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footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 10:52 PM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

nickademus
04-09-2009, 11:02 PM
over ten thousand posts and still spewing trash. Champ will have more value if he can finish this season without a major injury. and if we move him next year than cool. But to say that we didnt get value for Cutler is more than assinine its ignorant. Two firsts a third and a player for cutler and a 5th is damn near robery considering that EMO whiner asked for a trade and the Broncos made all of the issues public. So while I am not against trading Champ I would wait untill next year when he has (hopefully) better value.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 11:22 PM
over ten thousand posts and still spewing trash. Champ will have more value if he can finish this season without a major injury. and if we move him next year than cool. But to say that we didnt get value for Cutler is more than assinine its ignorant. Two firsts a third and a player for cutler and a 5th is damn near robery considering that EMO whiner asked for a trade and the Broncos made all of the issues public. So while I am not against trading Champ I would wait untill next year when he has (hopefully) better value.
Hogwash.

What if he DOESN'T finish without a major injury? Even if he does he'll be another year older. In 4 years those picks you're in love with probably won't even be on the team...couple problems; 1) this draft sucks, and 2) nobody knows if little hoodie and his new pal can draft worth a crap anyway.

Cardinal rule...do NOT trade franchise QB's...EVER.

In any case that's beside the point...Champ's value is never going to be higher than it is now at age 31...from here on it will drop, and unless you're stupid enough to think we're going to be a contender this year, there is zero reason to keep him.

Popps
04-09-2009, 11:24 PM
Champ won't bring quality value in return after the injury run he's had. Better to cross our fingers and keep his presence and talent around the defense as we rebuild.

Plus, if he's healthy even 3/4ths of the season, he's a massive asset.

I still fear that a first round CB may be on the mind of the staff. We need young guys, but have so many up-front needs that supersede a corner.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 11:28 PM
Champ's to good for a real contender who needs a final piece on their defense to pass up. I hope little hoodie isn't planning on a CB...this crop is crap.

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 11:29 PM
First of all, the zone blocking scheme is NOT being abandoned ... nor is our vaunted running game, hence Dennison & Turner being very much in charge of the line and RBs and McD publicly stating how excited he is to incorporate the zone blocking and RB system into what works well for him too, to make the whole thing even better.

And the rest of your argument falls flat on similar lack of logic. Your whole post is borne of defeatism and glass half full thinking.

This is a revamping process, with every effort made to win as soon possible. Otherwise, why bring in Dawkins, Goodman, Renaldo Hill, Andra Davis, etc. Sure this year is a major adjustment period but wit ha little luck We may still make a late season run, and year two and certainly year 3 are prime target for going for the whole dance.

Champ takes excellent care of himself and should be very competitive for at least 3 to 4 more years. More than enough time to have him be that shut down corner he can be with a much improved front 7 and solid secondary guys around him

Plus, he is even more a face of the franchise now and there is plenty of time next year or the following to draft his replacement in the first or second round and give them at least a year to learn from the maestro how its done at corner and how to prepare and carry yourself in the NFL. Now THAT is getting value out of Champ Bailey's last years.

Only a few of you Nervous Nelly's have thrown the Broncos under the bus for the next 5 to 15 years. The rest of us are getting fired up to see what might come from shuffling the decks here. Most all of this change is welcome.

Don't break your knuckles wringing your hands!

DBBBSBS
04-09-2009, 11:37 PM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

Posting such dumb threads even after 10k posts.. wow, you must be one of those who never learns. god please give this guy some brain cells... amen

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 11:40 PM
First of all, the zone blocking scheme is NOT being abandoned ... nor is our vaunted running game, hence Dennison & Turner being very much in charge of the line and RBs and McD publicly stating how excited he is to incorporate the zone blocking and RB system into what works well for him too, to make the whole thing even better.
From what I understand it's no longer the heart of the running game. If that's wrong...great. If not...expect some issues with inconsistency.
And the rest of your argument falls flat on similar lack of logic. Your whole post is borne of defeatism and glass half full numbskullery.
My argument is based on the fact that this team will not be a Super Bowl contender in the next 2 years. Are you saying otherwise? Even in the wildly improbable event that Orton proves to be Cutler's equal, this defense is still at LEAST 2 years away, not from greatness, but from mere respectability. How much does Champ's value drop at 33 from what it was at age 31? I'd say it's a considerable drop.
This is a revamping process, with every effort made to win as soon possible. Otherwise, why bring in Dawkins, Goodman, Renaldo Hill, Andra Davis, etc.
Yes free agents have a long history of being a huge success when they switch teams. Please...none of these guys are going to make a major impact capable off fixing our primary problems.
Sure this year is a major adjustment period but wit ha little luck We may still make a late season run, and year two and certainly year 3 are prime target for going for the whole dance.
You're saying what we'll be in 3 years? That's absurd. We don't even know if little hoodie can coach or not...he's proven nothing yet. We could just as easily be 5-11 and looking for a real QB.
Champ takes excellent care of himself and should be very competitive for at least 3 to 4 more years. More than enough time to have him be that shut down corner he can be with a much improved front 7 and solid secondary guys around him.
Which is why he has value now. In another year he has less.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 11:41 PM
Posting such dumb threads even after 10k posts.. wow, you must be one of those who never learns. god please give this guy some brain cells... amen
So you have no actual rebuttal argument...just a personal attack.

Typical.

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 11:48 PM
No I am not saying what we will be in three years, only that they are trying to build this team to win ASAP, not over some nebulous 5 year plan. Knowing full well there is a major overhaul needed on D and getting the QB right on O.

The Falcons and Dolphins turned it around in one year and the Falcons could make a run for it in the NFC this year. Granted us winning the SB is unlikely this year or next, the possiblity is wide open after that with good drafting/FA picks and solid coaching and team chemistry.

Your idea we got lousy value for Cutler is also absurd and there is no way we would get anything close to that for Champ at 31 and coming off the Hammy and elbow injuries though the hammy is supposedly at 100% and the elbow will be by Camp.

Champ still obviously wants to play, he fits whatever defense we put on the field and we are not going to get so much for him now that would make up for what we might lose in his on-field and off-field talents the next three years.

DBBBSBS
04-09-2009, 11:55 PM
So you have no actual rebuttal argument...just a personal attack.

Typical.

when a thread as dumb as this is out there... what can be said. if you think champ will land us some great picks if we trade him now.. all i can do is laugh

and looks like you are one of those sour grape left from cu-nt-ler leaving, what can we talk to you people who like a player over a team.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 11:57 PM
No I am not saying what we will be in three years, only that they are trying to build this team to win ASAP, not over some nebulous 5 year plan. Knowing full well there is a major overhaul needed on D and getting the QB right on O.

The Falcons and Dolphins turned it around in one year and the Falcons could make a run for it in the NFC this year. Granted us winning the SB is unlikely this year or next, the possiblity is wide open after that with good drafting/FA picks and solid coaching and team chemistry.

Your idea we got lousy value for Cutler is also absurd and there is no way we would get anything close to that for Champ at 31 and coming off the Hammy and elbow injuries though the hammy is supposedly at 100% and the elbow will be by Camp.

Champ still obviously wants to play, he fits whatever defense we put on the field and we are not going to get so much for him now that would make up for what we might lose in his on-field and off-field talents the next three years.
The bottom line is that we are not going to be a Super Bowl contender in the next two years. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:00 AM
when a thread as dumb as this is out there... what can be said. if you think champ will land us some great picks if we trade him now.. all i can do is laugh
He'll bring more now that later.
and looks like you are one of those sour grape left from cu-nt-ler leaving, what can we talk to you people who like a player over a team.
I was following this team before you were born clown.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:06 AM
The bottom line is that we are not going to be a Super Bowl contender in the next two years. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

So you want to give up everything we have now.. You are the real clown and you watching this game for too long doesn't mean a thing.. because you really dont know what the hell you are talking about

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:07 AM
He'll bring more now that later.

I was following this team before you were born clown.

But there is no positive influence on the defense, why not ask brain dawkins to sit as well... he is too old as well. are you crying on why we signed him ? may be we should sign 53 cu-nt-lers on this team and people like you will be happy.. when the cry babies are crying all over the field

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:15 AM
So you want to give up everything we have now.. You are the real clown and you watching this game for too long doesn't mean a thing.. because you really dont know what the hell you are talking about
I know how to back my position rather than resort to personal attacks; a dead give away that it's YOU whose uninformed.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:19 AM
But there is no positive influence on the defense, why not ask brain dawkins to sit as well... he is too old as well. are you crying on why we signed him ? may be we should sign 53 cu-nt-lers on this team and people like you will be happy.. when the cry babies are crying all over the field
Dawkins is 35...yeah, he's old, and he too won't be part of a Super Bowl winner for this franchise.

Your mother should wash out your mouth with soap.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:19 AM
I know how to back my position rather than resort to personal attacks; a dead give away that it's YOU whose uninformed.

Looks like people from your generation get upset and start demanding more respect becuase you have watched this game and followed this team for too long. But when you make a dumb statement / thread take it as it is.. or take the high road . dont cry and moan like cu-nt-ler

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:25 AM
Looks like people from your generation get upset and start demanding more respect becuase you have watched this game and followed this team for too long.
You called my loyalty to the team into question over the fact that I see Champ as having more value in a trade. Since I've been following the team 40 years, that makes your comment stupid.
But when you make a dumb statement / thread take it as it is.. or take the high road . dont cry and moan like cu-nt-ler
My version of the high road is to avoid using the juvenile approach you're taking with Cutler's name.

I'd expect that if you were 14...at 34 it's pathetic quite frankly.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:32 AM
You called my loyalty to the team into question over the fact that I see Champ as having more value in a trade. Since I've been following the team 40 years, that makes your comment stupid.

My version of the high road is to avoid using the juvenile approach you're taking with Cutler's name.

I'd expect that if you were 14...at 34 it's pathetic quite frankly.

Old people like you cry and moan all night for small things.. I have better things to do. Keep cribbing and crying and keep posting some of these stupid threads and keep reasoning as if you know it all... God give this old man some peace of mind, happiness and sleep... amen

fdf
04-10-2009, 12:36 AM
The bottom line is that we are not going to be a Super Bowl contender in the next two years. . .

I agree. But how is that any different from the situation before Shanahan was fired and before Cutler got himself fired? We weren't going anywhere until the defense was blown up and rebuilt. It will be delighted if we are a contender in year three. But that's the earliest I expect it.

Popps
04-10-2009, 12:37 AM
Again, what does Champ bring in a trade at this stage? Honestly? A #2 pick? Maybe. He's had a really hard time staying healthy.

Just don't see a marginal draft pick being worth more than what Champ could bring to the team in play and leadership over the next couple of years.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:38 AM
Old people like you cry and moan all night for small things.. I have better things to do.
Do them then.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:43 AM
I agree. But how is that any different from the situation before Shanahan was fired and before Cutler got himself fired?
Because the offense was an RB away from championship caliber last year. Granted, Shanny couldn't field a defesne, but we don't know this guy can either.
We weren't going anywhere until the defense was blown up and rebuilt. It will be delighted if we are a contender in year three. But that's the earliest I expect it.
Same here...which is why Champ probably isnt' a factor in that. It's unfortunate for him too, because he really deserves a championship.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:47 AM
Again, what does Champ bring in a trade at this stage? Honestly? A #2 pick? Maybe. He's had a really hard time staying healthy.

Just don't see a marginal draft pick being worth more than what Champ could bring to the team in play and leadership over the next couple of years.
I think a team close to a title run would give a #1 for Champ. How could then not? He's the top talent in the game at the hardest position on defense to play. It's a gamble...so? Teams gamble all the time when they think they could make a championship run. We might even get another conditional pick based on how he does with the new team. Obviously you don't do the deal if you don't think it's worth it.

baja
04-10-2009, 01:04 AM
Trading Champ is a dumb idea

One no one would want his contract

Two it would kill us cap wise (i think)

Three no way we replace his skill set and leadership with the pick he brings.

But let's call this thread what it is, sour grapes about the Cutler trade.

TDmvp
04-10-2009, 01:08 AM
Trading Champ is a dumb idea

One no one would want his contract

Two it would kill us cap wise (i think)

Three on way we replace his skill set and leadership with what he brings.

But let's call this thread what it is, sour grapes about the Cutler trade.

explain 3 again .

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 01:56 AM
Trading Champ is a dumb idea

One no one would want his contract

Two it would kill us cap wise (i think)

Three on way we replace his skill set and leadership with what he brings.

But let's call this thread what it is, sour grapes about the Cutler trade.
Wrong...not sour grapes, just a possible consequence of that trade. If you think you have a shot to win it all and Champ's a part of that, you keep him. If you think you've got no chance to do that, the best move is to leverage him for his trade value before he gets to old.

People saying we could get nothing for Champ...consider this:

Dallas traded a 1st, a 3rd and a 6th for WR Roy Williams from the Lions. Williams had only 1 1000 yard season in his first 5 in the league, was coming off a year in which he was injured and played only 5 games, and on top of that, Detroit was probably going to let him walk the next year anyway. If healthy Champ is a far superior player at a positon that's much harder to fill.

fido
04-10-2009, 02:34 AM
Wrong...not sour grapes, just a possible consequence of that trade. If you think you have a shot to win it all and Champ's a part of that, you keep him. If you think you've got no chance to do that, the best move is to leverage him for his trade value before he gets to old.

People saying we could get nothing for Champ...consider this:

Dallas traded a 1st, a 3rd and a 6th for WR Roy Williams from the Lions. Williams had only 1 1000 yard season in his first 5 in the league, was coming off a year in which he was injured and played only 5 games, and on top of that, Detroit was probably going to let him walk the next year anyway. If healthy Champ is a far superior player at a positon that's much harder to fill.

good point, and one at least worth taking a look at....jmo

Prodigal19
04-10-2009, 02:54 AM
Wrong...not sour grapes, just a possible consequence of that trade. If you think you have a shot to win it all and Champ's a part of that, you keep him. If you think you've got no chance to do that, the best move is to leverage him for his trade value before he gets to old.

People saying we could get nothing for Champ...consider this:

Dallas traded a 1st, a 3rd and a 6th for WR Roy Williams from the Lions. Williams had only 1 1000 yard season in his first 5 in the league, was coming off a year in which he was injured and played only 5 games, and on top of that, Detroit was probably going to let him walk the next year anyway. If healthy Champ is a far superior player at a positon that's much harder to fill.
I still cant believe Dallas was dumb enough to make that trade. We would be extremely lucky to get a steal like this.

dsmoot
04-10-2009, 03:23 AM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.


When has anyone said we are scrapping the ZBS. Why keep a guy like Dennision who has known nothing else if you are going a different direction. If anything more teams are going in that direction.

chrisp
04-10-2009, 03:41 AM
Before the Cutler trade I would have been more inclined to see a champ trade as likely, as when you are rebuilding (as we clearly are) it always helps to have a blockbuster trade...

However, there are a number of factors working against this:

1) Champ is coming off a down year by his standards, so his trade value is definitely lower
2) its quite clear the new coaching staff is putting a big emphasis on experience in the secondary - so Champ's age is not an issue (plus he's always had such great speed that he can lose a step or two without dropping off too much, like all the other great CBs have done...)
3) Not just experience, but also the secondary itself clearly seems to be an area of focus for the coaching staff, as witnessed by our activity in free-agency - we may all be saying its all about the front seven, and maybe it is, but clearly the new staff are not happy fielding a bunch of scrubs out there
4) the Cutler trade gives us our 'blockbuster' trade that sets the franchise up with the draft picks it needs, so the value to US of a Champ trade is lesser, irrespective of the fact that it would net us far less than the cutler trade anyway......

So I don't think that a champ trade would be either likely, necessary or desirable at this stage, but that's not to say the same thought didn't come into my head when shanny got sacked and McDaniels came in....

RocBronc
04-10-2009, 04:13 AM
An interesting thought... not without merit. However, I am leaning against it.

First of all, McDaniels thinks he can be a serious contender right now. You may think he's crazy but I think the Broncos will make the playoffs this year.

Even though our defense isn't great and going through a scheme change I think we'll be significantly improved next year esp. when I think McD uses most of our top picks on defense.

I think our offense with a great young OL and WR corps will be fine. With an improved defense Orton won't be asked to do what Cutler did and we'll be able to play to Oroton's strengths where smarts and scheme will get us offensive production instead of just relying on the sizable talent of Cutler. This is all predicated on the fact that our RB's will be much healthier this year.

The other thing is we've spent money and resources on improving our defense and running game so to me it would be a waste to not try and see if this new group of players w/ Orton, a stronger healthier group of RB's, some high draft picks couldn't make a run at things.

One caveat to this, if we had traded Cutler before free agency I would have definately wanted to trade Bailey and Williams and any other older player who would have brought us any draft pick/young player in return and rebuild basically from scratch.

KillerBronco#76
04-10-2009, 05:31 AM
Champ, Clady, and Marshall are our three Elite players the only three players i would consider for the most part Untouchable. Harris, Williams, Royal and Dawkins fall into to the Pro bowl caliber under them. Which is also where i would have put Cutler of course he will be in the elite soon with the right developement, Only he could have stamped his ticket out of Denver.

cmhargrove
04-10-2009, 06:25 AM
Show me one quality starting NFL CB you could get for less money than Champ right now. Contracts are outrageous these days, Champ is worth every penny. Where is your sense of team pride? Champ will help us win games. Even if it just means we go the the playoffs the next few years and can't get to the SB, it's worth keeping Champ.

This franchise is rebuilding, but it still wants to win, now. It's important for this team to win and compete this year. Champ should be a big part of that.

Finally, we aren't in any salary crunch right now, so why alienate even more players and fans?

Next idea.

Broncoman13
04-10-2009, 06:28 AM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

I'm all for trading Champ if that would help us improve in the long run. Not sure I agree his value is at it's best right now. IMO, he needs to have a great season this year to get over the injury image he has developed of late. Right now I think we could get a 1st for him. Another pro bowl year and a first and a player is likely.

barryr
04-10-2009, 06:55 AM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

The stupidity continues. It's obvious you want the Broncos to fail. Go root for the Bears and see if you can be Cutler's lover while you're at it.

LonghornBronco
04-10-2009, 07:10 AM
It's insane that we are rebuilding, that being said we owe it to Champ to allow him to seek a trade to a contender.

BroncoInferno
04-10-2009, 07:17 AM
While folks such as yourself may consider it a "fact" that we won't be contending anytime soon, I doubt McDaniels is quite the pansy defeatist you are. He would not have signed older guys like Dawkins and Goodman if he didn't plan on winning now. So, no, it's doubtful Bailey will be traded. We wouldn't enough for him anyway to make it worth our while given his age, injury plagued 2008 season, and contract.

broncofan7
04-10-2009, 07:25 AM
We headed into this offseason needing to tweek our offense a bit to improve red zone efficiency but mostly to focus on rebuilding our Defense and Special Teams. Somehow, we wound up needing to rebuild all three phases of the game INCLUDING THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION on any team, Quarterback. I agree that we should be seeking Champ's trade value and if we are realistic about it, I believe that the McD administration has probably done just that, but was more than likely not able to receive what he deemed as a proper level of value in return. I think that Champ has first round value to us on the field and unless we would get a 1st round pick in return for him, I would not pursue a trade. But is Footsteps idea off base or irrational? Absolutely not. And why is it not? Because we are rebuilding and he is 31 years old and will more than likely be around Dawkin's current age once we turn the corner. Could he be a Darrell Green clone? Perhaps, but not likely........

BroncoBen
04-10-2009, 07:48 AM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

I could agree with you.. you have some valid points. But this would just alienate Boss Bailey to no end and I am sure he would demand to be traded.

Now if you trade both Baileys the locker would fracture.. I am sure you would see Dawkins want to be traded back to the Eagles; he looked and talked like he had 'buyers remorse' when he was talking to the Philly press about leaving.

Gcver2ver3
04-10-2009, 07:53 AM
our secondary went from a glaring weakness last season, to being a real strength right now...

i look forward to seeing how Mike Nolan uses his pieces...once we add some front seven help thru the draft we may have a quite respectable defense...

earlier this offseason i would've been in favor of trading Champ to improve our draft status, but we did that by trading Cutler...so let's hold onto Champ and try and field a contender this year...

Drek
04-10-2009, 07:54 AM
We headed into this offseason needing to tweek our offense a bit to improve red zone efficiency but mostly to focus on rebuilding our Defense and Special Teams. Somehow, we wound up needing to rebuild all three phases of the game INCLUDING THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION on any team, Quarterback.
The rest of the offense is still in tact and Josh McDaniels is unquestionably a better offensive mind than Jeremy Bates. Kyle Orton is not as talented as Jay Cutler, but he's a winning QB who understands how to be a game manager. We were #2 in yardage, #16 in points. I'd expect both of those to gravitate towards one another, with us still being at or near the top 10, just in both categories.

Could he be a Darrell Green clone? Perhaps, but not likely........
He would have been if they'd given him a passable, healthy SOLB the last few years since moving DJ back from there. Instead he's spent far too much time with scrubs in front of him that he's cleaning up after in the running game. I think Champ still could get healthy and be a high level corner for another 5 or 6 years, but we need to start protecting him from being our best run stuffer on that side of the field.

Same thing that Shanahan did to Al Wilson. He never gave him even passable DTs in front of him and so Wilson's career was cut short from taking the beating every Sunday that is supposed to be split between two 300 pound men.

Broncomutt
04-10-2009, 08:05 AM
Normally I am down or disappointed in players who seem to have re-occuring injuries each year. Champ is one exception though. For a small defensive player (relatively speaking) he is consistently making tackles downfield against RBs who have broken through our line and are gaining a full head of steam.

In situations that would make me crap myselfYikes! , Champ sacrifices his body, for the play and for the team. He's then got to line up the next play, with a strained groin, bruised shoulder and still gasping for air and cover, often enough, a premiere wideout. The wideout may then burn him and do a celebration dance for ESPN saying "Look at me, I just owned Chump!"

I'd like to keep him around a little longer and see if Nolan can build a strong front seven. Then I think we might see Champ rise back to the elite status he once showed. FWIW, I never really thought he lost it, he just seems to have been in the path of the tornado.

broncofan7
04-10-2009, 08:13 AM
The rest of the offense is still in tact and Josh McDaniels is unquestionably a better offensive mind than Jeremy Bates. .

I agree with the bolded part..but would you rather have had the lesser, yet still talented OC with the better QB or a spare QB paired with McD? And you can not underestimate QB and reciever continuity and chemistry. So by saying that all of the other weapons will be in place is a bit naive and orange goggled when you take into account the fact that teams like Dallas who lost their QB for a stretch of games in the regular season but still had the same supporting cast left, wound up with a much lesser amount of production than with their franchise QB present. Obviously, our best situation would have been with Jay C and McD being able to cohabitate--and since they were not able too--we are left with a HUGE talent discrepancy at the quarterback position from what we would have fielded this season.

But back onto the thread topic--I agree that Champ has been having to make far too many tackles in the open field on runningbacks and it's really quite sad that he is probably our surest tackler. But I agree with footsteps premise that Champ's value should be explored--I differ in that I am of the opinion that I believe the Broncos fielded calls already on just that and didn't get what they thought was fair market value.

Rigs11
04-10-2009, 08:57 AM
Hogwash.

What if he DOESN'T finish without a major injury? Even if he does he'll be another year older. In 4 years those picks you're in love with probably won't even be on the team...couple problems; 1) this draft sucks, and 2) nobody knows if little hoodie and his new pal can draft worth a crap anyway.

Cardinal rule...do NOT trade franchise QB's...EVER.

In any case that's beside the point...Champ's value is never going to be higher than it is now at age 31...from here on it will drop, and unless you're stupid enough to think we're going to be a contender this year, there is zero reason to keep him.please explain why cutler was a franchise QB cuz I sure as hell didn't see it.

Drek
04-10-2009, 09:15 AM
I agree with the bolded part..but would you rather have had the lesser, yet still talented OC with the better QB or a spare QB paired with McD? And you can not underestimate QB and reciever continuity and chemistry. So by saying that all of the other weapons will be in place is a bit naive and orange goggled when you take into account the fact that teams like Dallas who lost their QB for a stretch of games in the regular season but still had the same supporting cast left, wound up with a much lesser amount of production than with their franchise QB present. Obviously, our best situation would have been with Jay C and McD being able to cohabitate--and since they were not able too--we are left with a HUGE talent discrepancy at the quarterback position from what we would have fielded this season.

We aren't turning our offense over to the corpse of Brad Johnson for starters.

And the big problem here is that Bates was a freaking QB coach last year that Shanahan gave more power than he was ready for, by a long stretch, and hence our offense being horribly inconsistent and unable to turn yards into points.

Bates shouldn't have been at that level last year and him being given all that control over the offense cost the team a division title. He isn't even close to the same league as Josh McDaniels, who's offenses have never scored as few points as Bates play called our offense to last year, and when given a mostly healthy team he set the league on fire for what is probably the best offense in NFL history.

And Bates had a very healthy unit last year. We had problems at RB, but our OL was the same five guys every Sunday. Our QB was the same guy every Sunday. Our #1 and #2 WRs, and #1 TE were the same guys every week. Our #2 TE had some nagging injuries and so did our #3 WR, but even with the revolving door at RB we were still much healthier on offense than the average NFL team is in any given year.

The scheme was out of date and ineffective in the red zone for the better part of this decade. It needed to be changed more so than it needed to retain any individual player.

Chemistry is an important part of an offense, but that is built during the off-season program. Orton and Simms will have the opportunities to find a good rapport with their targets. Its not like Cutler had a ton of time to build familiarity with them either, he'd only been starting for two seasons.

baja
04-10-2009, 09:20 AM
Wrong...not sour grapes, just a possible consequence of that trade. If you think you have a shot to win it all and Champ's a part of that, you keep him. If you think you've got no chance to do that, the best move is to leverage him for his trade value before he gets to old.

People saying we could get nothing for Champ...consider this:

Dallas traded a 1st, a 3rd and a 6th for WR Roy Williams from the Lions. Williams had only 1 1000 yard season in his first 5 in the league, was coming off a year in which he was injured and played only 5 games, and on top of that, Detroit was probably going to let him walk the next year anyway. If healthy Champ is a far superior player at a positon that's much harder to fill.

We already have like 11 picks in a weak draft and you want to trade Champ, doesn't make any sense even under your rebuilding scenario.

baja
04-10-2009, 09:25 AM
While folks such as yourself may consider it a "fact" that we won't be contending anytime soon, I doubt McDaniels is quite the pansy defeatist you are. He would not have signed older guys like Dawkins and Goodman if he didn't plan on winning now. So, no, it's doubtful Bailey will be traded. We wouldn't enough for him anyway to make it worth our while given his age, injury plagued 2008 season, and contract.

Also those guys (Dawkins etc ) would not sign here if McD was unable to sell them on his plan and I am sure he did not lay out a rebuild to them.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 09:40 AM
Also those guys (Dawkins etc ) would not sign here if McD was unable to sell them on his plan and I am sure he did not lay out a rebuild to them.

But but.. baja what do you know. footsteps knows a lot more because he has been watching broncos ball for more than 40 yrs.


ha ha ha ha... and still he has no clue on what he is talking about. LOL

Killericon
04-10-2009, 09:53 AM
Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

Yeah, we're not moving away from the zone-blocking scheme.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 09:55 AM
I still cant believe Dallas was dumb enough to make that trade. We would be extremely lucky to get a steal like this.
They also traded 2 #1's for Joey Galloway...suckers exist.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:04 AM
Show me one quality starting NFL CB you could get for less money than Champ right now. Contracts are outrageous these days, Champ is worth every penny. Where is your sense of team pride? Champ will help us win games. Even if it just means we go the the playoffs the next few years and can't get to the SB, it's worth keeping Champ.
That statement exemplifies the primary difference of opinion in this entire discussion.

I'm not interested in anything less than a Super Bowl trophy...actually more than one. I could care less about playoff appearances. I don't see that happening in less than 3 years minimum and that's only IF this new leadership group proves they can draft.

I'd rather stock up for a move up in next year's draft for a legit QB than keep an asset that is only going to keep us hovering around "pretty good" when we could rebuild entirely with young guys. Average QB's might win a Super Bowl now and then, but it takes a franchise QB to keep a team consistently at the upper echelons of competing for that year in and year out. Since we traded the guy who could do that, it make sense to seek another one at the opportune moment...that is not this year...but it's quite possibly next year. We have 2 #1's next year...3 would surely give us the ammo we need to make a move. And in the unlikely event that Orton proves he can be that guy...you simply have more power in the draft to build the defense anyway.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:07 AM
The stupidity continues. It's obvious you want the Broncos to fail. Go root for the Bears and see if you can be Cutler's lover while you're at it.
Yes barry you're so right I've been watching the 40 years because I love to see them fail. Good call.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:07 AM
They also traded 2 #1's for Joey Galloway...suckers exist.

i wish you were a GM for one of those 31 teams... i could have then traded away and sucked picks from you

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:09 AM
Yes barry you're so right I've been watching the 40 years because I love to see them fail. Good call.

do you have any other claim other than 40 yrs BS. i wish you did something else with that time, may be you would have developed some brain cells in the process Hilarious!

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:12 AM
While folks such as yourself may consider it a "fact" that we won't be contending anytime soon.
Hilarious! Yes us "white folks" are clearly united on this issue... :spit:
I doubt McDaniels is quite the pansy defeatist you are. He would not have signed older guys like Dawkins and Goodman if he didn't plan on winning now.
Shanahan did that too. The history of FA signing in the NFL suggests they rarely make the definitive difference in a championship team.

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 10:13 AM
I could care less about playoff appearances. I don't see that happening in less than 3 years minimum and that's only IF this new leadership group proves they can draft.

Teams go from 4 wins one season to the playoffs the following season EVERY YEAR. A consistent .500 or so team will now all of a sudden need 3 years at a minimum?!? Wow.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:14 AM
do you have any other claim other than 40 yrs BS. i wish you did something else with that time, may be you would have developed some brain cells in the process Hilarious!
I thought you had something better to do...no?

Making unfounded observations about people's intelligence based on a difference of opinion is a clear sign you're the one missing a few IQ points.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:15 AM
Teams go from 4 wins one season to the playoffs the following season EVERY YEAR. A consistent .500 or so team will now all of a sudden need 3 years at a minimum?!? Wow.
How many have done so with a rookie coach?

As I said...I'm not interested in the playoffs, I'm interested in winning championships.

BroncoInferno
04-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Hilarious! Yes us "white folks" are clearly united on this issue... :spit:

"While"...look at what you quoted. That's an "l", not a "t". Damn, give me a little credit.

Shanahan did that too. The history of FA signing in the NFL suggests they rarely make the definitive difference in a championship team.

Are you kidding? Every Super Bowl winner has a number of key players who they obtained through FA. You have to draft well, certainly, but FA is key component as well.

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 10:25 AM
How many have done so with a rookie coach?

Short memory I guess. IT JUST HAPPENED.

BroncoInferno
04-10-2009, 10:27 AM
How many have done so with a rookie coach?

Miami and Atlanta both did it with rookie coaches this very season.

frerottenextelway
04-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Champ has been in the league for what, 10 years? And 2 playoff wins? The epitome of medicoricy.

In all seriousness, trading our best player for a ''pick'' is a classic move the Pittsburgh Pirates. Lets not. It's hard enough to get star players in this league.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:29 AM
How many have done so with a rookie coach?

As I said...I'm not interested in the playoffs, I'm interested in winning championships.

I am interested in championships.. and you guys gave away one good player, so find all the other good ones in the team and let us give them all away. That is how we build championship teams... this comes because i have watched football for 40 yrs.. that is footsteps for you. not all others follow what footsteps says.. because he has been watching broncos for 40 yrs

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:30 AM
Short memory I guess. IT JUST HAPPENED.

beantown are u insulting footsteps.. he has been watching football for 40 yrs. :rofl:

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:31 AM
"While"...look at what you quoted. That's an "l", not a "t". Damn, give me a little credit.
:rofl: ...you're right. Sorry I just woke up...I thought that was a bit odd.
Are you kidding? Every Super Bowl winner has a number of key players who they obtained through FA. You have to draft well, certainly, but FA is key component as well.
True...but the core is rarely built with trades or FA.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:31 AM
Miami and Atlanta both did it with rookie coaches this very season.

bronco inferno.. what do you know. footsteps knows it all.. he has been watching football for 40 yrs. anyone say anything, that is his argument. :thanku:

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:33 AM
Short memory I guess. IT JUST HAPPENED.
I said "how many"? The answer requires a number , not an example.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:36 AM
bronco inferno.. what do you know. footsteps knows it all.. he has been watching football for 40 yrs. anyone say anything, that is his argument. :thanku:
No...you clearly have a reading comprehension issue.

You called my loyalty to the team into question over the issue of what I thought we should do with Champ. Telling you I've been a fan longer than you've been alive is a legitimate response...not surprised that you can't grasp that though.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:39 AM
I am interested in championships.. and you guys gave away one good player, so find all the other good ones in the team and let us give them all away. That is how we build championship teams... this comes because i have watched football for 40 yrs.. that is footsteps for you. not all others follow what footsteps says.. because he has been watching broncos for 40 yrs
Others have also weighed in suggesting the idea has merit. You were called out for your asinine suggestion that I'm not a true fan.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:40 AM
No...you clearly have a reading comprehension issue.

You called my loyalty to the team into question over the issue of what I thought we should do with Champ. Telling you I've been a fan longer than you've been alive is a legitimate response...not surprised that you can't grasp that though.

i know i know.. what is it exactly.. you have been watching 4o yrs and 1 day now. because you said 40 yrs yesterday

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:43 AM
Miami and Atlanta both did it with rookie coaches this very season.
Won titles? No they reversed their seasons. Again...is this the norm or an aberation that occurs now and then?

If we're able to turn this thing around in one year...great! But typically it takes some time to build a championship team that competes every year for the Super Bowl. Those teams generally have great QB's...and we no longer have that piece. Free agency offers quick fixes and sometimes they work for a while, but the two model franchises for consisent winning in the last few years have been Pittsburgh and New England and both were built with smart front office management and skillful maneuvering in the draft.

We know nothing yet about either of those factors.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Won titles? No they reversed their seasons. Again...is this the norm or an aberation that occurs now and then?

If we're able to turn this thing around in one year...great! But typically it takes some time to build a championship team that competes every year for the Super Bowl. Those teams generally have great QB's...and we no longer have that piece. Free agency offers quick fixes and sometimes they work for a while, but the two model franchises for consisent winning in the last few years have been Pittsburgh and New England and both were built with smart front office management and skillful maneuvering in the draft.

We know nothing yet about either of those factors.

elway has been gone for 10 yrs now. it took you this long for you realize the fact

Eldorado
04-10-2009, 10:48 AM
blah blah blah
:puke:I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.:/puke:

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/fail_thread.jpg

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:48 AM
elway has been gone for 10 yrs now. it took you this long for you realize the fact
Sorry...I don't have time for someone with your limitations.

Eldorado
04-10-2009, 10:49 AM
http://prudz.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/failure.jpg

Eldorado
04-10-2009, 10:49 AM
http://home.cogeco.ca/~mbilodeau/fail.jpg

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Sorry...I don't have time for someone with your limitations.

dumd old racist guys limitations exposed

ZONA
04-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Bottom line is Champ has a good 4 or 5 years left of very solid play. In the NFL, that is an eternity. You can go from bottom feeder to the Superbowl. Just look at the Cardinals. From crap to the Superbowl in 2 years under Wisenhunt.

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Won titles? No they reversed their seasons.

So now you are going to change your own criteria. First, it was "show me playoffs by rookie coaches taking over poor teams." You got owned on that one, so now you are going to change your criteria to championships.

Unreal.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 10:54 AM
Bottom line is Champ has a good 4 or 5 years left of very solid play. In the NFL, that is an eternity. You can go from bottom feeder to the Superbowl. Just look at the Cardinals. From crap to the Superbowl in 2 years under Wisenhunt.

exactly and this is the team which was coached by green... and green was in lot of peoples terms, good exp coach. but ken the rookie did the turn around and was 3 min from superbowl.... oh and by the way, the coach who won was a rookie not so long ago... for people watching this 40 yrs... it is difficult to understand

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 10:59 AM
dumd old racist guys limitations exposed
You should review the board's history more before posting. It will keep you from making a total ass of yourself...maybe.

rastaman
04-10-2009, 11:00 AM
The rest of the offense is still in tact and Josh McDaniels is unquestionably a better offensive mind than Jeremy Bates. Kyle Orton is not as talented as Jay Cutler, but he's a winning QB who understands how to be a game manager. We were #2 in yardage, #16 in points. I'd expect both of those to gravitate towards one another, with us still being at or near the top 10, just in both categories.


He would have been if they'd given him a passable, healthy SOLB the last few years since moving DJ back from there. Instead he's spent far too much time with scrubs in front of him that he's cleaning up after in the running game. I think Champ still could get healthy and be a high level corner for another 5 or 6 years, but we need to start protecting him from being our best run stuffer on that side of the field.

Same thing that Shanahan did to Al Wilson. He never gave him even passable DTs in front of him and so Wilson's career was cut short from taking the beating every Sunday that is supposed to be split between two 300 pound men.

Great observation! Champ would have stayed alot healthier had he played for perhaps the Ravens or Steelers.

rastaman
04-10-2009, 11:05 AM
Bottom line is Champ has a good 4 or 5 years left of very solid play. In the NFL, that is an eternity. You can go from bottom feeder to the Superbowl. Just look at the Cardinals. From crap to the Superbowl in 2 years under Wisenhunt.

It maybe time for Champ to make a position change to safety, the same way Rod Woodson did as his speed started to decline. Woodson playing safety added several years of great quality play to his 17 or 19 year career. Champ is a great tackler and would be an asset and smart move for longevity of his career. This way by the time McD is done rebuilding, Champ will still have alot left in the tank and maybe able to squeez out one or two SB Rings.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 11:08 AM
So now you are going to change your own criteria. First, it was "show me playoffs by rookie coaches taking over poor teams." You got owned on that one, so now you are going to change your criteria to championships.

Unreal.
No...I said right off the bat I'm not interested in just the playoffs. I'm interested in the Super Bowl and I want to compete for that every year. I used the example of rookie coaches to make a point...that they're unproven...unknown...MOST of the time they don't win immediately and we have no way of predicting what they will do since they've never done it at this level.

Shanny was a known factor...for better or worse...lately the worse...we knew what we were getting and could make predictions based on his past track record. Not true with this guy...we have absolutely no idea if he can handle the head job or not, and since no other Belichick assistant has shown he's a proven winner in the NFL...that question is magnified. His record so far is questionable at best given the Cutler fiasco, despite the best efforts of the homers to beat the drum for him being the answer.

Bottom line...we are farther away from being a consistent Super Bowl contender than we were a year ago. You might think Champ's going to be here for the turnaround...I question that.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 11:09 AM
You should review the board's history more before posting. It will keep you from making a total ass of yourself...maybe.

oh ok.... as you say .. 4o yr of football watching dumbo

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 11:09 AM
It maybe time for Champ to make a position change to safety, the same way Rod Woodson did as his speed started to decline. Woodson playing safety added several years of great quality play to his 17 or 19 year career. Champ is a great tackler and would be an asset and smart move for longevity of his career. This way by the time McD is done rebuilding, Champ will still have alot left in the tank and maybe able to squeez out one or two SB Rings.
Champ is still a top 3 CB in the league if he's healthy. If we're going to move him to safety...a position that's much easier to fill than a #1 CB...then trading him makes much more sense.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 11:11 AM
oh ok.... as you say .. 4o yr of football watching dumbo
I said review the board's history...my history on this board. A good phonics course might help you.

Mogulseeker
04-10-2009, 11:13 AM
Going into this season our two greatest assets were a young franchize QB and the NFL's best young O-line. Now that we've crapped away the first and changed the role of the second (this O-line was built for the zone blocking scheme), it's obvious we're now in rebuilding mode.

How then does it make any sense at all to keep Champ, who will be 31 when the season starts? He's got maybe two years at his current level of play and even assuming (a big assumption) that the new guys know anything about drafting, we're still not going to be a contender while he's at the top of his game. Clearly his value is now greatest in a trade. Unfortunately I'm afraid if we trade him, that just like Cutler we won't get value in return but I don't see that we have much choice.

What good does it do to keep him here while we rebuild? None. I say we move him now while he still has value. I'm sure the homers who think McOpie is going to have us in the Superbowl next year will disagree, but the smart move is to leverage an asset before while it still has value.

The o-line situation is starting to worry me. Our smallish zone-blocking o-line was perfect for Jay Cutler, but with Kyle Orton back there, I think we're going to see a lot more sacks next year.

We have the best young o-line in the league, but none of them (except maybe Clady) are ideal fits in McD's system.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 11:13 AM
I said review the board's history...my history on this board. A good phonics course might help you.

why should i.. about a dumb guy.. who doesn't know what he is talking about now.

history is for people who want to live in the past... i like to look forward, so talk some sense now

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 11:15 AM
No...I said right off the bat I'm not interested in just the playoffs. I'm interested in the Super Bowl and I want to compete for that every year.

Just admit you were wrong about the guarantee of a 3 year minimum turnaround. You specifically said playoffs in that quote. Not SB.

You did make it clear that all you were interested in was the SB, but you bit off more than you could chew when you made the "3 year" comment and you know it.

I used the example of rookie coaches to make a point...that they're unproven...unknown...MOST of the time they don't win immediately

Evidence?

Steelers, Ravens, AZ, Miami, Atlanta

All winners either in their first year or second with rookie HCs. And that's just in the last two seasons.

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 11:17 AM
The o-line situation is starting to worry me. Our smallish zone-blocking o-line was perfect for Jay Cutler, but with Kyle Orton back there, I think we're going to see a lot more sacks next year.

We have the best young o-line in the league, but none of them (except maybe Clady) are ideal fits in McD's system.

Zone blocking only comes into play on running downs.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 11:18 AM
The o-line situation is starting to worry me. Our smallish zone-blocking o-line was perfect for Jay Cutler, but with Kyle Orton back there, I think we're going to see a lot more sacks next year.

We have the best young o-line in the league, but none of them (except maybe Clady) are ideal fits in McD's system.
That's an insightful observation. Yes the line is good...they looked better than they were with Jay's scrambling abilitiy. Even Plummer had a lower sack total than he should have. New England's line was much different than this one in physical stature. Factor in the possibility our running game continues to suffer without a true franchise type back and an imobile QB could be under a lot of pressure. There's a lot of unknown factors here about the offense, not just the D.

Northman
04-10-2009, 11:22 AM
First of all, the zone blocking scheme is NOT being abandoned ... nor is our vaunted running game, hence Dennison & Turner being very much in charge of the line and RBs and McD publicly stating how excited he is to incorporate the zone blocking and RB system into what works well for him too, to make the whole thing even better.

And the rest of your argument falls flat on similar lack of logic. Your whole post is borne of defeatism and glass half full thinking.

This is a revamping process, with every effort made to win as soon possible. Otherwise, why bring in Dawkins, Goodman, Renaldo Hill, Andra Davis, etc. Sure this year is a major adjustment period but wit ha little luck We may still make a late season run, and year two and certainly year 3 are prime target for going for the whole dance.

Champ takes excellent care of himself and should be very competitive for at least 3 to 4 more years. More than enough time to have him be that shut down corner he can be with a much improved front 7 and solid secondary guys around him

Plus, he is even more a face of the franchise now and there is plenty of time next year or the following to draft his replacement in the first or second round and give them at least a year to learn from the maestro how its done at corner and how to prepare and carry yourself in the NFL. Now THAT is getting value out of Champ Bailey's last years.

Only a few of you Nervous Nelly's have thrown the Broncos under the bus for the next 5 to 15 years. The rest of us are getting fired up to see what might come from shuffling the decks here. Most all of this change is welcome.

Don't break your knuckles wringing your hands!

/thread

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 11:39 AM
Just admit you were wrong about the guarantee of a 3 year minimum turnaround. You specifically said playoffs in that quote. Not SB.

You did make it clear that all you were interested in was the SB, but you bit off more than you could chew when you made the "3 year" comment and you know it.
Listen very carefully to what I'm saying instead of thinking how you'll respond.

Typically rookie coaches don't turn a team around in 1 year...most often it takes longer. I'll use Kubiak here...a guy I consider better qualified than little hoodie. This team has huge holes on defense and our offense now is further away than it was before Cutler was traded. I don't see this team in the playoffs before 3 years, and I definitely don't see us winning Super Bowls by that time. That's based on what we are lacking now...major holes in the defensive ine, linebacker, safety and one probably Bly's vacated CB spot as well. Then you have the lack of a true franchise QB, no top flight runner, and an O-lne that was used to blocking for a different and more mobile QB and using a different system.

Now factor in the fact that our front office has zero experience running the draft and you have to many question marks for a prediction of success prior to 3 years. Based on prior Belichick assistants records, I'm not sure we won't all be caling for little hoodie's head in 3 years, let alone rooting this team on in the playoffs. If I'm wrong...WONDERFUL! I'll be the first to admit it. But right now...based on all these unknown factors, the current moves I've seen him making (dumping Leach for NE's long snapper for example)...AND the fact that we now lack the toughest piece to find..a franchise QB...3 years seems not only reasonable for a playoff appearance but wildly optimistic for a championship run.
Evidence?

Steelers, Ravens, AZ, Miami, Atlanta

All winners either in their first year or second with rookie HCs. And that's just in the last two seasons.
You're kidding right? None of those teams except probably Miami had the shortage of talent this team does, and none faced their first year dumping a franchise QB and working with brand new people in the draft process. Steelers? Ravens? They've had the NFL's best defenses for years before these coaches took over. The Falcons have a legit QB...we have 2 backups. I'm not even convinced that Orton beats out Chris Simms.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
04-10-2009, 11:46 AM
Do them then.

http://www.homee.com/pic/thread%20sucks.jpg

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Typically rookie coaches don't turn a team around in 1 year...most often it takes longer.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. You said 3 years originally. I gave examples of 5 teams that did it in 1 or 2.

Prove your point. One example doesn't do it. The numbers are still on my side.

You're kidding right? None of those teams except probably Miami had the shortage of talent this team does

debatable

If Atlanta had more talent, they would've won more games. The draft and FA helped them, just as it can in Denver.

And Baltimore's offense has for years been as inept as Denver's defense has been these last two years.

and none faced their first year dumping a franchise QB and working with brand new people in the draft process.

Wrong again (shocker I know)

Baltimore and Atlanta got new QBs in the draft. THEY WERE BOTH IN EXACTLY THE POSITION DENVER IS IN NOW.....WORSE ACTUALLY. Both organizations also completely changed their coaching and GM positions. You know....those guys who are front and center in the draft process.

Steelers? Ravens? They've had the NFL's best defenses for years before these coaches took over.

Now tell me about their offenses.

The Falcons have a legit QB...

And who was the Falcons QB three weeks before last year's draft?

Thank you.

Drek
04-10-2009, 11:49 AM
The o-line situation is starting to worry me. Our smallish zone-blocking o-line was perfect for Jay Cutler, but with Kyle Orton back there, I think we're going to see a lot more sacks next year.

We have the best young o-line in the league, but none of them (except maybe Clady) are ideal fits in McD's system.

1. The ZBS is only used on running downs. Also, McDaniels retained both Dennison and Turner, so why do you assume that we're throwing the entire ZBS out the door? Wouldn't it be more accurate to expect McDaniels to bring his man blocking scheme via the single back set, where he's been featuring it with great success the last few years, while we retain the ZBS in many other facets of our running game? Thats basically what McD said he's shooting for, so it'd seem to make sense.

2. Clady, Kuper, and Harris are all big, standard blocking scheme OLs. Wiegmann spent nearly his entire career in a man scheme until coming here last year, and excelled despite only being about 285. Only Ben Hamilton might be an issue in that area. Corey Lichtenstieger is also a >300 pound interior OL, and when coming out of the draft many projections said he'd be better suited to a man scheme over the zone. A Shanahan/Goodman draft pick that was already moving us away from ZBS prototype small and weak OLs? Couldn't be true!

The offense as a whole is an ideal fit for McDaniels' scheme. Hell, Cutler and Bates both said at the start of last year that they stole a ton of elements from McDaniels' scheme for the '08 Broncos offense. So now instead of a copy cat we've got the real deal running the show. The personnel has already been largely shifted towards talent conducive to his system, FYI, and not even just on the OL.

The two TE sets he ran with Watson and Graham, before getting Moss and Welker (and losing Graham)? We've got the original #1 TE from that, still in his prime, with Graham and a receiving TE comparable to Watson in Sheffler.

The three wide sets they ran in '07 and '08 with Moss, Welker, etc.? We've got the very same #3 he used then in Gaffney, a small speedster in Royal who compares very well with Welker, and a big YAC monster in Marshall who would fit into the role they used for Randy Moss there quite well.

Versatile tailback who can handle carrying the ball, catching out of the backfield, and working in pass pro? Kevin Faulk gets one upped by a 250 pound Peyton Hillis pretty easily if you ask me.

His offense is the spread meets the WCO, that is very much what Shanahan had been moving this team to over the last few years. But McDaniels has already brought that kind of innovation to the NFL and implemented it with massive success. We've got all the young pieces to take it to the next level, and now we've got a young QB who has familiarity with it's concepts and the desire to actually be our field general.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:27 PM
Baltimore and Atlanta got new QBs in the draft. THEY WERE BOTH IN EXACTLY THE POSITION DENVER IS IN NOW.....WORSE ACTUALLY. Both organizations also completely changed their coaching and GM positions. You know....those guys who are front and center in the draft process.

Now tell me about their offenses.

And who was the Falcons QB three weeks before last year's draft?

Thank you.
Baltimore and Atlanta got new QBs in the draft. THEY WERE BOTH IN EXACTLY THE POSITION DENVER IS IN NOW.....WORSE ACTUALLY. Both organizations also completely changed their coaching and GM positions. You know....those guys who are front and center in the draft process.



Now tell me about their offenses.



And who was the Falcons QB three weeks before last year's draft?

Thank you.
Atlanta had the amazingly good fortune of replacing Vick with a guy who exhibited the rarest of all performances...a rookie QB who performed at a very high level. How is that the same as replacing a pro bowl QB with a guy who was a throw in with 2 #1 picks? It's not, therefore you're expectations as similar to this example breaks down dramatically. The Ravens also drafted a good young franchise QB who shined immediately, once again...very rare...and something we no longer have. What's the common denominator here? Two excellent young QB's who stepped in with immediate success...that rarely happens. If anything those examples are more consistent with Cutler's quick rise to stardom putting us on track for future success, not trading him for a throw in.

I'm not going to argue with you endlessly about what I mean. If you dont' get what I'm sayng, that's fine by me. My point remains as it was from the beginning of this thread, that I don't think we're going to win it all within the shelf life that Champ has as a top 3 CB in the league and I think trading him IF we could get appropriate value in return is our best move.

Don't agree?...no problem.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:29 PM
**This thread BTW...is generating a virus warning each time it's clicked on...Taco? My system's stopping it...just a warning to anyone not seeing that on your screen...

nickademus
04-10-2009, 12:35 PM
The bottom line is that we are not going to be a Super Bowl contender in the next two years. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

We wouldnt have been a superbowl contender this year with cutler. our schedual is brutal and who knows maybe next year but its not like Cutler didnt ask to get traded multipul times after his butt buddy went to usc. I just feel like Champ has more value to us this year than he would on the market, and wether or not that changes has a lot to do with his health. but even if he were healthy I doubt we are getting a whole lot for a CB who is on the wrong side of 30.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:45 PM
I just feel like Champ has more value to us this yearthan he would on the market, and wether or not that changes has a lot to do with his health. but even if he were healthy I doubt we are getting a whole lot for a CB who is on the wrong side of 30.
"This year"...you're right. I'm interested in 3 years down the road. As to his value...you never know...see the Roy Williams note earleir

NFLBRONCO
04-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I've been open to this for 3 offseasons I love Champ but, the reality is we are miles away from a true contender. Now we traded away Jay its more of a no brainer to move him even though I doubt Denver will do it.

Archer81
04-10-2009, 08:59 PM
Atlanta went from nothing to a playoff run. Fast turnarounds have happened before.

:Broncos:

NFLBRONCO
04-10-2009, 09:13 PM
Atlanta went from nothing to a playoff run. Fast turnarounds have happened before.

:Broncos:

Yeah but, to expect it to happen to every team is unrealistic. Again better D's helped them with faster turnaround. Hey I won't complain if it happens to us just not expecting it.

Bronco Yoda
04-10-2009, 11:25 PM
No way. We have enough picks. Considering our green FO, I want to see how they draft first this year before I go raiding the cupboard.