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baja
04-09-2009, 10:20 AM
A shake up was needed, to this most now agree.

Where we differ ( 44% to 56% ) is how we feel about the cutler issue but we do have a season coming up.

What does that team show on the field?

I say we will become know for our Intensity, defensive aggressiveness and good Special Teams play.

Traveler
04-09-2009, 10:22 AM
My hope is that they learn how to tackle too.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 10:26 AM
My hope is that they learn how to tackle too.

Yeah ... but I did notice Vernon Fox is still on the roster hmmm...

broncofan7
04-09-2009, 10:29 AM
A shake up was needed, to this most now agree.

Where we differ ( 44% to 56% ) is how we feel about the cutler issue but we do have a season coming up.

What does that team show on the field?

I say we will become know for our Intensity, defensive aggressiveness and good Special Teams play.

Not this next season we won't. We will be known for being one of the 3 AFC west punching bags for the NFC East and AFC north-5-11. Book it.

TheDave
04-09-2009, 10:33 AM
too many changes to expect much of anything... I'm hoping for the best but I sticking with an over/under of 5 wins.

DHallblows
04-09-2009, 10:34 AM
I say we will become know for our Intensity, defensive aggressiveness and good Special Teams play.

That translates to a ****ty team: "At least they're trying hard! Hardy har har!"

Hercules Rockefeller
04-09-2009, 10:37 AM
This team is going to be very bad unless they can pull a "Clady" on the defensive side of the ball with one of their picks.

baja
04-09-2009, 10:46 AM
That translates to a ****ty team: "At least they're trying hard! Hardy har har!"

No it's a team that is learning to play together within a new system on both sides of the ball and is an eager team that plays with intensity.

A team that will lose games while bring it together.

I'm thinking we will see a much stronger team at the end of the season unlike previous years.

SpiritGuy
04-09-2009, 10:53 AM
they can pull a "Clady" on the defensive side of the ball with one of their picks.

Hopefully it's a Clady and Royal, with the rest having the intensity and desire of WW, Larsen, and Hillis! ;D

Doggcow
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
Yeah ... but I did notice Vernon Fox is still on the roster hmmm...

Or Lowry! It's insane how improved that position will be this year. Is Harana-Daze starting with Dawkins? (I think thats our best pair)

Doggcow
04-09-2009, 10:57 AM
Hopefully it's a Clady and Royal, with the rest having the intensity and desire of WW, Larsen, and Hillis! ;D

God damn I love our 2008 draft class, I really do.

Hotrod
04-09-2009, 11:00 AM
One of my concerns is the team needs to find its own identity. I dont think we really have one right now.

God I miss Al Wilson, Atwater, Easy Ed etc.....

baja
04-09-2009, 11:04 AM
One of my concerns is the team needs to find its own identity. I dont think we really have one right now.

God I miss Al Wilson, Atwater, Easy Ed etc.....

great point HR, who in the draft can be our next Al Wilson type leader?

gyldenlove
04-09-2009, 11:05 AM
No it's a team that is learning to play together within a new system on both sides of the ball and is an eager team that plays with intensity.

A team that will lose games while bring it together.

I'm thinking we will see a much stronger team at the end of the season unlike previous years.

A team that loses games is not a competitive team. Losing is for losers.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:12 AM
A team that loses games is not a competitive team. Losing is for losers.

No losers are the guys on the field the last three games of last season.

You can compete and still lose.


Think the Celtcs and the Lakers when they were playing all those 7 game series.

LonghornBronco
04-09-2009, 11:14 AM
We've gotten older, slower, and significantly worse at QB, not to mention very green in the FO and coach = 4-12 bank it!

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
And I think Carlton Powell is going to be a big factor on the D Line next to the nose. The guy can penetrate and stop the run.

He had all last year to learn the pro life and get recovered from that Achilles which at least happened early in Camp so he is pretty much good to go now and should by 100% before training camp. I like his attitude and he's got a non-stop motor. Add two more good DE/OLB's and a solid Nose to rotate with Fields and we are going to be much improved on D.

Not to mention Nolan calling the shots with Nunnelly coaching up the D-line.

Time to put away the Cun*ler Violins and start getting fired up around here!
if we hit on 5 or 6 solid picks out of the 10 this year and another 5 next year along with the past two years guys coming on, plus the solid vets we have, well be in fine shape.

Could see six or seven picks on D this year and possibly 3 or 4 on O with a QB, RB, WR and Center (maybe) to develop taken this year.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
We've gotten older, slower, and significantly worse at QB, not to mention very green in the FO and coach = 4-12 bank it!

We needed some veteran leadership. The team had gotten dysfunctional and robotic.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Beginning with the loss of Al Wilson and jake Plummer we have become very much a team playing without any passion. I do blame Cutler for some of that because he is the QB and his mopyness did matter. The effort last season in the last three games is inexcusable IMO.

Rohirrim
04-09-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm going to wait until after the draft to get a feel for next season. Right now, my prediction hasn't changed from when Shanahan was still here: 4-12.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:24 AM
There's always the Atlanta and Arizona factor to give us optimism ... but realistically, we're a 6 or 7 win team this year. Too many changes - changes all across the board.

Plus we play the NFC East ... that's 3 maybe 4 losses right there, those are all good teams, save maybe Washington.

cmhargrove
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
Our defense minus Slowik was a vast improvement.

Using Elvis properly could be huge.
Using Guys like Peterson, Thomas, and Powell properly on the outside could be much better against the run. But, we need another NT.

Our defense should look better, and keep their helmets properly attached to their heads...

baja
04-09-2009, 11:28 AM
There's always the Atlanta and Arizona factor to give us optimism ... but realistically, we're a 6 or 7 win team this year. Too many changes - changes all across the board. Plus we play the NFC East ... that's 3, maybe even 4 losses there, tghose are all good teams, save maybe Washington.

This thread is not about wins or loses, it's about fielding a team that loves to play football and it shows. That is what we have let slip away here in Denver IMO. and I really believe McD will bring that back, 05 was the last time we had any of that.

Hotrod
04-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Beginning with the loss of Al Wilson and jake Plummer we have become very much a team playing without any passion. I do blame Cutler for some of that because he is the QB and his mopyness did matter. The effort last season in the last three games is inexcusable IMO.

QFT

Jay is not a leader period.

cmhargrove
04-09-2009, 11:30 AM
One of my concerns is the team needs to find its own identity. I dont think we really have one right now.

God I miss Al Wilson, Atwater, Easy Ed etc.....

I wish Woodyard could be 20 lbs heavier. With guys like Woodyard, Dawkins, and maybe a Delmas or Chung - we could have an attitude in a hurry. The D-line is still the big question to me. Where will they stick all our d-tackles? How many convert to End, and how many try to bulk up for NT? That's what I am wondering right now.

Florida_Bronco
04-09-2009, 11:40 AM
Yeah ... but I did notice Vernon Fox is still on the roster hmmm...

Vernon Fox did pretty good in the limited time he played. He'll be a good backup and special teamer.

Hotrod
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
It would be rather refreshing to see someone actually get pissed/fired up/upset on the sideline when we are losing.

The last 3 weeks showed a total lack of heart Period.

Dedhed
04-09-2009, 11:44 AM
A team that loses games is not a competitive team. Losing is for losers.Which is exactly why we're here. We've been losers for the better part of a decade.

TheDave
04-09-2009, 11:48 AM
look at the brightside... Our new super competitive team should compete just enough to get us the 5th pick in next years draft. ;D

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
This thread is not about wins or loses, it's about fielding a team that loves to play football and it shows. That is what we have let slip away here in Denver IMO. and I really believe McD will bring that back, 05 was the last time we had any of that.

He might ... I hope he does.

But he could also devolve into a stumbling, rah-rah kid, his losses could easily mount, and he could be gone in 2011. Statistically that is far more likely.

gyldenlove
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Which is exactly why we're here. We've been losers for the better part of a decade.

Yup, and if you think that will change you are cheating yourself.

BroncoMan4ever
04-09-2009, 12:08 PM
if we can get good production out of the running game to keep defenses honest, and from being able to rush the QB like crazy, behind our line Orton will be fine. with Nolan being the tough intense bastard he is, he defense will be better, and wih actual notice paid attention to the defense it will be better

we may not see it in the wins column, but i think we are going to be a more balanced better team than we were last year.

DHallblows
04-09-2009, 12:56 PM
No it's a team that is learning to play together within a new system on both sides of the ball and is an eager team that plays with intensity.

A team that will lose games while bring it together.

I'm thinking we will see a much stronger team at the end of the season unlike previous years.

I can agree with you there :)

Moral of the story, regardless of any personnel changes, a Slowik-free D will be significantly better, so I can't argue with that...

baja
04-09-2009, 12:59 PM
He might ... I hope he does.

But he could also devolve into a stumbling, rah-rah kid, his losses could easily mount, and he could be gone in 2011. Statistically that is far more likely.

That's where trust in Bowlen comes into play.

Some do some don't and that is the root of the rift on the board my friend.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-09-2009, 01:06 PM
You want attitude? Draft Rey Rey!

baja
04-09-2009, 01:08 PM
works for me as long as he can play at a level that backs up the tude.

vancejohnson82
04-09-2009, 01:08 PM
My hope is that we can play with some fire during the games against KC and Oakland and San Diego...those used to be big fired up games with lots of popping...

san diego embarrassed us...and the KC and OAK losses were TERRIBLE

Cito Pelon
04-09-2009, 01:19 PM
Of course the team is much better, more competitive.

Better players, better coaches. Dumping the overrated Shanahan was overdue by about 8 years.

Dumping the overrated Cutler will make the same amount of difference dumping the overrated Shanahan will - none.

baja
04-09-2009, 01:21 PM
Of course the team is much better, more competitive.

Better players, better coaches. Dumping the overrated Shanahan was overdue by about 8 years.

<b>Dumping the overrated Cutler will make the same amount of difference dumping the overrated Shanahan will - none.

Why bother than?

baja
04-09-2009, 01:26 PM
Two polls compared;

The play with more intensity poll;

Yes, we will we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity. 49 62.03%


No, we are going to struggle. 30 37.97%


-----------------------------------------------------

The Orton better fit than Cutler poll;


Yes McD needs a team player that can read and react not take risks trying to make something happen 67 43.79%


No Jay has all the talent he just needs to mature, his next contract will kill the cap 86 56.21%



---------------------------------------------

So 56% think Jay would be better in McDs system yet with Orton starting 62% think we will play with more intensity. Why is that?

Ambiguous
04-09-2009, 02:50 PM
if we can get good production out of the running game to keep defenses honest, and from being able to rush the QB like crazy, behind our line Orton will be fine. with Nolan being the tough intense bastard he is, he defense will be better, and wih actual notice paid attention to the defense it will be better

we may not see it in the wins column, but i think we are going to be a more balanced better team than we were last year.

Sweet, our offense is going to suck as bad as our defense now!

BroncoMan4ever
04-09-2009, 03:31 PM
Sweet, our offense is going to suck as bad as our defense now!

our offense was good at moving the ball last year, not scoring. so we weren't exactly elite.

people aren't seeing that. 2nd ranked offense means nothing if you can't score. Jay's passing yards don't mean anything if he couldn't get us into the end zone or limit his turnovers.

now i do think we would be better had Jay stayed here, but 370 points a year isn't exactly a tough mountain to match or pass for Orton, if he has a running game to help him.

if we can get production out of the running game, we will see less turnovers, and more scoring.

but considering our schedule, and the fact that a lot of our defense is either really old or really young and a new QB, it is more likely that we may end up with a worse record than last season, but have a better all around team that has a core group of guys that are going to be ready to compete in a year or 2.

frerottenextelway
04-09-2009, 03:37 PM
I see us going 1-5 in the division and most of those are our easier games. Maybe 4-12 or 5-11 overall. But who knows. Hopefully somebody is worse than us.

misturanderson
04-09-2009, 03:40 PM
We've gotten older, slower, and significantly worse at QB, not to mention very green in the FO and coach = 4-12 bank it!

You are aware that Cutler and Orton will be the same age in like 3 weeks right?

lazarus4444
04-09-2009, 04:30 PM
wow, the depth of self-misery and stupidity on this board is frightening.

I think we'll be in the playoffs as a wildcard and we may actually win our first playoff game. Call me crazy but this will be a much improved team over the last few years and we're going to score a lot of points.

In fact, i wouldn't be surprised at all if Orton just blew up with sick stats next year and changed everybodies perception of him. Sure, Cutler is talented, nobody would deny that, but the guy had great talent around him.

Either way, it should be an interesting year in the entire NFL.

Dedhed
04-09-2009, 05:24 PM
Yup, and if you think that will change you are cheating yourself.

Cheating myself of what, exactly?

Punisher
04-09-2009, 05:29 PM
I'll be shocked if we make it to the playoffs this year....

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Crap defenese, new offensive system with a mediocre QB and an O-line designed for the zone blocking scheme which we won't be running any longer, not to mention a coach who may not know what he's doing.

6-10 is a good bet.

DBroncos4life
04-09-2009, 05:48 PM
We don't even know how we drafted yet.

Eldorado
04-09-2009, 05:52 PM
A shake up was needed, to this most now agree.

Most ****in idiots.

Dedhed
04-09-2009, 05:53 PM
We don't even know how we drafted yet.

We don't know anything yet.

TDmvp
04-09-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Baja:
Yes, we will we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity.

http://lildreamer469.homestead.com/files/English_Motherfer_Do_You_Speak_It_censored.jpg

DBroncos4life
04-09-2009, 06:07 PM
We don't know anything yet.

Isn't that just what I said?

baja
04-09-2009, 06:24 PM
Most ****in idiots.

Did someone help you with the structure of that sentence. It is exquisitely worded.

SportinOne
04-09-2009, 06:32 PM
No it's a team that is learning to play together within a new system on both sides of the ball and is an eager team that plays with intensity.

A team that will lose games while bring it together.

I'm thinking we will see a much stronger team at the end of the season unlike previous years.

Hoping? Certainly. Thinking? Hmm

Eldorado
04-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Did someone help you with the structure of that sentence. It is exquisitely worded.

Hey loser. You still angry over the butt raping? Maybe you should start a poll for help.

"What's the best way for baja to get over past failures?"

TDmvp
04-09-2009, 06:41 PM
Did someone help you with the structure of that sentence. It is exquisitely worded.


You have zero leg to stand on when dissing grammar ... And i typo / mistype stuff all the time , but i don't take every chance to crap on someone else who does it ...




Baja:
Do you think we will see a more competitive teams going forward...
Yes, we will we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity.
No, we are going to struggle.





I mean come don't $hit on peoples grammar when you yourself type/write like a dyslexic one armed monkey . Hell only reason I posted that "Do you Speak it" pic is I see you $hit on others grammar so much I found it ironic when it takes a super decoder ring to make it through half the crap you post ...


Hypocrisy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite

baja
04-09-2009, 06:44 PM
http://lildreamer469.homestead.com/files/English_Motherfer_Do_You_Speak_It_censored.jpg

I agree but hard to proof read when the letters are scrawling and than disappearing.

mhgaffney
04-09-2009, 06:45 PM
No it's a team that is learning to play together within a new system on both sides of the ball and is an eager team that plays with intensity.

A team that will lose games while bring it together.

I'm thinking we will see a much stronger team at the end of the season unlike previous years.

Yes, this would be a cause for celebration. To get stronger as the season wears on.

Eldorado
04-09-2009, 06:49 PM
I agree but hard to proof read when the letters are scrawling and than disappearing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/phapster/lol-wut.jpg

SureShot
04-09-2009, 06:50 PM
I want to see some moxie on the field dammit!

TotallyScrewed
04-09-2009, 08:01 PM
A shake up was needed, to this most now agree.

Where we differ ( 44% to 56% ) is how we feel about the cutler issue but we do have a season coming up.

What does that team show on the field?

I say we will become know for our Intensity, defensive aggressiveness and good Special Teams play.

This team will show the intensity of a beheaded snake. It's scary until you realize that dispite the thrashing and coiling, it's harmless. I'm thinking 4 wins will be amazing.

TheChamp24
04-09-2009, 08:35 PM
wow, the depth of self-misery and stupidity on this board is frightening.

I think we'll be in the playoffs as a wildcard and we may actually win our first playoff game. Call me crazy but this will be a much improved team over the last few years and we're going to score a lot of points.

In fact, i wouldn't be surprised at all if Orton just blew up with sick stats next year and changed everybodies perception of him. Sure, Cutler is talented, nobody would deny that, but the guy had great talent around him.

Either way, it should be an interesting year in the entire NFL.

Okay homer, but the realists, like myself, see the team isn't that good to begin with.
We got incredibly lucky to win games that we did last year. We were outscored by 78 points last year, and our losses were awful. Only 2 losses were by less than 2 scores. 5 losses were by more than 10 points, and 1 loss by 9 points. That is freakin awful.
The offense will be decent, but that defense is still a work in progress. I don't see them being able to improve that much to warrant a playoff appearance, especially wild card. Only way we get in the playoffs is if we win the division going 9-7. If we do win 9 games, I will be freakin estatic because that will be way above my expectations.

Hamrob
04-09-2009, 08:43 PM
Hey, you don't fire a HOF coach and kick a potential all-time great QB to the curb if you think you're going to suck.

Bowlen...must beleive we are going to be better than we were the last two years. Shouldn't he?

baja
04-09-2009, 09:07 PM
<b>This team will show the intensity of a beheaded snake. </b> It's scary until you realize that dispite the thrashing and coiling, it's harmless. I'm thinking 4 wins will be amazing.


LOL nice visual, I'll be shocked if it's that bad.

TDmvp
04-09-2009, 09:24 PM
LOL nice visual, I'll be shocked if it's that bad.

And AS BIG as a Shanny guy and Jay to some degree , at least till he and it all just became a big clusterfu#k and it needed to be ended ...

But on D last year we kinda looked like that snake visual .

Lots of flopping , leaping at stuff and missing , lunging , and just sucking in general ...


Never in my life can I remember yelling at the TV more watching my Broncs then last year and/or just having that total disbelief look and stunned silence ... After a typical what should have been 5-10 yard play would go for 50 ....


It was like 3 times a game our D looked like this Hilarious!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gHbzQoXuxdU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gHbzQoXuxdU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

DBBBSBS
04-09-2009, 09:32 PM
Hey, you don't fire a HOF coach and kick a potential all-time great QB to the curb if you think you're going to suck.

Bowlen...must beleive we are going to be better than we were the last two years. Shouldn't he?

dont live in the past... !Booya!

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 09:47 PM
This thread is not about wins or loses, it's about fielding a team that loves to play football and it shows. That is what we have let slip away here in Denver IMO. and I really believe McD will bring that back, 05 was the last time we had any of that.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but that's nothing but loser talk and trying to make yourself feel good about a team that will most likely suck ass this year and for the forseeable future.

You can put lipstick on a pig...

Anytime you have to start a stament with "it's not about wins or loses" you automatically lose. Everything in this sport is about W's, L's, and championsips. Bottom line.

This is nothing more than an attempt to cut McD some slack when he deserves none based on his actions up to this point.

baja
04-09-2009, 10:06 PM
I can appreciate where you're coming from, but that's nothing but loser talk and trying to make yourself feel good about a team that will most likely suck ass this year and for the foreseeable future.

You can put lipstick on a pig...

Anytime you have to start a stament with "it's not about wins or loses" you automatically lose. <b> Everything in this sport is about W's, L's, and championsips. Bottom line.</b>

This is nothing more than an attempt to cut McD some slack when he deserves none based on his actions up to this point.

If that is true than the logical thing to do is follow a winner.

You would love the Connecticut Women's basketball team. 39 and 0.

I can live with a rebuild but please no more three year long efforts that climax in fielding a team that played like we did the last three games of the season. Give me a red Miller team at least they came to play. Wins are great but showing up is a good first step to that. I like a good hard fought game preferably ending in a win but it better be hard fought or I'm gonna find something else to do on Sunday.

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 10:20 PM
If that is true than the logical thing to do is follow a winner.

You would love the Connecticut Women's basketball team. 39 and 0.

I can live with a rebuild but please no more three year long efforts that climax in fielding a team that played like we did the last three games of the season. Give me a red Miller team at least they came to play. Wins are great but showing up is a good first step to that. I like a good hard fought game preferably ending in a win but it better be hard fought or I'm gonna find something else to do on Sunday.

Oh man, the "I'm a better fan than you" card. Orginial.

But hey, it's not about winning right? Just try real hard guys yeah! Hint: This isn't U-12 soccer, it's the NFL. It's about winning.

baja
04-09-2009, 10:23 PM
Oh man, the "I'm a better fan than you" card. Orginial.

If is just about wins why not just watch the NFL game ticker.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 10:28 PM
I can live with a rebuild but please no more three year long efforts that climax in fielding a team that played like we did the last three games of the season.
That's very possibly what we can expect. It will take a minimum of two years to rebuild the defense just to respectability assuming the new braintrust has a clue in the draft, during which time he'll be trying to run a power running game with an O-line built for the stretch zone scheme...then it's time to find a QB...two more to get him playing.

baja
04-09-2009, 10:34 PM
That's very possibly what we can expect. It will take a minimum of two years to rebuild the defense just to respectability assuming the new braintrust has a clue in the draft, during which time he'll be trying to run a power running game with an O-line built for the stretch zone scheme...then it's time to find a QB...two more to get him playing.

Well I guess we are all destined to go back and forth like this until we see a few games.

Popps
04-09-2009, 10:41 PM
Our defense was dog-****.

Our offense was in the middle of the road with regards to points... and there's no more important stat.

This team was stagnant, and going absolutely nowhere. We got worse on defense year after year, and while our passing yardage stats would have been great for fantasy football, they didn't amount to jack-****.

We've got an experienced, solid defensive mind running the defense... not a proven loser like Slowdeath. We've got the best young offensive mind in the game getting ready to use an offense with some great weapons in place.

We've got a wealth of great draft picks this and next year.

We've also brought in a couple of nice FA pick-ups, and some solid role players, and are still early in free agency.

This gloom and doom bull**** needs to be taken out of here. There's no reason to think this franchise is in shambles. Some people just want it to be true so their position looks like it made sense in hindsight.

USMCBladerunner
04-10-2009, 08:00 AM
Two polls compared;

The play with more intensity poll;

Yes, we will we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity. 49 62.03%


No, we are going to struggle. 30 37.97%


-----------------------------------------------------

The Orton better fit than Cutler poll;


Yes McD needs a team player that can read and react not take risks trying to make something happen 67 43.79%


No Jay has all the talent he just needs to mature, his next contract will kill the cap 86 56.21%



---------------------------------------------

So 56% think Jay would be better in McDs system yet with Orton starting 62% think we will play with more intensity. Why is that?

I can't tell if this is a rhetorical quesiton or not, but I'll bite. The short answer is that the team intensity will stem from the coach, not the QB. I think this team needed some changes in attitude, especially on D, but I didn't think they needed a new QB.

Broncojef
04-10-2009, 08:49 AM
I can't tell if this is a rhetorical quesiton or not, but I'll bite. The short answer is that the team intensity will stem from the coach, not the QB. I think this team needed some changes in attitude, especially on D, but I didn't think they needed a new QB.

Funny the QBs attitude most of the games I watched this last year totally pissed me off. The last three games of the year I turned the television set off swearing at Cutler, Shanahan and our defense. When Shanny said in the press conference in a business as usual way that Slowick would be retained and looked cross eyed at the reporter even having the audacity to question his DC genius I saw red, similar to when Shanahan told us Foster would be great we just didn't know how to evaluate talent and the we're so close to winning it all speech after getting blown out in Indy. Our attitude, accountablity and discipline has been lacking for a very long time and I'm happy to see McD take control and rid the lockroom of all attitudes no matter how much talent they may have. Start from the bottom and get guys that want to be a team and play hard. I can live with a 4-5 win season if we are building in the right direction to get to SuperBowls in a few years.

baja
04-10-2009, 09:05 AM
Funny the QBs attitude most of the games I watched this last year totally pissed me off. The last three games of the year I turned the television set off swearing at Cutler, Shanahan and our defense. When Shanny said in the press conference in a business as usual way that Slowick would be retained and looked cross eyed at the reporter even having the audacity to question his DC genius I saw red, similar to when Shanahan told us Foster would be great we just didn't know how to evaluate talent and the we're so close to winning it all speech after getting blown out in Indy. Our attitude, accountablity and discipline has been lacking for a very long time and I'm happy to see McD take control and rid the lockroom of all attitudes no matter how much talent they may have. Start from the bottom and get guys that want to be a team and play hard. I can live with a 4-5 win season if we are building in the right direction to get to SuperBowls in a few years.

Good take. I find it interesting that some of the people that are pissed about moving the disgruntled Cutler believe we will play with more intensity and team spirit.

Gort
04-10-2009, 10:01 AM
Club Med @ Dove Valley is now closed.

that alone will lead to a better prepared, more physical team.

wasn't Gradishar disgusted by how soft the Broncos trained under Shanny?

gyldenlove
04-10-2009, 10:11 AM
Our defense was dog-****.

Our offense was in the middle of the road with regards to points... and there's no more important stat.

This team was stagnant, and going absolutely nowhere. We got worse on defense year after year, and while our passing yardage stats would have been great for fantasy football, they didn't amount to jack-****.

We've got an experienced, solid defensive mind running the defense... not a proven loser like Slowdeath. We've got the best young offensive mind in the game getting ready to use an offense with some great weapons in place.

We've got a wealth of great draft picks this and next year.

We've also brought in a couple of nice FA pick-ups, and some solid role players, and are still early in free agency.

This gloom and doom bull**** needs to be taken out of here. There's no reason to think this franchise is in shambles. Some people just want it to be true so their position looks like it made sense in hindsight.

Our new HC has done has damndest to run some of those weapons out of town, one down, one could be on the way.

We have a ton of draft picks and nobody who knows what to do with them.

I liked the Brian Dawkins signing, he is a leader and a winner, he is also very old and only a shadow of the player he used to be. We replaced one average aging CB with another, we added a decent safety which definitely helped our weakest position. Other than that we have added non-entities that other teams had no interest in. You are right it is still early, there are a ton of other aging players out there that no other teams want any part of we can sign.

We went into the offseason with a defense that couldn't stop water from running uphill, aside from getting a bit of help at the safety position we have gone nowhere on defense. Our best defensive lineman is gone (Ekuban), our worst defensive lineman is gone (Engelberger) and we are left with the people who weren't good enough last year.

We also went into the offseason with arguably the top young passing offense in the league, with depth at the interior line, depth at WR and a RB being the only obvious holes. Our QB is gone and we are left with entirely underwhelming replacements, we have brought in a couple of RBs with a laundry list of severe injuries between them and a guy who wasn't even good enough to be a backup (Arrington), we did bring in Gaffney who is a very average WR. Not to mention our top pass catching TE is not exactly on great terms with the coaching staff.

In an interesting turn of events we may be one of the few teams to come out of free agency with more holes than when we went in.

At least the Broncos are doing better than AIG and GM though.

Shoemaker
04-10-2009, 10:54 AM
Well, thank goodness for educated posters on the Orange Mane.

Here I was thinking that I could wait to see who we drafted, see what goes on in the minicamps and training camp, and then start trying to figure out what kind of team we're going to have in 2009.

Luckily, since I read this board I know we have an idiot coach with a pathetic team that will be terrible all year and should be lucky to win 4 games out of 16.

Thanks so much, all you realists. Now I don't have to go through the trouble of getting excited for football next year! Boy, THAT'S a load off, huh?

bronco610
04-10-2009, 12:54 PM
A shake up was needed, to this most now agree.

Where we differ ( 44% to 56% ) is how we feel about the cutler issue but we do have a season coming up.

What does that team show on the field?

I say we will become know for our Intensity, defensive aggressiveness and good Special Teams play.

Yeah Right ........:P

Broncojef
04-10-2009, 02:38 PM
At least the Broncos are doing better than AIG and GM though.

The broncos are doing what AIG and GM should have done. Cutler and Shanahan were failures and Bowlen has set about scrapping the old plan and starting anew. GM and AIG should have been allowed to fail and go out of business. Some things succeed, some things fail. When you prop up failure with no plan to change you get what you have now with AIG, GM and Shanahan the last few years...just more of the same. Whats really amazing is the thought of the government to just throw money at a failing business model will some how cure everything. The Broncos are better at this point because they cut bait, made the hard change and have set course in a new direction.

watermock
04-10-2009, 03:41 PM
we may not see it in the wins column, but i think we are going to be a more balanced better team than we were last year.

You mean the offense will equally bad as the defense or ST's?

Atwater His Ass
04-10-2009, 07:46 PM
You mean the offense will equally bad as the defense or ST's?

Wins don't matter anymore mock, didn't you get the memo?

McD's mom is bringing orange slices for half time and then Pat's takin'em all out for ice cream afterwards.

baja
04-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Looks like lots of people think we are moving in the right direction.

View Poll Results: <b>Do you think we will see a more competitive teams going forward...

Yes, we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity. </b>

27atwater, 521 1N5, aborquez147, aldren, ant1999e, Arkie, baja, bandwagonjumper, billa303, Binkythefrog, borrissey, BoulderBum, Broncojef, BroncoMan4ever, Broncos Brazil, Broncos dude, broncos-rock, Broncos123, Broncos24, BroncoTek, BronoBubba, CBF1, chadwick1, chex, Chidoze, Chris, ChrisSimpy, Cito Pelon, cmhargrove, ColoradoDarin, Cool Breeze, CoopDawg, corodder, crush17, cutthemdown, dbroncos31, Dedhed, dekers, Doggcow, Dortoh, Doug, ElwayMD, enjolras, Fan In Exile, Garcia Bronco, gobroncos313, go_broncos, Hamrob, HEAV, HitmanHouston, Hulamau, I bleed orange and blue, Inkana7, itherapies, jacob2125, jbs7730, JCMElway, Kaylore, KillerBronco#76, KS Bronco, lazarus4444, Malcontent, meangene, MightySmurf, misturanderson, Mk69, mkporter, Moon§hiner, MplsBronco, MrPeepers, nadwiggins, Natedogg, NCSTBronco, Nemesis, Northman, NYBronco, OregonBronco, OSKIE!!!, Paladin, Phantom, prodigalson139, ragamuffin, randomtask, RMT, RocBronc, RubberDuckie24, rugbythug, Rusty Shackleford, scorpio, ScottXray, Shoemaker, sirhcyennek81, sirsam, sisterhellfyre, skpac1001, Smiling Assassin27, snowspot66, spdirty, spoon7, srphoenix, Tankgunner95, telluride, ThatOneDenverMooseGuy, toad, troyjbath, tubbs, vancejohnson82, WhoIsJohnGalt, wolf754life, WyoLaw <b>110 65.09% </b>


<b>No, we are going to struggle. </b>
400HZ, 56crash, ambiguous, Anaximines, atomicbloke, BFDD, Bleed n Orange, BMarsh615, bombquixote, bronclvr, bronco610, BroncoBuff, broncofan7, BroncoInSkinland, cdesignmaster, colonelbeef, cutler_to_marshall, DBBBSBS, DBroncos4life, Denver Ultra, Don Flamenco, DrewB, DrFate, footstepsfrom#27, frerottenextelway, GoWYO, gyldenlove, Hercules Rockefeller, houghtam, Houshyamama, KipCorrington25, Liquid Courage, listopencil, LonghornBronco, lostknight, ludo21, mikeauran, MileHighMagic, Natedog24, olia, orange crusher, OrangeRising, Orbital, qball_da_man, Raidersbane, Ray_Lewis'_Victim, rovolution, Rugby7, sazwaz, scttgrd, shaunroach, Sir Mawn, Steve Sewell, SureShot, TheChamp, TheDave, watermock, x123z, yerner
<b>59 34.91% </b>

SoCalBronco
04-10-2009, 10:57 PM
At least the Broncos are doing better than AIG and GM though.

Give it some time. :)

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 12:49 AM
I want to see some moxie on the field dammit!

i agree. i can deal with a losing season if i see the team actually fighting until the end and trying to get better. but the last few years we just quit once a game got out of reach or the season almost over. if there is desire and some fight in these guys at the end of the year that can be built upon, i will be fine with a losing record, because i will see with the team that it is headed in the right direction and will become good again.

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 12:55 AM
You mean the offense will equally bad as the defense or ST's?

since that is my quote i will defend it.

i meant that while our team may go 6-10 or something like that, that we will actually be a better team than last season.

the offense should be able to match the 23 PPG Jay was getting us last season
the defense will be better, just because of good coaching

STs better for the same reason as the defense.

i am just saying that while we may not see it in the wins, we will be better than we were last season. the team will be competitive, and battle until the end. it will be a season to build upon, and get better.


i hate saying this because i hate our coach, but Jay didn't really set the bar so high in terms of points or wins for our offense that we should be so sad he is gone or that Orton will be worried he can't match his output.

the guy has all the talent in the world, but 370 points for a season isn't exactly a hard total to match.

Dedhed
04-11-2009, 03:06 AM
We have a ton of draft picks and nobody who knows what to do with them.


Idiotic comments like this drive me up the wall.

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 08:38 AM
Idiotic comments like this drive me up the wall.

So who do we have with any experience in drafting?

Mcdaniels who has never been involved with the draft in New England by his own admission?

Xanders who was a salary cap guy in Atlanta and here and not involved in player evaluation?

The people who did our drafting, Ted Sundquist, Shanahan, the Goodmans are all gone. Joe Ellis is the only one left who has been involved before.

I know you hate it when your little sand castle that you build so carefully gets toppled, but for gods sake please realize that that everything is not peachy-keen. You will be better off for it in the long run.

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 08:40 AM
i agree. i can deal with a losing season if i see the team actually fighting until the end and trying to get better. but the last few years we just quit once a game got out of reach or the season almost over. if there is desire and some fight in these guys at the end of the year that can be built upon, i will be fine with a losing record, because i will see with the team that it is headed in the right direction and will become good again.

If we have a losing season Mcdaniels has failed.

Shanahan was a failure because he couldn't get a winning season and he got fired deservedly. If Mcdaniels can't even replicate Shanahans results then he is an even bigger failure.

colonelbeef
04-11-2009, 08:46 AM
Our new HC has done has damndest to run some of those weapons out of town, one down, one could be on the way.

We have a ton of draft picks and nobody who knows what to do with them.

I liked the Brian Dawkins signing, he is a leader and a winner, he is also very old and only a shadow of the player he used to be. We replaced one average aging CB with another, we added a decent safety which definitely helped our weakest position. Other than that we have added non-entities that other teams had no interest in. You are right it is still early, there are a ton of other aging players out there that no other teams want any part of we can sign.

We went into the offseason with a defense that couldn't stop water from running uphill, aside from getting a bit of help at the safety position we have gone nowhere on defense. Our best defensive lineman is gone (Ekuban), our worst defensive lineman is gone (Engelberger) and we are left with the people who weren't good enough last year.

We also went into the offseason with arguably the top young passing offense in the league, with depth at the interior line, depth at WR and a RB being the only obvious holes. Our QB is gone and we are left with entirely underwhelming replacements, we have brought in a couple of RBs with a laundry list of severe injuries between them and a guy who wasn't even good enough to be a backup (Arrington), we did bring in Gaffney who is a very average WR. Not to mention our top pass catching TE is not exactly on great terms with the coaching staff.

In an interesting turn of events we may be one of the few teams to come out of free agency with more holes than when we went in.

At least the Broncos are doing better than AIG and GM though.

All true, all sad.

elsid13
04-11-2009, 08:47 AM
To think that we are not going to struggle is wearing the rose colored glasses.

Looks at the areas of concern

~ Denver is changing the scheme on offense, defense and ST.
~ Denver has number of players that are going to be asked to shift new positions on defense,
~Denver has added number of players that will need to learn to work together.
~Denver still have not addressed the running back position,
~Denver is most likely asking a rookie NT to come in make immediate impact

Not recipe for success.

WolfpackGuy
04-11-2009, 08:59 AM
Shanahan was a failure because he couldn't get a winning season and he got fired deservedly. If Mcdaniels can't even replicate Shanahans results then he is an even bigger failure.

Agreed, Shanahan's woeful drafts/free agent busts finally caught up with him, but in his defense, he never allowed the Broncos to go through a total rebuild/salary cap purge. It's hard to be one of those teams consistently in the middle in today's NFL.

2KBack
04-11-2009, 09:16 AM
So who do we have with any experience in drafting?

Mcdaniels who has never been involved with the draft in New England by his own admission?

Xanders who was a salary cap guy in Atlanta and here and not involved in player evaluation?

The people who did our drafting, Ted Sundquist, Shanahan, the Goodmans are all gone. Joe Ellis is the only one left who has been involved before.

I know you hate it when your little sand castle that you build so carefully gets toppled, but for gods sake please realize that that everything is not peachy-keen. You will be better off for it in the long run.

No one here has officially been part of a draft either, yet we'll all act like we know better anyway.

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 09:20 AM
No one here has officially been part of a draft either, yet we'll all act like we know better anyway.

The draft is not like riding a bicycle, it is not something you can learn in an afternoon with some padding and a helmet.

If you took someone off the street and asked them to write a quantum mechanics exam, you could even allow them to have books and notes, they would fail. If you took someone off the street and asked them to put together a good draft, even if you gave them scouting reports they would probably fail, and I just don't see how a group of people with almost no combined experience can do well unless they get extremely lucky.

Tombstone RJ
04-11-2009, 09:37 AM
To think that we are not going to struggle is wearing the rose colored glasses.

Looks at the areas of concern

~ Denver is changing the scheme on offense, defense and ST.
~ Denver has number of players that are going to be asked to shift new positions on defense,
~Denver has added number of players that will need to learn to work together.
~Denver still have not addressed the running back position,
~Denver is most likely asking a rookie NT to come in make immediate impact

Not recipe for success.

Funny how posts like this completely ignore the quick turnaround of teams in the NFL time and time again the last 10-15 years. Just saying that to assume the Broncos will suck for the foreseeable future is just short sighted.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 11:30 AM
If we have a losing season Mcdaniels has failed.

Shanahan was a failure because he couldn't get a winning season and he got fired deservedly. If Mcdaniels can't even replicate Shanahans results then he is an even bigger failure.

Naturally, it remains to be seen if Josh can top Shanny, no?

Waahh, waaah, waaah. Get your binker at the door.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 11:45 AM
To think that we are not going to struggle is wearing the rose colored glasses.

Looks at the areas of concern

~ Denver is changing the scheme on offense, defense and ST.
~ Denver has number of players that are going to be asked to shift new positions on defense,
~Denver has added number of players that will need to learn to work together.
~Denver still have not addressed the running back position,
~Denver is most likely asking a rookie NT to come in make immediate impact

Not recipe for success.

I think you're making foolish assumptions.

baja
04-11-2009, 12:10 PM
If we have a losing season Mcdaniels has failed.

Shanahan was a failure because he couldn't get a winning season and he got fired deservedly. If Mcdaniels can't even replicate Shanahans results then he is an even bigger failure.

Ya and the complete makeover doesn't get even a season to work out the bumps. With your logic we will have a new coach every year. Glad your not Pat Bowlen.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 12:16 PM
If we have a losing season Mcdaniels has failed.

Can't realistically expect more than 8-8 this year ... you're correct of course, there's too many changes. New offense, new defense (7-8 new starters), new QB, new and inexperienced head coach. He's sfe this year though, no doubt, even at 4-12.

But if Josh has a losing season in 2010, he will be on the hot-seat. And in all likelihood, he'll be gone by 2012. That's just reality, that's just statistics. Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis both failed despite sky-high expectations, and they both failed even with serious experience before they left Belichick. Unlike Josh, whose only coaching experience came in a pre-existing dynasty.

Odds are he'll be gone in or before 2012. And Cutler will go to 6+ Pro Bowls after that.

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 12:26 PM
If we have a losing season Mcdaniels has failed.

Shanahan was a failure because he couldn't get a winning season and he got fired deservedly. If Mcdaniels can't even replicate Shanahans results then he is an even bigger failure.

sorry dude, but that is just ignorant. not even Mike was going to have a good season with our current schedule, the defense was going to be torn down regardless, and the only real plus would have been Jay. but he wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard last year. 23 PPG can be matched or improved upon by Orton if he has an adequate running game to help him out.

and if the team is playing harder and is showing signs of being able to get better in all phases of the game offense, defense and special teams, at the end of the season, then it is not a failure on McDaniels part.

i hate McDaniels and it bugs me to defend him, but if he has this team in a position to possibly compete in 2010, then he did a good job. the last few seasons under Mike, there hasn't exactly been much reason to have hope for the following season. defense getting progressively worse, continued risks on bad FA signings, neglect of the running game caused by an ego that said we can make anyone a star RB in our scheme, bad coaching decisions.

i will gladly take a season of 5-11 or 6-10 this year if it leads to seasons of 11-5 or better over the last few years of being around 8-8 under Mike with no signs of getting better.

SoCalBronco
04-11-2009, 12:26 PM
Ya and the complete makeover doesn't get even a season to work out the bumps. With your logic we will have a new coach every year. Glad your not Pat Bowlen.

No we wouldn't. This is a unique situation. In a normal situation, it would be reasonable to understand the scope and depth of a long term project, but not here, not with him. His conduct has been anything but normal and he shares a level of blame for what has occurred. Many fans are offended by him and many fans blame him for the loss of our franchise QB. This is not a normal situation. He's waived the right to get a normal grace period. As Krieger said, in just a few short months he ran off our QB and has demonstrated that nothing he says should be trusted. That's impressive...albeit in a bad kind of way. You might say that regardless of what people think, he hasn't "waived" the right to anything in Bowlen's eyes and its his opinion that is the only one that matters. But that would be wrong.

Do you remember what happened when we lost 41-3 to SD at home in 2007? Do you remember how fans had left en masse during the game. That occurred with Mike Shanahan at the helm, who is still loved by most of the fanbase (even if many of them think it was time for a change, anyway). What would happen to this guy if we have an ugly 2009? He hasn't done anything to win over the hearts and minds of people like Shanahan did. He's turned alot of folks against him from the word go. What do you think would happen if we got off to a real rocky start? The point is that Bowlen cannot make these decisions about how long McDaniels gets purely in the abstract, baja.

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 12:31 PM
Agreed, Shanahan's woeful drafts/free agent busts finally caught up with him, but in his defense, he never allowed the Broncos to go through a total rebuild/salary cap purge. It's hard to be one of those teams consistently in the middle in today's NFL.

ok, following a decade with only 1 really good season and 1 playoff win. wouldn't you rather have seen him rebuild for one season and reload the team and get them back to respectability.

sure we never rebuilt under him, but for the most part outside of 5 of his 14 years we were a mediocre team, because he wouldn't tear down and rebuild a better team, he just continued to limp along letting his system carry the team to around 8-8 every year.

1 season of rebuilding would have been fine if over the long run it improved the team, but he never did that and we were continually mediocre.

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Funny how posts like this completely ignore the quick turnaround of teams in the NFL time and time again the last 10-15 years. Just saying that to assume the Broncos will suck for the foreseeable future is just short sighted.

exactly, who in the football watching world would have thought the 1-15 Miami Dolphins from 2007 were going to be the 11-5 division winning Miami Dolphins of 2008?

it happens every year where a team thought to be a cellar dweller becomes a playoff team.

also lately in the NFL, it has been young 1st time HC who are coming out of nowhere to win a lot of games.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 12:48 PM
exactly, who in the football watching world would have thought the 1-15 Miami Dolphins from 2007 were going to be the 11-5 division winning Miami Dolphins of 2008?
it happens every year where a team thought to be a cellar dweller becomes a playoff team.
also lately in the NFL, it has been young 1st time HC who are coming out of nowhere to win a lot of games.

You and Tombstone are right with those examples. But all these recent turnaround teams, Falcons, Giants, Cards, Dolphins ... they all hired VERY experienced coaches as first-time head coaches (except Giants not 1st-time). These guys all had lots of experience, including experience losing. Which I think is VERY important. Who knows how Josh will respond to a 1-5 start? We've seen first-time head coaches coming outta that dynasty - Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis. And even they both had experience elsewhere before the Pats.

Now we have a guy whose ENTIRE experience was in a pre-existing dynasty. He's never experienced losing (except to Mike Shanahan at Invesco in the 2006 playoffs :~ohyah!:).

These problems - Goodman and Cutler - that and Josh's rank inexperience distinguish this situation from the Dolphins, Giants, Cards and Ravens. The Dolphins had a similar star-player defection when their new head coach came in ... but Bill Parcells handled it, NOT the coach. Had we left the Cutler problem to an experienced management type (instead of an infant), we wouldn't be suffering now with having lost him.

TheChamp24
04-11-2009, 12:50 PM
exactly, who in the football watching world would have thought the 1-15 Miami Dolphins from 2007 were going to be the 11-5 division winning Miami Dolphins of 2008?

it happens every year where a team thought to be a cellar dweller becomes a playoff team.

also lately in the NFL, it has been young 1st time HC who are coming out of nowhere to win a lot of games.

2007 worst teams:
Miami
Oakland
Kansas City
St Louis
San Francisco
Jets
Atlanta
Baltimore

2008 worst teams:
Detroit
St Louis
Seattle
Cincy
Cleveland
Jacksonville
Oakland
Kansas City

To be fair, the Jets added a lot in free agency.

2006 Worst teams:
Washington
Minnesota
Detroit
Tampa Bay
Arizona
Miami
Cleveland
Houston
Oakland

2007 Worst teams:
Miami
Oakland
Kansas City
St Louis
San Francisco
Jets
Atlanta
Baltimore

Miami was awful in 2006 and 2007, and then had a solid team last year. Heck, they were awful in 2004, with a decent year in 2005. So it took them 4 years to get back into being a serious playoff contender.
Oakland has sucked every year.
Kansas City hasn't done much, St. Louis hasn't, San Francisco hasn't, Cleveland had a good 2007 season but has stunk otherwise, Detroit has been awful.
So is it really that far off to assume the Broncos will take a tough year this year, and then maybe another year before we get back into playoff contender talk?

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 12:53 PM
Had we left the Cutler problem to an experienced management type (instead of an infant), we wouldn't be suffering now with having lost him.

BINGO!

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 01:06 PM
Agreed, Shanahan's woeful drafts/free agent busts finally caught up with him, but in his defense, he never allowed the Broncos to go through a total rebuild/salary cap purge. It's hard to be one of those teams consistently in the middle in today's NFL.

Yeah, it stinks. Not winning Division titles sucks. Zero AFC Titles since 1998 sucks. Been a long drought of insignificance.

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 01:10 PM
Ya and the complete makeover doesn't get even a season to work out the bumps. With your logic we will have a new coach every year. Glad your not Pat Bowlen.

It is a good thing you don't care if the team wins or loses.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 01:19 PM
No we wouldn't. This is a unique situation. In a normal situation, it would be reasonable to understand the scope and depth of a long term project, but not here, not with him. His conduct has been anything but normal and he shares a level of blame for what has occurred. Many fans are offended by him and many fans blame him for the loss of our franchise QB. This is not a normal situation. He's waived the right to get a normal grace period. As Krieger said, in just a few short months he ran off our QB and has demonstrated that nothing he says should be trusted. That's impressive...albeit in a bad kind of way. You might say that regardless of what people think, he hasn't "waived" the right to anything in Bowlen's eyes and its his opinion that is the only one that matters. But that would be wrong.

Do you remember what happened when we lost 41-3 to SD at home in 2007? Do you remember how fans had left en masse during the game. That occurred with Mike Shanahan at the helm, who is still loved by most of the fanbase (even if many of them think it was time for a change, anyway). What would happen to this guy if we have an ugly 2009? He hasn't done anything to win over the hearts and minds of people like Shanahan did. He's turned alot of folks against him from the word go. What do you think would happen if we got off to a real rocky start? The point is that Bowlen cannot make these decisions about how long McDaniels gets purely in the abstract, baja.

You sure are a sissy.

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 01:22 PM
sorry dude, but that is just ignorant. not even Mike was going to have a good season with our current schedule, the defense was going to be torn down regardless, and the only real plus would have been Jay. but he wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard last year. 23 PPG can be matched or improved upon by Orton if he has an adequate running game to help him out.

and if the team is playing harder and is showing signs of being able to get better in all phases of the game offense, defense and special teams, at the end of the season, then it is not a failure on McDaniels part.

i hate McDaniels and it bugs me to defend him, but if he has this team in a position to possibly compete in 2010, then he did a good job. the last few seasons under Mike, there hasn't exactly been much reason to have hope for the following season. defense getting progressively worse, continued risks on bad FA signings, neglect of the running game caused by an ego that said we can make anyone a star RB in our scheme, bad coaching decisions.

i will gladly take a season of 5-11 or 6-10 this year if it leads to seasons of 11-5 or better over the last few years of being around 8-8 under Mike with no signs of getting better.

"Rebuilding" doesn't guarantee success and it doesn't just take 1 year.

Look at Oakland who have been rebuilding for year, the 49ers, Detroit, Arizona.

Look at Kansas City, they have sucked for 2 years and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. I don't want us to be as bad as Kansas City.

If it guarantees an 11-5 year or better I would take a 4-12 year, but that just doesn't happen that often. Atlanta had a bad year in 2007 because they had an awful coach and a QB who went to jail. Miami had two awful years because they had an awful coach. Kansas City have so far had two awful years because of their GM. Cleveland has been mostly awful the last many years.

We were quite average as a team last year, why should we settle for being awful? Shanahan kept this team competitive despite not having a run game, the worst special teams in the league and one of the worst defenses.

Given that the probability of us having the same amount of injuries at RB this year as we did last year is very very minute and that there is almost no way we can be as bad on special teams and defense we should expect to win more games this year than we did last year. But because of the actions of our new head coach odds are that we will win fewer games even if our run game is improved and our defense doesn't suck as bad.

I am fully prepared to give Mcdaniels a grace period for this season, almost no matter how bad we are. But if we are not a winning team by 2010 the Mcdaniels experiment has failed and we should be entering the Bill Cowher sweepstakes if he is not taken.

baja
04-11-2009, 02:04 PM
No we wouldn't. This is a unique situation. In a normal situation, it would be reasonable to understand the scope and depth of a long term project, but not here, not with him. His conduct has been anything but normal and he shares a level of blame for what has occurred. Many fans are offended by him and many fans blame him for the loss of our franchise QB. This is not a normal situation. He's waived the right to get a normal grace period. As Krieger said, in just a few short months he ran off our QB and has demonstrated that nothing he says should be trusted. That's impressive...albeit in a bad kind of way. You might say that regardless of what people think, he hasn't "waived" the right to anything in Bowlen's eyes and its his opinion that is the only one that matters. But that would be wrong.

Do you remember what happened when we lost 41-3 to SD at home in 2007? Do you remember how fans had left en masse during the game. That occurred with Mike Shanahan at the helm, who is still loved by most of the fanbase (even if many of them think it was time for a change, anyway). What would happen to this guy if we have an ugly 2009? He hasn't done anything to win over the hearts and minds of people like Shanahan did. He's turned alot of folks against him from the word go. What do you think would happen if we got off to a real rocky start? The point is that Bowlen cannot make these decisions about how long McDaniels gets purely in the abstract, baja.

I went back and forth about responding to this post or not. I disagree with almost every point of your post but the important thing is going to be what Pat Bowlen thinks and I will take a serious bet that McD gets two years at least ( I think he will prove to be a great coach that will be here as long as Shanny was). What you see as outrageous moves by McDaniels I see as necessary but gutsy to the extreme. It's really tough to come in here and take the bold steps to fix this teams root problems not just a yearly patch like the last several years, McD cleaned house and the house cleaning included Cutler. Bowlen has given him a free hand in the remake which is the quickest most through way to success or failure. The difference between you and me is I see great moves and you see foolish destruction of what was not broken and only time will prove one of us right. Of course that is going to be me.;D

El Minion
04-11-2009, 02:07 PM
You and Tombstone are right with those examples. But all these recent turnaround teams, Falcons, Giants, Cards, Dolphins ... they all hired VERY experienced coaches as first-time head coaches (except Giants not 1st-time). These guys all had lots of experience, including experience losing. Which I think is VERY important. Who knows how Josh will respond to a 1-5 start? We've seen first-time head coaches coming outta that dynasty - Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis. And even they both had experience elsewhere before the Pats.

Now we have a guy whose ENTIRE experience was in a pre-existing dynasty. He's never experienced losing (except to Mike Shanahan at Invesco in the 2006 playoffs :~ohyah!:).

These problems - Goodman and Cutler - that and Josh's rank inexperience distinguish this situation from the Dolphins, Giants, Cards and Ravens. The Dolphins had a similar star-player defection when their new head coach came in ... but Bill Parcells handled it, NOT the coach. Had we left the Cutler problem to an experienced management type (instead of an infant), we wouldn't be suffering now with having lost him.

All those teams had experienced NFL people in the FO.

ATL-Dimitroff former Director of College Scouting and years working under Rich McKay
NYG-Reese former Director of Pro Personnel and spent years learning from Accorsi. Started with a great first draft that helped win a third SB for the Giants.
ARI-Graves, former scout and Director of Player Personnel and has been GM for over ten years. Also has had great first day drafts, starting with taking Plummer in '97.
MIA-Parcells, res ipsa loquitur

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 03:41 PM
You and Tombstone are right with those examples. But all these recent turnaround teams, Falcons, Giants, Cards, Dolphins ... they all hired VERY experienced coaches as first-time head coaches (except Giants not 1st-time). These guys all had lots of experience, including experience losing. Which I think is VERY important. Who knows how Josh will respond to a 1-5 start? We've seen first-time head coaches coming outta that dynasty - Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis. And even they both had experience elsewhere before the Pats.

Now we have a guy whose ENTIRE experience was in a pre-existing dynasty. He's never experienced losing (except to Mike Shanahan at Invesco in the 2006 playoffs :~ohyah!:).

These problems - Goodman and Cutler - that and Josh's rank inexperience distinguish this situation from the Dolphins, Giants, Cards and Ravens. The Dolphins had a similar star-player defection when their new head coach came in ... but Bill Parcells handled it, NOT the coach. Had we left the Cutler problem to an experienced management type (instead of an infant), we wouldn't be suffering now with having lost him.

Jeez, you're just milking this to hone your sophistry skills.

Sophistry: unsound or misleading arguments; but clever, plausible and subtle argument or reasoning

Yus, that defines Buff.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 03:47 PM
All those teams had experienced NFL people in the FO.

ATL-Dimitroff former Director of College Scouting and years working under Rich McKay
NYG-Reese former Director of Pro Personnel and spent years learning from Accorsi. Started with a great first draft that helped win a third SB for the Giants.
ARI-Graves, former scout and Director of Player Personnel and has been GM for over ten years. Also has had great first day drafts, starting with taking Plummer in '97.
MIA-Parcells, res ipsa loquitur

AWESOME POINTS!

And that goes directly to my REAL beef ... that Josh's rank inexperience in front office matters is a big contributor to thse problems. I'm sure he's an exccellent offensive coach, might even become an excellent head coach. But he is a rank amateur at FO stuff - no doubt - and we're suffering because of it.

Dedhed
04-11-2009, 04:06 PM
No we wouldn't. This is a unique situation. In a normal situation, it would be reasonable to understand the scope and depth of a long term project, but not here, not with him. His conduct has been anything but normal and he shares a level of blame for what has occurred. Many fans are offended by him and many fans blame him for the loss of our franchise QB. This is not a normal situation. He's waived the right to get a normal grace period. As Krieger said, in just a few short months he ran off our QB and has demonstrated that nothing he says should be trusted. That's impressive...albeit in a bad kind of way. You might say that regardless of what people think, he hasn't "waived" the right to anything in Bowlen's eyes and its his opinion that is the only one that matters. But that would be wrong.

Do you remember what happened when we lost 41-3 to SD at home in 2007? Do you remember how fans had left en masse during the game. That occurred with Mike Shanahan at the helm, who is still loved by most of the fanbase (even if many of them think it was time for a change, anyway). What would happen to this guy if we have an ugly 2009? He hasn't done anything to win over the hearts and minds of people like Shanahan did. He's turned alot of folks against him from the word go. What do you think would happen if we got off to a real rocky start? The point is that Bowlen cannot make these decisions about how long McDaniels gets purely in the abstract, baja.I think Broncos fans are smarter than that and realize that in this league you sometimes have to take a step backwards in order to take 3 steps forward.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 04:18 PM
SoCal is right that losing Cutler shortened the leash on MCDaniles, and will add greatly to his pressure to win. Great example SoCal, that home game loss to the Chugs (I remember it as Nalen's last-ever NFL game), to point out that our fans are no longer the "Most Diehard" like they were in the 70s.

But Bowlen's opinion is all that really matters, at least concerning Josh's employment ... and since Jay dissed Bowlen by ignoring his calls, I doubt Pat's gonna screw down the vise on Josh too soon.




THIS is an ultimate point: I believe Jay Cutler will be going to Pro Bowls after Josh is gone as Broncos HC.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 04:24 PM
Maybe, but you picked the wrong post as an example of sophistry.

Most of that post is simple facts ... and I notice you didn't argue the substance of it ???



(Besides, I ALWAYS make a point of stating so when I speculate, and infer conslusions. I think the definition of "sophistry" means imputing the imprimatur of fact onto speculation. If I had done that, you could have attacked the substance instead of name-calling ;D)

Jesus save us from Buff. Stating speculating inferring conclusions, oh boy, with imputing imprimaturs. Very impressive substantive sophistry. Good one. Yes, I noticed you lacked substance.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 04:29 PM
Jesus save us from Buff. Stating speculating inferring conclusions, oh boy, with imputing imprimaturs. Very impressive substantive sophistry. Good one. Yes, I noticed you lacked substance.

I didn't ask you to "notice" anything. I challenged you to talk about substance specifically instead of just name-calling. But once again here, you've declined that challenge. I don't blame you for standing down, most of that post is just facts and questions.

I don't deny I come to speculative conslusions fairl frequently, some perhaps examples of sophistry. I think I even copped to that to you a few days ago about another post - one talking about Josh playing "stubborn tough guy" in that all-important Saturday meeting with Jay.

But that post doesn't qualify as sophist.

Inkana7
04-11-2009, 04:33 PM
SoCal is right that losing Cutler shortened the leash on MCDaniles, and will add greatly to his pressure to win. Great example SoCal, that home game loss to the Chugs (I remember it as Nalen's last-ever NFL game), to point out that our fans are no longer the "Most Diehard" like they were in the 70s.

But Bowlen's opinion is all that really matters, at least concerning Josh's employment ... and since Jay dissed Bowlen by ignoring his calls, I doubt Pat's gonna screw down the vise on Josh too soon.




THIS is an ultimate point: I believe Jay Cutler will be going to Pro Bowls after Josh is gone as Broncos HC.

So this is the new BroncoBuff point that we'll have shoved down our throats every post? And I thought the "Josh will be gone by 2012!" one would last longer.

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 04:38 PM
So this is the new BroncoBuff point that we'll have shoved down our throats every post? And I thought the "Josh will be gone by 2012!" one would last longer.

I never predicted Josh will be gone by 2012 ... which is what that paraphrasing connotes.

Please quote me accurately, I'll do the same for you: What I said - EVERY SINGLE TIME - was that the history and statistics of head coaching tenures say he will be gone during or before 2012.




But I do predict this: JAY CUTLER WILL GO TO PRO-BOWLS (plural) AFTER JOSH IS GONE AS BRONCOS HC.

El Minion
04-11-2009, 04:47 PM
AWESOME POINTS!

And that goes directly to my REAL beef ... that Josh's rank inexperience in front office matters is a big contributor to thse problems. I'm sure he's an exccellent offensive coach, might even become an excellent head coach. But he is a rank amateur at FO stuff - no doubt - and we're suffering because of it.

IIRC, Xanders worked under Dimitroff or at least not in the player evaluating department. Seems more of capoligist/administrator then a judge of talent. This gives me pause and concern for the upcoming draft, if Shanahan, a great coach, strategist and tactician, had problems evaluating talent for drafts what experience or credentials do McD and X bring to belie those concerns. Uhh

gyldenlove
04-11-2009, 05:07 PM
I think Broncos fans are smarter than that and realize that in this league you sometimes have to take a step backwards in order to take 3 steps forward.

I think Broncos fans are smarter than that and realize that in this league a step backwards is more often than not just a step backwards.

BroncoMan4ever
04-11-2009, 06:09 PM
"Rebuilding" doesn't guarantee success and it doesn't just take 1 year.

Look at Oakland who have been rebuilding for year, the 49ers, Detroit, Arizona.

Look at Kansas City, they have sucked for 2 years and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. I don't want us to be as bad as Kansas City.

If it guarantees an 11-5 year or better I would take a 4-12 year, but that just doesn't happen that often. Atlanta had a bad year in 2007 because they had an awful coach and a QB who went to jail. Miami had two awful years because they had an awful coach. Kansas City have so far had two awful years because of their GM. Cleveland has been mostly awful the last many years.

We were quite average as a team last year, why should we settle for being awful? Shanahan kept this team competitive despite not having a run game, the worst special teams in the league and one of the worst defenses.

Given that the probability of us having the same amount of injuries at RB this year as we did last year is very very minute and that there is almost no way we can be as bad on special teams and defense we should expect to win more games this year than we did last year. But because of the actions of our new head coach odds are that we will win fewer games even if our run game is improved and our defense doesn't suck as bad.

I am fully prepared to give Mcdaniels a grace period for this season, almost no matter how bad we are. But if we are not a winning team by 2010 the Mcdaniels experiment has failed and we should be entering the Bill Cowher sweepstakes if he is not taken.

Oakland hasn't been rebuilding, they are doing the Shanahan thing, overpaying for mediocre talent in FA, making bad draft decisions and Davis not allowing his coaches to build the team their own way. no coach has been able to come in and tear the team down and rebuild, all they can do is try to make the overpaid mediocre talent look good and pray they can hanf onto their job long enough to maybe bring the team back to respectability.

the Chiefs main problems have been poor personnel decisions, like giving LJ monster money, not addressing the QB situation, letting good veteran players leave(example:Weigman) and bad coaching. they also have not torn down the team and rebuilt, they just try to add new guys and hope they make the team better.


and your right rebuilding doesn't necessarily happen in one year. but your bringing up of the Dolphins is wrong because they did rebuild in 1 season. 23 new players on their openning 2008 roster that were not there at the start of the 1-15 2007 season. all they did was get good coaching that knew how to play to the teams strengths, and got players that fit the scheme that they wanted to run. similar to what we are doing, only questions that remains for us, how will we draft and do we have good coaching.

we can be pretty good this year and we can be terrible, but just based on the defensive coaching and roster purge, i am of the belief we are going to surprise the league and actually do pretty good, and be a team that is looked at as a team that will compete in upcoming seasons

baja
04-11-2009, 08:35 PM
We were quite average as a team last year, why should we settle for being awful? <b>Shanahan kept this team competitive despite not having a run game, the worst special teams in the league and one of the worst defenses.

This reasoning cracks me up, who do you think is responsible for fielding those lousy defenses and shiity special teams?

baja
04-11-2009, 08:42 PM
Is anybody else surprised at the results of the poll?




Yes, we will we may not win at first be we will play with great intensity. <b>131 65.83%</b>


No, we are going to struggle. <b> 68 34.17% </b>

BroncoBuff
04-11-2009, 11:25 PM
So this is the new BroncoBuff point that we'll have shoved down our throats every post? And I thought the "Josh will be gone by 2012!" one would last longer.

I'm actually gonna throw up a poll on that ....... ;D

footstepsfrom#27
04-11-2009, 11:30 PM
This reasoning cracks me up, who do you think is responsible for fielding those lousy defenses and shiity special teams?
Cutler? ;D

Popps
04-11-2009, 11:41 PM
Is anybody else surprised at the results of the poll?



>

A little, but I think most fans here are optimistic, despite the negative ones seeming to be the squeakiest wheels.

I think most people saw what was happening with Shanahan. He just wasn't producing results like he had early in his tenure. I honestly wish he would have retired so we could have avoided a messy situation. But, it wasn't that bad. Mike had nice things to say going out the door, and I know he meant them.

As I've said before, sometimes a franchise just needs a fresh start and a new philosophy. Even great coaches run their course with teams, sometimes. I think Shanahan's troubles on defense did him in, and he just wouldn't place the proper focus on that area. Some of that was probably ego. He's such a great game-day coach, he just thought he could punch his way out of any situation. But, for all the good his big ego did, the flip-side of that is sometimes not doing the things you should do. Shanahan loved to gamble on draft picks because he could often outsmart other teams. But, when that didn't work, and he was swinging and missing in free agency, problems started to compile.

You can feel the excitement when these players speak. It sounds real to me. It doesn't sound put-on. Marshall seemed almost giddy in his last interview.
Dumervil sounds as upbeat as can be. Remember, half of this team felt like "second class citizens." A lot of these guys are going to welcome a team-first philosophy.

I've also said that I think this Cutler mess will end up unifying this team. They'll rally behind the idea that they aren't just some slobs Jay Cutler was dragging around. These guys are pros, and this entire team will be playing with giant ****ing chips on their shoulders.

We've got a brutal schedule. I'm not expecting a huge season, win-wise. But, I DO expect a fiery team that doesn't quit in the second half of the season. I believe in this new staff and at very least, believe in giving them a fair chance to implement their system before tearing them down.

It's an exciting time.

baja
04-11-2009, 11:51 PM
Really nice post Popps I agree with everything you said especially this;

He's such a great game-day coach, he just thought he could punch his way out of any situation

and this;

You can feel the excitement when these players speak. It sounds real to me. It doesn't sound put-on. Marshall seemed almost giddy in his last interview.
Dumervil sounds as upbeat as can be. Remember, half of this team felt like "second class citizens." A lot of these guys are going to welcome a team-first philosophy.

TheChamp24
04-12-2009, 12:53 AM
A little, but I think most fans here are optimistic, despite the negative ones seeming to be the squeakiest wheels.

I think most people saw what was happening with Shanahan. He just wasn't producing results like he had early in his tenure. I honestly wish he would have retired so we could have avoided a messy situation. But, it wasn't that bad. Mike had nice things to say going out the door, and I know he meant them.

As I've said before, sometimes a franchise just needs a fresh start and a new philosophy. Even great coaches run their course with teams, sometimes. I think Shanahan's troubles on defense did him in, and he just wouldn't place the proper focus on that area. Some of that was probably ego. He's such a great game-day coach, he just thought he could punch his way out of any situation. But, for all the good his big ego did, the flip-side of that is sometimes not doing the things you should do. Shanahan loved to gamble on draft picks because he could often outsmart other teams. But, when that didn't work, and he was swinging and missing in free agency, problems started to compile.

You can feel the excitement when these players speak. It sounds real to me. It doesn't sound put-on. Marshall seemed almost giddy in his last interview.
Dumervil sounds as upbeat as can be. Remember, half of this team felt like "second class citizens." A lot of these guys are going to welcome a team-first philosophy.

I've also said that I think this Cutler mess will end up unifying this team. They'll rally behind the idea that they aren't just some slobs Jay Cutler was dragging around. These guys are pros, and this entire team will be playing with giant ****ing chips on their shoulders.

We've got a brutal schedule. I'm not expecting a huge season, win-wise. But, I DO expect a fiery team that doesn't quit in the second half of the season. I believe in this new staff and at very least, believe in giving them a fair chance to implement their system before tearing them down.

It's an exciting time.

I think you missed your calling as motivational speaker. Kudos, nice post.

I think the offense will be as good as it was last year, but I don't expect the defense to make the leap necessary to get us to that next level. Give it another year, and maybe. All I want to see is improvement at least from that side of the ball.
I want to see us count down total yardage given up by 35 yards a game, which would put us at around 23 ranked. Cut our rushing yards allowed by 20 a game, putting us at like 24th ranked. Most importantly, cut the points allowed by 4-5 points a game, moving us up to around 22. We'd still rank in the bottom of the league in defense, but its stepping stones. Improvement is necessary, and this is sort of the minimum improvement I want to see on defense. I can see the team starting out rather poorish as the team adjusts to the changes, but sort of start to get it all together by the end of the year. 2010 could be a very exciting year, depends how the changes we make do, who we draft, etc.
I know I shouldn't overlook this year, but to me, this is a rebuilding year and I'm just not putting up much hope in us doing anything this year.

FireFly
04-12-2009, 01:02 AM
I agree that change was needed. I said that the day shanny was fired and thought it before hand.

My biggest concern is our confidence. In our coach, in our players in everything. with the schedule we have, once we start to slump it might be VERY difficult for us to pull ourselves out of it. It becomes a mental thing.

I'd be really really enthusiastic about the new coach and the moves that have been made, if this season looked like we could go 8-8.

Popps
04-12-2009, 01:03 AM
I think you missed your calling as motivational speaker. Kudos, nice post..

Ha! Thanks.

I think bad business cards did my career in...

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=79506