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View Full Version : Could Orton actually be a better QB than Cutler in McDaniels system?


baja
04-07-2009, 10:39 AM
Mcdaniels' system requires a very cerebral quarterback that can read defenses and find the open guy who is also a team leader capable of changing the play at the LOS to take advantage of what is given and be a team player.

Jay's next contract is going to be huge where as Orton not so much. Everything considered is Orton a better QB for the Broncos than jay Cutler not even factoring in the extra picks we got in the trade.

poll coming.

well I can't edit the second option It should say <b>not kill the cap.</b>

TheDave
04-07-2009, 10:40 AM
I doubt it, but anything is possible.

Popps
04-07-2009, 10:43 AM
I like Orton as part of the trade, but may stil be in the minority in that I wonder if he's still being thought of as more of a back-up or guy to compete with a potential draft pick, etc.

That said, he does have some untapped upside. Chicago has had no idea how to put an offense together for years, now.

I doubt he'll put up Cutler numbers, but he wouldn't have to. Field a properly structured NFL team and there's no need for the PS3 QB nonsense.

lex
04-07-2009, 10:43 AM
Could Orton actually be a better QB in the system that follows should McDaniels be fired after a year or two?

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 10:45 AM
Hilarious ... let the tortured rationalizations begin ;D

Kaylore
04-07-2009, 10:48 AM
The short answer is no. All things being equal, Cutler is more talented.

The real answer is yes because Cutler didn't want to be here and Orton does.

Hotrod
04-07-2009, 10:50 AM
I voted yes because I'm 100% homer :)

Broncos4tw
04-07-2009, 10:52 AM
Um.. no? Not a chance in hell?

Cutler in a system would always outperform Orton in a system. Why people are trying to justify to themselves that Orton is somehow as skilled as Cutler just makes me shake my head. He is what he is, an average or perhaps slightly above average QB, without any super talent. He is awkward in the pocket, slow, and I really doubt he can toss the ball off the wrong foot across his body 40 yards across the field and hit his target.

It is what it is. If our D reaaaly gets a boost, our running game greatly improves, as does our special teams, we may have a chance to compete. I don't doubt for a minute though, that we'd be much more competitive if Cutler was in this system instead.

baja
04-07-2009, 10:53 AM
I propose that Orton is a better fit straight up than Cutler. He looks to be a better decision maker and takes care of the ball better and can be coached up by McD he's the perfect guy for McD where as Jay was more of a free spirit type guy that insisted on taking big chances because of his great arm which makes him less coachable. Not to mention his next contract will be 100 million and this means we lose the chance to bring lots of other talent at outer positions because of the huge contract. Jay is a luxury that does not make sense in McDaniels system. ŕ

Gcver2ver3
04-07-2009, 10:56 AM
people will think i'm a homer, but yes Orton can be a better fit...

Cutler is the better QB and overall talent but Orton will fit better...

Orton doesn't have the physical tools to rely on so he has to play within the system better...

he won't force the ball and he will be a great student of the scheme...

Inkana7
04-07-2009, 11:10 AM
Um.. no? Not a chance in hell?

Cutler in a system would always outperform Orton in a system. Why people are trying to justify to themselves that Orton is somehow as skilled as Cutler just makes me shake my head. He is what he is, an average or perhaps slightly above average QB, without any super talent. He is awkward in the pocket, slow, and I really doubt he can toss the ball off the wrong foot across his body 40 yards across the field and hit his target.

It is what it is. If our D reaaaly gets a boost, our running game greatly improves, as does our special teams, we may have a chance to compete. I don't doubt for a minute though, that we'd be much more competitive if Cutler was in this system instead.

LOL Oh no!

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 11:12 AM
The short answer is no. All things being equal, Cutler is more talented.

The real answer is yes because Cutler didn't want to be here and Orton does.

End of thread. :strong:

yerner
04-07-2009, 11:18 AM
So ridiculous. A week ago there wasn't one article or writer that would have put these two in te same sentence. It would have be laughable. Now people actually think Orton is questionably better because of a syster?Give me a friggin break. Just because he is gone and you hate him doesnt mean he sucks.

bombay
04-07-2009, 11:19 AM
No.

lex
04-07-2009, 11:23 AM
So ridiculous. A week ago there wasn't one article or writer that would have put these two in te same sentence. It would have be laughable. Now people actually think Orton is questionably better because of a syster?Give me a friggin break. Just because he is gone and you hate him doesnt mean he sucks.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/lexlucid/glenn_close_fatal_attraction.jpg

Theres a lot of Roh-rage going around.

Paladin
04-07-2009, 11:29 AM
All you Orton pimps! What if Simms wins out? What do you think Can Simms wins out? Than maybe Simms puts up better numbers than either of them. Orton suckers.........

New poll coming put up by someone who has too much time on their hands......



Baja?

Los Broncos
04-07-2009, 11:29 AM
I was just talking to a co-worker about this today, he says he will go QB first pick.

I say no, Orton will do well in this system, maybe we go QB with a later pick.

DenverBroncosJM
04-07-2009, 11:31 AM
I think the bottom line is Cutler is a better QB. From what I understand of McD system all the things that make Cutler so much better dont count for a whole lot so its kinda like apples to oranges.

Will Cutler be better in Chicago then Orton was? Most likely. Will Orton be better in Denver than Cutler would be under Mc D system? We will never know but I would assume the gap isnt going to be as far as many people would like to think.

Gcver2ver3
04-07-2009, 11:34 AM
All you Orton pimps! What if Simms wins out? What do you think Can Simms wins out? Than maybe Simms puts up better numbers than either of them. Orton suckers.........

New poll coming put up by someone who has too much time on their hands......



Baja?

Simms will not beat out Orton...

Crushaholic
04-07-2009, 11:38 AM
All you Orton pimps! What if Simms wins out? What do you think Can Simms wins out? Than maybe Simms puts up better numbers than either of them. Orton suckers.........



If Simms outplays Orton, that would be fine with me. I see Orton as someone who can play the game adequately enough to win. I welcome the quarterback controversy. I always had the feeling that we were screwed if Cutler went down with an injury. Either Orton or Simms would be a serviceable backup if the starter is unavailable to play...

Paladin
04-07-2009, 11:50 AM
Simms will not beat out Orton...

Says you.....

You got a chrystal ball?

You got a special relationship with Madam Future?

Just how do you know that?

You don't. You're just guessing.....

BroncoInferno
04-07-2009, 11:50 AM
Um.. no? Not a chance in hell?

Cutler in a system would always outperform Orton in a system.

This is true IF (and it's a big if) Cutler buys into the system. If he doesn't buy into the system and continues to play sandlot style football, trying to force passes into tight spots, then, no, he would not outperform Orton in this system.

Houshyamama
04-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Hilarious ... let the tortured rationalizations begin ;D

wow. Just wow.

Orange Tinted Glasses

edit: accidentally voted yes. Real answer is hell no.

lex
04-07-2009, 11:56 AM
Says you.....

You got a chrystal ball?

You got a special relationship with Madam Future?

Just how do you know that?

You don't. You're just guessing.....


Do people really need to be spoonfed that this is his opinion? Does he actually need to preface his opinion by saying, "IMO"? Hasnt most of american society arrived at a point where they can discern what is opinion without confronting someone?

Popps
04-07-2009, 11:57 AM
So ridiculous. A week ago there wasn't one article or writer that would have put these two in te same sentence. It would have be laughable. Now people actually think Orton is questionably better because of a syster?Give me a friggin break. Just because he is gone and you hate him doesnt mean he sucks.

Of course, you called anyone who likes Hillis "gay," among other stellar takes.

Not a real surprise that you'd latch onto the nuts of a guy who wants no part of the team.

cmhargrove
04-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Jay has oodles more talent, and the arrogance to go with it. There were too many drives where open receivers were ignored for a double covered Marshall. You gotta like the gunslinger attitude, but it would always be a problem in this new "ball safety" system.

Based on what we have seen from Orton, his decisions are safer and his throws are a little less accurate (but maybe more catchable than a Cutler rocket). Is that a wash, or a net gain? We'll see.

Time will tell. Fix the defense first, the offense still has a great supporting cast and could very easily score more points than last year, even with less talent at QB. That's what really matters.

BroncoInferno
04-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Hilarious ... let the tortured rationalizations begin ;D

I think most people would agree that all things being equal, Cutler is the superior QB. But let's say none of this happens and Cutler is our QB next season. Remember, it is not just about physical ability. Your QB has to buy into what you're doing and execute the offense, or it won't work. Would Cutler have bought fully into McDaniels system, or would he have been hard-headed and continued to try and force things, gunslinger style? I'm not convinced he would have bought in. I'm convinced Orton will. If that's the case, then it may very well be that Orton is the better fit for this offense.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 12:02 PM
I think Orton, or Simms if he wins the job, will be perfect for a team with a 1st time HC who was only a OC for 3 years.

Orton was a winner in Chicago and Denver Locals love winners with Moxie. People may not realize that most of his wins were impossible dreams of plays by the Defense. An INT returned for a TD, Fumble recovery for TD, Kick or Punt return for TD.

Orton will play safe and not lose the game but we will not see the NO, 1st SD, Cleveland, or Falcon type plays. Look for more Buffalo almost won or could have won type games but that is what Rebuilding gets you.

I hope they build the D this year to help the O and then grab a QB in the next year or 2.

Please get some stud Dlinemen and a QB later.

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:06 PM
I voted yes because I'm 100% homer :)

AN HONEST MAN! ;D

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:09 PM
I think most people would agree that all things being equal, Cutler is the superior QB. But let's say none of this happens and Cutler is our QB next season. Remember, it is not just about physical ability. Your QB has to buy into what you're doing and execute the offense, or it won't work. Would Cutler have bought fully into McDaniels system, or would he have been hard-headed and continued to try and force things, gunslinger style? I'm not convinced he would have bought in. I'm convinced Orton will. If that's the case, then it may very well be that Orton is the better fit for this offense.

Excellent points all the way. McD's offense is comfortable for a QB of median skills, and Orton seems to have the perfect blue-collar Patriots approach. I'm sad, but optimistic too ... we still have the best young O-Line and WRs in the league, and I love Hillis.

If Orton and/or Simms works out in this offense, and we nail - REALLY nail -the two draft picks, this trade might work out as a positive. I'm fearing George Foster and Ashley Lelie ... but I'm hoping Al Wilson and Ryan Clady.

Broncos4tw
04-07-2009, 12:15 PM
This is true IF (and it's a big if) Cutler buys into the system. If he doesn't buy into the system and continues to play sandlot style football, trying to force passes into tight spots, then, no, he would not outperform Orton in this system.

That's what QB coaches are far. While some may try to make Jay out to be some wild, untamable animal, I'm willing to believe that if he is smart enough to figure out Shanahan's system, he could figure out McDs, and play within his guidelines.

Doesn't matter though, he is gone now, who honestly cares at this point. Stupid comparison. I'm still chuckling at people who think Orton can be a better QB in any situation. Last year, say, game 8 or so, would ONE person on this board even remotely entertain the idea of Orton being better? Not in a million years.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:21 PM
All you Orton pimps! What if Simms wins out? What do you think Can Simms wins out? Than maybe Simms puts up better numbers than either of them. Orton suckers.........

New poll coming put up by someone who has too much time on their hands......



Baja?

OK than I will remove the gun from your face now you are free to not click on this thread.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:24 PM
I think the bottom line is Cutler is a better QB. From what I understand of McD system all the things that make Cutler so much better dont count for a whole lot so its kinda like apples to oranges.

Will Cutler be better in Chicago then Orton was? Most likely. Will Orton be better in Denver than Cutler would be under Mc D system? We will never know but<b> I would assume the gap isnt going to be as far as many people would like to think.

That and the picks makes us better quicker.

JCMElway
04-07-2009, 12:26 PM
I voted yes because I'm 100% homo :)

Fixed it for you. :yayaya:

baja
04-07-2009, 12:32 PM
That's what QB coaches are far. While some may try to make Jay out to be some wild, untamable animal, I'm willing to believe that if he is smart enough to figure out Shanahan's system, he could figure out McDs, and play within his guidelines.

Doesn't matter though, he is gone now, who honestly cares at this point. Stupid comparison. I'm still chuckling at people who think Orton can be a better QB in any situation. <b> Last year, say, game 8 or so, would ONE person on this board even remotely entertain the idea of Orton being better? Not in a million years.

Maybe I should have boled this part IN THIS SYSTEM

cmhargrove
04-07-2009, 12:33 PM
I think Orton, or Simms if he wins the job, will be perfect for a team with a 1st time HC who was only a OC for 3 years.

Orton was a winner in Chicago and Denver Locals love winners with Moxie. People may not realize that most of his wins were impossible dreams of plays by the Defense. An INT returned for a TD, Fumble recovery for TD, Kick or Punt return for TD.

Orton will play safe and not lose the game but we will not see the NO, 1st SD, Cleveland, or Falcon type plays. Look for more Buffalo almost won or could have won type games but that is what Rebuilding gets you.

I hope they build the D this year to help the O and then grab a QB in the next year or 2.

Please get some stud Dlinemen and a QB later.

Very true, but Orton didn't have receivers like Marshall and Royal that could take a ten yard pass to the house either. This new scheme will rely heavily on the YAC ability of the various players - we have that in Denver.

Garcia Bronco
04-07-2009, 12:33 PM
HITH would we know

Bronx33
04-07-2009, 12:35 PM
who the **** knows

cmhargrove
04-07-2009, 12:37 PM
That's what QB coaches are far. While some may try to make Jay out to be some wild, untamable animal, I'm willing to believe that if he is smart enough to figure out Shanahan's system, he could figure out McDs, and play within his guidelines.

Doesn't matter though, he is gone now, who honestly cares at this point. Stupid comparison. I'm still chuckling at people who think Orton can be a better QB in any situation. Last year, say, game 8 or so, would ONE person on this board even remotely entertain the idea of Orton being better? Not in a million years.

One of the things that I think will surprise you is how much better Orton might be at check downs. He seems to make up his mind much more quickly that he will take 5-10 yards, rather than staring down his long distance receivers. And, he does a pretty decent job of "laying in" the deep pass along the sideline.

If Cutler used check downs as much as Peyton manning, he would look a lot more like Peyton Manning. Orton at least knows how to use his brains to extend drives - especially by chipping away. Now, do we have the talent at RB to do something with that?

Could Cutler do these things much better than Orton - hell yes. Does he do them - hell no.

broncofan7
04-07-2009, 12:38 PM
No.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:43 PM
HITH would we know

So true! From now on only post what you know for sure, just be prepared to make less than 20 posts all year.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:46 PM
So for those of you that think this is a ridicules premiss;

24 posters voted yes Orton will be better in McD's system and 19 voted no.

Hotrod
04-07-2009, 12:46 PM
I believe I heard that da bears avg yards per pass play was something like 9. That better not be the Orton we are getting.

Or maybe 6 per attempt

ScottXray
04-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Does Cutler have more Talent? Yes.
Can Orton outplay Cutler in McDaniels Offense? Yes.
Orton is steadier and less likely to make the stupid , drive killer, throw.
If the rest of the Offense picks up their game, Orton may move the chains
more consistently, when its required. There may not be as many highlight plays, but there could be more scores overall.

Cutler would have to buy into McD's plan and play within
it. He would have to mature and stop gunslinging....something he
hasn't shown a tendency to do yet.

If Cutler gets his estrogen levels under control, and plays the way he CAN instead of the way he has, he is obviously the better QB. No matter what system he plays in. But Sea changes of personality don't happen overnight....

Only time will tell...... but we might have gotten the better part of this trade.

I hope so.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 12:57 PM
So for those of you that think this is a ridicules premiss;

24 posters voted yes Orton will be better in McD's system and 19 voted no.

Why do we need to get the Better QB or WIN the trade?

Why can't they just replace the bad parts and find a way to build a Defense and a TEAM that can win more than 8 games a year?

I think we lost a great talent. We gained a decent rebuilding QB who will need to be replaced in a couple of years after the rest of the team is built.

Why we have to win the talent or trade contest rather than worry about winning games is beyond me.

baja
04-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Why do we need to get the Better QB or WIN the trade?

Why can't they just replace the bad parts and find a way to build a Defense and a TEAM that can win more than 8 games a year?

I think we lost a great talent. We gained a decent rebuilding QB who will need to be replaced in a couple of years after the rest of the team is built.

Why we have to win the talent or trade contest rather than worry about winning games is beyond me.

Why? Because Jay wanted out of Denver to the extent he snubbed the owner.

ScottXray
04-07-2009, 01:05 PM
Why do we need to get the Better QB or WIN the trade?

Why can't they just replace the bad parts and find a way to build a Defense and a TEAM that can win more than 8 games a year?

I think we lost a great talent. We gained a decent rebuilding QB who will need to be replaced in a couple of years after the rest of the team is built.

Why we have to win the talent or trade contest rather than worry about winning games is beyond me.

Same reason these threads keep getting started......people want to KNOW the unknowable......
And People want to be RIGHT....and they want everyone else to acknowledge how RIGHT they are/were by having these old posts around, to prove the point at some time.

Even if we make the playoffs next year, or somehow get to the super bowl in 2 years, there will be someone to claim that we would have got there sooner with Shanahan, or Cutler, or Whatever, that somehow we would have been better off in the alternate universe....

Like you...I just want to do some winning!

lex
04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Does Cutler have more Talent? Yes.
Can Orton outplay Cutler in McDaniels Offense? Yes.
Orton is steadier and less likely to make the stupid , drive killer, throw.
If the rest of the Offense picks up their game, Orton may move the chains
more consistently, when its required. There may not be as many highlight plays, but there could be more scores overall.

Cutler would have to buy into McD's plan and play within
it. He would have to mature and stop gunslinging....something he
hasn't shown a tendency to do yet.

If Cutler gets his estrogen levels under control, and plays the way he CAN instead of the way he has, he is obviously the better QB. No matter what system he plays in. But Sea changes of personality don't happen overnight....

Only time will tell...... but we might have gotten the better part of this trade.

I hope so.


Hellooooooooooo...?
Echooooooooooo...

USMCBladerunner
04-07-2009, 01:22 PM
I assumed that you were talking about a hypothetical Jay Cutler that would actually play in a McDaniels system, so I voted no. Like Kaylore said though, the real Jay Cutler doesn't want to be a Bronco, so he won't be producing at all.

Orton may well be a good QB for Denver, but his on field talent in comparison to Cutler is lacking. System or no, Cutler is the better QB talent. Time will tell if his head will become a limiting factor to his success.

TheReverend
04-07-2009, 02:05 PM
Of course, you called anyone who likes Hillis "gay," among other stellar takes.

Not a real surprise that you'd latch onto the nuts of a guy who wants no part of the team.

Do you mind if I ask how you possibly managed to equate his post to "nut latching"?

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 02:19 PM
Why? Because Jay wanted out of Denver to the extent he snubbed the owner.

What does that have to do with my post?

My post was about why the fans here need to win every trade or our QB always has to be the best QB ever to play the game.

Maybe if Denver fans would appreciate our talent for the talent they have rather than EPIC HIXON like talent we wouldn't have meltdowns and run talented QB's out of town.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't want to play in Denver either.

baja
04-07-2009, 02:39 PM
What does that have to do with my post?

My post was about why the fans here need to win every trade or our QB always has to be the best QB ever to play the game.

Maybe if Denver fans would appreciate our talent for the talent they have rather than EPIC HIXON like talent we wouldn't have meltdowns and run talented QB's out of town.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't want to play in Denver either.

So it was the fans that ran Jay out of town.

Thanks for clearing that up.

DenverBroncosJM
04-07-2009, 03:10 PM
So it was the fans that ran Jay out of town.

Thanks for clearing that up.


We actually stole his cell phone and turned it off so he couldnt call Bowlen or Mc D back............

Shoemaker
04-07-2009, 03:11 PM
I think most people would agree that all things being equal, Cutler is the superior QB. But let's say none of this happens and Cutler is our QB next season. Remember, it is not just about physical ability. Your QB has to buy into what you're doing and execute the offense, or it won't work. Would Cutler have bought fully into McDaniels system, or would he have been hard-headed and continued to try and force things, gunslinger style? I'm not convinced he would have bought in. I'm convinced Orton will. If that's the case, then it may very well be that Orton is the better fit for this offense.

I basically came here to say this.

Cutler has all the talent in the world, but there's definitely a cerebral aspect to being a QB in McDaniels system. I think he could have absolutely excelled in this system IF he had been willing to fix the nuances of his game (footwork, check downs, etc.) instead of being a gunslinger and trusting his admittedly amazing arm too much.

However, that might be a big if. I'm not going to say Cutler couldn't have changed his ways, but I don't know if he would have bought into McDaniels system after being so attached to Shannahan and Bates'.

Orton, from what I've read about him, seems to be closer to a prototypical Patriots QB. I think he has potential to do very well here.

baja
04-07-2009, 03:18 PM
We actually stole his cell phone and turned it off so he couldnt call Bowlen or Mc D back............

Could we be any worse?

Do you think Jay will ever forgive us?

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 03:20 PM
All you Orton pimps! What if Simms wins out? What do you think Can Simms wins out? Than maybe Simms puts up better numbers than either of them. Orton suckers.........

New poll coming put up by someone who has too much time on their hands......



Baja?

whoopee if Simms wins out. Fact is, there will be a competition for the starting QB spot and may the best man win...

Pony Boy
04-07-2009, 03:36 PM
You don't win super bowls with an average QB. Cutler is a top 10 QB but he is gone! Thatís a fact and we can't change that. Orton is an average QB, but the real question is will Orton be able to step his game up in McD's system and become an above average QB. Can he rise to that upper level, does he have the physical and mental talent to do that? McD thinks he can. I have my doubts but I hope I'm wrong.

elsid13
04-07-2009, 03:37 PM
If Cutler was in the system he would extremely successful, more then Orton or Simms. Because when the plays breaks down (at some point all plays break down) Cutler has the ability to make something happen. It is to bad that McDick couldn't figure out how to get Cutler on board

listopencil
04-07-2009, 03:46 PM
http://post.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2008/12/08/1228783126_rose_crack_pipe.jpg

Pony Boy
04-07-2009, 03:46 PM
If Cutler was in the system he would extremely successful, more then Orton or Simms. Because when the plays breaks down (at some point all plays break down) Cutler has the ability to make something happen. It is to bad that McDick couldn't figure out how to get Cutler on board

Your right but the fact is Cutler is gone! In McD's system, when the play breaks down the OB dumps off, he is never put in a position to roll out and make something happen.

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 04:04 PM
You don't win super bowls with an average QB. Cutler is a top 10 QB but he is gone! Thatís a fact and we can't change that. Orton is an average QB, but the real question is will Orton be able to step his game up in McD's system and become an above average QB. Can he rise to that upper level, does he have the physical and mental talent to do that? McD thinks he can. I have my doubts but I hope I'm wrong.

Oh really?

I don't think Doug Williams was anything special before he beat the pie out of the Broncos in that godforsaken SB against the Skins.

But, he was pretty damn mediocre throughout most of his career.

That's just one example.

I'm not all that sure that Ben Roethlisberger is all that good either. I think he benefits from a great defense and a power running game like no other QB in the NFL. Sure, that's JMHO, but if you look at my posts, 99.99% of the time I'm 100% correct.

Boobs McGee
04-07-2009, 04:14 PM
Weren't there (in one of the many articles on the topic thus far) a few quotes where Josh spoke directly to this point? Well, not DIRECTLY, but...I thouht I read somewhere how he thought Cutler would (and I"m paraphrasing here) flourish in his system, and that was one of the main reasons in choosing the Broncos? This is all pre-babyjay breakdown of course....BUT. It was my understanding that Coach McD was excited about having someone as talented as Jay running his system, because he could pick it up and play it well.

So, for me, as much as I hope and pray that Orton DOES become the better of the two (in this type of system), I would have to believe that Jay should have been more proficient. Barring any mental breakdowns haha.

I guess without seeing if he COULD have sucked it up and played ball for the offensive genius, it's pretty tough to speculate.

But the coach said how well he thought he was going to do in the system, so I'm going Cutler

Drek
04-07-2009, 05:30 PM
You don't win super bowls with an average QB.

Isn't this a self fufilling prophecy though?

The 'Skins won three titles with three different QBs during Joe Gibbs' heyday, and I'd say Theisman was the only above average one in the bunch.

Terry Bradshaw won a fist full of rings and lets be honest, the dude just wasn't that great.

Tom Brady wasn't picking teams apart his first few years when he won three titles in four years.

Ben Roethlisberger is incredibly inconsistent on the regular season, but now he's got two rings so he's a "franchise" type.

Eli Manning was being considered a possible bust until he won a ring almost entirely on the backs of a great defense and running game.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have recently won rings.

Kurt Warner has a ring, and he's gone to two other SBs. He had a hard time being offered anything but a backup role before and after the first two appearances.

You win titles you get hyped, thats how the QB position works. They get all the credit for success and all the blame for failure.

Anyhow, onto the question at hand. Jay Cutler, should he actually want to play in the system and gave 100% effort, would be better than Kyle Orton at basically every single thing you can do as a player in the NFL. But Jay Cutler was unwilling to even give 1% effort in this system, so who cares?

The more important thing is that both Kyle Orton and Chris Simms (to a slightly lesser extent) bring the mental and physical skills needed to perform in McDaniels' system. And that system isn't built on a QB going out and making plays like the gunslinger Jay typically plays like. The QB's job is to get the ball to his play makers when they're in positions to make plays. That means occasionally you go deep, but you also do a lot of underneath passing where you give your targets a chance at YAC.

The entire purpose of a scheme is to put your players in situations that best utilizes what talents they have. In McDaniels' scheme Jay's physical gifts are amplified less than in other schemes and it instead focuses on heady QB play with timely and accurate passes in the short to intermediate range with well timed deep strikes. That is a scheme that directly plays into the skills that Orton and Simms come closest to matching or exceeding Cutler in.

So while Cutler would obviously have been a superior option, what the question should be is would you rather take a marginal improvement at QB or two firsts and a 3rd that can be used to rebuild the defense?

listopencil
04-07-2009, 05:33 PM
Drek, I'm with you except on Brady and Warner. Both were well above average when they won SB's.

Broncos4tw
04-07-2009, 05:41 PM
If you have an average QB, your entire team must seriously be clicking to win SBs. There are rare exceptions (usually when a team has a top 5 D), but typically, every year, any team that wins has a franchise QB.

I really don't know what everyone means by 'buy into the system.' No, they just need to learn the system, and hopefully their physical abilities will allow them to flourish in that system.

People are seriously reaching when they try to say that Orton would do better. That's ridiculous.

But it doesn't matter. We have who we have.

DBroncos4life
04-07-2009, 05:51 PM
Oh really?

I don't think Doug Williams was anything special before he beat the pie out of the Broncos in that godforsaken SB against the Skins.

But, he was pretty damn mediocre throughout most of his career.

That's just one example.

I'm not all that sure that Ben Roethlisberger is all that good either. I think he benefits from a great defense and a power running game like no other QB in the NFL. Sure, that's JMHO, but if you look at my posts, 99.99% of the time I'm 100% correct.

There are far fewer average QBs that have won the SB then good to great QBs.

BroncoInferno
04-07-2009, 06:08 PM
There are far fewer average QBs that have won the SB then good to great QBs.

Ah, now you are changing the parameters from "franchise QB" to "good to great." I'd say Orton has been good based on what the Bears asked him to do.

Like Drek said, QBs get hyped when their team wins the SB, but a lot of those guys were not really elite. Eli is probably the most over rated player in the league. Until the last couple of games in '07, he was being talked about as a bust. He threw 20 INTs for that year. Then his D catches fire and he rides that gravy train to the SB, and all of a sudden he's a franchise QB? This season his performance was pretty average as well. Roethlisberger is clutch for sure, but is he elite? Keep in mind that Pitts philosophy is to keep his pass attempts under 25. When it goes over 25, they don't have a great record. The one year they actually turned Roethlisberger loose, they went 8-8. I'm not sure he goes in the elite class either. He's good and has an elite team.

Anyway, my point is you don't have to have a so-called "franchise QB" to win it all. There are other formulas that also work.

chaz
04-07-2009, 06:13 PM
This entire premise of this thread is a ****ing joke. Lay off the booze.

BroncoInferno
04-07-2009, 06:14 PM
That's what QB coaches are far. While some may try to make Jay out to be some wild, untamable animal, I'm willing to believe that if he is smart enough to figure out Shanahan's system, he could figure out McDs, and play within his guidelines.

Doesn't matter though, he is gone now, who honestly cares at this point. Stupid comparison. I'm still chuckling at people who think Orton can be a better QB in any situation. Last year, say, game 8 or so, would ONE person on this board even remotely entertain the idea of Orton being better? Not in a million years.

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying Cutler does not have the intellectual capacity to master the offense. I think he does for sure. What I question is whether or not he has the mentality to go out on the field and execute it. Will he be content frequently going to check-downs rather than forcing things for the big play? Sure, a QB coach can help. But all he can do is give the QB the mental toolbox to go out and execute. It's up to the QB to buy in and execute on the field. I'm not sure Cutler would have been willing to do that. I don't know he wouldn't, but I think it is certainly possible based on what we've seen of him both on and off the field. If Cutler would not buy into the system, then, yes, Orton is the better option. If he buys in, then no doubt he's the superior player. But that is a big "if" IMO.

baja
04-07-2009, 06:16 PM
This entire premise of this thread is a ****ing joke. Lay off the booze.

41 people disagree with you.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 06:26 PM
So it was the fans that ran Jay out of town.

Thanks for clearing that up.

So I am bitter because I have been watching a very savvy QB being interviewed on the local tv stations here in Chicago. He has more personality and is smarter than the last 27 QB's to suit up since 1985.

I am bitter because we had him and no one wants him and I now have to watch him play for my buddies team while I languish in pergutory.

"There is no greater sorrow
Than to be mindful of the happy time
In misery. "
Dante Alighieri.

baja
04-07-2009, 06:33 PM
So I am bitter because I have been watching a very savvy QB being interviewed on the local tv stations here in Chicago. He has more personality and is smarter than the last 27 QB's to suit up since 1985.

I am bitter because we had him and no one wants him and I now have to watch him play for my buddies team while I languish in pergutory.

"There is no greater sorrow
Than to be mindful of the happy time
In misery. "
Dante Alighieri.

Seriously I doubt there is one Bronco fan that doesn't feel sick about loosing Cutler and what could have been but put the blame where it belongs, on Jay.

Broncomutt
04-07-2009, 06:46 PM
Orton

Broncomutt
04-07-2009, 06:47 PM
Cutler

colonelbeef
04-07-2009, 06:54 PM
41 people disagree with you.

homerism is alive and well, this is not a shock.

broncosteven
04-07-2009, 07:00 PM
Seriously I doubt there is one Bronco fan that doesn't feel sick about loosing Cutler and what could have been but put the blame where it belongs, on Jay.

I think there is plenty of blame for both sides.

Honestly watching Jay handle himself in multiple interviews here on local TV is making me sick.

Chicago's sports coverage has a Comcast channel and Fox has a pretty good Sunday night program.

Denver has/had a coach show on Fridays and multiple players on Sunday nights.

Denver coverage blows Chicago's out of the water.

Watching Cutler perform on a Chicago station as the leader of DA BEARS really kicked me in the gut.

That and my buddies constantly throwing salt in the wound makes it tough.

I don't get where Cutler was considered a crybaby punk after seeing how he handled himself the last couple of days.

Maybe Denver deserves Orton and the other 27 lunk heads DA BEARS had to endure the last 23 years

Inkana7
04-07-2009, 07:10 PM
I think there is plenty of blame for both sides.

Honestly watching Jay handle himself in multiple interviews here on local TV is making me sick.

Chicago's sports coverage has a Comcast channel and Fox has a pretty good Sunday night program.

Denver has/had a coach show on Fridays and multiple players on Sunday nights.

Denver coverage blows Chicago's out of the water.

Watching Cutler perform on a Chicago station as the leader of DA BEARS really kicked me in the gut.

That and my buddies constantly throwing salt in the wound makes it tough.

I don't get where Cutler was considered a crybaby punk after seeing how he handled himself the last couple of days.

Maybe Denver deserves Orton and the other 27 lunk heads DA BEARS had to endure the last 23 years

He cried and got what he wanted. Now he's happy.

DBroncos4life
04-07-2009, 07:41 PM
Ah, now you are changing the parameters from "franchise QB" to "good to great." I'd say Orton has been good based on what the Bears asked him to do.

Like Drek said, QBs get hyped when their team wins the SB, but a lot of those guys were not really elite. Eli is probably the most over rated player in the league. Until the last couple of games in '07, he was being talked about as a bust. He threw 20 INTs for that year. Then his D catches fire and he rides that gravy train to the SB, and all of a sudden he's a franchise QB? This season his performance was pretty average as well. Roethlisberger is clutch for sure, but is he elite? Keep in mind that Pitts philosophy is to keep his pass attempts under 25. When it goes over 25, they don't have a great record. The one year they actually turned Roethlisberger loose, they went 8-8. I'm not sure he goes in the elite class either. He's good and has an elite team.

Anyway, my point is you don't have to have a so-called "franchise QB" to win it all. There are other formulas that also work.

Ok then why do teams draft QBs so low? Why do teams spend so much time and money looking for the next "John Elway" or "Payton Manning"? I don't see many teams settling for a avg QB if they don't have too.

chaz
04-07-2009, 09:07 PM
41 people disagree with you.

There are 41 people that choose to kid themselves. Their choice.

I believe McD can work with Orton, and he can be good. But Jay is just on a different level. Anyone disputing that is delusional.

baja
04-07-2009, 09:21 PM
There are 41 people that choose to kid themselves. Their choice.

I believe McD can work with Orton, and he can be good. But Jay is just on a different level. Anyone disputing that is delusional.


What Jay shines at needs to be curtailed in McDs system (risk taking ) and his weakness' (reading Ds and checking off ) need to be strengths. His value would not effectively be utilized by McD. Jay is not a good fit and when you think about what his next contract is going to be, well McD will not want to spend that kind on money on that position much like Shanny never wanted to use a high draft pick on a running back. Both positions do well because of the system so you can cut back on the money invested in the position.

Hope it works...

Oh and I doubt anyone would disagree with you about Jay's awesome talent.

Hulamau
04-07-2009, 09:42 PM
I propose that Orton is a better fit straight up than Cutler. He looks to be a better decision maker and takes care of the ball better and can be coached up by McD he's the perfect guy for McD where as Jay was more of a free spirit type guy that insisted on taking big chances because of his great arm which makes him less coachable. Not to mention his next contract will be 100 million and this means we lose the chance to bring lots of other talent at outer positions because of the huge contract. Jay is a luxury that does not make sense in McDaniels system. ŕ

Well said Baja, in pure talent terms and assuming for fantasy sake, that Jay was able to truly get with the program and dedicate himself to McD and the system, then yes of course he is the superior talent.

The one area I question even straight up is at the line of scrimmage, particularly in the red zone where I think Orton is the faster and sharper of the two mentally and temperamentally and would make less mistakes that cost of a couple games each year.

But looking over all the odds are high that Orton is the better guy, he has plenty enough arm for this system and accuracy is fine, maybe even better than Jays, not as mobile as Jay but neither is Brady oir Cassel ( well maybe Cassel as mobile as Jay??) but this is a pocket passers system.

And the three extra picks we get in the draft can make a HUGE difference in the net outcome of the strength of the over all team and WINNING games having a guy like Orton ( or Simms) back there who players well within the system and then having at least three more guys on D that are stud players for years to come.

Plus, not being shackled with Mr. 'Me's $100 million contract going forward, as you said, could be a major help in fielding a solid team all around.

Bottom line , Cutler may well do Okay in Chicago and put up nice stats, but the truth is HE is the one who could have benefited most by playing for McD in this system. Chances are high Jay will for a long time remain that guy who is close but no cigar.

baja
04-07-2009, 09:53 PM
Plus he doesn't seem to have the Elway 'it' to rally the team for wins.


At present a want'a be gunslinger..

ZONA
04-07-2009, 09:54 PM
If Orton can win more games then you have your answer. Orton would have to win more games to be considered better. It's not exactly a hard stat to achieve though since Cutler was a .500 QB. Yeah yeah, not all his fault, we no know that. But NFL QB's are judged on winning like it or not.

TheDave
04-07-2009, 10:06 PM
I think a lot of people here are working overtime, trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ****. IF (and this is a huge IF) Orton turns out to be a good QB and we are able to make something out of these draft picks then this trade has a chance of turning in the Broncos favor. As of right now we are a much weaker team then we were.

Look folks, I'm completely in on the joke that Jay decided he wanted out and the FO had no other choice, but running around here pretending that Orton is somehow as good if not better than Cutler in this system or any other is absurd.

chaz
04-07-2009, 11:23 PM
What Jay shines at needs to be curtailed in McDs system (risk taking ) and his weakness' (reading Ds and checking off ) need to be strengths. His value would not effectively be utilized by McD. Jay is not a good fit and when you think about what his next contract is going to be, well McD will not want to spend that kind on money on that position much like Shanny never wanted to use a high draft pick on a running back. Both positions do well because of the system so you can cut back on the money invested in the position.

Hope it works...

Oh and I doubt anyone would disagree with you about Jay's awesome talent.

Orton may fit and succeed. But there is not an offensive system in the world you could run and if given the choice, choose Orton over Cutler. Contracts are not the issue.

baja
04-07-2009, 11:50 PM
That's why Orton came with 2 1sts and a 3rd.

There is something to be said about having 5 of the first 83 picks in a given year.

footstepsfrom#27
04-08-2009, 02:24 AM
Everything considered is Orton a better QB for the Broncos than jay Cutler not even factoring in the extra picks we got in the trade.
Sure. He'll be better than Elway or Montana too.

Dedhed
04-08-2009, 03:08 AM
I voted yes because Cutler pouted his way off the team at the mere mention of having to be a system QB. Cutler doesn't need a system, he's better than that.

I flat out don't think Cutler could run McDaniels's system. It requires too much patience and discipline.

Drek
04-08-2009, 04:54 AM
Drek, I'm with you except on Brady and Warner. Both were well above average when they won SB's.

Warner's run of success in St. Louis was proceeded by him literally bagging groceries, then playing arena football, then being a backup no one had ever heard of. Trent Green got hurt and he got a shot, but the guy was a Darrell Hackney level of nobody before he got that golden opportunity and made the most of it.

And Brady was a similar "who's this guy?" 6th round pick who took a chance and ran with it. His first two titles he put up an 86 and 85 QB rating on the season, it wasn't until the third that he really started to put up some "franchise QB" numbers.

I think Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL today, but when he first came into this league he was a nobody, and when the Pats started winning most attributed it to their defense first, special teams second, and Tom Brady and the running game in a tie for third. He's proven them wrong, that he really is an elite QB, but he wasn't considered the all time great he is today when he first got his shot.

SPORTSWRITER
04-08-2009, 05:40 AM
.......Now people actually think Orton is questionably better because of a syster?

hmmm... However, I say if his syster really is that much of a positive influence on him, then maybe we better just sign her up to help McD coach ole Kyle; or heck, maybe even let her compete for our starting QB job this year, herself! :)

Just kidding, dude! ;) I know you meant sistem :Ha! :giggle: ;D

WolfpackGuy
04-08-2009, 05:47 AM
What worries me the most is if the "System" breaks down, which it often does, then Orton will not be able to make a play.

This is the Brian Griese era all over again.

Rohirrim
04-08-2009, 05:59 AM
I think Orton will be the guy they put at the helm to keep the ship straight during rebuilding. Once it's rebuilt, we'll get a new captain to go to war with. We've got a couple of years, yet. No need to panic.

BFDD
04-08-2009, 07:15 AM
I think a lot of people here are working overtime, trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ****. IF (and this is a huge IF) Orton turns out to be a good QB and we are able to make something out of these draft picks then this trade has a chance of turning in the Broncos favor. As of right now we are a much weaker team then we were.

Look folks, I'm completely in on the joke that Jay decided he wanted out and the FO had no other choice, but running around here pretending that Orton is somehow as good if not better than Cutler in this system or any other is absurd.

It is absurd that people think that Orton will be better than Cutler would have been in this offense. Cutler was a top 10 QB last season and given development and the pass happy system he would have been playing in, he had the potential to move into that elite top 3.

That being said, Orton's strengths more equally match McDaniels' offense. Orton is also going to benefit from one of the best young Olines and one of the best young WR tandems in the league. The bears offensive (pun intended) weapons are going to mitigate Cutlers strengths. (I'm curious to see Cutlers tantrum when Hester drops a ball)

Without the high draft pics that they traded to Denver, it will be several years before they can surround Cutler with the type of talent he was accustomed to here in Denver.

If you look back on last year, the Bears traded two firsts and a third for 5 touchdowns (Bears QB's . If I were prescient, that margin is going to be even less this year between Cutler and Orton. I'd wager to say that Orton will be less than a thousand yards, and less than 5 touchdowns away from where Cutler will finish the season.

I like Orton better than I liked Cutler, but lets not be naive in thinking Orton will be better than Cutler would have been in this system.

Circle Orange
04-08-2009, 07:28 AM
People talk about systems as if a guy is talented, he just goes out there and wings it. EVERY qb in the history of the NFL is in a 'system'. Great qbs have more versatility and can win in MORE systems, but they still need one. The 'alley' ball guys end up in knee braces and out of the league in six years or so, or are relegated to backup status and bounce around. And oh yeah, they never win anything. eventually other guys are fast too, run them down and beat them up.

See Andre Ware syndrome....

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 07:42 AM
This is the Brian Griese era all over again.

Griese did not have a very good OL his last couple of seasons here. He was pretty sharp in 2000 when the offensive line was an elite group. The group was old though and he ended up with Trey Teague at left tackle in later seasons. Orton will have an elite line, and most importantly a young line.

baja
04-08-2009, 07:47 AM
Griese did not have a very good OL his last couple of seasons here. He was pretty sharp in 2000 when the offensive line was an elite group. The group was old though and he ended up with Trey Teague at left tackle in later seasons.<b> Orton will have an elite line, and most importantly a young line.

I get why people are so distraught, Jay with this potent and young offense. Could have been a major force for years...

gyldenlove
04-08-2009, 07:48 AM
Warner's run of success in St. Louis was proceeded by him literally bagging groceries, then playing arena football, then being a backup no one had ever heard of. Trent Green got hurt and he got a shot, but the guy was a Darrell Hackney level of nobody before he got that golden opportunity and made the most of it.

And Brady was a similar "who's this guy?" 6th round pick who took a chance and ran with it. His first two titles he put up an 86 and 85 QB rating on the season, it wasn't until the third that he really started to put up some "franchise QB" numbers.

I think Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL today, but when he first came into this league he was a nobody, and when the Pats started winning most attributed it to their defense first, special teams second, and Tom Brady and the running game in a tie for third. He's proven them wrong, that he really is an elite QB, but he wasn't considered the all time great he is today when he first got his shot.

Terrell Davies was also a 6th round pick before his success. Where you come from doesn't indicate where you will go.

It is true that both Brady and Warner came out of nowhere in terms of their success, but that doesn't mean they weren't good. You wouldn't call Terrell Davies a scrub just because he was a 6th round pick, it just means that some people misjudged his potential.

gyldenlove
04-08-2009, 07:52 AM
I think Orton will be the guy they put at the helm to keep the ship straight during rebuilding. Once it's rebuilt, we'll get a new captain to go to war with. We've got a couple of years, yet. No need to panic.

I like that post.

Why do you need to rebuild when you have 2 bookend tackles in their young 20s, a really solid third year guard, a 25 year old QB who is already setting franchise records, the best WRs under 25, one of the best TE positions?

What we needed to rebuild was the defense, now we need to rebuild both. That is like taking your new car to the shop to get the engine fixed and then the mechanic takes out a blowtorch and cuts through the chassis and tells you now you need a whole new car.

TheReverend
04-08-2009, 07:58 AM
It is absurd that people think that Orton will be better than Cutler would have been in this offense. Cutler was a top 10 QB last season and given development and the pass happy system he would have been playing in, he had the potential to move into that elite top 3.

That being said, Orton's strengths more equally match McDaniels' offense. Orton is also going to benefit from one of the best young Olines and one of the best young WR tandems in the league. The bears offensive (pun intended) weapons are going to mitigate Cutlers strengths. (I'm curious to see Cutlers tantrum when Hester drops a ball)

Without the high draft pics that they traded to Denver, it will be several years before they can surround Cutler with the type of talent he was accustomed to here in Denver.

If you look back on last year, the Bears traded two firsts and a third for 5 touchdowns (Bears QB's . If I were prescient, that margin is going to be even less this year between Cutler and Orton. I'd wager to say that Orton will be less than a thousand yards, and less than 5 touchdowns away from where Cutler will finish the season.

I like Orton better than I liked Cutler, but lets not be naive in thinking Orton will be better than Cutler would have been in this system.

Will it, though?

How much better will the receiving options already in place look with someone under center that delivers the ball properly?

And they surrendered 2 1sts and a 3rd. Marshall was a 4th, Royal a 2nd, and Scheffler a 2nd, but they already have an excellent tight end, and Hester to stretch the field. IMO, they're one successful pick at a big body possession receiver away from being an outstanding receiving corps.

Surprised they don't have Torry Holt on speed dial.

Comparisons between Orton and Cutler are completely unfair, yet it's inevitable that they WILL come. I suppose it'll at least add another interesting element to how this will unfold over the next decade, eh?

baja
04-08-2009, 08:03 AM
It may or may not be Orton but their will be a quality signal caller in Denver and it will be someone that actually wants to be here.

gyldenlove
04-08-2009, 08:06 AM
It may or may not be Orton but their will be a quality signal caller in Denver and it will be someone that actually wants to be here.

For how long I wonder....

baja
04-08-2009, 09:25 AM
For how long I wonder....

So all of a sudden nobody wants to play in Denver in your view?

DBroncos4life
04-08-2009, 10:55 AM
I think the better Poll would be "How long till Denver fans turn on Orton".

RaiderH8r
04-08-2009, 10:58 AM
So all of a sudden nobody wants to play in Denver in your view?

This fan base has eviscerated every QB since Elway. Nothing divides the Denver fan base like the QB position. From Griese to Plummer to Cutler.

broncosteven
04-08-2009, 11:04 AM
This fan base has eviscerated every QB since Elway. Nothing divides the Denver fan base like the QB position. From Griese to Plummer to Cutler.

I am so glad I am not the only one bitching about how Bronco fans treat their QBs.

Some deserve it, some see "team leaders" like John Lynch pull the same stuff the year before and think that is how players play the $ game.

I find it hard to fault Cutler for being slighted when Lynch pulled the same thing the year before.

Plus players like Lance Briggs, Farver, and TO always on the front page what is a young kid supposed to think?

I think Leadership in the lockerroom or "Team Leaders" are things of the past. Just play on the field and win games or move on.

baja
04-08-2009, 11:06 AM
I am so glad I am not the only one b****ing about how Bronco fans treat their QBs.

Some deserve it, some see "team leaders" like John Lynch pull the same stuff the year before and think that is how players play the $ game.

I find it hard to fault Cutler for being slighted when Lynch pulled the same thing the year before.

Plus players like Lance Briggs, Farver, and TO always on the front page what is a young kid supposed to think?

I think Leadership in the lockerroom or "Team Leaders" are things of the past. Just play on the field and win games or move on.

Nah, jay was hit by a Bus...

DBroncos4life
04-08-2009, 11:08 AM
This fan base has eviscerated every QB since Elway. Nothing divides the Denver fan base like the QB position. From Griese to Plummer to Cutler.

You won't see many fans turning on QBs like they do in Denver. Really how often does a fan base go from pimping there third year QB that just had a Pro Bowl year to well you know what he just wasn't winning very many games for us. Hell I don't even think the Lions fans turned on Joey Harrington that fast.

Rigs11
04-08-2009, 11:13 AM
cutler wasn't that good anyways.yeah he threw for 4000 yards which is if how people judge qbs success, plummer threw for nearly as much in '04.Most of cutlers yards came in garbage time anyways, against the mediocre defenses that the afc west had.Give me a QB with wins over stats any day. that is something that Orton has over baby jay.

DBroncos4life
04-08-2009, 11:22 AM
cutler wasn't that good anyways.yeah he threw for 4000 yards which is if how people judge qbs success, plummer threw for nearly as much in '04.Most of cutlers yards came in garbage time anyways, against the mediocre defenses that the afc west had.Give me a QB with wins over stats any day. that is something that Orton has over baby jay.

Uhh

chaz
04-08-2009, 11:58 AM
cutler wasn't that good anyways.yeah he threw for 4000 yards which is if how people judge qbs success, plummer threw for nearly as much in '04.Most of cutlers yards came in garbage time anyways, against the mediocre defenses that the afc west had.Give me a QB with wins over stats any day. that is something that Orton has over baby jay.

:oyvey: keep drinking that koolaid

chaz
04-08-2009, 11:59 AM
I think Orton will be the guy they put at the helm to keep the ship straight during rebuilding. Once it's rebuilt, we'll get a new captain to go to war with. We've got a couple of years, yet. No need to panic.

Solid take roh-although how do you think the vets would take starting over at qb in a couple years? dawkins won't wait around and champ will be 33? 34?

oubronco
04-08-2009, 12:01 PM
cutler wasn't that good anyways.yeah he threw for 4000 yards which is if how people judge qbs success, plummer threw for nearly as much in '04.Most of cutlers yards came in garbage time anyways, against the mediocre defenses that the afc west had.Give me a QB with wins over stats any day. that is something that Orton has over baby jay.

:spit: are you for real Cutler will be all pro for years to come just watch

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:05 PM
The short answer is no. All things being equal, Cutler is more talented.

The real answer is yes because Cutler didn't want to be here and Orton does.

My friend, you are a master rationalizer.

A few weeks ago, this poll would have been thought a sick joke ... might've even been moved to the Butt.


That said, I am optimistic about Orton ... the McD offense is well-suited to smart quarterbacks of median skills.

Hotrod
04-08-2009, 12:16 PM
Page 5 ****ing shoot me

Nice work Baja

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:16 PM
My friend, you are a master rationalizer.

A few weeks ago, this poll would have been thought a sick joke ... might've even been moved to the Butt.


That said, I am optimistic about Orton ... the McD offense is well-suited to smart quarterbacks of median skills.

Of course a poll would have different a few weeks ago. We've found out a lot about Cutler's mentality that we had no way of knowing at the time. We weren't "privy to the new ****," to quote Jeff Lebowski. Things change, and it's perfectly reasonable to change opinions when new information comes to light.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Of course a poll would have different a few weeks ago. We've found out a lot about Cutler's mentality that we had no way of knowing at the time. We weren't "privy to the new ****," to quote Jeff Lebowski. Things change, and it's perfectly reasonable to change opinions when new information comes to light.

You might have topped Khan on the "Rationalization Meter."

Orton might do well in this offense, but he's nowhere near the quarterback Jay is. I got news for you guys: Kyle Orton is a very inaccurate passer.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:19 PM
You might have topped Khan on the "Rationalization Meter."

So, you aren't allowed to change your opinion when you find out new information? Is that you, George Bush?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:21 PM
So, you aren't allowed to change your opinion when you finds out new information? Is that you, George Bush?

The only new information you "found out" is that Cutler's gone and Orton's here.

You're basically saying, "you're either with us or you're against us." And THAT'S George W. Bush.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:22 PM
It's okay, though .... I like Orton a lot, too.

But I'll never delude myself that he's on (or above :~ohyah!:) the same level as Cutler.


It's all about objectivity, and fans are not supposed to be objective. By definition. So it's okay.

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 12:23 PM
No.

And Cutler wouldn't even have to mature to be more successful than Orton this year. If it were possible, give them both the new playbook (please, i know what you are going to say..) at the same time and give them both equal chances to get reps and Cutler wins in a landslide.

Orton had an offense that catered to him last year. It's called ball control. This favors the QB in that A. he doesn't have to do everything, B. the defense is usually playing the run, so he can catch them off guard.

Orton wasn't good last year.
Cutler was pretty solid last year.

I HOPE that all those votes for Orton are just optimism in the team more so than Orton..

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:24 PM
Orton might do well in this offense, but he's nowhere near the quarterback Jay is.

All things being equal, sure. But if Jay wasn't willing to buy into the offense, and Orton was, then Orton is a better fit. Do you not see the point here? Any has to buy into the offensive system in order for him to be effective in it. We are questioning whether or not he would have made that commitment.

I got news for you guys: Kyle Orton is a very inaccurate passer.

With the mediocre OL and garbage receivers he had in Chicago, sure. He will be in a much better situation to complete passes here. It will be interesting to compare the respective completion percentages of Orton and Cutler now that they've switched spots. I have a feeling Orton's will rise, and Jay's will drop. We'll see.

TheReverend
04-08-2009, 12:25 PM
The only new information you "found out" is that Cutler's gone and Orton's here.

You're basically saying, "you're either with us or you're against us." And THAT'S George W. Bush.

That's not true. Four seasons worth of football were just played in the past two weeks. Lots of new information to include into the same size Ha!

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 12:25 PM
The only new information you "found out" is that Cutler's gone and Orton's here.

You're basically saying, "you're either with us or you're against us." And THAT'S George W. Bush.

I had a professor that used to say that the OLD saying was, "If you're not against us, you're with us," until people like Bush turned it around..

"War is peace" is another good one...

The people who will never understand this are the same people who think Trent Reznor is REALLY in favor of bombing Iraqi's in his song "Capital G."

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:28 PM
All things being equal, sure. But if Jay wasn't willing to buy into the offense, and Orton was, then Orton is a better fit. Do you not see the point here?
I see the point you're trying to make ... but I disagree with your premise that "Jay wasn't willing to buy into the offense." I don't think the offense had even one-half of one perecent of relevane to this fiasco.

Nor do I agree with Khan that Jay "didn't want to be here." I think Jay and Josh's egos clashed. Jay reacted like a spoiled child, and Josh kept his cool. Unsurprisingly, Josh won.


With the mediocre OL and garbage receivers he had in Chicago, sure. He will be in a much better situation to complete passes here. It will be interesting to compare the respective completion percentages of Orton and Cutler now that they've switched spots. I have a feeling Orton's will rise, and Jay's will drop. We'll see.

Now THAT'S incisive logic, seriously. Orton will have the best young O-Line and the best young WR corps in the league.

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 12:29 PM
You might have topped Khan on the "Rationalization Meter."

Orton might do well in this offense, but he's nowhere near the quarterback Jay is. I got news for you guys: Kyle Orton is a very inaccurate passer.

Speaking of Khan, i remember him telling me that Obama was a bad fit because of his lack of experience. Funny how he is so pro-McDaniels/Xanders.

:strong:

Bronx33
04-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Speaking of Khan, i remember him telling me that Obama was a bad fit because of his lack of experience. Funny how he is so pro-McDaniels/Xanders.

:strong:


So your comparing a NFL COACHES JOB TO THAT OF THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD? :spit:

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Speaking of Khan, i remember him telling me that Obama was a bad fit because of his lack of experience. Funny how he is so pro-McDaniels/Xanders.

:strong:
True ... and that criticism goes to me, too. Just the other way around. I've based much of my Josh criticizing on his lack of experience, so I guess I'll cop to your quasi-hypocrisy accusation (bet Khan won't, though :~ohyah!:)


Nobody ever admits they're wrong on the Internet. Except me of course ;D

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:36 PM
The only new information you "found out" is that Cutler's gone and Orton's here.

No. Thew new information is that Jay sulks and packs it in if you don't kowtow to him. When McDaniels was signed, I was excited and would have guessed Cutler would be excited too with the opportunity to play in an offense that gives him the potential to put up the sorts of numbers Brady did in 2007. Instead, he sulked about the old regime leaving (might have even requested a trade if you believe Peter King), then went into full blown tantrum mode because his name popped up in trade conversations. Then, he refused to meet the front office halfway as they tried to work things out, refusing to return calls of even the owner. And, as you've pointed out, we top it off with his bizarre statement that he never wanted to be traded after demanding a trade at least once. So, you think about this guy who we knew had a gunslinger mentality to begin with. Now, we find out he has an emotionally volatile personality on top of that, and it's fair to wonder if he was willing to give that mentality up in favor of the more cool-headed, methodical approach this offense requires. How in the world can you say that is not new and important info when considering what sort of mentality Jay was going to carry onto the field?

You're basically saying, "you're either with us or you're against us." And THAT'S George W. Bush.

Bush considers it a weakness to change your mind about something, regardless of what new information comes to light. That's what you are doing.

Rigs11
04-08-2009, 12:36 PM
:oyvey: keep drinking that koolaid

meh. im a broncos fan not a cutler fan. If this is the way that the organization is going to go i am going to at least give them a chance to suceed.if anyone is drinking the kool aid it is you cutler cheerleaders.guy cant's even answer the damn phone and I am supposed to believe he will win us a SB?

summerdenver
04-08-2009, 12:38 PM
When McDaniels was signed, I was excited and would have guessed Cutler would be excited too with the opportunity to play in an offense that gives him the potential to put up the sorts of numbers Brady did in 2007. Instead, he sulked about the old regime leaving (might have even requested a trade if you believe Peter King),

Dude, your hatred for the guy is clouding your judgement. Does this guy sound disinteresed to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84QNxwyWzE

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:40 PM
Bush considers it a weakness to change your mind about something, regardless of what new information comes to light. That's what you are doing.

No, my opinion is that Jay is a better QB that Orton last year, this year, next year, every year. There is no "new information" about which of them is a better QB.

The sad part is that, implicit your quote there, is that Orton WILL BE a better this year than Jay would have. You cannot properly use speculation as the basis for a factual conclusion. You must use facts only.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:42 PM
I see the point you're trying to make ... but I disagree with your premise that "Jay wasn't willing to buy into the offense." I don't think the offense had even one-half of one perecent of relevane to this fiasco.

Not the system per se, but the man trying to implement the system. Was he willing to give McDaniels his full commitment? There is plenty of reason to doubt that. If he doesn't give McDaniels his full commitment, then as the offensive play designer and caller, Cutler would by extension not be committing to the offense.

Nor do I agree with Khan that Jay "didn't want to be here." I think Jay and Josh's egos clashed. Jay reacted like a spoiled child, and Josh kept his cool. Unsurprisingly, Josh won.

Agreed, though I think it had more to do with Jay's ego than McDaniels'.

Now THAT'S incisive logic, seriously. Orton will have the best young O-Line and the best young WR corps in the league.

I also forgot to point out the notorious winds that QBs have to deal with in Chicago, which certainly hinders accuracy. Cutler's howitzer should help negate that some, but it will be a factor.

DBroncos4life
04-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Is anyone else thinking that the rest of the league might be getting better at game planning vs McDs O?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:43 PM
REMEMBER THIS, COWBOYS:

Jay Cutler was all set to announce early entry for the NFL Draft in 2005. But a week or so before the announcement, a beloved Vanderbilt teammate was killed in an accident. Jay dropped everything to be there with his teammates at the funeral, and even cancelled his plans to announce. He came back for his senior year.

Now tell me he's a bad teammate.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:45 PM
REMEMBER THIS, COWBOYS:

Jay Cutler was a close teammate of two young Chicago Bears, both offensive stars who huddled with Jay every down at Vanderbilt. Jerry Angelo stated clearly that he was skittish about Jay's character while negotiating the trade. No doubt whatsoever he went to Williams and Bennett. After speaking to them he gave up a small ransom to get Jay.

Get it?

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Dude, your hatred for the guy is clouding your judgement. Does this guy sound disinteresed to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84QNxwyWzE

Did I say disinterested? I am pointing out the well established fact that Jay was very unhappy when Shanny and Bates got canned. He may have even requested a trade as a result (Peter King insists this is the case). Yes, there was a brief period where McDaniels talked him off the ledge, but after McDaniels had the goddamned nerve to even listen to trade proposals for him, Cutler went totally off the deep end.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:46 PM
REMEMBER THIS, COWBOYS:

Around here, Jay Cutler has been thought of as SUCH a loyal teammate, that he zones in on his draft classmates Tont Scheffler and Brandon Marshall. Some posters have been livid about his "tunnel vision" and over-exhibitions of loyalty to these guys.

See?

Northman
04-08-2009, 12:51 PM
Jay also ignored calls from his teammates which led them to wondering wtf?

See?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 12:51 PM
I also forgot to point out the notorious winds that QBs have to deal with in Chicago, which certainly hinders accuracy. Cutler's howitzer should help negate that some, but it will be a factor.
OMG You're right about that! LOL

Remember that game in 2005 or 06 where every kick sailed more sideways than forward? The kickers aimed field goals at the far right corner of the end zone, and the ball landed in the far left corner ... ROFL!

I dunno how many points the winds shaved off Kyle's comp%, but it's a good point.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:54 PM
No, my opinion is that Jay is a better QB that Orton last year, this year, next year, every year. There is no "new information" about which of them is a better QB.

Better QB is a relative to the circumstance, which is the point you seem to be missing. Once again, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, Cutler is of course the better QB. But, there is reason to believe he might not have given the new coach his full commitment, and by extension not fully bought into the offense. He also has a gunslinger mentality that is not conducive to this offense, which require a cool-headed, less risky mentality. If Jay did not commit to the offense and was not willing to change his gunslinger mentality on the field, then I don't see why it is so far-fetched to say that Orton would be a better fit.

The sad part is that, implicit your quote there, is that Orton WILL BE a better this year than Jay would have. You cannot properly use speculation as the basis for a factual conclusion. You must use facts only.

No, no, no. I have NEVER said that Orton WILL BE better this year than Jay would have. Maybe Jay would have given McDaniels his full commitment, and reigned in his gunslinger style. If that had been the case, then, yes, of course he would have been better But there is certainly reason to think he might not have. If he did not commit to McDaniels and the offense and continued trying to force the issue in the passing game, then that would not be conducive to the offense functioning efficiently, and a respectable guy who WAS committed to that mentality WOULD be more conducive to offensive success. What is so hard to understand here?

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 12:57 PM
OMG You're right about that! LOL

Remember that game in 2005 or 06 where every kick sailed more sideways than forward? The kickers aimed field goals at the far right corner of the end zone, and the ball landed in the far left corner ... ROFL!

I dunno how many points the winds shaved off Kyle's comp%, but it's a good point.

Yeah, I remember a few years ago when the football world sat askance as the Bears signed Brian Griese to a contract. His flaccid arm coupled with those unforgiving winds...that was the sort of lame-brained scheme that ought to get a GM fired.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:00 PM
Jay also ignored calls from his teammates which led them to wondering wtf?

See?
I dunno about teammates ... but he did ignore Bowlen, and that was emo-ego into a dirty diaper.

I think the owner's meeting was the key opening for Jay, and he missed it. Here's what I mean: Jay went way out on a limb like a spoiled child, and he need to save face to come back. Then at the owners' meetings, it was well-reported that Pat, Josh and Brian refused to discuss Jay. The room is filled with every single owner, GM and coach in the league ... and they clammed up! THAT WAS THE OPENING FOR JAY TO SAVE FACE! He could have held a presser saying, "they obviously don't want to trade me, so we're all gonna work to make this happen." He could've even held up picture of Josh holding the Cutler jersey at the presser ... everybody wouldda laughed and forgot the whole thing. Instead, he ignored that subtle olive branch, and refused Bowlen's calls. Dumb.



Honestly though, I made several great points above. I think any reasonable anti-Jay poster would acknowledge them as valid, seems sad nobody does ... but Jay coming back for his senior year, the two offensive teammates who obviously vouched for him in Chicago, and helping his draft classmates succeed. Those things MEAN something.

By the way ... in the history of football, no team has ever started three Vanderbilt Commodores, especially on the same side of the ball :~ohyah!:

baja
04-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Page 5 ****ing shoot me

Nice work Baja

Yes McD needs a team player that can read and react not take risks trying to make something happen ...60....43.48%




No Jay has all the talent he just needs to mature, his next contract will kill the cap ..........78...........56.52%




Voters: 138. You have already voted on this poll

summerdenver
04-08-2009, 01:06 PM
Did I say disinterested? I am pointing out the well established fact that Jay was very unhappy when Shanny and Bates got canned. He may have even requested a trade as a result (Peter King insists this is the case). Yes, there was a brief period where McDaniels talked him off the ledge, but after McDaniels had the goddamned nerve to even listen to trade proposals for him, Cutler went totally off the deep end.

I don't think its the trade talks that pushed Jay away, it is what Broncos did afterwards that alieanated Jay. Broncos took a confrontational attitude from the beginning.

Now, I am hearing posts from credible maners (most notably Kaylore) that Jay would not have come back even if Broncos did not take a confrontational stance. I don't know who to believe at this point as there was also news which suggested that Broncos mgt were not convinced Jay's game could be corrected and would have got rid of him anyway either this year or next year.

My take on this is that Jay is a emotional guy - emotional and young guy. He is the sort of kid, if you tell him you are my guy, he will run through a wall for you. He is not some kind of evil genius who plotted a elaborate scheme to get out of here as being potrayed here.


Simple explanation for this is that Jay did not believe he is Josh's guy and Josh did not do anything or atleast enough to remove this doubt from his mind.

baja
04-08-2009, 01:12 PM
You might have topped Khan on the "Rationalization Meter."

Orton might do well in this offense, but he's nowhere near the quarterback Jay is. I got news for you guys: Kyle Orton is a very inaccurate passer.

The clear character issue being exposed here is you and So Cal's propensity to take a statement made in conversation and decide what is means in an absolute iron clad no room for another interpretation manner then base an entire argument on your narrow interpretation and think you have proved a point. Interesting you both are lawyers.

colonelbeef
04-08-2009, 01:13 PM
I don't think its the trade talks that pushed Jay away, it is what Broncos did afterwards that alieanated Jay. Broncos took a confrontational attitude from the beginning.

Now, I am hearing posts from credible maners (most notably Kaylore) that Jay would not have come back even if Broncos did not take a confrontational stance. I don't know who to believe at this point as there was also news which suggested that Broncos mgt were not convinced Jay's game could be corrected and would have got rid of him anyway either this year or next year.

My take on this is that Jay is a emotional guy - emotional and young guy. He is the sort of kid, if you tell him you are my guy, he will run through a wall for you. He is not some kind of evil genius who plotted a elaborate scheme to get out of here as being potrayed here.


Simple explanation for this is that Jay did not believe he is Josh's guy and Josh did not do anything or atleast enough to remove this doubt from his mind.

good post.

baja
04-08-2009, 01:20 PM
True ... and that criticism goes to me, too. Just the other way around. I've based much of my Josh criticizing on his lack of experience, so I guess I'll cop to your quasi-hypocrisy accusation (bet Khan won't, though :~ohyah!:)


Nobody ever admits they're wrong on the Internet. Except me of course ;D

If I were ever wrong I would admit it.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 01:20 PM
I don't think its the trade talks that pushed Jay away, it is what Broncos did afterwards that alieanated Jay. Broncos took a confrontational attitude from the beginning.

Now, I am hearing posts from credible maners (most notably Kaylore) that Jay would not have come back even if Broncos did not take a confrontational stance. I don't know who to believe at this point as there was also news which suggested that Broncos mgt were not convinced Jay's game could be corrected and would have got rid of him anyway either this year or next year.

My take on this is that Jay is a emotional guy - emotional and young guy. He is the sort of kid, if you tell him you are my guy, he will run through a wall for you. He is not some kind of evil genius who plotted a elaborate scheme to get out of here as being potrayed here.


Simple explanation for this is that Jay did not believe he is Josh's guy and Josh did not do anything or atleast enough to remove this doubt from his mind.

Implicit here is that you believe Josh lacked the communication skills to explain his side and smooth things over with Jay. I have trouble buying that for this reason: Bowlen has made it clear that his initial plan was to replace Shanny with a defensive minded coach and keep the offensive staff in place. Yet, to use his words, McDaniels blew him away in the interview, vaulting himself from a fringe candidate to the top of the heap. I see no way he could have pulled this off if he lacked very strong communication skills. He obviously did an excellent job communicating his plan to Bowlen and selling him on it.

Cutler claims that in the face-to-face that McDaniels made it clear that he tried to get Cassel and wanted his own guy. Do you you really believe that McDaniels said anything of the kind? I don't buy it and can't believe anyone else does. McDaniels made numerous statements in the press saying he was committed to Jay and that he was his guy. He had no troubel communicating that in the press. I have trouble believing he didn't communicate the same in that meeting.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 01:23 PM
The clear character issue being exposed here is you and So Cal's propensity to take a statement made in conversation and decide what is means in an absolute iron clad no room for another interpretation manner then base an entire argument on your narrow interpretation and think you have proved a point. Interesting you both are lawyers.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Buff in particular is pretty bad about interpreting things a certain way and then refusing to consider alternate interpretations that are just as valid (more so, in some cases).

baja
04-08-2009, 01:29 PM
<b>No, my opinion is that Jay is a better QB that Orton last year, this year, next year, every year. There is no "new information" about which of them is a better QB. </b>

The sad part is that, implicit your quote there, is that Orton WILL BE a better this year than Jay would have. You cannot properly use speculation as the basis for a factual conclusion. You must use facts only.

You forgot the part about within the perimeters of the Josh McDaniels team first protect the ball there are no heros only soldiers system as it pertains to the Denver Broncos.

Jay was not on board with the concept because be figures he's the best that ever was and was too good to play that way.

That is why Orton is better in this unique situation only.

Northman
04-08-2009, 01:31 PM
I dunno about teammates ... but he did ignore Bowlen, and that was emo-ego into a dirty diaper.

I think the owner's meeting was the key opening for Jay, and he missed it. Here's what I mean: Jay went way out on a limb like a spoiled child, and he need to save face to come back. Then at the owners' meetings, it was well-reported that Pat, Josh and Brian refused to discuss Jay. The room is filled with every single owner, GM and coach in the league ... and they clammed up! THAT WAS THE OPENING FOR JAY TO SAVE FACE! He could have held a presser saying, "they obviously don't want to trade me, so we're all gonna work to make this happen." He could've even held up picture of Josh holding the Cutler jersey at the presser ... everybody wouldda laughed and forgot the whole thing. Instead, he ignored that subtle olive branch, and refused Bowlen's calls. Dumb.



Honestly though, I made several great points above. I think any reasonable anti-Jay poster would acknowledge them as valid, seems sad nobody does ... but Jay coming back for his senior year, the two offensive teammates who obviously vouched for him in Chicago, and helping his draft classmates succeed. Those things MEAN something.

By the way ... in the history of football, no team has ever started three Vanderbilt Commodores, especially on the same side of the ball :~ohyah!:


Oh, im not discrediting his past and thats great and all. But as we know its all about what have you done for me lately. There were some players who tried to contact Jay during the same time that Bowlen and McD did and got no response which they thought was disappointing. Never the less, i do expect his former teammates to stand up for him as thats the last thing they remember of the guy before he went to the draft.

baja
04-08-2009, 01:33 PM
REMEMBER THIS, COWBOYS:

Jay Cutler was a close teammate of two young Chicago Bears, both offensive stars who huddled with Jay every down at Vanderbilt. Jerry Angelo stated clearly that he was skittish about Jay's character while negotiating the trade. No doubt whatsoever he went to Williams and Bennett. After speaking to them he gave up a small ransom to get Jay.

Get it?

Interesting what kind of wood is your pulpit made of?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:40 PM
The clear character issue being exposed here is you and So Cal's propensity to take a statement made in conversation and decide what is means in an absolute iron clad no room for another interpretation manner then base an entire argument on your narrow interpretation and think you have proved a point. Interesting you both are lawyers.
Don't you think the fact we're both lawyers might mean we better understand manners of evidence and proof? You may not like lawyers, but they definitely don't hand out law degrees and bar cards on the corner.

I have speculated very often here in this fisaco, but I HAVE ALWAYS stated when I was speculating. I rarely say "iron clad" about anything, except stats. I think I said Josh's satement, "every football decision goes through me" was definitely an iron clad statement that he is in control, at least as compared to Xander's authority. TURNED OUT I WAS RIGHT ... Bowlen's letter to season ticket holders talked about "Josh's responsibility", "Josh's vision," "Josh's authority," and mentioned Xanders only onec - as a tack-on to Josh.

PLUS, Angelo of the Bears talked all about Josh and negotiating and soeaking and texting with Josh. Curious he never mentioned his GM counterpart Brian.


So I was right about that. But of course, none of the many people who shouted me down in there dropped a line to say I was right after all. hmmm...

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:43 PM
Interesting what kind of wood is your pulpit made of?

Damn you are stubborn ... why can't you just acknowledge these unselfish team-first examples?

Sad. I mean, you're my frined ... but denial is not just a river in Egypt, and making an admission doesn't mean you're a weak person. It means you're a strong person.

baja
04-08-2009, 01:53 PM
Don't you think the fact we're both lawyers might mean we better understand manners of evidence and proof? You may not like lawyers, but they definitely don't hand out law degrees and bar cards on the corner.

I have speculated very often here in this fisaco, but I HAVE ALWAYS stated when I was speculating. I rarely say "iron clad" about anything, except stats. I think I said Josh's satement, "every football decision goes through me" was definitely an iron clad statement that he is in control, at least as compared to Xander's authority. TURNED OUT I WAS RIGHT ... Bowlen's letter to season ticket holders talked about "Josh's responsibility", "Josh's vision," "Josh's authority," and mentioned Xanders only onec - as a tack-on to Josh.

PLUS, Angelo of the Bears talked all about Josh and negotiating and soeaking and texting with Josh. Curious he never mentioned his GM counterpart Brian.


So I was right about that. But of course, none of the many people who shouted me down in there dropped a line to say I was right after all. hmmm...

First of all you make an assumption I don't like lawyers and give a testy response about the required high intellect needed to pass the bar exam and all. Truth is I only stated that I find it interesting that you are both lawyers and argue in a similar manner which I see as convient and self serving but I never said or implied I do not like lawyers. Your assumption that I don't is a good example of my point.

Secondly the two examples you give above are perfect examples of the case I am making that to chose one of several possible interpretations and precede to build & extend your argument on only one of the many interpretations of the phrases in question as if it is gospel is flawed.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 01:54 PM
Don't you think the fact we're both lawyers might mean we better understand manners of evidence and proof? You may not like lawyers, but they definitely don't hand out law degrees and bar cards on the corner.

I have speculated very often here in this fisaco, but I HAVE ALWAYS stated when I was speculating. I rarely say "iron clad" about anything, except stats. I think I said Josh's satement, "every football decision goes through me" was definitely an iron clad statement that he is in control, at least as compared to Xander's authority. TURNED OUT I WAS RIGHT ... Bowlen's letter to season ticket holders talked about "Josh's responsibility", "Josh's vision," "Josh's authority," and mentioned Xanders only onec - as a tack-on to Josh.

PLUS, Angelo of the Bears talked all about Josh and negotiating and soeaking and texting with Josh. Curious he never mentioned his GM counterpart Brian.


So I was right about that. But of course, none of the many people who shouted me down in there dropped a line to say I was right after all. hmmm...

Oh, sure, you were right about that. It's been pretty clear that McD has been running the ship since the Goodman's walked the plank. I'm not sure I see the relevance with regards to the Cutler situation, unless you think he was attached at the hip with the Goodmans as well as Shanny.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Oh, sure, you were right about that. It's been pretty clear that McD has been running the ship since the Goodman's walked the plank. I'm not sure I see the relevance with regards to the Cutler situation, unless you think he was attached at the hip with the Goodmans as well as Shanny.

No, I just think his inexperiece was a contributor here. He had never negotiated a trade before the Cassel talks, and he had never dealt with an agent (officially) before Bus Cook first called.

I truly believe Josh lied/misled Jay when they first spoke - naively thinking he could get away with it. He didn't realize the network he was dealing with and how word spreads ... that's my guess, anyway. Sad part is, Josh didn't do anything wrong (except neglecting to keep Jay in the loop).

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Oh, im not discrediting his past and thats great and all. But as we know its all about what have you done for me lately. There were some players who tried to contact Jay during the same time that Bowlen and McD did and got no response which they thought was disappointing. Never the less, i do expect his former teammates to stand up for him as thats the last thing they remember of the guy before he went to the draft.

Great post ... thanks for acknowledging those examples. I'll acknowledge that "what he did for us lately" was crap his drawers and act like a child. But that doesn't mean Josh is blameless. Jay could've (and prolly does) have a legit beef, he just WAY over-reacted.

I'm quite certain the Angelo promised Bennett and Williams COMPLETE confidentiality in the event they had bad things to say, though. And obviously they didn't.

Fill me in a bit on the teammates he did not call back, I only dimly recall Scheffler or maybe Marshall saying that.

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 02:04 PM
No, I just think his inexperiece was a contributor here. He had never negotiated a trade before the Cassel talks, and he had never dealt with an agent (officially) before Bus Cook first called.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that McD had experience working in the Pats personnel department, so he's seen first hand how these things are handled.

I truly believe Josh lied/misled Jay when they first spoke - naively thinking he could get away with it. He didn't realize the network he was dealing with and how word spreads ... that's my guess, anyway. Sad part is, Josh didn't do anything wrong (except neglecting to keep Jay in the loop).

McDaniels has never wavered on his version of events, and nothing beyond "anonymous sources" has come to light to contradict that version. In fact, Belichek is the only other involved party to speak out, and he essentially verifies McDs version by saying he never got any offer at all other than KCs offer of a 2nd rounder for Cassel and Vrabel. So, I don't see much compelling evidence that any lies were told to Jay.

baja
04-08-2009, 02:07 PM
Damn you are stubborn ... why can't you just acknowledge these unselfish team-first examples?

Sad. I mean, you're my frined ... but denial is not just a river in Egypt, and making an admission doesn't mean you're a weak person. It means you're a strong person.

I am not in denial about anything.

You can not apply one example of good behavior to his actions for the rest of his life.

Bundy was a boy scout.

summerdenver
04-08-2009, 02:10 PM
Implicit here is that you believe Josh lacked the communication skills to explain his side and smooth things over with Jay. I have trouble buying that for this reason: Bowlen has made it clear that his initial plan was to replace Shanny with a defensive minded coach and keep the offensive staff in place. Yet, to use his words, McDaniels blew him away in the interview, vaulting himself from a fringe candidate to the top of the heap. I see no way he could have pulled this off if he lacked very strong communication skills. He obviously did an excellent job communicating his plan to Bowlen and selling him on it.

Cutler claims that in the face-to-face that McDaniels made it clear that he tried to get Cassel and wanted his own guy. Do you you really believe that McDaniels said anything of the kind? I don't buy it and can't believe anyone else does. McDaniels made numerous statements in the press saying he was committed to Jay and that he was his guy. He had no troubel communicating that in the press. I have trouble believing he didn't communicate the same in that meeting.

I am not trying to analyse the specifics of the situation but questioning the approach taken by Broncos. I am not even trying to discuss who is lying here. Irrespective of what transpired, you don't leave your player to dry in the media whether its Jay cutler or some other player of lesser standing on the team.

He is part of your family and you should go to fight with any one who is trying to discredit your player whether its a star or not. Broncos did not treat it like that they potrayed it as team vs star from the beginning. They did not issue a single statement to support Jay in the media while he was being roasted uin the media. The first statement Josh made saying Jay is my QB is one month later at the owners meetings and by that time Jay has already decided that he is not coming back.

TheDave
04-08-2009, 02:12 PM
Awesome... another thread implodes into a Jay vs. Josh debate.

Maybe we could set up a specific thread so that the same 5-10 people could argue about the same quotes and timeline until hell freezes over.

Bronx33
04-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Awesome... another thread implodes into a Jay vs. Josh debate.
Maybe we could set up a specific thread so that the same 5-10 people could argue about the same quotes and timeline until hell freezes over.


Name just one thread on the mane that has stayed on topic ever. :spit:

TheDave
04-08-2009, 03:15 PM
Name just one thread on the mane that has stayed on topic ever. :spit:

Evolution V. ID... We can go 20+ pages without changing 1 person's mind or going off topic. ;D

BroncoInferno
04-08-2009, 03:16 PM
Evolution V. ID... We can go 20+ pages without changing 1 person's mind or going off topic. ;D

Abortion threads as well...;D

Lolad
04-08-2009, 03:30 PM
One of the things that I think will surprise you is how much better Orton might be at check downs. He seems to make up his mind much more quickly that he will take 5-10 yards, rather than staring down his long distance receivers. And, he does a pretty decent job of "laying in" the deep pass along the sideline.

If Cutler used check downs as much as Peyton manning, he would look a lot more like Peyton Manning. Orton at least knows how to use his brains to extend drives - especially by chipping away. Now, do we have the talent at RB to do something with that?

Could Cutler do these things much better than Orton - hell yes. Does he do them - hell no.

ok. You didn't watch tape I can tell. Orton did no extend drives because he checked off too many times. He loves the dump passes but can't throw the deep ball if his life depended on it.

Lolad
04-08-2009, 03:37 PM
That and the picks makes us better quicker.

I can tell you're an optimist and all rationale has left you. How many 1st rd picks mature and show their worth? You're just so sure, can you buy me some lotto tickets?

The bears got a guaranteed "proven" player. We get "unproven" players that have a high bust rate. In the end I hope I'm wrong and you're right. If we go 1/3 this will be the failure of all trades in NFL history

baja
04-08-2009, 04:46 PM
I can tell you're an optimist and all rationale has left you. How many 1st rd picks mature and show their worth? You're just so sure, can you buy me some lotto tickets?

The bears got a guaranteed "proven" player. We get "unproven" players that have a high bust rate. In the end I hope I'm wrong and you're right. If we go 1/3 this will be the failure of all trades in NFL history

jay throws a pretty ball that we all agree, where you and I separate is I don't think Jay is all that proven in other important areas such as leadership. Right now he could either become the next Elway or the next Jeff George.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 05:43 PM
I am not in denial about anything.

You can not apply one example of good behavior to his actions for the rest of his life.

Bundy was a boy scout.

Good point, I don't deny any of that ... I'm just pointing out that he has a solid history of team play and tightness with teammates. IN THE EVENT it eventually turns out Josh really was stonewalling/lying to Jay, then we can say this one Jay instance of crazy, spoiled, diaper-tantrum behavior might've been at least somewhat understandable.

I can't get over the feeling that Josh put up a real tough-guy barrier in that Saturday meeting. I Josh could've smoothed it over right then and there behind closed doors. BUt he did not.

Jay behaved very, very badly. But his history shows very little of that. The other "examples" of Jay behavior, the Rivers stuff, the Elway comment, I kinda like that stuff ... I like a QB who's ballsy.

Br0nc0Buster
04-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Good point, I don't deny any of that ... I'm just pointing out that he has a solid history of team play and tightness with teammates. IN THE EVENT it eventually turns out Josh really was stonewalling/lying to Jay, then we can say this one Jay instance of crazy, spoiled, diaper-tantrum behavior might've been at least somewhat understandable.

I can't get over the feeling that Josh put up a real tough-guy barrier in that Saturday meeting. I Josh could've smoothed it over right then and there behind closed doors. BUt he did not.

Jay behaved very, very badly. But his history shows very little of that. The other "examples" of Jay behavior, the Rivers stuff, the Elway comment, I kinda like that stuff ... I like a QB who's ballsy.

Players say he acts like a douche(on the opposing team)
Have heard that from people who have supposedly seen him in person in Denver as well, that he is a douche
Also Lynch said he was a "loner" in the lockerroom

chaz
04-08-2009, 06:41 PM
meh. im a broncos fan not a cutler fan. If this is the way that the organization is going to go i am going to at least give them a chance to suceed.if anyone is drinking the kool aid it is you cutler cheerleaders.guy cant's even answer the damn phone and I am supposed to believe he will win us a SB?

I'm not a Cutler cheerleader, I'm merely conscious-and that's all it takes to realize Jay is the much better QB. I'm not abandoning the Broncos, and I hope like hell McD can make Orton successful--but he will never be on Cutler's level.

chaz
04-08-2009, 06:45 PM
Better QB is a relative to the circumstance, which is the point you seem to be missing. Once again, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, Cutler is of course the better QB. But, there is reason to believe he might not have given the new coach his full commitment, and by extension not fully bought into the offense. He also has a gunslinger mentality that is not conducive to this offense, which require a cool-headed, less risky mentality. If Jay did not commit to the offense and was not willing to change his gunslinger mentality on the field, then I don't see why it is so far-fetched to say that Orton would be a better fit.

Not so. Jay's commitment to winning is not and should not be in question. He comes in on off days, offseason, etc because he is driven to win. If he was here, he would have busted his ass for the Broncos regardless of the coach-he plays for his teammates!Booya!.

.

My take on this is that Jay is a emotional guy - emotional and young guy. He is the sort of kid, if you tell him you are my guy, he will run through a wall for you. He is not some kind of evil genius who plotted a elaborate scheme to get out of here as being potrayed here.


Simple explanation for this is that Jay did not believe he is Josh's guy and Josh did not do anything or atleast enough to remove this doubt from his mind.

This is a fantastic post-spot on.

baja
04-08-2009, 07:15 PM
Good point, I don't deny any of that ... I'm just pointing out that he has a solid history of team play and tightness with teammates. IN THE EVENT it eventually turns out Josh really was stonewalling/lying to Jay, then we can say this one Jay instance of crazy, spoiled, diaper-tantrum behavior might've been at least somewhat understandable.

I can't get over the feeling that Josh put up a real tough-guy barrier in that Saturday meeting. I Josh could've smoothed it over right then and there behind closed doors. BUt he did not.

Jay behaved very, very badly. But his history shows very little of that. The other "examples" of Jay behavior, the Rivers stuff, the Elway comment, I kinda like that stuff ... I like a QB who's ballsy.

I understood Jay being pissed about being considered in trade talks but after 3 or 4 weeks went by not so much.

The most known character in this dance for me is Pat Bowlen, I have a twenty year time span of paying attention to his act. I have grown to respect him (public speaking aside ) I trust Mr. Bowlen to make tough and sound decisions. I agree with the Firing of Mike Shanahan and I have very high expectations of Josh McDaniels, I'm impressed with all his public team moves so far. In my opinion the only questionable act to date is of course the Jay Cutler saga. The Cutler & Rivers pissing matches gave pause for concern and that concern has grown from that time through all of this. I see this as a Cutler issue not a McDaniels issue. As I have pondered this saga I see a very gutsy and capable coach and a QB with 'Warning Will Robertson' level of question marks. I am thrilled we got Orton and all the picks. I think McD dumped a problem at the pinnacle of his value.

I know I will get to eat major crow for this post if I am wrong but that's the way I see it..

Circle Orange
04-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Yeah, I remember a few years ago when the football world sat askance as the Bears signed Brian Griese to a contract. His flaccid arm coupled with those unforgiving winds...that was the sort of lame-brained scheme that ought to get a GM fired.


LOL, noodles go with soup on a cold day...

Actually, a strong arm is hindered by throws INTO the wind, or ACROSS the direction it blows (passes sail like crazy). Most of the time you want to throw with the wind for distance and accuracy.

Dedhed
04-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Not so. Jay's commitment to winning is not and should not be in question. He comes in on off days, offseason, etc because he is driven to win. If he was here, he would have busted his ass for the Broncos regardless of the coach-he plays for his teammates!Booya!.



This is a fantastic post-spot on.

That's all great, but it amounts to nothing if he can't keep himself from ignoring the wide open check-down on Sundays.

Circle Orange
04-08-2009, 08:00 PM
I'm still amazed at how people assume Cutler will have brilliant success, or had brilliant success in denver just because of a strong arm. I still fail to see anyone explain what he brings to the table that causes this breathless admiration. For a guy that never made many crucial plays with the season on the line, he gets an awful lot of credit for looking good losing (becaws of that bad ol' defense! Aw.)

Bah. He's the bear's problem now. :~ohyah!:

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 08:40 PM
I'm still amazed at how people assume Cutler will have brilliant success, or had brilliant success in denver just because of a strong arm. I still fail to see anyone explain what he brings to the table that causes this breathless admiration. For a guy that never made many crucial plays with the season on the line, he gets an awful lot of credit for looking good losing (becaws of that bad ol' defense! Aw.)

Bah. He's the bear's problem now. :~ohyah!:

Does it occur to you that six weeks ago, you would have laughed off anyone else who would write that? Heckled and insulted the poster? The only difference now is the uniforms they're wearing. That at least you should admit. Nothing wrong with being a fan, but don't delude yourself.

And you can't be serious, "never made many crucial plays with the season on the line." How about Cleveland? We were up against it after three quarters on the road in that game. That was the season right there. Atlanta, the Jets. Jay is one of the very best 3rd down and 4th quarter QBs in the league over 2007-08.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:06 PM
Does it occur to you that six weeks ago, you would have laughed off anyone else who would write that? Heckled and insulted the poster? The only difference now is the uniforms they're wearing. That at least you should admit. Nothing wrong with being a fan, but don't delude yourself.

And you can't be serious, "never made many crucial plays with the season on the line." How about Cleveland? We were up against it after three quarters on the road in that game. That was the season right there. Atlanta, the Jets. Jay is one of the very best 3rd down and 4th quarter QBs in the league over 2007-08.

Excellent post ... Rep.

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 10:18 PM
Excellent post ... Rep.

Right before I read your previous post, i said to myself, "Man, BroncoBuff really seems to be a one-man crusade these days."

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
I'm still amazed at how people assume Cutler will have brilliant success, or had brilliant success in denver just because of a strong arm. I still fail to see anyone explain what he brings to the table that causes this breathless admiration. For a guy that never made many crucial plays with the season on the line, he gets an awful lot of credit for looking good losing (becaws of that bad ol' defense! Aw.)

Bah. He's the bear's problem now. :~ohyah!:

You're an idiot.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
Right before I read your previous post, i said to myself, "Man, BroncoBuff really seems to be a one-man crusade these days."

Hahaha ROFL!

You got me, sheriff!


Without the avatars, sometimes you can't tell who's saying what unless you make a point of focusing on the name ...

I thought I could maybe bump/agree with myself without anybody noticing ... :~ohyah!:

Atwater His Ass
04-08-2009, 11:28 PM
Does it occur to you that six weeks ago, you would have laughed off anyone else who would write that? Heckled and insulted the poster? The only difference now is the uniforms they're wearing. That at least you should admit. Nothing wrong with being a fan, but don't delude yourself.

And you can't be serious, "never made many crucial plays with the season on the line." How about Cleveland? We were up against it after three quarters on the road in that game. That was the season right there. Atlanta, the Jets. Jay is one of the very best 3rd down and 4th quarter QBs in the league over 2007-08.

This is bascially what a few of us have been saying during this entire process.

I just keep coming back to all these guys that say ****ing Kyle Orton is the answer how they would have reacted to that at the end of last season. Not 1 poster here would have said, "well you know, Cutler is overrated and only has a big arm to his credit, so ya, I think we should go after a guy like Orton and get some high picks to build our defense with. Ya, good plan, I like it."

I remeber all the posts talking about how great Cutler was on 3rd downs and his 4th qtr QB rating and how awesome he was because of it, regardless of wins and losses, it's a team game you know! Now these same douchbags have 100% filp-flopped on their stance. It's sickening.

It's been an eye opening experience to see just how band-wagon delusional orange color glasses wearing most of the posters here really are.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 11:32 PM
It's been an eye opening experience to see just how band-wagon delusional orange color glasses wearing most of the posters here really are.

Brother, if I could rep you a million on that, you'd have it ... nicely said.

rastaman
04-09-2009, 04:10 AM
The Broncos are screwed with Orton as the starter this season....plain and simple. But we also know Orton is just a stop gap solution until McD can try to recover from his fiasco of trying to trade Cutler.

I expect next season McD does everything possible to pry Cassel away from the Chiefs. And Bowlen the Sheep will be 100% behind this move.

Orton = Steve Deberg.

fontaine
04-09-2009, 04:40 AM
I think it's hilarious that some people are thinking Cutler wouldn't have been good for McD and his offense etc etc.

So you're telling me an offensive guru who supposedly excels at QBs can't make use of a pro-bowl type QB with great mobility, pocket presence and rocket arm? If that's the case the we just made the worst coaching hire getting a guy who's system is so rigid it can only incorporate a certain type of QB.

It's even funnier when you start reading all these new criticisms about Jay not checking down etc etc. Yeah, we all loved that dink and dunk check down offense so much with Griese right when everyone was asking for a strong armed QB that could heave the ball downfield.

At this rate, in three years the same people will be complaining about how slow and boring our offense is that checks down all the time and will be wishing to the next strong armed QB etc etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

baja
04-09-2009, 06:53 AM
Earth to the last three posters Jay Cutler doesn't want to be a Denver Bronco

How did you feel when Quiterson didn't want to be a Bronco.

If your reaction to Cutler is different than your reaction to Quiterson please don't talk about hypocrites.

Circle Orange
04-09-2009, 07:09 AM
You're an idiot.

Not really, snooky.

But I will say this, all excuses will be put to rest this year. I guess I wait until someone has a career before I put them in the hall of fame, silly me. can Jay be successful? Of course. But all I say is, wait until the season is on the line. The team collapse late can't be ignored as if it never happened. And you can't pretend it was only because of the defense. If that's true and they still lost those games, what the hell was Cutler doing in the meantime? Having coffee?

Yes, the defense stunk. That being said, how many games were they utterly blown out in? I know they laid eggs against the Pats and Raiders. Anyone else? Jay will not have the same offensive line that gives him time to do his thing. chicago is pathetic with wideouts, and that offensive coordinater is offensive, to say the least. That and he's Norv Turner's brother. Nuff said.

oubronco
04-09-2009, 07:15 AM
I think it's hilarious that some people are thinking Cutler wouldn't have been good for McD and his offense etc etc.

So you're telling me an offensive guru who supposedly excels at QBs can't make use of a pro-bowl type QB with great mobility, pocket presence and rocket arm? If that's the case the we just made the worst coaching hire getting a guy who's system is so rigid it can only incorporate a certain type of QB.

It's even funnier when you start reading all these new criticisms about Jay not checking down etc etc. Yeah, we all loved that dink and dunk check down offense so much with Griese right when everyone was asking for a strong armed QB that could heave the ball downfield.

At this rate, in three years the same people will be complaining about how slow and boring our offense is that checks down all the time and will be wishing to the next strong armed QB etc etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

very well said :thanku: but we will never find out how Cutler would've been in Wonder boys system he really fugged this up

baja
04-09-2009, 07:23 AM
Oh I see now, because Cutler is a much better player than Quiterson he gets to play by a different set of rules. Cuter not answering the calls from Bowlen is Josh McDaniels fault OK I got it now.

oubronco
04-09-2009, 07:34 AM
Yea and this guy is going to take us to the promise land...........Right

baja
04-09-2009, 07:36 AM
There at least 1000 times a day a camera could catch you in a pose like that

TheReverend
04-09-2009, 07:45 AM
Oh I see now, because Cutler is a much better player than Quiterson he gets to play by a different set of rules. Cuter not answering the calls from Bowlen is Josh McDaniels fault OK I got it now.

That's such a different set of circumstances it's ridiculous...

oubronco
04-09-2009, 07:53 AM
I'm just sayin that if Mcd wouldn't have had such a hardon for one year wonder Cassel and would've just been happy to have a QB that just came off a pro bowl year and what he could've done this year with him we wouldn't even be in this mess with Orton and Simms

Lolad
04-09-2009, 07:53 AM
Not really, snooky.

But I will say this, all excuses will be put to rest this year. I guess I wait until someone has a career before I put them in the hall of fame, silly me. can Jay be successful? Of course. But all I say is, wait until the season is on the line. The team collapse late can't be ignored as if it never happened. And you can't pretend it was only because of the defense. If that's true and they still lost those games, what the hell was Cutler doing in the meantime? Having coffee?

Yes, the defense stunk. That being said, how many games were they utterly blown out in? I know they laid eggs against the Pats and Raiders. Anyone else? Jay will not have the same offensive line that gives him time to do his thing. chicago is pathetic with wideouts, and that offensive coordinater is offensive, to say the least. That and he's Norv Turner's brother. Nuff said.

Funnyyiu would bringup the Patriot game. But I've watched the game a coupleof times. And I can remember 2 early turnovers by a RB in or near the redzone that completely screwed the offense. Plus the fact that Jay injured him thumb. Oh boy how we forget the most importantof details.

If I had the time I would dig up all the old post of you jay bashers just to prove you guys are a bunch flip-floppers. It wouldve been blasphemous to talk bad about anyone on offense at the end of the year.

baja
04-09-2009, 07:56 AM
Jay asked to be traded, didn't answer his team mates phone calls, didn't answer Bowlen's calls, was reassured several times by the coach and ownership he was our guy and still was leaving the team twisting in the wind when he has a new offense to learn, hell he did not even have his play book with him for the weeks he was in tenn.Yet this is all McD's fault....

oubronco
04-09-2009, 08:02 AM
Jay asked to be traded, didn't answer his team mates phone calls, didn't answer Bowlen's calls, was reassured several times by the coach and ownership he was our guy and still was leaving the team twisting in the wind when he has a new offense to learn, hell he did not even have his play book with him for the weeks he was in tenn.Yet this is all McD's fault....

Jay didn't trust him after all the lie's he had fed him and I don't blame him for feeling the way he did but he could've handled better for sure. The thing is it has become the way to get out of a situation the players don't want to be in I'm in the boat that if you sign a contract you honor that contract and then if you don't like your situation then move on but bitching and whining your way out is unexceptable to me but I don't blame him for wanting to get away from Mcd after he lied to his face

BroncoInferno
04-09-2009, 08:03 AM
This is bascially what a few of us have been saying during this entire process.

I just keep coming back to all these guys that say ****ing Kyle Orton is the answer how they would have reacted to that at the end of last season. Not 1 poster here would have said, "well you know, Cutler is overrated and only has a big arm to his credit, so ya, I think we should go after a guy like Orton and get some high picks to build our defense with. Ya, good plan, I like it."

I remeber all the posts talking about how great Cutler was on 3rd downs and his 4th qtr QB rating and how awesome he was because of it, regardless of wins and losses, it's a team game you know! Now these same douchbags have 100% filp-flopped on their stance. It's sickening.

It's been an eye opening experience to see just how band-wagon delusional orange color glasses wearing most of the posters here really are.

What don't you thick-skulls get about the fact that we have learned eye-opening things about Cutler this offseason that we didn't know before? Of course our opinion has changed with the new insights! At the end of the season, I knew he was a little hot-headed and immature, but I had no idea the ridiculous extent to which it went. So, yes, I now (rightly) question if this guy would have bought into a system that requires him to be cool-headed and make safe decisions. How could any rational person not question that after what we've seen from him the last couple of months? If he was not willing to buy in and execute the offense, then a modestly gifted QB who WAS willing to buy in and execute the offense becomes a better fit. What the hell is so hard to understand about that? It seems pretty logical to me. Of course, if Cutler DID buy in and DID commit himself to the offense, reigning in his gunslinger mentality and making the safe throw to the open man, playing with in the structure of the offense...of course he's the superior QB for the offense. But there is CLEARLY reason to question whether or not he would have done that. Of course, we'll never know now.

baja
04-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Jay didn't trust him after all the lie's he had fed him and I don't blame him for feeling the way he did but he could've handled better for sure. The thing is it has become the way to get out of a situation the players don't want to be in I'm in the boat that if you sign a contract you honor that contract and then if you don't like your situation then move on but b****ing and whining your way out is unexceptable to me but I don't blame him for wanting to get away from Mcd after he lied to his face

What's clear is we all will never agree. My take is McDaniels listened to trade offers that never even got to Bowlen's desk they we so preliminary and this is justification for Jay & Bus' actions??? If Jay was a lesser player you ALL would be nailing him to the wall. I know who the hypocrites are here and it's not the ones calling jay out for his actions.

Bottom line he didn't want to be a Bronco and manufactured a reason to quit the team what part of that don't you get.

Br0nc0Buster
04-09-2009, 08:41 AM
Jay didnt answer phonecalls from his teammates or coaches.

Jay didnt want to be here, so we moved on.

I dont see anyone claiming Orton is the superior player, just that we are trying to make the best of a bad situation.

If Jay wanted to be here, he wouldnt of ignored the owner.

Orton is our qb now, well assuming he wins in camp, and I dont see how it is ridiculous to think he could do well in this offense.

I see no reason why Orton cant at least be the player Cassel is in this system.

oubronco
04-09-2009, 09:11 AM
What's clear is we all will never agree. My take is McDaniels listened to trade offers that never even got to Bowlen's desk they we so preliminary and this is justification for Jay & Bus' actions??? If Jay was a lesser player you ALL would be nailing him to the wall. I know who the hypocrites are here and it's not the ones calling jay out for his actions.

Bottom line he didn't want to be a Bronco and manufactured a reason to quit the team what part of that don't you get.

Oh I get it don't mistake that I'm just sayin I don't blame him for not believing or trusting Mcd and I think Cook was behind this crap but Mcd wanted Cassel before he took this job for sure

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 08:48 PM
I think it's hilarious that some people are thinking Cutler wouldn't have been good for McD and his offense etc etc.

So you're telling me an offensive guru who supposedly excels at QBs can't make use of a pro-bowl type QB with great mobility, pocket presence and rocket arm? If that's the case the we just made the worst coaching hire getting a guy who's system is so rigid it can only incorporate a certain type of QB.

It's even funnier when you start reading all these new criticisms about Jay not checking down etc etc. Yeah, we all loved that dink and dunk check down offense so much with Griese right when everyone was asking for a strong armed QB that could heave the ball downfield.

At this rate, in three years the same people will be complaining about how slow and boring our offense is that checks down all the time and will be wishing to the next strong armed QB etc etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Serioulsy. This board is just full of internet football armchair QB types. Then when we get lucky enough to have an actual guy liek SoCal that knows something about football, he gets run off the board by the pitch fork carrying retards.

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 08:52 PM
What don't you thick-skulls get about the fact that we have learned eye-opening things about Cutler this offseason that we didn't know before? Of course our opinion has changed with the new insights! At the end of the season, I knew he was a little hot-headed and immature, but I had no idea the ridiculous extent to which it went. So, yes, I now (rightly) question if this guy would have bought into a system that requires him to be cool-headed and make safe decisions. How could any rational person not question that after what we've seen from him the last couple of months? If he was not willing to buy in and execute the offense, then a modestly gifted QB who WAS willing to buy in and execute the offense becomes a better fit. What the hell is so hard to understand about that? It seems pretty logical to me. Of course, if Cutler DID buy in and DID commit himself to the offense, reigning in his gunslinger mentality and making the safe throw to the open man, playing with in the structure of the offense...of course he's the superior QB for the offense. But there is CLEARLY reason to question whether or not he would have done that. Of course, we'll never know now.

Really? I seem to remeber a guy that put 4500 yards and 25 TDs in his 2nd year as a starter. Not to mention his 3rd down efficiency and 4th qtr play. I'll hazard a guess and say that his on field performance speaks for itself and Jay would have been fine in McD's offensive scheme.

And much like what Fontaine posted earlier, if McD can't work with a guy like Cutler, then well, he was the wrong man for the job.

baja
04-09-2009, 09:21 PM
Serioulsy. This board is just full of internet football armchair QB types. Then when we get lucky enough to have an actual guy liek SoCal that knows something about football, he gets run off the board by the pitch fork carrying retards.

So Cal was on the ledge before the trade, he never made one post after the trade was announced. No one drove him away.

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 09:50 PM
So Cal was on the ledge before the trade, he never made one post after the trade was announced. No one drove him away.

k hoss.

Broncos4tw
04-09-2009, 10:44 PM
Meh.. I wouldn't get all over each other, we gots we what gots now.

I wasn't happy with the move, I am dreading this season (I mean cripes, I got a 50" plasma.. good timing there >.< ), but I'm a fan through it all. I'll give this new crew the benefit of the doubt through the draft. If they badly bungle that, then I'll go ballistic.

Popps
04-09-2009, 10:44 PM
So Cal was on the ledge before the trade, he never made one post after the trade was announced. No one drove him away.

What happened to that dude, anyway.

I liked him. He was a little pathetic with his Cutler crybaby stuff, but more often than not, he was a stand-up guy. Plus, when he wasn't ranting about the end-times, he provided some very solid football takes.

He went downhill since this whole thing happened, but I really thought he'd get over it and get back to being a great fan and solid poster.

Did he formally bail, or just on hiatus?

SoCalBronco
04-09-2009, 10:55 PM
So Cal was on the ledge before the trade, he never made one post after the trade was announced. No one drove him away.

Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

DBroncos4life
04-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

I feel your pain. I didn't get called out for not being a fan but Im in the same boat you are. Not one part of me believes a less talented QB would be better for a system. Even more so when you look at Brady's numbers vs Cassel's.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

hey welcome back ;D I'm almost glad to see the pic of Nixon but I'm sure that will heal up and go away. ;D

Popps
04-09-2009, 11:27 PM
SoCal,

FWIW, I don't think most of us truly questioned your fandom. There ARE absolutely those around here who I truly believe HOPE the team fails to justify their positions. You're not one of them.

Your quality posts are missed around here. You're way off-base on this whole thing, and I think time will play that out. I also think you're one of the few stand-up guys that will come in and say "I was wrong," if that proves to be the case.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:29 PM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

Well you gotta get up for the draft

2 1sts a 2nd 2 3rds 2 4ths a 5th 2 6ths 2 7ths.

baja
04-09-2009, 11:33 PM
BTW So Cal I started a thread about you, it's great I would link it but I cant find it.

It's called;

Hey you guys dissn So. Cal. ......

or some close to that.

footstepsfrom#27
04-10-2009, 12:10 AM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.
Take it for what it is...a badge of honor.

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Well you gotta get up for the draft

2 1sts a 2nd 2 3rds 2 4ths a 5th 2 6ths 2 7ths.

which world did we get 2 4ths and 2 6ths from ?

baja
04-10-2009, 12:19 AM
which world did we get 2 4ths and 2 6ths from ?

I was fishing to hook So Cal if you must know.;D

DBBBSBS
04-10-2009, 12:21 AM
I was fishing to hook So Cal if you must know.;D

Ha ha ha... may be by the end of day one.. we might have those, if we wheel and deal.. :thanku:

Atwater His Ass
04-10-2009, 04:10 AM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

IMO the lowest form of attack on this board is questiong one's fanhood. Espcially when it's because you are critical of the front office. It's the fan's responsibility to question the FO and not blindly follow along.

The guys on this board, of which MANY are in this thread, should be ****ing ashamed of making you the figure head of their crusade. And the bandwagon sheep posters that went along with it can suck it as well.

The funny thing about it is after a few months, these same dbags that called out your fanhood will be riding your jock when you start posting again, like they forgot all the stupid bull**** they pulled because they are jsut internert bandwagon idiots.

I'm in the same boat as you. I can't imagine how the FO could have ****ed this up anymore than they did. I'm not excitied for the draft. How could you be? We more or less gutted our scouting department at the absolute worst time to do so, but keep that quiet man, no one wants to hear about it.

I bleed orange and blue and anyone that wants to question my dedication to this team or how much of a fan I am can kiss my ass. But I can honestly say that I haven't been as unexcited for a season in a very very long time.

baja
04-10-2009, 07:06 AM
IMO the lowest form of attack on this board is questiong one's fanhood. Espcially when it's because you are critical of the front office. It's the fan's responsibility to question the FO and not blindly follow along.

The guys on this board, of which MANY are in this thread, should be ****ing ashamed of making you the figure head of their crusade. And the bandwagon sheep posters that went along with it can suck it as well.

The funny thing about it is after a few months, these same dbags that called out your fanhood will be riding your jock when you start posting again, like they forgot all the stupid bull**** they pulled because they are jsut internert bandwagon idiots.

I'm in the same boat as you. I can't imagine how the FO could have ****ed this up anymore than they did. I'm not excitied for the draft. How could you be? We more or less gutted our scouting department at the absolute worst time to do so, but keep that quiet man, no one wants to hear about it.

I bleed orange and blue and anyone that wants to question my dedication to this team or how much of a fan I am can kiss my ass. But I can honestly say that I haven't been as unexcited for a season in a very very long time.

OK than I'm gonna have to go ahead and ban you from my thread for being a bad fan. ;D

2KBack
04-10-2009, 07:53 AM
IMO the lowest form of attack on this board is questiong one's fanhood.

It's the fan's responsibility to question the FO and not blindly follow along.

Why can you judge the quality of other as fans, but not others?

gyldenlove
04-10-2009, 08:39 AM
Not true. I had to take a break because a) I was disgusted by what the FO did and b) I got tired of having my fanhood attacked by idiots almost on a daily basis.

I thought taking a week or two off would make me calm down or feel better but it hasn't done a whole lot in that regard. I'm still disgusted by the trade and with the coach and certain persons, but it is what it is. It would be easier to take if I could find a way to get excited about the draft, but I'm having alot of trouble there, too. Hopefully the team can do some good things in the draft with the increased ammo they have, although I can find no reason to be confident in their ability to do so.

That is pretty much how I see it.

I have come to the point now where I have just accepted that mistakes were made and for better or worse we have to move on and see what has come of it.

Like you, I have no confidence in the ability of our current staff to transform draft picks into anything more than shadows and excuses. The Patriots have drafted incredibly poorly while Mcdaniels was in a position of some power there and the Falcons are not exactly a team noted for their brilliant drafting while Xanders was there. I hope they can somehow get it together and keep up the strong trend from the last drafts and get us some difference makers, but I am skeptical.

I don't think other than Bobo and the chuggerfans that there are really anyone on this board who wants the team to fail to prove them right about Mcdaniels. I do believe that quite a few people think that all the odds favour a bad outcome to the season and I am certainly one of them. I want the team to do well, I would be nothing but thrilled if we pull a Cardinals type season with a superbowl appearance and certainly a lot of the success would be and should be attributed to Mcdaniels/Nolan/Xanders if that happens - on the other hand I just don't think that is going to happen and I think that if we have a bad year a lot of that should be attributed to Mcdaniels/Nolan/Xanders.

Rigs11
04-10-2009, 08:50 AM
Really? I seem to remeber a guy that put 4500 yards and 25 TDs in his 2nd year as a starter. Not to mention his 3rd down efficiency and 4th qtr play. I'll hazard a guess and say that his on field performance speaks for itself and Jay would have been fine in McD's offensive scheme.

And much like what Fontaine posted earlier, if McD can't work with a guy like Cutler, then well, he was the wrong man for the job.

behind a great line with great receivers. hell sometimes he would put it up for grabs and marshall would comed own with it. our offense made cutler looked better than he was and will do the same for orton.

baja
04-10-2009, 09:07 AM
behind a great line with great receivers. hell sometimes he would put it up for grabs and marshall would comed own with it. our offense made cutler looked better than he was and will do the same for orton.

gotta give this a B I N G O ;D