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View Full Version : should the Dolphins have traded Marino in 1986?


mwill07
04-06-2009, 12:37 PM
hypothetical question - this is a tough one and poorly thought out, so bear with me...

given the advantage of hindsight, should the Dolphins have traded Marino in 1986?

At that point, Marino led the league in pretty much everything, but his team was 8-8. No doubt they could have gotten a kings ransom for him. Marino went on to have a long career, but Miami managed to get past the division round of the playoffs only once since then. If winning playoff games is the mark of success, the Dolphins w/ Marino would have to be considered a failure.

Revisionist history of course, but did the Dolphins focus so much on getting weapons for Marino that they sacrificed the D, and eventually team success? Looking at things, the Dolphins only had a top-14 D (above average) 3x in the decade following 1986.

Would dolphin fans consider giving up Marino during the late 80's/early 90's if it meant playoff success?

OABB
04-06-2009, 12:48 PM
yes.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 12:52 PM
It's wasn't because of Dan Marino and his greatness that the Dolphins were unable to put together a championship team. It was because of the front office's failure to put a competent running game on the field that Marino has no rings. You are putting forth the notion that the Dolphins could have been better without Marino, which is absurd. All you need to do is look at Elway to prove that wrong. Football is a team sport, and the more excellent players you have, the better chance you have at winning. a good Qb does a lot to cover up deficiencies, but a team effort is necessary to get ove the hump.

DomCasual
04-06-2009, 12:53 PM
hypothetical question - this is a tough one and poorly thought out, so bear with me...

If you told me a guy with 48 posts was going to start a thread saying his hypothesis was "poorly thought out" - I would have given you pretty good odds the thread would be a train wreck.

But this is a pretty interesting concept.

Good job.

OABB
04-06-2009, 12:57 PM
If you told me a guy with 48 posts was going to start a thread saying his hypothesis was "poorly thought out" - I would have given you pretty good odds the thread would be a train wreck.

But this is a pretty interesting concept.

Good job.

OT, but why do people equate good posts with the amount of posts?

The worst takes on this thread lately are actually by some of the most prolific posters here...that is all. back to the thread.

WolfpackGuy
04-06-2009, 12:57 PM
Tough call.
Marino had the unlucky fate of being in the same division as the Bills when they began their rise.
Look at some of the Bills who arrived in the last half of the 80's.
Kelly, Smith, Thomas, Bennett, Reed, and many more above average players.

summerdenver
04-06-2009, 01:01 PM
They should have kept Marino and built the team around him. Even then, its not a guarantee that they would have won SB even with that - it is not the best team in a year that wins the SB - teams need luck with injuries and some breaks go their way to win a SB.

I would not mind following their model of building around the Qb with the current rules though. They are in favor of pass game these days and actually Indi is following this model isn't it?

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 01:11 PM
No. Marino had already made a super bowl.

mwill07
04-06-2009, 01:19 PM
They should have kept Marino and built the team around him. Even then, its not a guarantee that they would have won SB even with that - it is not the best team in a year that wins the SB - teams need luck with injuries and some breaks go their way to win a SB.

I would not mind following their model of building around the Qb with the current rules though. They are in favor of pass game these days and actually Indi is following this model isn't it?

well, that's what they did, isn't it? They never got very far following that path.

It strikes me that there are (at least) three types of "franchise QBs". There's guys who put up prolific numbers but (almost) never win anything: Marino, Fouts, Moon, Bledsloe, Ken Anderson, etc. There are guys who are great "managers" and win tons of games because their team is great and they are good enough not to mess it up: Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw, Unitas, Kelly. the third type are gunslingers - guys who can win big or loose big - people who can win games their teams have no business being in: Elway, Favre, (not sure who else to put here).

It seems that prolific passing numbers don't always equate to post-season success, and Marino is the poster child for that. I wonder if having a QB like that prevents a team from getting better at other positions.

Or more directly, is Cutler on a similar career path to Marino, and if so, isn't it better for the team to go in a different direction?

WolfpackGuy
04-06-2009, 01:46 PM
You need balance between running and passing or the more recent model of an overpowering defense to win the big one.

BroncoLifer
04-06-2009, 02:16 PM
OT, but why do people equate good posts with the amount of posts?



Only some people do that. Typically, they are the lazy or those who lack the talent for critical thinking.

So says the guy with not many posts. :thanku:

Hotrod
04-06-2009, 02:31 PM
Marino > Jay period

Hotrod
04-06-2009, 02:32 PM
OT, but why do people equate good posts with the amount of posts?



I think I'm a perfect example of why people do that :)

Beantown Bronco
04-06-2009, 02:38 PM
given the advantage of hindsight, should the Dolphins have traded Marino in 1986?

Yes. If they could've gotten a Ricky Williams or Herschel Walker-type draft pick package in return, then they definitely would've.

Why you ask?

Miami managed to get past the division round of the playoffs only once since then. If winning playoff games is the mark of success, the Dolphins w/ Marino would have to be considered a failure.

That says it all. If you know that the way you did things resulted in that kind of a record, and you are given the opportunity to travel back in time and either stick with it or change it, you change it. No questions asked.

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 02:50 PM
All things like Marino not winning a Superbowl just go further to illustrate that you never know what will happen. Some of the best QBs never won a Superbowl. Marino, Kelly, Fouts, and a bunch of other good ones that never did.

Then you have avg ones that did win a lot of playoff games and superbowls.

I think that there was no reason for Vikings to not make this move. It's worth the risk. For the Broncos there was no reason to keep a QB that didn't want to be here. So IMO it's hard to use history of other players to try and figure out what will happen to Cutler.

It could be a Steve Young thing were every Sunday we get reminded how foolish it was to piss off Cutler. Ot it could be a situation where he doesn't win, and we get to say how great is was we traded him.

Chances are it will be somewhere in the middle of that. Some good yrs, some bad yrs, but let's be honest, only a great team can win a Superbowl. For that you need other great players, some luck, some breaks, and for the QB to play well.

In that regard IMO Broncos have just as good a chance to hit on draft picks, get a great team, and go to Superbowl.

It's pretty obvious you need great play from QB to get to and win a Superbowl, but what makes great play from that position is very much entwined with the team and how good it is.

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 02:51 PM
Also people saying all Marino needed was a running game haven't read much about Marino. He hated to hand ball off and considered it a wasted down. He wanted to throw, that was Marinos will that made dolphins a passing team.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 02:55 PM
Also people saying all Marino needed was a running game haven't read much about Marino. He hated to hand ball off and considered it a wasted down. He wanted to throw, that was Marinos will that made dolphins a passing team.

this means zero. What Marino wants and what would have helped him win a Super Bowl don't have to be the same thing.

worm
04-06-2009, 03:30 PM
Anybody who thinks that Marino just needed a running game in 1986 doesn't remember accurately. The Dolphins gave up two 50+ points in the first 3 weeks of the season. They were Broncos circa 2008 bad.

Regardless...for the sake of this hypothetical. Lets say the Dolphins trade Marino for two 1st round picks in the 1987 draft. (More than what the Broncos got for Cutler point value-wise).

Here were the 1st round selections that year:

Vinny Testaverde Quarterback
Cornelius Bennett Outside Linebacker
Alonzo Highsmith Running Back
Brent Fullwood Running Back
Mike Junkin Inside Linebacker
Kelly Stouffer Quarterback
Reggie Rogers Defensive Tackle
Shane Conlan Middle Linebacker
Jerome Brown Defensive Tackle
Rod Woodson Cornerback
Shawn Knight Nose Tackle
Danny Noonan Defensive Tackle
Chris Miller Quarterback
D.J. Dozier Running Back
John Clay Offensive Tackle
John Bosa Defensive End (Dolphins pick)
Jason Buck Defensive End
Tony Woods Defensive End
Paul Palmer Running Back
Haywood Jeffires Wide Receiver
Roger Vick Fullback
Harris Barton Offensive Tackle
Bruce Armstrong Offensive Tackle
Rod Bernstine Running Back
Terrence Flagler Running Back
Jim Harbaugh Quarterback
Ricky Nattiel Wide Receiver
Mark Ingram Wide Receiver
Brian Bosworth Linebacker (supplemental pick)


What two players are you replacing a HOF QB with? Pick any two. Do you think the Dolphins would have been a better team?

Look at those RBs! How about those replacement QBs! Would even a Rod Woodson\Shane Conlan combo and some journeyman QB off the wire make you that much better on the field? (it certainly wouldn't make you better in jersey sales or providing a 'face' for the franchise).

No. That would have gone down as a stupid trade no matter what two players you were to pick even in hindsight. It will be even harder for the Broncos to find the needle in a haystack.

Not only do the Broncos not have hindsight to look at...the guy with his finger on the trigger for these draft picks has never been the leader in a War Room before....he has been a head coach for less than 3 months....he has been busy launching his team, selecting coaches, firing part of the previous regime's War Room leaders, rearranging furniture, dealing with the Cutler fall-out, signing FAs et al....

He is playing all the hard ways on the crap table and that strategy doesn't win a whole hell of a lot in Vegas.

Circle Orange
04-06-2009, 04:28 PM
A couple of things regarding Marino, especially late in his career.

His greatest strengths were his faults. It was said he wasn't overly willing to compromise (to get a rounded team) around him. Well, you pay the devil. Do you want numbers, or titles? His career yardage total already tells you something was out of whack.

Dan was fabulously talented and utterly amazing. But for all his greatness, his game was one dimensional. Once that dimension faded (pinched nerve, arm strength) he didn't have enough left in the tank to build around. One leg was inches shorter from the achilles injury. The team had to max protect, limiting what the run game and passing game could do. The most painful thing to watch was him during the 62-7 Jacksonville debacle, where he nearly took himself out of the game. Worse was Jacksonville's comments after the game. They were trying to be kind, but you could catch the pity.

8-10 playoff record, I think.

so this means he DID have decent defense at some point. You don't get to that many playoff games just because the qb is great.

Jim Kelly has less excuse. Had the team, the offense. One of the greatest D lineman of all time, still couldn't get it done. At the time the Bills were torched by the media for losing 4 superbowls. Now they're lauded for going on a run. Go figure.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Anybody who thinks that Marino just needed a running game in 1986 doesn't remember accurately. The Dolphins gave up two 50+ points in the first 3 weeks of the season. They were Broncos circa 2008 bad.

Regardless...for the sake of this hypothetical. Lets say the Dolphins trade Marino for two 1st round picks in the 1987 draft. (More than what the Broncos got for Cutler point value-wise).

Here were the 1st round selections that year:

Vinny Testaverde Quarterback
Cornelius Bennett Outside Linebacker
Alonzo Highsmith Running Back
Brent Fullwood Running Back
Mike Junkin Inside Linebacker
Kelly Stouffer Quarterback
Reggie Rogers Defensive Tackle
Shane Conlan Middle Linebacker
Jerome Brown Defensive Tackle
Rod Woodson Cornerback
Shawn Knight Nose Tackle
Danny Noonan Defensive Tackle
Chris Miller Quarterback
D.J. Dozier Running Back
John Clay Offensive Tackle
John Bosa Defensive End (Dolphins pick)
Jason Buck Defensive End
Tony Woods Defensive End
Paul Palmer Running Back
Haywood Jeffires Wide Receiver
Roger Vick Fullback
Harris Barton Offensive Tackle
Bruce Armstrong Offensive Tackle
Rod Bernstine Running Back
Terrence Flagler Running Back
Jim Harbaugh Quarterback
Ricky Nattiel Wide Receiver
Mark Ingram Wide Receiver
Brian Bosworth Linebacker (supplemental pick)


What two players are you replacing a HOF QB with? Pick any two. Do you think the Dolphins would have been a better team?

Look at those RBs! How about those replacement QBs! Would even a Rod Woodson\Shane Conlan combo and some journeyman QB off the wire make you that much better on the field? (it certainly wouldn't make you better in jersey sales or providing a 'face' for the franchise).

No. That would have gone down as a stupid trade no matter what two players you were to pick even in hindsight. It will be even harder for the Broncos to find the needle in a haystack.

Not only do the Broncos not have hindsight to look at...the guy with his finger on the trigger for these draft picks has never been the leader in a War Room before....he has been a head coach for less than 3 months....he has been busy launching his team, selecting coaches, firing part of the previous regime's War Room leaders, rearranging furniture, dealing with the Cutler fall-out, signing FAs et al....

He is playing all the hard ways on the crap table and that strategy doesn't win a whole hell of a lot in Vegas.

yeah, cept Jay Cutler wasn't Dan Marino in 86

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 04:54 PM
Well on that list had you picked Woodson and Jerome Brown for sure your defense would have been a lot better.

Had Brown not tragically died he would be among the greatest DT to ever play. I'm sure of it, he was well on his way. That dude friggin dominated, he pushed the pocket and had a size speed thing that was unreal.

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 04:58 PM
It does show though that first round picks not all they are cracked up to be.

No way Broncos trade a happy Cutler for 2 first round picks, a 3rd and Orton.

Just like Miami would have never traded Marino, but they didn't have to.

For whatever reason Cutler and the new Coach couldnt get a along, then Bowlen got upset and it was over. Be grateful we got as much as we did. At least Broncos have a chance to make something good of it.

Also IMO college players better then ever, scouting way better, they know so much more, I think Broncos have a good shot of getting 3 players with those picks that will be good starters. To hope for some superstar stud may be wishful thinking. You have almost as good a chance of finding those in later rounds.

rastaman
04-06-2009, 05:07 PM
hypothetical question - this is a tough one and poorly thought out, so bear with me...

given the advantage of hindsight, should the Dolphins have traded Marino in 1986?

At that point, Marino led the league in pretty much everything, but his team was 8-8. No doubt they could have gotten a kings ransom for him. Marino went on to have a long career, but Miami managed to get past the division round of the playoffs only once since then. If winning playoff games is the mark of success, the Dolphins w/ Marino would have to be considered a failure.

Revisionist history of course, but did the Dolphins focus so much on getting weapons for Marino that they sacrificed the D, and eventually team success? Looking at things, the Dolphins only had a top-14 D (above average) 3x in the decade following 1986.

Would dolphin fans consider giving up Marino during the late 80's/early 90's if it meant playoff success?

Who would they have replaced Marino with? and What teams could Marino turned in to SB Champs?

Here's a question should the Broncos have traded Elway for Marino back in 1986?? Boy that would have been an interesting trade.

Both Marino and Elway came into the league in 83....compare their stats for 83-36.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm

Inkana7
04-06-2009, 05:21 PM
Marino made the effing playoffs.

gunns
04-06-2009, 05:25 PM
I've heard Marino also wasn't concerned with a running game. So neither were the coaches. Get him some receivers and let's see what he can do. He also wasn't multifaceted like Elway. Marino could throw but that was about it. Little scrambling, no running. The two biggest reasons were the running game and the D. Especially in the 90's. The offense was the focus and the D was left to flounder. Only when Jimmie Johnson came was there a focus on D. In fact I believe they had the #1 D in 98, the year we beat them 38-3 in the playoffs. We were just too damn good!

And hell NO I wouldn't have traded Elway for Marino. It was unbelievable when I found out we got Elway.

OABB
04-06-2009, 05:34 PM
I think I'm a perfect example of why people do that :)

Nope, it's Popps!

azbroncfan
04-06-2009, 06:08 PM
Marino vs Cutler comparison isn't even close. Marino's rookie or 2nd year (can't remember exactly which one and too lazy to look it up), was light years ahead of what Jay has done and not to mention getting Miami to the SB.

DBBBSBS
04-06-2009, 06:20 PM
cu-n-t-ler if possible will get to a superbowl in next 5 yrs. until he gets there... shut this talk.

Dedhed
04-06-2009, 06:31 PM
Marino is a perfect example of what happens when you do what's best for the star instead of what's best for the team.