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tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 10:28 AM
The Broncos really messed this Jay Cutler-Kyle Orton trade up. People keep saying we robbed the Bears, but I don't see it that way. We got an "OK QB" and late-teen, first-round pick, and the pick next year will more then likely be in the late 20s. If one of the picks ends up being a bust, then we totally lost out.
-- Joe Solomon, Denver

Joe - This trade will come back to bite the Broncos in the trailing end of Thunder, or whatever the current name of the horse that is ridden around after touchdowns. Which may not happen often next year. The horse probably is excited about the trade.

If I had been Denver, I would have demanded that in the trade, the Bears had to keep Orton. People think Cutler is a bit weird. Wait until they find out about Orton and his father. All I can say is that when something happens with my daughter's career, I don't get on the Internet with everyone and talk about it.

My friend Mike Klis claims that Orton is about as good as Matt Cassel. Well, lick my wounds, eat my dust. The Broncos better get something big from this year's first-round pick and third-round pick because, like you, I feel that Chicago's first-round pick next year will be late in that round. The Bears will win their division and be a factor in the NFC playoffs. The Broncos might win six games.

The Broncos got a lot from the Bears (if you consider Orton much), but I'd still rather have Cutler. He was a fool throughout the process, but the other
side was more foolish. I still maintain that Kid McKid had bigger fish to fry, and shouldn't have sautťed his quarterback. He told me the other day that when teams called, he had to listen.

"I wasn't going to hang up."

When telemarketers call my mother, I tell her to hang up. She doesn't have to listen. Neither did he.

its his god damn job woody. someone calls and says we can give you a QB who runs your system very well (as opposed to the brett favre school of QB: duck and throw into triple coverage) as well as a first and some other **** to make the TEAM better, hes supposed to go all jay cutler, slam the phone down plug his ears and go lalalalala?

is everyone this stupid?

bronco militia
04-09-2009, 10:34 AM
LOL....I don't have a problem with what he said.

and McDonk lied to the 'player'.....cutler handled it poorly

every bronco fans needs to erase the last 15 years when thinking about next season. Everything will be different...EVERYTHING

Taco John
04-09-2009, 10:34 AM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.

Popps
04-09-2009, 10:35 AM
When telemarketers call my mother, I tell her to hang up. She doesn't have to listen. Neither did he.

Well, who can argue with that kind of rock-solid logic?

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 10:36 AM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore.

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.

the one who refused to talk to the coach or owner of the team is the one to blame. can you defend him not talking to the coach or owner, absolutely refusing to talk, requesting a trade then saying he didnt want to get traded? really?

WolfpackGuy
04-09-2009, 10:36 AM
Going 4-12 will definitely be different.

OABB
04-09-2009, 10:38 AM
We traded Cutler!?!

Popps
04-09-2009, 10:40 AM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.
.

Jay Cutler screwed it up by not doing what he signed a piece of paper to do.

Yes, his tender ass could have been gently patted more effectively by the entire organization, but in the end... his childish behavior illuminated things to such an extent that this decision had to be made.

As for us being set back "years," you have no proof of that. If we win eight games, you'll just insist that we would have won 12 with Cutler. No matter how this plays out, those who refused to see the reality of the Shanahan firing will be using this Cutler trade to try to justify their skewed position for years to come.

Honestly... if we win a Superbowl next year, the usual suspects will be around here saying that we "could have won it better" if Cutler was still here.

You stay pessimistic and sad, bro. Many of us are excited about the future of this team, and have a bit better understanding of how proper championship teams are built.

broncofan7
04-09-2009, 10:42 AM
LOL....I don't have a problem with what he said.

and McDonk lied to the 'player'.....cutler handled it poorly

every bronco fans needs to erase the last 15 years when thinking about next season. Everything will be different...EVERYTHING

So true--I was on the fire Shanny bandwagon--but ONLY to get a real GM in here and to get a defensive minded coach who would KEEP the offensive system intact. Never in my WILDEST imagination did I think that Bowlen would not only hire an offensive HC, but then trade our FRANCHISE QB for what amount to some stock options. Next year will Be VERY different and I have a feeling that we will be subjected to only 2 seasons of the McD regime. Bold prediction sure not to come true: Kubes will be fired this season by the Texans and he will be Denver's HC at the start of the 2011 season (or later if there is a lockout)

Gort
04-09-2009, 10:43 AM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.

mark it down... the 2009 broncos will win more games than the Cutler-led 2008 broncos.

chanesaw
04-09-2009, 10:43 AM
Woody is spot-on.

Taco John
04-09-2009, 10:43 AM
the one who refused to talk to the coach or owner of the team is the one to blame. can you defend him not talking to the coach or owner, absolutely refusing to talk, requesting a trade then saying he didnt want to get traded? really?

Yes, I can. I don't think he really wanted to get traded. I think that he thought that the Broncos would want to smooth things over with a new contract. They called his bluff - he's gone. Good for them for being tough, except that they cut off their noses to spite the face of the organization in the process.

And I can absolutely defend him for not talking to the coach or the owner. At that point, he'd been lied to and misled by both of them. What are they going to say? Sorry? Ha! Money talks, BS walks.

37% blame on Bowlen.
37% blame on McDaniels.
25% blame on Jay.

I put a lot of stock in people being truthful and up front. I can't blame Jay too much for reacting when he felt like he was being lied to. I think he probably could and should have picked up the phone when the calls were coming in, but I can understand why he'd think "whatever, you're FOS - talk to my agent if you want to say something."

I wish the Broncos would have handled this in a manner that wouldn't have given Jay any room to believe that they were FOS. But that's water under the bridge.

broncofan7
04-09-2009, 10:44 AM
Jay Cutler screwed it up by not doing what he signed a piece of paper to do.

Yes, his tender ass could have been gently patted more effectively by the entire organization, but in the end... his childish behavior illuminated things to such an extent that this decision had to be made.

As for us being set back "years," you have no proof of that. If we win eight games, you'll just insist that we would have won 12 with Cutler. No matter how this plays out, those who refused to see the reality of the Shanahan firing will be using this Cutler trade to try to justify their skewed position for years to come.

Honestly... if we win a Superbowl next year, the usual suspects will be around here saying that we "could have won it better" if Cutler was still here.

You stay pessimistic and sad, bro. Many of us are excited?? about the future of this team, and have a bit better understanding of how proper championship teams are built.

more like anxiously optimistic.

Gort
04-09-2009, 10:44 AM
Jay Cutler screwed it up by not doing what he signed a piece of paper to do.

Yes, his tender ass could have been gently patted more effectively by the entire organization, but in the end... his childish behavior illuminated things to such an extent that this decision had to be made.

As for us being set back "years," you have no proof of that. If we win eight games, you'll just insist that we would have won 12 with Cutler. No matter how this plays out, those who refused to see the reality of the Shanahan firing will be using this Cutler trade to try to justify their skewed position for years to come.

Honestly... if we win a Superbowl next year, the usual suspects will be around here saying that we "could have won it better" if Cutler was still here.

You stay pessimistic and sad, bro. Many of us are excited about the future of this team, and have a bit better understanding of how proper championship teams are built.

yep. the cutler homers can't let it go. it's got to be some grand conspiracy by McD to get rid of cutler from day 1. hell, maybe it was McD on the grassy knoll too!

oubronco
04-09-2009, 10:47 AM
the one who refused to talk to the coach or owner of the team is the one to blame. can you defend him not talking to the coach or owner, absolutely refusing to talk, requesting a trade then saying he didnt want to get traded? really?

thats all after the fact McD started this **** why can't you Mcnuggets get this

SonOfLe-loLang
04-09-2009, 10:47 AM
'This loss will set the franchise back 10 years" - Shannon Sharpe after the broncos 30-27 loss to Jacksonville, Jan '96 (im paraphrasing)

baja
04-09-2009, 10:49 AM
If Bowlen thought Cutler was on his way to being an Elway like player Jay would still be here and that is the end of the story.

Both Bowlen & McDaniels see cracks in the armor of Cutler and got value before everyone figures it out.

Doggcow
04-09-2009, 10:50 AM
Jay Cutler screwed it up by not doing what he signed a piece of paper to do.

Yes, his tender ass could have been gently patted more effectively by the entire organization, but in the end... his childish behavior illuminated things to such an extent that this decision had to be made.

As for us being set back "years," you have no proof of that. If we win eight games, you'll just insist that we would have won 12 with Cutler. No matter how this plays out, those who refused to see the reality of the Shanahan firing will be using this Cutler trade to try to justify their skewed position for years to come.

Honestly... if we win a Superbowl next year, the usual suspects will be around here saying that we "could have won it better" if Cutler was still here.

You stay pessimistic and sad, bro. Many of us are excited about the future of this team, and have a bit better understanding of how proper championship teams are built.

LOL Perfect. This is exactly what Ive been saying. We will be a better team this year I bet, and I am EXTREMELY excited to see "the other half" of the game we have missed out on the last decade *Harsh whispers* defense? YES DEFENSE!

Everyone will say that Cutler would be a superstar now when our defense is solid, but the fact is he ****s up, ALOT. Just look at the game killing INT vs KC where he has Sheffler WIDE OPEN FOR 6, Orton (or a cerebral QB) wouldn't have tried to force that thinking "NURRRR IM AMAZING NURR" and would have checked down to Sheff, and we win, make the playoffs, booyah.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-09-2009, 10:50 AM
Yes, I can. I don't think he really wanted to get traded. I think that he thought that the Broncos would want to smooth things over with a new contract. They called his bluff - he's gone. Good for them for being tough, except that they cut off their noses to spite the face of the organization in the process.

And I can absolutely defend him for not talking to the coach or the owner. At that point, he'd been lied to and misled by both of them. What are they going to say? Sorry? Ha! Money talks, BS walks.

37% blame on Bowlen.
37% blame on McDaniels.
25% blame on Jay.

I put a lot of stock in people being truthful and up front. I can't blame Jay too much for reacting when he felt like he was being lied to. I think he probably could and should have picked up the phone when the calls were coming in, but I can understand why he'd think "whatever, you're FOS - talk to my agent if you want to say something."

I wish the Broncos would have handled this in a manner that wouldn't have given Jay any room to believe that they were FOS. But that's water under the bridge.

I put 98 percent of the blame on Cutler.

After the initial trade discussion (which is common place in the NFL):

1) Cutler lost ZERO money
2) Cutler lost ZERO playing time
3) Cutler is still the focal point in the offense.
4) The only thing hurt was his pride. Boo ****ing hoo

Management tried numerous times to contact him to work it out. Cutler wouldn't do so without his agent. Cutler was contacted by the man who signs his paychecks, but refused to answer him. Coaches/GMs/Owners are authoritative figures. They are the ones calling the shots. Jay is the one getting paid millions to throw an oblong pigskin. He should have gotten over it quick. I still say this was a contract ploy that went horribly awry.

Sure, i suppose McD could have fellated him...but that said, 98 percent Cutler's fault.

Taco John
04-09-2009, 10:51 AM
yep. the cutler homers can't let it go. it's got to be some grand conspiracy by McD to get rid of cutler from day 1. hell, maybe it was McD on the grassy knoll too!

A conspiracy requires two people. A plan only requires one. Whether it was a plan or not is immaterial. What happened happened. McDaniels still flip flopped when the rumors went public. The Broncos still stopped taking the Cutler camp's calls when they were trying to get answers from them - and of course, like hypocrites, complained when Cutler treated them the same way by refusing to take their calls after the fact.

You're right - it is hard to let go. I feel like I've watched this team trade superbowl contention in the next two years for the hope of being in contention within five years.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 10:51 AM
thats all after the fact McD started this **** why can't you Mcnuggets get this

he started it by listening to trade offers that never amounted to anything. literally, thats what he did. OFFERS. he did not go out looking for trades, other teams thought they could pry away cutler and get mcdaniels cassel to make their teams better, i would hope someone would try to make that trade. he listened, never even talked to pat about it so the trades really didnt get serious at any point, cassel traded to chiefs and then cutler found out and cried his way back to TN

baja
04-09-2009, 10:55 AM
LOL Perfect. This is exactly what Ive been saying. We will be a better team this year I bet, and I am EXTREMELY excited to see "the other half" of the game we have missed out on the last decade *Harsh whispers* defense? YES DEFENSE!

Everyone will say that Cutler would be a superstar now when our defense is solid, but the fact is he ****s up, ALOT. Just look at the game killing INT vs KC where he has Sheffler WIDE OPEN FOR 6, Orton (or a cerebral QB) wouldn't have tried to force that thinking "NURRRR IM AMAZING NURR" and would have checked down to Sheff, and we win, make the playoffs, booyah.

And then there is that 'I too good to play safe" attitude that seems to resist coaching out of.

vancejohnson82
04-09-2009, 10:55 AM
A conspiracy requires two people. A plan only requires one. Whether it was a plan or not is immaterial. What happened happened. McDaniels still flip flopped when the rumors went public. The Broncos still stopped taking the Cutler camp's calls when they were trying to get answers from them - and of course, like hypocrites, complained when Cutler treated them the same way by refusing to take their calls after the fact.

You're right - it is hard to let go. I feel like I've watched this team trade superbowl contention in the next two years for the hope of being in contention within five years.

haha....we were going to be in Super Bowl contention the next two years???? That's laughable....seriously, we were going to be scraping for a wildcard berth as the defense rebuilt and Cutler was going to talk his way out of here before we ever got the chance to put together an entire TEAM..

The organization tried to make amends and Cutler told them to **** off....in essence telling the fans the same thing....so he has no sort of sympathy from me

OABB
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm going to broncomania...

baja
04-09-2009, 11:00 AM
A conspiracy requires two people. A plan only requires one. Whether it was a plan or not is immaterial. What happened happened. McDaniels still flip flopped when the rumors went public. The Broncos still stopped taking the Cutler camp's calls when they were trying to get answers from them - and of course, like hypocrites, complained when Cutler treated them the same way by refusing to take their calls after the fact.

You're right - it is hard to let go. I feel like I've watched this team trade superbowl contention in the next two years for the hope of being in contention within five years.

I don't get this flip flop talk, McDaniels has consistently stated he listened to offers and turned them down without even deeming there was enough interest to show them to Pat for his consideration.

OABB
04-09-2009, 11:02 AM
23988

Taco John
04-09-2009, 11:04 AM
I don't get this flip flop talk, McDaniels has consistently stated he listened to offers and turned them down without even deeming there was enough interest to show them to Pat for his consideration.


Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

OABB
04-09-2009, 11:10 AM
23991

DHallblows
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
mark it down... the 2009 broncos will win more games than the Cutler-led 2008 broncos.

You word it as if the Orton-led 2009 broncos will win more games. If we win more games it'll have NOTHING to do with the qb. It'll be from Defense an Offensive players stepping up for Orton.

Gort
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
A conspiracy requires two people. A plan only requires one. Whether it was a plan or not is immaterial. What happened happened. McDaniels still flip flopped when the rumors went public. The Broncos still stopped taking the Cutler camp's calls when they were trying to get answers from them - and of course, like hypocrites, complained when Cutler treated them the same way by refusing to take their calls after the fact.

You're right - it is hard to let go. I feel like I've watched this team trade superbowl contention in the next two years for the hope of being in contention within five years.

look at the Ravens, Titans, and Cardinals improvements last year from 2007. it doesn't take 5 years to build a contender in the NFL.

Gort
04-09-2009, 11:21 AM
You word it as if the Orton-led 2009 broncos will win more games. If we win more games it'll have NOTHING to do with the qb. It'll be from Defense an Offensive players stepping up for Orton.

nothing to do with Orton. i think the Broncos can go 9-7. 4 games against KC/OAK. they get Dallas and NE at home. both winnable games. Dallas is overrated. and McD has already got NE circled on the schedule. CLE, CIN, WAS, and BAL are also on the schedule. they could take 3 of those 4. the only games they probably don't have a chance at are SD away, IND away, PITT home, NYG home, and PHI away.

of course this is all speculation... we don't even know the roster for the team yet, but we are far from being a 4-12 team IMO.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:22 AM
I think Cutler is slightly more at fault than McDaniels, but if you factor Pat in, Pat does gets the largest part of the blame from me. Cutler was the star, McDaniels was the new guy. Pat failed to put his foot down, and let the kid run free with too much power. Josh was far too inexperienced to be trusted with these high-stakes issues ... when it started blowing up, Pat should've nipped it in the bud.

Woody is SO correct, especially about how very little we got in return. Two first-rounders sounds great, but let's look at the facts and be realistic ....

Roll the dice and let fate choose two:

Deltha O'Neal
Al Wilson
Marcus Nash
Willie Middlebrooks
George Foster
Ashley Lelie
D.J. Williams
Jarvis Moss
Ryan Clady


See? That's why Woody is right ... it's not such a pretty picture when you look at our last 10 1st round picks.

Even the very BEST two, Wilson and Clady, are barely worth Cutler - if at all.

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 11:23 AM
When telemarketers call my mother, I tell her to hang up. She doesn't have to listen. Neither did he.

Well, who can argue with that kind of rock-solid logic?

That kind of candle power is why Woody never graduated to anything beyond 'Blow Hard BS Shouter' on ESPN

Gort
04-09-2009, 11:23 AM
he started it by listening to trade offers that never amounted to anything. literally, thats what he did. OFFERS. he did not go out looking for trades, other teams thought they could pry away cutler and get mcdaniels cassel to make their teams better, i would hope someone would try to make that trade. he listened, never even talked to pat about it so the trades really didnt get serious at any point, cassel traded to chiefs and then cutler found out and cried his way back to TN

good try, but you cannot argue logically against people thinking emotionally.

vancejohnson82
04-09-2009, 11:25 AM
I think Cutler is slightly more at fault than McDaniels, but if you factor Pat in, Pat does gets the largest part of the blame from me. Cutler was the star, McDaniels was the new guy. Pat failed to put his foot down, and let the kid run free with too much power. Josh was far too inexperienced to be trusted with these high-stakes issues ... when it started blowing up, Pat should've nipped it in the bud.

Woody is SO correct, especially about how very little we got in return. Two first-rounders sounds great, but let's look at the facts and be realistic ....

Roll the dice and let fate choose two:

Deltha O'Neal
Al Wilson
Marcus Nash
Willie Middlebrooks
George Foster
Ashley Lelie
D.J. Williams
Jarvis Moss
Ryan Clady


See? That's why Woody is right ... it's not such a pretty picture when you look at our last 10 1st round picks.

Even the very BEST two, Wilson and Clady, are barely worth Cutler - if at all.

now thats a statement I don't agree with....I'll take a ferocious MLB and a stone wall of a LT over a moody, risky QB with health issues any day

Gort
04-09-2009, 11:26 AM
Sure, i suppose McD could have fellated him...but that said, 98 percent Cutler's fault.

maybe, just maybe this could have all been avoided with some surprise buttsecks on day 1. ;)

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
I think Cutler is slightly more at fault than McDaniels, but if you factor Pat in, Pat does gets the largest part of the blame from me. Cutler was the star, McDaniels was the new guy. Pat failed to put his foot down, and let the kid run free with too much power. Josh was far too inexperienced to be trusted with these high-stakes issues ... when it started blowing up, Pat should've nipped it in the bud.

Woody is SO correct, especially about how very little we got in return. Two first-rounders sounds great, but let's look at the facts and be realistic ....

Roll the dice and let fate choose two:

Deltha O'Neal
Al Wilson
Marcus Nash
Willie Middlebrooks
George Foster
Ashley Lelie
D.J. Williams
Jarvis Moss
Ryan Clady


See? That's why Woody is right ... it's not such a pretty picture when you look at our last 10 1st round picks.

Even the very BEST two, Wilson and Clady, are barely worth Cutler - if at all.

That was with Shanahan drafting. You can't say that because Shanny had a spotty draft record that McDaniels will have the same. In fact, McDaniels worked some in the Pats personnel department and is said to be very astute at player evaluation. It's true that in order to make the trade a win, we have to hit on the picks. But Shanny's draft history--good or bad--is irrelevant to judging how successfully McDaniels will draft.

colonelbeef
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
paige is right, this trade make the broncos worse in the long run.

DHallblows
04-09-2009, 11:29 AM
When telemarketers call my mother, I tell her to hang up. She doesn't have to listen. Neither did he.

Well, who can argue with that kind of rock-solid logic?

Someone who already has satellite when the telemarketer calls offering basic cable and $1000

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

"Tried to acquire" is the problematic phrase here. That would imply that McDaniels made a decision to get Cassel. That just doesn't add up with the facts. If that was McDaniels plan all along, why did he wait to get involved so late in the process? Why did they put discussion of the deal on the back-burner while completing six FA deals? If he was really "trying to get" Cassel, that would have been priority number one. It doesn't add up. McDaniels has said all along that they listened to offers and had one they were planning to discuss further, but then the KC trade went down. That is not "trying to get" a guy. I don't think he admitted to anything of the kind, I think he simply said what he's said all along..."Yeah, Jay, there was a proposal that will felt we had to at least talk about," and then Jay with his hot-headed, preconceived notions interpreted that as "yeah, we tried to get Cassel and I want my own guy." Sorry, doesn't add up, especially when you throw in the fact that Belichek said that KC was the only team to make an offer and that no one else was interested.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
now thats a statement I don't agree with....I'll take a ferocious MLB and a stone wall of a LT over a moody, risky QB with health issues any day

Okay, point taken. I hope we get that, but the odds are against us.

vancejohnson82
04-09-2009, 11:35 AM
Okay, point taken. I hope we get that, but the odds are against us.

true, its no guarantee...and there's going to be a lot of finger crossing...

but I just can't see how acquiring draft picks makes us WORSE in the long run as some people have said...i've never heard that about draft picks

Broncomutt
04-09-2009, 11:38 AM
I for one am glad this happened when it did and not around week 11 of the 2009 season. Obviously McDaniels and Bowlen would not be listening to trade offers in the middle of the season, but something tells me there would have been some type of power struggle between Cutler and McDaniels should the team have struggled, which would have been, and still is, a likely possibility.

The way I see it, we removed a cancer before it had a chance to metastasize. Thanks to Bus for making the diagnosis possible.:thumbsup:

DrFate
04-09-2009, 11:38 AM
"Tried to acquire" is the problematic phrase here.

Word games. Every outlet now says, with little room to quibble, that McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler with Cassel. There are some who will continue to slurp the Kool-Aid, and that's your right, I suppose. Common sense says he wanted to move Cutler. Only by analyzing every word from the Front Office and trying to twist their meaning can you come to any different conclusion. Should Cutler have reacted differently? Opinion vary.

But only the 'true believer 'still believes that McDaniels didn't get exactly what he wanted (for whatever the reason was). The ever shifing explanations, the 'I don't remember saying that?' episodes from Bowlen and Co. - it is all easy to see through. As soon as Bowlen said 'Goodman is the GM, McDaniels is the coach' - only to fire Goodman shortly thereafter - it was pretty easy to see what was going on. The McDaniels regime will be short - and like Nero, he'll see the franchise burn before he's done.

DHallblows
04-09-2009, 11:39 AM
true, its no guarantee...and there's going to be a lot of finger crossing...

but I just can't see how acquiring draft picks makes us WORSE in the long run as some people have said...i've never heard that about draft picks

It just makes us unstable and unknown for a while. You don't know how they'll turn out for a few years. It causes some to panic about the stability of the team.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:40 AM
Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

It was painfully obvious to me and Bus [Cook, his agent]<b> it's not something they want to fix."

The bolded part is what both sides are claiming, I guess it comes down to who you want to believe Bus & Jay or Pat Bowlen & McDaniels.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
Okay, point taken. I hope we get that, but the odds are against us.

One thing to keep in mind is that this notion that the draft is a complete crapshoot is false. There are clearly teams with a structure in place that leads to consistently productive drafts (Baltimore, for instance). But those successful teams get mixed in with the incompetent ones (Cinncinatti, for instance), so the overall 1st round success rate is around 50%. But the teams with a competent process of evaluation perform better than that rate. Obviously, we've never seen a Josh McDaniels draft, but he comes from an organization with an overall successful track record and is himself said to be astute at player evaluation, so hopefully that carries over. We'll see.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:46 AM
"Tried to acquire" is the problematic phrase here. That would imply that McDaniels made a decision to get Cassel. That just doesn't add up with the facts.

No Inferno, that's the substantive reporting I've been pointing out over and over here lately ... 99% of reports./commentators/reporters state as accepted fact that McD actively participated in trade talks. That MEANS something.

I do agree with you that Josh never made a decision to "go after" Cassel, and I don't think Josh himself initiated the talks, but I agree with the consensus that Josh was an active participant. It got so far in fact, that two reports say the Vikings "nixed" a deal for Jay.


The point is, Josh did actively negotiate a trade for Cassel, no doubt now. Which is fine, he has every right. The question left is, did he lie/mislead Jay about it? I think he did ... remember Josh's first comments were "we just listened, we would never trade Jay." We now know pretty clearly that was false ... Josh did negotiate. (Belichick is the only guy who says otherwise, but his credibility is zero.)

I think Josh is so inexperienced - he never negotiated a trade before, never dealt with an agent before - he did not realize how word of the negotiations would spread, and when Jay confronted him with the info, Josh smartly put up a wall and stood firm. He never cracked, and eventually won.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 11:47 AM
Word games. Every outlet now says, with little room to quibble, that McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler with Cassel. There are some who will continue to slurp the Kool-Aid, and that's your right, I suppose. Common sense says he wanted to move Cutler. Only by analyzing every word from the Front Office and trying to twist their meaning can you come to any different conclusion. Should Cutler have reacted differently? Opinion vary.

But only the 'true believer 'still believes that McDaniels didn't get exactly what he wanted (for whatever the reason was). The ever shifing explanations, the 'I don't remember saying that?' episodes from Bowlen and Co. - it is all easy to see through. As soon as Bowlen said 'Goodman is the GM, McDaniels is the coach' - only to fire Goodman shortly thereafter - it was pretty easy to see what was going on. The McDaniels regime will be short - and like Nero, he'll see the franchise burn before he's done.

"Every outlet" is repeating what Chris Mortenson initially reported as if it was gospel. Most of these "outlets" are not claiming their own sources, they are just running with the initial ESPN report. So, no, that does not wash. You still have to look at what the common sense and the available evidence. Common sense says that if McDaniels really had a hard-on for Cassel, he would have gotten involved in the process far earlier than he did. It also suggests he could have easily trumped the 2nd rounder the Pats eventually got for Cassel AND Vrabel. Furthermore, the only primary player to speak out on this situation other than Cutler and the Broncos is Belichek, and his version of events corroborates McDaniels. He flat out says that he received little interest and no offers other than from KC. How does any of that add up to McDaniels making a hard push for Cassel. The correct answer is that it does not add up.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
No Inferno, that's the substantive reporting I've been pointing out over and over ... 99% of reports./commentators/reporters state as accepted fact that McD actively participated in trade talks.

I think you would admit that in many situations there is a tendency to repeat the first thing reported, regardless of evidence that may contradict that initial report. Mortenson and one or two other people claimed that their "sources" said that Denver tried to make a deal. Those other outlets are not citing their own sources, they are merely repeating those initial reports as gospel even thought he story no longer adds up. Belichek flat out says that KC made the only offer and that no one else was interested in "the player." He heard speculation of a possible 3 team scenario, but it nothing firm was ever presented to him. That simply does not add up with McDaniels actively trying to make the trade happen. It just does not add up.

Popps
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

Poor Jay. What a tortured soul. How is he ever going to get over it?

I mean, all great leaders have problems with a little adversity, huh? Most great team-leaders just quit when things get tough.

Hey, by the way... does anyone have a link to McDaniels stating in no uncertain terms that he "never considered a trade for Cassel?"

Smiling Assassin27
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Would you rather have a perennial (because that's what Shanny's teams had turned into) 9-7, 8-8, or even 7-9 team, or would you rather make structural changes, alter the team's identity, and build for perennial contention in 5 years? I take the latter. Let the guy make his changes, set the course, and see where it goes. Sometimes, going back 2 steps is the first peg of a plan to take a team to the top. How can you 'set back' a team that's missed the playoffs with huge colossal choke jobs the last two years? It's like decapitating a person who's already dead.

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
If Bowlen thought Cutler was on his way to being an Elway like player Jay would still be here and that is the end of the story.

Both Bowlen & McDaniels see cracks in the armor of Cutler and got value before everyone figures it out.

Certainly by the end of the affair that was obvious to all of them, if not sooner, and Cutler sure didn't make any attempt to hide those cracks!

It amazes me how the Cutler devotees are now starting to rationalize their way back to reality, but still seem to need to make Bowlen the anti-christ and McD this power mad Dr. Frankenstein, when the guy simply entertained the possiblity of improving the team with Cassel and a boat load of draft picks, knowing full well that Cassel could excel in this system!

By ALL credible reports the possiblity of the trade never even got juicy enough to hit Pats desk and so where, pray tell, are all these signs of Megalomania drooling from Dove Valley???

McD's only 'mistake', and I wouldn't even call it that, was in not calling Cutler BEFORE the trade ideas were presented to him, which would have been hard to do without a functioning Ouije board, and suck him off a few times to soothe Jay's wittle feeling and make sure they wouldn't get hurt!

A few of you guys still seem to think McD spoke too harshly to Cutler when you have no earthly idea what he said or how he said it. Both Xanders and McD were apparently flabbergasted when, after the face to face meeting, Cutler asked for a bit of time to speak to his agent and then the next thing they heard was Cook demanding a trade. Yet they were both sure the meeting went well and were fully expecting Cutler to come in on that Monday to start work outs!

There is no evidence at all that Cutler ever made a serious good faith effort to work this out, and there is a ton of evidence that McD and Bowlen did just that, trying a a bunch of times and in different ways to communicate to Jay they wanted him back in the fold.

Cutler has been the shady one since day one, and the only one that we know for a fact has been talking out of two sides of his mouth! "I want a trade" "No, that's not what I wanted" "No one tried to call me ...etc" and playing hard to get while McD and Bowlen tried to coax him in from all across the country.

The problem was and is 100% on Jay.

Funny, too, to hear Brainless Woody talk about a 15 year set back to the Broncos ... why not just say its a "5,675 year debacle and a pox on all of our houses" Woody"?? Typical ignorant, loose cannon, Blow Hard B*** S***!

Popps
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
Anyway, let's talk more about Cutler's feelings.

Football is all about feelings.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that this notion that the draft is a complete crapshoot is false. There are clearly teams with a structure in place that leads to consistently productive drafts (Baltimore, for instance). But those successful teams get mixed in with the incompetent ones (Cinncinatti, for instance), so the overall 1st round success rate is around 50%. But the teams with a competent process of evaluation perform better than that rate. Obviously, we've never seen a Josh McDaniels draft, but he comes from an organization with an overall successful track record and is himself said to be astute at player evaluation, so hopefully that carries over. We'll see.

That and bad drafting team lose so they continually draft high skewing the odds further at the top.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 11:54 AM
"Every outlet" is repeating what Chris Mortenson initially reported as if it was gospel. Most of these "outlets" are not claiming their own sources, they are just running with the initial ESPN report. So, no, that does not wash. You still have to look at what the common sense and the available evidence. Common sense says that if McDaniels really had a hard-on for Cassel, he would have gotten involved in the process far earlier than he did. It also suggests he could have easily trumped the 2nd rounder the Pats eventually got for Cassel AND Vrabel. Furthermore, the only primary player to speak out on this situation other than Cutler and the Broncos is Belichek, and his version of events corroborates McDaniels. He flat out says that he received little interest and no offers other than from KC. How does any of that add up to McDaniels making a hard push for Cassel. The correct answer is that it does not add up.

Common sense also says that if McDaniels has said 'no thanks, I like Cutler as my guy', Cutler would have been PLEASED with that show of support, not PISSED. And the McDaniels supports convienently ignore the 'radio silence' from Dove Valley when the news broke, the claims that Cutler's calls were not returned, etc.

What does 'we were late to the dance' mean to you?

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 11:57 AM
but I just can't see how acquiring draft picks makes us WORSE in the long run as some people have said...i've never heard that about draft picks

Maybe not WORSE, but the reality is there is a VERY high bust rate for draft picks, even first rounders.

In the glowing patina of early April, every upcoming first-rounder is surely an All-Pro waiting to happen ... but statistics tell us otherwise. The recurrent Ashley Lelie/Ed Reed gnashing of teeth around here is a great example of before and after 1st round thinking. I'll bet after that draft, very few guys here would have thrown out the fast, deep-threat, seemingly perfect-complement-to-Rod Hawaii wideout .... for a helmet-first thug safety from the U.


BTW, this issue is an ongoing debate between SoCal and I ... he loves draft picks, draft picks, draft picks. While I tend to value guys who have proven they can and have adapted to the NFL (which is one tough adaptation).

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:00 PM
McD this power mad Dr. Frankenstein,

Why does the pro-McDaniels faction ignore the firing of the Goodmans?

Even McDaniels said: "Hopefully there's not many of those, but Jim would make the call if there's an issue in terms of personnel" (article dated 1/13)

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_11439117

Shortly thereafter...

"When owner Pat Bowlen fired coach Mike Shanahan on Dec. 30, he decided not to give his new coach as much power and said he would search for a general manager after finding his new coach.

Upon hiring Josh McDaniels as Shanahan's replacement, Bowlen said his GM was already in house -- presumably Jim Goodman. But Bowlen changed his mind and decided Xanders was the man best suited to lead the Broncos back to the postseason after three straight seasons out of the playoffs and just one playoff victory in the decade since Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway's retirement."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80eb6f81&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Common sense also says that if McDaniels has said 'no thanks, I like Cutler as my guy', Cutler would have been PLEASED with that show of support, not PISSED. And the McDaniels supports convienently ignore the 'radio silence' from Dove Valley when the news broke, the claims that Cutler's calls were not returned, etc.

What does 'we were late to the dance' mean to you?

We've been over the late to the dance thing. Put in context with the article from which it originated, it CLEARLY means that they were too late to be a player even if they wanted to be--which they had not decided one way or another yet. McDaniels in the same article says that they got a proposal that they thought was worth discussing, but no decision was made and before they could give it further consideration the KC deal went down. The KC deal goes down before they can further evaluate the proposal--hence "late to the dance." This is all corroborated by Belichek's statement that he never received another offer beside KCs. Even goes so far as to say no one else was interested in "the player." That doesn't add up with the notion that McDaniels was feverishly trying to bring in Cassel.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

Yup .... Jay had a legit beef. Problem is, he overplayed it and mishandled the whole thing with such galactican stupidly, while Josh just kept quiet and stood firm, even after his initial denials turned out to be false.

They played chicken: Jay crapped his diaper, Josh quietly stood his ground. Josh won.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:05 PM
Why do the pro-McDaniels faction ignore the firing of the Goodmans?

Even McDaniels said: "Hopefully there's not many of those, but Jim would make the call if there's an issue in terms of personnel" (article dated 1/13)

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_11439117

Shortly thereafter...

"When owner Pat Bowlen fired coach Mike Shanahan on Dec. 30, he decided not to give his new coach as much power and said he would search for a general manager after finding his new coach.

Upon hiring Josh McDaniels as Shanahan's replacement, Bowlen said his GM was already in house -- presumably Jim Goodman. But Bowlen changed his mind and decided Xanders was the man best suited to lead the Broncos back to the postseason after three straight seasons out of the playoffs and just one playoff victory in the decade since Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway's retirement."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80eb6f81&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

How does that implicate McDaniels in anything? Bowlen's position is that younger Goodman was perceived as somewhat of an in-house renegade amongst the rest of the personnel department, and that he was at odds with Xanders. So, Bowlen felt it was in the best interest of the organization to get rid of him. And, of course, there was no way to keep the older Goodman on board after firing his son. There has been no indication that McDaniels had any involvement in that. Hell, I have not even read any speculation of that anywhere.

outdoor_miner
04-09-2009, 12:05 PM
Question for the "Cutler Supporters"... What do you all think of Jay's interviews the day he became a Bear? The NFL Network interview in particular really sealed the deal for me in how much his side has been lying & spinning the truth throughout the whole ordeal. His interview reminded me of Mark McGwire in front of Congress in the baseball steroid hearings.... "I just want to look ahead... "I'm sure there are some things both sides would have done better", etc.

This from a guy that has shown time and again that he will say whatever is on his mind, and does not have the desire or ability to "filter" his comments to be politically correct (ie Phillip Rivers, calling out Brandon Marshall, etc).

Meanwhile, McDaniels and the Broncos have gotten more and more specific with their details of how Cutler refused to communicate, how the Broncos contacted him on the day of the proposed Cassel deal, etc.

To me, this shows that the Cutler side is almost certainly lying and the McDaniels side is telling the truth.

I'm honestly curious what you all think of the interview and why Cutler would suddenly "clam up" about the situation, especially when his integrity is essentially being dragged through the mud. I mean - they're basically calling him a liar! And he picks this situation to "let it go" and be the bigger man? It doesn't really add up to me...

Anaximines
04-09-2009, 12:06 PM
all will be clear in a few years, and it will all depend on how our 09 picks pan out.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:06 PM
We've been over the late to the dance thing. Put in context with the article from which it originated, it CLEARLY means...

It doesn't CLEARLY mean anything. People all over the media (and this board) have mixed thoughts on what it really means.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:07 PM
Maybe not WORSE, but the reality is there is a VERY high bust rate for draft picks, even first rounders.

See my previous post for a rebuttal:

One thing to keep in mind is that this notion that the draft is a complete crapshoot is false. There are clearly teams with a structure in place that leads to consistently productive drafts (Baltimore, for instance). But those successful teams get mixed in with the incompetent ones (Cinncinatti, for instance), so the overall 1st round success rate is around 50%. But the teams with a competent process of evaluation perform better than that rate. Obviously, we've never seen a Josh McDaniels draft, but he comes from an organization with an overall successful track record and is himself said to be astute at player evaluation, so hopefully that carries over. We'll see.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:08 PM
I think you would admit that in many situations there is a tendency to repeat the first thing reported, regardless of evidence that may contradict that initial report.

Yup, and Mortenson over-reported some story at one point, and had to retract something as I recall.

But the consensus reporting on this issue - the "actively negotiating" issue - that has gone way too far now to be simply sheep reporters following the lead dog. As mentioned, Mortenson was beat down by Schefter and Clayton on another story (anybody remember what that story was?), so why would they just follow without question his other report? If anything, they'd be more skeptical.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:08 PM
It doesn't CLEARLY mean anything. People all over the media (and this board) have mixed thoughts on what it really means.

No, it DOES clearly mean what I describe if you read the whole article in context. There is no other reasonable way to interpret it. Now, you may feel that his version is BS, and that's fine if you can prove it, but that is clearly how McDaniels intended that statement to be interpreted.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:11 PM
How does that implicate McDaniels in anything? Bowlen's position is that younger Goodman was perceived as somewhat of an in-house renegade amongst the rest of the personnel department, and that he was at odds with Xanders. So, Bowlen felt it was in the best interest of the organization to get rid of him. And, of course, there was no way to keep the older Goodman on board after firing his son. There has been no indication that McDaniels had any involvement in that. Hell, I have not even read any speculation of that anywhere.

We are supposed to believe that the Broncos simply 'answered the phone'. We are supposed to believe that Bowlen never said things to Cutler. We are supposed to believe that the GM is the GM, and the new coach has limited power - until the GM is gone and the new coach is running the place like a czar. I simply don't know how much I am simply supposed to believe because 'they said so'. In a matter of months we go from a limited power coach and Goodman the GM to a coach who has ALL the power and Xanders as a rubber stamp.

Cito Pelon
04-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Paige has always been a jackass. An embarrassment to Colorado.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Yup, and Mortenson over-reported some story at one point, and had to retract something as I recall.

But the consensus reporting on this issue - the "actively negotiating" issue - that has gone way too far now to be simply sheep reporters following the lead dog. As mentioned, Mortenson was beat down by Schefter and Clayton on another story (anybody remember what that story was?), so why would they just follow without question his other report? If anything, they'd be more skeptical.

You'd think, but it doesn't always happen that way. I think we have a clear "lead dog" scenario here because there have been no other reports other than those initially made that suggest active pursuit. If it were merely a case of Mortenson getting his detail wrong and someone coming along later with other details, that would be different. But the only evidence of active pursuit come from those initial reports, which no longer look valid. Those initial reports had us moving Cutler and a 3rd for Cassel and Tampa's 1st, which would have gone to the Pats. We know that's bogus because Belichek said that he never got any offer at all other than the KC deal, and he scoffed at the notion that he would have turned down a better deal just to save a few bucks or out of the kindness of his heart to help Pioli (the latter seems particularly unlikely given what we know about Belichek). He even went so far as to say that no one else was even interested in the player. So, yeah, I think we have a case here of folks running away with the initially story.

24champ
04-09-2009, 12:13 PM
We are supposed to believe that the Broncos simply 'answered the phone'.

And...it was somehow just a coincidence that FOUR teams called the Broncos about Jay independently.



Right.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Question for the "Cutler Supporters"... What do you all think of Jay's interviews the day he became a Bear?

To me, this shows that the Cutler side is almost certainly lying and the McDaniels side is telling the truth.


I had the exact opposite feeling. Cutler didn't want to say anything negative about the team, the fans, the franchise - and he didn't. Why is that a problem?

McDaniels spent his whole '15 minutes of fame' telling the world why he was right and Cutler was wrong. And that 'the player' business made him look like a complete ass. YOU AREN'T PARCELLS KID!

Cutler took the high road and the Broncos org (including Bowlen and his preposterous ad in the paper) bent over backwards to throw Cutler under the bus. I found it extremely unprofessional.

Look at what the Giants did when they released Plaxico. It was classy. 'We wish him well, it didn't work out, blah blah'. It looked like a team of pros. And they had a lot more to be pissed about than the Broncos organization.

When the Broncos front office show up in their hoodies looking like a bunch of nitwits and spend all their time playing CYA. I thought it was a very sad moment for the franchise.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Common sense also says that if McDaniels has said 'no thanks, I like Cutler as my guy', Cutler would have been PLEASED with that show of support, not PISSED. And the McDaniels supports convienently ignore the 'radio silence' from Dove Valley when the news broke, the claims that Cutler's calls were not returned, etc.

What does 'we were late to the dance' mean to you?

I had forgotten the blue stuff ... thanks. Yep, no doubt Josh was working on that trade. Read that Inferno ^^^ ... plus those Vikings reports that came outta left field just last week, and like A.L.F. said, too many teams involved to believe Jay was not in play. No, there's a lot more fire than smoke here. I can't believe Pat gave this inexperienced kid such sweeping powers ... with Goodman gone and Xanders neutered, Josh's is learnin on the job :oyvey:

But it's important to remember IT'S OKAY JOSH NEGOTIATED! But it's not okay he kept Jay out of the loop, and lied/misled him later.



I'm telling you guys, we're gonna regret this. I firmly believe Jay Cutler will be among the best 2 or 3 QBs in the league within a couple years ... while we will get maybe an Al WIlson and George Foster with the two picks - one hit, one miss. :(

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:19 PM
We are supposed to believe that the Broncos simply 'answered the phone'. We are supposed to believe that Bowlen never said things to Cutler. We are supposed to believe that the GM is the GM, and the new coach has limited power - until the GM is gone and the new coach is running the place like a czar. I simply don't know how much I am simply supposed to believe because 'they said so'. In a matter of months we go from a limited power coach and Goodman the GM to a coach who has ALL the power and Xanders as a rubber stamp.

Yet you believe Cutler even though he has made bizarre statements like, 'I'm surprised, I never wanted to be traded' even though he or his agent flat out asked for a trade at least once (twice if you believe Peter King). Bizarre statements such as that McDaniels said, in effect, 'yeah i wanted Cassel and I still would prefer to have my own guy over you' in the face-to-face. If you really believe McDaniels said anything of the kind, I've got stock in AIG you might be interested in. I will agree that Bowlen made some statements that he went back on. Were those outright lies? I doubt it, I'm sure he believed it at the time. What would he had to have gained by lying on the Goodman issue? So, it's certainly fair to question how well-thought out Bowlen's firing of Shanny and the aftermath was. Does that justify Cutler's tempter-tantrum and insubordination? Hell no.

24champ
04-09-2009, 12:20 PM
I had forgotten the blue stuff ... thanks! Yep, no doubt Josh was working on that trade. Those Vikings reports that came outta left field just last week ... there's a lot more fire than smoke there.

But it's important to remember IT'S OKAY JOSH NEGOTIATED! But it's not okay he kept Jay out of the loop, and lied/misled him later.



I'm telling you guys, we're gonna regret this. I firmly believe Jay Cutler will be among the best 2 or 3 QBs in the league within a couple years ... while we will get maybe an Al WIlson and George Foster with the two picks - one hit, one miss. :(

Speaking of negotiating skills...didn't the Bears trade almost fall through because McDaniels/Xanders weren't returning the phone calls from Bears GM Angelo?

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Bronco suporters will wish mcdaniels well. Cutler supporters will hope he fails just so they will be right regardless of detriment to the team. Bronco supporters understand the team concept. Cutler supporters do not they think it all falls on qb and no one else when it's pretty obvious that running game And defense wins football not 4000 passig yards

Cito Pelon
04-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Per ESPN:
Cutler feels like McDaniels lost his credibility with him when he initially denied to the quarterback that the Broncos tried to acquire Cassel only to admit it later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

Cutler himself said a week after the trade talks that he hadn't talked to McDaniels. So how did Cutler get lied to? My god, if you haven't figured out yet that this whole thing was dreamed up in Cutler's overheated prepubescent imagination, you're incredibly pathetic.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:22 PM
Speaking of negotiating skills...didn't the Bears trade almost fall through because McDaniels/Xanders weren't returning the phone calls from Bears GM Angelo?

They were hosting practice idiot

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Yep, no doubt Josh was working on that trade.

Then why does Belichek say he NEVER received any offer for Cassel other than the KC offer of a 2nd for Cassel AND Vrabel? Why does he further say that no one else even expressed an interest for the player? Don't you think that if Josh were feverishly working out the details of a trade that would have been on the phone with Belichek saying, "Hey, give me a couple of hours, I've gotten something cooking." That didn't happen though. The scenario that McDaniels was actively trying to bring in Cassel simply does not add up. It doesn't come close to passing the sniff test.

24champ
04-09-2009, 12:27 PM
They were hosting practice idiot

Why does Xanders have to be at Practice. Couldn't he have returned the phone calls? He is the "GM"....right?

USMCBladerunner
04-09-2009, 12:29 PM
I'm not surprised that Woody Paige and I have come to different conclusions about what happened and why regarding this ordeal. He's established a large body of work demonstrating his inability to discern fact from fiction and fantasy from reality.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Why does Xanders have to be at Practice. Couldn't he have returned the phone calls? He is the "GM"....right?

Capologist not evaluator.not everything is a conspiracy.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Yet you believe Cutler even though he has made bizarre statements like, 'I'm surprised, I never wanted to be traded' even though he or his agent flat out asked for a trade at least once (twice if you believe Peter King). Bizarre statements such as that McDaniels said, in effect, 'yeah i wanted Cassel and I still would prefer to have my own guy over you' in the face-to-face. If you really believe McDaniels said anything of the kind, I've got stock in AIG you might be interested in. I will agree that Bowlen made some statements that he went back on. Were those outright lies? I doubt it, I'm sure he believed it at the time. What would he had to have gained by lying on the Goodman issue? So, it's certainly fair to question how well-thought out Bowlen's firing of Shanny and the aftermath was. Does that justify Cutler's tempter-tantrum and insubordination? Hell no.

You don't know what McDaniels said. Neither do I.

Saying 'yeah I wanted Cassel and I still would prefer to have my own guy' isn't any nuttier than bringing in 'the player' and saying 'anybody is tradeable'. Well no ****, moron. You don't say something like that except in an attempt to piss him off and establish your top dog status.

Bowlen has said a number of things he went back on. At least we agree on that. But you have to believe one of two scenarios:

Pro McDaniels: Gets job, GM is fired simply because Jr. was a troublemaker, four teams call out of the blue to get Cutler, McDaniels thinks on it and says no, Cutler throws tantrum, signs Chris Simms to huge backup QB contract 'just cause', Cutler loses cell phone, is shipped out.

Pro Cutler: McDaniels gets job cause Bowlen doesn't want a coach with absolute power, McDaniels wants to move Cutler, Goodman's removed becuase they don't want to trade Cutler, McDaniels given absolute power, Cutler is shopped, McDaniels lies about it, in face-to-face tells Cutler 'no one is untradeable', Cutler is sent to Windy City.

outdoor_miner
04-09-2009, 12:30 PM
I had the exact opposite feeling. Cutler didn't want to say anything negative about the team, the fans, the franchise - and he didn't. Why is that a problem?

McDaniels spent his whole '15 minutes of fame' telling the world why he was right and Cutler was wrong. And that 'the player' business made him look like a complete ass. YOU AREN'T PARCELLS KID!

Cutler took the high road and the Broncos org (including Bowlen and his preposterous ad in the paper) bent over backwards to throw Cutler under the bus. I found it extremely unprofessional.

Look at what the Giants did when they released Plaxico. It was classy. 'We wish him well, it didn't work out, blah blah'. It looked like a team of pros. And they had a lot more to be pissed about than the Broncos organization.

When the Broncos front office show up in their hoodies looking like a bunch of nitwits and spend all their time playing CYA. I thought it was a very sad moment for the franchise.

Interesting... It's just that (to me) Cutler has never previously shown the ability to filter his thoughts. I mean - if you look at his history, when has ever not spoken his mind? Look at the Rivers situation. Rivers kept trying to sweep it under the rug, saying he had no problem with Jay. However, Jay would disparage Rivers every chance he got. Same with Shanahan being fired. Same with calling out teammates on and off the field.

It just seems completely out of character for Cutler to "let it go". He has shown no history of being able to do this.

Anyway, thanks for responding. Interesting that you see it so differently than me.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Then why does Belichek say he NEVER received any offer for Cassel other than the KC offer of a 2nd for Cassel AND Vrabel? Why does he further say that no one else even expressed an interest for the player? Don't you think that if Josh were feverishly working out the details of a trade that would have been on the phone with Belichek saying, "Hey, give me a couple of hours, I've gotten something cooking." That didn't happen though. The scenario that McDaniels was actively trying to bring in Cassel simply does not add up. It doesn't come close to passing the sniff test.

Neither does teams suddenly calling out of the blue asking for a price tag on the Cutler clearance. Especially when the news broke combine weekend and the organization boldy stepped forward and said

nothing.

Hotrod
04-09-2009, 12:32 PM
This is why Woody is making money. He can get such a reaction going Ha!

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:33 PM
It just seems completely out of character for Cutler to "let it go". He has shown no history of being able to do this.


My guess it is simply coaching. His agent, Satan Bin Laden, said 'when they ask you about Denver, simply read these lines from Bull Durham'.

:)

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:34 PM
i think its pretty obvious:

people who are absolutely pro-cutler are emotionally thinking about the situation, so connected to a single player on a team of 53 you cant see the big picture. thinking logically, however, you realize there are a lot more players that make this team function.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:35 PM
Neither does teams suddenly calling out of the blue asking for a price tag on the Cutler clearance. Especially when the news broke combine weekend and the organization boldy stepped forward and said

nothing.

Expect I've pointed out actual statements made by the guy in the best position to know for sure what was offered and what wasn't, who was interested and who wasn't...Belichek. And he contradicts the scenario you've bought into. Could he be lying? Sure. What the hell would he have to gain from it? Just helping out his boy McD? Just out of the kindness of his heart? Please. Fact is, Belichek statement essentially kills the scenario you've bought in to.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:37 PM
i think its pretty obvious:

people who are absolutely pro-cutler are emotionally thinking about the situation, so connected to a single player on a team of 53 you cant see the big picture. thinking logically, however, you realize there are a lot more players that make this team function.

It is pretty obvious. If you are a huge fan of the team and they tell you that **** on a stick tastes good cause it is BRONCOS **** ON A STICK, you eat it and wave your foam finger around. Go Broncos!

If you approach it logically you realize that everybody has 'a system' and that it takes good players to win. And this franchise just sent a good player packing so a coach who has accomplished nothing can assert his manhood.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:39 PM
It is pretty obvious. If you are a huge fan of the team and they tell you that **** on a stick tastes good cause it is BRONCOS **** ON A STICK, you eat it and wave your foam finger around. Go Broncos!

If you approach it logically you realize that everybody has 'a system' and that it takes good players to win. And this franchise just sent a good player packing so a coach who has accomplished nothing can assert his manhood.

no, he sent a good player packing because the compensation in return would make the TEAM better.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:39 PM
Expect I've pointed out actual statements made by the guy in the best position to know for sure what was offered and what wasn't, who was interested and who wasn't...Belichek. And he contradicts the scenario you've bought into. Could he be lying? Sure. What the hell would he have to gain from it? Just helping out his boy McD? Just out of the kindness of his heart? Please. Fact is, Belichek statement essentially kills the scenario you've bought in to.

Actually my friend, Belicheck's statement does NOTHING to clarify if McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler OR explain why there was no official response from the franchise after the Mortensen story broke.

(and that assume you believe him)

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 12:39 PM
Woody is SO correct, NOT especially about how very little we got in return. Two first-rounders sounds great, but let's look at the facts and be realistic ....

Roll the dice and let fate choose two:

Deltha O'Neal
Al Wilson
Marcus Nash
Willie Middlebrooks
George Foster
Ashley Lelie
D.J. Williams
Jarvis Moss
Ryan Clady


See? That's why Woody is right ... it's not such a pretty picture when you look at our last 10 1st round picks.

Even the very BEST two, Wilson and Clady, are barely worth Cutler - if at all.

Funny how McD wasn't even involved with any of those picks first rounders ... and nobody here really was! Hummmmm ... You think its possible these guys might even be a little better at picking high than Shanny was, or maybe just more lucky??? Why not wait and see for a bit before throwing the season in the canal.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:40 PM
Speaking of negotiating skills...didn't the Bears trade almost fall through because McDaniels/Xanders weren't returning the phone calls from Bears GM Angelo?

YES THEY DID! And that nugget came straight from Angelo's interview, he was ready to abandon the deal after numerous messages and texts went unreturned for lengthy periods. I thinjk it turned out Josh was at practice or something - which at least is where he should be at ALL times. 24/7.

So in Jerry Angelo and Jay Cutler, that's two important instances where Josh left important folks hangng in the communicatiosn department. I'm tellin' ya, this kid has too much on his plate.

24champ
04-09-2009, 12:42 PM
Capologist not evaluator.not everything is a conspiracy.

If you are promoted to "GM" as Pat Bowlen did for Xanders, shouldn't he at least be able to handle trade negotiations? I mean we have technology now, like cell phones and the like if McDaniels wanted to be filled on the details.

There's no excuse for not returning numerous phone calls to a team that had the best offer.

OABB
04-09-2009, 12:42 PM
I was wondering, what are all of your thoughts on the Jay Cutler Josh Mcdaniels fiasco.

I think this is a topic that could really use some discussion. Lord knows I have tried to find opinions on the Mane about it for weeks, but to no avail.

Anyways, do we think it was Mcdaniels fault or Cutler's? discuss.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:42 PM
no, he sent a good player packing because the compensation in return would make the TEAM better.

COULD make the team better

Compensation in the form of draft picks means nothing. Capitalizing on the picks is what counts. I will never discount that the FO could turn these picks into gold and improve the team in the long term. That is possible. But finding a solid QB is hard, obviously harder than McDaniels thinks.

Remember, this team was in the AFCC game not long ago with a solid defense and a sound run game, but the QB held them back (or so we were told). So they solidified that position at the expense of others. Now we are told the defense needs to be improved and we'll just 'fill in' the QB spot.

And ALL this is moot if McDaniels takes Sanchez in round 1, especially if he trades up to get him (I would be quite surprised if that happens).

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Actually my friend, Belicheck's statement does NOTHING to clarify if McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler OR explain why there was no official response from the franchise after the Mortensen story broke.

(and that assume you believe him)

It kills your scenario, sorry. If McD were feverishly trying to make the trade happen, there is no question he would have been on the phone with Belichek letting him know that something was in the works. But Belichek says only one team expressed interest or made an offer. You seriously believe that McD wanted Cassel badly, was working on a deal, but did not bother to clue in Belichek? Doesn't pass the sniff test.

And, yeah, I know I know...Belichek's a liar. Never mind the fact that he has zero to gain in this case by doing so. If anything, it benefits him more to say nothing and let the speculation continue to fester for a conference rival.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Funny how McD wasn't even involved with any of those picks first rounders ... and nobody here really was! Hummmmm ...

Yes I know that. EVERYBODY knows that. I hope you don't think you won some kind of point there ... ::)


You think its possible these guys might even be a little better at picking high than Shanny was, or maybe just more lucky??? Why not wait and see for a bit before throwing the season in the canal.

Yes, it is definitely possible. But there's certainly no indication they will be. Not yet anyway.

One thing we DO KNOW: Jim Goodman would've been better than Mike, and to a 90% predictive certainty, would be better that Josh will be. I hope I'm wrong, but all the stats and history and reality indicate otherwise.

With the Bears picks, we'll hit on one, miss on the other (say, Al Wilson and George Foster). Plus, hopefully, we'll nail a contributor with the 3rd rounder.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Funny how McD wasn't even involved with any of those picks first rounders ... and nobody here really was! Hummmmm ... You think its possible these guys might even be a little better at picking high than Shanny was, or maybe just more lucky??? Why not wait and see for a bit before throwing the season in the canal.

O'Neal led the conference in INTs twice and went to the Pro Bowl. I know Deltha wore out his welcome in Denver, but he wasn't a bad player all things considered.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:47 PM
YES THEY DID! And that nugget came straight from Angelo's interview, he was ready to abandon the deal after numerous messages and texts went unreturned for lengthy periods. I thinjk it turned out Josh was at practice or something - which at least is where he should be at ALL times. 24/7.

So in Jerry Angelo and Jay Cutler, that's two important instances where Josh left important folks hangng in the communicatiosn department. I'm tellin' ya, this kid has too much on his plate.

No, what happened was the McDaniels said we aren't going to shut things down for the trade, we are going to go about business as usual. They had player meetings and also draft prospects in the building to interview, and obviously both McDaniels and Xanders wanted to be there. I say that's exactly the right way to treat it.

Plus, it is not a bad negotiating tactic to let the other guy sweat a little, and Angelo's statements clearly suggest he was sweating. He said he even sent a text saying, roughly, "What's going on? We have to make this deal happen."

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:47 PM
It kills your scenario, sorry.

Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

It doesn't address whether McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler.

It doesn't explain why there was no official response from the organization when the news broke.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:50 PM
No, what happened was the McDaniels said we aren't going to shut things down for the trade, we are going to go about business as usual. They had player meetings and also draft prospects in the building to interview, and obviously both McDaniels and Xanders wanted to be there. I say that's exactly the right way to treat it.

Plus, it is not a bad negotiating tactic to let the other guy sweat a little, and Angelo's statements clearly suggest he was sweating. He said he even sent a text saying, roughly, "What's going on? We have to make this deal happen."

Is there anything McDaniels could do that you wouldn't applaud? If he came out riding Thuder and put the horse on a trailer labelled 'Alpo' - would that be another brilliant move?

It is just silly for people who aren't drowning in Kool-Aid to be told they are 'emotional' because they don't agree with these moves. But anything and everything McDaniels does is pristine.

Xanders is the GM. Xanders should be making trades. McDaniels should be coaching players. Didn't we just have the owner say he didn't want a coach to have all the power?

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

It doesn't address whether McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler.

If he wanted to replace Cutler, Cassel was the only viable option available at the time. So, if that was his plan, he certainly did not make much of an effort to get it done. He did not even bother to call Belichek to let him know he was interested in the player. Yeah, it pretty much does kill the notion that McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler.

It doesn't explain why there was no official response from the organization when the news broke.

What the hell does that prove? Maybe they wanted to talk to Jay first? Maybe they thought commenting would just add fuel to the fire? That means nothing.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:54 PM
If he wanted to replace Cutler, Cassel was the only viable option available at the time. So, if that was his plan, he certainly did not make much of an effort to get it done. He did not even bother to call Belichek to let him know he was interested in the player. Yeah, it pretty much does kill the notion that McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler.

Apparently not. Apparently Kyle Orton is a fantastic player. I saw the press conference, that's what they said...

What the hell does that prove? Maybe they wanted to talk to Jay first? Maybe they thought commenting would just add fuel to the fire? That means nothing.

If 'Jay Cutler is my quarterback', which is what McDaniels said later on NFL network, why not release that information when the story broke? Why not call Mortenson and say 'you are wrong, Cutler is our QB'?

And besides Cutler claimed nobody in Dove Valley would answer his calls.

So when the Broncos say Cutler doesn't answer the phone, we take another swill of the orange and blue Kool Aid.

But when Cutler says the Broncos won't answer the phone, we point and yell 'liar liar, pants on fire'??

In some people's eyes, this new coach can do no wrong. I simply don't understand that.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 12:55 PM
COULD make the team better

Compensation in the form of draft picks means nothing. Capitalizing on the picks is what counts. I will never discount that the FO could turn these picks into gold and improve the team in the long term. That is possible. But finding a solid QB is hard, obviously harder than McDaniels thinks.

Remember, this team was in the AFCC game not long ago with a solid defense and a sound run game, but the QB held them back (or so we were told). So they solidified that position at the expense of others. Now we are told the defense needs to be improved and we'll just 'fill in' the QB spot.

And ALL this is moot if McDaniels takes Sanchez in round 1, especially if he trades up to get him (I would be quite surprised if that happens).

this is the NE way homey, and its very effective. its all about the draft and nothing more. you develop and keep your own players, while adding a few key free agents every now and then, to build a constant competitor and championship team. for years people on this board wanted exactly that, and thats what we have now and yall are bitching.

OABB
04-09-2009, 12:56 PM
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BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Is there anything McDaniels could do that you wouldn't applaud? If he came out riding Thuder and put the horse on a trailer labelled 'Alpo' - would that be another brilliant move?

It is just silly for people who aren't drowning in Kool-Aid to be told they are 'emotional' because they don't agree with these moves. But anything and everything McDaniels does is pristine.

Xanders is the GM. Xanders should be making trades. McDaniels should be coaching players. Didn't we just have the owner say he didn't want a coach to have all the power?

Is there anything McDaniels does you won't spin to be a monumental goof up? Extreme negativism is not any better or any more realistic than homerism, it's just the extreme the other end of the spectrum.

My philosophy is that it's a waste of time to assume failure without letting things play out. My philosophy is to not accuse people of lying without proof, and in this case the only solid, verifiable info vindicates the front office position. If solid evidence ever surfaces to the contrary, I'll change my position. But that hasn't happened yet. And if McDaniels program fails, I'll want him gone just like everyone else. But, call me crazy, I'm going to wait until he actually coaches a game or two.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 12:57 PM
this is the NE way homey, and its very effective. its all about the draft and nothing more. you develop and keep your own players, while adding a few key free agents every now and then, to build a constant competitor and championship team. for years people on this board wanted exactly that, and thats what we have now and yall are b****ing.

It is also about fleecing other teams in draft day trades, which NE has done nicely for years (trading this years picks for next years picks for example)

I just don't remember them moving their better players for draft picks.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 01:01 PM
It doesn't explain why there was no official response from the organization when the news broke.What the hell does that prove? Maybe they wanted to talk to Jay first? Maybe they thought commenting would just add fuel to the fire? That means nothing.

To me, it means there's more than smoke, there's fire. Teams historically clam up when something's brewing and negotiations get hot.

But then again, Josh is so inexperienced, you never know.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 01:01 PM
Is there anything McDaniels does you won't spin to be a monumental goof up?

No spinning required. He's quite capable to goof up on his own. :)

Extreme negativism is not any better or any more realistic than homerism, it's just the extreme the other end of the spectrum.

I'm not a negativist, I'm a realist. We replaced Plummer with Cutler because we need a 'good QB' to succeed. Now we are replacing Plummer with Orton because, apparently, we don't. I dont' know any Bears fans crying the blues about Orton leaving town.

I don't know what is going to happen. But I question the guys judgement. And based on what has happened, I think he's made a play for power within only a few months of being hired. I see his FA moves as questionable at best and he has blown up the part of the team that was the most successful.

Evidence only tends to make people believe one way or another. There is irrefutable proof. The evidence, as I see it, makes McDaniels look like a liar.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Apparently not. Apparently Kyle Orton is a fantastic player. I saw the press conference, that's what they said...

He had no way in the world of knowing at the time that Orton was an option.


If 'Jay Cutler is my quarterback', which is what McDaniels said later on NFL network, why not release that information when the story broke? Why not call Mortenson and say 'you are wrong, Cutler is our QB'?

And besides Cutler claimed nobody in Dove Valley would answer his calls.

So when the Broncos say Cutler doesn't answer the phone, we take another swill of the orange and blue Kool Aid.

But when Cutler says the Broncos won't answer the phone, we point and yell 'liar liar, pants on fire'??

In some people's eyes, this new coach can do no wrong. I simply don't understand that.

Cutler can do no wrong in yours, obviously. It's utterly laughable how you talk about drinking the kool aid and not criticizing McDaniels when you are in the tank for Cutler. There are any number of reasonable explanations why they may not have talked to the press initially, which I've already addressed. If they really intentionally cut off contact with Cutler, I agree that was a mistake, but it doesn't prove much either way.

Look, it's a simple fact that the preponderance of evidence is on the side of the front office. You can deny it and talk about kool aid all you want, but Belichek's statement confirms their version. All you have left is to call Belichek a liar, too, but unfortunately there is no proof of that in this case either and furthermore he has nothing to gain by doing so.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 01:06 PM
Plus, it is not a bad negotiating tactic to let the other guy sweat a little, and Angelo's statements clearly suggest he was sweating. He said he even sent a text saying, roughly, "What's going on? We have to make this deal happen."

Yes, I might've overstated it a bit ... but communication is never wrong, and Angelo did say he was all set to pull the offer.

If you wanna make 'em sweat, tell them you have another team bidding and it might be a few hours, or maybe tomorrow. Josh is so inexperienced, and with Goodman and Cutler gone and his fingerprints all over the place, I simply cannot and will not give him the benefit of the doubt. Not yet. After all this carnage, he must earn me back ;D

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Evidence only tends to make people believe one way or another. There is irrefutable proof. The evidence, as I see it, makes McDaniels look like a liar.

The only irrefutable, verifiable proof in this case is Belichek's statement which confirms the front office position. Period. To say that the evidence shows McDaniels to be a liar proves you aren't interested in objectively looking at the evidence, but have made your mind up that Cutler is the victim. And, no, you aren't a realist, you are being a negativist...that's no better than a homer, just a lot less pleasant to be around.

vancejohnson82
04-09-2009, 01:07 PM
No spinning required. He's quite capable to goof up on his own. :)



I'm not a negativist, I'm a realist. We replaced Plummer with Cutler because we need a 'good QB' to succeed. Now we are replacing Plummer with Orton because, apparently, we don't. I dont' know any Bears fans crying the blues about Orton leaving town.
I don't know what is going to happen. But I question the guys judgement. And based on what has happened, I think he's made a play for power within only a few months of being hired. I see his FA moves as questionable at best and he has blown up the part of the team that was the most successful.

Evidence only tends to make people believe one way or another. There is irrefutable proof. The evidence, as I see it, makes McDaniels look like a liar.

no, i havent read of any fans crying...but a bunch of PLAYERS were upset to see Orton go....

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 01:07 PM
No spinning required. He's quite capable to goof up on his own. :)



I'm not a negativist, I'm a realist. We replaced Plummer with Cutler because we need a 'good QB' to succeed. Now we are replacing Plummer with Orton because, apparently, we don't. I dont' know any Bears fans crying the blues about Orton leaving town.

I don't know what is going to happen. But I question the guys judgement. And based on what has happened, I think he's made a play for power within only a few months of being hired. I see his FA moves as questionable at best and he has blown up the part of the team that was the most successful.

Evidence only tends to make people believe one way or another. There is irrefutable proof. The evidence, as I see it, makes McDaniels look like a liar.

the best part of the team was still questionably good. they put up a ton of yards with few points, thanks in part to cutlers questionable decision making. how many times did we all scream in chat last year "hit the check down guy!" after scheffler was sitting in the middle of the field staring around blankly cuz he didnt get the ball?

DrFate
04-09-2009, 01:08 PM
He had no way in the world of knowing at the time that Orton was an option.

Trust me. My brother's a Bears fan. Orton was always an option. They desparately have wanted Grossman to win that job. They would have given up Orton for a ham sandwich.

Cutler can do no wrong in yours, obviously. It's utterly laughable how you talk about drinking the kool aid and not criticizing McDaniels when you are in the tank for Cutler. There are any number of reasonable explanations why they may not have talked to the press initially, which I've already addressed. If they really intentionally cut off contact with Cutler, I agree that was a mistake, but it doesn't prove much either way.

I think you brought up spinning previously. Please, continue telling me of the myriad of reasons why the organization went dark when rumors abound that they are trading their top player. Do go on.

Look, it's a simple fact that the preponderance of evidence is on the side of the front office.

In your view. More than a few people disagree.

DrFate
04-09-2009, 01:09 PM
no, i havent read of any fans crying...but a bunch of PLAYERS were upset to see Orton go....

I never said Orton wasn't a nice guy...

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 01:14 PM
Actually my friend, Belicheck's statement does NOTHING to clarify if McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler OR explain why there was no official response from the franchise after the Mortensen story broke.

(and that assume you believe him)

Might be because they told Jay that morning ... AND they were hip deep in FA trying to sign Dawkins who was in town and get Hill and Goodman on the hook as well ... could be they were just a tad busy and had just got blindsided by the Cassel deal to KC as well?

Do some of you guys honestly think 'if only McD had said just the right thing at just the right time to Baby Jay all of this would have blown over??? Not likely

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 01:22 PM
OK, Dr. Fate, so you really believe that it was McDaniels goal to get rid of Cutler PERIOD, whether or not he succeeded in landing Cassel? Is that what you really believe?

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 01:23 PM
No spinning required. He's quite capable to goof up on his own. :)

Evidence only tends to make people believe one way or another. There is irrefutable proof. The evidence, as I see it, makes McDaniels look like a liar.

And now he's making 'a power play' within the organization ....Ha! Tjesus! dude do you stay up at night living in fantasyland?

I saw Elvis last week too, and know some one who knows some one who has the secret code to the storage room at Area 51! Maybe you should apply for a job on Conspiracy TV!?

Bowlen gave McD the job to do it exactly what he's doing. Bowlen has stated he gave him directives to explore any avenue to make this team a winner. And Bowlen has voiced his 100% staunch support for McD all along. End of Story!

So just where, pray tell, is this raging manic conspiracy power play in all of this by Megalomaniac Josh!?!

Man, some of you guys really need to put down the bong, its starting to melt your mind! :sunshine:

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 01:25 PM
I think you brought up spinning previously. Please, continue telling me of the myriad of reasons why the organization went dark when rumors abound that they are trading their top player. Do go on.

I already mentioned a couple. Here another: They were knee deep in contract negotiations at the time. Maybe they didn't want to risk alienating a potential target by cutting off talks to go address the media merry-go-round. Sounds reasonable to me. I don't KNOW that that is the reason, I'm just saying there are plausible scenarios that aren't sinister.

Irish Stout
04-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Is this debate still going on? Look people who were technically Broncos at the time screwed up. They were a part of our organization at the time... as such parts of our organization screwed up had problems and didn't handle their sh*t correctly. Now that problem is over and certain changes have been made because of it. Its like Bankruptcy, it doesn't matter what happened that got you there, you need to figure out a plan thats going to work for you moving forward.

Finger pointing is never going to get either side anywhere... Jay's no longer pointing and McD is no longer pointing, I think the rest of you should just let it go.

gyldenlove
04-09-2009, 01:50 PM
Funny how McD wasn't even involved with any of those picks first rounders ... and nobody here really was! Hummmmm ... You think its possible these guys might even be a little better at picking high than Shanny was, or maybe just more lucky??? Why not wait and see for a bit before throwing the season in the canal.

Well, the scouts are the same except for the people we lost. The evaluators have no experience at all.

I am waiting to see, but the odds-makers are not giving us good odds.

Cito Pelon
04-09-2009, 02:26 PM
YES THEY DID! And that nugget came straight from Angelo's interview, he was ready to abandon the deal after numerous messages and texts went unreturned for lengthy periods. I thinjk it turned out Josh was at practice or something - which at least is where he should be at ALL times. 24/7.

So in Jerry Angelo and Jay Cutler, that's two important instances where Josh left important folks hangng in the communicatiosn department. I'm tellin' ya, this kid has too much on his plate.

Gawd you're pathetic.

hambone13
04-09-2009, 03:21 PM
No, what happened was the McDaniels said we aren't going to shut things down for the trade, we are going to go about business as usual. They had player meetings and also draft prospects in the building to interview, and obviously both McDaniels and Xanders wanted to be there. I say that's exactly the right way to treat it.

Plus, it is not a bad negotiating tactic to let the other guy sweat a little, and Angelo's statements clearly suggest he was sweating. He said he even sent a text saying, roughly, "What's going on? We have to make this deal happen."

I think it says a lot for the realities of how much of a gamble JC's character is when arguably the most conservative GM's in the game, being governed by arguably some of the most conservative ownerships in the league are willing to trade away what they did and was in fact sweating bullets because he was concerned it wouldn't go through.

Hulamau
04-09-2009, 03:22 PM
YES THEY DID! And that nugget came straight from Angelo's interview, he was ready to abandon the deal after numerous messages and texts went unreturned for lengthy periods. I thinjk it turned out Josh was at practice or something - which at least is where he should be at ALL times. 24/7.

So in Jerry Angelo and Jay Cutler, that's two important instances where Josh left important folks hangng in the communicatiosn department. I'm tellin' ya, this kid has too much on his plate.

Man you guys beating this dead horse are really stretching now and are sounding so ridiculous!

The deal did NOT almost fall through, not in the slightest, the bears weren't about to just walk away without talking to McD or Xanders! And McD taking care of practice business as he should, only let the Bears sweat it out a bit and think we were workign a deal with someone else and made them even more urgent about closing the deal and greased the wheels for them to go for the compromise and agree to the third and fifth exchange instead of giving us the lower round pick.

That was absolutely a smart move by McD on both levels, taking care of business with the rest of the team and not suspending operations, while at the same time taking care of the trade knowing full well Chicago was only going to get more excited not less with a little wait.

You guys beating this asinine drum must be lousy poker players, and you simply CANNOT read! Angelo also said the negotiation was "High Stacks Poker and he never saw any one else's hand", That is as high a compliment to Josh as you can get, and yet you phi beta kappa's are trying to cherry pick one portion of a quote and COMPLETELY misread its intent and then twist that into a problem!?!?

A first class Joke! :spit:

OABB
04-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Man you guys beating this dead horse are really stretching now and are sounding so ridiculous!

The deal did NOT almost fall through, not in the slightest, the bears weren't about to just walk away without talking to McD or Xanders! And McD taking care of practice business as he should, only let the Bears sweat it out a bit and think we were workign a deal with someone else and made them even more urgent about closing the deal and greased the wheels for them to go for the compromise and agree to the third and fifth exchange instead of giving us the lower round pick.

That was absolutely a smart move by McD on both levels, taking care of business with the rest of the team and not suspending operations, while at the same time taking care of the trade knowing full well Chicago was only going to get more excited not less with a little wait.

You guys beating this asinine drum must be lousy poker players, and you simply CANNOT read! Angelo also said the negotiation was "High Stacks Poker and he never saw any one else's hand", That is as high a compliment to Josh as you can get, and yet you phi beta kappa's are trying to cherry pick one portion of a quote and COMPLETELY misread its intent and then twist that into a problem!?!?

A first class Joke! :spit:


dude, the horse is beyond beaten here... these guys had to go find it's young and beat them to death. Next step is to genetically reproduce said horse, grow to full maturity and than beat that to death as well.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 03:29 PM
Man you guys beating this dead horse are really stretching now and are sounding so ridiculous!

The deal did NOT almost fall through, not in the slightest, the bears weren't about to just walk away without talking to McD or Xanders!

I just re-read it, and you're right. It was just three hours, and he was "afraid" the deal would fall apart, he wasn't ready to let if fall apart though. Never let it be said I won't admit when I'm wrong, Popps.

Bus as far as horse-beating, you're right there with us ;D

USMCBladerunner
04-09-2009, 04:32 PM
It is pretty obvious. If you are a huge fan of the team and they tell you that **** on a stick tastes good cause it is BRONCOS **** ON A STICK, you eat it and wave your foam finger around. Go Broncos!

If you approach it logically you realize that everybody has 'a system' and that it takes good players to win. And this franchise just sent a good player packing so a coach who has accomplished nothing can assert his manhood.

No, Bowlen sent a good player packing, because that good player made it clear that he didn't want to be in Denver anymore. He refused to answer phone calls from anyone, including the owner. I'm quite sure that it was Bowlen that pulled the trigger, mostly because he said so. McDaniels actions seeded this string of events, but it was Cutler that precipitated the divorce, that and Bowlen's impatience.

USMCBladerunner
04-09-2009, 04:40 PM
no, he sent a good player packing because the compensation in return would make the TEAM better.

No, Bowlen sent a good player packing, because that good player made it clear that he didn't want to be in Denver anymore. He refused to answer phone calls from anyone, including the owner. I'm quite sure that it was Bowlen that pulled the trigger, mostly because he said so. McDaniels actions seeded this string of events, but it was Cutler that precipitated the divorce, that and Bowlen's impatience.

I disagree with both you and Dr. Fate. This thing took on a life of it's own. McDaniels interest in Cassell, turned into a big deal with Cutler. Whether this was staged or a true breach of trust, I don't know, but from that point on, Cutler was forcing the deal. He got his wish (despite his lies that he didn't actually want to be traded) when Bowlen had enough.

The Broncos didn't want to do this trade with Chicago, but Cutler's intransigence, coupled with Bowlen's impatience, made it inevitable.

I'm sure there is a ring of truth that the team seeks to get bettter as a whole with the draft compensation and solid play out of Orton, but it's no louder than the ring of truth that the team just shipped out the most critical (and difficult to replace) member of a young, promising offense.

bombay
04-09-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm not crazy about Woody's silly wordplay, but I've always liked the old dude.

Popps
04-09-2009, 05:37 PM
mark it down... the 2009 broncos will win more games than the Cutler-led 2008 broncos.

But, see... that doesn't matter. Let me tell you how that will play out around here...

Scenario 1: We win the Superbowl:
All because of Shanahan/Goodman. We would have won it better if Cutler was still here.

Scenario 2: We win 8-10 games:
It's all because of Shanahan. McDouche had nothing to do with it. If we had Cutler, we would have won the Superbowl and not lost a single game.

Scenario 3: We win 4-7 games:
McDouche screwed up the team. If we had Cutler, we would have easily won 10 games.

Scenario 4: We win 4 or less games: Obviously, McDouche killed the franchise. There's no such thing as rebuilding.


Ya see?

There is no possible outcome of this coming season that will lead any of these usual suspects around here to giving the new staff any credit. None.
Pull this post up after the season is over if you doubt it. The same people crying in their soup around here will be running the BS listed above.

tsiguy96
04-09-2009, 05:42 PM
No, Bowlen sent a good player packing, because that good player made it clear that he didn't want to be in Denver anymore. He refused to answer phone calls from anyone, including the owner. I'm quite sure that it was Bowlen that pulled the trigger, mostly because he said so. McDaniels actions seeded this string of events, but it was Cutler that precipitated the divorce, that and Bowlen's impatience.

I disagree with both you and Dr. Fate. This thing took on a life of it's own. McDaniels interest in Cassell, turned into a big deal with Cutler. Whether this was staged or a true breach of trust, I don't know, but from that point on, Cutler was forcing the deal. He got his wish (despite his lies that he didn't actually want to be traded) when Bowlen had enough.

The Broncos didn't want to do this trade with Chicago, but Cutler's intransigence, coupled with Bowlen's impatience, made it inevitable.

I'm sure there is a ring of truth that the team seeks to get bettter as a whole with the draft compensation and solid play out of Orton, but it's no louder than the ring of truth that the team just shipped out the most critical (and difficult to replace) member of a young, promising offense.

i meant initially with cassel. the 2nd trade had to happen because crybaby wouldnt come out of his room.

the initial trade however would have gotten a QB that could run the system very effectively as well as picks. obviously the trade never even got close to picking up steam if belichek didnt even hear about it until after the trade was done, but if thats enough to send cutler crying, so be it.

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 06:01 PM
Are we still doing this?

Really though, this is all that needs to be said:

The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.

The leaders of the organization are ultimately responsible for the outcome of every situation pertaining to the team. Period.

footstepsfrom#27
04-09-2009, 06:02 PM
Paige, for once...is right.

baja
04-09-2009, 06:11 PM
I just re-read it, and you're right. It was just three hours, and he was "afraid" the deal would fall apart, he wasn't ready to let if fall apart though. Never let it be said I won't admit when I'm wrong, Popps.

Bus as far as horse-beating, you're right there with us ;D

Dude you back peddle more than unicyclist. ;D

DrFate
04-09-2009, 06:34 PM
OK, Dr. Fate, so you really believe that it was McDaniels goal to get rid of Cutler PERIOD, whether or not he succeeded in landing Cassel? Is that what you really believe?

Dude, I'm not sure it matters. There isn't anything rational about people who believe what the front office says without question.

You want me to believe that these teams, out of the blue, call the Broncos and ask to trade for Cutler. (I find that very difficult to believe by itself) You want me to believe McDaniels says 'no thanks', and Cutler, literally, throws a tantrum. (which makes no sense if McDaniels actually turned down a trade - seriously? How does that make sense? Isn't that an endorsement of Cutler?)

But I'm supposed to ignore the Goodman firing. I'm supposed to ignore the incredulity of GMs calling for the teams best known player. I'm supposed to ignore the silence that surrounded the team when the rumors hit. I'm supposed to ignore the 'anybody can be traded' comments, the 'late to the dance' comments, the mixed messages that kept coming from the franchise (and I get the fact that you guys buy it wholesale - and you have that right - but I'm far from the only one who didn't). I'm supposed to ignore how quickly this deal went through. And I'm supposed to ignore the embarassment of the aftermath (The Coach looked like a fool at the pres conference - and seriously: Bowlen taking out an ad in the paper?) I watched the Cutler press conference, and it was Bull Durham: Cliches and the 'high road'. The fact that an NFL coach and owner spend an entire press conference telling everyone how right they were and how wrong Cutler was?!? You gotta be kidding me. How did the Giants get it right when they cut Plax, but the Broncos brass look so bad??

I've listened to people on this board, talking heads, etc. I've read the articles. Denver Post, ESPN, NFL.com (and NFL radio on Sirius). There is FAR from a consensus.

DBroncos4life
04-09-2009, 06:38 PM
Oh **** someone doesnt agree with the trade. So I guess everyone agree's even if all three picks turn out to be a bust we still got the better end of the trade right?

dreasher54
04-09-2009, 06:49 PM
We traded Cutler!?!


Haha

24champ
04-09-2009, 08:14 PM
And I'm supposed to ignore the embarassment of the aftermath (The Coach looked like a fool at the pres conference - and seriously: Bowlen taking out an ad in the paper?) I watched the Cutler press conference, and it was Bull Durham: Cliches and the 'high road'. The fact that an NFL coach and owner spend an entire press conference telling everyone how right they were and how wrong Cutler was?!? You gotta be kidding me.

Reminds me of the embarrassing Al Davis press conference to smear Kiffin after he fired him...

TotallyScrewed
04-09-2009, 08:32 PM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.

Here, here!! Pat has returned the team to 1999, if they're lucky. And he seems to think that getting a stud at QB will happen again...just give them some time to work their magic...Bah

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 08:37 PM
Dude, I'm not sure it matters. There isn't anything rational about people who believe what the front office says without question.

You want me to believe that these teams, out of the blue, call the Broncos and ask to trade for Cutler. (I find that very difficult to believe by itself) You want me to believe McDaniels says 'no thanks', and Cutler, literally, throws a tantrum. (which makes no sense if McDaniels actually turned down a trade - seriously? How does that make sense? Isn't that an endorsement of Cutler?)

But I'm supposed to ignore the Goodman firing. I'm supposed to ignore the incredulity of GMs calling for the teams best known player. I'm supposed to ignore the silence that surrounded the team when the rumors hit. I'm supposed to ignore the 'anybody can be traded' comments, the 'late to the dance' comments, the mixed messages that kept coming from the franchise (and I get the fact that you guys buy it wholesale - and you have that right - but I'm far from the only one who didn't). I'm supposed to ignore how quickly this deal went through. And I'm supposed to ignore the embarassment of the aftermath (The Coach looked like a fool at the pres conference - and seriously: Bowlen taking out an ad in the paper?) I watched the Cutler press conference, and it was Bull Durham: Cliches and the 'high road'. The fact that an NFL coach and owner spend an entire press conference telling everyone how right they were and how wrong Cutler was?!? You gotta be kidding me. How did the Giants get it right when they cut Plax, but the Broncos brass look so bad??

I've listened to people on this board, talking heads, etc. I've read the articles. Denver Post, ESPN, NFL.com (and NFL radio on Sirius). There is FAR from a consensus.

That is one great post ... especially about the difference between Pat and Josh's self-serving explanations, and Cutler's high roda. Jay really did take the high road.

TotallyScrewed
04-09-2009, 08:38 PM
Jay Cutler screwed it up by not doing what he signed a piece of paper to do.

Yes, his tender ass could have been gently patted more effectively by the entire organization, but in the end... his childish behavior illuminated things to such an extent that this decision had to be made.

As for us being set back "years," you have no proof of that. If we win eight games, you'll just insist that we would have won 12 with Cutler. No matter how this plays out, those who refused to see the reality of the Shanahan firing will be using this Cutler trade to try to justify their skewed position for years to come.

Honestly... if we win a Superbowl next year, the usual suspects will be around here saying that we "could have won it better" if Cutler was still here.

You stay pessimistic and sad, bro. Many of us are excited about the future of this team, and have a bit better understanding of how proper championship teams are built.

I'd bet that almost everyone would give you 500:1 that Denver doesn't win the SB next year. Anyone know how vegas sees this? Anyone really care? Thats because Denver is totally screwed not only for next year but for many years to come but you go ahead with the koolaid and the colored glasses.

Circle Orange
04-09-2009, 08:55 PM
Super Bowl or bust, baby. Let that be the mantra. !Booya!

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Dude you back peddle more than unicyclist. ;D

Naw, it's just being honest and objective.

You never see that around here, so I can see why it looks so unusual to you.

You should try it sometime ;D

______________________
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3914/20090324mcdanielsp1.jpg

baja
04-09-2009, 09:56 PM
That is one great post ... especially about the difference between Pat and Josh's self-serving explanations, and Cutler's high roda. Jay really did take the high road.

You mean he took the high road at the Chicago presser what a surprise. I know you don't think he took the high road before the trade.

There is one point in all this that I can agree with, the Broncos did not try very hard to keep Cutler. It smells like they wanted to dump him all along (I'm sure they have good reasons ) The way they played it one could deduce they were being careful to get the most value they could. If this is true they played their hand to perfection. I think when they saw the Chicago offer they jumped on the deal. I'm guessing Pat & Josh are high fiveing each other daily.

On to the draft.

Popps
04-09-2009, 11:18 PM
I'd bet that almost everyone would give you 500:1 that Denver doesn't win the SB next year. Anyone know how vegas sees this? Anyone really care? Thats because Denver is totally screwed not only for next year but for many years to come but you go ahead with the koolaid and the colored glasses.

Oh, sorry... we were supposed to keep going .500 or under, missing the playoffs? That was a lot of fun for you? Sorry that all came to an end.

All good for me, boss. You stay there in "Totally Screwed"-land."

Some of us fans are excited and optimistic.

DBroncos4life
04-09-2009, 11:45 PM
Oh, sorry... we were supposed to keep going .500 or under, missing the playoffs? That was a lot of fun for you? Sorry that all came to an end.

All good for me, boss. You stay there in "Totally Screwed"-land."

Some of us fans are excited and optimistic.

Hey the Titanic wasn't sinkable so I'm sure people held on to that to the very end too.

dsmoot
04-10-2009, 04:59 AM
The Broncos totally screwed this up. At the very least, we've set our organization back a couple of years. Hopefully not longer.

I personally put the blame on Pat. He sent the wrong message to Cutler when he said "Obviously, Jay's the man around here now." Then there's the whole issue where Jay says Pat assured him that the offense wasn't going to change - and then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?

Cutler could have handled it better. But so could Pat, Josh, and everyone else involved. I put the onus on the leaders of the organization - the ones who claim that the buck stops with them.\

There was blame in various degrees for everyone. Jay's immaturity that took form in various ways in this episode was the trump card. Pat's the boss. He has the right to change his mind about anything. Whether it be the front office, scouting, coaching staff, etc. When one stands back and looks at the decisions Pat has had to make over the years I see little to fault when I saw the outcome. His team has yet to even have a minicamp or a draft in the post Shanahan era. If I were to question anything he did do, it would be the delay in the decision to take control back when a lot of areas had been going south with free agent and drafting decisions post 2000 time frame.

Of all people, I did not want to see Cutler go. However, the way it played out revealed a lot about Jay Cutler that really made me question his ability to lead. You can talk about how physically good of a QB John Elway was on the field. He simply was outstanding as leader. A lot has been revealed about how lacking Jay was. The comparisons to Jeff George seemed unfair but the longer the situation persisted, the more questions were raised. A franchise QB does not run the franchise and his relationship with management is the model for every other player on the team. If he did not want the situation to end in a trade, he did nothing to avoid it. Given that a foundation is being laid for a change in direction in this organization, Jay did everything in his power to undermine it regardless of the mistakes made by McDaniels.

I look at the decision made by Pat Bowlen as a reluctant step that had to be taken and will benefit the franchise in the long term. Rewind tape and review the Bowlen/Reeves/Elway episode of the early-mid 90's. Everyone is accountable, Reeves, Elway, Shanahan, McDaniels and Cutler.

Atwater His Ass
04-10-2009, 05:03 AM
\

I look at the decision made by Pat Bowlen as a reluctant step that had to be taken and will benefit the franchise in the long term.

It was a decision he forced his own hand into making because of his blundering of it from day 1.

chrisp
04-10-2009, 05:21 AM
This one will never die now will it......

I don't necesarily believe everything the front office says, but I do find it a bit of a head-scratcher that some people are Sooooo sure that McD screwed it up, without having ANY idea exactly what was said - really, do you have a tape recording of his conversations? Unless you do, your convictions regarding who's to blame may be unfounded......

Thing is, there are a number of possibilities:

1) McDaniels screwed it up:

Jay was happy happy untill he heard about the trade, and then when he politely asked Mc D about it he got a 'screw you b**ch' attitude from him and then things went downhill from there.

I don't think this is particularly credible, but if there is any truth to it, McD was clearly attempting to build bridges afterwards so the situation should have improved, unless McD really does have cataclysmically appalling man-management skills. People will choose to believe in this becuase they hate Mc D or they wanta simple explanation, but to me it doesn't wash...

2) Pat screwed it up:

Telling Jay he was the man and then bringing in a guy who drummed his favourite coach out of town?

Yes, there may be some merit to this argument - Pat was quoted as saying the offense wouldn't change (although that could have been journo BS!) so I could appreciate Jay being pee'd off with that, and then the trade talks were just more fuel to the fire....but the bottom line for Jay is, yes you're talented, yes you needed a defense to really win anything, but YOU STILL HAVEN'T WON ANYTHING YET!! This game is NOT about potential, it is about winning, and you cannot be indulged like a megastar untill you actually have some titles & trophies to your name (and even then...). If Jay didn't appreciate this maybe he isn't the QB we all hoped he was..

3) McDaniels planned it all:

Our coach is an evil mastermind who did not believe in Cutler, so whilst saying all the right things he engineered this situation by subtly manipulating events untill they came to a head....

A bit far-fetched perhaps, but not totally impossible to believe. A new coach needs to stamp his authority on the team, so unless he felt that Cutler was 100% on board with his schemes he may well have thought of getting rid even if he did belive in the kid's talent. You can't win as a coach if people won't do what you say....

4) Cutler wanted to go:

As soon as McD was appointed, Cutler wanted to leave - he knew he wouldn't enjoy playing in Mc D's more conservative scheme so made his mind up to ship out one way or another.......

There are a lot of rumours of trade requests etc to back this up, and Cutler's demeanour just after he got traded was not that of someone who is gutted to be going. Plus, although Cutler does possibly have some flaws, I don't honestly think he is truly the petulant child that he's come accross as. His behaviour is better-explained as a calculated rather than knee-jerk, as it certainly appears that he forced the situation in no small part due to the way he handled it. This explanation has more than a whiff of credibility to it IMHO.....

So I'm more inclined believe explanation #4, but I also have a gut feel that at the end of the day, although McDaniels geuinely did not want this to happen, there is a big part of him that knows Cutler didn't want to play for him and therefore IS happy to see him go...

So if this is true, it could be best for both parties - Cutler s going somewhere where he won't find it quite as easy to put up big numbers, but with a defense he may finally start to get the wins. McD can build the team he wants to build, in his own image with his own people, like every coach should.....

Finally, EVERYTHING depends upon what we do with those draft picks. If we get 3 or 4 pro-bowlers in the early rounds over the next couple of years then it worked out well for both - if not then we got screwed......

dsmoot
04-10-2009, 05:29 AM
It was a decision he forced his own hand into making because of his blundering of it from day 1.

Day 1. When was Day 1. Getting rid of Shanahan. Hiring McDaniels. Deciding that his most key player, acting like a child, was undermining his newly reorganized franchise by his juvenile actions and unwillingness to be involved in a dialogue to rectify the situation. Only time will sort out who was right.

Mile High Mojoe
04-10-2009, 06:39 AM
What a fascinating thread in cross talk and speculation proving nothing and gaining nothing. Having read most of it I come to several conclusions, some of the personalities and temperaments of the individuals posting on this thread are not dealing with what the bottom line is regarding the Cutler trade.

Communication was poor and mishandled on all sides from every person involved in this disaster. Cutlerís behavior in dealing with what happened after Shanahan and Garret got fired is something you might expect from any player having to deal with a new and drastic change in the management and philosophy. As a ďKidĒ and Iíll call him a ďKidĒ, even if he is 25 has behaved like a spoiled, and pampered ďKidĒ which he is.

Whether we want him to or not this kid doesnít have the tools of maturity to deal with pressure and conflict yet. With patience and time it usually comes and it would have for him, Iím positive of it. Itís incredibly easy to expect perfection in Cutler and not in ourselves when it comes to acting or reacting in a cool, collected and mature manner when it hits the fan.

Should Cutler have returned phone calls? Did he act like a crybaby when the Cassel trade broke wind? Should he have kept his mouth shut and not made statements to the media during the negations? The answer is yes and yes thatís what he owns in this, but for the life of me I canít understand why anyone would believe he has sole 100% ownership in this break down of communication.

Bowlen and McD should have had enough knowledge and experience to deal with young players like Cutler that have character defects and fragile egos and not leave him twisting in the wind, not even for a day but they did. They are supposed to be the ďAdultsĒ here not Cutler. Itís clear no matter what you believe or donít believe that trust was lost and once it was that fueled the fire of Cutlers discontent and insecurity.

No matter whatís been said or whatís been reported I donít give a damn, what happened here is a quality QB got tossed because of Coach who didnít know how to communicate and an Owner who did come to the dance to late.

I agree with Woody and the others on the board that have said this will set us back a minimum of 2 years and probably 3, maybe 5, high draft picks on D or not. I canít stand the draft geeks who say that all these picks make it for gone conclusion that the Broncos will return to winning more football games than losing them. Expect sub .500 records in McDís first 2 years and in the 3rd if even if he can get to 9-7 by that time Bowlen and the fans will have send him down he road.

This is biggest bungle in Broncos history and patting McD on the fanny and saying heís okay and itíll be alright is BS. Heís already lost the team and many of the fans and he hasnít even coached a game yet. Bowlen has been a great owner but nothing that happened with this Cutler trade was great it was tragic. We lost, the Bears won and now weíve got 2 scrubs for QBís, the worst D in the NFL, Marshall Fíd up and no real clear starting RB going into the 2009 season.

Had Cutler stayed all this crap would have been forgotten by the end of September. Instead, now, we more than likely will suffer for years without a quality QB. Warts and all Cutler was the best thing the Broncos had going for them whether he was a immature crybaby or not.

summerdenver
04-10-2009, 06:55 AM
then Pat says that meeting didn't happen. No wonder Jay didn't want to take the guy's phone calls anymore. How can he believe anything he had to say?



Did Pat realy call Jay directly? I thought the reports were that Pat told Xanders to tell cook that Jay should call back or something like that ....

Beantown Bronco
04-10-2009, 07:30 AM
Did Pat realy call Jay directly? I thought the reports were that Pat told Xanders to tell cook that Jay should call back or something like that ....

TJ is talking about the initial call at the time Shanny was let go. Bowlen admitted in his "firing Shanny" press conference that he spoke with Jay and went into detail about it. Then, a few weeks later, when questioned about it, Bowlen all of a sudden had no recollection of the conversation and claimed it never happened......even though there were numerous quotes and they have him on tape.

Circle Orange
04-10-2009, 09:02 AM
I'm not crazy about Woody's silly wordplay, but I've always liked the old dude.

Woody = GeezeBag of unecessary information.

Atwater His Ass
04-10-2009, 08:50 PM
Day 1. When was Day 1. Getting rid of Shanahan. Hiring McDaniels. Deciding that his most key player, acting like a child, was undermining his newly reorganized franchise by his juvenile actions and unwillingness to be involved in a dialogue to rectify the situation. Only time will sort out who was right.

Day 1 was internal to the organization when the first calls came in about Cutler's availability.

Are you ignorant as to the responsibilities of people in charge, you know, that run this franchise?

This was botched way before joe blows like you and me were talking about it on a message board.

Popps
04-10-2009, 11:34 PM
Hey the Titanic wasn't sinkable so I'm sure people held on to that to the very end too.

The "Titanic?"

Please.

But, you're free to jump off if the ship is going down. Don't let me stop you.

SoCalBronco
04-10-2009, 11:35 PM
Good for Woody. It's about time he wrote something halfway decent.

Popps
04-10-2009, 11:41 PM
I wonder how Jay's Booze n' Beetus combo is going to work for him in Chicago.
Speculation is that he kept up a pretty regular drinking habit in Denver, even after diagnosis.

If you haven't been to Chicago, there are few bigger party-cities in the U.S..

Should be yet another interesting side-bar to watch in this whole thing. (No pun intended.)

dsmoot
04-11-2009, 07:06 AM
Day 1 was internal to the organization when the first calls came in about Cutler's availability.

Are you ignorant as to the responsibilities of people in charge, you know, that run this franchise?

This was botched way before joe blows like you and me were talking about it on a message board.

Now that I understand your perspective. Yes, a mistake in communication was made by the Bronco organization but not a mistake in listening to offers from other teams. This was not a relationship killer. The Broncos were truthful in following conversations. Everyone is available for a price. It is a fact of playing in the NFL. Jay took this whole situation to another level simply by a lack of maturity that HE might be somehow DIFFERENT than any other player. I absolutely believe the Broncos tried to reach out to him after your Day 1 botching.

I can understand Jay's anger. I cannot understand his persistent behavior following the initial sit down with McDaniels and Xanders. It was lacking in the maturity needed to lead an NFL team. That behavior was and should have been a HUGE red flag to this organization. Ultimately, the Broncos were forced to go forward by taking one step backwards.

elsid13
04-11-2009, 07:42 AM
This becoming a joke. People are throwing **** at the wall to justify that Cutler was bad player.

Let look at some of the general statements folks are making around here

Cutler isn't a leader ~ We have numerous media reports of direct quotes from teammates saying that Jay was strong leader, and players like how he handle himself on the field. Less then a month ago Boss Bailey stated that the team loved Cutler and wanted him as their QB.

Cutler was INT machine in the red zone. ~ He threw 17 TD and 4 INT in opposite red zone (http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/situationalstats?id=CUT288111)

Cutler isn't a top QB in the NFL ~ When I asked Raiders cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6367) on Thursday about Cutler, whom he calls a buddy, he told me: "He was arguably the top QB in the [AFC] West, so I'm not upset to see him leave. He should bring success to the Bears. [He's a] top eight QB." (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/04/03/cutler/)

Cutler gone, and it's time to move on. But say Cutler isn't a great talent is a joke

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 08:34 AM
Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

It doesn't address whether McDaniels wanted to replace Cutler.

It doesn't explain why there was no official response from the organization when the news broke.

There was an official response saying they weren't going to trade Jay and weren't interested in trading Jay within hours of the news breaking.

Atwater His Ass
04-11-2009, 08:40 AM
Now that I understand your perspective. Yes, a mistake in communication was made by the Bronco organization but not a mistake in listening to offers from other teams. This was not a relationship killer. The Broncos were truthful in following conversations. Everyone is available for a price. It is a fact of playing in the NFL. Jay took this whole situation to another level simply by a lack of maturity that HE might be somehow DIFFERENT than any other player. I absolutely believe the Broncos tried to reach out to him after your Day 1 botching.

I can understand Jay's anger. I cannot understand his persistent behavior following the initial sit down with McDaniels and Xanders. It was lacking in the maturity needed to lead an NFL team. That behavior was and should have been a HUGE red flag to this organization. Ultimately, the Broncos were forced to go forward by taking one step backwards.

If you've followed my opinon on the matter, I have always maintained that the team did absolutely nothing wrong by listening to the offers, obviously. The problem is how they handled it after that and, more importantly, when it became public. McD's short 32 years became very apparant at that point as he didn't know how to handle this and it eventually lead to the trade of Cutler.

The person I blame most about this is Bowlen. He's not a greenhorn. He's been thorugh this before and should have stepped in and fixed this problem right away. Instead he stood on the sidelines and let our QB get away.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 08:42 AM
It is also about fleecing other teams in draft day trades, which NE has done nicely for years (trading this years picks for next years picks for example)

I just don't remember them moving their better players for draft picks.

Seems like there's a lot of things you don't remember too well.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 08:56 AM
Yes, I might've overstated it a bit ... but communication is never wrong, and Angelo did say he was all set to pull the offer.

If you wanna make 'em sweat, tell them you have another team bidding and it might be a few hours, or maybe tomorrow. Josh is so inexperienced, and with Goodman and Cutler gone and his fingerprints all over the place, I simply cannot and will not give him the benefit of the doubt. Not yet. After all this carnage, he must earn me back ;D

You are so full of baloney. Angelo never said that. Can you ever maybe get your facts straight?

Hulamau
04-11-2009, 09:20 AM
.......
No matter whatís been said or whatís been reported I donít give a damn, what happened here is a quality QB got tossed because of Coach who didnít know how to communicate and an Owner who did come to the dance to late.

I agree with Woody and the others on the board that have said this will set us back a minimum of 2 years and probably 3, maybe 5, high draft picks on D or not. I canít stand the draft geeks who say that all these picks make it for gone conclusion that the Broncos will return to winning more football games than losing them. Expect sub .500 records in McDís first 2 years and in the 3rd if even if he can get to 9-7 by that time Bowlen and the fans will have send him down he road.

This is biggest bungle in Broncos history and patting McD on the fanny and saying heís okay and itíll be alright is BS. Heís already lost the team and many of the fans and he hasnít even coached a game yet. Bowlen has been a great owner but nothing that happened with this Cutler trade was great it was tragic. We lost, the Bears won and now weíve got 2 scrubs for QBís, the worst D in the NFL, Marshall Fíd up and no real clear starting RB going into the 2009 season.

Had Cutler stayed all this crap would have been forgotten by the end of September. Instead, now, we more than likely will suffer for years without a quality QB. Warts and all Cutler was the best thing the Broncos had going for them whether he was a immature crybaby or not.


That violin music for Baby Jay just chokes me up. Its over dude!

And this idea of setting us back 5 years that you share with Brainless Woody is pure BS.

There is just as good a chance, if not more, that Jay would not have been the guy in this system had he stayed and his immaturity, arrogance and petulance could well have fractured the team had he stayed and had some real blowups with McD during the season over ignoring McD's advice and gunslinging INTs in the red-zone and getting called on the carpet for not sticking with the plan in front of the team by McD. That scenario may be even more likely than the one where he would have fit right in and played well here without the couple extra guys desperately needed on D line that we can now fill with these extra picks and a decent QB who is 100% on board the train.

Like John Lynch intimated, Shanny let Cun*tler get away with a lot of crap that never would fly with McD. I doubt Jay would have done well with that kind of coaching, particularly after this little 'misunderstanding' got his titties in a twister.

In any event, its over, Cry Baby got what he wanted ... and may yet get what he deserves ... when he discovers playing in the windy city with an aging D that isn't what it used to behind a porous, crappy O-line with S*** for brains WRs and all within Ron Turner and Lovely Smith's ultra-cautious and uninspiring offense isn't quite what he had in mind when he was thinking the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence!

At this point, I could care less what happens to Cun*ler. If he sinks or swims in Chicago is only of passing interest if, and when, we meet them in the SB anytime soon.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 09:27 AM
. . . . . .Warts and all Cutler was the best thing the Broncos had going for them whether he was a immature crybaby or not.

I don't see how an immature crybaby QB with warts is the best thing going for the team. Doesn't make sense.

colonelbeef
04-11-2009, 09:49 AM
What a fascinating thread in cross talk and speculation proving nothing and gaining nothing. Having read most of it I come to several conclusions, some of the personalities and temperaments of the individuals posting on this thread are not dealing with what the bottom line is regarding the Cutler trade.

Communication was poor and mishandled on all sides from every person involved in this disaster. Cutlerís behavior in dealing with what happened after Shanahan and Garret got fired is something you might expect from any player having to deal with a new and drastic change in the management and philosophy. As a ďKidĒ and Iíll call him a ďKidĒ, even if he is 25 has behaved like a spoiled, and pampered ďKidĒ which he is.

Whether we want him to or not this kid doesnít have the tools of maturity to deal with pressure and conflict yet. With patience and time it usually comes and it would have for him, Iím positive of it. Itís incredibly easy to expect perfection in Cutler and not in ourselves when it comes to acting or reacting in a cool, collected and mature manner when it hits the fan.

Should Cutler have returned phone calls? Did he act like a crybaby when the Cassel trade broke wind? Should he have kept his mouth shut and not made statements to the media during the negations? The answer is yes and yes thatís what he owns in this, but for the life of me I canít understand why anyone would believe he has sole 100% ownership in this break down of communication.

Bowlen and McD should have had enough knowledge and experience to deal with young players like Cutler that have character defects and fragile egos and not leave him twisting in the wind, not even for a day but they did. They are supposed to be the ďAdultsĒ here not Cutler. Itís clear no matter what you believe or donít believe that trust was lost and once it was that fueled the fire of Cutlers discontent and insecurity.

No matter whatís been said or whatís been reported I donít give a damn, what happened here is a quality QB got tossed because of Coach who didnít know how to communicate and an Owner who did come to the dance to late.

I agree with Woody and the others on the board that have said this will set us back a minimum of 2 years and probably 3, maybe 5, high draft picks on D or not. I canít stand the draft geeks who say that all these picks make it for gone conclusion that the Broncos will return to winning more football games than losing them. Expect sub .500 records in McDís first 2 years and in the 3rd if even if he can get to 9-7 by that time Bowlen and the fans will have send him down he road.

This is biggest bungle in Broncos history and patting McD on the fanny and saying heís okay and itíll be alright is BS. Heís already lost the team and many of the fans and he hasnít even coached a game yet. Bowlen has been a great owner but nothing that happened with this Cutler trade was great it was tragic. We lost, the Bears won and now weíve got 2 scrubs for QBís, the worst D in the NFL, Marshall Fíd up and no real clear starting RB going into the 2009 season.

Had Cutler stayed all this crap would have been forgotten by the end of September. Instead, now, we more than likely will suffer for years without a quality QB. Warts and all Cutler was the best thing the Broncos had going for them whether he was a immature crybaby or not.

Quality post, good to see logic still exists on the mane

colonelbeef
04-11-2009, 09:51 AM
I don't see how an immature crybaby QB with warts is the best thing going for the team. Doesn't make sense.

You talking about Elway again? Sure sounds like 83 to me all over again. Is this Baltimore?

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 10:10 AM
If you've followed my opinon on the matter, I have always maintained that the team did absolutely nothing wrong by listening to the offers, obviously. The problem is how they handled it after that and, more importantly, when it became public. McD's short 32 years became very apparant at that point as he didn't know how to handle this and it eventually lead to the trade of Cutler.

The person I blame most about this is Bowlen. He's not a greenhorn. He's been thorugh this before and should have stepped in and fixed this problem right away. Instead he stood on the sidelines and let our QB get away.

Sure seems like Bowlen tried to fix the problem, but the QB wasn't interested in resolving the problem.

Broncos4tw
04-11-2009, 10:29 AM
If they wanted it fixed, they could have fixed it. They bungled it from the start. It's done now though, spilled milk and all that... doesn't change a thing.

But we'll see around Nov if folks are singing the same tune about (snicker) Orton. I hope he proves folks wrong and he really DID just need a solid coach and a good line and a different philosophy. But his skillset says AVERAGE in every way. His vision, arm strength, scrambling ability (i.e. lack thereof), and so on. He may be a 'smart' player, but that hardly makes him a good one.

I wish everyone would just get off of Jay's jock, and also stop kissing McDs and Orton's asses, they've not done ANYTHING for this team yet. I'll root for them on game day, but I'm not going to blow sunshine up their butts until they can prove they can do something here, in Denver.

Atwater His Ass
04-11-2009, 06:14 PM
Sure seems like Bowlen tried to fix the problem, but the QB wasn't interested in resolving the problem.

Too little too late after Bowlen finally decided to step in. And when he did, he made it worse.

Like I said. Bowlen should have handled this thing from the get go and none of us should have ever learned about it until way after the fact. Then we'd all be laughing at how ****ed it would have been to trade Cutler just like everyone here thought we was a top 3 QB last year, but now that his jersey has changed, he's horrible.

Ya, real strong football minds we have here on the mane.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 07:27 PM
Too little too late after Bowlen finally decided to step in. And when he did, he made it worse.

Like I said. Bowlen should have handled this thing from the get go and none of us should have ever learned about it until way after the fact. Then we'd all be laughing at how ****ed it would have been to trade Cutler just like everyone here thought we was a top 3 QB last year, but now that his jersey has changed, he's horrible.

Ya, real strong football minds we have here on the mane.

Everyone didn't think Jay was a top 3 QB last year.

Atwater His Ass
04-11-2009, 08:19 PM
Wether you did or not is pretty irrelevant. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Circle Orange
04-11-2009, 08:52 PM
I dunno, but the fact Jay didn't want to be in Denver had a lot to do with it. So what's the point of all this? Once a player decides he doesn't want to be somewhere, who cares about what "might have happened?" Just sayin'. :stuck: