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Kaylore
04-07-2009, 10:45 AM
I think I understand at least one reason (among many) why people are upset to see Shanahan go and so angry about McDaniels. I think part of it is that the team will not look like the Broncos we've come to know. Shanahan's system, for all its recent failures, still brought the team it's first championships and have become fixtures of what Denver is for a long time. It's incredibly familiar, and not it's gone.

This means the good and bad things that came with the old regime will be gone as well. We'll probably lose the dominating rushing attack, the trickery and mis-direction, and the ability to beat the Patriots at will. I also think the look and feel of the team will be completely different. Obviously losing Cutler only exacerbates that change. Think about all the things that are going to be different.


There will be much less zone scheme. The sliding offensive line that we're so used to will be gone.
The roll-out will probably be completely removed. Sprint right option is almost an NFL icon play. Probably won't see too much of that.
A 3-4 defense that puts a premium on size. Gone will be the "speedy" linebackers in replacement of guys who large and play physically. We last saw this under Reeves.


That's just a few things off the top of my head. I predict that some fans will realize they weren't in love with the Broncos, but they were in love with Mike Shanahan's Broncos. His style, team and organization are all gone. That will estrange some fans.

This year will be tough. Parcells and his deciples' teams rarely look good their first year as they flesh out the bad. In fact a lot of teams have to go through that when they overhaul the system. The Cutler fiasco will exacerbate things. I think that will be hard for a lot of people. I think the team not looking the same as before will be harder for people. I expect a lot of "we're a crappy version of the Patriots" comments.

Really though, it hasn't been the Shanahan Broncos since Kubiak left. You watch a Texans game today and it's totally our system. When Kubiak left and Shanahan foolishly fired Larry Coyer we sank into mediocrity. For all the good we had, the recent history wasn't good: Worst home loss in almost fifty years. A sub .500 home record. We used to dominate at home! After the first few games, we had 17 two minute drives and ultimately produced a field goal. We had thirty offensive turnovers which is second worse in the league. For all our yardage, we finished 16th in scoring. We were worst in the league in starting field position. Our field goal kicker was missing extra points. How long have our special teams been terrible? The idea that we only needed to fix the defense is bogus.

This year will not be pretty. It's going to be hard, but I think this team will be better as the season goes on. If we can find some good talent in the draft, I think the team will show more resolve than we've seen in three years at least. I don't think you'll see us get lit up at home like we've been, or embarrassed nationally. I think the team will have a lot of character.

Be prepared for things to look foreign. It will be weird, maybe even awkward and be an adjustment. But I think it will be a necessary move in the right direction. In time we can fall in love with the Broncos all over again. :)

lex
04-07-2009, 10:53 AM
Nice, another "Im a real fan and youre not" thread.

Broncos4tw
04-07-2009, 10:55 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0

ScottXray
04-07-2009, 10:58 AM
I think I understand at least one reason (among many) why people are upset to see Shanahan go and so angry about McDaniels. I think part of it is that the team will not look like the Broncos we've come to know. Shanahan's system, for all its recent failures, still brought the team it's first championships and have become fixtures of what Denver is for a long time. It's incredibly familiar, and not it's gone.

This means the good and bad things that came with the old regime will be gone as well. We'll probably lose the dominating rushing attack, the trickery and mis-direction, and the ability to beat the Patriots at will. I also think the look and feel of the team will be completely different. Obviously losing Cutler only exacerbates that change. Think about all the things that are going to be different.


There will be much less zone scheme. The sliding offensive line that we're so used to will be gone.
The roll-out will probably be completely removed. Sprint right option is almost an NFL icon play. Probably won't see too much of that.
A 3-4 defense that puts a premium on size. Gone will be the "speedy" linebackers in replacement of guys who large and play physically. We last saw this under Reeves.


That's just a few things off the top of my head. I predict that some fans will realize they weren't in love with the Broncos, but they were in love with Mike Shanahan's Broncos. His style, team and organization are all gone. That will estrange some fans.

This year will be tough. Parcells and his deciples' teams rarely look good their first year as they flesh out the bad. In fact a lot of teams have to go through that when they overhaul the system. The Cutler fiasco will exacerbate things. I think that will be hard for a lot of people. I think the team not looking the same as before will be harder for people. I expect a lot of "we're a crappy version of the Patriots" comments.

Really though, it hasn't been the Shanahan Broncos since Kubiak left. You watch a Texans game today and it's totally our system. When Kubiak left and Shanahan foolishly fired Larry Coyer we sank into mediocrity. For all the good we had, the recent history wasn't good: Worst home loss in almost fifty years. A sub .500 home record. We used to dominate at home! After the first few games, we had 17 two minute drives and ultimately produced a field goal. We had thirty offensive turnovers which is second worse in the league. For all our yardage, we finished 16th in scoring. We were worst in the league in starting field position. Our field goal kicker was missing extra points. How long have our special teams been terrible? The idea that we only needed to fix the defense is bogus.

This year will not be pretty. It's going to be hard, but I think this team will be better as the season goes on. If we can find some good talent in the draft, I think the team will show more resolve than we've seen in three years at least. I don't think you'll see us get lit up at home like we've been, or embarrassed nationally. I think the team will have a lot of character.

Be prepared for things to look foreign. It will be weird, maybe even awkward and be an adjustment. But I think it will be a necessary move in the right direction. In time we can fall in love with the Broncos all over again. :)

Good Post K! A lot of people fall into the categories you mentioned...Shanahans system fans, vs Just Bronco fans .

Shanahan brought one thing....consistancy..... and people aren't comfortable with CHANGE. It can be scary. And Yes, this year is going to be tough....maybe even a few years of that.....But so were the last 2 years. Or the last 10 if you want to go back that far.

It was not enjoyable watching a 3 game lead evaporate in the last 3 games of the year. Or the blow out losses that were becoming more and more common.

So change, scary as it is, might just be a good thing, since without it, the
type of Bronco football we were recieving was becoming less and less tasty.

As they say, you have to break some eggs to make mayonaise.

I'm looking forward to a NEW Bronco team that doesn't fit the mold of the old one. It definitely will be interesting to not KNOW what the coach is thinking .

gyldenlove
04-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Good take.

Offensively I think we will move to being largely a single-back formation team. With Shanahan in charge we used to be one of the few teams who would run fullbacks on almost all non-shotgun plays, with the exception of when our tailback got depleted with injuries. I think we will see a lot of playing one TE as effectively a 6th offensive lineman who will be responsible for picking up blitzes coming wide as well as defensive ends and outside linebackers trying to go wide on our tackle. This will free up the RB to be more of an outlet receiver and less of an emergency blocker.
We will certianly see more 3 WR sets than we are used to and more shotgun formations than we are used to. I also believe that if Orton/Simms can master it we will see quite a bit of no-huddle formations, simply because we can create some mismatches with some of the personnel we have like Hillis, Marshall and Scheffler and I think we will see some attempts at keeping defenses in mismatches once we achieve that.
Our rush offense I believe will be a mix of the one-cut running we used under Shanahan where the runningback is responsible for finding the hole and a more gap oriented blocking scheme where the run is designed to go to a specific gap that should be opened up by the blocking. The stretch play will still feature, actually a lot of teams use it to some degree as it is very effective when you have an offensive lineman who bounce to the outside and seal off the linebacker.

I agree that the bootleg rollout will be gone, obviously we don't have a QB anymore who would excel at running the rollout and also because Mcdaniels wants the tackles to keep the pocket in tact instead of worrying about the QB taking off.

On defense size is definitely going to be in. I expect we will feature a defensive line with at least 3 guys who are above 300 lbs. I also expect at least 2 LBs who are above 255 lbs. The key is versatility and ingelligence, I think we will see a lot of our linebackers being asked to do a lot of things and have a lot of responsibility. I expect we will be somewhat vanilla when it comes to what we do with the secondary, I expect some quite basic zone schemes and some man coverage with 2 safeties deep.

On defense I would expect it to take some time to become profitient, I honestly don't expect to us to improve overall on defense a lot this year, which is why I also don't see us winning a whole lot of games. Unless someone steps up the only DL we have that should play regularly is Marcus Thomas and that is not enough.

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Very good points Kaylore. As I've said many times on this board, many posters are simply scared of this massive change. Even though Shanny's system produced one playoff win without Elway, many posters would rather sit comfortably mediocre, than try something new. This is human nature.

People need to understand there is more than one way to win in the NFL. If you don't "get it" I feel sorry for you.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:00 AM
I think for fans who have been rooting for the team since the 70s it will be a lot easier. We've already seen this team go through pretty drastic changes before and usually it turned out okay. When I first started rooting for the Broncos we had Morton (Orton? Anybody notice this?) and a dominating defense. Truth be told, I've always wanted to go back to that. Maybe that's why I don't feel so bad about these changes, but instead, more excited. Shanahan's failure to put on D on the field was really starting to grate on my nerves. I'm optimistic. I'm rooting for the return of the Orange Crush. Gimme that and I don't care which Morton/Orton hears a who at QB. ;D

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Nice, another "Im a real fan and youre not" thread.

You could always start an "I'm an a-hole and you're not" thread, Turdman.

Play2win
04-07-2009, 11:00 AM
I think next year we will start out weak, but finish strong down the stretch...

I would much rather have that, than start strong and finish weak (sound familiar?)

All in all, The Future's so bright, I gotta wear shades... 8')

NECKBEARD might be just the what the doctor ordered... decision making and accuracy...

telluride
04-07-2009, 11:02 AM
Perhaps these Broncos can manage to field a decent defense. Perhaps these Broncos can manage to not to fade in the second half of every game, and the second half of every season. Perhaps these Broncos can manage to be prepared for every game. Perhaps these Broncos can manage to play special teams. Perhaps these Broncos can manage to have consistent drafts. Perhaps these Broncos can manage to go better than .500 over the next three years. Perhaps these Broncos can manage win more than one playoff game in the next decade.

Broncos4tw
04-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Neckbeard is average. He will play like an average QB. He does not possess franchise QB natural talent. He will only be as soon as the line (which thankfully should be solid), the RB (which I am worried about), our TE (oops looks like we might dump him too), and so on.

Saying he is accurate is saying Griese was accurate. Which was very true.. for all those 3 to 5 yard passes. Look where that got us.

no-pseudo-fan
04-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Great post.

I have been one who has been screaming for a tougher D. I miss the hardnose players (K Meck, Atwater, D Smith) of my youth. I will miss Shanahan, but I understand that he needed to go.

I am an optimist. I think that we will be better than most people think. I think this might even just be a sidestep year (7-9, 8-8 or 9-7), mainly because the schedule and the defense.

Now I think we can pull a Dolphins year out, if we are lucky......really lucky. I watched them win, because the wife is a dolphin fan, and it was no accident. They didn't turn the ball over and they created turnovers. If we can do that, we can win 2 or 3 more games next season.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Great post.

I have been one who has been screaming for a tougher D. I miss the hardnose players (K Meck, Atwater, D Smith) of my youth. I will miss Shanahan, but I understand that he needed to go.

I am an optimist. I think that we will be better than most people think. I think this might even just be a sidestep year (7-9, 8-8 or 9-7), mainly because the schedule and the defense.

Now I think we can pull a Dolphins year out, if we are lucky......really lucky. I watched them win, because the wife is a dolphin fan, and it was no accident. They didn't turn the ball over and they created turnovers. If we can do that, we can win 2 or 3 more games next season.

But wait until they see their schedule this year compared to last. Ouch. ;D

Play2win
04-07-2009, 11:09 AM
I think for fans who have been rooting for the team since the 70s it will be a lot easier. We've already seen this team go through pretty drastic changes before and usually it turned out okay. When I first started rooting for the Broncos we had Morton (Orton? Anybody notice this?) and a dominating defense. Truth be told, I've always wanted to go back to that. Maybe that's why I don't feel so bad about these changes, but instead, more excited. Shanahan's failure to put on D on the field was really starting to grate on my nerves. I'm optimistic. I'm rooting for the return of the Orange Crush. Gimme that and I don't care which Morton/Orton hears a who at QB. ;D

I wonder if Kyle's middle name is something like "Michael" or "Malcolm" or "Mackenzie"...

Then he would be Kyle M. ORTON...

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:15 AM
I wonder if Kyle's middle name is something like "Michael" or "Malcolm" or "Mackenzie"...

Then he would be Kyle M. ORTON...

Wouldn't it be weird if Orton was the QB, we put together a really good 3-4 D, make it back to the SB, and face the Cowboys? ;D

RunSilentRunDeep
04-07-2009, 11:17 AM
The vast majority of fans root for laundry. I do. I've cheered for the Broncos since Red Miller. I don't fans our going to be bother because a 5-yard run came with a pulling guard instead of a ZBS. The league is evolving and Shanny's schemes were no longer ahead of the curve.

Play2win
04-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Wouldn't it be weird if Orton was the QB, we put together a really good 3-4 D, make it back to the SB, and face the Cowboys? ;D

Yeah, but we kicked their arses this time...

Now thats more like a NFL "Storybook ending" that I can believe in...

Pseudofool
04-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Thoughtful stuff. I can't believe some resident turds could take this thread as inflammatory.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:21 AM
Yeah, but we kicked their arses this time...

Now thats more like a NFL "Storybook ending" that I can believe in...

I can still feel the hurt from that one. That was a shocker at the time. It would sure be nice to avenge that one. :thumbs:

24champ
04-07-2009, 11:21 AM
That's just a few things off the top of my head. I predict that some fans will realize they weren't in love with the Broncos, but they were in love with Mike Shanahan's Broncos. His style, team and organization are all gone. That will estrange some fans.


I was a Bronco fan before the Shanahan era began, and will be after the McDaniels era is over. I just don't agree with the current regimes decisions...as well as Pat Bowlen's. I really hope we draft two defensive studs in the first round and not some overrated bust named Sanchez. It wouldn't surprise me if they do the latter, it would be par for the course actually.

Keep in mind I was all for McDaniels coming here. One of seven people on this board to vote for McDaniels to be the new coach in a poll while everyone else was off to suck "spags" ****. I think McDaniels will bring a good attitude but hope his decision making skills are better on the field than off it.

baja
04-07-2009, 11:30 AM
Nice, another "Im a real fan and youre not" thread.

You have miss-spelled your user name it should be Les

You remind me of this guy;


http://thumbnails.hulu.com/4/40/10377_512x288_manicured__ht6nmvSsqUe+F5Yap5rSSg.jp g

SonOfLe-loLang
04-07-2009, 11:30 AM
Neckbeard is average. He will play like an average QB. He does not possess franchise QB natural talent. He will only be as soon as the line (which thankfully should be solid), the RB (which I am worried about), our TE (oops looks like we might dump him too), and so on.

Saying he is accurate is saying Griese was accurate. Which was very true.. for all those 3 to 5 yard passes. Look where that got us.

While Orton is not cutler, he doesnt need a huge arm to run the McD offense (though his arm is stronger than you think). My guess is you havent seen Orton play much. Enough with this "franchise QB natural talent." Tom Brady probably doesnt have that either...otherwise he woulda been drafted in the first

19Morton77
04-07-2009, 11:37 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0

if that means, superbowl appearances and wins, younger studs and proven veterans and a stellar defense, then sign me up! What good is a fun and exciting offense if after 3 hours we watched our team lose and be bummed out until the next game in 7 days. This board can have the "Yes we lost but how about Royal and Marshall's game", but it gets old. A new look Broncos can mean an actual return to the glory days. Dont fret. This is exciting times with many of our stars still on offense.

Traveler
04-07-2009, 11:42 AM
I think for fans who have been rooting for the team since the 70s it will be a lot easier. We've already seen this team go through pretty drastic changes before and usually it turned out okay. When I first started rooting for the Broncos we had Morton (Orton? Anybody notice this?) and a dominating defense. Truth be told, I've always wanted to go back to that. Maybe that's why I don't feel so bad about these changes, but instead, more excited. Shanahan's failure to put on D on the field was really starting to grate on my nerves. I'm optimistic. I'm rooting for the return of the Orange Crush. Gimme that and I don't care which Morton/Orton hears a who at QB. ;D

I guess that's why I'm not upset with Shanahan getting fired too.
Anyone remember the days when the Raiders used to come to town and the team was scared to death? Then, Oakland would promptly wax our ass.

So, if we are down for a little while, it not a big deal if you were around or followed the team since the early 70's.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-07-2009, 11:43 AM
I guess that's why I'm not upset with Shanahan getting fired too.
Anyone remember the days when the Raiders used to come to town and the team was scared to death? Then, Oakland would promptly wax our ass.

So, if we are down for a little while, it not a big deal if you were around or followed the team since the early 70's.

They even did that in the 90;s...remember Hoss and his group of track star receivers? They'd murder us

Bronx33
04-07-2009, 11:44 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0

Great! another post saying NE Patriots, version 2.0.

Bronx33
04-07-2009, 11:47 AM
Neckbeard is average. He will play like an average QB. He does not possess franchise QB natural talent. He will only be as soon as the line (which thankfully should be solid), the RB (which I am worried about), our TE (oops looks like we might dump him too), and so on.

Saying he is accurate is saying Griese was accurate. Which was very true.. for all those 3 to 5 yard passes. Look where that got us.


New team and a new beginning anything can happen mr negative you have no clue what's going to happen or how orton is going to respond to a new team with kickass receivers ( something he didn't have before).

Crushaholic
04-07-2009, 12:00 PM
I would wait and see before we call this year a failure. The last three years have already been failures...

fontaine
04-07-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm not concerned about change. Hell, we had a new defense, new defensive coaches every two years under Shanahan.

I just realize that most of the 8-8 ball clubs in this league are in a holding pattern of mediocrity until they find and groom that franchise QB. Where were the Pats without Brady, where was that awesome Pittsburgh D with Kordell Stewart before Roethlisburger etc etc?

The NFL playoff/superbowl scene is dominated by guys like Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning etc etc. That is the norm. We had a guy who was fast developing into that kind of QB and for whatever reasons, we've lost that. Kinda bummed out about that because sooner or later we're going to go right back to this inevitable fact that we'll need a franchise type QB that can deliver in the playoffs.

I have no doubt that we can make it work with Orton, I'm just not sold that he's the guy that going to take this franchise were it needs to be in two/three years. And if he doesn't then it's right back to square one.......

baja
04-07-2009, 12:04 PM
I think for fans who have been rooting for the team since the 70s it will be a lot easier. We've already seen this team go through pretty drastic changes before and usually it turned out okay. When I first started rooting for the Broncos we had Morton (Orton? Anybody notice this?) and a dominating defense. Truth be told, I've always wanted to go back to that. Maybe that's why I don't feel so bad about these changes, but instead, more excited. Shanahan's failure to put on D on the field was really starting to grate on my nerves. I'm optimistic. I'm rooting for the return of the Orange Crush. Gimme that and I don't care which Morton/Orton hears a who at QB. ;D

And Orton's dad is named Craig is that a sign or what???????

orangemonkey
04-07-2009, 12:11 PM
This is a great post Kaylore. Not trying to sway your read in either direction, but this is exactly the reason I lean towards the Cutler apologists and completely disagree with a lot of the folks on this board. I feel like Bowlen and McD were too quick to kill any semblance of Broncos culture, a culture defined by a prolific Walsh/Shanahan West Coast style offense. Last year was the first year really that these young cats played together - Cutler, Clady, Marshal, Royal, Sheffler, etc. Yes we struggled to score points, but there is no arguing how fun and exciting this group was to watch. I felt the scoring would improve in their sophomore effort and with a better defense, this team would dominate again.

No matter who comes into coach the Steelers, they don't F with the defensive culture. That culture is untouchable.

We're basically starting from scratch to build a Patriots system and culture. I despise the Patriots. Some folks think wins and Super bowls when they think of the Patriots. I think cheaters, I think of our domination over New England the past 10 years. Oh well - I bleed broncos orange and am hopeful we can fix this.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:12 PM
I was a Bronco fan before the Shanahan era began, and will be after the McDaniels era is over. I just don't agree with the current regimes decisions...as well as Pat Bowlen's. I really hope we draft two defensive studs in the first round and not some overrated bust named Sanchez. It wouldn't surprise me if they do the latter, it would be par for the course actually.

Keep in mind I was all for McDaniels coming here. One of seven people on this board to vote for McDaniels to be the new coach in a poll while everyone else was off to suck "spags" ****. I think McDaniels will bring a good attitude but hope his decision making skills are better on the field than off it.
You should bump that thread ;D

baja
04-07-2009, 12:18 PM
This is a great post Kaylore. Not trying to sway your read in either direction, but this is exactly the reason I lean towards the Cutler apologists and completely disagree with a lot of the folks on this board. I feel like Bowlen and McD were too quick to kill any semblance of Broncos culture, a culture defined by a prolific Walsh/Shanahan West Coast style offense. Last year was the first year really that these young cats played together - Cutler, Clady, Marshal, Royal, Sheffler, etc. Yes we struggled to score points, but there is no arguing how fun and exciting this group was to watch. I felt the scoring would improve in their sophomore effort and with a better defense, this team would dominate again.

No matter who comes into coach the Steelers, they don't F with the defensive culture. That culture is untouchable.

We're basically starting from scratch to build a Patriots system and culture. I despise the Patriots. Some folks think wins and Super bowls when they think of the Patriots. I think cheaters, I think of our domination over New England the past 10 years. Oh well - I bleed broncos orange and am hopeful we can fix this.

The name "Orange Crush" mean anything to you?

Northman
04-07-2009, 12:24 PM
Im actually pretty excited to see what happens this year. Seeing a lot of new faces and knowing that its going to be different on both sides of ball is exciting to me. Hopefully, all the moves pay off.

Houshyamama
04-07-2009, 12:28 PM
I think for fans who have been rooting for the team since the 70s it will be a lot easier. We've already seen this team go through pretty drastic changes before and usually it turned out okay. When I first started rooting for the Broncos we had Morton (Orton? Anybody notice this?) and a dominating defense. Truth be told, I've always wanted to go back to that. Maybe that's why I don't feel so bad about these changes, but instead, more excited. Shanahan's failure to put on D on the field was really starting to grate on my nerves. I'm optimistic. I'm rooting for the return of the Orange Crush. Gimme that and I don't care which Morton/Orton hears a who at QB. ;D

Well, you guys have already seen the dinosaurs come and go, so.... ^5

Popps
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Nice breakdown, Kaylore.

I'm most excited to see if we can return some of the intimidation to the Broncos defense. You mentioned the home field advantage and how it's faded... I want to see it back to a point where teams don't want to come play in Denver. We just need to get nasty again.

I think we're going to see a genuine effort to build a better-rounded team. NE made its name by being proficient in all phases, not just having a QB with big numbers or a few star players.

The last successful team we had in Denver (05) was predicated on a well-rounded attack and the ability to (at least occasionally) apply pressure, defensively.

I'm absolutely stoked for the draft , camp, etc. Pre-season is going to be like Christmas in July.

Bronx33
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Im actually pretty excited to see what happens this year. Seeing a lot of new faces and knowing that its going to be different on both sides of ball is exciting to me. Hopefully, all the moves pay off.


Iam pumped too! but it seems some folks have already mailed it in.

orinjkrush
04-07-2009, 12:39 PM
if Trent Dilfer can win a superbowl, almost anybody can.

As long as you have a D.

and the semblance of a running game.

here's hoping that we build a D with some bite to it.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Right now I feel the same about MickyD as I did when Bowlen hired Wade.

Maybe after a TC and PS I will change but I can't be Rah Rah yet until I see wins or the team close to winning.

Hard to get behind a guy who only has 3 years experience as an OC. How do you learn how to run a franchise in 3 years?

c_lazy_r
04-07-2009, 12:48 PM
I'm not concerned about change. Hell, we had a new defense, new defensive coaches every two years under Shanahan.

I just realize that most of the 8-8 ball clubs in this league are in a holding pattern of mediocrity until they find and groom that franchise QB. Where were the Pats without Brady, where was that awesome Pittsburgh D with Kordell Stewart before Roethlisburger etc etc?

The NFL playoff/superbowl scene is dominated by guys like Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning etc etc. That is the norm. We had a guy who was fast developing into that kind of QB and for whatever reasons, we've lost that. Kinda bummed out about that because sooner or later we're going to go right back to this inevitable fact that we'll need a franchise type QB that can deliver in the playoffs.

I have no doubt that we can make it work with Orton, I'm just not sold that he's the guy that going to take this franchise were it needs to be in two/three years. And if he doesn't then it's right back to square one.......


You can't forget that those "franchise" QBs also have it upstairs. It's not just physical skill that makes you great...know what I mean?

IMO, Cutler will never be remembered as a GREAT QB, regardless of his career stats. It really dawned on me last season when the sulking became a common sight when things were going bad. That's when the great ones you mentioned step it up and lead their team. Sometimes to a victory, sometimes to defeat...but they don't whine, sulk, talk ****, pass blame, etc.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 12:51 PM
Well, you guys have already seen the dinosaurs come and go, so.... ^5

When I was young, it was much tougher to go to games. Pterodactyls would fly down and try and steal your beer.

Northman
04-07-2009, 12:52 PM
I feel like Bowlen and McD were too quick to kill any semblance of Broncos culture, a culture defined by a prolific Walsh/Shanahan West Coast style offense. Last year was the first year really that these young cats played together - Cutler, Clady, Marshal, Royal, Sheffler, etc. Yes we struggled to score points, but there is no arguing how fun and exciting this group was to watch. I felt the scoring would improve in their sophomore effort and with a better defense, this team would dominate again.



The problem is Shanahan's offensive scheme was getting stale and predictable. Once teams caught on it was no longer effective as it once was. This team needed a change over to try and mix it up.

orangemonkey
04-07-2009, 12:52 PM
You can't forget that those "franchise" QBs also have it upstairs. It's not just physical skill that makes you great...know what I mean?

IMO, Cutler will never be remembered as a GREAT QB, regardless of his career stats. It really dawned on me last season when the sulking became a common sight when things were going bad. That's when the great ones you mentioned step it up and lead their team. Sometimes to a victory, sometimes to defeat...but they don't whine, sulk, talk ****, pass blame, etc.

Early in his career Manning was a BIG whiner who passed a lot of blame

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 12:53 PM
You can't forget that those "franchise" QBs also have it upstairs. It's not just physical skill that makes you great...know what I mean?

IMO, Cutler will never be remembered as a GREAT QB, regardless of his career stats. It really dawned on me last season when the sulking became a common sight when things were going bad. That's when the great ones you mentioned step it up and lead their team. Sometimes to a victory, sometimes to defeat...but they don't whine, sulk, talk ****, pass blame, etc.

I would have sulked on the sidelines if I watched my Defense getting ass pounded by Buffalo's 2nd or was he 3rd string RB or watched Rivers put up 52 points on my D or being embarrased vs Pats on monday night.

He was pretty happy in the SD, Cleveland, Atlanta games.


I know you Denver locals don't like Crybaby's.

Swedish Extrovert
04-07-2009, 01:06 PM
I think I understand at least one reason (among many) why people are upset to see Shanahan go and so angry about McDaniels. I think part of it is that the team will not look like the Broncos we've come to know. Shanahan's system, for all its recent failures, still brought the team it's first championships and have become fixtures of what Denver is for a long time. It's incredibly familiar, and not it's gone.

This means the good and bad things that came with the old regime will be gone as well. We'll probably lose the dominating rushing attack, the trickery and mis-direction, and the ability to beat the Patriots at will. I also think the look and feel of the team will be completely different. Obviously losing Cutler only exacerbates that change. Think about all the things that are going to be different.


There will be much less zone scheme. The sliding offensive line that we're so used to will be gone.
The roll-out will probably be completely removed. Sprint right option is almost an NFL icon play. Probably won't see too much of that.
A 3-4 defense that puts a premium on size. Gone will be the "speedy" linebackers in replacement of guys who large and play physically. We last saw this under Reeves.


That's just a few things off the top of my head. I predict that some fans will realize they weren't in love with the Broncos, but they were in love with Mike Shanahan's Broncos. His style, team and organization are all gone. That will estrange some fans.

This year will be tough. Parcells and his deciples' teams rarely look good their first year as they flesh out the bad. In fact a lot of teams have to go through that when they overhaul the system. The Cutler fiasco will exacerbate things. I think that will be hard for a lot of people. I think the team not looking the same as before will be harder for people. I expect a lot of "we're a crappy version of the Patriots" comments.

Really though, it hasn't been the Shanahan Broncos since Kubiak left. You watch a Texans game today and it's totally our system. When Kubiak left and Shanahan foolishly fired Larry Coyer we sank into mediocrity. For all the good we had, the recent history wasn't good: Worst home loss in almost fifty years. A sub .500 home record. We used to dominate at home! After the first few games, we had 17 two minute drives and ultimately produced a field goal. We had thirty offensive turnovers which is second worse in the league. For all our yardage, we finished 16th in scoring. We were worst in the league in starting field position. Our field goal kicker was missing extra points. How long have our special teams been terrible? The idea that we only needed to fix the defense is bogus.

This year will not be pretty. It's going to be hard, but I think this team will be better as the season goes on. If we can find some good talent in the draft, I think the team will show more resolve than we've seen in three years at least. I don't think you'll see us get lit up at home like we've been, or embarrassed nationally. I think the team will have a lot of character.

Be prepared for things to look foreign. It will be weird, maybe even awkward and be an adjustment. But I think it will be a necessary move in the right direction. In time we can fall in love with the Broncos all over again. :)

I would take two super bowls and two 2-14 seasons over four .500 seasons any day.

Ambiguous
04-07-2009, 01:07 PM
They're a crappy version of the Patriots.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 01:13 PM
They're a crappy version of the Patriots.

duh _roncos are 180 degrees from the Pats.

We are not competitent enough to wash the Pats jocks.

If anything we should be compared to the Bungles. Not a winning franchise like the Pats.

24champ
04-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Great! another post saying NE Patriots, version 2.0.

They are the Patriots Junior Varsity team.

lex
04-07-2009, 01:15 PM
duh _roncos are 180 degrees from the Pats.

We are not competitent enough to wash the Pats jocks.

If anything we should be compared to the Bungles. Not a winning franchise like the Pats.

Dont you mean _enver?

Swedish Extrovert
04-07-2009, 01:33 PM
:notthissh haters

USMCBladerunner
04-07-2009, 02:26 PM
lex...are you the guy that had the closet Patriot fan list?? If so, how in the world do you get off accusing Kaylore of slinging fandome judgment with this thread?

Kaylore, good post. I'm inclined to agree with you in much of your post. I think if it were Gary Kubiak ripping this team apart, it would feel less like an insult and be less divisive. The Patriots hold a special place of hatred for many NFL fans given their sustained success and their cheating with film. It's a hard pill for many to swallow. Some are gagging on it.

lex
04-07-2009, 02:32 PM
lex...are you the guy that had the closet Patriot fan list?? If so, how in the world do you get off accusing Kaylore of slinging fandome judgment with this thread?

Kaylore, good post. I'm inclined to agree with you in much of your post. I think if it were Gary Kubiak ripping this team apart, it would feel less like an insult and be less divisive. The Patriots hold a special place of hatred for many NFL fans given their sustained success and their cheating with film. It's a hard pill for many to swallow. Some are gagging on it.

Because Im not actually saying that he is a better fan.

USMCBladerunner
04-07-2009, 02:44 PM
Because Im not actually saying that he is a better fan.

Neither is he, so what was the point of your post?

frerottenextelway
04-07-2009, 02:44 PM
They are the 1992 Cleveland Browns.

Kaylore
04-07-2009, 02:53 PM
Neither is he, so what was the point of your post?

A lot of things are over Lex's head. I just accept that he won't get it like other people.

lex
04-07-2009, 03:00 PM
Neither is he, so what was the point of your post?


Yeah he is. I guess you missed it.

ZachKC
04-07-2009, 03:02 PM
Right now I feel the same about MickyD as I did when Bowlen hired Wade.

Maybe after a TC and PS I will change but I can't be Rah Rah yet until I see wins or the team close to winning.

Hard to get behind a guy who only has 3 years experience as an OC. How do you learn how to run a franchise in 3 years?

http://thebrandbuilder.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mike-tomlin.jpg

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 03:13 PM
Does anyone really think Roethlisberger would win on any other team than the stellers?

I don't.

Switch Campbell with Big Ben and the stellers still win. In fact, I see the stellers doing better with a Campbell than with Big Crash.

lex
04-07-2009, 03:24 PM
Does anyone really think Roethlisberger would win on any other team than the stellers?

I don't.

Switch Campbell with Big Ben and the stellers still win. In fact, I see the stellers doing better with a Campbell than with Big Crash.

Someone tried to bake up some comparison between Cutler and Roethlisberger earlier by asking if R'berger loses the last three games...as if R'berger does it all himself...like Pittsburgh only winse because Ben, himself, decides he doesnt want Pittsburgh to lose. Dumb.

BroncsRule
04-07-2009, 03:30 PM
You have miss-spelled your user name it should be Les

You remind me of this guy;


http://thumbnails.hulu.com/4/40/10377_512x288_manicured__ht6nmvSsqUe+F5Yap5rSSg.jp g

That's Arthur "Big Guy" Carlson. Unless you meant to say lex reminds you of Lonnie Anderson.

I think you meant Les Nessman - played by Richard Sanders (who I can't even find a still photo of out there on the Internets).

baja
04-07-2009, 04:02 PM
That's Arthur "Big Guy" Carlson. Unless you meant to say lex reminds you of Lonnie Anderson.

I think you meant Les Nessman - played by Richard Sanders (who I can't even find a still photo of out there on the Internets).

LOL ya I meant les Nessman and your right there is not one photo to be found.

extralife
04-07-2009, 04:19 PM
This is certainly going to be hard for me, yes. Shanny and the Broncos were one and the same for me. It's not just that he's gone--it's that he's been replaced with a man that seems intent on removing all traces of what this team was under Shanahan. I figured we'd hire a defensive guy and the offense would still at least operate under the same princibles we've known.

But you're right, a large chunk of that left with Kubiak anyway.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 04:21 PM
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:XRzn817asFtVbM:http://www.tvacres.com/images/wkrp_les.jpg

broncos-rock
04-07-2009, 04:24 PM
You guys act like its not possible to have a winning season next year. I think anything is possible when the dog butt falcons turned it around and so did Miami in one year.

USMCBladerunner
04-07-2009, 04:30 PM
Yeah he is. I guess you missed it.

No he's not. This thread goes into examining why people are angry, not that they are less of a fan for it. This is empathy, not judgement. Given your need to label those who can rationalize the Broncos actions, I suppose you can't or won't see the difference.

Most, not all, of the folks you think are against you and the Broncos, myself included, aren't emotional ninnies with the opposite opinion of yours. Rather, they are approaching the whole episode with rationale instead of anger and with logic instead of emotionality.

If one were to argue about being a better fan, it wouldn't be a discourse on the effects of change, it would probably start with questioning the motivations of people who have the Broncos logo upside down as their avatar.

Kaylore
04-07-2009, 04:30 PM
Yeah he is. I guess you missed it.

Yeah I didn't write it that way, and the only person who took it that way is you. But we're all crazy and YOU know! I'm convinced you just re-imagine things the way you want and act accordingly.

baja
04-07-2009, 04:33 PM
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:XRzn817asFtVbM:http://www.tvacres.com/images/wkrp_les.jpg

There's Lex.

BroncoLifer
04-07-2009, 04:37 PM
I think you meant Les Nessman - played by Richard Sanders (who I can't even find a still photo of out there on the Internets).

You know about Google, right?

baja
04-07-2009, 04:38 PM
You know about Google, right?

quick go find one using google.

BroncoLifer
04-07-2009, 04:56 PM
quick go find one using google.

Are you serious? There are pages and pages of them. Google "Les Nessman" and hit the Images link.

26,000 post rule.

Los Broncos
04-07-2009, 04:58 PM
What makes a person less of a fan? not know anything about football?

McDman
04-07-2009, 05:03 PM
It would be interesting to know how many of Reeve's players were on the Super Bowl teams. I'm a little too young to remember the Reeve's era, or I just started watching a little later.

DomCasual
04-07-2009, 05:12 PM
Nice, another "Im a real fan and youre not" thread.

You read that whole post, and that's the thing you took from it?

broncobum6162
04-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Great points as always Kaylore. I've been around for 35 years thru the good, the bad and the ugly w/ recent activities and past year definitely fugly. Losing Jay definitely shook me up and made me think about my loyalties to the Broncos, but as the truth came out and the deals were made I've since reached an even keel. You're probably right about the upcoming year(s) I hate to see it since we've been rebuilding going on 3 yrs allready. But if the Wunderkind coach keeps his shi@t together and we draft seriously on defense this year I think brighter days are ahead.

Broncomutt
04-07-2009, 06:00 PM
Lex the fan Nazi!

"Papers please! Hmmm, it says here that your grandmother was 2 parts Viking. Come vit me please! MACH SCHNELL!!"

mhgaffney
04-07-2009, 06:24 PM
I will miss the scrambling QB...

and the roll outs and the throwing back across the field. These were vintage Elway -- a tradition of moves that Shanny tried to keep alive by encouraging similar traits in every QB since # 7

Shanny succeeded to a greater or lesser degree with Plummer and Cutler

Now this repertoire will go the way of the DoDo. McD will not have it in his system.

The scrambling tradition will be missed.

NYBronc
04-07-2009, 09:48 PM
More like Herb Tarlek

<IMG SRC="http://lostinyourinbox.com/resources/Frank_Bonner_on_WKRP.jpg">

gotfredson
04-07-2009, 10:01 PM
Have things gotten this bad? $1.96.....really?

http://www.denverbroncosproshop.com/main_detail.cfm?nProductID=11353&sAuxTitle=History%20of%20the%20Broncos%20DVD

cutthemdown
04-07-2009, 10:06 PM
I will miss the scrambling QB...

and the roll outs and the throwing back across the field. These were vintage Elway -- a tradition of moves that Shanny tried to keep alive by encouraging similar traits in every QB since # 7

Shanny succeeded to a greater or lesser degree with Plummer and Cutler

Now this repertoire will go the way of the DoDo. McD will not have it in his system.

The scrambling tradition will be missed.

you are right in this I think. What Shanny hasn't had qbs doing since Elway left is calling a lot of audibles. I would get upset screaming run it run it, defense is over playing the pass, but rarely would Broncos and Cutler change the play at LOS.

Correct though we will see QB come to LOS, read the defense, adjust the play, drop into the pocket and read defense, go through reads, deliver the ball.

IMO it will be a good thing. Sometimes things get stale and you need a change. As tough as it is this offseason IMO Broncos will be back, and soon.

Hulamau
04-07-2009, 10:53 PM
Good insights Khan, especially about it not being the real Shanny system the last few years in any event. And we haven't had a dominant running game of late either.

Yes, there will be change and adaptations but one thing cures all of this ... winning! We start winning, then it wont take long at all for people to identify with the new Broncos hook, line and sinker. Plus, this offense wont be like the Ravens, it is intricate and exciting and with the talent we have I've no doubt that after some inevitable adjustment period it will put points on the board in satisfying numbers.

In some ways the overall changes are big enough that the impact of losing Cutler and adapting to Orton my be a lot less over all. We wont have a frame of reference for how Cutler might have been in this system. It will be Orton's (of Simms) all the way from the beginning. This year is one of adaptation and adjustment no doubt, and while we could be anything from 5-11 to 11-5 and solidly in the playoffs, I think expectations are low enough this year that some grace period will be there with the fans.

On the other hand, there is always the possiblity that with the talent we do have and adding a few key plugs along the D line we could make a huge turn around by mid season and make a real run for the show this year. Stranger things have happened.

As always winning heals all things. And I doubt it will be a boring year.

For the D there really is no where to go but up

Bronco Yoda
04-07-2009, 11:03 PM
embrace the chaos

ZachKC
04-07-2009, 11:24 PM
Early in his career Manning was a BIG whiner who passed a lot of blame

But he was mentally tough when the ball was snapped. Cutler wasn't

snowspot66
04-08-2009, 06:55 AM
To the comment that the dominant playoff teams have all had guys like Brady, Manning, etc.

The only team that has been consistently dominant in the playoffs has been the Patriots and to a lesser extent the Steelers.

The Colts are THE playoff team everybody (but us) wants to play because Manning can't handle the pressure of the playoffs. He chokes. He got a ring because everybody on the team dragged him to it.

The Steelers won their two this decade because of their defense. Big Ben did enough to get by and stayed out of the way but their defenses were good enough that they could have put any QB capable of making good decisions back there and had a good chance to still win it.

The Patriots are in my opinion the only example of what a true franchise QB will bring to the table. He took teams that were at times inferior to the opponent and lead drives at the end of games to win.

2KBack
04-08-2009, 07:26 AM
Where were the Pats without Brady


They were living on the arm of a physically superior franchise QB named Drew Bledsoe. Brady succeeded then because he showed that he had the intangibles to run the system better than the prototype QB.

the big arm 1st round probowl QB was put aside for the low round thinking QB....hmmmm sounds familiar.

baja
04-08-2009, 07:31 AM
They were living on the arm of a physically superior franchise QB named Drew Bledsoe. Brady succeeded then because he showed that he had the intangibles to run the system better than the prototype QB.

the big arm 1st round probowl QB was put aside for the low round thinking QB....hmmmm sounds familiar.

That's right, forgot about that. Worked out OK for them.

I remember all the dire predictions about that too.

baja
04-08-2009, 07:32 AM
Was that a trade for two first's too? Can't remember the the circumstances.

orangeatheist
04-08-2009, 07:34 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0

Weren't Shannahan's Broncos the SF 49rs, version 2.0?

bronco610
04-08-2009, 07:56 AM
As one of the old guys I also have to give props to Kaylore. The Broncos were about defense and tough in the trenches football at one time. Gradishaw, Dennis Smith, Jackson to name a few. When Floyd Little would break one off for 7 yards... Thats right 7 yards. Do you know why that was special ? The defense knew he was going to get the ball, The defensive coach's knew he was getting the ball, The fans knew he was getting the ball, The announcers knew he was getting the ball.... And he still plowed ahead for 7 to 12 yards. That was what Broncos fans fell in love with. The Orange Crush, Tombstone, Little, tough in your face football. No wine and cheese players. We watched the Broncos to cheer for the attitude of Denver. We are better than you because we are the fans who support our team and sell out week after week no matter what our record is. When you come to mile high you will remember the noise. If you get your hearing back. Thats what denver Bronco Football was about !!!!


Thanks for reminding me Kaylore !!!

Bronx33
04-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Weren't Shannahan's Broncos the SF 49rs, version 2.0?


why yes they were!!

frerottenextelway
04-08-2009, 03:49 PM
Weren't Shannahan's Broncos the SF 49rs, version 2.0?

Not really.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 03:51 PM
Not really.

Yes, they were. Shanny followed the SF map of success to a T.

frerottenextelway
04-08-2009, 03:58 PM
Yes, they were. Shanny followed the SF map of success to a T.

I understand, but a lot of things that were done in SF under Shanahan were things brought to SF from Denver. We didn't run the Walsh system in Denver at any point. We also didn't go after a lot of 9ers.

Bronx33
04-08-2009, 04:03 PM
walsh ( west coast offense ) shanahan learned under walsh the media refered to the broncos as sanfran 2.0 blah blah blah now quit disagreeing with everybody about every subject.

lostknight
04-08-2009, 04:22 PM
I love it when people start apologizing for the season before it even starts.

frerottenextelway
04-08-2009, 04:31 PM
walsh ( west coast offense ) shanahan learned under walsh the media refered to the broncos as sanfran 2.0 blah blah blah now quit disagreeing with everybody about every subject.

If you think we ran the Walsh system in Denver, God help you.

And if you weren't such a dumbass toolbox, you'd see I did no more than answer a question.

Bronx33
04-08-2009, 04:36 PM
If you think we ran the Walsh system in Denver, God help you.

And if you weren't such a dumbass toolbox, you'd see I did no more than answer a question.

Sweet talk will get you nowhere **** head and iam not even going to waste my time trying to explain this one since you disagree with everything everybody says anyways what's the point.

frerottenextelway
04-08-2009, 04:41 PM
Sweet talk will get you nowhere **** head and iam not even going to waste my time trying to explain this one since you disagree with everything everybody says anyways what's the point.

Please, don't waste your time anymore. I find you boring, obnoxious, and stupid. I have no desire to converse with you, lets do that and not waste our time anymore.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 04:41 PM
I understand, but a lot of things that were done in SF under Shanahan were things brought to SF from Denver. We didn't run the Walsh system in Denver at any point. We also didn't go after a lot of 9ers.

Well, so far McDaniels has brought in two former Pats, Patton and Gaffney. Shanny actually brought over more than that just going off the top of my head (Eddie Mac, Derek Loville, Alfred Williams, Romo off the top of my head--seems like there was a backup guard too but I may be wrong there).

Dedhed
04-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Great post Kaylore. I think more than any allegiance to Shanahan or his system is just a general loss of intimacy with the team. As fans we pride ourselves on knowing as many details as we can about the team. Over the course of 14 years we all felt like we had an insiders insight.

Talking about the draft eligible players who will fit our scheme and FAs who are good fits are favorite fan pasttimes, but it's difficult to do that with any conviction when you don't really know the system or how the current players fit in.

Hamrob
04-08-2009, 08:28 PM
Nice to see you're getting your excuses ready....already!

That's right...this is going to be a struggle. Not because we're getting used to a new system...but because we are going to have a hard time trying to compete.

Mock Shanahan and his system all you want...but he is one hell of a football coach...and most folks around the NFL recognize that.

I'm not saying it wasn't time for a change...but I think its ignorant if not pathetic to not acknowlege that. Additionally, his system was a very good system. We may not have been as good as we wanted to be...but we were always competetive under Shanahan. His teams were fun to watch.

I can't honestly say that about Dan Reaves...although I liked him...his teams were boring and without Elway...I'm not sure he would have realized the success he did in Denver.

The way I see it...McDaniel's didn't want Cutler from the start and was clever enought to get the job and get rid of Cutler and gain Bowlen's support in doing so. I have to tip my hat to him for that alone.

If he's half as good of a coach as he is a manipulater we should be just fine. His offense doesn't require an elite qb...which is partially why he was fine with showing Cutler the door.

So, Cutler is gone...but everyone else from the #2 rated offense in the league is still around. McDaniels is supposed to be an offensive guru...so we really shouldn't expect much of a slip on offense. Am I wrong?

Defensively, we upgraded our coaching staff with Nolan and we spent a good amount of money in free-agency to improve our secondary and depth. We also acquired an additional 1st round draft choice and a 3rd via the Cutler deal. With 2 1's, a 2 and 2 3's...we should be able to improve the front 7...one would think anyway.

That being said...with our offense remaining no worse then last years and a much improved defense...shouldn't we be contenders this year?

I'm not sure why all of you McDaniel's supporters are making so many excuses for him...before the season even begins. I'd say anything less than 10-6 has to be a disapointment. Wouldn't you? I mean be honest.

Do you really think Bowlen fired Shanahan after two 8-8 teams when cutler was just hitting his groove and we had the #2 offense in the league...so that his team could take a step backwards?

Come on...be real. Anything less than 10-6 speaks of Pat Bowlen's immense failure and don't any of you think for a second...that folks around the league won't be calling a spade a spade...if things don't go well this year.

And no, I'm not joshing!

Rohirrim
04-08-2009, 08:46 PM
Nice to see you're getting your excuses ready....already!

That's right...this is going to be a struggle. Not because we're getting used to a new system...but because we are going to have a hard time trying to compete.

Mock Shanahan and his system all you want...but he is one hell of a football coach...and most folks around the NFL recognize that.

I'm not saying it wasn't time for a change...but I think its ignorant if not pathetic to not acknowlege that. Additionally, his system was a very good system. We may not have been as good as we wanted to be...but we were always competetive under Shanahan. His teams were fun to watch.

I can't honestly say that about Dan Reaves...although I liked him...his teams were boring and without Elway...I'm not sure he would have realized the success he did in Denver.

The way I see it...McDaniel's didn't want Cutler from the start and was clever enought to get the job and get rid of Cutler and gain Bowlen's support in doing so. I have to tip my hat to him for that alone.

If he's half as good of a coach as he is a manipulater we should be just fine. His offense doesn't require an elite qb...which is partially why he was fine with showing Cutler the door.

So, Cutler is gone...but everyone else from the #2 rated offense in the league is still around. McDaniels is supposed to be an offensive guru...so we really shouldn't expect much of a slip on offense. Am I wrong?

Defensively, we upgraded our coaching staff with Nolan and we spent a good amount of money in free-agency to improve our secondary and depth. We also acquired an additional 1st round draft choice and a 3rd via the Cutler deal. With 2 1's, a 2 and 2 3's...we should be able to improve the front 7...one would think anyway.

That being said...with our offense remaining no worse then last years and a much improved defense...shouldn't we be contenders this year?

I'm not sure why all of you McDaniel's supporters are making so many excuses for him...before the season even begins. I'd say anything less than 10-6 has to be a disapointment. Wouldn't you? I mean be honest.

Do you really think Bowlen fired Shanahan after two 8-8 teams when cutler was just hitting his groove and we had the #2 offense in the league...so that his team could take a step backwards?

Come on...be real. Anything less than 10-6 speaks of Pat Bowlen's immense failure and don't any of you think for a second...that folks around the league won't be calling a spade a spade...if things don't go well this year.

And no, I'm not joshing!

I would call that expectation "radical optimism." This team is installing new systems on offense, defense and STs (thank God) in the teeth of a nasty schedule. 10-6 is a fantasy.

Hamrob
04-08-2009, 09:01 PM
That's funny...didn't we:

1. Improve our coaching
2. Get rid of a cry baby QB
3. Improve our defense
4. Retain our offense...except the crybaby
5. Get more draft choices, including an additional 1 & 3

So, where's the excuses? come on...we didn't dump Shanny and Cutler so that we could actually lose more games? Did we?

Come on...we're changing our offense because we think we can do better...right? Certainly our defense will be improved? I think with that said, 10-6 or better should be an expectation.

Eldorado
04-08-2009, 09:09 PM
That's funny...didn't we:

1. Improve our coaching
2. Get rid of a cry baby QB
3. Improve our defense
4. Retain our offense...except the crybaby
5. Get more draft choices, including an additional 1 & 3

So, where's the excuses? come on...we didn't dump Shanny and Cutler so that we could actually lose more games? Did we?

Come on...we're changing our offense because we think we can do better...right? Certainly our defense will be improved? I think with that said, 10-6 or better should be an expectation.

There it is. 10-6 or firing shanny was a mistake.



Got it.

baja
04-08-2009, 09:20 PM
That's funny...didn't we:

1. Improve our coaching
2. Get rid of a cry baby QB
3. Improve our defense
4. Retain our offense...except the crybaby
5. Get more draft choices, including an additional 1 & 3

So, where's the excuses? come on...we didn't dump Shanny and Cutler so that we could actually lose more games? Did we?

Come on...we're changing our offense because we think we can do better...right? Certainly our defense will be improved? I think with that said, 10-6 or better should be an expectation.

Are you excited for the coming season?

Kaylore
04-08-2009, 09:36 PM
Hamrob, I think people want more than watching "fun" football. We want to win. If being competitive and watching a fun game is enough than that's fine. But we weren't even that. We lost the division when we only had to beat the Raiders and the Bills at home and couldn't. That's so freaking pathetic, words cannot describe.

And your comments that our struggles won't have anything to do with a new system are a joke. You can blame McDaniels all you want, but it takes time to do things the way a new coach wants. 10-6? We have a brutal schedule. Even Shanahan wouldn't make 10-6. He was going to retain Slowick which pretty much guarantees we win two to three games.

You're exactly the type I was expecting. You and others don't like the team because you don't recognize it. You would rather us be mediocre and comfortable than try and improve but throw out what we've known. That's ok. I understand that. A lot of people live their whole lives that way. The thing is Bowlen moved on, and at some point you're going to have to as well. Even if we fail horribly and McDaniels is fired in two years Shanahan is never coming back. It's time to turn the page.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 09:41 PM
Even Shanahan wouldn't make 10-6.


Nonsense. That's just garbage.

Kaylore
04-08-2009, 09:52 PM
Nonsense. That's just garbage.

No it's not. Taco he was going to keep Slowick. That alone guarantees we're lucky to win six games next year. I know you think "he would have just fixed the defense" if we gave him one more year. Shanahan threw any chance of accomplishing that away when he fired Coyer. Every coordinator after that was progressively worse. Not to mention Shanahan didn't have a clue how to draft or develop defensive talent in the first place. He was in complete denial of how horrible the situation was. And judging from your post, you still are.

dreasher54
04-09-2009, 05:40 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0

So does that mean we are winners?

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Nonsense. That's just garbage.

We weren't going anywhere next season with Slowik. That's a fact.

Broncos_OTM
04-09-2009, 08:11 AM
Nice, another "Im a real fan and youre not" thread.

Lex time and time again you have proven what a jackass you are.

oubronco
04-09-2009, 08:16 AM
That's funny...didn't we:

1. Improve our coaching Yet to be determined
2. Get rid of a cry baby QB by jettisoning our starting QB ok
3. Improve our defense other than Dawkins I say NO
4. Retain our offense...except the crybaby offseason isn't over with yet
5. Get more draft choices, including an additional 1 & 3 Goodmans aren't here anymore we'll have to wait and see if Xanders is a good draft guy

So, where's the excuses? come on...we didn't dump Shanny and Cutler so that we could actually lose more games? Did we?

Come on...we're changing our offense because we think we can do better...right? Certainly our defense will be improved? I think with that said, 10-6 or better should be an expectation.

jury's still out

no-pseudo-fan
04-09-2009, 08:17 AM
I hate to look at the schedule and say we are going to lose X number of games. Injuries, time of year, and schedule play a lot into how things go. If we play weaker teams early, we might be able to get into a groove for the harder games later. If/when we turn the ball over less, and create more turnovers, we could pull out an extra couple games. Just hard to say now, lets get thru the draft and pre season first.

OrangeRising
04-09-2009, 08:28 AM
Hamrob - "McDaniels is supposed to be an offensive guru...so we really shouldn't expect much of a slip on offense. Am I wrong?"


McDaniels is a glorified QB coach who interviews especially well. The idea this gentleman is some kind of young Mike Shanahan, Part II is ridiculous.

He has already said in the precious few public interviews he's annointed someone to do that he would 'tweak' the Belichick system, but Bill drew up the plan.

I agree he's smart and manipulative. He seems to take liberties with the truth when it serves his purpose, and he doesn't seem particularly friendly; alienating about half the fan base in his short time here. Maybe these are little wisdoms imparted by his master teacher; the ever stoic Bill Belichick. I don't know.

I do hope he's successful here. I really do. I will always be happy when the Broncos do well. It's just, well, him.

baja
04-09-2009, 08:35 AM
Lex time and time again you have proven what a jackass you are.

At least he is consistent.

Br0nc0Buster
04-09-2009, 08:46 AM
Hamrob - "McDaniels is supposed to be an offensive guru...so we really shouldn't expect much of a slip on offense. Am I wrong?"


McDaniels is a glorified QB coach who interviews especially well. The idea this gentleman is some kind of young Mike Shanahan, Part II is ridiculous.

He has already said in the precious few public interviews he's annointed someone to do that he would 'tweak' the Belichick system, but Bill drew up the plan.

I agree he's smart and manipulative. He seems to take liberties with the truth when it serves his purpose, and he doesn't seem particularly friendly; alienating about half the fan base in his short time here. Maybe these are little wisdoms imparted by his master teacher; the ever stoic Bill Belichick. I don't know.

I do hope he's successful here. I really do. I will always be happy when the Broncos do well. It's just, well, him.

Ok so how many players have come out against McDaniels again?
Crybaby Jay and his butt buddy Scheffler.....thats it

If Josh was such a tryant and being so unreasonable Im sure some of the vets might of offer their opinion
The players are buying into what he is selling
Who cares what some of the moron fans think, they dont interact with the guy personally.

OrangeRising
04-09-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't think McDaniels is unreasonable, but he is a tyrant. He's doing exactly what he wants to do and he had the owner to back him up.

Players aren't going to express their true feelings. They have one of the highest paying jobs in the world. They aren't going to put that at risk, no matter how they feel personally.

The fans can react publicly, and have done so in large numbers, but like you say, who cares what some moron fan thinks, and I'm sure McDaniels would agree with that.

baja
04-09-2009, 08:55 AM
Ok so how many players have come out against McDaniels again?
Crybaby Jay and his butt buddy Scheffler.....thats it

If Josh was such a tryant and being so unreasonable Im sure some of the vets might of offer their opinion
The players are buying into what he is selling
Who cares what some of the moron fans think, they dont interact with the guy personally.

Even Jay & Scheffler never said anything bad about the coaching or not liking McD

Headless Hessian Rider
04-09-2009, 09:09 AM
Who are these Broncos?

They are the NE Patriots, version 2.0
Well i f that means we will 3 Championships within the next 5 years then i'm fine with it!
:lombardi: :lombardi: :lombardi:

BroncoInSkinland
04-09-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't know these Broncos, and won't until the season is well underway. For me what it boils down to at this point is fear, expectation, and hopes.

My fear is that this team will regress offensively, doing far worse than 2nd in yardage, and not improving upon the middle of the road scoring from last year. I see this as a possiblity due to the loss of Cutlers arm, Shanahans game planning, the zone blocking scheme, and the lack of a true Running upgrade to this point in time. I also fear that implementing a new deffensive scheme without the proper personel and few upgrades to the line (so far) will result in the same deffensive woes we have been experiencing for the better part of a decade. I could see a team collapse resulting in a two or three win season and watching both the Raiders and the Chiefs blow past us in the AFC west.

On the other hand, I hope we will draft deffense heavy and get immediate impact players, in addition to the core of imported veterans with a tradition of winning. The front 7 could be the new "face" of the franchise, returning us to the days of the Orange Crush. I also hope McDaniels is everything he is cracked up to be, and that the offense remains top tier at pushing the ball down the field and learns how to finish off the impressive drives they are capable of. I know that it will take a while to transition, but with our division being as weak as it is, if this happens I can a winning record, and making the playoffs.

What I expect is a mid point between these two. I think it will be a slight, but continual, upgrade to the deffense, that probably won't pay off in a significant number of wins for a few seasons at least. I imagine the offense will decline, but become more consistant, if less exciting. I am guessing at the area of 5 to 6 wins, with the core of a good deffense starting to emerge towards the end of the year.

The problem is that with Shanahan, or even with McDaniels and Cutler, I saw the expectations being much closer to the hope side of things. I still think that last years offense with even a mediocre deffense would have gone to the playoffs this year. Every move that has been made since Shanahan announced we were keeping Slowik has made me less confident in this team and the outlook for the immediate future, and frankly I am tired of it. Who are these Broncos? I don't know, but I don't think they are as good as they were last year.

Gort
04-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Neckbeard is average. He will play like an average QB. He does not possess franchise QB natural talent. He will only be as soon as the line (which thankfully should be solid), the RB (which I am worried about), our TE (oops looks like we might dump him too), and so on.

Saying he is accurate is saying Griese was accurate. Which was very true.. for all those 3 to 5 yard passes. Look where that got us.

i'll take an average QB who doesn't commit turnovers + smart playcalling over what we've had with Shanny/Cutler/Plummer for 5 of the last 6 years.

Gort
04-09-2009, 10:48 AM
They were living on the arm of a physically superior franchise QB named Drew Bledsoe. Brady succeeded then because he showed that he had the intangibles to run the system better than the prototype QB.

the big arm 1st round probowl QB was put aside for the low round thinking QB....hmmmm sounds familiar.

it seems to me there is a pretty compelling case to be made that beyond a certain point, excessive physical talent in your QB position probably hurts your ability to win a SB. the stronger the arm, the less balanced your offense and the more you favor the passing game. also, the more the QB relies on and believes in his passing ability. so you get guys throwing into triple coverage on 1st and 2nd and 3rd downs, followed by a punt. IIRC, the last couple of years for Marino were basically that on almost every drive. throw on 1st. throw on 2nd. throw on 3rd. punt. likewise, if your QB is a gifted runner, your offense starts to be all about the QB and other parts of it get neglected. it seems to me there may be some merit to such an argument. maybe some guy at SI will take the time to research it and write it up. i think you want a better than average QB, and a smarter than average QB, to lead a team to mulitple SB wins. a Steve Young at QB is probably better than a Jeff George, Michael Vick, or Dan Marino.

Rohirrim
04-09-2009, 11:28 AM
That's funny...didn't we:

1. Improve our coaching
2. Get rid of a cry baby QB
3. Improve our defense
4. Retain our offense...except the crybaby
5. Get more draft choices, including an additional 1 & 3

So, where's the excuses? come on...we didn't dump Shanny and Cutler so that we could actually lose more games? Did we?

Come on...we're changing our offense because we think we can do better...right? Certainly our defense will be improved? I think with that said, 10-6 or better should be an expectation.

You're right. We should invite Shanahan and Slowik back and have them build a defense for us.

broncosteven
04-09-2009, 02:07 PM
i'll take an average QB who doesn't commit turnovers + smart playcalling over what we've had with Shanny/Cutler/Plummer for 5 of the last 6 years.

I take it you hated Elway also?

2KBack
04-09-2009, 02:36 PM
it seems to me there is a pretty compelling case to be made that beyond a certain point, excessive physical talent in your QB position probably hurts your ability to win a SB. the stronger the arm, the less balanced your offense and the more you favor the passing game. also, the more the QB relies on and believes in his passing ability. so you get guys throwing into triple coverage on 1st and 2nd and 3rd downs, followed by a punt. IIRC, the last couple of years for Marino were basically that on almost every drive. throw on 1st. throw on 2nd. throw on 3rd. punt. likewise, if your QB is a gifted runner, your offense starts to be all about the QB and other parts of it get neglected. it seems to me there may be some merit to such an argument. maybe some guy at SI will take the time to research it and write it up. i think you want a better than average QB, and a smarter than average QB, to lead a team to mulitple SB wins. a Steve Young at QB is probably better than a Jeff George, Michael Vick, or Dan Marino.

I think there is merit to that argument. Superstars sometimes have difficulty playing within a system and instead become the system. It's a hard sell though, and I wouldn't want to do the leg work myself.

Hamrob
04-09-2009, 02:58 PM
Hamrob, I think people want more than watching "fun" football. We want to win. If being competitive and watching a fun game is enough than that's fine. But we weren't even that. We lost the division when we only had to beat the Raiders and the Bills at home and couldn't. That's so freaking pathetic, words cannot describe.

And your comments that our struggles won't have anything to do with a new system are a joke. You can blame McDaniels all you want, but it takes time to do things the way a new coach wants. 10-6? We have a brutal schedule. Even Shanahan wouldn't make 10-6. He was going to retain Slowick which pretty much guarantees we win two to three games.

You're exactly the type I was expecting. You and others don't like the team because you don't recognize it. You would rather us be mediocre and comfortable than try and improve but throw out what we've known. That's ok. I understand that. A lot of people live their whole lives that way. The thing is Bowlen moved on, and at some point you're going to have to as well. Even if we fail horribly and McDaniels is fired in two years Shanahan is never coming back. It's time to turn the page.
Kaylore, my point is this...you can't have your cake and eat it to. The personnel is still here on offense. Yes, McDaniels will change it up some...but that line is still intact and so are the receivers. The only thing that changed is that Cutler is gone and we have improved our running game. Why should we expect our offense to be anything less than last years? Please explain.

Yes, switching to a 3-4 is going to take time, but our talent level will be better and Nolan is better than Slowick. We had the 30th ranked defense. Shouldn't we expect improvement there?

Special Teams...we were o.k here...but now we have a super snapper (come on...everyone has to laugh at that!). Look, I would expect some improvement in this phase of the game as well.

O.K. we have a tough schedule...but we should be a better team than last year. That being said, I really don't understand why you or anyone else would state so emphatically how better off we are now...and then in the same post...make excuses for not winning football games.

And whether we like McDaniels or liked Shanny...it doesn't matter at this point, McDaniels is the guy. So, considering that our talent should be improved overall and our coaching staff should be improved overall...then yes, I think that we as fans should expect improvement this year.

10-6 is fair...that's a wildcard birth. If that's not achieved, you nor anyone else will have to worry about me torching McDaniels...the roast will begin with the NFL network and quickly make its way around all the other networks without any of us fanning the flames.

If you believe that Cutler's going to fall on his face...you're having a pipe dream. If the Bears go deep in the playoffs and we're sitting at home again...Bowlen will have a very hard time not showing McDaniels the door. Especially if we end up something like 6-10. That's just reality...not bitterness on my part.

I'm hopeing...no...I'm expecting a wild-card birth at minimum! And, yes, I'll be rooting for McDaniels and the rest of the team including Orten to kick butt!

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 10:26 AM
Good thread, I missed it because the title isn't an attention-getter.

On paper right now before the draft even, I think this will be a pretty good team. They'll be fighting it out with SD for the AFCW title again. Even before the draft, this is a better roster. The coaching staff is better. The Cutler deal I think is a wash.

Cito Pelon
04-11-2009, 10:45 AM
This is certainly going to be hard for me, yes. Shanny and the Broncos were one and the same for me. It's not just that he's gone--it's that he's been replaced with a man that seems intent on removing all traces of what this team was under Shanahan. I figured we'd hire a defensive guy and the offense would still at least operate under the same princibles we've known.

But you're right, a large chunk of that left with Kubiak anyway.

Well, those O principles were pretty much score in the first two quarters, then score on the first drive of the third quarter, then don't score much at all in the late 3rd quarter, then barely score at all in the fourth quarter, so good riddance to that O principle.

Who these Broncos are now I sure hope that O principle is long gone. It was time for a new O principle. More hard nosed play, less cute stuff. More winning games in the second half, less depending on a quick lead in the first quarter. Better D play, better ST play, better all-around play rather than depending on getting a big first quarter lead then hanging on to it.

Hamrob
04-11-2009, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was time for a new O principle. That O happen to be in the top 5-10 every year for the last 14-15 years!

Sure, I'm willing to see McDaniels O...but to think it's going to be an upgrade is just silly.

Cito Pelon
04-13-2009, 01:35 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was time for a new O principle. That O happen to be in the top 5-10 every year for the last 14-15 years!

Sure, I'm willing to see McDaniels O...but to think it's going to be an upgrade is just silly.

Total pts scored, all NFL, Broncos ranking:

1999 - 18th
2000 - 2nd
2001 - 10th
2002 - 7th
2003 - 10th
2004 - 9th
2005 - 7th
2006 - 17th
2007 - 21st
2008 - 16th

One playoff win, one AFCW title in those ten years.