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fontaine
04-07-2009, 07:27 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/04/05/trade/index.html
1. The key to the trade was Kyle Orton. Laugh if you want, but it's the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington's Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay's Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.

But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton's arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it's crazy he didn't like Campbell -- who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year -- more than he liked Orton, but it's the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.

Let's move beyond the Jay vs McDouche debates.

Whichever side you're on I think you'll agree that the situation was too far gone to be resolved.

Having said that, where McDaniels DID have a choice in his QB was between CampBell/Orton. Make no mistake, it's not like McDaniels has been saddled with a QB who he didn't choose. Josh made a choice between Campbell and Orton.

Now I don't know why he chose Orton specifically, considering Campbell probably has better physical tools to work with but it's his choice. I don't really care if Jay goes on to have a great career or not, that's beyond anyone's choice in Denver. But a choice, none the less was made by our HC and it was Orton.

Somehow, I do feel better about that instead of Orton being forced on McDaniels. In a way Orton is Josh's first major pick and we'll get an indication pretty quickly in the year whether it was a good choice.

Can people who've watched a lot of the skins football let us know exactly what might have put off McDaniels from going with Campbell?

Gcver2ver3
04-07-2009, 07:32 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/04/05/trade/index.html


Let's move beyond the Jay vs McDouche debates.

Whichever side you're on I think you'll agree that the situation was too far gone to be resolved.

Having said that, where McDaniels DID have a choice in his QB was between CampBell/Orton. Make no mistake, it's not like McDaniels has been saddled with a QB who he didn't choose. Josh made a choice between Campbell and Orton.

Now I don't know why he chose Orton specifically, considering Campbell probably has better physical tools to work with but it's his choice. I don't really care if Jay goes on to have a great career or not, that's beyond anyone's choice in Denver. But a choice, none the less was made by our HC and it was Orton.

Somehow, I do feel better about that instead of Orton being forced on McDaniels. In a way Orton is Josh's first major pick and we'll get an indication pretty quickly in the year whether it was a good choice.

Can people who've watched a lot of the skins football let us know exactly what might have put off McDaniels from going with Campbell?

it's not as much as a put off on Campbell as it is an endorsement for Orton...

Orton has the tools to succeed in our offense...he has a solid pocket awreness, he's smart, and he's accurate...people bag on his arm strength which makes me question if they've watched him play...Orton can't throw it 70 yds but his intermediate throws have great zip...he doesn't sail passes, he's not Chad Pennington (who btw is a very good QB in his own right)...

Anyone who watched him last season, esp before his injury, can see he played well with limited offensive resources around him..he's a great leader and teammate as well...Orton has also played in a pass heavy offense in college so he can play in a spread offense...

BroncoInSkinland
04-07-2009, 07:38 AM
Campbel is rumored to be afraid of throwing deep, and from what I have seen personally (I was at one skins game last year, and saw a dozen or so more on TV) the rumor is true. He is easily shaken when he does make a mistake. He has been through three or four systems now, and hasn't truely excelled at any of them. He is a fair game manager, and exceedingly safe with the ball, but he would really struggle if put in a situation to win a game without serious help from his surrounding cast. While his work ethic is good, and he inspires loyalty in teammates, true leadership of the "Lets go win this game" type isn't his strong suit. Rather teammates would want to win the game because he is such a good guy if that makes sense. Those are just quick off the top of my head thoughts for what they are worth.

no-pseudo-fan
04-07-2009, 07:54 AM
I can not wait to see the new offense and the new defense. Orton is better than Cassel, so we should be ok.

The one ball I think that Orton throws better than Cutler right now is the touch deep pass. Cutler could never get that ball right, it was either too far or short.

baja
04-07-2009, 07:58 AM
What's interesting is we gave up five spots in round one to take Orton over Campbell.

I wonder who will have the worse record this year Washington or Chicago

fontaine
04-07-2009, 08:12 AM
Cool, thanks for the info, I knew there were some of you folks who were in the skins area.

What's interesting is we gave up five spots in round one to take Orton over Campbell.

I wonder who will have the worse record this year Washington or Chicago

Yeah, good point. The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the trade did go down this early and specifically because McDaniels saw something in Orton that made him choose that option.

Or let me put it this way:

Pat Bowlen announces that Jay is available for trade and in a matter of hours the deal is done. Now, I don't think McDaniels, in those few hours, managed to put together, watch, grade and analyze both the film from Orton AND Campbell.

Looking at the timing of this, I think McDaniels realized he could get a solid offense together with Orton as opposed to Campbell a while beforehand and that's what made the deal to Chicago happen so quickly and easily only hours after Bowlen announced Jay was on the block.

Merlin
04-07-2009, 08:23 AM
What's interesting is we gave up five spots in round one to take Orton over Campbell.
He is the HC, he knows what he needs and thought the value was worth it. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming his love for Cassel vs Cutler had to do with him wanting a security blanket (an expensive one at that), not with extremely poor assessment of talent (there is no way he can be that incompetent at evaluating talent, especially with his experience).

baja
04-07-2009, 08:27 AM
Which makes you wonder if McD after getting to know jay in the two weeks they spent together he realized jay was a luxury they did not really need and felt the team would be better with a more pedestrian quarterback like Orton and the picks. I am beginning to think McD wanted to trade Jay from the onset just like Jay said and it does make sense too. In McD's offense Jays skill set was not that great an asset and the picks were more valuable to the Broncos.

DBBBSBS
04-07-2009, 08:30 AM
Cool, thanks for the info, I knew there were some of you folks who were in the skins area.



Yeah, good point. The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the trade did go down this early and specifically because McDaniels saw something in Orton that made him choose that option.

Or let me put it this way:

Pat Bowlen announces that Jay is available for trade and in a matter of hours the deal is done. Now, I don't think McDaniels, in those few hours, managed to put together, watch, grade and analyze both the film from Orton AND Campbell.

Looking at the timing of this, I think McDaniels realized he could get a solid offense together with Orton as opposed to Campbell a while beforehand and that's what made the deal to Chicago happen so quickly and easily only hours after Bowlen announced Jay was on the block.


I dont agree McD would have started the evaluation after pat said jay was available, with the way things were going.. i am sure they would have looked at the possible teams and they would have looked at tape of orton, campbell, edwards, quinn, anderson, clemens and rosenfels. I am sure this was done before, and then they came out and saw who were the partners. Based on the team that offers good picks/QB in return they selected the best one possible.

But i strongly think WAS still would have been a better trade. With the 13th pick this year.. we could have done back to back pick or we have leverage to move down easily. Also WAS is with DAL,PHI and NYG... which are three good teams. So WAS coming out of division as winners would be tough if not impossible.

Where as CHI with MIN, DET and GB. Almost 4 games in this could be a given. With a little luck they can win the division. So next years pick from WAS would have been better than CHItown's.

Anyway time will tell.. but can't wait to see jay struggle and a Def Line men falling on his knee.

Hogan11
04-07-2009, 08:33 AM
Orton is a admitted nihilist....it's always better to have a QB that believes in absolutely nothing, that way nothing printed about him sticks Ha!

Kaylore
04-07-2009, 08:33 AM
Campbell is another check down charlie. You know when coaches talk about players that do stupid things to keep their QB rating high? That's Campbell. He dumps off a lot to keep his completions high. He doesn't throw ints, but he doesn't convert third and long's or throw touchdowns either.

Merlin
04-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Which makes you wonder if McD after getting to know jay in the two weeks they spent together he realized jay was a luxury
The problem with that theory is what he was willing to give up to get Cassel...a very high first and a boatload of money.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the aftermath, but not on the initial screw-up

baja
04-07-2009, 08:57 AM
Orton is a admitted nihilist....it's always better to have a QB that believes in absolutely nothing, that way nothing printed about him sticks Ha!

OK I'll bite what the hell is a nihilst?

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 09:00 AM
Orton is a admitted nihilist....it's always better to have a QB that believes in absolutely nothing, that way nothing printed about him sticks Ha!

LOL

Now we're getting into the philosophy of our QBs. Only in Denver. I love it. Hilarious!

baja
04-07-2009, 09:00 AM
<b>The problem with that theory is what he was willing to give up to get Cassel...a very high first and a boatload of money.</b>

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the aftermath, but not on the initial screw-up

many here are assume this is gospel where are you getting the info McD was willing to give a first for casell

DBBBSBS
04-07-2009, 09:01 AM
The problem with that theory is what he was willing to give up to get Cassel...a very high first and a boatload of money.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the aftermath, but not on the initial screw-up

do you understand or not.. he was listening. and it is someone whom he coached.. and he was getting extra picks to solidify the defense. so stop nitpicking.

baja
04-07-2009, 09:02 AM
Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical position that values do not exist but rather are falsely invented.[1] Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life[2] is without meaning, purpose or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not exist, and subsequently there are no moral values with which to uphold a rule or to logically prefer one action over another. Nihilism can also take the form of epistemological, metaphysical or mereological nihilism.

The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote the general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence that one has when they realize there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.[3] Movements such as Futurism and deconstructionism,[4] among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts. Often this means or is meant to imply that the beliefs of the accuser are more substantial or truthful, whereas the beliefs of the accused are nihilistic, and thereby comparatively amount to nothing (or are simply claimed to be destructively amoralistic).

broncswin
04-07-2009, 09:05 AM
I can not wait to see the new offense and the new defense. Orton is better than Cassel, so we should be ok.

The one ball I think that Orton throws better than Cutler right now is the touch deep pass. Cutler could never get that ball right, it was either too far or short.

By far and away the worst part of his game, I swear that guy missed more wide open guys down the middle of the field as well as the sideline fly route!!

I do believe Orton will win the job and be a very good qb for us, Cambell shouldn't even be a starting qb in the nfl, that is why he starts for the skins:spit:

no-pseudo-fan
04-07-2009, 09:09 AM
If Orton can throw to the open receiver we will be ok.

Hogan11
04-07-2009, 09:10 AM
LOL

Now we're getting into the philosophy of our QBs. Only in Denver. I love it. Hilarious!

"I dont care if I only make three throws a game, as long as we win. I'm a nihilist, I don't believe in anything!!" - Kyle Orton mic'd up to one of his teammates on the sideline

He said it, I didn't ;D

gyldenlove
04-07-2009, 09:10 AM
it's not as much as a put off on Campbell as it is an endorsement for Orton...

Orton has the tools to succeed in our offense...he has a solid pocket awreness, he's smart, and he's accurate...people bag on his arm strength which makes me question if they've watched him play...Orton can't throw it 70 yds but his intermediate throws have great zip...he doesn't sail passes, he's not Chad Pennington (who btw is a very good QB in his own right)...

Anyone who watched him last season, esp before his injury, can see he played well with limited offensive resources around him..he's a great leader and teammate as well...Orton has also played in a pass heavy offense in college so he can play in a spread offense...

I have seen him plays and his accuracy when throwing more than 15 yards, particularly towards the sideline is not good. His passes aren't floaters, but because he has to force his motion he loses the accuracy. You will see a lot of his sideline passes will go out of bounds or come up well away from his intended target. In order to compensate for his lacking arm power he loses accuracy when going deep, the only passes you don't see that on are passes directly down the seem to his tight end.

You say he had limited options, but so did the guy who played in the same offense in college before him and he came up 10 yards short of the all-time record last season.

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 09:15 AM
Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical position that values do not exist but rather are falsely invented.[1] Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life[2] is without meaning, purpose or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not exist, and subsequently there are no moral values with which to uphold a rule or to logically prefer one action over another. Nihilism can also take the form of epistemological, metaphysical or mereological nihilism.

The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote the general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence that one has when they realize there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.[3] Movements such as Futurism and deconstructionism,[4] among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts. Often this means or is meant to imply that the beliefs of the accuser are more substantial or truthful, whereas the beliefs of the accused are nihilistic, and thereby comparatively amount to nothing (or are simply claimed to be destructively amoralistic).

I love me some wiki!

I don't think Orton is a nihilist at all. In fact, I don't get Hogans analysis that Orton is a nihilist.

I think Hogan has watched The Big Labowski one too many times...

TheReverend
04-07-2009, 09:16 AM
I'm sorry... I'm really trying to get some sort of excitement to post about something...

But is anyone else reading the thread title over and over and think it's hysterically sad and laughing damn near uncontrollably to the point where it might even be crying...?

...or is that just me....

Tombstone RJ
04-07-2009, 09:18 AM
I'm sorry... I'm really trying to get some sort of excitement to post about something...

But is anyone else reading the thread title over and over and think it's hysterically sad and laughing damn near uncontrollably to the point where it might even be crying...?

...or is that just me....

Nope, that's just you.

bronco militia
04-07-2009, 09:19 AM
http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/drew040609.gif

Hulamau
04-07-2009, 10:06 AM
Which makes you wonder if McD after getting to know jay in the two weeks they spent together he realized jay was a luxury they did not really need and felt the team would be better with a more pedestrian quarterback like Orton and the picks. I am beginning to think McD wanted to trade Jay from the onset just like Jay said and it does make sense too. In McD's offense Jays skill set was not that great an asset and the picks were more valuable to the Broncos.

I think it some of that may be true but likely not in that sequence Baja. I think its true that McD has tremendous faith in his ability to teach good QBSs to be better and how to excel in his system. After working with both 6th and 7th rounders Tom Terrific and Matt Surprise Cassel, who can blame him

With Jay I trust his repeated statements that one of his main reasons for coming here was the chance to work his magic on a guy with Jays inherent talents. Listening to McD's first press conference and interviews You can see that enthusiasm was not contrived.

But after getting in here and deeply evaluating and learning about each player and learning just how serious a project he had on his hands to rebuild this defense he began to look at all the possibilities.

Perhaps Cutlers wishy washy and at first even hostile attitude on his coming and the request either Jay of Cook made for a trade, perhaps also added to by some misgivings over his early meetings with Jay going over the offense, he may well have realized that while he can make Jay a great QB in this system, He can also make some other guys as good at winning in his system as Jay might become and still grab a boat load of help elsewhere.

But I seriously doubt he had any plans to push the issue before he was contacted about the Cassel possibilities. He had too many other issues going on and Jay was more than Okay even if a luxury, at QB.

However, seeing now in hind-site how Jay acted and what his character really was like , I suspect McD is counting his lucky stars that it played out as it did and he had the option to pick a guy with the smarts and the skill set to excel in this kind of system while grabbing a ton of help in the draft, and that is when he focused hard on Orton.

Certainly he was watching plenty of film on the likely trade teams (as he should have) when Jay was holding out and not returning calls, and no way did he wait until Pat told JAy he was fired get your bags packed!

I think Orton is going to be the bomb in this system. He is more talented over all that Cassel, he makes excellent decisions at the line which is critical in McDs game plans and his is accurate.

Nothing wrong with his arm either. He just died and went to QB heaven while Jay is now going to need every ounce of luck and ALL of his skill to come anywhere close to what he did in Shanny's system here, much less the numbers he could have put up with McD!

Orton's completion percentage and TD's will take a nice jump with a far better line, far better receivers and far better system tailored for a QB than the bears.

baja
04-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Hulamau -

Mighty Smurf has a thread with an article about Orton and in the article there is a small blurb about Orton being able to audible about 40% of the plays at the line of scrimmage in college, this is something Jay was not yet even close to being able to do. I am beginning to think cerebral and talented Orton is a better fit in Josh's system than the highly gifted but risk taking and pouty Cutler.

Gcver2ver3
04-07-2009, 10:52 AM
I have seen him plays and his accuracy when throwing more than 15 yards, particularly towards the sideline is not good. His passes aren't floaters, but because he has to force his motion he loses the accuracy. You will see a lot of his sideline passes will go out of bounds or come up well away from his intended target. In order to compensate for his lacking arm power he loses accuracy when going deep, the only passes you don't see that on are passes directly down the seem to his tight end.

You say he had limited options, but so did the guy who played in the same offense in college before him and he came up 10 yards short of the all-time record last season.

i don't believe you've watched him much if that's your analysis...

to my observations, you've been only negative about trading away Cutler and acquring Orton...if i'm wrong then "my bad" but if i'm not wrong your observations are clouded by you wanting Cutler back...

i was impressed with Orton long before any trade talks ever came about...

you give Orton the weapons that Cutler had last year, but with a better defense and you'll see a much better team for 09...

fontaine
04-07-2009, 11:46 AM
I dont agree McD would have started the evaluation after pat said jay was available, with the way things were going.. i am sure they would have looked at the possible teams and they would have looked at tape of orton, campbell, edwards, quinn, anderson, clemens and rosenfels. I am sure this was done before, and then they came out and saw who were the partners. Based on the team that offers good picks/QB in return they selected the best one possible.

But i strongly think WAS still would have been a better trade. With the 13th pick this year.. we could have done back to back pick or we have leverage to move down easily. Also WAS is with DAL,PHI and NYG... which are three good teams. So WAS coming out of division as winners would be tough if not impossible.

Where as CHI with MIN, DET and GB. Almost 4 games in this could be a given. With a little luck they can win the division. So next years pick from WAS would have been better than CHItown's.

Anyway time will tell.. but can't wait to see jay struggle and a Def Line men falling on his knee.

You're right in the first part of your post. I mean the same thing that McD must have looked at other QBs well before Pat announced the trade.

The Washington pick this year and most likely next year would have been better also, but that's why I created this thread. The real incentive in the Chicago trade MUST have been Orton and based on this McD has a higher grade on him than Campbell who was a first round pick himself unless I'm mistaken.

It just puts the trade into a different light for me. We didn't just get handed Orton as a throw in, but something that was crucial to the trade and for a coach that's meant to be a QB guru I feel better knowing that McD really believes he can make it work with Orton.

If that happens or not remains to be seen but the interesting thing is we'll know pretty quickly. First Orton has to beat out Simms in open competition, next we'll probably see him being extended if he really is the real deal for McD and finally we'll see how these two young QBs stack up in the upcoming season.

The real competition here as far as I'm concerned isn't between Kyle and Jay, but Kyle and Jason Campbell.

fontaine
04-07-2009, 11:52 AM
I have seen him plays and his accuracy when throwing more than 15 yards, particularly towards the sideline is not good. His passes aren't floaters, but because he has to force his motion he loses the accuracy. You will see a lot of his sideline passes will go out of bounds or come up well away from his intended target. In order to compensate for his lacking arm power he loses accuracy when going deep, the only passes you don't see that on are passes directly down the seem to his tight end..

1. That's why I want the team to retain Scheff, because he's so good at working that seam route and with Scheff it backs the safeties up.

2. You mentioned his sideline passes. That's what I'm afraid of. From what little I've seen of Orton he doesn't have that zip and quick release to nail those 10-15 yard sideline routes that worked so well in our offense and guys like Marshall/Royal are so good at. Without those sideline passes we saw how easily defenses stack up the middle to stunt the running game.

But I'm sure McD is aware of this. The ball is firmly in his court now.

USMCBladerunner
04-07-2009, 03:09 PM
Fair??!! Whose the focking nihilist here? What are you a bunch of focking Cutlers?

FireFly
04-07-2009, 03:29 PM
I can not wait to see the new offense and the new defense. Orton is better than Cassel, so we should be ok.

The one ball I think that Orton throws better than Cutler right now is the touch deep pass. Cutler could never get that ball right, it was either too far or short.

QFT

Hercules Rockefeller
04-07-2009, 03:32 PM
What's interesting is we gave up five spots in round one to take Orton over Campbell.

I wonder who will have the worse record this year Washington or Chicago

There was something online, and I think it was in ESPN's blog section dedicated to Cutler, that said the Broncos didn't think the value was there in this draft to accept higher picks for Cutler.

DrFate
04-07-2009, 03:56 PM
There was something online, and I think it was in ESPN's blog section dedicated to Cutler, that said the Broncos didn't think the value was there in this draft to accept higher picks for Cutler.

That would jive with what Mayock said recently. It is a so-so draft and the 'value' is after pick 15. (cause the guy you get is basically the same as one you'd get 10 picks later)

baja
04-07-2009, 04:31 PM
There was something online, and I think it was in ESPN's blog section dedicated to Cutler, that said the Broncos didn't think the value was there in this draft to accept higher picks for Cutler.

If that is true than the draft system is broken.

listopencil
04-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Didn't Shanny choose Griese?

Hercules Rockefeller
04-07-2009, 04:59 PM
It means this draft sucks.