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View Full Version : 10 years later, the real story behind Columbine


Boobs McGee
04-14-2009, 07:10 PM
Full article here :


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer


some excerpts:

They weren't goths or loners.
The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."



In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand if badly implemented terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.

"He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.

So whom did they hope to kill?

Everyone including friends.



Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges.

"These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."




Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

Harris, a senior, read voraciously and got good grades when he tried, pleasing his teachers with dazzling prose then writing in his journal about killing thousands.

"I referred to him and I'm dating myself as the Eddie Haskel of Columbine High School," says Principal Frank DeAngelis, referring to the deceptively polite teen on the 1950s and '60s sitcom Leave it to Beaver. "He was the type of kid who, when he was in front of adults, he'd tell you what you wanted to hear."

When he wasn't, he mixed napalm in the kitchen .




The Secret Service found that school shooters usually tell other kids about their plans.

"Other students often even egg them on," says Newman, who led a congressionally mandated study on school shootings. "Then they end up with this escalating commitment. It's not a sudden snapping."

Langman, whose book profiles 10 shooters, including Harris and Klebold, found that nine suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts, a "potentially dangerous" combination, he says. "It is hard to prevent murder when killers do not care if they live or die. It is like trying to stop a suicide bomber."

At the time, Columbine became a kind of giant national Rorschach test. Observers saw its genesis in just about everything: lax parenting, lax gun laws, progressive schooling, repressive school culture, violent video games, antidepressant drugs and rock 'n' roll, for starters.

Many of the Columbine myths emerged before the shooting stopped, as rumors, misunderstandings and wishful thinking swirled in an echo chamber among witnesses, survivors, officials and the news media.

Police contributed to the mess by talking to reporters before they knew facts a hastily called news conference by the Jefferson County sheriff that afternoon produced the first headline: "Twenty-five dead in Colorado."

A few inaccuracies took hours to clear up, but others took weeks or months sometimes years as authorities reluctantly set the record straight.


Since 1999, many people have looked to the boys' parents for answers, but a transcript of their 2003 court-ordered deposition to the victims' parents remains sealed until 2027.

The Klebolds spoke to New York Times columnist David Brooks in 2004 and impressed Brooks as "a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple" who spent plenty of time with their son. They said they had no clues about Dylan's mental state and regretted not seeing that he was suicidal.

Could the parents have prevented the massacre? The FBI special agent in charge of the investigation has gone on record as having "the utmost sympathy" for the Harris and Klebold families.

"They have been vilified without information," retired supervisory special agent Dwayne Fuselier tells Cullen.

Cullen, who has spent most of the past decade poring over the record, comes away with a bit of sympathy.

For one thing, he notes, Harris' parents "knew they had a problem they thought they were dealing with it. What kind of parent is going to think, 'Well, maybe Eric's a mass murderer.' You just don't go there."

He got a good look at the boys' writings only in the past couple of years. Among the revelations: Eric Harris was financing what could well have been the biggest domestic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on wages from a part-time job at a pizza parlor.

"One of the scary things is that money was one of the limiting factors here," Cullen says.














Wow. From what I gathered, they were basically planning a terrorist attack on a major scale. Didn't realize how much worse it could have been.

Boobs McGee
04-14-2009, 07:31 PM
And one of the scariest parts for me, is the section regarding the parents.

I have no kids (yet), but couldn't even imagine how horrible it would feel to know that your child was a murdering psycopath. The harris' parents had no idea, and the cleibold parents were trying to work through the problems.

It's a scary thought, not being able to reach your own child...not even KNOWING there was a problem, until it's too late.

Obviously my thoughts and prayers have gone and continue to go out to everyone involved.

TheDave
04-14-2009, 07:41 PM
as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...

FADERPROOF
04-14-2009, 07:46 PM
Blame Marilyn Manson, take the easy way out.

Boobs McGee
04-14-2009, 07:46 PM
as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...


That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a sociopath , and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.

TheDave
04-14-2009, 07:52 PM
That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a psycopath, and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.

I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.

Man-Goblin
04-14-2009, 07:59 PM
This is tough stuff for me to read. I didn't even realize we were coming up on the 10th anniversary.

I graduated from Columbine the year before the shootings and was still living at home going to college my freshman year. Obviously, that was one of the worst days of my life and for that community. I can still remember vividly waiting with my best friend at our old elementary school for hours upon hours as his sister was trapped in the school.

As for the revelation that they weren't in the trenchcoat mafia, I guess I always assumed they were, but it doesn't really matter. This article stating that these two kids were deeply disturbed is in no way a revelation, though, and don't think there is much value in trying to learn from their actions in an attempt to prevent occurances like this in the future. I mean, how can you predict the actions of a psychopath?

FADERPROOF
04-14-2009, 08:00 PM
I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.

Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.

TheDave
04-14-2009, 08:02 PM
Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.

100% agree...

NFLBRONCO
04-14-2009, 08:06 PM
as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...


They didn't notice stuff in garage or anything lying around the house. 98% of kids aren't neat. Then when parents were called into school they saw no red flag on paper he wrote.

footstepsfrom#27
04-14-2009, 08:11 PM
That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a sociopath , and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.
I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.

Archer81
04-14-2009, 08:22 PM
Easier to blame other things. No one likes to think teenagers are capable of evil on their own.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
04-14-2009, 08:24 PM
As Chris Rock once said...."whatever happened to crazy!"

baja
04-14-2009, 08:40 PM
I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.

As I have shared before on here I am a fairly well traveled person with some living on the street experience and for some reason people tell me their story well I am here to tell ya there are some scary Joses' out there that seem very normal but that is far far from what they really are and it is always a surprise when the truth comes out. I used to hitch hike back in the 70's and hitched across the country twice. I got a ride in Northern California by a guy who at first seemed like a good old local area boy that was friendly enough. We talking back and forth with some small talk when all of a sudden he picks up a Bowie knife from beside a center console add on and points it at my neck and says I could kill you right now and nobody would ever know. Naturally it scared the crap out of me but I managed to play in cool and just sort of joked it off. Well I guess he decided I was al right and thats when He started to tell me his sicking story. He told me he was child molester, he went on to say that nobody understood but those children really loved him and he loved them. That went on for a short time than all of a sudden he stopped talking and got a very dark look on his face and I knew he was thinking about trying to kill me. All I could think to do was to look him in the eye and say I wanted out of the car and just kept my eyes burning into his head. i got lucky he we were coming up on a small town and i said, "Drop me at that gas station?.He did and that were the last words ever spoken and he drove away. I didn't get the license plate # put it was a beat up old Chevy truck. I know I came within a whisper of a serious confrontation. I told the guy at the gas station about the guy and he said he saw that truck around from time to time and he would call the cops. Moral of the story for me, Do not assume people think anything like you do. As an older person I can say nothing surprises me any more.

Kaylore
04-14-2009, 08:41 PM
Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

This reads like Harris was Lord Voldemort.

Boobs McGee
04-14-2009, 08:58 PM
Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.

While I agree completely, that last part is exactly what I'm trying to describe. You sit your 5 year old down everyday, ask him how his friends are, how his day was...things that I think are an integral part of human development. Daliy interaction, love...but the scary part to me is that even WITH all of that positive attention, there is a possiblity that (through no fault of your own), the child could have deep rooted psychological problems that he/she hides.

Obviously, I plan on having children someday, CANT WAIT!!!(well, I can't wait!, but i can wait haha), but it's knowledge like this that just gets the gears turning in my head about parenthood, the unexpected in life, etc etc. I don't think any of it should be used as an excuse to NOT have kids, but I seriously ponder the things I'm going to teach my own someday, and the hope I reserve that everything I do will help them to become happy and healthy in life.

Boobs McGee
04-14-2009, 09:03 PM
I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.

well said.


Is that still the case? The treatment protocol by the shrinks I mean...drugging them up after blaming them for the problems? That just seems completely assinine to me! But, it begs the question...what kind of treatment can you give a true sociopath? Did you ever see positive results, a remission of the sociopathic tendencies if you will?

BigPlayShay
04-14-2009, 09:31 PM
I worked at a pizza place near Columbine for a couple years before the shootings, and I worked with a bunch of kids that went to Columbine. The "Trenchcoat Mafia" was a sarcastic name given to a group of loner type Goth kids by the more "normal" popular kids. I'll never forget talking on the phone to one of my buddies while watching the news and sarcastically saying I wonder if the "Trenchcoat Mafia" is behind this. When it was rumored that Harris and Kliebold were supposedly from that group of kids I was shocked. Those kids were not the types to do something like that. They were just kids that were expressing themselves in a different way than what was popular. Harris and Kliebold were ****ing nuts. I am glad to hear that they have disassociated these nutjobs from the "Trenchcoat Mafia".

slyinky
04-14-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm sorry but that article IMHO comes across as a promotion for a couple of "new account of the attack" books. After reading it I found a very well made documentary on the tragedy while browsing youtube. Seems to me that there was definitely bullying involved, at least according to first hand witnesses, and if they weren't a part of the "Trenchcoat Mafia" they certainly had an affinity for cowboy dusters.

Anyway, here are the youtube links to the documentary:

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BMx3BXuFI
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3v-lo0Yj4k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4f6OR9s2bc&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP1nlTPDMBA&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXWCjzYxxes&feature=related

Never Trust a Snake
04-14-2009, 11:25 PM
It's hard to fathom that it has been 10 years. Time sure flies.

Never Trust a Snake
04-14-2009, 11:32 PM
And people underestimate the threat of underground terrorism from a domestic source. I fear them more than I do radical Muslims.

DHallblows
04-15-2009, 12:51 AM
It's hard to fathom that it has been 10 years. Time sure flies.

Yeah seriously. I was only in 5th grade when it happened and I can still remember our Elementary school being locked down for a couple hours. Luckily they were able to rebuild and heal...more or less and by the time I graduated from there in '06 you couldn't tell anything odd in the least bit had happened there at all.
Great read, hard to read, but great none the less.

footstepsfrom#27
04-15-2009, 01:26 AM
well said.


Is that still the case? The treatment protocol by the shrinks I mean...drugging them up after blaming them for the problems?
Psychotropic drugs are the treatment of choice for virtually any mental health admission, adult or adolescent, regardless of the diagnosis. Shrinks set the treatment agenda in the mental health system and therapy is mixed into the treatment plan mainly because patients and their parents expect it. "Blame" is not the word they use but it's what happens. Responsibility for adolescent problems is assigned to the kid's environment (the family) which places the burden on the parents. This is probably most often the case...but it's also the default judgement before any real proof of that exists, which is the problem i have with it. Parents are held responsible and the kids are drugged. This slick little system maximizes profits to the health care providers. It keeps the parents feeling guilty and the kids on meds...managed care costs for inpatient psych treatment in Texas runs $1000-1500 a day and most of that is pure profit
That just seems completely assinine to me! But, it begs the question...what kind of treatment can you give a true sociopath? Did you ever see positive results, a remission of the sociopathic tendencies if you will?
That depends on what you mean by "results" or "remission". Pschiatric problems are not "cured" by the system's treatment regimen of incarceration, drugs and therapy. They're merely controlled or managed to the extent that behavior is modified. Behavior modification is the most frequent goal because it's how insurance providers define success and what they're willing to pay for is based on those "results". I've never really seen sociopathic personalities suddenly develop "conscience", which is what I'd classify as remission, if that's what you mean. Mostly they merely get smarter about manipulating the system or the people they're in contact with through the system.

True sociopaths were pretty rare in the private system...maybe 1% of the adolescents I saw might qualify as being considered for that. Even gang bangers would usually exhibit some evidence of remorse for things if they were separated from peers in the gang. None of that happens as a result of meds or therapy however. The system has no real answer for this problem.

Archer81
04-15-2009, 09:35 PM
And people underestimate the threat of underground terrorism from a domestic source. I fear them more than I do radical Muslims.


Oh yeah...so many examples of domestic terrorism...


:Broncos:

slyinky
04-15-2009, 10:34 PM
Oh yeah...so many examples of domestic terrorism...http://www.cfr.org/publication/9236/
Just thought that I would help you finish your post.:thumbs:

Boobs McGee
04-15-2009, 10:51 PM
Psychotropic drugs are the treatment of choice for virtually any mental health admission, adult or adolescent, regardless of the diagnosis. Shrinks set the treatment agenda in the mental health system and therapy is mixed into the treatment plan mainly because patients and their parents expect it. "Blame" is not the word they use but it's what happens. Responsibility for adolescent problems is assigned to the kid's environment (the family) which places the burden on the parents. This is probably most often the case...but it's also the default judgement before any real proof of that exists, which is the problem i have with it. Parents are held responsible and the kids are drugged. This slick little system maximizes profits to the health care providers. It keeps the parents feeling guilty and the kids on meds...managed care costs for inpatient psych treatment in Texas runs $1000-1500 a day and most of that is pure profit

WOW

That depends on what you mean by "results" or "remission". Pschiatric problems are not "cured" by the system's treatment regimen of incarceration, drugs and therapy. They're merely controlled or managed to the extent that behavior is modified. Behavior modification is the most frequent goal because it's how insurance providers define success and what they're willing to pay for is based on those "results". I've never really seen sociopathic personalities suddenly develop "conscience", which is what I'd classify as remission, if that's what you mean. Mostly they merely get smarter about manipulating the system or the people they're in contact with through the system.

True sociopaths were pretty rare in the private system...maybe 1% of the adolescents I saw might qualify as being considered for that. Even gang bangers would usually exhibit some evidence of remorse for things if they were separated from peers in the gang. None of that happens as a result of meds or therapy however. The system has no real answer for this problem.

WOW again. So basically, a "true" sociopath never actually develops any sort of conscience...they just find a means to fool their counselors (or whomever is in charge of their therapy) into thinking so.

scary

thanks again for the info, I've always had an interest in the study of human behaviors, but never followed through. So this is all very informative

Old Dude
04-16-2009, 07:40 AM
Some teenagers aren't sociopaths?

Rohirrim
04-16-2009, 07:47 AM
as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...

Wait until they're teenagers. You'll see. The child you have at seven does not even closely resemble the child he is at seventeen. It's like suddenly having different people move in. Basically, it's a storm you weather. And my kid is a great kid. He just absolutely, positively refuses to communicate on any level beyond the occasional grunt.

Anyway, I will never understand why that SWAT team did not go in. To me, that will always be the unanswered question. Would more have lived if SWAT had done the job they accepted paychecks to do?

worm
04-20-2010, 08:28 AM
11th anniversary today. Take a moment to remember.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 08:47 AM
Full article here :


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer


some excerpts:

They weren't goths or loners.
The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."



In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand if badly implemented terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.

"He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.

So whom did they hope to kill?

Everyone including friends.



Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges.

"These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."




Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

Harris, a senior, read voraciously and got good grades when he tried, pleasing his teachers with dazzling prose then writing in his journal about killing thousands.

"I referred to him and I'm dating myself as the Eddie Haskel of Columbine High School," says Principal Frank DeAngelis, referring to the deceptively polite teen on the 1950s and '60s sitcom Leave it to Beaver. "He was the type of kid who, when he was in front of adults, he'd tell you what you wanted to hear."

When he wasn't, he mixed napalm in the kitchen .




The Secret Service found that school shooters usually tell other kids about their plans.

"Other students often even egg them on," says Newman, who led a congressionally mandated study on school shootings. "Then they end up with this escalating commitment. It's not a sudden snapping."

Langman, whose book profiles 10 shooters, including Harris and Klebold, found that nine suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts, a "potentially dangerous" combination, he says. "It is hard to prevent murder when killers do not care if they live or die. It is like trying to stop a suicide bomber."

At the time, Columbine became a kind of giant national Rorschach test. Observers saw its genesis in just about everything: lax parenting, lax gun laws, progressive schooling, repressive school culture, violent video games, antidepressant drugs and rock 'n' roll, for starters.

Many of the Columbine myths emerged before the shooting stopped, as rumors, misunderstandings and wishful thinking swirled in an echo chamber among witnesses, survivors, officials and the news media.

Police contributed to the mess by talking to reporters before they knew facts a hastily called news conference by the Jefferson County sheriff that afternoon produced the first headline: "Twenty-five dead in Colorado."

A few inaccuracies took hours to clear up, but others took weeks or months sometimes years as authorities reluctantly set the record straight.


Since 1999, many people have looked to the boys' parents for answers, but a transcript of their 2003 court-ordered deposition to the victims' parents remains sealed until 2027.

The Klebolds spoke to New York Times columnist David Brooks in 2004 and impressed Brooks as "a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple" who spent plenty of time with their son. They said they had no clues about Dylan's mental state and regretted not seeing that he was suicidal.

Could the parents have prevented the massacre? The FBI special agent in charge of the investigation has gone on record as having "the utmost sympathy" for the Harris and Klebold families.

"They have been vilified without information," retired supervisory special agent Dwayne Fuselier tells Cullen.

Cullen, who has spent most of the past decade poring over the record, comes away with a bit of sympathy.

For one thing, he notes, Harris' parents "knew they had a problem they thought they were dealing with it. What kind of parent is going to think, 'Well, maybe Eric's a mass murderer.' You just don't go there."

He got a good look at the boys' writings only in the past couple of years. Among the revelations: Eric Harris was financing what could well have been the biggest domestic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on wages from a part-time job at a pizza parlor.

"One of the scary things is that money was one of the limiting factors here," Cullen says.



BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!







The one thing we can do to prevent this type of tragedy is to HOLD THE FRIGGEN PARENTS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR KIDS ACTIONS!

The second you force parents to accept responsibility for the conduct of their kids is the second stuff like this stops happening.

end rant.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 08:52 AM
Wait until they're teenagers. You'll see. The child you have at seven does not even closely resemble the child he is at seventeen. It's like suddenly having different people move in. Basically, it's a storm you weather. And my kid is a great kid. He just absolutely, positively refuses to communicate on any level beyond the occasional grunt.

Anyway, I will never understand why that SWAT team did not go in. To me, that will always be the unanswered question. Would more have lived if SWAT had done the job they accepted paychecks to do?

Nice, blame the cops! Blame the counselors! Blame the sheriff! Blame the school!

BLAME SOCIETY!

But don't blame the parents! After all, how could they know, right.

ERIC HARRIS HAD AN ARSENAL IN HIS BEDROOM! WTF!!

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 08:57 AM
You know why all Broncos fans should absolutely HATE the Columbine incident? Besides the obvious fact that it was a huge, huge tragedy, it also crapped all over the Broncos glorious wins!

Instead of talking about the Broncos, everyone was talking about COLUMBINE!!

I could not stand it!

RaiderH8r
04-20-2010, 09:00 AM
If it's a true sociopath the chances are that 1. He's smarter than you, and not by a little bit 2. He's an excellent liar 3. he has no conscience telling him any of this is wrong and 4. He does not adhere to any code of conduct, legal or ethical, that dictates the lives of almost everybody else in the world.

People just do not view the world through the eyes of a sociopath if they haven't been trained or had experience with them and even then the chances are likely the sociopath gets one over on you more often than not.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Sorry, still a little bitter about the whole thing. I was living and working in downtown Denver and it just sucked. It absolutely sucked all the life out of everyone.

OABB
04-20-2010, 09:26 AM
It's also known that the medications can actually cause normal kids to become suicidal and even homicidal. Who knows anymore.

I see it like this. Psychosis is not innate(perhaps there are exeptions) but a collection of experiences and not dealing with depression correctly.

I highly doubt these parents were "normal" and the kids were just screw ups. In my experiences, all people that are depressed, suicidal or just screwed up come from a long line of people that are very much the same.

My great grandfather killed himself. I was told my hole life that he was just an angry drunk as if without the booze he would have been a model citizen. Than I find out recently his father was abusive and also a drunk but no one knew about it until journals were found.

Just because parents say they are normal doesn't mean they are.

I am sure that Austrian fellow that kept impregnating his daughter who lived in his basement showed little signs of being strange too.

Garcia Bronco
04-20-2010, 09:40 AM
Wait until they're teenagers. You'll see. The child you have at seven does not even closely resemble the child he is at seventeen. It's like suddenly having different people move in. Basically, it's a storm you weather. And my kid is a great kid. He just absolutely, positively refuses to communicate on any level beyond the occasional grunt.

Anyway, I will never understand why that SWAT team did not go in. To me, that will always be the unanswered question. Would more have lived if SWAT had done the job they accepted paychecks to do?

They probably wouldn't know who and who not to shoot

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 09:42 AM
Wait until they're teenagers. You'll see. The child you have at seven does not even closely resemble the child he is at seventeen. It's like suddenly having different people move in. Basically, it's a storm you weather. And my kid is a great kid. He just absolutely, positively refuses to communicate on any level beyond the occasional grunt.

Anyway, I will never understand why that SWAT team did not go in. To me, that will always be the unanswered question. Would more have lived if SWAT had done the job they accepted paychecks to do?

I also love the "kumbayah stories by those who have yet to experience the challenges of the "teenage years". What's amazing is that they act as if they were never a teenager.

Swat didn't want to go in until they were finished pissing in their pants.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 09:43 AM
The one thing we can do to prevent this type of tragedy is to HOLD THE FRIGGEN PARENTS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR KIDS ACTIONS!

The second you force parents to accept responsibility for the conduct of their kids is the second stuff like this stops happening.

end rant.


Okee Dokee! Gotta love the "know-it-alls".

Garcia Bronco
04-20-2010, 09:46 AM
The idea that these parents didn't know is probably true, because they were mostly likely absent most of the time. Count on it.

Garcia Bronco
04-20-2010, 09:46 AM
I also love the "kumbayah stories by those who have yet to experience the challenges of the "teenage years". What's amazing is that they act as if they were never a teenager.

Swat didn't want to go in until they were finished pissing in their pants.

Everybody was a teenager. It's certainly enough to have a good idea about what other teenagers go through.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 09:48 AM
Nice, blame the cops! Blame the counselors! Blame the sheriff! Blame the school!

BLAME SOCIETY!

But don't blame the parents! After all, how could they know, right.

ERIC HARRIS HAD AN ARSENAL IN HIS BEDROOM! WTF!!

Where did I blame the cops, dickwad? I'm talking about the teacher that bled to death while the swat team was standing outside. They should have gone in. They got paid to take that risk and then, when the **** hit the fan, they didn't act. They should have been disbanded after Columbine. Waste of taxpayer money training units that won't do the job.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 09:48 AM
If it's a true sociopath the chances are that 1. He's smarter than you, and not by a little bit 2. He's an excellent liar 3. he has no conscience telling him any of this is wrong and 4. He does not adhere to any code of conduct, legal or ethical, that dictates the lives of almost everybody else in the world.
People just do not view the world through the eyes of a sociopath if they haven't been trained or had experience with them and even then the chances are likely the sociopath gets one over on you more often than not.


True sociopaths do have morals and ethics. Their own. That is what makes them terrifying. Using a literary character, Hannibal Lecter quite clearly had his own rules of ethics and morality. Coupled with a ridiculous intelligence and ambition to see his goals carried out, it created one of the scarier literary monsters. This is not far off from real sociopaths. The positive is that someone who is that smart or ambitious sets patterns and sticks to them. Variance causes anxiety, which leads to mistakes and gets them caught.

:Broncos:

Archer81
04-20-2010, 09:50 AM
The idea that these parents didn't know is probably true, because they were mostly likely absent most of the time. Count on it.


My mom worked and my dad is a Marine, and even then they would come to my room and see what I was up to. For Eric Harris, his parents probably did see weapons or whatever in his room and dismissed it. It couldnt be that their boy was harboring murderous tendencies. People see what they want to see.


:Broncos:

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 09:50 AM
If it's a true sociopath the chances are that 1. He's smarter than you, and not by a little bit 2. He's an excellent liar 3. he has no conscience telling him any of this is wrong and 4. He does not adhere to any code of conduct, legal or ethical, that dictates the lives of almost everybody else in the world.

People just do not view the world through the eyes of a sociopath if they haven't been trained or had experience with them and even then the chances are likely the sociopath gets one over on you more often than not.

Ted Bundy could bash some girls brains in and bury her and an hour later be enjoying dinner with his coworkers, laughing it up and telling entertaining stories. Everybody loved him. Well, except those girls.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 09:52 AM
Everybody was a teenager. It's certainly enough to have a good idea about what other teenagers go through.

I said "ACT AS IF", and if they in fact "were teenagers" at some point in their lives, then they would understand that teenager do things that even the most knowledgeable and diligent parents aren't aware of.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 09:55 AM
I also love the "kumbayah stories by those who have yet to experience the challenges of the "teenage years". What's amazing is that they act as if they were never a teenager.

Swat didn't want to go in until they were finished pissing in their pants.

I would sure as hell know it if one of my sons was building pipe bombs in the garage. Letting the parents off the hook is :bs: They sure as hell should have known what was going on. These parents must have had zero relationship with their kids. I have three teenage boys. Maybe the most I get out of them some days is a grunt, but I always know where they are and what they're up to. If there was something deeper going on, my wife or I would know it. I don't buy those parents' excuses at all.

OABB
04-20-2010, 10:03 AM
I would sure as hell know it if one of my sons was building pipe bombs in the garage. Letting the parents off the hook is :bs: They sure as hell should have known what was going on. These parents must have had zero relationship with their kids. I have three teenage boys. Maybe the most I get out of them some days is a grunt, but I always know where they are and what they're up to. If there was something deeper going on, my wife or I would know it. I don't buy those parents' excuses at all.

I don't see how ignoring your child and putting them on harmful drugs can screw the kid up. Come on. These kids were just born crazy (they must be missing some gene or something). I doubt that neglecting and drugging could have as much negative impact as god just choosing to give you a monkey brain at your inception.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 10:05 AM
I would sure as hell know it if one of my sons was building pipe bombs in the garage. Letting the parents off the hook is :bs: They sure as hell should have known what was going on. These parents must have had zero relationship with their kids. I have three teenage boys. Maybe the most I get out of them some days is a grunt, but I always know where they are and what they're up to. If there was something deeper going on, my wife or I would know it. I don't buy those parents' excuses at all.

I'm not insinuating that these kids weren't sending signals or that there wasn't enough evidence to start asking serious questions, what I am saying is that once kids reach the "tender teenage years" things change. They earn more privacy and start doing things without constant parental supervision.

Indeed in this particular instance parental awareness was most likely an issue, but for some of these clowns to say PARENTS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CHILDREN ACTIONS is assinine at best.

Sir_Robin
04-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Obviously, I plan on having children someday, CANT WAIT!!!(well, I can't wait!, but i can wait haha), but it's knowledge like this that just gets the gears turning in my head about parenthood, the unexpected in life, etc etc. I don't think any of it should be used as an excuse to NOT have kids, but I seriously ponder the things I'm going to teach my own someday, and the hope I reserve that everything I do will help them to become happy and healthy in life.

That's says plenty there. It concerns you and you are already thinking about such things. The effort and desire are already in place. I've spent the last 11 years working at a group home for boys sent to us from the juvenile courts. I have yet to be surprised by their home life. The only exception was one or two boys in foster care (in which case the foster parents have next to nothing to do with the boy's upbringing). The parents by and large, are quite cookie cutter.

It is rare to find a parent who doesn't love their children. That's usually the best trait they have and the one we try to build from. They simply have no training or role models for good parenting. Poor example setting, lots of enabling and permissiveness, no shortage of denial, and/or lack of involvement. I can count on one hand the number of kids who have come in who still lived with both of their biological parents. That's out of approximately 500 kids.

As for "sociopaths" I've met one or two who I would lump into that non-existent diagnosis based on the general criteria meant by the word. One had an attachment disorder. That's a scary ailment. The closest diagnosis to "sociopath" in the DSM is Antisocial Personality Disorder. APD requires the person diagnosed to be 18 so none of the boys I worked with qualified. Another requirement is "evidence of Conduct Disorder". Many of the boys at our group home have had that diagnosis. Regardless of diagnosis, the vast majority of the boys we deal with demonstrate amazing changes in behavior within a month of being at a place where they consistently receive attention, discipline, exercise, education, and nutrition.

So, in my opinion, you should be at ease my friend. You are already ahead of the curve simply based on desire to be a good parent.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 10:08 AM
I'm not insinuating that these kids weren't sending signals or that there wasn't enough evidence to start asking serious questions, what I am saying is that once kids reach the "tender teenage years" things change. They earn more privacy and start doing things without constant parental supervision.

Indeed in this particular instance parental awareness was most likely an issue, but for some of these clowns to say PARENTS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CHILDREN ACTIONS is assinine at best.


Which in a "normal" kid is expected. Thats how we learn to seperate our indentity from our parents and become an adult. The Harris and Klebold parents had to question something. My dad thought I was depressed because I wore black shirts two days in a row...if I had gone out of the house in a trenchcoat I would have been questioned to no end.

:Broncos:

baja
04-20-2010, 10:09 AM
I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.

Hey footsteps goodto see you posting again I hope all is well with you

OABB
04-20-2010, 10:11 AM
I'm not insinuating that these kids weren't sending signals or that there wasn't enough evidence to start asking serious questions, what I am saying is that once kids reach the "tender teenage years" things change. They earn more privacy and start doing things without constant parental supervision.

Indeed in this particular instance parental awareness was most likely an issue, but for some of these clowns to say PARENTS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CHILDREN ACTIONS is assinine at best.

In regards to knowing what your teen is up to every second I agree with you. it is impossible, and teenagers are always looking for trouble.

But, if you don't **** up your kid from the time he is born, chances are he will just get drunk and maybe in a couple of fistfights instead of shooting a bunch of people.

That is where the parents should be held accountable.

Of course they wont. It will be music, video games, psychobabble about brain chemistry and what not because people don't want to be responsible. It's too hard.

People that get depressed and drink are told that they have a disease called alcoholism and it's not their fault. People that are depressed are told the same b.s. about seretonin levels and whatnot. They don't want to hear that they are depressed because their life sucks, they just want an out.

That is the way it is.

You don't go shooting people unless somewhere along the lines your mommy and daddy ****ed up.

end of story.

Chris
04-20-2010, 10:15 AM
Mental illnesses like depression and psychosis are difficult to spot in anyone. Chances are if you're a mentally healthy adult you have no way of conceiving what these look like. Reading people is all about the outward expressions of emotion... mental illness removes these signs. It's very tough.

The best way to tackle this is to educate people so they can detect these things in themselves. Granted, that wouldn't have worked on an Eric Harris type.

Triplelefthook
04-20-2010, 10:21 AM
A good friend of mine went to school at Columbine when this went down. He skipped school that day to go smoke pot for 4/20 day......

Chris
04-20-2010, 10:35 AM
A good friend of mine went to school at Columbine when this went down. He skipped school that day to go smoke pot for 4/20 day......

My cousin hid in a classroom.

Rohirrim
04-20-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm not insinuating that these kids weren't sending signals or that there wasn't enough evidence to start asking serious questions, what I am saying is that once kids reach the "tender teenage years" things change. They earn more privacy and start doing things without constant parental supervision.

Indeed in this particular instance parental awareness was most likely an issue, but for some of these clowns to say PARENTS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CHILDREN ACTIONS is assinine at best.

Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say the parents are to blame. What they should, or should not have done, is a separate issue. For all we know, the parents were medicated. I saw interviews with Jeffrey Dahmer's dad. He was clueless. Seemed like a very sincere, good man. And Dahmer himself said he kept that side of himself as a completely separate, secret world. Maybe, in some ways, it's just the luck of the draw. Fortunately, I have three great sons. I'm very lucky. A few days ago my 16 year old told me I was more "hard assed" than any of his friends' dads. I just told him that's the way I see the world based on my own experiences, and that's why I am the way I am, and the father I am. Then he told me that what he meant to say was that it was a good thing. So, that made me feel pretty good. ;D

The Joker
04-20-2010, 10:41 AM
It's easy to blame the parents, but millions of kids have **** parents and go on and do great things and become great people.

Some people are just born evil ****s though and no amount of good parenting is going to fix them.

These two kids fall into that category for me, you need to be a special kind of ****er to do things like they did that day.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 10:42 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say the parents are to blame. What they should, or should not have done, is a separate issue. For all we know, the parents were medicated. I saw interviews with Jeffrey Dahmer's dad. He was clueless. Seemed like a very sincere, good man. And Dahmer himself said he kept that side of himself as a completely separate, secret world. Maybe, in some ways, it's just the luck of the draw. Fortunately, I have three great sons. I'm very lucky. A few days ago my 16 year old told me I was more "hard assed" than any of his friends' dads. I just told him that's the way I see the world based on my own experiences, and that's why I am the way I am, and the father I am. Then he told me that what he meant to say was that it was a good thing. So, that made me feel pretty good. ;D

Well, I'm pretty "hard-assed" myself. I was a bit easier on my son when I was a single dad with sole custody because of some self imposed guilt trip and it backfired a bit when he headed off to college, but my daughter has a pretty clear set of rules which if not adhered to result in consequences, and on "the flip side", if adhered to result in rewards.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 12:20 PM
I'm not insinuating that these kids weren't sending signals or that there wasn't enough evidence to start asking serious questions, what I am saying is that once kids reach the "tender teenage years" things change. They earn more privacy and start doing things without constant parental supervision.

Indeed in this particular instance parental awareness was most likely an issue, but for some of these clowns to say PARENTS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CHILDREN ACTIONS is assinine at best.

How do you suggest stopping kids from killing other kids. Please elaborate, oh wise one.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 12:30 PM
If the law enforcement could come after parents when their kids commit murder, then I guarantee everyone here, all parents would stand up and take notice.

If you have a kid that wants to kill other kids, you better know about it. I don't care if your lame azzz is in jail, if your kid kills other kids and he/she is under 18 (or hell, 21) then I want the law to come after you!

If you don't think for a minute this wouldn't put all the lame azz absentee dads on notice, you'd be wrong.

DomCasual
04-20-2010, 12:38 PM
A good friend of mine went to school at Columbine when this went down. He skipped school that day to go smoke pot for 4/20 day......

There's an after-school special in that story. :)

MaloCS
04-20-2010, 12:40 PM
I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.

Very interesting. Would you care to expand on some incidents that stood out. Of course I would expect some level of privacy but what about the general facts?

I'm truly interested. Thanks. :)

DomCasual
04-20-2010, 12:41 PM
If the law enforcement could come after parents when their kids commit murder, then I guarantee everyone here, all parents would stand up and take notice.

If you have a kid that wants to kill other kids, you better know about it. I don't care if your lame azzz is in jail, if your kid kills other kids and he/she is under 18 (or hell, 21) then I want the law to come after you!

If you don't think for a minute this wouldn't put all the lame azz absentee dads on notice, you'd be wrong.

And I would bet that it wouldn't change a single thing. People who are good parents are good parents because they feel a moral responsibility to their children. No impetus for bad parenting will trump the motivation they feel from that moral responsibility. People who are bad parents are bad parents for a lot of reasons - almost none of which would be deterred by potential repercussions of their bad parenting.

And honestly, I've known some great people that have begat (not a word, I know - but I like it) some pretty horrible progeny. I mostly agree with what you're saying - bad kids typically are the result of bad parents. But there are definitely exceptions.

Archer81
04-20-2010, 12:49 PM
You could make the parents culpable...but if a kid has it in his head he wants to kill someone, they are going to do it. No amount of parenting or loving is going to change that.


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 12:55 PM
And I would bet that it wouldn't change a single thing. People who are good parents are good parents because they feel a moral responsibility to their children. No impetus for bad parenting will trump the motivation they feel from that moral responsibility. People who are bad parents are bad parents for a lot of reasons - almost none of which would be deterred by potential repercussions of their bad parenting.

And honestly, I've known some great people that have begat (not a word, I know - but I like it) some pretty horrible progeny. I mostly agree with what you're saying - bad kids typically are the result of bad parents. But there are definitely exceptions.

Listen, I understand that good parents have bad kids, I've seen it too. However, there's a big, big, big difference between a bad kid that is a rebel, and a psycho that wants to kill.

Again, I think murder is absolutely where we can all draw the line. I'm not talking about going after parents whose kids are idiots, I'm talking about going after parents who's kids kill people. If a kid gets drunk and drives his car into a tree and kills others, then the parents should be held accountable. Maybe the parents are let off the hook because they were indeed, good parents doing the best they could and little Johnny just made one bad decision, then the courts will let the parents off the hook. However, if little Johnny was a nightmare to society and the parents did nothing to prevent his egregious behavior, then yah, they should be held responsible too.

I'm talking about kids killing kids and kids killing people. If you can go after the parents, I think this type of behavior would be seriously curbed.

Tombstone RJ
04-20-2010, 01:06 PM
You could make the parents culpable...but if a kid has it in his head he wants to kill someone, they are going to do it. No amount of parenting or loving is going to change that.


:Broncos:

If a kid is that hell bent on killing, and there's not anything they can do about it. That is, they've tried everything from tough love to hugs and kisses to eveything in between and they still know in their heart of hearts that the kid is dangerous, then they should go to the authorities and warn them.

There are pyschos in our society, I know that is the case and I know there's not a whole lot a parent can do if the kid is a socialpath. However, that does not give them the right to ignore the problem.

If the parents can't control the kid THEN it's time for the parents to warn the police that they have a problem child. If they can document all the things they've done to try and help the kid but nothing has worked, at least the police have an idea that he could be a problem.

All I'm asking for is the parents to be the first line of defense against possible socialpathic behavior. IMHO, we live in a society that gives parents a free pass when they are the ones who most profoundly affect the child's life.

Bronco Yoda
04-20-2010, 01:23 PM
While I agree completely, that last part is exactly what I'm trying to describe. You sit your 5 year old down everyday, ask him how his friends are, how his day was...things that I think are an integral part of human development. Daliy interaction, love...but the scary part to me is that even WITH all of that positive attention, there is a possiblity that (through no fault of your own), the child could have deep rooted psychological problems that he/she hides.

Obviously, I plan on having children someday, CANT WAIT!!!(well, I can't wait!, but i can wait haha), but it's knowledge like this that just gets the gears turning in my head about parenthood, the unexpected in life, etc etc. I don't think any of it should be used as an excuse to NOT have kids, but I seriously ponder the things I'm going to teach my own someday, and the hope I reserve that everything I do will help them to become happy and healthy in life.

The more you get and stay involved in your kids life, the more you're likely to start homeschooling your kids. Just saying...

SouthStndJunkie
04-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Hey footsteps goodto see you posting again I hope all is well with you

Those posts are from April of 2009.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 01:46 PM
How do you suggest stopping kids from killing other kids. Please elaborate, oh wise one.

Your question warrants no answer, because there is no MAGIC ANSWER. If there were then we could also guarantee world peace.

TailgateNut
04-20-2010, 01:48 PM
If the law enforcement could come after parents when their kids commit murder, then I guarantee everyone here, all parents would stand up and take notice.

If you have a kid that wants to kill other kids, you better know about it. I don't care if your lame azzz is in jail, if your kid kills other kids and he/she is under 18 (or hell, 21) then I want the law to come after you!

If you don't think for a minute this wouldn't put all the lame azz absentee dads on notice, you'd be wrong.


Oy ****ing Vey!

gunns
04-20-2010, 03:22 PM
That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a sociopath , and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.

Klebold's parents had some warning signs but I'm sure they had no clue it was that serious. It happens, there are few parents that would think their child is a murderous sociopath unless they acted out in some way and it appears that they, at least Harris, were very good at hiding their darker side.

gunns
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
Listen, I understand that good parents have bad kids, I've seen it too. However, there's a big, big, big difference between a bad kid that is a rebel, and a psycho that wants to kill.

Again, I think murder is absolutely where we can all draw the line. I'm not talking about going after parents whose kids are idiots, I'm talking about going after parents who's kids kill people. If a kid gets drunk and drives his car into a tree and kills others, then the parents should be held accountable. Maybe the parents are let off the hook because they were indeed, good parents doing the best they could and little Johnny just made one bad decision, then the courts will let the parents off the hook. However, if little Johnny was a nightmare to society and the parents did nothing to prevent his egregious behavior, then yah, they should be held responsible too.

I'm talking about kids killing kids and kids killing people. If you can go after the parents, I think this type of behavior would be seriously curbed.

The bolded, it's much easier to see that your child is a rebel than it is a psycho. If a kid gets drunk and kills someone, that's a rebel or an idiot. And most parents are not let off the hook anymore. If the kid is put in DT or a group home, the parents pay. I think you are stretching it to think parents ignore psychopaths. They don't know or they think it's teenage dulldrums often. BUT I do agree with holding the parent responsible for these nimwits that want to show off and take Daddy's gun to school.

TotallyScrewed
04-20-2010, 05:14 PM
They didn't notice stuff in garage or anything lying around the house. 98% of kids aren't neat. Then when parents were called into school they saw no red flag on paper he wrote.

I totally disagree. When kids don't care what you see, they're messy. When they care, they can be extremely cautious or secretive. And by that I don't mean that they're doing evil. It just depends on they're attitude.

TotallyScrewed
04-20-2010, 05:35 PM
That's says plenty there. So, in my opinion, you should be at ease my friend. You are already ahead of the curve simply based on desire to be a good parent.

And don't beat yourself up over every little mistake your kid(s) make. And don't beat them up. It's part of learning and growing up. Help them understand that and correct it.

Each kid is an individual until they get into groups.

TotallyScrewed
04-20-2010, 05:41 PM
It's easy to blame the parents, but millions of kids have **** parents and go on and do great things and become great people.

Some people are just born evil ****s though and no amount of good parenting is going to fix them.

These two kids fall into that category for me, you need to be a special kind of ****er to do things like they did that day.

Are you reading Stephen King right now? You do know that it's for entertainment purposes only.

Please understand that nobody is born evil. We're all born with free will and some get wrapped up in it deeper and faster than others but they weren't born evil.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP YOUR KIDS...

TELL THEM YOU LOVE THEM AND SHOW THEM YOU LOVE THEM EVERYDAY AND THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS YOU WILL ALWAYS LOVE THEM.

It sounds simple enough but it requires daily input AND LISTENING and tons of forgiveness and teaching.