them quickly in terms of reading the routes and making plays in the secondary.

theAPAOps5
04-18-2009, 08:25 PM
I got some secret footage of where he lined up in mini-camp this past week:

http://dsp.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p1026081p275w.jpg

Mogulseeker
04-18-2009, 08:46 PM
It's not as easy of a transition as people seem to think from linebacker to a safety. Really takes a different skill set. 90% of playing defense is being able to react to the play, get yourself is position, make a play. Sure Woodyard size matches up with other safety's, but the question is how long will it take him to react quickly and correctly from safety spot going up against pros that know there position better then he knows his?

Can he turn his hips and change direction quick enough to get from run defense to pass defense and vice versa?

I think you will see Broncos remove a safety, maybe put woodyard in box as the SS, but mostly in short yardage. I think if they feel pass defense is the call it will be Dawkins and Hill. Those 2 just know those positions so well and have been playing it for years. I doubt Woodyard will catch them quickly in terms of reading the routes and making plays in the secondary.

Woodyard is young... didn't he play safety in college? Or was that Bailey.

Anyway I myself made that transition. I played WLB my freshman year in HS... moved to FS when I went to varsity.

Cito Pelon
04-19-2009, 12:20 AM
This is not about Jay Cutler, so you should can the pit bull routine.

Besides, your argument is with simple math, not me. Leave me out of it .

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9004/40459851.jpg



WW is one inch taller and 10 pounds lighter than Al Wilson. Deal with it.

More like 20 lbs lighter, he has a slighter build. Whatever, you get all crazy sometimes. I do agree that WW is a darn good football player that I hope can find a place on the team. I like his playing style. No doubt the staff is looking to fit him in. Where that will be I don't know, but I'm sure the staff wants him to contribute.

cutthemdown
04-19-2009, 12:39 AM
Woodyard is young... didn't he play safety in college? Or was that Bailey.

Anyway I myself made that transition. I played WLB my freshman year in HS... moved to FS when I went to varsity.

I played both offense and defense but I wouldn't recommend it in the pros.

How many linebackers at pro level switched from wlb, to SS and then had a big career? I can't think of any. Usually by this level guys are at the right positions. You see some Qbs try safety but how many every work out?

A few olineman switch to dline and vice versa but not a lot, but you do see it.

I really have to say I see no chance of Woodyard being moved to the safety spot. Broncos may do some creative things and play him as a 5th linebacker with only 1 safety on the field, but I doubt you ever see Woodyard at SS in any of the base defense.

Woodyard is young but I just see things like this as very unlikely, mostly because you hardly ever see it. I'm sure there are some linebackers from college that switched to safety , but I can't think of any.

Archer81
04-19-2009, 12:39 AM
I would love it if our MLB's this season are Larsen and Woodyard, I think the two of them would be good in the middle. But we will see.

:Broncos:

cmhargrove
04-19-2009, 06:18 AM
Woodyard is young... didn't he play safety in college? Or was that Bailey.

Anyway I myself made that transition. I played WLB my freshman year in HS... moved to FS when I went to varsity.

Woodyard did play safety, but the coaches tried this near the end of the season last year and it was a huge liability. Woodyard is a linebacker - a really good one. He just needs to keep putting on weight. But, if anyone decided to listen to 400hz around here the past couple years, he has told us that San Diego has used "lighter" ILB's one very good defenses. If we get the D-line situated, then the ILB's are clean up men, where pursuit is more important than just size. The coaches say they want "instinctive" players that "react well under pressure." WW is definitely both those things.

As for the original post - Boss Bailey. I haven't heard much about his recovery. I am really hoping the team can reach an injury settlement with him and release him (without either side losing face).

Drek
04-19-2009, 06:34 AM
Excellent ... thanks. That does sound beauty, with Larsen and Peterson rotating in I hope.




(BTW, I know you have avatars turned off, but FYI you still have a Tim Crowder Longhorn avvy ::))
It'll be a constant rotation, every guy who makes it from first to probably third string will see action on game days. That means we'll have Larsen, Peterson, Crowder, Moss, etc. all rotating in.

Our defensive front seven doesn't have the talent right now to play honest, and it doesn't matter how much of our draft pool we spend on the front seven, short of getting a couple miracle selections we'll struggle to be even average there.

Nolan will have to use a lot of misdirection and masking in order to confuse the opposing QB and OC. We need versatility and that starts with guys who can be used in multiple facets of the defense without giving up big plays.

Its a big reason why I wouldn't be surprised if we took Raji, despite the boom/bust factor, if he's there at #12. He offers a lot in a hybird. Its also why I wouldn't be surprised if we took Malcolm Jenkins at #12. He's a lot like Antrel Rolle and will be able to play both FS and nickel CB immediately in the pros, which would put some versatility in how we can line up the defensive backfield without having to substitute personnel.

Of course this is just my personal guess based on some of the comments Nolan has made and the personnel we've brought in.