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DBBBSBS
04-15-2009, 05:00 PM
http://profootball.scout.com/

I was picking last weekend and i almost went the same order. I almost did 80% similar to this. Except for the fact that i let josh freeman drop out of 1st round. But the 2 picks by denver is the what i had

12 Jackson
18 Cushing.

How many of you think this draft can happen. I am very much sold now that KC got zach/vrebel and investedin QB they will go with OT and not the stud LB like this draft adresses

Discuss...

baja
04-15-2009, 05:09 PM
Another tidbit on the same link;

Early this month, the Chicago Bears paid a high price to end a long search for their franchise quarterback. The deal, which sent Jay Cutler to the Bears in exchange for Kyle Orton and a slew of draft picks, generated strong opinions regarding whether the price paid by the Monsters of the Midway was too high, or simply the going rate for a quarterback of Cutler’s stature.

Eyebrows were raised when the Bears met the Broncos' demand of two first-round picks (No. 18 in 2009 as well as the Bears’ No. 1 in 2010) in addition to a flip-flop of third- and fifth-rounders this year – plus Orton. Most NFL executives treat draft picks, especially early ones, like bars of the purest gold, and the Bears paid a steep price.

So, who got the better end of the Jay Cutler trade?

We posed this question to NFL fans on Scout.com via the web poll on the front page of the network’s NFL home page, and nearly 5,000 fans responded over the last week.

Their conclusion? By a narrow margin of 47.8% to 43.4%, Scout.com visitors felt that the Broncos bounty of draft picks had the edge. 8.8% of visitors felt that it was a fair trade, with both teams getting equal value.

The closeness of the results illustrate how critical the position of quarterback is considered to be in today’s NFL. After all, Scout visitors are essentially saying a proven and talented quarterback is roughly the equivalent of a talent injection of four players in the NFL draft, plus a veteran quarterback with a lesser arm. If Cutler leads the Bears to a Super Bowl win, fans won’t have much concern over the price the team paid.

This week, visit Scout.com’s NFL home page to show your prognostication skills as we ask visitors “Which draft pick will be the first to be invited to the Pro Bowl?”

Paladin
04-15-2009, 05:12 PM
What are the odds that the Bears fo to the SB this year?

Seem slim to me......

DBBBSBS
04-15-2009, 05:24 PM
What are the odds that the Bears fo to the SB this year?

Seem slim to me......

There odds of making SB is slim, but if they win the division we are at a loss. I would like them to finish anywhere around 6-10.

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Most NFL executives treat draft picks, especially early ones, like bars of the purest gold, and the Bears paid a steep price.

Great observation there, draft picks are such pie-in-the-sky. Half of even first-rounders bust out. Dont get me wrong, I like optimism, but reality has to sink in at some point, and the reality is we'll get:

1 Impact player
1 Contributor
1 Bust

And that's not worth a proven Pro Bowl quarterback.

DBBBSBS
04-15-2009, 05:35 PM
Great observation there, draft picks are such pie-in-the-sky. Half of even first-rounders bust out. Dont get me wrong, I like optimism, but reality has to sink in at some point, and the reality is we'll get:

1 Impact player
1 Contributor
1 Bust

And that's not worth a proven Pro Bowl quarterback.

May be.. But what if, just for argument... You find 3 great players with those picks. Trade the picks you got and accumulate and make it count for 3 impact players in 2-3 years. Then isn't is worth it. With or Without Jay we are not a SB contender. So lets drop that.

Also weren't you the one who was asking cant we all be happy and co-exist. If you want to co-exist why are all your threads trying to dig up past and argumentative ?

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 05:36 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.

Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are not worth Jay Cutler.


Now if Jim Goodman were still here, I'd have confidence we'll score on these picks, but Josh chased him off, too. So we're in uncharted waters with a very inexperienced group.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 05:37 PM
Great observation there, draft picks are such pie-in-the-sky. Half of even first-rounders bust out. Dont get me wrong, I like optimism, but reality has to sink in at some point, and the reality is we'll get:

1 Impact player
1 Contributor
1 Bust

And that's not worth a proven Pro Bowl quarterback.
Right.

Robert Irsay got two impact players and another throw in QB. Nobody thinks he won the trade.

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Also weren't you the one who was asking cant we all be happy and co-exist. If you want to co-exist why are all your threads trying to dig up past and argumentative ?

Yes I did say that, and I plan to do just that beginning this Friday night at midnight, one week before Dreaft Day, as promised. Blind fanatical fan-ness starts then ... but until then, reality will have to suffice ;D

I don't think I'm being "argumentative," I'm mostly stating facts and likelihoods.


*EDIT* - Great point, footsteps ... and that was a best-case scenario.

broncofan7
04-15-2009, 05:41 PM
That guy is an idiot--no way that AZ drafts a TE--they have Pope and Ben Patrick. I DO NOT like Tyson Jackson @12... he is a Marcus Spears clone--and Clay Matthews will be a 1st round bust.............I'd rather have Ayers @ 18........

Anaximines
04-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Half of even first-rounders bust out. Dont get me wrong, I like optimism, but reality has to sink in at some point, and the reality is we'll get:

1 Impact player
1 Contributor
1 Bust

And that's not worth a proven Pro Bowl quarterback.

Couldn't have said it better myself. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

chex
04-15-2009, 06:35 PM
Right.

Robert Irsay got two impact players and another throw in QB. Nobody thinks he won the trade.

Am I reading this incorrectly, or are you comparing Cutler to Elway?

chex
04-15-2009, 06:36 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.

Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are not worth Jay Cutler.




Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with the formula for this?

baja
04-15-2009, 06:40 PM
Am I reading this incorrectly, or are you comparing Cutler to Elway?

Ya imagine him implying Elway could even hold the jock of the great Cutler who passed for over 4,000 yards. and can rifle a pass between thee defenders and not have it intercepted most of the time. Heck the guy is 17 & 23 after only two years when did Elway ever have numbers like that plus he can throw harder than Elway and drink more beer too.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 06:40 PM
Am I reading this incorrectly, or are you comparing Cutler to Elway?
I know that's the cardinal sin here, but it's highly possible Cutler could win two Superbowls as well. The comparison is one of franchise QB's being swapped for draft picks. Irsay hit on two pro bowlers...he still got screwed.

chex
04-15-2009, 06:43 PM
I know that's the cardinal sin here, but it's highly possible Cutler could win two Superbowls as well. The comparison is one of franchise QB's being swapped for draft picks. Irsay hit on two pro bowlers...he still got screwed.

Cutler could win two Super Bowls, but he will never be another Elway, and I say this as a football fan, not a Broncos fan. You are wayyyyyyy overrating Cutler IMO on this. Elway? Come on.....

baja
04-15-2009, 06:45 PM
Ya and if Cutler is half the QB Elway was than we will all agree with you but moopy is no Elway not even close. Talk to me in 5 years if he is even still in the league which I doubt unless he makes a big turn around.

Cutler will FAIL save this post and show it to me in a couple years for a good laugh or a "You were right" post.....

snowspot66
04-15-2009, 06:46 PM
Right.

Robert Irsay got two impact players and another throw in QB. Nobody thinks he won the trade.

And Jay Cutler is a HoF QB now? The only reason nobody thinks he won the trade is because Elway became arguably the best ever. Cutler will never be that.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 06:47 PM
Cutler could win two Super Bowls, but he will never be another Elway, and I say this as a football fan, not a Broncos fan. You are wayyyyyyy overrating Cutler IMO on this. Elway? Come on.....
Did I say he was another Elway? His skill set is similar, but that's not the point; that being the history of franchise QB's traded for draft picks and what is done with those picks, in this case...Irsay hitting on both but still living to regret the move. You admit Cutler could win 2 Superbowls...if he does, you won't care what we got in return.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 06:49 PM
And Jay Cutler is a HoF QB now? The only reason nobody thinks he won the trade is because Elway became arguably the best ever. Cutler will never be that.
You too, are missing the point.

baja
04-15-2009, 06:51 PM
Did I say he was another Elway? His skill set is similar, but that's not the point; that being the history of franchise QB's traded for draft picks and what is done with those picks, in this case...Irsay hitting on both but still living to regret the move. You admit Cutler could win 2 Superbowls...if he does, you won't care what we got in return.

Mean while we could win 6 without him. Dude you got this kid so blown out of proportion it is sad to read.

Fact he is under 500

Fact, he did not even call Bowlen

Fact, he deserted his team

Fact, he continually makes bad decisions on the field

Fact, he has health issues

Fact, he is a poor leader

chex
04-15-2009, 06:53 PM
Did I say he was another Elway? His skill set is similar, but that's not the point; that being the history of franchise QB's traded for draft picks and what is done with those picks, in this case...Irsay hitting on both but still living to regret the move. You admit Cutler could win 2 Superbowls...if he does, you won't care what we got in return.

What exactly makes Cutler a franchise QB anyway? At what point was it determined he was ordained a franchise QB? When I think of franchise QB's in today's NFL, I think Manning or Brady. Maybe Roethlisberger. These guys have won. Just throwing for alot of yards playing catch up with what everyone admits is a lousy defense doesn't make anyone a franchise QB. Until Cutler starts winning meaningful games, winning playoff games, winning games he has no business winning, making you slap your forehead in amazement at his accomplishments, he is not a franchise QB IMO.

And when I said Cutler could win two Super Bowls, it was not in the context that I expect him too, but rather even if he did, he STILL won't be another Elway.

halfcreek
04-15-2009, 06:58 PM
I know that's the cardinal sin here, but it's highly possible Cutler could win two Superbowls as well. The comparison is one of franchise QB's being swapped for draft picks. Irsay hit on two pro bowlers...he still got screwed.

Not if Elway played baseball as threatened.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 07:02 PM
What exactly makes Cutler a franchise QB anyway? At what point was it determined he was ordained a franchise QB? When I think of franchise QB's in today's NFL, I think Manning or Brady. Maybe Roethlisberger. These guys have won. Just throwing for alot of yards playing catch up with what everyone admits is a lousy defense doesn't make anyone a franchise QB. Until Cutler starts winning meaningful games, winning playoff games, winning games he has no business winning, making you slap your forehead in amazement at his accomplishments, he is not a franchise QB IMO.

And when I said Cutler could win two Super Bowls, it was not in the context that I expect him too, but rather even if he did, he STILL won't be another Elway.
No quarterback characterized as a "franchise" QB by pro scouts has won a single NFL game. Based on talent, Cutler's a franchise quarterback. He has all the tools...as did Elway. Of the players you listed, every one has a superior team around him, something Cutler did not have.

Quarterbacks are not pitchers...even Elway never won it all without a team around him.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 07:04 PM
Not if Elway played baseball as threatened.
True...which means unlike Bowlen, Irsay actually had an legitimate excuse.

broncosteven
04-15-2009, 07:20 PM
Mean while we could win 6 without him. Dude you got this kid so blown out of proportion it is sad to read.

Fact he is under 500

Funny how it is a team game but Cutler wins and loses the games on his own.

Fact, he did not even call Bowlen

Bowlen lied to him about Bates, then the FO lied to him about listening to trade offers, then MickyD wouldn't call Cutler...

Fact, he deserted his team

BS He wanted out after being lied to repeatedly

Fact, he continually makes bad decisions on the field

His TD to INT career #'s are 54 TD's to 37 INTS Johns 1st 3 years:
Year 1 7 TDs, 14 INTs
Year 2 18 TD's 15 INTs
Year 3 22 TD's and 23 INTS
People thought he could not win the big games because he threw lots of picks early

Fact, he has health issues

Diabetes is not anywhere like what TD had. It can be controlled and he played at a very high level last year. Someone is reaching for straws.

Fact, he is a poor leader

When his teachers are like John Lynch You can't expect much from the pupils.



Is that all you can come up with? The guy is just as happy in Chicago as Plummer is in the Sandy Pointe Idaho Mens rec league lockerroom snapping towels at guys asses.

chex
04-15-2009, 07:29 PM
Of the players you listed, every one has a superior team around him, something Cutler did not have.



This is what confuses me. The pro Shanahan/pro Cutler crowd claimed getting rid of either was a mistake because we had a powerhouse offense, and getting rid of Shanahan and not trying to keep Bates disrupted what was supposedly a championship caliber offense. If Cutler had a supporting cast on offense that he has now with Chicago, and somehow squeezed out 4,000 yards, you might have a case. But with everyone saying our offense, with a strong OL, and excellent receiving options all around, was just about completed, how impressive is it for a QB to put up big stats?

And please, don't compare Cutler to Elway in any way, shape, or form. Not because Elway is considered a sacred cow, but because it's just foolish. Elway is arguably the greatest QB in NFL history, and yet, no matter how shallow the comparison, you're comparing Cutler favorably to him, with his 17 career wins. Stats are for losers. People remember Elway for his wins, for pulling games out of his ass. I doubt many outside Denver know or care about his career stats.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 07:34 PM
Mean while we could win 6 without him. Dude you got this kid so blown out of proportion it is sad to read.

Fact he is under 500

Fact, he did not even call Bowlen

Fact, he deserted his team

Fact, he continually makes bad decisions on the field

Fact, he has health issues

Fact, he is a poor leader
Fact...most of your "facts" are not facts.

TheDave
04-15-2009, 07:34 PM
The fact is nobody knows who won this... We grab a couple of pro-bowl players at key positions and we probably have the upperhand. Bust out on these picks and we will most likely be the butt of Jokes for a long time.

As for the draft picks, I would be fine with that haul...

chex
04-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Fact...most of your "facts" are not facts.

So Cutler is not under.500 for his career?

So Cutler didn't figuratively flip off Bowlen?

So Cutler doesn't make bad decisions? (what QB doesn't??!!)

So Cutler doesn't have health issues?


Are these the facts that were listed that you are disputing?

eddie mac
04-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.

Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are not worth Jay Cutler.


Now if Jim Goodman were still here, I'd have confidence we'll score on these picks, but Josh chased him off, too. So we're in uncharted waters with a very inexperienced group.

Wilson was a 31st pick, Brandon, the last pick in the 4th round and Crowder a 56th pick. How on earth do you compare that to an 18 pick, mid 3rd rounder and a 1st next year, nevermind Kyle Orton, a pretty decent starter, who has more wins than losses in that dept.

broncosteven
04-15-2009, 07:44 PM
So Cutler is not under.500 for his career?

So Cutler didn't figuratively flip off Bowlen?

So Cutler doesn't make bad decisions? (what QB doesn't??!!)

So Cutler doesn't have health issues?


Are these the facts that were listed that you are disputing?

Cutler played on a D that never was ranked lower than 20. If Cutler pulled a Larsen and played LB or S in the Buff game then maybe I would count his record against him. At last count he had a Defense ranked 30th in the league which could only get him one stop in the Buff game and gave up 52 in the penultimate game at SD.

Plummer flipped us off but every one loves him.
Bowlen LIED to Cutler repeatedly

There are lots of NFL players that played or have played with Asthma, various STD's, and Diabeties. It is harder to play on a torn up knee or the clap or crabs than with a controllable disease.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 07:46 PM
This is what confuses me. The pro Shanahan/pro Cutler crowd claimed getting rid of either was a mistake because we had a powerhouse offense, and getting rid of Shanahan and not trying to keep Bates disrupted what was supposedly a championship caliber offense.
First of all, I don't fit into your box. I've been both a Shanahan critic and an admirer on this board...critic from my first post in fact. I called for Shanahan to get axed...I NEVER said the same about Cutler, so you need a 3rd category; Cutler supporter/need a new coach also. Second; I never called for keeping Bates either. In fact when most people in here were talking about hiring Spags for the defense and talking like we only needed a puppet who would keep the offensive coaches, I specifically stated that it was foolish to hire a coach and not allow him to hire his own people. I still believe that.
If Cutler had a supporting cast on offense that he has now with Chicago, and somehow squeezed out 4,000 yards, you might have a case. But with everyone saying our offense, with a strong OL, and excellent receiving options all around, was just about completed, how impressive is it for a QB to put up big stats?
Jake Plummer had a superior won/loss record...and he was almost universally scorned in here his final season. I was the first person on this board to suggest that Cutler, based on his talent and Shanahan's brass ones with QB's...would start as a rookie, and I stated so right after the draft. As an untested rookie Cutler took over an offense far inferior to the one he now has in Chicago with the 2006 team and he produced 7 points/game more than Plummer. Unfortunately...as has been the case his entire time here...his head coach had no idea how to field a defense and his DC had no idea how to coach one. Cutler went into each game knowing he had to score on almost every possession; something BTW...that John Elway NEVER had to do...EVER. For all Elway's greatness, had he played with this utter crap this guy's had to support him on the defensive side of the ball, he'd have probably fared no better.
And please, don't compare Cutler to Elway in any way, shape, or form. Not because Elway is considered a sacred cow, but because it's just foolish. Elway is arguably the greatest QB in NFL history, and yet, no matter how shallow the comparison, you're comparing Cutler favorably to him, with his 17 career wins. Stats are for losers. People remember Elway for his wins, for pulling games out of his ass. I doubt many outside Denver know or care about his career stats.
Like most in here, you're unable to understand the basis of this argument, which has nothing to do with Elway.

chex
04-15-2009, 07:52 PM
For all Elway's greatness, had he played with this utter crap this guy's had to support him on the defensive side of the ball, he'd have probably fared no better.

Like most in here, you're unable to understand the basis of this argument, which has nothing to do with Elway.

And if Cutler had to play with the utter crap Elway had on offense most of his career, then what?

And dude, I understand quite well. Don't throw out Elway's name in comparison like you've done in a bunch of posts here, then backpedal when called on it. YOU were the first one to drop Elway's name. Why even bring his name up? But it's easier to pull the "you just don't understand" card, trying to convince yourself and others that you "get it" and no one else does.

baja
04-15-2009, 07:54 PM
Is that all you can come up with? The guy is just as happy in Chicago as Plummer is in the Sandy Pointe Idaho Mens rec league lockerroom snapping towels at guys asses.

Being a Libra I can see how one can easily see it that way but the other view point is equally compelling. The difference maker when deciding which side to believe to me is Pat Bowlen. Dude's got the Rep.

Anyway it's not going to be boring.

chex
04-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Unfortunately...as has been the case his entire time here...his head coach had no idea how to field a defense and his DC had no idea how to coach one.


And yet the head coach you speak of, how many of his starting QB's had losing records in 'his entire time here'. Besides Cutler I mean.

cmhargrove
04-15-2009, 07:59 PM
I guess every thread, regardless of title, is now a Cutler thread.
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

RMT
04-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.

Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are not worth Jay Cutler.


Now if Jim Goodman were still here, I'd have confidence we'll score on these picks, but Josh chased him off, too. So we're in uncharted waters with a very inexperienced group.

oh, yeah, our drafts have been so "great" now for several years with the "experienced" guys leading the way :nono:

Rohirrim
04-15-2009, 08:02 PM
Jay Cutler forced his way out of town. I don't get why people are still haggling over this. Like Pat said - It was clear that Jay didn't want to be in Denver anymore. So, a deal got worked out to make both sides happy. Now, we move on.

RMT
04-15-2009, 08:04 PM
Cutler played on a D that never was ranked lower than 20. If Cutler pulled a Larsen and played LB or S in the Buff game then maybe I would count his record against him. At last count he had a Defense ranked 30th in the league which could only get him one stop in the Buff game and gave up 52 in the penultimate game at SD.

Plummer flipped us off but every one loves him.
Bowlen LIED to Cutler repeatedly

There are lots of NFL players that played or have played with Asthma, various STD's, and Diabeties. It is harder to play on a torn up knee or the clap or crabs than with a controllable disease.

he isn't playing for a team that had a defense ranked below #20 last year either. the bears were #21 last year and #26 the year before, so can we finally put to rest to all the talk about the bears "good defense" - because it isn't ... if anything, their strength of schedule (or lack thereof) of #32 will be their best asset.

Pony Boy
04-15-2009, 08:17 PM
The fact is nobody knows who won this... We grab a couple of pro-bowl players at key positions and we probably have the upperhand. Bust out on these picks and we will most likely be the butt of Jokes for a long time.

As for the draft picks, I would be fine with that haul...

:thumbsup: You nailed it

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 08:17 PM
Are these the facts that were listed that you are disputing?
Yes...your "facts" are distortions of the truth. Observe:
So Cutler is not under.500 for his career?
#1- Won/lost records for QB's are unreliable, especially for young guys. These guys are not pitchers in baseball who have the ability to win or lose on the strength of mostly their own efforts, and Plummer won because he had great running game and a defense to play with him, so your "fact" amounts to a big pile of BS...irrelevant. BTW...In Peyton Manning's first four seasons, he went 32-34. Since you say Cutler's a loser...would you have said so about Manning also?
So Cutler didn't figuratively flip off Bowlen?
#2- Bowlen's proved beyond a doubt he's willing to lie, which is the one thing that IS A FACT...so who knows what actually happened? Not you...or anyone else on this board except the two of them.
So Cutler doesn't make bad decisions? (what QB doesn't??!!)
All young QB's make their fair share...obviously. His INT % is the same (3.0) as Kyle "Brady" Orton. If you want a better example, your boy Manning threw 81 picks his first four seasons...so this "fact" has no bearing on his future possibilities for success. This this is true, what's your point? That Cutler had to take chances to overcome the worst D in the league? That "fact" is useless information.
So Cutler doesn't have health issues?
Nothing that will keep him from being a great player.

You have two that are true of Manning, so they're irrelevant, one that's unprovable, one that has no bearing on anything.

Congratulations.

RMT
04-15-2009, 08:19 PM
First of all, I don't fit into your box. I've been both a Shanahan critic and an admirer on this board...critic from my first post in fact. I called for Shanahan to get axed...I NEVER said the same about Cutler, so you need a 3rd category; Cutler supporter/need a new coach also. Second; I never called for keeping Bates either. In fact when most people in here were talking about hiring Spags for the defense and talking like we only needed a puppet who would keep the offensive coaches, I specifically stated that it was foolish to hire a coach and not allow him to hire his own people. I still believe that.

Jake Plummer had a superior won/loss record...and he was almost universally scorned in here his final season. I was the first person on this board to suggest that Cutler, based on his talent and Shanahan's brass ones with QB's...would start as a rookie, and I stated so right after the draft. As an untested rookie Cutler took over an offense far inferior to the one he now has in Chicago with the 2006 team and he produced 7 points/game more than Cutler. Unfortunately...as has been the case his entire time here...his head coach had no idea how to field a defense and his DC had no idea how to coach one. Cutler went into each game knowing he had to score on almost every possession; something BTW...that John Elway NEVER had to do...EVER. For all Elway's greatness, had he played with this utter crap this guy's had to support him on the defensive side of the ball, he'd have probably fared no better.

Like most in here, you're unable to understand the basis of this argument, which has nothing to do with Elway.

Elway did play on some team's with awful defenses. In 1994 the defense finished dead last (#28 out of 28 teams before expansion). A number of other times during his career, the defense was in the high teens and 20s. What Elway didn't have was a better supporting cast on the offensive side of the ball. That's why he had to carry the offense so much.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 08:51 PM
And yet the head coach you speak of, how many of his starting QB's had losing records in 'his entire time here'. Besides Cutler I mean.
Griese was 16-19 his first three seasons...finished 24-24 a year later, barely different from Cutler. He never played with a defense as bad as the one's Cutler did. Is there a point here?

CHANGSTER
04-15-2009, 09:04 PM
I remember when this thread was about a mock draft. Seems so long ago in post #1.

Anyways. I'd be pretty content with that first round. Not thrilled, but its decent.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 09:20 PM
Elway did play on some team's with awful defenses. In 1994 the defense finished dead last (#28 out of 28 teams before expansion). A number of other times during his career, the defense was in the high teens and 20s. What Elway didn't have was a better supporting cast on the offensive side of the ball. That's why he had to carry the offense so much.
And in 1994 the team also finished 7-9 with that defense, and finished 8-8 the following year with a D that finished 15th in points and 17th in yards. During the run of '96-'98 when they won big...the defense finished 4th/yards and 7th/points (96), 5th/yards and 6th/points (97), and 11th/yards and 8th/points (98). On John's other Superbowl teams the results were similar. The '86 team finished 9th/yards and 15th/points '87 team finished 9th/points and 7th/yards. In other words, Elway played on 5 teams that went to the Superbowl and those 5 teams collective defenses finished in the top ten in 8 of 10 possible statistical categories for either yards or points.

This is a perfect example of why QB won/lost records are very over ranked. Elway never went to the Superbowl without a good defense.

cabronco
04-15-2009, 09:50 PM
Was it just me , or did Cutler look less than excited the day the broncos picked him off the board. No real point here, besides maybe the Broncs were last on his ...go to list ?

DBBBSBS
04-15-2009, 10:27 PM
I remember when this thread was about a mock draft. Seems so long ago in post #1.

Anyways. I'd be pretty content with that first round. Not thrilled, but its decent.

ha ha ha.. glad you tried, some people try to make everything a cutler thread and as soon as footsteps comes into a thread that goes to s**t soon and so did this one

DarkHorse30
04-15-2009, 10:28 PM
And please, don't compare Cutler to Elway in any way, shape, or form. Not because Elway is considered a sacred cow, but because it's just foolish. Elway is arguably the greatest QB in NFL history, and yet, no matter how shallow the comparison, you're comparing Cutler favorably to him, with his 17 career wins. Stats are for losers. People remember Elway for his wins, for pulling games out of his ass. I doubt many outside Denver know or care about his career stats.

Bingo. Cutler has an arm that can make fantastic throws.....and a brain that moves him towards a hissy fit whenever something pisses him off......and that hissy fit often leads to poor play.

Back up to his first half season. Denver has a chance to go to the playoffs if Cutler MANAGES to win some games down the stretch. You could say he whiffed, but he's a rookie so mistakes happen, whatever, he has a great arm.

Yet, somehow during those first games he gets himself into a pissing contest with Philip Rivers (aka "man-who-throws-like-girl"). Then last year, the overblown-Rivers-hissy turns into a news item. Meanwhile, SD kills Denver every time they play.

Fast forward to 3 games left last year, up by 3. All our QB has to do is win one game out of those 3. Whiff, whiff, and then a major whiff against the team whose QB owns him and laughs about it.

Then during the offseason Cutler gets his pants in a bunch demands a trade, because apparently the new HC didn't bow down for his worshipfulness.

Am I supposed to miss this guy?

Dagmar
04-15-2009, 10:32 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.

Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are not worth Jay Cutler.


Now if Jim Goodman were still here, I'd have confidence we'll score on these picks, but Josh chased him off, too. So we're in uncharted waters with a very inexperienced group.

EVERY ****ING THREAD. Jesus dude. What happened to you?

Every single thread. Our own Bob.

baja
04-15-2009, 10:33 PM
Bingo. Cutler has an arm that can make fantastic throws.....and a brain that moves him towards a hissy fit whenever something pisses him off......and that hissy fit often leads to poor play.

Back up to his first half season. Denver has a chance to go to the playoffs if Cutler MANAGES to win some games down the stretch. You could say he whiffed, but he's a rookie so mistakes happen, whatever, he has a great arm.

Yet, somehow during those first games he gets himself into a pissing contest with Philip Rivers (aka "man-who-throws-like-girl"). Then last year, the overblown-Rivers-hissy turns into a news item. Meanwhile, SD kills Denver every time they play.

Fast forward to 3 games left last year, up by 3. All our QB has to do is win one game out of those 3. Whiff, whiff, and then a major whiff against the team whose QB owns him and laughs about it.

Then during the offseason Cutler gets his pants in a bunch demands a trade, because apparently the new HC didn't bow down for his worshipfulness.

Am I supposed to miss this guy?

But all the pretty passes, what about all the pretty passes?

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 11:29 PM
Al Wilson, Sam Brandon and Tim Crowder are a good approximation of what we'll get with those picks.Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with your formula for this?

You've exposed yourself as looking for a fight, sir: You use the word "formula" to try to pin me into a corner, inferring I had made a statement based upon fact, and thus that I was espousing a "formula" you could attack. But you didn't read my post closely enough. All I said was it's an "approximation" of what we'll get. An approximation based on a fatual analysis of the history of draft picks. Our last 10 1st-round picks:

Marcus Nash
Deltha O'Neal
Al Wilson
Willie Middlebrooks
George Foster
Ashley Lelie
D.J. Williams
Jay Cutler
Jarvis Moss
Ryan Clady

3 Impact players (Cutler, Clady, Wilson)
..(D.J. halfway between impact and contributor)
3 Contributors (Deltha, Foster, Lelie)
3 Busts (Nash, Middlebrooks, Moss)

I used Sam Brandon as a "contributor" example, Tim Crowder as a "bust" example, and Al Wilson as an impact example, all fair applicaions of those labels when seen in light of this 10-year list.

So there you have it, facts facts facts. I am stating facts and making the prudent inference that we will likely replicate that 1-1-1 history with our two #1s and one #3 (despite the inexperience of our front office, and despite the fact one of the picks is a 3rd, not a 1st). Please tell me you understand the basic, factual analysis I've made here, and please respond with substantive discussion that relies on facts.

Thanking you in advance,

BroncoBuff

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 11:42 PM
Did I say he was another Elway? His skill set is similar, but that's not the point; that being the history of franchise QB's traded for draft picks and what is done with those picks, in this case...Irsay hitting on both but still living to regret the move. You admit Cutler could win 2 Superbowls...if he does, you won't care what we got in return.

You have no need to defend yourself ... yours was a VERY relevant and pointed comparison. Not only was the Elway trade near-identical (Elway for two #1s and a basically mediocre QB), but the results were best case scenario all the way around.

John Elway went to 5 Super Bowls on his way to a Hall of Fame career as one of the Top 5 quarterbacks ever.

Chris Hinton and Ron Solt (the Colts' two 1st rounders) both blossomed into Pro Bowl linemen, and Hinton is still oft-named on HOF snub lists.

So both teams received basically best-case scenarios. Mark Hermann never did too much as a QB, I think he started a handful of games in Indy, but was mostly a backup and left the team after they drafted Jeff George.


Don't defend yourself footsteps ... that was a VERY similar trade, and an apt comparison. The difference is Cutler has already proven himself a Pro-Bowler, while our two #1s are a long way from Chris Hinton and Ron Solt. The 1983 trade was ALL unknown quantities ... while this trade was the classic "bird in the hand vs. two in the bush."

BroncoBuff
04-15-2009, 11:51 PM
I know that's the cardinal sin here, but it's highly possible Cutler could win two Superbowls as well. The comparison is one of franchise QB's being swapped for draft picks. Irsay hit on two pro bowlers...he still got screwed.And please, don't compare Cutler to Elway in any way, shape, or form. Not because Elway is considered a sacred cow, but because it's just foolish.

Good points, I agree. But the comparison is not Elway vs. Cutler, the comparison is trade vs. trade. And we won that trade EVEN THOUGH THE COLTS GOT BEST CASE SCENARIO! You see? So even if we get Al Wilson and Ryan Clady quality players, we will STILL LOSE if Jay continues a reasonably long career dotted with Pro Bowls. See? Jay dosen't have to be as good as John for us to lose this trade.

footsep's comparison is a very good one, and not all that complicated, chex. Throwing up "Saint John" is just a smokescreen to avoid making a reasonable and factual comparison of the two trades.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 11:53 PM
And if Cutler had to play with the utter crap Elway had on offense most of his career, then what?

And dude, I understand quite well. Don't throw out Elway's name in comparison like you've done in a bunch of posts here, then backpedal when called on it. YOU were the first one to drop Elway's name. Why even bring his name up? But it's easier to pull the "you just don't understand" card, trying to convince yourself and others that you "get it" and no one else does.
Some do get it...you don't. It's not about Elway; it's about pointing out the relative danger in assuming that taking draft picks for a super talented NFL QB with these kind of skills can bite you in the butt. As Buff points out, our history wit #1 picks is sketchy at best...and now we're working with rookie FO people as well.

footstepsfrom#27
04-16-2009, 12:04 AM
You have no need to defend yourself ... yours was a VERY relevant and pointed comparison. Not only was the Elway trade near-identical (Elway for two #1s and a basically mediocre QB), but the results were best case scenario all the way around.

John Elway went to 5 Super Bowls on his way to a Hall of Fame career as one of the Top 5 quarterbacks ever.

Chris Hinton and Ron Solt (the Colts' two 1st rounders) both blossomed into Pro Bowl linemen, and Hinton is still oft-named on HOF snub lists.

So both teams received basically best-case scenarios. Mark Hermann never did too much as a QB, I think he started a handful of games in Indy, but was mostly a backup and left the team after they drafted Jeff George.


Don't defend yourself footsteps ... that was a VERY similar trade, and an apt comparison. The difference is Cutler has already proven himself a Pro-Bowler, while our two #1s are a long way from Chris Hinton and Ron Solt. The 1983 trade was ALL unknown quantities ... while this trade was the classic "bird in the hand vs. two in the bush."
Buff that's a great point; one I hadn't even thought of. At the time of the trade, nobody knew for sure what Elway would become...suppose he'd blown out a knee like TD or failed miserably like Ryan Leaf? Irsay gambled on losing a great QB...but his gamble was only related to potential...not an established pro bowl player. QB's with Cutler like skills are rare, and the opportunity to get one comes along only rarely.

BroncoBuff
04-16-2009, 12:05 AM
Wilson was a 31st pick, Brandon, the last pick in the 4th round and Crowder a 56th pick. How on earth do you compare that to an 18 pick, mid 3rd rounder and a 1st next year, nevermind Kyle Orton, a pretty decent starter, who has more wins than losses in that dept.

Dude, please ... OBVIOUSLY I was comparing their results, not where they were drafted. What I said was, we'll probably get "1 impact player, 1 contributor, and 1 bust," and then I proceeded to list examples of each, all on defense because that's where we'll focus in the draft (probably).

And I wasn't talking about Orton, I wastalking about the draft picks. Orton does have a fine W-L pct, but he is not even an established starting quarterback in the NFL ... he has been benched several times on a QB-weak team.

footstepsfrom#27
04-16-2009, 12:31 AM
Dude, please ... OBVIOUSLY I was comparing their results, not where they were drafted. What I said was, we'll probably get "1 impact player, 1 contributor, and 1 bust," and then I proceeded to list examples of each, all on defense because that's where we'll focus in the draft (probably).

And I wasn't talking about Orton, I wastalking about the draft picks. Orton does have a fine W-L pct, but he is not even an established starting quarterback in the NFL ... he has been benched several times on a QB-weak team.
All this yammering about the W-L record...we got rid of a guy who had a more impressive record than Orton because we knew he'd never take us to the next level...something Lovie Smith seems to think about Orton as well.

cutthemdown
04-16-2009, 12:55 AM
If Cutler goes on to have a career even close to Elways we are screwed. Chances are he won't attain such lofty status.

How fun it will be to watch in unfold, too bad it will take 10 yrs.