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Hulamau
04-06-2009, 02:27 AM
Apologies for the long multi-part post but there is a lot of good stuff here. its worth it.

Monday April 6, 2009 3:43AM
Peter King
MONDAY MORNING QB
How Cutler-Orton trade went down

At about 2:30 p.m. Denver time Thursday, the Broncos gave the Chicago Bears the final terms of what they'd accept in trade for disgruntled quarterback Jay Cutler: first- and second-round picks this year, a first-round pick in 2010 and quarterback Kyle Orton.

Whoa! Too steep, thought Chicago GM Jerry Angelo, and he asked for a little time to mull it over and talk about it with his people. The Broncos told Angelo: "You've got a half-hour.''

A few things went though Angelo's mind, including the last time he was part of a staff that traded two No. 1s for a player. "We did Keyshawn Johnson for two ones in Tampa Bay, and we really got burned by it,'' he told me Friday night. "But this is a quarterback. Maybe a really good quarterback.''

We really want this guy, Angelo told those on his staff, but the compensation is too much. So he called the Broncos back and offered two ones, Orton and this year's fourth-round pick. Denver GM Brian Xanders and coach Josh McDaniels mulled it over and came back with this compromise: two first-round picks, Orton, and this year's third-round pick for Cutler and Denver's fifth-round pick this year.

Done, Angelo said. Fair deal.

"It was high-stakes poker,'' Angelo said when it was over. "And I couldn't see anyone else's hand.''

In the end, Angelo rebuilt his battered, way-too-conservative GM image and Chicago got a potentially great long-term quarterback. (No other 4,000-yard passer has ever been traded at 25, or even the season after accumulating such a lofty number.) Denver got a better deal than the Broncos had a right to expect after their dissed owner ordered Cutler dealt, losing whatever leverage the team might have had. And Cutler proved he should write the foreword to Drew Rosenhaus' next book -- the one about how a superstar can shoot himself out of town. Cutler got exactly what he wanted, though talking oneself off the best young offense in football is not my idea of a good career decision by a franchise quarterback.

Aside from the late haggling between the Bears and Broncos over the price, I do know some facts that haven't been out there -- I don't think -- yet. The five things I know for sure, from talking to those in the middle of the Cutler trade discussions in the three days since the deal went down:


1. The key to the trade was Kyle Orton. Laugh if you want, but it's the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington's Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay's Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.

But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton's arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it's crazy he didn't like Campbell -- who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year -- more than he liked Orton, but it's the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.

2. The Bears were sure the deal was collapsing Thursday afternoon, because the Broncos weren't answering phone calls, e-mails or texts. GM Jerry Angelo thought he'd gotten the rug pulled out from underneath him. Angelo hadn't heard from the Broncos for about three hours, and got so nervous by mid-afternoon Chicago time that he sent McDaniels a text message that said, in effect, "We gotta get this done. What's it gonna take for the Bears to win this?''

But the Broncos weren't ignoring Angelo, and they weren't working another team for a better deal. McDaniels told Xanders and the rest of the football people in the building that they weren't stopping business following owner Pat Bowlen's declaration that there was an open market for Cutler. Workouts would continue with McDaniels around; coaches meetings would go on as normal. ( Good move McD!)

And the Broncos had eight players in the building between Tuesday and Friday -- including first-round prospects Brian Orakpo (defensive end, Texas), Knowshon Moreno (running back, Georgia) and Tyson Jackson (defensive end, LSU). McDaniels met with two of the prospects during the middle of the talks for Cutler Thursday, and he ignored the bleating on his cell phone while those meetings were going on.

Now Angelo can know for sure -- the Broncos were going to make the deal with him unless his final offer was a fraction of those from Washington and Tampa Bay. ( Nice poker by the rookie coach!)

3. The Jets were never in it seriously -- true story. New York is either convinced that Brett Ratliff or Kellen Clemens is its guy, or the Jets think the New York spotlight would have been too white-hot for a rabbit-ears guy like Cutler to handle :spit: , or they didn't want to pay two first-round picks for Cutler after giving a third for one season of Brett Favre. I just know that the Jets never made a remotely serious offer for Cutler, much to my surprise.

4. All you Redskins fans who are so sure you were thisclose to getting Cutler? Total BS. Yes, Washington was competitive, and the 'Skins would have done whatever it took to get Cutler. But once McDaniels decided Orton was his man -- even though Washington's first-round pick would have been the 13th overall, five slots ahead of Chicago's -- the contest was over. The 'Skins were out of it, even though Cutler and greater Washington were sure it almost happened.

5. In the end, this trade happened so quickly because, first and foremost, the owner of the Broncos felt dissed. And you do not diss Pat Bowlen. Bowlen is 65. He has owned the team for 25 years. In Bowlen's world, there is a protocol to doing business, and part of that protocol is the players and coaches having respect for the owner, regardless of their personal feelings about anyone else in the organization. Imagine Tom Brady ignoring calls from Bob Kraft. It'd never happen. Imagine Dan Rooney getting snubbed by Ben Roethlisberger, or Peyton Manning ditching Jim Irsay. Never in a million years, regardless of how they felt about what was happening with the team.

In all the years Bowlen has owned the team, he has never felt quite the disrespect from a player or coach that he felt from Cutler ignoring his attempts to speak to him to attempt to bridge the problems between player and team. And you cannot underestimate how significant this was in Bowlen's Tuesday night pronouncement that Cutler was being put up on the trading block.

Continued ........ on page 2 of 3

TDmvp
04-06-2009, 02:28 AM
Turn the page , i want to read what is on page 2 ... hehe

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 02:36 AM
Peter King Peter King >
MONDAY MORNING QB
MMQB (cont.) page 2 of 3


So many tributaries. Such an interesting deal.

First of all, it should have never, ever come to this. Cutler-McDaniels was a match made in heaven -- a smart, tough, accurate passer with a great arm, in the hands of a Belichick protégé with a good offensive mind. Unless Orton becomes what Brady became in 2001, or Matt Cassel became in 2008, McDaniels and Bronco Nation will always wonder what they could have done to save this relationship. And I believe it could have been saved.

McDaniels could have sweet-talked Cutler a little more than he did. As one of the GMs involved in talking to the Broncos told me Saturday: "This should never have happened. This is bad for football. A great player talked his way off a team. If this trade doesn't work out for Denver, and Cutler plays great, which he should, Denver's going to look idiotic.''

Having said that, Cutler owns a degree of culpability that I believe is greater than the team's. As I wrote Thursday night, he has himself to blame for this trade because he couldn't accept that the team fired the two coaches -- Mike Shanahan and Jeremy Bates -- most responsible for the very good offense the Broncos had in 2008 and then couldn't accept that McDaniels wouldn't assure him he'd never be traded.

Should McDaniels have lied about that? Maybe. But the Broncos once tried to trade John Elway to Washington, and Elway had to come back to the team knowing Dan Reeves wanted to deal him. They were never best friends, but Elway didn't go on strike like Cutler did. Cutler was poked and prodded, but spare me the violins about how the Broncos treated him terribly. I don't buy it. He got treated like an employee, which he is.

I don't write this morning to say Denver won the trade. Not at all. I'll never praise trading a 25-year-old quarterback coming off a 4,000-yard season and possessing the best arm in football. And I'll continue to say the Broncos acted precipitously. They should have let this thing simmer for the next two or three weeks, accept no phone calls from any team, and then, the weekend before the draft, if Cutler was still not to be mollified, then deal him. April 22, fine. April 2 ... what's the rush?

For now, I'll declare the two winners to be the Bears and Orton. The only way I'll call Denver a winner in this is if they use eight primo picks -- five picks in the top 2.5 rounds of this draft, and three more in the first two rounds next year -- to rebuild a patchwork defense. That's a tall order for any team because there's usually a 50-percent washout factor with the high picks in any draft. But McDaniels, to show Denver fans and his own locker room that he was the right man for the job, has to make chicken salad with these draft picks out of the chicken-feathers situation that resulted in Cutler getting dealt.

The Bears finally have the quarterback they've longed for. If anyone thinks the Bears paid too much, let me show you the 14 men who have been first-round picks for the Bears in the last 15 drafts: John Thierry, Rashaan Salaam, Walt Harris, Curtis Enis, Cade McNown, Brian Urlacher, David Terrell, Marc Colombo, Michael Haynes, Rex Grossman, Tommie Harris, Cedric Benson, Greg Olsen, Chris Williams. Let's eliminate judging the last two, from 2007 and 2008, because they don't have enough on their resumes yet. Let's look at the other 12.

Stars: 1 (Urlacher).

Very good NFL starters: 1 (Tommie Harris).

NFL starters: 2 (Walt Harris, Marc Colombo).

Had some moments, but ultimately failed: 3 (Grossman, Thierry, Haynes).

Busts: 5 (Salaam, Enis, McNown, Terrell, Benson).

Four of the 12 became consistent NFL starters, or better. An awful, awful track record. That is why Angelo, a career scout who has too often loved draft picks more than A-Rod loves himself, wasn't very emotional talking to me about what he gave up.

"I've kind of changed about draft choices, particularly first-rounders,'' Angelo told me. "I don't have the same conviction on ones that I used to. It's the money, the totally unrealistic expectations, players coming out younger and not as experienced, players with too much time on their hands and too much money and not being grounded enough. I've become a little pragmatic about the first-round picks. They've been looked at like the Holy Grail for so long. Here, we had a chance to get a quarterback who's already shown he can play really well in the league. He's a guy with resilience; you've got to be resilient playing at Vanderbilt and succeeding John Elway. So we felt like it was a good investment for us. Time will tell.''

That's the sign of a smart general manager. I didn't think Angelo had this kind of move in him, dealing a marginal starting quarterback and three high picks, leaving his team without a first-round pick for two straight years. But it's a gamble any smart GM would make.

Now for Orton. His first words to McDaniels illustrate the kind of sponge and -- the Broncos hope -- player he'll be in Denver, I think. "I just want to have an opportunity to compete for the job and help the team win,'' Orton told McDaniels.

Orton flew to Denver early Friday to meet everyone in the building, and later in the day was waiting at the airport in Denver to fly home when I reached him. He returned to Denver Sunday night, and he'll be a full-timer in the offseason program, competing with Chris Simms -- and maybe, though I doubt it, a first-round quarterback if McDaniels finds one he loves in the draft. I asked Orton why he said what he said first of all to McDaniels.

"It's all I've ever wanted,'' he said. "It's all I ever asked for in college [at Purdue] or here. As long as I have a fair chance, I can deal with whatever the coach decides.''

I found it interesting that Orton was so happy Friday night. Here he was, going from a team with a pretty good defense and a needy offense, where he was the no-doubt starter, to a team where he's the favorite to win the starting job, but nothing will be handed to him.

"It's the offense,'' he said. "I've watched it. I love it. The spread -- or at least, the multifaceted part of it -- really appeals to me. You change from game to game, and you do whatever gives your team the best chance to win that Sunday. That's the way an offense should be. But it counts on the quarterback to be smart at the line of scrimmage, and to make good decisions, and to be accurate. I think those are traits I have.''

Maybe, but he hasn't shown the accuracy in Chicago that he'll have to show in Denver. In 33 career games, he's completed just 55.3 percent of his throws. ...If that continues, McDaniels will have a new quarterback playing by December. But Orton will have two things he never had in Chicago -- time to throw (young tackles Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris are the best young pair of outside blockers in football), and talent to throw to; Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal, arguably, are the best young bookend receivers in the games. "When I found out about the trade,'' Orton said, "I was extremely happy. Everyone knows about Denver's talent on offense.''

As a coach, McDaniels has had great success helping his quarterbacks (Brady, Cassel) move the chains in New England. If he can pass that along to Orton, the offense shouldn't be what loses games for Denver. Now the new coach who's taken the great gamble better hope he can draft defensive players. It's only his job that hangs in the balance.

CONTINUE STORY on page 3

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 02:38 AM
This is the last page on the trade

Updated: Monday April 6, 2009 3:43AM
Peter King Peter King >
MONDAY MORNING QB
MMQB (cont.)

Quote Chain of the Week
Jay Cutler, to Jay Glazer of FoxSports.com, Wednesday night:

"I didn't want to get traded. That wasn't me. I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I didn't want it to get this far.''

Jay Cutler, to the Chicago media, 44 hours later:

"I'm really happy to be here. It's like a dream come true.''
Quote of the Week I

"If I keep my body in shape, and do the right things, I think I have maybe 10 or 12 more years in my career.''

The careers of Cassel, Cutler and Orton will now forever be entwined. Denver couldn't trade for Cassel in February, which led to Cutler's wildcat strike and trade to Chicago, which led to Orton landing in Denver.

What's so compelling about the quarterback musical chairs is the huge disparity in money they'll make this year. Cassel got the franchise tag in New England, and now, even though it would seem to make sense that Kansas City would try to sign him long-term and lessen the cap burden on the team, the Chiefs are in no hurry to whittle away his one-year contract of nearly $15 million.

At the league meetings two weeks ago, I ran into Cassel's agent, David Dunn, who was trying to figure out why in the world Kansas City GM Scott Pioli wasn't eager to do a long-term deal for Cassel. Simple, I theorized; Cassel's only done it once, and if he's only marginally successful this year with Kansas City, he's not going to be a very good bargain with the $30-million or so in guaranteed money the Chiefs would have to pay him to get a deal done. And if he's great this year, the Chiefs still have the right to make him a restricted free-agent next year, whereby they'd have to pay him 110 percent of his salary this year ($16.115 million) ... which would mean they'd be committing $30.77 million to him over the next two seasons. If you're not positive about whether a quarterback's going to be a franchise guy, it's probably smarter to make him prove it again, even if that could end up costing you a little more in the long run.

If Denver sees Orton as a solid starter this year, it's likely that it will try to re-sign him sometime this year rather than let him get to free-agency. He's in the final year of a two-year contract signed with the Bears last winter.

Cutler is entering year four of a six-year deal. My guess is the Bears will let him play this year out, then sign him after the season to a rich, new deal, assuming things go well in Chicago this year. Analyzing what each team -- the Chiefs, Bears and Broncos -- is getting for its buck this year, based on quarterback performance from 2008 (league rankings from 2008 in parentheses):
Player, Team 2009 base salary W-L Pct. Yards YPA TD-Int Rating
Matt Cassel, KC $14.65 million 11-5 .634 (14) 3,693 (8) 7.2 (11) 21-11 89.4 (10)

Jay Cutler, Chi. $1.04 million 8-8 .623 (11) 4,526 (3) 7.3 (10) 25-18 86.0 (16)

Kyle Orton, Den. $995,000 9-6 .585 (25) 2,972 (19) 6.4 (24) 18-12 79.6 (25)


End of story

lex
04-06-2009, 02:50 AM
After reading that, you have to really question taking Sanchez. If he was so sold on Orton that the deal hinged on him, it really doesnt make sense to take a QB in the 1st now.

worm
04-06-2009, 02:52 AM
After reading that, you have to really question taking Sanchez. If he was so sold on Orton that the deal hinged on him, it really doesnt make sense to take a QB in the 1st now.

Yep. I would be blown away if they took a QB in the first 3 rounds this year.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:53 AM
"Denver couldn't trade for Cassel in February, which led to Cutler's wildcat strike,"

Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:56 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

What am I thinking? Nobody ever admits when they're wrong around here.

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 03:06 AM
After reading that, you have to really question taking Sanchez. If he was so sold on Orton that the deal hinged on him, it really doesnt make sense to take a QB in the 1st now.

True Lex, would be surprised if he bites on a first round QB now. But wouldn't be surprised if he spends one of the 3rd rounders on what he deems a good sleeper QB he really likes to groom in the wings, just in case.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 03:26 AM
I agree with lex ... give Orton and Simms this year ... 2010 is the QB draft bonanza anyway.

It's pretty sad how Jay ignored Bowlen's calls ... bush league. I've said all along Jay was being a baby, but I wouldn't have guessed he would dis Pat like that.


"I didn't want to get traded. That wasn't me. I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I didn't want it to get this far.''

That's a sad quote ... sounds like he was still waiting to be wooed.

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 03:32 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

BB show me where he says anything about the original trade scenario? Saying Denver couldn't trade him is just short hand for the 'potential' deal that is not under dispute by anyone!

He doesn't imply or offer any details here about what really went down that day and likely has no more info than what McD has said. There has been NO ONE so far that has offered a credible insiders description of what went on that conflicts with McD and the Broncos insistence that it never got to that level of decision making before Cassel was traded to KC. Not one!

King using those words means nothing here. I have no doubt that if McD could do it all over again now with the benefit of hindsight and what he has since learned and had confirmed to him directly about Cutlers character and all he would have made sure to jump on that deal with Cassel like white on rice. But at the time I belief his repeated insistence that he was interested in looking at the deal but it never got sweet or interesting enough for them to take it to Bowlen.

Until we get a little more evidence to the contrary, Bowlen and McD have my vote of confidence here.

dbfan21
04-06-2009, 04:09 AM
After reading that, you have to really question taking Sanchez. If he was so sold on Orton that the deal hinged on him, it really doesnt make sense to take a QB in the 1st now.

Exactly. Orton seems like he's gonna be the man in Denver for a while.

On another note, I am very impressed with the level of detail and insight that King wrote with. I couldn't read it fast enough. How many of you were gobbling up words like it was candy? I know I was!!

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 04:28 AM
Wouldn't at all surprise me to see a top RB in the first 5 selected now either. With Orton and the new system you have to think McD wants to make Orton's job as easy as possible as well and a solid banger back there is a must.

Maybe even a nose tackle or Tyson Jackson along with Wells or Moreno with the two firsts.. More likely a second round pick for the RB but wouldn't rule out one of the first.

Blart
04-06-2009, 04:37 AM
Good article. I think the original deserves a link.

SpringStein
04-06-2009, 05:56 AM
Good article. I think the original deserves a link.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/04/05/trade/index.html

Broncoman13
04-06-2009, 06:23 AM
Very good article, thanks for posting and highlighting (bold) what you felt was intriguing.

I agree that Denver probably should've waited a little longer. They could have got the same deal down the road or kept Cutler. This had a lot to do with egos. Started with Cutler's and ended with Pat's. I don't think there is any doubt as to who has the bigger **** now! Ha!

Cutler will grow and mature. Will he ever be the leader we want our QB to be though... probably not. Described as a loner and having a "different" personality (C. Bailey) does not lead me to believe that he was on the right path. Those are traits that aren't generally changed and will probably stick with him forever. Still, people will gather around a gamer and IF he can lead his team to victory, that is all the leadership he need show b/c his teammates will follow a winner.

What the Bears need now is a strong handed receiver. All of you have seen Cutler in the games and know how he zings the ball. Many of you have not seen him in practice though. Brandon Marshall has very strong hands. Even with his injury his hands are stronger than most... for the most part he was the only one that could consistently catch those Cutler fastballs. IMO, the Bears would be very wise to sign Torry Holt. While he may not have the speed and quickness he once possessed, he is still a savvy veteran with outstanding hands. He would give the Bears a legitimate #1 receiver and help Cutler to succeed early in Chicago.

For the Broncos, the path forward seems to be Kyle Orton. Here is a snippet from a 2004 article I found just before Purdue played Michigan. Regarding the offense that Orton played in which has been described (Thanks Med!) as very similar to McD's.

Offensive Strategy:

Purdue runs its trademark one-back, multiple wide receiver offense well and makes defenses cover the entire field. The BoilerMakers run the ball more than perceived. In 2003 the team ran the ball more than it passed and this year's offense is very balanced (only four more passes than runs). Brandon Jones and Jerod Void do a good job off keeping defenses honest and that translates into more success for Orton and the passing game. Also, watch for the ball to be thrown to the tailbacks on screens and swings to the flat. Purdue has done it all year and Illinois burned Michigan on passes to the backs. Purdue believes in getting the ball short to it's playmakers and allowing them to do just that- make plays. On Saturday look for a balanced attack initially. Michigan will be using a lot of defensive backs in nickel packages to offset the passing game. A consistent ground game may force Jim Hermann to add a man to the box, giving Orton more single coverage looks.

Kyle Orton's stats his final year at Purdue:
Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rating RushAtt Yds Avg TD
389 236 60.7 3,090 31 5 151.1 80 112 1.4 3

This despite having receivers that were generally described as system types and the only notable receiver they had was Taylor Stubblefield (released by the Panthers as a rookie in '05).

Bottom line, I think we should expect to see 4 defensive picks in our first 5 picks (rds 1-3) in a couple of weeks. I'm still trying to gauge who we will go with on offense. If Maclin slips he'll likely be the pick. Other than Maclin it could be any one of Wells, Moreno, Harvin, Unger, Brown, or McCoy. I say Unger only b/c I think McD will be intrigued by his ability to play multiple positions effectively and the fact that he can be groomed as the Center of the future.

Mogulseeker
04-06-2009, 06:56 AM
Orton is starting to grow on me. He might be an average to below average NFL starting QB, but it seems liek he's more coachable than Cutler, and a better fit for the system.

We've got a solid (perhaps the best) offensive line in Clady, Harris, Wiegman, and Hamilton ... Graham, Marshall, Royal, Stokely to throw to ... if Hillis is as good as I think he is, than Orton should be a very efficient QB for us.

I wouldn't be suprised if he puts up better stats than Cutler the next couple of years.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

No kidding!!

and for the record as well

"For now, I'll declare the two winners to be the Bears and Orton. "


Why is only the positive Broncos slant hilighted in the article? equally as much damning evidence to the contrary.

snowspot66
04-06-2009, 07:32 AM
I'm not overly concerned about losing Cutler. It really sucks but at the same time I think his success was tied to Bates and the Oline. He has neither in Chicago. The running games are about equal. The receivers in Chicago aren't even in the same level. Offensively Chicago is poorer talent wise across the entire board except QB now.

Defensively they are average but haven't been dominant since they lost the Super Bowl. Will they continue the trend down or right the ship?

People b****ed about his on field attitude and yelling at his receivers. Well now he has guys that barely qualify for the job description. How is that going to work for the teams chemistry?

People b****ed that Cutler turned it over too much this past year. What's he going to do in Chicago now that he won't have 5 seconds to throw it every play? He's going to have to grow up damn quick or they'll be regretting it by week 5.

I don't think Cutler will ever win a Super Bowl. I think it's more likely he'll alienate a batch of teammates (he's the new guy now, he has to earn this teams trust, it's not a bunch of rookies & second year guys playing follow the leader) and get hurt when his mentality of not avoiding contact on the field runs into the Bears piss poor pass protection.

Our only concern should be turning the picks we got into solid starters or better. If we do that we come out winners. We can get by with Orton if we do that. We got by with Plummer after all.

cmhargrove
04-06-2009, 07:34 AM
Does anyone have the video replay when Orton got injured and had his O-linemen carry him up to the line of scrimmage? Wasn't that him?

The dude looks goofy (so did Cutler), but he has heart.

T henry rulz
04-06-2009, 07:36 AM
Wow. What a bunch of dilusional homers.

One question. Before McDaniels upset Cutler with his failed attempt to land his golden boy Cassel, is there any way Denver would have traded Cutler for anything? Hell no. Good move on the no registration thing BTW. Wouldn't want to hurt any vags around here. I'm sure this post is enough to get me banned from such a manly site too. Don't bother I'm gone.

broncofan
04-06-2009, 07:37 AM
Orton is starting to grow on me. He might be an average to below average NFL starting QB, but it seems liek he's more coachable than Cutler, and a better fit for the system.

We've got a solid (perhaps the best) offensive line in Clady, Harris, Wiegman, and Hamilton ... Graham, Marshall, Royal, Stokely to throw to ... if Hillis is as good as I think he is, than Orton should be a very efficient QB for us.

I wouldn't be suprised if he puts up better stats than Cutler the next couple of years.

Same here. I'm pretty intrigued to see what develops, as I feel that Orton is a better QB than Matt Cassel.

T henry rulz
04-06-2009, 07:42 AM
Same here. I'm pretty intrigued to see what develops, as I feel that Orton is a better QB than Matt Cassel.


OMFG!! You guys are absolute HOMERS!!!. If you had Cassel paired with Mcdaniels (the QB he wanted) You would be calling him the best QB in the league.

Orton? ORTON????

lostknight
04-06-2009, 07:43 AM
1. The key to the trade was Kyle Orton.[/SIZE] Laugh if you want, but it's the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington's Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay's Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.[/B]

[SIZE="3"]But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton's arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it's crazy he didn't like Campbell -- who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year -- more than he liked Orton, but it's the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.

McDaniels thinks that he can win with his grandmother at QB from what I can tell.

If he can't win with Orton, and if Pat Bowlen isn't senile, he should be gone this year. Period. Props to him if he pulls it off.

As far as Cutler versus McDaniel's goes, Let's keep in mind that Cutler (or any player) is going to do what is best for him unless given sufficent reason not to be the HC/GM. It is the HC/GM's job is to do what's best for the team and convience players to play for them.

Letting Bus Cook and the best young Pro-Bowl quarterback in the league go because you were unable to manage their ego is still a disaster. Pat Bowlner getting so pissed that he publically declared a trade loosing leverage is another example of how arrogant/useless the front office is.

Peter King puts the decision on Jay, but Jay is getting exactly what he wanted, and he played McDaniels as a fool to do it.

Broncoman13
04-06-2009, 07:49 AM
No kidding!!

and for the record as well

"For now, I'll declare the two winners to be the Bears and Orton. "


Why is only the positive Broncos slant hilighted in the article? equally as much damning evidence to the contrary.

Kind of hard not to say that "for now the winners are the Bears and Orton." It will likely take a few years to really determine the "winner" of the trade. And naturally it all depends on how our additional draft picks turn out.

I do have concerns about our draft as we have lost a lot in the scouting department. New personnel scattered throughout and recently added to boot.

gunns
04-06-2009, 08:08 AM
The only way I'll call Denver a winner in this is if they use eight primo picks -- five picks in the top 2.5 rounds of this draft, and three more in the first two rounds next year -- to rebuild a patchwork defense.

Exactly what I've said. I won't go totally ballistic if it's top tier RB but any other offensive player will send me through the roof.

broncobum6162
04-06-2009, 08:18 AM
Awesome read. Thanks for the info!

Pseudofool
04-06-2009, 08:34 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?That sentence doesn't mean that at all. Uhh Esp. since it's in the negative.

BTW: is there an ignore feature, I'd like to start ignoring the Cutler apologists.

titan
04-06-2009, 08:39 AM
Orton is starting to grow on me. He might be an average to below average NFL starting QB, but it seems liek he's more coachable than Cutler, and a better fit for the system.

...
I wouldn't be suprised if he puts up better stats than Cutler the next couple of years.

I am feeling the same way, after reading this article and listening to Gary Miller interview Orton on Channel 4's all access show last night. Orton comes off as a hard working team oriented player who is genuinely excited about being here.

Different sport, but this trade is starting to remind me of when the Nuggets traded Kiki Vandeweghe to the Blazers for multiple players (including Calvin Natt) back in the 80's. Kiki was the "jay cutler" of the deal - no problem with his attitude but he was the star - leading nba scorer, flashy. Calvin Natt was the "Kyle Orton" of that deal - hard working unsung player. Natt turned out to be better for the Nuggets than Vandeweghe, and the extra players obtained (including star point guard fat lever) made the trade a big win for the nuggets.

Back to football, I think with the offensive weapons and solid line the Broncos have that Orton will be more than adequate. Now let's see what they do with those draft picks to rebuild the defense.

Drek
04-06-2009, 08:47 AM
Exactly what I've said. I won't go totally ballistic if it's top tier RB but any other offensive player will send me through the roof.

So if Crabtree fell to #12 you'd be pissed?

Or if Mack slid to #48 and they too him there?

There are a lot of very good offensive players out there who fill holes that we legitimately could use more depth at.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 08:48 AM
I think waiting until right before the draft to trade Jay would have been stupid. They got a great deal right now, and by making it happen fast gave themselves almost a full month to prepare their draft board knowing what picks they have. Peter King didn't think that one thru too much. Cutler wasn't fully on board with playing in Denver, and Denver didn't want him all that much either. I applaud the team for doing the smart thing.

Not to mention by making the trade fast they get Orton in with plenty of time to assimilate the offense and bond with teammates. King didn't think that thru very well.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:56 AM
I think waiting until right before the draft to trade Jay would have been stupid. They got a great deal right now, and by making it happen fast gave themselves almost a full month to prepare their draft board knowing what picks they have. Peter King didn't think that one thru too much. Cutler wasn't fully on board with playing in Denver, and Denver didn't want him all that much either. I applaud the team for doing the smart thing.

Not to mention by making the trade fast they get Orton in with plenty of time to assimilate the offense and bond with teammates. King didn't think that thru very well.

Taking another part of the King report, I'd have to say the speed of the trade was not due to McD's planning. It was more likely due to Bowlen saying, "That is the end of this mofo in Denver. I want him gone now. Do it!" Who knows, maybe Jay's dad brought in the playbook because Jay was told never to set foot in the facility again. Who knows?

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:58 AM
Very good article, thanks for posting and highlighting (bold) what you felt was intriguing.

I agree that Denver probably should've waited a little longer. They could have got the same deal down the road or kept Cutler. This had a lot to do with egos. Started with Cutler's and ended with Pat's. I don't think there is any doubt as to who has the bigger **** now! Ha!

Cutler will grow and mature. Will he ever be the leader we want our QB to be though... probably not. Described as a loner and having a "different" personality (C. Bailey) does not lead me to believe that he was on the right path. Those are traits that aren't generally changed and will probably stick with him forever. Still, people will gather around a gamer and IF he can lead his team to victory, that is all the leadership he need show b/c his teammates will follow a winner.

What the Bears need now is a strong handed receiver. All of you have seen Cutler in the games and know how he zings the ball. Many of you have not seen him in practice though. Brandon Marshall has very strong hands. Even with his injury his hands are stronger than most... for the most part he was the only one that could consistently catch those Cutler fastballs. IMO, the Bears would be very wise to sign Torry Holt. While he may not have the speed and quickness he once possessed, he is still a savvy veteran with outstanding hands. He would give the Bears a legitimate #1 receiver and help Cutler to succeed early in Chicago.

For the Broncos, the path forward seems to be Kyle Orton. Here is a snippet from a 2004 article I found just before Purdue played Michigan. Regarding the offense that Orton played in which has been described (Thanks Med!) as very similar to McD's.

Offensive Strategy:

Purdue runs its trademark one-back, multiple wide receiver offense well and makes defenses cover the entire field. The BoilerMakers run the ball more than perceived. In 2003 the team ran the ball more than it passed and this year's offense is very balanced (only four more passes than runs). Brandon Jones and Jerod Void do a good job off keeping defenses honest and that translates into more success for Orton and the passing game. Also, watch for the ball to be thrown to the tailbacks on screens and swings to the flat. Purdue has done it all year and Illinois burned Michigan on passes to the backs. Purdue believes in getting the ball short to it's playmakers and allowing them to do just that- make plays. On Saturday look for a balanced attack initially. Michigan will be using a lot of defensive backs in nickel packages to offset the passing game. A consistent ground game may force Jim Hermann to add a man to the box, giving Orton more single coverage looks.

Kyle Orton's stats his final year at Purdue:
Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rating RushAtt Yds Avg TD
389 236 60.7 3,090 31 5 151.1 80 112 1.4 3

This despite having receivers that were generally described as system types and the only notable receiver they had was Taylor Stubblefield (released by the Panthers as a rookie in '05).

Bottom line, I think we should expect to see 4 defensive picks in our first 5 picks (rds 1-3) in a couple of weeks. I'm still trying to gauge who we will go with on offense. If Maclin slips he'll likely be the pick. Other than Maclin it could be any one of Wells, Moreno, Harvin, Unger, Brown, or McCoy. I say Unger only b/c I think McD will be intrigued by his ability to play multiple positions effectively and the fact that he can be groomed as the Center of the future.

Nice post. This leads me to believe that McD would never draft Beanie Wells. Has the guy caught a pass during his entire college career? Moreno is a very good receiver.

no-pseudo-fan
04-06-2009, 09:00 AM
We have 3 times the weapons on offense that the Bears have + the Offensive line to protect the QB. With Chicago's D getter older, I think that we could've really gotten the better of the deal.

Also, I think that we should of bluffed Chicago: Saying that we like Orton, but we have a team that is willing to give us 2 1's and a 2 plus a QB, and they have a higher pick than you. Get back to us.

Spider
04-06-2009, 09:13 AM
I am ****ting in high cotton ......

baja
04-06-2009, 09:15 AM
I would be happier if we countered with we keep the 5th

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:17 AM
McDaniels thinks that he can win with his grandmother at QB from what I can tell.

If he can't win with Orton, and if Pat Bowlen isn't senile, he should be gone this year. Period. Props to him if he pulls it off.

As far as Cutler versus McDaniel's goes, Let's keep in mind that Cutler (or any player) is going to do what is best for him unless given sufficent reason not to be the HC/GM. It is the HC/GM's job is to do what's best for the team and convience players to play for them.

Letting Bus Cook and the best young Pro-Bowl quarterback in the league go because you were unable to manage their ego is still a disaster. Pat Bowlner getting so pissed that he publically declared a trade loosing leverage is another example of how arrogant/useless the front office is.

Peter King puts the decision on Jay, but Jay is getting exactly what he wanted, and he played McDaniels as a fool to do it.

Precisely.....

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:19 AM
Kind of hard not to say that "for now the winners are the Bears and Orton." It will likely take a few years to really determine the "winner" of the trade. And naturally it all depends on how our additional draft picks turn out.

I do have concerns about our draft as we have lost a lot in the scouting department. New personnel scattered throughout and recently added to boot.

I couldn't agree more. Especially about the draft. McD has never run his own draft or had the final say. Sad thing is, he could be gone before we know whether he's any good at it or not.....

gunns
04-06-2009, 09:21 AM
So if Crabtree fell to #12 you'd be pissed?

Or if Mack slid to #48 and they too him there?

There are a lot of very good offensive players out there who fill holes that we legitimately could use more depth at.

I would love to see us take D players at the first 5 picks. I know that's not realistic and was referring more to just the 1st round. BUT, if we took Crabtree in the first round, it would be akin to when we took Tommy Maddox or Ashley Lelie. I'd probably have to be hospitalized for intense hyperventilation or destructive behavior. If I had a football team there would be three rules I would live by.....NEVER, EVER take a WR in the first round and NEVER, EVER take a Penn St. player. Now Mack I would have no problem taking at 48 but unfortunately he won't last that long. Pitt will probably grab him at 32. My 3rd rule, defense wins championships

Spider
04-06-2009, 09:22 AM
I would love to see us take D players at the first 5 picks. I know that's not realistic and was referring more to just the 1st round. BUT, if we took Crabtree in the first round, it would be akin to when we took Tommy Maddox or Ashley Lelie. I'd probably have to be hospitalized for intense hyperventilation or destructive behavior. If I had a football team there would be two rules I would live by.....NEVER, EVER take a WR in the first round and NEVER, EVER take a Penn St. player. Now Mack I would have no problem taking at 48 but unfortunately he won't last that long. Pitt will probably grab him at 32.

agreed I would love to see us bring in 10 picks of all D players

Tombstone RJ
04-06-2009, 09:22 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

That's your interpretation of the events that transpired. Listen, it's Cutler who looks the fool here. It's Cutler who did not communicate and who asked to be traded when Bates was fired.

I'll contend that McD actively listened to a trade proposal involving Cassel, but when it didn't pan out, McD left the poker table.

crazyhorse
04-06-2009, 09:27 AM
Not so sure the Broncos could have waited till the draft. The longer the situation festered the clearer it became. IMO Cutler is a cancer and acts like a locker room bitcher. The more he spoke the more it was becoming evident what he was all about. Given enough time, Chicago, Tampa or Washington may have seen enough to cool on the idea.

As much as it pains me to say so, McD and Bowlen, IMO was on the right track from day one. You just dumped Jeff George for a boat laod of draft picks.

Congrats.

In the end Cutlers temper paid off as far as he's concerned. Which means he will continue to think he's above the team and can throw a fit to get what he wants. The Bears have acted as an enabler in this mess. So dont be surprized if Cutler turns into the next TO. TO did the same thing in SF. It even got the head coach fired. Since then, he has been a train wreck for every team he's been on. Great talent, but his own equalizer.

Drek
04-06-2009, 09:29 AM
I would love to see us take D players at the first 5 picks. I know that's not realistic and was referring more to just the 1st round. BUT, if we took Crabtree in the first round, it would be akin to when we took Tommy Maddox or Ashley Lelie. I'd probably have to be hospitalized for intense hyperventilation or destructive behavior. If I had a football team there would be three rules I would live by.....NEVER, EVER take a WR in the first round and NEVER, EVER take a Penn St. player. Now Mack I would have no problem taking at 48 but unfortunately he won't last that long. Pitt will probably grab him at 32. My 3rd rule, defense wins championships

Crabtree played at Texas Tech.

And just FYI, Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald were both first round picks. WR isn't like QB where you only put one on the field. We'll typically probably run 3 of them out at a time.

And both are unlikely, but it'd be a massive stroke of luck to get either of them at those positions, not a reason for someone to get pissed.

baja
04-06-2009, 09:32 AM
Not so sure the Broncos could have waited till the draft. The longer the situation festered the clearer it became. IMO Cutler is a cancer and acts like a locker room b****er. The more he spoke the more it was becoming evident what he was all about. Given enough time, Chicago, Tampa or Washington may have seen enough to cool on the idea.

As much as it pains me to say so, McD and Bowlen, IMO was on the right track from day one. You just dumped Jeff George for a boat laod of draft picks.

Congrats.

In the end Cutlers temper paid off as far as he's concerned. Which means he will continue to think he's above the team and can throw a fit to get what he wants. The Bears have acted as an enabler in this mess. So dont be surprized if Cutler turns into the next TO. TO did the same thing in SF. It even got the head coach fired. Since then, he has been a train wreck for every team he's been on. Great talent, but his own equalizer.

I think this is the most likely turn out of Cutler's career. I think Pat and Josh were probably saying lets take this deal before Chicago changes their mind.

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:32 AM
Not so sure the Broncos could have waited till the draft. The longer the situation festered the clearer it became. IMO Cutler is a cancer and acts like a locker room b****er. The more he spoke the more it was becoming evident what he was all about. Given enough time, Chicago, Tampa or Washington may have seen enough to cool on the idea.

As much as it pains me to say so, McD and Bowlen, IMO was on the right track from day one. You just dumped Jeff George for a boat laod of draft picks.

Congrats.

In the end Cutlers temper paid off as far as he's concerned. Which means he will continue to think he's above the team and can throw a fit to get what he wants. The Bears have acted as an enabler in this mess. So dont be surprized if Cutler turns into the next TO. TO did the same thing in SF. It even got the head coach fired. Since then, he has been a train wreck for every team he's been on. Great talent, but his own equalizer.

Homer BS. TO is a complete head case. Cutler comes from a good solid mid-western family. He got what he wanted! Many of the McD apologists nurture their own egos with this crap but they fail to recognize the same logic that they use against Cuter. (Popps is the leader)

"McD saw something in Cutler that he didn't like so he set the wheels in motion..."

I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 09:32 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

I think King is telling us that the moral to this entire episode can be boiled down into one, simple sentence: You can have all sorts of disagreements, and try all sorts of strategies, but never, never dis the owner. Because at that point, the game is over. I'll guarantee you one thing, no player, or agent, will ever pull this **** on Bowlen again.

baja
04-06-2009, 09:35 AM
I think King is telling us that the moral to this entire episode can be boiled down into one, simple sentence: You can have all sorts of disagreements, and try all sorts of strategies, but never, never dis the owner. Because at that point, the game is over. I'll guarantee you one thing, no player, or agent, will ever pull this **** on Bowlen again.

Unless of course they want a trade!

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:36 AM
Unless of course they want a trade!

Exactly. Bottom line. Instead of being a manager of ego, you let yours get in the way and create a situation that makes the QB want to leave.

gunns
04-06-2009, 09:37 AM
Crabtree played at Texas Tech.

And just FYI, Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald were both first round picks. WR isn't like QB where you only put one on the field. We'll typically probably run 3 of them out at a time.

And both are unlikely, but it'd be a massive stroke of luck to get either of them at those positions, not a reason for someone to get pissed.

I know Crabtree played at Texas Tech. But he is a WR. I wasn't referring to him playing at Penn St. It was just one of my rules. Wow, you came up with two first round WR's that actually were game changers. Kudos!

crazyhorse
04-06-2009, 09:38 AM
Homer BS. TO is a complete head case. Cutler comes from a good solid mid-western family. He got what he wanted! Many of the McD apologists nurture their own egos with this crap but they fail to recognize the same logic that they use against Cuter. (Popps is the leader)

"McD saw something in Cutler that he didn't like so he set the wheels in motion..."

I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

I'm no Denver homer. I can assure you of that. There is no other reason for me to say what I said, other than it's exactly what I see. In fact, I would have rather had Cutler stay and crash the team. What I was saying, was a compliment.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 09:39 AM
Nice post. This leads me to believe that McD would never draft Beanie Wells. Has the guy caught a pass during his entire college career? Moreno is a very good receiver.

Yeah, I'm thinking if McDaniels goes RB early (and I think this became a bit more likely with the two additional 2009 picks) it will be Moreno because of the receiving dimension.

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm no Denver homer. I can assure you of that. There is no other reason for me to say what I said, other than it's exactly what I see. In fact, I would have rather had Cutler stay and crash the team. What I was saying, was a compliment.

Noted but if you don't see the other egos other than Jay's in the situation making the situation as much what it was as what JC did then you're perspective lacks focus. One of the most conservative blue collar GM's in the business didn't believe it either.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 09:42 AM
Homer BS. TO is a complete head case. Cutler comes from a good solid mid-western family. He got what he wanted! Many of the McD apologists nurture their own egos with this crap but they fail to recognize the same logic that they use against Cuter. (Popps is the leader)

"McD saw something in Cutler that he didn't like so he set the wheels in motion..."

I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

Hambone, let me introduce you to Crazyhorse, our resident Cheffie (and sometime troll). I got a good laugh out of you calling him a Denver homer. Good one. :thumbs:

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Homer BS. TO is a complete head case. Cutler comes from a good solid mid-western family. He got what he wanted! Many of the McD apologists nurture their own egos with this crap but they fail to recognize the same logic that they use against Cuter. (Popps is the leader)

"McD saw something in Cutler that he didn't like so he set the wheels in motion..."

I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

Racial reference aside, this is a dumb post. Cutler OBVIOUSLY is a headcase. Normal people don't react so hurt in a situation so benign.

SportinOne
04-06-2009, 09:45 AM
Wow... so McD got such a hard on for Orton that he never gave washington, and their 13th overall pick, and their history for laying back and taking it from us in trades, a shot to match or better Chicago's offer?

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

McDaniels BETTER NOT draft a QB in the first 5 rounds in this draft OR the next 3 drafts. If he is sold on Orton, I will trust him. But if things seriously went down this way and he is looking at another QB any time soon I think that will be it.. At that point, I just don't think i can support him or this team anymore. But we'll see. Orton could be alright and in his system maybe even... great?

USMCBladerunner
04-06-2009, 09:47 AM
I would be happier if we countered with we keep the 5th

baja??!!

we had just offered the 5th as a counter to receiving a 4th instead of a 3rd...you can't reneg what you just offered!

cmon...you're better than that!

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:47 AM
Racial reference aside, this is a dumb post. Cutler OBVIOUSLY is a headcase. Normal people don't react so hurt in a situation so benign.

If you see some racial reference in my post you're a head case too. People with character frequently don't like liars. That doesn't make them great business people, being governed by their emotions but when they have the human capital to do what they want, they do it.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 09:47 AM
Wow... so McD got such a hard on for Orton that he never gave washington, and their 13th overall pick, and their history for laying back and taking it from us in trades, a shot to match or better Chicago's offer?

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

McDaniels BETTER NOT draft a QB in the first 5 rounds in this draft OR the next 3 drafts. If he is sold on Orton, I will trust him. But if things seriously went down this way and he is looking at another QB any time soon I think that will be it.. At that point, I just don't think i can support him or this team anymore. But we'll see. Orton could be alright and in his system maybe even... great?

Like McD already said, he will do what he thinks is best for the team. Maybe you should go ahead and pack those bags. ;D

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 09:49 AM
If you see some racial reference in my post you're a head case too. People with character frequently don't like liars. That doesn't make them great business people, being governed by their emotions but when they have the human capital to do what they want, they do it.

Calling TO a headcase and then referring to Cutler's "solid midwestern upbringing" have such strong racial undertones that i don't even know where to begin.

People with character normally do not overreact to a situation in which nothing has been taken from them.

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Calling TO a headcase and then referring to Cutler's "solid midwestern upbringing" have such strong racial undertones that i don't even know where to begin.

People with character normally do not overreact to a situation in which nothing has been taken from them.

I rest my case. There is every race in the mid-west, move along with the racial references jackass and it was his pride that was taken from him.

crazyhorse
04-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Noted but if you don't see the other egos other than Jay's in the situation making the situation as much what it was as what JC did then you're perspective lacks focus. One of the most conservative blue collar GM's in the business didn't believe it either.

There are egos in sports. It's a requirement. But when arrogance and a holier than thou attitude get's mixed in, you have the Cutler senario.

I dont think the Broncos were that interested in "fixing" the relationship.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 09:52 AM
I rest my case. There is every race in the mid-west, move along with the racial references jackass and it was his pride that was taken from him.

Keep telling yourself that, you miserable asshole.

Your "pride." Get the **** over it. No money was taken from him, nor was his job. He might be a great player, but he's a bitch.

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:52 AM
There are egos in sports. It's a requirement. But when arrogance and a holier than thou attitude get's mixed in, you have the Cutler senario.

I dont think the Broncos were that interested in "fixing" the relationship.

You don't see any arrogance on Pat Bowlen and McDaniels side of the fence?

Spider
04-06-2009, 09:54 AM
Homer BS. TO is a complete head case. Cutler comes from a good solid mid-western family. He got what he wanted! Many of the McD apologists nurture their own egos with this crap but they fail to recognize the same logic that they use against Cuter. (Popps is the leader)

"McD saw something in Cutler that he didn't like so he set the wheels in motion..."

I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

LOL ........ Crazyhorse a Denver Bronco homer ...... :rofl:
I dont think it was mcD that didnt like Cutler , I think it was Bowlen himself , Something happened in a phone call somewhere we didnt hear about, that chapped Bowlens ass about Cutler ......

hambone13
04-06-2009, 09:56 AM
Keep telling yourself that, you miserable a-hole.

Your "pride." Get the **** over it. No money was taken from him, nor was his job. He might be a great player, but he's a b****.

Every party in this situation was a b****, is all I'm saying. At the end of the day most teams management can handle a big ego from an extremely talented key position like QB.

You seriously need to have your paranoid head examined if you thing I'm a racist. You don't even know what race I am.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 09:56 AM
LOL ........ Crazyhorse a Denver Bronco homer ...... :rofl:
I dont think it was mcD that didnt like Cutler , I think it was Bowlen himself , Something happened in a phone call somewhere we didnt hear about, that chapped Bowlens ass about Cutler ......

What ever it was, **** sure moved fast after that.

Spider
04-06-2009, 09:56 AM
You don't see any arrogance on Pat Bowlen and McDaniels side of the fence?

the Boss = arrogance , and he should be , he is the one that is large and in charge ....... If you can get someone to do the same job cheaper...... So long Cutler nice knowing ya ......

TheDave
04-06-2009, 09:57 AM
Well none of this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy... Like I've said from day one this is/was a sad situation. Hopefully this collection of picks allows us to field a real defense in the next season or 2. Even without Cutler I think the Offense will be above average. Combine that with a competent defense and should be able to compete in this extremely mediocre division.

I still wish we would of figured out a way to make this work... but, It is what it is.

Drek
04-06-2009, 09:59 AM
I know Crabtree played at Texas Tech. But he is a WR. I wasn't referring to him playing at Penn St. It was just one of my rules. Wow, you came up with two first round WR's that actually were game changers. Kudos!

The second of whom (Fitzgerald) is often cited as Crabtree's best comp.

Every player could potentially be a bust. Crabtree has top 5 talent, if he's there at #12 its a massive steal.

Paladin
04-06-2009, 10:01 AM
LOL ........ Crazyhorse a Denver Bronco homer ...... :rofl:
I dont think it was mcD that didnt like Cutler , I think it was Bowlen himself , Something happened in a phone call somewhere we didnt hear about, that chapped Bowlens ass about Cutler ......

He did say that he spoke with Bus, and that was when he knew that Cutler was going. All of you boys are forgeting Bus' role in the play.

I am so over this crap, and I really don't give a rats' patooie who did what or whenever or however anymore. If your butt is still chaffing, get a life because there are other events afoot now. We are moving on......

hambone13
04-06-2009, 10:02 AM
the Boss = arrogance , and he should be , he is the one that is large and in charge ....... If you can get someone to do the same job cheaper...... So long Cutler nice knowing ya ......

(a piss poor boss=arrogance) Just because you're in charge doesn't mean you have to prove who can piss further. Good leadership breads good leadership. One can teach humility with power but it tends to create a negative effect in the long term.

Drek
04-06-2009, 10:03 AM
If you see some racial reference in my post you're a head case too. People with character frequently don't like liars. That doesn't make them great business people, being governed by their emotions but when they have the human capital to do what they want, they do it.
Being from the mid-west innately instills character?

Thats the problem here. You're saying that T.O., a boy from the south, has no character while Cutler, a mid-western boy, must have it in spades. Its geographic on the surface, but if you didn't understand the racial undertones of the comment then you're a moron.

Also, there is nothing that substantiates Cutler's accusation that McDaniels and Bowlen lied to him. There are however multiple cases that show Cutler has clearly lied, multiple times. Most recently his official demand for a trade, then saying it isn't what he actually wanted when it happened.

I don't know, but asking for something implies to my northeastern sense of values that its what you want.

outdoor_miner
04-06-2009, 10:03 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

I'm with some of the other people on this thread... I don't read that and see "Denver tried desperately to acquire Cassel" no matter how hard I try. I mean - I'm trying to be open-minded because you're a good poster and we've argued about this before, but all I see is a reference to the fact that Denver was involved in trade-talks for Matt Cassel; something they've never denied. I just don't see that this is some daming indictment against McDaniels previous statements.

Spider
04-06-2009, 10:05 AM
(a piss poor boss=arrogance) Just because you're in charge doesn't mean you have to prove who can piss further. Good leadership breads good leadership. One can teach humility with power but it tends to create a negative effect in the long term.

Here in the real world the golden rule ... he who has the gold makes the rules , you dont like it go somewhere else ......... thats how it works .........And it looks like Bowlen can piss further , he replaced Cutler with Orton and a **** load of draft picks .......Winner Bowlen

vancejohnson82
04-06-2009, 10:06 AM
(a piss poor boss=arrogance) Just because you're in charge doesn't mean you have to prove who can piss further. Good leadership breads good leadership. One can teach humility with power but it tends to create a negative effect in the long term.

and I would say the same thing about Cutler and his leadership..

hambone13
04-06-2009, 10:07 AM
Here in the real world the golden rule ... he who has the gold makes the rules , you dont like it go somewhere else ......... thats how it works .........And it looks like Bowlen can piss further , he replaced Cutler with Orton and a **** load of draft picks .......Winner Bowlen

You're absolutely right. Bowlen did win his pissing match but JC didn't lose because he got what he wanted. He doesn't have to play for a guy he doesn't trust and he gets to QB the team he grew up loving. Loser, the fans.....

Spider
04-06-2009, 10:07 AM
Watching Bowlen on TV reminds me of my Grandpa , make a long story short , not a man that likes to be ****ed with ....... be it Cutler , or Bus , one of those 2 pissed off one of the best owners in the NFL

hambone13
04-06-2009, 10:08 AM
and I would say the same thing about Cutler and his leadership..

I agree he has a lot to learn. Who was the parent and who was the child.....

Spider
04-06-2009, 10:08 AM
You're absolutely right. Bowlen did win his pissing match but JC didn't lose because he got what he wanted. He doesn't have to play for a guy he doesn't trust and he gets to QB the team he grew up loving. Loser, the fans.....
Oh he lost , Pace is on his last legs , the oline is weak , it will take time to rebuild , and without top draft picks ..... ouch ..........

baja
04-06-2009, 10:08 AM
baja??!!

we had just offered the 5th as a counter to receiving a 4th instead of a 3rd...you can't reneg what you just offered!

cmon...you're better than that!

let's see if I can talk myself out of this one. ;D

OK we say,Hold the phone Chicago things just changed Snyder just called and offered us 2 1's a 2 and Campbell but we like you QB better and are willing to take your 18 instead of their 13 but we are going to need our 5th back or we are forced to deal with them. You got 30 minutes......

BigPlayShay
04-06-2009, 10:10 AM
I think Cutler saw something in McD and that set the wheels in motion....

Yeah, he saw a coach that was not going to pamper him, may have been critical of him, and would not give him free reign to throw the ball deep and into double or triple coverage every play.

Same reason Cutler would not have reported if traded to Cleveland. Mangini being from the same coaching tree as McD, and having just been fired for holding a QB to a completely different standard than the rest of the team. I am sure Mangini learned his lesson and Jayby didn't want any part of the Patriot way (team concept).

hambone13
04-06-2009, 10:10 AM
Watching Bowlen on TV reminds me of my Grandpa , make a long story short , not a man that likes to be ****ed with ....... be it Cutler , or Bus , one of those 2 pissed off one of the best owners in the NFL

I don't know if he's one of the best any more or not. He can't remember but I remember when he was pretty solid.

hambone13
04-06-2009, 10:12 AM
Yeah, he saw a coach that was not going to pamper him, may have been critical of him, and would not give him free reign to throw the ball deep and into double or triple coverage every play.

Same reason Cutler would not have reported if traded to Cleveland. Mangini being from the same coaching tree as McD, and having just been fired for holding a QB to a completely different standard than the rest of the team. I am sure Mangini learned his lesson and Jayby didn't want any part of the Patriot way (team concept).

You might be right. However team concept can be taught and encouraged, talent can't.

Spider
04-06-2009, 10:13 AM
I don't know if he's one of the best any more or not. He can't remember but I remember when he was pretty solid.

meh ......

baja
04-06-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm with some of the other people on this thread... I don't read that and see "Denver tried desperately to acquire Cassel" no matter how hard I try. I mean - I'm trying to be open-minded because you're a good poster and we've argued about this before, but all I see is a reference to the fact that Denver was involved in trade-talks for Matt Cassel; something they've never denied. I just don't see that this is some daming indictment against McDaniels previous statements.

He was in the room with So Cal so he got the virus too. So sad, this thing has hit our best and finest bronco fans the hardest.

I ask you is there a God?

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 10:16 AM
The second of whom (Fitzgerald) is often cited as Crabtree's best comp.

Every player could potentially be a bust. Crabtree has top 5 talent, if he's there at #12 its a massive steal.

Yeah, but stress fractures can linger for a long time. Some players come back from them quick. Some, it bothers for a long time. If I was a GM, I wouldn't gamble a top ten pick on anybody I had questions about, especially a medical question.

Popps
04-06-2009, 10:28 AM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

What are you talking about? Of course there were trade discussions involving Cassel. We wouldn't be where we are if there weren't.

I'm not sure what your point is, though... I'm guessing it's probably petty and irrelevant.

USMCBladerunner
04-06-2009, 10:37 AM
Wow... so McD got such a hard on for Orton that he never gave washington, and their 13th overall pick, and their history for laying back and taking it from us in trades, a shot to match or better Chicago's offer?

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

McDaniels BETTER NOT draft a QB in the first 5 rounds in this draft OR the next 3 drafts. If he is sold on Orton, I will trust him. But if things seriously went down this way and he is looking at another QB any time soon I think that will be it.. At that point, I just don't think i can support him or this team anymore. But we'll see. Orton could be alright and in his system maybe even... great?

Well, looking forward 3 drafts is silly, but I fully expect that drafting a QB in rounds 1-4 this year is off the table...I expect Orton to be the starter this season...but who knows after that.

USMCBladerunner
04-06-2009, 10:44 AM
let's see if I can talk myself out of this one. ;D

OK we say,Hold the phone Chicago things just changed Snyder just called and offered us 2 1's a 2 and Campbell but we like you QB better and are willing to take your 18 instead of their 13 but we are going to need our 5th back or we are forced to deal with them. You got 30 minutes......

lol...this does make me wonder how much out and out lying goes on in these trade negotiations...I'm guessing not much since getting pegged as a dishonest broker can't help in the long run...

also, giving up a 1st and a 2nd in any one draft isn't likely to happen...starting in the third round in any draft is tough, especially when ou've given away next years first as well...I wonder if Washington was actually willing to do so, or if they basically had the same offer with a 5 slot advantage?

Karenin
04-06-2009, 11:00 AM
Wow, you came up with two first round WR's that actually were game changers. Kudos!

calvin johnson, torry holt, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, anthony gonzalez, santana moss, andre johnson, lee evans, roddy white...

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 11:04 AM
Taking another part of the King report, I'd have to say the speed of the trade was not due to McD's planning. It was more likely due to Bowlen saying, "That is the end of this mofo in Denver. I want him gone now. Do it!" Who knows, maybe Jay's dad brought in the playbook because Jay was told never to set foot in the facility again. Who knows?

Sure, Bowlen had seen enough. I don't know about the "dissing" part, Bowlen had probably seen enough to know the kid was gonna be a problem all year long. Being disruptive to team goals, formulating disputes where none were warranted, causing trouble in the lockerroom, so Bowlen made the decision we're gonna end this fast. I applaud that, it was a good decision. Better to get the great deal now, get the draft board set long before the draft, get the new player in to learn the O in minicamps and bond with his teammates.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 11:18 AM
You're absolutely right. Bowlen did win his pissing match but JC didn't lose because he got what he wanted. He doesn't have to play for a guy he doesn't trust and he gets to QB the team he grew up loving. Loser, the fans.....

I think the team did us fans a favor.

Anaximines
04-06-2009, 11:52 AM
article of the year

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't read that and see "Denver tried desperately to acquire Cassel" no matter how hard I try.

It doesn't say "desperately," that's your word.

YOU DON'T NEED AN ENGLISH DEGREE TO GET THIS!:

Peter King wrote the Broncos COULDN'T trade for Cassel. Which means they tried, but COULD not because of forces outside their control. If he had written WOULDN'T, that would mean they chose not to.

And King is not the only guy writing this, not by a longshot. We should really accept that Josh tried to trade Jay for Cassel, and move on. Its not a crime or a sin or anything.

outdoor_miner
04-06-2009, 12:06 PM
"Denver couldn't trade for Cassel in February ..."

It says they "COULDN'T," not "WOULDN'T" ... and that means they were NOT ABLE TO. Which assumes that they tried and/or wanted to trade him, but were blocked from doing so by forces outside their control.

McDaniels admitted that talks never got serious because they were pulled in so late to the conversation (the whole "late to the dance" comment that many folks here have mis-appropriated). So, they couldn't trade for him because they were pulled in so late and never were even seriously involved. The Broncos admitted that they considered the deal, but then the Chiefs/Patriots announced their deal, so nothing really came of it.

I just don't understand how the above means what you are saying. And I'm not a stupid person. Really.

Beantown Bronco
04-06-2009, 12:14 PM
You and Buff live in the same city now.....I think you two should hash it out over a couple of drinks.

baja
04-06-2009, 12:19 PM
It doesn't say "desperately," that's your word.

YOU DON'T NEED AN ENGLISH DEGREE TO GET THIS!:

Peter King wrote the Broncos COULDN'T trade for Cassel. Which means they tried, but COULD not because of forces outside their control. If he had written WOULDN'T, that would mean they chose not to.

And King is not the only guy writing this, not by a longshot. We should really accept that Josh tried to trade Jay for Cassel, and move on. Its not a crime or a sin or anything.

I will be disappointed in McD if this is the way it went down but I have no reason to disbelieve McD when he says they were listening to offers period.

You dissect the writer's words as he he has access to the gospel truth of what happened that day and he doesn't.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 12:23 PM
Hambone, let me introduce you to Crazyhorse, our resident Cheffie (and sometime troll). I got a good laugh out of you calling him a Denver homer. Good one. :thumbs:

Yah, that was pretty good. I didn't want to embarrass the lad, but since you have, !Booya! :spit:

RaiderH8r
04-06-2009, 12:31 PM
McDaniels admitted that talks never got serious because they were pulled in so late to the conversation (the whole "late to the dance" comment that many folks here have mis-appropriated). So, they couldn't trade for him because they were pulled in so late and never were even seriously involved. The Broncos admitted that they considered the deal, but then the Chiefs/Patriots announced their deal, so nothing really came of it.

I just don't understand how the above means what you are saying. And I'm not a stupid person. Really.

McKid was not "pulled" in late, he got in late. He, of his own admission, came "late to the dance". He got involved and tried to make himself relevant to the trade when it had already gone too far for McKid to get involved.

If this was just McKid "taking a call of interest" then he's an even bigger dumbass for letting a simple phone call spiral to this point.

Bowlen's also a dumbass for not taking this whole deal by the horns earlier. Either he knew about McKid's desire to move on the Cassell deal and then Bowlen watches McKid blow it gloriously which then precipitates a fall out with the current franchise QB and Bowlen continues to sit on his thumb allowing the dumbass who blew the whole thing in the first place to manage the problem. Or, Bowlen didn't know in which case why the hell did he fire Shanny if he isn't going to exercise his control as owner?

Lastly, Cutler is the 25 year old KID here. He's not the 32 year old head coach, the 37 year old GM, or the 65 year old owner. Why the hell is all about business when the adults in the room are telling the world their guy isn't worth a career backup but it's all about the team when the 25 year old kid takes a shot at his talent and contributions to heart? I guarantee if I walked up to Pat Bowlen and told him that this whole fiasco made him look like Al Davis he'd take that to heart.

gunns
04-06-2009, 12:31 PM
The second of whom (Fitzgerald) is often cited as Crabtree's best comp.

Every player could potentially be a bust. Crabtree has top 5 talent, if he's there at #12 its a massive steal.

The majority of first round WR are busts or have shown talentwise in the NFL they weren't worthy of the 1st round pick. Crabtree is projected to be as talented as Fitzgerald but would that be first round talent that the following were projected at:

Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Michael Jenkins, Rashaun Woods, Charles Rogers, Ashley Lelie, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Freddie Mitchell, Rod Gardner, David Boston, Troy Edwards, Marcus Nash, Reidel Anthony?

This does not include the guys that truly help their team but weren't worthy of being drafted in the first round.

calvin johnson, torry holt, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, anthony gonzalez, santana moss, andre johnson, lee evans, roddy white...

Only 3 of those, at this time, can be said to have been worthy of being taken in the first round, Holt, Harrison, Wayne. Johnson is obviously talented but will his talent be a game changer for his team and was it worth it for his team to pass him up for another player after how many failed attempts at WR in the first round? Like maybe a D player like Patrick Willis? Or get a WR in later rounds, such as Breaston or a Hines Ward?

RaiderH8r
04-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I will be disappointed in McD if this is the way it went down but I have no reason to disbelieve McD when he says they were listening to offers period.

You dissect the writer's words as he he has access to the gospel truth of what happened that day and he doesn't.

This would disappoint you more than if McKid took a phone call and managed to blow it so badly that the franchise QB ended up out of town? Really? Our new head coach can't take a phone call without f'ing the situation up more gloriously than anything in franchise history. What's he do for an encore? Piss on Elway's jersey during a press conference talking about The Patriot Way?

outdoor_miner
04-06-2009, 12:35 PM
It doesn't say "desperately," that's your word.

YOU DON'T NEED AN ENGLISH DEGREE TO GET THIS!:

Peter King wrote the Broncos COULDN'T trade for Cassel. Which means they tried, but COULD not because of forces outside their control. If he had written WOULDN'T, that would mean they chose not to.

And King is not the only guy writing this, not by a longshot. We should really accept that Josh tried to trade Jay for Cassel, and move on. Its not a crime or a sin or anything.

Man... This is tedious. However, to close the book:

1. I added "desperately", but you added "tried" when you said: "Which means they tried, but COULD not because of forces outside their control..." Adding "tried" is your interpretation of King's quote. Semantically, there are lots of reasons why they "couldn't", one of which being that they were too late to the talks to even be a factor. They were too late, so they couldn't trade for him, even if they were interested (note: interest does not mean they would definitely do it; just that they would ponder the deal, which they admitted). I think you are over-stating Denver's level of effort. However, maybe you are right and I am wrong.
2. You are right that it is unimportant. I think I am going to stop arguing this. :)

Kaylore
04-06-2009, 12:36 PM
It doesn't say "desperately," that's your word.

YOU DON'T NEED AN ENGLISH DEGREE TO GET THIS!:

Peter King wrote the Broncos COULDN'T trade for Cassel. Which means they tried, but COULD not because of forces outside their control. If he had written WOULDN'T, that would mean they chose not to.

That's not what it means at all. It means they couldn't. Which means they weren't able to through some restriction. It could mean their own restrictions, IE they "just couldn't" bring themselves to do it. It could mean they weren't able to because they were late to the discussion. It could mean a lot of things. That one sentence doesn't unequivocally prove that Cutler was "actively" shopped at all.

What I took away from this was that Cutler wanted out and manufactured a reason to leave. I say again, and have since this started, the GM has every right to entertain trading any player for anything they please. That's their job. I don't get why in baseball when trade talks (or even trades) come up ALL the time, that the players don't pout like this. The reason? Cutler's feelings really weren't that hurt. He just wanted to leave but didn't want to look bad doing it because he's a p***Y. A p***Y has his dad hand in his playbook. I mean the fact he didn't have it with him at all shows just how much of joke this was. He didn't want to play for McDaniels. What did he say "he was planning on attending camp" or something?" Without a play book? What a joke this guy is.

I agree with Rohirrim that this was forced through by Bowlen. Bowlen got pissed off, and so McDaniels found the best QB of the group that he could work with and traded with the team that QB was on. I think McDaniels really felt he could fix it and Bowlen was done. Sand Clough said as much on the air a week ago. Something to the effect of "McDaniels is Cutler's only advocate left in Dove Valley."

And Crazyhorse is right. Just like Javon Walker, all this experience has done is shown Cutler he can whine his way off of any team and get a new contract. I have little doubt once things get rough in Chicago he'll repeat the same behavior.

baja
04-06-2009, 12:38 PM
McKid was not "pulled" in late, he got in late. He, of his own admission, came "late to the dance". He got involved and tried to make himself relevant to the trade when it had already gone too far for McKid to get involved.

If this was just McKid "taking a call of interest" then he's an even bigger dumbass for letting a simple phone call spiral to this point.

Bowlen's also a dumbass for not taking this whole deal by the horns earlier. Either he knew about McKid's desire to move on the Cassell deal and then Bowlen watches McKid blow it gloriously which then precipitates a fall out with the current franchise QB and Bowlen continues to sit on his thumb allowing the dumbass who blew the whole thing in the first place to manage the problem. Or, Bowlen didn't know in which case why the hell did he fire Shanny if he isn't going to exercise his control as owner?

Lastly, Cutler is the 25 year old KID here. He's not the 32 year old head coach, the 37 year old GM, or the 65 year old owner. Why the hell is all about business when the adults in the room are telling the world their guy isn't worth a career backup but it's all about the team when the 25 year old kid takes a shot at his talent and contributions to heart? I guarantee if I walked up to Pat Bowlen and told him that this whole fiasco made him look like Al Davis he'd take that to heart.

You want to know where your argument falls apart? From the beginning, even if McD was actively seeking a trade that is not a good enough reason for Jay to behave as he did. What Cutler showed to us all is he is too arrogant and thin skinned to be a leader of an NFL team and he is better off gone to trouble some other franchise which, in time, he will.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-06-2009, 12:38 PM
That's not what it means at all. It means they couldn't. Which means they weren't able to through some restriction. It could mean their own restrictions, IE they "just couldn't" bring themselves to do it. It could mean they weren't able to because they were late to the discussion. It could mean a lot of things. That one sentence doesn't unequivocally prove that Cutler was "actively" shopped at all.

What I took away from this was that Cutler wanted out and manufactured a reason to leave. I say again, and have since this started, the GM has every right to entertain trading any player for anything they please. That's their job. I don't get why in baseball when trade talks (or even trades) come up ALL the time, that the players don't pout like this. The reason? Cutler's feelings really weren't that hurt. He just wanted to leave but didn't want to look bad doing it because he's a p***Y. A p***Y has his dad hand in his playbook. I mean the fact he didn't have it with him at all shows just how much of joke this was. He didn't want to play for McDaniels.

I agree with Rohirrim that this was forced through by Bowlen. Bowlen got pissed off, and so McDaniels found the best QB of the group that he could work with and traded with the team that QB was on.

And Crazyhorse is right. Just like Javon Walker, all this experience has done is shown Cutler he can whine his way off of any team and get a new contract. I have little doubt once things get rough in Chicago he'll repeat the same behavior.


But but but....Cutler is from a "solid midwestern background!"

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 12:41 PM
You don't see any arrogance on Pat Bowlen and McDaniels side of the fence?

No, just plain good sense. They put pressure on the kid, the kid couldn't deal with the pressure, they got a good deal for the kid.

OABB
04-06-2009, 12:50 PM
I think we should have an omane weekend during the offseason where we drink and scream and bicker like woman, beat this ****ing horse into the ground and than hug and never ever ever ever talk about the Cassel trade again. please.

baja
04-06-2009, 12:50 PM
This would disappoint you more than if McKid took a phone call and managed to blow it so badly that the franchise QB ended up out of town? Really? Our new head coach can't take a phone call without f'ing the situation up more gloriously than anything in franchise history. What's he do for an encore? Piss on Elway's jersey during a press conference talking about The Patriot Way?

What you and those joining you in this position are missing is what if (given the info seems very likely) Bus & Quitler used this non issue as a platform to get out of Denver.

I think Jay did not like the idea of being a piece of the wheel of McD's "team First" concept, he wanted to be the "gunslinger saviour". This was about Jay's ego not a new contract.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 12:50 PM
(a piss poor boss=arrogance) Just because you're in charge doesn't mean you have to prove who can piss further. Good leadership breads good leadership. One can teach humility with power but it tends to create a negative effect in the long term.

Yah, well, Cutler wanted a ticket out of town, I think, so they gave it to him. Bowlen made the right decision. Cutler may have come back with a lot of butt-kissing, but I don't think there was a lot of people that wanted him back, and certainly weren't gonna kiss his ass to get him back. And I think that was the right decision. I think Cutler was determined to be a pain in the ass all year long. So get rid of him fast, get some picks, get a a good starter and move on. Good decision I think.

Popps
04-06-2009, 12:53 PM
Yea, Buff... this article didn't exactly break new ground saying we considered a trade for Cassel. I'm not sure why you're flipping out as if one benign sentence from King vindicates some sort of anti-Bronocos front office argument.

Yea, we got involved in some trade talks. Shocking. Who knew!?

Kaylore
04-06-2009, 12:56 PM
What you and those joining you in this position are missing is what if (given the info seems very likely) Bus & Quitler used this non issue as a platform to get out of Denver.

I think Jay did not like the idea of being a piece of the wheel of McD's "team First" concept, he wanted to be the "gunslinger saviour". This was about Jay's ego not a new contract.

You're wasting your time. People like him really believe that McDaniels did something the make Cutler act this way. They don't think Cutler had any control over this and believe there is some "way" that McDaniels is that just makes Cutler upset. In their eyes Cutler is a robot and reacts negatively to McDaniels no matter what he says or does. They probably imagine him cussing him out or acting like a tough guy. It doesn't matter. In their mind he is totally responsible for Cutler's actions. They are suspicious of McDaniels because he coached on the Patriots and/or he isn't Mike Shanahan. They honestly believe that McDaniels made Cutler feel that way and forced him to choose to ask for a trade.

A belief like that is so incredibly ridiculous that you just have to take a step back and realize they're not being rational at all and so you can't say anything to change their mind.

Popps
04-06-2009, 01:13 PM
You're wasting your time. People like him really believe that McDaniels did something the make Cutler act this way. They don't think Cutler had any control over this and believe there is some "way" that McDaniels is that just makes Cutler upset. In their eyes Cutler is a robot and reacts negatively to McDaniels no matter what he says or does.

Pretty interesting way of putting it.

I've questioned that for a while... as in, even if Cutler was "wronged" in some way, why does everyone write the guy a free pass for not getting over it? It's understandable that Cutler could have been put off. No one begrudges him for having a reaction, but at what point does a guy have to get over hurt feelings and do his ****ing job? It's just fascinating that not only do some people write him an unlimited free pass for this behavior, but furthermore... want someone like this on their team. It's ridiculous.



I want to root for a pouty, malcontent. YAAAAAAAAY!!!

Beantown Bronco
04-06-2009, 01:15 PM
The majority of first round WR are busts or have shown talentwise in the NFL they weren't worthy of the 1st round pick.

In reality, this can definitely be argued for just about any position. Offensive line, defensive line, running back, TE, QB......all have their share of first round busts.

WR has just had so many high profile busts that they get the label more than others, but I think if you really look at it and analyze it, there are just about the same percentage of busts across the board.

Rock Chalk
04-06-2009, 01:16 PM
Here is yet another guy - in Peter King a very authoritative guy - who's reporting as an established fact that Denver actively tried to trade Jay. I hope we can put that issue to bed now forever, for the historical record. Popps? NewRohirrim?

No where in that quote did it say Denver was actively looking to trade Cutler.

In that quote that YOU quoted, you could surmise that there was a trade but you cannot use any sense of reasonable logic to deduce that Denver actively started the trade or that Denver just replied to queries.

So that issue REMAINS up in the air. Moron.

BMarsh615
04-06-2009, 01:16 PM
Awww how cute. McKid was trying to play hardball:spit:

Man-Goblin
04-06-2009, 01:17 PM
Redicules.

jutang
04-06-2009, 01:21 PM
I thought this time line did a great job of highlighting the Cutler-Broncos divorce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12074331

Really once Shanahan, Bates, and Goodman were all let go, Cutler had no personal ties to the FO anymore. Cutler's effort to try and retain Bates failed and he's doesn't hit it off with McD. So he essentially doesn't like the new regime and forces his way off the team. The attempted trade for Cassell, gave Cutler and Cook all the ammo they needed.

baja
04-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Redicules.

Can't you spell ridiculous, zilly?

Traveler
04-06-2009, 01:30 PM
I thought this time line did a great job of highlighting the Cutler-Broncos divorce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12074331

Really once Shanahan, Bates, and Goodman were all let go, Cutler had no personal ties to the FO anymore. Cutler's effort to try and retain Bates failed and he's doesn't hit it off with McD. So he essentially doesn't like the new regime and forces his way off the team. The attempted trade for Cassell, gave Cutler and Cook all the ammo they needed.

So, by this interpretation, Cutler said FU to all his team mates.

Spider
04-06-2009, 01:32 PM
But but but....Cutler is from a "solid midwestern background!"

ROFL!

jutang
04-06-2009, 01:44 PM
So, by this interpretation, Cutler said FU to all his team mates.

Up to a certain point. I look at it the same way anyone changes jobs. You like your co-workers, but in the end if you don't think the organization is going anywhere and your own job security is questionable then it's time to move on. Granted, team sports is probably a lot more close knit than the average job, but the fundamentals are the same. But as everyone says, the NFL is a business... except to us fans. :yayaya:

lex
04-06-2009, 01:57 PM
You want to know where your argument falls apart? From the beginning, even if McD was actively seeking a trade that is not a good enough reason for Jay to behave as he did. What Cutler showed to us all is he is too arrogant and thin skinned to be a leader of an NFL team and he is better off gone to trouble some other franchise which, in time, he will.

His argument doesnt really fall apart at all. McDaniels rolled the dice and lost. He ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. He took a chance that Cutler wouldnt, in turn, stick it to McDaniels. Jay had more leverage than many want to admit--obviously.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:00 PM
That's not what it means at all. It means they couldn't. Which means they weren't able to through some restriction. It could mean their own restrictions, IE they "just couldn't" bring themselves to do it. It could mean they weren't able to because they were late to the discussion. It could mean a lot of things. That one sentence doesn't unequivocally prove that Cutler was "actively" shopped at all.

What I took away from this was that Cutler wanted out and manufactured a reason to leave. I say again, and have since this started, the GM has every right to entertain trading any player for anything they please. That's their job. I don't get why in baseball when trade talks (or even trades) come up ALL the time, that the players don't pout like this. The reason? Cutler's feelings really weren't that hurt. He just wanted to leave but didn't want to look bad doing it because he's a p***Y. A p***Y has his dad hand in his playbook. I mean the fact he didn't have it with him at all shows just how much of joke this was. He didn't want to play for McDaniels. What did he say "he was planning on attending camp" or something?" Without a play book? What a joke this guy is.

I agree with Rohirrim that this was forced through by Bowlen. Bowlen got pissed off, and so McDaniels found the best QB of the group that he could work with and traded with the team that QB was on. I think McDaniels really felt he could fix it and Bowlen was done. Sand Clough said as much on the air a week ago. Something to the effect of "McDaniels is Cutler's only advocate left in Dove Valley."

And Crazyhorse is right. Just like Javon Walker, all this experience has done is shown Cutler he can whine his way off of any team and get a new contract. I have little doubt once things get rough in Chicago he'll repeat the same behavior.

I agree with pretty much everything you say here ... and you're actually agreeing with me, though apparently you don't realize it. The only addition you make is an interpretation of "couldn't" to be "they COULDN'T bring themselves to trade," that's valid ... it's funny, but semantically valid. :~ohyah!:

And of COURSE the team has every right and obligation to entertain anythiong they're presented with, I never argued otherwise. My problems were: 1) it looks to me and most commentators like Josh failed to inform Jay about the talks. and 2) Josh might've actually lied to Jay when he was confronted.

I believe these 2 things are both true because:

1) Josh is 32 and has never made a trade or dealt with an agent before
2) Although tenuous, as OC he was the main cog in the Patriots video scandal, that allegedly gave opponents' defensive signals to the Pats offensive play-callers. You can deny this happened, but I trust Goodell. A $500,000 personal fine means there was fire, not just smoke, and as the OC/play-caller, Josh must have been engulfed in those flames.




Rock Chalk is wrong ... "COULDN'T" means by definition that they efforted to some degree, but were barred by forces outside their control (or in Khan's opinion, they "couldn't" bring themselves to trade him). That's just what couldn't means, Alec.


outdoor miner is right ... I'm not arguing about this anymore.

Rohirrim is right ... Bowlen got ticked and puled the plug when Cutler ignored his calls.

Popps is even right ... Cutler should not get a free pass for his overreaction, and I sure as heck never gave him one ... I've called him a baby so often I wrote a macro to save time typing that phrase.

lex
04-06-2009, 02:01 PM
So, by this interpretation, Cutler said FU to all his team mates.


He didnt say that at all. Cutler felt he had to look out for himself and to that extent treated it like a business. If one of Cutlers teammates holds out, chances are it wont be perceived as a betrayal of the team. The players have to say the right things now because they have to work with McDaniels. No one wants to live in misery. Some deal with it by contorting what they believe and others use leverage if they have it.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:01 PM
ROLL CALL!

Who's sick to death of me?


STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Haha, the frumpy chick just got the john door slammed in her face.

Someone is taking a shower...4 or 5 minutes.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 02:08 PM
That sentence doesn't mean that at all. Uhh Esp. since it's in the negative.

BTW: is there an ignore feature, I'd like to start ignoring the Cutler apologists.

WAAAAAAH!!!!! I can't take hearing opinions to the contrary, I need mommy's skirt to hide behind!

No matter how much I disagree with some on here, I would never put anyone on ignore for any reason, you have to be such a little susie to ignore typed words.

Ignore me you p***Y, you do not deserve to hear my thoughts

OABB
04-06-2009, 02:08 PM
ROLL CALL!

Who's sick to death of me?


STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!

Me.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 02:09 PM
Haha, the frumpy chick just got the john door slammed in her face.

Someone is taking a shower...4 or 5 minutes.

Wrong thread...this was supposed to go in the presser thread. Sorry.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 02:58 PM
ROLL CALL!

Who's sick to death of me?


STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!

No, no keep it up. Your sophistry is irritating, yet intriguing. I'm sure people can learn from you. You're a good contributor for the next generation of sophists.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:58 PM
I just don't understand how the above means what you are saying. And I'm not a stupid person. Really.

No way I meant that, no way. I guess I've been guilty of responding to anyone who disagrees with me (even slightly) as if they're all on the outer fringe of the argument. You definitely are not, in fact imo you're of the better new posters here. But I am really torn up over losing Cutler ... to me personally, this feels like after one of the Super Bowl losses. I thought and still think he will soon be the best QB in the league, and we will regret this forever.

But I also must admit, the ending to this is 100% Jay's fault. He stayed away, he made his point, and then - and this is important - Bowlen and McD went to the owners meeting and REFUSED TO DISCUSS A TRADE WITH ANYBODY. That was a major conciliatory gesture toward Jay ... every owner, coach and GM in the room, and you clam up and refuse to discuss it. That was the last best cover Jay could've used to say, "I guess they want me, I'm coming back." Instead, he ignored several of Pat's phone calls, and that was that.

*SIGH*

Hulamau
04-06-2009, 03:21 PM
Not so sure the Broncos could have waited till the draft. The longer the situation festered the clearer it became. IMO Cutler is a cancer and acts like a locker room b****er. The more he spoke the more it was becoming evident what he was all about. Given enough time, Chicago, Tampa or Washington may have seen enough to cool on the idea.

As much as it pains me to say so, McD and Bowlen, IMO was on the right track from day one. You just dumped Jeff George for a boat laod of draft picks.

Congrats.

In the end Cutlers temper paid off as far as he's concerned. Which means he will continue to think he's above the team and can throw a fit to get what he wants. The Bears have acted as an enabler in this mess. So dont be surprized if Cutler turns into the next TO. TO did the same thing in SF. It even got the head coach fired. Since then, he has been a train wreck for every team he's been on. Great talent, but his own equalizer.

True enough Crazyhorse

rastaman
04-06-2009, 03:27 PM
I couldn't agree more. Especially about the draft. McD has never run his own draft or had the final say. Sad thing is, he could be gone before we know whether he's any good at it or not.....

Perhaps McD....will call Bellacheat on the phone for advice on draft day before pulling the trigger.

tsiguy96
04-06-2009, 03:28 PM
its so funny that we are all seeing what other AFCW fans have been saying to us since day one.

baja
04-06-2009, 03:32 PM
His argument doesnt really fall apart at all. McDaniels rolled the dice and lost. He ended up with neither Cutler or Cassel. He took a chance that Cutler wouldnt, in turn, stick it to McDaniels. Jay had more leverage than many want to admit--obviously.

Would you rather have a HC that asks who is calling and refuse the call if it is about a trade for fear the player will be offended and refuse to play or even talk to the owner? Jay used a standard procedure event of any HC as an excuse to get traded.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:00 PM
Would you rather have a HC that asks who is calling and refuse the call if it is about a trade for fear the player will be offended and refuse to play or even talk to the owner? Jay used a standard procedure event of any HC as an excuse to get traded.

in this case, I would hope the HC was smart enough to say 'thanks but no thanks' when it comes to the future of your franchise and the best young QB in the game, with a $1mil contract, and a tendency to hold grudges, for fear of it leaking out and having the disaster that unfolded take place

outdoor_miner
04-06-2009, 04:07 PM
No way I meant that, no way. I guess I've been guilty of responding to anyone who disagrees with me (even slightly) as if they're all on the outer fringe of the argument. You definitely are not, in fact imo you're of the better new posters here. But I am really torn up over losing Cutler ... to me personally, this feels like after one of the Super Bowl losses. I thought and still think he will soon be the best QB in the league, and we will regret this forever.

But I also must admit, the ending to this is 100% Jay's fault. He stayed away, he made his point, and then - and this is important - Bowlen and McD went to the owners meeting and REFUSED TO DISCUSS A TRADE WITH ANYBODY. That was a major conciliatory gesture toward Jay ... every owner, coach and GM in the room, and you clam up and refuse to discuss it. That was the last best cover Jay could've used to say, "I guess they want me, I'm coming back." Instead, he ignored several of Pat's phone calls, and that was that.

*SIGH*

I didn't mean the "stupid" comment as if you were calling me stupid or attacking me (I think you've represented your viewpoint passionately without attacking or demeaning others' opinions much better than most on here - that goes for both sides of the argument). I just meant that I was trying hard to see where you were coming from and couldn't... and that I felt a little dumb about it. As in: "I'm not stupid, am I?" :)

I agree with you completely on being torn up on losing Cutler. I have been so disappointed by this whole thing. For the past 3 years, pretty much all my Broncos-related hopes have hinged on him... Ever since he came out in his first preseason game in 2006 and just stood tall in the pocket and delivered rockets to his receivers. He just looked like something special. I told everyone I knew that this guy was going to turn the Broncos into a perennial contender a la Manning and Brady. To have it go down in flames so quickly is a punch to the gut, and was so disappointing that it literally affected other parts of my life (distracted at work, short-tempered at home, etc - pathetic, I know).

I think I started defending the Broncos brass in this because I refuse to believe that they are total incompetents. I do not believe that someone would be as stupid as many have painted McDaniels to be (especially considering the intelligence and vision it takes for a 32 year old to become head coach of a franchise like the Broncos). Something wasn't adding up in the way things were occurring and being reported, and to me it became clear that Cutler's side was driving it. It makes no sense for the Broncos to create discord. If they wanted to trade Cutler, they were only driving his value down by bad-mouthing him. If they wanted to keep him, they were just alienating him further. It was lose-lose. Again, this is "Pro Sports 101", and something that only a total idiot would do. So, it only made logical sense that the Broncos were being manipulated, and I believe it was probably Cook that was driving it. I maintained a belief until the day of the trade that it would all work out, and that everyone would be laughing about it this time next year.

I have never been a Cutler "basher" through this whole thing up until he was finally traded. Part of that is a way to refocus and renew my hope in the team (he wasn't as good as we all thought and we're gonna be better without him), part of it was his treatment of Bowlen (show some friggin respect for the "real world" you entitled prick), and part of it is fallout from his first interview as a Bear. His NFL Network interview reminded me so much of Mark McGwire in front of Congress. "I just want to look forward... I'm sure there's some things both sides would have done differently... I don't want to get into specifics."

Meanwhile, McDaniels and Bowlen have been totally straight-forward in their answers ever since things really blew up (they clearly tried to "Patriotize" the initial reports by not co-operating with the media). They have said the same story over and over again. They have gone on the record saying that they tried to call Cutler, that they never presented a serious offer to Bowlen, that they wanted Jay to be their qb, etc. Heck, McDaniels even said in his presser on Friday that they contacted Jay on the day the whole thing started.

Meanwhile, Cutler says nothing when he finally gets the chance. If the Broncos were spreading lies about you, wouldn't you go on the record to refute those lies? Wouldn't you be angry when it was all over? Wouldn't you say, "they never f$%^ing called me, those pricks. I waited by the phone, and it never rang... They never called me... They are liars." I think just about anyone would do that - unless that person was actually lying. The Broncos were clearly angry by the end. Jay was not. This was the final confirmation for me that he's a lying, entitled jackass.

Anyway, rambling aside, I am right there with you on being broken up on this. I still can't believe what happened to our team, and how it has been completely changed in a month. I really, really hope Cutler fails, because I do not want to live with the prospect of losing a true franchise qb. Like you said, I would regret that forever...

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 04:14 PM
in this case, I would hope the HC was smart enough to say 'thanks but no thanks' when it comes to the future of your franchise and the best young QB in the game, with a $1mil contract, and a tendency to hold grudges, for fear of it leaking out and having the disaster that unfolded take place

Well, these are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver "the best young QB in the game, with a $1mil contract, and a tendency to hold grudges, for fear of it leaking out" Cutler's.

I'm fine with dumping Jay. These are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver Cutler's, not the Denver Shanahan's, not the Denver Cutahan's, not the Denver ShanaCut's, these are the Denver Broncos.

colonelbeef
04-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Well, these are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver "the best young QB in the game, with a $1mil contract, and a tendency to hold grudges, for fear of it leaking out" Cutler's.

I'm fine with dumping Jay. These are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver Cutler's, not the Denver Shanahan's, not the Denver Cutahan's, not the Denver ShanaCut's, these are the Denver Broncos.

QB's are important, and no matter what McDaniels says, you can't turn **** into filet.

rastaman
04-06-2009, 04:21 PM
What you and those joining you in this position are missing is what if (given the info seems very likely) Bus & Quitler used this non issue as a platform to get out of Denver.

I think Jay did not like the idea of being a piece of the wheel of McD's "team First" concept, he wanted to be the "gunslinger saviour". This was about Jay's ego not a new contract.

Baja.......the days of the owner and the HC doing no wrong and all knowing are over! Whereas the owners, FO, and HC have the right to say yea or naye whether players will remain on a team......players are well w/i their rights to seek employment with other teams should they decide to go in another direction. The team does not have the final say anymore.

As far as Bowlen becoming pissed off or feeling insulted Cutler would not return his calls! Bowlen either authorized McDaniel's to shop his Franchise QB around for a trade.....or he foolishly waited to long to get involved with letting Cutler know whether he had a future as a Bronco. In fact Bowlen should have been on the phone 24-48 hours calling Cutler; not waiting 3 weeks later!

Another point, Bowlen can't have his cake and eat it too just b/c he's the owner! On the one hand he can't say McD has the final decision and he trust McD.....then get pissed off at Cutler for not returning his calls. I mean think about it why should Cutler return his calls when he has already decided with the McD and more than likely gave McD the green light to entertain trading Cutler in the first dam place.

So why bother wasting time with phone calls? Had Bowlen been smart (which he isn't) Bowlen should have called a news conference w/i 48 hrs after trying to trade Cutler became national news; and simply say Cutler is my FRANCHISE QB for the foreseeable future while continuing to stand behind McDaniel's as well.

Players in the NFL don't like being treated as a piece of meat or entertainment clowns for some "Roman Coliseum" Fans of the NFL. In the end, Bowlen the Billionaire exerted his power by trading Cutler. And Cutler exerted his power of leverage, youth, and talent, and both walked away getting what they wanted.

This is destiny folks..........Destiny has proven Bowlen and Cutler were not supposed to have the same relationship-trust and integrity Bowlen and Elway had. Destiny has also proven that McDaniel's and Cutler would not have the career-long term relationship the Shanahan and Elway had.

NOTHING IS GUARANTEED IN THE NFL....hence the NFL stands for NOT FOR LONG (Unless you are an owner).:wiggle:

rastaman
04-06-2009, 04:23 PM
Well, these are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver "the best young QB in the game, with a $1mil contract, and a tendency to hold grudges, for fear of it leaking out" Cutler's.

I'm fine with dumping Jay. These are the Denver Broncos, not the Denver Cutler's, not the Denver Shanahan's, not the Denver Cutahan's, not the Denver ShanaCut's, these are the Denver Broncos.

By the time McDufus is done, the Denver Broncos will be known as the Denver Patriots!ROFL!

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 04:26 PM
By the time McDufus is done, the Denver Broncos will be known as the Denver Patriots!ROFL!

Hopefully that will include a couple Superbowls like they won.

No doubt Mcdaniels will use the things he was taught by Billicheck. Just like when I go on stage and blow my saxophone I lean on things I was taught by my teacher.

Hell didn't you ever see Karate Kid? It's all about respect for the teacher.

Copying a formula of success isn't stupid, it's smart.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of what patriots preach on the Broncos.

No player more important then any other, all haivng one goal, team victories!!!

AbileneBroncoFan
04-06-2009, 04:27 PM
This article excites me. We are now doing business like the New England Patriots, Indianapolis Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. No one is above the team, you damn well will respect the team and work your ass off for the team, or you are gone, period. My favorite part of the article was where he said that despite the trade talks, McDaniels and his staff carried out their daily routines. This tells me they don't panic when something unforseen comes up, and they take care of team business. As much as I admire Jay as a player, he dropped the ball here. Say what you want about McDaniels (yes, I know as well as everyone on this board he shouldn't have been in trade talks for Matt Cassel), but when it comes down to it, he was at team HQ doing his job and working to improve this team, and Jay Cutler was at a UFC event doing nothing to improve the situation. Do not give me the bs that he didn't want this to happen or was forced to demand a trade: he put his house up for sale weeks ago. You don't do that if you aren't serious and trying to send a message. I have to seriously question his intelligence and his attitude if he doesn't think things will go well with a bright young coach and the best young offense in the league and would rather be in Chicago. If you were a QB, where would you rather be: with the coach who you may not be best friends with, but who coached the number 1 passing offense of all time 2 years ago and throwing passes to Brandon Marshall, or in Chicago who hasn't had star QB play in decades, has a piss poor offensive line, throwing passes to Brandon Lloyd? Not a tough decision. He is an irreplacable talent, but has an easily replacable attitude.

Also, despite the fact that Jay has more physical talent than any of them, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger have many things in common: rings, wins, and the fact that they don't put the team over themselves, ignore the team management, or make demands of the team. I can assure you if Peyton Manning doesn't get along with the new coach like he did with Dungy, you or I will not hear a word about it. He will still show up to work everyday, work harder than every QB on the planet, throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs, and make a run at another Super Bowl. If there is one characteristic I despise in QBs, it is unprofessionalism (see Tony Romo), and Cutler seriously let me down there. That being said, I still enjoy watching him play, and hope he does well (after this year of course--I want a top 10 pick from them). But to anyone on here who wants McDaniels fired, ask yourself if Mike Tomlin or Bill Belichick would dick around with their QB if he didn't show up to team functions, demanded a trade, or ignored calls from the team? I assure you they would not. We should not either.

rastaman
04-06-2009, 04:35 PM
I didn't mean the "stupid" comment as if you were calling me stupid or attacking me (I think you've represented your viewpoint passionately without attacking or demeaning others' opinions much better than most on here - that goes for both sides of the argument). I just meant that I was trying hard to see where you were coming from and couldn't... and that I felt a little dumb about it. As in: "I'm not stupid, am I?" :)

I agree with you completely on being torn up on losing Cutler. I have been so disappointed by this whole thing. For the past 3 years, pretty much all my Broncos-related hopes have hinged on him... Ever since he came out in his first preseason game in 2006 and just stood tall in the pocket and delivered rockets to his receivers. He just looked like something special. I told everyone I knew that this guy was going to turn the Broncos into a perennial contender a la Manning and Brady. To have it go down in flames so quickly is a punch to the gut, and was so disappointing that it literally affected other parts of my life (distracted at work, short-tempered at home, etc - pathetic, I know).

I think I started defending the Broncos brass in this because I refuse to believe that they are total incompetents. I do not believe that someone would be as stupid as many have painted McDaniels to be (especially considering the intelligence and vision it takes for a 32 year old to become head coach of a franchise like the Broncos). Something wasn't adding up in the way things were occurring and being reported, and to me it became clear that Cutler's side was driving it. It makes no sense for the Broncos to create discord. If they wanted to trade Cutler, they were only driving his value down by bad-mouthing him. If they wanted to keep him, they were just alienating him further. It was lose-lose. Again, this is "Pro Sports 101", and something that only a total idiot would do. So, it only made logical sense that the Broncos were being manipulated, and I believe it was probably Cook that was driving it. I maintained a belief until the day of the trade that it would all work out, and that everyone would be laughing about it this time next year.

I have never been a Cutler "basher" through this whole thing up until he was finally traded. Part of that is a way to refocus and renew my hope in the team (he wasn't as good as we all thought and we're gonna be better without him), part of it was his treatment of Bowlen (show some friggin respect for the "real world" you entitled prick), and part of it is fallout from his first interview as a Bear. His NFL Network interview reminded me so much of Mark McGwire in front of Congress. "I just want to look forward... I'm sure there's some things both sides would have done differently... I don't want to get into specifics."

Meanwhile, McDaniels and Bowlen have been totally straight-forward in their answers ever since things really blew up (they clearly tried to "Patriotize" the initial reports by not co-operating with the media). They have said the same story over and over again. They have gone on the record saying that they tried to call Cutler, that they never presented a serious offer to Bowlen, that they wanted Jay to be their qb, etc. Heck, McDaniels even said in his presser on Friday that they contacted Jay on the day the whole thing started.

Meanwhile, Cutler says nothing when he finally gets the chance. If the Broncos were spreading lies about you, wouldn't you go on the record to refute those lies? Wouldn't you be angry when it was all over? Wouldn't you say, "they never f$%^ing called me, those pricks. I waited by the phone, and it never rang... They never called me... They are liars." I think just about anyone would do that - unless that person was actually lying. The Broncos were clearly angry by the end. Jay was not. This was the final confirmation for me that he's a lying, entitled jackass.

Anyway, rambling aside, I am right there with you on being broken up on this. I still can't believe what happened to our team, and how it has been completely changed in a month. I really, really hope Cutler fails, because I do not want to live with the prospect of losing a true franchise qb. Like you said, I would regret that forever...

Great unbiased post! I have come to the conclusion McDaniels plans to blowup this current team. Meaning the players Shanny drafted btwn 2006 and 2008 will probably begone in the next 18 months b/c these players may not fit the mould/talent of what McDaniels wants. McDaniels hasn't told the fans yet.....but he's put Denver on a 3 or 4 year rebuilding project to rebuild the Broncos in his image. Thats McD's perogative and he'll have Bowlens' blessing. Fans just need to get ready to buy new Jersey's---That's all.

lex
04-06-2009, 04:37 PM
Would you rather have a HC that asks who is calling and refuse the call if it is about a trade for fear the player will be offended and refuse to play or even talk to the owner? Jay used a standard procedure event of any HC as an excuse to get traded.

My biggest grievance is against Bowlen. I would have preferred that Josh was not in a position to say yes or no. Bowlen lied about not having a coach/gm again and this is what he gets.

baja
04-06-2009, 04:49 PM
This article excites me. We are now doing business like the New England Patriots, Indianapolis Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. No one is above the team, you damn well will respect the team and work your ass off for the team, or you are gone, period. My favorite part of the article was where he said that despite the trade talks, McDaniels and his staff carried out their daily routines. This tells me they don't panic when something unforseen comes up, and they take care of team business. As much as I admire Jay as a player, he dropped the ball here. Say what you want about McDaniels (yes, I know as well as everyone on this board he shouldn't have been in trade talks for Matt Cassel), but when it comes down to it, he was at team HQ doing his job and working to improve this team, and Jay Cutler was at a UFC event doing nothing to improve the situation. Do not give me the bs that he didn't want this to happen or was forced to demand a trade: he put his house up for sale weeks ago. You don't do that if you aren't serious and trying to send a message. I have to seriously question his intelligence and his attitude if he doesn't think things will go well with a bright young coach and the best young offense in the league and would rather be in Chicago. If you were a QB, where would you rather be: with the coach who you may not be best friends with, but who coached the number 1 passing offense of all time 2 years ago and throwing passes to Brandon Marshall, or in Chicago who hasn't had star QB play in decades, has a piss poor offensive line, throwing passes to Brandon Lloyd? Not a tough decision. He is an irreplacable talent, but has an easily replacable attitude.

Also, despite the fact that Jay has more physical talent than any of them, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger have many things in common: rings, wins, and the fact that they don't put the team over themselves, ignore the team management, or make demands of the team. I can assure you if Peyton Manning doesn't get along with the new coach like he did with Dungy, you or I will not hear a word about it. He will still show up to work everyday, work harder than every QB on the planet, throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs, and make a run at another Super Bowl. If there is one characteristic I despise in QBs, it is unprofessionalism (see Tony Romo), and Cutler seriously let me down there. That being said, I still enjoy watching him play, and hope he does well (after this year of course--I want a top 10 pick from them). But to anyone on here who wants McDaniels fired, ask yourself if Mike Tomlin or Bill Belichick would dick around with their QB if he didn't show up to team functions, demanded a trade, or ignored calls from the team? I assure you they would not. We should not either.

One other point to add to this, Cutler's maneuvering to move on for what ever reason shows his level of commitment (lack of) to his fellow players. His very actions demonstrate the fact that he does not get the team concept or does and wants no part of it, either way I'm glad he gone and we got maximum value to boot. Hooray!

baja
04-06-2009, 04:52 PM
My biggest grievance is against Bowlen. I would have preferred that Josh was not in a position to say yes or no. <b> Bowlen lied about not having a coach/gm again and this is what he gets.

See this is another leap of faith you guys are taking. McDaniels said more than once, "The trade was going no where, it was not even far along enough to be presented to Pat (Bowlen)."

rastaman
04-06-2009, 04:53 PM
Hopefully that will include a couple Superbowls like they won.

No doubt Mcdaniels will use the things he was taught by Billicheck. Just like when I go on stage and blow my saxophone I lean on things I was taught by my teacher.

Hell didn't you ever see Karate Kid? It's all about respect for the teacher.

Copying a formula of success isn't stupid, it's smart.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of what patriots preach on the Broncos.

No player more important then any other, all haivng one goal, team victories!!!

Good points, however what makes you think McDaniels as first time HC will be any different than previous Patriot assistance like Mangini and Crennel? All 3 coaches have rode Bilichick coat tails. Josh McDaniels just might equal "Mike Shula". McDaniels may not be able to bring the same magic of SB victories to Denver as was accomplished under Bilichick.

Its safe to say that McDaniels, Crennel, and Mangini does not = Belichick

Now I'd be optimistic of recepricating NE Patriot SB's had Bowlen hired Belichick as HC....but that didn't happen.

Right now, its safe to say that McDaniels is no Belichick!!!

USMCBladerunner
04-06-2009, 04:56 PM
My biggest grievance is against Bowlen. I would have preferred that Josh was not in a position to say yes or no. Bowlen lied about not having a coach/gm again and this is what he gets.

I don't get it. All the Bronco's statements are to the effect that trade talks never materialized to the point that they would have been brought to Bowlen. So he's in the process. McDaniels didn't have blanket approval authority. Certainly you don't think Bowlen needs to be on the listening end of every trade proposition that comes in do you?

lex
04-06-2009, 04:57 PM
See this is another leap of faith you guys are taking. McDaniels said more than once, "The trade was going no where, it was not even far along enough to be presented to Pat (Bowlen)."

That has nothing to do with what I said.

rastaman
04-06-2009, 05:08 PM
I don't get it. All the Bronco's statements are to the effect that trade talks never materialized to the point that they would have been brought to Bowlen. So he's in the process. McDaniels didn't have blanket approval authority. Certainly you don't think Bowlen needs to be on the listening end of every trade proposition that comes in do you?

When it comes to his Franchise QB! Bowlen should be involved. Now if McDaniels was trying to trade a QB of Orton's ability.....no Bowlen does not need to be disturbed.ROFL!

Circle Orange
04-06-2009, 05:20 PM
I agree with lex ... give Orton and Simms this year ... 2010 is the QB draft bonanza anyway.

It's pretty sad how Jay ignored Bowlen's calls ... bush league. I've said all along Jay was being a baby, but I wouldn't have guessed he would dis Pat like that.




That's a sad quote ... sounds like he was still waiting to be wooed.

Once you diss the owner it's OVER, massive ego aside.

Geez, Peter King with loads of late information. He must have eaten his blackberry when this all happened.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 05:26 PM
Once you diss the owner it's OVER, massive ego aside.

Geez, Peter King with loads of late information. He must have eaten his blackberry when this all happened.

Definitely, that was an amazing article.

And you're right ... ignoring Bowlen's calls (plural) was the last straw, even I admit that. The stupid things he said after the trade, "this was not my doing," I think that shows he was surprised, that he didn't really appreciate the gravity of what a trade would be.

cutthemdown
04-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Good points, however what makes you think McDaniels as first time HC will be any different than previous Patriot assistance like Mangini and Crennel? All 3 coaches have rode Bilichick coat tails. Josh McDaniels just might equal "Mike Shula". McDaniels may not be able to bring the same magic of SB victories to Denver as was accomplished under Bilichick.

Its safe to say that McDaniels, Crennel, and Mangini does not = Belichick

Now I'd be optimistic of recepricating NE Patriot SB's had Bowlen hired Belichick as HC....but that didn't happen.

Right now, its safe to say that McDaniels is no Belichick!!!

All true and here is my thinking. Crennel was too old and bitter by the time he got his chance. Plus so fat the players don't relate to him telling them to run faster.

Mangini is obviously gay. I mean you can all tell right? Cmon people MAN GINI, don't you get it?

Wiess after he had his gastric bypass was no longer able to eat the foods that made him smart NE. Mainly his brain worked on fried foods and pizza. Once those were gone, so was his mind.

Mcdaniels though, was young enough to begin the training, his mind was raw and open to being molded, unlike those other guys who wanted to make there own mark, there own style, Mcdaniels embraced the Bellicheck creed and has fully immersed himself in the dark lords ways.

They say the good side takes too long, Here's to our new Sith Master, may he do whatever it takes to win a Superbowl.

baja
04-06-2009, 06:45 PM
That has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lex
My biggest grievance is against Bowlen. I would have preferred that Josh was not in a position to say yes or no. Bowlen lied about not having a coach/gm again and this is what he gets.

baja - See this is another leap of faith you guys are taking. McDaniels said more than once, "The trade was going no where, it was not even far along enough to be presented to Pat (Bowlen)."

Yes it does, McDaniels is not the GM he has input, heavily weighted input, but not the final say.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 06:47 PM
Quote:


Yes it does, McDaniels is not the GM he has input, heavily weighted input, but not the final say.

The Cutlerites are kind of like Cheney. The evidence says what they want it to say.