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View Full Version : KOA 850 Interview with Logan and McD - The full story from McDaniels side.


Hulamau
04-06-2009, 03:37 PM
(Here you go LostKnight, BroncoBuff and all the other Jay apologists here is McD spelling it out as clear as day once again on the record, while all you guys have is innuendo and your own hurt feelings as hunches to stand on. Time to pack it in and get back on the Bus. We're moving on)


Thoughts From The Coach - Part 1
April 6th, 2009 - 10:01am by mike_rice

The Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler could never get on the same page. Now, after the blockbuster trade that occurred on Friday, April 3, Cutler is in Chicago and the Broncos are moving on with quarterback Kyle Orton, an extra first-round and third-round draft pick this year and another first-rounder in 2010.

There has been much speculation about who said what to whom and when. Broncos Head Coach Josh McDaniels spoke with Dave Logan and Lois Melkonian on 850 KOA’s “The Ride Home” on the day the Broncos made the trade. I wanted to share some of the questions and responses because they hit on many of the key issues in this whole saga. Part one of that interview follows.

850 KOA attempted to speak with Jay Cutler, but text messages went without response on two occasions, once before the trade and once immediately after the deal.

KOA: After you took the job, when the initial trade possibility was discussed with whomever, with Jay Cutler as a possibility, did you and the Broncos initiate that trade conversation or did other teams?

JM: We never initiated any conversations. We were busy preparing for free agency. That was where our focus was. We never had any desire and we had no plan to do anything like that (trading Cutler). The day or two before free agency opened, people started to call and initiate some conversation about entertaining a possibility of a three-way trade. We had conversations. Some were very short and there were a couple of other conversations that we actually took part in. That’s what happened. Things started happening faster on the other end (but) nothing ever came to the point where we were considering an opportunity or anything. Then the deal was done on the other side (Cassell traded to the Chiefs). We called Jay and (his agent) Bus (Cook) and let them know what happened. The communication from that point forward started to go the other way.

( So this is when Bus Cook and Jay sprang into action and decided to ride this rail out of town or at least squeeze a long term new deal from Denver)

KOA: Would it be curious that other NFL teams would call the Broncos and ask, “We’re thinking about the possibility of maybe trying to put a package together for a guy like Jay Cutler?” With some of the other teams that have a top quarterback, do conversations like that take place a lot?

JM: I’m not sure. I would say this was a little bit of a different situation based on my history and where I’d come from. I think the entire line of speaking between some other team and our organization was based on the fact that they knew Matt Cassell had played for me in New England. I think that was the only reason that conversations took place and I think that was the only reason they felt like they might have a chance to broker some kind of a deal. But again, nothing ever got even close (to getting done) but they wanted to call and I think that’s exactly why.

KOA: At any point during this standoff, did you think about forcing the issue and making him (Cutler) sit down and talk with you?

JM: We had a conversation on the phone and he (Cutler) wouldn’t do anything without Bus Cook. We requested numerous times to have an opportunity to sit down and speak to Jay and discuss everything, whatever he wanted to talk about and some of the things we wanted to talk about. It never got to the point where they would allow the communication to go any further. It broke down to the point where (in) the last weeks he just refused to respond to anything, including (Broncos’ owner) Pat Bowlen. When you go to that length to show your displeasure, I think you’re really sending a clear message to the organization that you don’t want to play there any more.

KOA: (In) your last conversation with Jay Cutler, Bus Cook was there and (so was) Brian Xanders of the Broncos, in the sit down meeting. Did the Matt Cassell situation come up in that conversation in that room and is there a possibility Jay Cutler left that meeting (believing) that you, if given an opportunity, might still consummate a trade for Matt Cassell?

JM: There’s no way he could have left the room thinking that. We discussed what had happened. We discussed how to go forward from there. He understood exactly what had happened that couple days. He agreed and understood why there may have been some kind of connection with some other team trying to broker a three-way trade. He understood that completely. Then the meeting ended. The tone of the conversation while we were in the meeting was totally different that what it was represented afterwards.

(More Bus and Jay shenanigans after the face to face meeting to maintain their hard line)

KOA: So you left the meeting thinking this is going to work and this is going to be my quarterback?

JM: I was waiting for a phone call later that afternoon and that was clearly stated and communicated and obviously not executed.

KOA: When you took the Broncos job, when you sat down and talked with Pat Bowlen, did Pat ask you your opinion on what you thought of Jay Cutler and what direction you were going in with respect to the offense?

JM: A lot of things came up when we had discussions before I was hired and Jay was part of those discussions. But Jay Cutler was a big reason why this position was very attractive to me. As a person who has worked on the offensive side of the ball the last five years, coming to a place with a quarterback like Jay Cutler was exciting. That’s why I go back to the fact that we never initiated or we would never have any reason to initiate it (the original trade talks) because we felt comfortable with that. Pat knew what direction we were going to go. We were going to bring our system here and implement it. We have players here that can fit in comparably to the players that I’ve worked with in the past and I’m excited to work with that entire group. The conversations were all positive about that stuff and we were looking forward to doing that.

Later this week, we’ll share more from Coach McDaniels’ interview with 850
KOA.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

lex
04-06-2009, 03:49 PM
(Here you go LostKnight, BroncoBuff and all the other Jay apologists here is McD spelling it out as clear as dayonce again on the record, while all you guys have is innuendo and your own hurt feelings as hunches to stand on. Time to pack it in and get back on the Bus. We're moving on)


Thoughts From The Coach - Part 1
April 6th, 2009 - 10:01am by mike_rice

The Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler could never get on the same page. Now, after the blockbuster trade that occurred on Friday, April 3, Cutler is in Chicago and the Broncos are moving on with quarterback Kyle Orton, an extra first-round and third-round draft pick this year and another first-rounder in 2010.

There has been much speculation about who said what to whom and when. Broncos Head Coach Josh McDaniels spoke with Dave Logan and Lois Melkonian on 850 KOA’s “The Ride Home” on the day the Broncos made the trade. I wanted to share some of the questions and responses because they hit on many of the key issues in this whole saga. Part one of that interview follows.

850 KOA attempted to speak with Jay Cutler, but text messages went without response on two occasions, once before the trade and once immediately after the deal.

KOA: After you took the job, when the initial trade possibility was discussed with whomever, with Jay Cutler as a possibility, did you and the Broncos initiate that trade conversation or did other teams?

JM: We never initiated any conversations. We were busy preparing for free agency. That was where our focus was. We never had any desire and we had no plan to do anything like that (trading Cutler). The day or two before free agency opened, people started to call and initiate some conversation about entertaining a possibility of a three-way trade. We had conversations. Some were very short and there were a couple of other conversations that we actually took part in. That’s what happened. Things started happening faster on the other end (but) nothing ever came to the point where we were considering an opportunity or anything. Then the deal was done on the other side (Cassell traded to the Chiefs). We called Jay and (his agent) Bus (Cook) and let them know what happened. The communication from that point forward started to go the other way.

( So this is when Bus Cook and Jay sprang into action and decided to ride this rail out of town or at least squeeze a long term new deal from Denver)

KOA: Would it be curious that other NFL teams would call the Broncos and ask, “We’re thinking about the possibility of maybe trying to put a package together for a guy like Jay Cutler?” With some of the other teams that have a top quarterback, do conversations like that take place a lot?

JM: I’m not sure. I would say this was a little bit of a different situation based on my history and where I’d come from. I think the entire line of speaking between some other team and our organization was based on the fact that they knew Matt Cassell had played for me in New England. I think that was the only reason that conversations took place and I think that was the only reason they felt like they might have a chance to broker some kind of a deal. But again, nothing ever got even close (to getting done) but they wanted to call and I think that’s exactly why.

KOA: At any point during this standoff, did you think about forcing the issue and making him (Cutler) sit down and talk with you?

JM: We had a conversation on the phone and he (Cutler) wouldn’t do anything without Bus Cook. We requested numerous times to have an opportunity to sit down and speak to Jay and discuss everything, whatever he wanted to talk about and some of the things we wanted to talk about. It never got to the point where they would allow the communication to go any further. It broke down to the point where (in) the last weeks he just refused to respond to anything, including (Broncos’ owner) Pat Bowlen. When you go to that length to show your displeasure, I think you’re really sending a clear message to the organization that you don’t want to play there any more.

KOA: (In) your last conversation with Jay Cutler, Bus Cook was there and (so was) Brian Xanders of the Broncos, in the sit down meeting. Did the Matt Cassell situation come up in that conversation in that room and is there a possibility Jay Cutler left that meeting (believing) that you, if given an opportunity, might still consummate a trade for Matt Cassell?

JM: There’s no way he could have left the room thinking that. We discussed what had happened. We discussed how to go forward from there. He understood exactly what had happened that couple days. He agreed and understood why there may have been some kind of connection with some other team trying to broker a three-way trade. He understood that completely. Then the meeting ended. The tone of the conversation while we were in the meeting was totally different that what it was represented afterwards.

(More Bus and Jay shenanigans after the face to face meeting to maintain their hard line)

KOA: So you left the meeting thinking this is going to work and this is going to be my quarterback?

JM: I was waiting for a phone call later that afternoon and that was clearly stated and communicated and obviously not executed.

KOA: When you took the Broncos job, when you sat down and talked with Pat Bowlen, did Pat ask you your opinion on what you thought of Jay Cutler and what direction you were going in with respect to the offense?

JM: A lot of things came up when we had discussions before I was hired and Jay was part of those discussions. But Jay Cutler was a big reason why this position was very attractive to me. As a person who has worked on the offensive side of the ball the last five years, coming to a place with a quarterback like Jay Cutler was exciting. That’s why I go back to the fact that we never initiated or we would never have any reason to initiate it (the original trade talks) because we felt comfortable with that. Pat knew what direction we were going to go. We were going to bring our system here and implement it. We have players here that can fit in comparably to the players that I’ve worked with in the past and I’m excited to work with that entire group. The conversations were all positive about that stuff and we were looking forward to doing that.

Later this week, we’ll share more from Coach McDaniels’ interview with 850
KOA.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

Also, the fact that the trade starts started a day or two before FA doesnt look good for McDaniels. If he was really as disinterested as he's letting on, how was this whole process spread out over 3 days? This is the first Ive heard that the trade talks started before FA started. I had only heard that it happened with in a day of Cassel getting traded to KC. This is actually kind of damning for McDaniels.

jhat01
04-06-2009, 03:49 PM
but but but...McD lied! It's become pretty much crystal clear what went down. Cutler got his panties in a wad after his boys were shown the door...saw an opportunity and milked it. Good luck!

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Yeah, this has been the position from the front office all along, and it frankly makes more sense than Cutler's version. OK, Cutler's position on the face-to-face meeting is that it was expressed that McDaniels preferred to have his guy and might still trade Cutler. Seriously, folks, does anybody actually believe that McDaniels said anything of the kind? Even if you believe he went after Cassel, at that point the scenario was dead, and there was not another attractive QB option available. Given that, I don't buy for one second that McDaniels said anything of the kind and don't understand how anyone else could buy it either.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 03:54 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

Has it not occurred to you that Cutler might be doing the same?

USMCBladerunner
04-06-2009, 03:56 PM
This doesn't surprise me...the way Jay just completely gaffed off Bowlen and then the way he denied wanting to be traded pretty much led me to believe that Cutler was manipulating the situation.

The trade scenario itself didn't lend credence to the idea that McDaniels had a stiffy for Cassel, because if he did, he could have and would have been able to get a package together that would have given NE more than #34, and that didn't happen.

I'm bummed that Jay turned out the way he did, cause he's a rare talent at QB. Hopefully the Broncos can parlay those picks into something substantial.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 03:59 PM
the more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Belichick initially approached the Broncos and then Pioli leaked it, thereby weakening a franchise on the edge of becoming the best offense in the AFC and taking attention away from FA and the draft...

Those of you who think this is a conspiracy theory too far need to consider what Belichick has been willing to do in the past (illegal videotaping and alleged radio monitoring), and how far he goes in slighting people (Mangini)

Popps
04-06-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm only reading this, but I suspect some jaw flinching, mixed with a slight leftward head-lean, coupled by a repetitive counter-blinking pattern.

Popps
04-06-2009, 04:00 PM
850 KOA attempted to speak with Jay Cutler, but text messages went without response on two occasions, once before the trade and once immediately after the deal.

Wow, what a shocking turn of events.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 04:02 PM
the more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Belichick initially approached the Broncos and then Pioli leaked it, thereby weakening a franchise on the edge of becoming the best offense in the AFC and taking attention away from FA and the draft...

Those of you who think this is a conspiracy theory too far need to consider what Belichick has been willing to do in the past (illegal videotaping and alleged radio monitoring), and how far he goes in slighting people (Mangini)

If this scenario were true, then why would Belichek come out and essentially confirm McDaniels version of the events? If he had some evil grand scheme to tear down the Broncos, it seems more likely that he would have just kept his mouth shut.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:02 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

Also, the fact that the trade starts started a day or two before FA doesnt look good for McDaniels. If he was really as disinterested as he's letting on, how was this whole process spread out over 3 days? This is the first Ive heard that the trade talks started before FA started. I had only heard that it happened with in a day of Cassel getting traded to KC. This is actually kind of damning for McDaniels.

Just curious. I still haven't had anyone give me a reasonable guess as to what McDaniels/Bowlen's motivation would be for lying about Jay not returning their calls.

Maybe they lied about the initial trade talks. Maybe they didn't. But from there, why would they ever say they were trying to reach out to him when they actually weren't? Pat Bowlen has a lot more to lose than gain by losing Jay Cutler. Why would he lie about the situation?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:02 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

No kidding ... that didn't occur to him? Hula, you think this is "proof" of something? Cutler is gone ... anybody in their right mind is going to put themselves in the best light possible.

Plus, that account has a screwy timeline. He says the team called Jay and Bus first .... that the TEAM informed THEM. But I thought Jay found out about it elsewhere - remember Jay said "numerous sources" told him? - and that was the basis of this entire problem. That Josh did not communicate with Jay / admit to Jay that trade discussions happened.

Plus now those new and deeply detailed Vikings stories added to all this seem to bolster the idea there was a lot more here than just smoke. For me, I believe Josh actively tried to trade Jay, and then - because Josh had never traded anybody or dealt with agents before - thought he could get away with lying and/or misleading Jay about what happened. That to me is the likeliest scenario based on everything we know.


But it's over now, none of this matters any more.

SouthStndJunkie
04-06-2009, 04:03 PM
The funny thing is that the anti-Cutler crowd is having just as much trouble letting this go as the pro-Cutler crowd is....maybe more.

I have moved on.

I wanted to keep Cutler, but it was not meant to be.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:03 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

Also, the fact that the trade starts started a day or two before FA doesnt look good for McDaniels. If he was really as disinterested as he's letting on, how was this whole process spread out over 3 days? This is the first Ive heard that the trade talks started before FA started. I had only heard that it happened with in a day of Cassel getting traded to KC. This is actually kind of damning for McDaniels.

the way McDaniels lays out the timing is extremely questionable at best, and of course he is going to say what makes him look better.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:03 PM
850 KOA attempted to speak with Jay Cutler, but text messages went without response on two occasions, once before the trade and once immediately after the deal.

Wow, what a shocking turn of events.

I bet they didn't really call. I bet they're just saying they called, but they are really lying about it.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 04:06 PM
No kidding ... that didn't occur to him? Hula, you think this is "proof" of something? Cutler is gone ... anybody in their right mind is going to put themselves in the best light possible.

Plus, that account has a screwy timeline. He says the team called Jay and Bus first .... that the TEAM informed THEM. But I thought Jay found out about it elsewhere, and that was the basis of this entire problem - that Josh did not communicate with Jay / admit to Jay that trade discussions happened. Plus those new and deeply detailed Vikings stories seem to indicate there was a lot more here than just smoke. I will never believe anything other than that Josh actively tried to trade Jay, and then - because Josh had never traded anybody or dealt with agents befiore - thought he could lie/mislead Jay about what happened. That to me is the lieliest scenario based on everything we know.


But it's over now, none of this matters any more.

Actually, the front office scenario sounds like the most plausible to me. It sounds pretty far-fetched that McDaniels would go into a face-to-face meeting with Cutler, a meeting designed to mend fences, and tell Cutler that he would prefer to have his own guy as Jay claims. That doesn't pass the sniff test.

Plus, it does not seem to have occurred to lex (or you) that Jay may be covering his butt as well.

bowtown
04-06-2009, 04:07 PM
850 KOA attempted to speak with Jay Cutler, but text messages went without response on two occasions, once before the trade and once immediately after the deal.

Wow, what a shocking turn of events.


I think he's just got a bad service plan. Tatum Bell probably hooked him up with it. Tater fumbles again!

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:08 PM
the more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Belichick initially approached the Broncos and then Pioli leaked it, thereby weakening a franchise on the edge of becoming the best offense in the AFC and taking attention away from FA and the draft...

Those of you who think this is a conspiracy theory too far need to consider what Belichick has been willing to do in the past (illegal videotaping and alleged radio monitoring), and how far he goes in slighting people (Mangini)

That's outside-the-box, creative thinking. I'm not sure how much I agree with that, but Belichick has zero credibility in my book. Maybe the best coach ever, but definitely not a truth-teller.

beef, that's good, incisive, original thought. Never take what they feed you, think for yourself. :thumbs:

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:12 PM
To me, taking everything out of the drama, there's one thing that says it all to me, and that's Cutler telling Jay Glazer that he was surprised they were trading him - that he never really wanted this.

Taking everything else out of the equation, that's just bizarre behavior. How do you demand a trade, then say that you never wanted it to get to this? It makes me doubt his credibility with everything else he's been saying.

It says either A) he's crazy and/or really immature, and he didn't expect them to call him on his tantrum; or B) the purpose all along was indeed to force the Broncos into giving him a new deal.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:13 PM
I think he's just got a bad service plan. Tatum Bell probably hooked him up with it. Tater fumbles again!

You know, that's a pretty good point. I wonder if Tatum had anything to do with getting Jay his cell phone. This whole deal could seriously just be Tatum's extravagant way of getting back at the organization over trading him to Detroit.

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:15 PM
The trade scenario itself didn't lend credence to the idea that McDaniels had a stiffy for Cassel, because if he did, he could have and would have been able to get a package together that would have given NE more than #34, and that didn't happen.


This is the thing that the Cutler apologists need to explain. If McD really wanted Cassel why didn't he get him? He couldn't come up with something better than KC did? Really? You're going with that as your rationale?

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:17 PM
the more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Belichick initially approached the Broncos and then Pioli leaked it, thereby weakening a franchise on the edge of becoming the best offense in the AFC and taking attention away from FA and the draft...

Those of you who think this is a conspiracy theory too far need to consider what Belichick has been willing to do in the past (illegal videotaping and alleged radio monitoring), and how far he goes in slighting people (Mangini)

I saw some mysterious black helicopters hovering over my house yesterday. Creepy.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:18 PM
Actually, the front office scenario sounds like the most plausible to me. It sounds pretty far-fetched that McDaniels would go into a face-to-face meeting with Cutler, a meeting designed to mend fences, and tell Cutler that he would prefer to have his own guy as Jay claims. That doesn't pass the sniff test.

Yeah, I never bought that ... I remember thinking Jay must've heard Josh telling him some reasons why he MIGHT have wanted Cassel, and he expanded that further. Jay is a real child, a real baby. I just wish Josh would've cleaned it up right away.



Plus, it does not seem to have occurred to lex (or you) that Jay may be covering his butt as well.

Maybe he has, but unlike this self-serving Josh interview, Jay hasn't been re-hashing. He made those very strange statements that he was "surprised," and that the trade was "not his doing" (which was pure bullcrap of course, he freaking asked for the trade), but other than that, Jay hasn't done this kind of after-the-fact CYA stuff. He doesn't have to of course - he's in Chicago now. But Josh is still here, still picking up the pieces, so this CYA statement is understandable.


OH BY THE WAY: All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:19 PM
This is the thing that the Cutler apologists need to explain. If McD really wanted Cassel why didn't he get him? He couldn't come up with something better than KC did? Really? You're going with that as your rationale?

I think he wanted him, but Belichick never had any intention of giving Cassel to him, and Bowlen would never have signed off on the added money when Jay was already cheaper, more proven, homegrown, and in place.

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:19 PM
Deangelo and Bus...

Deangelo?

Ray Finkle
04-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I never bought that ... I remember thinking Jay must've heard Josh telling him some reasons why he MIGHT have wanted Cassel, and he expanded that further. Jay is a real child, a real baby. I just wish Josh would've cleaned it up right away.





Maybe he has, but unlike this self-serving Josh interview, Jay hasn't been re-hashing. He made those very strange statements that he was "surprised," and that the trade was "not his doing" (which was pure bullcrap of course, he freaking asked for the trade), but other than that, Jay hasn't done this kind of after-the-fact CYA stuff. He doesn't have to of course - he's in Chicago now. But Josh is still here, still picking up the pieces, so this CYA statement is understandable.


OH BY THE WAY: All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

Because it would be a PR nightmare for both parties if he got a fat new contract right away. Watch, by the end of preseason or the first few weeks of the season, Jay will get his new contract.

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:21 PM
I think he wanted him, but Belichick never had any intention of giving Cassel to him...

So you're sticking with the theory that Belichick would take a worse deal just to spite McD? And what is your theory for why he didn't want McD to get Cassel?

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:23 PM
Maybe he has, but unlike this self-serving Josh interview, Jay hasn't been re-hashing. He made those very strange statements that he was "surprised," and that the trade was "not his doing" (which was pure bullcrap of course, he freaking asked for the trade), but other than that, Jay hasn't done this kind of after-the-fact CYA stuff. He doesn't have to of course - he's in Chicago now. But Josh is still here, still picking up the pieces, so this CYA statement is understandable.

Totally different deals. Jay's career in Denver is over, while Josh's is just beginning. Jay can go start a honeymoon in Chicago, while Josh has to face the music in Denver. Plus, Jay doesn't have to worry about selling tickets in Denver, while Josh does (if he wants to keep his boss happy). The situation from Josh's perspective demands an explanation. An explanation from Jay, at this point, would be overkill.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:24 PM
So you're sticking with the theory that Belichick would take a worse deal just to spite McD? And what is your theory for why he didn't want McD to get Cassel?

I think he offered him knowing McD would bite and it would become a learning lesson/nightmare/soap opera for a conference up and comer. Belichick bought a house for his whore girlfriend on the side (in Brooklyn) while still married, he would eat his own young if it meant a 1% chance at another title.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 04:25 PM
Because it would be a PR nightmare for both parties if he got a fat new contract right away. Watch, by the end of preseason or the first few weeks of the season, Jay will get his new contract.

I hope they at least make him wait until after 2009. I don't think he's going to throw for 5000 Yds and 40 TDs in Chicago. The petty side of me would take satisfaction in seeing him struggle, and have a hard time justifying a blockbuster deal.

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:25 PM
All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

Man, you're desperate to feel like you're right about this. Do you think it's possible that Angelo told Bus, when asked about a new contract, "thanks but we'll get to that later?" That said, whether or not their intention in this whole thing was to get a new contract doesn't really matter. Either way their intention was to get him out of Denver which is far from being in the best interests of Jay Cutler. And I can turn this back on the Jay apologists who said he "won" because he'll get a huge new deal.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Watch. I bet you a steak dinner that it eventually comes out that either Pioli or Belichick leaked the trade talks, and that is a smoking gun if you ever saw one. If they wanted to keep it on the down low and actually work something out, they would have kept their mouths shut until something was done.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Deangelo?

Wait .... Bears GM? Angelo? Anyway, I heard on ESPN radio the Bears and Cutler will wait until the year is over to negotiate a new deal.

Crow tastes better with A1 sauce, or so I'm told ... :~ohyah!:

TonyR
04-06-2009, 04:29 PM
I think he offered him knowing McD would bite and it would become a learning lesson/nightmare/soap opera for a conference up and comer.

I don't buy it. No way anyone would expect the Jay/Bus reaction to be so ridiculous. That and when asked about it Belichick could have made it worse by saying "the Broncos really wanted Cassel but we already had a deal in place with KC and we honored it" or something to that effect. But instead his comments jived with McD's. So your theory doesn't even begin to pass the smell test.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 04:30 PM
I think he offered him knowing McD would bite and it would become a learning lesson/nightmare/soap opera for a conference up and comer. Belichick bought a house for his whore girlfriend on the side (in Brooklyn) while still married, he would eat his own young if it meant a 1% chance at another title.

I dont think anyone could have forseen this behavior by cutler. enough with the conspiracy theories

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I never bought that ... I remember thinking Jay must've heard Josh telling him some reasons why he MIGHT have wanted Cassel, and he expanded that further. Jay is a real child, a real baby. I just wish Josh would've cleaned it up right away.

Maybe he has, but unlike this self-serving Josh interview, Jay hasn't been re-hashing. He made those very strange statements that he was "surprised," and that the trade was "not his doing" (which was pure bullcrap of course, he freaking asked for the trade), but other than that, Jay hasn't done this kind of after-the-fact CYA stuff. He doesn't have to of course - he's in Chicago now. But Josh is still here, still picking up the pieces, so this CYA statement is understandable.

Rehashing, but if it is the truth then why would his story change? The truth ought to be a "rehash", shouldn't it? So, far the front office position has been consistent and has not been contradicted by anything other than "anonymous sources" type reporting. In fact, the only primary player who has spoken about this issue is Belichek, and he essentially confirms McD's version. He could be lying, of course, but I can't come up with a thing in the world for him to gain by doing so.

On the other hand, you have Cutler claiming that he was basically told he was unwanted in the face-to-face. How anyone can buy that is beyond me. Then he claims he never wanted out of Denver after he asked to be traded at least once (maybe twice if the Bate-scenario is to be believed).

From what's been said and what we know, Cutler's version seems least credible here.



OH BY THE WAY: All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

I was never big on the contract angle. I think Cutler decided he wanted out when Shanny and Bates were shown the door and did what he had to do to get out a ticket out of town.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 04:32 PM
I think he wanted him, but Belichick never had any intention of giving Cassel to him, and Bowlen would never have signed off on the added money when Jay was already cheaper, more proven, homegrown, and in place.

This is crazy. If McDaniels offered Belichek a better deal than the Chiefs, why in the world wouldn't Belichek take it? Makes no sense. You Cutlerites are stretching credulity beyond all reason to defend him.

lex
04-06-2009, 04:33 PM
I don't buy it. No way anyone would expect the Jay/Bus reaction to be... so ridiculous. That and when asked about it Belichick could have made it worse by saying "the Broncos really wanted Cassel but we already had a deal in place with KC and we honored it" or something to that effect. But instead his comments jived with McD's. So your theory doesn't even begin to pass the smell test.

And that was a big mistake. I wonder if Pat and Josh will learn from this mistake.

telluride
04-06-2009, 04:37 PM
The Cutler Chronicles, 1,2,3:

1. Knowing McD's history with Cassel, teams contact Broncos about possible trade scenarios.
2. Bus Cook hears words "trade" + "Cutler", and decides to exploit the situation for a payday.
3. Nothing that the Broncos did or could have done would have changed a thing. See #2.
4. Cutler traded; Cook will soon demand a new jumbo contract, gets his payday.
5. Cutler's career will almost certainly be less successful than it would have been had he remained in Denver. Doesn't matter to either Cutler or Cook, see #2.
6. Denver gets serviceable QB for '09, five first day picks in '09, two first rounders in '10, and rids themselves of a stunningly immature, albeit talented, hard-drinking diabetic QB with a career losing record in the pros and in college.
7. We're better off.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 04:37 PM
And that was a big mistake. I wonder if Pat and Josh will learn from this mistake.

Youre such a ****ing moron, god. You will not blame the baby in this situatiion and continue to blame McDaniels for doing his ****ing job.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:37 PM
And that was a big mistake. I wonder if Pat and Josh will learn from this mistake.

Anyone who is worth their salt as a logical thinker, let alone is in command of a professional sports franchise, has to know that a young, brash, ego-driven superstar athlete is going to feel butthurt to say the least when his name is leaked in trade talks, especially for someone who is widely regarded as an inferior player.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't see how Cutler's perceived demeanor plays into this at all. Terry Bradshaw is a complete asshole and he won more superbowls than we will ever see, would all of you say no to Bradshaw running the show if it meant wins? Who gives a ****, really? Cutler was good and getting better, and that is all that matters.

Kaylore
04-06-2009, 04:40 PM
What's funny is according to this McDaniels had talks going for Cutler several days and still didn't pull the trigger and that's proof to Lex that McDaniels lied. After several days we were knee deep in several free agents. McDaniels was a big reason Dawkins came here. That tells me a lot about where McDaniels' priorities were the day of free agency.

Just admit it: Cutler wanted out and nothing McDaniels did would have changed that.

lex
04-06-2009, 04:42 PM
Anyone who is worth their salt as a logical thinker, let alone is in command of a professional sports franchise, has to know that a young, brash, ego-driven superstar athlete is going to feel butthurt to say the least when his name is leaked in trade talks, especially for someone who is widely regarded as an inferior player.


Pat should be angry with McDaniels as well. McDaniels desire to have a less talented QB because he knew the system is extremely shortsighted and violates a sense of stewardship. What if McDaniels doesnt last 2 seasons? Are we to believe we would have then been better off with Cassel than Cutler? Nonsense. If McDaniels couldnt work with Cutler, he shouldnt have put himself in the running for the job.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:42 PM
To me, taking everything out of the drama, there's one thing that says it all to me, and that's Cutler telling Jay Glazer that he was surprised they were trading him - that he never really wanted this.

Taking everything else out of the equation, that's just bizarre behavior. How do you demand a trade, then say that you never wanted it to get to this? It makes me doubt his credibility with everything else he's been saying.

It says either A) he's crazy and/or really immature, and he didn't expect them to call him on his tantrum; or B) the purpose all along was indeed to force the Broncos into giving him a new deal.

Yeah, that was very, VERY strange ... he said "this was not my doing." Whaaa...? hmmm...

Jay might not be all there ... he is clearly a baby. I think he needs a wife, he needs to grow up emotionally.

lex
04-06-2009, 04:44 PM
What's funny is according to this McDaniels had talks going for Cutler several days and still didn't pull the trigger and that's proof to Lex that McDaniels lied. After several days we were knee deep in several free agents. McDaniels was a big reason Dawkins came here. That tells me a lot about where McDaniels' priorities were the day of free agency.

Just admit it: Cutler wanted out and nothing McDaniels did would have changed that.

I would like someone to reconcile why it took 3 days to say no...if you werent taking it seriously. This timeframe is a little more than passively listening to an offer and saying no.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:48 PM
What if McDaniels doesnt last 2 seasons?

That's the point I keep making that I get the most blowback on around here. Just look around the league at the head coaches, one at a time. The average time on the job is what, 2.2 years? So the odds are Josh will be gone by 2012, that's just how things go with head coaches. And Josh has never been a head coach at any level, so he's probably less likely to last even that long.

On the other hand, Jay would have been here at least until 2020.

Kaylore
04-06-2009, 04:52 PM
I would like someone would reconcile why it took 3 days to say know...if you werent taking it seriously. This timeframe is a little more than passively listening to an offer and saying no.

You mean "no"? Who said they weren't listening or entertaining offers? I'm pretty sure that McDaniels has said they listened to offers. Xanders is the GM and as such has a right to entertain any and all offers. I thought the point that made Jay mad was that he was being shopped and Denver lied about it. According to this he wasn't and they didn't initiate the trade talks.

Now are you changing the parameters of what you're upset with McDaniels about to the "he should never have even answered the phone" stance?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 04:52 PM
Just admit it: Cutler wanted out and nothing McDaniels did would have changed that.

I could not disagree more with that statement, much less "admit" it. Jay is a selfish, petulant child, but I don't think he really wanted out. His bizarre comments right after the trade - that DomCasual posted above - show that he really didn't appreciate the gravity of a trade. He sounded shell-shocked, saying crazy stuff. At least that's what I took from those strange comments - that once the trade happened, Jay was shocked by the reality of it.

lex
04-06-2009, 04:53 PM
You mean "no"? Who said they weren't listening or entertaining offers? I'm pretty sure that McDaniels has said they listened to offers. Xanders is the GM and as such has a right to entertain any and all offers. I thought the point that made Jay mad was that he was being shopped and Denver lied about it. According to this he wasn't and they didn't initiate the trade talks.

Now are you changing the parameters of what you're upset with McDaniels about to the "he should never have even answered the phone" stance?


Yeah, I was on the phone when I wrote that. I made changes.

What have I been upset with? Id like for you to let me know what you think my position has been.

mr007
04-06-2009, 04:57 PM
Who gives a ****... it's over.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 05:01 PM
Who gives a ****... it's over.

How dare people on a Broncos messageboard speculate about/discuss things pertaining to the Broncos! ::)

broncos-rock
04-06-2009, 05:03 PM
The Cutler Chronicles, 1,2,3:

1. Knowing McD's history with Cassel, teams contact Broncos about possible trade scenarios.
2. Bus Cook hears words "trade" + "Cutler", and decides to exploit the situation for a payday.
3. Nothing that the Broncos did or could have done would have changed a thing. See #2.
4. Cutler traded; Cook will soon demand a new jumbo contract, gets his payday.
5. Cutler's career will almost certainly be less successful than it would have been had he remained in Denver. Doesn't matter to either Cutler or Cook, see #2.
6. Denver gets serviceable QB for '09, five first day picks in '09, two first rounders in '10, and rids themselves of a stunningly immature, albeit talented, hard-drinking diabetic QB with a career losing record in the pros and in college.
7. We're better off.

I listened to this interview live and I have to say I was very impressed with McDaniels. I was curious if Logan would go easy on him and that really was'nt the case. I also liked the fact that Logan did'nt like the trade as alot of us feel but have come to accept it.

Kaylore
04-06-2009, 05:03 PM
I could not disagree more with that statement, much less "admit" it. Jay is a selfish, petulant child, but I don't think he really wanted out. His bizarre comments right after the trade - that DomCasual posted above - show that he really didn't appreciate the gravity of a trade. He sounded shell-shocked, saying crazy stuff. At least that's what I took from those strange comments - that once the trade happened, Jay was shocked by the reality of it.

LOL You really believe everything this kid says, don't you? That ridiculous comment is one of the biggest things that everyone is blasting him on. He said in March that he "demanded a trade" and then he's traded and says he's surprised? They fired Shanahan and Bates, these are moves he publicly disagreed with, and then demanded a trade, something that when asked point blank on NFL network he didn't deny. Then he pretends he's so personally wounded to be considered in a trade that he can't work with the team anymore? Is there a person out there in pro sports who is so easily offended by being considered in a trade that he refuses to even return calls to his employer? The answer is no. Not even Cutler. Cutler was looking for a way out of town and jumped on the first thing he could pretend to be upset about.

There is nothing McDaniels or Bowlen could have said that would have fixed the situation because Cutler didn't want to be here.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Xanders is the GM and as such has a right to entertain any and all offers.

The team of course has every right and obligation to entertain any and all offers. Nobody has ever denied that, Khan. But Josh is in charge ... Brian Xanders is completely irrelevant in all of this. Bowlen basically admitted such in his letter to the season-ticket holders, wherein he wrote again and again about Josh's responsibility, Josh's goals, Josh's plan, etc. Bowlen mentioned Xanders only once, and then only as a tack-on to Josh.

If you haven't seen that letter, you should really read it. In Bowlen's own written words - he confirmed what I started writing about a month ago, that Josh is entirely in charge, and Brian is his subordinate. And thus, Bowlen has failed to deliver the power-sharing structure he promised the day after Shanahan was fired.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:16 PM
LOL You really believe everything this kid says, don't you? That ridiculous comment is one of the biggest things that everyone is blasting him on.

Khan, you didn't read my post ... I said basically the same thing you did, that Jay was talikng "crazy stuff," "bizarre comments," sounded "shell-shocked." I said nothing about "believing" Jay. I said (and I believe) that he's an immature child who did not appreciate the gravity of his trade demands.

I think Jay's rank immaturity was the biggest problem in this entire fiasco. But I think an experienced coach/GM might've been able to smoothe over problem in that Saturday meeting. Josh's small-college coach's son authoritative, anti-star mentality was a problem here ... but Jay's immaturity was a bigger problem.

Circle Orange
04-06-2009, 05:17 PM
I almost believe now Cutler made his mind up to leave once Shanahan was out of the picture. The rest of this domino stuff just seems too convenient.

Broncomutt
04-06-2009, 05:18 PM
Bowlen fired the greatest coach ever. McDaniels once worked for another NFL franchise and therefore must still be loyal to them.

I refuse to believe a single word Bowlen or McDaniels will ever say.

In fact, I am convinced Cutler is still our QB. Bowlen and McDaniels are lying about the trade obviously. I mean really, how could Orton get to Denver for workouts so quickly? Lies, lies, lies!

Thank God I didn't throw away my Cutler jersey. The rest of you are gonna look like suckers come September.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 05:18 PM
Pat should be angry with McDaniels as well. McDaniels desire to have a less talented QB because he knew the system is extremely shortsighted and violates a sense of stewardship. What if McDaniels doesnt last 2 seasons? Are we to believe we would have then been better off with Cassel than Cutler? Nonsense. If McDaniels couldnt work with Cutler, he shouldnt have put himself in the running for the job.

God, you're a turd. If you were an X-Man, that would be your mutation. You'd be known as Turdman with the secret power that you can stink everybody out of the room.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
04-06-2009, 05:21 PM
Let me ask you people something. How many times does a guilty man profess his innocence?

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 05:24 PM
I could not disagree more with that statement, much less "admit" it. Jay is a selfish, petulant child, but I don't think he really wanted out. His bizarre comments right after the trade - that DomCasual posted above - show that he really didn't appreciate the gravity of a trade. He sounded shell-shocked, saying crazy stuff. At least that's what I took from those strange comments - that once the trade happened, Jay was shocked by the reality of it.

Maybe the explanation is simple: Jay's been drunk throughout the whole affair. Now that I know more about him, I'm glad he's out of the Broncos locker-room. We'll be a better team for it.

bronco610
04-06-2009, 05:28 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing.

Also, the fact that the trade starts started a day or two before FA doesnt look good for McDaniels. If he was really as disinterested as he's letting on, how was this whole process spread out over 3 days? This is the first Ive heard that the trade talks started before FA started. I had only heard that it happened with in a day of Cassel getting traded to KC. This is actually kind of damning for McDaniels.

Jay is Gone. Lex I have read many great posts by you. Let this subject go my friend.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Bowlen fired the greatest coach ever. McDaniels once worked for another NFL franchise and therefore must still be loyal to them.

I refuse to believe a single word Bowlen or McDaniels will ever say.

In fact, I am convinced Cutler is still our QB. Bowlen and McDaniels are lying about the trade obviously. I mean really, how could Orton get to Denver for workouts so quickly? Lies, lies, lies!

Thank God I didn't throw away my Cutler jersey. The rest of you are gonna look like suckers come September.

It's like the moon landing and the JFK assassination, all rolled into one.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
04-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Who gives a ****... it's over.

Heres the thing. Its not over. Because there is a sh!t load of revisionist history going on.

baja
04-06-2009, 05:32 PM
I don't see how Cutler's perceived demeanor plays into this at all. Terry Bradshaw is a complete a-hole and he won more superbowls than we will ever see, would all of you say no to Bradshaw running the show if it meant wins? Who gives a ****, really?<b> Cutler was good and getting better, and that is all that matters.

You could be right but he just as easily could go all Jeff George on us.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:33 PM
Jay is Gone. Lex I have read many great posts by you. Let this subject go my friend.Who gives a ****... it's over.

I think I'm gonna take this advice ... the draft is less than three weeks away, it's about time to move on.

lex
04-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Khan, you didn't read my post ... I said basically the same thing you did, that Jay was talikng "crazy stuff," "bizarre comments," sounded "shell-shocked." I said nothing about "believing" Jay. I said (and I believe) that he's an immature child who did not appreciate the gravity of his trade demands.

I think Jay's rank immaturity was the biggest problem in this entire fiasco. But I think an experienced coach/GM might've been able to smoothe over problem in that Saturday meeting. Josh's small-college coach's son authoritative, anti-star mentality was a problem here ... but Jay's immaturity was a bigger problem.

At the time Jay said that he didnt want to be traded, it could have been that he had moved on since initially asking for the trade in that he was expecting to show up to the mandatory camp. But at the same time, he may not have been ready to acknowledge the front office. Lets not forget, Pat made a lot of statements that he went back on. People seem to be forgetting that. People may not want to believe it matters but tell that to Cutler.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:36 PM
You could be right but he just as easily could go all Jeff George on us.

"Just as easily"?? Have you been watching these last 2 1/2 years? That kid is golden, and he's gonna prove it.

lex
04-06-2009, 05:39 PM
I think I'm gonna take this advice ... the draft is less than three weeks away, it's about time to move on.


Its true that what is done, is done. But this thread started out with another assertion that Josh providing a self-serving explanation is somehow proof of his innocence.

Its not possible to look past the fact that McDaniels is a liar if people dont stop trying to affirm that he's not and confronting those who arent buying his story (or stories).

SportinOne
04-06-2009, 05:43 PM
"Just as easily"?? Have you been watching these last 2 1/2 years? That kid is golden, and he's gonna prove it.

I'm not leaving the Broncos for the Bears by any stretch of the imagination. But I live less than three hours from Soldier Field. I can make that trip probably 3 or 4 times a year and it will still cost me less than a trip to Mile High.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Its true that what is done, is done. But this thread started out with another assertion that Josh providing a self-serving explanation is somehow proof of his innocence.

Its not possible to look past the fact that McDaniels is a liar if people dont stop trying to affirm that he's not and trying to confronting those who arent buying his story (or stories).

Why do you buy Cutler's story and not McDaniels'? Why are McDaniels' words "self-serving" but Cutler's somehow are not?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:52 PM
Its not possible to look past the fact that McDaniels is a liar if people dont stop trying to affirm that he's not and trying to confronting those who arent buying his story (or stories).

I think skepticism about McDaniels is the proper approach:

He was the Pats' OC/Playcaller during the biggest scandal in league history, wherein the Pats' OC/Playcaller was alleged to have known the opponents' defense ahead of time by stealing signals (it's more than "alleged," there's 500,000 reasons to believe it was true, at least to some extent.)
He's what, the second youngest coach in the history of the NFL? By a couple months?
His appearance and immediate takeover of most of Shanahan's power (which is basically acknowledged in Bowlen's letter to season ticket holders), coincides with an argument and the loss of our star quarterback, and the surprise firing (after Bowlen promised the opposite) of the best-drafting exec we ever had, the best drafting exec in the league.

Plus he's a newcomer, which should by itself engender some skepticism.

I just don't understand the willingness of so many here to lie down to Josh, and rail against all those who question him. It's FINE to support Josh, but there are some pretty serious issues here.

SportinOne
04-06-2009, 05:54 PM
I just think a lot of Bronco fans, especially the older ones, felt extremely slighted when they first heard that Cutler asked to be traded. Perhaps they felt like he disrespected the team and the team's fans.

What I don't get is how people still claim that this was about money. It was NEVER about money, ever. Cutler was angry that someone wanted to trade him. Why did he feel so entitled? Probably because Shanahan spent a lot of time talking him up, telling him how great he was. He's also a pro bowl quarterback but whatever...

Then McDaniels comes in and basically says, "You're expendable." Did Cutler force the trade? I don't know. It really doesn't matter anymore because the end result is that he's gone and I don't think anyone really wanted that.

My point is that this was all about respect. McDaniels, while he might be a great coach, is probably an arrogant dickhead in real life. Perhaps Cutler is as well. Now you see why two people, with completely different philosophies, had some serious issues. It happens all the time in bands when two great talents just don't mesh.

This is why I have a problem with the Bronco's front office. It is THEIR JOB to make these things work. If I am McDaniels, I am doing everything that I can to get him to come back. Yes, it has been reported that Cutler didn't answer his or Pat's phone calls. How many phone calls did they make? Did they leave voicemails? Who knows, they never said. I'm not saying Cutler isn't to blame, he acted like a child. But if they REALLY wanted Cutler in Denver it could have happened. Cutler went on record to say that he'd be at all mandatory camps.

baja
04-06-2009, 05:56 PM
What's funny is according to this McDaniels had talks going for Cutler several days and still didn't pull the trigger and that's proof to Lex that McDaniels lied. After several days we were knee deep in several free agents. McDaniels was a big reason Dawkins came here. That tells me a lot about where McDaniels' priorities were the day of free agency.

Just admit it: Cutler wanted out and nothing McDaniels did would have changed that.

I think Jay was genuinely surprised that he was traded so fast, he expected them (Broncos) to run and coddle him and beg he to except a shiny new contract as a way of making up to him their grand insult.

I would love to be a fly on the wall listening to Jay talking to Bus, "Yo Bus thought you said they'd cave?? Man they traded me to f*n Chicago, it's real cold and windy there Bus. I never wanted to be f*n traded Bus. Go call them and say it's all a mistake and the only reason I did this was because you said I'd get a new contract. Damn Bus what the F**k have you done to me........"

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 05:56 PM
I just think a lot of Bronco fans, especially the older ones, felt extremely slighted when they first heard that Cutler asked to be traded. Perhaps they felt like he disrespected the team and the team's fans.

What I don't get is how people still claim that this was about money. It was NEVER about money, ever. Cutler was angry that someone wanted to trade him. Why did he feel so entitled? Probably because Shanahan spent a lot of time talking him up, telling him how great he was. He's also a pro bowl quarterback but whatever...

Then McDaniels comes in and basically says, "You're expendable." Did he force the trade? I don't know. It really doesn't matter anymore because the end result is that he's gone and I don't think anyone really wanted that.

My point is that this was all about respect. McDaniels, while he might be a great coach, is probably an arrogant dickhead in real life. Perhaps Cutler is as well. Now you see why two people, with completely different philosophies, could never come together. It happens all the time in bands when two great talents just don't mesh.

If I learned one thing in my 30 years of living, its that its always about money

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:57 PM
What I don't get is how people still claim that this was about money. It was NEVER about money, ever. Cutler was angry that someone wanted to trade him. Why did he feel so entitled? Probably because Shanahan spent a lot of time talking him up, telling him how great he was. He's also a pro bowl quarterback but whatever...

Then McDaniels comes in and basically says, "You're expendable." Did he force the trade? I don't know. It really doesn't matter anymore because the end result is that he's gone and I don't think anyone really wanted that.

My point is that this was all about respect. McDaniels, while he might be a great coach, is probably an arrogant dickhead in real life. Perhaps Cutler is as well. Now you see why two people, with completely different philosophies, could never come together. It happens all the time in bands when two great talents just don't mesh.

I agree with every word.

And BTW, you're right it was not about money. Angelo and Bus Cook agreed this weekend to wait 'til next season is over to negotiate a new contract.

But don't hold your breath that those wild-eyed "This is all about Jay wanting a new contact!" conspiracy fools will come in here and cop to their mistake. :~ohyah!:

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 06:00 PM
I agree with every word.

And BTW, you're right it was not about money. Angelo and Bus Cook agreed this weekend to wait 'til next season is over to negotiate a new contract.

But don't hold your breath that those wild-eyed "This is all about Jay wanting a new contact!" conspiracy fools will come in here and cop to their mistake. :~ohyah!:

I think Jay wanted money, but I don;t really blame him. This is, afterall, a business, as his detractors like to point out. They just don't like when it is used against them.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 06:08 PM
I agree with every word.

And BTW, you're right it was not about money. Angelo and Bus Cook agreed this weekend to wait 'til next season is over to negotiate a new contract.

But don't hold your breath that those wild-eyed "This is all about Jay wanting a new contact!" conspiracy fools will come in here and cop to their mistake. :~ohyah!:

Agreed? What was Bus going to say? What leverage does he have now?

baja
04-06-2009, 06:19 PM
"Just as easily"?? Have you been watching these last 2 1/2 years? That kid is golden, and he's gonna prove it.

Yes just as easy, he's 17 and 20, careless with the ball, unreasonable and reclusive (ala Griese).

Doesn't sound like there is any morning going on at Dove Valley.

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 06:19 PM
LOL You really believe everything this kid says, don't you? That ridiculous comment is one of the biggest things that everyone is blasting him on. He said in March that he "demanded a trade" and then he's traded and says he's surprised? They fired Shanahan and Bates, these are moves he publicly disagreed with, and then demanded a trade, something that when asked point blank on NFL network he didn't deny. Then he pretends he's so personally wounded to be considered in a trade that he can't work with the team anymore? Is there a person out there in pro sports who is so easily offended by being considered in a trade that he refuses to even return calls to his employer? The answer is no. Not even Cutler. Cutler was looking for a way out of town and jumped on the first thing he could pretend to be upset about.

There is nothing McDaniels or Bowlen could have said that would have fixed the situation because Cutler didn't want to be here.


At some point we have to be able to make our own rational judgements based on what we see and hear and without being ridiculed for not eating up what ever is fed by the Bronco Mgt or questioned for our fandom. Assuming that Josh had indeed tried to trade Jay, what would you expect him to say now?

I do not know if he did or not and at what point Jay decided that he is not coming back, But this is what see.

i. Jay cutler gave a very Pro JMac interview to Rome during SB weekend.
ii. He was in Denver before the voluntary workouts and trying to learn the new system.
iii. When rumours broke out of trade, Jay released a press statement thru Vic, where he claimed that team is supoprting him. Scheff supports him publicly.
vi. Broncos do not say anything for 2 days except that they have already said what they had to. IMO, at this point instead of trying to teach Jay a lesson for making a anti-coach statement, if the Broncos anounced something like Jay is our guy and we understand that he is upset and we will make up with him internally. case closed. Instead -

vi. No statement from Borncos but DP reports that scheff is on trade block and Peter King reports it was Jay who initiated trade request. Even if it is true, if Broncos sincerely want to bring him back, why would they let it get out?

vii. No statement from Broncos but reports come out that Josh met with Marshal. No comments from marshal afterwards

viii. Still no stamement from Broncos but Bus cook gave an interview to fox sports where he says Broncos have cut off communication with them. I really do not know whether to believe him or not but Broncos do not deny it either.

viii. Still no stamament from Broncos, but DP reports that Broncos have signed Chris Sims for 2 year 6 mil contract.

ix. Finally Broncos anounce that they do not want to trade Jay and they will sort it out. By this time right or wrong Jay is being roasted in the media as cry baby and no one from Broncos give a single statement to suport him. Why not say something like - He our guy and if is being a baby he is still our baby and we will deal with it internally. Why the f#$@ not? That is how earn the trust of your player is it not? Anquan Boldin fought with his coach during a playoff game. Did the cardinals try to make him look bad in the media? I am sure he got roasted in the team meeting but to the media cardinals said it happens in the heat of the game and he still our guy. Why not the Broncos do the same thing? If Jay does not want to come back did Broncos give him any incentive to come back?

They were probably thinking that it will look as if the new coach has given in to a star player. I do not consider it as giving in. Broncos needlessly took a confrontational attitude in the beginning. By this point it became a team vs Jay thing instead of a minor disagreement and Jay is being viewed as a whiner. In the media perception is everything, even if he is acting immature, you don't show him up and make him look bad. You say he is our guy and you do this to every player on your team whether its Jay Cutler or Patrick Ramsey.

x. Finally a conference call - and in the conference call, Josh makes a point that Broncos will trade any player they want any time. Why do you have to say that? Just because you don't say it, your right doesn't disappear. There is an art in mgt, where you never make a conflict become a win/loss situation. You always give the other guy an option to give in without loosing face. Did broncos ever gave Jay that option. Not till its too late.

Some where around this point Jay has decided that he is not coming back. It has been established thanks to Broncos PR machine that Jay is very stubborn. Once he has decided he was not coming back there is not turning back.

Josh may be very smart guy but you need a different skill set to being a HC than OC. You need to be able manage your coaches/personalities more than design plays - if anything Mike Tomlin proved it this last year.

Killericon
04-06-2009, 06:22 PM
No kidding ... that didn't occur to him? Hula, you think this is "proof" of something? Cutler is gone ... anybody in their right mind is going to put themselves in the best light possible.

Plus, that account has a screwy timeline. He says the team called Jay and Bus first .... that the TEAM informed THEM. But I thought Jay found out about it elsewhere - remember Jay said "numerous sources" told him? - and that was the basis of this entire problem.

This is my problem with this place right now. Either you believe Josh or your believe Jay, and the reality is probably somewhere in between.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 06:29 PM
This is my problem with this place right now. Either you believe Josh or your believe Jay, and the reality is probably somewhere in between.

Actually, I've been pretty much in the middle. I've said all along that Jay's been way too immature here ... I just think that an experienced coach or GM could've smoothed over that and made things right. Mature, experienced management would've handled this. Mike Shanahan would've handled this.

Contrary to what it might seem, I personally think Jay is more at fault here - he should have come back in after the owners meetings. It was well-documented that Bowlen and Josh spoke to nobody at the meetings, they refused to negotiate. A mature Jay would have used that as cover to say, "I guess they want me after all, I'm coming in."

Instead, he ignored Pat's calls. Dumb, dumb, dumb. He lost out on the best young O-Line and the best young WR corps in the league.

Killericon
04-06-2009, 06:32 PM
Actually, I've been pretty much in the middle. I've said all along that Jay's been way too immature here ... I just think that an experienced coach or GM could've smoothed over that and made things right. Mature, experienced management would've handled this. Mike Shanahan would've handled this.

Contrary to what it might seem, I personally think Jay is more at fault here - he should have come back in after the owners meetings. It was well-documented that Bowlen and Josh spoke to nobody at the meetings, they refused to negotiate. A mature Jay would have used that as cover to say, "I guess they want me after all, I'm coming in."

Instead, he ignored Pat's calls. Dumb, dumb, dumb. He lost out on the best young O-Line and the best young WR corps in the league.

Hey, fair enough, I was just exacerbated by your using a quote from Jay to disprove a quote from Josh, while saying "Don't you think Josh will say stuff to make him look good?" Seems...Partisan.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 06:35 PM
At some point we have to be able to make our own rational judgements based on what we see and hear and without being ridiculed for not eating up what ever is fed by the Bronco Mgt or questioned for our fandom.

That's exactly what I feel ... like I'm being attacked for questioning the approach of this completely inexperienced kid. Khan, Popps, Mooseguy, even Rohirrim, it's constant attacks. How dare I question King Josh?

Problem is, King Josh never made a single trade, and never dealt with a single agent. Ever. Until the Cutler fiasco. And I'm supposed to side with him? Puh-lease.

Inkana7
04-06-2009, 06:42 PM
That's exactly what I feel ... like I'm being attacked for questioning the approach of this completely inexperienced kid. Khan, Popps, Mooseguy, even Rohirrim, it's constant attacks. How dare I question King Josh?

Problem is, King Josh never made a single trade, and never dealt with a single agent. Ever. Until the Cutler fiasco. And I'm supposed to side with him? Puh-lease.

But the fact that you don't support him and immediately place ALL of the blame on him because he's inexperienced is illogical and maddenng.

Rock Chalk
04-06-2009, 06:50 PM
It never gets old.

Jay bashes all Bronco fans.

Jay whines about everything.

Jay has been proven to be a liar, the only one to be proven to be a liar (I didnt really want to be traded!), and the same people still defend him.

Go be Bear fans you ****ing douchebags.

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 06:58 PM
But the fact that you don't support him and immediately place ALL of the blame on him because he's inexperienced is illogical and maddenng.

For the record Ink, I voted that irrespective of how this turns out we should give Josh 2 years and 3 drafts to prove himself.

I think Broncos missed a trick in not coming out and suporting Jay in the media immediately. Imagine if Josh came out against Trent Dilfer for criticising Jay and said Jay is our guy and is part of the team or deny fox31 report? I think they were too caught up in the fear that it will look like giving in to a star.

TotallyScrewed
04-06-2009, 06:58 PM
Just curious. I still haven't had anyone give me a reasonable guess as to what McDaniels/Bowlen's motivation would be for lying about Jay not returning their calls.

Maybe they lied about the initial trade talks. Maybe they didn't. But from there, why would they ever say they were trying to reach out to him when they actually weren't? Pat Bowlen has a lot more to lose than gain by losing Jay Cutler. Why would he lie about the situation?

Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

lazarus4444
04-06-2009, 07:13 PM
You know, that's a pretty good point. I wonder if Tatum had anything to do with getting Jay his cell phone. This whole deal could seriously just be Tatum's extravagant way of getting back at the organization over trading him to Detroit.

If i was traded to Detroit i would do something utterly diabolical like this in order to get my revenge. :strong:

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 07:14 PM
Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

I would also like to ask why the f#$% are they letting this out? If Bowlen tried to call and jay did return the calls why did you leak it to the media? why not deny it? How does it help them in resolving the issue? Other than make Jay look bad it does not accomplish anything.

I understand them including it in the final statement by Bowlen but there were reports in the first week that Jay did not return Bowlen's calls. If they were sincere about bringing him back why leak it at that time? If they really want him back why are you leaking that Jay's alcoholism is a concern. Even better why not deny it when it came out?

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 07:16 PM
It never gets old.

Go be Bear fans you ****ing douchebags.

You are better than this Rock. Just becaase you are a fan of the team does not mean you have to support every decision the mgt makes. I, socal and others have as much right as you are to draw our own conclusions.

wandlc
04-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

Pretty much says it right there. Both sides violated the precepts of Sun Tzu.

DivineBronco
04-06-2009, 07:22 PM
everything bus cook does for the next year with cutler falls into having to rebuild his image.....asking for a contract now after most of the public now believes Jay is a whiney child would be a public realtions nightmare. At some point despite being an awful human even Cook knows he has to cut his loses and help people believe Jay is a good kid.

Dedhed
04-06-2009, 07:27 PM
How do people lend Cutler any credibility after his comments saying he never really wanted to leave Denver?

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 07:28 PM
Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

qft.

baja
04-06-2009, 07:41 PM
everything bus cook does for the next year with cutler falls into having to rebuild his image.....asking for a contract now after most of the public now believes Jay is a whiney child would be a public realtions nightmare. At some point despite being an awful human even Cook knows he has to cut his loses and help people believe Jay is a good kid.

Ya that's what I'm thinking too. Likely both thought the broncos would offer a new contract, they were not prepared for Bowlen to pull the trigger but once he did he turned the tables on then and their ransom contract so, as you point out no way they can ask for a contract this year.

Well done Pat.

El Minion
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
At some point we have to be able to make our own rational judgements based on what we see and hear and without being ridiculed for not eating up what ever is fed by the Bronco Mgt or questioned for our fandom. Assuming that Josh had indeed tried to trade Jay, what would you expect him to say now?

I do not know if he did or not and at what point Jay decided that he is not coming back, But this is what see.

i. Jay cutler gave a very Pro JMac interview to Rome during SB weekend.
ii. He was in Denver before the voluntary workouts and trying to learn the new system.
iii. When rumours broke out of trade, Jay released a press statement thru Vic, where he claimed that team is supoprting him. Scheff supports him publicly.
vi. Broncos do not say anything for 2 days except that they have already said what they had to. IMO, at this point instead of trying to teach Jay a lesson for making a anti-coach statement, if the Broncos anounced something like Jay is our guy and we understand that he is upset and we will make up with him internally. case closed. Instead -

vi. No statement from Borncos but DP reports that scheff is on trade block and Peter King reports it was Jay who initiated trade request. Even if it is true, if Broncos sincerely want to bring him back, why would they let it get out?

vii. No statement from Broncos but reports come out that Josh met with Marshal. No comments from marshal afterwards

viii. Still no stamement from Broncos but Bus cook gave an interview to fox sports where he says Broncos have cut off communication with them. I really do not know whether to believe him or not but Broncos do not deny it either.

viii. Still no stamament from Broncos, but DP reports that Broncos have signed Chris Sims for 2 year 6 mil contract.

ix. Finally Broncos anounce that they do not want to trade Jay and they will sort it out. By this time right or wrong Jay is being roasted in the media as cry baby and no one from Broncos give a single statement to suport him. Why not say something like - He our guy and if is being a baby he is still our baby and we will deal with it internally. Why the f#$@ not? That is how earn the trust of your player is it not? Anquan Boldin fought with his coach during a playoff game. Did the cardinals try to make him look bad in the media? I am sure he got roasted in the team meeting but to the media cardinals said it happens in the heat of the game and he still our guy. Why not the Broncos do the same thing? If Jay does not want to come back did Broncos give him any incentive to come back?

They were probably thinking that it will look as if the new coach has given in to a star player. I do not consider it as giving in. Broncos needlessly took a confrontational attitude in the beginning. By this point it became a team vs Jay thing instead of a minor disagreement and Jay is being viewed as a whiner. In the media perception is everything, even if he is acting immature, you don't show him up and make him look bad. You say he is our guy and you do this to every player on your team whether its Jay Cutler or Patrick Ramsey.

x. Finally a conference call - and in the conference call, Josh makes a point that Broncos will trade any player they want any time. Why do you have to say that? Just because you don't say it, your right doesn't disappear. There is an art in mgt, where you never make a conflict become a win/loss situation. You always give the other guy an option to give in without loosing face. Did broncos ever gave Jay that option. Not till its too late.

Some where around this point Jay has decided that he is not coming back. It has been established thanks to Broncos PR machine that Jay is very stubborn. Once he has decided he was not coming back there is not turning back.

Josh may be very smart guy but you need a different skill set to being a HC than OC. You need to be able manage your coaches/personalities more than design plays - if anything Mike Tomlin proved it this last year.

Exactly, why let your franchise QB twist in the wind, he didn't initiate the trade talks. McD mishandled it from the beginning, who wants to play for a lying or untrustworthy coach, or one that allows themselves to be portrayed/viewed as one. The FO using the media against Jay during this whole mess was idiotic and not the Patriot way. I can't remember the last time Belichick had this kind of battle with a player played out in the press.

scttgrd
04-06-2009, 07:43 PM
Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

Nobody here wants to consider the idea that Bowlen hired an inexperienced coach who messed things up. We can all see what happened, the situation was allowed to implode. How many players have acted like selfish immature asses and the organization just let it settle and things were fine before you knew it.

This was a major blunder, and it gives alot of people little confidence in the coach and GM. Now we are going to kill in the draft without an experienced guy anywhere to be found and no real scouting department. Yeah im less than optimistic.

Don't get me wrong, I want things to work out great. But this isn't the way to start.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 07:49 PM
everything bus cook does for the next year with cutler falls into having to rebuild his image.....asking for a contract now after most of the public now believes Jay is a whiney child would be a public realtions nightmare. At some point despite being an awful human even Cook knows he has to cut his loses and help people believe Jay is a good kid.Ya that's what I'm thinking too. Likely both thought the broncos would offer a new contract, they were not prepared for Bowlen to pull the trigger but once he did he turned the tables on then and their ransom contract so, as you point out no way they can ask for a contract this year.

:rofl: HILARIOUS! You two are probably the same guys who were DEAD SURE and accused Jay that this whole fiasco was a Bus Cook conspiracy to force a new contract! And now that you're proven wrong, you hyper-rationalize to cover your wrong accusations, instead of just saying, "I was wrong about that."

"Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too..." :~ohyah!:

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Nobody here wants to consider the idea that Bowlen hired an inexperienced coach who messed things up. We can all see what happened, the situation was allowed to implode. How many players have acted like selfish immature asses and the organization just let it settle and things were fine before you knew it.

This was a major blunder, and it gives alot of people little confidence in the coach and GM. Now we are going to kill in the draft without an experienced guy anywhere to be found and no real scouting department. Yeah im less than optimistic.

Don't get me wrong, I want things to work out great. But this isn't the way to start.

I couldda written this post myself, word for word ... rep ^5

Broncojef
04-06-2009, 07:52 PM
Oh come on...they lost the best QB since Elway and you see no reason to lie about the how's and why for's??

Both sides painted themselves into a corner and neither were smart enough to say screw the paint. Pathetic!! But why give a crap...we're only fans.

I'd say Orton, two firsts and a third unpainted them pretty damn well and Cutler wasn't the best QB since Elway, he proved nothing while here.

scttgrd
04-06-2009, 07:53 PM
:rofl: HILARIOUS! You two are probably the same guys who were DEAD SURE and accused Jay that this whole fiasco was a Bus Cook conspiracy to force a new contract! And now that you're proven wrong, you hyper-rationalize to cover your wrong accusations, instead of just saying, "I was wrong about that."

"Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too..." :~ohyah!:

Oh no, in there reality it makes perfect sense. I hear they have medication for that nowadays.:thumbsup:

Boltjolt
04-06-2009, 07:57 PM
A link was not provided but here is yet another twist to the whiner/crybaby that is Jay Cutler:

Sunday's Cleveland Plain Dealer shared some inside discussions when Cutler was being aggressively shopped. At one point, Cleveland was a strong trading partner. But Cutler, through his agent Bus Cook, let it be known that he would not play for the Browns and would hold out if traded there. He does not like Mangini (although he has had very little interaction, if any with him) and was reportedly very put off by the way Favre was treated by the Jets when Mangini was there.

baja
04-06-2009, 07:59 PM
:rofl: HILARIOUS! You two are probably the same guys who were DEAD SURE and accused Jay that this whole fiasco was a Bus Cook conspiracy to force a new contract! And now that you're proven wrong, you hyper-rationalize to cover your wrong accusations, instead of just saying, "I was wrong about that."

"Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too..." :~ohyah!:

Oh like the hypothesis is unreasonable. OK then.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 08:01 PM
A link was not provided but here is yet another twist to the whiner/crybaby that is Jay Cutler:

Sunday's Cleveland Plain Dealer shared some inside discussions when Cutler was being aggressively shopped. At one point, Cleveland was a strong trading partner. But Cutler, through his agent Bus Cook, let it be known that he would not play for the Browns and would hold out if traded there. He does not like Mangini (although he has had very little interaction, if any with him) and was reportedly very put off by the way Favre was treated by the Jets when Mangini was there.

Lots of folks don't like Mangini. He and Shaun Rogers are like a couple of junior high school girls for hevvinsake.

Hating Mangini is like the bird virus - it just keeps spreading.

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 08:03 PM
Exactly, why let your franchise QB twist in the wind, he didn't initiate the trade talks. McD mishandled it from the beginning, who wants to play for a lying or untrustworthy coach, or one that allows themselves to be portrayed/viewed as one. The FO using the media against Jay during this whole mess was idiotic and not the Patriot way. I can't remember the last time Belichick had this kind of battle with a player played out in the press.

My views exactly. 3(or 4?) years ago after SD beat NE, when Marty said something complementary about Pats, Brady bristled in the media. he basically said get the f@#$ of my team. It seemed childish to outsiders but I bet his team mates loved him for it. He was basically sending the message that we are together and you are an outsider. I do not remember one statement from Josh are Broncos supporting Jay till the owners meeting. Instead there were inneundos that Jay would have struggled to execute this sophisticated offense and Cassel is very smart blah blah.


Contrast that with Rivers situation last year. When Rivers was taking beating in the media, his team mates and mgt came out and supported him and look how it turned out for them.

Broncojef
04-06-2009, 08:03 PM
Nobody here wants to consider the idea that Bowlen hired an inexperienced coach who messed things up. We can all see what happened, the situation was allowed to implode. How many players have acted like selfish immature asses and the organization just let it settle and things were fine before you knew it.

This was a major blunder, and it gives alot of people little confidence in the coach and GM. Now we are going to kill in the draft without an experienced guy anywhere to be found and no real scouting department. Yeah im less than optimistic.

Don't get me wrong, I want things to work out great. But this isn't the way to start.

No, we consider it but when the facts point to an agent looking for a payday, jay ignoring communication from both the head coach and owner and contradicting himself at every turn whether he wants to be traded or not we draw logical conclusions. Jay was out for Jay and could care less about a new coach trying to build a team. Some of us have a great deal of confidence in the leadership and are happy we got rid of this cancer. Everyone in that lockerroom knows whos in charge and that we won't be held for ransom the next time someone wants to play games with their agent. The days of Shanahan's coddling are gone and some of us are way happy that Jay has left, no way did I want to cheer for him this year.

scttgrd
04-06-2009, 08:05 PM
Oh like the hypothesis is unreasonable. OK then.

Oh, theres plenty of blame to go around. But for some of you that seems to have turned into a one way street.

Call me crazy but I expected the front office to show more maturity than the crybaby QB. Too bad the ego's got in the way. That'll show em Clem! Get-em boys!

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:12 PM
Some people are just thick. How many times has Bus Cook done this? Why was this one different from last year's? Let's put it this way: How many times has Bowlen been involved in this kind of circus? How many times has Bus Cook? Maybe that's why Jay came out with so many conflicting statements. He was a young guy getting the wrong info from his agent and he didn't know what was going on.

baja
04-06-2009, 08:23 PM
Oh, theres plenty of blame to go around. But for some of you that seems to have turned into a one way street.

Call me crazy but I expected the front office to show more maturity than the crybaby QB. Too bad the ego's got in the way. That'll show em Clem! Get-em boys!

That supports my point, Of course they are not so dumb as to let what you Cutlerites are calling a "Franchise quarterback" walk away so easily therefore the only explanation for their, in your eyes, amateurish behavior is they do not hold Cutler is as high regard as you Cutlerites do and opted for the serviceable QB and the desperately needed picks.

One think is for sure time will clearly decide this one.

s0phr0syne
04-06-2009, 08:35 PM
Jeez, finally took the time to read this thread. It should be a dead topic soon, although I'm not helping it die any faster by posting in here.

Anyway, I just think that everything that needs to be said has been said. There are some really great posts in this thread, most notably by TheChamp and summrdenver.

If you read those posts carefully, even the most ardent pro-McD peeps should be able to come away with the point that: Yes, maybe Bus Cook/Cutler had decided they were going to force their way out of Denver no matter what, but Bronco management could have done more to try to retain Cutler or make it more difficult for him to keep the media on his side throughout the ordeal.

Even the most pro-Cutler people should be able to come away realizing that there's no guarantee that anything could have been done to retain Cutler. It is completely possible that the media savy Cook already had an endgame in mind from the beginning, and that wet behind the ears McD/Xanders hand no chance of anticipating team Cutler's next move, especially in terms of the information that was leaked.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:38 PM
That's exactly what I feel ... like I'm being attacked for questioning the approach of this completely inexperienced kid. Khan, Popps, Mooseguy, even Rohirrim, it's constant attacks. How dare I question King Josh?

Problem is, King Josh never made a single trade, and never dealt with a single agent. Ever. Until the Cutler fiasco. And I'm supposed to side with him? Puh-lease.

I'm not attacking anybody (well, except for a few noodleheads). You're taking the presentation of a conflicting argument as an attack. I've been trying to use logic. You just called McD a "completely inexperienced kid." That is an attack. It is also illogical. Angelo just admitted he was impressed with the cool way McD pulled off this trade. I'm even more impressed because I think he did it under orders of Bowlen and didn't want to do it, as his behavior at the owner's meeting makes clear. In the middle of this whole bargaining deal with Angelo, McD was still holding meetings with draftees. That's pretty damn cool headed. There's a reason a 32 year old gets to the position McD is in; He's shown people something. He has produced. I don't know whether I can trust McD. Don't know enough about him. Haven't seen a single play from a Broncos' team he's coached yet. But I trust Bowlen. In fact, I think it's disgraceful the way some have talked about Bowlen on this board. That man brought two championships to this cowtown. His commitment to this team is unquestionable. If he thinks McD is the best coach to lead the Broncos into the future, I'm sure as hell going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially over some kid that many over the last three years have described on this board as something of a punk. The punk is gone and the Broncos remain.
:bronxrox:

TonyR
04-06-2009, 08:38 PM
...an inexperienced coach who messed things up....

...This was a major blunder...

How did he mess up again? What was the "blunder"? Listening to trade offers? Not coddling Jay enough? What?

Some of you people are thick. Jay wanted out. He made that VERY clear. Except, apparently, to some of you guys who keep making up your own story.

Pseudofool
04-06-2009, 08:52 PM
And that was a big mistake. I wonder if Pat and Josh will learn from this mistake.It's not a mistake. You should never pander to any players emotional immaturity.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
.

Oh, and as far as your pm to me that the main argument on the McD side (if that's what it's called) that Cook was orchestrating this whole thing to squeeze out a new deal is proven wrong because he agreed not to ask the Bears for a new deal, let me offer another hypothesis:

This whole thing was orchestrated to squeeze a new deal out of the Broncos. I believe McD's behavior at the owner's meeting shows that his every intention was to bring Cutler back. And maybe they would have been offered a new contract by the Broncos. But they chose the wrong tactic by ignoring Bowlen's calls. That's when it blew up in their face. That's the moment when the dialogue changed completely. I believe at that point, Pat called McD into his office and said, "Get him out of here right now."

And McD saluted and said, "Yes, sir."

Once Jay and Cook went to Chicago they realized they didn't have a leg to stand on other than to play for a year and hope to bargain for a new deal next year. If they tried to pull anything now Cook would be blackballed in this league and Cutler's career would get torched. Anyway, seems logical to me. I also think that explains Cutler's conflicting statements.

Let's keep our discussions on the board. Who knows, somebody might find them entertaining. :wiggle:

baja
04-06-2009, 09:04 PM
Oh, and as far as your pm to me that the main argument on the McD side (if that's what it's called) that Cook was orchestrating this whole thing to squeeze out a new deal is proven wrong because he agreed not to ask the Bears for a new deal, let me offer another hypothesis:

This whole thing was orchestrated to squeeze a new deal out of the Broncos. I believe McD's behavior at the owner's meeting shows that his every intention was to bring Cutler back. And maybe they would have been offered a new contract by the Broncos. But they chose the wrong tactic by ignoring Bowlen's calls. That's when it blew up in their face. That's the moment when the dialogue changed completely. I believe at that point, Pat called McD into his office and said, "Get him out of here right now."

And McD saluted and said, "Yes, sir."

Once Jay and Cook went to Chicago they realized they didn't have a leg to stand on other than to play for a year and hope to bargain for a new deal next year. If they tried to pull anything now Cook would be blackballed in this league and Cutler's career would get torched. Anyway, seems logical to me. I also think that explains Cutler's conflicting statements.

Let's keep our discussions on the board. Who knows, somebody might find them entertaining. :wiggle:

I offered the very same explanation earlier all I got for my efforts was an (LOL) and a claim that my hypothesis was absurd.

Pseudofool
04-06-2009, 09:10 PM
BroncoBuff: Whatever leverage Jay and Cook had for a new contract with the Broncos went out the door when he was traded for Chicago.

It's not like Jay/Bus can parlay bad with the Broncos into a new contract with Chicago. It's really pretty basic.

MplsBronco
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
It's amazing how utterly ridiculous, foolish, idiotic, retarded, desparate and dumb the Jay apologists are on this. Goddamn, you people cannot be this stupid.

Anyway, break a leg, Jay. Seriously.

footstepsfrom#27
04-06-2009, 09:51 PM
I'm not reading through 5 freaking pages of this garbage when it all comes down to who you believe...becase at the end of the day NOBODY on this board KNOWS what really transpired unless you were in the room when it went down. Nobody.

But here's one undeniable FACT:

Pat Bowlen said on January 12th that he was not going to make changes in the front office. He then fired his front office people. Where I come from...when you say A and do B...we call that a LIE.

Bowlen lied on that...that's undeniable. So immediately his credibility is highly suspect as far as I'm concerned. Opie worked for and was mentored by who? Oh yeah...Bill Belicheat. More questions should rise as you consider that.

I side with Cutler and don't buy a word of this crap. If you were Cutler...why would you deliberately want to move away from the best pass blocking line in the NFL that kept you from hardly seeing the turf, a team loaded with offensive weapons...coming on the heels of your first pro bowl appearance? Nothing before this mess indicated he was in the least way unhappy, and in fact during the Plummer transition he was a perfect gentleman. But now we're supposed to believe all this BS because Pat Bowlen is backing the coach he fired a HOF guy in order to hire. Yeah...I'm sure he has no ulterior considerations since all he has to do is sell over priced seats to fed up fans who hold his financial future in their hands.

Jay had nothing showing on his resume to suggest he's any of the things a lot of people here are saying he is.

This is all about believing the side of whoever is still here because you can't stand to consider the alternative...that this team isn't necessarily made up of greatly ethical people. If somehow we traded for Cutler back again next season, 90% of the people on here who say he sucks and he's a head case and a turncoat would be calling him the Messiah all over again.

baja
04-06-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm not reading through 5 freaking pages of this garbage when it all comes down to who you believe...becase at the end of the day NOBODY on this board KNOWS what really transpired unless you were in the room when it went down. Nobody.

But here's one undeniable FACT:

Pat Bowlen said on January 12th that he was not going to make changes in the front office. He then fired his front office people. Where I come from...when you say A and do B...we call that a LIE.

Bowlen lied on that...that's undeniable. So immediately his credibility is highly suspect as far as I'm concerned. Opie worked for and was mentored by who? Oh yeah...Bill Belicheat. More questions should rise as you consider that.

I side with Cutler and don't buy a word of this crap. If you were Cutler...why would you deliberately want to move away from the best pass blocking line in the NFL that kept you from hardly seeing the turf, a team loaded with offensive weapons...coming on the heels of your first pro bowl appearance? Nothing before this mess indicated he was in the least way unhappy, and in fact during the Plummer transition he was a perfect gentleman. But now we're supposed to believe all this BS because Pat Bowlen is backing the coach he fired a HOF guy in order to hire. Yeah...I'm sure he has no ulterior considerations since all he has to do is sell over priced seats to fed up fans who hold his financial future in their hands.

Jay had nothing showing on his resume to suggest he's any of the things a lot of people here are saying he is.

This is all about believing the side of whoever is still here becausfe you can't stand to consider the alternative...that this team isn't necessarily made up of greatly ethical people. If somehow we traded for Cutler back again next season, 90% of the people on here who say he sucks and he's a head case and a turncoat would be calling him the Messiah all over again.

What happened to after further study and consideration we realized deeper changes were required.

Happens, these decisions are not make in a vacuum.

Drek
04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
:rofl: HILARIOUS! You two are probably the same guys who were DEAD SURE and accused Jay that this whole fiasco was a Bus Cook conspiracy to force a new contract! And now that you're proven wrong, you hyper-rationalize to cover your wrong accusations, instead of just saying, "I was wrong about that."

"Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too..." :~ohyah!:

Cutler and Cook used all the leverage they had on Denver. You only get to cry wolf once in this league before you're seen as a head case, and Cutler just used it up. If he tried again right now to force a new deal when he's got three years left he'd instantly be branded a T.O. level of problem.

In short: they don't have an option but to play nice.

But you keep trying to infer from things like that about what really went down, all the while making an assumption about McDaniels which if true would have multiple smoking gun sources out there, that hundreds of journalists have been trying to tap, and yet not a one has been produced. No one out of Tampa has leaked that McDaniels called them first. No one out of Detroit. No one out of New England.

You've got at least three other FOs in this league with no motivation to keep it a secret, and up until Jay was traded two of them had a pretty strong motivation to leak it if they could substantiate (as that would only further force the Broncos hand in trading Cutler).

No leaks. Still. The media largely is just taking it as an assumed truth that McDaniels wanted Cassel because its the angle they can best sell and without it its a painfully one sided affair where Jay Cutler looks like a little bitch.

And he's not going to be golden like you're assuming, at least not yet. He's still got a lot of work to do on his game, and now he won't have the two best OTs 25 and under and the two best WRs 25 and under, or his favorite TE, or the blocking TE who has been covering his ass pretty much every year he's been a full time starter. Or an offensive system that caters to him. He's go ta lot of obstacles to overcome on the football field.

Not to mention the most important part of it all, he's reaffirmed the suspicions (based on his late season play) that he's mentally weak. An ego is fine, arrogance is probably something every QB needs more than a single helping of, but Cutler is also a mentally weak individual who has shown very little ability to handle stress well. That is a kind of flaw that no coach, quality teammates, new organization, or new contract can fix.

lex
04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
It's not a mistake. You should never pander to any players emotional immaturity.


What is the saying..? "Everyone is replaceable, as long as you have someone to replace him." McDaniels blew it. He tried for Cassel and ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. Most of the immaturity came after the fact (if at all).

baja
04-06-2009, 10:10 PM
Ya know what is funny in all this is if McD had a failing in this saga it is he was too honest. I think he scared Jay away with his explanation of a work within the system QB, a team player and Jay said wait a minute I want the gunslinger role. This place isn't going to work,calls Bus and says get me outa here.

~Crash~
04-06-2009, 10:14 PM
Has it not occurred to you that Cutler might be doing the same?

link?Ha!

~Crash~
04-06-2009, 10:16 PM
proof lol that is what the mcliar crowd always want right ...

misturanderson
04-06-2009, 10:17 PM
What is the saying..? "Everyone is replaceable, as long as you have someone to replace him." McDaniels blew it. He tried for Cassel and ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. Most of the immaturity came after the fact (if at all).

Can you please stop acting like the deal was Cutler for Cassel straight-up? I mean seriously. The only logical leak had us getting 2 first rounders (#1 and #20) and Cassel for Cutler, a second and a third. And there is no gurantee that that was deal McDaniels was even willing to make since Cassel was moved before anything actually materialized.

baja
04-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Another funny thing is the Cutler camp accuses McD of being a lier and being inept yet for him to be less inept he would have to have been a better lier in order to entice Jay to be excited about his role in the new offense which is more about the team than the individual star.

Josh's mistake was not "selling " ( lying to ) Jay on his new offense.

lex
04-06-2009, 10:42 PM
Can you please stop acting like the deal was Cutler for Cassel straight-up? I mean seriously. The only logical leak had us getting 2 first rounders (#1 and #20) and Cassel for Cutler, a second and a third. And there is no gurantee that that was deal McDaniels was even willing to make since Cassel was moved before anything actually materialized.


And he ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. Not only that, but if McDaniels doesnt last and someone else comes in with a new system and we have Matt Cassel, then what? People are going to ask why we gave up Cutler.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 10:57 PM
But the fact that you immediately place ALL of the blame on him because he's inexperienced is illogical and maddenng.

I think it should be a bit embarassing for you to have said this ... when just three posts above yours, I said the following: "I personally think Jay is more at fault here." And I've said it elsewhere, too.

Time for an "oh, I guess I was wrong there," or maybe, "okay, sorry I missed that."

Please, this one is too obvious.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:06 PM
Oh like the hypothesis is unreasonable. OK then.

I NEVER SAID THAT, YA WEINER! The hypothesis that Jay's side of the fiasco was fueled by money, greed and the desire for a new contract was a reasonable hypothesis, especially in that Bus Cook has operated like that in the past.

What I'm saying is that when this hypothesis was proven wrong, guys should sack up and say maybe, "okay, but you can see why I thought it was possible." Instead, it's a gumby-like twister game of rationalization, where you and the other guy say stuff like, "he won't ask for a nw contract now because he'll look bad," and you say, "they lost their bid for a ransom contract." Sheesh, get over it, it's not about a contract ... and your hair won't fall out f you admit you had a theory that was wrong.

baja
04-06-2009, 11:15 PM
I NEVER SAID THAT, YA WEINER! The hypothesis that Jay's side of the fiasco was fueled by money, greed and the desire for a new contract was a reasonable hypothesis, especially in that Bus Cook has operated like that in the past.

What I'm saying is that when this hypothesis was proven wrong, guys should sack up and say maybe, "okay, but you can see why I thought it was possible." Instead, it's a gumby-like twister game of rationalization, where you and the other guy say stuff like, "he won't ask for a nw contract now because he'll look bad," and you say, "they lost their bid for a ransom contract." Sheesh, get over it, it's not about a contract ... and your hair won't fall out f you admit you had a theory that was wrong.

Maybe your spittle on the screen is blocking out some words. Because of the trade Buss can not make this about money now he and Jay would be crucified by everyone around the deal and around the league. and if you can't see the why of that without further explanation I don't know what to tell ya.

Ya Cutler and Bus proved they never were angling for a new deal because when Bowlen called their bull shiit bluff and traded his ass they didn't say to Chicago Oh we want more money after they said it's not about the money. Ya that was the move, more money Chicago.

It's my turn to LOL...

Steve Prefontaine
04-06-2009, 11:21 PM
Yay!!! More he said, he said crap. Fueled by people buying into whatever side they already determined was "correct".

Let this **** ****ing die already.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:22 PM
I'm not attacking anybody (well, except for a few noodleheads).
No no ... you have attacked people - a couple posts before the one I quoted here, you called us "thick" if we disagreed with the completely discredited theory this was all a Bus Cook ploy about money/new contract. Nobody on any side of this has EVER mentioned a new contract ... in fact, Bus and the Bears agreed to wait til next year.


You're taking the presentation of a conflicting argument as an attack. I've been trying to use logic. You just called McD a "completely inexperienced kid." That is an attack. It is also illogical.

I'm sorry Roh, but I gotta beat you down here. Everything you said there is wrong. In fact, Josh is a "completely inexperienced kid." Like it or not, those are FACTS, not an attack:
He has never negotiated a trade before the Cassel thing = FACT
He has never dealt officially with an agent before = FACT
He's never been a head coach on any level before = FACT
He IS a kid = FACT (he's the 2nd youngest head coach in LEAGUE HISTORY fer crissake Roh, by just a couple months! HE'S A KID!)

Roh, you're not using logic, you're using emotion. If you were "logical," you would respond something along the lines of "yes, he is inexperienced and he is just a kid, but..." Instead, you attack me by calling my statement of these two simple facts "an attack."

Sad.

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 11:25 PM
OH BY THE WAY: All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

What a freaking JOKE! ROFL! I'm just waking up here and checking back on the tread and find this comment particularly amusing. No doubt most of you other guys with properly functioning logic systems have already commented or at least recognized what was going on here on ,but in lieu of reading through the whole long thread at this point I've got to state the obvious here

There is ZERO mystery at all why no contract was demanded from the Bears! The Cook/****ler master plan of forcing a long time deal out of Denver (first and foremost) had just blown up in their faces big time when Bowlen called their bluff and literally threw Jay off the team for insubordination!

****ler was obvious stung deeply by all the criticism and huge hit to his reputation from the whole affair and that was obvious in his whole demeanor during the press conference and him being so "earnest" about having to rebuild himself and show everyone hes a great team mate etc.

As such, it took Bus and Jay about thirty seconds after hearing Bowlen's Tuesday night bombshell statement to realize that plan B had just been thrust in their laps and Jay would have to play out one year to repair his tarnished rep n the league and prove his value to the new team, then they could push for the new contract extension with the Bears next year!

Chicago just gave up a boat load of value to get him, ****ler is under contract for three more year and they have no reason at all to re-up him right now. For Jay to go crying now about needing a long term deal would be a PR Disaster of epic proportions and the national press (and Chicago press too once they wake up from the honeymoon) would eat him alive!

You can warm that crow pie up for yourself BB, and add a little whip cream on top! But hey, at least you are starting to come around I see, and I know it's painful to lose a QB of Jays talent, we all feel that, but the Broncos didn't begin nor do they end with Jay ****ler. Good Riddance to him! :sunshine:

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:31 PM
Maybe your spittle on the screen is blocking out some words. Because of the trade Buss can not make this about money now he and Jay would be crucified by everyone around the deal and around the league. and if you can't see the why of that without further explanation I don't know what to tell ya.

Ya Cutler and Bus proved they never were angling for a new deal because when Bowlen called their bull shiit bluff and traded his ass they didn't say to Chicago Oh we want more money after they said it's not about the money. Ya that was the move, more money Chicago. It's my turn to LOL...

Oh, now you're saying the "new contract greed theory" was only operable if he stayed in Denver? And was not about engineering a trade elsewhere so the new team would give him a new contract? That might've been YOUR theory, but it was not the predominant "new contract greed theory" on this board I was addressing.

I suspect you're twisting into a pretzel-justification pose again to avoid the reality that nobody ... NOBODY ... has mentioned anything about a new contract EVER.

Not Jay

Not Bus

Not Josh

Not Pat

Not Brian

Not Lovie

Not Angelo

NOBODY.

It's all a theory in your head. It's not an entirely unreasonable theory, but after Bus and the Bears said Friday they'd wait til next year, there's nothing left to base the theory on.

baja
04-06-2009, 11:37 PM
I bet there are over 10 stories alluding that this might be a ploy by Bus for a contract and hundreds of posts. The best strategy for Bus was to play hard to get," I an soooo hurt" and insinuate a new contract would prove the Broncos loyalty to Jay and that would make up for Josh's horrible crime of answering the phone about a trade offer.

Let me ask you this Buff do you really think this is all about hurt pride?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:46 PM
What a freaking JOKE! ROFL! I'm just waking up here and checking back on the tread and find this comment particularly amusing. No doubt most of you other guys with properly functioning logic systems have already commented or at least recognized what was going on here on ,but in lieu of reading through the whole long thread at this point I've got to state the obvious here

There is ZERO mystery at all why no contract was demanded from the Bears! The Cook/****ler master plan of forcing a long time deal out of Denver (first and foremost) had just blown up in their faces big time when Bowlen called their bluff and literally threw Jay off the team for insubordination!

You oughtta know Hula, that the vast majority of trades of veteran players - maybe 9 out of 10 - includes some new deal for the player. That's just the way things are done. If anything, Jay not asking for a new deal reflects well on him.

But make no mistake: The big theory on this board - the theory I was addressing - the theory that went all over the board - was that Jay and Bus didn't like that this dead money year on their contract and wanted a new contract or a trade to a new team that would give him a new contract. That theory has been proven wrong now, no doubt about that.

There are some rare occassions that trading a veteran player does NOT include a new deal ... example is Matt Cassel, because he is maxed out, sitting on the $15 million franchise player contract the Pats gave him, though he is still a somewhat unproven player. They're gonna wait to renegotiate because of this, and Cassel agreed to wait before the trade.

In Cutler's case, there was no new deal ... and Jay and Bus were right there to agree. One theory I heard why is that Eli and Phillip are both negotiating new deals, and were anxious to see what Jay and each other got so they could use a higher benchmark. Maybe Jay and Bus are so confident, they're gonna wait for Eli and Phillip to do deals so they can use that as a new benchmark. Maybe ???

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 11:47 PM
The fact that it still hasnt occurred to you that McDaniels might be saying what benefits him more is amazing ....



Of course I considered that, it was always in the realm of possiblity. But there has been not one single shred of compelling evidence to support Cutlers side of the coin whatsoever! Not one.

The arguments now of you guys still unavailable to realize you were backing the wrong horse in this deal rest solely on innuendo, third part reports and your "gut feeling" and "hunches". That is IT!

McD, Bowlen and the entire Denver organization has spoken repeatedly and consistently with one voice on this issue, after at first ceding the PR stage mostly to Baby Jay and Cook while hoping to let things simmer down and coax Jay back into the fold.

The press reports of Bowlen and McD are the only credible first person accounts of what went down that we have.

Cutler shutting up now with "no comment" has a lot less to do with him "moving on to his new team' (though that is his only viable option anyway). But rather because his story has come unglued and backfired in his face.

I mean he even acts like he was surprised he got traded and "didn't want this" while also denying that anyone from Denver tried to call him!!! Until Bowlen said to the press "Wanna see the phone records". ^5

I mean his whole position was compromised and so now the best he can say to save face and move on is "We both made mistakes and would do things differently". That is probably the one true thing from his mouth!

summerdenver
04-07-2009, 12:12 AM
Of course I considered that, it was always in the realm of possiblity. But there has been not one single shred of compelling evidence to support Cutlers side of the coin whatsoever! Not one.

The arguments now of you guys still unavailable to realize you were backing the wrong horse in this deal rest solely on innuendo, third part reports and your "gut feeling" and "hunches". That is IT!

McD, Bowlen and the entire Denver organization has spoken repeatedly and consistently with one voice on this issue, after at first ceding the PR stage mostly to Baby Jay and Cook while hoping to let things simmer down and coax Jay back into the fold.

The press reports of Bowlen and McD are the only credible first person accounts of what went down that we have.

Cutler shutting up now with "no comment" has a lot less to do with him "moving on to his new team' (though that is his only viable option anyway). But rather because his story has come unglued and backfired in his face.

I mean he even acts like he was surprised he got traded and "didn't want this" while also denying that anyone from Denver tried to call him!!! Until Bowlen said to the press "Wanna see the phone records". ^5

I mean his whole position was compromised and so now the best he can say to save face and move on is "We both made mistakes and would do things differently". That is probably the one true thing from his mouth!

At the risk of being accused as a douchebag bears fan, let me play the devils advocate here -

The crux of Jays complaint has been that he does not believe Josh wants him as his QB. Since the news broke out and till the owners meeting a month later can you give one statement from Broncos other than "Its a business and we have every right to do what is best for the team. If you don't follow it you are a anti team primadonna" (Well Brocnos did say the last one directly Jabar Gaffney did).

When a local radio host ridicules Jay on national radio show calling him a whiny bitch did a single guy from Broncos or his team mates give him a line of support?.
(Btw, Scott Hastings later confirmed that he called him a bitch because Jay said he has stronger arm than John - gasp can you imagine the nerve of a 25 year old kid - he said he has the stronger arm wow what a punk lets run him out of the town)

When Jay was being roasted by media and fans as a cry baby did Broncos issue a single statement to suport him? They were instead pouring fuel into the fire by leaking that he is not returning the calls or he asked to be traded or he is not liked by his team mates or he is an alcoholic or he is not bright.

Put yourself in Jay's shoes why would you want to come back to denver? What did the Broncos do to bring him back till a mnonth later? Did I miss something here? Commitment works both ways doesn't it?

lex
04-07-2009, 12:31 AM
At the risk of being accused as a douchebag bears fan, let me play the devils advocate here -

The crux of Jays complaint has been that he does not believe Josh wants him as his QB. Since the news broke out and till the owners meeting a month later can you give one statement from Broncos other than "Its a business and we have every right to do what is best for the team. If you don't follow it you are a anti team primadonna" (Well Brocnos did say the last one directly Jabar Gaffney did).

When a local radio host ridicules Jay on national radio show calling him a whiny b**** did a single guy from Broncos or his team mates give him a line of support?.
(Btw, Scott Hastings later confirmed that he called him a b**** because Jay said he has stronger arm than John - gasp can you imagine the nerve of a 25 year old kid - he said he has the stronger arm wow what a punk lets run him out of the town)

When Jay was being roasted by media and fans as a cry baby did Broncos issue a single statement to suport him? They were instead pouring fuel into the fire by leaking that he is not returning the calls or he asked to be traded or he is not liked by his team mates or he is an alcoholic or he is not bright.

Put yourself in Jay's shoes why would you want to come back to denver? What did the Broncos do to bring him back till a mnonth later? Did I miss something here? Commitment works both ways doesn't it?

I dont think Jay was jilted because Josh didnt want him as his QB. I think Jay was annoyed initially at Shanahans firing. He probably rubbed Bowlen the wrong way but also Bowlen probably made assurances to Jay just like he made a lot of assurances to everyone infront of everyone. And then Bowlen went and hired McDaniels, who he disliked and from there it kept getting worse. Bates was let go, the Goodmans were let go, and who knows what other promises Pat broke. McDaniels probably tried to use this subjugation ploy which intensified his distrust of a new regime that Cutler had reservations about all along. And then finally you have McDaniels trying to trade Cutler after he said that Jay was one of the reasons McDaniels wanted the job.

I think Josh wanted Jay to buy in absolutely and completely and was not willing to jump in feet first for this guy.

And whenever mistakes were made, Pat and Josh expected Jay to bite the bullet and be the better man.

I dont agree with everything Cutler did but I dont blame him for doing what he felt like he had to do to get out of town. I think the whole "I coach, you player" act from McDaniels was probably too heavy handed. And Jay wasnt buying what he was selling. He probably tried to look past his misgivings for a while but the posturing after the trade thing was probably the last straw. When someone lies to you when you know better, thats an insult and it seemed like the Broncos just tried to talk at Jay when telling him their explanation.

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Let me ask you this Buff do you really think this is all about hurt pride?

Since you asked, I'll tell you what I really think, but you're gonna be surprised: I think Jay Cutler is a grossly self-centered egotist who went over-the-top stubborn in staying away. He is a MAJOR league ass-crack, a couple guys on this board I trust have dealt with him at fan days, and the horror stories about his behavior are ghastly. I believe them, I think Jay is a total d!ck. And probably a mama's boy ... his relkationship with his parents seems a bit funny ... that's just a feeling though.


Here's what happened: An inexperienced Josh talked with several teams about Cassel, talks initiated elsewhere, by the Bucs/Vikes/Lions, guys who knew he loved Cassel. Josh probably wanted Cassel, but I don't think the talks advanced very far. I think Josh is a brash, hard-charging kid, and was evasive/dishonest with Jay - thinking Jay would not find out the true extent of the talks. But Josh had never dealt with any trades or agents before, so he was surprised that Jay knew as much as he did. Josh probably got defensive, and dug in his heels a bit ... he didn't have to do that, he hadn't done anything wrong ... but as a coach's son who's used to the authoritative relationships between small college players and coaches, and the similar Patriot approach, he felt he didn't owe this b****y emo star an explanation. And in the Saturday meeting, Josh refused to give him one.

So Jay and his itsy-bisty emo-ego felt shoved in a corner, which ticked him off even more, so he tantrumed his way out of town ... BUT HE LEFT THE DOOR CRACKED when he said "I'll show up for mandatory days." Maybe he thought he would bleed them, make them feel bad.

He was SO SURPRISED when the trade was announced, he sounded shocked! He said, "I didn't think they would trade me so soon." That tells me Jay was planning some drama, some last-minute showup, thinking he would avert a trade. He made such ridiculous statements, "this trade was not my doing." That statement is such RANK stupidity, such a pathetic denial of reality ... but it shows he was surprised. And that says to me he was planning something to maybe avert a trade. Probably something stupid, but something anyway. Remember, he said he'd be back for mandatory days ... he thought he'd have time then before a trade happened.

Maybe Jay will get married or something and mature someday. But even as a d!ckhead egotistical emo, I am really depressed we've lost him. I can honestly say I feel quite similar to how I fekt after one of the SB losses ... this is truly painful to me.

Jay was NAILS on 3rd downs and in 4th quarters. Plus he sucked it up and played very well in his first year starting, DESPITE the fact he lost 35 pounds and all his strength during the season and must've been kinda scared.



I think the truth is: Jay is VERY MUCH a team player. In fact, guys around here accuse him of fixating too much on draft classmates Scheffler and Marshall. But that's loyalty, it really is. It's a tightness with teammates. We know Chris Wiliams and Earl Bennett and ALL his Vandy teammates love him (you gotta figure the Bears and Angelo - admittedly skittish about Jay's attitude - went straight to these two young Bears to ask them about Jay, ya figure? ;D) Had Williams or Bennett raised any red lag, the already skittish Angelo prolly wouldda passed I think.


AND REMEMBER THIS NUGGET: Jay was all set to come out for the NFL draft as a junior in 2005, but a beloved Vandy teammate was killed in Florida a couple days before the announce date. He cancelled the announcement and came back for his senior year. That's a teammate right there.

Jay is a rock, and I think he will be the best quarterback in the league. 3rd downs and 4th quarters. That's my prediction, and that's what I think.



(Oh, and I don't think Bus Cook had anything to do with any of this. Like Favre, he probably can't figure out this childish superstar ... Favre said as much after the MNF Packers OT win at Invesco, he said, "i don't get a good read on him." or something to that effect. And Bus gave an interview in the middle of this where he said Jay asked him about trade rumore, and Bus was surprised cause he hadn't heard anything.)

baja
04-07-2009, 12:33 AM
Well I agree with most of your post

And after reading your last line, "Jay is a rock, and I think he will be the best quarterback in the league. 3rd downs and 4th quarters. That's my prediction, and that's what I think."
I get your anguish. I'd be a lying sack o shiit if I said that didn't break my heart too but where we differ is I think McD will be a fine coach in fact I think he's gonna be a great one. he will be to the QB position what Turner is to the RB position. IMO he saw he had more value in the QB position than he needed and was not too sad to be forced to down grade the position and take the picks to rebuild the D. I think he's gonna do it too but l, like you, will miss all the pretty passes...

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:37 AM
And after reading your last line I get your anguish. I'd be a lying sack o shiit if I said that didn't break my heart too but where we differ is I think McD will be a fine coach in fact I think he's gonna be a great one. he will be to the QB position what Turner is to the RB position. IMO he saw more value in the QB position than he needed and was not too sad to down grade the position and take the picks to rebuild the D. I think he's gonna do it too but l like you I will miss all the pretty passes...

McD could be a great coach ... he's a pretty great OC. And at least I like Orton ... thank heavens it's not Brady Quinn.


And thanks pal, for understanding my anguish. This really does hurt ... the pain is real. It feels like one of those 80s Super Bowl losses, it really does ... :(

baja
04-07-2009, 12:40 AM
McD could be a great coach ... he's a pretty great OC. And at least I like Orton ... thank heavens it's not Brady Quinn.


And thanks pal, for understanding my anguish. This really does hurt ... the pain is real. It feels like one of those 80s Super Bowl losses, it really does ... :(

I hear ya my friend but I honestly believe we will win more games without Cutler even if they are less exciting to watch and for that I too am saddened.

baja
04-07-2009, 12:46 AM
BTW Buff do you understand why Bus not asking Chicago for a new deal was his only possible move and it proves absolutely nothing in regards to fishing for a new deal with the Broncos. In fact I don't see how it (looking for a new deal) could be any other way.

summerdenver
04-07-2009, 12:51 AM
I dont think Jay was jilted because Josh didnt want him as his QB. I think Jay was annoyed initially at Shanahans firing. He probably rubbed Bowlen the wrong way but also Bowlen probably made assurances to Jay just like he made a lot of assurances to everyone infront of everyone. And then Bowlen went and hired McDaniels, who he disliked and from there it kept getting worse. Bates was let go, the Goodmans were let go, and who knows what other promises Pat broke. McDaniels probably tried to use this subjugation ploy which intensified his distrust of a new regime that Cutler had reservations about all along. And then finally you have McDaniels trying to trade Cutler after he said that Jay was one of the reasons McDaniels wanted the job.

I think Josh wanted Jay to buy in absolutely and completely and was not willing to jump in feet first for this guy.

And whenever mistakes were made, Pat and Josh expected Jay to bite the bullet and be the better man.

I dont agree with everything Cutler did but I dont blame him for doing what he felt like he had to do to get out of town. I think the whole "I coach, you player" act from McDaniels was probably too heavy handed. And Jay wasnt buying what he was selling. He probably tried to look past his misgivings for a while but the posturing after the trade thing was probably the last straw. When someone lies to you when you know better, thats an insult and it seemed like the Broncos just tried to talk at Jay when telling him their explanation.


That may have been his first reaction. Does this guy sound like he wants out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84QNxwyWzE

Basically since the news broke out, Broncos did nothing to support Jay while he was being roasted in the media. Imagine if Josh cameout on the first day and did a Brady circa 2005 told Trent Dilfer to STFU, Jay is our guy we will deal with it internally and you are an outsider so f#$% off, or if Broncos issued a statement when Scott Hastings went out of line and dis respected their QB (he stiill was their Qb at that time right?) saying they don't agree with it. Instead they leak out that Jay is not returning the calls. I mean put your self in Jay's shoes. You are sitting in Ten when Bus is telling him that there is lot of demand for him and while he is flamed in the media, Broncos do not issue a single suporting statement zip zilch nada.

I have a Bears friend and he tells me if some one pulled the same stunt on Rex Grossman (yep Sexy Rex), their team and fans would have supported him against the radio host. Instead a Bronco fan opened a facebook page titled "Jay Cutler is a Whiny Bitch" and Broncos sent tout immortal canton bound Jabar Gaffney to take shots at Jay.

Have you ever heard Oren and Dmac show on 104.3? They were ridiculing Jays parents for his upbringing come on guys. I mean there is limit to anything right?

What did Jay do that, in 3 months he went from a promising young player to devil incarnate without throwing a single interception or getting into any DUI or someother kind of trouble.

If I am in Jays shoes I would do the same thing.

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:54 AM
BTW Buff do you understand why Bus not asking Chicago for a new deal was his only possible move and it proves absolutely nothing in regards to fishing for a new deal with the Broncos. In fact I don't see how it (looking for a new deal) could be any other way.

That's a different theory than the one I was respoding to ... but why?

I heard Eli and Rivers are playing chicken, neither one wants to sign first, they both want the other to sign so they can one-up. Is Jay in that mix now?

anon
04-07-2009, 12:57 AM
I've been a proponent of the new contract theory, though sometimes I'm not so sure Cutler knew exactly what he wanted out of this whole thing except to express some dissatisfaction with all the franchise changes and to his own perceived mistreatment.

It's been pretty obvious to me in some of his recent interviews that Jay looked a little bewildered, unsure, even sheepish. It's also interesting that Cutler and Cook have offered up no concrete facts about what they think went on, considering all the accusations they've thrown around. They have everything to gain in playing the PR game as well, by explaining why Cutler's child-like behavior was some sort of misinterpretation by his detractors.

One thing that is certain: to demand a new contract now would immediately alienate Cutler from his new community and teammates. In order to "demand" something you have to have leverage. Cutler/Cook now have none. What are they going to do? Threaten a hold out? After all the Bears gave up in trade just to acquire his rights? After Urlacher expressed some surprise and said that "They gave up a lot" when first told that Cutler had been acquired? No way.

baja
04-07-2009, 01:03 AM
That's a different theory than the one I was responding to ... but why?

I heard Eli and Rivers are playing chicken, neither one wants to sign first, they both want the other to sign so they can one-up. Is Jay in that mix now?

It is the same theory I have been posting for some time now and it was one of those posts that you jumped on the idea and ridiculed it.

The reason Bus could not ask for a new deal in Chicago is because the sit out was not about money it was about pride so their story went so when Bowlen pulled the pin on the trade there is no way Bus can say out of the blue,"Traded to Chicago huh well we are gonna need more money for that. " Can you imagine the PR nightmare??

They have to wait until next season.

summerdenver
04-07-2009, 01:05 AM
I've been a proponent of the new contract theory, though sometimes I'm not so sure Cutler knew exactly what he wanted out of this whole thing except to express some dissatisfaction with all the franchise changes and to his own perceived mistreatment.

It's been pretty obvious to me in some of his recent interviews that Jay looked a little bewildered, unsure, even sheepish. It's also interesting that Cutler and Cook have offered up no concrete facts about what they think went on, considering all the accusations they've thrown around. They have everything to gain in playing the PR game as well, by explaining why Cutler's child-like behavior was some sort of misinterpretation by his detractors.

One thing that is certain: to demand a new contract now would immediately alienate Cutler from his new community and teammates. In order to "demand" something you have to have leverage. Cutler/Cook now have none. What are they going to do? Threaten a hold out? After all the Bears gave up in trade just to acquire his rights? After Urlacher expressed some surprise and said that "They gave up a lot" when first told that Cutler had been acquired? No way.


I don't know who to believe in this any more. FWIW, Klis had been getting out Broncos pov for the most part and this is waht he wrote the other day.



His holdout was not driven by greed. Despite speculation, and the presence of his agent Bus Cook throughout this saga, Cutler not once mentioned a new contract. Not even by text. The trade to Chicago was executed quickly, in no small part because there was no interference of financial negotiation.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12074503

19Morton77
04-07-2009, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I never bought that ... I remember thinking Jay must've heard Josh telling him some reasons why he MIGHT have wanted Cassel, and he expanded that further. Jay is a real child, a real baby. I just wish Josh would've cleaned it up right away.





Maybe he has, but unlike this self-serving Josh interview, Jay hasn't been re-hashing. He made those very strange statements that he was "surprised," and that the trade was "not his doing" (which was pure bullcrap of course, he freaking asked for the trade), but other than that, Jay hasn't done this kind of after-the-fact CYA stuff. He doesn't have to of course - he's in Chicago now. But Josh is still here, still picking up the pieces, so this CYA statement is understandable.


OH BY THE WAY: All you Josh-apologists who loudly proclaimed the reason for this entire thing was Jay and Bus wanted a new contract? Deangelo and Bus said they won't talk until after this season is over. So, wipe that egg-foo-yung off yer face, and pop some crow in the micrwave oven .... yummy.

I think Josh needs to speak out since many here, like yourself, are pissed off at him and he needs to clear things up. Jay already "screwed up" or got what he wanted. He doesnt say anything because he lied about not wanting to be traded and cant back track now. As for the contract extension to wait after the season is a complete and different scenario since he hasnt made one snap with the new team. He already had a following in Denver and wanted to use that against the franchise and extend and pay up on a contract. Not too hard to figure out.
McDaniels could have talked to Jay and Bus about the supposed talks after word got out that they tried to trade him. I doubt he called him up once the deal was off (or never on) if no word of it was leaked. It just was stated it was "after".

baja
04-07-2009, 01:07 AM
The sad part is the clown Bus talked his client out of the best situation he could possibly have ever had, a complete & talented offense and a likely great O minded HC to work with.


What could have been is what is killing all of us...

anon
04-07-2009, 01:34 AM
Klis is only speculating on what he thinks may have been Cutler/Cook's motivations, just like we all are... how does he know what the true motivations are?

Klis assumes that Cutler or Cook had leverage to strongly influence Denver's trade. But Cutler was under contract, the Broncos owned his rights and could trade them to anybody. Cutler/Cook could have threatened holdout unless a trade came with a new deal, but that would been a total PR nightmare and would have made Bowlen mad enough to ban Jay from Dove Valley and just let him rot under contract for a few years, more or less wrecking his NFL career.



I don't know who to believe in this any more. FWIW, Klis had been getting out Broncos pov for the most part and this is waht he wrote the other day.




http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12074503

Pseudofool
04-07-2009, 01:46 AM
What is the saying..? "Everyone is replaceable, as long as you have someone to replace him." McDaniels blew it. He tried for Cassel and ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. Most of the immaturity came after the fact (if at all).If we accept the trade was never close; when do we get to the point that Cutler's immaturity is a real problem? Obviously we've breached that point.

Hulamau
04-07-2009, 02:00 AM
Since you asked, I'll tell you what I really think, but you're gonna be surprised: I think Jay Cutler is a grossly self-centered egotist who went over-the-top stubborn in staying away. He is a MAJOR league ass-crack, a couple guys on this board I trust have dealt with him at fan days, and the horror stories about his behavior are ghastly. I believe them, I think Jay is a total d!ck.


Here's what happened: An inexperienced Josh talked with several teams about Cassel, talks almost certainly initiated elsewhere, by the Bucs/Vikes/Lions, guys who knew he loved Cassel. And Josh probably wanted him. But I don't think the talks advanced very far. I think Josh is a brash, hard-charging kid, and was evasive/dishonest with Jay - thinking Jay would not find out the true extent of the talks. But Josh had never dealt with any trades or agents before, so he was surprised that Jay knew as much as he did. Josh probably got defensive, and dug in his heels a bit ... he didn't have to do that, he hadn't done anything wrong ... but as a coach's son who's used to the authoritative relationships between small college players and coaches, and the similar Patriot approach, he felt he didn't owe this b****y emo star an explanation. And in the Saturday meeting, Josh refused to give him one.

So Jay and his itsy-bisty emo-ego felt shoved in a corner, which ticked him off even more, so he tantrumed his way out of town ... BUT HE LEFT THE DOOR CRACKED when he said "I'll show up for mandatory days." Maybe he thought he would bleed them, make them feel bad.

He was SO SURPRISED when the trade was announced, he sounded shocked! He said, "I didn't think they would trade me so soon." That tells me Jay was planning some drama, some last-minute showup, thinking he would avert a trade. He made such ridiculous statements, "this trade was not my doing." That statement is such RANK stupidity, such a pathetic denial of reality ... but it shows he was surprised. And that says to me he was planning something to maybe avert a trade. Probably something immature, but something anyway. Remember, he said he'd be back for mandatory days ... he thought he'd have time then before a trade happened.

Maybe Jay will get married or something and mature someday, but even as a d!ckhead egotistical emo, I am really depressed we've lost him. He was NAILS on 3rd downs and in 4th quarters, and he played very well in his first year starting, DESPITE the fact he lost 35 pounds and must've been kinda scared.

And I think the truth is Jay is VERY MUCH a team player. In fact, guys here accuse him of fixating on draft classmates Scheffler and Marshall too much. That's loyalty, it really is. It;s a tightness with teammates. We know Chris Wiliams and Earl Bennett and ALL his Vandy teammates love him (you gotta figure the Bears and Angelo - admittedly skittish about Jay's attitude - went straight to these two young Bears to ask them about Jay, ya figure? ;D)


AND REMEMBER THIS NUGGET: Jay was all set to come out for the NFL draft as a junior in 2005, but a beloved Vandy teammate was killed in Florida a couple days before the announce date. He cancelled the announcement and came back for his senior year.

Jay is a rock, and I think he will be the best quarterback in the league. 3rd downs and 4th quarters. That's my prediction, and that's what I think.

That's a fair enough assessment Bronco Buff, its basically what happened. No one is saying Jay is the anti-christ and sure he may well become the best QB in the league. he certainly has the kind of talent.

But he IS also a spoiled petulant d!ckhead as you mentioned and may well have some ingrained personality disorder issues with the odd behaviors that continually get reported. I don't think hes a major flame out by any means and its possible this whole episode serves as a real come to Jesus wake up call for him. For his sake I hope so!

But we cant live in 'what ifs' and 'potentials' only and decisions have to be made in the here and now as well. There is also a great potential for him to do some version of the Jeff George routine as well, win a lot of games make a lot of dazzling plays etc. but never have that core quality of inspiring his teammates to really put out for him in the clutch that so often makes the difference when the going gets tough

We Bronco fans are spoiled maybe, but we've known what a guy with both a pure talent AND the 'Right Stuff' looks like and for as tantalizingly close as Jay came to filling the bill, he's now raised some serious red flags if he'll ever match up on that last critical ingredient ... the 'Right Stuff'!

fontaine
04-07-2009, 06:01 AM
It doesn't matter now.

Jay is out of Denver and McDaniels is here.

Anyone who completely believes McDaniels version of events and thinks Jay somehow wanted out of Denver desperately where he's got the best young offense, and the best chance to put up great numbers really needs to buy this bridge I'm selling.

In the same way Jay and his agent made a powerplay here and lost, badly all while manipulating the media image. They could mess around a rookie HC in McDaniels but you don't mess with the owner.

That's why I said at the start of all of this that Pat should stay out of it completely because there's nothing to gain from the owner taking sides.

Jay Cutler is history as far as I'm concerned.

Step on down Kyle Orton, Josh McDaniels. And if you can't get the job done and show real improvement in the next two years, then you two too, can **** off like Jay.

If, we as fans, can survive 8 years of Grieseball, and Plummet then Orton should be a piece of cake!!!!

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 06:59 AM
No no ... you have attacked people - a couple posts before the one I quoted here, you called us "thick" if we disagreed with the completely discredited theory this was all a Bus Cook ploy about money/new contract. Nobody on any side of this has EVER mentioned a new contract ... in fact, Bus and the Bears agreed to wait til next year.




I'm sorry Roh, but I gotta beat you down here. Everything you said there is wrong. In fact, Josh is a "completely inexperienced kid." Like it or not, those are FACTS, not an attack:
He has never negotiated a trade before the Cassel thing = FACT
He has never dealt officially with an agent before = FACT
He's never been a head coach on any level before = FACT
He IS a kid = FACT (he's the 2nd youngest head coach in LEAGUE HISTORY fer crissake Roh, by just a couple months! HE'S A KID!)

Roh, you're not using logic, you're using emotion. If you were "logical," you would respond something along the lines of "yes, he is inexperienced and he is just a kid, but..." Instead, you attack me by calling my statement of these two simple facts "an attack."

Sad.

Judging by the over-use of the bold feature and all the punctuation, it's not me losing emotional control over this whole deal. Like I said, the only reason I'm still talking about this is because it's the subject still dominating the board. When it goes away, I'm happy. You are simply ignoring arguments you don't like. Angelo just stated he was very impressed with the way McD handled these negotiations. Another writer mentioned that McD didn't change his schedule of meeting with draftees to take Angelo's phone calls. That sounds like a pretty cool poker player to me. Couple this with McD's behavior at the owner's meeting (holding up the Cutler shirt - which now makes him appear foolish) and Jay's conflicting statements and it all adds up to something other than your interpretation. Your story does not fit the facts.

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:16 PM
Judging by the over-use of the bold feature and all the punctuation, it's not me losing emotional control over this whole deal.
Actually I didn't use bold, but point somewhat taken. I was factually correct though ( I notice you avoided asmitting that, there's a shocker). I was not merely "attacking emotionally," as you accused me, when I said he's an "inexperienced kid." The words might sound dismissive, but they are facts. And they are accurate.


Angelo just stated he was very impressed with the way McD handled these negotiations. Another writer mentioned that McD didn't change his schedule of meeting with draftees to take Angelo's phone calls. That sounds like a pretty cool poker player to me.

This quote is another reason why I'm skeptical you're the real Rohirrim. The real Roh would say, "Who gives a flying rip whether Angleo thinks he's cool under pressure?"

And who gives a flying rip wherther Angelo likes him? In the first place, OF COURSE Angelo said nice things! In the second place, you cherry-picked the parts of the story you like ... Angelo ALSO said the Broncos curiously stopped communicating altogether for lengthy chunks of time. They didn't answer calls, messages or texts for so long, he was ready to pull his offer. Read it again.

And that's just inexperience on Josh's part, which is okay, he's never done a trade before, or dealt officially with GMs before. But he almost lost the deal cause he wouldn't return a simple phone call? Communication is indispensible in any business or industry. It takes 30 damn seconds, Roh: "Mr. Angelo, hold tight here, we're almost ready to decide, we'll get back with you this afternoon." Done.

But he was too busy "keeping his schedule" to communicate I guess. Walk and chew gum at the same time.

And I must say again, when I'm right I'm right: I was shouted down for saying Josh has all or very nearly all of Shanahan's power, and that he made "power statements" affirming that he was completely in charge, and that Colonel Xanders is a Ted Sundquist at best. Now we see Angelo dealt entirely with Josh (instead of his GM counterpart), and we have Bowlen's letter stating Josh is the man - much as Shanahan was - and that his promise of a power-sharing structure after firing Shanahan was a broken promise. I was right about that stuff all along.

So now we have a new Mike Shanahan, and a new Ted Sundquist. You'd think Bowlen would've learned from Mike's administration that concentrating too much power in one man can become unworkable.



Couple this with McD's behavior at the owner's meeting (holding up the Cutler shirt - which now makes him appear foolish) and Jay's conflicting statements and it all adds up to something other than your interpretation.
You cannot be serious ....what's he supposed to do, refuse to hold up the jersey? Roh, that is the silliest thing I have ever seen you post ... are you being sarcastic? Satirical? The jersey thing is utterly irrelevant, it means less than nothing. :nono:

Jay's weird statements after the trade, yes, they are yet more proof that he had no appreciation for what was really going on, and no appreciation of the gravity and reality of the consequences of his tantrum and what a trade would be.

RaiderH8r
04-07-2009, 12:21 PM
No kidding ... that didn't occur to him? Hula, you think this is "proof" of something? Cutler is gone ... anybody in their right mind is going to put themselves in the best light possible.

Plus, that account has a screwy timeline. He says the team called Jay and Bus first .... that the TEAM informed THEM. But I thought Jay found out about it elsewhere - remember Jay said "numerous sources" told him? - and that was the basis of this entire problem. That Josh did not communicate with Jay / admit to Jay that trade discussions happened.

Plus now those new and deeply detailed Vikings stories added to all this seem to bolster the idea there was a lot more here than just smoke. For me, I believe Josh actively tried to trade Jay, and then - because Josh had never traded anybody or dealt with agents before - thought he could get away with lying and/or misleading Jay about what happened. That to me is the likeliest scenario based on everything we know.


But it's over now, none of this matters any more.

To sum up McKid's story...

Step 1-Answer the phone
Step 2- ?
Step 3-Sh@t the bed and send a franchise QB out of town.

See? It makes perfect sense that way.

Inkana7
04-07-2009, 12:25 PM
I think it should be a bit embarassing for you to have said this ... when just three posts above yours, I said the following: "I personally think Jay is more at fault here." And I've said it elsewhere, too.

Time for an "oh, I guess I was wrong there," or maybe, "okay, sorry I missed that."

Please, this one is too obvious.

My point stands. "Oh, Josh is inexperienced, so most of the blame must be put at his feet."

Dumb.

RaiderH8r
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
My point stands. "Oh, Josh is inexperienced, so most of the blame must be put at his feet."

Dumb.

Josh is inexperienced and the blame does land on him. He's the man with the big office now and if he's not up to the task then his responsibilities need to be, at the very least, pared back or taken away entirely in favor of someone who does have the experience to deal with personnel and agents. And that's pretty much the long and short of it. Josh's inexperience either inadvertantly cost the Broncos their franchise QB or he purposefully ran Cutler out of town and has been full of shT all along. Either way, Josh's front office foray has been a boatload of fail...and he hasn't even hit the draft yet.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 12:33 PM
Actually I didn't use bold, but point somewhat taken. I was factually correct though ( I notice you avoided asmitting that, there's a shocker). I was not merely "attacking emotionally," as you accused me, when I said he's an "inexperienced kid." The words might sound dismissive, but they are facts. And they are accurate.




This quote is another reason why I'm skeptical you're the real Rohirrim. The real Roh would say, "Who gives a flying rip whether Angleo thinks he's cool under pressure?"

And who gives a flying rip wherther Angelo likes him? In the first place, OF COURSE Angelo said nice things! In the second place, you cherry-picked the parts of the story you like ... Angelo ALSO said the Broncos curiously stopped communicating altogether for lengthy chunks of time. They didn't answer calls, messages or texts for so long, he was ready to pull his offer. Read it again.

And that's just inexperience on Josh's part, which is okay, he's never done a trade before, or dealt officially with GMs before. But he almost lost the deal cause he wouldn't return a simple phone call? Communication is indispensible in any business or industry. It takes 30 damn seconds, Roh: "Mr. Angelo, hold tight here, we're almost ready to decide, we'll get back with you this afternoon." Done.

But he was too busy "keeping his schedule" to communicate I guess. Walk and chew gum at the same time.

And I must say again, when I'm right I'm right: I was shouted down for saying Josh has all or very nearly all of Shanahan's power, and that he made "power statements" affirming that he was completely in charge, and that Colonel Xanders is a Ted Sundquist at best. Now we see Angelo dealt entirely with Josh (instead of his GM counterpart), and we have Bowlen's letter stating Josh is the man - much as Shanahan was - and that his promise of a power-sharing structure after firing Shanahan was a broken promise. I was right about that stuff all along.

So now we have a new Mike Shanahan, and a new Ted Sundquist. You'd think Bowlen would've learned from Mike's administration that concentrating too much power in one man can become unworkable.




You cannot be serious ....what's he supposed to do, refuse to hold up the jersey? Roh, that is the silliest thing I have ever seen you post ... are you being sarcastic? Satirical? The jersey thing is utterly irrelevant, it means less than nothing. :nono:

Jay's weird statements after the trade, yes, they are yet more proof that he had no appreciation for what was really going on, and no appreciation of the gravity and reality of the consequences of his tantrum and what a trade would be.

Now I see what your lawyerly strategy is; Just keep posting these massive posts until I surrender. OKAY! I give up. You're right about everything. I CONFESS! I did it in the library with the candlestick! Just stop whacking me with these giant posts! Man, they should send you down to Guatanamo.

BroncoBuff
04-07-2009, 12:35 PM
To sum up McKid's story...

Step 1-Answer the phone
Step 2- ?
Step 3-Sh@t the bed and send a franchise QB out of town.

See? It makes perfect sense that way.

I'm not precisely certain where you're coming from here ... but I sense you disapprove of my post ;D

So lemme give you my nutshell : 1) Jay is MOSTLY at fault for this fiasco, 2) But Josh's inexperience was a contributor, too

I also don't believe Josh really wanted to get rid of Jay. He was excited for a minute about getting Cassel, and he listened and negotiated, but never would have done it. He's inexperienced, but he's way too smart to walk into his first job and trade away the star QB. No way he was serious about it.

RaiderH8r
04-07-2009, 12:40 PM
I'm not precisely certain where you're coming from here ... but I sense you disapprove of my post ;D

So lemme give you my nutshell : 1) Jay is MOSTLY at fault for this fiasco, 2) But Josh's inexperience was a contributor, too

I also don't believe Josh really wanted to get rid of Jay. He was excited for a minute about getting Cassel, and he listened and negotiated, but never would have done it. He's inexperienced, but he's way too smart to walk into his first job and trade away the star QB. No way he was serious about it.

No, I sincerely believe that to be the short version of McKid's story...that there's this big question mark of ineptitude, stupidity, and failure of personnel management in between answering the phone and crapping the bed.

I don't disagree with your take, it goes to my point that McKid is in way over his head here and there's no father figure to take away the keys to the personnel side of the business right now. Col. Xanders can best be described as the chronic lump attached to McKid's ass.

I think McKid is mostly at fault because if, as he said, he only took a call then he is a glorious failure of a people manager to let the situation devolve this badly. McKid has the big office and has to be the grown up. An owner and a coach acting surprised that a star player in the NFL has an ego is just an insult to my intelligence. "Ooooh who knew he'd get butthurt. Ooooh, I can't believe the ego." R-tarded on their part.

lex
04-07-2009, 12:46 PM
I'm not precisely certain where you're coming from here ... but I sense you disapprove of my post ;D

So lemme give you my nutshell : 1) Jay is MOSTLY at fault for this fiasco, 2) But Josh's inexperience was a contributor, too

I also don't believe Josh really wanted to get rid of Jay. He was excited for a minute about getting Cassel, and he listened and negotiated, but never would have done it. He's inexperienced, but he's way too smart to walk into his first job and trade away the star QB. No way he was serious about it.

A minute? He said it started a day or two before FA started, which was that Friday was it not? The fiasco all went down on Saturday. So youre talking a span of time ranging from Wed/Thurs to Saturday.